The new Legacy metagame

[btm10]

You want to do your busted thing ASAP, and make the game about as little interaction as possible.


Isn't this just the Legacy version of aggro winning week one? Also, Goldfish​ has Grixis Delver as the #1 deck and BUG Delver at #4, and combined they're a larger share of the meta than ANT+Sneak (#2 and #3). I realize that their data isn't exclusively drawn from online events (and that we could be seeing a 5-0 vs. 'the field' effect), but online has a big effect on their numbers. I don't think it's time to panic.

[Nestalim]

Isn't this just the Legacy version of aggro winning week one? Also, Goldfish​ has Grixis Delver as the #1 deck and BUG Delver at #4, and combined they're a larger share of the meta than ANT+Sneak (#2 and #3). I realize that their data isn't exclusively drawn from online events (and that we could be seeing a 5-0 vs. 'the field' effect), but online has a big effect on their numbers. I don't think it's time to panic.


Except that aggro can be grind out, which is not the case of those decks. And yeah, pretty cool that the only other options seems to be.. Delver deck. Yeah.

[Claymore]

All those Miracles players had to go somewhere. I saw the ones in my shop go to Show and Tell and Grixis Delver. They're the two clear 'next-up' best decks, and that's what the Standard format pros play when forced into Legacy anyway.

[CptHaddock]

Except that aggro can be grind out, which is not the case of those decks. And yeah, pretty cool that the only other options seems to be.. Delver deck. Yeah.

Are you saying that ANT & Skill and Show can't be hated out?

How long have you actually been playing this format?

[Dice_Box]

I will say this for SnT right now, playing Omni means it has a better chance against DnT than it use to. Still, I would want to be on the DnT side of that match most of the time.

[btm10]

I will say this for SnT right now, playing Omni means it has a better chance against DnT than it use to. Still, I would want to be on the DnT side of that match most of the time.

BUG Delver still wrecks both decks if its set up properly, and while I don't have as much experience with Grixis, it seems pretty similar. Looking at 5-0 lists there seems to be a bit of a lag in the Delver players adopting the sort of aggressively anti-combo MD configurations we typically saw pre-Miracles (when things like 4 Hymn, 2 Pierce BUG Delver maindecks were common). We're still getting a lot of 5-6 spot removal spells rather than 12+ discard+counters.

[Nestalim]

Are you saying that ANT & Skill and Show can't be hated out?

How long have you actually been playing this format?

What you are saying doesn't follow what I had said. Please read correctly next time.



BUG Delver still wrecks both decks if its set up properly, and while I don't have as much experience with Grixis, it seems pretty similar.

No it doesn't. Bug Delver will fall a lot against S&T or Storm. Grixis has better hate against combo and reach.

[Smuggo]

Do people really have such trouble with SnT decks? Like all combo decks it is fragile as hell. If the combo is disrupted it basically does nothing.

Of course it can get that crazy t1 combo off very occasionally, but most of the time they sit there getting whacked for a turn or two, their combo gets disrupted, they spend a couple of turns trying to rebuild and by then they're dead.

[Nestalim]

Do people really have such trouble with SnT decks? Like all combo decks it is fragile as hell. If the combo is disrupted it basically does nothing.

Of course it can get that crazy t1 combo off very occasionally, but most of the time they sit there getting whacked for a turn or two, their combo gets disrupted, they spend a couple of turns trying to rebuild and by then they're dead.

It is not about the speed of the deck, but rather how resilient it is. You can't mess with it such easily, the deck can pack a lot of counter and has diversity in its build.

[JDK]

If only instead of sdt we banned another card... One that pushed all T1 decks equally instead of just killing the top control deck of the format...
Oh, you are one of those...


Of course it can get that crazy t1 combo off very occasionally, but most of the time they sit there getting whacked for a turn or two, their combo gets disrupted, they spend a couple of turns trying to rebuild and by then they're dead.
Yes, SnT rarely has protection for their combo. :]

[Smuggo]

They have protection sure but your average delver deck runs 8 counters mainboard and probably 11+ post board. They need a lot of the right things in hand to go off.

[Chatto]

They have protection sure but your average delver deck runs 8 counters mainboard and probably 11+ post board. They need a lot of the right things in hand to go off.

True, but that's why Boseiju is still relevant.

[btm10]

No it doesn't. Bug Delver will fall a lot against S&T or Storm. Grixis has better hate against combo and reach.

The matchups aren't​ 80/20 if that's what you mean, but they're solidly in BUG's favor. And I definitely disagree that Grixis is significantly better against either deck. The only unique cards Grixis gets against either are Blasts, which are fine but mostly come in because they're better than maindeck cards like Gurmag Angler/TNN and Lightning Bolt.

[Minniehajj]

The matchups aren't​ 80/20 if that's what you mean, but they're solidly in BUG's favor. And I definitely disagree that Grixis is significantly better against either deck. The only unique cards Grixis gets against either are Blasts, which are fine but mostly come in because they're better than maindeck cards like Gurmag Angler/TNN and Lightning Bolt.

You're forgetting Probe+Therapy+Pyromancer, which is the main reason to play Grixis over BUG in my opinion.

[btm10]

You're forgetting Probe+Therapy+Pyromancer, which is the main reason to play Grixis over BUG in my opinion.

I totally get that - I've played Grixis. Pyromancer+Probe+Therapy is a very powerful interaction, but it's also contingent on having all 3 pieces. Combo decks are particularly difficult to blind Therapy effectively (since they tend to just be cantripping if they aren't trying to go off) which makes​ even Pyromancer + Therapy only marginally better than Thoughtseize. Let's not pretend that Hymn isn't extremely potent disruption, especially when paired with countermagic.

[JDK]

They have protection sure but your average delver deck runs 8 counters mainboard and probably 11+ post board. They need a lot of the right things in hand to go off.
Against 8 counters mainboard and probably 10+ post board. :wink:

[Miscanthus]

?... Let's not pretend that Hymn isn't extremely potent disruption, especially when paired with countermagic.

Second this.

Speaking as a Storm player (both ANT and TES), I fear Hymn to Tourach a _lot_ more than the Probe-Therapy-Pyromancer triumvirate.
Part of the reason for this (in my experience) is that barring a lucky hand from the Grixis player, they are unlikely to have all their parts together and castable before turn three (yes, they might have been able to probe-therapy before then, but this is essentially just a Thoughtseize in most cases). By then a storm player has either gone off, or has cantripped to the point where they are pretty resilient to discard (and may well have gotten off a few discard spells of their own on the Grixis player).
Hymn to Tourach, on the other hand, regularly hits on turn two (again in my experience), where it both _always_ gets two cards (very significant for a combo deck), and is usually early enough to prevent most hand sculpting with cantrips. This, combined with the Delver deck's typically quick clock, is often enough to win the game.

For primarily this reason I have found the Hymn BUG Delver matchup to be among the most difficult of the Delver decks (considerably more so than Grixis Delver).

[Ellomdian]

So, one of the more interesting (for me) aspects of the 'New Meta' is that Control variants now have to actually try to win the f'ing game, instead of sitting back on piles and piles of filtering and CounterTop lock waiting for an Entreat or a Mentor to get around to checking the box.

I really feel like some of the people who are most ingrained in 'spin top, shuffle, spin top, brainstorm, spin top, whatever, MIRACLES, win game' are suffering because they have to get back to a reasonable clock. It's painful to watch someone play Grix Delver like a draw-go control deck, and it's downright laughable how much permission they are trying to shove back into Show variants. If you want to beat elves reliably, you can't waste time not going off for 3 or 4 turns...

[tescrin]

It's nice to see my local meta playing around with Patriot/Esper control. Yeah, they look a lot like slow midrange decks; but they grind you out in the expected manner. I enjoy that, while I haven't brought any, grave-recurrent creatures matter again [especially with Push making Grixis/Bug more attractive.]

Sadly enough, the zombardment/4c-grave guy is no longer in my area, as he could probably make his way in this meta a lot better.

[Crimhead]

True, but that's why Boseiju is still relevant.
Really? Is there anything currently playing this with success?

Edit - genuine surprise and genuine question.

[CptHaddock]

Really? Is there anything currently playing this with success?

Edit - genuine surprise and genuine question.

I think people still play it as maybe a 1 off in their skill and show deck but it seems kind of bad when people are killing you turn 2-3 or you are battling against the soft counter/discard deck that also plays wasteland and a flying 3/2.

[Nestalim]

Really? Is there anything currently playing this with success?

Edit - genuine surprise and genuine question.

During the Miracle Era, S&T used to pack one or two boseijtu in side, as it was totally destroying the match-up.

[Smuggo]

Yeah I've seen Boseiju's come out when playing S&T before but not very often.

[ironclad8690]

Sadly enough, the zombardment/4c-grave guy is no longer in my area, as he could probably make his way in this meta a lot better.

Rest in Peace Zombardment guy :cool:

[Scott]

Hareruya has had 6 Legacy tournaments of at least 6 rounds since the Top ban. Do you guys want me to add them to the data I've been compiling?

