[Article] MKM Frankfurt – Top23 Decklists & Conversion Rates

[Julian23]

https://i1.wp.com/itsjulian.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/FrankfurtFoto.png?w=799

"The event coverage team of the MKM Series was kind enough to give me all the decklists of their 437-player Legacy Main Event that took place in Frankfurt this Sunday (since this apparently was a question a lot of people had asked me: I only got them after the event was over.) Because this was the first giant tournament following the ban of Sensei’s Divining Top I thought it would be really important to post more than just the Top8 decklists MKM usually provides, so let’s do this! It took me something like forever to type (let alone read some players’ writing..) these out but it’s totally worth it. I decided to go with all 8-2 lists instead of the arbitrary Top32 cut we often see; the latter doesn’t really make sense since it also has a lot of 7-3 players, which basically extend all the way down to 63rd place. Another thing I also want to look into is the conversion rate into an 8-2 finish or better."

Check out the article on: http://itsjulian.com/mkm-frankfurt-all-8-2-or-better-decklists-conversion-rates/

Thanks,
Julian

[Megadeus]

Good breakdown Julian. I really wish more bigger events did this. Would be nice to see conversation rates over a long period rather than just a single event which could be an outlier. DNT probably suffers some splash damage from elves perceived being the best deck as well as having an absolutely horrid elves match up. It also should prey on the shitty grixis and 4 color mana bases, but I'm not sure how well they can fare when those decks can run so much efficient cheap removal combined with therapy to ravage stone forge

[Minniehajj]

Asked this question on Reddit, but I'll post it here too: Did any UWR Blade or other UWR strategy based lists stand out to you at all? I'm desperate here man =P

[CptHaddock]

Asked this question on Reddit, but I'll post it here too: Did any UWR Blade or other UWR strategy based lists stand out to you at all? I'm desperate here man =P



Something else I want to point out is that Stoneblade decks (most of them of the Bant Deathblade variety; one of them Griselbrand-Blade) not only had a ton of players, but also the second-best conversion rate of all the decks in the format, greatly outperforming Death & Taxes and Elves which had a similar number of players.


You can play some shitblade in the meantime tho.

1 Vendilion Clique
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 True-Name Nemesis
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Moorland Haunt
1 Karakas
2 Plains
2 Arid Mesa
3 Polluted Delta
4 Island
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand

SB
1 Humility
2 Disenchant
2 Rest in Peace
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Sanctum Prelate
1 Path to Exile
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Council's Judgement
1 Pithing Needle

[Minniehajj]

Esper's playstyle is a bit too proactive for my tastes, but I definitely read what he said. And yeah...shitblade :(.

[Julian23]

In my experience Death&Taxes has suffered a lot over the last ~6 months, eventually arriving with its current version at being borderline unplayable. People were somewhat blinded by all the new and shiny toys it got, and the deck itself has a very high skill-ceiling, allowing great players to still prosper, but in general it's much worse positioned now that it used to be ~1 year ago. Even Marius Hausmann stopped playing the deck ~2 months ago because he couldn't take it anymore.

[CptHaddock]

In my experience Death&Taxes has suffered a lot over the last ~6 months, eventually arriving with its current version at being borderline unplayable. People were somewhat blinded by all the new and shiny toys it got, and the deck itself has a very high skill-ceiling, allowing great players to still prosper, but in general it's much worse positioned now that it used to be ~1 year ago. Even Marius Hausmann stopped playing the deck ~2 months ago because he couldn't take it anymore.

Can't this be said about most decks in Legacy though?

I think in general most non[blue, chalice, combo] playing decks have gotten hurt by some of the printings in the last 5 or so years of Legacy. It really feels like if you aren't playing brainstorm you absolutely either need to be playing chalice or a combo deck.

That list isn't esper btw, I think straight UW has the tools to deal with everything in the format and that B doesn't really offer anything worthwhile minus perish/deluge and souls. It's probably quite an experience to play control decks that has weaknesses.

edit: I think that Bant is probably the most competitive stoneblade variant right now.

[Barook]

In my experience Death&Taxes has suffered a lot over the last ~6 months, eventually arriving with its current version at being borderline unplayable. People were somewhat blinded by all the new and shiny toys it got, and the deck itself has a very high skill-ceiling, allowing great players to still prosper, but in general it's much worse positioned now that it used to be ~1 year ago. Even Marius Hausmann stopped playing the deck ~2 months ago because he couldn't take it anymore.
D&T suffers because it still lacks proper card filtering. Yes, Recruiter is nice and all, but you can't afford to run more than two copies due to its high price and the decks lack of acceleration. The 3cc spot is simply too crowded. The consistency issues are the main reason I'm not planning to pick up the deck again anytime soon.

