Hour of Devastation [HOU]

[supremePINEAPPLE]

French magic site screwed up so we get some early previews. Nothing too interesting for us but the wrath is kinda cool.

https://i.imgur.com/DTNXG2z.png

https://i.imgur.com/HOjh3pE.png

https://i.imgur.com/4tRYs5z.png

[H]

Both 'Walkers are probably Eternal and even Modern irrelevant.

That Black wrath though...I can actually imagine situations where that could be better than Toxic Deluge, especially in something like Vintage, where artifact mana is more plentiful.

EDIT: Hmm, someone else mentioned it, so I do wonder if there might be a cycle of "Last Reckonings" for each god.

How broken do you think something like this would be?

Kefnet's Last Reckoning :u::u:
Counter target spell. Lands you control don't untap during your next untap phase.

For Modern obviously.

[Cire]

Lol, I like that Bontu's Last Reckoning allows Bontu to attack.

[Richard Cheese]

Lol, I like that Bontu's Last Reckoning allows Bontu to attack.

Oh snap, maybe that will be a theme with all of them.

Kefnet = Timetwister
Rhonas = Overrun
Oketra = tokens
Hazoret = probably some terrible trash that requires discarding your entire hand for almost no payoff

[rufus]

...

That Black wrath though...I can actually imagine situations where that could be better than Toxic Deluge, especially in something like Vintage, where artifact mana is more plentiful.
...

Obviously strong card is obviously strong. I think this wrath tends to be better than deluge if you're in topdeck mode.

Sometimes life totals do matter, you want more than 4 wrath effects, creatures are too big for deluge, or you're playing modern.

[MorphBerlin]

Obviously strong card is obviously strong. I think this wrath tends to be better than deluge if you're in topdeck mode.

Sometimes life totals do matter, you want more than 4 wrath effects, creatures are too big for deluge, or you're playing modern.

It's defenitly worse than Deluge...

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Double black compared to deluge makes it a lot harder to randomly include in the decks that use deluge already too. I like the design a lot but I don't expect to see it much at all in legacy.

[Dice_Box]

It seems that Wizard's has learnt that wraths need to be both in Standard and playable. After all the recent shit that happened, that is a good sign for the direction of the game. Also I like it, lowering the cost to cast but effectively doubling the cost. That spell is in effect 6 mana at its lowest but you don't notice that at first. Good design.

[Ellomdian]

Reckoning is... interesting.

The life total starts to matter when you need to cast more than one Wrath. BB makes it pretty restrictive, so it's not splash-able, but 3CMC is a big deal. F'ing pox sends it's regards... :p

[Lemnear]

I like any delayed-cost mechanics like Pacts & Co.

I hope this is a cycle with more playable effects

[Scott]

I like any delayed-cost mechanics like Pacts & Co.

I hope this is a cycle with more playable effects

I don't know what I'd do with all my middle school nostalgia if echo ever came back. To this day, I'd be more excited to slam a Lightning Dragon or Winding Wurm than a Griselbrand.

[Tylert]

It seems that Wizard's has learnt that wraths need to be both in Standard and playable. After all the recent shit that happened, that is a good sign for the direction of the game. Also I like it, lowering the cost to cast but effectively doubling the cost. That spell is in effect 6 mana at its lowest but you don't notice that at first. Good design.

unfortunately it doesn't answers Marvel :( (Let's keep playing legacy :) )

[Dice_Box]

unfortunately it doesn't answers Marvel :( (Let's keep playing legacy :) )
I have no idea what Marvel is, outside of a wonder creator of fantastic movies and comics.

On topic. I don't see this seeing a lot of play in Legacy. 3 mana is good, but the double B cost added on top of its true cost of 6 mana. It may see some fringe use but it's not taking over the format.

[MaximumC]

3 mana unconditional wrath. Um.

This card is really, really good ya'll. Sure, it has a drawback. One you don't have to deal with right away. This puts a board wipe online in the early game that is not unplayable if you draw it late. You're trading tempo for an early effect. The Suspend mechanic showed us how powerful this can be, in a very general sense.

Imagine you're a control deck. A three mana all-wrath is amazing. Stops you from dying to Elves and Eldrazi equally. Then, if you have it late game, you can still leave up whatever mana was not used to cast it for countering. It does not tap all your land, it just stops whatever you did use from untapping.


It's defenitly worse than Deluge...

No sir. Deluge is great, but if you draw it when you really need a wrath to save your life, you'll often run into times where you cannot cast it because it'll kill you. This bad boy never has that problem. You can literally ALWAYS pay tempo in exchange for a 2-for-1 (or better!) if you have to.


Double black compared to deluge makes it a lot harder to randomly include in the decks that use deluge already too. I like the design a lot but I don't expect to see it much at all in legacy.