I rarely see Japanese tournaments in meta data. I see no reason not to (the decks aren't that wacky), and I assume it's just harder to find, but I figured I'd ask before I added it.

[Dice_Box]

Hareruya has had 6 Legacy tournaments of at least 6 rounds since the Top ban. Do you guys want me to add them to the data I've been compiling?

I rarely see Japanese tournaments in meta data. I see no reason not to (the decks aren't that wacky), and I assume it's just harder to find, but I figured I'd ask before I added it.

Fuck yes. More numbers are always good.

[danyul]

I dunno if this was the thread where everybody was worried about combo taking over, but here's the latest MTGO 5-0 league decks:

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2017-05-11

BUG midrange city. Also keep in mind that these are "randomly" selected, for whatever that's worth.

[Megadeus]

I dunno if this was the thread where everybody was worried about combo taking over, but here's the latest MTGO 5-0 league decks:

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2017-05-11

BUG midrange city. Also keep in mind that these are "randomly" selected, for whatever that's worth.

Looks like more people need to be playing Llawan.

[Scott]

Hypodermic injection into the paper meta data--

Big Magic Open Vol.9 - Sunday Legacy, 267 players, May 4 (http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/deck/search.aspx?search.x=true&tournament_name=BIG+MAGIC+OPEN+Vol.9+-+Sunday+Legacy&format=Legacy)
Death & Taxes, Burn, Eldrazi, U/R Delver, U/R Delver, Grixis Tempo, Grixis Control, Reanimator Depths, Team America, Grixis Tempo, Grixis Control, Imperial Painter, Grixis Tempo, OmniTell, Mono-Red Sneak Attack, ANT

Cardbox Open Vol. 1, 137 players,
May 7 (http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/deck/search.aspx?search.x=true&tournament_name=CARDBOX+OPEN+Vol.1+-+%E3%82%AA%E3%83%BC%E3%83%97%E3%83%B3%E3%83%AC%E3%82%AC%E3%82%B7%E3%83%BC&format=Legacy)
Grixis Tempo, OmniTell, U/R Delver, ANT, Esperblade, Jund, Eldrazi, Infect

53 players, May 3 (http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/deck/search.aspx?search.x=true&tournament_name=%E6%99%B4%E3%82%8C%E3%82%8B%E5%B1%8B%E3%83%AC%E3%82%AC%E3%82%B7%E3%83%BC%E6%9D%AF+-+2017%2f05%2f03&format=Legacy)
Esperblade, Grixis Control, U/R Delver, Grixis Tempo, Infect, BUG unclassified, Merfolk, U/R Delver

53 players, April 29 (http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/deck/search.aspx?search.x=true&tournament_name=%E6%99%B4%E3%82%8C%E3%82%8B%E5%B1%8B%E3%83%AC%E3%82%AC%E3%82%B7%E3%83%BC%E6%9D%AF+-+2017%2f04%2f29&format=Legacy)
Sneak & Show, ANT, U/R Control, Eldrazi & Taxes, 12-Post, U/R Control, ANT, Elves

43 players, April 30 (http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/deck/search.aspx?search.x=true&tournament_name=%E6%99%B4%E3%82%8C%E3%82%8B%E5%B1%8B%E3%83%AC%E3%82%AC%E3%82%B7%E3%83%BC%E6%9D%AF+-+2017%2f04%2f30&format=Legacy)
U/R Delver, B/R Reanimator, Elves, Grixis Control, BWG unclassified, Grixis Tempo, Eldrazi, OmniTell

33 players, May 5 (http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/deck/search.aspx?search.x=true&tournament_name=%E6%99%B4%E3%82%8C%E3%82%8B%E5%B1%8BGPT+-+GPT%E3%83%A9%E3%82%B9%E3%83%99%E3%82%AC%E3%82%B9&format=Legacy)
Aggro Loam, Dredge, ANT, Merfolk, Grixis Tempo, Dragon Stompy, Doomsday, Merfolk

Win A Dual 22 Tübingen, 42 players, May 7 (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15481&f=LE)
Grixis Tempo, Team America, Aggro Loam, Grixis Tempo, Esperblade, Grixis Tempo, Infect, Sneak & Show

48 players, May 7 (http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/deck/search.aspx?search.x=true&tournament_name=%E6%99%B4%E3%82%8C%E3%82%8B%E5%B1%8B%E3%83%81%E3%83%BC%E3%83%A0%E3%83%AC%E3%82%AC%E3%82%B7%E3%83%BC%E6%9D%AF+-+2017%2f05%2f07&format=Legacy)
U/R Delver, Tin Fins, Elves, Dragon Stompy, Elves, Infect, OmniTell, Oops, All Spells, Death & Taxes, Food Chain, Eldrazi, Belcher

Added to the previous numbers from MKM Frankfurt, Axion GPT, Arcanis, Valhalla's Gate, Spellhold GPT, Circuito, Olympus Roè Volciano, Duel for Duals, and Magic Master Series

1359 total points
50 different placing archetypes in 6+ round tournaments
DTB ≥ 62.514 points
DTBs: Grixis Tempo, Sneak & Show, Infect, ANT, OmniTell, U/R Delver, Death & Taxes, Elves

Grixis Tempo: 168
Infect: 84
Sneak & Show: 83
ANT: 73
OmniTell: 70
U/R Delver: 69
Elves: 63
Death & Taxes: 64
Eldrazi: 59
Team America: 49
Bant Deathblade: 45
B/R Reanimator: 44
Esperblade: 38
Czech Pile: 37
Grixis Control: 33
Burn: 27
Aggro Loam: 26
Food Chain: 25
Maverick: 19
Merfolk: 19
Aluren: 18
Jund: 18
Eldrazi & Taxes: 14
Dragon Stompy: 13
U/R Control: 13
4c Delver: 10
U/B Reanimator: 10
BUG Leovold: 9
Canadian Thresh: 9
Esper Delver: 9
Imperial Painter: 9
Mono-Red Sneak Attack: 9
Reanimator Depths: 9
UWR Control: 9
Dredge: 8
Junk: 8
Tin Fins: 8
UWr Stoneblade: 8
Dark Depths: 7
TES: 7
12-Post: 6
Belcher: 6
Big Eldrazi: 6
BUG unclassified: 6
BWG unclassified: 6
Doomsday: 6
Nic Fit: 6
Oops, All Spells: 6
Shardless BUG: 6
UWR Delver: 6

[Megadeus]

This meta looks fucking ripe for Deadguy with a good pilot. I think my old Revoker list probably can roll that top tier

[Nicklas]

Where can I find info about this Arcanis tournament? Google doesn't help and I am curious about the Esper Delver decklist.
Thanks in advance! :)

[Scott]

So far their site just has the top 8 profiles (http://arcanisproject.com/articulos/super-legacy-top-8-profiles-ad-ix), but hopefully they'll post the deck lists here (http://arcanisproject.com/decks/legacy) or here (http://arcanisproject.com/formato/legacy) soon.

[glowparty]

Rest in Peace Zombardment guy :cool:

I love when people board in Rest In Peace!

Let me just tear you apart with Garruk, blossoms, jittes, confidants...

[Scott]

Four tournaments added:

Legacy Win-A-Dual @ Fire & Dice, 59 players, May 6 (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15469&d=294225&f=LE)
Sneak & Show, U/R Standstill, ANT, Dragon Stompy, Burn, Elves, Grixis Tempo, B/R Reanimator

Known Magicians Clan - 77th, 54 players, May 13 (http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/deck/search.aspx?search.x=true&tournament_name=Known+Magicians+Clan+-+77th&format=Legacy)
R/G Lands, Tin Fins, ANT, Esper Delver, OmniTell (BUG), U/W Blade Control, U/R Delver, Elves

MLL#10 Legacy Milano, 49 players, May 7 (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=23168)
Bant Deathblade, Burn, Death & Taxes, Team America, Grixis Control, U/R Control, Bant Deathblade, Team America

MKM Trial Hamburg - Ollis Spielecenter Hamburg, 35 players, May 6 (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=23174)
UWR Delver, Bant Deathblade, Splinter Twin, Eldrazi, U/B Reanimator, Infect, Eldrazi & Taxes, ANT

1579 total points
54 different placing archetypes in 6+ round tournaments from April 24 to now
DTB ≥ 72.634 points
DTBs so far, but in flux: Grixis Tempo, ANT, Sneak & Show, Infect, OmniTell, Elves, U/R Delver

Grixis Tempo: 174
ANT: 93
Sneak & Show: 92
Infect: 90
OmniTell: 76
Elves: 75
U/R Delver: 75
Death & Taxes: 71
Bant Deathblade: 68
Eldrazi: 66
Team America: 62
B/R Reanimator: 50
Burn: 41
Grixis Control: 39
Esperblade: 38
Czech Pile: 37
Aggro Loam: 26
Food Chain: 25
Dragon Stompy: 20
Eldrazi & Taxes: 20
Maverick: 19
Merfolk: 19
U/R Control: 19
Aluren: 18
Jund: 18
Esper Delver: 16
Tin Fins: 16
U/B Reanimator: 16
UWR Delver: 15
4c Delver: 10
BUG Leovold: 9
Canadian Thresh: 9
Imperial Painter: 9
Mono-Red Sneak Attack: 9
Reanimator Depths: 9
R/G Lands: 9
UWR Control: 9
Dredge: 8
Junk: 8
U/R Standstill: 8
UWr Stoneblade: 8
Dark Depths: 7
Splinter Twin: 7
TES: 7
12-Post: 6
Belcher: 6
Big Eldrazi: 6
BUG unclassified: 6
BWG unclassified: 6
Doomsday: 6
Nic Fit: 6
Oops, All Spells: 6
Shardless BUG: 6
U/W Blade Control: 6

[Ingo]

...

