[Article] Deathrite Is Next

[Griselpuff]

https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/deathrite-is-next/

So hypothetically, if the little green guy hits 50% of the meta, but it's not one deck. How would you guys feel?

I don't think it's inconsistent to leave Brainstorm (70%) and ban Deathrite because Brainstorm enables far more strategic diversity, whereas Deathrite makes games revolve around him, and he's just plainly too undercosted.

[btm10]

I'd like to see how the meta shakes out before I make a decision about this. Your points are totally reasonable, but I can imagine a situation where Lands and Reanimator are only held in check by Deathrite or running Vintage-esque levels of Graveyard hate, and then a ban becomes much less likely unless they're ok with knock-on bans.

[Julian23]

I'm on record saying that I wouldn't mind seeing DRS banned. However I just commissed my new logo and I have plans for it to include DRS :eek:

[H]

I mean, that is plausible, but I don't think this is a deterministic outcome of the Top ban.

Deathrite is really good. In fact, he is extremely good. Remember when people realized how good Tarmogoyf was? People were putting it in every deck. I think this is another case of that. People were even discussing banning Tarmogoyf at a point. I think we can look back at that and realize it was a bit silly.

Now, Deathrite is better than 'Goyf, sure, but I think the same principles apply. It's a creature, it doesn't have some crazy protection or anything. I think the format will adjust, more 'yard hate in the form of more Rest In Peace and other effective coutermeasures (Phyrexian Rovoker, etc.) will pick up as well. Things will sort themselves out. Decks that can prey on BUG decks, like Death and Taxes, UR Burn, and so on will pick up and Deathrite (while good in these matchups) won't really save them there. People will realize there are reasons not to run him and we'll find an equilibrium.

It'll take some time, but I am not buying the doom and gloom.

[Dice_Box]

It really wouldn't shock me if DRS took a bullet, but I would hard pressed to call anything right now. The meta is about to shift and shift big. I am not sure this is the moment when such predictions are truly able to be made.

At this point I think it's prudent to let the chips fall, then make calls on what we see.

[Crimhead]

The banned SDT, not Brainstorm.

Seems like - as has always been the case - they react to powerful decks, not powerful but versatile cards. Even with Treasure Cruise the sited reason was Patriot Delver (though more accurately should have been sited as a conglomerate of Patriot plus U/R Delver).

I can't see BUG decks being so abundant (and Jund or Maverick will not even be tier-one). Too many things to eat them.

I suppose it depends on how much of the Top decision was data based vs public outcry based. If they are listening to the angry mob, anything could happen.

[Dice_Box]

I suppose it depends on how much of the Top decision was data based vs public outcry based. If they are listening to the angry mob, anything could happen.Let's be bluntly honest, Wizards is not listening to anyone but a balding man who use to work for them. Outside of that I don't think they really do. If they listened to us (As a whole) something would have happened long ago and there would be at lest three less cards on the list.

Saying "We hear you" after not doing anything for years is PR spin. The truth is likely closer to "Ok so the data for the last 6 GPs was highly slanted in one direction... And hey, something about online communities complaints, even though we haven't paid attention to that outside of the VSL..." It's fine that that's what got them to act, but they could at lest be honest about it and say: "We know you have all been asking for some changes for years, but Randy doesn't play your format, so shut up and sit in the corner."

[s&s]

DRS is first and foremost a mana dork.

Sure it does other things, but the decks listed in that article could replace them with hierarchs or birds without losing a significant amount of power.

The alternatives for SDT are far worse then the ones for DRS, can't really compare it. Unsure why anyone would say "DRS ties decks together" when it can be replaced by at least 2 cards while keeping the decks in great shape.

Mana dorks will always be popular for obvious reasons, DRS is the best generic manadork, hence its popularity. It isn't always the best dork for a specific deck though (infect), so the balance is probably fine. Its not part of any fancy 2-card combo, it just gets used for what most people like to have, mana.

[Mr Miagi]

DRS before Brainstorm? Article writers with their own agendas or just some generally acceptable Brainstorm bias?

As people have pointed out several times Brainstorm has far better numbers than DRS and for far longer time.

For the record, I'm not saying both are not stupid good and yes to a degree an autoinclude and I wouldn't shed a tier if both of them got the axe, but I'm not amused why people (in general, not only the author of this rather short article) are already calling for DRS ban while allowing all blue decks dominance due to Brainstorm.
I don't want this to derail into yet another Brainstorm thread, but I don't see articles and statements like this ("DRS is next") to be doing any good to Legacy either so.. you know, try to think with your own brains first before buying into sensationalism "DRS is next". I'm expecting next article to be titled "Only 1% of players know this secret". :wink:

[Megadeus]

DRS is first and foremost a mana dork.

Sure it does other things, but the decks listed in that article could replace them with hierarchs or birds without losing a significant amount of power.

The alternatives for SDT are far worse then the ones for DRS, can't really compare it. Unsure why anyone would say "DRS ties decks together" when it can be replaced by at least 2 cards while keeping the decks in great shape.

Mana dorks will always be popular for obvious reasons, DRS is the best generic manadork, hence its popularity. It isn't always the best dork for a specific deck though (infect), so the balance is probably fine. Its not part of any fancy 2-card combo, it just gets used for what most people like to have, mana.

I think you vastly underrate the subtle power of Deathrite. Being cast off of an underground sea is just the first way that it is far better because you don't have to run a pile of forests to cast your mana dorks

[Claymore]

I don't see the alarmism about a gattling gun of bannings about to be unleashed on Legacy, like they did with Modern. If you don't count the broken Treasure Cruise and DTT, Top is the first serious ban since what, Survival? And Survival only really came to sudden power with the release of Vengevine if I'm not mistaken, so that was a reactive banning as well within months. I'm not fully informed on that so if I'm mistaken please correct. Past that...?

Top got it's broken counterpart in Terminus and began dominating the format since 2012. Undisputed #1 deck by data for a solid year, maybe 2 years.

A single deck got Top banned because it had a warping stranglehold on the format and influenced Wizards design changes since 2012. I doubt DRS (or anything else except maybe, maybe Show and Tell) will be touched for a long, long time.

It's a 1/2 creature that's dependent on the graveyard. There's thousands of answers for that and several natural predators in the format - many of which just got unshackled because Miracles is gone.

[Julian23]

It's ok if some of you think pure numbers a certain card sees should be the deciding factor for whether something gets banned. But please have the maturity to acknowledge that not everyone shares your sentinment. I for example couldn't care less for numbers of a certain card if the meta itself was super diverse from a strategic point of view.

[Lemnear]

Sultai TNN is the next meta lord

4 DRS
4 Baleful
4 Tarmogoyf
4 TNN
3 Leovold
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Jace
4 FoW
3 Daze
2 Spell Pierce

some little modify and here is one of the next top 8 for the next 6 months

Kick out strix and Goyf to add thoughtseize & snapcaster. Thats my bet

[iatee]

DRS is first and foremost a mana dork.

Sure it does other things, but the decks listed in that article could replace them with hierarchs or birds without losing a significant amount of power.

The alternatives for SDT are far worse then the ones for DRS, can't really compare it. Unsure why anyone would say "DRS ties decks together" when it can be replaced by at least 2 cards while keeping the decks in great shape.