Yes, this is fair. Card still is rock hard.


I like any delayed-cost mechanics like Pacts & Co.

I hope this is a cycle with more playable effects

The blue one is Savor the Moment.

[TsumiBand]

I guess I don't see the point in a 3 mana Wrath where you spend the next turn handicapped too badly to maintain the tempo swing

[tescrin]

No sir. Deluge is great, but if you draw it when you really need a wrath to save your life, you'll often run into times where you cannot cast it because it'll kill you. This bad boy never has that problem. You can literally ALWAYS pay tempo in exchange for a 2-for-1 (or better!) if you have to.


Sure, but it always* has a different problem. Where Deluge can be 1-sided a lot of times by having better Toughness, this always costs your own boardstate and usually costs you a turn of *maybe* having counterspell mana open. And BB is a non-trivial extra.

Deluge is sometimes lame, but that's black for ya.

[TsumiBand]

I mean this feels like the kind of wrath effect that any aggro deck which can also draw cards would just laugh off as it casually reloads, replays some threats and basically gets pseudo haste from since your next turn isfonna be like land-go

Like this is a weird comparison but if Goblins were still a thing this new wrath would lose you the game as a Ringleader just roflstomps your attempt at tempo

[Megadeus]

Oh snap, maybe that will be a theme with all of them.

Kefnet = Timetwister
Rhonas = Overrun
Oketra = tokens
Hazoret = probably some terrible trash that requires discarding your entire hand for almost no payoff

Wonder how much the twister would cost to not be unplayable or broken.

[Gheizen64]

Wheel or twister at 4 are fine. Diminishing return already exist.

Bontu's reckoning is decent but deluge is better in too many cases, life total matter less than losing a whole turn of tempo in like 90% of cases in legacy, then add the fact that deluge can be asymmetric and it's easier to cast. Unless burn become a significant part of the metagame, and even then, losing a turn of tempo is deceptively backbreaking a lot of times.

[Icapica]

Hazoret = probably some terrible trash that requires discarding your entire hand for almost no payoff
It could also be some kind of a Through the Breach / Sneak Attack type effect that allows you to at least partially empty your hand.

[Mr. Safety]

I guess I don't see the point in a 3 mana Wrath where you spend the next turn handicapped too badly to maintain the tempo swing

THIS, all day long. Even Pox players can play, you know, POX, and get a lot more for one card.

[Megadeus]

Wheel or twister at 4 are fine. Diminishing return already exist.

Bontu's reckoning is decent but deluge is better in too many cases, life total matter less than losing a whole turn of tempo in like 90% of cases in legacy, then add the fact that deluge can be asymmetric and it's easier to cast. Unless burn become a significant part of the metagame, and even then, losing a turn of tempo is deceptively backbreaking a lot of times.

Yeah but at 4 it's probably not a playable effect

[Sylphnir]

I have no idea what Marvel is, outside of a wonder creator of fantastic movies and comics.
Just in case you really don't know and feel the desire to change that:
It's proclaimed the strongest standard deck atm, designed to spin Aetherworks Marvel to slam some Ulamogs (with cast trigger) from turn 4 upwards.
It took the place of the Saheeli+Felidar Guardian deck post ban as the defining combo deck of the format. The rest of the deck is 3-5 color goodstuff and energy producers.
It works reasonably well but people really don't like the RNG aspect of it.


On topic: for a character whose defining trait is speed and whose combat style is associated with dancing, Samut sure is super clumsy.
I actually checked the collector number to make sure she isn't the PW Deck version...

[Megadeus]

Just in case you really don't know and feel the desire to change that:
It's proclaimed the strongest standard deck atm, designed to spin Aetherworks Marvel to slam some Ulamogs (with cast trigger) from turn 4 upwards.
It took the place of the Saheeli+Felidar Guardian deck post ban as the defining combo deck of the format. The rest of the deck is 3-5 color goodstuff and energy producers.
It works reasonably well but people really don't like the RNG aspect of it.


On topic: for a character whose defining trait is speed and whose combat style is associated with dancing, Samut sure is super clumsy.
I actually checked the collector number to make sure she isn't the PW Deck version...

I looked yesterday and Marvel is almost 40% of the standard meta apparently

[tescrin]

I looked yesterday and Marvel is almost 40% of the standard meta apparently

They really need standard sets again. A needle effect (new or old) would give decks an adequate hoser to both this AND the banned strategy (saheeli cats) and badda-bing; things are interesting maybe?

I really think that's about their only issue in standard. They don't want people to have answers that were readily available to standard formats before. Even when Bolt got nerfed, Shock was evergreen. Black always had a good, 2 mana, instant speed removal. White always had a 4-5 mana sweeper. And answers that were less flavorful could be stuck in the standard set. I can understand the tension of escalating boardstates, but then effects like this become difference-makers. Hell, even just putting Bind in would be great, and probably good for modern too.

