Hour of Devastation [HOU]

[Gheizen64]

The new spoiled manland is pretty interesting, as it double as a sort of grave-hate. If the activation cost was :1: i would've tried it for sure. At :2: it seems a bit steep.

https://i.redd.it/dzf61h0avw4z.jpg

It's 2, exile a land from target graveyard: 3/4 until EOT

EDIT: nvm it's your graveyard, that's way worse.

[apple713]

Wouldn't this work better running a dual-engine with Replenish, so you could hard-lock (more or less) with Decree of Silence + Solemnity?

unless you win on the spot replenish is not a good deck. AND even then its questionable, since its expensive, and requires cards in grave.

[Darkenslight]

https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2017/06/https-sprcdn-assets.sprinklr.com-619-Driven_Despair_EN-066d65af-d386-4835-a955-68a5e4946497-64783726-2017-06-19-09-07-57.png

Seems like a possible player in Modern, but I don't think it's good enough for Legacy. Definitely a powerful card, though.

[Claymore]

The vanishing cards can't trigger themselves, but they would activate once they died normally.

A graveyard deck based on enchantments wouldn't be terrible. The big grave hate now is DRS and surgical, not debilitating stuff like RIP.

Also, I don't think Crucible would be completely necessary. Just a nice combo with Dark Depths, and if you have Exploration/Wasteland then it helps on that angle too. Part of Crucible's charm in these decks is the combo with Smokestacks, which won't work here.

Something like Wheel of Sun and Moon could work to counteract Gurmag, Snapcaster, Storm as well as give you an out to recycle your combo pieces eventually. Plus act as the mana advancement for Serra's Sanctum or Nykthos.

[morgan_coke]

OMG. Totally forgot about Sanctum and Nykthos. Yeah, those should totally be in there.

Driven to Despair in like, an Azban token deck deck is insane. Honestly if you just connect with 2 creatures it's still probably worth it. 3-4 and it's pretty much a win on the spot.

(Driven) 1G
Your dudes get trample and curiosity

(Despair) 1B
Your dudes get bad hypnotic specter and menace

[rufus]

...
Driven to Despair in like, an Azban token deck deck is insane. ...

It smacks of 'loose more' in the sense that it only helps you when you're already on the board. That said, it doesn't cost that much to cast and allows go-wide aggro decks to close the door pretty hard. I think you're looking more at stuff like affinity, elves or dredge than something like a grindy abzan value plan.

[morgan_coke]

It smacks of 'loose more' in the sense that it only helps you when you're already on the board. That said, it doesn't cost that much to cast and allows go-wide aggro decks to close the door pretty hard. I think you're looking more at stuff like affinity, elves or dredge than something like a grindy abzan value plan.

I see it as more of an Anthem/Equipment type thing. If you're already full of tokens, this makes them close out the game.

[Cire]

http://i.imgur.com/pPkAN5t.png

I mean I know skullclamp can be broken much easier than with this . . . . but I really want to use skullclamp with this :tongue:

[rufus]

I see it as more of an Anthem/Equipment type thing. If you're already full of tokens, this makes them close out the game.

Right, the question is how often does Abzan tokens lose where it 'got full of tokens', but then failed to close out the game?

[tescrin]

honestly, it doesn't take much to make the card usable. If you hit with the same guy twice (maybe a 1/1 flyer) it'll pay off as a 2-for-1 (or if you cast both halves the same turn and hit once.) Putting that next to Blossom or Lingering Souls could easily turn the card into a 4-for-1.

I think it's worth noting that it's combo disruption (discard) and resistant to discard so it has potential to be quite usable. It's not amazing disruption, but I know there have been many times where I'm swinging with 3 guys for like.. 3-4 damage in DGA or something and this card giving you something relevant to do seems ok.

Lastly, it combines really well with Collective Brutality since a T1 DRS, T2 Brutality + Mom pitching this, T3 swing for 2 discard two isn't bad. Not amazing, but in the same way Brutality is OK for fair games and ok for combo games, this card sits in between as a possibly relevant card.

My guess is probably not, but it's a pretty huge effect.
EDIT: It could be good in BUG Faeries,

[Cire]

Reason U
Sorcery
Scry 3.
//
Live 4G
Sorcery
Aftermath
Look at the top card of your library. If it’s a creature card, you may reveal it and put it onto the battlefield. Otherwise, put that card into your hand.

Another way to cheat emrakul out early? It's a total of 6 mana as a sort of 2 card combo, but you can also discard it and combo it with a worldly tutor or brainstorm for a 6 mana 3 card combo.

[Bobmans]

Reason U
Sorcery
Scry 3.
//
Live 4G
Sorcery
Aftermath
Look at the top card of your library. If it’s a creature card, you may reveal it and put it onto the battlefield. Otherwise, put that card into your hand.

Another way to cheat emrakul out early? It's a total of 6 mana as a sort of 2 card combo, but you can also discard it and combo it with a worldly tutor or brainstorm for a 6 mana 3 card combo.
Seems bonkers in UG Cloudpost

[MaximumC]

Reason U
Sorcery
Scry 3.
//
Live 4G
Sorcery
Aftermath
Look at the top card of your library. If it’s a creature card, you may reveal it and put it onto the battlefield. Otherwise, put that card into your hand.

Another way to cheat emrakul out early? It's a total of 6 mana as a sort of 2 card combo, but you can also discard it and combo it with a worldly tutor or brainstorm for a 6 mana 3 card combo.

Oh, Wizards. Thank you for trying. We all love those 1 mana blue draw spells. Hopefully, the fact that it doesn't draw a card for U will keep it from being broken too hard and banned.

P.S. I love this card.

[Claymore]

Plays perfectly with Sensei's To...oh, wait.

[MaximumC]

Plays perfectly with Sensei's To...oh, wait.

You're not thinking with portals.

This card plays just fine with itself. In the early game, you just pitch them to dig for gas. Then, when you draw one in the late game, you use it to set up the Flashback side of the same card that is sitting in your graveyard.

This card is phenomenal and has all the hallmarks of being potentially very broken (for Modern; eternal can handle it.) It's a one mana dig spell. It cheats out large creatures without paying their mana costs, a classic abusable mechanic. On top of that, it even draws a card in a pinch if you need a desperation card to stay alive.

[Claymore]

It only does Scry 3, it doesn't draw a card.

Unless you're talking the backside of 4G: Draw a card (if it's not a creature).

[Barook]

You're not thinking with portals.

This card plays just fine with itself. In the early game, you just pitch them to dig for gas. Then, when you draw one in the late game, you use it to set up the Flashback side of the same card that is sitting in your graveyard.

This card is phenomenal and has all the hallmarks of being potentially very broken (for Modern; eternal can handle it.) It's a one mana dig spell. It cheats out large creatures without paying their mana costs, a classic abusable mechanic. On top of that, it even draws a card in a pinch if you need a desperation card to stay alive.
It's probably still more abusable in Eternal since we have the option of EoT Derpstorm --> this as S&T copies #5+ that are one-sided. And then there's also Worldly Tutor. Being 5 mana is the only thing that hinders it from being broken in Eternal.

[MaximumC]

It only does Scry 3, it doesn't draw a card.

Unless you're talking the backside of 4G: Draw a card (if it's not a creature).

Nah dawg I know it doesnt' draw a card on the U side, but it scrys 3, which is pretty good. They're definitely pushing the limits of what kind of blue effect they can do at U that's playable without letting Storm get loose in their precious Modern format.

But it's still a good blue cantrip, and the fact that it plays with itself to cheat out Emrakul is, well, a thing.


It's probably still more abusable in Eternal since we have the option of EoT Derpstorm --> this as S&T copies #5+ that are one-sided. And then there's also Worldly Tutor.

This is sorcery tho.


Being 5 mana is the only thing that hinders it from being broken in Eternal.

https://i.imgur.com/qTXMXqJ.png

[Barook]

This is sorcery tho.
Sure thing, I never said anything else. You use your EoT Brainstorm to set it during the opponent's turn, then cast it during your own turn.

[DLifshitz]

This card is phenomenal and has all the hallmarks of being potentially very broken (for Modern; eternal can handle it.)

IMVHO it might have been breakable if it let you cast a creature card instead of just putting it into play, or if it granted haste. As it stands, it's not quite an 'Oops, I win' effect. It does not seem superior to Summoning Trap or Through the Breach.

[Doishy]

But it's still a good blue cantrip,

You use the word cantrip, but I'm not sure you know what it means here...

[Kanti]

You use the word cantrip, but I'm not sure you know what it means here...

I was just about to post this. What the hell are you on about it being a good cantrip? It's not a good cantrip, because it's not a cantrip. Is it a great card that will find a home in Eternal? I'd bet on it. I mean, it's really, really good imho and has me even more excited for the set.

But to say something like "pitch these early game to dig for gas" is just... what? Did you read the card? You woudn't be digging, as you aren't replacing the draw. You even say it again at the end, "and again, it draws a card if you need to in a pinch". For 4G it does.

[Claymore]

It looks like pure ass to me idk. Modern will probably see play because anything non interactive goes in that format, but too many hoops to jump through here. Plus it just seems very awkward, play it turn 1 and it doesn't play into its backside. Set up with brainstorm and you're largely wasting braincestral recalls.

It's good at an incredibly slow show and tell effect to counteract heavy discard matchups and that's about it.

[Barook]

No Legacy-material, but interesting nonetheless:

http://mythicspoiler.com/hou/cards/thescarabgod.jpg

[Dice_Box]

What's the story with these new gods? Old ones corrupted?

[Barook]

What's the story with these new gods? Old ones corrupted?
There were originally 8 Gods on the plane - Bolas snatched those three, corrupted them into being his servants and mindwiped/brainwashed the rest of the gods/mortals into forgetting them and turning him into the God-Pharaoh.

The last 60 years, the remaining Gods did the trials to ship the top elite warriors into the "afterlife" - a trick by Bolas to get the very best for his personal Necron army.

[rufus]

Are there any decks out there that want to play Intruder Alarm + Steward of Solidarity ?

[apple713]

Are there any decks out there that want to play Intruder Alarm + Steward of Solidarity ?

idk but a UW combo that only cost 5 mana total and has potential to win the game isnt bad. Intruder alarm isnt a dead card alone. Its not as powerful as S&T obviously but its something.

Presence of gond is probably better since it doesnt require a specific creature and can avoid summoning sickness. BUT since this was never a thing seward probbly wont be eitehr.

[BenBleiweiss]

http://i.imgur.com/OzCrMRf.png

This one has potential right? Unearth #2 + Haste?

[Darkenslight]

http://i.imgur.com/OzCrMRf.png

This one has potential right? Unearth #2 + Haste?

It reads, " :b: : Return target Tarmogoyf or Deathrite Shaman from your graveyard to the battlefield." I'd say that's a little good.

[Dice_Box]

Slightly powered down Unearth yes. The issue is Unearth sees no play and adding Haste is not the most stunning addition. If it had Fight as the second opinion...

[Cire]

Djeru the Purified 3WW
Legendary Creature - Human Warrior
Vigilance
When Djeru the Purified enters the battlefield, you may search your library for a planeswalker card, reveal it, then shuffle your library.
Whenever a source would deal damage to a planeswalker you control, prevent 1 of that damage.
4/3

I HOPE that this card has been spoiled wrong, because as spoiled . . . . you're just revealing the PW, you're not actually doing anything with it :laugh:

[Rascalyote]

Djeru the Purified 3WW
Legendary Creature - Human Warrior
Vigilance
When Djeru the Purified enters the battlefield, you may search your library for a planeswalker card, reveal it, then shuffle your library.
Whenever a source would deal damage to a planeswalker you control, prevent 1 of that damage.
4/3

I HOPE that this card has been spoiled wrong, because as spoiled . . . . you're just revealing the PW, you're not actually doing anything with it :laugh:

It's so you can make them extra salty when you top deck the Jace that you just revealed :^) .

[Lemnear]

I HOPE that this card has been spoiled wrong, because as spoiled . . . . you're just revealing the PW, you're not actually doing anything with it :laugh:

Nah, you put it into you hand according to the original picture of IGN Germany

[BenBleiweiss]

http://media.wizards.com/2017/hou/en_BD8Ez3Ftte.png

GG
5/4
Exhaustion yourself

Snapcaster it later

Discuss!

[Ace/Homebrew]

Discuss!
Best of the cycle from the 3 we've gotten so far.

