The new Legacy metagame

[Hanni]

This thread is for speculating about the new Legacy metagame following the April 24, 2017 banning of Sensei’s Divining Top.

I'll get it started off. I think many people will try playing their pet decks that were less or non viable in a Miracles meta, such as Maverick.

I also believe Elves is going to become a DTB again; every deck is going to need a plan for beating Elves.

[Crimhead]

This thread is for speculating about the new Legacy metagame following the April 24, 2017 banning of Sensei’s Divining Top.

I'll get it started off. I think many people will try playing their pet decks that were less or non viable in a Miracles meta, such as Maverick.

I also believe Elves is going to become a DTB again; every deck is going to need a plan for beating Elves.

Elves and all those speculative fair decks will be good fodder for Lands.

D&T maybe switches more to Imperial Taxes?

[Barachai]

Affinity has a reason to exist again; it is ready and able to shit all over fair decks, and can run chalice. Not sure if better than eldrazi of course :tongue:

[supremePINEAPPLE]

I wouldn't be surprised if a UWx mentor or stoneblade list got popular in the wake of miracles departure. Card availability is a real thing for legacy so the people that don't ragequit or swap decks have to go somewhere.

[Crimhead]

Affinity has a reason to exist again; it is ready and able to shit all over fair decks, and can run chalice. Not sure if better than eldrazi of course :tongue:
Dude - I wish!

[T-101]

Obviously there are huge ripple effects from Top that we won't fully understand for some time.

I'm sleeving up Maverick again. I think Storm will probably pick up, and like you mentioned, Elves. With that in mind, I'll probably hedge on more Zealous Persecutions, Null Rods, maybe an Engineered Plague, and some extra discard.

[jrw1985]

It'll be interesting.... I don't know how it will pan out. I want to say there will be more midrange-control, but that's already the direction the format was heading in with Miracles. I don't think there is another pure-control deck that will fill the void.

The collateral damage is difficult to account for as well. There are decks that are affected aside from Miracles. Painter, Nic Fit, fucking ANT.... They're all losing a valuable tool, but the end of Miracles is a much bigger format change overall.

[Julian23]

Some kind of Stoneblade becomes a deck again. Lots of other decks people were previously embarassed for holding on to become viable tier2 strategies again.

[CutthroatCasual]

There will be little reason not to play BGxx or BUGx decks now. They performed decently against Miracles as well as the rest of the metagame, and they're not going to lose to any of the jank that will come out because of the Miracles ban.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

There will be little reason not to play BGxx or BUGx decks now. They performed decently against Miracles as well as the rest of the metagame, and they're not going to lose to any of the jank that will come out because of the Miracles ban.Says who? Stoneblade and mentor decks could totally be built to compete with pile, especially if they don't have to worry about terminus.

[CptHaddock]

Says who? Stoneblade and mentor decks could totally be built to compete with pile, especially if they don't have to worry about terminus.

Modern players who started playing legacy because of how wotc handles modern.

I think everyone has gathered that UBx is going to be the premier archetype. I think the most interesting thing about this change is that you are less forced to run decay now that counterbalance is no longer a real card. Obviously the decks that get hit the most are decks that are running top or ones that prey on miracles. SFM is a card again in decks that aren't d&t.

[Julian23]

Even more reason to watch the Legacy Premier League (http://itsjulian.com/) this season. We're having players resubmit new decklists!

[kungfugeek]

Even more reason to watch the Legacy Premier League (http://itsjulian.com/) this season. We're having players resubmit new decklists!

Whoa, will week one standings remain?

[Fjaulnir]

Even more reason to watch the Legacy Premier League (http://itsjulian.com/) this season. We're having players resubmit new decklists!

I was expecting the League to continue under the old rules/banlist, but in this light it seems indeed exciting to see what decks these guys will brew up!

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Modern players who started playing legacy because of how wotc handles modern.People keep talking so much shit about how bad modern is but it's honestly the best it's been in years and was more fun for me to play than workshop vs mentor vintage. People just get so pissy about bans that they can't think straight. I'm confident that legacy will be more fun going forward even if it's sad that miracles got hit.

[NeckBird]

BUGx decks (Food Chain, Shardless, 4C Control, Noble Duke), Deathblade decks (Bant, Esper), combo decks (Elves, Show & Tell, Reanimator), and Delver decks (Grixis, 4C, BUG) will be most popular at first.

Price of Progress decks (UR Delver, Burn) are absolutely absurd too and may take a month or so to catch on, but I could see UR Delver being a top deck in the format especially if people start shaving an Abrupt Decay or two without Counterbalance being an issue.

BWx Stoneblade decks, maybe even Punishing Jund, might start getting played again just because Deathrite -> Hymn -> Liliana is actually quite good in this format, but they won't be Tier One by any means, just more viable strategies.

Then, people will realize that Deathrite Shaman is far more miserable of a card than Sensei's Top ever was and he'll be banned and we'll be having this same discussion again six months from now.

[KobeBryan]

BUGx decks (Food Chain, Shardless, 4C Control, Noble Duke), Deathblade decks (Bant, Esper), combo decks (Elves, Show & Tell, Reanimator), and Delver decks (Grixis, 4C, BUG) will be most popular at first.

Price of Progress decks (UR Delver, Burn) are absolutely absurd too and may take a month or so to catch on, but I could see UR Delver being a top deck in the format especially if people start shaving an Abrupt Decay or two without Counterbalance being an issue.

BWx Stoneblade decks, maybe even Punishing Jund, might start getting played again just because Deathrite -> Hymn -> Liliana is actually quite good in this format, but they won't be Tier One by any means, just more viable strategies.

Then, people will realize that Deathrite Shaman is far more miserable of a card than Sensei's Top ever was and he'll be banned and we'll be having this same discussion again six months from now.

There are many answers to drs. Cb and top on the other hand have like 4 things to answer it

[NeckBird]

There are many answers to drs. Cb and top on the other hand have like 4 things to answer it

I do agree with this, but one of those answers is playing Deathrite Shaman before your opponent. At a certain point people are going to come to the conclusion that the best way to beat Deathrite Shaman is just playing your own (assuming your playing a fair deck).

[Cire]

At first:

Less Miracles means less Moat which means more Eldrazi. Also no Counter-Top means less reason to be forced to run Decay so less BUGx lists. No more Terminus means more Aggro.

Later:

DRS and Decay are still fantastic so BUGx lists will return. But I think Eldrazi and Aggro will also remain strong.

[Crimhead]

I'm sleeving up Maverick again.
Here is the problem I see:


Maverick was pushed out by Jund having a similar game but being generally better.
Jund was pushed out by TNN Blade decks - about to explode again.
Shardless is still a better version of Jund - especially against TNN or combo (counters).
Aggro Loam is still a better KotR midrange deck on account of CotV against combo and cantrip decks.

I don't think Miracles has been what's holding Maverick down.

I'm no expert though (and I don't personally play midrange). I could very well be wrong. Also this is Legacy, where a tier two deck isn't that much worse than a tier one deck (the death of Miracles probably narrows this gap further). Best of luck!

[Lemnear]

4 DRS
3-4 SCM
4 TNN
4 Thoughtseize
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Wasteland
2 Leovold
3-4 Fatal Push or Abrupt Decay

The next tier 1 deck imo.

[Claymore]

I think the DRS and CB comparison is a good one. There's only like Abrupt Decay, Krosan Grip, and Engineered Explosives for cards that can cleanly and reliably answer CB, otherwise you're completely locked out of the game. DRS is a 1/2 elf.

I think the existing decks (BUG, Eldrazi, ANT, SNT) will grow in the meta share. Newly enabled decks like Maverick and BUG Delver can come out of the woodwork, with other fast combo like Turbo Depths emerging soon.

A few Ux control decks will come out to take Miracle's control share, along with reinvigorated aggro (if any...Zoo?), but I think that will take some time to develop and mature. Until then, fast combo and midrange.

[CptHaddock]

Regardless of what happens it should be interesting. I guess this means that GP Vegas is going to be our version of the pro tour huh?

[Hanni]

I think we'll see a shift away from the slower midrange decks that have been getting popular lately. In the interim, I think we'll see aggressive decks like Burn, UR Delver, and Ru Sligh punishing these 3-4 color durdly midrange decks.

I see Stoneblade getting more popular again, as well as Elves. I don't think decks like Zoo are coming back... those decks were pushed out by other archetypes, way before Miracles started dominating.

I think we'll settle back into a Delver infested meta long-term, with some midrange value decks that are good against Delver, and various Combo that punishes the midrange decks.

[Ellomdian]

Modern players who started playing legacy because of how wotc handles modern.

I think everyone has gathered that UBx is going to be the premier archetype. I think the most interesting thing about this change is that you are less forced to run decay now that counterbalance is no longer a real card. Obviously the decks that get hit the most are decks that are running top or ones that prey on miracles. SFM is a card again in decks that aren't d&t.

As a Tezz player, I for one am a HUGE FAN of fewer Maindeck Decays!


People keep talking so much shit about how bad modern is but it's honestly the best it's been in years and was more fun for me to play than workshop vs mentor vintage. People just get so pissy about bans that they can't think straight. I'm confident that legacy will be more fun going forward even if it's sad that miracles got hit.

People talk 'shit' about Modern because until today it was the format where you could spend hundreds/thousands of dollars on cards to play a deck only to have it disappear overnight because, reasons. WotC has clearly spent years trying to force it to follow the NWO philosophy and has wielded bans accordingly. If you are doing something they don't like and it gets popular, you are screwed. Forget allowing players to adapt strategies, forget stuff like getting Judges to actually act on Slow Play, just ban it and move on. Because new players might get their fee-fees hurt if they don't have fun watching other people play.


At first:

Less Miracles means less Moat which means more Eldrazi. Also no Counter-Top means less reason to be forced to run Decay so less BUGx lists. No more Terminus means more Aggro.

Later:

DRS and Decay are still fantastic so BUGx lists will return. But I think Eldrazi and Aggro will also remain strong.

I don't think you will see fewer midrange BUG-ish lists just because Decay isn't vital now - how often were they siding it out against non-Miracles lists? I think more people will force aggro because the Kird Ape Brigade are stubborn, but they are going to get DESTROYED by Combo.


I don't think Miracles has been what's holding Maverick down.

Maverick, or multiple dedicated Aggo archetypes, or bad creatures in general. People seem to forget or just choose to ignore that what killed Maverick/Zoo was that Delver was a strictly better aggro creature in a color that allowed you to run Brainstorms. Being able to Spell Pierce in your Legacy Aggro deck >>> running random idiots.


...I see Stoneblade getting more popular again, as well as Elves. I don't think decks like Zoo are coming back... those decks were pushed out by other archetypes, way before Miracles started dominating.

I think we'll settle back into a Delver infested meta long-term, with some midrange value decks that are good against Delver, and various Combo that punishes the midrange decks.

Yup. Miracles players (those that don't straight-up ragequit) will slot into Stoneblade much easier than some kind of Standstill nonsense. And Delver, Delver, DELVER.

[drinkard]

People talk 'shit' about Modern because until today it was the format where you could spend hundreds/thousands of dollars on cards to play a deck only to have it disappear overnight because, reasons. WotC has clearly spent years trying to force it to follow the NWO philosophy and has wielded bans accordingly. If you are doing something they don't like and it gets popular, you are screwed. Forget allowing players to adapt strategies, forget stuff like getting Judges to actually act on Slow Play, just ban it and move on. Because new players might get their fee-fees hurt if they don't have fun watching other people play

The two bans that Modern had most recently belong to two of the currently most played decks: Dredge and Death's Shadow. Infect took a beating, yes, but that is more because of the presence of Death's Shadow than the absence of Gitaxian Probe.

Also I'm jumping into this thread to say: I'm starting to play Legacy because of this change. This could be good or bad news, but in my anecdotal experience, I think that Legacy veterans have blinders on that keep them from seeing how many people weren't interested in their format because of CounterTop and Terminus.

[Chatto]

BUG-colors, Delver, various Combo, and Blood Moon. Something like that...

[supremePINEAPPLE]

People talk 'shit' about Modern because until today it was the format where you could spend hundreds/thousands of dollars on cards to play a deck only to have it disappear overnight because, reasons.Every single time this has happened the majority of the value of the deck is there even after the bans. Individual cards lose some value but the overall deck is going to be worth basically the same as it was before. Just like every modern deck that's been banned.


WotC has clearly spent years trying to force it to follow the NWO philosophy and has wielded bans accordingly.You don't know what NWO is.


If you are doing something they don't like and it gets popular, you are screwed. Forget allowing players to adapt strategies, forget stuff like getting Judges to actually act on Slow Play, just ban it and move on. Because new players might get their fee-fees hurt if they don't have fun watching other people play.I think judges definitely dropped the ball for years when it came to top bullshit but at the end of the day miracles determined the successful decks while being a drag on everything having to do with format. Complaining about fee-fees in this kind of rant is an especially hilarious lack of self awareness.

[maraxusofkelds]

At first:

Less Miracles means less Moat which means more Eldrazi. Also no Counter-Top means less reason to be forced to run Decay so less BUGx lists. No more Terminus means more Aggro.

Later:

DRS and Decay are still fantastic so BUGx lists will return. But I think Eldrazi and Aggro will also remain strong.

I disagree with this. If TNN returns en force, then eldrazi is gonna have a huge issue. Plus eldrazi lost one of its most favorable matchups. I think red stompy is well positioned however. It still runs chalice but has access to t1 blood moon or magus, which is gonna wreck house against all the delver/bug/bantblade decks that rely on greedy mana bases.

[Ellomdian]

You don't know what NWO is.


MaRo's NWO philosophy (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/new-world-order-2011-12-05) is presented under the guise of reducing 'Complexity' of the game and lessening the amount of information that a player is expected to keep track of at any given time when making decisions. The biggest issue is straight-up quoted in the article:


Comprehension complexity and board complexity are a problem for beginners. Strategic complexity is not. Why? Because beginners can't see strategic complexity. It requires a certain amount of game knowledge before it's visible.