Reanimator Depths: 9
...



Thanks for this list Scott.

Could you elaborate what's Reanimator Depths? I suppose a hybrid between Depths-combo and Reanimator, but could you give a link to such a list?

EDIT: Nevermind, found the list by backtracking your posts.
I don't think I ever saw such a list, and it surprises me that it's listed 9 times, that's almost as much as UB Reanimator at 10.

[Lava Snacks]

Relevant question: What deck beats the snot out of combo and Delver decks? :laugh:

[Dice_Box]

Relevant question: What deck beats the snot out of combo and Delver decks? :laugh:
Stax.

[Zombie]

Relevant question: What deck beats the snot out of combo and Delver decks? :laugh:

In general for fair decks, the spectrum is from [disruptive aggression] (example: BUG Delver) to [grindy value or huge bombs] (Shardless, Elves, Nic Fit). Closer you are to the former, the more you prey on combo, closer you are to the latter, the more you eat fair decks and lose to combo.

Within combo decks, it's speed vs. resiliency/disruptive capacity. The faster, the better you kill other combo decks, but also the worse you lose to Force of Will. Slower decks can incorporate resiliency tools - countermagic, discard, better engines, a fair gameplan and so on, but suffer in their matchup against other combo decks.

Fundamentally, you eat Delver by out-fairing it. You eat combo by killing it dead fast. These are not typically possible at the same time, but as Dice_Box said above, both combo and Delver tend to be low to the ground aggressive low-curve decks that don't play a ton of creatures so prison pieces hit them hard.

[Scott]

Thanks for this list Scott.

Could you elaborate what's Reanimator Depths? I suppose a hybrid between Depths-combo and Reanimator, but could you give a link to such a list?

EDIT: Nevermind, found the list by backtracking your posts.
I don't think I ever saw such a list, and it surprises me that it's listed 9 times, that's almost as much as UB Reanimator at 10.

You're very welcome.

It's actually not that it's placed 9 times. I'm using TCDecks's/The Source's system, which only counts tournaments of at least 6 rounds, and awards placing decks 1 point for each round of the tournament, and 1 point for each match won in the top 8. So, since the ban, Reanimator Depths came in 8th in a 9 round tournament, so gets 9 points for that one placing. I don't quite understand the deck myself :tongue: And U/B Reanimator has 16 points because it placed in a 10 round tournament and in a 6 round tournament, without top 8 wins in either.

[Lava Snacks]

Stax.


In general for fair decks, the spectrum is from [disruptive aggression] (example: BUG Delver) to [grindy value or huge bombs] (Shardless, Elves, Nic Fit). Closer you are to the former, the more you prey on combo, closer you are to the latter, the more you eat fair decks and lose to combo.

Within combo decks, it's speed vs. resiliency/disruptive capacity. The faster, the better you kill other combo decks, but also the worse you lose to Force of Will. Slower decks can incorporate resiliency tools - countermagic, discard, better engines, a fair gameplan and so on, but suffer in their matchup against other combo decks.

Fundamentally, you eat Delver by out-fairing it. You eat combo by killing it dead fast. These are not typically possible at the same time, but as Dice_Box said above, both combo and Delver tend to be low to the ground aggressive low-curve decks that don't play a ton of creatures so prison pieces hit them hard.

Not bad advice.

[Zombie]

Not bad advice.

Also BUG Delver can kinda hang with anything. It's probably the best Delver deck against combo due to maindeck DRS and tons of discard and is usually close enough to midrange to hang around in fair MUs, even going over the top of the most aggressive Delver builds.

[Dice_Box]

Ellomdian, I do quite well against tempo with Stax. In fact thanks to Walking Ballista and a trio of Tabernacles I quite like the matchup. Add to that Ensnaring Bridge and all the tempo slides away into a sea of hurt. You laugh, but I don't often lose that match. I see your Delver and raise you a Triskellion.

The weakness I have with Stax is Nic Fit and Fish. Mostly for the same reason. One has Deed, the other Recall. Both set me back to the stone age.

[H]

You're very welcome.

It's actually not that it's placed 9 times. I'm using TCDecks's/The Source's system, which only counts tournaments of at least 6 rounds, and awards placing decks 1 point for each round of the tournament, and 1 point for each match won in the top 8. So, since the ban, Reanimator Depths came in 8th in a 9 round tournament, so gets 9 points for that one placing. I don't quite understand the deck myself :tongue: And U/B Reanimator has 16 points because it placed in a 10 round tournament and in a 6 round tournament, without top 8 wins in either.

One of our locals plays it, although I have no idea if it is the exact same list. It's about what you'd think it is, but since he is planning on playing it in some bigger tournaments, I won't spell out his list just yet. Once those are done, I can probably share his list.

[Megadeus]

One of our locals plays it, although I have no idea if it is the exact same list. It's about what you'd think it is, but since he is planning on playing it in some bigger tournaments, I won't spell out his list just yet. Once those are done, I can probably share his list.

The Reanimator depths list is out there. My friend sent it to me the other day

[H]

The Reanimator depths list is out there. My friend sent it to me the other day

Yeah, our local guy certainly didn't invent it because I recall him showing me the list on some site, but I do believe he changed at least a few cards in his particular version.

[mistercakes]

this was the list posted on this week in legacy:

4 Collective Brutality
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Exhume
2 Grave Titan
2 Griselbrand
2 Lotus Petal
3 Pithing Needle
1 Platinum Angel
2 Reanimate
1 Rite of Consumption
1 Shallow Grave
4 Thoughtseize
4 Vampire Hexmage
10 Swamp
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

1 Duress
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Fatal Push
1 Helm of Obedience
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Rite of Consumption
2 Surgical Extraction

[twndomn]

As everyone knows, MTGO now has weekly Legacy Challenge, used to be monthly.

Result: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-premier-2017-05-14

[CptHaddock]

As everyone knows, MTGO now has weekly Legacy Challenge, used to be monthly.

Result: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-premier-2017-05-14

For a saner way of looking at lists (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/tournament/legacy-challenge-10616514#online).

[Scott]

Gaming for Gains, 61 players, May 13
Aluren, Sneak & Show, Pox, ANT, Food Chain, B/R Reanimator, U/R Delver, Nic Fit
No deck lists yet

Mox Boarding House, 56 players, May 7 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30223-Card-Kingdom-Mox-Boarding-House-Legacy-Metagame-Results&p=1007860&viewfull=1#post1007860)
UWR Landstill, Team America, Grixis Tempo, UWR Stoneblade, U/B Reanimator, RUG Lands, R/G Lands, Devoted Maverick Combo

Knight Ware, 47 players, May 14 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31554-Los-Angeles-CA-Knight-Ware-Sunday-5-14-2017-20-25-Trop-Tundra-Vegas-GPT-1&p=1007977#post1007977)
R/G Lands, U/R Delver, Nic Fit, Dredge, Sneak & Show, UWR Stoneblade, Grixis Tempo, Jund

GPT Paragon, 37 players, May 13 (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15546&f=LE)
Slivers, UWR Stoneblade, Death & Taxes, Jund, Esper Deathblade, Grixis Tempo, OmniTell, BUG Leovold

Following TCDecks/The Source's system, decks get 1 point for each round of the tournament, plus 1 point for each top 8 match won
1799 total points
59 different placing archetypes in 6+ round tournaments from April 24 to now
DTB ≥ 82.754 points
Post-Top DTBs so far: Grixis Tempo, ANT, Sneak & Show, Infect, U/R Delver, almost OmniTell

Grixis Tempo: 193
Sneak & Show: 106
ANT: 100
Infect: 90
U/R Delver: 89
OmniTell: 82
Death & Taxes: 78
Elves: 75
Team America: 70
Bant Deathblade: 68
Eldrazi: 66
B/R Reanimator: 56
Burn: 41
Grixis Control: 39
Esperblade: 38
Czech Pile: 37
Food Chain: 31
Jund: 31
Lands: 30
UWR Stoneblade: 29
Aluren: 27
Aggro Loam: 26
U/B Reanimator: 22
20 Points: Dragon Stompy, Eldrazi & Taxes
19 Points: Maverick, Merfolk, Nic Fit, U/R Control
16 Points: Esper Delver, Tin Fins
15 Points: BUG Leovold, Dredge UWR Delver
4c Delver: 10
9 Points: Canadian Thresh, Imperial Painter, Mono-Red Sneak Attack, Reanimator Depths, Slivers, UWR Control, UWR Landstill
8 Points: Junk, U/R Standstill
7 Points: Dark Depths, Pox, Splinter Twin
6 Points: 12-Post, Belcher, Big Eldrazi, BUG unclassified, BWG unclassified, Devoted Maverick Combo, Doomsday, Esper Deathblade, Oops, All Spells, Shardless BUG, TES, U/W Blade Control

[CptHaddock]

Not to be a stickler here but how are you classifying the different blade archetypes?