[Cire]

Nah, you put it into you hand according to the original picture of IGN Germany

I am relieved and disappointed. :laugh:

[Ephemeron]

That's a pretty well designed card, but I think GG makes it unplayable for any legacy deck that's in the market for a cheap dumb beater (i.e., Delver). Goyf is still worlds better (obvious statement is obvious).

[morgan_coke]

Uncage the Menagerie
XGG
Sorcery
Search your library for up to X creature cards with different names that each have converted mana cost X, reveal them, and put them into your hand.

For five mana that's three 3cmc creatures, or for four mana it's two 2cmc creatures. I think X=3 and X=2 are the sweet spots for this. Strong, not sure if it'll find a home in Legacy at that price, will definitely see play in Std and Mod.

[Cire]

Uncage the Menagerie
XGG
Sorcery
Search your library for up to X creature cards with different names that each have converted mana cost X, reveal them, and put them into your hand.

For five mana that's three 3cmc creatures, or for four mana it's two 2cmc creatures. I think X=3 and X=2 are the sweet spots for this. Strong, not sure if it'll find a home in Legacy at that price, will definitely see play in Std and Mod.

What's the best 2 or three card combo for this? Cephalid Illusionist and Shaman en-Kor? 2GG into next turn 2UW into Breakfast combo?

Edit:

Also the green last stand seems pretty good to me. . .

Turn 1 - Land - DRS
Turn 2 - Land - Last stand - get a 5/4 into play
Turn 3 - DRS untaps - land (still have 2 mana open) - Gofy? (Attack with 5/4)
Turn 4 - Snap caster - Last Stand (Attack with 5/4 and Gofy)
Turn 5 - Land (2 mana open) - (Attack with 2 5/4s and Gofy)?

Have plenty of room for Dazes/FOW maybe even delver since the Last stand is a spell not a creature.

OR

Run it with Mox Diamonds or whatever, and then cast it turn 1 off 1 land and mox, and the next turn have 2 mana open instead of 3? Combine with new Green Crucible (so you can discard wasteland no worries)?

Turn 1 - Land - Mox Diamond, Discard Wasteland - Last stand
Turn 2 - Land - Gofy?
Turn 3 - Crucible/Green Crucible --> wastelock with Gofy and a 5/4 in play?

[BenBleiweiss]

http://s3.gatheringmagic.com/uploads/2017/06/22/JA_1.jpg

Any instance where this is better than/a replacement for Griselbrand (I don't think so, but repeatable Grim Tutor (2 instead of 3 damage) is something to at least look at)

[Ephemeron]

Uncage the Menagerie
XGG
Sorcery
Search your library for up to X creature cards with different names that each have converted mana cost X, reveal them, and put them into your hand.

For five mana that's three 3cmc creatures, or for four mana it's two 2cmc creatures. I think X=3 and X=2 are the sweet spots for this. Strong, not sure if it'll find a home in Legacy at that price, will definitely see play in Std and Mod.

Maybe GB Rock decks want this, as it represents some card advantage. Paying 4 to get 2 of goyf/bob/grim flayer/scooze seems fine. Splash white and you can add SFM and Teeg to that list.

[tescrin]

Have plenty of room for Dazes/FOW maybe even delver since the Last stand is a spell not a creature.

This is actually why I'm surprised Unearth never gained any speed. I think it's a mix of "not a threat on its own" and "DRS can counter it"; but cycling + putting a 1-drop TNN that flips delver onto the field seems fine.

I think the main thing Snakey-Mcgee has going is that he's not grave reliant; and that's a reasonably large deal if you've run a Goyf/KotR + DRS + grave thing deck; as RiP just shits on you. trading some future mana is.. *ok*. It also kills Angler without Artifact/Enchant/Walker in the grave and is a 4 instead of 5 turn clock, all of which make it adequate competition.

[Gheizen64]

Seems like Goyf is just better in a vaste majority of situations tbh. Not a bad card, but goyf exist.

[Cire]

Yeah but it could be goyf 5-8, and also I think it's larger than gofy especially if you're running DRS to eat people's graveyards.

[Darkenslight]

http://s3.gatheringmagic.com/uploads/2017/06/22/JA_1.jpg

Any instance where this is better than/a replacement for Griselbrand (I don't think so, but repeatable Grim Tutor (2 instead of 3 damage) is something to at least look at)

I could see some bizarre version of TinFins running this and Griz side-by-side to Storm-kill. I mean, it's a strong card to reanimate in Reanimator, as it basically solves their inconsistency issues in one fell swoop.

[PirateKing]

I could see some bizarre version of TinFins running this and Griz side-by-side to Storm-kill. I mean, it's a strong card to reanimate in Reanimator, as it basically solves their inconsistency issues in one fell swoop.

Nah not really. Since you can't self-sacrifice, you need other creatures to feed him, so at the point of the game where you've fought through everything to successfully reanimate something, that should be your win condition, not to reanimate something to help you find something to reanimate to win.
If he could eat himself to dodge StP or something, maybe I'd give it a second look.

[maharis]

This is actually why I'm surprised Unearth never gained any speed. I think it's a mix of "not a threat on its own" and "DRS can counter it"; but cycling + putting a 1-drop TNN that flips delver onto the field seems fine.

I think the main thing Snakey-Mcgee has going is that he's not grave reliant; and that's a reasonably large deal if you've run a Goyf/KotR + DRS + grave thing deck; as RiP just shits on you. trading some future mana is.. *ok*. It also kills Angler without Artifact/Enchant/Walker in the grave and is a 4 instead of 5 turn clock, all of which make it adequate competition.

Unearth is actually simply underplayed. For any deck that would play it, it is an excellent trump card in the grindy mirror. This card will see play in the modern Deaths Shadow decks and may make it into legacy if those are ported, but the presence of TNN/Leovold/Mentor makes the 2 cmc vs 3 cmc too relevant for Legacy.

Snake card is cool but I can't think of a deck that can make GG and doesn't have better options even in the face of grave hate.


Maybe GB Rock decks want this, as it represents some card advantage. Paying 4 to get 2 of goyf/bob/grim flayer/scooze seems fine. Splash white and you can add SFM and Teeg to that list.

You can pay 2GG to put Progenitus into play. You can pay 3G at instant speed to put two <=3 drops into play. You can even pay 2GG to draw 3 cards. I can't see this card ever being played, even though it's a cool design. If you didn't have to match the CMC it could've been a potential Elves card but even then would've been fringe.


You're not thinking with portals.

This card plays just fine with itself. In the early game, you just pitch them to dig for gas. Then, when you draw one in the late game, you use it to set up the Flashback side of the same card that is sitting in your graveyard.

This card is phenomenal and has all the hallmarks of being potentially very broken (for Modern; eternal can handle it.) It's a one mana dig spell. It cheats out large creatures without paying their mana costs, a classic abusable mechanic. On top of that, it even draws a card in a pinch if you need a desperation card to stay alive.

4G is barely breaking the mana cost. Legacy doesn't need the manipulation side of this and no one plays Call of the Wild.

[16km]

Nah not really. Since you can't self-sacrifice, you need other creatures to feed him, so at the point of the game where you've fought through everything to successfully reanimate something, that should be your win condition, not to reanimate something to help you find something to reanimate to win.
If he could eat himself to dodge StP or something, maybe I'd give it a second look.

Maybe as a 3/1 or 2/2 split with Griselbrand? RB Reanimator can play Simian Spirit Guide again as a cheap creature to sac. But, I guess if you're at that point, it's just a win-more?

The Young Pyromancer Reanimator builds might be able to use him?

[Barook]

http://media.wizards.com/2017/hou/en_BD8Ez3Ftte.png

GG
5/4
Exhaustion yourself

Snapcaster it later

Discuss!
I'm more a fan of

T1: Noble Hierarch
T2: this
T3: Exalted + Invigorate + Berserk --> 20 trample power

Whether or not it's better than an Infect shell is a different question, but I can see potential there as it has a rock-solid body by itself unlike the Infect gimps. It plays best with mana accelerants that aren't lands, aka Noble Hierarch and ESG.

[Richard Cheese]

I'm more a fan of

T1: Noble Hierarch
T2: this
T3: Exalted + Invigorate + Berserk --> 20 trample power

Whether or not it's better than an Infect shell is a different question, but I can see potential there as it has a rock-solid body by itself unlike the Infect gimps. It plays best with mana accelerants that aren't lands, aka Noble Hierarch and ESG.

Sheltering Ancient as a backup?

[rufus]

Best of the cycle from the 3 we've gotten so far.

Fun with populate cards.

[rufus]

What's the best 2 or three card combo for this? Cephalid Illusionist and Shaman en-Kor? 2GG into next turn 2UW into Breakfast combo?
...

Weird Harvest doesn't see any play. This card doesn't seem significantly better.

[Ace/Homebrew]

What's the best 2 or three card combo for this?
Vizier of Remedies and Devoted Druid

Card has potential for Modern. :rolleyes:

[rufus]

...
Exhaustion yourself
...


Huh... Do lands that enter play under your control after the spell resolves untap?

In other words, is that "lands you control [now]" or "lands you control [during your next untap step]"?

[Dice_Box]

All tapped lands next turn stay tapped. In short, you skip your untap step purely for lands.

[from Cairo]

I could see some bizarre version of TinFins running this and Griz side-by-side to Storm-kill. I mean, it's a strong card to reanimate in Reanimator, as it basically solves their inconsistency issues in one fell swoop.

If there is any debate of inconsistency in reanimator its issues would be the steps leading up to a successful reanimation. If you've put a CMC 8 creature onto the battlefield it should be one that wins the game.


Maybe as a 3/1 or 2/2 split with Griselbrand? RB Reanimator can play Simian Spirit Guide again as a cheap creature to sac. But, I guess if you're at that point, it's just a win-more?

The Young Pyromancer Reanimator builds might be able to use him?

Griselbrand is just always better.

[BenBleiweiss]

Huh... Do lands that enter play under your control after the spell resolves untap?

In other words, is that "lands you control [now]" or "lands you control [during your next untap step]"?

It doesn't tap your lands, it just keeps your lands from untapping. Any lands you play after the spell but before your next turn enter play untapped. Daze, for instance, would work particularly well with this cycle (T2 - Rhonas's Last Stand w/ a Tropical Island out would let you Daze, and then replay the land untapped on T3).

[rufus]

It doesn't tap your lands, it just keeps your lands from untapping. Any lands you play after the spell but before your next turn enter play untapped. Daze, for instance, would work particularly well with this cycle (T2 - Rhonas's Last Stand w/ a Tropical Island out would let you Daze, and then replay the land untapped on T3).

The question was: Suppose you play and tap a land after you play the spell. Does that land untap? (Dice Box already answered.)

[tescrin]

If there is any debate of inconsistency in reanimator its issues would be the steps leading up to a successful reanimation. If you've put a CMC 8 creature onto the battlefield it should be one that wins the game.

Griselbrand is just always better.
I agree.

If we're honest, I think aside from Trample and being an 8/8, he's actually a *lot* worse than Rune-Scarred Demon; who doesn't require extra hoops. [And no one plays that]

[Noctalor]

https://i.gyazo.com/41cb3e004302f6dc4dff5ad1317e35e3.png

Can this bird outclass clique?

[BenBleiweiss]

https://227rsi2stdr53e3wto2skssd7xe-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Nimble_Obstructionist_EN.png

The wrong side of Stifle? "you don't control" really hurts this card - but it is uncounterable.

[mistercakes]

Still hits fetchlands, deathrite shaman, Storm triggers. Seems great.

[Gheizen64]

Could even be better than clique wow. Well miracles aside.

[rufus]

Still hits fetchlands, deathrite shaman, Storm triggers. Seems great.

The mana cost is too high. It also doesn't trigger on cast.

[iostream]

This and Clique occupy totally different roles. I don't think this competes with Clique at all. Otherwise, 2U is really expensive for a Stifle, seems too slow for Legacy.

[PirateKing]

Clique does it's thing and then hits them until they die.

This guy is cool for a number of reasons, but because you have to pick between the body and the ability, I don't think it will become Clique good.

But this guy is still cool.

[maharis]

https://227rsi2stdr53e3wto2skssd7xe-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Nimble_Obstructionist_EN.png

The wrong side of Stifle? "you don't control" really hurts this card - but it is uncounterable.

Their T2: Stifle your fetch, draw a card
Your T3: Unearth, Standstill

Edit: I wish this was a different color so there actually could be a deckbuilding consideration but I guess that's too much to ask.

This card is niche but strong enough.