[Darkenslight]

It seems that Wizard's has learnt that wraths need to be both in Standard and playable. After all the recent shit that happened, that is a good sign for the direction of the game. Also I like it, lowering the cost to cast but effectively doubling the cost. That spell is in effect 6 mana at its lowest but you don't notice that at first. Good design.

It may also be a preview to a non-keyworded mechanic, as it's basically exert for your lands.

[Claymore]

I think the Wrath is playable, especially in control decks that utilize mana rocks (UB Tezz). A turn 4 board wipe is often too slow now. Doesn't force your life total low like multiple Deluges. And you can T3 Bontu, T4 drop a land and have 1 mana interaction.

I think it's harsh but playable. The 'exert your lands' design is very interesting.

[Megadeus]

I think the Wrath is playable, especially in control decks that utilize mana rocks (UB Tezz). A turn 4 board wipe is often too slow now. Doesn't force your life total low like multiple Deluges. And you can T3 Bontu, T4 drop a land and have 1 mana interaction.

I think it's harsh but playable. The 'exert your lands' design is very interesting.

It would be cool if it were like give -2 -2 or "exert your lands" destroy all creatures instead

[tescrin]

It would be cool if it were like give -2 -2 or "exert your lands" destroy all creatures instead

Something else interesting about it is that this is the second black wrath (Yahenni's Expertise gives -3/-3) in a couple sets. Sounds like they're accepting that (with downsides) as more of a thing again. IIRC they strayed from that for awhile since it's more of a white characteristic. I could be way off

[Barook]

If they go back to cheaper Wraths, can we please go back to quality 1-drop mana dorks as well? I really miss them.

It's still funny how all of their recent design decisions backfired hard and now they're backpedaling everywhere.

[MorphBerlin]

No sir. Deluge is great, but if you draw it when you really need a wrath to save your life, you'll often run into times where you cannot cast it because it'll kill you. This bad boy never has that problem. You can literally ALWAYS pay tempo in exchange for a 2-for-1 (or better!) if you have to.


Oh gosh, people freaking out in spoiler season again... What I read in this threat of what will take over legacy is so funny^^

Wann take a bet on this? Seems totally great when you play this on t3 and get time walked while your opponent rebuilds his board:laugh:

[Crimhead]

If they go back to cheaper Wraths, can we please go back to quality 1-drop mana dorks as well? I really miss them.

What?

We have Hierarch & DRS. I think we are okay for 1-drop mana dorks.

Meanwhile, ~25 years into the game we can't get a discount on Wrath without a serious drawback. WotC sure love creatures.

[Barook]

Meanwhile, ~25 years into the game we can't get a discount on Wrath without a serious drawback.
*cough* Terminus *cough*

[Darkenslight]

*cough* Terminus *cough*

That's not a wrath, that's a broken-ass interaction with the top of your deck. Plus, it tucks your DRS to bed.

[Crimhead]

*cough* Terminus *cough*

In a post-SDT environment, it has yet to be established that the restrictive alt-cost condition is not a significant draw-back.

@Darkenslight, I feel we should at least wait for Terminus to prove itself competitively viable before we start thowing around terms lime "broken".

[Secretly.A.Bee]

This "Bontu's Damnation" will see play somewhere, but its likely not in legacy unless its in Pox, which, lets face it, isn't really on the map right now. Sure its fast, but do you really want to spend six mana on it? Early, its a time walk for your opponent. Late, its only better than Deluge/Damnation if you play Sword of Feast and Famine or if your life is really low, and even then, its still just a wrath effect that Damnation would have been equal to at that stage of the game anyway. Its decent for modern 8Rack. Thats where ill play it, anyway.

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk

[Ace/Homebrew]

Its decent for modern 8Rack. Thats where ill play it, anyway.
You think? :eyebrow:
Against any opponent going wide, Flaying Tendrils is better (exiles, dodges anti-black, AND let's you untap).

I think this card will see Standard play because of a lack of alternatives.

[s&s]

3 mana unconditional wrath. Um.

This card is really, really good ya'll.

No its not.

Other formats have superior sweepers such as deluge and damnation, meaning this card will (might) see play in standard, where sweltering suns is a stronger option, hitting 95% (99%?) of the creatures Bontu's does in the early game, without timewalking yourself and offering cycling as additional benefit.

Looking at the standard metagame, this card is bad against Mardu vehicles (heart of kiran and gideon will have a laugh at you), bad against temur energy (swipe board on T3, watch them play their bristling hydra, get timewalked), blue red control (not enough creatures), you want to board it out against temur marvel... standard decks generally have 0-3 creatures with thoughness > 4, so if you can do RR and want a sweeper, you want sweltering suns over Bontu's all day long.