It certainly doesn't help the deck either that most hate can't come online before T2 (which means you're boned against most combo decks on the play, especially the new, faster Storm variants) and that its worst match-up (Elves) just got a major boost due to Miracles been gone.

[Scott]

Wow, thank you.

[Mad Mat]

In my experience Death&Taxes has suffered a lot over the last ~6 months, eventually arriving with its current version at being borderline unplayable. People were somewhat blinded by all the new and shiny toys it got, and the deck itself has a very high skill-ceiling, allowing great players to still prosper, but in general it's much worse positioned now that it used to be ~1 year ago. Even Marius Hausmann stopped playing the deck ~2 months ago because he couldn't take it anymore.
I think D&T was doing very well before the ban of miracles. The ban resulted in a bunch of bad match-ups becoming more prominent again, such as fast combo, true-name aggro and elves. It's wait and see how the meta will adapt to this change and whether D&T lists can adapt in turn. The deck has gotten a lot of good tools the last few years, but none of them have seen a meta not dominated by miracles.

[Richard Cheese]

Time to try the black splash again? Gives you T1 combo protection, a draw engine, and tools to fight Elves and TNN like Perish and Zealous Persecution.

[maharis]

Can't this be said about most decks in Legacy though?

I think in general most non[blue, chalice, combo] playing decks have gotten hurt by some of the printings in the last 5 or so years of Legacy. It really feels like if you aren't playing brainstorm you absolutely either need to be playing chalice or a combo deck.

That list isn't esper btw, I think straight UW has the tools to deal with everything in the format and that B doesn't really offer anything worthwhile minus perish/deluge and souls. It's probably quite an experience to play control decks that has weaknesses.

edit: I think that Bant is probably the most competitive stoneblade variant right now.

I think Lingering Souls is really good right now. No 4x sweeper decks to make your spirits disappear. Lots of spot removal that it laughs at. Flies over TNN carrying equipment. Yes, deathrite shaman, but if that hasn't eaten an STP by the time you're casting souls you're in bad shape anyway.


Time to try the black splash again? Gives you T1 combo protection, a draw engine, and tools to fight Elves and TNN like Perish and Zealous Persecution.

Don't forget Kambal! One day...

[Scott]

It's kind of surprising that so few people (some number less than 9) piloted Eldrazi. Makes sense on a level, but still interesting.

[Que]

Hey Julian congrats on the top 8 bro! Great job as usual.

Also does anyone know what the final card in the Deathblade player's SB was? http://series.magiccardmarket.eu/2017/04/30/christopher-wilhelm-stoneblade/

I think its missing a card.

----------------------------------------

Damn that Red Eldrazi Deck looks spicy lol.

[Megadeus]

I think Lingering Souls is really good right now. No 4x sweeper decks to make your spirits disappear. Lots of spot removal that it laughs at. Flies over TNN carrying equipment. Yes, deathrite shaman, but if that hasn't eaten an STP by the time you're casting souls you're in bad shape anyway.



Don't forget Kambal! One day...

I always sneak a Kambal into every Junk deck I play. He did win me a match or two. God he would be super sick if he were 2 mana.

[Whitefaces]

Also does anyone know what the final card in the Deathblade player's SB was? http://series.magiccardmarket.eu/2017/04/30/christopher-wilhelm-stoneblade/

I think its missing a card.

I can't say for sure, but I was discussing the sb with him the day before the tournament. I think it's either a 3rd Thoughtseize or a 2nd Ethersworn Canonist.

[dte]

Really great to have this analysis Julian, thanks for the effort!

And congrats on the overall WE performances, impressive!

[Crimhead]

D&T suffers because it still lacks proper card filtering. Yes, Recruiter is nice and all, but you can't afford to run more than two copies due to its high price and the decks lack of acceleration. The 3cc spot is simply too crowded. The consistency issues are the main reason I'm not planning to pick up the deck again anytime soon.

