Shadow of the Fluctuator

[Cire]

In no way do I actually believe this deck to be competitive, but this is my best attempt at making this work. The deck is premised on casting Fluctuator, cycling a bunch of cards and then playing Shadow of the Grave, getting them back and repeating until you win via Labratory Maniac.



4 Cloud of Faeries
1 Laboratory Maniac

4 Fluctuator
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Shadow of the Grave
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Forsake the Wordly
4 Miscalculation
4 Lingering Mirage
2 Rune of Protection: White
2 Rune of Protection: Red
2 Unearth

4 Blasted Landscape
4 Plains
4 Irrigated Farmland
2 Drifting Meadow
2 Remote Island
1 Polluted Mire


The best case scenario of this deck is:

Turn 1 - Land (6 cards in hand)
Turn 2 - Land, cast Fluctuator (5 cards in hand)
Turn 3 - Cycle 3 cards, should get about 2 extra cyclers. Cycle them too. Should get at least one more cycler. Cycle it. You should have cycled about 6 cyclers and have 4 non-cycling cards in hand. Cast Shadow of the Grave. Cycle the 6 cards you discarded. You should get about 3 extra cyclers. Cycle them. Maybe you'll get another cycler. Cycle it. You should have 7 non-cycling cards in your hand at this point and no mana open. Cast a lotus petal into a dark ritual into another Shadow of the grave that you should have drawn at this point. You at this point cycled 10 cards, cycle them all again. You should draw about 6 other cyclers, cycle them and get 3 more cylcers and then another. Cycle them. You should have about 15 non-cycling cards in your hand at this point and 1 mana open. Repeat the process and draw most of your deck. Using the extra mana from the dark rituals, cast another lotus petal into lab maniac and cycle to win. If you need more mana, you can cast unearth into cloud of faeries to generate net 1 mana.

[rufus]

It seems like you're a little overcommitted on using cycling as a discard outlet. How about Careful Study or Zombie Infestation?

[Cire]

It seems like you're a little overcommitted on using cycling as a discard outlet. How about Careful Study or Zombie Infestation?

I mean, those may be other ways to use Shadow of the Grave. . . but either of them is pointless in a Fluctuator deck. Really the only strength of this list is that a Fluctuator is now consistent. Before, cycling could lead to dead ends. Now, with Shadow, that doesn't happen as often.

[mistercakes]

While building this deck for the fastest speed might be a good deck-building exercise, the deck fizzles on itself still entirely too much. Perhaps having an approach that wins consistently on turn 4/5 or so might be better?

How could we approach this from a turn 4/5 point of view instead of a turn 2? It would obviously need some disruption in the maindeck, but I think this could be fun to have a "competitive" tier 2.5 deck. It could also be used to generate a lot of card advantage instead of going for the instant win. Maybe running 3-4 loam, +3-4 of this new card, +4 fluctuator.

Zvi's deck that won the PT back in Urza's block didn't really go off until turn 4, and that was the most successful fluctuator list to date.

[bruizar]

Rune of Protection is rather nice. I would also add the blue one to get rid of delver, true name nemesis and leovold damage

[mistercakes]

Some cards that could be useful are Thran Turbine and Braid of Fire to help generate some mana for free cycling when you don't draw fluctuator. Not sure how good they would be, I like the first one as it helps a bit.

[scaryrawr]

Isn't this an update to "Mr. Toad's Wild Ride"? Is the name change from the removal of Bloated Toad?

[Cire]

Isn't this an update to "Mr. Toad's Wild Ride"? Is the name change from the removal of Bloated Toad?

Never heard of it, but it's not that this deck is that original of an idea. It's a fluctuator deck, with shadow of the grave added.

---

@ bruizar: I like the idea of adding more runes just to be annoying until you can combo out.

@ mistercakes: Currently, it is more of a turn 3 combo than a turn 2. But I agree, this deck can afford to slow down and include more protection.

Honestly, it's more of a mathematical problem than a deck.

Let's say we aim for a turn 4 win. That would mean that you're casting Fluctuator turn 3 and then turn 4 cycling into Shadow, casting Shadow, and then hopefully cycling into mana and another shadow, repeat until you win. How many cyclers do you need?

[rufus]

...
Let's say we aim for a turn 4 win. That would mean that you're casting Fluctuator turn 3 and then turn 4 cycling into Shadow, casting Shadow, and then hopefully cycling into mana and another shadow, repeat until you win. How many cyclers do you need?

On average, you'd need to dig through 60/4=15 cards to find the next shadow, right?

Now, if r=(cyclers)/(total cards) then then you want 15/11 <= r /(1-r) for the 11 cards you start with to lead to 15 cyclers.

So r>=15/26 which works out to 35 or more cyclers.

That's a bit low, since you really expect to have to get to card 30 in order to hit the second shadow, then

r>=19/30 so 38 or more cyclers.

You can probably improve that a little with tutor effects or something like Noxious Revival.

[Cire]

On average, you'd need to dig through 60/4=15 cards to find the next shadow, right?

Now, if r=(cyclers)/(total cards) then then you want 15/11 <= r /(1-r) for the 11 cards you start with to lead to 15 cyclers.

So r>=15/26 which works out to 35 or more cyclers.

That's a bit low, since you really expect to have to get to card 30 in order to hit the second shadow, then

r>=19/30 so 38 or more cyclers.

You can probably improve that a little with tutor effects or something like Noxious Revival.

Lets say you need to get to card 30 to get the 2nd Shadow, and you drew 10 cards, by turn 4, you'll need 20 cyclers. To get to 20 cyclers, that would be 2(X+Y)+Z = 20, where X is how many cycler's in your hand prior to starting cycling, Y is how many cyclers you drew from the X cyclers, X and Y are doubled due to Shadow, and Z is how many cyclers you drew from the X+Y cards after they were returned from being cycled. Each of them are based on percentages right. I.e, each of they is based on Cylers in the deck/Cards in the Deck. With A equaling Cyclers in the Deck, and without fancy geometric math in the above equation: X=10A/60, Y=XA/60 or A^2/360, and Z= 2(X+Y))A/60) or A((A/6)+(A^2/360))/30. All the way down it would look like: 2((10A/60)+(A^2/360))+ (A((A/6)+(A^2/360))/30)=20. Solving for A, I got that we only need about 27.934 cyclers.

What do you think? That checks out?

[filln]

Isn't this an update to "Mr. Toad's Wild Ride"? Is the name change from the removal of Bloated Toad?

Agreed that it would be a shame to get rid of one of the best named decks in Legacy.

[rufus]

... X and Y are doubled due to Shadow...

What do you think? That checks out?

Ah, right, forgot about doubling up with the first shadow.

OK, so supposing you don't dig until the fluctuator turn, and you see D cards initially, and you don't play any of the cyclers.

On the first run you get to card D/(1-r) and want to go at least 15 deep to find the first shadow, so

D(1/1-r)>15

For D=10 that works out to r>1/3 so 20 cyclers. That's pretty reasonable.

The second run gets you D(1/1-r) + Dr(1/1-r)^2 deep and you want the total be bigger than 30.

D/(1-r) + Dr/(1-r)^2 > 30
...
r > 1 - sqrt(D/30)

For D=10 that's around 25.35.

That's surprisingly low, but agrees with your numbers. Those are both only ~0.65 chances so you really want the number of cyclers to be bigger though.

[Cire]

I agree it is way lower than I thought it would be, and while it's not 100% it does leave us wiggle room. For example, lets say assuming that we want the deck to go off turn 4, the following configuration should work:

20 Land Cyclers
4 Blasted Landscape

4 Cycling Cards
4 Fluctuator
4 Shadow of the Grave
3 Lotus Petal
3 Enlightened tutor
3 Dark Ritual
1 Laboratory Maniac

Taken into account is the fact that by turn 3 we either want a Fluctuator in hand or Enlightened in hand turn 2, and assuming 4 mana open turn 4 for the combo to work we need to be able to generate an additional 4BBU (2BB for the rest of the shadow of the graves and 2U for the Laboratory Maniac. 3 Petals and 3 Dark Rituals should be enough for that (with an additional mana in case we only had 3 mana open to start with)).

That leaves us with 14 open spots. We can either include more cycling for more consistency or start including in discard and other protection cards.

[rufus]

...

Taken into account is the fact that by turn 3 we either want a Fluctuator in hand or Enlightened in hand turn 2, and assuming 4 mana open turn 4 for the combo to work we need to be able to generate an additional 4BBU (2BB for the rest of the shadow of the graves and 2U for the Laboratory Maniac. 3 Petals and 3 Dark Rituals should be enough for that (with an additional mana in case we only had 3 mana open to start with)).

That leaves us with 14 open spots. We can either include more cycling for more consistency or start including in discard and other protection cards.

I think protection is mandatory. If fluctuator doesn't stick around or hit the table the deck is pretty hosed.

I'm curious about how good the land cyclers like Sanctum Plowbeast are in a deck like this, now that they can fetch cycling lands. Similarly, Summoner's Pact can fetch desirable stuff, though it does tend to make the combo turn an 'all-in' proposition.

[Jander78]

I think protection is mandatory. If fluctuator doesn't stick around or hit the table the deck is pretty hosed.

I'm curious about how good the land cyclers like Sanctum Plowbeast are in a deck like this, now that they can fetch cycling lands. Similarly, Summoner's Pact can fetch desirable stuff, though it does tend to make the combo turn an 'all-in' proposition.
Good call on the land cyclers. Getting two cyclers for the cost of one. I'd love to see Eternal Dragon make a comeback! I don't see how this deck can do anything without Fluctuator on the table, so I'd agree that it needs much more protection.

A list for the lazy: http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&text=|[plainscycling]|[islandcycling]|[mountaincycling]|[forestcycling]|[swampcycling]

[Barook]

I think protection is mandatory. If fluctuator doesn't stick around or hit the table the deck is pretty hosed.

I'm curious about how good the land cyclers like Sanctum Plowbeast are in a deck like this, now that they can fetch cycling lands. Similarly, Summoner's Pact can fetch desirable stuff, though it does tend to make the combo turn an 'all-in' proposition.
Landcycling sounds like a great way to increase consistency since they can fetch you a guaranteed cycler.

With the high amount of CITP lands and due the synergy with Shadow of the Grave, maybe Mox Diamond might be an option?

[Cire]

Land Cyclers are a great idea - they help, but not that much, they will only reduce variance in the combo the same amount as a fetchland in a regular combo deck (actually twice as much due to being returned due to SOTG).

Additionally, a slight addendum to my math. Warning, I had fun just writing variables and stuff: to get to 20 cyclers, that would be Q+2(X+Y)+Z = 20, where Q is how many cyclers you used prior to the turn you decided to go off X is how many cycler's in your hand prior to starting cycling, Y is how many cyclers you drew from the X cyclers, X and Y are doubled due to Shadow, Z is how many cyclers you drew from the X+Y cards after they were returned from being cycled. Q would be 9A/60 (based on my previous post, and assuming you use each such cycler), and X would be (((10-Q)A/60)+(QA/60)) which should miraculously simply to A/6. So the final equaltion should be: (9A/60)+2((A/6)+(A^2/360))+((A^2/200)+(A^3/10800))=20. Solving for A would lead to a final answer of about 24.892. Which is even lower than the previous answer!

Again, check my math and assumptions, but it seems that you can get away with cycling prior to going off, and that doing so actually helps you get to card 30? Edit: I feel that one of my assumptions MUST be wrong, since this doesn't really make sense intuitively.

If the above checks out, that allows us to free up 3 more spots in the deck and/or replace some cycle lands with other lands and run more landcyclers to reduce variance.

[Michael Keller]

Serum Powder may be a wise choice for a deck like this. The main engine is Fluctuator itself, so you need to be able to find it first without destroying your keeps. Bazaar in Vintage - same thing.

That to me would be more important than cycling X number of cards down and drawing one.

[Cire]

Serum Powder may be a wise choice for a deck like this. The main engine is Fluctuator itself, so you need to be able to find it first without destroying your keeps. Bazaar in Vintage - same thing.

That to me would be more important than cycling X number of cards down and drawing one.

With cycling and enlightened tutor I would think you have a good chance of getting fluctuator out by turn 3 without resorting to Serum Powder.

[rufus]

...
Again, check my math and assumptions, but it seems that you can get away with cycling prior to going off, and that doing so actually helps you get to card 30? Edit: I feel that one of my assumptions MUST be wrong, since this doesn't really make sense intuitively.
...

This one doesn't make sense to me. I don't understand what "to get to 20 cards" means or what Q is supposed to represent.

As it stands, I'm sure the cycler counts are too low because we're not accounting for the fact that the lands are cyclers that get played out and that E-tutor cuts into the card count.

For example, let's say that you go off on turn 3 on the play with 2 lands in play having cast E-tutor once. Then the expected number of starting cyclers in hand is

(9 (total cards drawn) -1 (e-tutor))*r - 2 = (8r-2)

Now, you want to start with (8r-2) cyclers and draw at least 6 more cards to get to 15 and a decent chance at seeing a shadows. (E-tutor enriches the deck a little, but not significantly at this point)

(8r-2)/(1-r) > 6
..
r> 8 / 14

60*r>34.28...

and to get to 40 you'll want to get 21 cards deeper

(8r-2)/((1-r)^2) > 21
...
r > 0.623...

60*r>37.38...

[Cire]

@Rufus. That's a good point, totally forgot that the lands we are playing ARE the cyclers.

Q in my equation, as I noted, referred to cyclers you cycled prior to the turn "you go off". Getting to 20 cards was in reference to the fact that by turn 4 when you're going off, you need to see at least 30 cards to get 2 shadows, and that you already drew 10. I mean if we want to account for everything, then the equation should be something like:

(Cycle Lands Played)+(Cycle Cards Cycled Prior to Going off)+2(Cycle Cards Cycled Turn you go off + Cycle Cards you drew into and cycled the turn you go off)+(Cycle Cards you drew into and Cycled after casting Shadows)=24 (20 cards needed to be drawn and 4 lands that need to be played)

This doesn't take into account that cycling brings down the cards in the deck or Landcycling which brings down the cards in the deck, but more specifically brings down the number of cyclers in the deck.

[rufus]

...
Q in my equation, as I noted, referred to cyclers you cycled prior to the turn "you go off".


OK, then I don't follow the "Q=9A/60" argument. Suppose (for example) that you have 20 cyclers (which is clearly too low) then you'd have to cycle 3 of them by turn 3 which is not plausible.

... I'm pretty comfortable with 38 cyclers as a first target.

How do we feel about using Land Grant, landcyclers, and a small number of duals to increase the chance of untapped lands?
EDIT: This is probably not the best idea - either Land Grant or untapped duals could make sense though.

[Cire]

OK, then I don't follow the "Q=9A/60" argument. Suppose (for example) that you have 20 cyclers (which is clearly too low) then you'd have to cycle 3 of them by turn 3 which is not plausible.

Yeah, in hindsight cyclers you cycled prior to the turn "you go off" can only ever be 1. Let's say you're playing enough ETB untapped lands to play 1 of them by turn 4 and you need to play Fluctuator turn 3. That means you could only ever cycle out of turn on turn 2, and then only once really.

Edit:

Okay - let's forget about the math for a second. Assuming the combo works and doesn't fizzle and without paying attention to the numbers of the deck, what would be the optimal play for the first 4 turns?