[morgan_coke]

Looks like Budget players finally got an option to replace Clique with. In some, specific decks, this will be better. And it's Uncommon. Nice job Wizards.

[mistercakes]

Vs Storm its a must discard and only by therapy game 1.

[ReAnimator]

Looks like Budget players finally got an option to replace Clique with. In some, specific decks, this will be better. And it's Uncommon. Nice job Wizards.

It's a rare.

[wcm8]

Looks like Budget players finally got an option to replace Clique with. In some, specific decks, this will be better. And it's Uncommon. Nice job Wizards.

Looks like a Rare to me?

[rufus]

...
Your T3: Unearth, Standstill
...

Yeah, it's good against standstill, but how much of the meta is that?

[MaximumC]

Clique does it's thing and then hits them until they die.


Ding ding ding ding. And, that's leaving aside the fact that this and Clique do totally different things. Would you consider Brainstorm to be a card that fills the role of Stifle? No? Then why would you think Birdman can stand in for Clique?



This guy is cool for a number of reasons, but because you have to pick between the body and the ability, I don't think it will become Clique good.

But this guy is still cool.


Agreed, but I think it's more of a modern card than a Legacy card. At 3 mana, you're not hitting early fetches. Nevertheless, it gives you a main-deckable answer to problem cards and combos that otherwise might pull your pants down. In your hand, this guards against everything Stifle does, while being a beater if the opposing deck is not vulnerable to that kind of attack.

It's a Good Card.

[Claymore]

The only big activated ability I see this guy countering that you care about is a Griselbrand activation or Craterhoof trigger. Or maybe counter a Jace ultimate/snapcaster ETB.

Too slow to fight fetches properly, with 3 mana out you likely don't care about Wasteland/don't want to be holding up 3 lands to fight that effect, bad trade off to counter a DRS activation. Against Dark Depths its okay, but same problem that Stifle has.

Cool card but seems iffy. Either its a flash 3/1 beater/delver killer, or it's basically an expensive Trickbind.

[MaximumC]

Either its a flash 3/1 beater/delver killer, or it's basically an expensive Trickbind.

That might be good enough, though. In your hand, it's a threat-in-being. You can wait until the end of the turn and, if you need to save your ass against a bad trigger, there you go. If not, deploy your 3/1. It's a lot of flexibility, and control decks in particular really need stuff like that to keep them sufficiently answer-dense.

[Cire]

I do find the idea of a Stifle.Dec funny though - just hate on fetches so hard.

4 Stifle
4 Trickbind
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Counterspell

4 Nimble Obstructionist
4 Delver
4 Snapcaster
4 Phyrexian Dreadnaught

8 Fetch
8 Islands
4 Wasteland

Not a good deck by any stretch of the imagination, but lmao - I can see it being super annoying. And that's what's important. :wink:

[maharis]

Yeah, it's good against standstill, but how much of the meta is that?

My idea was to use it WITH unearth/standstill as a way to disrupt then get a threat out. Just spitballin.

I don't think think anyone believes this card is as good as Clique, but it is a good card that could find a home. Playable effect, affordable mana cost, blue goes a long way.

[Megadeus]

I'm with Maharis. My very first thought was this in standstill. This guy is sick as fuck. A stifle that draws a card and stops them from wasting my factory without triggering standstill? Fucking A this card is sick

[Kanti]

Their T2: Stifle your fetch, draw a card
Your T3: Unearth, Standstill

Edit: I wish this was a different color so there actually could be a deckbuilding consideration but I guess that's too much to ask.

This card is niche but strong enough.

You wish other colors had Stifle effects? I wish blue had effect effects, but I guess thats too much to ask. This card is cool, but like PirateKing said, Clique hits you in the face until you die.

Also, holy camoly just noticed your handle Pirate King. FLCL is the greatest.

[Fox]

Eh, Nimble Obstructionist is at least interesting. You really have to ask yourself why you think Clique is a good card if you're actually considering swapping it out, I guess. You're talking about a card that costs 3 mana in a deck that probably only runs 14 lands + 4 Wastelands and also uses Daze - how exactly are you going to cast this card (DRS i guess)? You get to 3 mana in a deck like that you're competing for slots at the cmc point where a sideboard card is supposed to have huge impact, and this card just doesn't.

3/1 flash, flying beatstick is definitely good enough to see legacy play, but it's not really a tool Stifle deck will want. This card is more for people who like the idea of having access to Stifle but don't want to draw Stifle (b/c it's a dead card...unless you run Dreadnoughts); now they can draw a wincon instead. I doubt there's much effective difference between casting your 3/1 at instant speed whether or not it has a beneficial ETB, but I don't think you can continue to justify it when talking adding in Karakas and Leovold synergies.

[Claymore]

Now, if Top and Terminus was still legal? Different ballgame.

[maharis]

You wish other colors had Stifle effects? I wish blue had effect effects, but I guess thats too much to ask.

Effects change colors all the time. Spirit of the Labyrinth became a BUG card. If this was not blue it would be a little more interesting just because it might resuscitate/open up a deck that we can't all just name 24 cards in already.


Eh, Nimble Obstructionist is at least interesting. You really have to ask yourself why you think Clique is a good card if you're actually considering swapping it out, I guess. You're talking about a card that costs 3 mana in a deck that probably only runs 14 lands + 4 Wastelands and also uses Daze - how exactly are you going to cast this card (DRS i guess)? You get to 3 mana in a deck like that you're competing for slots at the cmc point where a sideboard card is supposed to have huge impact, and this card just doesn't.

3/1 flash, flying beatstick is definitely good enough to see legacy play, but it's not really a tool Stifle deck will want. This card is more for people who like the idea of having access to Stifle but don't want to draw Stifle (b/c it's a dead card...unless you run Dreadnoughts); now they can draw a wincon instead. I doubt there's much effective difference between casting your 3/1 at instant speed whether or not it has a beneficial ETB, but I don't think you can continue to justify it when talking adding in Karakas and Leovold synergies.

I don't think you necessarily use this with Stifle as all-in mana denial. There are lots of triggers and activations that could be good to stop while not going down a card.

Ancestral Vision
Shardless Agent
Flickerwisp
Batterskull
Stoneforge Mystic
Animate Dead
Vampire Hexmage
Terminus
Entreat the Angels
Snapcaster Mage

How often do people just suicide a creature to get Jitte counters? Just stopping that could be a blowout.

This is basically a modal card: either stifle draw or a 3/1. Question is how strong the modes are.

[Fox]

I don't think you necessarily use this with Stifle as all-in mana denial. There are lots of triggers and activations that could be good to stop while not going down a card.

Ancestral Vision
Shardless Agent
Flickerwisp
Batterskull
Stoneforge Mystic
Animate Dead
Vampire Hexmage
Terminus
Entreat the Angels
Snapcaster Mage

How often do people just suicide a creature to get Jitte counters? Just stopping that could be a blowout.

This is basically a modal card: either stifle draw or a 3/1. Question is how strong the modes are.
Most of those things you've listed will have already taken place before you have mana online to cycle this guy. About half of them are either repeatable or create a situation where you'd rather have the 3/1. If you're passing up Clique's pseudo-discard, you're in black for actual discard (also, you're a DRS deck...that then means an amount of Leovold)...the question becomes why are you doing this? People justify Clique b/c it's "good vs combo," whereas this guy is kinda has a "coolness" factor (in the same way that people suboptimally run JVP over SCM, because it's "cool"). Optimal home seems like mono-U stompy deck or a fairly outrageous plan of cycle-to-Stifle followed by activate Volrath's Stronghold to redraw this guy off its own cycling ability still on stack...or some Oath of Ghouls nonsense (which actually is fairly oppressive in a Leovold/DRS shell, if not realistic).

[Darkenslight]

Most of those things you've listed will have already taken place before you have mana online to cycle this guy. About half of them are either repeatable or create a situation where you'd rather have the 3/1. If you're passing up Clique's pseudo-discard, you're in black for actual discard (also, you're a DRS deck...that then means an amount of Leovold)...the question becomes why are you doing this? People justify Clique b/c it's "good vs combo," whereas this guy is kinda has a "coolness" factor (in the same way that people suboptimally run JVP over SCM, because it's "cool"). Optimal home seems like mono-U stompy deck or a fairly outrageous plan of cycle-to-Stifle followed by activate Volrath's Stronghold to redraw this guy off its own cycling ability still on stack...or some Oath of Ghouls nonsense (which actually is fairly oppressive in a Leovold/DRS shell, if not realistic).

I'd argue that this is good against a variety of combo decks in Legacy; it stops the cast trigger on Time'Rakul, negates the first Griz activation, counters Storm/Belch activations, negates late-game Wastes/Fetches, stops Tasigur activations. Without Flash, it would be a much weaker card. I'm pretty certain that it will see play as an anti-combo beater, even if it's only out of the board.

[UseLess]

https://227rsi2stdr53e3wto2skssd7xe-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Nimble_Obstructionist_EN.png

The wrong side of Stifle? "you don't control" really hurts this card - but it is uncounterable.

Somebody on Magicspoiler.com pointed out that this wording allows you to cycle the card even when there is nothing to respond to on the stack. If it could counter your own abilities and triggers cycling it with an empty stack would force you to stifle your own cycling trigger. Seems quite a relevant point.

I like the card a lot. Maybe not legacy material, but definitely a fun/interesting card. Now I need to figure out what to cut from my cube for this!

[Crimhead]

You wish other colors had Stifle effects?
Not quite Stifle, but :g: has Bind.

[kombatkiwi]

Somebody on Magicspoiler.com pointed out that this wording allows you to cycle the card even when there is nothing to respond to on the stack. If it could counter your own abilities and triggers cycling it with an empty stack would force you to stifle your own cycling trigger. Seems quite a relevant point.

I like the card a lot. Maybe not legacy material, but definitely a fun/interesting card. Now I need to figure out what to cut from my cube for this!

This is true but they could have avoided this by just making it a may-trigger

[civet five]

This is true but they could have avoided this by just making it a may-trigger

That would be inconsistent with them dumbing down the game. Forced triggers and/or causing it to counter itself would make kiddos upset

[UseLess]

This is true but they could have avoided this by just making it a may-trigger

Doh, yeah, of course. Well, then it's just a shame they didn't give the additional option. Can't think of anything that would make this too busted. For three mana you can also cast a Show and Tell or something alike. That can maybe be countered, but so can whatever it is you're using the stifle option on. Dumbing down it is then! :p

[maharis]

Most of those things you've listed will have already taken place before you have mana online to cycle this guy. About half of them are either repeatable or create a situation where you'd rather have the 3/1. If you're passing up Clique's pseudo-discard, you're in black for actual discard (also, you're a DRS deck...that then means an amount of Leovold)...the question becomes why are you doing this? People justify Clique b/c it's "good vs combo," whereas this guy is kinda has a "coolness" factor (in the same way that people suboptimally run JVP over SCM, because it's "cool"). Optimal home seems like mono-U stompy deck or a fairly outrageous plan of cycle-to-Stifle followed by activate Volrath's Stronghold to redraw this guy off its own cycling ability still on stack...or some Oath of Ghouls nonsense (which actually is fairly oppressive in a Leovold/DRS shell, if not realistic).

You are overestimating how often these mid- to late-game triggers come down in accelerated fashion, and underestimating how swingy it can be to stop them without going down a card yourself (which is a relevant point).

Comparing this card to Vendilion Clique is incorrect. Clique may be a better card, but they don't really do the same thing. For example, Vendilion Clique doesn't do much after they DRS -> Agent -> Visions anyway. The interesting thing about this card is that in the mid-game, you can stop them from pulling ahead with a big play like AV or Terminus, but if you draw this late you just make a 3/1 and go to town.

[Kanti]

Effects change colors all the time. Spirit of the Labyrinth became a BUG card. If this was not blue it would be a little more interesting just because it might resuscitate/open up a deck that we can't all just name 24 cards in already.


Unless you are stuck in Time Spiral, no they don't. Leovold cost BUG. The BG cost grants it's Spirit of the Lab effect, and the U gives it it's Kira-like effect. Player's cant draw more than one card per turn is on 1-other card, and a recent one at that, so it has never been a historically white effect.

[BenBleiweiss]

Looks like Budget players finally got an option to replace Clique with. In some, specific decks, this will be better. And it's Uncommon. Nice job Wizards.

It's Rare. The set symbol rarity has actually been really hard to read on this set (due to Bolas' horns being so thin), but you can check the letter code on the bottom of the card!