[s&s]

I think the Wrath is playable, especially in control decks that utilize mana rocks (UB Tezz). A turn 4 board wipe is often too slow now. Doesn't force your life total low like multiple Deluges. And you can T3 Bontu, T4 drop a land and have 1 mana interaction.

Tezzeret decks don't play 1 mana interaction. You know, since they run 4 chalices and all that.

[frafen]

The new wrath looks good, In my opinion its power level is close to deluge and damnation.

[MorphBerlin]

The new wrath looks good, In my opinion its power level is close to deluge and damnation.

I would disagree, a wrath that basically gives you op a free turn to rebuild seems bad when you have the mentioned alternatives. It will only be played in standard or in a deck dthat can midigate the drawback somehow

[Crimhead]

Nice if we could get a straight-up (not conditional) power creeped Wrath. :(

[Dice_Box]

Nice if we could get a straight-up (not conditional) power creeped Wrath. :(
I don't think that's likely to happen. I understand the desire, the power level of creatures now compared to when Wrath appeared in Alpha is night and day different. But I see it like the Counterspells of today. You might get a Spell Pierce as a cheaper counter to the original, but you won't get a strict upgrade today. Not like Mana Drain was years past.

[Megadeus]

I don't think that's likely to happen. I understand the desire, the power level of creatures now compared to when Wrath appeared in Alpha is night and day different. But I see it like the Counterspells of today. You might get a Spell Pierce as a cheaper counter to the original, but you won't get a strict upgrade today. Not like Mana Drain was years past.

A spell Pierce for creatures would be kind of nice honestly. But blue already has the best 3 drop creatures so maybe it's too much

[Scott]

A spell Pierce for creatures would be kind of nice honestly. But blue already has the best 3 drop creatures so maybe it's too much

Could power creep Withering Boon.

[tescrin]

A spell Pierce for creatures would be kind of nice honestly. But blue already has the best 3 drop creatures so maybe it's too much

Honestly I was looking for a "Fair" mental misstep in gatherer and realized they never printed such a thing. A spell that said "Counter target spell 1 CMC or less" at 1 mana would be pretty handy. There's not even a 1-mana "Counter target Instant" which I also found obnoxious. They have loads of "Counter target sorcery" or "if no mana was spent to cast this" or things like that. Sad times.

In my brewing I've been playing Spellstutter Sprite and Spell Queller (actually going 3-1 and 3-0 over the last week) just because they hit *anything* (usually. Terminus/Gurmag/etc.. is a funny problem) and that's a great feeling.


EDIT: I should mention that I was Supreme Verdict'd a couple times by Topless the other day, and it's pretty good. I think I was even Snap-Verdict'd hah. MFW am i right?
A wrath that pitches to force, can't be forced, can be played on curve, and has no downsides other than color reqs... pretty alright. Compare to this where you will either play it into Daze/Spierce or have way more mana up just to make sure or jam it and cross your fingers.. it has some issues.

[Dice_Box]

Honestly I was looking for a "Fair" mental misstep in gatherer and realized they never printed such a thing. A spell that said "Counter target spell 1 CMC or less" at 1 mana would be pretty handy. There's not even a 1-mana "Counter target Instant" which I also found obnoxious. They have loads of "Counter target sorcery" or "if no mana was spent to cast this" or things like that. Sad times.
Dispel.

I think Verdict seeing play is good for the format. That's a card that I feel should have seen play but was held back by other forces. It's a good thing that it's back. It's a measure of change.

[mgrinshpon]

There's not even a 1-mana "Counter target Instant" which I also found obnoxious.

Dispel

[Bosque]

Dispel

For that matter Force Spike or Disrupt, sorta.

[MaximumC]

Oh gosh, people freaking out in spoiler season again... What I read in this threat of what will take over legacy is so funny^^

Wann take a bet on this? Seems totally great when you play this on t3 and get time walked while your opponent rebuilds his board:laugh:

A bet on what, exactly? I didn't say it was going to see X amount of play or anything. I'm not in tune with the Legacy competitive meta-game to know that. I also am not sure if there's a control list deep enough in black to make this possible. Not every good card sees play. I just said it's a good card, and I stand by that.

The power of a Wrath effect is sometimes in tempo, but not always. The power often comes from just being able to hit your opponent with a 2-for-1 or better, and undo likely several turn's worth of development. Four-mana Wraths were a mainstay of control decks in the game for a long time, and for good reason. Turn 4 is exactly when a slower deck really needs to wipe away the faster deck's first three turns of development. Slower than that and the slower deck probably has lost already.