I assume Bant = 4 Hiearchs, 4 DRS?
Deathblade = 4 DRS?
Esperblade = No DRS? Old school stoneblade?

[JDK]

Bant Deathblade
Esperblade
UWR Stoneblade
Esper Deathblade
U/W Blade Control

and probably also those UWR Control / UWR Landstill lists play SFM.

And of course there are DnT, Maverick, Eldrazi & Taxes and others playing the SFM package. But no, Miracles didn't push blade decks out of the format. :]

[tescrin]

Not to be a stickler here but how are you classifying the different blade archetypes?

I assume Bant = 4 Hiearchs, 4 DRS?
Deathblade = 4 DRS?
Esperblade = No DRS? Old school stoneblade?


Specifically he said:
Bant Deathblade (X DRS, X Hierarch, probably 3-4 / 4)
Esper Stoneblade (0 DRS)
Esper Deathblade (4 DRS)
U/W Blade Control (0 DRS)

Long story short:
Stoneblade or Blade Control = Stoneforge + Stuff, no DRS
Deathblade => Stoneforge + Stuff + DRS

For example, not shown is:
Bant Stoneblade (0 DRS, Hierarch + 0-4 GSZ)

which answers your second line.

[Scott]

Pretty much. The 8 Bant Deathblade decks like this (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=23075&iddeck=178601) all have DRS, Hierarch, Daze, Decay, Leovold, less discard.
The 5 Esperblade decks like this (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15458&d=294149&f=LE) all have :w::u::b: spells, no DRS, no Hierarch, no Leovold, no Decay.
The Esper Deathblade (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15546&d=294834&f=LE) deck has DRS, :w::u::b: spells, no Hierarch, no Leovold, no Decay.
But I can categorize them differently, no biggie.

[Jain_Mor]

Meta analysis for the Axion GPT, plust top8 an top16 deck lists

https://thelibraryatpendrellvale.com/brave-new-world-axion-mega-gpt-decklists-metagame/

[Scott]

Small update, two tournaments:

4Seasons Spring - Bologna, 130 players, May 14 (http://www.metagame.it/liste-mazzi-legacy/3095-legacy-top-8-4seasons-spring-bologna.html)
R/G Lands, ANT, Tezzeret Control, Aluren, Shardless BUG, Grixis Tempo, Grixis Control, Death & Taxes

晴れる屋レガシー杯, 41 players, May 14 (http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/deck/search.aspx?search.x=true&tournament_name=%E6%99%B4%E3%82%8C%E3%82%8B%E5%B1%8B%E3%83%AC%E3%82%AC%E3%82%B7%E3%83%BC%E6%9D%AF+-+2017%2f05%2f14&format=Legacy)
Sneak & Show, ANT, Death & Taxes, ANT, Esperblade, Dredge, Reanimator Depths, Dredge

Following TCDecks/The Source's system, decks get 1 point for each round of the tournament, plus 1 point for each top 8 match won
1925 total points
59 different placing archetypes in 6+ round tournaments from April 24 to now
DTB ≥ 88.55 points
Post-Top DTBs so far: Grixis Tempo, ANT, Sneak & Show, Death & Taxes, Infect, U/R Delver

Grixis Tempo: 201
ANT: 125
Sneak & Show: 115
Death & Taxes: 93
Infect: 90
U/R Delver: 89
OmniTell: 82
Elves: 75
Team America: 70
Bant Deathblade: 68
Eldrazi: 66
B/R Reanimator: 56
Grixis Control: 47
Esperblade: 44
41 Points: Burn, Lands
UWR Stoneblade: 38 (moved UWR Control's 9 points here. It was basically UWR Stoneblade with MD Blood Moon)
Czech Pile: 37
Aluren: 36
Food Chain: 31
Jund: 31
Dredge: 27
Aggro Loam: 26
U/B Reanimator: 22
20 Points: Dragon Stompy, Eldrazi & Taxes
19 Points: Maverick, Merfolk, Nic Fit, U/R Control
16 Points: Esper Delver, Tin Fins
15 Points: BUG Leovold, Reanimator Depths, UWR Delver
Shardless BUG: 14
4c Delver: 10
9 Points: Canadian Thresh, Imperial Painter, Mono-Red Sneak Attack, Slivers, Tezzeret Control, UWR Landstill
8 Points: Junk, U/R Standstill
7 Points: Dark Depths, Pox, Splinter Twin
6 Points: 12-Post, Belcher, Big Eldrazi, BUG unclassified, BWG unclassified, Devoted Maverick Combo, Doomsday, Esper Deathblade, Oops, All Spells, TES, U/W Blade Control

[Crimhead]

Post-Top DTBs so far: Grixis Tempo, ANT, Sneak & Show, Death & Taxes, Infect, U/R Delver


2 combo decks, 3 tempo decks, and 1 aggro/prison deck. Next 3 decks down the list are also tempo and combo.

I'm aware the meta is not at all stable and we shouldn't read too much into it. Nonetheless - yuch!

[DracoOccisor]

2 combo decks, 3 tempo decks, and 1 aggro/prison deck. Next 3 decks down the list are also tempo and combo.

I'm aware the meta is not at all stable and we shouldn't read too much into it. Nonetheless - yuch!

I agree with you completely.

I'm desperate for some sort of hard control list to still be viable, but all my testing is leading to a lot of losing. I'm starting to think CounterTop was a necessary evil for Legacy to remain "balanced".

[Ronald Deuce]

I, for one, would be really happy to see a non-control, non-combo aggro deck rise in the new metagame. I feel like it's time for aggro to get some time in the sun, and I hate white cards.

Anybody playing Burn tested Harsh Mentor? Preliminary impression is that it feels good, man.

EDIT: DracoOccisor, how is it more unbalanced now that there isn't a single best deck? I'm not trying to be snide; I just don't understand why people think it's worse to have a number of combo decks and aggro-control decks vie for the top slot than it is to have a "gatekeeper" that loses to that one deck in twenty that has a favorable matchup.

[Fox]

But no, Miracles didn't push blade decks out of the format. :]

It actually did. Both (blue) Blade decks and Standstill were strictly worse in that you didn't just win games because you could go T1 Top, T2 CB (and that 1, 2 I win combo was just as effective later in a game). There's a very real difference between having to draw and pace out the right answers and tapping a land or artifact to completely invalidate any advantage a new turn gave an opponent - for a lot of decks you may as well have been staring down Volt. Key + Time Vault.

"The Deck" control types that weren't miracles didn't have a degenerate combo themselves and they didn't have good ways to beat that CB/SDT combo while trying to play the same style of draw-go magic. These non-miracles decks have always been good enough to compete versus the field...where they'll never have to face miracles; you do have that part correct.

[Crimhead]

EDIT: DracoOccisor, how is it more unbalanced now that there isn't a single best deck? I'm not trying to be snide; I just don't understand why people think it's worse to have a number of combo decks and aggro-control decks vie for the top slot than it is to have a "gatekeeper" that loses to that one deck in twenty that has a favorable matchup.

Miracles was the best deck, but we generally had a better variety of play-styles. Hard control took 10-20% of the meta, and the other 80-90% was a mix of tempo, midrange, and combo, with prison (Lands) occasionally making a splash.

Our current stats show the best decks to be almost entirely combo and tempo.

A format where every non-combo deck is aggro-control is not very diverse. Some people are fine with this, but some of us were hoping that a new hard control deck might emerge and/or linear aggro decks might shine again. Not only is this not happening so far, but on top of that the format's other control deck (Lands) seems to be in a lull.

Again, the new meta is still in its infancy. But preliminary reports are not very encouraging.

[Fox]

Miracles was the best deck, but we generally had a better variety of play-styles. Hard control took 10-20% of the meta, and the other 80-90% was a mix of tempo, midrange, and combo, with prison (Lands) occasionally making a splash.

Our current stats show the best decks to be almost entirely combo and tempo.

A format where every non-combo deck is aggro-control is not very diverse. Some people are fine with this, but some of us were hoping that a new hard control deck might emerge and/or linear aggro decks might shine again. Not only is this not happening so far, but on top of that the format's other control deck (Lands) seems to be in a lull.