It certainly doesn't help the deck either that most hate can't come online before T2 (which means you're boned against most combo decks on the play, especially the new, faster Storm variants) and that its worst match-up (Elves) just got a major boost due to Miracles been gone.
I don't think card filtering is the issue. D&T has been good in the past without filters. Jund and Maverick had their day as kings with only GSZ and maybe a singleton Library to fix their draws. Consistency is not always better than raw power/value.

D&T is struggling because the meta is currently flooded with combo; and combo has gotten faster (or Elfier). Things should settle down soon. Also D&T is one the more control-leaning decks in the format now. As the article suggests, a wide open format undergoing a major shift is hard for control to prepare for.

[Julian23]

I actually think actual "Control" is not viable in a format as powerful as Legacy. That's more of a pipe dream. Even when we had Landstill, one of the most controlish decks in history, it had an abyssmal combo matchup, and that was long before Griselbrand boosted combo like nothing before it.

[Crimhead]

I actually think actual "Control" is not viable in a format as powerful as Legacy.Sadly I think it's gone the way of aggro.

I don't think it's an issue of the format's overall power level. More a question of where the power is concentrated. Legacy has been pumped up with midrange value for so many years, while control gets shit because MaRo thinks even Desert is "harsh and unforgiving"
:cry:

[Minniehajj]

I actually think actual "Control" is not viable in a format as powerful as Legacy. That's more of a pipe dream. Even when we had Landstill, one of the most controlish decks in history, it had an abyssmal combo matchup, and that was long before Griselbrand boosted combo like nothing before it.

Sadly I have to agree with this. Miracles was a "control" deck but not nearly as controlling as something like Landstill was, since it used a soft lock and a series of cards that basically invalidated whatever your opponent was doing. Without something like CounterTop, it's simply not sustainable to play a control strategy that's actually good enough to be considered tier one. You cannot claim that decks like Stoneblade are control decks, they are midrange decks with control elements, but they still maintain the ability to have a time bomb on the opponent, something that true control decks don't have. Draw-go control is dead, and that wasn't because of Miracles, it's been dead for quite some time.

[Crimhead]

We just need WotC to power creep Moat, Tabernacle, Counterspell, Propaganda, Neithervoid, The Abyss, etc.

[Megadeus]

The problem with control isn't necessarily mid range creatures though. A pure control deck has a slow clock, which against the efficiency and power level of the formats combo decks means that even if you disrupt them, in the long run they will eventually find what they need unless you kill them or lock them. Miracles had a slow clock, but they had a lock to supplement that. Like was said, Landstill had an abysmal combo match up. I remember control used VClique as disruption plugs a clock for the combo match up. You're gonna have to go back to something like that to make combo a better match up. Blame power creeping creatures if you want, but in a world of 1 mana removal, plus snapcaster, and still a million ways to mass remove creatures, the real issue is, how do you disrupt combo and put pressure on them to win before they kill you?

[Megadeus]

We just need WotC to power creep Moat, Tabernacle, Counterspell, Propaganda, Neithervoid, The Abyss, etc.

These cards are all fine. Moat actually was a very good answer to Elves before Reclamation Sage was printed. The issue with all of these cards is that nobody even tries them anymore because the "pros" don't tell them to

[Lava Snacks]

Remember that draw-go isn't the only form of hard control. Not that the other forms of hard control are Tier 1 now either, but just saying. There are certainly builds of Lands, Enchantress, Stax, Pox, etc. that are control without being blue draw-go.

[Crimhead]

Blame power creeping creatures if you want, but in a world of 1 mana removal, plus snapcaster, and still a million ways to mass remove creatures, the real issue is, how do you disrupt combo and put pressure on them to win before they kill you?
I did mention Nethervoid and Couterspell as also needing powercreep.

As for combo decks, Reanimator, Elves, and S&T have all benefited from creature power creep.

[Crimhead]

Remember that draw-go isn't the only form of hard control. Not that the other forms of hard control are Tier 1 now either, but just saying. There are certainly builds of Lands, Enchantress, Stax, Pox, etc. that are control without being blue draw-go.
That's exactly it.

Although RG Lands is more combo/control, But I do love my RUG build.

Pox, Enchantress, Stax, etc have all been left in the dust. I'm thinking of brewing a Back to Basics, Tanglewire, Stasis deck. But I do not have high hopes!

[tescrin]

These cards are all fine. Moat actually was a very good answer to Elves before Reclamation Sage was printed. The issue with all of these cards is that nobody even tries them anymore because the "pros" don't tell them to

I guess. Nether Void and Moat have the 4-mana issue; which is difficult with Stifle + Wasteland + Clock. If the format was a little slower, you could sustain 4CMC a little easier/more reliably, but c'est la vie.