WotC redistributed whatever complexity budget they allowed for a given cardspace based on the presentation to beginners. When WotC started designing expansion sets with an eye towards new-player acquisition instead of the old methodology of having separate product for introduction and for experienced play, they hamstrung themselves by worrying how new players would respond to cards at certain rarities instead of what the value of the design of the set was as a whole. Players who can just buy the cards they want to play and who aren't reliant on getting them out of the 2-3 packs a week that WotC is catering retail product to now have become 2nd class citizens because they aren't customers anymore, they are advertising for the game.


R&D set out to solve an acquisition problem and ended up with a way to refresh the essence of the game.

From the people who brought you Mythic rarity comes game design by market research. Resource denial (Land D) and Draw-go control are 'unfun' for players who don't understand that level of complexity in game design, regardless of how effective they are within the context of actual gameplay.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Where you see a shadowy cabal bent on taking the fun out of magic I see a limited design principle that makes commons less complex and has zero effect on legacy B&R announcements. You can scapegoat Maro all you want but you are reaching when blaming NWO for the top ban. Like that article mentioned at every possible chance, NWO is about set design, not B&R methodology which we know very little concrete about.

[Cire]

Are Counterbalance and Terminus left for dead in the wake of the top ban or could they still be playable with other cards?

For example Mirri's Guile? While it doesn't function like top (either in terms of instantly rearranging to counter, or instantly drawing your wrath) it can set up some roadblocks for people to play around a counterbalance and still ensure that your wraths are only 1 mana. If you don't want to play green, perhaps Soothsaying? It is not as mana efficient and also can't draw a card, but it does pitch to FOW.

AKA, while some are celebrating the death of Miracles, and while others are mourning its demise, is their a hope or fear for miracles to be reconstructed - weaker, perhaps much much weaker - but still alive? Or at least some of it's famous interactions like the cheap wrath and angels or counter-top(lite).

[Hanni]

The Miracles could see play in a fringe tier 2 or worse Scroll Rack / Land Tax type of Wx control deck, but Counterbalance is pretty much worthless now.

[PirateKing]

Scroll Rack can set your library in order, even with cards from hand. Can't draw a card itself, but since it doesn't actually draw cards, you can use it on your opponent's turn and then draw a miracle with some other effect. Fun to use alongside Land Tax to dig 8+ cards at a time. I wouldn't consider it with Counterbalance though.

[lavafrogg]

UW control will exist in some form or another, be it stoneblade/landstill/new miracles, and the cards will be tested in whatever new shell emerges.

Is counterbalance good when it is not a variable Chalice of the Void? Probably not, but it was never meant to completely lock down a format.

Will terminus be played when it isn't always 1 mana and at instant speed? Probably not, but it was supposed to be a big deal when a miracle happened, not an every time occurance. I have more hope for terminus, as brainstorm is still super strong and wraths fir 1 are good no matter when you play them. You will just be a little safer on your own turn.

[maharis]

4 Brainstorm and X Jace... seems like Terminus is a perfectly fine two-of in control decks. You still have swords-snap-swords and other removal/wraths.

Unban Drain and Terminus gets a lot better.

[Richard Cheese]

IMO Terminus is still worth running, although possibly not as a full set. Guarantee it will still see play in control decks, because it the effect is just so much more powerful than any other sweeper. Those decks will still have access to Brainstorm/Jace/Ponder, and Scroll Rack, like others are mentioning.

[CutthroatCasual]

BUG-colors, Delver, various Combo, and Blood Moon. Something like that...

Basically, the metagame lost 2 or 3 decks, and nothing new will take their place.

[Ellomdian]

Where you see a shadowy cabal bent on taking the fun out of magic I see a limited design principle that makes commons less complex and has zero effect on legacy B&R announcements. You can scapegoat Maro all you want but you are reaching when blaming NWO for the top ban. Like that article mentioned at every possible chance, NWO is about set design, not B&R methodology which we know very little concrete about.

I don't see a 'Shadowy Cabal bent on taking the fun out of Magic.' I see a series of banning with thematically inconsistent justification even within the same Announcement. 'Top has been a problem for years, so we're killing it because we don't want to police slow play in Vegas. Also you'd better stop making Standard boring or we'll ban something else!' Forsythe literally calls out the primary action for BnR consideration being player feedback on his Twitter, but that's not enough to do something about Standard right now? I'm sure it has nothing to do with the absolutely terrible optics that would come from consecutive Standard bannings, because letting something juiced through every once in a while is fine, but acknowledging that they can't seem to control the format like they would prefer to is not.

In the last year, just for Standard, they've acknowledged that their aggressive rotation plan was terrible, they've had to ban multiple cards from different decks, and they are dealing with an upset playerbase calling for bans *AGAIN*. The last time they couldn't control something like this was in 2011 with JTMS and Stoneforge. It's been low-hanging fruit for years to kvetch about the way they manage Modern - when they fuck up Standard this badly, it raises concerns that maybe someone in charge doesn't know what they are doing. If they could kindly keep their mitts off the actual Eternal formats until they can figure out what's going wrong, it would raise less worry.

[twndomn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_VLFZhfrBQ

Legacy 2012, play proactive combos~!

[Crimhead]

You don't know what NWO is.

I assumed he meant "Newb World Order".
Newb World Order is the blanket term for the major shift in design to push midrange and coddle new players. New World Order was only part of this shift.

It's very easy to confuse the two, because New World Order is an integral part of Newb World Order. It was also the only aspect of Newb World Order that WotC has good enough to name and explicitly publicize. But it was part of a bigger movement.

[Barachai]

I assumed he meant "Newb World Order".
Newb World Order is the blanket term for the major shift in design to coddle new players. New World Order was only part of this shift.

It's very easy to confuse the two, because New World Order is an integral part of Newb World Order. It was also the only aspect of Newb World Order that WotC has good enough to name and explicitly publicize. But it was part of a bigger movement.

Remember how early New World Order brought Lightning Bolt, Doom Blade, and Mana Leak into standard? Then Jace happened and teh cuntrolz is two muhc so they came up with a brilliant idea: these spells are too good, make planeswalkers great.

Logic.

[lavafrogg]

Basically, the metagame lost 2 or 3 decks, and nothing new will take their place.

So we can say Miracles is gone, even though UW Snapcaster/Jace will continue to be a thing, what are the other decks?

Do tier 3 pet decks really count as the metagame?

[twndomn]

So we can say Miracles is gone, even though UW Snapcaster/Jace will continue to be a thing, what are the other decks?

Do tier 3 pet decks really count as the metagame?

Cough, Esper Mentor, cough.

[Nouille]

Intresting to see that a lot of people have a lot of ideas about which decks gonna dominate the new metagame with convincing arguments in general.

But let's see the problem another way: according to you, which decks are unfavored by the top ban -and therefore the miracles ban- ? To me, except marginal decks like 12post (which also suffer from top ban by the way), there is not any deck turning into something very bad. So, maybe the high variability of answers to the question of the metagame avolution is linked to the pre-existing deck diversity. Maybe everybody is right, and the lack of miracles will be positive for all decks ?

[CutthroatCasual]

Cough, Esper Mentor, cough.

Wooooweee another midrange deck ResidentSleeper

[Nestalim]

Wait, the metagame is gonna change, except than Miracle is out now ?

Does really people expect to see any new garbage tier 2-3 decks rise and shine ?

Nope. It will just be a break for everyone until DrS ban.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Wait, the metagame is gonna change, except than Miracle is out now ?

Does really people expect to see any new garbage tier 2-3 decks rise and shine ?

Nope. It will just be a break for everyone until DrS ban.Wow you really backed that point up with a lot of evidence and solid reasoning.

[LOLWut]

Wow you really backed that point up with a lot of evidence and solid reasoning.

I saw his Nobel-worthy literary skills, and I felt let down when the substance and argumentation did not equal the heights of the writing.

[Hanni]

At least every non-Miracles related thread to get posted in the Format and Article Discussion forum won't devolve into Miracles-bashing threads anymore. Only so many of those arguments one can read before the eyes bleed.

[Dice_Box]

Wooooweee another midrange deck ResidentSleeper
Rick and Morty are suddenly in my head for some reason.

I have no clue what happens now, I am interested to see though. I think control is seceded to Lands in the short term, with Blade possiblely making a come back. I feel like Landstill is likely not going to. The deck is weak to a Delver or a Vial, two common opening plays.

My personal interest is in decks like Aluren and Food Chain. These two were making a decent, not fantastic but decent, showing of late. With Elves likely on the rise, can one really hope to play a deck like Aluren without Recruiters hoping to midrange value out your opponents while digging for your combo?

Also Elves, dear God Elves. Welcome back to the DTB section. But the deck is not unbeatable. It is strong, and better now than any time in recent history, but its not a deck without weaknesses of its own.

This meta, it's going to be interesting for a while. I am going to enjoy the DTB updates over the next few months.

[Nestalim]

Wow you really backed that point up with a lot of evidence and solid reasoning.

It doesn't need to, it's logical comprehension. If you're lacking that, you should stay at your place, on the 0-3 round table.

[LOLWut]

It doesn't need to, it's logical comprehension. If you're lacking that, you should stay at your place, on the 0-3 round table.

That's your home now, too.

[Nestalim]

That's your home now, too.

For that, I'll need to go to any tournaments. Beside the fact that Legacy was decaying pretty fast and it was a rare thing, this announcement will drop even more the attendancy.

While I will enjoy my salt, enjoy your 8-men <3

[JDK]

Kitchen table master 3000 strikes again.

[Barook]

Elves will obviously gain metagame share.

I do wonder where this is going to put Burn, though. With Counterbalance out of the picture, everybody playing BUG clusterfuck manabases being ideal PoP targets and Harsh Mentor being the new hotness (take that, fetches & DRS!), it should be significantly better in the new metagame.

[Brael]

Elves will obviously gain metagame share.

I do wonder where this is going to put Burn, though. With Counterbalance out of the picture, everybody playing BUG clusterfuck manabases being ideal PoP targets and Harsh Mentor being the new hotness (take that, fetches & DRS!), it should be significantly better in the new metagame.

I had similar thoughts. Burn loses to combo decks though, and combo is probably going to rise up.

[tescrin]

Elves will obviously gain metagame share.

I do wonder where this is going to put Burn, though. With Counterbalance out of the picture, everybody playing BUG clusterfuck manabases being ideal PoP targets and Harsh Mentor being the new hotness (take that, fetches & DRS!), it should be significantly better in the new metagame.

This has been my point. We're gonna start with Elves, which will also bring out Storm[TES]/Reanimator/Dredge I think; so that the combos can race. This will prompt a rise in, I think.. RUG Delver again, because it'll have the speed to contend again.

At the same time, Burn can get free wins on the devolved "I run nothing but duals and Fetches and tri-color dudes" manabases; and we could well see burns in the top 8.

Expect to see S&T on the rise in a couple months as a way to deal with the Combo-Menace I think.


EDIT: Even if it turns out to be grixis delver, I would expect some Red in the mix; since Rebs will be important for the counter-battles that are coming up. I also anticipate we may see a Jund come back due to it's game against fellow mid-range decks and D&T. If it dodges enough combo or gets lucky, it will be back on the charts.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

For that, I'll need to go to any tournaments. Beside the fact that Legacy was decaying pretty fast and it was a rare thing, this announcement will drop even more the attendancy.

While I will enjoy my salt, enjoy your 8-men <3Please don't go, I want you to keep posting.

[Megadeus]

This has been my point. We're gonna start with Elves, which will also bring out Storm[TES]/Reanimator/Dredge I think; so that the combos can race. This will prompt a rise in, I think.. RUG Delver again, because it'll have the speed to contend again.

At the same time, Burn can get free wins on the devolved "I run nothing but duals and Fetches and tri-color dudes" manabases; and we could well see burns in the top 8.

Expect to see S&T on the rise in a couple months as a way to deal with the Combo-Menace I think.


EDIT: Even if it turns out to be grixis delver, I would expect some Red in the mix; since Rebs will be important for the counter-battles that are coming up. I also anticipate we may see a Jund come back due to it's game against fellow mid-range decks and D&T. If it dodges enough combo or gets lucky, it will be back on the charts.
And then it all comes full circle again of a healthy shifting meta.
Elves gets good. That makes combo good. That then makes delver good. Which makes midrange good. Which then comes full circle and elves beats that.

[Jander78]

If you're not here to discuss the potential Legacy environment, don't post. Flames, insults, and spam will not be tolerated any further. Consider this an open warning.

[Crimhead]

Elves will obviously gain metagame share.

I do wonder where this is going to put Burn, though. With Counterbalance out of the picture, everybody playing BUG clusterfuck manabases being ideal PoP targets and Harsh Mentor being the new hotness (take that, fetches & DRS!), it should be significantly better in the new metagame.

Burn is good vs Elves too.

I expect Burn to become tier-one quality - if we can only find (quality) willing pilots!

[Hanni]

Burn is good vs Elves too.

I expect Burn to become tier-one quality - if we can only find (quality) willing pilots!

I think Burn has been excellently positioned, well before the announcement today. The shift to grindy midrange, especially with atrocious manabases like 4c Czech Pile, is prime for aggressive red strategies. With Burn now able to trim the clunk (Exquisite Firecraft), it's going to be even better positioned to crush the current metagame, until it shifts.

[Aggro_zombies]

Counterbalance being dead means a few things:

- Chalice is your premiere lock card, and it doesn't see play in Brainstorm decks. Decks like Eldrazi and Loam get marginally better but still suffer from consistency issues that will keep them from going the distance in big tournaments.

- As others have noted, the most logical deck to build toward for Miracles players is some sort of Stoneblade or Mentor build. These will see a bump, but the lack of Counterbalance to give you long-term control means durdling isn't that rewarding. If you don't have some kind of clock, you will get ground out eventually, so you have to be more aggressive.

