5c Tricky Slivers

[Memories of the Time]

Hello to everybody.
Yes, this is another Slivers topic: i've read all the other ones without founding anything really similar to this deck: for sure, not the Primer about CounterSliver, that are an entirely different gameplan and list.

I've fallen in love with this deck years ago, before the print of Mentor and the evolution of Miracle: what i've loved since the first moment is the great amount of tricks that you can do, the flexibility and the amusement of many cards inside it.

Differently from Countersliver, this is a Control/Combo deck that reminds me my old love, Most and other SOTF.deck: a huge amount of tricky and synergic creatures that can build a progressively amazing board. I'm posting this thread to gather suggestions and ideas, because this deck exemplify the most entertaining and stimulation way to play for me.

Yes, i've tried Aether Vial but now i've cut it for now to reduce the n°of non-creature slots and try to reduce variance while rising targets for Company. I'm also thinking about Drs/Bop, with a very different manabase of course.

The crux of the deck is playing a big number of CC1 slivers+ 5-8 Dorks Sliver to develop an unmanageable board, while founding silver bullets to deal with the situation.

I'll start with the skeleton:

7-10 CC1 Slivers

A very important point: we need a relatively great amount of these, to exploit Dorks-slivers on T2. We have to chose between three possibilities:
-Mindlash Sliver: My favorite one, because it give us the immediate opportunity of having a strong weapon against many combo and strategies, while ensuring a soft lock since we can discard istant-speed.
-Striking Sliver: First strike is huge with Shroud, since we can easily kill creatures with mass-blocking without fearing a removal and a blow-out. It can give us a very helpful amount of time
-Galerider Sliver: The classic one, even if in a non-aggro version it's usefull especially for dealing with PW and block delver.

5-8 Dorks:

Manaweft Sliver and Gemhide Sliver: same card, their number depends on the manabase and the n° of dorks. Above 4 for sure.

4-10 The King who protect us all

Crystalline Sliver: if possible, it's even more broken/necessary here. So important that one of the point i'm wondering is what side Sliver choose with him.

Clot Sliver
Crypt Sliver
Sedge Sliver

Crypt is perfectly in curve, but it's a non-bo with Crystalline. Sedge it's very great, but needs the right mana and a swamp to be truly effective.

Diffusion Sliver
Opaline Sliver
Hibernation Sliver

Different abilities to integrate Crystalline: Now that Miracle is gone we probably don't need so many Hibernation, while Diffusion is usefull only in the early game.


This is the core of the deck

Now, we have already many choices to take, but we haven't reached my crux yet.

20: manabase
Cavern of Souls
Sliver Hive
Reflecting Pool

The core of a pentacolor sliver deck: for this version, Hive is far better than Mutavault for example, since i've used the last ability many times.
And Reflecting Pool is perfect when you have 8 free pentacolor lands: anyway, this could be changed depending on the colors we will choose.

Tutors and Bombs

Recruiter of the Guard
Eladamri's Call
Chord of Calling
Collected Company
Homing Sliver
Nissa, steward of elements
Sylvan Library

Another important point: all choices are valid and obviously linked between themselves: Company needs Homing or Recruiter and so on. Recruiter is very good to fetch not-only sliver silver bullet =D like Sanctum Prelate, Magus of the Moon ecc.

Silver Bullets:

Bonescythe Sliver
Magma Sliver
Sliver Legion
Mirror Entity
Dormant Sliver
Harmonic Sliver
Necrotic Sliver
Syphon Sliver
Telekinetic Sliver

A rough draft of the bullets we can choose, but there is also the combo Quilled Sliver+Venom Sliver and so on. Venom is also very good with Striking, for obvious reasons.

As you can see, the main point is to assemble a list with the right proportion of everything, especially the manabase and the colors. For example, Sedge Sliver is amazing, but can we rely on him? Etc...
I'm leaving my actual list for reference:

// 60 Mazzo
// 35 Creature
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Gemhide Sliver
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Telekinetic Sliver
1 Dormant Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
3 Manaweft Sliver
1 Bonescythe Sliver
1 Muscle Sliver
4 Mindlash Sliver
1 Syphon Sliver
1 Mirror Entity
1 Sanctum Prelate
4 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Necrotic Sliver
3 Sedge Sliver

// 1 Enchantment
1 Sylvan Library

// 4 Instant
4 Collected Company

// 20 Land
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Tropical Island
4 Sliver Hive
2 Reflecting Pool
1 Savannah
1 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Underground Sea


// 15 Sideboard
// 7 Creature
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Magus of the Moon
SB: 1 Caller of the Claw
SB: 3 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Sanctum Prelate

// 3 Enchantment
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers

// 5 Instant
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Flusterstorm

[nimkee]

I played a 20 land 4 vial 4 FoW 33 Sliver deck for awhile and it was obnoxious. It seemed heavily favored against all non burn fair decks, but combo matches were iffy. Board was all hatebears plus some surgicals and macabre for faster combo. I also ran images main which help agaibst sneak varieties.