The risk of Wraths also changes how your opponent has to play even if you don't cast it. Aggro opponents have to be very careful how they commit to the board if they are concerned about a wrath effect. The net effect is to slow them down even when you're not actually casting the spell.

I think people lose sight of how Wraths used to function in light of how Terminus is used. Miracles has Wrath effects on tap at only one mana, and so it can afford to use Terminus as generic removal rather than holding it back for a blowout. That is, Miracles is perfectly happy to pop Terminus for W just to remove a single threat if it needs to. But, it has to jump through some hoops to get there. Not enormous ones, no, but you can't really take Terminus out of a shell with lots of top deck manipulation and hope for it to go that way. Other Wraths do not play so quickly.

Which brings me to what I like about this card. It's a 3-mana unconditional wrath. Now, I completely agree that I would reach for Toxic Deluge before this card. It's easier to cast, it deals with Blightsteel Colossus (less of an issue in Legacy than Vintage, of course) and can be one-sided if your creatures have bigger butts than your opponent. Nevertheless, Deluge costs you life. If you are dealing with Elves or Goblins or whatever, no big deal. But, what about Eldrazi? Shops? Merfolk with a handful of lords out there? Suddenly, you're paying a significant amount of life which, between beats and fetches, you may not comfortably be able to spend.

Bontu's Big Day Out does not suffer from this problem and, assuming you're heavy enough in black to make the BB a non-issue, it solves all the problems you want a Wrath to solve. It does not cost you life as a resource. Instead, it costs you tempo. If you're in a tempo deck, like BUG Delver or whatever the cool kids are playing, this is probably not acceptable. Fine. But, what if you're in a control deck? What if you are in a value deck like Jund? If your goal is just to accumulate 2-for-1s in a control role, this card seems quite good for what it does.

To be more precise, let's look at how this plays at various turns of the game:

Turn 1 - You're realistically only casting this off of a Dark Ritual, and only if your opponent went SERIOUSLY CRAZY on their turn. Next turn, you'll be down 1 mana.

Turn 2 - You can be casting this off of a few lands and an artifact like Mox Opal or Mox Diamond. This is a realistic window to cast this card if you are facing something that has deployed critical early game creatures, like Elves. Next turn, you'll be down 2 mana. That's a serious tempo blow.

Turn 3 - The natural turn to cast this guy is turn 3, and I think it's actually at its worst here. The tempo loss is at its maximum, you're most likely to be totally tapped out the turn after you play it, and if you got to this turn against a deck where you really need this effect, you might be hard pressed to make up that tempo. Elves, for example, can barf literally it's whole hand once we're at turn 3 or 4.

Turn 4+ - As the game goes on, Bontu gets better and better. The more mana you have in play that you do NOT have to dedicate to Bontu, the more irrelevant the drawback becomes. Indeed, whereas a late game Deluge can be unplayable, a late game Bontu is better than an early game Bontu.

That's why I think this is a good card.

[MorphBerlin]

I said its defentily worse then deluge, you disagreed.

You created some fringe situation where it might be better.

I say it's worse 90+% of the time, you disagree, if you are right this is bound to see legacy play isn't it? (I am not including vintage) I say it won't see paly aside from somebody testing it. That's what I wanted to bet

[Kanti]

Honestly I was looking for a "Fair" mental misstep in gatherer and realized they never printed such a thing. A spell that said "Counter target spell 1 CMC or less" at 1 mana would be pretty handy. There's not even a 1-mana "Counter target Instant" which I also found obnoxious. They have loads of "Counter target sorcery" or "if no mana was spent to cast this" or things like that. Sad times.

In my brewing I've been playing Spellstutter Sprite and Spell Queller (actually going 3-1 and 3-0 over the last week) just because they hit *anything* (usually. Terminus/Gurmag/etc.. is a funny problem) and that's a great feeling.


EDIT: I should mention that I was Supreme Verdict'd a couple times by Topless the other day, and it's pretty good. I think I was even Snap-Verdict'd hah. MFW am i right?
A wrath that pitches to force, can't be forced, can be played on curve, and has no downsides other than color reqs... pretty alright. Compare to this where you will either play it into Daze/Spierce or have way more mana up just to make sure or jam it and cross your fingers.. it has some issues.

Um, there is a fair Mental Misstep. It's called Force Spike.

[MaximumC]

I said its defentily worse then deluge, you disagreed.

You created some fringe situation where it might be better.

I say it's worse 90+% of the time, you disagree, if you are right this is bound to see legacy play isn't it? (I am not including vintage) I say it won't see paly aside from somebody testing it. That's what I wanted to bet

I know people who have their finger on the heartbeat of formats take bets like that. Steve Menedian and Kevin Chron always make concrete predictions on new cards in Vintage, for example, and God bless' em for putting their neck out there.