Mana dorks will always be popular for obvious reasons, DRS is the best generic manadork, hence its popularity. It isn't always the best dork for a specific deck though (infect), so the balance is probably fine. Its not part of any fancy 2-card combo, it just gets used for what most people like to have, mana.

DRS is a mana dork that esper and grixis decks get to play, which is nuts. If DRS is banned, Grixis Delver doesn't get to ramp. Delver players do not say 'hmm maybe we should play Birds of Paradise'. There would still be a few decks that ramp but it would slow down the format a lot. Right now decks that *aren't* base-green and aren't even designed to need a t1 ramp play get to have one anyway, because, why not, card is all upside.

[Maximus]

I don't think DRS is going anywhere. It's really strong but so is the rest of the format and it has to compete with the likes of LED or Entomb or Narcomoeba or Show and Tell. If anything it fits right in by promoting more interactive strategies at a similar power level. It's also much, much more negotiable than Top ever was, which has like 4 cards that are okay against it and you never wanted to maindeck any of them. And look how long than ban took. In particular, I'm not even sure DRS is better than Delver or Goyf going forward- killing your opponent quickly seems REALLY underrated by the strongest DRS advocates. Maybe it's from 3 years of PTSD from Terminus.

[Crimhead]

Let's be bluntly honest, Wizards is not listening to anyone but a balding man who use to work for them.

But to whom does he listen?

Was ArFo watching stats, or watching memes?

[Tormod]

Borderline click bait

[rlesko]

I think you vastly underrate the subtle power of Deathrite. Being cast off of an underground sea is just the first way that it is far better because you don't have to run a pile of forests to cast your mana dorks

I've been bitching about DRS for this exact reason.

[tescrin]

We'll see? I could be happy either way. DRS gets the axe someday? Hierarch's value explodes and Goose becomes a thing again.
Doesn't? Well I get to play a mana-dork + maindeck grave-hate in BUx.

[Richard Cheese]

Eh, the format will probably see more creatures overall, meaning more targeted removal. Not that every deck won't still run 4x of the little bastard, but it's also not something you'll necessarily be building your deck just to beat.

[ramanujan]

Put me in the "Nope" opinion.

Creatures, which are so darn vulnerable, are very rarely the subject of bans in Legacy. DRS is great, but I think it is way down the list of cards that could get banned.

Specifically, I would put the following 12 cards ahead of DRS.

Brainstorm
Ponder
Fetchlands

[hymnyou]

Hope the community flips to trying to release prisoners rather than witch hunting. It's seems a little premature to start pointing fingers.
Really it's a load of f'ing crap that Mindtwist/Earthcraft/Goblin Recruiter - any or all of them, didnt get released.

[UnderwaterGuy]

Hope the community flips to trying to release prisoners rather than witch hunting. It's seems a little premature to start pointing fingers.
Really it's a load of f'ing crap that Mindtwist/Earthcraft/Goblin Recruiter - any or all of them, didnt get released.

I'm for this. Instead of killing Miracles it would have been great to just give other decks some of those very powerful spells. Give the non-blue players their banned cards back (and then maybe give blue players Mana Drain please)

[Noctalor]

I'm for this. Instead of killing Miracles it would have been great to just give other decks some of those very powerful spells. Give the non-blue players their banned cards back (and then maybe give blue players Mana Drain please)

None of those spells could have done much.

Legacy is the format of card selection, miracle was the king of card selection.
The only way to brute force a less cantrippy deck into the meta is to give it something actually insane, we are talking about desire/bargain level, not a 1/2 that moves the stack of creatures you already had on the bottom of your library back on top.

Still with no miracles around I doubt that the good old sick cards will see the light again, "bad ones" will but recruiter could be too good for example, we just have no idea what is going to happen, we havent played this game for 5 years.

[lavafrogg]

I have to disagree, DRS is a creature and is infinitely more interactive than top+balance, it also doesn't protect itself and hide from removal.

At the end of the day he is just a really good one drop that is dependent on the graveyard, not ban worthy in legacy.

[hymnyou]

None of those spells could have done much.


Right, they all suck- but it's weak that they didn't release any prisoners of war in exchange for the formats Lieutenant Commander, since they are all basically Cadets and Officers in Legacy's current state. Before going after another, I think at least 3 soldiers should be released back to the camps. If it wouldn't do anything, then just do it.

[Noctalor]

Right, they all suck- but it's weak that they didn't release any prisoners of war in exchange for the formats Lieutenant Commander, since they are all basically Cadets and Officers in Legacy's current state. Before going after another, I think at least 3 soldiers should be released back to the camps. If it wouldn't do anything, then just do it.

Surely it would be fun, but we already have the biggest meta shake since delve/survival, maybe it's not the right time to throw more toys around, we already have plenty of "new" old stuff to play with.

[Purple Blood]

I really like the idea of an official "Watch List". I'm sure most of us will be able to guess 80% of the list without knowing it but extra communication on these things can only be a good thing.

Interesting to see that Huang thinks Chalice decks will suffer. If there's a rise in Delver and other mid-range decks one would assume that Chalice / Bloodmoon is would be nice to combat those decks.

[wcm8]

I agree with others who've compared DRS to Brainstorm. True, it's ubiquitous in decks that play Black/Green and have a creature-centric strategy, but it enables multiple types of strategies, even if there is a fair amount of overlap in terms of card selection. For example, BUG Delver and BUG Cascade share a LOT of card choices, but the two decks play out differently and have a not-irrelevant number of different strengths and weaknesses. And obviously they're significantly different from Deathblade, Elves, Jund, etc.

DRS increases meaningful interaction, especially against obnoxious graveyard decks that otherwise would require a ton of sideboard space. So it also functions as a sort of pre-emptive measure against potentially broken strategies.

Like Brainstorm, DRS would be ban-worthy if the justification was based on concentration %. But the two cards are likely to be safe from the banhammer because they are played in different sorts of decks. At this point, DRS is kind of like a pillar of the format, along the same lines like cards such as Brainstorm, Force of Will, Daze, Wasteland, and Ponder.

SDT was played in more decks besides UWr Miracles, but none of those decks were arguably Tier 0/1 strategies or dominated tournaments for multiple years.

I think rather than banning DRS, they should design another 1-mana creature that's similarly powerful but instead of being :bg:, it could perhaps be :wr:.

[Lormador]

Surely it would be fun, but we already have the biggest meta shake since delve/survival, maybe it's not the right time to throw more toys around, we already have plenty of "new" old stuff to play with.

Oh come on, don't you want to see somebody putting Mind Twist into a Maverick deck and fueling it with Gaea's Cradle? Let Timmy have some fun!

[tescrin]

To be honest, i just was hoping to see Mind Twist unbanned, SDT being banned was like a chair-flipping "whoa" moment.


I think the other bit about DRS that makes him ubiquitous is that he suppresses grave-based cards, which are basically "too good." Delve, Goose, Loam, Reanimator, Dredge, etc..

They all survive the format with him in it, but they are nerfed a bit; while he is also vulnerable to grave hate himself. Getting him RiP'd is pretty bad F.E. And he is normally next to Gurmag, Goyf, recursion, or other grave-cards. I've lost plenty of midrange games to D&T players who spam RiPs just because it doubles as mana disruption when your deck is reliant on a grave-based manafixer.