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[Memories of the Time]

I played a 20 land 4 vial 4 FoW 33 Sliver deck for awhile and it was obnoxious. It seemed heavily favored against all non burn fair decks, but combo matches were iffy. Board was all hatebears plus some surgicals and macabre for faster combo. I also ran images main which help agaibst sneak varieties.

Yep, but that's totally another deck. This one can count on 4 Mindlash MB+Possibility to lock-out your oppo (es, Sneak) with Telekinetic, sanctum prelate ecc. What i'm searching there is the best configuration between cc1, dorks/mana ecc to find how good this deck could be =D

[Curby]

Have you playtested this against anything? What were your results?

It seems too wide to be an effective control deck. Keep in mind that Control decks function off card advantage, and most everything here only makes parity (Necrotic) or even represents card disadvantage (Mindlash). Things that actually grant virtual card advantage are just borrowed from Death and Taxes lists (Prelate/Teeg/Revoker).

As a side effect of being so wide, the deck folds to Terminus and Toxic Deluge, and has no way to protect its non-sliver control elements. I think Slivers are best positioned as an aggro-control tribe, and only then when it can make use of its various colors for utility and support spells (as otherwise you'd be playing Merfolk).

You can make any number of fun brews with Slivers, but the goal of getting competitive with Sliver board control seems like a serious stretch. I'd be happy to be proven wrong though!

[Memories of the Time]

First of all, thx for the reply and the suggestions =)

@Tests: First problem of the deck, the high variance. I've won against almost every tier but i've also lost many games without seeing a path. For example you can say that Combo is a bad MU, but if you can start with a Mindlash you are really well-positioned: the big exception is Elves, btw. Similar problem with other tiers, like delver: i've both won and lost game very easily.

@CA: One thing for sure, it's not one of the big problems of the deck. Just for saying, with Dormant you can easily draw 2-3 cards a turn, but at that point you probably just want to win with Mirror Entity.

@Wide: Yes, this is a problem, obv. Previous versions (when top wasn't banned) played 3-4 Hibernation Sliver, now i've cut them but if Miracle will still be a thing they can return. You have just a 1x of non-sliver element MD: the g1 silver bullets against Combo, now it's Prelate.

A thing this deck really miss is a Sliver like Gemhide but cc1, for example: in this case you could play gsz and cradle and it would be a huge improvment.

[Weapon X]

Well the reason countersliver can work is that it basically runs all the core slvers you should be playing. Any list for slivers that doesn't include:
4 galerider sliver
4 crystalline sliver
4 muscle sliver
4 sinew sliver
4 predatory sliver
I would question immediately. Those are essentially the reason to play slivers especially with winged sliver getting an upgrade. From there you can build a deck, but a lot of the newer slivers don't work with crystalline and a lot are just bad to begin with.

Beyond that bit of advice I'm not really sure what you are trying to accomplish so I can't suggest much more at this time.

[Memories of the Time]

From there you can build a deck, but a lot of the newer slivers don't work with crystalline and a lot are just bad to begin with.

Beyond that bit of advice I'm not really sure what you are trying to accomplish so I can't suggest much more at this time.

No, you don't need lords almost at all when you can easily make an alpha strike with Mirror Entity/Magma Sliver/Sliver Legion/Boneshyte and so on. A single lord is actually a good choice to prevent Golgari Charm and stabilize the board untill you can do one of your gg things.

As said, this is not an aggro deck, at all: it's a control-prison deck with many tricks and broken plays and many possibilities for an alpha strike. It's more similar to old Sotf decks, for example ^^

[Weapon X]

Playing over costed spells is not really the place any competitive deck in legacy wants to be though. You are also light on control/prison so that can't be what you are trying to do. The draw to slivers is that it is like a fish deck but you get access to other colours. 2 cmc is also the bread and butter of the archetype, it's what makes vial an option. Also keeping up mana for other spells isn't bad. Mirror entity is ok, but in a deck where mana can be an issue, it won't be as reliable as a collected company into lords.

You haven't convinced me to stray at all from those core slivers especially when it sounds like you want to play counter sliver with worse cards.

[Curby]

Countertop Miracles controlled the stack, and had sweepers to control the board. Topless Miracles increases control of the topdeck. D&T crimps an opponent's mana. Stax and Stompy builds prevent you from casting anything at all.

This list doesn't seem to have any concrete direction or focus. Decide your strategy (generically saying "this is a control deck" doesn't count) and then add cards that directly implement that strategy. You'll end up with something more cohesive, and less like the pile of slivers your friend in high school used to play.

HTH.

[Memories of the Time]

You haven't convinced me to stray at all from those core slivers especially when it sounds like you want to play counter sliver with worse cards.

I don't get it, boss: this deck and counter sliver are very different, and the second one is clearly more optimized and better, now. No doubt.
This is more similar to sotf/elves deck, with more flexibility and less power obv.

[Weapon X]

I think we're looking at different lists then chief. This does not have me thinking of survival or elves at all. I honestly don't know what you're considering flexibility, because I'm not seeing that. I'm even more lost on the prison/control side.