Propaganda is just meh; it's better cousin Ensnaring Bridge sees some play; but so many decks run answers to it because answers got better (Rec Sage, QPM, Decay, Kolaghan's, Flickerwisp, etc.), not to mention DRS, Infect, Burn, Storm, etc. not caring. The mana-strangulation of legacy also make it difficult to get your hand size down without just playing badly.


I think Lands is a true control deck and I don't get why everyone ignores it. How is a deck that stops you from doing everything you attempt to do, lock you out, and whatnot not a control deck? I get that it's a prison deck, but that's the same thing IMO. Even without it, Tezzerator could be a thing at some point and is generally true control: "Stiff arm someone while drawing cards; win big"

Control isn't even about a slow clock. Control in the old days was 5-6 mana flyers with Goyf stats. Say what you will, but that's not that slow. I can understand the want for creature-less control, but a deck running 4 Push, 4 Strix, some Snaps, a couple decay, some Jaces, and whatnot seems like control to me. It's not there to bludgeon you with Goyfs, TNN, Gurmag, Equips, etc.. it's there to grind you into paste behind a wall of answers and obnoxiousness. Hell.. that deck may be good with Bridge.

[gh0st_b1rd]

I'm having giddy flashbacks of Rifter, Truffle Shuffle and Wombat now.

[Crimhead]

I guess. Nether Void and Moat have the 4-mana issue; which is difficult with Stifle + Wasteland + Clock. If the format was a little slower, you could sustain 4CMC a little easier/more reliably, but c'est la vie.
It's not that the format is too fast - it's that those prison cards are too slow. Grizzly becomes Goyf, Flying men becomes Delver, BoP becomes DRS, but poor Humility and co are left to rot.

Prison pieces have gotten "upgrades", but in the form of growing legs (and they mostly hose non-creatures). They are easier to remove but put up a clock - so they tend to go in more aggressive decks.



I think Lands is a true control deck and I don't get why everyone ignores it. How is a deck that stops you from doing everything you attempt to do, lock you out, and whatnot not a control deck?
Ignore Lands? Sir, I demand satisfaction!
I would never ignore Lands. But 4x Depths, 4x Stage, and 8 1-mana tutors makes it as much a combo deck as a control deck.

[Whitefaces]

Ignore Lands? Sir, I demand satisfaction!
I would never ignore Lands. But 4x Depths, 4x Stage, and 8 1-mana tutors makes it as much a combo deck as a control deck.

People are ignoring lands because not many people are playing it at the moment.

[Crimhead]

Control isn't even about a slow clock. Control in the old days was 5-6 mana flyers with Goyf stats. Say what you will, but that's not that slow.
It's not so much about the speed of the clock, as when you turn it on.

Old draw-go decks would employ control elements to stop combat from happening for most of the game - or at least hamper it as best they can. They prefer to make the combat step totally irrelevant until they are ready to make a big play to close the game.

"Control" decks like D&T, Blade, and BUG control don't use control to "bypass" combat in the early stages of the game. They want combat. They use control to instead ensure that combat is happening primarily in their favour. Compare this to a deck like Cunning Wake.

Hard control is a distinct style of play, but currently in recession. Much like the best "aggro" decks (Delver) are teaming with disruption, our best "control" decks abound with aggressive elements. Legacy is still a great game, but it's unfortunate it has to move in this direction.

[CptHaddock]

Why is the speed of clock even relevant to control decks? Yes surviving to the late game is the entire point of a control deck, so obviously you are going to try to remove anything preventing you from doing so seems like a nobrainer. For me the defining factors of a control deck are resource denial, inevitability and card advantage in it's various shapes and forms. It doesn't matter if your opponent is beating you down with a serra angel or a tarmogoyf, if a deck has these characteristics then it's a control deck.

I don't know why people are so obsessed with old school beat you down with 3/3 elephants or serra angels control decks, stronger cards have been printed and it's foolish not to use them. Ya'll need to stop living in 1993.


These cards are all fine. Moat actually was a very good answer to Elves before Reclamation Sage was printed. The issue with all of these cards is that nobody even tries them anymore because the "pros" don't tell them to

Exactly while not exactly the backbreakers they were in their haydays landing these cards is still a huge beating to most decks. Nothing needs to be powercreeped, people just need to adapt their decks to fit these cards. You can't just jam a moat in a current blade list and then complain that moat doesn't do anything.