I think it's weird they gave mono-black a true mana-dork at a good price, but the fact he hates on grave-strats is probably a net boon to the format.

Though, while he's in basically every deck I make, I don't care which way he goes. I think the article is just flame-bait and a "You're not my dad!" lashing out at reality where the writer believes he'll get back at the legacy community by triggering DRS-players. Good luck doing that.

[Brael]

I think rather than banning DRS, they should design another 1-mana creature that's similarly powerful but instead of being :bg:, it could perhaps be :wr:.

I don't think this would do anything. The main reason people throw DRS in decks is because it's a good 4c mana fixer. He makes it easy to make weak manabases that are held together by the card. If DRS were WR, they would still do the exact same thing, playing Esper+X except instead of green to activate the lifegain, they would splash red to activate the damage. It would essentially still be the same deck.

The sequence would be:
T1 - Fetch, Tundra, WRS

T2 - Brainstorm, Fetch, tap for mana, Badlands, Baleful Strix

or

T2 - Wasteland (blow something up), Tundra, tap for mana, Baleful Strix

Honestly though, DRS does good things for the format. As much as I dislike the ridiculous decks like Czech Pile which are just poorly made piles of good cards, tied together by a strong manadork it's a very good thing for the format to have MB'able hate for the graveyard that's available to practically everything.

[Purple Blood]

I don't think this would do anything. The main reason people throw DRS in decks is because it's a good 4c mana fixer. He makes it easy to make weak manabases that are held together by the card. If DRS were WR, they would still do the exact same thing, playing Esper+X except instead of green to activate the lifegain, they would splash red to activate the damage. It would essentially still be the same deck.

The sequence would be:
T1 - Fetch, Tundra, WRS

T2 - Brainstorm, Fetch, tap for mana, Badlands, Baleful Strix

or

T2 - Wasteland (blow something up), Tundra, tap for mana, Baleful Strix

Honestly though, DRS does good things for the format. As much as I dislike the ridiculous decks like Czech Pile which are just poorly made piles of good cards, tied together by a strong manadork it's a very good thing for the format to have MB'able hate for the graveyard that's available to practically everything.

It wouldn't have to fix mana. Something like this would be cool:

Boros Wizard (R/W) 1/2

(T) deal one damage to a creature/player or (and?) prevent one damage to a creature/player
(R) (T) exile an instant or sorcery card in GY draw a card then discard a card
(W) (T) exile a creature or land card in GY tap target nonland permanent (or maybe just a creature if that's too strong; or alternatively, target creature cannot attack or block this turn)

---

I really wish they made this card :laugh: it's kind of busted (so is DRS) but it helps R/W be more viable.

[wizard_of_gore]

I think rather than banning DRS, they should design another 1-mana creature that's similarly powerful but instead of being :bg:, it could perhaps be :wr:.

Figure of destiny!!!!:eek:

[Megadeus]

It wouldn't have to fix mana. Something like this would be cool:

Boros Wizard (R/W) 1/2

(T) deal one damage to a creature/player or (and?) prevent one damage to a creature/player
(R) (T) exile an instant or sorcery card in GY draw a card then discard a card
(W) (T) exile a creature or land card in GY tap target nonland permanent (or maybe just a creature if that's too strong; or alternatively, target creature cannot attack or block this turn)

---

I really wish they made this card :laugh: it's kind of busted (so is DRS) but it helps R/W be more viable.

A Legacy playable tapper would be sick as fuck. I mean I've tried out the Thornscape Apprentice in Maverick who is pretty sick as a Green Sun target, especially against Show and Tell. But I mean with all of those apprentice style cards none of them are actually playable. I think the key to Deathrite is that unless there's something like RIP out, he's always live. Ramping early, killing late. You need a card in that similar vein.

[Purple Blood]

A Legacy playable tapper would be sick as fuck. I mean I've tried out the Thornscape Apprentice in Maverick who is pretty sick as a Green Sun target, especially against Show and Tell. But I mean with all of those apprentice style cards none of them are actually playable. I think the key to Deathrite is that unless there's something like RIP out, he's always live. Ramping early, killing late. You need a card in that similar vein.

This guy would be a bit different and I tried to make it always relevant. The red ability can filter cards (and feeds himself). The white ability can be used offensively and defensively. And then the colorless ability is universally applicable and can be used offensively or defensively. Then again, Merfolk Looter meets Grim Lavamancer meets Thornscape Apprentice might be a bit too good.

It would be pretty cool for the meta if red/white was viable in the same vein as green/black.

[Emurian]

I don't see a DRS ban happen.

As noted by others, there are tons of ways to get rid of the creature, unlike top, which could protect itself by an activation and putting it on top of your deck. Artefact hate is also rarer then generic creature removal in the format.

The best way to tackle SDT was along the lines of Phyrexian Revoker [Which basicly only DnT wields] Pithing Needle [Relatively common SB card] or Null Rod.

DRS can be removed, or people go for the GY [RIP, Leyline of the Void] Most shells thats run DRS also run Goyf, Anglers next to them.

DRS can be ''countered'' by your own DRS. Granted, the one that has the DRS online first has an advantage, but it basicly turns into a stall: Im waiting for you to activate your DRS first so I can activate mine in response. (exception Elves in combination with Quirion Ranger tricks)

I don't find DRS broken, its just a VERY good magic card. There are plenty of other cards which I rather see go before DRS [Show and Tell grr)
I actually applaud the designer of DRS, they should give the dude another shot at designing more cards in different colours which are roughly at the same power level of DRS.

[Lord Seth]

DRS is first and foremost a mana dork.

Sure it does other things, but the decks listed in that article could replace them with hierarchs or birds without losing a significant amount of power.Lolno. How easily did decks replace Deathrite Shaman with those cards in Modern when it was banned?

Saying you can replace Deathrite Shaman with Hierarchs or Birds is as goofy as saying that you can replace Green Sun's Zenith with Hierarchs or Birds.

[Brael]

Lolno. How easily did decks replace Deathrite Shaman with those cards in Modern when it was banned?

Saying you can replace Deathrite Shaman with Hierarchs or Birds is as goofy as saying that you can replace Green Sun's Zenith with Hierarchs or Birds.

The big one that I remember was Pod because I played it at the time. It was a straight swap, and the only real casualty was that the deck became 3 colors rather than splashing a fourth.

Jund however dropped mana acceleration entirely and went back to 3 colors rather than 4.

Overall I think that's the only real drawback of DRS, it's great as hate and acceleration. Pushing decks 4c is the one bad consequence.

[Zirath]

I think that the thing that's being overlooked here is the fact that Wizards (and more likely Hasbro since I'm guessing that sign showing up on social media was not something they were thrilled about) gave in to terrorism. There was a better ban to make in Counterbalance that didn't create a cascade effect in the short term. Despite that, the ban still opens up the possibility that if people make a spectacle of the situation, Wizards will feel compelled to make a move. This is a horrible precedent to set since it denies a conversation in the format's growth, which is how we end up with a format like Extended.

This ban was not based on and future bans will likely not be based on format health or what's fun. It's based on social pressure.

