Commander 2017 Edition

[Barook]

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/announcing-commander-2017-edition-2017-04-18

We get an earlier release in Paper (August 25, 2017, MTGO is still November 2017) and instead of 5 colored decks, we get 4 Tribal ones.

I don't like the focus on Tribal. That said, it's interesting that C17 is going to take the slot that is normally used for FTV boxes. Makes you wonder what they have planned for November.

[Dice_Box]

Wow, that is shockingly close to my Birthday, maybe as a gift they will give me a Goblin worthy of play in Legacy. Come on, its not Christmas, I don't have to be good for you to get me something nice.

[sadface]

Wow, that is shockingly close to my Birthday, maybe as a gift they will give me a Goblin worthy of play in Legacy. Come on, its not Christmas, I don't have to be good for you to get me something nice.

All I want is a black-bordered Goblin Settler.

[Echelon]

Decks based on Magic's most popular, and interesting, tribes.

Maybe Elves! will get some new toys.

[danyul]

I miss the days when you could catch Merfolk, Elves, and Goblins at the top tables.

Make Legacy Great Again.

Any guesses on the fourth tribe? I assume the three typical ones to be a lock.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Wow, that is shockingly close to my Birthday, maybe as a gift they will give me a Goblin worthy of play in Legacy. Come on, its not Christmas, I don't have to be good for you to get me something nice.
I have 2 hopes!

The first is that Goblins are one of the 4 tribes.
The second is that the 'tribal' mechanic is used even though they no longer support the card type in Standard-sets.

[Dice_Box]

Maybe. I think Goblins and Elves are a shoe in, what do we think the other two are?

[Ace/Homebrew]

Maybe. I think Goblins and Elves are a shoe in, what do we think the other two are?
Wasn't the mono-green Freyalise deck basically an Elf tribal deck? and Ezuri had an elf theme...
I think they might pass on Elves this time around.

They might even have some 'big end' tribes like Angels, Demons, or Dragons.
Hopefully they don't cop out and do something super generic like Humans...

Either way, there has to be significant support already existing for the tribe to make a coherent, playable EDH deck (since only 56 of the cards will be new-to-Magic).
99 cards. 38 lands, so 61 non-lands. Probably about 2/3rds of the non-lands will be creatures. So about 40 per deck, split across an EDH mana-curve (topping out around 8 or 9 CMC).

Demons are actually starting to feel like a pretty good candidate. Especially if the commander is one of the Demons Liliana made her 'deal' with.

[CptHaddock]

Maybe. I think Goblins and Elves are a shoe in, what do we think the other two are?

Slivers? Isn't that one of the casual favorite tribes?

[Barook]

Maybe. I think Goblins and Elves are a shoe in, what do we think the other two are?
Merfolk, Dragons, Angels - and maybe Zombies or Demons.

We have to look at it from Commander perspective.

[LeoCop 90]

I already know how this is gonna end. I will be eagerly waiting for legacy playable goblins and then:

-A) goblins won't even be one of the tribes
-B) every goblin will suck

Gotta hope, though. Seriously, no relevant goblin has been printed since krenko, mob boss. And last 3 blocks (shadows,kaladesh,amonkhet), have been on planes with no goblin. I almost felt offended when i saw red creatures in kaladesh were gremlins and not goblins.

[Ace/Homebrew]

For people into Magic lore, are there any major characters that belong to a tribe which have never seen print on a card?
The 4 Commanders are definitely going to be new cards.

I believe Serra was a planeswalker, so she's probably out of contention as the commander of an Angel deck...


Regarding my 'Demon' comment above, it looks like the only 2 of Lili's 4 demons waiting for a card are Razaketh and Belzenlok.
And the MTG Wiki for Razaketh says he(?)'s on Amonkhet.

[Julian23]

Certain Planeswalkers can be Commanders. Serra would be an amazing Commander for Angel Tribal.

However, it feels WotC isn't really fond of all the pre-Jacetice League lore.

[joven]

Well, I think August is a bad time for a Commander release. Christmas time was way better.
I'm almost glad that they are doing just some tribal decks.

But what tribes will it be?
Elves were already in Freyalise Deck.
Goblins is very likely.
They did a lot of Zombies stuff in Commander Decks already (Gisa, Geralf, ...). And Zombies get a lot of attention in Standard-legal sets in recent times. I like Zombies very much, but there is almost too much stuff already out there.

But what else is there?
Merfolk?
Soldiers?
Treefolk would be cool.
Vampires?
I don't like Slivers, but I probably wouldn't mind in a Commander release.
Humans would really be very generic.
EDIT: Cats!?

[staticgripeed]

One of the tribes could be humans, given how much WotC has been pushing humans in Standard and in recent supplementals ie Conspiracy 2 (Sanctum Prelate, Recruiter of the Guard).

Plus then they have an excuse to reprint Containment Priest for real (not in Invocation form).

[Julian23]

I think giraffes would make for a fantastic tribe. They're so majestic and flavorful. I think you would give them a choice of Reach, Trample and/or Plainswalk. Their tribal gimmick would be the ability to eat Treefolk creatures or something.

[Dice_Box]

Certain Planeswalkers can be Commanders. Serra would be an amazing Commander for Angel Tribal.

However, it feels WotC isn't really fond of all the pre-Jacetice League lore.
We did get Feldon a few years back.

[Megadeus]

Elves, Merfolk, Goblins, Zombies.

[Scott]

Maybe the fae?

Or elementals. That's a popular tribe of general, innit?

[Barook]

I believe Serra was a planeswalker, so she's probably out of contention as the commander of an Angel deck...
On the flipside, people were disappointed that Serra wasn't the Commander for the Mono-W deck. And as Freyalise has shown, they don't give a shit about the "Oldwalkers are too powerful to print"-dogma anymore.

[Ace/Homebrew]

I might or might not be a bit drunk, but I think giraffes would make for a fantastic tribe. They're so majestic and flavorful. I think you would give them a choice of Reach, Trample and/or Plainswalk. Their tribal gimmick would be the ability to eat Treefolk creatures or something.
It is a shame you won't understand this, but trust me it's funny. :tongue:

April the Giraffe :3::g::w:
Legendary Creature - Giraffe
~ enters the battlefield with a pregnancy counter on it.
Reach
:3::g:, Remove a pregnancy counter; Put a 1/1 baby
giraffe token into play and melt America's heart.
4/6


http://www.aprilthegiraffe.com/

[CptHaddock]

I hope green is Auroch, it's been a while since we've had a good Auroch printed. :cry:

[PirateKing]

Minataurs! Come on $100 Didgeridoo, we can do it!

Since it's not color wheel based, I don't think it'd be monocolor tribes like Elves or Goblins. You'd need like RW Soldiers or BW Vampires or something.

[hymnyou]

yes pump up the tribes! Rather roll my dice on focused tribal eternal cards than most of what the edh sets focus on

[Cire]

Why are people assuming mono-colored tribes? If it's tribes it could be something like this:

BR: Goblins
UW: Faries
WUBRG: Elementals
G: Treefolk

[Dice_Box]

I think Goblins needs a good Jund coloured commander. I could see a multi coloured Legendary running the show. I just don't know how you best Krenko as head Goblin though. He's a boss.

[Richard Cheese]

Why are people assuming mono-colored tribes? If it's tribes it could be something like this:

BR: Goblins
UW: Faries
WUBRG: Elementals
G: Treefolk

Except everyone knows Treefolk are Gbw.

It occurred to me that a lot of popular tribes crossover with Black. Goblins, Faeries, Treefolk, Angels, Elves...probably more. I guess it's just too easy from a writing/design perspective to make an evil or undead version of something.

[Megadeus]

If it's 25th Anniversary though I feel like they would celebrate tribes that had support from the beginning in Goblins, Zombies, Merfolk, and Elves

[Barook]

I think Goblins needs a good Jund coloured commander. I could see a multi coloured Legendary running the show. I just don't know how you best Krenko as head Goblin though. He's a boss.
Well, there's Shattergang Brothers, but that one isn't particularly good.


Why are people assuming mono-colored tribes? If it's tribes it could be something like this:

BR: Goblins
UW: Faries
WUBRG: Elementals
G: Treefolk
Are those actually tribes that are popular in Commander?

[thefringthing]

It's pretty obviously going to be Metathrans, Cowards, Pilots, and Pests.

[bruizar]

Orcs, Goblins, Kobolds and Dwarves..

4 Red commander decks, that would be fun :-) Plus I need some relevant orcs next to my lumberjack

[Cire]

Are those actually tribes that are popular in Commander?

Those were just examples - I was just wondering why we were assuming it was all going to be mono-colored. But that said, what are considered the "popular" tribes in commander?

[Kage]

Pick up your Didgeridoos and Steamflogger Bosses, folks!

[CutthroatCasual]

People elsewhere are speculating:


Slivers
Elves
Goblins
Merfolk


I really hope they don't do Slivers and instead do Angels.

[Lemnear]

Tribe: Phyrexians
Facecard: Yawgmoth

Tribe: Angels
Facecard: Serra

Make it happen!

[H]

It's pretty obviously going to be Metathrans, Cowards, Pilots, and Pests.

No love for Beebles, Homarids and Brushwaggs? :mad:

[joven]

In my opinion Angels, Demons, Dragons aren't tribes.
Humans and Elementals are too generic for my taste.
And I don't see Merfolk being interesting in Commander.

[Scott]

I really hope they don't do Slivers and instead do Angels.

Depends on if the Slivers look like http://i.imgur.com/jCs6JaN.png and say "All Slivers" or look like http://i.imgur.com/Ne8WaxO.png and say "Sliver creatures you control."

If it's what I'm sure it'd be, yeah, not as excited about Slivers as I would be.

[Barook]

If it's what I'm sure it'd be, yeah, not as excited about Slivers as I would be.
IIRC, they admitted that the appearence redesign was a mistake. I doubt they would change the "Sliver creatures you control."-part, though.

