Stilljutsu - UB Ninja Still [Archive]

scaryrawr

05-31-2017, 02:33 AM

After playing in a few pauper tournaments, I've really fallen for ninjas...

Should be be Stilljutsu, Stillnobi, Still Silence???

After looking at common shells, it hit me the best shell (IMHO) for a serious ninja deck would be the UB Standstill list... also, ninjas so far have only been printed in blue and black.

This is my first attempt at a deck like this, and I hope to actually get good with it and tune it.

I kind of want to run Silent-blade Oni main in place of Ink-Eyes or Higure. Being non-legendary it avoids Karakas and his ability is pretty awesome if you get a hit. Another big thing is he pitches to Force of Will as odd as that sounds. I think the list would probably be better if Higure and Ink-Eyes were taken out for a 4th Snapcaster and Vendilion Clique, but that just doesn't sound as fun. Higure can actually be crazy helpful since it can guarantee ninjas getting through, and Ink-Eyes having regenerate can actually come up at times when trading with Tarmogoyfs or Batterskulls..

The awesome thing with this list is the fact you get to buy back your Spellstutter Sprites and Snapcaster Mages.

Our main board is a pretty standard with the exception of ninjas thrown in. One of our big draw engines is Ninja of the Deep Hours which we can actually get out even with a Standstill in play. The Ninjutsu mechanic can get pretty crazy if you shortcut things since it can only be activated after the declare blockers phase, and before moving on to the second main. That means if an opponent tries to Lightning Bolt one of your creatures mid combat, it's really important to be in a spot where you really know if you can ninja that creature out or not. Other nifty tricks are that Maze of Ith does not stop a creature from attacking (it just prevents the damage and untaps it), which means you can still ninja that creature back out, and if you have enough mana, ninja it back in.

Main
16 Creatures

4 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
3 Mistblade Shinobi
1 Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni
1 Higure, the Still Wind

17 Sorcery/Instants

4 Brainstorm
4 Fatal Push
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Counterspell

4 Artifacts/Enchantments

1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Standstill

23 Lands

1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
2 Swamp
3 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Flooded Strand

15 Side Board

2 Flusterstorm
3 Skullsnatcher
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Sakashima's Student
1 Pithing Needle
1 Silent-blade Oni
2 Throat Slitter
1 Invasive Surgery

The side board is a little odd right now, and then packed with some powerful side board technology, the non ninja cards are actually pretty serious side board tech. The Ninja's are there for utility and to apply more pressure on the opponent. Skullsnatcher is definitely useful against graveyard based strategies, the downside is he can only trigger during your turn. Sakashima's Student I think is a very cheap and efficient clone, which is useful against some of the bigger threats out there. Throat Slitter is extra creature removal.

Jayfranck

05-31-2017, 05:05 AM

My 2 cents:
Pretty sure u want to play some number of baleful strix, I would cut all ninjas but deep hour (they feel a little underwhelming) now if u want to play a 1 drop I'll choose the faerie miscreant or the evergreen DRS but not sure if some discard, like thoughtseize, would just be better.

U definitely want mutavoult for spellscutter as well.

Hope this helps.

Doishy

05-31-2017, 05:29 AM

scaryrawr

05-31-2017, 11:38 AM

I like the inclusion of mistblade Shinobi as it can clear away an opponents chance to race you even under standstill. I am not actually sure you need any of the more expensive Ninjas. Standstill is a grindy strategy and it might be better to dedicate those slots to more permission?

They were actually thrown in originally as a joke (my friends said if I build the deck I have to run Ink-Eyes), but Ink-Eyes has been a really good heavy hitter late game, I do agree more permission would probably be better, I was thinking in the form of the 4th snapcaster though through the flash back? or is that too greedy? I was thinking if I remove those 2, I should up the snapcaster and add vendilion clique, but it might be better to add another counterspell and spell pierce?

I really like the Mistblade bounce their last guy, jam standstill interaction lol.

My 2 cents:
Pretty sure u want to play some number of baleful strix, I would cut all ninjas but deep hour (they feel a little underwhelming) now if u want to play a 1 drop I'll choose the faerie miscreant or the evergreen DRS but not sure if some discard, like thoughtseize, would just be better.

U definitely want mutavoult for spellscutter as well.

Hope this helps.

Thanks! I've definitely been considering Thoughtseize and Baleful Strix, Faerie Miscreant I feel doesn't do enough on its own. I feel I want at least 8 ninjas though, Mistblade being a 1/1 is what I think makes it underwhelming, but the bounce effect I think is very impactful, also being able to cheaply buy back spellstutter sprite early game gets so much more value out of the sprite.

I'll definitely try out Mutavault, I like the thought of being able to have it animate itself and flash spellstutter sprite for a stronger early game.

Thanks for the suggestions!

kombatkiwi

05-31-2017, 11:56 AM

scaryrawr

05-31-2017, 12:49 PM

The realization that the Silent Blade Oni trigger pops your own standstill has killed my boner for this deck
I think that playing a couple of Ninjas in a more normal standstill deck is possibly fine but if you are attacking unblocked with factory/snap under a standstill aren't you already winning anyway?

Silent-Blade Oni is a may trigger, so you only really break standstill with it if you want to.

Also, yes... Turns out standstill is pretty good without ninjas, the goal of this is to have the ninjas though.

PirateKing

05-31-2017, 03:36 PM

scaryrawr

05-31-2017, 05:51 PM

I don't get the buyback part. Is the assumption that Mistblade Shinobi lets you return your own creatures to your hand? Because it's only the person you dealt combat damage to, which should never be to yourself.

No, the buy back is part of the ninjutsu cost.

:1::0::1:Return an unblocked attacker you control to hand: Put this card onto the battlefield from your hand tapped and attacking.

Memories of the Time

06-01-2017, 05:32 AM

Baleful Strix is really too good to not be played, c'mon, it's perfect for this deck.
And a Standstill deck with Black but without DRS...

PirateKing

06-01-2017, 07:07 AM

No, the buy back is part of the ninjutsu cost.

Of course! Okay, you've got my interest now.

Doishy

06-01-2017, 10:01 AM

Baleful Strix is really too good to not be played, c'mon, it's perfect for this deck.
And a Standstill deck with Black but without DRS...

Well DRS is not always needed.
I always envision Standstill with the aim of T1 - Stop first interaction (Either Kill spell, discard spell or hold a counter), T2 Standstill wherever possible. Yes, it is often you would want to have a counter or protection to allow SS to stick however if they hold up the possibility of that, you can always wait (as this is a deck about pro-actively waiting). I think DRS just opens you up to either having it get killed (loss of tempo) or allowing the opponent to get a foot on the ground early (which you don't want).

scaryrawr

06-01-2017, 01:48 PM

Of course! Okay, you've got my interest now.

Can the Pirate King really be interested in ninjas? jk jk.

Well DRS is not always needed.
I always envision Standstill with the aim of T1 - Stop first interaction (Either Kill spell, discard spell or hold a counter), T2 Standstill wherever possible. Yes, it is often you would want to have a counter or protection to allow SS to stick however if they hold up the possibility of that, you can always wait (as this is a deck about pro-actively waiting). I think DRS just opens you up to either having it get killed (loss of tempo) or allowing the opponent to get a foot on the ground early (which you don't want).

I agree about not including DRS in this deck, like you said, our main goal is to prevent our opponent from getting board state so we can jam Standstill at some point. If you look at a lot of the normal UB Standstill (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-u-b-landstill#paper) lists, they don't really run DRS either, but I feel they do have more 1 mana permission spells, which may make us a little weaker not having those.

A lot of my spell choices are kind of based off of this WUR list from aznfoodgood (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/605824#paper), but instead of the Stoneforge package, we're going with a Ninjutsu package, and trying to take more advantage of the fact we get our Snapcasters and Spellstutter Sprites back (which is why I think we can kind of get away with not having so many 1cc interaction spells). Our mana base is a lot less greedy though, but I think our early fight is very much the same.

rufus

06-01-2017, 02:38 PM

There's an old "rat deck" concept which runs ETB creatures plus ninjutsu, but Corrupt Court Official and Ravenous Rats probably aren't enough of a value train these days.

scaryrawr

06-02-2017, 02:46 AM

I tried out Mutavault in some play tests with friends before the weekly, they felt very underwhelming compared to Mishra's Factory.

Played in a weekly, went 2-1-1 today.

2-0 Portent Miracles
Turns out Spellstutter Sprite is amazing against cantrips and Swords to Plowshares. They also cannot play under Standstill.

Game 1, Ninjas were a no show, but Sprite and Factory are the real deal.

Side boarding: They're really light on creatures, so I didn't feel I needed the removal package.
In:

2 Flusterstorm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Invasive Surgery
3 Skullsnatcher

Out:

3 Mistblade Shinobi
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Fatal Push

Skullsnatcher I feel is better than Mistblade in this match up, since it can cut off their Snapcaster Mage, and is also more of a clock, I also feel we don't need too much removal, and are more worried about Jace, the Mind Sculptor.

2-1 Burn
Sprite works some magic, Umezawa's Jitte is really good here, and Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni packs a punch.

Game 1. Mulled to 5, only got to play lands until I died.

Side boarding:
In:

2 Flusterstorm
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Engineered Explosive
1 Pithing Needle
1 Throat Slitter

Out:

2 Diabolic Edict
1 Higure, the Still Wind
3 Mistblade Shinobi
1 Force of Will

A lot of their creatures have haste, so I felt Mistblade wasn't too good here, and Throat Slitter would be better. Pithing Needle is to hit Grim Lavamancer, Invasive Surgery for Lava Spike, Flame Rift, or Chain Lightning.

Game 2. Turn 1, played an EE on 1, didn't see a creature till much later game. Sprite and Factory were the clock until I got to ninja out Ninja of the Deep Hours He was able to land a Sulfuric Vortex but after I had a couple counters on Jitte (on a ninja, so much flavor...), so I was able to gain 4 life. Got more counters and killed his Eidolon with it and then Fatal Pushed a Guide. He ended up Fireblasting my Ninja when I swung for 7, but he couldn't follow up the following turn.

Game 3. Pretty crazy, lots of well timed Spell Pierce and Flusterstorms. Ended up ninjaing out Ink-Eyes which ended the game quickly with some counters to back it up.

1-2 Show&Tell
Game 1. I think game 1 went ideal with having the counters when needed, being able to get back Sprite for ninjas was a huge help at cutting off all his cantrips and drawing more cards.

Side boarding:
In:

2 Sakashima's Student
2 Flusterstorm
1 Pithing Needle
2 Throat Slitter
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Silent-Blade Oni

Out:

4 Fatal Push
1 Higure, the Still Wind
1 Ink-Eyes, Servent of Oni
2 Ninja of the Deep Hours
1 Umezawa's Jitte

I think taking out Ninja of the Deep Hours is a mistake, the card draw is really powerful. Silent-Blade Oni is being removed from the 75... and being replace with Vendilion Clique. Throat Slitter I feel can be really powerful for getting an Emrakul off the board. Sakashima's Student can copy any of their legendaries if played using ninjutsu (not off the show&tell). Oni, I thought would be awesome if I could draw out the game somehow and get out of his legendaries, I'm giving up on this dream.

Game 2. Had to mull, ended up with no permission spells. He had a turn 1 with force back up.

Game 3. Had the permission spells and a clock, he drew out one permission spell with a Cunning Wish which I think was just bait for it. The following turn he had Show and Tell into Omniscience into Emrakul. When he cast Show&Tell I had a Sprite in play with a Mistblade and Throat Slitter in hand. I put Mistblade into play hoping he was just going to Show&Tell in Emrakul and I could ninja out the sprite and destroy the Emrakul, I think this was a mistake, because what if he put in Griselbrand? I think it would have been better to try to bounce his creature with Mistblade if Omniscience wasn't there.

ID Scapeshift
We played for fun, I misplayed a ton, and I didn't realize he was scapeshift until it happened.

Side:
In:

3 Skullsnatcher
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
1 Silent-blade Oni
1 Invasive Surgery

Out:

2 Diabolic Edict
2 Fatal Push
3 Mistblade Shinobi
1 Higure, the Still Wind
1 Ink-Eyes, Servent of Oni

I messed up with exiling his graveyard, I forgot that Nic Fit tends to run Eternal Witness and he was able to get his enabler back into hand. I think this is one of the only match ups where you can get out Oni since you get basics off of Veteran explorer. Skullsnatcher is definitely great against decks that use the graveyard though.

This is the second time I've tried the deck in a weekly, and I feel it has potential, but is really expecting fair match ups. Oni is being replaced with a Clique in the side board. Sprites I feel are awesome. Ninja of the Deep Hours and Ink-Eyes I feel right now are the most well rounded ninjas in the deck (Ink-Eyes!). Skullsnatcher I really like in the side, as well as Throat Slitter, Sakashima's Student I haven't really gotten out yet, and I feel needs more testing, I think replacing him with Thoughtseize might be correct. Mistblade in some match ups is underwhelming, mostly from the fact he's a 1/1, but definitely makes you feel more secure, especially being the cheapest way to buy back Sprite and Snapcaster.

mistercakes

06-02-2017, 04:37 AM

I played ninja still a lot when it was legal in the old extended format. I recall stifle being played there and it was very powerful.

Others worth mentioning were ornithopter, mothdust changling and swarmyard (deck played mutavault)

Whitefaces

06-02-2017, 05:20 AM

scaryrawr

06-02-2017, 10:09 AM

I absolutely love this idea! I mentioned Ninja of the Deep Hours for UB Landstill to some friends a couple of weeks ago, but they kind of laughed at me :P I need to pick a few more up, but I'd like to give this a go for sure.

How are the bigger ninjas (Higura, Ink Eyes etc) performing? I think my first idea for a list just had four Deep Hours and a couple of Mistblades so not as deep on ninjas as you.

The ninja package I feel that is super solid are the 4 Ninja of the Deep Hours and the 1 of Ink-Eyes. Mistblade is very match up dependent, taking him out for more removal or permission spells I think may improve the list, but at the same time makes it harder to get back your Sprites and Snapcasters (which you may not need to get back so aggressively if you have more removal/permission). I think normal UB Standstill with just Ninja of the Deep Hours is the solid way to go if you want ninjas. UB Standstill is so good, Deep Hours being 2/2 and getting back snapcaster I think has a lot of value, plus the card draw.

Ink-Eyes has been an amazing performer (which surprised me), she was put in there cause I was told if I'm playing a ninja deck, it has to have Ink-Eyes. The big thing is the 5 power and Regenerate for 1B. Being able to trade with Batterskull, Tarmogoyf, Gurmag Angler, Reality Smasher and staying on the table.

Higure's ability seems sweet on paper, but in practice, he doesn't feel worthwhile as a 3/4 for 2UU. I think if his ninjutsu cost was 3, he'd be amazing. So I'm thinking a vendilion clique here would be better (or just another permission spell, or the 4th Standstill), but I still want to try him out more just to confirm.

I played ninja still a lot when it was legal in the old extended format. I recall stifle being played there and it was very powerful.

Others worth mentioning were ornithopter, mothdust changling and swarmyard (deck played mutavault)

I've seen some older lists running Ornithopter and other cheap fliers, but I don't feel you get enough value from getting an Ornithopter back in your hand, I think maybe if you're just trying to power out a ninja every turn?

Did the list play Stifle, or just Stifle can hit ninjutsu? I saw older standstill lists use to play stifle, but the newer ones don't. I think it's because even if you mana denial your opponent, while standstill is out they can just keep doing "Draw-Land-Go" with you for a bit, and fetch "safely" while standstill is out. I haven't played too much standstill until this week, so I may be wrong (I can't find too many standstill videos either to see how people play it and build around it).

danyul

06-02-2017, 11:09 AM

http://i.imgur.com/uUTwOAX.jpg?1

$15 bucks to give this a spin?

Ninja please.

Whitefaces

06-02-2017, 11:18 AM

Haha, I just ordered the few bits I'm missing too :cool:

Edit:

I think I'll try something along these lines first

4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Ninja of the Deep Hours
1 Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni
3 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Diabolic Edict
4 Brainstorm
4 Fatal Push
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
3 Standstill
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Underground Sea
3 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Wasteland

owerbart

06-03-2017, 11:35 AM

hymnyou

06-03-2017, 12:34 PM

Stoked to see ninja thread. Some ninja talk (pre-ban) and history on ninjas in Legacy at 1:15:55 - 1:24:32

http://www.eternalcentral.com/tusk-talk-podcast-episode-10-conspiracy-2/

scaryrawr

06-03-2017, 01:23 PM

I played UWR Ninjas for a while and deck felt really good. I wasn't on the standstill plan, but just as an advice, two-mana removal can sometimes be akward (advantage of UWR was having both STP+Bolt) with ninjutsu. Mistblade Shinobi is a no-go, it doesn't work as good as it feels. A card that has surprisingly good value in these builds is Augur of Bolas. Great two drop that can find you a removal spell + you can rebuy it with ninjutsu for insane value.

Yeah, I found this out last night about Mistblade, my creature base was:

4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
2 Mistblade Shinobi
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni

Ink-Eyes still feels good, Mistblade feels good the first time he hits... then he kind of sits there. I think it's mainly the 1/1 body, it's not scary to block.

I've definitely been thinking about a color splash for more 1 drop interaction, but I feel it's mostly me being bad at Landstill at the moment lol, and being too deep into the ninja plan lol. I'm planing on running a more serious sideboard now, and I think just the Deep Hours and Ink-Eyes main. I've also been wondering if Force Spike would be a good addition, the first couple turns are so important to get this deck going.

scaryrawr

06-03-2017, 02:29 PM

Stoked to see ninja thread. Some ninja talk (pre-ban) and history on ninjas in Legacy at 1:15:55 - 1:24:32

http://www.eternalcentral.com/tusk-talk-podcast-episode-10-conspiracy-2/

That was funny to listen to, I hope they bring back ninjutsu in future sets.

scaryrawr

06-08-2017, 01:25 PM

I was watching whitefaces stream and brew with Ninjas, and it got me thinking. Even though, Ninjutsu works without breaking Standstill, I feel we have a lack of early game business spells, he brewed a UB Ninja control type list, didn't see it in a league, but he did play a few games with it. Here's a screenshot of some stuff he had in towards the end:
http://i.imgur.com/BVesX8Y.png

I'm going to try something similar, but with a red splash for Bolts and Kolaghan's Command. I'll edit this post later with the list and how it went.