For the sake of not sucking, I'm going to assume that the very first land you cast doesn't ETBT, so:

Turn 1: Non-ETBT Land (Black AND White Producing, so Blasted Landscape doesn't count) - Discard Spell and/or Kill (?)
Turn 2: ETBT Land - Enlightened tutor if no Fluctuator in hand or Discard Spell and/or Kill
Turn 3: ETBT Land - Fluctuator
Turn 4: Non-ETBT Land or Accel - "Go Off"

So . . . let's for a second just assume my math under post 10 holds up, and we only need 28 cyclers for the combo, the requirements of the deck thus far would be:

28 Cyclers
11 Discard/Kill Spells
9 B/W Non-ETBT Lands/Accel
3 Other Non-ETBT Lands/Accel
24 Lands

So doubling down on clyclers/lands and accel and non-ETBT lands, I have the following:

12 Cycle Lands
5 B/W duals
4 Blasted Landscape
4 Lotus Petal

12 Cycling Cards
11 Discard/Kill Spells
4 Fluctuator
4 Shadow of the Grave
4 Enlightened tutor
3 Dark Ritual
1 Laboratory Maniac

That would be 64 cards. . . the problem now is what to remove with the consideration that the deck, still, probably needs even more cyclers.

[rufus]

On the theme of cycling utility, I like Cloud of Faeries/Unearth as an alternative or supplement to Dark Ritual, though it does put a little extra stress on the mana base.



Mox Diamond might be an option?


Lotus petal is better- you're not going to be untapping, and the lands are valuable as cyclers.

[rufus]

...
For the sake of not sucking
...

You sure that option is available with this plan?

[Cire]

You sure that option is available with this plan?

Not really - this, as noted in the very first line of this thread, is not going to be competitive. But I feel the point of this exercise is to make a good faith effort to make it as good as possible. "Sucking" in this case can be defined as "not even trying to shore up this deck's glaring weaknesses"

Also, Cloud of Faeries/Unearth doesn't add mana, it just mana fixes for B.

[rufus]

...

Also, Cloud of Faeries/Unearth doesn't add mana, it just mana fixes for B.

You pay :B: for unearth, and then get to untap up to 2 lands.

[Cire]

You pay :B: for unearth, and then get to untap up to 2 lands.

Lol, forgot that it returns to play. So . . . assuming that you have 4 mana open when you start to combo off you need to generate exactly 4BBU additional mana to win. So far the list above has 4 lotus petal and 3 Dark rituals. That is XXXBBBBBBB in potential mana, so XXB more mana than is strictly required. We can probably replace 1 lotus petal and 1 Dark ritual with 1 unearth and 1 cloud of faeries. I don't know if that is a smart move though, since they are essentially a combo and useless without the other (in terms of generating mana), and the lotus petal also doubles up as a turn 1 B/W Non-ETBT Lands/Accel

[rufus]

Lol, forgot that it returns to play. So . . . assuming that you have 4 mana open when you start to combo off you need to generate exactly 4BBU additional mana to win. So far the list above has 4 lotus petal and 3 Dark rituals. That is XXXBBBBBBB in potential mana, so XXB more mana than is strictly required. We can probably replace 1 lotus petal and 1 Dark ritual with 1 unearth and 1 cloud of faeries. I don't know if that is a smart move though, since they are essentially a combo and useless without the other (in terms of generating mana), and the lotus petal also doubles up as a turn 1 B/W Non-ETBT Lands/Accel

I was thinking more like -1 Dark Ritual and 2x each Cloud & Unearth in the pile of cyclers.

[rufus]

I wonder how hard it is to set up Unearthing the Laboratory Maniac. The only free discard outlets I could find are Lion's Eye Diamond and Foil.

[Wobbles The Goose]

4 Blasted Landscape
4 Fetid Pools
4 Canyon Slough
4 Polluted Mire

4 Lotus Petal
2 Mox Diamond
4 Fluctuator
4 Songs of the Damned
2 Spoils of the Vault
4 Shadow of the Grave

4 Archfiend of Ifnir
4 Twisted Abomination
4 Viscera Dragger
4 Wander in Death
4 Unburden
4 Street Wraith

SB:
7 Swamp
4 Unmask
4 Hymn to Tourach

Once you start to combo, Songs give you way more mana than ritual. At that point you can cycle through your deck and eventually just hardcast Unburdens and Archfiends.

[Poron]

the only card you might want to fetch with Spoils is Fluctuator.

Why not just Enlightened Tutor?

SofV lowers you 12 life point on average with a 48-50 cards deck.

[Wobbles The Goose]

I don't think the mana base can support enlightened tutor. There's no scrubland cycler, and you already need the black for Shadows and Songs. If you're assuming that you can combo of when you play the fluctuator, you might just have to take the ~12. It's also not dead when comboing as it can find a Shadow or Song as needed, especially when you have half a deck.

That said, they're clearly the weakest slots in the deck. I could see swamps over a Spoils, or some combination of gamble and badland. It's also possible the deck wants fewer Songs, although they seem important enough to warrant 4

[Poron]

when you need to draw a card to win it's always 4 of.

consider discard and counters.
Gamble is interesting here for the sinergy with Shadow, but anyway: it's a "grave based deck" that will never have the consistency of UB reanimator with SnT and Entomb and it scoops to Spell Snare and Leyline of the Void where Reanimate just starts cantripping into SnT Griselbrand..

[rufus]

What about something like Lim-Dul's Vault? Muddle the Mixture is clearly too slow, but maybe there are other viable options.

[Purple Blood]

I've been slightly obsessed with Fluctuator for the better part of two decades so I'm geeking out on this thread. Here's my two or three cents:

1. This deck has to have a way to protector Fluctuator. Period. Without Fluctuator this is a pile of crap. Which leads me to number 2...
2. This deck has to have a way to Tutor for Fluctuator.

I think the best way to accomplished this is through Chalice of the Void and Force of Will. This means we need to play primarily blue cyclers and sol lands. It also means we'd need to replace our one drops. Songs of the Damned and Enlightened Tutor out and Cabal Ritual and Fabricate in.

My initial list looks like this:

Enablers/Wincon

4 Fluctuator
4 Fabricate
4 Shadow of the Grave
1 Laboratory Maniac

Protection

4 Force of Will
4 Chalice of the Void

Cycling

4 Expunge
4 Miscalculation
4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Unearth
4 Archfiend of Ifnir

Mana Sources

4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal

4 Fetid Pools
4 Blasted Landscape
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
2 Underground Sea
2 Polluted Delta

The ideal play is first turn Tomb --> CotV on one. Second turn ---> Delta fetching Sea; Fluctuator; cycle finding at least one Petal one Shadow of the Grave, and one FoW (probably already have some of this in the opening hand); once you have that you can Ritual off the petal and one land and cast Shadow of the Grave drawing your whole deck then Petal again for the blue to cast Lab Maniac and the game ends. All the while you likely have multiple FoWs to protect the combo and you're protected by CotV.

The problem of course is that's 67 cards and only 28 cyclers. I'd prefer to make that number closer to 60/30. What 7 cards to cut?

[Brushwagg]

Well I no longer play Legacy, but the new set with Shadow of the Grave Seems like fun. I was thinking of deck ideas. A few cards I considered.

Gitaxian Probe. "Free" cycler.
Reaping the Graves. It costs three, but it can act as Shadows 4 and 5 in a creature heavy cycle deck. It would require you to run Cabal Ritual I think.
Lim-Dûl's Vault If you play Blue, finds what you need.

[rufus]

Well I no longer play Legacy, but the new set with Shadow of the Grave Seems like fun. I was thinking of deck ideas. A few cards I considered.

Gitaxian Probe. "Free" cycler.
Reaping the Graves. It costs three, but it can act as Shadows 4 and 5 in a creature heavy cycle deck. It would require you to run [Cabal Ritual[/cards] I think.
Lim-Dûl's Vault If you play Blue, finds what you need.

Street Wraith is a better 'free' cycler in this deck. (Though you could obviously slot both into the deck.)

Reaping the Graves is challenging - most of the cyclers are going to be lands, not creatures. The extra mana cost is also a big deal.

[rufus]

If you want to cycle creature cards, Restless Dreams seems better than reaping the graves by virtue of costing less to cast, though it still has mana cost issues...

Pulling 3 cyclers would be pretty spectacular value. You'd want at least 12 - probably closer to 15-16 cycling creatures to run. There is a decent suite available.

Having a discard outlet also means that Unearth becomes a way to get the Laboratory Maniac into play so you can go off with just black mana, and running lots of creatures makes Songs of the Damned more potent.

Edit; It still seems like the biggest hurdle is going to be getting fluctuator onto the field in the first place.

[Barry Egan]

I've been working on this deck for about a week before reading this thread, so here is what I've found so far:

Going off ASAP is preferable to limit their interaction. Turn one is absolutely possible by Petal+Ritual+Fluctuator->Shadow (I've done it many times), but you need to play the least amount of non-cyclers to not fizzle. My builds have relied on not playing tutors and just mulligaining to fluctuator, though it's very hard to go off with only 1-2 cycle cards in hand, so I've been using Treasure Find to restock my hand while drawing into combo peices. This means you want to play as many as 40 lands to help Treasure Find do the job. This means no Songs of the Damned, but really you don't need it. I haven't tried Laboratory Maniac because I didn't think about Unearth, but Tendrils of Agony has been working just fine unless they have anti-storm hate. I board into Sphinx's Tutelage as my win con if I expect hate, and usually works unless you've cycled through 40+ cards before playing it. I briefly tried Seimic Assault as my win con, because you don't need fluctuator (just use Seismic 5 times in one turn, cast Shadow, repeat) but RRR cost is rough though they might be a way to make it work.

If you want to slow the deck down and add protection I have a few suggestions as well. Blue cyclers (Miscalcution, Recind, Cloud of Faeries) + Force of Will is good. You can also use Daze with the new cycle lands because they have basic land types which has the added benefit of returning a cycle land to your hand. Inuition might be the best tutor if you're willing to spend 3 mana because it gets the redundant copies of Fluctuator out of your deck and doesn't have the card disadvantage of Enlightened Tutor or require white mana.

I've also messed around with Cascading into Flucutaor as the only possibility, but that means no Shadow of the Grave which is too high a cost.

[Cire]

Here is the issue with going off as fast as possible - Spanish Inquisition, Oops all Spells and Belcher does so more consistently and faster. In order for this deck to be considered "playable" it has to be better in someway than other existing decks. The best I can do with my lists is get it to be a consistent turn 4 combo with 10 proactive "protection" spells (aka - discard or creature kill). Is that better than existing combo decks? Probably not. Is there a chart tracking the speed, consistency and protection of legacy combo decks? If there is - then we can pick a goal and try to do something better than other combo decks.

[rufus]

Here is the issue with going off as fast as possible - Spanish Inquisition, Oops all Spells and Belcher does so more consistently and faster...

Well, if it works well enough to be a budget option, that might be OK too.

[Cire]

Well, if it works well enough to be a budget option, that might be OK too.

Ha, sure - would love to see a chart of combo decks on those 4 metrics: speed, consistency, protection & price :tongue:

[rufus]

Ha, sure - would love to see a chart of combo decks on those 4 metrics: speed, consistency, protection & price :tongue:

Yeah, though I think that pricy stuff like Lion's Eye Diamond could find a place in the deck, so I'm not 100% on the budget status.

Edit @Barry Egan
...not that it matters too much, but is there a particular reason to play Treasured Find instead of Regrowth?

[gibsonjunkie]

Hi, I just got absolutely demolished by this deck on MTGO, and I just wanted to say this idea is the shit. Definitely going to proxy it up for our legacy night this week.

[rufus]

I'm trying to work out what a 'restless dreams' list might look like, but this seems terrible:

Recyclers

4 Shadow of the Grave
2 Restless Dreams


Fluctuator and friends

4 Fluctuator
4 Enlightened Tutor


Win Con

1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Sphinx's Tutelage


Cycling Package

4 Unearth
4 Cloud of Faeries
3 Jhessian Zombies
1 Sanctum Plowbeast
4 Bloated Toad
4 Blasted Landscape
1 Irrigated Farmland
1 Fetid Pools


Mana (+ cycling lands)

2 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Mox Diamond
4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Swamp


Sideboard?

Rescind
Force of Will
Cabal Therapy
...


It's really hard to fit in a critical mass of cyclers, protection, and ways to find fluctuator.

The mana base can't support Rescind. It's really tempting to look for a way to work sol lands in.

Maybe the deck ought to run some kind of Sandbar Merfolk/Wild Dogs/Cabal Therapy package.

[gibsonjunkie]

I got killed by Tendrils of Agony earlier. I died on turns 2 and then on turn 1. Granted, I was playing burn so I wouldn't have had Force of Will but still. I wonder about an inclusion of like Noxious Revival or something like that to help fight disruption. I was also going to suggest Gitaxian Probe as another "free" cycler.

[mistercakes]

Saw an interesting version on reddit. Goldfished a few and after changing one polluted Mire for a swamp, the list is the best one so far.

: Shadow of the Fluctuator 4 Blasted Landscape 4 Fetid Pools 4 Canyon Slough 4 Polluted Mire (would recommend 3 Mire 1 swamp, or a dual if you want some colored sb cards)

4 Lotus Petal 2 Mox Diamond 4 Fluctuator 4 Songs of the Damned 2 Spoils of the Vault 4 Shadow of the Grave

4 Archfiend of Ifnir 4 Twisted Abomination 4 Viscera Dragger 4 Wander in Death 4 Unburden 4 Street Wraith

SB: 7 Swamp 4 Unmask 4 Hymn to Tourach

This guy's version is pretty smart. It won't kill the turn you go off, but you will end the turn with probably 12 damage, and another 10+ on the board with your opponents having no creatures in play or cards in hand.


Final edit, I see it's wobbles list. Nice job.

[Cire]

@mistercakes, how does that version deal damage? Just hardcasting Archfiends seems . . . not great?

Edit - but it could be a good backup plan? I don't know if 15 cycling creatures support the Songs, but I'll play around with the numbers. What about the following list (all black cycling creatures, so you can cast them off songs if you really need to and have no better option):


4 Marsh flats
4 Blasted Landscape
3 Irrigated Farmland
3 Fetid Pools
3 Scattered Groves
3 Canyon Slough
1 Scrubland

4 Lotus Petal
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Fluctuator
4 Shadow of the Grave
4 Enlightened tutor
3 Songs of the Damned

4 Viscera Dragger
4 Wasteland Scorpion
4 Archfiend of Ifnir
3 Twisted Abomination
1 Laboratory Maniac


On a non-fluctuator but cycling related note - with no terminus in the metagame, maybe a living death legacy port may be viable?

[rufus]

...

On a non-fluctuator but cycling related note - with no terminus in the metagame, maybe a living death legacy port may be viable?

Cascade got better with the change in split card rules too. There's an old thread full of bad ideas somewhere.

[Cire]

Tested my list from post #49 - it is a reliable turn 4 combo and if you want to rush out an Archfiend turn 3 you can do that too and it does a great job of controlling the board - so for creature based decks I would say getting a fluctuator out and getting an Archfiend out at the same time is basically a win (not really - i mean a simple STP can still beat you, buuuuttt... ) . So that's an improvement. I do want at least 2 more discard and 2 more removal - but the deck is way too tight. There might be room by taking out a Twisted Abomination or two, but that's about it. Additionally, I am seeing lots more Blood Moons and Chalices which both take out our tutor - don't really know what to do about that.

[mistercakes]

i agree that thoughtseize or some other discard spell should be in the maindeck. if you are running enlightened tutor, you should definitely have street wraith over the scorpion, as it gives you an instant speed draw after casting tutor if you need to main phase tutor.

the lab man is too much of a dead card, and can also trip you up while cycling. i think maybe cabal therapy could be better than thoughtseize, at least some combination could be better. this is given that you can unearth your guys and flashback. unmask is also an option, since it can allow you to jam out a fluctuator the same turn if need be.

i'll continue goldfishing to get a better understanding of the deck, but i'm pretty sure if you pass the turn with close to the lethal, or lethal on the board, and they have no hand + creatures in play...i feel like this is still good enough given the consistency is mostly still there.