[Megadeus]

The difference in modern is that Green is one of the best colors in the format, so it is much easier for a straight swap into other mana dorks because the rest of your deck was probably also heavily green. In legacy green is fine, but you can't straight swap deathrite for birds or noble into Shardless or Grixis or really any of the decks it's currently in besides elves and maverick. Deathrite being cast off black mana is, of all the things the card does, actually maybe the most insane. I mean I ran it in dead guy with only 1 green source (bayou) and it was amazing there. The hybrid cast cost might actually be the dumbest part of the card.

[MorphBerlin]

While I agree that DRS is probably one of the most powerful cards now I don't know if all people understand the consequences in mind. It will exclusivly hit fair decks, that lose a big tool to keep up with the unfair stuff because of the provided mana acceleraio, as well a loosing the Maindeckable way to include GY Hate. I asume decks like Reanimator, Loam (Agrro+Lands), Storm would run wild then, because fair decks lose a major form of interaction.

I don't know if the format needs to become even more unfair after the fun police in form of Miracles is gone.

[Nestalim]

While I agree that DRS is probably one of the most powerful cards now I don't know if all people understand the consequences in mind. It will exclusivly hit fair decks, that lose a big tool to keep up with the unfair stuff because of the provided mana acceleraio, as well a loosing the Maindeckable way to include GY Hate. I asume decks like Reanimator, Loam (Agrro+Lands), Storm would run wild then, because fair decks lose a major form of interaction.

I don't know if the format needs to become even more unfair after the fun police in form of Miracles is gone.

DRS doesn't only prey on unfair decks, it is also strong agains't fair strategy like Gobelins or Tempo *****.

They are decks without deathrite which can prey on Reanimator or Storm, but you won't see them until Deathrite is out.

[Lemnear]

DRS doesn't only prey on unfair decks, it is also strong agains't fair strategy like Gobelins or Tempo *****.

They are decks without deathrite which can prey on Reanimator or Storm, but you won't see them until Deathrite is out.

You make it sound like a bad thing that there is a maindeckable hatebear to battle Reanimator, Storm, Dredge & Co.

On my scale DRS is a) as valuable for the format as Thalia to give creatures angles to interact with combo and b) flexible/powerful enought to act as a decks backbone like Ponder/Brainstorm

[hovercraft]

I still believe they should have made DRS only give G/B mana. He would still be amazing but wouldn't be so easily splashable to fix mana bases. Everything else about the card is pure Golgari but somehow he gives any coloured mana.

[JDK]

I want to see how the meta changes after the Top ban, but I do see DRS as overpowered, as others have already explained. Easily splashable, ramping, fixing, reaching, GY hating, life gaining and a 1/2 body. The worst part about him is, that he is as good in the lategame as he is in the early game and that he is permanently generating value - turn for turn. Not even Brainstorm does that. Every other 1-Drop in the format looks stupid against it, even Delver. Let alone Lavamancer, Mother of Runes etc.
The next few months will be very interesting to actually see, if he is too good for Legacy or not. He is the new king for sure though.

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

If you ban dts youre also going to have to ban bs for the same reason. Dont get carried away with bans, Unbans are a better way to change things up in the format

[talpa]

I do see DRS as overpowered [...]
Every other 1-Drop in the format looks stupid against it, even Delver. Let alone Lavamancer, Mother of Runes etc.


I fully agree with the first sentence, while it seems to me that the second one demonstrates the opposite: the are plenty of other overpowered one drop. Also delver, lavamancer and mother of runes seem pretty overpowered, each single one of them; aether vial for example is another one (and way more difficult to interact with since shaman at least is a creature that dies to every removal in the format).

[Lemnear]

If you ban dts youre also going to have to ban bs for the same reason.

ArFo presented two reasons for the SDT bsn and one of it being logistic ones. Where does Brainstorm create similar logistic issues like SDT did?

[Smuggo]

DRS is very powerful, but not overpowered, principally because it very easily dies to a wide range of removal that is commonplace in many archetypes.

By contrast, a resolved top was virtually impossible to get rid of.

[H]

ArFo presented two reasons for the SDT bsn and one of it being logistic ones. Where does Brainstorm create similar logistic issues like SDT did?

He wasn't talking about SDT, but Deathrite Shaman. No idea why he abbreviated it as DTS though...

[Sigar]

DRS is very powerful, but not overpowered, principally because it very easily dies to a wide range of removal that is commonplace in many archetypes.

By contrast, a resolved top was virtually impossible to get rid of.

Are you seriously comparing DRS and Top straight up? That's like comparing Tendrils of Agony and Natural Order..

DRS will take over the format now, and hopefully Wizards will react with a ban!

[Smuggo]

Are you seriously comparing DRS and Top straight up? That's like comparing Tendrils of Agony and Natural Order..

DRS will take over the format now, and hopefully Wizards will react with a ban!

I'm not comparing them directly, but I'm pointing out that DRS has answers, loads of them, wheras Top did not.

[Lemnear]

He wasn't talking about SDT, but Deathrite Shaman. No idea why he abbreviated it as DTS though...

Then ignore what I said. Got confused thinking of [D]ivining [T]op[S]

[JDK]

I fully agree with the first sentence, while it seems to me that the second one demonstrates the opposite: the are plenty of other overpowered one drop. Also delver, lavamancer and mother of runes seem pretty overpowered, each single one of them; aether vial for example is another one (and way more difficult to interact with since shaman at least is a creature that dies to every removal in the format).
You think all of those 1-Drops are overpowered? Firstly, how do they even compare to DRS? Delver is probably the only 1-Drop coming close to DRS, although it lacks the extreme versatility. Secondly, a card like Lavamancer runs out of resources pretty easily and it doesn't block other 1 power creatures all day. Mother on it's own is completely useless. Again, those creatures lack versatility (or have "just" enough). To me, those are good design tradeoffs. But that's just my opinion. You have yours which you are entitled to, of course. ^^

[Ace/Homebrew]

No idea why he abbreviated it as DTS though...

Fat fingers.
QWERTY

[catmint]

Most guys posting here overestimate DRS power level quite a bit I think.

I played with him in Delver variants, BUG Midrange and Elves over the years.

Sure he has value against Storm, Reanimator and dredge, but it does not turn matchups around. These decks can play through/around it and are fast to just kill you if you go "manadork" - go.

His value against mana denial decks is there but Delver decks can just kill/daze it on sight which is a fair trade and DnT can lock it down with Revoker.

He is primarily mana acceleration which is fair because it is conditional - not having a land in GY for a 3 mana in turn 2 happens often enough.

He is strong because he has late game value which regular mana dorks don't But compared to a strong late game play on your opponents side he is mostly embarrassing. I know a very competent playgroup which cut him out of Stoneblade back then because he was "good" but not "good enough". Debateable decision of course but shows that he is not an "auto-4 of" as a splash if you are not BG.

Comparing to the other power 1 drops I feel:

Delver is MUCH stronger - How many people won games by playing delver and having their only land wasted but managed to protect their delver with 1 Force of Will... :) ... or you play Delver, Daze, Delver... Multiple DRS do not nearly offer the same incremental power compared to multiple Delver.