Basically, you hit the nail on the head in your post - Deluge is better in more situations, and the times when Bontu's Birthday is preferable are probably in the minority. In a format as diverse as Legacy, the big unknown factor is whether a deck exists that caters to that minority. Is B/U control a thing? It sure doesn't appear to be at the moment, and the closest we have (BUG) is a tempo strategy that probably can't run Bontu Busts Out.

So, the card could be quite good, but never make any significant waves because the situation / deck that makes it good either doesn't exist or is not a good fit for the metagame.

Still, if I was pressed to put a figure on the number of top 8 appearances of this card between it's release and the release of the next set after HOD, I think I'd say... 3. I think people will try it, and some of them will even have moderate success with it. But it won't go anywhere without infrastructure to support it. I am making a wild guess in putting that figure out there, though!

[rufus]

...
I say it's worse 90+% of the time, you disagree, if you are right this is bound to see legacy play isn't it? (I am not including vintage) I say it won't see paly aside from somebody testing it. That's what I wanted to bet

Right, but it's not 90% of the time for every deck. Maybe this wrath finds a sideboard slot in Ad Nauseam decks or something else that burns life as a resource.

I do think it will be much more of a player in modern where deluge is not available.

Edit: I also think that the drawback isn't as drastic as people seem to think it is, though we'll just see how things turn out.

[MaximumC]

Edit: I also think that the drawback isn't as drastic as people seem to think it is, though we'll just see how things turn out.

It's really hard to say, and it's intensely context-dependent. If you're just racking up 2-for-1s, then maybe the drawback doesn't matter. If it's the late game or if you Dark Ritual'd this out, probably doesn't matter either.

The reason why I agree with the naysayers that Deluge wins out most of the time is that when you're using this for the traditional wrath window of turn 3 or so, that's exactly when the drawback hits you the hardest. It maximizes the tempo loss and the chance that you're just plain naked on the following turn.

[ReAnimator]

Ramunap Excavator
2G
Naga Cleric
2/3
You may play lands from your graveyard.


Sooooooo crucible with legs for a reasonable cost, is this a game changer?

http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/778058-hour-of-devistation-promo-materials-and-new-cards

[maharis]

OMG is this real? GSZable crucible, holy shit

[LOLWut]

wtf am I even looking at with this cat art?

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/163/750/636329523678450662.jpg

[MaximumC]

Ramunap Excavator
2G
Naga Cleric
2/3
You may play lands from your graveyard.


Sooooooo crucible with legs for a reasonable cost, is this a game changer?

http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/778058-hour-of-devistation-promo-materials-and-new-cards

Yes. I think this card, all by itself, makes decks that want to run GSZ and Wasteland tremendously deadly. Maverick, Noble Fish, and others can take advantage of this.

[Cire]

Ramunap Excavator looks awesome.

Wildfire Eternal also looks interesting . . . it's a punisher mechanic so I doubt it would have legacy applications - but it would be fun to combine with 1 mana cards that make it unblockable and then you cast a big spell (yeah yeah, terrible 3 card combo, but whatever its fun :) )

[tescrin]

It'll be interesting to see if Loam picks up the dude. On the one hand he's in color, a threat, and acts like further Loams, on the other hand he has the some of the problems of crucible (you want to have missed your land drop to use him and get CA) and can get removed. Opening up your opp's removal spells seems bad, but getting your waste engine online even more reliably seems alright, and forcing them to leave in removal seems ok as well.

That said, he may not see tons of play due to being very weak to DRS and being a 3-mana dude, making you want DRS to use him as well. Historically these effects on a dude are generally meh. While Tilling Treefolk gains you a full +2 CA even if he lands on turn 2 with the appropriate composition, this guy may not gain you CA until T3 or T4, and less of it. Treefolk is also GSZ-able and I've never seen him in a Wasteland list. I have my doubts that a perma-lock vs. getting you a "mere two more wastelands" will actually be the difference; but I can see myself grabbing a set that I'll never use like I do on many legacy prospects haha

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Sweet card but likely worse than Crucible or Renegade Railer. Worse than crucible in the decks that want it due to dying to bolt, and they likely aren't going to be using cavern to cast it, and Railer, while only an ETB effect, provides more overall utility in the decks that would play it.

[bruizar]

You're all nuts. Crucible naga is insane. The ability to sacrifice dryad arbor to cabal therapies repeatedly is enough to make this a staple in nicfit.

[tescrin]

You're all nuts. Crucible naga is insane. The ability to sacrifice dryad arbor to cabal therapies repeatedly is enough to make this a staple in nicfit.

Yeah but we're talking about decks that win :tongue:


I guess. But why do you need more therapy outlets? By the time this guy is going is your opp still sitting on a bunch of cards for your therapies anyway? And what about their DRS?