[hymnyou]

'Powerful and interesting' they did clue in on. I'd imagine powerful is elves, hard to say what 'interesting' defines. As far as legacy goes would love to see merfolk, goblins and slivers see a buff. I'm just assuming elves is in there because wotc has such a hardon for them. When I think of tribal these are the first to come to mind, but curious what edh lords think.


Depends on if the Slivers look like http://i.imgur.com/jCs6JaN.png and say "All Slivers" or look like http://i.imgur.com/Ne8WaxO.png and say "Sliver creatures you control."

If it's what I'm sure it'd be, yeah, not as excited about Slivers as I would be.

Here you go
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/151780635698/hello-mark-when-slivers-return-will-they-be-all

[ramanujan]

My guess is:

Elves
Dragons (seems like a shoe in, given that the format used to be called EDH)
Slivers
Knights

I would love merfolk and/or goblins, but I just don't think they will do it.

[HSCK]

Elves, Merfolk, Goblins, and Slivers is my guess.

[Zombie]

There'll probably be zombies or vampires, I think.

[Ace/Homebrew]

When I think of tribal these are the first to come to mind, but curious what edh lords think.

Okay, I'm going to lock it in... Final answer Regis!

:r::w::b: Giants - Sufficient # of cards to span an EDH range of mana costs, plus they are all inexpensive
5 Color - Either Elementals or Slivers. I'm going to pick Elementals, again because of the wide range in mana costs and low monetary value of individual cards
:u:x or :u:xx Wizards - There are sooo many options here. The supporting colors will be picked to even out the color balance in the entire product
:g::b::w: Treefolk - I feel like this is a sure thing. Treefolk kinda scream EDH even though it isn't necessarily a widely played archetype

I hope I'm wrong because none of that will support struggling Legacy tribes... but let's be realistic here. This product isn't for us, even though the announcement specifically mentioned Legacy and Vintage.

[Stuart]

Hopefully it's Kavu.

[Lava Snacks]

Hopefully it's Kavu.

According to my painstaking research, there are no legendary Kavus to be my EDH Kavu tribal general? I've never been angrier.

[Stuart]

According to my painstaking research, there are no legendary Kavus to be my EDH Kavu tribal general? I've never been angrier.

This release is WotC's opportunity to right the wrongs of history.

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

I'm so hyped for this set, Ive been waiting for years for them to release a tribal set and theyve finally announced it, hopefully we get some legacy tribes, they havent got anything for a long time...

[Brael]

Any guesses on the fourth tribe? I assume the three typical ones to be a lock.

Slivers, humans, werewolves, and allies are probably all contenders.

[Ace/Homebrew]

According to my painstaking research, there are no legendary Kavus to be my EDH Kavu tribal general? I've never been angrier.

You are technically incorrect, which is the most important kind of incorrect. :tongue:

Mistform Ultimus

[Lava Snacks]

You are technically incorrect, which is the most important kind of incorrect. :tongue:

Mistform Ultimus

I have dishonored Kavus everywhere with my ignorance of the ultimus Kavu lord and am no longer fit to command the tribe anyway.

[Barook]

You are technically incorrect, which is the most important kind of incorrect. :tongue:

Mistform Ultimus
I wonder if they try to jam in some Changelings just for the sake of it.

[Ace/Homebrew]

To be fair... it'd be a shitty deck since there aren't any blue kavu you could put into it anyway (outside of changelings).

[Aggro_zombies]

Come on Rebels! I want my WB Rebel commander already...

[Ronald Deuce]

Most of the suggestions in the thread would be pretty interesting to see, but recent design decisions suggest the tribes would be something like Humans, Drakes, Skirges, and Folk of An-Havva.

[raudo]

Treefolk MUST be in. And give them reach ffs. It feels so stupid to command a treefolk army that is not able to reach the flyers.

[PirateKing]

Treefolk MUST be in. And give them reach ffs. It feels so stupid to command a treefolk army that is not able to reach the flyers.

To be fair to the flavor, when they're printing nonsense like "Stratosphere Drake" and "Low Earth Orbit Owl", getting blocked by a tree would feel bad from the other side of the table.

[Barook]

To be fair to the flavor, when they're printing nonsense like "Stratosphere Drake" and "Low Earth Orbit Owl", getting blocked by a tree would feel bad from the other side of the table.
About as stupid as tiny Paradise Birds beating you to death with weapons.


5 Color - Either Elementals or Slivers. I'm going to pick Elementals, again because of the wide range in mana costs and low monetary value of individual cards.
Slivers kinda builds itself - just lots of cheap mana fixing (stuff like Command Tower would be great here) and lots of 1-of slivers to make an evergrowing army. And besides the mana base, you wouldn't need to upgrade much of the deck, either!

[Claymore]

Gideon tribal, Jace tribal, Chandra tribal, humans tribal.

[CutthroatCasual]

Gideon tribal, Jace tribal, Chandra tribal, humans tribal.

ResidentSleeper

[phonics]

Gideon tribal, Jace tribal, Chandra tribal, humans tribal.

As absurd as that sounds, it sounds like something they would do.

[Crimhead]

ELDRAZI!!!

Fae?

[civet five]

You are technically incorrect, which is the most important kind of incorrect. :tongue:

Mistform Ultimus

Gotta put this post on a hotkey so I can refer to it every time someone gets sad about not having a Commander of their favorite creature type.

Beebles?
Volvers?
Incarnation?
Eye?

Mistform Ultimus to the rescue!

[Barook]

ELDRAZI!!!
BFZ + Eldritch Moon were pretty successful to kill the creature type forever. WotC is going to avoid it like the plague now after the fucked it up that hard.

[TsumiBand]

A coworker pointed out to me that it is really fairly stupid to try and print inside of the big, well-established tribes, precisely because of their existing weight and the tightness of those decklists. Like who gives a shit if there's a new Sliver, unless it really pushes the envelope; they're setting themselves up to fail if they stick to the overpopulated tribes. It would probably be much easier and much more interesting for them to do tribes like Merfolk, Kithkin, Treefolk, maybe Vampires? Elementals? Hell, Dwarves? I feel like there are several 'beloved' tribes that never see any action because Standard is typically driven by the larger creature types (or Eldrazi, snore) so there's lots of room for some second chair tribes to get a little shot in the arm.

[Darkenslight]

My initial reaction was to cover Clerics, Druids, Wizards and Rogues.

And then, someone changed the Druid for Warriors, and I was immediately sold, given Wizards' gaming roots.

[TsumiBand]

My initial reaction was to cover Clerics, Druids, Wizards and Rogues.

And then, someone changed the Druid for Warriors, and I was immediately sold, given Wizards' gaming roots.

Haha that'd be sick af

[rufus]

Maybe the time has come for coward tribal.

[danyul]

Man yall got me hyped now.

Let's hope they give this dude an army to lead.

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/fut/111.jpg

[Barook]

My initial reaction was to cover Clerics, Druids, Wizards and Rogues.

And then, someone changed the Druid for Warriors, and I was immediately sold, given Wizards' gaming roots.
That would be too clever for Wizards.

[Cire]

My initial reaction was to cover Clerics, Druids, Wizards and Rogues.

And then, someone changed the Druid for Warriors, and I was immediately sold, given Wizards' gaming roots.

I would love for it to be Profession oriented "tribes". We need a good Prowl Deck :wink:

[Barook]

I would love for it to be Profession oriented "tribes". We need a good Prowl Deck :wink:
What could be the names?
Rogues - Cloak & Dagger
Warrior - Sword & Board
Wizards - ?
Clerics - ?

[Lava Snacks]

Man yall got me hyped now.

Let's hope they give this dude an army to lead.

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/fut/111.jpg

I feel like that army should go up against a Norin the Wary EDH deck.

[Cire]

What could be the names?
Rogues - Cloak & Dagger
Warrior - Sword & Board
Wizards - ?
Clerics - ?


Rogues - Cloak and Dagger (http://seelie.net/garyonwolf/DnD%20Books/Forgotten%20Realms%20-%20Cloak%20And%20Dagger.pdf)
Warriors - Sword and Fist (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sword_and_Fist)
Wizards - Tome and Blood (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tome_and_Blood)
Clerics - Defenders of the Faith (https://dnd.rem.uz/3.0%20D%26D%20Books/Defenders%20of%20the%20Faith%20-%20A%20Guidebook%20to%20Clerics%20and%20Paladins.pdf)

[Holiday]

It might be the LOTR fan in me but I'd love to see WOTC expand on the tribes for Orcs and Dwarves. Lorwyn was one of my favorite sets and I'd like them to do something similar and bring back that classic fantasy feel again.

[joven]

It might be the LOTR fan in me but I'd love to see WOTC expand on the tribes for Orcs and Dwarves. Lorwyn was one of my favorite sets and I'd like them to do something similar and bring back that classic fantasy feel again.

Yes to classic fantasy feel, but IMO Lorwyn was more in the realm of fairy tales, too kitschy.

[Holiday]

@joven yeah that's true. I think they had to make it kind of kitschy so they could really show contrast with Shadowmoor.

Heres another question I was wondering about, if we had never had Orcs and Dwarves in MTG before would they still be in red if they were made today? I feel like Orcs could be Red, Black or both. Dwarves I think were Red only because they live in mountains but they seem to fall under White because they are lawful and a bunch of small creatures who work together as opposed to chaotic and emotionally driven. Thoughts?

[Sylphnir]

Dunno the typical LotR, discworld and warcraft dwarves are all known for their hotheadedness and temper, which makes them fine in red imo. Also a love for alcohol and carousals.
Another frequently used and prominent characteristic (sometimes just a preconception) would be greed, a very black trait.

For the small people working together thing, we have the also rather underutilized Kithkin.

[Crimhead]

I just posted my wish list at Reddit:


A midsized Eldrazi with ETB destroy target nonland.

A nonbasic Island that also taps for :u::u: (Merfolk spells only).