[Barook]

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/163/981/636337822986936699.png

Expensive, yes, but also flexible for its price.

[Darkenslight]

This is true but they could have avoided this by just making it a may-trigger

/"...you don't control'"

It has no effect except to draw a card if there's nothing it can legally target.

[Megadeus]

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/163/981/636337822986936699.png

Expensive, yes, but also flexible for its price.

Like I said in a facebook group. At two mana this would be really really good. At 3 it's unplayable. I'll stick with collective brutality as my flexible black removal/discard spell for now

[Darkenslight]

5 new cards:

http://media.wizards.com/2017/hou/en_qPxIgzMnkU.png

http://media.wizards.com/2017/hou/en_28ghbzrFQ7.png

http://media.wizards.com/2017/hou/en_DHNfpJouqy.png

http://media.wizards.com/2017/hou/en_nZSvprxX5r.png

http://media.wizards.com/2017/hou/en_hmLUjsTTGZ.png

Nothing major for Legacy or even Modern, from initial looks at it.

[Claymore]

Torment of Hailfire looks fun, and the Torment of Scarabs seems interesting in a pox type deck.

But, both are likely slated for Commander if anything.

[Finn]

Torment of Hailfire is so lovely in EDH. Massive advantage in multiplayer even at relatively small values for x. "nonland" makes all the difference, as this becomes a bonafide wincon too.

[maharis]

The BG cost grants it's Spirit of the Lab effect ... Player's cant draw more than one card per turn is on 1-other card, and a recent one at that, so it has never been a historically white effect.

Which is it? You could easily make the case for this card to be mono-white because of Spirit of the Lab and Reparations/Karmic Justice (trigger on target/destroy)

I disagree that these effects have to be in U all the time. Green in particular has messed around in this area quite a bit. Stopping abilities as a permanent (Needle, new probe-needle, Revoker) is a colorless effect.

I do think that one of the reasons they are is specifically so they can have an impact in eternal formats because they are so blue already. In a similar way they have powered up D&T a lot with new hatebears and Recruiter of the Guard (despite the fact that creature tutoring has tilted heavily toward G).

What I am looking for is a reason to do something else besides DRS, Brainstorm, Force, Ponder, 1-mana removal of choice, Underground Sea.

[kombatkiwi]

/"...you don't control'"

It has no effect except to draw a card if there's nothing it can legally target.

The discussion was:
"Why did wizards make this card unable to target your own abilities?" (For Dreadnought or whatever)
"Because then if you cycled it on an empty stack it would counter itself"
"Well why didn't they just make it a may trigger then"
"Oh"

Edit: Torment of Scarabs seemed like it might be playable in Pox when I first looked at it but it seems like it's just The Rack for 4 mana the more that I think about it.
It does get scary really fast with Curse of Misfortune + the expensive black curse from Amonkhet but that's probably only worth trying in Modern.

Edit again: It seems like a bit of a flavor fail to not have these be named Torment of Scarabs/Scorpions/Locusts but I guess having 3 Monoblack spells with those names would be too hard to differentiate with unique mechanical effects that also make sense flavor-wise? I wouldn't have even considered it if one of them didn't have 'Scarabs' in the name.
Edit again: And then the venom one mentions Scorpions in the flavor text but the 3rd one has nothing to do with locusts????? Somebody get Matt Sperling on the phone

[jandax]

Black is busted in limited 😶

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[Cire]

Edit again: It seems like a bit of a flavor fail to not have these be named Torment of Scarabs/Scorpions/Locusts but I guess having 3 Monoblack spells with those names would be too hard to differentiate with unique mechanical effects that also make sense flavor-wise? I wouldn't have even considered it if one of them didn't have 'Scarabs' in the name.
Edit again: And then the venom one mentions Scorpions in the flavor text but the 3rd one has nothing to do with locusts????? Somebody get Matt Sperling on the phone

The Torments are only for the two Black gods + the God Pharaoh, the Locust God isn't black. :wink:

[tescrin]

Hailfire could see minor play. It's potential for large card advantage and it's also a win con. Casted on an empty v empty board, this reads 9 damage for 5 mana, which is quite substantial. I don't expect it to make a splash, but that's really high damage potential on stalled or accelerated boardstates. I could see running it in the Bloodbraid slot in Jund or some end-game slot in Junk or something. Decks that grind to where each player has basically nothing and need a way to win quick; while this also offers lots of potential CA.

I think issues with Mind-Twist style cards in the past is that they've got potential to be dead, but this plays to the board, the hand, and eventually the life total; and the life-total part is 3-damage for 1 mana. That's really quite efficient. It also doesn't target.

Note: It does seem absolutely busted in multiplayer.


EDIT: LOL, I bet it'd be good in Nic Fit... that's some kinda win con there! haha

[MaximumC]

Hailfire could see minor play.

Why would you want to play with a punisher card like that instead of something like Banefire if your plan is to generate absurd amounts of mana and cast a big X spell?

[Claymore]

A 3x multiplier on your traditional X burn spell for one. A deck like Pox could get caught up with it (9 damage for 3BB, instead of 4 damage for 4R) and threaten a quick finish with Tombstalker, or contribute to wiping out the field.

I don't think it's good enough but still neat.

[Kanti]

Which is it? You could easily make the case for this card to be mono-white because of Spirit of the Lab and Reparations/Karmic Justice (trigger on target/destroy)

I disagree that these effects have to be in U all the time. Green in particular has messed around in this area quite a bit. Stopping abilities as a permanent (Needle, new probe-needle, Revoker) is a colorless effect.

I do think that one of the reasons they are is specifically so they can have an impact in eternal formats because they are so blue already. In a similar way they have powered up D&T a lot with new hatebears and Recruiter of the Guard (despite the fact that creature tutoring has tilted heavily toward G).

What I am looking for is a reason to do something else besides DRS, Brainstorm, Force, Ponder, 1-mana removal of choice, Underground Sea.

You are just hating on blue because it's a good color. What do Force, Ponder, and USea have to do with Leovold and the color-pie?

It's the B not letting opponents draw more than one card, as black is the original Chains of Mephistopheles effect. All I said was that the U in Leovold's mana cost is what gives it the weird hexproof that it has. Kira has this effect, there is a new blue Merfolk spoiled that has this effect, Scion of Oona has this effect. It is a blue effect.

Levolold= G 3/3, U ghetto hexproof, B Chains all wrapped up into one card. Not that tough to decipher.

[Fox]

You are overestimating how often these mid- to late-game triggers come down in accelerated fashion, and underestimating how swingy it can be to stop them without going down a card yourself (which is a relevant point).

Comparing this card to Vendilion Clique is incorrect. Clique may be a better card, but they don't really do the same thing. For example, Vendilion Clique doesn't do much after they DRS -> Agent -> Visions anyway. The interesting thing about this card is that in the mid-game, you can stop them from pulling ahead with a big play like AV or Terminus, but if you draw this late you just make a 3/1 and go to town.

You're sluffing away a 3/1 flash flying creature to Stifle something and replacing it with what is quite likely to be a land (this guy probably isn't being run below 20 lands without DRS). I would really advise staying away from Terminus as a model organism for why Nimble Obstructionist isn't* like Clique as either of these cards in response to miracle trigger has the same outcome in regards to that miracle card not being alt-cast; what's different is that one play gives you a 3/1, the other one gives you a blind draw.

As far as these cards not doing the same thing let's focus exclusively on Clique only targeting self. Nimble cycles itself and potentially Stifles a target, Clique deploys itself to the battlefield at any time (for that same 3 mana) and cycles your worst nonland card. I do think that you have to make that comparison, b/c Clique's trigger isn't part of a cycling ability. Stifling something mid-late game is definitely a thing you can do, but having the 3/1 body that always gets it's value/utility is better in a general sense.

You can deliberately create a deck where Nimble Obstructionist is a better mechanical fit than Clique, but if your deck is playing normal legacy you're going to be concocting magical christmasland scenarios like:
-Opponent who has a Fetch and a DRS goes to eat my Loam
-In response Wasteland your Fetch
-They crack Fetch
-cycle Nimble to Stifle the Fetch and replace draw with dredging Loam...and now this Loam plan has also fed into feeding your delve creature plan

Sticking with the Loam/Nimble Obstructionist example, but in a non-normal legacy deck, it could be combined with cards like Headless Skaab/Stitchwing Skaab. It's not good, but a strategy like this could actively want a slow Stifle effect attached to augmenting both sides of the Loam/Skaab engine.

It's a hard sell though saying Nimble Obstructionist is something people actually want over a 3/1 body or over a value trigger when you get the 3/1 body. Were people really looking for that slow Stifle, shouldn't we have been seeing more Disallow in legacy?

On another topic, Torment of Hailfire seems like a really, really bad remake of Forbidden Ritual

[tescrin]

I think in 80% of cases Obstructionist will be a worse Aven Mindcensor. Aven can't hit Wasteland, and isn't *guaranteed*, but it's pretty good, and can potentially "get" your opponent when played early enough

[rufus]

A 3x multiplier on your traditional X burn spell for one. ...

At the end of the day, it suffers from choice card syndrome.

[bruizar]

5 new cards:

http://media.wizards.com/2017/hou/en_qPxIgzMnkU.png


Farm to Market is really good. Removal that lets you dig / use a discard outlet...

Cast Farm
Cast Market, draw 2 cards, discard a Farm // Market
Cast Market, draw 2 cards, discard a Farm // Market.. etc

[Finn]

I, for one am not a fan of holding up three mana in hopes that my opponent attacks or blocks. And only after that event can I use the second ability. None of these aftermath cards are looking strong yet.

[Kanti]

It reads, " :b: : Return target Tarmogoyf or Deathrite Shaman from your graveyard to the battlefield." I'd say that's a little good.

Or for 1RB it lets you return a Pyromancer back to play, and make a hasty 3/1 token. The interaction with Snapcaster Mage is pretty sweet too, as reanimating a creature that lets you flashback a spell is just CA+++. Having a 1R pump spell sitting around in your GY waiting for you to slam down a Gurmang Angler or whatever is great as well. Almost like a pseudo-Lava Spike but better in some cases. Yes, depending on sorcery speed flashback in a field of DRS sucks, but between holding onto priority and blowing DRS up because you are on Grixis anyways, I think that's fine.

tl;dr- a potentially great card for Grixis.

[rufus]

I, for one am not a fan of holding up three mana in hopes that my opponent attacks or blocks. And only after that event can I use the second ability. None of these aftermath cards are looking strong yet.

Their reluctance to put instant effects into the graveyard has certainly hurt the versatility on some of these cards.

[bruizar]

I, for one am not a fan of holding up three mana in hopes that my opponent attacks or blocks. And only after that event can I use the second ability. None of these aftermath cards are looking strong yet.

Good point, I think you are correct.. I still love the card in limited / draft though.

[Claymore]

Something I didn't realize is that the Hellfire or whatever card makes you repeat the process X times, not perform the action X times.

So BB gets you 3 life/1 sac/discard,
1BB gets you 6 life/2 sacs/discard,
2BB gets 9 life/2 sacs,
etc.

[Finn]

I'm sure you are reading it wrong, Claymore.

[Claymore]

Seems Wizards goes with this interpretation:


Melissa DeTora @MelissaDeTora

Torment of Hailfire: Do the thing X times. Not X+1. #mtghou #wotcstaff


Pretty sure the literal grammar would be to perform the action, then do it again X times. Similar to Forbidden Ritual and Kindle the Carnage, which force you to perform the action at least once.

[rufus]

...
Pretty sure the literal grammar would be ....

Repetition is ambiguous.

[Fox]

Or for 1RB it lets you return a Pyromancer back to play, and make a hasty 3/1 token.

If you bring back Pyromancer with Claim//Fame there will be no elemental token to target with Fame side. Pyro targeted generates the 1/1 and then Pyro becomes a 4/1 haste.

[Zombie]

Something I didn't realize is that the Hellfire or whatever card makes you repeat the process X times, not perform the action X times.

So BB gets you 3 life/1 sac/discard,
1BB gets you 6 life/2 sacs/discard,
2BB gets 9 life/2 sacs,
etc.

BB gets you a fat load of nothing. It would work the way you propose if it was worded like this:

"Each opponent loses 3 life unless that player sacrifices a nonland permanent or discards a card.
Repeat the process X times."

This way, you do a thing, then start repeating it.