[square_two]

You're all nuts. Crucible naga is insane. The ability to sacrifice dryad arbor to cabal therapies repeatedly is enough to make this a staple in nicfit.

I'm thinking more along the lines of how GSZ -> Crucible really solidifies a green stax shell.

Chalice, Trinisphere, Smokestack, sol lands combined with GSZ swiss army knife including Trackers + Crucible naga.

[rufus]

Ramunap Excavator looks awesome.

Wildfire Eternal also looks interesting . . . it's a punisher mechanic so I doubt it would have legacy applications - but it would be fun to combine with 1 mana cards that make it unblockable and then you cast a big spell (yeah yeah, terrible 3 card combo, but whatever its fun :) )

I like the 'blocking matters' punisher mechanic though. The CC is way too high for legacy.

The crucible with legs looks like an interesting card. Is there a deck with City of Traitors/Wasteland/Trinisphere that prefers having a body in play? (Edit: Maybe a chalice deck with ESG?)

[Barook]

The main selling point of the Naga is being a CoW you can tutor for with GSZ. The opportunity cost for running even just a single copy as tutor target doesn't seem too bad.

Also Mom #5, aka the GSZ-able Sylvan Safekeeper, has decent synergy with it. While being weaker to removal, Mom can also be used to protect it from Abrupt Decay.

Maybe a new breed of Maverick pops up that relies heavily on Wasteland/Ghost Quarter for mana denial, with a combination of Naga and Renegade Railer for recursion.

Naga is also easier to hardcast under Thalia.

@square_two: Tracker/Naga sounds pretty sexy.

@Rufus: Maybe ESG + some copies of Mox Diamond?

[maharis]

It'll be interesting to see if Loam picks up the dude. On the one hand he's in color, a threat, and acts like further Loams, on the other hand he has the some of the problems of crucible (you want to have missed your land drop to use him and get CA) and can get removed. Opening up your opp's removal spells seems bad, but getting your waste engine online even more reliably seems alright, and forcing them to leave in removal seems ok as well.

That said, he may not see tons of play due to being very weak to DRS and being a 3-mana dude, making you want DRS to use him as well. Historically these effects on a dude are generally meh. While Tilling Treefolk gains you a full +2 CA even if he lands on turn 2 with the appropriate composition, this guy may not gain you CA until T3 or T4, and less of it. Treefolk is also GSZ-able and I've never seen him in a Wasteland list. I have my doubts that a perma-lock vs. getting you a "mere two more wastelands" will actually be the difference; but I can see myself grabbing a set that I'll never use like I do on many legacy prospects haha

I actually have never heard of Tilling Treefolk before and I actually think it's an interesting card for Loam decks right now considering the zillions of Surgicals hanging around. Big problem is probably the fact that there aren't a ton of people testing non-blue decks like this because the blue decks are safer bets. I personally am looking forward to playing some brews in side events this weekend.


Sweet card but likely worse than Crucible or Renegade Railer. Worse than crucible in the decks that want it due to dying to bolt, and they likely aren't going to be using cavern to cast it, and Railer, while only an ETB effect, provides more overall utility in the decks that would play it.

I guess this works as a pessimist view, but there are other ways to look at it. The second Naga is better than the second Crucible because it can attack. It doesn't require you to hit Revolt to get value like Rallier. GSZ finds this unlike Crucible. This works every turn unlike Rallier.

The cards aren't strictly better or worse, just different. To me, Crucible has proved itself to be a strong enough effect that a card with the same effect and the same CMC and different ups and downs is worth looking at.

[Cire]

In a different vein - any fun guesses at what eternalize could be?

[rufus]

...

@Rufus: Maybe ESG + some copies of Mox Diamond?

The synergy is there, but I'm not sure you can afford to run enough lands to justify Mox Diamond unless you go deep with Wasteland and Ghost Quarter.

Naga is also better than Crucible with Chrome Mox.

[Barook]

In a different vein - any fun guesses at what eternalize could be?
Overcosted garbage.

Probably something in the lines of Megaembalm.

[Ace/Homebrew]

In a different vein - any fun guesses at what eternalize could be?
Something something indestructible :rolleyes:

[Claymore]

MegaEmbalm seems likely, except the token being indestructible.

You guys are nuts, the Snake Crucible is insane. Huge card. Rallier gets played because it can enable Waste -> Rallier -> Waste. It's just a one shot, and occasionally can grab other permanents. Recurring Wasteland every turn? Yes please.

Dies to removal is fine. Run Volrath's Stronghold. Or be a weirdo and run Haunted Fengraf. Some decks (Aggro Loam actually) don't always want to always dredge and cast Loam every turn, so freeing up 2 mana to still Waste is nice. Punishing Fire costs 2 mana, so that's a good trade. And they don't want to run Crucible because it's effectively Loam #3, and you can't search it out...but now you can run 2 Loam, 3 Crucible via GSZ. Getting Loams extracted doesn't hurt as bad anymore.