A 1/1 Elf for :g: that taps Elves instead whenever they would be put into their owners library.

A Legendary Tribal Elephant Land that is otherwise identical to The Tabernacle At Pendrell Vale.
Eldrazi can beat Moat, Aggro comes back, Elves can beat Miracles, and Lands gets a some love. Everybody wins.

[joven]

A midsized Eldrazi with ETB destroy target nonland.

A nonbasic Island that also taps UU for  (Merfolk spells only).

A 1/1 Elf for G that taps Elves instead whenever they would be put into their owners library.

A Legendary Tribal Elephant Land that is otherwise identical to The Tabernacle At Pendrell Vale


Why would Lands need more Pendrell Vale?
You realize you won't get these!
The Merfolk Island sounds neat to try to bring back Merfolk but would push stupid "Nemesis of Magic", too.

[Crimhead]

The Merfolk Island sounds neat to try to bring back Merfolk but would push stupid "Nemesis of Magic", too.

Yeah, that Mer-Land shouldn't be an Island. it should be harder for 3 colour decks to rely on.


Why would Lands need more Pendrell Vale?

To give creatures an upkeep cost of :2:? Seems legit.


You realize you won't get these!
Absolutely!

[Barook]

So apparently spoilers got leaked (http://imgur.com/a/er1lC) and dragons are one of the four tribes. New cards:

http://i.imgur.com/ydu1DTc.png
http://i.imgur.com/dhh6X5W.png
http://i.imgur.com/5qIQ6zA.png

[MorphBerlin]

Oh gosh my scion of the ur-dragon edh is gonna wreak havoc upon my friends when I turn my commander into his own 10/10 father xD

[BenBleiweiss]

Oh gosh my scion of the ur-dragon edh is gonna wreak havoc upon my friends when I turn my commander into his own 10/10 father xD

I mean isn't Ur-Dragon (the new one, not Scion) amazing in Sneak?

[Noctalor]

I mean isn't Ur-Dragon (the new one, not Scion) amazing in Sneak?

I'd rather win with griselbrand or emrakul tbh

[H]

I mean isn't Ur-Dragon (the new one, not Scion) amazing in Sneak?

Not really seeing many spots off the top of my head where it is better than Emrakul or G-Bees.

I guess if you have Sneak and put this in, attack and draw Omni? Otherwise, drawing 7 seems much better. Or Annihilator 6.

[BenBleiweiss]

Not really seeing many spots off the top of my head where it is better than Emrakul or G-Bees.

I guess if you have Sneak and put this in, attack and draw Omni? Otherwise, drawing 7 seems much better. Or Annihilator 6.

Thinking mono-R sneak, not Sneak & Show, just to clarify!

[H]

Thinking mono-R sneak, not Sneak & Show, just to clarify!

Well, that is a bit different, but I'm still not seeing much value unless they just have nothing in which case anything wins anyway.

[Megadeus]

It's certainly an option, but if they have removal before the attack step then it doesn't net you anything. And if attacking Griselbrand can generally draw you 14 as well as finding a dude to just win before you attack. Maybe it's better than Worldspine in some situations?

[rufus]

... Maybe it's better than Worldspine in some situations?

It's hard to come up with one. The out to draw something and cheat that card into play is pretty low value compared to getting bodies from the wiggle worm, and anything that you didn't draw, you could just drop on the table directly instead of the Ur-Dragon.

[CptHaddock]

This guy actually looks playable right?

http://i.imgur.com/mQe3rpP.jpg

[H]

It's hard to come up with one. The out to draw something and cheat that card into play is pretty low value compared to getting bodies from the wiggle worm, and anything that you didn't draw, you could just drop on the table directly instead of the Ur-Dragon.

About the only case of something good I can think of is when the Ur-Dragon draws you Sneak Attack when put in with a TtB.

Of course though, if that was Worldspine, you'd have three 5/5's in play and would just draw Sneak Attack next turn anyway (but yeah, you'd still need to pay it's mana cost).

I guess somehow if you are in a bizzaro situation where you don't have another creature in hand, but for some reason you need another in play, all while they don't have a StP and there is a creature on the top of your library...

[Ace/Homebrew]

http://i.imgur.com/CqE5vTJ.jpg

Ramos + Genju of the Realm + sac outlet = infinite mana, right?

-EDIT- Ahh, I guess it's limited to the # of lands you have in play...

[Jander78]

Ramos + Genju of the Realm + sac outlet = infinite mana, right?

-EDIT- Ahh, I guess it's limited to the # of lands you have in play...
The new card also says "Activate this ability only once each turn."

[Ace/Homebrew]

The new card also says "Activate this ability only once each turn."
Derp! :rolleyes:
Yeah, that'll keep people from breaking it too.

[Fox]

Ramos, you're gonna fit right into my Entomb/Haakon/Nameless Inversion/Progenitus deck.... :laugh:

[TsumiBand]

The new card also says "Activate this ability only once each turn."

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=425861&type=card

[hymnyou]

Cool. Are they not hinting at Cat/Monkey (one of them) being in the set by pointing to Bily whatever card? They did say one of the tribes was 'interesting' whatever that means.

Dragons and Humans=lame

[Barook]

This guy actually looks playable right?
Being immune to AD and bolt-proof is certainly useful. Dying to REB and being bounced by Karakas, not so much.

Making stuff uncounterable is nice. But I don't think the Rebound ability isn't going to be triggered by often in Legacy.

For 4 mana, that's kinda iffy.

[rufus]

Being immune to AD and bolt-proof is certainly useful. Dying to REB and being bounced by Karakas, not so much.

Making stuff uncounterable is nice. But I don't think the Rebound ability isn't going to be triggered by often in Legacy.

For 4 mana, that's kinda iffy.

I think he's competing with Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir for a sideboard slot, and Teferi is probably better.

[Richard Cheese]

Cat dragon is Jund colors...wtf Wizards. This whole set is completely unplayable now.

[Aggro_zombies]

Just looking at these as a Commander player:

Ramos: Cool callback, definitely not one I expected. Sadly doesn't live up to his name because of the once-per-turn restriction. I'm actually not that sure he would have been very broken if he didn't have that clause, since he requires you to play either a bunch of multicolor spells or a bunch of differently-colored cheap spells to keep the mana train going, and I don't know how good that would be in multiplayer (in 1v1 he's a six mana 4/4 with no protection). Kind of forgettable as-is.

Taigam: One of the things I don't like about the previewed cards is just how many of them have combat triggers. It means that your deck's centerpiece card too often does nothing on crowded or complicated multiplayer board states. Taigam is one such guy; his "no counters" benefit is kind of lackluster in straight UW because those two colors aren't great combo colors by themselves, and he's not a great control general because of his lack of protection. The nice thing about his rebound enabler is that you can use Reconnaissance to yank him out of combat and still get the benefit of rebounding stuff. Not being able to rebound instants for full value is kind of a bummer, but so is this card, so whatever.

Ur-Dragon: Command Zone effects make me instinctively start to twitch, but a simple cost reduction mechanic on big Timmy spells is not too threatening - hopefully the other cards with the Eminence mechanic have similarly weak command zone effects. His combat trigger is super win-more and I'm very leery of nine mana generals with no protection, but this is as big, dumb, and battlecruiser-y as they come...so, it's a quintessential dragon commander. Good enough, I guess.

O-Kagachi: This guy isn't tremendously interesting as a dragon, but he is the long-awaited five color Spirit commander, so there's that. Flavorfully, he's got exactly the mechanics you'd expect, but from a power level perspective, he's waaaaay below what you'd expect from the greatest of kami. You can't make him much cheaper without losing colors, and you can't divorce his retaliation from combat because then you lose his schtick of, "O-Kagachi is chewing up the mortal world because he's fucking pissed Konga breached the spirit realm to steal That Which Was Taken". He's not another Ludevic, but he's not far off. I'm disappointed.

Wasitora: This is apparently a character from the Legends books, which I didn't read, so I can't speak to how accurate the flavor is. However, I do know that I'm bored this is yet another commander with a combat trigger that creates incremental board advantage. The stats are decent, the Edict bit is decent, the cat dragons are cute, but the total package is so thoroughly mediocre it hurts.

[Ronald Deuce]

Yep. They went and did it. THEY MADE A CAT-DRAGON. They blew it all up.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Being immune to AD and bolt-proof is certainly useful. Dying to REB and being bounced by Karakas, not so much.

Making stuff uncounterable is nice. But I don't think the Rebound ability isn't going to be triggered by often in Legacy.

For 4 mana, that's kinda iffy.

Well its at least a very strong EDH card. Swing at anything + Time warp = gg.

[Captain Hammer]

Really hoping one of the tribes will be Eldrazi. It's very popular, and EDH players would love to play it if it had a few more cards. But most of all, I want some more decent Eldrazi printed for Legacy.

Eldrazi is easily the most popular tribe relative to how few creatures there actually are in the tribe. And it's not like we are going to get any more Eldrazi in standard sets so COMM17 is the only chance for more Eldrazi.

In addition a colorless COMM set has never been done before and this would provide a rare opportunity to do one.

A 4cc Kozilek's Channeler for example would be a godsend, even as a 3/3.

[Ronald Deuce]

If you can't see why Eldrazi would be a terrible idea, I don't really know what to say. I guess non-Devoid colored Eldrazi could be viable, but something tells me that's not going to happen. They'd rather have their cat-dragons and design trainwrecks.

After these spoilers, I'd take a tribal set more seriously if they printed Trogdor the Burninator.

[Barook]

Really hoping one of the tribes will be Eldrazi. It's very popular, and EDH players would love to play it if it had a few more cards. But most of all, I want some more decent Eldrazi printed for Legacy.
Replace "very popular" with "extremely hated" and you got it right. Eldrazi were cool the first time around, but then they went and took everything away that made them cool, not to mention several Eldrazi cards had banned across formats because they were OP.

I would be very suprised if WotC revisits Eldrazi anytime soon, if ever again.