Again, the new meta is still in its infancy. But preliminary reports are not very encouraging.

Eh, give it some time. Git Probe is dictating the meta (Grixis Pyro, SnT, ANT) and then you have Elves running around saying "your fair deck isn't good enough, lower your floor." You may not like this next part, but this is where UB Reanimator should really start to exert its positive influence on the meta and weed out the really offensive linear stuff. Eventually we should see combo-control (UB Reanimator and SnT) start especially destroying B/R Reanimator's meta share moreso because of the environment they foster rather than their head-to-head matchup vs B/R.

Now you can also assess the meta from different points, and it would be totally fair to say the meta looks like x because of Grixis good stuff vs Chalice/Turbomoon. There's also plenty of decks doing just fine like Turbo [Depths], Food Chain, and Infect...but I think you'd be harder pressed to prove these decks really warped the meta around them. Then you have your commonplace assassins doing just fine, the tempo stuff which you've referenced (I'd include counterburn aka U/R Delver prime among that group).

From my viewpoint in legacy, we'll have combo-control lay down the law, then you'll have ANT & Elves browbeat people into making good decks, and the Delver stuff is just gonna be there doin' its thing. At this point it should be more clear to DnT, Lands, Blade, and perhaps even Standstill what it is exactly that they should be doing.

edit: I will say that Sanctum Prelate isn't doing anyone any favors in the control department; that internal strife of DnT x=2 Prelate vs Lands doesn't help either of you. Now you get more of this RUG Lands durdle nonsense with EE + recursion which really cripples Lands ability to exert its influence upon the meta.

[mistercakes]

Miracles was the best deck, but we generally had a better variety of play-styles. Hard control took 10-20% of the meta, and the other 80-90% was a mix of tempo, midrange, and combo, with prison (Lands) occasionally making a splash.

Our current stats show the best decks to be almost entirely combo and tempo.

A format where every non-combo deck is aggro-control is not very diverse. Some people are fine with this, but some of us were hoping that a new hard control deck might emerge and/or linear aggro decks might shine again. Not only is this not happening so far, but on top of that the format's other control deck (Lands) seems to be in a lull.

Again, the new meta is still in its infancy. But preliminary reports are not very encouraging.


What about these predict miracles list showing up? I'm sure as soon as people hop on board with these lists that people will either find a weakness or it will prove to be a strong control deck.

[Crimhead]

What about these predict miracles list showing up? I'm sure as soon as people hop on board with these lists that people will either find a weakness or it will prove to be a strong control deck.

Actually I just saw that list (since my last post). Hopefully it will have some staying power.

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2017-05-19

@Fox,

Absolutely I will give it time!

However, I do not think the Reanimator or S&T are combo/control. The commander ntrol elements are sparse and primarily there to protect the combo.

Combo control would be something like RGCL or Spiral Tide. Decks that are dedicated to defense and stalling the opponent before trying to "go off".

[Tormod]

The last 3 weeks is the first time we have had an unsolved legacy meta in 5 years.

Get used to it.

Enjoying this dynamic shifting meta.

[Crimhead]

The last 3 weeks is the first time we have had an unsolved legacy meta in 5 years.

Get used to it.

Enjoying this dynamic shifting meta.
Having a best deck =/= a solved meta.

I am enjoying the dynamic meta very much - but I'll enjoy it a lot more if and when hard control starts putting numbers! I'd like to see some aggro too.

[Ronald Deuce]

Miracles was the best deck, but we generally had a better variety of play-styles. Hard control took 10-20% of the meta, and the other 80-90% was a mix of tempo, midrange, and combo, with prison (Lands) occasionally making a splash.

Our current stats show the best decks to be almost entirely combo and tempo.

A format where every non-combo deck is aggro-control is not very diverse. Some people are fine with this, but some of us were hoping that a new hard control deck might emerge and/or linear aggro decks might shine again. Not only is this not happening so far, but on top of that the format's other control deck (Lands) seems to be in a lull.

Again, the new meta is still in its infancy. But preliminary reports are not very encouraging.

I'm genuinely curious as to what the stats on top-8s by the new crop of T1s would have been a month or two ago if Miracles's share of the meta were removed from the total. In other words, if, say, 15% of the meta before the ban were Miracles, if one were to excise the deck from the total (leaving us with a total comprising 85% of the actual total), what would the resultant percentages look like for the other decks?

I know what you're saying about how the field doesn't look great at this stage; I just think that with Miracles gone, simply comparing pre- and post-ban top-8 percentages might not be telling the whole story.

I'm totally prepared to be proven to have no idea what I'm talking about, too.

[Crimhead]

In other words, if, say, 15% of the meta before the ban were Miracles, if one were to excise the deck from the total (leaving us with a total comprising 85% of the actual total), what would the resultant percentages look like for the other decks?

That's an easy conversion, if I understand you correctly (eg, a deck with an 8.5% total share had a 10% share of the non-miracles decks). Those would be the decks that did well in a Miracles meta though, not sure what value that data would have.

[Fox]

That's an easy conversion, if I understand you correctly (eg, a deck with an 8.5% total share had a 10% share of the non-miracles decks). Those would be the decks that did well in a Miracles meta though, not sure what value that data would have.
Yeah, not many decks are still hobbling themselves with Abrupt Decay (because its not good compared to 1 mana kill spell + SCM). Changes are taking place at the mana base and color inclusion level, and control doesn't get to hide behind 6 basics anymore. I don't think you can make direct comparison anymore.

[jimmythegreek]

Meta talk is so fucking lame, i'll enter a tourney with dredge and hammer-spike your entire fnm. Seriously, spend more time playing your deck that you enjoy than worrying about what potentially could be across from you.

[Richard Arschmann]

Are you really going to dominate with Dredge when you are basically in Deathrite Shaman: The Meta? 4 deathrite 2 surgical is all over the place

[Ronald Deuce]

Crimhead, that scenario's exactly what I was asking. I also think, though, that a lot of the decks that were performing well against Miracles are still performing well, so I think it's worth comparing.

What I'm trying to figure out is how much of the decks' new dominance is just a result of the disappearance of another top-flight contender. It's only been a few weeks, after all, and the consensus for at least some of those decks seems to be that big changes aren't really necessary.

This might all be a fool's errand: excellent Miracles players might have just picked up other decks with which they were familiar and kept rocking tournaments, a lot of people running other decks with Top might have run for higher ground, etc. I just think that at this stage there are more factors than "a predator is gone" for the reason decks that were competing for the top slots before the ban (and haven't changed much since) are getting a larger share of top-8 results.

Fox, you're right that sideboards and manabases are changing. I just wonder how much those changes are really making a difference.

[Brael]

Are you really going to dominate with Dredge when you are basically in Deathrite Shaman: The Meta? 4 deathrite 2 surgical is all over the place

Deathrite doesn't do that much to Dredge, it slows them down a little, but if DRS is your only interaction you're not winning over 50% of the time. 2 Surgical is ok, but also not great. It's enough to filter Dredge out of the top rounds, but not enough to stop them from spiking any smaller tournament.

[jimmythegreek]

Are you really going to dominate with Dredge when you are basically in Deathrite Shaman: The Meta? 4 deathrite 2 surgical is all over the place

Deathrite and surgical aren't nearly enough to convince me to not play dredge. Just sayin, play what you want/know and worry less about the variables is a fine strategy. Magic players have become so convinced by the internet whats safe and not safe to play its fucking pathetic.

[Megadeus]

Deathrite and surgical aren't nearly enough to convince me to not play dredge. Just sayin, play what you want/know and worry less about the variables is a fine strategy. Magic players have become so convinced by the internet whats safe and not safe to play its fucking pathetic.

This is something I can agree with

[Kanti]

What is Street Wraith, the post.

;b

[Noctalor]

Are you really going to dominate with Dredge when you are basically in Deathrite Shaman: The Meta? 4 deathrite 2 surgical is all over the place

This actually helps Dredge immensly, having to prepare for just DRS and Surgical is way easier to having to deal with them and also rip.

Playing 4 firestorm and 4 SW should already be enought.

[mistercakes]

Dredge really only needs to be afraid of leyline, rest in peace, and cage.

Most people don't even take the right card with surgical anyway.

[Parcher]

The current problem for Dredge isn't Deathrite and Surgical being ubiquitous. It's that Miracles is now gone, and no deck has stepped up to take it's place. Grixis is by far the most played deck. But the big plus and minus for Grixis is it has no direct path to victory. So there is no linear way to attack it. So without a best deck that a sideboard can be tuned toward, most players are fleshing theirs out by expanding existing slots. Instead of 2 Pyroblast they run 3. And instead of 2 Surgical, 1 Cage, they've added a second. In the aggregate, this adds to a huge problem. Especially in cantrip decks with multiple ways to find them. Even more so because they are two completely different axis' of hate Dredge needs to prepare for.