// 60 Maindeck
// 8 Artifact
4 Lotus Petal
4 Fluctuator

// 16 Creature
4 Archfiend of Ifnir
4 Twisted Abomination
4 Viscera Dragger
4 Street Wraith

// 10 Instant
4 Songs of the Damned
2 Spoils of the Vault
4 Shadow of the Grave

// 16 Land
4 Fetid Pools
4 Canyon Slough
3 Polluted Mire
4 Blasted Landscape
1 Swamp

// 10 Sorcery
4 Wander in Death
2 Unburden
2 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy

thran turbine could also be strong here, it only nets you a card per turn, but it can still dig a bit deeper for some of the matchups that give you more time. haven't tested yet, but might be worth trying.

[Purple Blood]

Here's the list I've been testing.

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Fetid Pool
4 Underground Sea
2 Remote Island
2 Polluted Mire

4 Lotus Petal
4 Fluctuator
3 Fabricate/Lim Dul's Vault/Spoils of the Vault (so far I like Spoils the most because of 1 cmc and only needing black)
4 Shadow of the Grave
3 Songs of the Damned (also tested 4 but 3 seems right)
2 Tolarian Winds
1 Lab Maniac

19 cyclers (15 creatures, 4 unearth)


I've gotten a bunch of turn one and two goldfish wins. T1 -> Ancient Tomb -> Fluctuator -> Cycle -> Petal -> Songs -> Shadow -> Draw your deck -> few different ways to win from there, simplest being cast another Songs and petal for blue to cast Maniac.

Tolarian Winds has been an all-star. Midway through testing I realized I absolutely needed at least two copies in the deck because I'd get to that point where I had a dead hand of non-cyclers. With Tolarian Winds you can basically guarantee you will draw your deck if you play it on top of a Shadow on the stack. It lets you lower the total number of cyclers and play sol lands reliably. It's also nice because it can put Maniac in your graveyard for you to unearth later. And it's a quasi-tutor for when you don't have Fluctuator.

I feel like FoW needs to be in the deck or in the 75 at the very least to operate as a combo protector and maybe a few copies of Mox Diamond to increase speed further. I should probably cut something for Duress as well to make opponents discard FoW.

Am I crazy to think this is a real deck? I'm thinking of actually bringing this abomination to the weekly Legacy free play next week :laugh:

[mistercakes]

is 27 cyclers enough to go for turn 1 kills? seems a bit risky, but i'll try goldfishing with your list. probably does need some disruption, discard or counter.

[Purple Blood]

is 27 cyclers enough to go for turn 1 kills? seems a bit risky, but i'll try goldfishing with your list. probably does need some disruption, discard or counter.

It's an extremely rough and fluctuating (pardon the pun :laugh:) list right now. Thinking of cutting two seas for two additional cyclers. I need to go re-read some of the math that was done earlier in the thread. From testing it feels like a minimum of 30 is where you want to be but I really don't know what to cut.

[mistercakes]

if you're going for turn 1 and tomb/city is enabling that, i agree that underground sea should definitely be some number of cyclers. are you running cloud of faeries? this makes a lot of sense with the sol lands. (you would be aiming for a turn 2-3 though...then you really need disruption)

[Cire]

Am I crazy to think this is a real deck? I'm thinking of actually bringing this abomination to the weekly Legacy free play next week :laugh:

"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."




the lab man is too much of a dead card, and can also trip you up while cycling.

I think a single space in the deck to allow you to unconditionally win is completely worth it.



is 27 cyclers enough to go for turn 1 kills?


using my terrible math from the first page - you would need around 38 cyclers to hope to go off turn 1 - However, be aware that doesn't take into account that unlike going the turn after you cast fluctuator, you actually need to find cards to be able to cast your first Shadows.

[Purple Blood]

Yea, I'm using Cloud Fairies. The untapping doesn't really help too much though. I don't think I've hard casted it before and colorless mana isn't that important. But it's a corner case that would make it better than any other cyclers. If I include Cabal Therapy in the list then there's even more upside to running them.

One thing to consider about the cycling math is that a lot of your non cyclers are enablers for more cycling (e.g. petal, winds, shadow, and songs) if you draw into these non cyclers you WILL draw your whole deck if you can make the appropriate mana.

That being said I'm looking to up the cyclers to at least 30. I just don't know what to cut because I also need to make room for disruption. I suppose the seas are a place to start.

I think the sideboard should include FoW, Thoughtseize, and possibly Toxic Deluge. The problem is the list is so tight that you almost cannot sideboard anything without diluting the deck. Seems like there will need to be max four disruption slots that can be flexed out in the sideboard. Also deciding if I like Cabal Therapy or Duress more.

[rufus]

....

using my terrible math from the first page - you would need around 38 cyclers to hope to go off turn 1 - However, be aware that doesn't take into account that unlike going the turn after you cast fluctuator, you actually need to find cards to be able to cast your first Shadows.

Running Tolarian Winds or Restless Dreams can make a big difference.


...
Tolarian Winds has been an all-star. Midway through testing I realized I absolutely needed at least two copies in the deck because I'd get to that point where I had a dead hand of non-cyclers. ...


Have you considered Restless Dreams?

[Cire]

Running Tolarian Winds or Restless Dreams can make a big difference.

Do they? They seem to simply be Shadows 5 through whatever. Using my math lets see how many cyclers it takes the place of. I'll be using the turn 4 formula I used in post 9.

The formula was: 2((10X/60)+(X^2/360))+ (X((X/6)+(X^2/360))/30)=20 (the assumptions being that you're running only 4 Shadows, going off turn 4, are going off the turn after you casted fluctuator, and didn't cycle anything prior to the turn you go off). X solved for about 27.934 cyclers. The number 20 at the end of the formula was the assumption that we needed to get to card "30" in order to see 2 Shadows. Essentially the side after the equal sign can be expressed as 2(60/Y)-10 where Y is how many "Shadows" you are playing.

If you're playing 2 Tolarian Winds/Restless Dreams, going under the assumptions above you would probably need 18 cylcers only (see the following: (2((10X/60)+(X^2/360))+ (X((X/6)+(X^2/360))/30)=2(60/6)-10)). However, this doesn't take into account the fact that unlike digging 20 deep you are only digging 10 dead. That means that you are getting half of the mana generators (dark ritual/lotus petals) that you would need to actually cast that second "shadows".

But, it is a good idea - since it does seem that running Tolarian Winds/Restless Dreams does allow you to reduce your cycler count (I mean I don't think that each of the "Shadows" counts as 5 "cylcers" but let me be generous and say they each take the place of two or 2.5 cylcers?)

----

Edit: Another question is how many "creature" cyclers you need to play AND how many non Cyling cards you need to play for a Restless dreams to act a bit like a Shadow of the Grave assuming that Shadow of the Grave is ALSO being run in that deck. Shadow of the Graves draws the following amount of cards (turn 4): 2((10X/60)+(X^2/360)) where X is how many cyclers you are playing in your deck. Restless Dreams, on turn 4 draws: cards equal to the lower amount of either non-cycling cards in your hand or the amount of creatures you cycled. Thus lets say you want to run 24 cyclers, restless dreamswill never be as good as Shadows unless those cyclers are all creatures (or you run ADDITIONAL creature cylcers).

Thus, instead of treating it as a Shadows, you should treat it as a draw spell where the amounts of cards it draws it the equal to the lowest amount of either non-cycling cards or creatures already cycled after you began cycling on turn 4.

Using the number 24 (which I picked at random), and half of those are creatures, that means that after you started cycling on turn 4 you cylced at least 2.8 creatures (see: ((10(24)/60)+((24)^2/360))/2) - round that up to 3. . . which makes Restless dreams sort of like an ancestral recall - which is still good - but exactly half as good as Shadows. Under that theory, figuring out how many total cyclers to run if you are running Restless dreams is slightly different since we used 2(60/6)-10) to express how many "shadows" we are running - but sicne Restless dreams is about 1/2 a shadow, that should be 2(60/5)-10)) which would get us to the fact that we need about 22.315 cylcers. Rounding up that is 23 which means that our assumption (that 1 restless dreams can take the place of 2.5 cylcers, each) is around correct (assuming that you are running at least 12 creature cyclers out of those 23 cycler cards)

[rufus]

Yeah, restless dreams is a sort of half-price - half-power shadows. It also works as a discard outlet for lab maniac, and restless dreams doesn't care when the creatures were discarded, so you get better fizzle recovery.

[NastyNick]

Hi, I just got absolutely demolished by this deck on MTGO, and I just wanted to say this idea is the shit. Definitely going to proxy it up for our legacy night this week.

Hey Gibsonjunkie that was me that directed you towards this form. I've been playing it a lot lately and did some changes from Barry Egan's list. I keep going back an forth on either Lab Maniac or Tendrils as a only 1 condition win card. As of today, here is the decklist that I've been playing on MTGO.

4 Blasted Landscape
4 Canyon Slough
4 Fetid Pools
4 Irrigated Farmland
4 Polluted Mire
4 Remote Isle
3 Sheltered Thicket
4 Lotus Petal
2 Mox Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
1 Unearth
2 Noxious Revival
1 Lab Maniac
2 Cloud of Faeries
4 Miscalculation
4 Shadow of the Grave
4 Fluctuator
4 Rescind
1 Swat

The one thing that frustrates me about the deck is, its consistency and sometimes just drawing dead cards. I've been racking my brain to find something that improves the consistency of the deck, doesnt cost mana and isnt a dead draw when you're trying to go off. I added 2 Noxious Revival to the deck and to me its been amazing. Its gotten me out of situations like having 1 black mana but not enough to cast Shadows of the Grave while I have cyclers in my hand and a Dark Ritual in the graveyard. Its also allowed me to put Fluctuator back on top of my library if it got countered / hit with an abrupt decay / Thoughtseized etc etc. Its also not a dead draw because you can use it to guarantee a cycler is on top of your deck if you're trying to go off.

[Purple Blood]

Do they? They seem to simply be Shadows 5 through whatever.

I don't really look at it as a Shadow it plays a slightly different role and its bonkers in combination with Shadow. If you have a dead hand of 5+ non-cycling cards (which is quite common in my testing) but have Winds and Shadow and can cast them you will almost assuredly draw your deck so long as you have cycled a few times already that turn.


Have you considered Restless Dreams?

I honestly didn't know that was a card. I think it's probably better than Tolarian Winds provided that you're running enough cycling creatures (which you should be for Songs anyway). Gonna have to pick up some copies.

[maCHOOga]

I'm actively working on the standard version of this deck w/ new perspectives.

Has anyone mentioned the interaction with cast Shadow of the Grave, hold priority, crack my Lion's Eye Diamond? I assume shadow of the graves checks upon resolution much like infernal tutor? :-)

[mistercakes]

Is it good enough to net 1 mana?

[rufus]

...
Has anyone mentioned the interaction with cast Shadow of the Grave, hold priority, crack my Lion's Eye Diamond? I assume shadow of the graves checks upon resolution much like infernal tutor? :-)

Yeah, Shadow does not target.

You can also stack up cycling and then pop the LED.

[Purple Blood]

I'm actively working on the standard version of this deck w/ new perspectives.

Has anyone mentioned the interaction with cast Shadow of the Grave, hold priority, crack my Lion's Eye Diamond? I assume shadow of the graves checks upon resolution much like infernal tutor? :-)

All things considered I'd rather cast Tolarian Winds and Shadow of the Grave and double my hand size - 2 rather than net 1 mana. Granted that does cost 4 mana to play but you can make that on turn 2 and if you're getting the god hand turn 1.

[Poron]

consider also Emrakul, 15/15

It can be hardcast with a final Song and takes back all your deck if discarded (anyway you discard it) if something fizzled

[mistercakes]

Trying to think of a 1 card combo for an alternative version of this deck.

Original idea was doomsday, because if you cast Fluctuator with two cycling cards in hand with Fluctuator out you can win for just the mana cost of doomsday.

Any thoughts? Might be total crap but wanted to pitch the idea.

this is my initial list, it's a bit slow, trying to compensate w/ counters + discard.


//combo 13
4 fluctuator
4 doomsday
2 lion's eye diamond
1 meditate
1 three wishes
1 laboratory maniac

//protection 26
4 cabal therapy
4 force of will
4 miscalculation
4 gitaxian probe
3 rescind
3 daze
2 swat
2 thoughtseize

//lands 21
4 canyon slough
4 fetid pools
4 polluted mire
4 irrigated farmland
4 underground sea
1 remote isle


open to suggestions, this is just a draft.

daze + fluctuator + new duals is pretty sweet. couldn't fit dark ritual in the list, so it's a bit slow. likely looking like a turn 4 kill likely as a consistent early one. even then maybe turn 5 is more reasonable.

fluctuator in play. (2 cycling cards in hand. could also have probe + 1 cycling card or 2 probes, but that requires life as well).

cast doomsday:
cycle first draw LED,
cycle second, cast 3 wishes with led mana.
lab man, led, probe (maybe you can use a cycling card here? weird how 3 wishes is worded. maybe someone can correct me on that if i'm wrong)


also was considering 1-2 dark petition, but this might require some more speed. this way if you have fluctuator in play and resolve dark petition you just win on the spot given you have the 2 cycling cards in hand.

[Cire]

Noxious Revival

This has always been a card I considered - but from my perspective, if the card isn't (1) necessary for the combo (accel, win con, search), (2) protection, OR (3) takes the places of at least 2 cycling cards (like restless dreams) then it shouldn't be included.

Noxious Revival is versatile and gets you out of jams, but it's hard to justify it over just more protection.


I'm actively working on the standard version of this deck w/ new perspectives

Pretty curious how that would work?


consider also Emrakul

Problem with Emmy is that (1) you can just win with Lab Man AND (2) if you discard Emmy you can't get back your cyclers with Sahdows and Dreams.


Trying to think of a 1 card combo for an alternative version of this deck.

Original idea was doomsday, because if you cast Fluctuator with two cycling cards in hand with Fluctuator out you can win for just the mana cost of doomsday.


That's more of a two card combo (Fluctuator + Doomsday, and not including the cycling cards you already need in your hand). I think Doomsday decks are pretty optomized on their own threads - do they need cycling tech? I'm going to guess not.

[rufus]

...New Perspectives ...

Pretty curious how that would work?

...

If you can start the engine, then Vizier of Tumbling Sands and Shefet Monitor produce mana, you can produce bodies with Stir the Sands, and if you need recursion Memory + Torrential Gearhulk let's you stack a draw 7 over cycling effects so you that you can recur stuff in case shadows isn't quite enough. Gitrog Monster + Cycling lands probably also fits in the same deck.

[Cire]

If you can start the engine, then Vizier of Tumbling Sands and Shefet Monitor produce mana, you can produce bodies with Stir the Sands, and if you need recursion Memory + Torrential Gearhulk let's you stack a draw 7 over cycling effects so you that you can recur stuff in case shadows isn't quite enough. Gitrog Monster + Cycling lands probably also fits in the same deck.

That's pretty damn cool!

[maCHOOga]

Here is a link to the deck of the day, in standard.
The deck consistently can kill on turn 5-6 and doesn't seem to brick.

https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/deck-of-the-day-new-perspectives/

The article basically explains the loop, but in a nutshell...
It tries to stay alive to generate 6 mana, cast new perspectives and does the following:
- Cycles Shefet monitor first to pull out basics to ramp mana.
- It uses weirding wood on a land to generate +2 mana per untap with Vizier of Tumbling Sands.
- Traverse the Ulvewald is used to demonic tutor more Viziers or the Sphinx of the Last Word to protect the combo.
- Cast Approach the 2nd Sun twice in the same turn by generating 14 mana.