Whitefaces

06-08-2017, 02:14 PM

This was so much fun to play :laugh:

Red splash sounds nice, the manabase shouldn't be too hard. Looking forward to seeing what you come up with!

EDIT: I feel like this image needs to be shared too :cool:

http://i.imgur.com/EJFN9t1.jpg?1

Memories of the Time

06-08-2017, 02:57 PM

So no more Standstill? Probably without manland red is very easy to add

scaryrawr

06-09-2017, 10:42 AM

So no more Standstill? Probably without manland red is very easy to add

Yeah... I really like that Ninjas can play under Standstill, but trying it out, I feel they take up the same slots in the deck, so your consistency is really thrown off. Edit: I still want to try it though, I'm just thinking of how to modify it so we have enough business spells, and enough creatures to get ninjas and value.

So! Grixis Ninja Control - Shiny Greninja -
http://i.imgur.com/AX3BRye.png

Main

9 Ninja Enablers

3 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Spellstutter Sprite

8 Ninjas

4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
1 Throat Slitter
1 Okiba-Gang Shinobi
1 Higure, the Still Wind
1 Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni

22 Instants/Sorceries

4 Brainstorm
1 Night's Whisper
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Thoughtseize
1 Forked Bolt
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Fatal Push
1 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

1 Artifact

1 Umezawa's Jitte

20 Lands

2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
3 Wasteland

Side

2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Mistblade Shinobi
2 Skullsnatcher
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Damnation
1 Thoughtseize

Tonight I went 2-2, but the list felt a lot more solid.

0-2 Elves
2-1 Soldier Stompy
2-1 UWr Prison - RIP-Helm Control
0-2 Grixis Control (Punted game 1 horribly)

I also played some fun games against UWr Standstill, karakas is good against the legendaries. I think that with the bolts and pushes, it might be good to cut some, and put in a couple ponder or maybe more permission? and the Night's Whisper maybe a Painful Truths?

Edit: I'm really bad with Thoughtseize which is why I think I lost a few of the games...

Edit 2:
Some notes.
Having all the early game removal was awesome. Things that Fatal Push had trouble removing, Bolt seemed to hit just fine, and vice-versa. Higure was surprisingly good. Being able to clear the way early, and then being able to make dudes unblockable, as well as tutor for other ninjas, I kind of found myself going Higure, fetch Okiba-Gang Shinobi or Throat Slitter (Ninja of the Deep Hours if the other ones weren't useful at the time). Kolaghan's Command was really powerful, being able to buy back creatures, destroy artifacts, make players discard, etc.

Also, I feel it's best to not cast Ninjas even if you can... They really have to be dealt with, and playing them into a counterspell feels so bad...

I'm thinking maybe I can get Standstill back into the deck... (I wrote this up at midnight last night, so was really tired).
I think take out 1 Wasteland, 1 Spellstutter Sprite, 1 Okiba-Gang (lets be real, he's probably the least effective), 1 Forked Bolt, 1 Fatal Push, 1 Night's Whisper, 1 Kolaghan's Command, and put in 4 Mishra's Factory, 3 Standstill? Hm...

Kanti

06-09-2017, 11:11 AM

scaryrawr

06-10-2017, 12:04 PM

4 Ornithopter
4 Mothdust Changeling
4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
2 Mistblade Shinobi
2 Trinket Mage

4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Aether Vial
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Ponder
1 Dismember
1 Echoing Truth
1 Pithing Needle
1 Shuriken
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Chrome Mox

1 Blinkmoth Nexus
1 Faerie Conclave
5 Island
5 Snow-Covered Island
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Pendelhaven
1 Riptide Laboratory
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Swarmyard
1 Tolaria West

maybe a green splash for Goyf? Would add a little beef. Also Mistbind Clique seems hot here.

I think the splash should be one of the strong removal colors. If you splash white in this list, you get access to Spell Queller as well as Swords to Plowshares and Council's Judgement. If you want to stay mono blue, Cryptic Serpent is a new heavy hitter, but I'm not sure you have enough Instants/Sorceries to really enable him, but in Landstill decks, I think it's fine for him to cost a little more than normal later game (Whitefaces and I throw in Ink-Eyes for fun). Jace, the Mind Sculptor isn't a creature, but if you gain control of the board, he can help maintain control as well as bounce your own Spellstutter Sprite if you have to.

Mistbind Clique looks like a heavy hitter to me, as well as Vendilion Clique.

My biggest worry with the list though is the amount of ways you have early game interaction, there's a lot of Elves running around as well as Delver. I also feel a few of the creatures you don't get enough value out of, they enable you to ninja, but I'm not sure that's enough.

Whitefaces

06-13-2017, 08:12 PM

I forgot to mention I also played the list I posted on the previous page at my LGS last week to a 4-0 finish, playing vs High Tide 2-0, Burn 2-0, Lands 2-0 and ANT 2-1.

Played the below today to a 3-0-1 finish vs BUG Midrange 2-1, Punishing Thieves 1-1, Spanish Inquisition 2-1 and Lands 2-0.

It's probably more apt to call it FaerieStill, though, as there's a few less Ninjas than before (or maybe they're just hiding!?). It's feeling pretty decent actually!

4 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Ninja of the Deep Hours
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Standstill

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Fatal Push
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Thoughtseize
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
1 Toxic Deluge

4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
3 Island
1 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand

SB:
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Invasive Surgery
2 Flusterstorm
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Submerge
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Hydroblast

Erdvermampfa

06-14-2017, 02:18 AM

Whitefaces

06-14-2017, 05:18 AM

Standstill and Ninja of the deep hours are two cards that at first glance may seem to fit together, but in reality they just don't. In fact they rather exclude each other mutually because they serve the same purpose, i.e. generating card advantage and playing them both is just unnecessary and wastes valuable deck space. There are way better methods of forcing your opponent to trigger Standstill with manlands probably being the best. Since Ninja of the Deep hours is the primary reason to build on Ninjas in the first place and because it is, if we were honest, a severly lacking card from more than a decade ago, I suggest to abandon the Ninja deck idea because it sucks. Think about it, would a Grizzly Bear with inbuilt cantrip be considered worthwhile by today's standards? I think the gradually decreasing numbers of Ninjas in the deck lists posted here corroborate my argument.

I agree with your first point to an extent, Ninja and SS can play a similar role, but it's not as black and white as that. Ninja is additional pressure to pull much further ahead than usual under a SS, as well as another angle for the deck to attack on and generate card advantage (which is the main reason I've been liking it).

I'm not going to lie, I built the deck first for fun, but Ninja has been impressive as a standalone card, especially with the synergy of bouncing back Sprites, Snapcasters and Cliques. To call Ninja unnecessary and a waste of deck space for the reasons you give is simply wrong, it's obviously not just a grizzly bear with Curiosity either as it would essentially have haste and give you a Spellstutter Sprite or Snapcaster Mage too. Is it good enough? Maybe not, but it's at times been way better than a Standstill could be. I suggest giving the deck a try!

scaryrawr

07-04-2017, 03:33 AM

Went 3-1 at Card Kingdom tonight with a very Ninja Pile list.

Main

3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Baleful Strix
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Ninja of the Deep Hours
1 Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
3 Fatal Push
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Terminate
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Night's Whisper
2 Thoughtseize

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta

Side

2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Hydroblast
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Night's Whisper
1 Thoughtseize

Round 1 - Jund
Game 1, He kept a 2 lander and just never saw more lands
Game 2, I kept a greedy hand banking on a Brainstorm, he thoughtseized me and that just set the tone...
Game 3, We both made our land drops, but he got stuck waiting for double black. Misplayed Kolaghan's Commanding his face, when I should have killed a deathrite, I had 2 Snapcasters and he was at 6, he ended up trading and clearing my board and he played a Lili... Luckily I was able to Strix into Strix and get him down.

Round 2 - Jeskai Stonestill (Dude Ranch) - Currently available on the stream (games 2 & 3).
Game 1, He got there, I take care of an early stoneforge, but he's able to just get there with a SoFI and Factories.
Game 2, I'm able to get board presence and ahead on cards. Land a Jace and take over the board, he scoops.
Game 3, Super well timed draws and I just kind of stay ahead. He almost catches up at one point with a SoFI which I take care of with EE.

Round 3 - BUG Delver
Game 1, Mull to 5, try keeping up... I almost stabilize at 1. He top decks a deathrite, I draw a blank.
Game 2, I keep a Fatal Push, Ninja of the Deep hours, 5 Lands (I don't know what I was thinking...). He thoughtseizes taking Fatal Push... yeah #punt

Round 4 - MUD
Game 1, He plays a Metalworker... I try finding an answer, none are found.
Game 2, I'm able to keep up and keep control of the board despite a chalice on 1 and get there.
Game 3, I keep his side of the board clear and get him pretty low. He then plays the 8/8 guy that prevents his life from changing and gives it shroud. End up using a Ninja of the Deep hours to get all my creatures back in hand and Toxic Deluge for 8. Then I end up getting there.

My thoughts...

Spell Piece I felt was very powerful, having the ability to counter something relevant early, or kill it with removal is huge. I kind of feel I can go down on Thoughtseize and go back up Spellstutter Sprites or other Ninjas (I think the thing with going up other ninjas is risking not drawing into creatures to ninja out the ninjas). Night's Whipser can be a freaking house in grindy match ups. Kolaghan's Command feels broken at times. Terminate is greedy, but the fact it can destroy any creature is huge. Ink-Eyes feels awesome, but realistically if you get it out, typically you were winning by a good bit already.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTIRicgcj58

scaryrawr

08-03-2017, 02:54 AM

Just went 3-2 in a league with the list below:
http://i.imgur.com/NgL47Tx.png
2-1 vs Mono Red Storm - no vid
2-1 vs Infect

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NMYwUYFFww
2-0 vs Grixis Control
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UimACMj0ed0
0-2 vs Big Eldrazi - Probably should have left in Ink-Eyes...
0-2 vs Grixis Control

Last two are in same video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8x8W228RRQk

I made some mistakes, I may also sound annoying... was nervous on camera. The Arcane Lab in the side I feel is very meh, against Mono Red Storm it helped, but it just feels too slow for most match ups. I think there is some value in limiting players to 1 spell a turn, but currently we're not running enough ninjas or man lands to guarantee we function better under it. Daze actually feels very powerful in the side (I'll have to check my paper list sometime to see what I'm running...). I took out Okiba-Gang Shinobi for a 2nd Jace, I think I want to move the second Jace to the side and add in another Deep Hours. Ink-Eyes I feel should come out, but I don't have the heart to remove... I think another Higure might be good for tutoring purposes, or another Throat Slitter, just... love hitting with Ink-Eyes.

Toshiro is actually pretty awesome at times. I mess up a lot though with chaining removal and tapping the correct lands...

CarlosTiberioJr

08-03-2017, 12:09 PM

Went 4-0 yesterday in my local LGS, here in Brazil.

I used your last interaction (from twitch) and changed some numbers:

Maindeck

Creatures (14)

3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Baleful Strix
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Ninja of the Deep Hours

Planeswalkers (2)

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands (19)

1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire

Spells (25)

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
3 Fatal Push
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Night's Whisper
2 Thoughtseize

Sideboard

2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Hydroblast
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Dismember
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Night's Whisper
1 Cabal Therapy

First of all, I think the list was very nice and I didn't feel losing anytime (only when I was at 1 life against Grixis Delver and without lands against Elves).

MU results:
Elves: 2-1
MonoR Prision: 2-1
Grixis Delver: 2-0
Grixis Delver: 2-0

Let's go with all the likes and dislikes:

1 - This list is insane when you have the right amount of lands in play, missing land drop means hard games. The list maybe needs more lands.
2 - The NDH is cute, but maybe too much situational than expected, he needs a lot of setup. If you are winning he is insane, if you are losing he is the worst topdeck ever. I just casted him twice in the whole tournament (He was good one special time, getting back Clique), but shuffled him a lot with BS. Maybe cutting some numbers is the correct move.
3 - I changed the Terminate from your list because is impossible to cast it correctly against some decks, Edict was easier to cast, but maybe Go for the Throat can be the right decision for the MD.
4 - Stutters overperfomed as legacy is a cantrip (1 mana) format. Maybe going to the full set is the right decision.

The rest of the cards where great when I needed, liked a lot.

Some cards that may have come to my mind to test:
Go for the Throat - as replace to Diabolic Edict MD.
Bitterblossom (1 off) - this card can put a lot of pressure and hold some aggros and has synergy with SS, the life loss is hard though.

TL;DR:

The deck is very nice, must be in constant evolution, play it and have fun !

scaryrawr

08-12-2017, 09:58 PM

Went 4-0 yesterday in my local LGS, here in Brazil.

1 - This list is insane when you have the right amount of lands in play, missing land drop means hard games. The list maybe needs more lands.
2 - The NDH is cute, but maybe too much situational than expected, he needs a lot of setup. If you are winning he is insane, if you are losing he is the worst topdeck ever. I just casted him twice in the whole tournament (He was good one special time, getting back Clique), but shuffled him a lot with BS. Maybe cutting some numbers is the correct move.
3 - I changed the Terminate from your list because is impossible to cast it correctly against some decks, Edict was easier to cast, but maybe Go for the Throat can be the right decision for the MD.
4 - Stutters overperfomed as legacy is a cantrip (1 mana) format. Maybe going to the full set is the right decision.

The rest of the cards where great when I needed, liked a lot.

Some cards that may have come to my mind to test:
Go for the Throat - as replace to Diabolic Edict MD.
Bitterblossom (1 off) - this card can put a lot of pressure and hold some aggros and has synergy with SS, the life loss is hard though.

TL;DR:

The deck is very nice, must be in constant evolution, play it and have fun !

Thanks for trying it out! And that's an awesome finish!

I tried Bitterblossom in the list when I was still trying out Standstill, and it does feel very strong with Spellstutter Sprite.

The Ninjas are definitely the most awkward cards in the deck, Spellstutter Sprite can be a house on it's own, I've actually been trying out a new card (I stole it from the man, the myth, the legend, aznfoodgood) Curfew as another way to get our ETB creatures back, and a way to get troublesome creatures off the board, it creates for a lot of fun interactions, get sprite to dodge removal, and replay to counter stuff lol. I've actually taken Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni out of my own list because of how awkward it gets at times, I still run 1 Higure, the Still Wind. I've taken out a few of the flavor flave cards, and am aiming for more streamlined lists. I've been trying out Hymn to Tourach over Thoughtseize and have been finding it interesting. Today I tried "Czech Ninjas" and went 3-2 in a league. I feel the Grixis lists are the strongest right now. I'm also building an Esper list, because I feel at times Fatal Push or Lightning Bolt just don't hit certain creatures I really want to, and Diabolic Edict gives the opponent too much choice, and we're more of a control deck than an aggro deck, so giving our opponent life tends to work out OK.

Hymn To Ninja (Grixis): http://imgur.com/RoCzHA0
Esper Ninjas: http://imgur.com/a/C9opz
Czech Ninjas: http://imgur.com/OIv7MEG

I've been misplaying a ton lol, learning all these new cards (I'm typically the Burn player in a room), but I feel the deck does have a lot of potential, and Ninja can take over a game when you draw it out enough, our early game seems pretty weak, but like, the fun of just hitting people with ninjas I feel is worth it lol.

scaryrawr

07-27-2018, 02:49 AM

New Ninja!?!?

www.mythicspoiler.com/c18/cards/yurikothetigersshadow.jpg

I feel this new ninja will be pretty fun, and it brought me back to ninjas tonight at MBH Bellevue even though it's not out yet!

4-0 UB Ninja Control

2-0 RB Reanimator
2-1 ANT
2-1 Reanimator Depths Living Wish
2-0 ANT

Deck has pretty decent combo matchup, I stuck in 2 TNN in the side as well as 2 clones, and 3 Edicts to help with fair matchups which I managed to dodge. The man is definitely all over the place, I think Bitterblossom gives a lot of strength. I really wanted to go more in on the flavor (got the Umezawa family going on (except for Tetsuo (sorry!)), got Sakashima and his student in the side), but also wanted to have something that can kind of win. A big goal this iteration was to get further away from being Grixis Control and be more in on the creature plan.

I think one of the biggest struggles the deck has is with fair matchups, but I didn't run into any today. TNN I think helps a ton with fair matchups, and using Sakashima and Sakashima's Student to make more true names just sounded fun, also being able to up the amount of removal seemed good as well.

For squeezing in the extra bitterblossom I feel toshiro, venser, or lili should be cut from the main... I also think it would be good to go back up strix and snapcaster...

Main

4 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Baleful Strix
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive
1 Toshiro Umezawa
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Skullsnatcher
1 Mistblade Shinobi
1 Higure, the Still Wind
3 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
4 Fatal Push
1 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
2 Bitterblossom
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
3 Underground Sea
2 Swamp
3 Island
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Faerie Conclave
1 Mutavault
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Flooded Strand

Side

2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Sakashima the Impostor
1 Sakashima's Student
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Throat Slitter
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
3 Diabolic Edict

Erdvermampfa

07-27-2018, 04:57 AM

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

07-27-2018, 08:52 AM

After playing in a few pauper tournaments, I've really fallen for ninjas...

Should be be Stilljutsu, Stillnobi, Still Silence???

Shadow Tiger Hidden Oni

Mr. Safety

07-27-2018, 09:45 AM

All Ninjas suck and are far below the power level of the format. It's the strength of the other cards (Standstill, FoW etc.) which carry these kind of decks and make terrible cards like Ninja of the Deep Hours seemingly playable

This coming from someone pushing for Night's Whisper and mono-black control? Come on now, just because it isn't your jank doesn't mean it's bad.

Deep Hours + Spellstutter/Strix is a legitimate engine to build around. Force/Thoughtseize allow you to gain time to put the engine to work. Honestly I think the card that pushes it into competitiveness is Fatal Push; it really needed an efficient removal.

scaryrawr

07-27-2018, 10:07 AM

Shadow Tiger Hidden Oni

Shadow Tiger Oni Blade?

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

07-27-2018, 10:34 AM

Shadow Tiger Oni Blade?
Shadow Tiger Serving Oni

R3ndr0c

08-03-2018, 02:00 AM

All Ninjas suck and are far below the power level of the format. It's the strength of the other cards (Standstill, FoW etc.) which carry these kind of decks and make terrible cards like Ninja of the Deep Hours seemingly playable

Hmm, then I wonder why NotD has been rated as the second best blue creature ever printed by the community on the Gatherer.