However, the syntax isn't like that:

"Repeat the following process X times.
Each opponent loses 3 life unless that player sacrifices a nonland permanent or discards a card. "

The actual wording first specifies the number of times you do the process, and only then specifies what the process is in the first place. Nothing has been done yet before the until-X loop starts.

[TsumiBand]

They shouldn't have worded it that way if they didn't want tk have it functionally be X + 1. If you pay 1 you repeat the process 1 time, so doing it once doesn't make sense because you haven't repeated anything.

This might be one of those times when we just have to wait for the prerelease FAQ to come out?

[Claymore]

Deltora already mentioned on Twitter to clarify the intent of the wording. It's a poorly worded card that will have Gatherer to clear it up.

[Finn]

I used Torment of Hailfire tonight, and I have to say that it may be worth looking at for more than just EDH. The fact that opponents can not sacrifice lands makes all the difference. Not sure what we have here, but in EDH at least (what I tried it in) it was a bomb every single time I cast it. Too bad Elves can't tutor for it or it would be a fabulous card there.

[mistercakes]

it pairs really well with liliana of the veil. i'm sure it could see play in a pox style deck, or maybe something with ramp? grim monolith, lake of the dead, or even something like a nykthos or coffers deck.

[kombatkiwi]

I used Torment of Hailfire tonight, and I have to say that it may be worth looking at for more than just EDH. The fact that opponents can not sacrifice lands makes all the difference. Not sure what we have here, but in EDH at least (what I tried it in) it was a bomb every single time I cast it. Too bad Elves can't tutor for it or it would be a fabulous card there.

In EDH where everybody has 40 life it seems even worse. It's just a Browbeat with a slightly different card advantage mode:
(Edit: the following points pertain to legacy or any other normal constructed format in case that wasn't clear originally)
- If you put it in an aggressive build as a burn spell you won't have mana to cast it for large X in the first place and your opponent will gladly trade cards with you to save themselves from damage.
- If you put it in an attrition/control deck as a card advantage engine your opponent won't be under much pressure and will choose to take the damage to have you minus-1 yourself
- If you put it in an attrition/control deck as a finisher (ie. you try to cast it for a large X in the lategame when your opponent has no/few cards) then is it really better than Grave Titan or Ob Nixilis or something that deals potentially unlimited damage and also stabilizes the board.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

In EDH where everybody has 40 life it seems even worse. It's just a Browbeat with a slightly different card advantage mode:
- If you put it in an aggressive build as a burn spell you won't have mana to cast it for large X in the first place and your opponent will gladly trade cards with you to save themselves from damage.
- If you put it in an attrition/control deck as a card advantage engine your opponent won't be under much pressure and will choose to take the damage to have you minus-1 yourself
- If you put it in an attrition/control deck as a finisher (ie. you try to cast it for a large X in the lategame when your opponent has no/few cards) then is it really better than Grave Titan or Ob Nixilis or something that deals potentially unlimited damage and also stabilizes the board.


In EDH it competes with Exsanguinate. If you are heavy black and run cabal coffers/nykthos you should run both. If you dont want both you need to decide if you want lifegain or X*3.

You are right everybody has 40 life, imho this means that its justified to run over the top X spells and not cards like lightning bolt...

[kombatkiwi]

In EDH it competes with Exsanguinate. If you are heavy black and run cabal coffers/nykthos you should run both. If you dont want both you need to decide if you want lifegain or X*3.

You are right everybody has 40 life, imho this means that its justified to run over the top X spells and not cards like lightning bolt...

Sure, if you are in magical christmas land scenarios where you are casting this for like X=10+ I guess it's fine but that obviously isn't a consideration for legacy and even in EDH depending on the level of playgroup you have it isn't very good either. At least lightning bolt stops you from dying to Edric/Arcum/Yisan etc...

[Darkenslight]

Actual Suicide Black card, if the translation is true:

https://i.redd.it/9st6zhd60x5z.jpg

Ammit Eternal :2: :b:

Creature — Zombie Crocodile Demon (Rare)
afflict 3
Whenever an opponent cast a spell ,put a -1/-1 counter on ~.
Whenever ~ deal combat damage to a player ,remove all -1/-1 counters from it.
5/5

Just look at that creature type line. Isn't that one of the best type lines you've ever seen? :D

[Rascalyote]

Totally want to build a Grixis deck that Claim to Fame's a Jace, VP.

[morgan_coke]

New split card, only the first half is really important:

Refuse
3R
Instant

Deal damage to target spell's controller equal to that spell's CMC.

Like, flat out, that's an amazing take on a red "counterspell". Why couldn't that have been printed at 2 mana though? One of the biggest issues with std and modern is that there is so very little stack interaction, and the lack of answers overall incentivizes just playing high cc "win the game" cards. More stack interaction like this, in more colors than just blue, would really, really help that.

[Claymore]

Parallectric Feedback

Otherwise, entirely agree, we need more stack effects across all colors. Magic is a game that seems to be unique in how it heavily relies on 'the stack', and somehow only one color really interacts there.

[rufus]

...Like, flat out, that's an amazing take on a red "counterspell". Why couldn't that have been printed at 2 mana though? One of the biggest issues with std and modern is that there is so very little stack interaction, and the lack of answers overall incentivizes just playing high cc "win the game" cards. More stack interaction like this, in more colors than just blue, would really, really help that.

Sure, but the interaction actually has to do something. You're not going to get any value from that 4cc burn spell except, maybe, against tron.

The back half of that card Cooperate (i.e. Geistblast 2.0) is much more likely to find a home. Alas, putting copying spells back into blue is more of the 'blue gets all the stack' design problem.

[morgan_coke]

Sure, but the interaction actually has to do something. You're not going to get any value from that 4cc burn spell except, maybe, against tron.

The back half of that card Cooperate (i.e. Geistblast 2.0) is much more likely to find a home. Alas, putting copying spells back into blue is more of the 'blue gets all the stack' design problem.

Yeah. Always thought Delay and Memory Lapse should've been White. (Making Memory Lapse cost 3 isn't giving white a counter, it's making a useless card). Mana Tithe is a step in the right direction.

I mean, you can even make a case for Negate being Green. Really wish they'd do more stuff like Faithless Looting, giving other colors things like filter and draw.

[rufus]

Yeah. Always thought Delay and Memory Lapse should've been White. (Making Memory Lapse cost 3 isn't giving white a counter, it's making a useless card). Mana Tithe is a step in the right direction. ...

I wouldn't mind seeing Misdirection color-shifted to red, and Remand color-shifted to white... if we want to digress further into shitty card creation, that belongs into a different thread.

[MaximumC]

Yeah. Always thought Delay and Memory Lapse should've been White. (Making Memory Lapse cost 3 isn't giving white a counter, it's making a useless card). Mana Tithe is a step in the right direction.



Why couldn't that have been printed at 2 mana though? One of the biggest issues with std and modern is that there is so very little stack interaction, and the lack of answers overall incentivizes just playing high cc "win the game" cards. More stack interaction like this, in more colors than just blue, would really, really help that.

I agree with this, and while it's fair that Green gets less stack manipulation because it's the most anti-thinking color, there's really no reason to keep stack interation solely in blue's wheelhouse. You can apply what we know about colors generally to spread it out:

Blue: Hard counters, redirection effects, copy effects, control effects, card draw.
Red: Redirection effects, copy effects, burn effects.
Black: Pay life / sacrifice things to get hard counter or control effects.
White: Taxing effects, banning cards by name or type.
Green: Very limited countermagic; Negate is probably too strong, but Avoid Fate seems about right.

They actually print cards like this already for each color, but they probably should do more of it.

[BenBleiweiss]

http://media.wizards.com/2017/hou/en_T9CraoZSpf.png
Careful Study w/ flashback?
http://media.wizards.com/2017/hou/en_sesUcKUkTI.png
At some point Replenish has to be worth playing, right?

[morgan_coke]

Ben,

If you're going for Replenish, you can do a lot better than that card. Like say, Decree of Silence and the white no-counters on things enchantment.

The blue card looks cool, but it's pretty overcosted for anything out of standard or modern.

[BenBleiweiss]

Ben,

If you're going for Replenish, you can do a lot better than that card. Like say, Decree of Silence and the white no-counters on things enchantment.

The blue card looks cool, but it's pretty overcosted for anything out of standard or modern.

At some point thought, aren't the more one-sided effects like this (that can be onesies in the deck) more able to push the deck up a tier? This combines Humility (one-sided) plus whatever Null-effects you want into one card, which saves a slot.

[Cire]

Curse of Misfortunes into overwhelming splendor?

2 turns and 5 mana for a one-sided humility?

[Silent Requiem]

http://media.wizards.com/2017/hou/en_T9CraoZSpf.png
Careful Study w/ flashback?


Strictly, you draw four cards rather than two when you use the Eternalize ability. Hence the cost. If it were a little lower, I could see it being quite good in Dredge.

[morgan_coke]

The problems with Replenish and Enchantress aren't that they lack big ridiculous finishers. And that's not even that good of one. It shrinks 'Goyfs and turns off fetchlands. By the time you get it out, neither of those are necessarily game winning plays. The fact that it doesn't turn off 'walkers is also pretty huge.

[Megadeus]

Not turning off walkers is fucking shit. Fuck their weird Walker fetish.

[rufus]

Strictly, you draw four cards rather than two when you use the Eternalize ability. Hence the cost. If it were a little lower, I could see it being quite good in Dredge.

The ability checks the power on resolution, so you can turn Invigorate into card draw, right?

[Lemnear]

The ability checks the power on resolution, so you can turn Invigorate into card draw, right?

Yeah, more value if your opponent bolts him with invigorate on the stack then

[Cire]

The ability checks the power on resolution, so you can turn Invigorate into card draw, right?

If this is true, then I sort of want to be able to make a weird deck where you cast champion of wits plus blazing shoal a progentius to draw 12 discard 2. Hell, throw in a beserk in their to draw 24 - 2. Basically like any other blazing shoal/infect deck, but with a back up of reloading through champion of wits.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

The ability checks the power on resolution, so you can turn Invigorate into card draw, right?

Yes or he gets bolted and you draw nothing. I guess you dont have to discard then?
Thing etbs, you say sure lets trigger it, in respons bolt, draw 0. Then "if you do" well i didnt!? Can I discard if I want to?

[Fox]

Totally want to build a Grixis deck that Claim to Fame's a Jace, VP.

Or you know just Shallow Grave/Goryo's Vengeance the JVP, activate, and reenter the battlefield from exile as a new object negating the EoT trigger.

Moving on to this guy:
http://media.wizards.com/2017/hou/en_T9CraoZSpf.png
Not a Merfolk, so unable to pick up +1/+1 from lords. Next best thing then would be having Elesh Norn in play, which begs the question: why? :laugh:

[rufus]

Yes or he gets bolted and you draw nothing. I guess you dont have to discard then? ...

Nah, it goes into the 'last state memory' if it gets removed leaving you with an optional draw 2 discard 2. So you'd get 2-for-1'd unless you can back it up with vines of vastwood or whatever.



...If this is true, then I sort of want to be able to make a weird deck where you cast champion of wits plus blazing shoal a progentius to draw 12 discard 2. ...


I think it makes more sense to try it with Mutagenic Growth and Invigorate instead of looking for that kind of 3-card pile. (In other words, I think the first place to consider it is infect.)

[Cire]

http://i.imgur.com/u8V7LO7.png

Notable, that it does something the turn you cast it, since its not an upkeep or draw trigger but a combat trigger. Not good enough compared to . . . . um . . . reanimate, but i found that interesting.

[Barook]

Yes or he gets bolted and you draw nothing. I guess you dont have to discard then?
Thing etbs, you say sure lets trigger it, in respons bolt, draw 0. Then "if you do" well i didnt!? Can I discard if I want to?
The trigger goes on the stack, then you decide upon resolution whether you like to draw or not. If it's already dead, it makes sense to not draw, unless you want to dump cards in the GY at all cost.

@Gift: Pretty costly. Not sure how to abuse it best, given its high cost. Reanimating fatties doesn't do much since they're 4/4 necrons, the Eldrazi titans with Annihilator shuffle back into the library and if you're reanimating stuff like Griselbrand, you're completely missing the point with a 7-fucking mana card.

[Claymore]

You can cheat it into play with Gate to the Afterlife, just need 6 dudes in the graveyard.

Interesting thing about the Gift is that the zombies stick around. Seems like just a pure grindy value card to me unless you flood the deck with a bunch of ETB or Attach Trigger value cards, since you need 6 creatures to fetch the Gift to begin with.