Now that miracles is out of the format there is nothing really stopping people from playtesting to figure out if a control style similar to miracles is viable but I guess that is much harder than waiting for someone to top 8 a large event so you can copy their list. :rolleyes:

[Crimhead]

Why is the speed of clock even relevant to control decks? Yes surviving to the late game is the entire point of a control deck...
...It doesn't matter if your opponent is beating you down with a serra angel or a tarmogoyf, if a deck has these characteristics then it's a control deck.


The difference is:

Goyf is bigger.
Goyf comes down much earlier.
Goyf is typically backed with ove half a dozen "grizzly bears" and or "flying men".
With threats come down consistently early, there is no need to stall till the late game. There is no incentive to tool your deck towards surviving till late game (not that such tools still exist) because you need only survive till the mid-game. Hence the term mid-ranged.

I don't know why this distinction is so elusive, while the difference between a linear aggro deck vs, eg, UR Delver, is so readily accepted.
:confused:



Now that miracles is out of the format there is nothing really stopping people from playtesting to figure out if a control style similar to miracles is viable but I guess that is much harder than waiting for someone to top 8 a large event so you can copy their list.

Personally I love my Lands deck and don't have much budget or time for brewing.

There are always opportunities to brew whatever archetype you want. Still it's nice to have established decks in a variety of play-styles. Maybe ghe new meta will produce a tier one control deck, but maybe it will not.



Exactly while not exactly the backbreakers they were in their haydays landing these cards is still a huge beating to most decks.

The cards are a lot harder to land these days. Combo, Tempo, and Midrange decks have sped up quite a lot. Some play-styles can enjoy power creep, others have to suck it up.

[maharis]

I don't know why people are so obsessed with old school beat you down with 3/3 elephants or serra angels control decks, stronger cards have been printed and it's foolish not to use them. Ya'll need to stop living in 1993.

Me either. I've been playing URx control decks in paper and UWx control decks online the past couple weeks and the games have been so much more fun and rewarding than playing with/against Miracles ever was. With no one likely to derp off 42 power of angels on your end step or leave you drawing to your 1-2 of Abrupt Decay in order to beat their lock the games are actually interactive and back-and-forth.

It is insane to me that so many people dismiss any deck with a creature of CMC<2 as non-control (though of course none of these people seem to have a problem with Snapcaster Mage which was in every Miracles deck going back to day 1). Baleful Strix? Might as well be Kird Ape because you're TURNING IT SIDEWAYS OMG. It's a two-mana 1/1! If you're upset because creatures do other things now... Nekrataal and Man o War came out in like 1996. It's not all Deathrite Shaman's fault.

All the griping about creatures in muh control decks is just salt at all the top 8s not looking like old school events which tend to have 4-6 slots taken up by The Deck and other 4 Counterspell 4 Power Sink variants.


Sadly I have to agree with this. Miracles was a "control" deck but not nearly as controlling as something like Landstill was, since it used a soft lock and a series of cards that basically invalidated whatever your opponent was doing.

Yes, Miracles was always a prison deck, nice to see people finally admit that.


Without something like CounterTop, it's simply not sustainable to play a control strategy that's actually good enough to be considered tier one.

Replace CounterTop in this sentence with Chalice of the Void or Nether Void and no one would have considered Miracles control either because they aren't blue cards. Of course a deck that locks out with Chalice and then waits to resolve a threat can't possibly be control. A pox deck that grinds you out and wins with Cursed Scroll, not control.


You cannot claim that decks like Stoneblade are control decks, they are midrange decks with control elements, but they still maintain the ability to have a time bomb on the opponent, something that true control decks don't have.

Miracles' "clock" was the threat of ETA which was not exactly Mahamoti Djinn in mana efficiency or resistance to removal. A resolved ETA was game over in two turns or less most times and always had to be played around considering it could happen on your turn. Compare to Stoneforge fetching Batterskull which loses to creature or artifact removal, or hand disruption, with a 4-5 turn window. Entreat makes Morphling blush as a hard-to-deal-with threat.

And if it had been banned Monastery Mentor was right there to take its place, no one in the "all creatures are midrange dorks" camp seemed to really care about that card either.


Compare this to a deck like Cunning Wake.