The Ninjas are great cards, and they actually combo with an creature that hav ETB effects and evasion.

Anyways, not going to spend much time trying to convince this ignoramus why he's wrong.

Here's my list.

// FaerieNinjaStill U/B

// 60 Maindeck
// 20 Creature
4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
3 Signal Pest
3 Ornithopter
3 Cloud of Faeries
3 Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow

// 4 Enchantment
4 Standstill

// 16 Instant
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Fatal Push

// 20 Land
3 Island
3 Mutavault
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp

// 15 Sideboard
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 2 Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 Misdirection
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Chain of Vapor
SB: 2 Submerge
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Vapor Snag

My sideboard needs work, and I need a way to deal with Eldrazi Stompy. The new Ninja was a great addition, and I think this deck can be legit now.

Any ideas how to deal with Stompy decks? Any tech for Eldrazi Stompy?

EDIT:
Dismember is a good option for Eldrazi and Anglers. Meekstone is a possibility as well.

BirdsOfParadise

08-03-2018, 11:50 AM

Trinket Mage/Meekstone/Leonin Bola package?

Is Baleful Strix not a replacement for Standstill in the list above? You draw one card right off the bat and a second card if you enable ninjutsu with it, and it has value aside from drawing cards when you get it in play. Especially against big creatures.

Is Faerie Miscreant any good? It’s not every one-drop flier that also has a sometimes useful ETB and boosts your Spellstutter Sprites. And pitches to Force.

Drixx

08-30-2018, 08:27 AM

Hi, i just won 4 round local event with this current list 3-0-1 against 4c mentor2:0,grixis control 1:1,d&t 2:1( me mulligan to 5) and ub shadow 2:1 .

i'm very curious and its very challenging and fun to improve playing this kind of deck few years ago i played mono u ninjas and now with yuriko would be working even better so i'm happy to test it again .

only three changes i'm thinking to switch is higure for mistblade shinobi/rite of undoing ,one dissmember for ponder and one volcanic for mutavault not sure. i'll be glad for any suggest :)

Land (20)
3x Flooded Strand
1x Island
1x Karakas
1x Misty Rainforest
3x Mutavault
3x Polluted Delta
3x Underground Sea
3x Volcanic Island
2x Wasteland

1x Ponder

4x Standstill

2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1x Higure, the Still Wind
2x Hope of Ghirapur
1x Mistblade Shinobi
4x Ninja of the Deep Hours
4x Ornithopter
3x Spellstutter Sprite
3x Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow

4x Brainstorm
3x Daze
2x Dismember
4x Force of Will
2x Lightning Bolt

side
2x Abrade
1x Dread of Night
1x Fire / Ice
2x Flusterstorm
2x Hydroblast
1x Misdirection
2x Pithing Needle
1x Pyroblast
1x Sakashima's Student
2x Surgical Extraction

Mr. Safety

08-30-2018, 09:24 AM

My sideboard needs work, and I need a way to deal with Eldrazi Stompy. The new Ninja was a great addition, and I think this deck can be legit now.

Any ideas how to deal with Stompy decks? Any tech for Eldrazi Stompy?

I've been playing a ton of mono-blue Dreadstill and I play 2x Dismember maindeck, an additional Dismember and 2x Sower of Temptation in the sideboard. I have it mainly for the Sneak/Show matchup but it's incredible against Eldrazi. I played it against Cloudpost-Eldrazi, stole a Primeval Titan, then when they played their Emrakul I bounced it back to hand with Vapor Snag and then stole that, too.

Another card that I think has superb synergy with Ninja of the Deep Hours is Nimble Obstructionist. It flashes in, goes unblocked most of the time, you get a Ninja and have the Stifle effect back in hand (if you need it.) It's not the most mana-efficient way to go about things, but it allows the Stifle effect to be available if you decide you need it. I've been using it as a 1-2-of in my Dreadstill deck. Notably it can stifle an effect under standstill. :wink:

scaryrawr

09-05-2018, 03:12 AM

I've been thinking that spellstutter ends up putting you a turn behind even on the play... I've been trying to cut it lately and I think I like it a bit more...

Main

15 Creatures

4 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
3 Ninja of the Deep Hours
2 Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
1 Higure, the Still Wind

23 Inst/Sorc.

2 Spell Pierce
3 Thoughtseize
3 Fatal Push
2 Diabolic Edict
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will

2 Planeswalkers

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana, the Last Hope

20 Lands

1 Mutavault
2 Wasteland
3 Island
2 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand

Side

1 Throat Slitter
1 Skullsnatcher
1 Okiba-Gang Shinobi
1 Sakashima's Student
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Curfew
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Reanimate

I have to say, Sakashima's Student has to be the hardest ninja to play and actually get good value, but when you do, it makes a great story.

This current iteration is based more on the current Grixis Control lists running around, I think if Spell Pierce was swapped for Hymn to Tourach it would be a lot closer, but with all the control in the current meta, I think Spell Pierce is great (I'm often wrong though). I really was planning on sticking Gurmag Angler in somewhere which is also why I wanted to switch to a more spell heavy build instead of creature heavy, I think Murderous Cut would also be a really good removal spell in this deck since Yuriko can set such a clock with the reveal triggers. I ended up picking Venser over Gurmag since it tends to be an answer everything card.

I plan on trying Hymns this week. With spellstutter it really sucked to tap out on your own turn, even to jam a ninja, now it's a little more aggressive feeling and plays more proactively than reactively. The miracles match up got slightly worse, combo is still good, and fair matchups slightly better.

The most fun matchup so far has to be against Nic Fit. This deck is mana greedy and Nic Fit just sets us up to do exactly what we want. So much card draw, so much hymn snap hymn. It's kind of interesting because it feels like nic fit has issues trying to keep up after giving us lands to play with.

scaryrawr

09-10-2018, 07:59 PM

Ended up getting 2nd at MBH LPS (https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=20048&d=330132&f=LE) with UB Ninjas. I registered as "Yakisoba".

Main
17 Creatures
4 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
3 Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
3 Ninja of the Deep Hours
1 Higure, the Still Wind

21 Inst/Sorc
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
3 Thoughtseize
3 Fatal Push
1 Diabolic Edict

2 Planeswalker
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana, the Last Hope

20 Lands
3 Island
2 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
1 Mutavault
2 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta

Sideboard
1 Mistblade Shinobi
1 Okiba-Gang Shinobi
1 Reanimate
1 Sakashima's Student
1 Skullsnatcher
1 Throat Slitter
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
1 Curfew
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Dread of Night

Went:

Swiss 5-1

1-2 Infect
2-0 Death and Taxes
2-1 Lands
2-0 Omni Sneak
2-1 MUD
2-1 Steel Stompy (Dos Equis)

Top 8
2-0 Turbo Depths
2-1 UWr Miracles
0-2 UW Stoneblade

MDHackbert

09-11-2018, 01:11 PM

Ended up getting 2nd at MBH LPS (https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=20048&d=330132&f=LE) with UB Ninjas. I registered as "Yakisoba".

After watching your Rd 1 Match on 0.25x speed i got most of the list figured out and with a little help, i fleshed out the rest plus i made some tweaks. For example, I opted for no Wastelands. I took it on Sunday to a $20 entry 4 rd swiss event. I went 3-1.

Rd 1. 1-2 L - Turbo Depths
Rd 2. 2-1 W - Burn
Rd 3. 2-1 W - Eldrazi Post
Rd 4. 2-0 W - TES/SI hybrid (technically split, but played for fun)

The list I ran:
Ninjas!
Creatures:17
4 Baleful Strix
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive
3 Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
1 Higure, the Still Wind

Spells:23
4 Brainstorm
3 Fatal Push
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
2 Thoughtseize
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will

Lands:20
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
3 Mutavault
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
4 Underground Sea

Sideboard:15
1 Skullsnatcher
1 Mistblade Shinobi
1 Sakashima's Student
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Okiba-Gang Shinobi
1 Throat Slitter
1 Curfew
1 Dread of Night
2 Flusterstorm
1 Reanimate
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Toxic Deluge

Some things i wanted to change after playing:
Maindeck: -1 Higure, -1 Jace, -1 Lili, -Mutavault; +1 Venser, +1 Thoughtseize, +1 Curfew, +1 Bloodstained Mire (or maybe a basic land, likely a swamp due to new SB cards)
Sideboard: -1 Skullsnatcher, -1 Mistblade Shinobi, -1 Venser, Shaper Savant, -1 Okiba-Gang Shinobi, -1 Throat Slitter; +1 Jace, +1 Lili, +1 Surgical, +2 Hymn

The Higure didn't really seem to do much and, especially if I am cutting the Ninja-bullets, Venser seems better in that spot. The PWs didn't feel right to me in the main, but i like keeping 1 Jace as another plan and setting up Yuriko is great. I felt like i wanted a little more discard, so there's TS to do that. 1 Mutavault on the table felt great, but 2 felt clunky, and I want a little more black mana sources, especially with adding Hymn to the board. I felt that 3 colorless lands was rough with how much we want to use our mana each turn. The main Curfew is just to test it more to see if it feels right, it could easily become a cantrip or a fluster or something later. By taking out the ninjas in the board it makes room for better versions of some of those effects, e.g. Surgical > Skullsnatcher and Hymn > Okiba-Gang.

scaryrawr

01-09-2019, 07:37 PM

It looks like since Yuriko came out on MTGO folks are playing UB Ninjas!

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-blue-black-ninjas

The stuff people are playing are definitely a lot more solid than my fun lists, and I think it'll be worth watching mtggoldfish and mtgtop8 for seeing where the lists go.

Qweerios

05-25-2019, 02:05 PM

Y'all excited about the new Changeling Outcast? An unblockable Faerie Ninja on turn 1 seems pretty good with Sprite and Yuriko, right?

Rationalist

05-27-2019, 02:34 PM

More Ninjas

https://i.redd.it/feh81oa1ns031.png

Glass House

05-27-2019, 03:18 PM

Looks like Ninja of the Deep Hours has been assassinated... :tongue:

Qweerios

06-10-2019, 02:23 PM

I've been testing Ninja + Faeries for the upcoming modern horizons and so far the deck is really strong. I originally wanted to do something with Changeling Outcast given that it is both a Ninja and a Faerie but I found the typing was less relevant than Pteramander's blue color and ability to go overboard. Here's the skeleton I've settled on after a couple successful tournaments:

Creatures (22)
4 Pteramander
4 Faerie Miscreant -> Faerie Seer
4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Baleful Strix
3 Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
3 Ninja of the Deep Hours -> Ingenious Infiltrator

Spells (20)
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize

Lands (18)
3 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Swamp

Sideboard
2 Plague Mare -> Plague Engineer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Spell Pierce
2 Fatal Push
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Assassin's Trophy
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Bitterblossom

The goal here is to enable a safe T2-3 Ninja and try to overwhelm our opponent with card advantage.

The deck is mainly UB with a tiny splash of green for mainboard Decay and a one-of Trophy in the SB. Given the slow nature of fish decks and how most of the pressure is applied through card advantage rather than card quality, I found it crucial to have mainboard answers to Vial, Jitte/Swords, Chalice, Counterbalance, Narset, Liliana tLH, and creatures like Pyromancer, Bob, Lavaman and the new Dreadhorde Arcanist.

I originally had less Ponder and more Thoughtseize but it quickly became clear to me that Pteramander is our lategame bomb and that paying life with this deck can be difficult in fair matchups where most of their creatures hit harder than ours. I tried squeezing in as many Instant and Sorcery as possible and still keep a strong Ninja+Faerie plan and a healthy amount of disruption and removal. I will often pay 3-4 mana to adapt in the midgame or dig aggressively for a Pteramander in the lategame.

The sideboard went through a lot of fluctuation but here are some interesting things I found out:

I chose Spell Pierce over Flusterstorm because I care more about being able to counter more expensive Artifact, Enchantment, and Planeswalker spells rather than being able to counter cheap Instant and Sorcery more effectively because Sprite already counters CMC1-2 spells effectively.

One might think that Dismember seems a better fit than Dismember for this deck given that it tends to hit more stuff like Eldrazi and Gurmag and flips for more damage on Yuriko. Paying life to get rid of an early Mom, Thalia, Delver, Pyro, or even Arcanist can be extremely difficult to recover from with our slow clock and tendency to durdle. Strix tends to handle vanilla fatties effectively and Push is a clean and cheap answer to the threats we care most about.

I originally had Jitte in the SB but given that Elves is practically a bye with Plague Mare and Sprite, Eldrazi struggles with deathtouch (hello Plague Engineer), I found out that the Null Rod plan was more effective against DnT. Shutting down Vials and all their equipment is paramount if we want to take control of the game and Null Rod does all of that for 2 mana while Jitte can be interacted with and costs twice as much. Usually if I can sink 4 mana in a Jitte I can adapt a Pteramander.

There is no doubt in my mind that Modern Horizons bring significant upgrades to this deck. Hopefully more people pick up this awesome fish deck! Let me know if you think of any improvements!

FTW

06-10-2019, 03:01 PM

Captain Hammer

06-10-2019, 04:38 PM

Faerie Seer is amazing! Exactly what Spellstutter Sprite needed.

Y'all excited about the new Changeling Outcast? An unblockable Faerie Ninja on turn 1 seems pretty good with Sprite and Yuriko, right?

Yeah Changeling Outcasts seems excellent with Spirte and Yuriko and even Ingenious Infilitrator. I actually think it should take Pteramander's slots due to it's awesome synergy with three of your cards.

All the new additions from Modern Horizons seem strong...

Faerie Seer
Changeling Outcast
Mist-Syndicate Naga
Ingenious Infiltrator
Throatseeker
Fallen Shinobi

Fallen Shinobi is probably too mana intensive to be playable, but it's usually a 3 for 1. Except for Throatseeker, all the other above cards are devastatingly impactful to the gamestate. And even Throatseeker might be worth sideboarding vs. aggressive strategies that pressure your life total.

Pteramander was good at providing a way to end the game fast by dealing lots of damage mid-late game but Mist-Syndicate Naga deals damage even faster. It also occupies up several of your opponents blockers making sure your other guys get through to draw you a bunch of cards.

Qweerios

06-10-2019, 05:27 PM

Any room for Mutavault? It makes the UB hard to cast, but it's also amazing with Infiltrator (attacks as a Ninja) and Spellstutter (counts as a Faerie).

It would be easier to support without the green splash for Decay obviously. How important is Decay to covering your weaknesses? Could some mix of Fatal Push and more discard/countermagic fill that hole?

You bring up good points and they did go through my mind at some point.

First, Mutavault only produces colorless mana and that's pretty much the same as producing no mana as very little spells can be cast with colorless mana. Therefore, as a Land, Mutavault is terrible. As a threat, Mutavault is slow, weak, lacks evasion, and costs 2 mana every time it attacks. If you have a slot to dedicate to Mutavault I highly suggest Changeling Outcast instead.

Second, Wasteland is key against Grove of the Burnwillows, ramp lands like Cloudpost, Tombs and City, Cavern of Souls, Depths, Karakas, Tabernacle, etc. You can't expect to play long and tight games without interacting with key lands. Cutting Miracles from red mana goes a long way for a deck with 37 blue cards.

Third, the tempo aspect of Wasteland is not negligible in our game plan given that we still play Daze and cheap creatures. This deck operates very smoothly on 2-3 lands and Wastelands can prolong the early-mid game stage that we thrive in. We might not be as tempo-driven as Delver or Maverick, or mana-denying as DnT but we still benefit from the tempo virtues of Wasteland against Control, Combo, and ramp decks. This is why I opted for only 3 copies and not the full playset as Wasteland is not focal to my gameplan but I definitely want to draw them if I have to dig for them.

About the green splash, I personally found it to be a natural fit to the deck. Splashing 2 Trops is a small price to pay for an out to a lot of hosers that can be found in many decks. Keep in mind that this is a fish deck and not a tempo deck like Delver so turning up the aggression and going for the throat is done via Pteramander at a much later stage in the game. This means that most hosers will have to be contended with at some point because trying to win while our opponent is stumbling isn't likely to happen. A quick example of that would be 3 turns of Ptera/Seer beats backed by Sprite, Wasteland, Daze/Force makes our opponent stumble for a few turns vs. the same thing with a Delver and a Goyf or Pyro. We've dished out 3-5 damage while they have potentially already dealt over 15 and threaten to close out the game in 1-2 turns.

I don't think it is wise to replace Decays with more counterspells as this leaves us with no removal or answers to any resolved permanents. Looking at the top decks in the format right now, let's look at what Decay vs. Push brings to the table:

3 Abrupt Decay + 2 Tropical Island vs. 3 Fatal Push + 1 Underground Sea + 1 Island

Aggro:

UR Delver: Push gives a more stable manabase and removes creatures for a lower cost. Uncounterable removal has merit though, especially given that we play so few removal spells mainboard. Advantage to Push.

DnT: same as the above except that Decay removes Vial, Jitte, and SoFaI which can all hose our deck. Push is nice against Thalia. Small advantage to Decay.

Eldrazi: Push hits TKS while Decay hits Chalice. A resolved Chalice is harder to deal with than TKS and Push gets shut down by said Chalice. Advantage to Decay.

Maverick: same as DnT but without Vial and Ports. Small advantage to Decay for hitting Jitte, SoFaI, and KotR unconditionally.

Burn: Push is cheaper and the manabase is better for it. Advantage to Push.

I think it's fair to say that Push and Decay are pretty close when it comes down to Aggro matchups.

Control:

Miracles: Push is dead and Decay hits CB, B2B, Narset, Teferi. Uncounterable against Mentor is great too. Clear advantage to Decay.

Stoneblade: Push is dead and Decay hits Equipments and the usual blue hosers that Miracle plays. Clear advantage to Decay.

Grixis: both Push and Decay kinda suck. At least Decay can be used against LtLH. Small advantage to Decay.

Lands: Push is dead while Decay hits Exploration, Mox and SB Choke. Having an additional Island is pretty good here. Small advantage to Decay.

Decay is clearly superior against Control decks.

Combo:

SnT: both suck but Decay can hit SB Defense Grid.

Storm: both suck but Decay can hit LED, Petal, and Mox.

Reanimator: both suck but Decay can hit Animate Dead

Depths: Decay hits Library, Needle on Wasteland, and SB Choke. Advantage to Decay

12post: Push hits TKS and Decay hits Chalice, Monolith, and Trinisphere. Advantage to Decay.