[Barook]

Looking through cards that combine with Walking Ballista, I found Invigorating Boon. Probably too cute, but interesting nonetheless.

[Purple Blood]

Been testing Spoils of the Vault it's a great card except for the times you exile Lab Maniac and lose the game. Going to be testing Intuition next. I was hoping to find a black tutor that worked because that would allow me to stay mono black. I wish Vampiric Tutor was legal. Here's my current testing list:

8 Sol Lands
4 Lots Petals
4 Fetid Pool
4 Polluted Swamp

4 Fluctuator
4 Shadows
3 Restless Dreams
3 Songs of the Damned
2 Intuition
1 Lab Maniac

2 Unearth
21 Cycling Creatures

I'd say half my goldfish games are T1 or T2 wins but there is still too big of a percentage that end in a fizzle. Not sure I can really fix the latter.

As long as you have 3-4 cyclers and can make mana for a Shadow that's usually enough to draw into something else. Restless Dreams turns brick hands into non-brick hands for one black and casting Dreams --> Shadow draws the whole deck 99% of the time. Definitely a must play because it lets you lower the amount of cyclers by a ton since you can essentially 'trade out" non-cyclers for cyclers. Unearth is really there incase Maniac gets countered because hard-casting it is never a problem once you have the deck in hand.

My goal is to stabilize this list and then figure out what cuts I need to make for 4 mainboard Duress. I will also run FoW sideboard I think.

[rufus]

...Been testing Spoils of the Vault it's a great card except for the times you exile Lab Maniac and lose the game.
...

I'd say half my goldfish games are T1 or T2 wins but there is still too big of a percentage that end in a fizzle. Not sure I can really fix the latter.
...

How about -1 Unearth, +1 Laboratory Maniac to facilitate spoils? The chance of exiling both is roughly 1/16.

If you run run Canyon Slough instead of polluted mire, and swampcycling creatures, it might change the fizzle characteristics. (I haven't done the math.)

[Cire]

You're fizzling because to go off turn 1, and assuming you're running 2 restless dreams you need at least 32 cycling cards, half of which must be creatures. (In order to get a second a Shadows/Dreams). And that also doesn't take into account that if you're aiming to go off turn 1, not only do you need to get (1) a SOL land, (2) A fluctuator, (3) draw into a 2nd shadows/dreams using your cycling cards, AND (4) 1 or 2 accel cards to even cast the 2nd shadows/dreams.

That's why I don't think this deck is buildable as a 1-2 turn deck. 3 is pushing it. 4 is the sweet spot in terms of speed, protection, consistency and affordability. 5 is "why bother" territory.

[Purple Blood]

You're fizzling because to go off turn 1, and assuming you're running 2 restless dreams you need at least 32 cycling cards, half of which must be creatures. (In order to get a second a Shadows/Dreams). And that also doesn't take into account that if you're aiming to go off turn 1, not only do you need to get (1) a SOL land, (2) A fluctuator, (3) draw into a 2nd shadows/dreams using your cycling cards, AND (4) 1 or 2 accel cards to even cast the 2nd shadows/dreams.

That's why I don't think this deck is buildable as a 1-2 turn deck. 3 is pushing it. 4 is the sweet spot in terms of speed, protection, consistency and affordability. 5 is "why bother" territory.

My current thought process is let's build this as fast as possible and then slow it down as little as possible while arriving at a sweet spot.

You're right about T1 wins needing to have a nut draw. But it happens a decent portion of the time. FWIW, my current list is 31 cyclers; so one off your recommendation.

[Cire]

IMO, here is the "core"

4 Fluctuator
3-4 Cards to Search for Fluctuator
4 Shadows
2-3 Restless Dreams
7-8 "Accel"
1 Lab Maniac
19-28 (depending on how fast you want to go off) Cycling cards (half of which must be creatures, the other half lands to help with your numbers)
4 Blasted Landscape

So the "fasted deck" I can imagine would end up something like:

4 Fluctuator
4 Cards to Search for Fluctuator
4 Shadows
2 Restless Dreams
8 Accel
1 Maniac
14 Cycling duals
4 Blasted Landscape
14 Cycling creatures
5 SOL Lands

The most "protection" turn 4 deck I can imagine would end up something like:

4 Fluctuator
3 Cards to Search for Fluctuator
4 Shadows
2 Restless Dreams
7 Accel
1 Maniac
11 Cycling duals
4 Blasted Landscape
12 Cycling creatures
4-5 Other lands (Duals, fetch or maybe even sol lands?)
6-7 "Protection"

[rufus]

...
So the "fasted deck" I can imagine would end up something like:

4 Fluctuator
4 Cards to Search for Fluctuator
4 Shadows
2 Restless Dreams
8 Accel
1 Maniac
14 Cycling duals
4 Blasted Landscape
14 Cycling creatures
5 SOL Lands
...

So something like:


4 Fluctuator
4 Spoils of the Vault
4 Shadows of the Past
3 Restless Dreams
2 Chrome Mox
2 Songs of the Damned
4 Mox Diamond
2 Unearth
2 Laboratory Maniac
4 Fetid Pools
4 Canyon Slough
2 Polluted Mire
4 Blasted Landscape
4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Viscera Dragger
2 Wasteland Scorpion
4 Jhessian Zombies
4 City of Traitors
1 Ancient Tomb


I'll see about automated testing with a list like that this weekend.

The Viscera Draggers can do a lot of damage. Does something goofy like Syphon Life make any sense with that as an alternative wincon?

Edit: Maybe Raven's Crime to eat their hand and then some bloated toad beats to close out the game.

[Smea.gol.lum]

I've already experimented with Fluctuator some years ago and I can remember that the most stable versions featured a lot of sol lands and Thran Turbine as a secondary engine.
I don't think that it's a good idea to run Spoils of the Vault for two reasons: Firstly, you will randomly lose games and I hate it when a deck folds to itself. Secondly, you need your life as a resource for Ancient Tomb and Street Wraith.

The cards from Amonkhet that make the deck better than some years ago are Shadow of the Grave, Fetid Pools or rather the ability to cycle into it via Jhessian Zombies or Twisted Abomination (making Shadow of the Grave better) and Archfiend of Ifnir.

Here's what I would start testing with:

Lands:
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Swamp
4 Fetid Pools
4 Blasted Landscape

Combo:
4 Fluctuator
3 Thran Turbine
4 Shadow of the Grave
2 Restless Dreams
4 Lotus Petal
3 Songs of the Damned

Protection:
4 Cabal Therapy

Cyclers:
4 Street Wraith
3 Unearth
3 Cloud of Faeries
4 Viscera Dragger
4 Jhessian Zombies
2 Archfiend of Ifnir


Some quick notes:
- 28 cyclers in total
- You should run at least one basic swamp that you can cycle into (against Moon effects).
- 12 lands that don't enter the battlefield tapped make sure that you can play something turn 1. You shouldn't sit around T1 doing nothing.
-Sol lands are really important because they speed the deck up considerably: They enable T1 Fluctuator and let you start cycling immediately, even if you don't have Fluctuator.
-Imo you should run some sort of protection, e.g. Cabal Therapy that can be flashed back via Viscera Dragger and Cloud of Faeries.
-When you control 2 or more lands, Unearth + Cloud of Faeries is a nice way to produce mana in case of not having Songs of the Damned in your hand.
- Archfiend of Ifnir is a good thread that has to be answered by most of the decks. If you can't go off, casting an Archfiend and cycling cards can be a way to control the board.
- I don't think that you need to run Laboratory Maniac. When you go off, you can unearth 4 Viscery Draggers (12 damage), cast Archfiend of Ifnir, kill all their creatures and shred their hand via Cabal Therapy resulting in no hand cards and no creatures. As a dredge player, I can say that this is enough in the vast majority of games to win. In some cases they can still win by topdecking a burn spell when you're low on life but every slot counts and imo it is worth freeing the Maniac slot for more business.

Some questions in terms of numbers that have to be answered are:
3 or 4 Clouds of Faeries and Unearth? 2 or more Archfiends of Ifnir? Are 2 Songs of the Damned also enough if you use unearthing Faeries as a way to generate mana?
How often do you fizzle due to not having a land left in your deck that you can cycle into with Jhessian Zombies? Should you run more cycle lands as a consequence?

Another interesting card is Esper Sojourners: it lets you tap down opposing lands and creatures or can function as a normal cycler untapping one of your lands. However, this requires you to run a blue source (Underground Sea) and some numbers of Mox Diamonds that you can untap with the Sojourners. This increases the chances of fizzling though (having Sojourners in hand but no blue source in play to untap). I see it as a good sideboard card, that you can side in for longer games.

[mistercakes]

looks fun. i was pretty satisfied with the other list that just ran the cycling discard spell. quite a few slow turns, but i think that it's worth trying a build like this since the fastest builds possible have already been tested quite a bunch to limited success.

thran turbine (zvi's original tech) will probably be okay, my only concern is if it is too slow for legacy.

can't hurt to try.

[interfector]

What about this list?


4 Fluctuator
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Shadow of the Grave
4 Lotus Petal
1 Laboratory Maniac
4 Blasted Landscape
4 Fetid Pools
4 Canyon Slough
3 City of Traitors
1 Unearth
3 Viscera Dragger
4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Jhessian Zombies
4 Polluted Mire
3 Infernal Tutor
2 Ancient Tomb
2 Irrigated Farmland
1 Burning Wish
2 Restless Dreams
1 Chrome Mox
1 Rescind

SB: 1 Hush
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 1 Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 Void Snare
SB: 3 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Doomsday
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Second Sunrise
SB: 1 Conjurer's Bauble
SB: 1 Predict
SB: 3 Sicken


Some choices:

Lion's Eye Diamond : pretty good with Shadow of the Grave and Infernal Tutor.
Sol Lands : Necessary for "fast" combo. (sometimes T1)
Cycleland + Jhessian Zombie : Very good synergy, when there are no cycleland in the deck you can imprint Zombies on Chrome Mox.
Burning Wish : Strange choice but can search for answer maindeck.
Restless Dreams : Good to not fizzle, but sometimes not necessary.
Rescind and Unearth : Flex slot but Rescind can answer maindeck on opponent turn (and cycles), Unearth to bring back Maniac or a creature to use Cabal Therapy post sideboard.

Sideboard:

A wishboard Hush (for silly enchantment, but i costs a lot), Massacre vs D&T, Infernal Tutor (sometimes useful to wish for tutor and search for something), Void Snare for everything, you can also get Cabal Therapy but usually it's boarded in post side.
Cabal Therapy : For obvious reasons, nice synergy with Unearth (the card and the ability of Viscera).
Sicken : Vs small creatures (flex slot, maybe some other card)

Alternate combo: Doomsday for this stack:

== TOP ==
Predict
Grapeshot
Lion's Eye Diamond
Conjurer's Bauble
Second Sunrise
== BOTTOM ==


Sometimes you use Doomsday, sometimes you don't use Doomsday to assemble the combo but it's pretty cool.

The sideboard is unusual but you can board in only the 3 combo pieces: Second Sunrise, Grapeshot and Conjurer's Bauble to start a loop with LED for a crazy amount of storm count. All cooked with a beautiful Doomsday (not strictly necessary).

[mistercakes]

so this new card Hollow One could add some value to the deck:

http://i.imgur.com/9MSrki1.png

4/4 for 5cc (artifact). has cycling for 2. in addition, you can reduce it's CC by 2 for each card that has been cycled or discarded. (3 cycling = free?)

i think now the deck can probably has another functional win condition early in the game and this also doesn't require a ton of mana via songs of the damned. still will hold off on coming up with any lists until the rest of the set is spoiled in case there's another cycling card to come.

[Cire]

Was just about to come back to this thread to post Hollow One. I really like it. It doesn't push this deck into "good" but I do like the idea of: Sol Land --> Fluctuator --> Cycle 3 cards --> Cast a Hollow one or two.

[R3ndr0c]

http://mythicspoiler.com/hou/cards/abandonedsarcophagus.jpg

This card seems like it could be really good in this deck too. Fluctuator is getting a lot of love.

I'm not sure how people were trying to win the other way, maybe get 4 hasty Draggers? Play some creatures from hand off of Songs of the Damned and win the following turn?

With Sarcophogus you can Songs of the Damned for tons of mana and cast a whole bunch of creatures from the graveyard plus Unearth Draggers. What we would need is a way to make the cast creatures hasted and we can win the turn we combo off. We could get rid of all opponents blockers with Ifnir, and just swing unobstructed for the win.

[Doishy]

http://mythicspoiler.com/hou/cards/abandonedsarcophagus.jpg

This card seems like it could be really good in this deck too. Fluctuator is getting a lot of love.

I'm not sure how people were trying to win the other way, maybe get 4 hasty Draggers? Play some creatures from hand off of Songs of the Damned and win the following turn?

With Sarcophogus you can Songs of the Damned for tons of mana and cast a whole bunch of creatures from the graveyard plus Unearth Draggers. What we would need is a way to make the cast creatures hasted and we can win the turn we combo off. We could get rid of all opponents blockers with Ifnir, and just swing unobstructed for the win.

Singleton Unearth + relevant give haste creature? Or random one of Goblin Bushwacker cast off of LP?

[R3ndr0c]

Singleton Unearth + relevant give haste creature? Or random one of Goblin Bushwacker cast off of LP?

Unearthed Draggers plus Ifnir +1 other creature plus Reckless Bushwhacker could probably do it, but we would probably need two copies of Bushwhacker to do it reliably, and two copies is a lot more than 1 in this kind of deck.

Perhaps not giving them haste is ok, since we eat away at their hand with Cabal Therapies.

[Cire]

Best case scenario is to cycle a bunch of creatures and then cast songs of the damned and then cast those very same creatures. But I sort of feel that just casting shadows and continually cycling into accel and Lab Maniac is just more efficent. With Sarcophagous you need 1 more mana than Shadows and instead of trying to find 2+ of any accel pieces you are looking for a specific accel piece (Songs).

Edit: you were unsure of how the deck usually wins? It is to have fluctuator in play, cycle a bunch of card, cast Shadows, cycle everything again, cycle cards you drew by cycling, cast accel that you drew into by cycling, cast another shadows or restless dreams, keep on cycling and repeat until you can cast lab maniac, then keep cycling and cycling until you run out of cards and you win. It's a lot more stable and consistent than it sounds.

[Mr. Safety]

Deck seems a lot like Eggs really, which is based on the same principle only with mana eggs and Second Sunrise. The 2 casting cost of Shadow, and the 2 casting cost of Fluctuator, both seem to be upgrades in efficiency.

[mistercakes]

Eggs is a bit more stable bc of all the cantrips. (eggs) you have to draw the Fluctuator and then it's really easy to fizzle on top of that.

Maybe with some of these new additions the deck can finally play a more midrange game with a strong engine that can randomly combo off.

[Cire]

http://media.wizards.com/2017/hou/en_m8mbZyQz6g.png

Another creature that we can slot in - and one that is pretty good on it's own. We can cast it early and then next turn fluctuator and treat this like a win con. So far here's what an updated list could look like:



4 Vile Manifestation
4 Archfiend of Ifnir
4 Street Wraith
4 Hollow One
1 Laboratory Maniac

4 Fluctuator
4 Shadow of the Grave
4 Lotus Petal
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Dark Ritual
2 Songs of the Damned
2 Restless Dreams

4 Canyon Slough
4 Marsh Flats
4 Blasted Landscape
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Irrigated Farmland
3 Fetid Pools

[mistercakes]

this is definitely a great card for the archetype. still unsure if it's viable since you have to draw the fluctuator. given that he has summoning sickness (same w/ the hollow one), might it make sense to try to play a slower strategy? running some discard to keep other decks honest and protect the fluctuator?