Delver was (semi) king before Miracles - and was still strong during miracles - so it is a fair assumption that if a 1 drop creature will be king - it won't be deathrite. ;)

Mother of Runes is hard to compare. But in the DnT mother is the best creature (? - never played the deck - but hated to play against mother sooo much)... the power level of MoR in D&T is arguably better than DRS in a BG deck.

Like any other creature which is viable in legacy DRS is overpowered in general :smile: ... but no problem in legacy standards. :wink:

About the format in general.

I don't think BG will be a problem at all.

1) BG has weaknesses against certain archetypes (killing fast in red, non basic hate, elves, DnT) so if there is a bit too much BG there is enough to keep it in check. The decks to keep it in check have again weaknesses against other decks. So hopefully there is a nice a "rock-paper-scissor" type of meta with a couple of Tier1 decks but also Tier2 deck on the top tables.

2) Stoneforge mystic should be a thing again. Lets see how deathrite battles against that jitte, skull, sword of X & Z in the late game. :)
Aside from SFM white in general offers the best removal spell and some premium SB options like Zealous Persecution and Rest in Peace which outperforms the options BG has....

3) ... especially because BG was mostly a requirement due to being able to Decay a Counterbalance. This is gone now - UWr, RUG, UR are all going to be viable I think.

[Spam]

No one can't deny the pressure DRS puts on the format, it will be silly to say otherwise.
Players did accept a lot of broken effects only to defeat the best deck in the format and now we only need to wait and see what Miracles was suppressing for all these years. I think the BUG shell was pushed a lot in the last years and now it might be to good.

Enviado desde mi Moto G (4) mediante Tapatalk

[catmint]

Miracles put pressure on the format.
Delver back then put pressure on the format (altough there were enough other decks to beat it).

Saying DRS is putting pressure on the format without seeing how it is going to develop after a major ban is silly.... don' you think? :tongue::wink:

[rlesko]

I think that the thing that's being overlooked here is the fact that Wizards (and more likely Hasbro since I'm guessing that sign showing up on social media was not something they were thrilled about) gave in to terrorism. There was a better ban to make in Counterbalance that didn't create a cascade effect in the short term. Despite that, the ban still opens up the possibility that if people make a spectacle of the situation, Wizards will feel compelled to make a move. This is a horrible precedent to set since it denies a conversation in the format's growth, which is how we end up with a format like Extended.

This ban was not based on and future bans will likely not be based on format health or what's fun. It's based on social pressure.

More like...they stuck to their tried and true philosophy of "ban the enabler"...but good job sounding dramatic.

[maharis]

I get the arguments about DRS being too strong, but I am so uneasy about the idea of banning a 1/2 creature with summoning sickness.

I also think the raw power of other one-drops is underestimated. Mom and Lackey are the big ones, maybe also Goblin Welder. If DRS was gone and there was a metagame shift to bring those kinds of cards to the forefront, we would still be in the same position of "don't let them untap with this 1-drop"

DRS's casting cost makes it flexible enough to be ubiquitous, and the printing of cards like Leovold that synergize with it amplify its power. But it's still a 1/2 creature that you have to untap with. And when you untap with it, it's not like the game is just over.

Honestly I think Miracles did a lot more to speed up the format than DRS. People were trying to win before CB lock could get set up. And miracles dominated the late game so much that no other deck could compete in that space.

Look what Reanimator became. I mean if there was ever a deck that should've feared DRS it was that... and instead they just Chancellor you and then play Griselbrand before you even draw a card.

A greater variety of fair/long-game decks should be good for the format.

[danyul]

I don't understand the complaints about WOTC bowing to social pressure. Why is it so bad if WOTC listened to their players? This is some backwards logic y'all are deploying.

It's hard enough to get people into Legacy. This format is expensive as fuck.

Y'all should be happy for every warm body at your tournaments. Miracles was boring. Miracles was a net loss for fun. I don't care if you loved it. More people hated it.

If player complaints led to it being banned, then you should be glad! That means more players will show up to your events. More nerds for you to slay. More games for you to play. So what if they aren't all amazing players? What makes you so great? What have you been winning? If you're such a baller, then you should be happy to face against a scrub. That's free money right there.

Edit - maybe this was the wrong thread for this post.

[Julian23]

Very much agreed with Dan. If you wanna see the difference between a local Miracles hero and an actual Legacy juggernaut, look no further than Joe's take on things (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/137948336).

[Maximus]

I agree with catmint on questioning how potent DRS actually is, especially as a Delver player. Consider how DRS actually fits into a BUG Delver list- you're still on tempo and playing to kill the opponent on a super low curve before they can play anything meaningful. Base premise is still basically old canadian thresh. DRS does almost none of what that deck wants to actually do:

-DRS ramps for more expensive spells that we don't play
-Stabilizes mana against the wasteland mirror (super useful)
-Shuts out degenerate strategies that the deck destroys anyway
-Is an awful clock. Yeah the -2 is nice if you're going long. We don't want to go long.
-Keeps our bad MUs bad. Think how good DRS is vs goblins, smallpox, etc. It sucks.
-It eats mana like crazy and encourages playing more lands in a deck that happily runs off 2 and shuffles the rest back.

Delver fundamentally requires very few creatures for more flip chances to begin with. So you have like 12 creature spots, Delver and Goyf/Pyro aren't going anywhere. Shaman is NOT a great fit for those last 4 cards. Unless my hand was way soft to Wasteland, I would basically jam first turn Delver between the two every time, since more turns to swing for 3 is really, really good in a deck based around killing the opponent.

Is the card powerful? Undeniably. But that doesn't give license to put it into every B/G list and call it. Legacy is a format where you can overpower someone with anything, and in a similar sense not every blue deck needs say Ponder (looking at you, Miracles). I don't see the card as even close to problematic, let alone banworthy. I pretty much agree with whoever said the article was click bait.

[iatee]

A lot of people don't want to play legacy because it has a reputation as a broken fast combo format. With Miracles gone, that is going to be far more true than it was before.

Maharis - Miracles did not speed up the format, it pushed most t1/2/3 combo decks out of t1. This allowed space for decks that don't win in the first 3 turns. Its effect on the format can't be limited to 'games you play against Miracles' - it warped the format as a whole, and IMO it was in a positive direction. But I like Magic games that go longer than 3 turns.

[Smuggo]

I don't understand the complaints about WOTC bowing to social pressure. Why is it so bad if WOTC listened to their players? This is some backwards logic y'all are deploying.

It's hard enough to get people into Legacy. This format is expensive as fuck.

Y'all should be happy for every warm body at your tournaments. Miracles was boring. Miracles was a net loss for fun. I don't care if you loved it. More people hated it.

If player complaints led to it being banned, then you should be glad! That means more players will show up to your events. More nerds for you to slay. More games for you to play. So what if they aren't all amazing players? What makes you so great? What have you been winning? If you're such a baller, then you should be happy to face against a scrub. That's free money right there.

Edit - maybe this was the wrong thread for this post.

I agree with your post, and I don't even think WotC was in any way pressured by players on this. People have been calling for a top ban (or at least a miracles nerf) for years and they didn't make any changes. I fully believe the reasons were the ones given, that it had been too good for too long and it slows down tournaments.

[Julian23]

A lot of people don't want to play legacy because it has a reputation as a broken fast combo format. With Miracles gone, that is going to be far more true than it was before.