While not the most effective, Decay is the clear favorite against combo decks.

Captain Hammer

06-10-2019, 06:11 PM

This list 5-1ed the Legacy Challenge.

Very spicy brew (I love everything about it)...

Creature (24)
4 Changeling Outcast
4 Mothdust Changeling
4 Baleful Strix
4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
4 Ingenious Infiltrator

Instant (14)
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Daze
2 Fatal Push
2 Consign // Oblivion

Artifact (4)
2 Aether Vial
2 Chrome Mox

Land (18)
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

Sideboard (15)
2 Fatal Push
2 Dread of Night
2 Duress
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Force of Negation
2 Null Rod
1 Plague Engineer

Between Sprite, Yuriko and Ingenious, the list seems to want to truly max out on the number of 1cc Changeling Ninja Faeries, even if it means running suboptimal ones such as Mothdust Changeling. Though it's pretty easy to give it evasion by tapping a Baleful Strix or Spellstutter Sprite if you need to maximize the number of ninjas you're swinging with for Yuriko/Ingenious. At worst, if you didn't need 1cc play, Changeling Ninja is perfectly fine as Chrome Mox or FoW fodder.

I actually wonder if Snap would make sense here in place of Consign as a way to bounce potential blockers for free so that you can draw a ton of cards by Ninjutsuing a Yuriko or Ingenious.

Qweerios

06-10-2019, 07:34 PM

Faerie Seer is amazing! Exactly what Spellstutter Sprite needed.

Yeah Changeling Outcasts seems excellent with Spirte and Yuriko and even Ingenious Infilitrator. I actually think it should take Pteramander's slots due to it's awesome synergy with three of your cards.

All the new additions from Modern Horizons seem strong...

Faerie Seer
Changeling Outcast
Mist-Syndicate Naga
Ingenious Infiltrator
Throatseeker
Fallen Shinobi

Fallen Shinobi is probably too mana intensive to be playable, but it's usually a 3 for 1. Except for Throatseeker, all the other above cards are devastatingly impactful to the gamestate. And even Throatseeker might be worth sideboarding vs. aggressive strategies that pressure your life total.

Pteramander was good at providing a way to end the game fast by dealing lots of damage mid-late game but Mist-Syndicate Naga deals damage even faster. It also occupies up several of your opponents blockers making sure your other guys get through to draw you a bunch of cards.

The original list I tested had 4 Faerie Seer, 4 Changeling Outcast, and 1 Pteramander. I eventually went down to 3 Outcast 2 Ptera, then 2 Outcast 3 Ptera, then finally took out all the copies of Outcast for 4 Ptera and another Ponder. Outcast enables some sick T3 plays such as T1 Outcast, T2 Seer/Outcast + Thoughtseize/Ponder, T3 ninjustsu Infiltrator or Yuriko and draw 2 cards. The problem with outcast is that without a ninja in play, it is worthless. Outcast doesn't pitch to Force, can't block, can't race, and the typing is only relevant when a Ninja is on the field or when Sprite needs to counter a CMC 2-3 spell. This makes Outcast and all subsequent copies dependant on a Ninja being in play to have any value. Given that 50% of decks don't even play creatures, having a ninja in play already provides a flow of cards. The most common scenario that blows us out is a T3-4 board with a Ninja in play plus Outcast/Ptera in play. The scenario with Outcast means that one removal spell on the ninja leaves us with nothing (we offered our opponent a 2 for 1). The scenario with Ptera gives our opponent the difficult choice of dealing with our Ninja or an imminent 5/5 flyer. Also, most board states where Outcast shine as an unblockable threat involve a Thalia, BSkull, TNN, Delver, Gurmag, Pyromancer, Goyf, an Eldrazi or any other popular legacy creature. Those board states usually don't require additional draws to overcome but rather a stabilizing force. Pteramander is that mid-to-lategame stabilizer.

If anything I would compare Outcast to Seer as Seer's main purpose is to enable Ninjas and buff Sprite (which Outcast does). Seer has the immediate and re-usable effect of Scry2 for a blue while Outcast has that Ninja synergy and is more evasive for a black. Right now I think I prefer a guaranteed scry 2 and being able to pitch my worst card to FoW (you can pitch Seer to FoW as you Ninjustu it on T2) than a potential draw on T3 at the earliest. If the meta shifts toward more fliers like Lingering Souls and Bitterblossom I would consider Outcast over Seer.

Qweerios

06-10-2019, 08:33 PM

This list 5-1ed the Legacy Challenge.

That's a cool looking list! Very focused on the Ninja plan. I like the Force of Negation in the SB... Been looking into those as a potential Spell Pierce/Flusterstorm upgrade. I'm a bit concerned with the amount of Ninjas (4 Yurikos!?) as it seems like it could lead to a lot of clunky hands. Chrome Mox is definitely a nice touch here. The deck also desperately needs 2 colored sources to get going and plays a traditional Delver manabase without Ponder. I think Seer is definitely better than Mothdust here... I think more Push/Daze/Thoughtseize/Decay are way better than Consign // Oblivion in Yuriko decks. I'm not sure about the Null Rod in the SB with Vial and Mox... more reasons to splash green for Decay/Trophy in this list.

I will definitely try this changeling/Ponder-less approach when the set comes out except with a few tweaks:

4 Faerie Seer > Mothdust Changeling
3rd Daze and 3rd Push/Decay > 2 Consign // Oblivion
2 Thoughtseize > 2 Aether Vial
1 colored Land > 4th Wasteland or 4th Yuriko

I lose the Pteramander + Ponder package but gain more Faeries, Ninja synergy, and Mox powered plays.

Qweerios

06-12-2019, 12:35 PM

I went 3-1 at a weekly tournament with the Faerie Miscreant list posted on the previous page bare a few SB changes (-1 Trophy -1 Cage -1 Rod +1 Return to Nature +1 Jitte +1 Blossom). The deck performed well throughout numerous intense games. My loss was to Maverick as I got Choked twice and suffered under SoFaI. Unfortunately I couldn't find a Plague or Jitte in any of those games. The game I won was by adapting Pteramander. In fact, adapting Ptera happened in half my games and was the pivotal moment where I went from durdling with card advantage and circumventing threats to actually closing out the game. Here are a few examples:

-Adapt G1 against Maverick won the race;
-Adapt and flip FoW on Yuriko via Brainstorm against Depths before the second Lage token came online;
-Adapt for 3 mana in my 2 games against Miracles turned up the pressure

Faerie Miscreant was garbage as usual but did its job as an enabler which leads me to believe that Outcast might be better than Seer as a replacement. I don't believe Seer can replace Ponder, especially with Ptera... Outcast is without a doubt the best enabler by having the ultimate typing and evasion. In all my games, all that I expected from that slot was to enable a T2 Ninja or Sprite. I've also had a few stare downs with Marrit Lage and Scryb Ranger that could have been avoided if I had Outcast instead of Faerie. Faerie did pitch to FoW on a few occasions but I believe that was a symptom of the card being horrible rather than a lack of blue cards.

As much as I like Ninjas, I think 6 is a good number (good odds of finding one with a cantrip). I tested a list with Chrome Mox and more Ninjas instead of Ponder and what happened the most was that I would brick on land drops or have to mulligan much more than usual, likely because of the lack of manipulation or perhaps too few lands. Ninjas are clunky and I much prefer being able to set up a good ninjustu rather than having to jam as many as possible.

Another thing I noticed is that the Faerie typing is really just icing on the cake. Most of the time Sprite is used as a flash evasive body or to counter removal and cantrips as you pretty much have to fire it off every chance you get because of the low impact nature of the card. Trying to use Sprite as a hard counter for key spells is inefficient as we want to be doing stuff all the time. Sprite shines against Combo and postboard against Control when paired with Blossoms. I usually side them out against DnT, Maverick and Tomb/City decks.

Also, given the slow/midrange-y nature of the deck, playing against Eldrazi, Cloudpost ramp, and Depths decks is really a game about how many Wastelands and Forces you can find. Forces are good in every matchup but Wastes are sub-par or just dead weight against a big chunk of the meta. Colorless mana only pays for Sprite, Adapt, and Daze/Thalia taxes. I think it's important to have 4 Wastelands in the 75 but splitting them in the main/sb might be a good idea.

Bitterblossom is the nuts against control decks and makes Grixis and Miracles an absolute walk in the park. They also help tremendously against Depths. I went up to 2 copies in my SB and they did not dissapoint.

Our worst matchups are the toolboxy aggro decks like DnT/Maverick. Lucky for us, Plague Engineer goes a long way shoring those matchups. I've been struggling with SFM decks lately because every equipment is a must-answer (Jitte, SoFaI and BSK all shit on our parade). Return to Nature has been pretty flexible so far against Loam decks and Snapcaster+SFM decks. Return is a great complement to Nihil Spellbomb when you don't want to bring in Surgical Extraction (i.e: Miracles with AK and Snap, Aggro loam, Slow Depths). The problem is that the card is green... I can't really afford to play too many green cards against Wasteland decks. I stumbled upon Grip of Phyresis and I think it might be the answer to my prayers.

My plan against DnT and Maverick is to go:
-4 Spellstutter Sprite -3 Daze
+2 Plague Engineer +2 Fatal Push +1 Return to Nature +1 Grip of Phyresis +1 Wasteland

Sprite is too slow and doesn't have any meaningful CMC1 targets. Daze setting us back a land drop against Vial and mana dorks sounds terrible. I try to avoid cards like Grip of Phyresis and Dread of Night as much as possible since they have such narrow application. At least Grip is good against Stoneblade.

Plan for Stoneblade:

UW with B2B
-4 Baleful Strix -3 Wasteland
+2 Bitterblossom +2 Plague Engineer +1 Diabolic Edict +1 Return to Nature +1 Grip of Phyresis

I take out Strix because there is nothing to block in this matchup. Most lists are on B2B so Wasteland comes out. Bitterblossom comes in because they buffer Sprite to counter TNN and they will likely bring in Verdicts.

Esper/Jeskai
-4 Strix -3 Daze
+2 Bitterblossom +2 Plague Engineer +1 Return to Nature +1 Grip of Phyresis +1 Wasteland

Edict is arguably the worst card here as it isn't guaranteed to hit TNN with Snapcaster, SFM, and BSK floating about.

Y'all got any suggestions?

2 Bitterblossom
2 Plague Engineer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Fatal Push
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Return to Nature
1 Grip of Phyresis
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Wasteland

Qweerios

06-20-2019, 07:06 PM

I played at a weekly tournament with a super straight-forward NinjaFaerie deck. I won against Miracles, Jund, and Infect and lost to Manaless Dredge and 4c Loam with Wrenn and Six.

The list:

4 Changeling Outcast
4 Faerie Seer
4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Baleful Strix
3 Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
4 Ingenious Infiltrator

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Thoughtseize

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
//SB
2 Plague Engineer
2 Bitterblossom
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Spell Pierce
2 Fatal Push
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Tyrant's Scorn
1 Return to Nature
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Umezawa's Jitte

I had some fun despite some tilting losses. I lost to Dredge digging 20 cards deep and not finding a single GY hate spell in 2 games, and lost to Chalice and Choke holding 2 Decays but not able to topdeck a land for 7 turns. I was very comfortable against all the matchups I won. The engine is very easy to set up and draws a lot of cards.

The main problem I encountered was that even though I was drawing lots of cards, most of them were garbage. In the few games that I didn't get to ninjutsu much at all. I was mostly jamming garbage evasive 1/1s waiting for a respectable topdeck. In some other games I would flood on Ninjas and struggle to enable them. The Ninja engine is good but not good enough to be the only thing.

Ezuri

06-27-2019, 01:22 PM

I've been playing ninjas for a while now. Started with standstill went to ninja faeries and ended up now with full ninjas.

Here's my current list:

Creatures
4#Changeling Outcast
4#Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive
4#Yuriko, the Tiger’s Shadow
4#Baleful Strix
4#Ingenious Infiltrator
2#Fallen Shinobi
2#Nether Traitor

Instant/sorceries
4#Misdirection
4#Force of Will
1#Murderous Cut
4#Brainstorm
3#Fatal Push

Land
1#Shizo, Death’s Storehouse
3#Wasteland
4#Polluted Delta
2#Island
2#Swamp
2#Verdant Catacombs
1#Watery Grave
1#Marsh Flats
1#Flooded Strand
1#Bloodstained Mire
1#Misty Rainforest
1#Underground Sea

// sideboard
2#Snuff Out
2#Thoughtseize
1#Meekstone
3#Consign // Oblivion
1#Murderous Cut
2#Liliana’s Defeat
2#Marsh Casualties
2#Spellseeker

So I went full in on the Yuriko and Tetsuko. Nvm the legendary, they stick to FoW or Misdirection. Misdirection is amazing against all kinds of spot removal. We can take the card disadvantage both fow and misd give because we have so many draws.

Besides that they reveal for 5 life loss with Yuriko while playing them for alt cost.

Wasteland feels bad. Consider moving them to sb. Nether traitor is hard.. mana intensive, doenst stick to fow or misd but is a recurring best evasion ninja enabler. Or just PW beater.

Fallen shinobi is too good to pass. The deck has a lot of card draw but shinobi makes a finisher. It completely turns the game around and at 4 mana I now believe we can have it. I dropped the ponders but not sure about that.

Curious on your thoughts! I had so many games with ninjas but no enablers and with less counter we care less about removal because we have so many creatures.

Qweerios

06-29-2019, 08:57 AM

My thoughts on your deck?

I think Ninjutsu is good when it bounces something you want back to your hand like Strix and Sprite. Sprite is one of our best piece of protection to keep our draw engine going and another reason to play an unblockable changeling. 10 NInjas is too many IMO given that Ninjutsu by itself is not a win condition and the more Ninjas you play, the more vulnerable you are to removal and creatures. I've tested with 7, 6, and 5 Ninjas and 7 was already too many. I understand that with Misdirection you don't care as much about flooding with useless blue cards but Misdirection is extremely narrow and easy to play around. Most decks with a high amount of removal don't even play creatures of their own to misdirect to. I think Sprite does a great job at countering removal and is much more flexible than Misdirection. If anything, I would rather be playing Force of Negation than Misdirection by a mile.

I am right there with you on Wastelands. I've just played a tournament where I opted for 3 main/1 side Wastelands and I don't think they belong in this deck. Wastes can't really cast anything. Most decks can assembles a few basic lands and operate smoothly. We can't ride tempo as well either because our creatures are not threats but engine pieces that need to be assembled. Wastelands are mostly there as an answer to problematic/unfair lands and unfortunately I don't think we have much space for them. I think we need to deal with PFire, Depths, Posts/Tombs, Depths, Tabernacle, etc. in different ways (I.E. with Trophy).

Fallen Shinobi is indeed pretty powerful and wouldn't mind going down that route if I could tutor it as a one-of. As of now I think Infiltrator is much better as a Ninja and Fallen Shinobi is too mana intensive.

Tetsuko is slow and doesn't do much considering that it affects mostly itself and Yuriko while the other affected creatures are already evasive. Legacy contains about 65% decks that can't block in the first place. Of the 35% of decks that do block, over 10% of them play Karakas.

I would play any evasive 1/1 over Nether Traitor because casting cost matters. Ninja on T2 is one of our best play.

I believe Faeries are an important component of this deck and Bitterblossom plays a crucial role against control decks. Blossom is fundamentally good in long grindy matches and underwhelming in fast games which makes it a side-plan at best considering that most Aggro and Combo decks won't allow you the time for Blossom to shine. This makes it a side plan at best, but damn a damn good one against a third of the field.

On a different note, I am a firm believer that if you are going to play a substantial amount of T2 Ninjas enabled by evasive 1/1s, Pteramander is a prime win condition. He is our super Gurmag Angler and deserves to be built around. Ptera costs 1 mana, is evasive, is blue, and scales beautifully to close out the game fast (even through TNN/Gurmag/Active Mom). This is where I'm at right now:

Creatures (22)
4 Pteramander
4 Changeling Outcast
4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Baleful Strix
3 Yuriko, Tiger's Shadow
3 Ingenious Infiltrator

Spells (21)
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize

Lands (17)
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp

Sideboard
2 Plague Engineer
2 Bitterblossom
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Spell Pierce
2 Fatal Push
2 Assassin's Trophy
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Of all the cards I care the most in my meta, Decay and Trophy tends to handle a fair amount. They include:

-Wrenn and Six (really hot right now and VERY strong against us)
-Narset, Parter of Veils (Miracles and Punishing Dack)
-Liliana, the Last Hope (Every black control deck plays it and it wrecks our deck)
-Leovold, Emissary of Trest (Punishing Dack and a resurgence of 4c Control with W&6)
-Chalice of the Void (Eldrazi and every Stompy deck in the world plays it)
-Umezawa's Jitte (DnT, Stoneblade, Maverick)
-Punishing Grove (most of the W&6 decks play it. Without Wasteland I need Trophy and some good GY hate for it)
-Counterbalance (Still a thing in Miracles...)
-Choke (Depths, Maverick, Loam have all hosed me with it postboard)

I'd like to fit in a pair of Leovold I currently need every other card more. They all synergize better with the game plan of T1 enabler, Draw+disruption, Adapt and finish. If Ptera was a Faerie I would probably drop the Ninja-heavy plan in favor of a heavier Faerie plan with Cliques and Leo...

Ezuri

06-30-2019, 03:05 AM

Qweerios

06-30-2019, 10:31 AM

Sounds very solid!

Thank you for the response! For a more competitive build i'd definitly go with 4 sprites and maybe 4 seer and/or ptera. Dropping tetsuko.

Now in my case I only play within the same group of friends 90% of the time. They play creature and removal heavy decks. Delver, reanimate, goblins, U/W control (miracles), infect, DnT. I have a good time against those decks so far and misdirection is an all star! So many stp, bolts and fatal pushes being played it's a 2 for 1. Even decay can be answered.

Last detail: I love to keep it as ninja as possible for flavor sakes. I have the complete deck (but also the faeries) in Japanese ^^ save for the undergrounds obviously.
Japanese sleeves, playmat and even, rare, D20 from kamigawa hahah. So Tetsuko feels so good!

On a more competitive view and meta I would definitly take your advice and go back to sprites and maybe seer and blossoms side.

So with that information in mind some more advice staying in ninja team but still kinda competitive with my creature heavy meta?