[Aggro_zombies]

Yeah, I can't see them doing Eldrazi for a lot of reasons. One, they took a lot of flak for bringing the Eldrazi back in Eldritch Moon after we'd just had two sets of them. Two, in the story, the only real Eldrazi are the titans Ulamog, Kozilek, and Emrakul; every other Eldrazi that exists is a spawn of one of those three. Currently, two of them are dead and the third has locked herself in Innistrad's moon, and all three of them have had their broods defeated, so any legendary they make to head that deck is going to represent an enormous narrative ass-pull. Third, Eldrazi exist in the same play experience realm as dragons: enormous battlecruiser monsters that dominate the battlefield and threaten to take over the game if left unanswered, and I imagine they won't want to double up on battlecruiser decks because they usually try to make each deck feel relatively unique to hit different target audiences.

Of the three remaining decks, I imagine one will be Elves since we haven't had any in a while and a well-built elf deck can feel like a combo/aggro deck, and one might be birds or merfolk and take the role of the aggro-control deck. The remaining deck will likely be some sort of true control deck. My secret hope is for Rebels, but we'll see.

[Crimhead]

Replace "very popular" with "extremely hated" and you got it right...
...not to mention several Eldrazi cards had banned across formats because they were OP.

Does that hatred extend to the EDH and Legacy/Vintage player bases? These are the only people going to be buying Commander product.
The only banned or OP card between those formats is Emrakul (the Eons Torn) banned in EDH.


Two, in the story, the only real Eldrazi are the titans Ulamog, Kozilek, and Emrakul; every other Eldrazi that exists is a spawn of one of those three. Currently, two of them are dead and the third has locked herself in Innistrad's moon, and all three of them have had their broods defeated, so any legendary they make to head that deck is going to represent an enormous narrative ass-pull.
Commander products don't adhere to the chronology of Standard. We get characters from other eras.


Of the three remaining decks, I imagine one will be Elves since we haven't had any in a while...I think there was a high concentration of Elf stuff in the mono :g: deck which is being rereleased in the upcoming anthology. This would seem like a very poor choice if they are also planning a tribal Elf deck this year.

[JDK]

Yes, we Legacy players also hate Eldrazi. :wink:

[Dice_Box]

Yes, we Legacy players also hate Eldrazi. :wink:
If you think Legacy players dislike Eldrazi, talk to some Vintage ones. That deck is far far more effective in Vintage.

[JDK]

We hate it, they hate it more? So? :really:

Everyone except Japanese hates Eldrazi. Oh, and Timmy. Timmy also likes tentacle face smashers.

[Bobmans]

Yes, we Legacy players also hate Eldrazi. :wink:
And Delver, and Combo, and Miracles (RiP), and Leovold, and TNN, and DRS, and Griselbrand. But we all love Legacy.

[Kanti]

Really hoping one of the tribes will be Eldrazi as I like to eat table spoons of salt on weekdays for fun, cinammon powder on weekends because my pain threshold is obviously non existent. It's very popular, as popular as giving yourself splinters is at-least, and EDH players would love to play it if it had a few more cards. But most of all, I want some more decent Eldrazi printed for Legacy.

Eldrazi is easily the most popular tribe relative to how few creatures there actually are in the tribe. And it's not like we are going to get any more Eldrazi in standard sets so COMM17 is the only chance for more Eldrazi.

In addition a colorless COMM set has never been done before and this would provide a rare opportunity to do one.

A 4cc Kozilek's Channeler for example would be a godsend, even as a 3/3.

I cry.

[Crimhead]

And Delver, and Combo, and Miracles (RiP), and Leovold, and TNN, and DRS, and Griselbrand. But we all love Legacy.
LMAO! Am I the only player here who doesn't hate any archetypes?


We hate it, they hate it more? So? :really:

I think the difference is that almost 100% of Standard and Modern players had a sour experience with Eldrazis recently. Eldrazi were never oppressive in Legacy, so it's only a few haters who dislike Eldrazi simply because of their personal tastes.

More importantly, do Commander players have any reason at all to not like Eldrazi?

[kirkusjones]

Some people find annihilator to be a really unfun keyword. It runs afoul of the sanctified "spirit of the format" many players reference when complaining about powerful cards.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Do Commander players have any reason at all to not like Eldrazi?
Not since Emrakul, the Aeons Torn got banned.

As 1 of 99 it was too strong of a win-con for ramp strategies (the extra turn probably pushed it over the edge).
As a commander it was too easy to shove 50 rocks into a deck to hardcast it unreasonably early.

Otherwise Eldrazi seem fine in EDH. I don't play or follow 1v1, so someone else will have to chime in if it's different there.

[Crimhead]

I agree about original Emrakul, but that's been banned for a long time now.



Some people find annihilator to be a really unfun keyword. It runs afoul of the sanctified "spirit of the format" many players reference when complaining about powerful cards.
People don't like anything that interferes with their strategy. Some EDH players hate counter-spells, some hate LD, some hate combo, some hate sweepers, some hate infect, etc. I don't think there is any special hate for Eldrazis.

[tescrin]

LMAO! Am I the only player here who doesn't hate any archetypes?
Probably. I hate D&T and Miracles (Topless miracles is probably fine...)

D&T is just a personal "all of your creatures are garbage but you're somehow doing good" deck. Every loss feels like like a black-out drunk night where you're calling friends to figure out what happened.

[H]

LMAO! Am I the only player here who doesn't hate any archetypes?

Gross man, keep your lack of bias to yourself. This is the internet, no one wants to hear something reasonable.

:tongue:


Probably. I hate D&T and Miracles (Topless miracles is probably fine...)

D&T is just a personal "all of your creatures are garbage but you're somehow doing good" deck. Every loss feels like like a black-out drunk night where you're calling friends to figure out what happened.

Huh...funny, that's exactly why I like playing D&T.

It's almost as if different people...like...different things.

I personally think Storm was the most abominable thing ever printed in the game, but I don't hate it, I just think it's dumb as hell.

Then again, I do like running land destruction in EDH so...

[Crimhead]

Well everybody is baissed - I just don't hate any Legacy archetypes.

[Richard Cheese]

I don't hate TinFins, but sometimes I wish I had less fun.

[tescrin]

Huh...funny, that's exactly why I like playing D&T.

It's almost as if different people...like...different things.

______
Then again, I do like running land destruction in EDH so...

This is why my posts are always 17 paragraphs; I feel like you got the wrong message out of it. I wouldn't propose "fixing" D&T if that's what you read out of it; just that [sort of like dredge] it drives me nuts when I lose to it.

Which brings me to "I also hate Dredge with a ridiculous passion" but I forgot about it because it's not a real deck anyway :p


_________
Anyway, I'd totally run Impending Disaster and Sun Titan in EDH. Don't know how it'd work, but I'd run it .

[Zombie]

Probably. I hate D&T and Miracles (Topless miracles is probably fine...)

D&T is just a personal "all of your creatures are garbage but you're somehow doing good" deck. Every loss feels like like a black-out drunk night where you're calling friends to figure out what happened.

I like D&T. It gives that nice, prisony feel where at some point you have to concede because you just can't play Magic properly anymore, but it builds the prison gradually instead of slamming a binary hatepiece. I don't think I've ever had a bad experience playing against the deck except with Storm where the problem is that a large part of your game is just trying to go under Thalia.

[JDK]

I think the difference is that almost 100% of Standard and Modern players had a sour experience with Eldrazis recently. Eldrazi were never oppressive in Legacy, so it's only a few haters who dislike Eldrazi simply because of their personal tastes.
Not sure why you even responded to my post.
Aaaanyway, every blue player probably hates Wizards' "Let's print good spells only on creatures anymore" ("only" might be exaggerated, hide your pitchforks, try to get the meaning) policy (say hi to TKS...and Smasher almost always trades 2:1) and Chalice is just a stupid card.

[Crimhead]

Not sure why you even responded to my post.
Aaaanyway, every blue player probably hates Wizards' "Let's print good spells only on creatures anymore" ("only" might be exaggerated, hide your pitchforks, try to get the meaning) policy (say hi to TKS...and Smasher almost always trades 2:1) and Chalice is just a stupid card.I dunno. Was I drunk?

I'm kind of surprised you would reply only to confirm exactly what I said - Legacy players who hate Eldrazi simply find them distasteful. Modern players had their format ruined beyond subjectivity.

I also dislike how WotC pushes the hell out of creatures while creature hosers don't really improve. But I like Eldrazi (and TKS) because they are unique - both in terms of being dependent on synergy in order to be played, and in giving us a play-style that previously hasn't been tier-one.

I guess I'm not partial to fair "good-stuff" piles. I don't actually mind them in the format (and there is no specific archetype I hate on). In fact I like to see some such decks. I'm only really bothered if too many of the top decks fit that description - and lucky for me that is not the case.

[Dice_Box]

I personally love the Eldrazi decks in all the formats I play. Granted for different reasons. In Modern I love the Bant builds for reminding Jund players you can do it better and faster than them. I love it in Legacy because it actually made the format have to shift and deal with Stompy as a threat. I love it in Vintage because now you can play a deck for less than 1500 that has a real shot at winning an event.

That said, I dislike the White version in Vintage, I think it's a strong deck, but too easily disrupted by its own inability to find coloured sources.

In Legacy, the deck I personally dislike the most is SnT. But I am well past actually being willing to give a shit about it. It's a thing. Meh. So it Lands and the Delver players in the room don't bitch about me, so I guess all being equal, shit happens.

[Cire]

http://i.imgur.com/kZ8LHoT.jpg

So one of the tribes are . . . cats :eyebrow:

[Barook]

WotC sure loves there meme cats. Here's a leaked artwork of the other commander:

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/002/110/longcat.jpg

[Kap'n Cook]

Boring card, boring name. Would rather just have Roar of the Wurm as my commander. That card is awesome.

http://i.tcgplayer.com/9541_200w.jpg

[Claymore]

Looks like joven was the only person in this thread to predict cats, unless that was an edit today.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31568-Commander-2017-Edition&p=1001218&viewfull=1#post1001218

[Dice_Box]

So Dragons and the cats to feed them. That means the other two will be dogs and crabs.