This was a Standard deck. It is easy to play the Platonic ideal of a control deck when it's seeded in a smaller format. A creatureless deck won a standard pro tour like three years ago. The speed and texture of Legacy are quite different. The ideal draw-go control finisher these days is something like Vendilion Clique, but that has other weaknesses.

[Crimhead]

I can understand the want for creature-less control, but a deck running 4 Push, 4 Strix, some Snaps, a couple decay, some Jaces, and whatnot seems like control to me.
It's not about running creatures. It's about the function of the cards, not their type-lines.

Wall of Fog, BoP, Wall of Blossoms, etc are creatures, but not really capable of aggression. Goyf on the other hand is beat stick.

Creatures like Clique, Thalia, Snappy, Bob, Strix, etc are somewhere in between. The more of these you run (and the more other aggressive creatures (or equipment) you run with them, the less your deck is optimized by pushing for the late game. Aka, the less you play like a control deck, and the more you play like mid-ranged.

I can understand that people might not care; might be just as happy (or more so) if the control decks run a lot midrange elements. I just don't get how some people are denying that "hard control" is a unique style.

Regarding the shell you mentioned - I am hopeful that a Jace or Tezz deck will emerge.
A few Strix and Snappies are cool. But four of both of those plus four Revokers and a Thopter engine and Tezz's minus abilities - it's possible for this sort of deck to be built with a lot of aggression too.

It will be fun to see what lists end up rising to the top.

[btm10]

It's kind of surprising that so few people (some number less than 9) piloted Eldrazi. Makes sense on a level, but still interesting.

I'm ​not really that surprised. Delver (Grixis or BUG) is just a better anti-combo (as opposed to anti-Storm) deck than Eldrazi and is favored in the head-to-head in my experience. Eldrazi probably isn't even the best Chalice deck right now (that title likely goes to 4c Loam)

[Scott]

I'm ​not really that surprised. Delver (Grixis or BUG) is just a better anti-combo (as opposed to anti-Storm) deck than Eldrazi and is favored in the head-to-head in my experience. Eldrazi probably isn't even the best Chalice deck right now (that title likely goes to 4c Loam)

I more meant that Legacy players aren't always the quickest to switch decks, regardless of shifting meta considerations. It's pretty low representation for one of the more popular decks out there.

[tescrin]

It's not about running creatures. It's about the function of the cards, not their type-lines.


I agree with most of what you said, though I find it funny you've replied to my same post in three different posts haha.

If a Thopter Tezz deck that isn't Chalice based emerges and doesn't eat it to combo, you can bet I'll be running it.
I think it needs something like:
* Strix (3+)
* Revoker (3+)
* Thoptersword (3/2)
* Scroll Rack (1-2)

and it may be doable. The main issue comes from getting blue count high enough, artifact count high enough, and not being garbage. It may not be possible to have all the things.. but one day..

EDIT: Maybe 2xEntomb, 3-4 Agent, and 1xLoam could complete the main package.

[JDK]

I actually think actual "Control" is not viable in a format as powerful as Legacy. That's more of a pipe dream. Even when we had Landstill, one of the most controlish decks in history, it had an abyssmal combo matchup, and that was long before Griselbrand boosted combo like nothing before it.
Not only that, but while Miracles, Delver, BGx (Decay, DRS, Leovold), Elves and WW (Cavern) all got pretty blunt and brutal tools, Landstill did not. It's a fun deck, but it got left behind...hard. It's like Cinderella without a Faerie or a happy end. A step-child in a world full of spoilt brats.

[Hanni]

This is maybe somewhat of a shameless plug, and the deck itself may be too slow for Legacy these days, but BUG Intuition/Loam control (link to the thread in my sig) is a hard control deck that has some similar features to Miracles in the sense that it has a soft lock vs combo with Raven's Crime + Life from the Loam, and inevitability with either Worm Harvest or Depths/Stage.

It has tools to fight most things, with Burn/Sligh/UR Delver being the hardest matchups, but I think the pile could be refined to be at least somewhat competitive against most of the format.

Basically, what I am saying is, I don't believe hard control is dead in the format, but I do think that it's going to take a while before one emerges. The biggest challenge I see is with finishing games on time. Miracles had the ability to not go to time with competent pilots because Entreat/Mentor had amazing closing speed (for a Control deck), whereas something like the current suite of Planeswalkers are a really slow way to close a game out.