For a heavy Ninja built I would play Ornithopter instead of Nether Traitor. Ornith is also the classic Ninja enabler so you have some added flavor there. About 2 copies seems reasonable.

I would cut some number of Misdirection for a few discard spells as they are a great way to strip removal pre-emptively and allow you to curve out Ornith into Ninja with disruption. I advise a 1/3 or even 2/2 Misdirection/Thoughtseize or even Inquisition of Kozilek split. IoK is more budget friendly and has other benefits like:
-Reanimator can't make you discard a creature with it;
-No life loss against aggressive decks.

I think Set Adrift is better than Murderous Cut for your meta. It is better against Reanimator, can bounce CB, Planeswalkers, even a Jitte or SoFaI.

I would also split your removal suite between Fatal Push and Tyrant's Scorn. Scorn can be used to bounce Reanimated creatures and also your own creatures when targetted by removal or when a Terminus occurs. Scorn also pitches to FoW against combo decks so it gives some utility to your otherwise dead card. I would play a couple copies main. I'd cut Shizo and a Tetsuko for a pair of Scorns.

Anything evasive at 1-2 mana is better than tetsuko, if you like Sprite that's great but you can also find something flavorful that's better I am sure.

Get at least 1-2 Jitte in there for Flavor and it's great for your meta! Wastelands are not so good in your meta either.

You'd have something like this for the meta you described to me and still retain a lot of Ninja flavor:

2 Ornithopter
4 Changeling Outcast
4 Baleful Strix
4 Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive
4 Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
4 Ingenious Infiltrator
2 Fallen Shinobi

3 Inquisition of Kozilek/Thoughtseize
3 Fatal Push
2 Tyrant's Scorn
1 Misdirection
1 Set Adrift
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

18 colored lands

That way you have plenty of removal for the common aggro deck, some removal for Reanimator, and not too many dead cards against Miracles. You've got some solid disruption against any legacy deck. You keep all your flavor and you increase the deck's velocity with additional cheap enablers and more proactive T1 plays. You also preserve the fear of Misdirection by having a singleton because you have played the full playset in the past with your playgroup.

pow22

07-01-2019, 01:47 AM

For a heavy Ninja built I would play Ornithopter instead of Nether Traitor. Ornith is also the classic Ninja enabler so you have some added flavor there. About 2 copies seems reasonable.

I would cut some number of Misdirection for a few discard spells...

^ Agree. Four is a lot of Misdirections. While it's great for protecting honest ninjas against fair creature-based decks the card is going to be dead in a lot of match-ups and on many board states. If there are a lot of creature mirrors in your meta then you might be able to get away with two.

To chuck out another list, I've been playing this recently:

4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Prismatic Vista
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Swamp
2 Darkslick Shores
2 Mutavault

3 Ornithopter
4 Changeling Outcast
2 Faerie Seer
2 Baleful Strix

3 Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
4 Ingenious Infiltrator
2 Ninja of the Deep Hours

2 Plague Engineer

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
2 Fatal Push
2 Curfew

4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
1 Snuff Out

SB:
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
1 Divert
1 Contentious Plan
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod
1 To the Slaughter
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Contagion
1 Commandeer

Ornithopter and Changeling Outcast can lead to some pretty busted starts if you can dodge removal: turn 1 Outcast, Ornithopter; turn 2 Yuriko is kinda the dream. Faerie Seer and Ninja of the Deep Hours are both pretty weak, but I think necessary to provide enough turn one enablers and payoff cards respectively. Mutavaults have also underperformed -- too slow and don't cast any of the good spells -- so I'll probably cut them for either Strixes or Spellstutter Sprites going forwards.

Ezuri

07-14-2019, 06:07 PM

So I changed my list a bit after your advices and playtesting. Though nether traitor has worked wonders a few times I'd love to try ornithopter. Took out 2 misdirections for 2 thoughtseize aswell.

Creatures 25;
4#Changeling Outcast
3#Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive
4#Yuriko, the Tiger’s Shadow
4#Baleful Strix
4#Ingenious Infiltrator
2#Fallen Shinobi
4#Ornithopter

Noncreature spells 16:
3#Fatal Push
2#Misdirection
2#Thoughtseize
4#Force of Will
1#Murderous Cut
4#Brainstorm

Lands 19;
3#Wasteland
4#Polluted Delta
3#Island
2#Swamp
2#Verdant Catacombs
1#Underground Sea
1#Flooded Strand
1#Bloodstained Mire
1#Marsh Flats
1#Watery Grave

Ezuri

08-03-2019, 06:51 PM

Rationalist

08-03-2019, 08:27 PM

Anyone reading?

I'm still keeping my eye on it, yeah.

Qweerios

08-05-2019, 01:23 PM

Anyone reading?

Been playtesting the adjusted list;

Creature (24)
4*Changeling Outcast
4*Ornithopter
2*Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive
4*Baleful Strix
2*Fallen Shinobi
4*Ingenious Infiltrator
4*Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow

Sorcery (2)
2*Thoughtseize

Instant (14)
4*Fatal Push
4*Brainstorm
4*Force of Will
2*Misdirection

Land (20)
1*Bloodstained Mire
1*Flooded Strand
2*Island
1*Marsh Flats
1*Misty Rainforest
4*Polluted Delta
1*Shizo, Death's Storehouse
3*Swamp
1*Underground Sea
2*Verdant Catacombs
2*Wasteland
1*Watery Grave

Been working great! Ornithopter is amazing! Put's so much tempo on our game to recast our enabler. Especialy turn 2.
Besides opponent feels sad if they have to use removal for a 0 cmc creature like ornithopter.

Having some doubts about tetsuko (made me get in with yuriko a lot of times which often was game changing: opp passes with a blocker but enter tetsuko).
But.. wouldnt extra spot removal have gotten me there too?.. so still thinking of cutting her.

Want to add ponder back in somewhere. Also still doubting to go to 19 land and dropping wasteland entirely.

What do you guys think of force of negation for this deck?

P.s. Yuriko is getting a judge gift reprint!! Not really excited though cause i play a japanese playset

I an glad the Thopters are working out for you!

My opinion on Teksuko remains the same.

Ponder is a pretty good magic card and I find it difficult to make a blue deck without it. Tempo decks play the full set and are more tempo driven than we are so to me, Ponder is a no-brainer auto-include. I tried to substitute it for Faerie Seer in a Sprite version and Ponder was sorely missed.

Wasteland is a necessary evil in this deck and it is very difficult to justify less than 3 copies. Our deck is essentially an engine deck (it requires specific card sequences to generate an advantage) and therefore our disruption needs to help us set up our engine. Thoughtseize, Daze, and Force of Will are great examples of such disruption because they fit naturally into our sequencing (either free or cheap) and will prevent specific spells from occurring (targeted removal, large threats, etc.). Wasteland covers the threats that these spells do not cover, namely:

Grove of the Burnwillows + Punishing Fire kills our entire deck
Cavern of Souls and Boseiju stops all our counterspells
Karakas on Yuriko
Tabernacle from Lands
Stage + Depths combos
Sol Lands into anything bigger than our deck

That is not counting the general goodness of Wasteland on any dual land and its synergy with Daze.

Force of Negation is a great SB card for our deck. Countering only Non-creature and having an alternate cost only during our turn makes it too narrow for the main IMO.

As for further discussion concerning the deck, I've personally tabled the deck until the next set which should include Faeries. I really like Ninjas but they need a payoff card. If Pteramander was a Faerie I think the deck would have a leg to stand on but as it is now, Ninja-Faeries are a little underpowered for my taste. The best I could come up with is a Ninja deck that focuses on pro-active early plays and tries to maximize on Pteramander as both an early enabler and a lategame bomb. This meant I could not support a Faerie sub-theme mainboard. I did, however, fit Sprites and Blossoms in the SB as a boarding plan against Control and Combo decks. That way the Faerie plan comes in when Waste/Daze/Strix/Ptera come out. Here's my latest list:

Creatures (18)
4 Pteramander
4 Changeling Outcast
4 Baleful Strix
3 Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
3 Ingenious Infiltrator

Spells (22)
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize

Lands (20)
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp

Sideboard
4 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Bitterblossom
2 Plague Engineer
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Fatal Push
1 Tyrant's Scorn
1 Force of Negation
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb

Pretty straightforward list with 10 pro-active T1 plays, 10 proactive T2 follow-up plays with all the free disruption and 4 Wasteland plan. I've bolded the core cards of the deck that never get sided out. Here are some examples of a few postboard plans featuring Faeries:

Control

Miracle
-4 Daze -4 Wasteland
+4 Sprite +2 Blossom +1 Negation +1 Nihil Spellbomb

Daze and Waste are mostly dead cards here so I keep Thoughtseize and bring in the Faerie package in order to have the most chances of dealing with removal and ride a Ninja to victory. Spellbomb is fine against AK and Snap.

4c Control
-4 Pteramander -2 Thoughtseize -2 Wasteland
+4 Sprite +2 Blossom +1 Negation +1 Nihil Spellbomb

I take out Pteras against Strix and W6 and bring in the Spellbomb for W6, Snap, and KCommand. I can't let W6 resolve here as this card is a total shit in the face. Wasteland loses value here if they don't play Punishing Dack because they have so many Snow basics now.

Lands
-2 Thoughtseize -4 Daze
+2 Surgical +1 Scorn +1 Negation +1 Crypt +1 Nihil

Take out all the dead cards for GY interaction and Punishing/Loam answers. Scorn is there for Marrit Lage.

Combo

Depths
-4 Ptera -3 Ninja
+4 Sprite +2 Blossom +1 Scorn

Clog the board with flyers and ignore Marrit Lage. Decay stays for Needle, Choke, W6 and other random permanents.

SnT
-4 Strix -3 Ninja -2 Decay
+4 Sprite +2 Blossom +2 Surgical +1 Negation

Blossom comes in in order to turn Sprite into a hard counter on the following turn. I keep some number of Decays for the occasional Artisan and Defense Grid.

Storm
-4 Strix -4 Decay -3 Yuriko
+4 Sprite +2 Plague +2 Surgical +1 Negation +1 Crypt +1 Nihil

Here I take out Yuriko because I don't want to reveal my draws.

Reanimator
-4 Decay -6 Ninja
+4 Sprite +2 Surgical +1 Negation +1 Scorn +1 Crypt +1 Nihil

The only matchup where the Ninja engine has no value and the deck becomes packed with relevant disruption.

Elves
-4 Strix -4 Daze
+4 Sprite +2 Plague +1 Push +1 Negation

Plenty of answers and hosers here. This matchup is a breeze

Aggro:

DnT
-4 Daze
+2 Plague Engineer +1 Push +1 Scorn

Plague Engineer and Pteramander are very important for this matchup.

UR Delver/Burn
-2 Thoughtseize -4 Wasteland
+4 Sprite +1 Push +1 Scorn

Other Delver decks
-2 Thoughtseize
+1 Push +1 Scorn

Delver matchups are pretty good in general because we have enough basic lands, 4 Strix and 4 Decay.

Eldrazi Stompy
-2 Thoughtseize -2 Ninja
+2 Plague Engineer +1 Push +1 Scorn

Eldrazi is one of those tough matchups where you want all your Wastelands, Decays, and Strixes to stay afloat.

Brennender_Drache

08-10-2019, 10:41 AM

Qweerios

08-11-2019, 09:42 PM

If you play a build with Spellstutter Sprite, wouldn't be Faerie Seer a good choice instead of changeling outcast? It enables ninjutsu, fits in the Force (/Misdirection), is a Faerie for the Sprite and has an comes into play ability so you want to bounce it.

I've tried with Seer before and the card is deeply underwhelming. Scry 2 and blue is really good but Unblockable and Ninja typing is more relevant. Every enabler in the deck can ve walled by a 2 toughness flyer (Delver, Scryb, Strix, Lage).

A common line of play for this deck is T1 Outcast -> T2 Strix/Sprite (Daze backup)-> T3 Ninjutsu Strix/Sprite for 2x Ninja triggers (TS/Waste backup). You lose a Ninja trigger if Changeling is a Seer there.

Brennender_Drache

08-12-2019, 01:53 AM

I've tried with Seer before and the card is deeply underwhelming. Scry 2 and blue is really good but Unblockable and Ninja typing is more relevant. Every enabler in the deck can ve walled by a 2 toughness flyer (Delver, Scryb, Strix, Lage).

A common line of play for this deck is T1 Outcast -> T2 Strix/Sprite (Daze backup)-> T3 Ninjutsu Strix/Sprite for 2x Ninja triggers (TS/Waste backup). You lose a Ninja trigger if Changeling is a Seer there.

Ah okay, that all makes sense. Thank you for your impressions

PirateKing

08-19-2019, 01:03 PM

Qweerios

08-19-2019, 06:13 PM

Qweerios, why avoid some of the higher cost Delve cards like Gurmag Angler or Murderous Cut?

In testing getting both ninjas hitting and stacking the triggers to fill the hand, then Brainstorm a Force and Angler on top to reveal 12 CMC was common enough to either totally shift the tempo into every combat being a must block situation for them, or even just the threat of that making them fearful of every cantrip, such that they would waste resources until simple beats got there regardless.

I'm not advocating for Emrakul or Draco, just that Yuriko can be more than just Ingenious Infiltrator 5-8

Thanks

I am not avoiding those cards. I think they are very good. 1-2 Gurmag or 1 Murderous Cut are good cards with their own merit that have good synergy with Yuriko. I think the Yuriko synergy is secondary to the utility of the spell you are choosing to play. Gurmag doesn't really have any alternatives in this deck so if you want a fatty, Gurmag is an amazing choice. If removal is what I want, chances are I'd prefer a Push or anything cheaper than Cut because I am counting on that card to handle something like a T2 Arcanist for example. If Murderous Cut is the removal spell you want in that slot so you can remove Gurmag or something big and don't really care if your removal is fast, then you should definitely play it. There are already high costs in the deck that can be revealed and having more just makes Yuriko as a card stronger. That's the beauty of Yuriko, she can be Infiltrator #5-8 and that's good enough, but she can also kill your opponent with lucky flips.

The main reason why I don't personally play Delve cards is because I play Pteramander. A single Delve spell is usually a setback for Adapt. It is entirely possible that Delve cards may be better than Ptera altogether, I just believe Ptera is perfect in this deck as a blue CMC1 flyer that doubles up as a flying Angler. In a version with Ornithopters (yuck!), a couple Anglers will go a long way and I definitely recommend them! I also splash green for Decay so I get to consider cards like Trophy before Cut.

Ornithopter is in a weird spot where it enables really cool plays like T1 Ornith + Outcast into Ninja double trigger. It also has 2 toughness in this W6 era which is relevant. The problem I see with Thopter is that, well, the card completely sucks. He pretty much has to grant you 1-2 triggers to make up for the fact that it is worthless on its own. Ptera will enable only one T2 Ninja trigger but will pitch to FoW upon Ninjutsu activation while all the other copies you will draw throughout the game will be huge threats.

PirateKing

08-19-2019, 07:14 PM

Sound logic all around.

Seems the lists still doing Ornithopter have Retrofitter Foundry in as well, but that still seems like a stretch too far to enable occasional early ninjitsus. It is tempting to ninja out T2 and replay the Thopter, so you can continue to threaten another ninja. Replaying Changeling Outcast on T3 and not being available to attack is a huge punch in the gut tempo-wise. Really need those turns for them to play into Spell Peirce or Fatal Push, otherwise we're draw-go while they sculpt into something scary.

The list I'm toying with already has 3 Fatal Push, so a single Murderous Cut seemed advantageous in both available targets and CMC games with Yuriko. I'm not feeling any shortage of pitch fodder to FoW, and Angler being big and beyond opposing Push & Decay has also helped. I'm only on 2 copies, so it's never come up to be my only ninja enabler that Pteramander is to you.

I'll continue tinkering and see if I can return with any other insights.
Thanks

Qweerios

10-09-2019, 12:55 AM

I went 4-0 at a Legacy weekly with a respectable turnout (20ish players). I had taken a break from magic for about a month and wanted to play something light and fun so I opted for some Retrofitter Ninjas with a little twist. Here's the list and a tiny report:

2 Ornithopter
4 Changeling Outcast
4 Baleful Strix
3 Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
3 Ingenious Infiltrator
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Tombstalker

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize

2 Retrofitter Foundry

4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
2 Swamp
2 Island
//SB
2 Plague Engineer
2 Fatal Push
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Spell Pierce
1 Hydroblast
1 Grip of Phyrexia
1 Force of Negation
1 Ground Seal
1 Crop Rotation
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas

R1 2-0 vs. 4c Snow Control

Tombstalker flew over Plague Engineer G1. TS + Leovold won G2 on its own. I wish I had a 3rd Foundry in this matchup.

R2 2-1 vs. ANT

Thoughtseize was stellar G1 and allowed me to Decay 2 LED. I punted G2 and lost. Veil is a hell of a card against us. I was happy I had 4 TS and no soft counters here. This matchup is very positive overall, especially postboard. Pre-board TS + FoW + Leo is phenomenal here and postboard Pierces + Negation + Surgical + Plagues really shuts the door on them.

R3 2-1 vs. Wizards tribal

I really cool deck that went Merfolk style on G1 with a Vial opener and a bunch of bounce wizards. His deck fell apart G2-3 when I clogged the board with Strix and force Ninjas through.

R4 2-1 vs. Maverick

A really difficult matchup that I was happy to overcome. Decay on equipments was crucial when Strix was holding the fort. Grip in any game would have been a blowout.

Props:
-Tombstalker setting up lethal Yurikos with Brainstorm, and causing headaches to Snow Control
-Thoughtseize taking W6, removal spells, combo pieces, threats and game-breaking equipments
-Strix stalling ridiculous board states
-Outcast breaking stalled boards
-Foundry converting all those garbage cards into annoying threats

Slops:
-Drawing 2 Thopters and no Ninjas/Foundry
-Karakas being annoying against Leo and Yuriko
-Thoughtseize costing 2 life

Thoughts:

This deck is as much of a Ninja deck than it is a Foundry deck! As expected, Thopter and Outcast without a Ninja or a Foundry are garbage, but there can be no degenerate Ninja or Foundry action without those key enablers. Therefore it is crucial to assemble the pieces. Thoughtseize and FoW are the best disruption spells available for this deck because they are the fastest and least conditional. Leaving mana open isn't a good in a deck where you want to actively find, assemble, and enable an engine via cantrips and discard.