[Cire]

Yeah - it's a rough draft - with this new horror and Hollow One we should be content to play a slow midrange deck with a possible combo win turn 4/5

[mistercakes]

Yeah - it's a rough draft - with this new horror and Hollow One we should be content to play a slow midrange deck with a possible combo win turn 4/5


the red jackal guy could also be okay. i think he's a 1/2 menace for R and gets a bonus when you cycle until eot. he might clutter up the deck though.

[procobrito]

Mox diamond could help with the discard and ramp right?

Enviado de meu SM-G900MD usando Tapatalk

[R3ndr0c]

LED is also great with Shadow of the Grave, cast Shadow, then crack LED in response.

[Firefraise]

Since Street wraith has swampwalk why not using Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth? If we are to take the Mox diamond route, what about Lake of the dead? It helps pay for wraith and Archfiend of Ifnir and let us sacrifice our cycling swamps when we dont have fluctuator on the battlefield which would help vile manifestation. I wonder whats the plan against blood moon though?

[ronco]

Delve seems to have synergy with this deck too. Another way to get creatures/spells on the cheap if need be. Treasure Cruise, Tombstalker come to mind at first, but there are discard/creature sac cards with delve as well.
Also, how about haunting misery? If you go a creature cycle heavy build this could do it too. The only catch is countermagic really stops the deck in its tracks, so a handful of discard/probe can go a long way in this I think. It does have negative synergy with delve, but just trying to put options out there.

[MDHackbert]

Delve seems to have synergy with this deck too. Another way to get creatures/spells on the cheap if need be. Treasure Cruise, Tombstalker come to mind at first, but there are discard/creature sac cards with delve as well.

Sorry man, TC is banned in Legacy.

[ronco]

My bad, please have the jury strike that from the record.

I'll be building this out over the next week and test out a delve/cycle mix and see if there is a balance that can be had.

Another idea - if one can get cards back from cycling there is conflagrate (flashed back of course)

[procobrito]

I was thinking about abuse cycling in Lands shell (maybe a UBG Lands).

Use life from the loam to recover cycled lands everytime, easily to get a Academy Ruins to recover Fluctuator when they get destroied or you dreadge it with LftL. Probably you don't even need 4 Fluctuators, you don't have so many cycling card too. The primary win con obviously Dark Depths, crop rotation and entomb are nice tutors, raven's crime is a funny discard recover. Cephalid Coliseum and Cephalid Coliseum looks nice here too.
Well, probably this woudn't work, is more dredge than cycling.

[R3ndr0c]

I haven't found the time to put together the most competitive list I can yet.

I'll just post some cards I came across that could potentially see play.

Twilight's Call
Driven // Despair
Haunting Misery

[mistercakes]

Haunting misery used to be the old kill in this deck, no reason it couldn't be again.

Living death seems superior to twilight's call.

[Cire]

Speaking of win cons - radical thought - what of a deck with no combo win con?

This is a "god hand" but imagine a play like this:

Turn 1 - Sol Land (6 cards left), Fluctuator (5 cards left), Cycle Vile manifestation, Cycle Unearth, Cycle 2 more cards, (5 cards left), Cast Hollow One (4 cards left), Lotus Petal / Accel (3 Cards Left), Dark Ritual / Songs of the Damned (2 cards left), Cast Shadows of the Grave (1 Cards + 4 Cyclers), Recycle 4 cards (5 cards left), Cast more Hollow Ones and any amount of Unearths for Vile Manfistations (each should be around 4+/4). Have 12+ power out.

Yes, it seems ridiculous but consider that unlike the combo kill version of the list this one wouldn't have "dead" cards - and hopefully more room for protection.

[rufus]

...

Yes, it seems ridiculous but consider that unlike the combo kill version of the list this one wouldn't have "dead" cards - and hopefully more room for protection.

You can run Viscera Dragger as a damage dealer with unearth, but there's no obviously good way to give Hollow One haste to close out in one turn and Gempalm Polluter doesn't cycle for colorless.

[Cire]

You can run Viscera Dragger as a damage dealer with unearth, but there's no obviously good way to give Hollow One haste to close out in one turn and Gempalm Polluter doesn't cycle for colorless.

Even Unearth (the ability) wouldn't be that useful - the only way a combo-less version would work is you go full midrange and treat Hollow One and Vile Manifestation as simply effective beaters. This might be a different deck because I'm sort of think that in that version the weak link would be fluctuator :rolleyes:

[rufus]

Even Unearth (the ability) wouldn't be that useful - the only way a combo-less version would work is you go full midrange and treat Hollow One and Vile Manifestation as simply effective beaters. This might be a different deck because I'm sort of think that in that version the weak link would be fluctuator :rolleyes:

I think grave hate would be a bigger issue. You could try Abandoned Sarcophagus as a part of a value plan too.

[Cire]

I think grave hate would be a bigger issue. You could try Abandoned Sarcophagus as a part of a value plan too.

Something like this?

The Last Cycler (heh, I don't know another name based on a Team ICO game)

4 Hollow One
4 Vile Manifestation
4 Street Wraith
4 Curator of Mysteries

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Unearth
2 Fluctuator
2 Abandoned Sarcophagus

24 (An UNHOLY mix of cycling lands, Sol-Lands, and lands to support UBW?!)

[ronco]

I think the fluctuator is still necessary as it gives you "free" hollow ones and also acts as a tutor of sorts. Need a threat removal (stp, for example)? Cycle until you find it. I was going to try 4 enlightened/2flux in my test deck, so you beat me to that. Tutors can search for hollow ones after the flux is in play and if we have a cycle card in hand its practically an into your hand tutor as well.

I think the above is the route I want to pursue. Maybe not 4 STP, but 4-6 general removal (ideally with flashback or retrace) that can be sought to buy time until the beats get through.

I hadn't thought of living death so that is an interesting option too.

Abandoned sarcophages - didn't think about playing hollow one from the yard. Or unearth for that matter. I like that more and more.

The last cycler - way nicer than some names I was thinking of. With "Fluctuator" in the deck theres too much fun to be had with "Flucs" in the name of this lol. Flying Flucs (with tombstalker), misery flucs (haunting misery) you get the idea!

[rufus]

I'm not sure that unearth is a good fit if there's only one creature it can hit and sarcophagus lets you cast the creature for 2 anyway. I would be more inclined to look for utility cards like Rescind.

[Cire]

"The Last Cycler" list was more proof of concept than a serious attempt - but there might be potential in it. I am wondering what the required cards of such a list would be though . . . what's the expected goal? The original plan outside the sarcophagus was just to get at around 3 VMs/HOs out turn 1/2. That seems sort of competitive. The necessary steps for that are (1) Fluctuator the turn before, (2) 4 mana open MINUS each unearth or accel you draw, (3) to draw up to 3 VMs/HOs you would need to "see" at least X cards (Rufus is much better at math, so I leave X up to him :tongue:). The problem is that is not that realistic - or at the very least not realistic turn 1/2. So lets slow it down for turn 3/4. Yes getting 12+ power turn 3/4 is no longer wow worthy, but if we also have protection the entire time, perhaps that would be more exciting? Therefore the requirements due to those assumptions are: (1) Cards necessary to get fluctuator in play by turn 3 & have the capability to cast fluctuator turn 1, (2) have X cyclers, where X is the amount necessary to draw into (A) at least 3 VMs/HOs by turn 3/4 (Note that unlike the "combo" deck - you don't need to save up on Cyclers, you can cycle whenever since you'll probably have the 3 necessary cyclers to make HO free regardless) OR (B) at least 2 VMs/HOs by turn 3/4 if X allows you to have cycled through 6-8 cyclers by turn 3-4, and (3) have enough protection/removal in the deck to make "consistent" 12+ power an attractive strategy (which i think is about 3 pieces of removal/protection by turn 3/4).

[rufus]

"The Last Cycler" list was more proof of concept than a serious attempt - but there might be potential in it. I am wondering what the required cards of such a list would be though . . . what's the expected goal? The original plan outside the sarcophagus was just to get at around 3 VMs/HOs out turn 1/2. That seems sort of competitive. ....

Part of the problem for me is that Hollow One doesn't compare that favorably with Gurmag Angler,Tasigur, Golden Fang, or even Tarmogoyf so it's hard to make the 'midrange value plan' super solid. By comparison, the Vile Manefestation has a much better chance of trading with those.

It's pretty easy to estimate the number of cards you need to see: (number of cards in deck) / (number of cards in target set) * (number in target set you want to see)

So, for example, to see 3 of 8 VM/HOs from a 60 card deck you'll want to see (60)/8*3=22.5 cards.

Similarly, you can just use (non-cycling draws)/(1-(cyclers/cards in deck)) to estimate the total cards drawn. So to see 22.5 cards by turn 3, you'd want a bit more than half the deck to be cyclers. The math doesn't get interesting unless Shadows of the Past or Restless Dreams is involved.

There are some other spicy options - Nemesis of Mortals,Circling Vultures,Ghoultree, Zombie Infestation, and Blood Scrivener come to mind.

[Mr. Safety]

Is Zombie Infestation worth trying in this deck?

[ronco]

rufus mentioned that above.
I think it has potential with Shadow of the grave but a board wipe or pyroclasm shuts you down and leaves you cardless (depending on how many are discarded). I think living death is a better way to go with that, or perhaps an empty the pits. Now, if it said "when you discard..." then that might be a different story.

I think there are 2 or 3 paths for this deck.
1 - speed to cycle creature out and put a bunch of hollow ones out/get an archfiend in play with songs of the damned or living death and use that as a creature lock and beat them.
2 - combo with laboratory maniac
3 - control where there are a minimal number of creatures (archfiend, likely, possibly tombstalker) and the rest of the cyclers are disruption or removal. Think miscalculation, etc. The deck won't need as much speed and will need mana more than the first two builds, but could probably be the most robust and consistant of the builds. I think it would also have fewer overall cycling cards as some will need to be cast.

This is all just thinking out loud, I haven't tested but my attempt at the first above seems to have reasonable speed but is very susceptible to disruption itself (namely discard), so I'm trying to come up with other options. Splashing a reanimate or exhume came to mind. Less mana than Living death but gives a few more outs to dead end cycles, hopefully. I think a small amount of disruption of its own would go a long way in the aggressive fast version but its tough to cut cards from the list. I'll post later tonight if anyone has ideas. Someone had mentioned ravens crime earlier.

[ronco]

Heres the current build I'm testing

Creatures - 20:

4 Hollow One
4 Primoc Escapee
4 vile Manifestation
4 Viscera Dragger
4 Archfiend of Ifnir

Spells - 22:

4 fluctuator
4 songs of the damned
4 enlightened tutor
4 lotus petal
2 living death
2 shadow of the grave
2 restless dreams

Land - 18:

4 ancient tomb
2 polluted mire
4 fetid pools
4 blasted landscape
2 ash barrens
1 swamp
1 plains


My first build had 4 cloud of faeries instead of the enlightened tutor but that meant for inconsistency in my fluctuator showing up. 4 tutors gets me the card faster but then I run short on my cycles and hit too many dead ends. this would be a case where zombie infestation OR additional restless dreams/shadow of the grave would come in handy. But then you run into the problem of running into too many shadows too early or when you don't have a songs/mana available to utilize it.

Note the fetid pools were in there because I originally had miscalculation in there in an attempt to have a touch of control with cycling but that has since been dropped.

I had consume spirit and empty the pits in there originally also. They seemed to be win more cards as they were useless too early and Living death seemed to be a better play at that time.

I'm torn on Shadows of the Grave and Restless dreams. I'm currently split as they both serve a different function. Dreams allows you to "restart" your cycling if you run into a dead end and for only 1 mana, but nets you card disadvantage while Shadows allows you to restart from that turn only, but almost always gives you a significant card advantage.

[ronco]

call to the netherworld has synergy with zombie infestation.

Not a lot, but some. Maybe Zombie infestation and shadow of the grave could be its own build. I could see ichorids, prized amalgrams, etc going in there.

[R3ndr0c]

I also feel like Hollow One is not what this deck wants to be playing, although I suppose it's still a better option as a creature that cycles than most, but I mean we don't want to be trying to play a slow aggro plan. This deck should win the turn it goes off.

[ronco]

I agree from the sense that i never plan on casting it outright. But its a 4/4 that cycles for 2, so that is the role it fills in my deck from a living death standpoint.

The above list I feel has just a few too few cyclers. Too many dead draws. Still trying to tinker and see what can be done about it.

[R3ndr0c]

I agree from the sense that i never plan on casting it outright. But its a 4/4 that cycles for 2, so that is the role it fills in my deck from a living death standpoint.

The above list I feel has just a few too few cyclers. Too many dead draws. Still trying to tinker and see what can be done about it.

I think having a way to give your creatures haste might be necessary, but perhaps it's just fine to win a turn later if finding a way to give them haste makes the combo less consistent.

If you are playing Restless Dreams then you should play Street Wraith since you can cycle it early digging for tutor or Fluctuator, whereas if you had Shadow you would want to hold it in hand.

I'm worried that with Dreams you won't be able to discard enough cards to keep your engine going, but casting a single Shadow into another shadow will win the game.

You might want to add a single Lake of the Dead for some extra mana.

If you're having issue with not enough cyclers, I recommend using Twisted Abomination or Jhessian Zombies in combination with Fetid Pool. They are cyclers that fetch cyclers! In addition to this, playing landcyclers means that you will get mana screwed less often.

EDIT:

I just found something that I think might be really useful. If you have a copy of Tortured Existence that you can fetch when you are cycling, you can play it to rebuy Shadow! for only 2 mana! And when you cast shadow you can then get back your creature to cycle again. Seems good.

Those are my tips, but other than that your list look pretty sweet I will test this a bit. Hopefully my tips are helpful.

[ronco]

Very helpful, thanks!
I had Street Wraith when I was testing the deck in apprentice, then when I went to actually build it I completely forgot about it.
Totally didn't think about swampcycling for fetid pools. That might be a key move that I had overlooked, in addition to mana fixing. Ideally Id replace the swamp and plains with duals but that isn't in the budget at the current time. That would allow me to pull the ash barrens for something better as well. Maybe I'll swap out them with Irrigated Farmland, Lake of the dead, and maybe a couple other cycle comes in to play tapped lands and see what happens.

Tortured existence actually might open up other avenues. Since I'm going for living death (currently), it essentially turns every creature into a cycler for B, so I might be able to run a few other key non-cyclers that have synergy with the deck as long as the mana is good. Although you mentioned it getting shadow back, I don't really see that since it has to return a creature, but if I'm missing something please let me know.

EDIT
Tortured existence is really a re-usable/spot use restless dreams, at an overall higher mana. I'll keep it in the back of my mind but I'm not sure it makes it into this particular build. Perhaps in a deck with less cycling, more of a midrange build type thing.

EDIT 2
also, burst of speed would do the trick for haste. just need to play around with the mana base to get it. Lotus petals definitely help.

[mistercakes]

empty the catacombs
could this card have a place in the deck somewhere?

i suppose this is more of a card that could see play if you don't mind passing the turn after casting fluctuator, as it's much easier to cast then. at least it's a good topdeck when the deck fizzles.