[Memories of the Time]

I think we're looking at different lists then chief. This does not have me thinking of survival or elves at all. I honestly don't know what you're considering flexibility, because I'm not seeing that. I'm even more lost on the prison/control side.

Compare the list in the OP to any other Counter Sliver list.
In this deck, you have an answer for basically everything: just one example, Telekinetic against Sneak & Show or control.deck. I've played survival.deck untill the ban and then other rouge deck revolving around Fauna Shaman or Birthing Pod, and this is the deck that exemplify that way at the best (sadly, not solidly): many synergic creatures with flexible singletons that can win alone MU, high problem against mass removal.

[Curby]

with more flexibility

In this deck, you have an answer for basically everything

You seem to think that flexibility is a selling point. In this case, I disagree. As I wrote before:


This list doesn't seem to have any concrete direction or focus. Decide your strategy (generically saying "this is a control deck" doesn't count) and then add cards that directly implement that strategy. You'll end up with something more cohesive, and less like the pile of slivers your friend in high school used to play.

There's a reason people don't play highlander/singleton decks in Legacy: sure you can run a deck that could conceivably answer any threat, but have fun durdling about searching for that solution as you get beaten over the head.

Flexibility is great in something like Terminus (when run in the appropriate shell). It's one card that answers big creatures, small creatures, creatures with protection, etc. You can run multiples which increases the chances you'll see it, and you'll be able to use any of those copies to answer any creature-based strategy.

Flexibility is NOT great in this case because you need different cards to answer different strategies. This restricts you to running fewer copies of each answer, and forcing you to race every opponent to find the right answer before they can implement their gameplan. (Hint: you'll usually lose that race when facing competitive decks.)

No single deck beats all other decks, so you're not the only one that has to find a gameplan and stick to it. The key is that in contrast to the list you posted, you do in fact need to find a gameplan and stick to it. Well, either that or lose to yourself because you'll always draw the wrong cards.

[Memories of the Time]

No single deck beats all other decks, so you're not the only one that has to find a gameplan and stick to it. The key is that in contrast to the list you posted, you do in fact need to find a gameplan and stick to it. Well, either that or lose to yourself because you'll always draw the wrong cards.

Following this reasoning, how is possibile that decks like Survival and Pod Fit has been competitive? Is your argument not applicable to them?
No, the point is the power level or the facility to do so, and obv this deck can't reach the old Sotf power (and i never claimed the contrary). I'm just searching to optimize this list

[Curby]

Aren't those more like aggro/combo decks? What control decks use toolbox strategies in the current meta? Death and Taxes used to run an Enlightened Tutor sideboard. No longer. Recruiter of the Guard was seen as a toolbox-enabling powerhouse for D&T. Now toolbox designs have been discarded in favor of more consistent designs, and Recruiters are often used to fetch missing staples instead of bullets. What about other control decks like Miracles? They could run Cunning and Burning Wish, but they don't.

To summarize, I think it will be difficult to create a competitive control deck where Sliver creatures are the control elements. I think it will be even harder to attempt that feat without narrowing your focus. But it doesn't matter what I think. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and I eagerly await evidence that such a strategy is viable.

[Memories of the Time]

Aren't those more like aggro/combo decks? What control decks use toolbox strategies in the current meta? Death and Taxes used to run an Enlightened Tutor sideboard. No longer. Recruiter of the Guard was seen as a toolbox-enabling powerhouse for D&T. Now toolbox designs have been discarded in favor of more consistent designs, and Recruiters are often used to fetch missing staples instead of bullets. What about other control decks like Miracles? They could run Cunning and Burning Wish, but they don't.

To summarize, I think it will be difficult to create a competitive control deck where Sliver creatures are the control elements. I think it will be even harder to attempt that feat without narrowing your focus. But it doesn't matter what I think. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and I eagerly await evidence that such a strategy is viable.

Consider that Bugx Pod, the most successful version, has its major problem in closing the game, so no =)

Obv it will be difficult, and probably this deck lacks one more good Sliver (for example, as said, a dork sliver cc1). But since it's so interesting and fun to play (and it's not so problematic/non competitive) i've started this thread to optimize the list =)

[aslidsiksoraksi]

well i agree with the general idea that you can't just count on getting the right sliver for the right matchup

if you want to fix the problem, perhaps you could play something that will tutor for a creature? That way you would be running an effect 5x of each silver bullet sliver, and that would give a much greater chance to have the right answer in the right situation. I'd suggest Worldy Tutor, but Chord of Calling or Birthing Pod might also be useful?

Mindlash is interesting, but I'd really want to have a way to make tokens effectively (not for 5 mana off the Hive) in order to use it best. Otherwise you're going to end up draining both your field and your own hand to drain their hand and the net result is (at least in theory) that both of you end up hellbent while you have an inferior board position cuz you sacced all your slivers. You mentioned getting a soft lock via discards on the draw step, but that costs effectively 6 mana a turn with Sliver Hive. Cheaper tokens could help, but unfortunately that seems to mean something unplayably expensive like Sliver Queen.