The green splash is probably not necessary, especially with the new Brazen Borrower and Drown in the Loch. I can see Drown easily replace Leovold and Brazen Borrower is a nice answer to Marrit Lage and can bounce Chalice and other annoying permanents making the availlable for discard. Being on basic Islands and Swamps only is definitely a huge plus in a W6 meta.

Oko is definitely worth consideration though...

Smarm

11-15-2019, 12:33 PM

Hi everyone, I finally made an account after lurking for a long time. I just play locally at weekly legacy nights, not a pro by any means, but wanted to add to the discussion.

I went 2-0-1 the other night with the intentional draw last round to split prizes. My list is definitely tweaked for the local meta... lots of control, delver, and creature based deck, not much combo.

Creatures (16)
3 ornithopter
3 baleful strix
3 yuriko
3 ingenious infiltrator
2 gurmag angler
1 plague engineer
1 changeling outcast

Spells & Other (25)
4 retrofitter foundry
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 force of will
3 fatal push
2 thoughtseize
2 drown in the loch
1 spell pierce
1 force of negation

Lands (19)
4 polluted Delta
4 prismatic vista
1 bloodstained mire
5 island
4 swamp
1 underground sea

Sideboard
2 back to basics
2 liliana the last hope
1 plague engineer
1 toxic deluge
1 to the slaughter
1 liliana's triumph
1 surgical extraction
1 flusterstorm
1 hydroblast
1 engineered explosives
1 pithing needle
1 grafdiggers cage
1 tyrant's scorn

I don't have a bunch of notes, but here are the matches.

R1. 4c delver (2-0)
Not much to say, got in with ninjas both games to go up on cards and saved counters for planeswalkers. I pretty much always felt in control, even when the opponent had out a flipped delver, angler, and a 6\7 goyf. Spot removal cleaned up the board before closing out the game. We played a couple more games while waiting for the round to end and those felt the same.

R2. UR delver (2-1)
Game 1 I didn't know what opponent was on and kept a greedy one lander. Promptly got blown out by a stifle and never drew another land. Games 2-3 felt similar to round one, never felt too threatened. Game 2 an angler basically ended it, opponent tried to double bolt it but I countered the second bolt. Game 3 Liliana took over, cleaning up the board before ninjas closed the game.

R3. Sylvan plug (ID), but played out for fun 1-2
Game 1 I just flooded super hard. Game 2 opponent played a turn 2 lingering souls but I had turn 3 liliana, which took over the game. Opponent found an abrupt decay the turn before I could ultimate, but a pair of retrofitter foundry ended the game with a bunch of servos. Game 3 opponent again had an early lingering souls, but this time I couldn't find a sweeper or liliana. Some back and forth but eventually the souls ended it.

Overall the deck felt great and is a ton of fun. I was trying out the main deck plague engineer and changeling outcast in place of the fourth ornithopter and baleful strix I like the engineer but will probably drop the outcast. I keep wanting to squeeze in one more thoughtseize, spell pierce or spell snare, and drown in the loch. Drown in the loch was great all night, always happy to see it, but three is probably too many at 2 cmc. I'm leaning towards a spell snare or the last strix.

In the sideboard I ran a to the slaughter to try to fight resolved planeswalkers, which the deck seems to really struggle with. Its also relevant against dark depth, and delerium is actually pretty easy to hit with all the artifacts, so you get the occasional 2 for 1. That slot might just be better as an elderspell or second pithing needle. I also considered noxious grasp since it hits W6, oko, and teferi along with some relevant creatures.

In terms of matchups delver has felt pretty favorable. The removal and counter suite seem to line up well against their threats and they struggle to keep up with the card advantage from ninja hits. Blanking wasteland it also nice. The tough matchups have been planeswalker heavy control and, somewhat surprisingly, mono red decks... Goblins and burn. Against 4c control I've been able to win when I keep walkers in check in the early game, but if they manage to land an early W6 followed up by another walker I just fall too far behind. Swinging at them with ninjas feels so bad too, knowing you're giving up the draw trigger. I haven't played against goblins and burn a lot, so I may have just been playing wrong, but I feel like I just get run over.

Let me know any thoughts on the list, thanks!

Smarm

11-21-2019, 02:09 PM

Got the 2-0-1, ID in last round again! List was the same as last time, except I swapped the changeling outcast for a spell snare.

R1. UW Miracles (2-0)
Game 1 I start out with a thoughtseize and see narset, snapcaster, and 3 swords to plowshares. I pick the snap and decide my plan is to just go all in on servos to win in the face of 3 StP. A few turns later I have 2 servos out and opponent taps out to cantrip then council's judgement the foundry. With opponent tapped out I go for the attack and double ninjitsu a yuriko and ingenious infiltrator. Both connect and I hit FoW and plague engineer off the yuriko triggers... in one turn I draw 4 cards and opponent loses 11 life. Game goes on a little longer but opponent can't catch up after the double ninja hit. Game 2 my oppening hand includes a foundry and a flusterstorm, I hold both for turn 2 and fluster the opponents FoW on the foundry. I don't remember all the details, I think I got terminused, but a few turns later opponent goes to disenchant the foundry, I try to brainstorm to find protection, but opponent forces the brainstorm pitching a JTMS. This leaves us both with empty boards and 1 card in hand. I rebuild with some threats and opponent doesn't see another terminus.

R2. Burn (2-0)
One of the decks I mentioned last time that I thought ninjas struggles with. The matchup probably isn't as bad as I initially thought, although I think this win was due to some good opening hands and an opponent not familiar with my deck. Game 1 I had fatal push for the turn 1 swiftspear and some cantrips. Don't remember all the details but I filled my graveyard pretty quickly to get angler out and rode it to victory. Opponent was holding three price of progress. Game 2 I played a turn 1 ornithopter and retrofitter foundry. Opponent tried to searing blood the thopter, but I turned it into a construct in response. I guess he didn't have too much going on since he ended up double bolting the construct. The 3 for 1 was too much and I closed the game with some servos and an angler.

R3. Goblins (ID)

Once again, the deck felt great and was a lot of fun. The match against miracles played out well without any planeswalkers to have to fight on the board. Neither of us were sure if forcing the brainstorm was the right call in the moment, but looking back we agreed he should have let the brainstorm resolve, then force if I try to counter. Losing the Jace was huge. The only deck change I plan on making is swapping the sideboard to the slaughter for a brazen borrower.

I'm looking forward to seeing what decks emerge post W6. It'll definitely be nice not having to play around a turn 2 value engine that doubles as a win con.

Qweerios

11-22-2019, 01:16 AM

How do you like playing with 4 Foundy?

I really don't like drawing multiples but I always want to have one available when I play a Thopter or Outcast. I play with 3 Outcast, 3 Thopters and 3 Foundy.

I've been on a green splash for some time now for Decay but I think that without W6 in the meta I might go back to straight UB or even experiment with Esper ninjas for some StP and SFM action. An idea that's floating in my mind right now is some sort of Trinket Mage package as a way to cut down on Foundry. Mage can grab Thopter or Foundry and we could play some Engineered Explosives mainboard. Obviously grabing some SB Needle and GY hate isn't bad either!

Smarm

11-22-2019, 11:44 AM

I really like having 4 foundry, although that might be due to my local meta being more control and less combo. When I do face combo (I'm including burn here) I've taken the approach of trying to get a foundry and thopter out as fast as possible to establish a clock. I've done a lot better against combo when I get the turn 1 thopter into a construct vs sitting back and trying to counter and land ninjas. Not sure if this is the right approach, but that's what I've been trying. If there was more combo in my meta I'd probably add back the 4th thopter and another thoughtseize.

I've been liking the 2 color mana base due to how strong it is, blanking wasteland and PoP while being able to run back to basics. Some help vs planeswalkers would be nice though, white gives you vindicate or council's judgement if you really stretch it, red gives you bolt and pyroblasts.

Not sure how I feel about SFM, equipment kinda nonbos with ninjitsu, although it can help after they're on the field, and batterskull is another angle of attack. Not sure how you build the deck with that package. Trinket mage is interesting. Personally I don't want to cut down on foundries, but trinket mage is a versatile tool. This is probably stupid, but what about running mage with a sideboard chalice? I've played games where I basically ignored opposing chalices, played my 0 or 2 cmc creature and activated ninjitsu. Chalice shuts off your foundries and cantrips, but can just win some games on its own. Mage into chalice is probably too slow, but who knows, might just be crazy enough to work!

All that said, those are just my initial thoughts. I always like seeing experimentation, so definitely try out whatever you like and let us know how it goes!

Qweerios

11-24-2019, 01:31 AM

@Smarm,

If you want to make space for more cards in your list I suggest lowering your land count. With 8 cantrips, multiples basic lands and such a low curve I don't think you need more than 18 lands. 18 is just the right amount for 2 lands in your opener. In a straight UB list with SB B2B I would play something like 9-10 Fetches, 2-3 USea, 3 Islands, 2 Swamp. I personally started out with 20 Lands including 3 Wastelands then dropped the Wastelands and went for 18 and now I play 17 with a tiny green splash. Honestly the splash is so easy with such a high fetch count and the fact that this deck operates quite smoothly with only 3-4 basic lands in the deck. If I didn't play a green splash I would likely just play a red splash for a pair of KCommands mainboard and some SB Pyroblasts.

About the Combo matchups, I trim down on Foundry. I like to use thopters as ninja enablers and I don't care about the speed of my clock but only the relevance of my cards and how fast and consistently I can get relevant disruption going. Anything that swings for 2 is enough in these matchups if you have steady cards coming in. With that said, Foundry is a vanilla clock that depends on another card to be good and to me that's not good enough against Combo decks. Obviously, all the foundries stay in against Depths.

On a different note, if Oko makes a stand in control decks, I don't think straight UB will cut it. We suck at swinging into planeswalkers and Oko interacts with all our pieces. I think a splash for Pyroblast or Decay will be mandatory if you want to remain competitive in such a meta. I think Decay is still necessary for now...

I went 17-0 in games with my UBg list during the W6 meta going through all of the top decks (4 RUG Delvers as the majority). I got 2 x 4-0 runs in 25 player weeklies, won a monthly going 6-0 including top4 and took down a small event 3-0. I can say with absolute certainty that this deck is a Combo slayer (played them all), has a great aggro matchup, and has the tools to take over control decks. The most difficult decks to beat are the ones that go big like Post decks because we have no Wastelands. Outcast goes a long way in these un-interactive, bomb-esque matchups.

I am still unsure how I want to approach the meta without W6 but some things will have to change given that Grixis Delver with Pyro and Gurmag is a different animal than RUG. I also expect a return of Strix control decks and by the same token a rise in UW control. All the DnT, Infect and Elves deck will come back too so fighting aggro decks will be less linear than it was when Delver and friends reigned supreme.

Here's my list for sharing:

Creatures (18)
3 Ornithopter
3 Changeling Outcast
4 Baleful Strix
3 Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
3 Ingenious Infiltrator
2 Tombstalker

Spells (22)
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Drown in the Loch
2 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize

Other (3)
3 Retrofitter Foundry

Lands (17)
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
2 Island
2 Swamp

Sideboard
2 Plague Engineer
2 Fatal Push
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Force of Negation
1 Hydroblast
1 Liliana's Triumph
1 Grip of Phyresis
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Crop Rotation
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas

All the cards I want to draw but not in multiples are restricted to 3 copies. This is why I didn't like playing with the full playset of Thopters, Outcast, Yuriko and Foundry even though they are engine-enablers. The fact that these cards have overlapping roles and combine to power up the engine is key when building an engine deck. This means you can have 6 enablers and 9 payoff but the nature of the cards are so different that you can combine a Thopter and Outcast with any Ninja for a much more powerful opener than say 2 Thopters or Outcasts and a Ninja. Foundry gains so much more versatility when you can churn out a 0-cost 4/4 or decide if you want to transform your unblockable changeling into a thopter or a construct if you can't enable your unblockable CA engine. 4 Thoughtseize was too much life loss and made some sideboard coverage more difficult and 2 were too few to reliably get TS openers. 4 Decays were clunky and were more difficult to support with only 2 green lands in the deck.

The 2-ofs are the cards that are somewhat fringe but relevant to the deck which is why I never want to draw multiples. Avoiding to draw multiples therefore outweighs drawing one per match. Drown requires timing, is flexible but too clunky to want multiples. Tombstalker is a monster in a Strix-less meta with lots of Goyfs paired with Hexdrinker/TNN roaming about. I usually prefer the easier cost of Gurmag to Flying but in this deck the Stalker is often our grand finisher rather than an on-curve vanilla fatty simply because he is so much more difficult to stall (Plague Engineer, TNN, and Pyromancer). I definitely recommend using Stalker over Gurmag, especially in UB lists. The last crucial 2-of is Daze because our deck has a tempo element to it and having Daze potential when setting up an early ninjutsu is backbreaking. The psychological after-effect is also not to be neglected. Playing more than 2 copies is just asking for dead cards.

Out of the SB I think Hydroblast takes a hit from the absence of W6. Pithing Needle was the card that I swapped in and out of the Edict slot so I might add it in instead of Hydro. Needle naming Oko seems appropriate now that I don't need to blast W6. Perhaps a Cage instead of Crypt might be a good idea if Elves make a comeback. The Crop package is quite good at making sure we have many angles of disruption against Depths, Hogaak, Reanimator and even Lands decks.

Smarm

11-25-2019, 12:50 PM

@Qweerios

For a while i had Karakas as my 19th land but ran into a few games where it was in my opening hand and i needed a colored source, so I ended up cutting it for the 5th island. I'm on more of a midrange version of the deck (as opposed to tempo with outcasts and daze), so i want to hit land drops. All that said, I have considered trimming a land, so maybe i'll try out 18 for a while and see how it feels. Unfortunately i don't own the fetches/duals to splash a third color. Fully agree with you on the Oko point, if he becomes big in the new meta i'll have to figure out how i want to counter that. I hate swinging at walkers with ninjas, and Oko just wrecks everything in this deck. If i had the cards i'd probably splash red for pyroblasts, although abrupt decay and veil of summer make green pretty appealing. Veil is such a blowout and is a nice counter to hymn, if it comes back post W6. Any reason you don't run veils in your SB?

Against non-depth combo i definitely understand taking out the foundries, without thopter it's just too slow. I always felt like ninjitsu for extra cards was just too slow and i only run 3 turn 1 enablers, but i also dont have a lot of reps against combo.

With W6 banned i'm expecting more strix again, so i'm going to keep running the anglers for now. If TNN and pyromancer make a comeback i'll try out tombstalker, although plague engineer is a nice counter to those cards. I'll have to see how the local meta shapes up before i make a bunch of changes. For the SB, no W6 does decrease the need for hydroblast, but there's still UR delver, goblins, and burn. I like Cage since there's always someone on elves.

Qweerios

11-26-2019, 11:54 AM

I don't think Outcast is a tempo card because it is inherently tempo-negative when paired with ninjas. High Thopter counts are more indicative of a tempo strategy because they allow you to deploy ninjas for their ninjutsu cost only. Outcast is more in the midrange category because it requires a ninja in play to shine as an additional card draw enabler that is also unblockable. When outcast is paired with Foundry it offers flexibility for a higher cost than say a Thopter.

Similarly, Daze in this deck can play the tempo part but isn't meant to push the deck in a tempo direction. Any proactive blue deck with a curve dominated by 1-2 drops will benefit from a few copies of Daze because they will act as free Force Spikes the moment you hit 2 lands in play. By the same token, Infect playing a few Stifles and a Wasteland for Crop Rotation does not qualify them as having a mana denial strategy even though they might have a Stifle + Wasteland opener every now and then. Another example would be a UR deck packing Goblin Guide and Delver with a high burn count. That deck would surely benefit from 2-3 copies of Daze even though they play Guides and no Wasteland.

I hadn't thought of Veil as a potential SB card and I will definitely try it out in the Hydroblast slot. I was looking for something against Control decks and this might be it.

I would only play Cage over Crypt if I expected many Elves and Hogaak decks. Crypt tends to be better against Reanimator decks by virtue of its cost (combines with other plays and plays through Annex), Loam decks, and tends to blank Decay and Force of Vigor.

Last sunday I went to a small monthly tournament of approximately 15 players. I kept my streak alive (now 22-0) going undefeated in the swiss, ID into top4, and winning top4. I got to play against Maverick, Burn twice and Show and Tell twice as well. Maverick was interesting and I felt really comfortable having Plague Engineers, and Grip + Decay to deal with equipments. Burn was surprisingly good with Foundry or Stalker backed up with all the counterspells. I was happy to have Decay against SnT postboard to deal with Defense Grid. I still can't handle Boseiju but the deck can deal with resolved permanents thanks to Crop, Karakas, Strix and Needle.

Smarm

11-26-2019, 03:33 PM

Qweerios

11-26-2019, 04:12 PM

That's awesome, congrats on the finish! Wish i had the cards to try out your list, i love the crop rotation/karakas/bog package. One deck i forgot to mention that seems like its coming back in some form is miracles, so having decay to cleanly answer teferi and counterbalance would be nice.

I didn't mean outcast itself is a tempo card, but from the lists i've seen online they only*show up in what i think is a tempo version of the deck. 4 thopters, 3-4 outcasts, 4 infiltrators, 3-4 yurikos, and 3 daze. Maybe i'm using the wrong term for the deck, but they're more all in on the turn 2 ninja as opposed to using the first turn or two for ponder/discard/spell pierce before activating ninjitsu.

On the SB, how's grip of phyresis been? I know you said it was good against maverick, but its super narrow, especially*with access to decay to answer equipment or the germ token. Do you run into a lot of SFM in your area?

I see what you mean by tempo when you talk about decks that heavily support the ninja theme. To be fair, those decks are simply showing more commitment to ninjas than perhaps you are used to. Playing Ponder T1 or leaving mana open for Pierce is mostly a symptom of a lack of better plays while T1 Outcast is indicative of a proactive ninja play. Daze then naturally becomes a good choice of counterspell because of its cost rather than its effect. Without W6 everywhere, Outcast is a serious asset for our deck.

My meta has dedicated DnT/Maverick players and the occasional Stoneblade. All these fair decks tend to have similar strategies that involve individually strong permanents that gain an insurmountable edge via equipments. Grip is a blowout and is one of the few clean answers to batterskull that I can play. Cards like Return to Nature stretch me further into green for a less impactful play against key decks that are tight matchups to begin with. Prior to Modern Horizons, ninjas had no chance outside of Jitte to beat these fair equipment decks. This is why I don't sleeve ninjas without a pair of Engineers and Grip acts as my Engineer#3.