[ronco]

I think at 4 mana I'd rather just cast living death and be done with it. Restless Dreams serves a similar purpose for 1, so I don't think it really has a place, but can certainly be kept in the back pocket in case the focus of the deck shifts. But I do see your point. Seeing this after running into a dead cycle would be a godsend as shadows would be useless at that point.

And ideally, if you cast fluctuator, you want to end the game that turn. Its a sitting duck target for removal and if it does get removed, the deck stops cold, practically.

Here's the most recent deck list:

Creatures - 20:

4 Jhessian Zombies
4 Primoc Escapee
4 vile Manifestation
4 Viscera Dragger - might switch these to twisted abomination
4 Archfiend of Ifnir

Spells - 22:

4 fluctuator
4 songs of the damned
2 enlightened tutor
4 lotus petal
2 living death
3 shadow of the grave
1 restless dreams
2 Burst of Speed

Land - 18:

4 ancient tomb
4 fetid pools
4 blasted landscape
4 canyon slough
2 irrigated farmland


This build seems to be more consistent when it goes off. That said, I don't know if it was the lower tutors or what, but it seems like I get more inconsistent on getting that cycle going in the first place. As R3ndr0c pointed out, the land cycling aspect is quite handy. But I think 22 non-cycle spells plus 4 ancient tombs is the absolute max one would want to be at in terms of cycles vs non cycles. If anyone has suggestions for reducing that I'm all ears. For swamp cyclers I have 8 searchable swamps and for island cycling I have 6 searchable island (10 total combined). That might not be enough with 8 landcycler creatures if I add in the twisted abominations, but I might try removing some spells for more creatures, or find some cycling spells to replace them with but there isn't really anything that "works" in the way the deck is currently set up. A single songs of the damned or restless dreams would be all I could see cutting for more cycle cards.

I haven't put the street wraiths in yet. I am iffy with the paying life in conjunction with ancient tombs as I tend to use those to cycle if I don't have the fluctuator out yet.

This may be obvious, but my general strategy is to dig as aggressively as possible to get the fluctuator out. I've had to hard cast vile and archfiend in playtesting and it just isn't the same lol. Plus its god awful slow. But little changes here and there are making the deck slightly better each time I feel. Just need to keep testing and tweaking. I think hitting the magic number on # of cyclers and tutors will help make a good template for other variants of the deck (milling with Sphinx's Tutelage, comboing with laboratory maniac, for example).

This may seem crazy, But I was also toying with the idea of some unmask in the main as well. unfortunately that just adds to the cycle/non cycle mix in a negative way. but would sure be nice to make sure the living death/burst of speed/shadow of the grave gets through.

EDIT
Igneous Pouncer has swamp/mountain cycling and haste. Could be a consideration here too. The cycle lands come into play tapped which is a huge pain so maybe having a one off of swamp/mountain (like originally planned) might be worth it with these to make sure I have the mana fix to cast a songs/burst. Although with 4x 5/1 with haste I might not need the burst of speed after all. macetail hystrodon has haste and cycling for 3.... being able to open up 2 slots by removing the burst could be something to look into.

[rufus]

...
EDIT
Igneous Pouncer has swamp/mountain cycling and haste. Could be a consideration here too. The cycle lands come into play tapped which is a huge pain so maybe having a one off of swamp/mountain (like originally planned) might be worth it with these to make sure I have the mana fix to cast a songs/burst. Although with 4x 5/1 with haste I might not need the burst of speed after all. macetail hystrodon has haste and cycling for 3.... being able to open up 2 slots by removing the burst could be something to look into.

~~A challenge with pouncer is that fluctuator doesn't zero out the cycling cost. Maybe there's some fluctuator-less plan where it can really shine.~~ Edit: This is wrong.

An alternative to Burst of Speed is to use Rites of Initiation with the viscera dragger.

[ronco]

A challenge with pouncer is that fluctuator doesn't zero out the cycling cost. Maybe there's some fluctuator-less plan where it can really shine.

An alternative to Burst of Speed is to use Rites of Initiation with the viscera dragger.

Actually, I believe it does work with landcycling. From the oracle:
"Landcycling is a form of cycling. Any ability that triggers on a card being cycled also triggers on a card being landcycled. Any ability that stops a cycling ability from being activated also stops a landcycling ability from being activated."
more specifically:
"702.28e Typecycling is a variant of the cycling ability. “[Type]cycling [cost]” means “[Cost], Discard this card: Search your library for a [type] card, reveal it, and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library.” This type is usually a subtype (as in “mountaincycling”) but can be any card type, subtype, supertype, or combination thereof (as in “basic landcycling”).
702.28f Typecycling abilities are cycling abilities, and typecycling costs are cycling costs. Any cards that trigger when a player cycles a card will trigger when a card is discarded to pay an activation cost of a typecycling ability. Any effect that stops players from cycling cards will stop players from activating cards’ typecycling abilities. Any effect that increases or reduces a cycling cost will increase or reduce a typecycling cost. Any effect that looks for a card with cycling will find a card with typecycling."

So I think that counts as a cycling ability that gets reduced. Unless you meant the macetail, in which case you are correct, it doesn't zero out unless two are in play.

Rites might also work faster than living death. Just when I thought the red mana need was removed, haha. More to test, thanks!

[rufus]

...
So I think that counts as a cycling ability that gets reduced. Unless you meant the macetail, in which case you are correct, it doesn't zero out unless two are in play.

Rites might also work faster than living death. Just when I thought the red mana need was removed, haha. More to test, thanks!

Fluctuator definitely works with landcycling. For some reason I thought pouncer was an {r/b} cycler.

[ronco]

No worries Rufus!

Another possibility to drop white altogether is shred memory or dimir infiltrator and using the transmute ability to get the fluctuator into hand from your deck.

Pros: Goes to the hand instead of the top of your deck. Doesn't require a second/third color. Can search for Shadows. Has fringe graveyard hate in a pinch.
Cons: 2 additional mana. sorcery speed. requires BB or BU (so ancient tomb doesn't help much).

This eliminates a first turn tutor, second turn fluctuator play. But, it also prevents the "waiting for a W mana source" game and can give more useful cards depending on the game state (ie it isn't necessarily a dead card after the flux is in play). Granted, the waiting for a W can be mitigated with all the land cyclers in the deck now, but this prevents it from ever happening in the first place.


More testing! I feel like this might slow the deck down but make it more consistent. we shall see.

EDIT
Transmute counts as a discard so it comes back with shadows and can also tutor for a 2cc cycler (vile manifestation), as long as I have the mana to spare for it. Might be more useful than originally thought.

updated list

Creatures - 22:

4 Jhessian Zombies
4 Igneous Pouncer
4 vile Manifestation
4 Viscera Dragger
4 Archfiend of Ifnir
2 twisted abomination - might make these Primoc escapee if the landcycling comes in too high.
[/cards]
Spells - 20:

4 fluctuator
4 songs of the damned
2 shred memory
4 lotus petal
2 living death
3 shadow of the grave
1 restless dreams

Land - 18:

4 ancient tomb
4 fetid pools
4 blasted landscape
4 canyon slough
1 irrigated farmland
1 Lake of the dead


Total Cyclers: 35
Total Non-Cyclers: 25

2 non cyclers have been removed (burst for speed), and 2 have been added (twisted abomination). Starting with 2 shred memory to see how that goes. May bump it to 3 and pull restless dreams. Lake of the dead seems to work on turn 2. First turn tapped swamp, second turn tap for mana, drop the lake then tap lake to play something (or cycle). Turn three drop a tapped land and get BBBB from it. Should be enough to get the engine going. 3 for a transmute leaving 1 for a songs or just 2 for the fluc and 2 for a shadows or something. Or play the lake on 3rd turn and get BB + BBBB for all of the above. IF the transmute works well, I may be able to pull a few more non cyclers out and squeeze in some unmask to make the deck a touch stronger. Inching along here but still getting a little better I think.

The ideal play here is to get 4 igneous pouncers in the yard with at least one archfiend while keeping viscera draggers in hand. Then living death them back and cycling the draggers to -1/-1 any of the opponents creatures to death. Then unearth them with my songs mana (at that point there should be plenty) and attack for 20-32 damage with haste with no blockers, or however much is needed.

[R3ndr0c]

A few things that are wrong with the deck, and it's partially my fault.

Lake of the Dead is only good with lots of Swamps and this deck may not have enough consistently.

Tortured Existence ONLY gets back creatures... I had brain fart.


In regards to how many Cyclers and non cyclers should be in the deck, I don't know the exact answer, but for reference, this New Perspectives deck has 31 Cyclers.

http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/new_perspectives_with_ben_frie.html

@Ronco
You don't need the Irrigated Farmland if you aren't running Enlightenend Tutor.
On that note, Transmuting seems a bit clunky with 1BB casting cost, and it's expensive, but because there is no W/B Cycling land yet printed, which makes Tutor even harder to run, maybe it's necessary. I have a single Scrubland so I think it's going to be ok. Maybe I can replace Shoreline Ranger with Pouncer but I didn't have he Scrubland before so my only white source needed to be fetched with Islandcycling.

Here is my list so far: the sideboard is not finely tuned and I haven't tested the deck much


// 60 Maindeck
// 8 Artifact
4 Fluctuator
4 Lotus Petal

// 22 Creature
4 Street Wraith
3 Viscera Dragger
4 Jhessian Zombies
4 Archfiend of Ifnir
4 Vile Manifestation
3 Shoreline Ranger
// may be replaced with Igneous Pouncer

// 10 Instant
3 Shadow of the Grave
4 Songs of the Damned
3 Enlightened Tutor

// 17 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
1 Swamp
4 Fetid Pools
4 Blasted Landscape
1 Irrigated Farmland
1 Scrubland

// 3 Sorcery
1 Restless Dreams
2 Living Death


// 15 Sideboard
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Faerie Macabre
4 Unmask
4 Thoughtseize

31 Cyclers

[ronco]

I haven't gotten to the sideboard yet, still kind of tinkering with the main. I like the direction it is going though.

Its funny, I was getting on here just to say I think the Lake and Transmute ability both seem to work well. There aren't a lot of swamps for the Lake (8) BUT there are lots of land cyclers that fetch them. The irrigated farmlands are just there as cycle lands that can be fetched by island cyclers and then cycled after that. Doesn't seem to be the problem now as they aren't really used for mana. In testing it has gotten me a shadow, a flux, and a cycler. The BB is a bit of a pain in the cost, 2B would be much better but it seems to work so far. The current build with the Transmute seems to be much better but my sample size is small (3 games) but so far its more consistent with just a couple more cyclers. Still working on the strategy as I seem to mana screw myself by not leaving myself one open so i can keep going.

I don't think more than one lake really does anything since i don't really want it right away but if i cycle into it, depending on my land play yet, it can be good.

I don't have city of traitors so I can't put those in just yet.

I'm going to keep on cycling and testing to see how it turns out and see if the deck remains consistent.



Also still don't have the wraiths in yet. I only have four and they have a nice home in my manaless dredge. But I can appreciate a free cycle. Although if one wants to ditch a couple, then play shadows and ditch while using ancient tomb... that 2 life hit adds up quick. How is it going in your deck? I've only tested in apprentice and that was my experience but with fewer cyclers initially.

[ronco]

I have the current above build from two posts up but swapped out the twisted abominations for hollow one (any vanilla cycler will do, perhaps this should be the street wraith spot) and mmay have pulled out a blasted landscape for another irrigated farmland. Crystal vein or ebon stronghold was posited as a budget alternative to the ancient tomb or city of traitors so if anyone wanted budget options that may work.

the deck runs fairly well most of the time. it plays like a fearless combo deck as there is currently no disruption although i'm having a real hard time finding a way to fit that in. Raven's Crime was initially in there but i found its pretty easy to play around on the other side. it really needs an unmask/duress/thoughtsieze/inquisition type card in it to really make sure the key spells get pushed through. The main win con here is living death for the pouncers, and if all 4 aren't in there should be a couple draggers one can leave in the hand and use song's mana to cycle then unearth after living death (and cycling them should spit out -1/-1 counters from the archfiends). It can go off surprisingly fast given that i don't think this version will ever be super competitive. It will steal games every now and then and catch people off guard, which is probably the key point to this deck.

more comments, thought i feel like a broken record but at least I am an educated one with lots of testing lol.

Lake of the dead continues to work for me. I don't know that a second one will fit though.

In my previous post I think i said 35 cyclers. That number works real well and you can bet your top dollar if cycling colored mana lands come out that don't come into play tapped they will go immediately into this deck and make it that much faster. The landcyclers seem to work well to keep the cycle going too. I think the balance is pretty good with 8 land cyclers and 11 (I think) fetchable lands. The only downside is this lessens the effect of songs as we are not dumping lands into the graveyard instead.

Transmute, while clunkier, seems to be marginally better to me than the tutor. neither is faster, inherently, but if there is enough songs/lake of the dead mana available it gets the card a turn faster. it has also on occasion pulled up a shadow of the grave when needed when my cycle ran dry. So i think therre is some merit here. Plus it is uncounterable, although that doesn't stop the opponent from countering the spell that gets tutored with it. I wonder if defense grid could find some spots in here? It can also be tutored too. If nothing else it will likely take a counter as bait.

As you can imagine the game plan hinges on getting the fluctuator out quickly OR having a handful of creatures to dump and get a hard casted living death out early and earn three the hard way. a couple creatures can be played for 2 and hollow one can come in cheaper in a pinch. Obviously it isn't the preferred way but if you don't get the cards you don't get the cards. I find vs burn or normal aggro decks if a flucs hit the field, this deck should win. It appears to be resilient, to a degree, to discard. Counter and faster combo are the chinks in the armor outside of shuffling variations where you just don't get what you need.

Long story short, we are into minor tweaks/individual preferences at this point i think as far as this particular build is concerned. I did pick up a few abandoned sarcophagus so that I can potentially test out other versions of the deck. Basically I was thinking a blend of the above plan but be more interactive in a control sense. Creatures could be cast from the yard as well as counters played or cycled (complicate, miscalculation, forsake the worldly, etc). Another avenue that someone else brought up was laboratory maniac who doesn't need to attack and can also win the turn it hits. it can be slightly more difficult to cast but with lotus petals it should be doable. This would negate the need entirely for living death and may give an extra slot or two for protection/disruption. Maybe i just need to sleeve that version up and see what happens lol. Anyway, it is definitely a fun casual combo deck if nothing else for its novelty.

[ronco]

going to try and re-work this deck a little bit. Going to work in git probes and cabal therapies and hollow one (mainly just to cast for free to flash back therpy). This gives us SOME protection and the probes act as cyclers for 2 life anyway. The challenge I think is going to be getting enough creatures in the yard for songs to work. in theory with therapy if the deck is a turn slower it may be enough protection to make it still work, and could definitely do it as it's going off. Maybe.

[Seraphim_ID]

Almost half a year passed since last update here.

Recently I've decided to visit local Legacy event with some "rogue" deck. Fluctuator was a "nice to play deck" for me since Urza Block (18 years ago, OMG!).

My result: 5-2

Decklist:


// 61 Maindeck

// Artifact [8]
4 Fluctuator
4 Lotus Petal

// Creature [25]
4 Viscera Dragger
2 Jhessian Zombies
2 Archfiend of Ifnir
4 Vile Manifestation
4 Igneous Pouncer
4 Cloud of Faeries
2 Pendrell Drake
2 Keeneye Aven
1 Laboratory Maniac

// Instant [5]
2 Shadow of the Grave
2 Songs of the Damned
1 Enlightened Tutor

// Sorcery [5]
1 Restless Dreams
1 Living Death
1 Exsanguinate
2 Unearth

// Lands [18]
4 Canyon Slough
4 Fetid Pools
4 Blasted Landscape
4 Irrigated Farmland
2 Polluted Mire

// Sideboard [15]
3 Duress (Should be 3 Thoughtseize for sure!)
2 Silence
1 Dispel
1 Pithing Needle
2 Echoing Truth
2 Hydroblast (The only useless here I think)
1 Shattering Spree
1 Dread of Night
1 Massacre


What can I say: first of all that was really fun. Not only for me but for most of the participants. Crowd around the table was almost every round.
Magic should be for fun. At least sometimes, isn't it?