[Scott]

One trend (possibly & preliminarily) I'm seeing in recent events, compared to late Top meta and very early Top-less meta, is that Bant Deathblade and Czech Pile, AKA 4-color monstrosities, might be experiencing a drop-off.

[Madmankevinx]

Seeing the top 16 from this weekends SCG Legacy event just made my pants seem tighter for some reason. If this is the type of stuff people will be playing now, I'm in!

[Lava Snacks]

Seeing the top 16 from this weekends SCG Legacy event just made my pants seem tighter for some reason. If this is the type of stuff people will be playing now, I'm in!

So, in the last day we've gotten top 16s of
SCG Louisville with:

Jund Depths
Infect
Food Chain
Grixis Delver
U/B Landstill
Belcher
BUG Delver
Grixis Delver
Maverick
Sneak and Show
Elves
Shardless BUG
Aggro Loam
Sneak and Show
Eldrazi
B/R Reanimator

And the MTGO Legacy Challenge with:

Elves
Dragon Stompy
Infect
Food Chain
Dark Depths
Grixis Delver
BRUG Cascade
Topless Miracles
Czech Pile
ANT
U/R Delver
Death and Taxes
Sneak and Show
Aluren
Death and Taxes
BUG Delver

Gawjus.

I like it better than this so far
http://66.media.tumblr.com/c3777c3f4702f00a3a64a0abd89cd15b/tumblr_o19zyk413p1s9rpajo1_500.gif

[Crimhead]

I must agree that's a fine looking spread! It's promising to see 3 control archetypes that might have what it takes to be strong in the new meta.

Sad to see no aggro still. But Burn will always "under-achieve" (being unpopular among seasoned players). Maybe if there is an uptick in Legacy's popularity we can get some Affinity players migrating from Modern.

[Megadeus]

Also a recent mtgo event had three miracles decks at 5-0

[twndomn]

I must agree that's a fine looking spread! It's promising to see 3 control archetypes that might have what it takes to be strong in the new meta.

Sad to see no aggro still. But Burn will always "under-achieve" (being unpopular among seasoned players). Maybe if there is an uptick in Legacy's popularity we can get some Affinity players migrating from Modern.

Are we on denial, or is this an echo chamber? There's no control, not even close. The 4cc (or that screw-up name czech pile) is nowhere near the classical sense of control, neither is Standstill. Mid-range strategy is called mid-range at best, don't try to sneak the word control into it.

The result can be interpreted as in flux. It's mostly combos vs tempos vs people trying to figure the meta. I expect something similar in the GP.

[Dice_Box]

Standstill is not control? Ok. That's news.

[Big McLargeHuge]

Standstill is not control? Ok. That's news.
What, you didn't realize that? There was never a control deck in MtG's history until Miracles came around in Legacy. Even Brian Weissman, damn him to hell, ran SERRA ANGELS! You don't run dastardly creatures in a control deck!


At least, that's what I've understood from reading over these threads

[CptHaddock]

What, you didn't realize that? There was never a control deck in MtG's history until Miracles came around in Legacy. Even Brian Weissman, damn him to hell, ran SERRA ANGELS! You don't run dastardly creatures in a control deck!


At least, that's what I've understood from reading over these threads

Lets be real here if you're running creatures bigger than a 2/x you're playing an aggro deck. :cool:

[Noctalor]

First italian big event since the banning (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=23299)

Pretty sick metagame over here

[Claymore]

4 color baleful strix aggro

UB creeping factory midrange

^Fixed the nomenclature:


Lands Midrange 1
Ad Nauseam Tendrils 2
Tezzeret Midrange 3
Aluren 4
BUG Midrange 5
Grixis Pyromancer 6
4c Midrange 7
Death and Taxes 8

[Nicklas]

4 color baleful strix aggro

UB creeping factory midrange

^Fixed the nomenclature:

Lands Midrange 1
Ad Nauseam Tendrils 2
Tezzeret Midrange 3
Aluren 4
BUG Midrange 5
Grixis Pyromancer 6
4c Midrange 7
Death and Taxes 8

To be fair: The so-called BUG Control is Shardless BUG. If that's not Midrange, I am losing it right now...

[Ronald Deuce]

Are we on denial, or is this an echo chamber? There's no control, not even close. The 4cc (or that screw-up name czech pile) is nowhere near the classical sense of control, neither is Standstill. Mid-range strategy is called mid-range at best, don't try to sneak the word control into it.

No true Scotsman, etc.

Feels a bit like people are letting semantics overpower their understanding of what decks actually do in actual games of Magic. Why do people feel so attached to the major-archetype labels, anyway?

[CptHaddock]

No true Scotsman, etc.

Feels a bit like people are letting semantics overpower their understanding of what decks actually do in actual games of Magic. Why do people feel so attached to the major-archetype labels, anyway?

You had to be a top mind to use 1 white mana to cast a terminus.

[twndomn]

No true Scotsman, etc.

Feels a bit like people are letting semantics overpower their understanding of what decks actually do in actual games of Magic. Why do people feel so attached to the major-archetype labels, anyway?

That's what the contributors of this thread is all about, troll legacy in its abstract, did you find anything constructive out of this thread?

[Crimhead]

Feels a bit like people are letting semantics overpower their understanding of what decks actually do in actual games of Magic.

I agree with this.

It's a feature of midrange decks that they can just as easily play "control" or "beatdown" as the circumstances dictate. This is why Maverick, Blade, Aggro Loam, and Shardless are considered midrange.

The Landstill, Jund Depths, and Topless Terminus lists we are seeing look like they would have a pretty rough time trying to play "beatdown". To me, that makes the "hard" control - they are dedicated to playing that roll.


Why do people feel so attached to the major-archetype labels, anyway?
Decks that are more dedicated to playing control (or aggro, for that matter) add a uniqueness to the game that we don't see if all the fair decks are aggro/control hybrids such as tempo decks and midrange decks.


That's what the contributors of this thread is all about, troll legacy in its abstract...
This exactly how I perceive those who try to deny a distinction between hard control vs midrange control.

[Noctalor]

Are we arguing that Lands is not a control deck?

[Crimhead]

Are we arguing that Lands is not a control deck?
I would argue R/G Lands is a combo/control deck.
RUG Lands can pull off fast combo wins, but these are unusual enough I would consider it hard control personally (as somebody who plays both versions).

Edit - more to the point, Lands has been invisible in the meta lately. Still seems like a solid choice imo, but they don't add much to diversity if they aren't being played.

[maharis]

Are we arguing that Lands is not a control deck?

Control decks literally only untap, draw a card, pass, then counter your spell*. Lands can't counter a spell, therefore it's not a control deck.

*N.B.: Does not apply to Standstill decks for some reason

[Whitefaces]

Control decks literally only untap, draw a card, pass, then counter your spell*. Lands can't counter a spell, therefore it's not a control deck.

*N.B.: Does not apply to Standstill decks for some reason

Hear hear! :laugh:

[Crimhead]

Is anybody actually arguing that Jund Depths isn't a control deck?

[Kanti]

Control decks play draw,go until t4 where they cast Wrath of God and follow it up with a Serra's Angel. Where the fuck did you people grow up?

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Control decks mill people with nephalia drownyard

Creatures are for nerds and dorks, interaction is for suckers

[Fox]

Control decks mill people with nephalia drownyard
Naw, Drownyard is how you beat a true control deck most reliably. When that's your most reliable wincon, you're up against a true control deck.

[tescrin]

My blade deck is actually a combo/control deck. I combo'd Moorland Haunt with playing creatures so I can use it's activated ability (COMBO!), or counter spells with the open mana (Control.) Opponent's never see it coming and all the sudden they're gettin' beaten down by a 1/1 Flyer with Flash.

Flash in a 1/1 to chump your Snap? That's true control.
And combo, because I used two cards.

[LOLWut]

True control decks don't play a wincon.

[Whitefaces]

Relic of Progenitus is a great win con if you're playing online.

[twndomn]

This exactly how I perceive those who try to deny a distinction between hard control vs midrange control.

This is an example of a troll making up terminology when as one goes, shifting argument.

I cast Small pox, am I all the sudden a control deck?

I cast Thoughtseize, activate Liliana, am I all the sudden a control deck?

I cast Tangle Wire, Chalice, am I all the sudden a control deck?

First define/draw the distinction and the definition for:
prison strategy
resource denial

then you get to describe what control, in its purest classical sense, is.

Let's mock other users on this forum on this arbitrary context-shifting concept. That's the motivation of this thread.

[Dice_Box]

When will people stop acting like Miracles was not a prison deck? Control this, control that, when your game plan is to lock someone out of casting a spell for the whole game, your a prison deck at your heart.

Still unsure how Standstill is not control though.