- Control players are sad, as no true control deck exists or can exist anymore. The format is not unlike Modern now, where midrange is your best bet for playing a longer game because you have more tools to be proactive, and being proactive shortens the game and means you lose to random shit less often. Counterbalance saved people's asses from a lot of "I'll sculpt a perfect hand and then kill you through Force" gameplay, and there's no equivalent now.

- Aggro gets mildly better, but not really. Midrange will still choke the life out of it, so pure aggro decks like Affinity, Zoo, or Sligh are still kind of garbo. UR Delver is probably the most aggressive you can safely get without being Just Dead to a significant chunk of the format.

- Combo is back! Decks like Storm that were too difficult / draining to pilot through a sea of Counterbalances and counterspells get better because now the raw density of disruption goes down. I expect more Storm to show up at top tables.

[Hanni]

Counterbalance being dead means a few things:

- Chalice is your premiere lock card, and it doesn't see play in Brainstorm decks. Decks like Eldrazi and Loam get marginally better but still suffer from consistency issues that will keep them from going the distance in big tournaments.

- As others have noted, the most logical deck to build toward for Miracles players is some sort of Stoneblade or Mentor build. These will see a bump, but the lack of Counterbalance to give you long-term control means durdling isn't that rewarding. If you don't have some kind of clock, you will get ground out eventually, so you have to be more aggressive.

- Control players are sad, as no true control deck exists or can exist anymore. The format is not unlike Modern now, where midrange is your best bet for playing a longer game because you have more tools to be proactive, and being proactive shortens the game and means you lose to random shit less often. Counterbalance saved people's asses from a lot of "I'll sculpt a perfect hand and then kill you through Force" gameplay, and there's no equivalent now.

- Aggro gets mildly better, but not really. Midrange will still choke the life out of it, so pure aggro decks like Affinity, Zoo, or Sligh are still kind of garbo. UR Delver is probably the most aggressive you can safely get without being Just Dead to a significant chunk of the format.

- Combo is back! Decks like Storm that were too difficult / draining to pilot through a sea of Counterbalances and counterspells get better because now the raw density of disruption goes down. I expect more Storm to show up at top tables.

Sligh crushes midrange. It's hardest matchups are Br Reanimator and Turbo Depths, with ANT/TES slightly worse than 50/50 and Delver being slightly better than 50/50. Everything else is a pretty good matchup.

[CutthroatCasual]

Counterbalance being dead means a few things:

- Chalice is your premiere lock card, and it doesn't see play in Brainstorm decks. Decks like Eldrazi and Loam get marginally better but still suffer from consistency issues that will keep them from going the distance in big tournaments.

- As others have noted, the most logical deck to build toward for Miracles players is some sort of Stoneblade or Mentor build. These will see a bump, but the lack of Counterbalance to give you long-term control means durdling isn't that rewarding. If you don't have some kind of clock, you will get ground out eventually, so you have to be more aggressive.

- Control players are sad, as no true control deck exists or can exist anymore. The format is not unlike Modern now, where midrange is your best bet for playing a longer game because you have more tools to be proactive, and being proactive shortens the game and means you lose to random shit less often. Counterbalance saved people's asses from a lot of "I'll sculpt a perfect hand and then kill you through Force" gameplay, and there's no equivalent now.

- Aggro gets mildly better, but not really. Midrange will still choke the life out of it, so pure aggro decks like Affinity, Zoo, or Sligh are still kind of garbo. UR Delver is probably the most aggressive you can safely get without being Just Dead to a significant chunk of the format.

- Combo is back! Decks like Storm that were too difficult / draining to pilot through a sea of Counterbalances and counterspells get better because now the raw density of disruption goes down. I expect more Storm to show up at top tables.

+1 to all of the above except for the last point. Whitefaces will disagree all day without providing any supporting argument, but while CB was difficult for Storm decks to fight through, it's not like it was impossible to beat. Of course when games go long Storm is going to lose; that's how the deck works. I've been killed by ANT through an on-curve 2 CB as often as I've blind flipped just what I needed to in order to counter their go-spell.

I will say that Miracles definitely punched Storm in the gut, but the card that I contend actually killed the deck is Leovold. Being able to draw 10+ cards during the ANT player's go-turn means that you can pretty much find any answer that you need. Now, if decks start playing ETW as the payoff instead, that will change. But look at it this way:


With Miracles in the format, Storm was effectively forced into going to Tendrils every time since ETW was less effective
With Miracles and Leovold in the format, neither of Storm's finishers would get the job done since Tendrils now could be Mindbreak Trapped or Flusterstormed away after the opponent drew half their deck. AND the Storm player now could no longer cantrip to set up their go-turn
With Miracles out of the format, Storm will be looking towards ETW as the main finisher as Leovold remains present, but the issue of Leovold preventing them from sculpting their hand remains


I don't think see Storm's numbers going up as much as you're anticipating.

[Crimhead]

Counterbalance being dead means a few things:

Chalice is your premiere lock card...

...Control players are sad, as no true control deck exists or can exist anymore. The format is not unlike Modern now, where midrange is your best bet for playing a longer game because you have more tools to be proactive, and being proactive shortens the game and means you lose to random shit less often. Counterbalance saved people's asses from a lot of "I'll sculpt a perfect hand and then kill you through Force" gameplay, and there's no equivalent now.

Maybe Tezz will rise?


Sligh crushes midrange. It's hardest matchups are Br Reanimator and Turbo Depths, with ANT/TES slightly worse than 50/50 and Delver being slightly better than 50/50. Everything else is a pretty good matchup.


I think Burn has been excellently positioned, well before the announcement today. The shift to grindy midrange, especially with atrocious manabases like 4c Czech Pile, is prime for aggressive red strategies. With Burn now able to trim the clunk (Exquisite Firecraft), it's going to be even better positioned to crush the current metagame, until it shifts.

If we get (and keep) a tier-one aggro deck in the form of Burn or Sligh, that's almost worth trading our only hard (permission) control deck.

[Brael]

Burn is good vs Elves too.

I expect Burn to become tier-one quality - if we can only find (quality) willing pilots!

I'm a pretty quality pilot, I don't play on MTGO though, or at big events.

I could see a properly built Burn list hitting T1, it's going to involve a lot of metagaming though in figuring out the opposing decks.

[Aggro_zombies]

+1 to all of the above except for the last point. Whitefaces will disagree all day without providing any supporting argument, but while CB was difficult for Storm decks to fight through, it's not like it was impossible to beat. Of course when games go long Storm is going to lose; that's how the deck works. I've been killed by ANT through an on-curve 2 CB as often as I've blind flipped just what I needed to in order to counter their go-spell.

I will say that Miracles definitely punched Storm in the gut, but the card that I contend actually killed the deck is Leovold. Being able to draw 10+ cards during the ANT player's go-turn means that you can pretty much find any answer that you need. Now, if decks start playing ETW as the payoff instead, that will change. But look at it this way:


With Miracles in the format, Storm was effectively forced into going to Tendrils every time since ETW was less effective
With Miracles and Leovold in the format, neither of Storm's finishers would get the job done since Tendrils now could be Mindbreak Trapped or Flusterstormed away after the opponent drew half their deck. AND the Storm player now could no longer cantrip to set up their go-turn
With Miracles out of the format, Storm will be looking towards ETW as the main finisher as Leovold remains present, but the issue of Leovold preventing them from sculpting their hand remains


I don't think see Storm's numbers going up as much as you're anticipating.
It's not that Counterbalance was difficult to fight through, it's that it's mentally taxing to do it round after round after round. Fatigue is a real thing, and it's way more likely to happen when you're playing a deck with a large number of decision trees into matchups where every decision matters and your opponent is constantly threatening to just mise you with cards like Entreat. Why play a deck that requires perfect or near-perfect play all day when you can play a deck with slightly less theoretical power that forgives mistakes much more readily, like Delver?

Leovold is powerful, certainly. We'll see how much he shows up going forward. If the format has a much higher percentage of Lightning Bolts than it does currently, I suspect TNN will be the more attractive three-drop, and that's better for Storm.

[Scott]

By the way, when's the next big Legacy tourney? I'm super intrigued to see top 8s.

[TheManWithaPlan]

By the way, when's the next big Legacy tourney? I'm super intrigued to see top 8s.
I would highly recommend watching the Legacy Premier League on Thursday at 5:pm EST. Check out http://itsjulian.com/ for details, decklists and coverage archives.

[ubernostrum]

Small-efficient-creature aggro (i.e., Zoo) will not come back no matter how much people wish for it. Kird Ape is invalidated by far too many things in the format nowadays. Legacy for the foreseeable future is a BUG versus combo world with everything else second tier or lower, until later this year when Deathrite Shaman gets banned. After that, anybody's guess.

[Ellomdian]

Maybe Tezz will rise?

Shhhhhh... Don't tell anyone...

But seriously, the matchup against Miracles was fun, but slightly favored in Tezz's side. I think it gains a bit if the super fast, low to the ground aggro comes back in force. Chalice is a WONDERFUL card against UR/RUG variants. The dirty thing to keep in mind is that we keep Bridges, but there are likely less MD Decays elsewhere.

[LOLWut]

Small-efficient-creature aggro (i.e., Zoo) will not come back no matter how much people wish for it. Kird Ape is invalidated by far too many things in the format nowadays. Legacy for the foreseeable future is a BUG versus combo world with everything else second tier or lower, until later this year when Deathrite Shaman gets banned. After that, anybody's guess.

Utter fearmongering and oversimplification. Do come back in a year to confirm your prediction.

[Crimhead]

Zoo is dead forever, and Merfolk & Affinity likely didn't get much help.

Burn on the other hand was awfully good already, just lost a very bad match-up, and is getting a new toy. That deck might just get the push it needs.

[btm10]

I think the level 0 read of 'Storm and Elves get better' is spot on. I actually think Burn gets marginally worse since Miracles was a pretty good matchup (once Surgical almost completely displaced Rest in Peace) and the combo decks that will take up some of that meta share are tougher for it than Miracles was. It's still well-positioned and I'll probably play it sometimes, though it still has stigma issues that will keep its meta share lower than it should be.

A more interesting question is what becomes of Eldrazi. I have no idea how good Elves is against it, but if enough Storm shows up it stands to reason that Thought-Knot Seer will be there to pick up the slack. That being said, Eldrazi's​ matchup against BUG of any kind is pretty ugly, so if Leovold decks become the things to beat (which I'm somewhat skeptical about), I don't think Eldrazi will be able to rationalize its existence over something like Blood Moon Stompy.

I'm fascinated to know what becomes of Control. I don't think there's likely to be a tier 1 Blade Control deck in the equilibrium metagame; the BUG vs. Blade matchup was always pretty heavily weighted toward the BUG side, to the point where I felt favored with Hymn/Liliana BUG Delver against basically all of the Blade decks pre-Treasure Cruise. Mentor and Spell Queller provide those decks additional angles of attack, but we're firmly in Midrange territory at that point. I like Landstill's position if Shardless doesn't come back, since Standstill costs 2 to Leovold's 3 (and is potentially even playable in the same decks).

[Scott]

I would highly recommend watching the Legacy Premier League on Thursday at 5:pm EST. Check out http://itsjulian.com/ for details, decklists and coverage archives.

Will definitely be tuning in.

[Crimhead]

I'm fascinated to know what becomes of Control.
Savvy Miracles Pilots are trading their Tundras for The Tabdrnacle At Pendrell Vale. :wink:

[Maximus]

I don't think storm cares a lot about Leo, it's just another hatebear. I would still be much more afraid of Thalia between the two. It will be nice to not have to sideboard 8-9 cards for a single MU though. Also agree with whoever said the Level 0 prediction of storm and elves coming back. I'll take this one step further and call generic creature decks coming back as well. Maverick isn't nearly as "fair" a deck as people make it out to be.

[Scott]

I'm also intrigued to see if another tier 1 hard control list can emerge. I'm seeing people talk about things like a revamped Miracles/UW Control, Lands, U/B Tezz, and Landstill variants of UBGx & UWx colors.

I haven't seen it mentioned, but another cool one would be a Landstill deck in URx colors like this (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=19216&iddeck=146063) with things like Stifle and Fiery Confluence. No idea how good it is.

[Crimhead]

I actually think Burn gets marginally worse since Miracles was a pretty good matchup (once Surgical almost completely displaced Rest in Peace) and the combo decks that will take up some of that meta share are tougher for it than Miracles was.
Elves won't be tougher than Miracles - especially since cutting Exquisite Firecraft makes room for more Searing Blood.

[btm10]

Savvy Miracles Pilots are trading their Tundras for The Tabdrnacle At Pendrell Vale. :wink:

I realize you're joking, but I don't think that's likely. Cost issues aside, Lands can still be hated out, and the cards that are good against Lands (Wasteland, Pithing Needle, Chalice, nonbasic land hate, and graveyard hate) are all still good against the field (and many are getting better). If people want to hate Lands out, most can do it without hurting their other matchups too much. When people sleeve up interactive blue decks, they're almost always saying that they plan to outplay enough opponents to go X-1-1 or X-2 without having to worry about many specific matchups, and Lands doesn't usually offer that experience.


I don't think storm cares a lot about Leo, it's just another hatebear. I would still be much more afraid of Thalia between the two. It will be nice to not have to sideboard 8-9 cards for a single MU though. Also agree with whoever said the Level 0 prediction of storm and elves coming back. I'll take this one step further and call generic creature decks coming back as well. Maverick isn't nearly as "fair" a deck as people make it out to be.

Storm cares about Leo if he's what comes at the end of threat into Hymn into Thoughtseize. If people start playing more Flusterstorms or Mindbreak Traps his value will go up against​ Storm.

EDIT:


Elves won't be tougher than Miracles - especially since cutting Exquisite Firecraft makes room for more Searing Blood.

Elves is a fine matchup for Burn. ANT and Sneak and Show are uphill (though not as much as people think).