[morgan_coke]

I was surprised looking through the spoiler how few good cards there are in this set. Then I realized all the "good" stuff I'd seen lately was actually in Ixalan. Womp womp womp.

[Barook]

I was surprised looking through the spoiler how few good cards there are in this set. Then I realized all the "good" stuff I'd seen lately was actually in Ixalan. Womp womp womp.
Ixalan has like what, the Spyglass (aka Needle 2.0) and the Infinite Pirate? Everything else felt like overcosted garbage, especially the whole dinosaur thing.

[rufus]

You can cheat it into play with Gate to the Afterlife, just need 6 dudes in the graveyard.

Interesting thing about the Gift is that the zombies stick around. Seems like just a pure grindy value card to me unless you flood the deck with a bunch of ETB or Attach Trigger value cards, since you need 6 creatures to fetch the Gift to begin with.

5 mana is still a lot.

How do additional combat phases interact with 'beginning of combat' triggers? (i.e. can you chain Combat Celebrants into play? Edit: Looks like it works.)

[Megadeus]

This set is perfect for me. A bunch of fringe good cards that I'll play but probably nothing amazing

[morgan_coke]

Ixalan has like what, the Spyglass (aka Needle 2.0) and the Infinite Pirate? Everything else felt like overcosted garbage, especially the whole dinosaur thing.

yeah, true. But that's still better than what we've seen out of HOU.

[Barook]

yeah, true. But that's still better than what we've seen out of HOU.
I do like the CoW Naga. It also just hit me that Azusa, Lost but Seeking also has a manacost fitting for Staxx (:2::g:) - and since both are GSZ-able, I think it's worth a look. Tripple Wasteland/GQ or City of Traitor stacking sound like fun plays.

[apple713]

http://media.wizards.com/2017/hou/en_sesUcKUkTI.png
At some point Replenish has to be worth playing, right?

In legacy, that point is typically winning the game, or near certainty of winning. Such as with Sneak attack / Show and tell. This falls short but ALOT since it cant win the game itself and doesn't really do much to help u get there.


If this is true, then I sort of want to be able to make a weird deck where you cast champion of wits plus blazing shoal a progentius to draw 12 discard 2. Hell, throw in a beserk in their to draw 24 - 2. Basically like any other blazing shoal/infect deck, but with a back up of reloading through champion of wits.


Yes the naga would fit very nicely into my version of pitch world. Blazing shaols / Shining Shoals, soul Spikes, and other free to cast goodness.

[Barook]

The more I think about it, the more I like the interaction between Ramunap Excavator and Azusa. Now throw in 4x Tireless Tracker and the whole thing gets alot sillier. E.g. with 2x City of Traitors, you can generate 6 mana and 3 clue tokens, aka a free Ancestral Recall every turn while pumping up Tracker. Between Dryad Arbor, fetchlands and various GSZ targets, Smuggler's Copter might be interesting, too. It filters excess lockpieces/mana accelerants or dumps lands into the GY to be played by Excavator afterwards.

It would probably be alot like Sylvan Plug. The core of the deck would probably look like this

- GSZ
- Excavator
- Azusa
- Tireless Tracker
- various GSZ utility targets (Dryad Arbor, DRS, Scavenging Ooze, Reclamation Sage, etc.)
- Thought-Knot Seer (maybe; not GSZ-able, but disruption on a solid body)
- Smuggler's Copter (maybe)

- CotV
- Trinisphere

- ESG
- Moxen, either Diamond and/or Chrome

- other stuff like maybe Jitte, Sylvan Library, etc.
- and of course the lands

The Gitrog Monster would probably fit the land recursion shell as the big finisher better than Titania, who is easier to use hose.

[morgan_coke]

Do you want Explore or Exploration or Summer Bloom? Or is just Azusa enough? I lean towards GSZ/Azusa being good, but it's an interesting thought. And do you want Hurricane as a way to end board states and cover tokens/cliques/delver? Do you want Gaea's Cradle or any land tutors in that? Sylvan Scrying/Map?

[Megadeus]

The more I think about it, the more I like the interaction between Ramunap Excavator and Azusa. Now throw in 4x Tireless Tracker and the whole thing gets alot sillier. E.g. with 2x City of Traitors, you can generate 6 mana and 3 clue tokens, aka a free Ancestral Recall every turn while pumping up Tracker. Between Dryad Arbor, fetchlands and various GSZ targets, Smuggler's Copter might be interesting, too. It filters excess lockpieces/mana accelerants or dumps lands into the GY to be played by Excavator afterwards.

It would probably be alot like Sylvan Plug. The core of the deck would probably look like this

- GSZ
- Excavator
- Azusa
- Tireless Tracker
- various GSZ utility targets (Dryad Arbor, DRS, Scavenging Ooze, Reclamation Sage, etc.)
- Thought-Knot Seer (maybe; not GSZ-able, but disruption on a solid body)
- Smuggler's Copter (maybe)

- CotV
- Trinisphere

- ESG
- Moxen, either Diamond and/or Chrome

- other stuff like maybe Jitte, Sylvan Library, etc.
- and of course the lands

The Gitrog Monster would probably fit the land recursion shell as the big finisher better than Titania, who is easier to use hose.
Shhhhh... this is what I'm brewing right now. I'm thinking GW because I want to play Knights and Geddons. Maybe a couple explorations. Geddon becomes real good when you play diamond and you have green Sun access to your crucible of worlds

[apple713]

Shhhhh... this is what I'm brewing right now. I'm thinking GW because I want to play Knights and Geddons. Maybe a couple explorations. Geddon becomes real good when you play diamond and you have green Sun access to your crucible of worlds

The green stompy shell exists, as sylvan plug. You are just playing like 10 diff creatures. Id use that thread as a reference.

Also, natural order probably has a home in there.

[Scott]

Shhhhh... this is what I'm brewing right now. I'm thinking GW because I want to play Knights and Geddons. Maybe a couple explorations. Geddon becomes real good when you play diamond and you have green Sun access to your crucible of worlds

Have any sort of list yet, or are you just bandying ideas in your head? I'm in the mood to goldfish something fun like that, even if it's super rough.

[Pittplayer]

Why are we not getting a Jackal Lord?

[Fox]

You can cheat it into play with Gate to the Afterlife, just need 6 dudes in the graveyard.

Interesting thing about the Gift is that the zombies stick around. Seems like just a pure grindy value card to me unless you flood the deck with a bunch of ETB or Attach Trigger value cards, since you need 6 creatures to fetch the Gift to begin with.

In legacy I think that any time we're discussing uncastable noncreature artifacts, we need to ask whether or not it was more realistic to cast and activate Arcum Dagsson. The problem is efficiency; the easiest and most reliable way to get Arcum into play would be Entomb->Reanimate, and thus you should be putting Grisel into play. Besides that the next best thing for Arcum would be Mishra's Factory as an enabler and probably Standstill...add in Strix to make sure you don't die to Goyf....now the deck has very little space to build around God-Pharaoh's Gift. Sure you can make some 4/4 Strix, but it has turned into a worse Tezz deck (Thopter/Sword) or a less efficient Tombstalker....and if you really wanted to bring 4/4 flying, deathtouchers to legacy there is already Soulflayer.

[rufus]

Hollow one looks like a card with potential - a vanilla 4/4 you can cast for :1: in a lot of situations.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Hollow one looks like a card with potential - a vanilla 4/4 you can cast for :1: in a lot of situations.

Hm if there would be a way that every card you cycle you could also discard and reduce... ok ok i know.

But how would you abuse it for real? Its obvious to weak to build arround, and we dont discard that much naturaly?

[Echelon]

Hm if there would be a way that every card you cycle you could also discard and reduce... ok ok i know.

But how would you abuse it for real? Its obvious to weak to build arround, and we dont discard that much naturaly?

Plan B for Reanimator..? Careful Study/Faithless Looting -> cast that thing as a 1 mana 4/4.

Or Manaless Dredge. Activate Phantasmagorian, drop that thing. Or regular Dredge, w/ Cephalid Coliseum/Breakthrough.

[Barook]

Do you want Explore or Exploration or Summer Bloom? Or is just Azusa enough? I lean towards GSZ/Azusa being good, but it's an interesting thought. And do you want Hurricane as a way to end board states and cover tokens/cliques/delver? Do you want Gaea's Cradle or any land tutors in that? Sylvan Scrying/Map?
Exploration would clash with the Chalice plan. Otherwise, one could run Crop Rotation into DD/Stage combo with Mirage Mirror as back-up.

The Natural Order suggestion seems interesting, but what could you realistically fetch in a Green Stax shell to make it worth the risk? Progenitus? I dislike the :g::g: mana cost since Stompy decks are already inconsistent enough.

Sylvan Plug did lean towards KotR at the end, so that's something to keep in mind. But I don't think too much reliance on the GY with KotR AND Naga is good, either. That's why I want Tracker as my primary beater since he doesn't give a shit about DRS, RiP, etc.

I also forgot to mention Walking Ballista - the deck does need creature removal in some kind of form. The more, the merrier.

[Zombie]

Exploration would clash with the Chalice plan. Otherwise, one could run Crop Rotation into DD/Stage combo with Mirage Mirror as back-up.

The Natural Order suggestion seems interesting, but what could you realistically fetch in a Green Stax shell to make it worth the risk? Progenitus? I dislike the :g::g: mana cost since Stompy decks are already inconsistent enough.

Sylvan Plug did lean towards KotR at the end, so that's something to keep in mind. But I don't think too much reliance on the GY with KotR AND Naga is good, either. That's why I want Tracker as my primary beater since he doesn't give a shit about DRS, RiP, etc.

I also forgot to mention Walking Ballista - the deck does need creature removal in some kind of form. The more, the merrier.

Terastodon?

[MD.Ghost]

I would run Progenitus + Elderscale Wurm main and Ruric Thar side since you can enable a fast NO in a Stompy Shell with Tombs, Arbor etc. but as Barook mentioned S.Plug Lists lean to powerfull Zenithtargets.

[Darkenslight]

Set of Deserts (http://imgur.com/a/DMotT), courtesy of the LR podcast.

They're all...really weak, all things considered. Colorless Deserts that cost you life for a single color of mana, with mostly sorcery-speed effects, meaning that you have to tap low to use them.

[Dice_Box]

Set of Deserts (http://imgur.com/a/DMotT), courtesy of the LR podcast.

They're all...really weak, all things considered. Colorless Deserts that cost you life for a single color of mana, with mostly sorcery-speed effects, meaning that you have to tap low to use them.

They are draft cards. That green one will find itself in more than one of my draft decks.

[Crimhead]

They are draft cards. That green one will find itself in more than one of my draft decks.
That's no excuse. Original Desert managed to be a good a draft card in Time Spiral without sucking completely. WotC straight up hate making good utility lands these days.

[Dice_Box]

That's no excuse. Original Desert managed to be a good a draft card in Time Spiral without sucking completely. WotC straight up hate making good utility lands these days.

I disagree. Not every card is going to be an a star. Some cards are made for limited/draft. Pointing at those cards and complaining about power as a non rotating format player is foolish.

Also with Crucible legal in Standard now these (unlikely) might see some play in Standard. But that's all a sideshow, these cards look like they will play their intended role in their intended format. Since that's what Wizards tries to set up each set to do, success are best measured by the target that was aimed at.

[morgan_coke]

That's no excuse. Original Desert managed to be a good a draft card in Time Spiral without sucking completely. WotC straight up hate making good utility lands these days.

My favorite is the Deserts that CiPT, but cost a colored AND a colorless to cycle. This whole set is "hmm, I can see how we could make this a good card, but let's go in a different direction instead". Like, hey, players have been asking for Slide back for a very long time, I know, let's make a cycling set, but not include it because we'll also make overcosted tokens part of our plan too.

[Cire]

Regarding Hollow One - while I do want to abuse it my Fluctuator Deck - I think it really combines well with faithless looting and those type of cards.

That said . . . why is it rare?! Myr Enforcer was a common - and they're both basically 4/4 for 0 that you have to jump through hoops for.

[BenBleiweiss]

Regarding Hollow One - while I do want to abuse it my Fluctuator Deck - I think it really combines well with faithless looting and those type of cards.

That said . . . why is it rare?! Myr Enforcer was a common - and they're both basically 4/4 for 0 that you have to jump through hoops for.