Now few words about the build: I was scouting this thread for a long time, so thank you all for your thoughts and ideas! That was really helpful :)

The main point: I WANT Fluctuator ON STARTING HAND!
Here can (again) be the start of discussion about Enlightened Tutors, but our meta contains a pack of Chalices and Portents. Which makes this spell useless 80% of matches.
In my list there are 44 cyclers, BUT I fizzeled 4 times during the tournament. Too much I guess. And I want to reduce non-cyclers (MORE!).

I performed all the possible scenarios to win in this deck:
1. Vile Manifestation 28/4
2. Exsanguinate: -21 / +21
3. Living Death + 4 Igneous Pouncer
4. Laboratory Maniac + cycle, cycle, cycle

Just use the one you have first. And be ready to perform the second if the things will go wrong (FoW, removal etc).

Unearth+Cloud of Faeries gices you access to the needed color (yes, sometimes you need to play tapped land for this) if you are rolling the cycle and need to protect your victory almost righ now. Also you can discard your Laboratory Maniac and then return it back to draw the last card (may be 3-5 times in response to opponents actions).

If you are going to win with Laboratory Maniac -- be careful with the cards left in your library.

Basiclang cycling: even 6 might be too much. I often was in the situation when I found nothing. But that's not the point not to cycle Igneous Pouncer as it is the part of one of win conditions. All the tyme swampcycled Igneous Pouncer and islandcycled Jhessian Zombies.

First turn kill possible? Yes.

Won:
Burn 2-0
EldraziPost 2-1 (Story of the lost match: on the draw, Turn1: challice on 0, challice on 1; Turn 2: TKS, Turn3: challice on 2, GGs)
Miracles 2-1 (Lost to 3 FoW and 2 Counterspells in a row)
MonoBlack Myr Retriever combo 2-0
DnT 2-0 (First turn kill + Massacre)

Lost:
4c-Delver 1-2
4c-Delver 1-2

Have no idea how to play around huge hand desruption. Just ignore may be :)

[mistercakes]

curious about some card choices:

61 cards, why if the main goal is to opening hand fluctuator?

pendrell drake and keeneye before maximizing archfiend or hollow one? was casting the flyers relevant?

other than that, congrats! always happy to see fringe decks do well. i think the deck should probably be running 4 hollow one over the 4 blue guys. at worst you can just cycle them.

[Seraphim_ID]

61 cards, why if the main goal is to opening hand fluctuator?
Was unable to step over the wish to leave at least one Enlightened Tutor in deck.
But as the result -- he was always to side out.


pendrell drake and keeneye before maximizing archfiend or hollow one? was casting the flyers relevant?
In one game it gave me one more turn. It didn't helped, but still.
Archfiend of Ifnir is good when you need to clean the board. But if it is on the table there are only two scenarios:
1. You fizzled (again) and opp has a creature board (I.E. no Belcher, but goblins are on)
2. You resolved Living Death and no matter there is only one Archfiend of Ifnir or three.

Hollow One -- I just do not have them. And had not much time to get them. This is a step to upgrade the deck I guess.



other than that, congrats! always happy to see fringe decks do well.
Thanks!
Surprise effect worked well. Opponents had no idea about sideboarding options as they had no idea about win conditions.
Gravehate? Ok. Silence, Fluctuator, Lab.Maniac (+pray).
Disenchant? I can cycle in response and then other options (including new Fluctuator)
So some of the Opponents prefered to keep their MB as it is (instead of inserting bad cards) :)

[Seraphim_ID]

Made some soft tests with Hollow One.

Additional choice appeared: if the Hollow One is the last card with cycle in hand should we continue or not?
4 out of 5 times: Play Hollow One and provoke your opponent was the best option.
As I mentioned before: sad to be fizzled (and draw three Fluctuator in a row).

Deck became more agressive.
Now we can perform additional alpha strike with a couple of Hollow Ones and a pack of Viscera Draggers.

Idea to think over: 1-4 Serum Powder replacing Enlightened Tutors. They are also cards without cycling, but allow to dig deeper to get Fluctuator in starting hand (almost like "Raging Goblin, Shoal, Shoal" did long time ago).

[Michael Keller]

I always believed that Fluctuator decks should run Serum Powder. I mean, it’s nowhere near on par with the power level of something like Vintage Dredge, but on the flip side, that deck relies heavily on Bazaar as an engine to facilitate the deck. Fluctuator is really the same thing in that regard, and you always want one in your opening hand.

[mistercakes]

i was looking at that list again that seraphim posted and you also probably want to test street wraith. if you can't manage to find a fluctuator, you can at least use this to cycle and hope to find one sooner.

[Seraphim_ID]

Street Wraiths were last cards with cycling I removed from the deck.
The reason was quite simple: Burn.deck

If we do not make the wheels turning early on against Burn, I do not want to cycle for the cost of hp.
2hp -- zone of huge risk at turn 2, 4hp -- we are almost dead before we can resolve any of the options we are going to win with (All of them are on sorcery speed).

Unfortunately in our local meta there are too much of Burns, so I have to deal with that.

[mistercakes]

if anyone still likes playing a bit of a glass cannony tier 2 deck, i've got my list and i'm pretty happy w/ the numbers on it.

the only card i'd prob change is a wander in death for a 4th vile manifestation


// 60 Maindeck
// 8 Artifact
4 Fluctuator
4 Lotus Petal

// 17 Creature
4 Twisted Abomination
3 Vile Manifestation
4 Hollow One
4 Viscera Dragger
2 Street Wraith

// 12 Instant
4 Songs of the Damned
4 Shadow of the Grave
4 Dark Ritual

// 18 Land
4 Blasted Landscape
4 Fetid Pools
4 Canyon Slough
4 Polluted Mire
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Ancient Tomb

// 5 Sorcery
3 Dark Petition
1 Temporal Extortion
1 Wander in Death


// 15 Sideboard
// 2 Creature
SB: 2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

// 4 Land
SB: 4 Shelldock Isle

// 9 Sorcery
SB: 4 Thoughtseize
SB: 4 Doomsday
SB: 1 Duress


strategy is pretty standard.

Innovations

dark petition: finds fluctuator and/or shadow of the grave. requires 2 instants/sorcs in graveyard to get BBB post resolution, which is why the singleton wander in death is played over a 4th vile manifestion.
temporal extortion: actually is a win con that will win the "same turn". costs BBBB. any player may pay half their life rounded up. (20 --> 10). If they pass the turn, you can just cast your guys that you've returned to your hand and attack for 20+. if they pay half their life, unearth 4 viscera draggers and attack for 12.


sb:
4 doomsday + package + discard.
dark petition already works really well with doomsday. you will not win the same turn with this package. it's a pretty straight forward pass the turn pile.

again, this is still a pretty low tier 2 deck, but it can be very fun.

hope people will find some of these innovations to be helpful if they care to play this deck.

if you want you can run a laboratory maniac in the sb for a same turn doomsday, but the mana requirements are very difficult and you need fluctuator + several cards in hand with cycling.


-Rob

[R3ndr0c]

The new Mausoleum Secrets could be a straight up 2 mana tutor in this deck. Do ya'll think this could be a great new addition?

[mistercakes]

could be okay, but it doesn't really help the main issue with this deck, which is finding a fluctuator.

[ronco]

Seraphim:
The deck is definitely fun. I've deconstructed my deck due to lack of opportunities to play it and wanted to sleeve up something else instead... too many graveyard reanimator style decks haha. But i do have some comments:
-Hollow one is nice to have. I find the bonus in casting him is if i need a blocker or a threat to disrupt the opponent. Most of the time i just cycled it. but i also plan to kill via living death/igneous pouncer.
-Why the drake/aven over other/better cycle creatures? I see you said it kept you alive once but i'm not quite getting how that would vs others, unless you simply hard cast it and only had 4 mana.
-My build attempted to living death out 4 igneous pouncers, with no real backup plan so it was SUPER glass cannon but it worked well to that end, often turn 3-4.
-I snuck in one lake of the dead which seems to be perfect because most of the lands come into play tapped and most are swamp subtypes so i could still get 5 mana with it on turn 3. unearth +faerie might be your version of this and that may be enough.
-I tried the E. tutor and didn't find it to be very good in terms of consistency with white mana. So i went the transmute route of shred memory with the added bonus of going right into your hand. whatever you search for can be cast off lake mana or if you have enough in the yard, songs of the damned mana. It finds fluctuator, but it also finds shadow of the grave for you, as well as any of the 2 mana cycle creatures (and as a bonus, if you cast shadow, the transmute effect is a discard so that comes back too). Lastly, you can cast it to beat other reanimator type decks, but that never really came up as it was too slow, but you never know.
-i really like the landcycle cards (swampcycling, etc) becuase it essentially guarantees ill replace it with at least one more cycle. good for when i think i can go off that turn.



mistercakes doesn't use the living death route and that (his) may be a more robust strategy. having a backup X spell is probably not a terrible idea if you run 4x songs.

i never got around to working the cabal therapy or probes in (too late now) but best of luck and keep us all posted!

[R3ndr0c]

could be okay, but it doesn't really help the main issue with this deck, which is finding a fluctuator.

Ya, I read the card wrong I think, didn't see that it needed to be a black card. Though maybe that's still useful, it''s a 2 mana tutor.

I think you should be playing more STreet Wraiths and Gitaxian Probe, so you can thin your deck. It's good for these combo decks. Also Git Probe in grave helps turn on Dark Petition.,... Oh w8 Git Probe was banned... Shoot. That's too bad.

They really should not have banned Git Probe, it hit Storm too.

[mistercakes]

storm is still very good without probe. speaking of which:

// 60 Maindeck
// 8 Artifact
4 Fluctuator
4 Lotus Petal

// 18 Creature
4 Twisted Abomination
4 Vile Manifestation
4 Hollow One
4 Street Wraith
2 Viscera Dragger

// 12 Instant
4 Songs of the Damned
4 Shadow of the Grave
4 Dark Ritual

// 18 Land
4 Blasted Landscape
4 Fetid Pools
4 Canyon Slough
4 Polluted Mire
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Ancient Tomb

// 4 Sorcery
3 Dark Petition
1 Tendrils of Agony


// 15 Sideboard
// 4 Artifact
SB: 4 Lion's Eye Diamond

// 5 Instant
SB: 4 Cabal Ritual
SB: 1 Rain of Filth

// 6 Sorcery
SB: 4 Infernal Tutor
SB: 2 Past in Flames

lacks protection but who cares, with the sb plan you should be aiming for a turn 3 or greater. haven't goldfished a ton of games but it seems fun.

[mistercakes]

if you like goldfishing on cockatrice:

// 60 Maindeck
// 12 Artifact
4 Fluctuator
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

// 8 Creature
4 Street Wraith
4 Twisted Abomination

// 10 Instant
1 Shadow of the Grave
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth
4 Cabal Ritual

// 18 Land
4 Blasted Landscape
4 Fetid Pools
4 Canyon Slough
4 Polluted Mire
1 Bayou
1 Badlands

// 12 Sorcery
3 Dark Petition
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Past in Flames
2 Life from the Loam
4 Night's Whisper

has a lot of fun plays. no reason to play this over ANT or TES but it's cool to see that it can actually combo pretty effectively.

[Cire]

could be okay, but it doesn't really help the main issue with this deck, which is finding a fluctuator.

I'm not really positive why we moved away from enlightened tutor given that this is the deck's main concern. The deck doesn't have other tutors or card search to make sure it gets fluctuator otherwise.

[mistercakes]

that's kind of why i was tinkering around with dark ritual/cabal ritual and dark petition. it allows you to put a fluctuator in play with a B remaining.

[mistercakes]

// 60 Maindeck
// 9 Artifact
3 Fluctuator
4 Lotus Petal
2 Serum Powder

// 16 Creature
4 Vile Manifestation
4 Twisted Abomination
4 Archfiend of Ifnir
4 Street Wraith

// 11 Instant
4 Shadow of the Grave
3 Songs of the Damned
4 Dark Ritual

// 17 Land
4 Blasted Landscape
4 Fetid Pools
4 Canyon Slough
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Mire

// 4 Planeswalker
4 Karn, the Great Creator

// 3 Sorcery
3 Wander in Death


// 9 Sideboard
// 6 Artifact
SB: 1 Trinisphere
SB: 1 Fluctuator
SB: 1 Mycosynth Lattice
SB: 1 Desecrated Tomb
SB: 1 Abandoned Sarcophagus
SB: 1 Chrome Mox

// 2 Creature
SB: 1 Molten-Tail Masticore
SB: 1 Hollow One


still tinkering around with it, but this version is pretty fun. hopefully the other brewers can make this a bit better.

[Cire]

Haha, New Karn is so good he can even slot into a deck like this. Great Idea!

[mistercakes]

what's cool here is karn can function as its own win condition, and another fluctuator. (albeit slow).

the deck can generate a ton of mana if it gets going.

[mistercakes]

// 60 Maindeck
// 7 Artifact
3 Fluctuator
4 Lotus Petal

// 17 Creature
3 Vile Manifestation
4 Twisted Abomination
3 Archfiend of Ifnir
4 Street Wraith
3 Hollow One

// 13 Instant
4 Shadow of the Grave
4 Songs of the Damned
4 Dark Ritual
1 Spoils of the Vault

// 19 Land
4 Blasted Landscape
4 Fetid Pools
4 Canyon Slough
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Mire
2 Ancient Tomb

// 4 Planeswalker
4 Karn, the Great Creator


// 15 Sideboard
// 11 Artifact
SB: 1 Trinisphere
SB: 1 Fluctuator
SB: 1 Mycosynth Lattice
SB: 1 Desecrated Tomb
SB: 3 Defense Grid
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Mindslaver
SB: 2 Alhammarret's Archive

// 2 Creature
SB: 1 Hollow One
SB: 1 Walking Ballista

// 2 Sorcery
SB: 2 Living Death


not sure if it's optimal, but it's a lot of fun. the 2nd archive is in there for grindy matchups, this way at least all of your cycling draws 2. this deck can cast 2-4 karns in one turn with a lot of mana. is there any 2 card artifact combos that just win the game?

[ronco]

[cards]

not sure if it's optimal, but it's a lot of fun. the 2nd archive is in there for grindy matchups, this way at least all of your cycling draws 2. this deck can cast 2-4 karns in one turn with a lot of mana. is there any 2 card artifact combos that just win the game?

Painter's servant/Grindstone comes to mind first.

EDIT: I guess that isn't fool proof for the odd Progenitus or more common Eldrazi deck that always has the ability to put at least one card back in, but should work for most cases. I don't know if a Leyline/Helm combo would be a better idea or not. You'll have plenty of drawing/black mana to make it work I would think.