[thefringthing]

I will say that Miracles definitely punched Storm in the gut, but the card that I contend actually killed the deck is Leovold.I think Sanctum Prelate is high in contention for this honour. If it didn't exist, I'd immediately sleeve up Storm. But having an even or slightly negative Death & Taxes matchup is just embarrassing. Worse, the Burn matchup isn't even that good anymore.

[Crimhead]

When people sleeve up interactive blue decks, they're almost always saying that they plan to outplay enough opponents to go X-1-1 or X-2 without having to worry about many specific matchups, and Lands doesn't usually offer that experience.
Delver is an interactive blue deck.

When people sleeve up the Miracles, sometimes it's because they want a hard control deck that's interesting to pilot. Some of them will look to RUG Lands - the "purest" control deck going.

[Barook]

With Terminus gone, I wonder about the following thing:

Could some kind of Affinity/Ravager Staxx deck become a thing now? Walking Ballista is an incredible stupid card when paired up with Ravager (or Steel Overseer) and depending on how you build it, you could run Chalice and/or multiple Sphere effects.

Sample list (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/625124#online)

Sure, Legacy doesn't have Workshop or broken artifact mana, but I think it might be worth exploring, simply due to higher resilience to Blood Moon/mana denial compared to Eldrazi.

[mistercakes]

Check out the affinity thread I've been posting on for the last 2 weeks.

[Whitefaces]

Whitefaces will disagree all day without providing any supporting argument, but while CB was difficult for Storm decks to fight through, it's not like it was impossible to beat. Of course when games go long Storm is going to lose; that's how the deck works. I've been killed by ANT through an on-curve 2 CB as often as I've blind flipped just what I needed to in order to counter their go-spell.

I will say that Miracles definitely punched Storm in the gut, but the card that I contend actually killed the deck is Leovold. Being able to draw 10+ cards during the ANT player's go-turn means that you can pretty much find any answer that you need. Now, if decks start playing ETW as the payoff instead, that will change. But look at it this way:


With Miracles in the format, Storm was effectively forced into going to Tendrils every time since ETW was less effective
With Miracles and Leovold in the format, neither of Storm's finishers would get the job done since Tendrils now could be Mindbreak Trapped or Flusterstormed away after the opponent drew half their deck. AND the Storm player now could no longer cantrip to set up their go-turn
With Miracles out of the format, Storm will be looking towards ETW as the main finisher as Leovold remains present, but the issue of Leovold preventing them from sculpting their hand remains


I don't think see Storm's numbers going up as much as you're anticipating.

'Of course when games go long Storm is going to lose' - this wasn't true at all until recently. Post board, with the grinding station setup that was widely adapted, it definitely favoured Storm as they could set up land drops with cantrips/top for a very easy combo turn with PiF.

But I think Miracles was favoured vs Storm in the last year, though it was a close matchup being very pilot dependent. CB wasn't the killer itself, it was that backed up by the huge glut of countermagic and most importantly, surgical extraction and Snapcaster Mage taking away the ability to grind with multiple Tendrils.

Leovold absolutely didn't kill the deck. Ask any good Storm pilot and they're tell you differently. Leo is great vs them, but is still a hatebear, it's arguably worse than Meddling Mage or Canonist since you can still combo through them and hope they don't draw the Trap or Fluster if you've not set up enough mana floating. With something like Mage or Canonist, you still need to answer them first.

I mean, did you even follow the meta in the last half a year or so? Storm was the second best placing deck for a while on Goldfish. I agree with the others that Miracles leaving the format favours it.

[Dice_Box]

I just pulled BUG out of the DTB and added ANT. Leo definitely killed storm...

[bruizar]

Obviously there are huge ripple effects from Top that we won't fully understand for some time.

I'm sleeving up Maverick again. I think Storm will probably pick up, and like you mentioned, Elves. With that in mind, I'll probably hedge on more Zealous Persecutions, Null Rods, maybe an Engineered Plague, and some extra discard.

This is some solid advise, and I will do the same.

[Megadeus]

Delver is an interactive blue deck.

When people sleeve up the Miracles, sometimes it's because they want a hard control deck that's interesting to pilot. Some of them will look to RUG Lands - the "purest" control deck going.

While I agree, I think that it is a very difficult transition. They are somehow switching to a slower deck, plus the decks both play a heavily control game, but in vastly different ways. Playing counterspells and counter top is far different from trying to control the game via mana denial and tabernacle and punishing fires and recurring EE's.

[CutthroatCasual]

I just pulled BUG out of the DTB and added ANT. Leo definitely killed storm...

ANT is a DTB at the same time as Miracles? Miracles definitely killed Storm...

[Megadeus]

The DTB section isn't just his personal thoughts. It's a number driven section. His point is that Storm isn't dead at all. To either miracles or BUG despite some claims.

[Whitefaces]

Legacy killed Storm!

[Crimhead]

While I agree, I think that it is a very difficult transition. They are somehow switching to a slower deck, plus the decks both play a heavily control game, but in vastly different ways. Playing counterspells and counter top is far different from trying to control the game via mana denial and tabernacle and punishing fires and recurring EE's.

Absolutely. I am not expecting a mass migration!

But I believe there is a subset of Miracles players who have also enjoyed prison control over the course of their MTG hobby. An others who mostly enjoy control for the sake of control and might very well be willing to learn to play prison. Not every Miracles player will be happy to switch to midrange-control.

Basically I'm expecting a moderate surge in interest.

Also, some people are expecting combo summer, while others are predicting tons of fair creature decks. Obviously one of these argues more for Lands than the other!

BTM10 was half way correct, in that I was half way joking. :wink:


The DTB section isn't just his personal thoughts. It's a number driven section. His point is that Storm isn't dead at all. To either miracles or BUG despite some claims.
Yet everybody claimed Miracles had no natural predators, despite Infect frequently showing up there. As if DTB were an objective numbers driven concept except for Infect. :laugh:

I'm not actually bitter, for the record. Just having fun.

[Whitefaces]

Saying Infect was a predator of Miracles is a bit of a push.

[Crimhead]

Saying Infect was a predator of Miracles is a bit of a push.
it was virtually an auto-loss for Miracles is all.

[CptHaddock]

it was virtually an auto-loss for Miracles is all.

LOL since when? Any "predator" of miracles had the same exact problem, they would be %60+ against miracles game 1 and then when game 2 and 3 came around the matchup win % drastically dropped. I don't know how often you step out of your lands bubble but what you said is certainly not true.

[Crimhead]

LOL since when? Any "predator" of miracles had the same exact problem, they would be %60+ against miracles game 1 and then when game 2 and 3 came around the matchup win % drastically dropped. I don't know how often you step out of your lands bubble but what you said is certainly not true.

Maybe Tom Ross is in a Lands bubble too?

He said he only lost to Miracles once.

Infect kills (with protection) before Counter-Top gets set up.

[Dice_Box]

it was virtually an auto-loss for Miracles is all.
I just went to Mtgcoverage and pulled up the last three vids of the match, not cherry picking, these are the latest three I can find on the site:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NrfCdUUwGHY
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LJb99luswaE
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Bg69nCd36N4

Only one of those three games looks like it was a wipe out. No auto losses there.

[Crimhead]

I just went to Mtgcoverage and pulled up the last three vids of the match, not cherry picking, these are the latest three I can find on the site:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NrfCdUUwGHY
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LJb99luswaE
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Bg69nCd36N4

Only one of those three games looks like it was a wipe out. No auto losses there.

Still shows a 2:1 win-rate (for what that much data is worth).

Would you agree Infect was strongly favoured?


I don't know how often you step out of your lands bubble...

What? Why would I do that?

[Dice_Box]

Still shows a 2:1 win-rate (for what that much data is worth).

Would you agree Infect was strongly favoured?
Will I agree its favoured? Appears so. Strongly? No.

Also I wasn't looking at the win rate, I was looking at the situations that the decks created. The claim that it was an auto loss for Miracles was false. High Tide is basically an auto loss for Land's. Delver is basically an auto loss for Beltcher. Miracles was not happy to see Infect, but there was nothing like the reaction I have when someone sits across from me playing Reanimator and I am playing Land's.

[Whitefaces]

it was virtually an auto-loss for Miracles is all.

And this is based off...Tom Ross saying he only lost to it once?

[Webb]

And this is based off...Tom Ross saying he only lost to it once?

While it was certainly a bad matchup for Miracles, I think once is an exaggeration. I watched a friend beat him with Miracles at an SCG Open, unless that is the once he's referring to. Tom also won that open with that being his only match loss I believe.

[Megadeus]

I think it is generally accepoted that Infect is favored against miracles. I wouldn't go and say it's a bye, but I've heard from most people (though maybe they just parrot Tom Ross word for word) that it is good for them.

[Whitefaces]

Yeah, Infect is favoured. To say it's an auto loss is absurd.

[maharis]

Yeah and Infect eats it to any deck that could block or play wasteland which is like 60% of the format outside Miracles. So congrats on that slightly favorable Miracles matchup. Like everyone knows they can't win if they don't have a guy, right? Play removal.

There was way too much rationalizing Miracles with stories about how X deck was 61% against it therefore all is well. "Just play 12-post!" That's the definition of format-warping.

Miracles is dead now and good riddance. Considering it was suffocating the format for close to three years I think Legacy deserves maybe 6 months to a year to see what happens before lamenting the loss of the only "control" (actually it was prison but w/e) deck and griping about 50% Deathrite decks and the "oppression" of a 3/2 that dies to freaking Pyroblast. "Wah people use creatures to win!" Like getting curbstomped by 32 power of Angels is somehow different than taking 3 at a time off Wild Nacatl.

[apple713]

Counterbalance being dead means a few things:

- Chalice is your premiere lock card, and it doesn't see play in Brainstorm decks. Decks like Eldrazi and Loam get marginally better but still suffer from consistency issues that will keep them from going the distance in big tournaments.

- As others have noted, the most logical deck to build toward for Miracles players is some sort of Stoneblade or Mentor build. These will see a bump, but the lack of Counterbalance to give you long-term control means durdling isn't that rewarding. If you don't have some kind of clock, you will get ground out eventually, so you have to be more aggressive.

- Control players are sad, as no true control deck exists or can exist anymore. The format is not unlike Modern now, where midrange is your best bet for playing a longer game because you have more tools to be proactive, and being proactive shortens the game and means you lose to random shit less often. Counterbalance saved people's asses from a lot of "I'll sculpt a perfect hand and then kill you through Force" gameplay, and there's no equivalent now.

- Aggro gets mildly better, but not really. Midrange will still choke the life out of it, so pure aggro decks like Affinity, Zoo, or Sligh are still kind of garbo. UR Delver is probably the most aggressive you can safely get without being Just Dead to a significant chunk of the format.

- Combo is back! Decks like Storm that were too difficult / draining to pilot through a sea of Counterbalances and counterspells get better because now the raw density of disruption goes down. I expect more Storm to show up at top tables.

You have done an excellent job at reading my mind. Your post sums up my thoughts. Additionally, I think that new decks will be created / start showing up more because miracles was more or less oppressive to creativity since it set a fairly high bar for new decks to enter the format.

[Lemnear]

Will I agree its favoured? Appears so. Strongly? No.

Also I wasn't looking at the win rate, I was looking at the situations that the decks created. The claim that it was an auto loss for Miracles was false. High Tide is basically an auto loss for Land's. Delver is basically an auto loss for Beltcher. Miracles was not happy to see Infect, but there was nothing like the reaction I have when someone sits across from me playing Reanimator and I am playing Land's.

I suspect its the same type of hyperboling which was made in terms of "Miracles sometimes loses to some fringe decks, so Miracles is totally not overpowered in regards to the meta!". /s

[Crimhead]

And this is based off...Tom Ross saying he only lost to it once?
I have played around with Infect a little (not competitive play). I only played the Miracles match once (inexperienced Miracles pilot), but I've played many long and interactive games against good Miracles pilots with other decks.
I've watched the Miracles vs Infect match a couple times too.

Ross's sentiment is supported by my comprehension of the decks. My knowledge of those decks is limited, but I would not simply "parrot" an opinion if I didn't make sense to me.


Yeah and Infect eats it to any deck that could block or play wasteland which is like 60% of the format outside Miracles. So congrats on that slightly favorable Miracles matchup. Like everyone knows they can't win if they don't have a guy, right? Play removal.

I guess we should remove Infect from the DTB section because you've clearly established bad against the field.

[tescrin]

Stuff about storm vs leovold

The problem with this entire argument is that Storm has a harder time going off through:
* Thalia
* Cannonist
* Prelate
* Teeg
* Meddling Mage
* etc..

Leovald is a strictly worse card in everything but power:
* Costs more to get out -> often a turn slower or less mana open
* Doesn't actually stop them. This means that a storm player can play through him in the same way they do against Thalia & Co. except rather than lose mana (which they care about) you draw a card, making Leovald a Baleful Strix that they occasionally have to kill.
* It assumes that a 2-3 of Hatebear matters


As someone who faces a lot of storm and has come to intimately understand the Storm v Hatebear dynamic; it's rarely fast enough to get it T2 if they have interaction, especially if you didn't draw any/much other interaction. Leovald makes this even worse by costing 3 mana, making the "perfect hand" all that much more difficult to get. I don't see a storm player blinking an eye and just decaying him before killing you. The number of times I've gone:
Discard->Hatebear and they went "Decay, kill you" is huge.


The point is, Leovald is *worse* than every single other hatebear, because he doesn't actually prevent the combo or buy you time, he expects you to lucksack into interaction, and costs more to boot. Getting him T2 off DRS and drawing 10 into your flusterstorm doesn't give you a win; because you have no mana.


The reason storms numbers are down are a mix of Chalice Spam and Balance spam IMO. Chalice->Go is such an obnoxious problem for them by comparison to "Go, go, Leovald" because it screws up the cantrips in a timely fashion, screws up the ramp cards, and all while getting taxed, Thoughtseize-Eldrazi'd, or punched for 4+ at a time. That deck is actually obnoxious for storm to navigate because it main-decks the type of hate people normally sideboard, and has a fast clock.