Wtf Wizards. You decided to cut down to 4 decks and print tribes and you picked Cats as a filler? God I hope Doran is not one of the remainder.

[Mr. Safety]

I call vampires.

[spirit of the wretch]

So Dragons and the cats to feed them. That means the other two will be dogs and crabs.

Wtf Wizards. You decided to cut down to 4 decks and print tribes and you picked Cats as a filler? God I hope Doran is not one of the remainder.

What is wrong with you? Cats are an awesome tribe. Honestly. I'm way more psyched than I would be for Goblins V1500. That would be weak stuff.

But cat tribal?!? That is the hot s**t!

[Ace/Homebrew]

I call vampires.
Looks like you're right. The artwork for each lead Commander were leaked/spoiled and right now most people talking about it are confident one of the pictures is of Edgar Markov. Last one is unknown but Wizards is leading the pack on the speculation front.

[Dice_Box]

What is wrong with you?
Short answer? I am a Psychology student, so likely a lot.

[taconaut]

What is wrong with you? Cats are an awesome tribe.
!

What I don't understand is why WOTC creative is like,

"No, we can't have squirrels, they're not badass or serious enough for our fantasy IP.

...cats though, yeah. Cats are fine."

(Not a cat hater, though - just give us more squirrels and goblins and beebles and atogs!)

[spirit of the wretch]

Short answer? I am a Psychology student, so likely a lot.

I chuckled :)


What I don't understand is why WOTC creative is like,

"No, we can't have squirrels, they're not badass or serious enough for our fantasy IP.

...cats though, yeah. Cats are fine."

(Not a cat hater, though - just give us more squirrels and goblins and beebles and atogs!)

I would take squirrel over the standard Goblin/Elf/Human any day oft the week. But cats are most definitly a step in the right direction.

[Ronald Deuce]

http://i.imgur.com/kZ8LHoT.jpg

So one of the tribes are . . . cats :eyebrow:

Christ, this is gonna suck.

[Poron]

I am no EDH expert but Wild Nacatl might swing for 12 or turn 2 if you also have 1WG to tap?

Qasali Pridemage 12 the same?

[H]

I am no EDH expert but Wild Nacatl might swing for 12 or turn 2 if you also have 1WG to tap?

Qasali Pridemage 12 the same?

That last ability would only function if Arahbo is on the battlefield, so I doubt you would have 8 mana on turn 2.

[Ace/Homebrew]

I am no EDH expert but Wild Nacatl might swing for 12 or turn 2 if you also have 1WG to tap?

Qasali Pridemage 12 the same?
I'm not following your maths or what you're asking about Pridemage, but the quickest clock with Arahbo is Lost Leonin. :rolleyes:

[H]

I'm not following your maths or what you're asking about Pridemage, but the quickest clock with Arahbo is Lost Leonin. :rolleyes:

Pretty sure the thinking was that the last ability could be activated from the Command Zone, but only the triggered ability applies from that Zone.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Pretty sure the thinking was that the last ability could be activated from the Command Zone, but only the triggered ability applies from that Zone.
Sure, I get that. But how is Wild Nacatl a 3/3? And how are you swinging with Pridemage on turn 2? And how are you casting either (instead of a mana dork) and having enough to activate Arahbo (even if he was on the battlefield)?

[Barook]

I am no EDH expert but Wild Nacatl might swing for 12 or turn 2 if you also have 1WG to tap?

Qasali Pridemage 12 the same?
The Commander must be on the field to activate the second ability. The best you could do is 6 damage on T2 with Nacatl.

2/2 due to Plains/Forest (no mountains) +1/+1/ Qasali Exalted trigger, +3/+3 Commander Trigger - which his still respectable for zero resource investment, at least in 1vs1 Commander.

[Richard Cheese]

http://i.imgur.com/kZ8LHoT.jpg

So one of the tribes are . . . cats :eyebrow:

Dammit I JUST built cats tribal for EDH and now everyone's gonna think I just modified the damn precon! Now how will people know how quirky and original I am?!?!??!?!

[Ace/Homebrew]

:r::w::b: Giants
5 Color - Either Elementals or Slivers
:u:x or :u:xx Wizards
:g::b::w: Treefolk

Well... I got the colors mostly right. :rolleyes:

RWB Vampires
5 Color Dragons
UBR Wizards
GW Cats

[Cire]

Well... I got the colors mostly right. :rolleyes:

RWB Vampires
5 Color Dragons
UBR Wizards
GW Cats

Given that one of the new cards was a Cat Dragon, I think it's safe to say there will be a cross-pollination of typesSo we should get a:

Vampire Cat
Wizard Cat
Vampire Wizard
Dragon Vampire
Dragon Wizard

[Barook]

Given that one of the new cards was a Cat Dragon, I think it's safe to say there will be a cross-pollination of typesSo we should get a:

Vampire Cat
Wizard Cat
Vampire Wizard
Dragon Vampire
Dragon Wizard
We already had a BR Vampire Dragon before.

As for the rest:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/8d/8b/14/8d8b14ccde9be187e72769fb4ddf200e--funny-halloween-costumes-cats-in-costumes.jpg

Edit: Nevermind, we already had Cat Wizards, too. One which is even a format staple: Qasali Pridemage

[Cire]

We already had a BR Vampire Dragon before.

As for the rest:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/8d/8b/14/8d8b14ccde9be187e72769fb4ddf200e--funny-halloween-costumes-cats-in-costumes.jpg

Edit: Nevermind, we already had Cat Wizards, too. One which is even a format staple: Qasali Pridemage

Yeah, but we don't have this yet (shapeshifter and mistform don't count :rolleyes:)

http://i.imgur.com/HLlrciG.jpg

[Doishy]

Yeah, but we don't have this yet (shapeshifter and mistform don't count :rolleyes:)

http://i.imgur.com/HLlrciG.jpg

Mirri, the Cursed?

[Crimhead]

Given that one of the new cards was a Cat Dragon, I think it's safe to say there will be a cross-pollination of typesSo we should get a:

Vampire Cat
Wizard Cat
Vampire Wizard
Dragon Vampire
Dragon Wizard
Wizard Cat is going to need to be an artifact creature if the intention is cross over.

[Megadeus]

We already have a Cat Wizard. Pridemage

[Ace/Homebrew]

Spoiler for Ixalan:

https://d8s0dvdlqz4n8.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Pirate-Cat-Costume3-500x638.jpg

Cat Pirate

[Barook]

Lots of Vampire Wizards (https://www.google.de/search?q=mtg+vampire+wizard&client=firefox-b&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjB-LzV_LTVAhUGwxQKHUyfBKEQ_AUICigB&biw=1920&bih=922)

Vampiric Dragon
Dragon Mage and both Niv Mizzets.

Scary how all those silly creature types are already a thing in MtG. :eyebrow:

[Crimhead]

We already have a Cat Wizard. Pridemage
If they want to offer a Cat Wizard that can go in either deck, Pridemage doesn't cut it.

So...

No Elves, no Fish, no Goblins, no Eldrazi. A giant middle finger to the Legacy community. :(

[H]

Scary how all those silly creature types are already a thing in MtG. :eyebrow:

Yeah, we really should have had a Brushwagg deck.

[spirit of the wretch]

If they want to offer a Cat Wizard that can go in either deck, Pridemage doesn't cut it.

So...

No Elves, no Fish, no Goblins, no Eldrazi. A giant middle finger to the Legacy community. :(

Yeah, honestly. I mean it's almost like they didn't make this thing for the Legacy community. Really, one could think it's for an entirely different target group.
Unbelievable...

[Megadeus]

If they want to offer a Cat Wizard that can go in either deck, Pridemage doesn't cut it.

So...

No Elves, no Fish, no Goblins, no Eldrazi. A giant middle finger to the Legacy community. :(

Why not. An attacking Disenchant is great for EDH, especially one that can be reanimated over and over

[Navsi]

Why not. An attacking Disenchant is great for EDH, especially one that can be reanimated over and over

The Wizards deck is in Grixis colours, so there's no Pridemage in it.

[Barook]

If they want to offer a Cat Wizard that can go in either deck, Pridemage doesn't cut it.

So...

No Elves, no Fish, no Goblins, no Eldrazi. A giant middle finger to the Legacy community. :(
Wizards isn't touching Eldrazi with a ten foot pole after the whole BFZ/Emrakul debacles have ruined both Modern and Standard.

While the tribes are overall disappointing, at least Wizards could turn out good. There are tons of good Wizards in the Grixis colors, with Snappy, Grim Lavamancer and Bob just being examples. Cats might have a few good cards. Dragons are overcosted garbage and the track record for Vampires is pretty meh.

[walked]

When do official spoilers of Commander products start?

[Ace/Homebrew]

There are tons of good Wizards in the Grixis colors, with Snappy, Grim Lavamancer and Bob just being examples.
You should lower your expectations significantly. :wink:

[Barook]

You should lower your expectations significantly. :wink:
All I'm saying is that Wizards is a tribe with potential, unlike the others. We most likely aren't getting any format-defining cards, but there could be a gem here or there.

[mistercakes]

It's also possible that there might be creature types that can help the normal legacy tribes too. Merfolk wizard, goblin wizard, human wizard. Just holding my breath until spoilers are out.

[jmlima]

You should lower your expectations significantly. :wink:

Scornful Egotist ?

[Barook]

It's also possible that there might be creature types that can help the normal legacy tribes too. Merfolk wizard, goblin wizard, human wizard. Just holding my breath until spoilers are out.
Now that you mention it - seems pretty odd that their tribal decks are three races (Dragon, Cat, Vampire) and one job class (Wizard).

[mistercakes]

maybe goblins will finally get that wizard that can do something useful. destroy target shaman.