Affinity was the theme of the set, so they had cards that keyed off Affinity across all rarities. Myr Enforcer is just a piece of that theme at Common Rarity. There is no such theme for Hollow Warrior, so they don't want it to show up in draft every time, when you might not have the cards to support it.

With that said - it probably could have been an Uncommon.

[BenBleiweiss]

Set of Deserts (http://imgur.com/a/DMotT), courtesy of the LR podcast.

They're all...really weak, all things considered. Colorless Deserts that cost you life for a single color of mana, with mostly sorcery-speed effects, meaning that you have to tap low to use them.

One note is that these are going to be good in Standard, because Eldrazi Decks have been hurting since painlands rotated. This is a perfect slot-in for Standard Eldrazi decks, so they can get access to both colored and colorless mana without totally messing up their mana base.

[Zombie]

It's a pity they aren't common. They could've done something interesting there. Tilling Treefolk can dream :/

[MaximumC]

Set of Deserts (http://imgur.com/a/DMotT), courtesy of the LR podcast.

They're all...really weak, all things considered. Colorless Deserts that cost you life for a single color of mana, with mostly sorcery-speed effects, meaning that you have to tap low to use them.

I wouldn't be so quick to count them out. Lands that come with abilities attached are basically free ways to make your deck more effect-dense. These are the first we've had in a long time that do not hurt your tempo -- they don't come into play untapped -- and I will gladly be gobbling these up and sticking them in decks.

Consider the black one, for example. In the early game, it's another land drop that keeps you on curve. It might cost you 1 or 2 life if you really need to get black mana right now, but as the game progresses you stop having to pay it (like painlands). The payoff is that, in the late game, you just have a -2/-2 effect on tap.

[rufus]

I wouldn't be so quick to count them out. Lands that come with abilities attached are basically free ways to make your deck more effect-dense. These are the first we've had in a long time that do not hurt your tempo -- they don't come into play untapped -- and I will gladly be gobbling these up and sticking them in decks. ...

Sure, these are solid, but aren't the thresh lands mostly better and generally not played in legacy?

[morgan_coke]

Sure, these are solid, but aren't the thresh lands mostly better and generally not played in legacy?

Yeah, the problem with these lands is that they're.. well.. bad. The effects are trash. Especially for the costs. Compare the ISD +1/+1 counter land to the desert "sac a land for a temporary +1/+1" lands. Like.. lol, wut?

[Claymore]

Sure, these are solid, but aren't the thresh lands mostly better and generally not played in legacy?

Cabal Pit is played 4c Loam fairly regularly and most BGx decks with Loam. Barbarian Ring is becoming a staple in RG Lands. Cephalid Colesium I think is played in Dredge.

Not sure what the other two are (lifegain is white), but don't think they're played.

[Purple Blood]

Shhhhh... this is what I'm brewing right now. I'm thinking GW because I want to play Knights and Geddons. Maybe a couple explorations. Geddon becomes real good when you play diamond and you have green Sun access to your crucible of worlds

I have a similar casual list I've been messing around with. Right now its GW Staxx with Exploration, Armageddon, Staxx, Life From the Loam, Tracker, BoP, Renegade Rallier, Crop Rotation, Mishra's Factory, and some other utility lands. Don't have Mox Diamond or it would be in the list and of course Crucible would be replacing LftL but I ain't dropping any dough on this deck haha. Gonna test with the excavator once it's out though.

Tracker tokens are super awesome with Smokestack and Exploration. You can easily tick Staxx up to three and sustain the board without a problem at all.

It's ton of fun to play albeit not the most competitive deck by any stretch.

[MaximumC]

Sure, these are solid, but aren't the thresh lands mostly better and generally not played in legacy?

Well, no,* but Cabal Pit and Barbarian Ring see play in Vintage occasionally, and none of them are legal in Modern.

I don't propose that these man-lands are going to slot into an existing Legacy deck, but I could see them in Modern. I just think they are a solid option. And, who knows? With Eldrazi, these are legit dual lands with upside.

* = Nevermind, see above :D

[Dice_Box]

Ring is played in Lands. Its an answer to Prelate that can not be easily stopped.

[Megadeus]

Yeah the biggest upside these are to me are "Dual lands" for Eldrazi if they only are mono color with ability

[BenBleiweiss]

https://i.redd.it/i485mb86s76z.jpg

A (mostly) improved Safe Haven?

[dunk]

Another EDH playable card I guess? And also cool for limited, I guess. Nothing to see here for Legacy though. Probably not even Standard.

[Darkenslight]

Another EDH playable card I guess? And also cool for limited, I guess. Nothing to see here for Legacy though. Probably not even Standard.

I could see it in a weird Standard/Modern list that works on 187 abilities. It's a colorless land that makes cards leave and re-enter.

[Finn]

That's a second desert plus the original. I call Camel reprint. Bands is coming back - don't listen to the rabble about the ability being terrible. Yeah, baby! Get your original Arabian Nights Camel while supplies last.

You heard it here first.

[Fox]

The only Desert-cycling card costs 4 mana (Shefet Monitor), and these new Deserts all cost 4 to activate (technically 5 mana since you have to tap to activate) - there's definitely a tutor and cost problem here. I guess it's worth noting that the black and red ones are graveyard-independent versions of Cabal Pit and Barbarian Ring though. That's mostly relevant to AggroLoam and R/G Lands b/c the x=2 Prelate comes with a deck also using RiP.

Hostile Desert seems at least sideboard playable against non-DRS control and Scavenger Grounds is similar enough to see play over Bojuka Bog alongside Crop Rotation. The best stand-alone ones are still Grasping Dunes and actual Desert (and with the sheer amount of SCMs currently, this one is leagues better than the rest). The main structural flaw with these new Deserts is that they put a trigger on the stack while they sit in the yard waiting for DRS to eat them, so having a Crucible simply doesn't matter. Past that it's a problem with being un-fetchable, and with ETB-untapped color producing Deserts, we *should* never see a Fetch that reads something like "fetch an Island or a Desert."

Secondary Desert synergies (i.e. if you control a Desert etc...) are overcosted and underpowered, and you're looking at a set where quite honestly you're competing with Faithless Looting into 1 mana 4/4 (Hollow One).

[Dice_Box]

Red one doesn't hit creatures.

[Scott]

Zero relevance to Legacy, but it's a little Hellion nostalgia trip for a creature I liked when I was a kid, Crater Hellion.

Chaos Maw :5::r::r:
Creature - Hellion (R)
When Chaos Maw enters the battlefield, it deals 3 damage to each other creature.
6/6
The food chain doesn't end with sandwurms.

[Fox]

Red one doesn't hit creatures.
Wow, it actually doesn't - that's impressively terrible. It's like casting Chandra ToD, except you need one more land and it's a 1x thing hahahahaha.

[Cire]

we *should* never see a Fetch that reads something like "fetch an Island or a Desert."

Hell, with the untaped colored deserts a fetch that reads only "fetch a desert" would be extremely powerful.

[Richard Arschmann]

Endless Sands seems interesting in Eldrazi as an anti-boardwipe card.

[MaximumC]

Endless Sands seems interesting in Eldrazi as an anti-boardwipe card.

Wasteland is starting to breathe heavily.

[rufus]

Endless Sands seems interesting in Eldrazi as an anti-boardwipe card.

Better or worse than Safe Haven?

[Barook]

I sure love to spend mana to exile my own creature, only to never get them back. :rolleyes:

Effectively paying 5 mana to bring them is ridiculous, weaknesses to LD aside.

[MaximumC]

Oh boy I sure am excited for crappy Safe Haven.

I hope we get desert Sorrow's Path next!!


I sure love to spend mana to exile my own creature, only to never get them back. :rolleyes:

Effectively paying 5 mana to bring them is ridiculous, weaknesses to LD aside.

no no no no

You gotta run Misthollow Griffin. See, then you can exile it, and then you can re-cast it from exile for only 4 mana. You save ONE. WHOLE. MANA.


Hollow one looks like a card with potential - a vanilla 4/4 you can cast for :1: in a lot of situations.

A legitimately interesting card got buried under all these silly ones. Hollow One by itself is boring, but its' a 4/4 Memnite if you are running a Bazaar of Baghdad deck. Like, Vintage Dredge, for example. It's questionable whether you want to clog your hand up with a card that does nothing but be a 4/4, but since you're mulling to find Bazaar anyway... a turn 1 4/4 can very well go the distance in that format. Absolutely worth testing!

[BenBleiweiss]

Ignore the typefont - this is a translation of an Italian card.
http://www.manaleak.com/mtguk/files/2016/08/Razaketh%E2%80%99s-Ritual-Hour-of-Devastation.jpg

Cycling Diabolic/Demonic Tutor?

[morgan_coke]

That is a pretty decent card in Standard and Modern, don't know that it's good enough for Legacy. OtoH, you're not giving up much if you just run this as a say, 2-of in a grindy deck. Draw them early, oh well, trade it in. Late? Tutor for your win.

Still, Five Mana is a LOT.

[tescrin]

Better or worse than Safe Haven?

Depends. Safe Haven gives it back without mana, and doesn't have to do it all at once. That makes it good for ETB abilities that don't care about timing; I bet it would be an OK way to double your Shriekmaw. This is better for timed ETBs despite the mana, since if you were to exile your Queller, you could use this to then drop that queller on a spell later on (or another card that depends on the stack to function well.)

That said, Safe Haven is pretty interesting as a way to avoid removal and I believe you can respond to it's triggered ability with it's other ability, allowing you to put a second guy (who is not in danger) under it to generate more CA. Saving an SFM or Snap from removal (just equip 'em) and you'll gain actual CA from your land for your trouble. Seems like it has (very mild) potential. Seems fine as a way to fog a big creature for an extra turn too.

[morgan_coke]

One thing I really do like about the new tutor is that they keep trying to make a tutor that fair decks can use, but isn't always best in a combo deck instead. Not sure they'll ever get there, but I do appreciate their attempts.

[rufus]

One thing I really do like about the new tutor is that they keep trying to make a tutor that fair decks can use, but isn't always best in a combo deck instead. Not sure they'll ever get there, but I do appreciate their attempts.

Fetchlands see play in 'fair' decks.

Paying mana for tutors really only makes sense for silver bullets and combo pieces.

[morgan_coke]

Tutors really only make sense for silver bullets and combo pieces.

Agreed, and for the "fair" decks to really compete, they need silver bullets. Like old rock decks with Vamp Tutor.

[Megadeus]

Agreed, and for the "fair" decks to really compete, they need silver bullets. Like old rock decks with Vamp Tutor.

That's what green Sun is for

[morgan_coke]

That's what green Sun is for

Oh, totally. Same with Eldritch Evolution. Just saying I appreciate the efforts to expand the options. Hope they get it right eventually.

[Gheizen64]

If they want a fair tutor there are tons of ways to do it. Diabolic Intent at B for example.

[Lemnear]

If they want a fair tutor there are tons of ways to do it. Diabolic Intent at B for example.

Yeah, because that is TOTALLY not dumb with Young Pyromancer + Probe + Therapy /s

[Echelon]

Yeah, because that is TOTALLY not dumb with Young Pyromancer + Probe + Therapy /s

You could have stopped at Young Pyromancer, lol. The last thing Grixis Delver needs next to Brainstorm/Ponder is a bunch of 1 mana Demonic Tutors.

[JackaBo]

Zero relevance to Legacy, but it's a little Hellion nostalgia trip for a creature I liked when I was a kid, Crater Hellion.

Chaos Maw :5::r::r:
Creature - Hellion (R)
When Chaos Maw enters the battlefield, it deals 3 damage to each other creature.
6/6
The food chain doesn't end with sandwurms.

Food chain ends with rat-tat-tat. This is known.

[Lormador]

You could have stopped at Young Pyromancer, lol. The last thing Grixis Delver needs next to Brainstorm/Ponder is a bunch of 1 mana Demonic Tutors.

What's it going to get, a sideboard card or another Cabal Therapy? I don't think the value is really there, considering that the card is going to be dead when the board is clear. It's a risk that deck doesn't need to take, not when it's all about redundancy in its disruption.

Diabolic Intent might be safe at 1 mana. I wouldn't mind seeing Pact SI get some love. Then again, I enjoy the idea of Mystical Tutor being unbanned (which will never happen) and go so far as to gather minty fresh copies of it in case the unthinkable ever happens.