There is no way it was Leovald IMO

[Whitefaces]

I have played around with Infect a little (not competitive play). I only played the Miracles match once (inexperienced Miracles pilot), but I've played many long and interactive games against good Miracles pilots with other decks.
I've watched the Miracles vs Infect match a couple times too.

Ross's sentiment is supported by my comprehension of the decks. My knowledge of those decks is limited, but I would not simply "parrot" an opinion if I didn't make sense to me.

I guess we should remove Infect from the DTB section because you've clearly established bad against the field.

'but I would not simply "parrot" an opinion'

By your own admission, that's what you've just done? You don't have any meaningful experience in the matchup. The lands vs Miracles matchup is completely different, I don't see how that bares any relevance at all?

I've played both decks a fair amount, in and out of tournaments. Infect is favoured, but far, far from the landslide you've been led to believe.

No idea what to make of your last statement.

[twndomn]

The problem with this entire argument is that Storm has a harder time going off through:
* Cannonist


A person who's a cannon. Or are you thinking canonist?

[out51d3r]

Infect was definitely advantaged against Miracles, though I wouldn't call it an auto win. It's strength against Miracles was one of the reasons it broke into DTB fairly often, but not the only one. It wasn't a "stomps on Miracles but loses to everything else" like 12post. More like "advantaged against Miracles and decent/good against lots of other things".

Hopefully "advantaged against Elves and decent/good against lots of other things" will give it a similar position in the new meta as it had in the old one.

[morgan_coke]

I think Astral Slide will end up with a strong place in the new metagame.

[Ephemeron]

The problem with this entire argument is that Storm has a harder time going off through:
* Thalia
* Cannonist
* Prelate
* Teeg
* Meddling Mage
* etc..


There is no way it was Leovald IMO

The problem with the list of cards you've presented compared to Leovold is that Leovold is actually played maindeck in most midrange decks that even remotely have a chance to cast him on time. About the closest comparison you can make is Thalia, and that's still only played in D&T (a great deck for sure, but an acquired taste that will probably never occupy a big metagame portion), Maverick (no one played this seriously) or White Eldrazi (extremely fringe deck). Prelate is a 1 of in a deck with limited ways to find him on command, Teeg is only played in GSZ decks which are rare right now, Canonist is a fringe sideboard card, Meddling Mage sees roughly 0 play, etc.

It's easy to say you just abrupt decay a hatebear and move on with your life, but you don't have that luxury game one, and in sideboarded games, you get a way to deal with Leo but the BUG deck gets more hate too. I don't think Leo killed storm or anything, but sticking a game 1 Leo against storm is still a tremendous play and makes it harder to win game one against BUG midrange than it used to be.

TL;DR Leo is just a hatebear against storm but it's a hatebear that a lot of decks can and do play game one and that alone is enough to make playing storm a more miserable proposition than it was before.

[Noctalor]

it was virtually an auto-loss for Miracles is all.

Is this a joke?

[Crimhead]

'but I would not simply "parrot" an opinion'

By your own admission, that's what you've just done? You don't have any meaningful experience in the matchup. The lands vs Miracles matchup is completely different, I don't see how that bares any relevance at all?


- I've watched the match.
- I've tested it once.
- I've saw reddit win-rate data that was being collected a couple years ago
- I heard statement from the top Infect player

Maybe I was wrong, but I wasn't mindlessly regurgitating whatever I happened to hear (aka, "parroting".

Also I have had tournament matches vs Miracles with Enchantress and Dredge as well various Lands configurations.



No idea what to make of your last statement.
Sarcasm. maharis saw fit to liken Infect to 12-Post as a viable deck.

[CutthroatCasual]

Is this a joke?

An exaggeration not far from the truth is called hyperbole. Ironic that you wouldn't know the meaning.


[Leovold]

It was a combination of factors but the final nail in the coffin was Leo.

[Noctalor]

An exaggeration not far from the truth is called hyperbole. Ironic that you wouldn't know the meaning.



It was a combination of factors but the final nail in the coffin was Leo.

Not far from the truth you say?

I think it is pretty far from the truth, you guys still trying to defend miracle even after the deserved ban are overdoing it, miracles had not a single unwinnable MU, miracle was the unwinnable MU for a lot of decks.

And I am not saying that because I was salty about miracles or bad at playing against it, when i decided that enought was enought I picked up the deck myself and literally facerolled everything, I am pretty sure that you guys who have played that deck since forever are not even aware of what an unwinnable MU feels like, because if you saw the meta during the years only by playing miracles it's pretty easy to not understand how insanely easy it was for the deck to fight at least evenly against the rest of the field.

[Scott]

Just as the first very, very tiny bit of data, the three 5-0 decks in today's MTGO Competitive Legacy Constructed League (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2017-04-25) were Aggro Loam, Sneak & Show, and a BUG thing with Delver, Jace, Snapcaster, Hymn, etc.

[Dice_Box]

Just as the first very, very tiny bit of data, the three 5-0 decks in today's MTGO Competitive Legacy Constructed League (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2017-04-25) were Aggro Loam, Sneak & Show, and a BUG thing with Delver, Jace, Snapcaster, Hymn, etc.
Top is still legal right now.

[Corazu]

Top is still legal right now.

No it's not. (https://twitter.com/MagicOnline/status/856558363554992128)

[Scott]

Top is still legal right now.

Oh, weird, I don't use MTGO. WotC's banned list announcement said that the MTGO effective date was 4/24. Thanks for the heads up though.

[Dice_Box]

No it's not. (https://twitter.com/MagicOnline/status/856558363554992128)
I stand corrected. I am use to the announcement taking effect on the Friday. This is new to me.

[Brael]

Just as the first very, very tiny bit of data, the three 5-0 decks in today's MTGO Competitive Legacy Constructed League (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2017-04-25) were Aggro Loam, Sneak & Show, and a BUG thing with Delver, Jace, Snapcaster, Hymn, etc.

I'm no expert on the Legacy metagame, I mainly stick to Nic Fit or Burn and just tune them... but I'm expecting a UW deck to rise up. Pretty much everyone thinks Chalice is going to turn into the formats policeman, and Chalice+Prelate is super hateful, maybe Esper to include Toxic Deluge (probably the best option without a reliable Terminus) and DRS to Prelate on T2.

[JDK]

I have played around with Infect a little (not competitive play). I only played the Miracles match once (inexperienced Miracles pilot), but I've played many long and interactive games against good Miracles pilots with other decks.
I've watched the Miracles vs Infect match a couple times too.

Ross's sentiment is supported by my comprehension of the decks. My knowledge of those decks is limited, but I would not simply "parrot" an opinion if I didn't make sense to me.


- I've watched the match.
- I've tested it once.
- I've saw reddit win-rate data that was being collected a couple years ago
- I heard statement from the top Infect player

Maybe I was wrong, but I wasn't mindlessly regurgitating whatever I happened to hear (aka, "parroting".

Also I have had tournament matches vs Miracles with Enchantress and Dredge as well various Lands configurations.

Okay okay okay, to get this straight...

...it's an autoloss because:
Tom Ross, a heck of a Magic player and master of Infect, played against mostly less experienced players (unless he, for some reason, only plays other exceptional players at tournaments) and says he didn't lose to them more than once (quotation needed).
You tested the matchup once.
Reddit-data from "a couple years ago" (source please)
You watched some matches
You playing against Miracles with other decks

[Munchyman]

I'm assuming the next big legacy event that gets lots of air time would be MTGfirst's quest for power9 June 4th. Kory runs a bad ass stream @Snapcasters. And being it's Maryland/DC area with lots of great players. I'd hope that it will give us a good insight to were meta will shift too.

I also think Burn will earn a solid place in the tier 1 group. I had a solid belief the only reason why it wasn't tier one beforehand was the dogma it held. And most players that play burn probably don't have 2 round byes. 2 round byes helps so much getting pass the BS decks burn has problems with outside of combo. Like mud. Or other tier 2-3 decks you may face with out byes.

Also combo decks aren't as bad as everyone thinks for burn. If storm or Sneak and show don't go off by turn 2 your odds of winning is actually in your favor. And the match ups get better after SB. And the elves match up is probably the most fun and technical match up ever that's also fairly even.

[JDK]

@Munchyman
This Sunday is MKM Frankfurt, a (probably) several hundred player tournament. I will be there live, to jump into the "what do we do now?" metagame. ^^

The problem with Burn is a lower skill cap in my opinion. You can only get so far with the deck, as it doesn't provide that many interactions and sequences.

[Crimhead]

Reddit-data from "a couple years ago" (source please)

Maybe you weren't around the community at the time, but early summer 2015 there were some threads on Reddit gathering match specific data from major events and recording match specific win-rates.

You are free to look this up. I could do the digging (there are links in the banned list thread if you go back far enough), but I'm not sure what I'm trying to prove to you at this point. You've offered nothing substantial to support your position, other than claiming "personal experience", and you're kind of trolling me now.

[JDK]

This has to be the post with the most irony in it since the history of the Internet.

[Scott]

The ten 5-0 decks in today's MTGO Competitive Legacy Constructed League (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2017-04-26):

ANT X3 (1 w/ Burning Wish)
Grixis Tempo X2
Spanish Inquisition (Skullwinder tech)
Mono-Red Sneak Attack
BGu Dark Depths
BURG Guided Passage
Sneak & Show

RonPaulPilotingStormIt'sHappening.gif

[LOLWut]

threads on Reddit gathering match specific data from major events and recording match specific win-rates

https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/3guyng/scg_legacy_results_for_major_archetypes_12415_8215/

[CutthroatCasual]

Just as the first very, very tiny bit of data, the three 5-0 decks in today's MTGO Competitive Legacy Constructed League (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2017-04-25) were Aggro Loam, Sneak & Show, and a BUG thing with Delver, Jace, Snapcaster, Hymn, etc.

I was told there would be Maverick. I was told there would be Zoo!

[bruizar]

The ten 5-0 decks in today's MTGO Competitive Legacy Constructed League (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2017-04-26):

ANT X3 (1 w/ Burning Wish)
Grixis Tempo X2
Spanish Inquisition (Skullwinder tech)
Mono-Red Sneak Attack
BGu Dark Depths
BURG Guided Passage
Sneak & Show

RonPaulPilotingStormIt'sHappening.gif

fuck me that's a lot of combo

[Megadeus]

Best part about combo? It can always be hated out

[Dice_Box]

fuck me that's a lot of combo
Time to break out Stax.

[Cire]

BURG Guided Passage


:eek: . . . Love that guided passage is being played!

[Barook]

Best part about combo? It can always be hated out
I'll wait for a bit to see how the metagame shakes out, but if Storm/S&T gains significant metashare, I'll probably sleeve up White Eldrazi again.

[Brael]

fuck me that's a lot of combo

It sounds to me like people forgot that the cornerstone of the format is Discard+Counterspells. Your deck must have one or the other, or preferably both in order to be competitive... plus some removal.

If you don't run interaction, combo will beat you.

[Julian23]

:eek: . . . Love that guided passage is being played!

You know Enric is back when people start talking about Guided Passage. I don't even need to check.

All the oldschoolers coming back to Legacy now that Miracles it's gone, it's amazing.

[maharis]

Storm is also pretty cheap online, good way to get your fix while you wait for things to settle down a bit.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

I just got murked by fluctator storm. This is the darkest timeline.

[Crimhead]

It's hard for me to imagine these ten decks are representative of the meta to come.

Even if it were a significant sample size, the meta is shaking up big time. If anything people are excited to play more combo is all. Either way, that kind of meta looks too exploitable to endure if it happens to be the start of a trend.

Fish looks pretty good in that mix - running both CotV and FoW. Old Tezzerator lists used to run Forces along side Chalice too. Tezz has never had a chance to be developed and optimised - it has lots of options. Not to say we would need to dig up fringe decks to answer a combo heavy meta! Just musing on the possibilities. This is a very interesting time to be playing Legacy I think.

[Barook]

Food Chain might be underrepresented since it's a pain in the ass to play on MTGO.

[Cire]

I just got murked by fluctator storm. This is the darkest timeline.

As someone who's having fun working on a shadow of the grave fluctuator list, what did this list look like/include?

[supremePINEAPPLE]

As someone who's having fun working on a shadow of the grave fluctuator list, what did this list look like/include?It was actually really funny. Treasure hunt, dark ritual, lotus petals, shadow of the grave, fluctuator, a bunch of cycling lands with a fluctuator cost, some fetches, some underground seas, and tendrils. Seemed horrible against any blue deck but I was playing Lands so whoops.

[Purple Blood]

Why not Living Death over Tendrils?

[Ronald Deuce]

Why not Living Death over Tendrils?

I like where this is going.

[Ephemeron]

It sounds to me like people forgot that the cornerstone of the format is Discard+Counterspells. Your deck must have one or the other, or preferably both in order to be competitive... plus some removal.

If you don't run interaction, combo will beat you.

Why not play UB Reanimator and do all three?

[Dice_Box]

It was actually really funny. Treasure hunt, dark ritual, lotus petals, shadow of the grave, fluctuator, a bunch of cycling lands with a fluctuator cost, some fetches, some underground seas, and tendrils. Seemed horrible against any blue deck but I was playing Lands so whoops.
One of the local Modern players has this deck built as a joke. He complains no end about Force and loves going against everyone else.

[TsumiBand]

Why not Living Death over Tendrils?

Pay 2bb and win now, or pay 3bb and win tomorrow

Decisions, decisions

[Purple Blood]

Pay 2bb and win now, or pay 3bb and win tomorrow

Decisions, decisions

Seems like it would be easier to get to critical mass with Living Death though and the one mana difference is largely irrelevant in a deck like this. Run some combo of Chalice, Sol Lands, FoW, Fluctuator, Cabal Ritual, Shadow of the Grave, Treasure Hunt and all the biggest blue and black cyclers.

First turn Chalice second turn Fluctuator third turn profit with Chalice and FoW protection?

What's the highest amount of non cycling cards this can run without bricking all the time?

[Cire]

The deck I was working on uses Lab Maniac as a win, which just seems better?