And yet that was far from being the case even before Miracles became a deck. People, especially those who only really came into Legacy during the last ~5 years, way overestimate the influence of Miracles on the pressence of fast combo.

[danyul]

A lot of people don't want to play legacy because it has a reputation as a broken fast combo format. With Miracles gone, that is going to be far more true than it was before.


I don't buy the idea that Miracles was policing combo. Delver can do that just fine. And Delver will return in force.

A lot of people didn't want to play Legacy because it had a reputation of being the home of the most boring deck of all time, Miracles. Why buy into a format just to watch some other dork durdle for 50 minutes? With Miracles gone, players will return. I count myself among those players.


I agree with your post, and I don't even think WotC was in any way pressured by players on this. People have been calling for a top ban (or at least a miracles nerf) for years and they didn't make any changes. I fully believe the reasons were the ones given, that it had been too good for too long and it slows down tournaments.

Forsythe said on twitter that they were considering, at least partially, player complaints when it came to the ban. I don't really take their explanations on the official article at face value, although that's probably a fine reason to ban something IMO.

[Barachai]

I don't buy the idea that Miracles was policing combo. Delver can do that just fine. And Delver will return in force.

A lot of people didn't want to play Legacy because it had a reputation of being the home of the most boring deck of all time, Miracles. Why buy into a format just to watch some other dork durdle for 50 minutes? With Miracles gone, players will return. I count myself among those players.

There is also an unfortunate many people who think of two things when you say legacy: Belcher, and $$$$.

[Megadeus]

A lot of people don't want to play legacy because it has a reputation as a broken fast combo format. With Miracles gone, that is going to be far more true than it was before.

Maharis - Miracles did not speed up the format, it pushed most t1/2/3 combo decks out of t1. This allowed space for decks that don't win in the first 3 turns. Its effect on the format can't be limited to 'games you play against Miracles' - it warped the format as a whole, and IMO it was in a positive direction. But I like Magic games that go longer than 3 turns.

What? Delver just as good if not better than Miracles at keeping combo suppressed. All Miracles really did was make any non super fast combo not viable. If what you are saying was true then why was Belcher/Dredge/Storm/Reanimator not completely dominating the format before miracles existed? This is pure lunacy.

[CptHaddock]

What? Delver just as good if not better than Miracles at keeping combo suppressed. All Miracles really did was make any non super fast combo not viable. If what you are saying was true then why was Belcher/Dredge/Storm/Reanimator not completely dominating the format before miracles existed? This is pure lunacy.

I'm pretty sure that countermagic, graveyard hate and general purpose combo hate didn't exist before miracles became a deck. :frown: /s

[H]

What? Delver just as good if not better than Miracles at keeping combo suppressed. All Miracles really did was make any non super fast combo not viable. If what you are saying was true then why was Belcher/Dredge/Storm/Reanimator not completely dominating the format before miracles existed? This is pure lunacy.

Yeah, even in our small local metagame, all our Storm players moved on, even though we only really had one Miracles player (and he was one of the players who would play Storm from time to time). A fair portion of the meta overall is hostile to Storm. Even Death and Taxes is no slouch versus Storm now, provided they don't turn 1/2 you.

[Lemnear]

And yet that was far from being the case even before Miracles became a deck. People, especially those who only really came into Legacy during the last ~5 years, way overestimate the influence of Miracles on the pressence of fast combo.

Its quite ironical that Counterbalance + SDT and Ancient Tomb + Chalice were often the fastest "I win" combos in the format

[maharis]

I have been playing a lot of storm on MTGO the past few months just for a break from my paper collection which is mostly midrange nonsense.

I never felt that CB & Top was the threat out of Miracles. Usually storm was fast enough to win before it came down, or win through it if they only had limited stuff floating. Once storm added Decay to the maindeck it was even easier because you could Decay CB end of turn then go off.

I also played Miracles for a time in paper and lost with CB & Top on board a couple times for the same reason. You can only float so much stuff and activate top so many times.

But post-board when the Flusterstorms and Surgicals came in, the matchup was harder. In the same way, it's way harder to beat Sea->Deathrite->Go and a grip full of countermagic. The clock is important.

Miracles didn't stop any combo decks from succeeding with the right adaptations. The No. 2 deck the day SDT was banned was Sneak & Show. Reanimator was winning on turn 0.5. Storm was OK. The idea that only Miracles was stopping degenerate combos is incorrect. The only reason it could was because it was so good against fair decks that it could overload for combo in games 2 & 3 and make CB/Top more relevant by getting to a later point in the game.

Combo decks do not want to face a clock + interaction, which is more likely now that there will be more fair decks that aren't trying to win or lock you out before turn 3. They'll likely adapt to the new meta, but the games should be good and interactive.

[Richard Cheese]

I have been playing a lot of storm on MTGO the past few months just for a break from my paper collection which is mostly midrange nonsense.

I never felt that CB & Top was the threat out of Miracles. Usually storm was fast enough to win before it came down, or win through it if they only had limited stuff floating. Once storm added Decay to the maindeck it was even easier because you could Decay CB end of turn then go off.

I also played Miracles for a time in paper and lost with CB & Top on board a couple times for the same reason. You can only float so much stuff and activate top so many times.

But post-board when the Flusterstorms and Surgicals came in, the matchup was harder. In the same way, it's way harder to beat Sea->Deathrite->Go and a grip full of countermagic. The clock is important.

Miracles didn't stop any combo decks from succeeding with the right adaptations. The No. 2 deck the day SDT was banned was Sneak & Show. Reanimator was winning on turn 0.5. Storm was OK. The idea that only Miracles was stopping degenerate combos is incorrect. The only reason it could was because it was so good against fair decks that it could overload for combo in games 2 & 3 and make CB/Top more relevant by getting to a later point in the game.

Combo decks do not want to face a clock + interaction, which is more likely now that there will be more fair decks that aren't trying to win or lock you out before turn 3. They'll likely adapt to the new meta, but the games should be good and interactive.

Agreed. Do you think TES will make a comeback, or at least maindeck Silence replacing Decay now that Counterbalance is gone, or is Chalice enough of a permanent fixture that Decay is here to stay as well?

[Minniehajj]

Very much agreed with Dan. If you wanna see the difference between a local Miracles hero and an actual Legacy juggernaut, look no further than Joe's take on things (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/137948336).

At first, I was angry, hurt, and upset, but after thinking about it and speaking with Anuraag, I've mostly resolved myself to the decision and am looking ahead. Legacy is always going to be the best format and the writing was honestly on the wall with all of the work we were putting into the archetype. It became more and more vocal as more and more people picked up the deck and then, like a hammer, the ban finally happened. I am no longer angry or upset. I am going to put my effort towards other things, such as maybe seeing if there IS a control deck that can fill that void if possible. If not, I'll play a new deck, so on and so forth.

I do NOT want Legacy to become what modern is, a barren wasteland where people are afraid to play or buy decks, or to work on decks to make them better, in fear of banning. I understand that DRS is ubiquitous in most of the format, but I don't really care that much, I would rather simply allow Legacy to continue self regulating. If something becomes too good, there will be outcry, rebellion, and lashing out and it'll be gone eventually. So it goes.

It's a Brave New World out there now, and what you choose to do with your time is up to you. I'll be doing what I've always done: tapping islands.