Now that you make me think about it, I might drop Edict and Grip and go straight for 3 Push and 3 Engineers if DnT becomes an issue.

Qweerios

11-27-2019, 05:43 PM

Broke my winning streak yesterday at a 15 players 4 round tournament. I went 3-1 losing R2 to BUG Control 2-1. I got to beat a very cool Ug High Tide deck, Burn, and GWb Maverick.

I played my same list but with 3 Plague and 3 Push instead of Grip and Edict. I wish I had included a pair of Veils like you suggested Smarm for BUG because my opponent got so much value out of Veiling my TS and Hymning me back. This matchup needs a nudge because they likely play 2-3 Plague Engineer postboard on top of Oko and Hymn. Thopter is complete garbage against Strix and even maverick can wall it with a Birds of Paradise...

I think it might be time to play 2-3 Okos of our own. Probably over Gurmag and Daze.

Smarm

11-28-2019, 10:42 PM

Yea, think I agree with you on oko. Doesn't really further the ninja game plan, but it's just such a pushed card there's almost no reason not to play it.

Played last night running the same list I posted earlier with a spell snare in place of the changleing outcast. Ended 2-1-1, ID in the final round.

R1. Turbo depths (2-0)
Game 1 I'm able to hold of marit lage long enough to win with construct beats. Game 2 I had all the SB answers. Tyrant's scorn bounces the first lage. I get a clock going with another construct. Opponent plays another DD then tries to crop rotate. I'm holding a pair of FoW, brazen borrower, and another blue card. I go for the blow out and let it resolve. Opponent gets a stage and makes lage eot. I bounce the lage and end the game a turn or two later.

R2. RUG lands (2-0)
Game 1 opponent doesn't do much, I think he got stuck with some useless wastelands. I get ninjas out and build up too much of a board before opponent can do anything meaningful. Game 2 I force a turn 1 exploration, then spell pierce a turn 2 Sylvan library. I play a foundry and a thopter, opponent then plays an oko. Once again I think I get this win due to my opponent not being familiar with the deck more than anything I'm doing. Opponent makes a food instead of elking the foundry, then plays a Tabernacle, eot I make a construct. I pay the tax and kill oko over a few turns. Opponent plays a drop of honey, but I have endless servos to feed to the drop and close the game with the construct.

R3. 5C control (1-2)
Game 1 I have a nuts hand. Thoughtseize, thopter, yuriko, infiltrator, FoW, and a pair of lands. The hand pretty much plays itself... Thopter into yuriko, then into infiltrator drawing 4 cards. Game ended pretty quickly after that. Game 2 opponent plays a turn 3 strix, I play a liliana and tick up on the strix. I play protect the queen for a few turns until Lili is ready to ultimate, but opponent finds a decay after a bunch of cantrips. With Lili off the board things go downhill, opponent ends up with 3 plague engineers, shutting off servos, strix, and borrower, and kills me with them. Game 3 opponent has the answer to everything. He's on a 5c abomination and has discard, StP, pyroblasts, and veil of summer. There's some back and forth but opponent gets me twice with veil and I can't catch up.

R4. Goblins (ID)
Once again sleep wins. We split prizes and head home.

Before the night started I wanted to try out 2 changeling outcast, but got there a little late and didn't have time to make the change. Kinda glad I didn't, every deck with black was running a bunch of plague engineers. For the decklist I'm going back to 4 ornithopter and 3 thoughtseize, dropping a land and the spell snare.

Against control I'm not sure how I should sideboard. I've been taking out the thopters, but maybe I should be going for the explosive early turns?

Qweerios

11-29-2019, 05:37 PM

I am still not 100% certain how I want to approach the Strix/Engineer Control matchup but here's what I've got noted down for control decks:

Strix Control
-3 Outcast -1 Swamp
+3 Plague +1 Veil

Miracles
-1 Stalker -1 Bayou
+2 FoN

Stoneblade
-4 FoW
+3 Plague +1 Return

Lands
-3 Decay -2 Drown -3 TS
+2 Surgical +2 FoN +1 Return +1 Crop +1 Karakas +1 Bog

I updated my list to include 2 Oko and an 18th land. I trimmed on basic lands now that W6 is gone. I never really cared for the 3rd and 4th basic land against Delver decks. I ended up cutting the 2 Daze and a Tombstalker.

Smarm

12-04-2019, 08:02 PM

Qweerios, is that you listed in the GP Bologna decklist dump? If so, how did it go?

Qweerios

12-05-2019, 01:15 PM

Qweerios, is that you listed in the GP Bologna decklist dump? If so, how did it go?

It's another user that wanted to try my list for the GP. We exchanged on some SB strategies and Thomas Dresder piloted the deck in Bologna. He went 7-2 on day1 and cashed out on day2. He cruised through many Delver decks, crushed several combo decks and struggled against the few control decks he encountered. He ended up 11-4-1 or something (he got shafted by a slowplayer aiming for a warning on d2). He admitted making a missplay costing him a game against Depths. The rogue factor of the deck had a huge impact according to him.

We mostly discuss the splash and some of the flex slots. His takeaway from the tournament are:

-The green splash is basically free and the Crop package is great.
-Tombstalkers (and Gurmag) are dead post-W6 meta. Brazen Borrower is superior.
-You likely want a few Brazen Borrower if you don't pack Decay
-A pair of Oko (or maybe Leovold) should replace Stalker to shore the Control matchups.

Going forward there is less incentive to play several basic lands. W6 is gone and small splashes bring a lot to the table in terms of flexibility and sideboard answers.

You could say the deck is in a great spot. I believe this deck to be T1 material.

Smarm

12-05-2019, 03:18 PM

Qweerios

12-05-2019, 05:30 PM

That sucks on the slow player, but congrats to Thomas on the strong finish! The list is pretty unique, figured you had to be involved somehow :)

What's the reasoning for stalker and angler being dead, the rise of strix and StP? I guess the increasing number of brazen borrower hurts too.

I agree with the deck being in a great spot, although i do want to see where these 4-5 color control abominations end up. At least for UB, its tough fighting through all the best 1 mana spells in every color.

Tombstalker was basically a 5/5 Nemesis during W6. White removal and Jace were pushed out, Delver was at its peak and non-white control decks cut Strix for Engineer and W6. Now Strix is back with his buddy Oko along with white control decks.

For straight UB I suggest Liliana the Last Hope against 4+c Strix decks.

Ezuri

01-02-2020, 06:05 PM

Hey guys.

Hope someone is still reading this.
I want to try out retroffiter foundry and brew up this list.
Let me know your thoughts please

Creature (22)
4*Changeling Outcast
4*Ornithopter
4*Baleful Strix
2*Fallen Shinobi
4*Ingenious Infiltrator
4*Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow

Sorcery (2)
2*Thoughtseize

Instant (14)
4*Fatal Push
4*Brainstorm
2*Force of Negation
4*Force of Will

Artifact (4)
4 Retrofitter foundry

Land (18)
1*Bloodstained Mire
1*Flooded Strand
1*Marsh Flats
1*Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
4*Polluted Delta
1*Shizo, Death's Storehouse
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Swamp

Might tune down the strix or other creatures to add a murderous cut maindeck or ponder again.

Smarm

01-06-2020, 04:28 PM

Hi, glad to see people still posting here. Here are my thoughts on the list.

Fallen shinobi should be cut as it's too expensive, i'd only run it as a fun-of if i was playing in a casual setting. Similar thoughts for shizo, fun to try but doesn't do enough to warrant a spot. Black and artifact creatures are fairly common, especially ones that block well such as strix and plague engineer. Your only legend is Yuriko and changeling outcasts are already unblockable.

I'd swap the FoN for daze since the first couple turns are super impactful with 4 ornithopter/4 changeling outcast. Daze gives you free counters you can use on your turn, which is usually when opponent is trying to use removal. FoN is probably better in the SB if you think you'll need them.*

In this build i'm not sure i like thoughtseize in the main. I'd probably swap the 2 shinobi and 2 thoughtzseize for 4 ponder since you really want to get the ninja engine online. I'd probably also want a 3rd, or even 4th, daze in place of shizo or a fatal push (or both).

Overall i think the list just needs to be a bit more focused. You're on what i would consider the all in build with 8 turn 1 enablers and 12 payoffs. Shinobi and thoughtseize take you off that track while ponder helps you set up the engine and daze protects it in the early game. Just my 2 cents, obviously anyone's free to disagree. Hope you get a chance to test it out, and let us know how it goes!

Qweerios

01-12-2020, 06:43 PM

I played Ninjas for the first time since the banning of W6 at a local monthly tournament. I brewed a Grixis list the night before and wanted to give it a whirl. The turnout was fine but not great with approximately a dozen players so we only got to play 4 rounds and cut to top 4. Lucky for me I went 6-0 and claimed first place. The meta was combo heavy with Sneak n Show, Reanimator and Storm, and Control heavy with multiple SnowKo decks showing up including Miracles, Rip-Helm, and even a spicy Splinter Twin deck. There were barely any Aggro decks in sight with only one RUG Delver, Maverick, and Moon Stompy.

Here's a quick summary:

R1 Bye

R2 2-1 vs. BR Reanimator
I lost G1 but I won G2-3 with no-land openers that had 3-4 pieces of free interaction.

R3 2-0 Sneak n Show
I don't think they have a chance if we get to deploy a Ninja. This matchup is extremely favorable.

R4 2-0 Maverick (with SB Pyroblast!)
I won G1 with a double Thopter + Foundry opener and went on a rampage with 2x Constructs while they Wasted my lands. Postboard games are very favorable if we can secure our land drops. Abrade and Engineer did their job.

Top4

2-0 Sneak n Show
2-0 Bant Miracles
The Miracles games were very long and grindy but I was in control almost the entire game with a handful of counterspells, patiently deploying Strixes and Ninjas and getting wiped 3-4 times per game. Foundry, Blossom, backed by all the counterspells made this matchup quite enjoyable.

Grixis Ninjas!

3 Ornithopter
3 Changeling Outcast
4 Baleful Strix
3 Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
3 Ingenious Infiltrator

2 Brazen Borrower // Petty Theft

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Drown in the Loch
2 Daze
2 Force of Negation
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

3 Retrofitter Foundry

4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
2 Island
1 Swamp

//SB
2 Plague Engineer
2 Abrade
2 Pyroblast
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Dread of Night
1 Bitterblossom

Compared to my previous lists I decided to swap Thoughtseize and Force of Negation from the main and SB. The reasoning was that I expected a lot of Combo and Planeswalker Control decks and figured I would just be able to harcast FoN (which I did a lot). Bolts were quite useful but I did flood on them way too often given how little Aggro decks there were. Even if I did play against more aggro decks I don't think Bolt is the best answer here. The only changes I would bring to this list for now would be to cut the 4th Bolt for a 3rd Drown and to try to squeeze in a 3rd Pyroblast in the SB.

Borg

02-17-2020, 09:36 AM

In trying to improve my Ninja deck I'm looking at Liliana, Heretical Healer // Liliana, Defiant Necromancer
She has great synergy with the Ornithopter / Foundry combo.
Saccing the Ornithopter transforms her and with her -X ability she can put the Ornithopter back in play for the cost of zero Loyalty.

Borg

02-19-2020, 04:27 PM

Qweerios

02-27-2020, 05:41 PM

Had a game today with opening hand including Foundry, Thopter and Liliana.
T3 went exactly like mentioned above already : play Liliana, sac Thopter for 4/4 Construct, activate Liliana and put Thopter back in play.
Liliana took a Bolt the next turn. ;)

She adds a very powerful extra dimension to this deck.

I don't think Liliana is were we want to be with this deck. Taping out 3 mana for a situational card that requires somewhat of a gimmick to activate isn't stellar to begin with. Even when things turn out for the best, flipped Lili isn't particularly impressive. In short the card you give up for Lili is likely better than Lili.

I haven't been very active lately (vacation/training/life) with MtG since the banning of W6 but I did get to play a weekly recently with a great turnout. There were approximately 30 players and some new faces so that's always good news for my local Legacy scene. I played my Grixis list with some very minor tweaks in the main (-1 Bolt for +1 Drown, and -1 Island for +1 Fetch) and side (2 Plague/2 Abrade/3 Pyro/3 Thoughtseize/2 Surgical/2 Crypt/1 Cage). I managed to score another 4-0 ripping through a bunch of Oko decks.

2-0 Bant Miracles
I think this is the standard Bant + Pyroblast list. Veil of Summer is extremely strong and is really the card that makes this matchup difficult. I played the control role with my numerous counterspells while summoning a board position for value with Strix and Ninjas. Playing Draw-go with Foundry and a grip of counterspells is very strong against any Control deck.

SB: -3 Ornit, -3 Bolt for +3 Pyro +3 Thoughtseize

2-0 UW SnT+Mentor combo homebrew
Boseiju is the only card I am worried about from SnT decks which is why I pack 3 TS in the SB. He did play Teferi which gave me a lot of trouble.

SB: -2 Ornit -3 Bolt -3 Foundry for +3 Pyro +3 Thoughtseize +2 Abrade (For Mentor and potential SB Defense Grid)

2-0 SnOko (no red)
This was the most difficult Control deck to play against because he had Leovold, Plague Engineer and Abrupt Decay along with Veil, Oko, and even Teferi. All of these cards either negate our plan or run away with the game if left unchecked.

-3 Ornit -3 Changeling for +3 Pyro +3 Thoughtseize

I took out Ornit because it gets walled by Coatl and kept Bolt > Changeling because it automatically dies to Engineer and Bolt can answer Leo, Engineer and potentially Teferi/Oko

2-0 UG Lands (Oko + EE and no PFire)
Lands can always win by wasting all of our lands if we struggle to develop, win with a swift Lage if we can't find Petty Theft, or take the lategame with PFire or recurring Explosives if we can't apply pressure. This matchup appears unfavorable on paper but we have all the tools to shut down their engine if we can exile Loam or PFire via Extraction/Crypt/Negation and clog the board with Flyers or re-buy Petty Theft via Ninjutsu.

-1 Ornit -3 Bolt for +2 Surgical +2 Crypt

In the end Drown in the Loch was phenomenal as always. Foundry continues to be the main reason this deck is arguably top tier. 3 Bolts were much less clunky than the last time I played with 4 copies in a sea of Oko and Combo decks.

Going forward the only changes I would consider for the mainboard are -2 Daze for a combination of Island#2, Negation#3 or Foundry#4. The most imminent changes I will are are to the SB by removing the 2 Crypts for a 3rd Surgical and a 2nd Cage. My reasoning is that Surgical is superior to Crypt against Loam and PFire engines which are serious threats to this deck. Having a 2nd Cage is relevant considering it is one of the most impactful pieces of GY hate against Hogaak decks (one of our worst matchups IMHO).

Borg

02-29-2020, 04:38 AM

@Qweerios : have you considered maybe playing 1x Snapcaster ? He doesn't have evasion but in case he can attack unblocked he's another nice creature to put back into your hand.

Qweerios

02-29-2020, 12:37 PM

@Qweerios : have you considered maybe playing 1x Snapcaster ? He doesn't have evasion but in case he can attack unblocked he's another nice creature to put back into your hand.

Snapcaster definitely has potential here. Similar to Brazen you get an effect and the potential to buy it back. In Snapcaster's case the effect is less crucial but more flexible and the body is less likely to be bought back.

As a replacement to Daze, Snap plays a very different role at a much higher cost. I think Ninjas are already potent at generating value via Strix, Foundry and the 6-7 Ninjas.

I believe Snapcaster is eclipsed by Drown in the Loch in terms of flexibility. For 2 mana you can choose to hard counter or destroy a creature. This kind of flexibility takes a lot more work and mana to be achieved by a Snapcaster. Especially in Legacy where T2 Arcanist and T3 Oko require immediate answers that a later Snapcaster cannot mitigate. Perhaps the most compelling use of Snap is as Brainstorm #5-6 when drawing blanks or when recasting Pyroblast on Oko/Teferi.

Disruption spells in general would better support the Ninja shell by allowing space for any sort of setup. I would rather add a Bolt or another Drown than a Snapcaster to give me additional space or control in the metagame if indeed they are superior to Daze.

Daze tends to fit in low numbers for Ninjas. It is on-curve with a defining T2 Ninja play (or any defining Ninja play against a tapped out opponent). Daze further complements the free counterspell suite against fast Combo decks and allows breathing room for cantripping, Ninj-enabling or Thoughtseizing. Another notable and relevant use of Daze is against Control decks where it is extremely potent in the first 4 turns of the game when fighting a counter war for an Oko backed by Veil/Pierce/Pyro.

Borg

03-02-2020, 11:05 AM

@Qweerios : thanks for the thoughtful reply.

Based on your build I've added Bolts as well. I get to play some games next sunday and find out how it goes.

I noticed you play "only" 3 Retrofitter/Ornithopter/Outcast/Infiltrator + 4 Ponder.
Are those enough to give you consistent Ninja plays on T2 ?
Personally ( herecy statement coming ) I prefer 4 copies of each of those ( for consistency ) rather than 4 Ponder to look for them ( and other cards ofc )

I also have only 3 Strix but 1 Spell Pierce.
Going T1 With Ornithopter + open land for Spell Pierce seems preferable imo over Daze.

Anyway, just for reference, this is what I currently have :

//Lands
1 Badlands
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

//Artifacts
4 Retrofitter Foundry

//Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Spell Pierce
2 Daze
2 Drown in the Loch
2 Force of Negation
4 Force of Will

//Creatures
4 Ornithopter
4 Changeling Outcast
3 Baleful Strix
2 Brazen Borrower // Petty Theft
3 Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
4 Ingenious Infiltrator

//Sideboard
1 Dread of Night
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Abrade
2 Plague Engineer

Qweerios

03-02-2020, 02:14 PM

@Borg,

The best argument in favor of Ponder is probably the fact that it drastically reduces your mulligan rate. One-landers with a cantrip are automatic keeps while ninjutsu hands with 1 lands are automatic mulligans. Ponder is also a very good card at setting up draw sequences for Yuriko.

In theory, the faster you deploy a ninja and the longer the game lasts, the more advantage you produce over time. In practice, if you aren't playing the most degenerate combination of cards before your opponent, Legacy is a format where you need the right cards at the right time. To me, spending all my mana and first few turns on a combination of cards that are both telegraphed and vulnerable is the quickest way to lose the game.