[Zombie]

Not only that, but while Miracles, Delver, BGx (Decay, DRS, Leovold), Elves and WW (Cavern) all got pretty blunt and brutal tools, Landstill did not. It's a fun deck, but it got left behind...hard. It's like Cinderella without a Faerie or a happy end. A step-child in a world full of spoilt brats.

Elves has a pretty hard time incorporating Cavern bigtime. The mana base is impressively rickety and inflexible for what is essentially a monocolored deck.

[Dr_D]

Not only that, but while Miracles, Delver, BGx (Decay, DRS, Leovold), Elves and WW (Cavern) all got pretty blunt and brutal tools, Landstill did not. It's a fun deck, but it got left behind...hard. It's like Cinderella without a Faerie or a happy end. A step-child in a world full of spoilt brats.

U/B Landstill got Fatal Push as well as things like Deluge and Flusterstorm. I like Landstill decks to be two colors only, and U/B has seemed pretty strong in the testing I've done so far.

[Hanni]

U/B Landstill got Fatal Push as well as things like Deluge and Flusterstorm. I like Landstill decks to be two colors only, and U/B has seemed pretty strong in the testing I've done so far.

I'm still skeptical that UB is better than UW. Swords to Plowshares is a better removal spell than Fatal Push for a control deck. Lifeloss is relevant to a control deck too, and for 1 more mana, you get an uncounterable Damnation instead of Toxic Deluge. I also think Humility is a really powerful card in Legacy right now, should you resolve it (or put it into play for free via an opponent's Show and Tell).

[Dr_D]

I'm still skeptical that UB is better than UW. Swords to Plowshares is a better removal spell than Fatal Push for a control deck. Lifeloss is relevant to a control deck too, and for 1 more mana, you get an uncounterable Damnation instead of Toxic Deluge. I also think Humility is a really powerful card in Legacy right now, should you resolve it (or put it into play for free via an opponent's Show and Tell).

That's a good point, I haven't tried U/W yet. I like to play Landstill with only 2 colors due to how many colorless lands you play. U/B also gets Tar Pit and Edict, but I'm not sure if that's better than just playing swords and verdict like you mentioned.

[H]

I also think Humility is a really powerful card in Legacy right now, should you resolve it (or put it into play for free via an opponent's Show and Tell).

Made even better when people misunderstand how Mishra's Factory works with Humility.

[JDK]

Elves has a pretty hard time incorporating Cavern bigtime. The mana base is impressively rickety and inflexible for what is essentially a monocolored deck.
And yet it's a card which makes your control elements worse, unless you have access to a 1-mana Wrath or a flexible infinite counterspell engine.


U/B Landstill got Fatal Push as well as things like Deluge and Flusterstorm.
BUG Decks got access to those as well, in addition to the other, really busted 'new' cards. Besides, Push essentially doesn't do much more than a Bolt in most situations (and it slows down your clock).

[CptHaddock]

Made even better when people misunderstand how Mishra's Factory works with Humility.

Or magus under humility, or layers in general.

Agreed on the humility comment though, I think it's very very good right now considering the most played form of enchantment removal only targets things <=3 cmc.

[maharis]

This is maybe somewhat of a shameless plug, and the deck itself may be too slow for Legacy these days, but BUG Intuition/Loam control (link to the thread in my sig) is a hard control deck that has some similar features to Miracles in the sense that it has a soft lock vs combo with Raven's Crime + Life from the Loam, and inevitability with either Worm Harvest or Depths/Stage.

It has tools to fight most things, with Burn/Sligh/UR Delver being the hardest matchups, but I think the pile could be refined to be at least somewhat competitive against most of the format.

Basically, what I am saying is, I don't believe hard control is dead in the format, but I do think that it's going to take a while before one emerges. The biggest challenge I see is with finishing games on time. Miracles had the ability to not go to time with competent pilots because Entreat/Mentor had amazing closing speed (for a Control deck), whereas something like the current suite of Planeswalkers are a really slow way to close a game out.

Well, there's a lot of space between "dead" and "not automatically favored against almost every deck"

Miracles was the latter, and now that it's gone, control decks that aren't 60%+ vs the format will emerge. There is still plenty of room for slower decks but you aren't just going to derp into a win as often with them. Winning with a control deck will once again reward deckbuilding choices and metagame knowledge, as well as in-game play skill, rather than resolving haymaker after haymaker.

Personally I find it a lot more rewarding and the BUG deck you're talking about sounds like a ton of fun.