[Zombie]

When I personally think of what a control deck looks like, it looks more like this:

4 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Gurmag Angler

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Force of Will

2 Kolaghan's Command
3 Fatal Push
3 Lightning Bolt

4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Badlands
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Misty Rainforest

3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island

1 Island
1 Swamp

than it does "cast spell 1, cast spell 2, game turned into a farce". That pattern is telltale prison deck stuff as far as I'm concerned. Saying that the above list is not a control deck sounds profoundly strange, as well. We're not talking 4xgoyf.dec here, we're talking cantrips that live to block/stall, reuse for removal, CA spells and countermagic, we see countermagic, discard, card selection, intent on grinding people out. How that is not control is beyond me.

(As an aside, go play Pauper. This just 5-0ed. (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/652825#online))

[Crimhead]

When will people stop acting like Miracles was not a prison deck? Control this, control that, when your game plan is to lock someone out of casting a spell for the whole game, your a prison deck at your heart.

Still unsure how Standstill is not control though.
Standstill is with one of the three (recently successful) decks I had identified as control. Of course it's control!

Also, why are even talking about (counter-top) Miracles? I'm more interested in what kind of control decks are going to be prominent now. Too early to say, but it's looking promising. :)

[Tormod]

I gotta agree with dice box and zombie on this one. Top was combo prison. Miracles durdled like so many prison decks looking for its win condition.

[Crimhead]

If we really want to discuss the difference between hard control and aggro control, we need to agree on terms like 'disruption' and 'threat'. Lava Spike is pure threat, where Fog Bank is pure disruption. Most cards have both disruptive and threatening applications, though some are better suited for one or the other.

Snappy is a cool card. In UR Delver it is primarily aggressive, but in Unexpected Miracles it is mostly defensive. In Blade it is more 50/50.

I believe the more your cards can be used as threats, the more aggro the deck. The more your cards are valuable as disruption, the more "control" your deck is. To be considered pure aggro or hard control, you need a pretty heavily skewed deck.

@Zombie, that deck looks like it plays control very nicely and is well suited for it. As you say, it is more on the control plan than 4Goyf control. Also worth noting it is more capable of coming up with a threat than ItsUnfair's Topless Miracles list (http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=15649&d=295615&f=LE).

Snappy and Strix are not particularly efficient threats, but they do have some value as threats. I used to play Enchantress, and while Humility is a great card it is totally possible to lose to 1/1s!

I see control and aggro on a scale. UR Delver is more of an aggro deck than Thresh, but more of a control deck than Zoo. Hard control and linear aggro are on the ends of the spectrum (and naturally there will be borderline cases).

Edit - if the terminology is controversial, it's not really important. I (and others) like to see defensive decks with very few sources to reduce the opponents life total. I don't care what you want to call them, but I am happy they are showing up in the preliminary rounds of the new meta.

[Ronald Deuce]

*Munches Triscuits, cheddar, and hot sauce*

[Scott]

About a month of topless data now in.

Lousville SCG Classic, 147 players, 8 rounds, May 21 (http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/4068_top_16_legacy_classic__decklis.html)
Jund Depths, Infect, Food Chain, U/B Landstill, Grixis Tempo, Belcher, Team America, Grixis Tempo, Maverick, Sneak & Show, Elves, Shardless BUG, Aggro Loam, Sneak & Show, Eldrazi, B/R Reanimator

Saint-Petersburg Legacy Open, 48 players, 6 rounds, May 20 (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15633&f=LE)
Aggro Loam, Team America, Dark Lands, Eldrazi, Grixis Tempo, Grixis Tempo, R/G Lands, Sneak & Show

Pharaoh’s Shop | Novo Hamburgo, 46 players, 6 rounds, May 7 (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=23229)
Sneak & Show, Elves, Team America, Shardless BUG, Infect, Splinter Twin, Grixis Tempo, Wish/Knight Lands

Legacy Lucerne, 37 players, 6 rounds, May 21 (http://blog.gameplace.ch/legacy-mai/)
U/B Tempo, Eldrazi & Taxes, Eldrazi, TES, R/W Death & Taxes, Aggro Loam, UWR Control, UWR Delver

Following TCDecks/The Source's system, decks get 1 point for each round of the tournament, plus 1 point for each top 8 match won
2225 total points
63 different placing archetypes in 6+ round tournaments from April 24 to now
DTB ≥ 4.6% of total, so 102.35 points
Post-Top DTBs so far: Grixis Tempo, Sneak & Show, ANT, Infect

Grixis Tempo: 235
Sneak & Show: 146
ANT: 125
Infect: 106
Death & Taxes: 99
Team America: 93
Elves: 91
U/R Delver: 89
Eldrazi: 88
OmniTell: 82
Bant Deathblade: 68
B/R Reanimator: 64
Lands: 60
Aggro Loam: 49
Grixis Control: 47
Esperblade: 44
Burn: 41
Food Chain: 40
UWR Stoneblade: 38
Czech Pile: 37
Aluren: 36
Jund: 31
Shardless BUG: 29
Eldrazi & Taxes: 28
27 Points: Dredge, Maverick
U/B Reanimator: 22
UWR Delver: 21
Dragon Stompy: 20
19 Points: Merfolk, Nic Fit, U/R Control
16 Points: Esper Delver, Tin Fins
15 Points: BUG Leovold, Reanimator Depths
Belcher: 14
13 Points: Splinter Twin, TES
Jund Depths: 11
4c Delver: 10
9 Points: Canadian Thresh, Imperial Painter, Mono-Red Sneak Attack, Slivers, Tezzeret Control, U/B Landstill, U/B Tempo, UWR Landstill
8 Points: Junk, U/R Standstill
7 Points: Dark Depths, Pox
6 Points: 12-Post, Big Eldrazi, BUG unclassified, BWG unclassified, Devoted Maverick Combo, Doomsday, Esper Deathblade, Oops, All Spells, U/W Blade Control, UWR Control

[Scott]

Where do we stand a week before Grand Prix Vegas?

The new Legacy metagame is moving quickly. Looking at May summaries is incomplete, as you get older results from early May, and miss out on June data. Looking at June data so far is too limited.

So, I present every 6 round+ tournament I could find from May 20th on, sorted newest to oldest. 3 weekends of results, and I'll add anything from this coming weekend.

Following TCDecks/The Source's system, decks get 1 point for each round of the tournament, plus 1 point for each top 8 match won.
DTB cutoff would be 69.644 out of 1,514 total points, with Grixis Tempo, Death & Taxes, Elves, and Lands making the provisional cut.

June 4th, Hareruya Challenge, 298 players, 9 rounds (http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/deck/search.aspx?search.x=true&tournament_name=%E7%AC%AC9%E6%9C%9F%E3%83%AC%E3%82%AC%E3%82%B7%E3%83%BC%E7%A5%9E%E6%8C%91%E6%88%A6%E8%80%85%E6%B1%BA%E5%AE%9A%E6%88%A6+-+Top8&format=Legacy)
Sneak & Show, R/G Lands, Dragon Stompy, Esper Delver, U/R Delver, Grixis Tempo, Jund, Grixis Tempo, U/W EldraziBlade, Sneak & Show, Elves, Grixis Tempo, Miracles, Death & Taxes, Infect, Tin Fins

June 4th, Quest for Power, 7 rounds (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzG7DtMxZY0)
4c Cascade, Maverick, Esper Deathblade, Team America, Team America, Dragon Stompy, Aggro Loam, Grixis Tempo

June 4th, GP Manila Side Event, 45 players, 6 rounds (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15784&f=LE)
B/R Reanimator, Miracles, ANT, Death & Taxes, U/W Blade Control, Eldrazi, Imperial Painter, Shardless BUG

June 4th, Fire & Dice, 43 players, 6 rounds (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15787&f=LE)
Dragon Stompy, Grixis Tempo, Burn, Team America, Bant Deathblade, Grixis Tempo, Grixis Tempo, Maverick

June 3rd, Ovino Main Event, 108 players, 7 rounds (http://www.ovinotournament.com/legacy-main-event/)
ANT, Grixis Tempo, Elves, Grixis Tempo, Death & Taxes, Grixis Control, Dragon Stompy, Dark Depths

June 3rd, レガシー神トライアル, 91 players, 7 rounds (http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/deck/search.aspx?search.x=true&tournament_name=%E3%83%AC%E3%82%AC%E3%82%B7%E3%83%BC%E7%A5%9E%E3%83%88%E3%83%A9%E3%82%A4%E3%82%A2%E3%83%AB+-+2017%2f06%2f03&format=Legacy)
Grixis Control, Infect, OmniTell, Jund, U/R Delver, Infect, 4c uncategorized, Affinity

June 3rd, Ovino Side Event, 61 players, 6 rounds (http://www.ovinotournament.com/legacy-side-event/)
Maverick, Sneak & Show, Team America, Grixis Control, Esperblade, R/G Lands, Infect, ANT

May 29th, Black Gold GPT, 50 players, 6 rounds
Miracles, Czech Pile, Belcher, Death & Taxes, Dark Lands, Bantblade Standstill, Elves, Aggro Loam, Grixis Tempo, Grixis Tempo, Burn