[Crimhead]

All I'm saying is that Wizards is a tribe with potential, unlike the others. We most likely aren't getting any format-defining cards, but there could be a gem here or there.


It's also possible that there might be creature types that can help the normal legacy tribes too. Merfolk wizard, goblin wizard, human wizard. Just holding my breath until spoilers are out.
Any or all of these decks could produce playable cards for any Legacy deck. This is true of any product they make. But unlike most products this was an opportunity to provide new tribal synergies for a Legacy relevant tribe. They chose to pass.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Scornful Egotist ?
Your expectations are appropriate :cool:

[Darkenslight]

Any or all of these decks could produce playable cards for any Legacy deck. This is true of any product they make. But unlike most products this was an opportunity to provide new tribal synergies for a Legacy relevant tribe. They chose to pass.

They chose to pass on a currently-played archetype. They may have something like:

Wizard spells you cast cost :1: less to cast.
Instant and Sorcery spells you cast cost :1: less to cast.

with a mediocre body but a really cheap cost.

[Barook]

Spoiler season is upon us. The first two cards are pretty underwhelming:

https://i.redd.it/5kkmfez1daez.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DGnQ6W-WAAARloT.png

[Ace/Homebrew]

Spoiler season is upon us. The first two cards are pretty underwhelming:

https://i.redd.it/5kkmfez1daez.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DGnQ6W-WAAARloT.png
For Legacy... yeah. They're pretty good in EDH though.

[NeckBird]

http://media.wizards.com/2017/c17/en_X0rXstXw5X.png

New Mirri. Seriously doubt it's Legacy playable outside of specific metagames where Goblins and Elves are on top, but it is a sweet card.

[procobrito]

I can see this in some d&t:

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/132/960/636376955171854789.png

[H]

I can see this in some d&t:

Probably, but I really, really wish it didn't say "target."

[Crimhead]

Probably, but I really, really wish it didn't say "target."

I wish it didn't say 3 toughness :(

[H]

I wish it didn't say 3 toughness :(

Good point, this could have been quite great.

[kombatkiwi]

Even if you Vial it in mid-combat it can die to removal with the "choose an opponent" trigger on the stack and you won't get to exile anything. It doesn't seem terrible but I don't know if it's super great either.

Interesting that this is one of the non-legends in the commander product because that effect could have been really obnoxious with Karakas. I guess flickering it is still pretty sweet.

[Barook]

Stalking Leonin is probably best used with Vial to ambush an alpha strike. "Recharging" with Flickerwisp is nifty, but having both the requirements of "attacking" and "target" limits its usefulness quite a bit. The opponent could also just kill it before combat for it to do jackshit.

http://227rsi2stdr53e3wto2skssd7xe-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Alms_Collector_EN.png

A 4 mana flash card is NOT how you fucking combat Brainstorm.

[mistercakes]

Seems pretty fun vs show and tell.

Mirri is also a decent attacker, especially with noble hierarch.

Anyway, one thing that is nice is that almost all of these cats have an additional creature subtype. Hopefully we can expect this in the other decks as well.

[Crimhead]

Good point, this could have been quite great.

I meant I wanted it to have 1 or 2 toughness.

[Barook]

Looks like Puresteel Paladin got a new, favorite toy to play with:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DGopNxrWAAEJqnK.jpg:large

Metalcraft enabler & draw engine while his second ability allows you to equip the new copies for free.

[H]

I meant I wanted it to have 1 or 2 toughness.

I got it, Recruiter is a card.

[Barook]

Mirri is also a decent attacker, especially with noble hierarch.
The card is actually pretty misleading because we're used to Dueling Grounds. But new Mirri doesn't work this way - she's way better:

- You can swing with your entire army, while your opponent can only block with one of his creatures.
- You can still only be attacked by one creature.

Mirri is basically a balls-to-the-wally aggro card.

[Darkenslight]

Stalking Leonin is probably best used with Vial to ambush an alpha strike. "Recharging" with Flickerwisp is nifty, but having both the requirements of "attacking" and "target" limits its usefulness quite a bit. The opponent could also just kill it before combat for it to do jackshit.

http://227rsi2stdr53e3wto2skssd7xe-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Alms_Collector_EN.png

A 4 mana flash card is NOT how you fucking combat Brainstorm.

There's only really one commonly-played spell that hits it as a clean answer, though: Swords. It's both Bolt and AD proof.

[Barook]

There's only really one commonly-played spell that hits it as a clean answer, though: Swords. It's both Bolt and AD proof.
Revolt Fatal Push can also kill it, for what it matters.

[mistercakes]

Is it just me or wouldn't this be fun with a land tax winds of change deck? Or burning inquiry?

[Mr. Safety]

Is it just me or wouldn't this be fun with a land tax winds of change deck? Or burning inquiry?

Reforge the Soul; discard their hand, you draw 8. :tongue:

EDIT: the equipment seems pretty good with tokens, particularly Lingering Souls. Yes it costs 2 to equip, but each turn the army gets stronger. A single Abrupt Decay doesn't deal with it either.

[rufus]

...

A 4 mana flash card is NOT how you fucking combat Brainstorm.

That card is funny in combination with Winds of Change and other symmetric draw effects.

...

Bloodforged Waraxe looks like a fun design, but a weak card.

[say no to scurvy]

http://media.wizards.com/2017/c17/en_X0rXstXw5X.png


A one sided Dueling Grounds (remember that 1-of sideboard card?). This could be playable.

[H]

A one sided Dueling Grounds (remember that 1-of sideboard card?). This could be playable.

Yeah, I could see one going into GSZ decks, since it's searchable and even better than Grounds.

[mistercakes]

The white guy is actually pretty funny with trade secrets. UU1 draw 5 and they get 1.

I guess you can get decked here.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Regarding Bloodforged Battle-Axe: Anyone think some sort of Voltron variant of DnT, Affinity, or Equipment-based Cheerios with Puresteel Paladin could be a viable home for this card? Like, imagine the following fantasy lines of play.

T1: Land
T2: Land, Puresteel
T3: Land, BBA (draw), equip, swing for 4, BBA trigger (draw)
T4: Equip copies, swing for 6, BBA triggers twice (draw two)
T5: Equip copies, swing for 10, BBA triggers four times (draw four)

Granted, in Legacy you should have established a win-con by turn 3, but I'd go so far as to say Puresteel+BBA, if it doesn't get answered during Turn 2 or Turn 3, can generate enough life advantage and card advantage to simply bury the opponent.

[filln]

Granted, in Legacy you should have established a win-con by turn 3, but I'd go so far as to say Puresteel+BBA, if it doesn't get answered during Turn 2 or Turn 3, can generate enough life advantage and card advantage to simply bury the opponent.

If only Puresteel Paladin + BBA provided some sort of evasion or protection... as is it pretty much dies to every single removal spell in the format and dies to any creature with power greater than 2.

[Barook]

Regarding Bloodforged Battle-Axe: Anyone think some sort of Voltron variant of DnT, Affinity, or Equipment-based Cheerios with Puresteel Paladin could be a viable home for this card? Like, imagine the following fantasy lines of play.

T1: Land
T2: Land, Puresteel
T3: Land, BBA (draw), equip, swing for 4, BBA trigger (draw)
T4: Equip copies, swing for 6, BBA triggers twice (draw two)
T5: Equip copies, swing for 10, BBA triggers four times (draw four)

Granted, in Legacy you should have established a win-con by turn 3, but I'd go so far as to say Puresteel+BBA, if it doesn't get answered during Turn 2 or Turn 3, can generate enough life advantage and card advantage to simply bury the opponent.
The entire sequence could be improved alot by playing Moxen, be it Mox Diamond or Chrome Mox.

While the lack of evasion sucks, the actual combat can be done by other creatures who do have evasion/protection.

[Fox]

Mirri clearly needs to have menace, what an oversight.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

In regards to Evasive/Protected Beats: This is why I suggested DnT and Affinity: one has Mom, the other has Etched Champion. ^_^"

There is also the "god-sequence" of T1: Mom; T2: Puresteel; T3: BBAx3 (draw x3), equip x3, activate Mom, swing for 8, BBA Trigger x3 (draw x3).

Echoing Ruin looking usable to anyone now? :P

(again, mostly fantasy crafting right now; in terms of reliability it is underwhelming compared to Jitte, and if a Voltron shell is desired, then maybe simply using Sigarda's Aid over Puresteel Paladin is the correct choice?)

[Stuart]

Flavor fail: Alms Collector beats new Mirri in combat.

But yeah Mirri is sick. Would try in Maverick, and always happy when the Weatherlight crew gets some love.

[Jerry9]

Is Alms Collector a rules change? A template of "draw two cards" translates to "draw a card; draw a card" in game actions. Pretty sure Collector never triggers unless they invented technology to batch draws together.

[Barook]

Flavor fail: Alms Collector beats new Mirri in combat.
If you look closer, the entire card is a massive flavor fail. Dueling Grounds at least made sense since those were actual 1on1s.

But this? Either you stomp your opponent with an entire army or you gang up on the single chucklefuck who was dumb enough to take the invitation to the duel.


http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/9d/9daf03257e9f17860abea4055f298a0946c375d577e44d72d2c2d77814768505.jpg

[Fox]

Is Alms Collector a rules change? A template of "draw two cards" translates to "draw a card; draw a card" in game actions. Pretty sure Collector never triggers unless they invented technology to batch draws together.

The wording is pretty poor, but if it was done correctly it would be 'too complex' for the new players. It should read "if an opponent would draw two or more cards before SBAs are checked..."

[Darkenslight]

Is Alms Collector a rules change? A template of "draw two cards" translates to "draw a card; draw a card" in game actions. Pretty sure Collector never triggers unless they invented technology to batch draws together.

Well, sort of. What happens is that the events on Brainsorom are set out as "Draw a card. Draw a card.. Draw a card. Put a card on top. Put a card on top." However, the whole effect is "Draw three cards, then put two cards from your hand on top of your library." So, the logic is that with Alms Collector on the 'field, you have instead, "You and X draw a card. X puts a card on top. X puts a card on top." The reason being you have two consecutive "Draw a card" events.