What's the highest amount of non cycling cards this can run without bricking all the time?

Rufus and I tried doing the math here (starting from post 9): http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31559-Shadow-of-the-Fluctuator
(http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31559-Shadow-of-the-Fluctuator)

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Forgot to mention it but he did win with labman in the second game since I got 3 spheres out. I'm not sure which is better in a vacuum but labman seemed pretty safe since he always had an insane amount of cycling cards in hand when going off. Split second stuff was good but he easily drew more fluctuators than I drew grips since he had a ton of lands and could just keep cycling. It was interesting and ended up being much better against my hate than normal storm would have been.

[Brael]

Why not play UB Reanimator and do all three?

That's certainly a valid option.

[Scott]

The ten 5-0 decks in today's MTGO Competitive Legacy Constructed League (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2017-04-27):

Elves X3
ANT X2
Grixis Control
Grixis Tempo
Sneak & OmniShow
Team America
The Epic Storm

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/af/21/5b/af215ba31f034427133a2a65959132e5.gif

[Megadeus]

The ten 5-0 decks in today's MTGO Competitive Legacy Constructed League (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2017-04-27):

Elves X3
ANT X2
Grixis Control
Grixis Tempo
Sneak & OmniShow
Team America
The Epic Storm

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/af/21/5b/af215ba31f034427133a2a65959132e5.gif

Bunch of storm yesterday. More today plus Elves. If I'm playing an SCG or something soon I'm packing 3 Ethersworn Canonist

[Dice_Box]

Bunch of storm yesterday. More today plus Elves. If I'm playing an SCG or something soon I'm packing 3 Ethersworn Canonist

I am looking at 3Ball and Sphere.

[CptHaddock]

The legendary NEKOYAMA on blue zoo finally? Times are tough. :cry:

[Fox]

Not terribly surprising to see a spike in Git. Probe representation after an effective CB ban. As much talk about DRS is next there is, Probe is the more likely target.

Probably worth looking at legacy before the DTT ban where Git Probe was the largest driver of turning on the most successful decks. As SnT rises so too will Grixis Pyro decks; expect legacy to get more blue as a fxn of Probe/SnT vs Probe/Cabal. Should be a fun creative space for legacy as decks are forced more towards the mana floor and their quickest, meanest forms.

[Megadeus]

Not terribly surprising to see a spike in Git. Probe representation after an effective CB ban. As much talk about DRS is next there is, Probe is the more likely target.

Probably worth looking at legacy before the DTT ban where Git Probe was the largest driver of turning on the most successful decks. As SnT rises so too will Grixis Pyro decks; expect legacy to get more blue as a fxn of Probe/SnT vs Probe/Cabal. Should be a fun creative space for legacy as decks are forced more towards the mana floor and their quickest, meanest forms.

I'd be fine with a Probe ban. It's a retarded card (like all phyrexian mana cards), and it makes cabal therapy into a complete chimp card

[Hanni]

I'd be fine with a Probe ban. It's a retarded card (like all phyrexian mana cards), and it makes cabal therapy into a complete chimp card

I really hope the banning of Sensei’s Divining Top does not snowball into more bannings. The power level of the cards in Legacy, from DRS to Probe to Show and Tell to you name it, is what makes this format so great. If I wanted to play shittier cards, I'd go play Modern.

[Dice_Box]

I don't think banning cards can even be a valid topic for at lest 6 months. Taking out a major card from Miracles would have had a large enough effect to cause waves to start with. Nuking the whole deck leaves the whole format in the air. We need to see the dust settle first before we do anything.

[Minniehajj]

I don't think banning cards can even be a valid topic for at lest 6 months. Taking out a major card from Miracles would have had a large enough effect to cause waves to start with. Nuking the whole deck leaves the whole format in the air. We need to see the dust settle first before we do anything.

Agreed. This is the wild west now. "Nothing is true, everything is permitted"

[Megadeus]

Not saying that Probe should be banned. Just saying I wouldn't care. It's restricted or banned in the other two formats for good reason.

[TsumiBand]

Probe isn't even all that broken, especially if you keep your opponent off Black and they never pay the kicker

[Chatto]

I don't think banning cards can even be a valid topic for at lest 6 months. Taking out a major card from Miracles would have had a large enough effect to cause waves to start with. Nuking the whole deck leaves the whole format in the air. We need to see the dust settle first before we do anything.

This.

It's been three days, THREE DAYS, and I'm still having a hang-over from celebrating... But seriously, ride the wave... See what happens, and just enjoy this moment... It's a whole new world out there, and we're here to explore it! Seriously, it's like being new to the format :-)

[Crimhead]

There are certainly control options but nothing that fits into the space miracles occupied.

RUG Lands will be a good deck, but we might continue to see more RGCL if enough combo decks need to be raced against.

Otherwise I suspect the format's control decks might be running more traditional creature-deck elements than Miracles did (D&T, Blade, BUG).

Tezzerator might make a splash, and it's also possible for a mono :u: B2B/Shackles deck to find a home.

We really don't know, which is delightfully exciting.

[Purple Blood]

The deck I was working on uses Lab Maniac as a win, which just seems better?



Rufus and I tried doing the math here (starting from post 9): http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31559-Shadow-of-the-Fluctuator
(http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31559-Shadow-of-the-Fluctuator)

That's some sweet math. Lab Maniac is probably the way to go. I will post my thoughts in the thread but I kind of echo some of the sentiments there where I think you'd rather have a bit more protection and set up and try to go off. I'd probably go with Chalice and FoW. For chalice you have to make some concessions e.g. playing Cabal Ritual over Songs of the Damned and Fabricate over E. Tutor.

[Scott]

The ten 5-0 decks in today's MTGO Competitive Legacy Constructed League (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2017-04-28):

U/W Control X2 (both are different)
Sneak & OmniShow X2
Aluren
Burn (no Harsh Mentor)
Dark Bant
Dark Naya Collected Company?
Grixis Tempo
UBr Reanimator

[supremePINEAPPLE]

That collected company list is awesome. I loved occasionally playing rabblemaster in the RG lands sideboard pre-tireless tracker, that card is so much fun.

[Scott]

It's pretty dumb to chart it after only a few days of 5-rounders, but I was in Excel doing a content analysis anyway, so here are the four days combined:

http://i.imgur.com/pkFYwSF.png

Combo: 19 of 33 decks
Has Brainstorm: 25 of 33 decks

[Hanni]

That falls right in line with what I was expecting the initial meta to look like, but I think that the heavy saturation of combo isn't going to last very long. Unlike Miracles, a combo heavy meta is easy to beat.

EDIT: Elves aside, what I find really interesting is the low amount of GBx Deathrite Shaman decks. Where is the ban Deathrite Shaman crowd at now?

[CptHaddock]

That falls right in line with what I was expecting the initial meta to look like, but I think that the heavy saturation of combo isn't going to last very long. Unlike Miracles, a combo heavy meta is easy to beat.

EDIT: Elves aside, what I find really interesting is the low amount of GBx Deathrite Shaman decks. Where is the ban Deathrite Shaman crowd at now?

I'm pretty sure in the 4-1 bracket which are the results that I would be more interested in seeing. The mtgo 5-0 publishing system is really weird, it seems like they don't publish ALL 5-0s in a given day only a select few so take that as you will.

[Hanni]

I'm pretty sure in the 4-1 bracket which are the results that I would be more interested in seeing. The mtgo 5-0 publishing system is really weird, it seems like they don't publish ALL 5-0s in a given day only a select few so take that as you will.

Fair enough.

[danyul]

I'm pretty sure in the 4-1 bracket which are the results that I would be more interested in seeing. The mtgo 5-0 publishing system is really weird, it seems like they don't publish ALL 5-0s in a given day only a select few so take that as you will.

Yeah I would keep this in mind when parsing data. Remember that hullabaloo awhile back where they said they didn't want to publish as much MTGO data? So formats don't get solved so fast? That + the fact that they don't publish *all* 5-0's makes me not really trust these published results. I feel like they just pick them randomly or even cherrypick the spicy lists that are fun to look at. If they just showed a bunch of Czech Pile lists then it might be a little boring to look at.

ALTERNATIVE FACTS!

[Sibelius]

Little bit of speculation in this article about how the new meta is shaping up

https://thelibraryatpendrellvale.com/back-to-basics/

Sib

[Lemnear]

Little bit of speculation in this article about how the new meta is shaping up

https://thelibraryatpendrellvale.com/back-to-basics/

Sib

No word on combo despite it being more than 35% of the current online metagame? Hmmm


It's pretty dumb to chart it after only a few days of 5-rounders, but I was in Excel doing a content analysis anyway, so here are the four days combined:

http://i.imgur.com/pkFYwSF.png

Combo: 19 of 33 decks
Has Brainstorm: 25 of 33 decks

I never thought I would ever again see various stormtypes listed seperately

[pow22]

For what it's worth, this is the meta that I've faced over five MODO leagues over the last couple of days:



ANT
4


Eldrazi
3


BUG Delver
3


UR Delver
2


Maverick
2


Stoneblade
2


RUG Delver
1


Burn
1


TES
1


Sneak and Show
1


BR Reanimator
1


UR Splinter Twin
1


Nic Fit (Sneak Attack)
1


UB Death's Shadow
1


Portent Miracles
1



Obviously a small sample size, but might provide some info on the actual meta rather than just the 5-0 meta.

Surprisingly no Elves or Grixis Delver. I've been on Grixis myself and had been hoping to get some use out of main-deck Forked Bolt dammit!

[Noctalor]

Little bit of speculation in this article about how the new meta is shaping up

https://thelibraryatpendrellvale.com/back-to-basics/

Sib

We want more from that "awesome guy" asking for a DRS ban to contain miracles :laugh:

[Claymore]

No word on combo despite it being more than 35% of the current online metagame? Hmmm


I think he just posted the decks he would play, and mentioned that he doesn't have the experience to play storm.

[Ronald Deuce]

We want more from that "awesome guy" asking for a DRS ban to contain miracles :laugh:

That will never get old.

[Sidneyious]

No word on combo despite it being more than 35% of the current online metagame? Hmmm



I never thought I would ever again see various stormtypes listed seperately
Combo got a boost because the boogie man got a ban.
It will settle once the midrangy decks pick back up.

Also wasn't drs a big 55% in a recent event?

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[Barook]

Combo got a boost because the boogie man got a ban.
It will settle once the midrangy decks pick back up.

Also wasn't drs a big 55% in a recent event?

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
Define recent. Because the numbers don't support that claim. We're somewhere in the 30-40% range, depending on what you look at.

[owerbart]

I'm just going to chime in and say that last saturday (first legacy weekly since the ban) the LGS i attend got packed, probably record attendance. Maybe the top ban will help in that aspect?

[Dice_Box]

I know it's early days still but this is the first big look we get. It's also good to see that BUG is not taking over.

http://series.magiccardmarket.eu/coverage-mkm-series-frankfurt-2017-legacy/#metagame-breakdown

[CptHaddock]

I know it's early days still but this is the first big look we get. It's also good to see that BUG is not taking over.

http://series.magiccardmarket.eu/coverage-mkm-series-frankfurt-2017-legacy/#metagame-breakdown

Lul 30 stoneblade, I thought that Tundra was an unplayable card now though guys?

[Scott]

I know it's early days still but this is the first big look we get. It's also good to see that BUG is not taking over.

http://series.magiccardmarket.eu/coverage-mkm-series-frankfurt-2017-legacy/#metagame-breakdown

Julian's in first after 6 rounds.

Edit: looks like there's a stream (twitch.tv/mtgoesterreich). Round 10

[Bobmans]

MKM Frankfurt top 8

Szegho, Dalibor
(Food Chain)

Knab, Julian
(Elves)

Wölfler, Walter
(Reanimator)

Bolland, Felix
(Aggro Loam)

Wilhelm, Christopher
(Stoneblade)

Gutbrod, Johannes
(Show and Tell)

Schubert, Mathias
(Grixis Delver)

Swiecki, Robert
(Storm)


Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G935F met Tapatalk

[Dice_Box]

I know one data point means nothing overall, but I really like that. It feels like a promising way to start this new chapter.

So, um... ban Deathrite?

[koten]

Wow, 8 different archetypes in the top 8!

[Gheizen64]

I know one data point means nothing overall, but I really like that. It feels like a promising way to start this new chapter.

So, um... ban Deathrite?

Ban Deathrite.

[Barook]

Top 8 decklists (http://series.magiccardmarket.eu/coverage-mkm-series-frankfurt-2017-legacy/#top8decks)

S&T took it down in the end.

[Tittliewinks22]

Top 8 decklists (http://series.magiccardmarket.eu/coverage-mkm-series-frankfurt-2017-legacy/#top8decks)

S&T took it down in the end.

16 abrupt decays in top 8.
0 coubterbalance.

[PirateKing]

16 abrupt decays in top 8.
0 coubterbalance.

Maybe in the scope of Legacy "Destroy target nonland permanent with converted mana cost 3 or less." is valuable regardless of it's ability to be countered or not.

Splashing green isn't a mandate anymore, but cutting green leaves you with Fatal Push and other removal that's cold to Liliana and Chalice of the Void. Just because you don't need it doesn't mean it's not good to have.

[Dice_Box]

16 abrupt decays in top 8.
0 coubterbalance.
20 Brainstorms, 66 fetches... What exactly does any of this prove?

[Crimhead]

20 Brainstorms, 66 fetches... What exactly does any of this prove?

I'm not sure he's trying to prove a conclusion.

But some of us are curious about AD's meta share post Miracles. Was the high density of AD driven by a need to answer Counter-Top, or simply by the versatile value the card offers in the format?

Obviously the meta has not settled and one event isn't much to go on anyway. Still, it's interesting to watch the data as it comes in.

[Dice_Box]

Decay will stay, the question on what happens to it is a foolish one. It answers everything from Delver to Bloodmoon. It's so versatile and in a format where Stack based control is seen as king, the ability to put it on the Stack and expect it to resolve is a boon. Decay is not going anywhere. Will it's numbers deminish? A little but I doubt noticeably until there is a good reason to do so.