May 28th, GP Kobe Side Event, 108 players, 7 rounds (http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/deck/search.aspx?search.x=true&tournament_name=Grand+Prix+Kobe+2017+-+ENNDAL+GAMES%E5%8D%94%E8%B3%9B+%E6%97%A5%E6%9C%AC%E3%83%AC%E3%82%AC%E3%82%B7%E3%83%BC%E9%81%B8%E6%89%8B%E6%A8%A92017+Spring&format=Legacy)
Elves, Death & Taxes, Shardless BUG, Golins, Bant Deathblade, Jund, Death & Taxes, Death & Taxes

May 28th, ChannelFireball $4K, 98 players, 7 rounds (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15687&f=LE)
ANT, Elves, Lands, Maverick, Bant Deathblade, Elves, Food Chain, Dredge

May 28th, Circuito Legacy Catarinense, 49 players, 6 rounds (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15747&f=LE)
TES, Dark Depths, Burn, Elves, Bant Deathblade, Burn, Manaless Dredge, Sneak & Show

May 28th, 21º Alpha, 42 players, 6 rounds (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=23466)
Grixis Tempo, Esperblade, Eldrazi, Grixis Tempo, Grixis Tempo, UWR Delver, Team America, Jund

May 28th, Belgian Legacy Cup 2017 - Trial I, 33 players, 6 rounds (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15703&f=LE)
U/R Control, Team America, U/R Delver, U/R Delver, Death & Taxes, Eldrazi, TES, BUG uncategorized

May 27th, $1K/Vegas GPT @ MBH Seattle, 72 players, 7 rounds (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15686&f=LE)
R/G Lands, Burn, UWR Stoneblade, ANT, Death & Taxes, Elves, Grixis Tempo, Grixis Tempo

May 27th, 晴れる屋レガシー杯, 45 players, 6 rounds (http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/deck/search.aspx?search.x=true&tournament_name=%E6%99%B4%E3%82%8C%E3%82%8B%E5%B1%8B%E3%83%AC%E3%82%AC%E3%82%B7%E3%83%BC%E6%9D%AF+-+2017%2f05%2f27&format=Legacy)
Grixis Control, ANT, Doomsday, Grixis Tempo, Angel Stompy, Sneak & Show, Grixis Tempo, Grixis Tempo

May 27th, GPT at The Geekery HQ, 36 players, 6 rounds (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15677&f=LE)
Death & Taxes, R/G Lands, Canadian Threshold, ANT, B/R Reanimator, Grixis Tempo, Death & Taxes, B/R Reanimator

May 21st, Louisville SCG Classic, 147 players, 8 rounds (http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/4068_top_16_legacy_classic__decklis.html)
Jund Depths, Infect, Food Chain, U/B Landstill, Grixis Tempo, Belcher, Team America, Grixis Tempo, Maverick, Sneak & Show, Elves, Shardless BUG, Aggro Loam, Sneak & Show, Eldrazi, B/R Reanimator

May 21st, 6º jornada Liga Madrileña de Legacy, 43 players, 6 rounds (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=23416)
Eldrazi, Death & Taxes, Team America, Grixis Tempo, U/W Blade Control, Death & Taxes, Grixis Tempo, Sneak & Show

May 21st, Lucerne MkM Trial, 37 players, 6 rounds (https://mtgdecks.net/Legacy/legacy-trial-mkm-tournament-43795)
U/B Tempo, Eldrazi & Taxes, Eldrazi, TES, R/W Death & Taxes, Aggro Loam, UWR Control, UWR Delver

May 20th, Legacy God Trial, 71 players, 7 rounds (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15658&f=LE)
U/R Delver, Merfolk, Big Eldrazi, UWR Delver, Elves, Grixis Control, U/R Control, U/R Delver

May 20th, Saint-Petersburg Legacy Open, 48 players, 6 rounds (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15633&f=LE)
Aggro Loam, Team America, Dark Lands, Eldrazi, Grixis Tempo, Grixis Tempo, R/G Lands, Sneak & Show

May 20th, Known Magicians Clan - 78th, 39 players, 6 rounds (http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/deck/search.aspx?search.x=true&tournament_name=Known+Magicians+Clan+-+78th&format=Legacy)
Mono B Reanimator, Eldrazi, U/R Delver, Pox, Blue Zoo, MUD, Tin Fins, Dragon Stompy, R/G Lands

May 20th, $1K @ Top Deck Games, 6 rounds (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31726-June-10th-Legacy-1K-Tournament-Top-Deck-Games-Haddon-Township-NJ&p=1010866&viewfull=1#post1010866)
UWR Control, Dredge, Eldrazi & Taxes, U/B Reanimator, Maverick, ANT, R/G Lands, U/R Delver

Grixis Tempo: 186
Death & Taxes: 100
Elves: 78
Lands: 74
Sneak & Show: 67
Team America: 66
ANT: 62
U/R Delver: 60
Eldrazi: 55
Maverick: 46
Infect: 41
Grixis Control: 40
Dragon Stompy: 39
Aggro Loam: 36
Burn: 35
Jund: 30
B/R Reanimator: 29
Bant Deathblade: 26
Miracles: 26
Shardless BUG: 22
TES: 22
UWR Delver: 20
16: Food Chain, U/R Control
15: Belcher, Dark Depths, Dredge, Eldrazi & Taxes, Tin Fins
14: Esperblade, UWR Control
U/W Blade Control: 12
Jund Depths: 11
Esper Delver: 10
9: 4c Cascade, Merfolk, Mono B Reanimator, U/B Landstill, U/B Tempo, U/W EldraziBlade
8: Big Eldrazi, Czech Pile, Esper Deathblade, Goblins, OmniTell, UWR Stoneblade
7: 4c uncategorized, Affinity, Canadian Threshold, Doomsday, Pox, U/B Reanimator
6: Angel Stompy, Bantblade Standstill, Blue Zoo, BUG uncategorized, Imperial Painter, Manaless Dredge, MUD

[Scott]

Final update before tomorrow's Grand Prix, adding to the previous post.

Three new 6 round+ tournaments added, which bookend the results we have for the four weekends immediately before the GP, starting on May 20th.

Following TCDecks/The Source's system, decks get 1 point for each round of the tournament, plus 1 point for each top 8 match won.
DTB cutoff would be 80.546 out of 1,751 total points, with Grixis Tempo, Death & Taxes, Elves, U/R Delver, and Lands making the cut.

June 11th, Knight Ware Eternal Weekend Trial, 74 players, 7 rounds (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31708-Los-Angeles-CA-Knight-Ware-Sunday-6-11-2017-20-25-Volc-Trop-EW-Trial&p=1012247&viewfull=1#post1012247)
Elves, Dredge, Sneak & Show, Death & Taxes, Grixis Tempo, Death & Taxes, Dragon Stompy, Grixis Tempo, Death & Taxes, Infect, 12-Post, Lands, B/R Reanimator, Grixis Tempo, Aggro Loam, Death & Taxes

June 10th, 晴れる屋レガシー杯, 57 players, 6 rounds (http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/deck/search.aspx?search.x=true&tournament_name=%E6%99%B4%E3%82%8C%E3%82%8B%E5%B1%8B%E3%83%AC%E3%82%AC%E3%82%B7%E3%83%BC%E6%9D%AF+-+2017%2f06%2f10&format=Legacy)
U/R Delver, OmniTell, Death & Taxes, Esperblade, U/R Delver, Dragon Stompy, Death & Taxes, Miracles

Liga Argentina de Legacy (1st Semester), May 27th, 78 players, 7 rounds (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=23572)
U/B Reanimator, Esper Deathblade, Death & Taxes, U/W Control, BUG uncategorized, U/R Delver, Esperblade, B/R Reanimator

Grixis Tempo: 207
Death & Taxes: 150
Elves: 88
U/R Delver: 82
Lands: 81
Sneak & Show: 75
Team America: 66
ANT: 62
Eldrazi: 55
Dragon Stompy: 52
Infect: 48
Maverick: 46
Aggro Loam: 43
B/R Reanimator: 43
Grixis Control: 40
Burn: 35
Miracles: 32
Jund: 30
Esperblade: 28
Bant Deathblade: 26
Dredge: 24
22: Shardless BUG, TES
UWR Delver: 20
17: Esper Deathblade, U/B Reanimator
16: Food Chain, OmniTell, U/R Control
15: Belcher, Eldrazi & Taxes, Dark Depths, Tin Fins
UWR Control: 14
BUG uncategorized: 13
U/W Blade Control: 12
Jund Depths: 11
Esper Delver: 10
9: Merfolk, 4c Cascade, Mono B Reanimator, U/B Landstill, U/B Tempo, U/W EldraziBlade
8: Big Eldrazi, Goblins, UWR Stoneblade, Czech Pile, U/W Control
7: 12-Post, Canadian Threshold, Doomsday, Pox, Affinity, 4c uncategorized
6: Angel Stompy, Manaless Dredge, Imperial Painter, MUD, Blue Zoo, Bantblade Standstill