[Barook]

"Herald's Horn" - :3:
Artifact - Uncommon
When ~ ETBs, choose a creature type.
Creature spells you cast of the chosen type cost :1: less to cast.
At the beginning of your Upkeep, you may reveal the top card of your library. If it's a creature card of the chosen type, you may put it into your hand.

Less cost reduction than Urza's Incubator, but with the upside of potentially creating card advantage in the long run. Question is if there are any tribes that could get good use out of it in Legacy.

Edit: There's also this:

:5::g::g:
Instant
Choose a creature type. Reveal the top cards of your library until you reveal X creatures of the chosen type, where X is the number of creatures you control of the chosen type, and place them onto the battlefield. Shuffle the other revealed cards into your library.

Pretty sure this is too expensive, even for Elves.

[keys]

Stalking Leonin is probably best used with Vial to ambush an alpha strike. "Recharging" with Flickerwisp is nifty, but having both the requirements of "attacking" and "target" limits its usefulness quite a bit. The opponent could also just kill it before combat for it to do jackshit.

http://227rsi2stdr53e3wto2skssd7xe-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Alms_Collector_EN.png

A 4 mana flash card is NOT how you fucking combat Brainstorm.

I just don't think the 4 toughness and flash is enough to make it playable over Spirit of the Labyrinth in white. At least Notion Thief pitches to FoW.

[Ephemeron]

Edit: There's also this:

:5::g::g:
Instant
Choose a creature type. Reveal the top cards of your library until you reveal X creatures of the chosen type, where X is the number of creatures you control of the chosen type, and place them onto the battlefield. Shuffle the other revealed cards into your library.

Pretty sure this is too expensive, even for Elves.

I wonder if there's a way to abuse this with Eldrazi. Like just play the massive eldrazi along with stuff like Awakening Zone and Warping Wail that spit out eldrazi scions so you can have eldrazi in play without diluting your deck with shit like Endless One.

[kombatkiwi]

I wonder if there's a way to abuse this with Eldrazi. Like just play the massive eldrazi along with stuff like Awakening Zone and Warping Wail that spit out eldrazi scions so you can have eldrazi in play without diluting your deck with shit like Endless One.

This is a cool idea but don't know if it's really any better than Descendants' Path if you want to build that deck.
Edit: I kind of want to try this with the new Scry 3 UG awakening card

[Darkenslight]

http://media.wizards.com/2017/c17/en_lcRYamFmku.png

Welp, that's possibly A Thing for certain tribes.

[mistercakes]

Hard to fit into a deck, but might be worth trying with tokens.

At the worst it seems fun with some slivers. Sliver queen + basal sliver.

[rufus]

Territorial Hellkite seems pretty decent if you think of it as 6 damage with a bonus.

A lot of the stuff people are speculating about just seems to be way too expensive for what it does to see legacy use.

Herald's Horn - 3 mana and a card where you need to top deck 1 of the appropriate creatures and cast 3 of them to break even?

How often do tribal decks get to 5 mana?

Bloodline Necromancer could have some potential somewhere.

[Zombie]

Hard to fit into a deck, but might be worth trying with tokens.

At the worst it seems fun with some slivers. Sliver queen + basal sliver.

Every time someone mentions something fun with Slivers I remember that Gemhide is 1G instead of G as originally spoiled :'(

[PirateKing]

Every time someone mentions something fun with Slivers I remember that Gemhide is 1G instead of G as originally spoiled :'(
Costs just :g: with Herald's Horn out :cool:

So far all I'm seeing is cool Commander stuff for Commander. Nothing priced well for Legacy.
I could see Mirri, Weatherlight Duelist seeing play in a Maverick/Zoo, attacking in with her and a Goyf/KotR or two could break some boardstates to your advantage.

Still waiting for the Flusterstorm/Baleful Strix/Shardless Agent quality stuff to come down.

[MaximumC]

Costs just :g: with Herald's Horn out :cool:

So far all I'm seeing is cool Commander stuff for Commander. Nothing priced well for Legacy.
I could see Mirri, Weatherlight Duelist seeing play in a Maverick/Zoo, attacking in with her and a Goyf/KotR or two could break some boardstates to your advantage.


I agree. So far, nothing appears eternal playable except Mirri, and even that is a big, big stretch.



Still waiting for the Flusterstorm/Baleful Strix/Shardless Agent quality stuff to come down.

Well, keep waiting. They're much more careful about these decks since the fiasco with True Name Nemesis. They will put some plants in the set, but'll be more like Magus of the Wheel and/or Magus of the Will, I would imagine.

[Darkenslight]

Two new spoilers:

Fortunate Few
3WW
Sorcery
Choose a nonland permanent you don’t control, then each other player chooses a nonland permanent he or she doesn’t control that hasn’t been chosen this way. Destroy all other nonland permanents.
“… Is it over?”

================

Boneyard Scourge
2BB
Creature - Zombie Dragon - 4/3
Flying
Whenever a Dragon you control dies while Boneyard Scourge is in your graveyard, you may pay 1B. If you do, return Boneyard Scourge from your graveyard to the battlefield.

[Richard Cheese]

The wording is pretty poor, but if it was done correctly it would be 'too complex' for the new players. It should read "if an opponent would draw two or more cards before SBAs are checked..."

Nah, I think it works fine. It's a replacement effect, not a trigger, so although cards may only be drawn one at a time, you aren't actually waiting for cards to be drawn for the ability to work. Brainstorm basically reads "you and that guy each draw a card" before it even goes on the stack.

[rufus]

Nah, I think it works fine. It's a replacement effect, not a trigger, so although cards may only be drawn one at a time, you aren't actually waiting for cards to be drawn for the ability to work. Brainstorm basically reads "you and that guy each draw a card" before it even goes on the stack.

I always forget how replacement effects interact with draw as a cost on Psychic Vortex. I also wonder if this is a peer with single card draw replacement effects for the purposes of ability ordering.

[Barook]

http://mythicspoiler.com/c17/cards/mirroroftheforebears.jpg

Cheap enough to be playable in theory. I'm pretty sure there are ways to abuse this (other than Phyrexian Dreadnought :rolleyes:). Eldrazi? Merfolk?

[Icapica]

There's a disappointing lack of bears in the art for Mirror of the Forebears.

The effect seems interesting, but I'm not sure if there's any good enough use for it.

[Hopo]

That is basically Mirage Mirror light.

[Barook]

http://i.imgur.com/DrsFc9m.jpg

Too expensive/conditional to be any good in Legacy, even with the cost reduction, since it still costs 3 mana of one the worst, if not the worst, color combination in Magic. Cheating it into play with Preeminent Captain might be fun, but that's too clunky.

[H]

Too expensive/conditional to be any good in Legacy, even with the cost reduction, since it still costs 3 mana of one the worst, if not the worst, color combination in Magic. Cheating it into play with Preeminent Captain might be fun, but that's too clunky.

Yeah, unfortunately the only thing I think this is good for is EDH and some pretty nice art...

[kombatkiwi]

Boneyard Scourge seems kind of nuts (the 2BB dragon), it is a Dragon itself! As long as you have 1 in play and 1 in your graveyard then you have like endless undying 4/3 fliers for 1B. People have died to 3/3 griffins before so it doesn't seem like too much of a stretch.

Obviously not great against Swords to Plowshares but it seems good against e.g. Czech Pile as long as you can keep Deathrites off the table. Maybe this is the hypothetical B stompy finisher where you block Swords with Chalice of the void and use this to dominate combat.

Maybe it's a Nic Fit card (Every new 4 drop creature goes in Nic Fit right) because it also works with Cabal Therapy? Not sure.

[rufus]

...I'm pretty sure there are ways to abuse this (other than Phyrexian Dreadnought :rolleyes:). Eldrazi? Merfolk?

Just paying 3 for a clone isn't terrible. I think the tribal stuff mostly uses ETB triggers that this won't copy, so this isn't going to do much in those decks.

Allies and slivers could try it. I doubt it would improve either of them much.

Copying Lodestone Golem or Vryn Wingmare on the opponent's turn could be OK.

[BenBleiweiss]

http://media.wizards.com/2017/c17/en_kkHomijBXx.png

Good?

[BenBleiweiss]

http://static.starcitygames.com/sales/cardscans/MTG/C17/en/foil/m7v4BqpLsK0.jpg

Good enough?

[CptHaddock]

Sorin's Dad?

http://media.wizards.com/2017/c17/en_41iZZBXhco.png

[H]

Good?

Probably not, I can't really think of how you could abuse it or any deck that would really want such an expensive Angel's Grace.

That being said, Phasing! I do love me some Phasing.

#MakePhasingGreatAgain

[H]

http://static.starcitygames.com/sales/cardscans/MTG/C17/en/foil/m7v4BqpLsK0.jpg

Good enough?

Probably not, but add in Bounty Hunter and you've got a c-c-combo! :rolleyes:

Too bad BH isn't a Vampire though, would be funny for EDH.

[Fox]

Well it's about time phasing came back...but come on, putting "Teferi" in the title of a white card - pretty big flavor fail (all of these have spend blue mana somewhere on the card). Teferi's Protection should read "protection stuff -> if you spent blue mana, all permanents you control phase out." While far too expensive, this card also combos with Stasis (you can't skip an untap step you're already in the middle of).

Mirror of the Forebears is a pretty big miss sadly. R&D already printed Mimic, Mirror is worse than it, and it doesn't deal with Chalice...so another instance of play Sol Lands + Chalice and somehow also Dreadnought. In a world where Chalice is banned, it's probably ok to run a 1x where you either name creature type Dreadnought or Assembly Worker.

Honorable mention here for Standstill + Factory/Mutavault who can almost get away with running Mirror of the Forebears [Assembly Worker] and Kindred Discovery [Assembly Worker].