Decay is the current formats version of Vindicate. It trades some of its effect for resilience. That's not something I would stop playing. Counterbalance was a target, but far from the only one.

[Crimhead]

I agree with you.

I do think some posters were making the claim that AD numbers were the direct result of Miracles forcing "every deck" to play it. I think like you and don expect a significant decline - except maybe among Storm or Reanimator decks that were trying to shoe-horn them in.

Still,I think there is an expectation that GBx might no longer be the fair-deck goto colours.
Remains to be seen.

[hovercraft]

106 "Others" seems like a lot, some of these must at least be similar to other archtypes? Like other Delver/Blade type decks at least. Would be cool to see it all grouped.

On Abrupt Decay, of course it will still be a very useful and versatile card, but I think Miracles being gone just allows you to not always need 4 in the 75 and you can feel less guilt about playing cards like Maelstrom Pulse, Toxic Deluge, Diabolic Edict, etc with other upsides in some of the Decay slots. I am leaning towards 2 AD maindeck in most BG decks I am playing now instead of 3 or 4.

[Scott]

30 more MTGO 5-0 lists were published:
1 (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2017-05-01), 2 (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2017-05-01-0), 3 (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2017-05-01-1)

Grixis Tempo X6 (2X Bone Picker in one of them)
ANT X2
Mono-Red Sneak Attack X2
R/G Lands X2
Sneak & Show X2
Aggro Loam
Belcher
Canadian Thresh
Czech Pile
Dark Depths
Eldrazi
Gobbos
Infect
Nic Fit
OmniTell
Pox
Team America
TES
U/R Delver
U/R Standstill
U/W Control

Also, it would be cool to know other top placing decks at yesterday's MKM tournament besides the top 8. Fill in archetypes if you know any.

9 Weiss, Johannes
10 Heerens, Daniel- Jund
11 Wibmer, Sebastian
12 Tobiasch, Marc- UB Reanimator
13 Meinung, Carl
14 Hastreiter, Simon
15 Landon, Eric
16 Mar, Tomas- Czech Pile
17 Arnal, Guillem Salvador
18 Rehmann, Daniel
19 Huschenbeth, Arne
20 Paluch, Markus
21 Bausch, Joshua
22 Tuitjer, Karsten
23 Hasenfratz, Felix
24 Maier, Daniel
25 De Brugiere, Remy
26 Benni, Gachstetter
27 Pelikan, Martin- BG HexDepths
28 Leopold, Jan- Leovold UBG
29 Storm, Bengt-Morten
30 Zens, Dennis
31 Heinrich, Jorg
32 Seegelken, Timo

[CptHaddock]

16 Mar, Tomas


Czech Pile

[hovercraft]

30 more MTGO 5-0 lists were published:
1 (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2017-05-01), 2 (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2017-05-01-0), 3 (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2017-05-01-1)

Grixis Tempo X6 (2X Bone Picker in one of them)
ANT X2
Mono-Red Sneak Attack X2
R/G Lands X2
Sneak & Show X2
Aggro Loam
Belcher
Canadian Thresh
Czech Pile
Dark Depths
Eldrazi
Gobbos
Infect
Nic Fit
OmniTell
Pox
Team America
TES
U/R Delver
U/R Standstill
U/W Control

Also, it would be cool to know other top placing decks at yesterday's MKM tournament besides the top 8. Fill in archetypes if you know any.

9 Weiss, Johannes
10 Heerens, Daniel
11 Wibmer, Sebastian
12 Tobiasch, Marc
13 Meinung, Carl
14 Hastreiter, Simon
15 Landon, Eric
16 Mar, Tomas
17 Arnal, Guillem Salvador
18 Rehmann, Daniel
19 Huschenbeth, Arne
20 Paluch, Markus
21 Bausch, Joshua
22 Tuitjer, Karsten
23 Hasenfratz, Felix
24 Maier, Daniel
25 De Brugiere, Remy
26 Benni, Gachstetter
27 Pelikan, Martin
28 Leopold, Jan
29 Storm, Bengt-Morten
30 Zens, Dennis
31 Heinrich, Jorg
32 Seegelken, Timo

Bone Picker is definitely interesting. If you cast him for B he's similar to a Delver really. I love the idea of using him Young Pyro and Cabal Therapy in the same shell.

[Skyl3lazer]

I want to live in a world that this is a top tier deck

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C-wtbxaXUAAYaJ6.jpg

[jandax]

Snic-fit is legit

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[square_two]

Snic-fit is legit

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

I've been seeing a few more random people pick it up lately. Was watching what looked like some inexperienced pilots stream it to 4-1 record on twitch last week, despite a fair amount of play mistakes.

[Sloshthedark]

10 Heerens, Daniel - Jund
12 Tobiasch, Marc - UB Reanimator
27 Pelikan, Martin - BG HexDepths
28 Leopold, Jan - Leovold UBG

[Julian23]

I got the decklists of ALL Legacy players in the MKM Frankfurt Legacy Main Event. Will post all Top32 lists to my website later this week.

[mistercakes]

Jam those decklists into a scanner!

[Dice_Box]

I got the decklists of ALL Legacy players in the MKM Frankfurt Legacy Main Event. Will post all Top32 lists to my website later this week.
Do you have the pairings? If you do, can I have both sets of data?

[Julian23]

I had talked to the scorekeeper about getting them in digital form. We have a system in place that will then provide all matchup%s.

[Dice_Box]

I had talked to the scorekeeper about getting them in digital form. We have a system in place that will then provide all matchup%s.
That's awesome. Is this going to happen for all the MKM events?

[TheRedMenace]

I've been seeing a few more random people pick it up lately. Was watching what looked like some inexperienced pilots stream it to 4-1 record on twitch last week, despite a fair amount of play mistakes.

Lol. Not that its much of an excuse but drinking was definitely occurring. Also, yeah. I'm still fairly new to the deck. Been running it on MTGO for a month but it's been really sweet especially given all these fair blue decks. I'm an Elves player at heart but this is a nice change of pace to try. We'll be back streaming on Wednesday hopefully playing a lot tighter but who knows. :) Thanks for watching!

[Jain_Mor]

I took part in an 8 Swiss round 137 player tournament in the U.K. hosted by "Axion" on Sunday. It was awesome and prize payout was good, (I got a revised volc for 10th place at 6-2), I'm going to ask the TO for deck lists or ask around on Facebook groups, I only know the decks that I played, and that isn't so useful..

[alastair]

I took part in an 8 Swiss round 137 player tournament in the U.K. hosted by "Axion" on Sunday. It was awesome and prize payout was good, (I got a revised volc for 10th place at 6-2), I'm going to ask the TO for deck lists or ask around on Facebook groups, I only know the decks that I played, and that isn't so useful..

Pendrill Vale have them, and I assume Tom will be doing a full breakdown. Top 8, NOT in order (as I don't know it)

Grixis Delver
Bug Delver
DnT
UWR Stoneblade
Eldrazi (won)
4c control
br reanimator
rug delver (quarter)

[Whitefaces]

Pendrill Vale have them, and I assume Tom will be doing a full breakdown. Top 8, NOT in order (as I don't know it)

Grixis Delver
Bug Delver
DnT
UWR Stoneblade
Eldrazi (won)
4c control
br reanimator
rug delver (quarter)

Yep, I have all the lists at the moment, passing them onto Tom a little later today. I'll get him to post the article in this thread when it's done.

1st - Eldrazi
2nd - 4c Control
3rd - Grixis Delver
4th - RUG Delver
5th - UWr Stoneblade
6th - BUG Delver
7th - DnT
8th - BR Reanimator

I think RUG beat UWR in the quarters? But I could be wrong, if so switch those two around.

[Jain_Mor]

Cool

I know 9th-16th in swiss was:

9th D&T
10th Junk
11th Infect
12th Burn (Disqualified for manipulating opponent's deck)
13th Grixis Delver
14th Bant Blade w/ Leovold
15th Show n Tell
16th Show n Tell

With show n tell beating junk in the "finals" of top 16 single elimination bracket for what it's worth, cool tournament format imo

[Whitefaces]

Cool

I know 9th-16th was:

9th D&T
10th Junk
11th Infect
12th Burn (Disqualified for manipulating opponent's deck)
13th Grixis Delver
14th Bant Blade w/ Leovold
15th Show n Tell
16th Show n Tell

Yeah, I 'flooded out' to that burn guy in round two :(

[Jain_Mor]

Yeah, I 'flooded out' to that burn guy in round two :(

well that's a pile of shite :/

[mistercakes]

crazy about that deck manipulator. how'd you guys catch him? was he doing the same technique as the SCG cheater?

[Whitefaces]

crazy about that deck manipulator. how'd you guys catch him? was he doing the same technique as the SCG cheater?

I'm not sure, I didn't catch him myself. I'm really bad at watching people how they're shuffling, a bit too trusting as I don't play at comp rel events very often.

I think he wasn't caught until after the Swiss. There were playoffs for 9th-16th and 17th-24th place to win prizes.

[Jain_Mor]

crazy about that deck manipulator. how'd you guys catch him? was he doing the same technique as the SCG cheater?

I was playing top 16 elimination at the time, all I know is a group of judges were discussing deck manipulation while standing at the end of the table. I beat my opponent (humble brags) and then played the show n tell guy the judges were standing around previously. He told me he beat his burn opponent 2-0 and at the end of the match judges disqualified the burn player for cheating which essentially meant nothing, he wasn't going to get prizes anyway because he just got knocked out by show n tell guy, and he can still play in the modern tournament the next day for some reason.

I don't know how the judge process works for that, but for the cheating I believe he was peaking while riffling through decks and pulling cards with the thumb to bottom of deck to manipulate opponent draws (i guess if you take non-land cards to bottom of deck a whole bunch then cut, suddenly there's a high concentration of non-land cards in the middle of the deck and therefore high density of lands at top and bottom)

[Nestalim]

Well you must be souless to play Burn, so cheating is kind of ok.

[Whitefaces]

Well you must be souless to play Burn, so cheating is kind of ok.

Can't argue with that.

[Scott]

3 more mid-sized post-Top tournaments, in addition to the two big tournaments we've been discussing:

80 players (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15402&f=LE):

1. Infect
2. Sneak & Show
3-4. Aluren
3-4. R/B Reanimator
5-8. Dark Bant
5-8. Team America
5-8. Elves
5-8. Infect

58 players (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15407&f=LE):

1. Death & Taxes
2. Eldrazi
3-4. Maverick
3-4. OmniTell
5-8. R/W Death & Taxes
5-8. Punishing Maverick
5-8. Sneak & Show
5-8. ANT

53 players (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15408&d=293777&f=LE):

1. BUG Leovold
2. Grixis Tempo
3-4. Eldrazi & Taxes
3-4. Grixis Tempo
5-8. ANT
5-8. Death & Taxes
5-8. Burning OmniTell
5-8. TES

This is looking pretty Wild West-y to me.

[slave]

I also believe Elves is going to become a DTB again; every deck is going to need a plan for beating Elves.
This.
Even before Top copping a ban, Elves was decent against most opponents.

For mine, BUG will likely be the one to beat, due to their flexibility to deal with most threats and white-ant their opposition with counter, discard and waste.
Doesn't seem to matter which deck I sleeve up, BUG is usually difficult...

[Zooligan]

3 more mid-sized post-Top tournaments, in addition to the two big tournaments we've been discussing:

80 players (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15402&f=LE):

1. Infect
2. Sneak & Show
3-4. Aluren
3-4. R/B Reanimator
5-8. Dark Bant
5-8. Team America
5-8. Elves
5-8. Infect

58 players (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15407&f=LE):

1. Death & Taxes
2. Eldrazi
3-4. Maverick
3-4. OmniTell
5-8. R/W Death & Taxes
5-8. Punishing Maverick
5-8. Sneak & Show
5-8. ANT

53 players (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15408&d=293777&f=LE):

1. BUG Leovold
2. Grixis Tempo
3-4. Eldrazi & Taxes
3-4. Grixis Tempo
5-8. ANT
5-8. Death & Taxes
5-8. Burning OmniTell
5-8. TES

This is looking pretty Wild West-y to me.

That was the whole point right? Open up the format so people could play whatever they want (except of course miracles/top). Now if they would just open up access to the format by eliminating the RL, or even just taking 10 little cards off the RL.

[Hanni]

That was the whole point right? Open up the format so people could play whatever they want (except of course miracles/top). Now if they would just open up access to the format by eliminating the RL, or even just taking 10 little cards off the RL.

The format is only wide open right now because people don't know which direction is up and which is down. It's going to take some time, but the meta will settle down and we will have some established DTB's. Even before Miracles, this has always been the case in Legacy.

[ironclad8690]

The format is only wide open right now because people don't know which direction is up and which is down. It's going to take sime time, but the meta will settle down and we will have some established DTB's. Even before Miracles, this has always been the case in Legacy.

The DTB's always seem to have a few niches. Here is my projection:

The grindy one: Czech/4c Control

The tempo deck: Grixis Delver

The spell-based combo: Sneak/Show, Storm, BR Reanimator

The creature based combo: Elves

And much to Dice's delight, I think Lands will make a comeback, but I am not sure given the strength of the spell based combo decks. I could see D&T being up there as well, but with Elves being so poor and a bunch of Kolaghan's Commands being played, I am not sure.