For example:

Streamlined Ninja play pattern with backup vs. carefully planned development against a UR Delver opponent.

-T1 Thopter + Outcast into T2 Ninja with Force backup on the play (dream opener) vs. a Bolt with a Daze/Force backup.

Aftermath: Tapped out with 0/2 Flyer + 1/1 Unblockable with 2 cards less in hand. We gave our aggressive tempo opponent a virtual 5 for 2 trade. We now need to:

-find and/or resolve another Ninja/Foundry to leverage our dead cards;
-avoid drawing into more Thopters and Outcasts;
-prevent our opponent from riding an Arcanist/Pyro to victory.
-do all this while they only have to care about shutting down our next ninja or Foundry.

or

-T1 Thopter or Outcast play with the option of following up with a Ninja or casting Ponder for additional land development mitigating Wasteland/Daze in order to resolve a Strix or a removal spell. Playing it patiently in this scenario allows us to decide at what moment we want to ninjutsu (perhaps when our opponent taps out?) and with what pieces we do so (ninjutsu from a Strix incurs no card disadvantage).

You can imagine a similar scenario against a control deck where you gave them a window for a devastating removal spell and tapped out for them to safely resolve Oko/Teferi which is arguably worse than the UR Delver scenario. Against a combo deck, taping out for 1-2 random cards over 2 turns isn't as good as sculpting your hand during the first 1-3 turns.

The streamlined strategy is better against passive decks like 12-post and High Tide. Ponder makes a more resilient deck that fares better against interactive decks and decks that pose an immediate threat. Do note that these are not mutually exclusive either. You can play a streamlined list with Ponder if you desire. If I put myself in my opponent's shoes, I prefer facing down a predictable deck than one actively trying to shut me down. I believe the best ninjutsu is the one where both players are in topdeck mode with a clear board.

There are other reasons why I chose to play 3 copies of most cards in the deck. I already explained how I played 2-3-4 copies of certain cards before and why I chose to play 2-3 copies in the end. The biggest difference IMO is between 3 copies and 4 copies for statistical relevance in an average game of Magic. 4 copies of a card gives you a net increase in your odds of drawing 2 copies in the early turns and much higher odds of seeing a second copy during the course of a longer game. By this reasoning I definitely don't want more than 3 copies of Thopter and Outcast. What's the point of jumping through all these hoops of enabling a Ninja off a Thopter if you are stuck with multiple dead cards? Besides, with a total of 10 enablers (3 Thopter, 3 Outcasts, 3 Strix), Ninjas will be enabled, it's just a matter of when.

Another reason why I chose 3 copies of Thopter and Outcast is so that I could sideboard them out more easily. Strix and Coatl just laugh at Thopter while Outcast automatically dies to Plague Engineer. Strix is the only reliable setup for a ninja in some matchups.

I play 4 Strix because they singlehandedly transform Delver matchups from unfavorable to favorable and Eldrazi matchups from very unfavorable to favorable. Strix is also the best way to get card advantage from Ninjas against a control opponent. Being blue and cantriping is always relevant and why I never side them out.

I play 3 Bolts because they are a replacement to Fatal Push and not an integral card to my strategy. The red splash is for SB Pyroblasts and Abrade, not for Bolts. I used to play Decay instead but figured I needed Pyroblasts to deal with resolved Oko, Teferi, and Narset through Veil of Summer. Countering Strix/Coatl/Snapcaster is also super relevant. Playing a total of 6 removal spells (3 Bolts + 3 Drown) gives you an estimate of 1 removal spell per 10 cards, which is exactly the odds you want when keeping a Ponder/Brainstorm opener. Given the choice between drawing 2 Bolts or 1 Bolt and a Drown, I take the latter in 99% of cases. Drawing 2 Bolts against a Control or Combo deck when you are already trying to justify Outcasts and Thopters compounds our "dead cards" conundrum. I would only play 4 copies of Bolt the same way I would play 4 copies of Push, which would be in meta saturated in Delver, DnT, and Goblins.

For your list, which seems to be more streamlined, I would definitely play an 18th land in order to maximize your odds of a 2 land opener. I would likely cut Pierce for a 10th Fetch. Lists with 4 Thopter and 4 Outcast utilize Foundry much better and can afford to play 4 copies more reliably as you are. I also think a green splash is better for a more tap-out style of play as you are more likely to need a universal answer for resolved permanents when you proactively spend your mana on ninjas.

Also, why do you pack 2 Needles in your SB? For what cards do you usually bring them in for?

Borg

03-03-2020, 04:09 AM

Qweerios

03-04-2020, 01:15 AM

@Qweerios

Thanks for taking the time to explain your card choices. It's great to get this insight in one's reasoning behind his deck.
It was really enlightening to read that you didn't splash red for the Bolts but because you wanted access to Pyroblast ( and Abrade ) so you could push through Veil.

And just when I wanted to ask you about a green splash ( instead of red ) so you could run Abrupt Decay and Oko you touched on it before I could mention it.
Because Decay cannot be countered, it looks to me that they are somewhat more forgiving than Bolts, no ?
Bolts may be better in the hands of a more experienced player who has an excellent knowledge of the metagame and what's coming up in an opponent's deck.

Unfortunately, that's where I'm currently lacking.
Even though I started playing Magic in 97/98 during the Tempest/Stronghold days, I've been out of the game for long stretches of time.
I don't get to play as much as I would like anymore and catching up is difficult without lots of games. It's frustrating to realize you're behind on the learning curve :)

I understand, often you don't want to see another Outcast whereas when playing four Retrofitter I see an extra Outcast simply as a 4/4 Construct for 1 mana.

As to your question about the needles : their prime targets are Planeswalkers like Oko or Karn so I can save the counterspells/Brazen for other means.
Two copies to let me draw one faster and more reliably. I feel 1 copy is not enough, may never show up or just too late.

I am happy you appreciate the insight! I do enjoy sharing and getting feedback about different builds.

The green splash is where I had the most initial success with the deck during the W6 era. I moved to red when Goyf/W6 left the format and Oko + Veil started taking over. One of the perks of the green splash is having the Crop Rotation package in the SB with Karakas and Bog. This little package frees up mainboard space for some Oko of our own since you don't really need Brazen Borrower when you have access to mainboard Decay and SB Crop-Karakas. It also gives you a lot of percentage points against all the GY decks, Depths, Reanimator and Hogaak in particular that cant be overstated. Abrade is not necessary when you pack Decay. I would still be on the green splash with 18 lands, 3-4 Decays, a pair of Okos and that lovely Crop SB package if Veil of Summer did not require me to play Pyroblast.

I play with 1 Needle every now and then but I can never justify the 2nd copy. I rarely play Needle because I "need" to draw it but because it narrows my decision tree. Much like you mentionned when saving counterspells for other targets. My most common targets for Needle tend to be:

-Oko and nothing else against Snowko decks
-Vial or Mother/Equipment if I am in a pinch vs DnT and Maverick
-Wasteland against Lands and rarely Stage/Maze
-Sneak Attack against SnT and rarely Griselbrand
-Hexmage, Stage, or Reclaimer against Depths
-Karn against stompy decks
-Nexus against Infect

These are about the only matchups I bring Needle in and that's quite narrow for my taste. The main problem I have with Needle is that it isn't even a reliable answer against half of those decks because:

-DnT can flicker it for equipment activations. Needle is very good vs. Vial though and Vial is problematic...
-Lands plays Force of Vigor and EE postboard as a preventive plan for hate cards
-HexDepths plays all the Decays postboard and already has 2 avenues to combo off
-Prison Karn decks are already extremely favorable and the aggro ones don't care about Needle

So really I end up playing Needle mainly for Oko and Vial... However Oko is very popular and Needle is great here at making our opponent hinge on Return to Nature which is already required for Foundry.

On an unrelated note I played a 30ish player weekly tonight to another 4-0 finish. This time I had some pretty close calls in a few matchups. I wasn't surprised to crush Reanimator and Storm but Hogaak is still very difficult to manage and Bant Miracles is always so delicate to navigate. I am still unsure if Cage is the way to go against Hogaak because they pack Force of Vigor and Decay postboard. Surgical is underwhelming here so perhaps Crypt is the way to go. Against Miracles and Hogaak I could have used a 4th Foundry.

Borg

03-04-2020, 12:07 PM

Since you're playing Grixis Ninjas, a card that definitely needs consideration imo is The Royal Scions

The Scions come at the same cost as Oko and he finds room in Sultai Ninja decks.
From a power level standpoint, the Scions are at the same level or not far behind Oko and actually fit in Ninjas better than Oko ( again, IMHO )

Oko's abilities have some overlap with the Retrofitters' and Retrofitters actually do it better ( 4/4 vs 3/3 ).

What can the The Royal Scions bring to Grixis Ninjas ?

- 3 very useful abilities for this deck. Let's start with the +1 ability that gives +2/+0, First Strike and Trample to another creature.

- 2/2 First Strike, Trampling Ornithopters : Ornithopter by himself can actually become a threat and is no longer stopped by a defending Strix ( or any other flyer )
First Strike means he'll take out a lot of potential blockers at the first contact and live to attack again thereafter.

- 3/1 unblockable Changelings : this is like a black TNN but without the protection. All of a sudden this becomes a creature your opponent may have to spend a removal spell on to which you may react by turning it into a Construct. Which brings me to ...

- 6/4 First Strike, Trampling Constructs : now we're talking. No longer chump blocking these monsters with a 1/1 token or a Strix. He'll walk straight over them ... and live.

- 3/1 First Strike, Trampling Strixes of our own : in a mirror match this is a huge advantage imo. Theirs go down, ours may live on.

- 5/1 First Strike, Trampling Borrowers : 5 power !!!

- 3/3 Yuriko and 4/3 First Strike, Trampling Ninjas. The Trample seems to be most important here as this may allow them to connect and draw cards as opposed to being neutralized by chump blockers.

Overall : the +2 power makes every creature a real threat, the First Strike allows them to survive contact ( even with Deathtouch opponents ) and continue to pressure and the Trample allows their big hitters to connect and continue to draw cards with the Ninjas.

- The other +1 ability allows you to loot : digging deeper into your deck and replacing dead cards with new options, what's not to like.

- Finally, the ultimate : draw four cards and deal 4 or more damage to any target means your deck just got more reach and your opponent better stay well above 4 life to play safe.

I can see the Scions taking the place of a 4th Retrofitter and possibly your 4th Bolt.
Probably need to go up to 18 lands.

Curious to hear your opinion on this card.

Qweerios

03-04-2020, 03:16 PM

@Borg,

Thanks for the suggestion. I had not thought about Scion at all in this deck. Here are my immediate thoughts on the card:

First, I don't think Scion is anywhere near Oko in terms of power level. Oko puts permanents on board and neutralizes threats. Scion loots (not even card advantage) and pumps for your attack step.

Combining Oko with Foundry is great because you can now produce Elks every turn if you choose to or start trading Servos for any creature under 4 power.

It's looting ability is fine. Nothing to write home about from a 3CMC PW but rarely wasteful. I like those kind of abilities granted that it can do something else, more impactful.

Scion's pump ability is probably the one I will use the least. Usually if I am in a position to attack, I am tightening my grip on the game. Having +2, first strike and trample can help push the ninja trigger through but isn't something I've been struggling with in the first place. This ability is similar to Oko's Elk ability but only lasts until end of turn and cannot be used to shrink an opposing threat.

The ultimate is great but so far away...

I already don't have a 4th Foundry, 4th Bolt, or 18th land in my list so finding space for Scion would be a tall order.

I think my main point of contempt with Scion is that it doesn't do what I expect this type of card to do for me. I don't play 3 mana planeswalkers to pump my creatures and give me a loot on my dead cards but to start building an insurmountable advantage against passive decks (Control mostly). I think this card does nothing against Combo decks in general and isn't very impactful against Aggro decks especially from a pinned position. Perhaps the most compelling argument I can make against playing Scion would be that I don't even think my Miracles opponent would spend a Pyroblast to get rid of it. They'd rather save it to push Oko through, wipe the board and proceed to ignore Scion altogether. To me that says it all about the card.

Borg

03-06-2020, 04:05 AM

Qweerios

03-06-2020, 11:05 AM

Ok, fair enough arguments.

The scions might be a better fit then in a deck where their power pump may be more impactful, like with Dreadhorde Arcanist ...

Mutavault is another card which has quite some synergy with retrofitter/ninjas but can't find a spot due to the manabase already being very tight, I reckon ?

It appears to me Mutavault would be good either with Standstill or with a Ninja in play on a clear board. I doubt I'll be playing Standstill anytime soon and a Ninja on a clear board is already a winning position. Mutavault being unable to add colored mana would also eat into better slots IMO.

Qweerios

03-08-2020, 08:43 PM

What a weekend just passed! I spent 3 days playing at 4 different Legacy events in my city. Needless to say I played a bunch and learned a thing or two, especially regarding sideboard plans. Here's a really quick recap:

Event 1:

0-2 Bant Miracles
I drew blanks for way too long in G1. G2 I lost to the 3rd consecutive Entreat (2x Mystic Sanctuary). Fun fact, Entreat CMC is the X in the trigger times 2+2 on the stack so Drown really has a hard time hitting it.

2-0 Punishing Maverick
I would have lost G1 but my opponent missplayed. G2 was a cruise.

2-0 Mentor Breach
I had 3 Forces G1 and G2 was a bit more fair.

2-1 Depths
G1 I get turbo'ed and can't respond. G2 I get a Brazen blowout. G3 was a great match with a lot of counterplay and mind games. I clutched it against 3 Marrit Lage with Foundry

Event 2:

1-1-1 vs. 4c Aluren
G1 I rode a quick Foundry. G2 was super long and grindy and I scooped for time when Uro gained 3 life per turn on a crowded board. G3 I had lost on time but had guaranteed lethal the following turn. This matchup feels harder than Bant Miracles.

2-1 vs. DnT
I fall to a few Wastelands G1 and easily cruise G2-3.

0-2 vs. Infect
My opponent Invigorated T2-3 with Berzerk and double Force backup both games. I had fair hands with 2 pieces of interaction but it was not enough.

2-1 vs. Mystic Forge
A really easy matchup in general. I only lost G1 because of Chalice@1 + Chalice@2 on T1-2.

Event 3:

2-0 vs. Eldrazi
I had good Ninja openers backed with Foundry and Strix both games.

1-2 vs. Death's Shadow
Lost G1 to double Delver and double Wasteland pressure on my Mulligan while I drew blanks (3x Outcast). Won G2 playing Control. Lost G3 keeping a mull to 6 with a 1 lander that got Wasted. I almost brought it back after the mana screw and the double Delver, Gurmag and Shadow but the 2nd Wasteland was the nail in the coffin.

1-2 vs. Sneak n Show
I am usually pretty comfortable in this matchup but I lost 2 games to early SnT with double FoW backup. I did make a missplay that cost me 1 game though.

Event 4:

Bye

0-2 vs. Aluren
I got land screwed for the first few turns and eventually made riskier plays in order to make things advance and that's where I lost. G2 I never found a Ninja and flooded pretty hard.

2-0 vs. Sneak n Show
This time I had enough disruption to break his Combo + double counter hands.

2-0 vs. Infect
A couple early removal backed by counters makes this deck run out of gas quite fast.

After all this I broke the 50 games mark with RetroNinjas for a current score of 42-8-1.

List:

3 Ornithopter
3 Changeling Outcast
4 Baleful Strix
3 Ingenious Infiltrator
3 Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
2 Brazen Borrower

3 Lightning Bolt
3 Drown in the Loch
1 Daze
2 Force of Negation
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

3 Retrofitter Foundry

4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
2 Island
1 Swamp
//SB
2 Plague Engineer
2 Abrade
3 Pyroblast
3 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle

In the end I made a few subtle changes to my manabase and SB in order accommodate some of my new SB plans.

-I had my doubts about playing 2x Brazen mainboard but the card is simply essential against Chalice and Lage decks. It is also never bad against Delver and DnT G1 and can be useful against Combo G1 as well.
-I changed both my SB Crypts for a Nihil Spellbomb and a Pithing Needle. Needle is mainly for Oko matchups and Nihil is a value GY-hate card that I can use lategame against Mystic Sanctuary. That way I can side out both Brazen for Needle and Nihil against Miracles.
-I went up to 18 lands mostly because of starting hands and Wasteland matchups. I had to choose between a 3rd USea and a 2nd Island. I'm trying out a 2nd Island to be able to develop to 3 lands against Wastelands. Another reason for the additional land is that I do run out of fetchable lands in long games quite often. I cut a Daze for it given that Daze without the surprise factor is easily played around.
-The last Daze is the flex slot. I like free counters and the psychological edge is very real. Perhaps a 4th Infiltrator would be better...

thefreakaccident

08-21-2024, 07:34 PM

https://www.moxfield.com/decks/YANoedTKwEGP_fA-O_KmsQ

I have updated the deck to include Psychic Frog and Tamiyo.

[/CARDS]
Sorceries//4
4 Ponder

Instants//18
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Fatal Push
1 drown in the loch
1 Murderous Cut
1 sink into stupor

Creatures//21
4 Changeling Outcast
2 Ornithopter
3 Tamiyo, Inquisitive Student
3 Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
3 Ingenious Infiltrator
4 Psychic Frog
2 Orcish Bowmasters

Lands//17 /18 with mdfc

1 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
4 Ponder
3 Prismatic Vista
3 Island
3 Swamp
3 Underground Sea

SIDEBOARD:
2 Back to Basics
2 Brazen Borrower
2 Consign to Memory
1 dismember
2 Force of Negation
2 Null Rod
2 Orcish Bowmasters
2 surgical extraction

[CARDS/]

The deck has 13 ophidian effects, 4 Frog, 6 ninjas, and 3 tamiyo. The ninjas can double up with eachother and Changeling when this happens or is paired with frog you draw a lot of cards every turn. Every real threat in the deck also serves as a form of card advantage, which is nice. Extra cards feed into big frogs, and tamiyo ultimate can dump into immediate Frog kills. Tamiyo is a semi-ideal card for ninjas, because she generates clues, is a nice 0/3 body to block with, and her planes walker side is great for damage races against wide boards and buying back your disruption. She is also very easy to flip.

If anyone can show me how to properly add links to the cards again. I haven't posted here in years.