[Lemnear]

Agreed. Do you think TES will make a comeback, or at least maindeck Silence replacing Decay now that Counterbalance is gone, or is Chalice enough of a permanent fixture that Decay is here to stay as well?

TES has less issues with DRS than ANT, but that means nothing at this point, as the meta isn't settled down yet. Silence in TES is dead since 2013 when people started to run variable hate. Chalice can get handled with blue bounce

[Megadeus]

There have been two deck killing bans in 7 years. Survival and Top (the bans of Misstep and the retarded delve spells don't count because they were clearly busted and didn't kill off complete archetypes) were both very very powerful cards that gained printings that made them extra dumb. Honestly if any card really is the next to be looked at it's probably Show and Tell, but that would have to put up some very good #'s to even be considered at this point. I guess we've never had a Griselbrand format without Miracles at least existing, but I think Show and Tell has enough of a downside that it would never reach the numbers miracles did for the long period of time that it did.

Edit: forgot my original intent. The notion that Legacy might turn into modern where any best deck gets banned is dumb. Modern seems to see a ban at this point once a year and it's generally archetype killing or at least crippling bans. Legacy a deck has to be very dominant for a good amount of time a lot with the fact that we have so few large tourneys it's difficult for WOTC to assess the format at times.

[Megadeus]

TES has less issues with DRS than ANT, but that means nothing at this point, as the meta isn't settled down yet. Silence in TES is dead since 2013 when people started to run variable hate. Chalice can get handled with blue bounce

Sorry for double post, but I agree with this. The chalice decks generally run watseland so having to fetch out an off color dual to decay chalice feels super bad. I'd rather play more Hurkyll's, Rebuild, and Chain of Vapor now than decay if I were building storm. I also Personally think I might run a Karakas in the board of ANT again.

[maharis]

Agreed. Do you think TES will make a comeback, or at least maindeck Silence replacing Decay now that Counterbalance is gone, or is Chalice enough of a permanent fixture that Decay is here to stay as well?

I'm flattered that you would ask me haha. I'm terrible at storm still. But it is fun.

I'm actually torn between keeping Decays in the board and playing Ancient Grudge. Many of the Chalice decks are also playing 3ball or Thorn now. I got destroyed by that Big Eldrazi deck the other day and had I been able to keep it off mana I would've been in better shape. Grudge also allows you to nuke Vial and Revoker with one card against D&T.

Either way, I think green is still necessary because of Xantid Swarm, which I like a lot more now because you can probably count on a lot of UBx decks that are going to try to clock you with a Delver or DRS. Forces them to leave in removal that's largely bad.

Speaking of largely bad removal, I'm trying Bolt in my board. Hits all the little weenies that drive you nuts and can close things out in a pinch. Good against Leovold. Hasn't come up yet though.

[scaryrawr]

Miracles didn't stop any combo decks from succeeding with the right adaptations. The No. 2 deck the day SDT was banned was Sneak & Show. Reanimator was winning on turn 0.5. Storm was OK. The idea that only Miracles was stopping degenerate combos is incorrect. The only reason it could was because it was so good against fair decks that it could overload for combo in games 2 & 3 and make CB/Top more relevant by getting to a later point in the game.

Combo decks do not want to face a clock + interaction, which is more likely now that there will be more fair decks that aren't trying to win or lock you out before turn 3. They'll likely adapt to the new meta, but the games should be good and interactive.

^^^ These statements here ^^^

I've always been told that Miracles keeps combo in check, but the more I think about it, the less true it seems. Miracles kept fair decks in check, and prevented more of the fair decks from being "viable".

I think the lack of Miracles if anything will allow more decks to be more diverse and side boards to be more flexible for everyone to be more well rounded. Everyone had dedicated "I hate Miracles" cards, but most decks don't need a "I hate DRS" cards. You had to care about your Miracles match up, you don't really care about your DRS match up (except graveyard combo decks? and goblins...?).

I want to see what happens, I'm excited for the shifts right now.

[Crimhead]

Pretty much all good-stuff fair midrange and tempo decks are running :b::u::g: colours (meta shift pending). Of course this is as much cantrips pushing :u: as it is DRS/AD pushing :b:/:g:.
That's just fair good-stuff piles though. Beyond these, no deck really wants DRS unless they happen to care about its type line for some reason.

Recently D&T, Infect, Eldrazi, Lands, Sneak Show, Storm, and Reanimator have been solid options. I know we are in a shake-up (I think Burn is looking good), but I can't imagine we are heading for a meta dominated by fair BUG decks Could be wrong I guess.

[matunos]

I think too many people are discounting the impact of the second rationale for Top's banning, and Bob seems to here as well.

Deathrite is about as powerful as Bob says, and I expect he'll be more ubiquitous with Miracles gone, but mainly because, outside of Miracles, he was already ubiquitous among fair decks. So does the Miracles exit really change that? Does Deathrite become more powerful in absolute terms among the non-Miracles decks?

I'm skeptical of that. BUG, in one form or another, was already tier 1. It will be seen more because Miracles will be seen less.

The decks that will be really seen more, compared to the previous meta but minus Miracles, are the decks that Miracles really preyed on. Of these, Elves seems like the most likely in terms of boosting Deathrite. But Elves is not dependant on Deathrite for its strategy, it's just a better choice in general than the other mana dorks it used to run. That is, banning Deathrite will not have a large impact on Elves, the most likely Deathrite deck to benefit from Miracles' passing.

I believe Wizards that Top was banned for both of the reasons they gave. Deathrite doesn't lead to draws like Top did. There's no Deathrite bracket at tournaments. Yes, it was the Miracles deck, not Top alone, that brought about this situation, but that's because Counterbalance magnified the time impact of Top, and the deck's overall success made it a popular choice of deck among people at all skill levels. This is why I disagree with people who said Terminus should have gotten the hammer instead. The point was not that Miracles was too strong, it was that Miracles' strength hilighted the fact that Top is not a card that's conducive to good tournaments.

When played with skill and speed, Miracles does not lead to draws, but many players did not play with such speed. Top players may not recognize that fact because they tend to stay out of the draw bracket, but Wizards cannot just craft their tournaments for top players. It's simply unfair to players paired up against an inexperienced or unskillful Miracles pilot that they get stuck with a draw more often than not because so much time is eaten up with Topping and fetching.

This situation just doesn't exist with Deathrite, and furthermore, the variety of decks that Deathrite is represented in suggest to me that he's not as much of a problem- certainly no more than is Brainstorm, and Wizards has not shown any signs of ever banning that. (Perhaps Brainstorm receives special protection as the lynchpin of the format, though.)

[Ronald Deuce]

I'm not sure whether I've put it this way—or whether anyone cares—but I feel like there's a substantial and substantive difference between cards that show up in top brackets because they enable a variety of decks and cards that show up in top brackets because they force opponents into weird deckbuilding corners to combat them.

Counterbalance, for instance, is of the latter variety, while Brainstorm and Deathrite Shaman are of the former. (For the record, I also think Sensei's Divining Top is of the former category.)

Cards in the first group are, I think, generally good for the game and shouldn't be targeted. Cards of the second group are the ones that cause much greater aggravation and do the "warping" most of the time.