[MrGlantz]

http://media.wizards.com/2017/c17/en_kkHomijBXx.png

Good?

Seems good to me. Good vs a lot of combo. Sideboardable for sure.

Its especially cool in vintage where it beats all of the combo decks except for doomsday and hilarious vs Oath decks.

[maharis]

http://static.starcitygames.com/sales/cardscans/MTG/C17/en/foil/m7v4BqpLsK0.jpg

Good enough?

Not even close, unfortunately.

BUG gets Leovold
BWR gets this

Quite the company Wizards is running over there.

[Fox]

Seems good to me. Good vs a lot of combo. Sideboardable for sure.

Its especially cool in vintage where it beats all of the combo decks except for doomsday and hilarious vs Oath decks.

Would sooner run Faith's Shield or Angel's Grace. You don't get to play Batterskull or any tokens in your white deck if you run this - you're also not casting this through your own Thalia. Phasing is a proactive mechanic, though that is generally less apparent with damage removed from the stack; if you aren't running Dreadnoughts (or having a 1x Sapphire Charm with built-in backup mode draw a card) it's likely incorrect. On the surface though it saves you from an Emrakul hit (but C Priest is as quick, cheaper, and a wincon).

[TsumiBand]

That one dude that keeps getting Cursed looks so familiar

[kombatkiwi]

The Teferi card is pretty interesting
It's flexible
a) Fog
b) Counter any removal spell
c) Counter any discard / burn spell
c) Silence your opponent's storm turn

In a lot of situations it's almost like a 3-mana time stop (barring the counterspell aspect obviously which is unfortunately one of the most powerful elements of that card)

Sadly 3 mana is a lot even for all the things it can do, and how are you supposed to 'abuse' this? 3 mana Stifle for Dreadnought? No thanks. You could phase out all your permanents and float mana into an Armageddon or Death Cloud but that's even more expensive. Use it in response to your Nevinyrral's Disk activation maybe?

Markov is too expensive and doesn't do anything and the BRW 3/3 compares awfully to Leovold as already pointed out (not to mention Bob or other similar cards)

[Barook]

Suprised that they brought phasing back, out of all things. Now print a Sulfur Elemental for blue creatures, you goddamn chucklefucks.


Not even close, unfortunately.

BUG gets Leovold
BWR gets this
This

It's an inferior card in an inferior color combination. Not to mention the nonbo with exile effects.

As a beater, it's just okay, but still dies to every relevant removal spell. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the bounty counters lose their effect if Mathas leaves the battlefield? So removal for it in response to a bounty creature which is about to die and it does fuck all.

TL;DR:
It's shit.

[rufus]

The Teferi card is pretty interesting
It's flexible
a) Fog
b) Counter any removal spell
c) Counter any discard / burn spell
c) Silence your opponent's storm turn
...


You could stack it on top of a sweeper, but who has mana to cast this after Jokulhaups?

[morgan_coke]

I would be very interested in Tefere's Protection as a white counterspell at WW. At 2W it's bad news bears, sadly.

I mean, come on wizards, it's been pretty reliably proven that 3 mana is just too much for a purely reactive spell like this to see play in legacy. Get over yourself already.

[TsumiBand]

Suprised that they brought phasing back, out of all things. Now print a Sulfur Elemental for blue creatures, you goddamn chucklefucks.


This

It's an inferior card in an inferior color combination. Not to mention the nonbo with exile effects.

As a beater, it's just okay, but still dies to every relevant removal spell. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the bounty counters lose their effect if Mathas leaves the battlefield? So removal for it in response to a bounty creature which is about to die and it does fuck all.

TL;DR:
It's shit.

I'll preface this by acknowledging it's a tad gauche to comment on rules interactions with unreleased cards, but I'm pretty sure that the way it's worded means the effect persists even if Mathas leaves play somehow. It's basically worded the same way as Obsidian Fireheart apart from the relevant reminder text stating that the effect's duration is tied to the permanent having the counter in question on it.

[Barook]

I'll preface this by acknowledging it's a tad gauche to comment on rules interactions with unreleased cards, but I'm pretty sure that the way it's worded means the effect persists even if Mathas leaves play somehow. It's basically worded the same way as Obsidian Fireheart apart from the relevant reminder text stating that the effect's duration is tied to the permanent having the counter in question on it.
If that's the case, then it's going to be a rules mess with Bounty Hunter. And it's still alot of hoops to jump through to draw a card.

Edit:

I would be very interested in Tefere's Protection as a white counterspell at WW. At 2W it's bad news bears, sadly.

I mean, come on wizards, it's been pretty reliably proven that 3 mana is just too much for a purely reactive spell like this to see play in legacy. Get over yourself already.
Putting it on an Isochron Scepter would be a real bitch to deal with.

[morgan_coke]

If that's the case, then it's going to be a rules mess with Bounty Hunter. And it's still alot of hoops to jump through to draw a card.

Edit:

Putting it on an Isochron Scepter would be a real bitch to deal with.

Scepter-Chant already exists. Isn't a good deck.

[Darkenslight]

Suprised that they brought phasing back, out of all things. Now print a Sulfur Elemental for blue creatures, you goddamn chucklefucks.


This

It's an inferior card in an inferior color combination. Not to mention the nonbo with exile effects.

As a beater, it's just okay, but still dies to every relevant removal spell. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the bounty counters lose their effect if Mathas leaves the battlefield? So removal for it in response to a bounty creature which is about to die and it does fuck all.

TL;DR:
It's shit.

No. The effect stays on ,as it's inherent in the counter-placing ability.

Card is still shit when compared to Leo, though.

[maharis]

I'm intrigued by this card a bit:

https://i.redd.it/2xho58kg5qez.png

You only need to attack with one guy to untap all your other nonland permanents. Casting cost is reasonable. Thinking about multiple activations of Mom/Knight/DRS, potential synergy with Opposition or Glare of Subdual (on-color), Tangle Wire, the Elves engine, vehicles, etc.

[morgan_coke]

I'm intrigued by this card a bit:

https://i.redd.it/2xho58kg5qez.png

You only need to attack with one guy to untap all your other nonland permanents. Casting cost is reasonable. Thinking about multiple activations of Mom/Knight/DRS, potential synergy with Opposition or Glare of Subdual (on-color), Tangle Wire, the Elves engine, vehicles, etc.

Well, it would definitely work with Stasis.

[TsumiBand]

If that's the case, then it's going to be a rules mess with Bounty Hunter. And it's still alot of hoops to jump through to draw a card.

I think you're making a lot of assumptions about Bounty Hunter's role in the meta.

[PirateKing]

I think you're making a lot of assumptions about Bounty Hunter's role in the meta.

It doesn't need to be a good rules interaction to make it a messy rules interaction. Even if it never comes up in a sanctioned game doesn't mean it shouldn't have clarification. I'm waiting to see what that ruling is, if players are going to be expected to keep track of which bounty counter is from which source.

[morgan_coke]

Overall I'm mostly happy about these cards not being TNN/Leovold level. Those cards are frankly stupid and broken and we'd all be happier if they'd never been printed in current form, which is - enough to warp meta, but not enough to warrant banning.

The curses look interesting, though it's totally unsurprising that the white one is absolute trash (2 life? Seriously?), the blue and black ones look pretty strong.

[TsumiBand]

It doesn't need to be a good rules interaction to make it a messy rules interaction. Even if it never comes up in a sanctioned game doesn't mean it shouldn't have clarification. I'm waiting to see what that ruling is, if players are going to be expected to keep track of which bounty counter is from which source.

I think we can safely infer the rules from the clarifications made around Obsidian Fireheart. I'll isolate two:


10/1/2009 If all blaze counters on a land are moved to a different land, the triggered ability doesn’t follow them. The first land no longer has the ability because it no longer has a blaze counter on it. The second land doesn’t have the ability because Obsidian Fireheart didn’t target it.
10/1/2009 If a land ends up with more than one blaze counter on it (thanks to Doubling Season or Gilder Bairn, for example), the ability still only causes it to deal 1 damage to its controller each turn.

So when an effect moves the land's blaze counter(s) from Land A to Land B, we see that Land A no longer deals damage to the player because it doesn't satisfy the conditions, and Land B will not deal damage because it was never targeted by Obsidian Fireheart so it doesn't have the extra text on it in the first place.

Mathas's wording is virtually identical to this card and so I would expect it to work the same; the creature targeted by Mathas essentially gains "If -this- has a bounty counter on it, when this dies Do The Thing". If that counter is moved to a new target, that wording doesn't move with it. If the original creature gains a new bounty counter from Bounty Hunter, it would be eligible to trigger the ability on death again.

Really I don't think we'll have to track the counters and their source, so much as we'll have to track which creatures were targeted by Mathas in the first place, since that's where the triggered ability is basically being appended to its existing text.

[MaximumC]

Seems good to me. Good vs a lot of combo. Sideboardable for sure.

Its especially cool in vintage where it beats all of the combo decks except for doomsday and hilarious vs Oath decks.

If it's cheap, this is a budget option for Ad Naseum decks. Like, a really bad one. Like, you need eight mana in a single turn to even start comboing out.

[rufus]

...Casting cost is reasonable. ...

Certainly the most significant factor in the cards so far. The red curse is also a little interesting since it's potentially free ramp.

[BenBleiweiss]

Confirmed incoming rules change to Phasing:

Matt Tabak‏ @TabakRules 45m45 minutes ago
More
Effective 8/25 (#MTGC17 release), we're changing the rules so tokens can phase out and phase back in. Batterskulls rejoice! #WotCstaff

and

Matt Tabak‏ @TabakRules 3h3 hours ago
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Phased out permanents neither leave nor enter the battlefield. You just pretend they aren't there for a time. #WotCstaff

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Matt Tabak‏ @TabakRules 45m45 minutes ago
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Phased out tokens never leave the battlefield, and them exploding was an unnecessary nod to original functionality. Cleaner system now.