[Scott]

Julian has provided us with the deck lists (http://itsjulian.com/mkm-frankfurt-all-8-2-or-better-decklists-conversion-rates/) for 9th-23rd place finishers at the 437-player MKM Frankfurt tournament:

In addition to the top 8 already known, 9-23 had

Grixis Tempo X3
Bant Deathblade X2
Czech Pile X2
OmniSneak X2
4c Delver
Aluren
Jund
Red Eldrazi
Team America
U/B Reanimator

- - - - - - - - - -

I haven't seen it made official, but Arcanis had an 8-round tournament this weekend and the results were apparently:

1. U/R Delver
2. Grixis Tempo
3-4. Esper Delver
3-4. Infect
5-8. Food Chain
5-8. Infect
5-8. Infect
5-8. U/R Delver


- - - - - - - - - -

Obviously, MTGO results should be consumed with pebbles of salt because of things like publication choice and pairing system, but 30 (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2017-05-02) more (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2017-05-02-0) 5-0 (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2017-05-03) results were published and they are:

ANT X3
Czech Pile X3
Dragon Stompy X3
Grixis Tempo X3
U/R Delver X3
B/R Reanimator X2
Mono-Red Sneak Attack X2
Sneak & Show X2
Team America X2
Aggro Loam
Big Eldrazi
Dark Depths
Infect
Junk
R/G Lands
W/R Death & Taxes

[dog_koko]

- - - - - - - - - -

I haven't seen it made official, but Arcanis had an 8-round tournament this weekend and the results were apparently:

1. U/R Delver
2. Grixis Tempo
3-4. Esper Delver
3-4. Infect
5-8. Food Chain
5-8. Infect
5-8. Infect
5-8. U/R Delver


Actually the 8th was Burn

I was playing UR :cool:

[Fjaulnir]

With now exactly 2 weeks gone since the ban, these data can be pulled off mtgtop8, some things to notice:


-Deathrite did not become 60% of the meta, but only went up a few % to 35% right now.
-Maverick and Zoo did not really come back (yet)
-Eldrazi is falling even farther off the radar, becoming just another beatable random deck people play occasionally
-Control is not *completely* dead (and I'm assuming it should grow a bit more once people know what to control against)
-Show & Tell winter for now, apparently :tongue:


181 decks

Aggro
34 %
Grixis Delver 20 11 %
Death & Taxes 7 4 %
UR Delver 5 3 %
Infect 5 3 %
Dragon Stompy 4 2 %
Maverick 4 2 %
Eldrazi Aggro 4 2 %
Burn 3 2 %
Bant 2 1 %
Goblins 2 1 %
Zoo 1 1 %
Merfolk 1 1 %
Patriot Aggro 1 1 %
Pikula 1 1 %
Canadian Threshold 1 1 %
Other - Aggro 1 1 %

Control
22 %
BUG Midrange 9 5 %
Stoneblade 9 5 %
Lands 6 3 %
Loam 4 2 %
Grixis Control 3 2 %
BUG Control 3 2 %
Nic Fit 2 1 %
UWx Control 1 1 %
Threshold (Other) 1 1 %
Landstill 1 1 %
Pox 1 1 %

Combo
44 %
Show and Tell 23 13 %
Storm 19 10 %
Elves 9 5 %
Dark Depths 7 4 %
Reanimator 7 4 %
Mono Red Sneak Attack 3 2 %
Aluren 3 2 %
Food Griffin 3 2 %
Dredge 1 1 %
Cloudpost Ramp 1 1 %
Belcher 1 1 %
Other - Combo 2 1 %

[Scott]

Actually the 8th was Burn

I was playing UR :cool:

Congrats! And thanks for the correction.


With now exactly 2 weeks gone since the ban, these data can be pulled off mtgtop8, some things to notice:

I've been putting data together too. Unfortunately, as far as I know, mtgtop8 counts total appearances, so includes very small tournaments, doesn't differentiate between placings in tournaments of different size, and doesn't give extra points for top 8 wins. So, for every placing in 6 rounders and up after the ban, I used The Council's system (1 point for each round; 1 point for each win in the top 8; also counting top 16 decks if info. available). And I used The Source's system of a DTB being a deck with at least 4.6% of total points.

That includes MKM Frankfurt, Axion GPT, Arcanis, Valhalla's Gate, Spellhold GPT, Circuito, Olympus Roè Volciano, Duel for Duals, and Magic Master Series.
A few decks will get a few more points because I don't have the info on Axion's top 8 matches.

So, it's a short period of time and things are in flux, but your post-Top paper meta so far:
774 total points
35.6 points to be a DTB
DTBs: Grixis Tempo, Sneak & Show, Infect, Death & Taxes, Bant Deathblade, OmniTell, B/R Reanimator, more that are oh-so-close (including Elves and Czech Pile, with unorthodox rounding), and a large herd not far behind

Grixis Tempo: 88
Sneak & Show: 68
Infect: 57
Death & Taxes: 46
Bant Deathblade: 45
OmniTell: 39
B/R Reanimator: 36
Czech Pile: 35
Elves: 35
ANT: 34
Team America: 32
Eldrazi: 26
Food Chain: 19
Maverick: 19
Aluren: 18
Burn: 16
Esperblade: 15
U/R Delver: 11
4c Delver: 10
Aggro Loam: 10
Jund: 10
U/B Reanimator: 10
BUG Leovold: 9
Esper Delver: 9
UWR Control: 9
Junk: 8
Canadian Thresh: 8
UWr Stoneblade: 8
Dark Depths: 7
Eldrazi & Taxes: 7
TES: 7
Big Eldrazi: 6
Nic Fit: 6
Shardless BUG: 6
UWR Delver: 6

[Gheizen64]

I don't want to live in a world where SnT is the second most played legacy deck.

[Whitefaces]

Thanks for all the work Scott, appreciate it!

[NeckBird]

Congrats! And thanks for the correction.



I've been putting data together too. Unfortunately, as far as I know, mtgtop8 counts total appearances, so includes very small tournaments, doesn't differentiate between placings in tournaments of different size, and doesn't give extra points for top 8 wins. So, for every placing in 6 rounders and up after the ban, I used The Council's system (1 point for each round; 1 point for each win in the top 8; also counting top 16 decks if info. available). And I used The Source's system of a DTB being a deck with at least 4.6% of total points.

That includes MKM Frankfurt, Axion GPT, Arcanis, Valhalla's Gate, Spellhold GPT, Circuito, Olympus Roè Volciano, Duel for Duals, and Magic Master Series.
A few decks will get a few more points because I don't have the info on Axion's top 8 matches.

So, it's a short period of time and things are in flux, but your post-Top paper meta so far:
774 total points
35.6 points to be a DTB
DTBs: Grixis Tempo, Sneak & Show, Infect, Death & Taxes, Bant Deathblade, OmniTell, B/R Reanimator, more that are oh-so-close (including Elves and Czech Pile, with unorthodox rounding), and a large herd not far behind

Grixis Tempo: 88
Sneak & Show: 68
Infect: 57
Death & Taxes: 46
Bant Deathblade: 45
OmniTell: 39
B/R Reanimator: 36
Czech Pile: 35
Elves: 35
ANT: 34
Team America: 32
Eldrazi: 26
Food Chain: 19
Maverick: 19
Aluren: 18
Burn: 16
Esperblade: 15
U/R Delver: 11
4c Delver: 10
Aggro Loam: 10
Jund: 10
U/B Reanimator: 10
BUG Leovold: 9
Esper Delver: 9
UWR Control: 9
Junk: 8
Canadian Thresh: 8
UWr Stoneblade: 8
Dark Depths: 7
Eldrazi & Taxes: 7
TES: 7
Big Eldrazi: 6
Nic Fit: 6
Shardless BUG: 6
UWR Delver: 6

https://www.axionnow.co.uk/Articles/View/46

Axion's top 8 was:

1st Eldrazi
2nd Czech Pile
3rd Grixis Delver
4th RUG Delver
5th BR Reanimator
6th Death & Taxes
7th BUG Delver
8th Jeskai Stoneblade

Someone in tournament report mentioned 9th-16th also has a single elimination bracket for extra prizes:

9th Sneak & Show
10th Junk Midrange

[Scott]

Thanks for all the work Scott, appreciate it!

Any time!


Axion's top 8 was:

...

Someone in tournament report mentioned 9th-16th also has a single elimination bracket for extra prizes:

Thanks for the link; that confirms it, so I can add the points for top 8 wins.

I gave 9th-16th 8 points for placing in an 8-rounder, but no extra, because I'm pretty sure that's what TCD does.

Which meeeans

781 total points
35.9 cutoff
DTBs: Grixis Tempo, Sneak & Show, Infect, Death & Taxes, Bant Deathblade, OmniTell, B/R Reanimator, + Czech Pile moves in :tongue:

Grixis Tempo: 89
Sneak & Show: 68
Infect: 57
Death & Taxes: 46
Bant Deathblade: 45
OmniTell: 39
Czech Pile: 37
B/R Reanimator: 36
Elves: 35
ANT: 34
Team America: 32
Eldrazi: 29
Food Chain: 19
Maverick: 19
Aluren: 18
Burn: 16
Esperblade: 15
U/R Delver: 11
4c Delver: 10
Aggro Loam: 10
Jund: 10
U/B Reanimator: 10
BUG Leovold: 9
Canadian Thresh: 9
Esper Delver: 9
UWR Control: 9
Junk: 8
UWr Stoneblade: 8
Dark Depths: 7
Eldrazi & Taxes: 7
TES: 7
Big Eldrazi: 6
Nic Fit: 6
Shardless BUG: 6
UWR Delver: 6

[Dice_Box]

Just a heads up. Next month Miracles will still be a DTB in the next update. It was legal for enough of the month to earn a victory lap but it will be moved out anyway. The rest of the update will be an odd mix of the dying Meta and the flux the ban created. The embers of the old.

The current data I would not bet on. I have watched Lands be a DTB for almost all of the month only to get pushed out just before posting. That said, I feel it is extremely likely that SnT is both in for next month and here to stay. I also suspect I will be playing Metalworker, Ensnaring Bridge, 3ball and Smokestack while it is.

[Quasim0ff]

i only play online, and the format is fucking god damn awful.

Anyone who disagree, who play online, are a fucking idiot and need to shut the fuck up.

[Echelon]

i only play online, and the format is fucking god damn awful.

Anyone who disagree, who play online, are a fucking idiot and need to shut the fuck up.

I don't play online. Please do explain, I'm honestly interested.

[Zombie]

I don't play online. Please do explain, I'm honestly interested.

I'm guessing it's full of Griseltards.

[Echelon]

I'm guessing it's full of Griseltards.

All while people call for a ban of Deathrite? Interesting. People rather play vs. T1 Petal, Tomb, S&T -> Emrakul than vs. T1 Land, DRS, go..? And somehow T1 Land, Delver, go is fine..?

I'd rather see T1 Land, anyCreature, go than T1 S&T, but that might just be me.

[UseLess]

Anyone who disagree ... are a fucking idiot and need to shut the fuck up.

Thank you for describing a large part of humanity so eloquently. I suppose this statement has nothing to do with the fact that your one (paper?) deck got severely nerfed? You must be really short-sighted or extremely upset to make this statement. I cannot possibly imagine any sort of meta that would be so different online from paper that nobody would enjoy, be it SnT, other combo and/or Eldrazi infested as it may be. So please, enlighten us.

[JDK]

I don't want to live in a world where SnT is the second most played legacy deck.
*Most played

[Quasim0ff]

Thank you for describing a large part of humanity so eloquently. I suppose this statement has nothing to do with the fact that your one (paper?) deck got severely nerfed? You must be really short-sighted or extremely upset to make this statement. I cannot possibly imagine any sort of meta that would be so different online from paper that nobody would enjoy, be it SnT, other combo and/or Eldrazi infested as it may be. So please, enlighten us.

No, miracles was way too good. It is pretty clear, from looking at how the metagame turned out online, that miracles was, on some capacity, needed, as the legacy metagame online is basically modern with an larger card pool.

The most played decks are Show and Tell, ANT, BR Reanimator and various chalice stompy decks.

You want to do your busted thing ASAP, and make the game about as little interaction as possible.

*Also, I sold miracles in paper last november.

[s&s]

I don't want to live in a world where SnT is the second most played legacy deck.

can i have ur cardboard and pixels pls

[Smuggo]

i only play online

Think I found your problem...

[Ingo]

The most played decks are Show and Tell, ANT, BR Reanimator and various chalice stompy decks.

You want to do your busted thing ASAP, and make the game about as little interaction as possible.


You realise Countertop was an equally busted ASAP thing? Miracles was hardly a hedge against these decks, but rather part of the same non-interactive problem.

[Fox]

No, miracles was way too good. It is pretty clear, from looking at how the metagame turned out online, that miracles was, on some capacity, needed, as the legacy metagame online is basically modern with an larger card pool.

The most played decks are Show and Tell, ANT, BR Reanimator and various chalice stompy decks.

You want to do your busted thing ASAP, and make the game about as little interaction as possible.
It really depends on the matchup, but there's also been a noticeable increase in kill spells among fair decks and those cards often have no text against a combo deck. It went from DRS/Decay/Discard to a mixture of DRS+SCM/Push/Bolt/K-Com/Decay (much fewer of these now). If your deck is going around with that much removal, you're going to have suspect ability to interact with combo [less discard, fewer FoW pitch cards, generally more questionable mana vs turbo Moon decks].

Miracles had two unhealthy effects: it made all Standstill and Blade variants unplayable (in the sense that miracles has more free wins and higher win %age), but most importantly basically everyone had to play Decay (or an uninteractive like CB, Vial, Cavern, Boseju, Chalice) - and this is no longer the case. Even if fair decks want to run all this removal, there's actually way more cards out there which can also have text vs combo, and honestly all that turbo Moon/Chalice stuff might eventually deter them from a hyper-efficient removal color and into using different cards that also have text vs the unfair.

We're kind of in a silly period where fair decks are going nuts with Terror-esque spam instead of asking themselves "what is the meta, and how should I build my deck." I think people will eventually start asking the right questions like: how's my Git. Probe matchup (SnT, Storm, Grixis Pyro), can I beat Elves, what am I doing vs Chalice/Stompy, and does everything done up to this point still have a reasonable Blade control matchup.

[Gheizen64]

If only instead of sdt we banned another card... One that pushed all T1 decks equally instead of just killing the top control deck of the format...

Of course this is probably a temporary meta but damn id this SnT shitshow persist...