Obviously none of this is set in stone (and certainly cards can fill both roles), but I feel like one reason people often talk past each other is that both groups can cause homogenization in the card choices of the best decks. The latter group, though, tends to comprise the cards that are lynchpins of oppressive decks, which has a much wider impact than simply the frequency of card X or Y in top-8 maindecks; the homogenization extends to deck archetypes and even specific decklists. Maybe that's not a bad thing, because it's certainly a valid approach to the format to find an angle that nobody expects (or is prepared to answer) and to exploit it, but I feel like cards that do that are also ones that run the greatest risk of knocking over the format.

Maybe I'm drawing a distinction where there isn't really a difference.

[Dice_Box]

I'm not sure whether I've put it this way—or whether anyone cares—but I feel like there's a substantial and substantive difference between cards that show up in top brackets because they enable a variety of decks and cards that show up in top brackets because they force opponents into weird deckbuilding corners to combat them.
I feel like the flip side is often true. The cards that enable bullshit are often far more powerful than the ones enabled. That leaves a choice, kill the virus or treat the symptoms. Wizards, like them or hate them, have been consistent in their approach to how they react and I don't disagree with that.

[Kanti]

It's ok if some of you think pure numbers a certain card sees should be the deciding factor for whether something gets banned. But please have the maturity to acknowledge that not everyone shares your sentinment. I for example couldn't care less for numbers of a certain card if the meta itself was super diverse from a strategic point of view.

It's a slippery slope. At the end of the day, one mana dork has to better than the other, just like one cantrip has to be better than the other. Do we ban Brainstorm because it invalidates playing other 1cc cantrips? Can the same be said about Ponder?

When you combine a card being the best of it's type with crazy % of representation amongst meta decks, it can get annoying. The question, for me, becomes how can a meta be so diverse if a single card is seeing high % numbers?

For example. Brainstorm decks aren't all the same, sure, but I think we all saw the trend when DTT was legal. There was basically a shell of blue cards one could pick up, and then you just had to choose your kill condition. Did you want to Brainstorm, DTT, Ponder into Omniscience, Miracles, or Delver? Just my 2c.

edit: for the record, I think Deathrite is fine, for now.

[ironclad8690]

Turn 1 U Sea -> DRS leaves a lot of room for interaction. Turn 1 Island -> Top could only really be "answered" by Pithing Needle or Revoker, only 1 of these being maindeckable, and already at a losing proposition by being an "answer" against a deck built to beat creature strategies. I think that possibility to interact is what will keep DRS around. Sure there are frustrating games where you are behind all game because of a turn 1 DRS that snowballs, but the same was true of goblin lackey, llanowar elf, mother of runes, etc. for years.

[tescrin]

Turn 1 U Sea -> DRS leaves a lot of room for interaction. Turn 1 Island -> Top could only really be "answered" by Pithing Needle or Revoker, only 1 of these being maindeckable, and already at a losing proposition by being an "answer" against a deck built to beat creature strategies. I think that possibility to interact is what will keep DRS around. Sure there are frustrating games where you are behind all game because of a turn 1 DRS that snowballs, but the same was true of goblin lackey, llanowar elf, mother of runes, etc. for years.

And people have been whining about SDT for a decade; and pretty heavily for 3-4 years. DRS has some time left ;)

[Humphrey]

https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/deathrite-is-next/

So hypothetically, if the little green guy hits 50% of the meta, but it's not one deck. How would you guys feel?

I don't think it's inconsistent to leave Brainstorm (70%) and ban Deathrite because Brainstorm enables far more strategic diversity, whereas Deathrite makes games revolve around him, and he's just plainly too undercosted.

it was inconsistent banning anything before brainstorm in the first place. namely treasure cruise. that card wouldve been fine without brainstorm
that said, i dont see them ever banning a creature that can be both bolted and sworded

[Lemnear]

it was inconsistent banning anything before brainstorm in the first place. namely treasure cruise. that card wouldve been fine without brainstorm

Fun fact: Treasure Cruise AND Brainstorm would be fine without Fetchlands

[hovercraft]

Fun fact: Treasure Cruise AND Brainstorm would be fine without Fetchlands

One of my friends locally hates playing Legacy/Modern just because of all the shuffling due to Fetches.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Remember, Harsh Mentor has just been released, who knows how things will pan out. It's a perfect answer to DRS imo.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[Poron]

and to fetchlands, in general. They become Bolts.

With Stifle, Wasteland and some soft counters Mentor is a win-con alone

[Whitefaces]

and to fetchlands, in general. They become Bolts.

With Stifle, Wasteland and some soft counters Mentor is a win-con alone

When can we see a DRS Damping Matrix deck from you?

[Poron]

the day you learn how TNN works

[Whitefaces]

the day you learn how TNN works

Oof, touche.

[Poron]

eheheh :cool:

always love to everyone

[JDK]

Most guys posting here overestimate DRS power level quite a bit I think.

I played with him in Delver variants, BUG Midrange and Elves over the years.

Sure he has value against Storm, Reanimator and dredge, but it does not turn matchups around. These decks can play through/around it and are fast to just kill you if you go "manadork" - go.

His value against mana denial decks is there but Delver decks can just kill/daze it on sight which is a fair trade and DnT can lock it down with Revoker.

He is primarily mana acceleration which is fair because it is conditional - not having a land in GY for a 3 mana in turn 2 happens often enough.

He is strong because he has late game value which regular mana dorks don't But compared to a strong late game play on your opponents side he is mostly embarrassing. I know a very competent playgroup which cut him out of Stoneblade back then because he was "good" but not "good enough". Debateable decision of course but shows that he is not an "auto-4 of" as a splash if you are not BG.

Comparing to the other power 1 drops I feel:

Delver is MUCH stronger - How many people won games by playing delver and having their only land wasted but managed to protect their delver with 1 Force of Will... :) ... or you play Delver, Daze, Delver... Multiple DRS do not nearly offer the same incremental power compared to multiple Delver.

Mother of Runes is hard to compare. But in the DnT mother is the best creature (? - never played the deck - but hated to play against mother sooo much)... the power level of MoR in D&T is arguably better than DRS in a BG deck.

Like any other creature which is viable in legacy DRS is overpowered in general :smile: ... but no problem in legacy standards. :wink:


It's funny how you compare DRS to "strong late game plays" and say he is fine because he cannot kill a MU alone, and then talk about how much Delver is stronger because he wins games UNHANDLED in CONJUNCTION with other cards. :DD
Saying "mother is better in DnT than DRS in BGx" is also something I'd think about twice. BGx Decks without DRS are lackluster to begin with in any matchup.
Comparing it to Delver and saying it's much weaker makes me wonder as well. Of course Delver will win way more games directly by chewing at the opponents life total. That's the ONLY thing it does. No ramp. No HP gain. No reach on board stalls. Plus, it also needs setup. You seem to either down play DRS' incremental value or you are completely unaware of what it does in a game.


Delver was (semi) king before Miracles - and was still strong during miracles - so it is a fair assumption that if a 1 drop creature will be king - it won't be deathrite. ;)
Delver was printed how long before Miracles became a thing? DRS was printed DURING the reign of Miracles and was already the most played creature before the ban. Fair assumption. :))))))
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/format-staples/legacy