[Dice_Box]

It's going to go and get whatever is required of the toolbox you add. Let's look at decks with tutors, Elves, Pod Fit, Storm, Lands, Painter, DnT, Maverick... Each one of these adapts to run single point targets. If you printed a card that slotted into Grixis as a 4 of tutor, the question is not "So your going to get another Threrapy?" It's "What 3 one of's am I adding to Grixis that hard and fast win my worst matches?"

Don't assume a deck won't adapt to powerful additions.

[Lemnear]

Its not that grabbing Therapy on demand with a Pyromancer in play is a bottom tier play in the first place

[Whitefaces]

Diabolic Intent at B would be hilariously busted. Probably get old real fast, we don't need more cards with kicker in this set.

[Gheizen64]

You could have stopped at Young Pyromancer, lol. The last thing Grixis Delver needs next to Brainstorm/Ponder is a bunch of 1 mana Demonic Tutors.

Yes, because actual 1B demonic tutors aren't clearly playable already :rolleyes:

[Echelon]

Yes, because actual 1B demonic tutors aren't clearly playable already :rolleyes:

Only when you're on ANT/TES.

[morgan_coke]

So nothing on Consign to Oblivion?

I think this is almost Legacy niche playable. 1U for a Diffusion is a fair cost, and yeah, the flashback half is overcosted by 2, at least, but it's still a worthwhile play off of a "free draw" card late game. Should be a Standard staple and show up in Modern too.

Consign
1U
Instant
Return target nonland permanent to it's owner's hand
//
Oblivion
4B
Sorcery
Target player discards two cards

[Dice_Box]

I don't see that seeing any play in Legacy or Modern.

[Cire]

Vizier of Consecrations 3U
Creature - Human Cleric U
When ~ enters the battlefied, search your library for a card with Embalm or Eternalize, put it in your graveyard, then shuffle your library.
Whenever you Eternalize or Embalm, draw a card.
2/4

If only Embalm and Eternalize weren't all horribly over costed. What's the best possible card you can get out of this (assuming 5 mana the next turn): Adorned Pouncer ? Even in Modern . . . that just seems terrible.

edit

http://i.imgur.com/1vyFvwP.png

Also blue gets reanimation now :rolleyes: (I mean yeah - blue had body snatcher as a previous graveyard copy effect . . . but come ON!)

[Phoenix Ignition]

I don't get it. Can someone who knows about magic storyline tell me why a blue card makes black zombies? I get that they wanted Embalm to turn white things into black creatures (because white has priests, and priests probably did the embalming) but what does blue do to make (black) zombies?

[Megadeus]

I mean maybe like Day of the Dragons is the precedent? Kind of a transfiguration type thing?

[Claymore]

Even flavorwise it doesn't make sense to me for the card to be blue. Functionally it's similar to Empty the Pits.

Back from the Brink is probably a closer precedent.

The only thing that seems Blue about this card is that it's so out of the color wheel that they put a super shitty casting cost on it.

[Gheizen64]

http://i.imgur.com/zOnD9yp.jpg

What does red do? It's like blue, but worse!

Is this poor man's mind's desire playable? So many limitations on it... I could've seen it in a big red deck if it hadn't the 5 cmc restriction, but not like this.

Top 4 is also extremely restrictive. In a big mana deck, it's hitting 2 non-lands cards on average, and just a single threat usually. Bah.

[Fox]

So if you flip over 4x 2cmc spells with Hazoret's Undying Fury, you can only cast two of them since it tallies cmcs and stops you at 5?

[rufus]

...
What does red do? It's like blue, but worse!
...

I imagine it started out as some kind of Epic Experiment variant, and then someone decided that RX would be bad and slapped the anti-chaining clause on. It's a turd-rate storm card. (How does WotC decide that Collected Company doesn't need a shuffle clause but this does?)

[theillest]

So if you flip over 4x 2cmc spells with Hazoret's Undying Fury, you can only cast two of them since it tallies cmcs and stops you at 5? I think that would read, "total converted mana cost 5 or less."

[Barook]

So if you flip over 4x 2cmc spells with Hazoret's Undying Fury, you can only cast two of them since it tallies cmcs and stops you at 5?
No, you cast each, there's nothing about total converted mana cost. The best deal you could get out of this is 4x 5cmc cards. It would have been okay for Standard without the "land exert", but this? Complete garbage.


Also blue gets reanimation now :rolleyes: (I mean yeah - blue had body snatcher as a previous graveyard copy effect . . . but come ON!)
Technically, WotC could argue that you copy creatures from your GY. Yeah, it's a stretch.

Innistrad also had blue zombies. They're black this time because Necrons.

[BenBleiweiss]

https://i.redd.it/sturh5tg2f6z.png

I mean, probably not good enough - but it is a permanent effect (Sorcery vs. something like Control Magic, which is an Enchantment).

[Crimhead]

I disagree. Not every card is going to be an a star. Some cards are made for limited/draft. Pointing at those cards and complaining about power as a non rotating format player is foolish.
I'm not complaining about five cards being underpowered.
I'm complaining about the vacuum of efficiently costed utility lands over the past almost decade.
Inkmoth and Mutavault were good. Stage was accidentally good after a subsequent rules change.
WotC will print creatures costed efficiently by Legacy standards, but not utility lands.


success are best measured by the target that was aimed at.
Yes. WotC are very successful at printing tonnes of draft-shaft and over-pricing activation costs on utility lands to ensure they are not powerful.

Their white-washing of Deserts is the biggest (mtg related) piss-off since they punted on the Enchantment block.

//ranting and whinning

[.dk]

What does red do? It's like blue, but worse!

Is this poor man's mind's desire playable? So many limitations on it... I could've seen it in a big red deck if it hadn't the 5 cmc restriction, but not like this.

Top 4 is also extremely restrictive. In a big mana deck, it's hitting 2 non-lands cards on average, and just a single threat usually. Bah.

So.... just cast Doomsday first? Burning Wish + LED's to cast it. Not saying it's good, but it's deterministic. :)

[Finn]

It's hard to like that card when Treachery is legal and unplayed. It's not that the expanded variety of permanents isn't wonderful. It's just that four mana hard cast at sorcery speed has to set you on a short path to victory in this format. What are you getting that is not a creature?

Chalice
Aether Vial
equipment
maybe Counterbalance
what else?

It does not even hit planeswalkers. I see minimal immediate value in any of those. Certainly, I don't want to slow-cast for four mana for any of that stuff, except maybe CB.

[mistercakes]

I really want to brew a deck with this fixed mind's desire and apocalypse. Prob need to run some kind of fork effect to better your chances. Definitely a casual deck although in a Stompy shell it can still steal wins.

[Fox]

Looking over this set where it's all huge scary sorceries, how long will Invasive Surgery be in standard? If it'll be there for a while, I'd guess the price would have to spike some as it'd be the best counterspell in the format alongside Negate....probably a good time to pick up a cheap playset for legacy use?

[Phoenix Ignition]

I'm not complaining about five cards being underpowered.
I'm complaining about the vacuum of efficiently costed utility lands over the past almost decade.
Inkmoth and Mutavault were good. Stage was accidentally good after a subsequent rules change.
WotC will print creatures costed efficiently by Legacy standards, but not utility lands.



I disagree, I'm a huge fan of Inventors' Fair, which is good enough to see play in Vintage. Cavern of Souls is the most ridiculously high-power low-drawback land I've seen in a long time, especially considering how blue has been increasingly popular throughout time. Creeping Tar pit is an amazing manland, probably the best in that cycle but certainly not the only playable one. Eye of Ugin is a disgustingly powerful utility land after the printing of more eldrazi. Stuff like Bojuka Bog round out any list with knight of the reliquary. There are some cool utility lands that probably just barely miss the cut like Blighted Fen, but could definitely be worth running at some point.

Just because they haven't printed a better Wasteland or some of their utility lands aren't legacy playable doesn't mean they aren't still producing cool stuff to use from time to time.

[TsumiBand]

http://i.imgur.com/zOnD9yp.jpg

What does red do? It's like blue, but worse!

Is this poor man's mind's desire playable? So many limitations on it... I could've seen it in a big red deck if it hadn't the 5 cmc restriction, but not like this.

Top 4 is also extremely restrictive. In a big mana deck, it's hitting 2 non-lands cards on average, and just a single threat usually. Bah.

So what you do is, you cast it after a Doomsday, and just have four game-winners with cmc < 4 in your deck right? /s

[Barook]

I disagree, I'm a huge fan of Inventors' Fair, which is good enough to see play in Vintage. Cavern of Souls is the most ridiculously high-power low-drawback land I've seen in a long time, especially considering how blue has been increasingly popular throughout time. Creeping Tar pit is an amazing manland, probably the best in that cycle but certainly not the only playable one. Eye of Ugin is a disgustingly powerful utility land after the printing of more eldrazi. Stuff like Bojuka Bog round out any list with knight of the reliquary. There are some cool utility lands that probably just barely miss the cut like Blighted Fen, but could definitely be worth running at some point.

Just because they haven't printed a better Wasteland or some of their utility lands aren't legacy playable doesn't mean they aren't still producing cool stuff to use from time to time.
Only Fair is recent. The rest are old-ass lands. Eye of Ugin and Bojuka Bog are 7+ years old. Cavern is 5 years old. The rest has to actually prove their value first.

Wizards is scared of printing actually good utility lands nowadays for stupid bullshit reasons. Inventors' Fair was probably a fluke. Remember when they didn't put out legendary lands for years because they didn't feel special enough?

[Michael Keller]

So what you do is, you cast it after a Doomsday, and just have four game-winners with cmc < 4 in your deck right? /s

Seems like a funny way to chain all sorts of crazy shit with Temporal Aperture.

[Ace/Homebrew]

It's hard to like that card when Treachery is legal and unplayed. It's not that the expanded variety of permanents isn't wonderful. It's just that four mana hard cast at sorcery speed has to set you on a short path to victory in this format. What are you getting that is not a creature?

Chalice
Aether Vial
equipment
maybe Counterbalance
what else?

It does not even hit planeswalkers. I see minimal immediate value in any of those. Certainly, I don't want to slow-cast for four mana for any of that stuff, except maybe CB.
You're out 4 mana and a card if you steal an opponent's Chalice...
Plus you'll have to remember to counter their spells since it becomes your trigger. :tongue:

[Aggro_zombies]

I don't get it. Can someone who knows about magic storyline tell me why a blue card makes black zombies? I get that they wanted Embalm to turn white things into black creatures (because white has priests, and priests probably did the embalming) but what does blue do to make (black) zombies?
Eternals are always black to contrast with embalmed creatures always being white. Blue wouldn't make non-black tokens because then it would weaken the association with the Eternals.

As for why blue gets this card, probably because it's basically a non-temporary clone effect. They could have made this card partially black (like Dimir Doppelganger), but there's precedent for the effect also being mono-blue, and maybe they wanted to separate it a bit more from The Scarab God.

[BooleanLobster]

Rules question on Hazoret's Undying Fury - is it still on the stack when the spells that it hits are resolving? If so, can I load up my deck with 12+ copies of Fork and friends?

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

http://mythicspoiler.com/hou/cards/crestedsunmare.jpg

This card is super pushed, could be broken in standard. Great in EDH(Oloro).



In modern it competes with
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=370627&type=card

[BenBleiweiss]

We have an actual, genuine contender for Legacy (and Vintage):

http://i.imgur.com/katI7kk.jpg

Is Leave the most powerful self-bounce spell ever printed for decks that care about that (ala Hurkyl's Recall)?

[Lava Snacks]

Is Leave the most powerful self-bounce spell ever printed for decks that care about that (ala Hurkyl's Recall)?

I suppose we can't count Scapegoat in lower tier Cheeri0s, even though it's bangin' in that deck :tongue:

I don't know if it'll ever be relevant, but it's worth noting that it doesn't specify nonland.

[BenBleiweiss]

I suppose we can't count Scapegoat in lower tier Cheeri0s, even though it's bangin' in that deck :tongue:

I don't know if it'll ever be relevant, but it's worth noting that it doesn't specify nonland.

I really really want someone to build a deck with Seismic Assault, Leave/Chance and Shadow of the Grave. It's bad, but hey - Shadow of the Grave, in response activate Lion's Eye Diamond can play along with the silliness!

In more seriousness - is there a deck that wants to run Leave/Chance on the board against mass-destruction (like a fringy Merfolk or Lands sideboard tech?)

[Barook]

For what it's worth, it can also return stolen cards back to your hand.

At worst, it can save a card from removal. I like it.

Edit: @Sunmare: This + Ancient Tomb + Sun Droplet


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWFBqiUgspg&t=196s