[mistercakes]

almost a year, but i think this is worth the necro.

credit goes to Caleb Gannon on youtube for doing some videos on a pauper deck. maybe he can contribute on here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkOSIaWgfMM is where i took the idea.

if you don't feel like watching, then the deck more or less passes the turn once or twice, just cycling for B or 1 each time. Once it can start to generate enough mana with some ritual effects it uses the storm card to refill the hand, and using more rituals go off continuously. The coolest part of this deck is that the win condition is the drannath stinger. this means you can return it to your hand, cast a few of them and cycle until you win.


maindeck:

4 Drannith Healer
4 Drannith Stinger
4 Imposing Vantasaur
4 Flourishing Fox
4 Street Wraith
4 Songs of the Damned
4 Manamorphose
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Tinder Wall
4 Fluctuator
4 Lotus Petal
4 Shadow of the Grave
4 Reaping the Graves
4 Land Grant
3 Forest
2 Bayou


sb:

1 Zirda, the Dawnwaker
1 Hollow One


old fluctuator build:


needed fluctuator in first or 2nd turn.

needed fluctuator to resolve.

needed to draw enough cycling cards and potentially mana sources AND shadow of the grave to go off. otherwise some versions could go all in and have a very very constrained deck building approach by having as few non-cycling cards as possible.

big advantage is potentially a turn 1 deck, albeit quite fragile.



this version:


has quite a lot of redundancy, as it doesn't require fluctuator to win at all.

ritual effects aren't so useful until around turn 2 or 3.

fluctuator only benefits 19 cards in the deck.

gets 7-8 effects to fill hand back up.

can also actually cast hollow one at times by cycling 3 times for only 3 mana. (or less w/ street wraith).

zirda only playable if you side out the fluctuators, but still an option.

might be potentially a more serious deck (still tier 2, but who knows?)

[gngpostalsrvc]

Super stoked that you're revisiting this deck!

IRC, Tinder Wall and Manamorphose were pretty explosive in the pauper version of the deck and they're even easier to cast in Legacy thanks to Bayou.

Horror of the Broken Lands or Flourishing Fox are probably better than Architects of Will since you can always cast them as a back-up plan.

[mistercakes]

thanks for that. didn't realize fox was another 1cc colorless cycle effect. deck can pretty efficiently cycle now without fluctuator. still not sure how many of the B cycle guys the deck should run (just to increase the number of cycling cards in the deck). hard to say.

[mistercakes]

what about revisiting thran turbine.

now with all of these 1 mana cycling cards, being able to cycle twice each upkeep for free is pretty significant. thoughts? the secondary engine is much better with this.

thoughts?

[Mr. Safety]

Is Drannith Stinger the only win condition for the deck?

I like Thran Turbine, it's essentially Sol Ring for cycling. I messed around with a mono-black cycling deck for a little while that played Living Death and Mogis's Marauder as win conditions. Stinger is definitely a much cleaner way to win the game, especially as cycling doesn't really allow interaction. You can win in response to a removal spell, even 2 if you have enough cyclers in hand to continue the chain.

So what does Thran Turbine do over multiple turns for you? Or are you just hoping for a 1-turn +2 mana?

EDIT: I don't think you can play Turbine with Zirda as your companion, it doesn't have any activated abilities.

[mistercakes]

correct, zirda won't work with fluctuator or turbine as a companion. i think that's fine to cut zirda.

there's a few different options. i think you can likely just run lightning rift as well if you want to go to a slower rate.

if you want a more explosive kind of single turn, then i think reaping the graves is the important card. in legacy you might be able to also use life from the loam or some other card that can return multiple (that doesn't require you to discard the cards THAT turn, which shadow of the grave does require) after 3-4 turns of cycling (and maybe stalling the game with discard/removal/or something else) you can chain a few ritual effects and cast it. once you have filled your hand back up you can cycle until you see fit. it could also run the blue enchantment that makes guys for every 6 or 8 cards cycled (i can't recall). however i think keeping it to 2 colors is a lot safer. (stinger + lightning rift is very cool). for example with rift, turn 1 turbine, turn 2 rift, turn 3 you are getting at least 2 damage for no mana, but potentially 4 damage for 2 mana (and at a cost of 0 cards, which is the important part).


it will take a little time to figure it out, but i think the key for making this deck into something people can actually play is determining how the deck can function in a slower manner. this is never going to be as fast as ANT TES Reanimator, so the ability to have consistency without cantrips is what should make this deck appealing.

[mistercakes]

4 Drannith Healer
4 Drannith Stinger
4 Imposing Vantasaur
3 Reaping the Graves
4 Flourishing Fox
2 Thoughtseize
2 Shadow of the Grave
3 Dark Ritual
2 Songs of the Damned
2 Lightning Rift
4 Street Wraith
4 Fluctuator
4 Thran Turbine
1 Karakas
2 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Swamp
4 Badlands
4 Plateau
4 Scrubland



i'd give something like this a shot. there might be some ways to get the full playset of thoughtseize in there pretty easily. i also thought about cutting some lands for aether vial, but i'm not sure there's enough low cc guys to support it (12). t1 fox is also pretty strong. you can potentially go t1 fox, t2 fluctuator and win off of that if you're lucky. (the deck might be able to run less than 18 lands b/c of all the cycling. i haven't tested at all.)

[Mr. Safety]

Is Mausoleum Secrets worth revisiting for the deck? It can only get black cards, but that means all of the rituals, Thoughtseize for protection, and possibly an alternative win condition like Living Death.

[mistercakes]

Secrets could be good since it's an instant that can find more of the storm card. Don't like LD.

Secrets is actually very good. You can turn 1 turbine. Turn 2 cycle twice and on their end step find a shadow or ritual effect. You can also run surgical after sb pretty safely. (after turn 2 it becomes a lot better)

[mistercakes]

working on it a bit with a friend


4 Drannith Healer
4 Horror of the Broken Lands
4 Drannith Stinger
4 Imposing Vantasaur
4 Flourishing Fox
2 Monstrous Carabid
4 Street Wraith
3 Shadow of the Grave
4 Reaping the Graves
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Lotus Petal
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 Songs of the Damned
2 Fluctuator
3 Swamp
1 Scrubland
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
1 Bloodstained Mire

SB: kind of random at this point

4 Hollow One
4 Thoughtseize
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
3 Unmask

[FTW]

Cycling doesn't build Storm count, so is Tendrils even good here? You'll just have the rituals and Shadow/Reaping.

Once you have that much mana, is Living Death better?

[mistercakes]

you only need 9 other spells. petals are pretty significant.

that being said living death does allow for some nasty turn 1's where you can pass the turn with a fairly significant number of creatures in play.

(cons: LD can be FOW'd, you can die the following turn to combo)

[FTW]

The con with Tendrils is it's a dead card under a certain Storm count, and it can be countered by Veil of Summer (and sometimes by Swords to Plowshares).

All Storm decks (ANT, TES, Belcher, Ruby) run Empty the Warrens as a mini-Storm option in case you can't reach a high enough count for lethal damage. Empty also plays around Veil. With Tendrils only, it's very narrow.

Living Death would be the equivalent of Empty. If you can't Storm 10, you can make a bunch of bodies to win if you untap. It does lose to Force, but realistically so does the Tendrils line because they can catch you on a Songs or Shadow to cut you off mid-combo.

[mistercakes]

I think the deck can be adapted a little bit, running maindeck mono black guys over 2 Carabid. Then you can just cast all the black creatures. Living Death seems redundant in those situations. There may be better options than LD and tendrils. Will give it some thought. (you can also cast Stinger and just cycle some cards too, but getting the red is more challenging.)

Oversold cemetery out of the sb seems great too, or tortured existence.




4 Flourishing Fox
4 Drannith Healer
4 Drannith Stinge
4 Horror of the Broken Lands
4 Street Wraith
4 Imposing Vantasaur

4 Dark Ritual
3 Scheming Symmetry
4 Songs of the Damned
4 Cabal Ritual
3 Shadow of the Grave
3 Reaping the Graves
1 Tendrils of Agony

4 Lotus Petal
2 Fluctuator

1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Marsh Flats
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
3 Swamp
1 Verdant Catacombs


SB:

4 Thoughtseize
2 Tortured Existence
1 Oversold Cemetery
4 Unmask
4 Hollow One

[mistercakes]

figured i'd bump this thread again. having some more fun goldfishing with scheming symmetry


4 Flourishing Fox
4 Drannith Healer
4 Drannith Stinger
4 Horror of the Broken Lands
4 Street Wraith
4 Imposing Vantasaur
4 Dark Ritual
4 Scheming Symmetry
4 Songs of the Damned
4 Cabal Ritual
2 Lotus Petal
4 Shadow of the Grave
1 Reaping the Graves
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Fluctuator
3 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta


still not 100% sure about the lands. any help here would be appreciated!

[ESG]

figured i'd bump this thread again. having some more fun goldfishing with scheming symmetry


4 Flourishing Fox
4 Drannith Healer
4 Drannith Stinger
4 Horror of the Broken Lands
4 Street Wraith
4 Imposing Vantasaur
4 Dark Ritual
4 Scheming Symmetry
4 Songs of the Damned
4 Cabal Ritual
2 Lotus Petal
4 Shadow of the Grave
1 Reaping the Graves
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Fluctuator
3 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta


still not 100% sure about the lands. any help here would be appreciated!

Looks pretty satisfying, especially for a budget deck. If I proxy it up this week to test, I'll give you some feedback. My initial reaction is that Flameblade Adept could be a serviceable win condition, either in the main or in the side, in the absence of a Fluctuator. The deck is obviously going to be humming with a Fluctuator in play, but I immediately think about what happens if it gets countered or discarded on Turn 1. My suspicion is that a couple copies of Songs of the Damned can be trimmed. Board plans could involve Gurmag Angler, Rotting Regisaur, and/or Bitterblossom.

[mistercakes]

Swamps can also be a combination of plateaus and badlands to make things castable. The menace guy is also a decent option. I'm not as crazy about the black cycling guy as he does require B.

I'd like angler more if there wasn't so many deathtouch guys.

Ritual, symmetry, street wraith is a really nice play for this deck.

[ESG]

Swamps can also be a combination of plateaus and badlands to make things castable. The menace guy is also a decent option. I'm not as crazy about the black cycling guy as he does require B.

I'd like angler more if there wasn't so many deathtouch guys.

Ritual, symmetry, street wraith is a really nice play for this deck.

Yes, Street Wraith is nice combo there.

I have to say, from initial testing, Chalice at 1 is quite a beating. There are so few lands in the deck that casting Fluctuator is not a given if you can't cast Dark Ritual or Scheming Symmetry. I think Horror of the Broken Lands is a dead draw too often and needs to be something that's free with Fluctuator. Reaping the Graves is such a cool card, but it needs to cost less mana.

Edit: Mana is a significant bottleneck, so I do think the deck wants a full playset of Songs of the Damned. It's much better than Cabal Ritual in this deck. I think the density of cycling cards needs to be higher as well to maximize the chance of finding Shadow of the Grave. The lands might need to be cycling lands. Running a greater number of lands would allow you to run Mox Diamond, which would also enable Turn 1 Flourishing Fox, which could represent a Turn 2 or Turn 3 kill with a Fluctuator, even if they have Leyline of the Void postboard.

I started looking through other cycling cards, and Hollow One is an auto-include, IMO. It's free to cycle with Fluctuator and gives you another angle of attack.

[mistercakes]

i agree with Hollow One. the deck was still just being optimized for goldfishing. it's a great card and free to cast most of the time, even without a fluctuator. it's totally reasonable to go t1 dark ritual, 3 cycling effects and cast it. (even better if you draw a 2nd or 3rd). i had the singleton reaping only b/c it is effectively a way to refill the hand on a turn where you haven't actually discarded anything on that turn.

to play around chalice, mox is a decent option. it also allows for turn 1 mox -> land -> play land, cycle 2 cards and cast hollow one.

if playing that much mana, then it might make sense to cut dark ritual entirely and just rely on cabal ritual + songs of the damned. it's always tricky to say without actual testing. i tend to prefer a deck like to be okay with losing game 1 to chalice effects. it's always going to remain a tier 2 deck.

[the Thin White Duke]

I'm really digging the new versions of the deck. Instead of Hollow One I am wondering about Twisted Abomination. Seems like a good way to pull the lands out of the library. I'm not sure if that would allow the removal of a couple fetches?
Playing more than one Scheming Symmetry is pretty hilarious when your opponent can't draw that top card. Good call on fitting in that card.
This is a fun (inexpensive) deck.

[Barook]

No Unearth? It's black, can bring back something like a cycled Drannith Stinger or Flourishing Fox as Plan B and it has cycling :2: to boot which plays excellently with Fluctuator.

[mistercakes]

I'm really digging the new versions of the deck. Instead of Hollow One I am wondering about Twisted Abomination. Seems like a good way to pull the lands out of the library. I'm not sure if that would allow the removal of a couple fetches?
Playing more than one Scheming Symmetry is pretty hilarious when your opponent can't draw that top card. Good call on fitting in that card.
This is a fun (inexpensive) deck.

It actually wasn't my idea. I saw it on someone else's list on a random discord. However it wasn't really streamlined and the deck was doing a lot of weird things. Great observation for that person with the tutor though.

[Memories of the Time]

https://i.ibb.co/cDFmPbX/2020-06-30-12-29-17.png (https://ibb.co/cDFmPbX)

To update, this is what i want to play my next league with the deck. It's so fun to play with it that i want to improve and try its many routes =)
Plus, i feel that the deck has such a strong CA engine that it can really do something good with the new cards
Main points of discussion: Chrome Mox over some ritual, the sideboard (mainly)
And yes, Symmetry is awesome =)

[mistercakes]

really nice to see that the deck is evolving with some legit testing. chrome mox is a really good idea. i was thinking about it some more and it might make sense to actually run them over the lotus petals. this way you can maximize your number of imprint-able cards and also not have to reduce too many cycling effects.

[ReAnimator]

Vile Manifestation might be better than Horror of Broken lands, in that, it's super cheap, has colourless cycling and hits hard too, i'm using it in my Modern cycling deck and quite like it, works well with unearth too.

[mistercakes]

i wouldn't play a playset, but it could be okay. the 2 mana cycling is pretty prohibitive.

[Vacrix]

the deck runs fairly well most of the time. it plays like a fearless combo deck as there is currently no disruption although i'm having a real hard time finding a way to fit that in. Raven's Crime was initially in there but i found its pretty easy to play around on the other side. it really needs an unmask/duress/thoughtsieze/inquisition type card in it to really make sure the key spells get pushed through. The main win con here is living death for the pouncers, and if all 4 aren't in there should be a couple draggers one can leave in the hand and use song's mana to cycle then unearth after living death (and cycling them should spit out -1/-1 counters from the archfiends). It can go off surprisingly fast given that i don't think this version will ever be super competitive. It will steal games every now and then and catch people off guard, which is probably the key point to this deck.

Raven's Crime + Bone Miser works like an analog Skirge Familiar and creates a lot of storm, particularly with Shadow of the Grave. For me its been an excellent way to generate a lot of mana post-ad nauseam/necropotence/necrologia in EDH. Its also 4 mana cheaper than Miser/Familiar and you can Entomb either Bone Miser with Reanimation or Raven's Crime in order to start making mana and storm by discarding your own lands.

Also a weird interaction is discarding Dryad Arbor hits multiple triggers on Bone Miser.

[mistercakes]

Will fix tags later. I would try this version out next. Was nice to see the deck still has legs.

4 Drannith Healer
4 Horror of the Broken Lands
4 Drannith Stinger
4 Imposing Vantasaur
4 Flourishing Fox
1 Scheming Symmetry
1 Thran Turbine
4 Street Wraith
1 Carpet of Flowers
4 Shadow of the Grave
4 Reaping the Graves
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Lotus Petal
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 Songs of the Damned
1 Fluctuator
2 Swamp
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
1 Bloodstained Mire

Sideboard

1 Veil of Summer
4 Thoughtseize
1 Bayou
2 Carpet of Flowers
4 Hollow One
1 Snuff Out
2 Opposition Agent