Maverick is in the same boat, they don't want to run Loam, but they're on a partial mana denial plan. Thalia + Loam? Nah. Crucible itself is messy because, again, singleton artifact. But they do run 4x GSZ, so now they can run 4x Crucible and Wastelock as well.

Either deck can utilize Cabal Pit recursion, fetchable with Knight. Speaking of, sac land with Knight, grab a fetch and use it, play the fetch with Crucible, fetch again. Lots of plays get opened up with this guy.

[mistercakes]

it's also pretty good with horizon canopy.

[Soldier of Fortune]

I feel like this card not not being named "Magus of the Crucible" is a missed opportunity. Also, the art is terrible. Cool card though.

[Philipp2293]

This card looks really good, I consider rebuilding my Maverick to give it a shot.

[Scott]

I feel like this card not not being named "Magus of the Crucible" is a missed opportunity. Also, the art is terrible. Cool card though.

Guy reminds me of Natural Order green man. "What have I done"

http://i.imgur.com/sw8JfSv.jpg http://magiccards.info/scans/en/po/101.jpg

[ReAnimator]

I feel like this card not not being named "Magus of the Crucible" is a missed opportunity. Also, the art is terrible. Cool card though.


Agreed on the name, but this is just a promo version, the real art might be less crappy.

[Darkenslight]

The Planeswalker deck Bolas seems stupid.

http://i.imgur.com/fl5xkcb.png

So that's

Bolas the Deceiver :5: :u: :b: :r:
Bolas 'walker
{+3}: Each opponent loses 3 life unless he or she sacxrifices a permanent or discards a card.
{-3}: Destroy target creature. Draw a card.
{-11}: ~ deals 7 to each opponent. Draw 7.
{unknown)}

[mistercakes]

Aren't all of the magus cards human? Happy to see a new creature that isn't human.

[Bosque]

Aren't all of the magus cards human? Happy to see a new creature that isn't human.

Sad it isn't human actually as Cavern on human is good for a lot of cards, on naga though? Not so much.

[mistercakes]

That's my point. I don't want a reusable wasteland in dnt.

[Undomian]

That's my point. I don't want a reusable wasteland in dnt.

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/mm/316.jpg

[MaximumC]

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/mm/316.jpg

I always preferred this one

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=3733&type=card

[Barook]

"Fuck Jace in particular"

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DCZ-HF_W0AEquxY.jpg

[Aggro_zombies]

I had hoped for more than a Gainsay, but I expected as much from two mana counters.

[Lemnear]

"Fuck Jace in particular"

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DCZ-HF_W0AEquxY.jpg

Does this mean that Jace is FINALLY done? Could it really be that he becomes the next slave to Bolas?

[Darkenslight]

"Fuck Jace in particular"

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DCZ-HF_W0AEquxY.jpg

This is a cycle of cards that sepcifically interact with 'walker sof the name; for example, Gideon's Defeat is a one-mana combay-exile. If it exiles a Gidfather, though, you gain 5 life.

[Echelon]

Shouldn't "Fuck you, Jace" be every colour but blue..?

At least as far as flavour is concerned.

[Icapica]

Shouldn't "Fuck you, Jace" be every colour but blue..?

At least as far as flavour is concerned.

I think it's kinda flavorful; Bolas is beating Jace with Jace's own type of magic.

Bolas could use other colors too, but he doesn't need to. It's a way for him to show how much more powerful he is.

[TsumiBand]

Shouldn't "Fuck you, Jace" be every colour but blue..?

At least as far as flavour is concerned.

errbody knows you only beat blue with blue

[Claymore]

It will be a defeat X walker cycle, with Jace (counter blue spell), Gideon (exile white attacking creature), and Nissa (destroy a forest or green walker/enchantment) already revealed. Chandra will probably be red creature or player damage, but I wonder what Liliana will be. Discard a black card or destroy a black creature/walker?

[Icapica]

Liliana's:

Sorcery B
Destroy target black creature or black planeswalker. If it was a Liliana planeswalker, it's controller lose 3 life.

http://wx4.sinaimg.cn/mw690/9d895ea2gy1fgms8lnyagj20p00cijs4.jpg

[Gheizen64]

Liliana's:

Sorcery B
Destroy target black creature or black planeswalker. If it was a Liliana planeswalker, it's controller lose 3 life.

http://wx4.sinaimg.cn/mw690/9d895ea2gy1fgms8lnyagj20p00cijs4.jpg

This is probably the most playable of the cycle in legacy, which isn't saying much, but still. Kill DRS, angler, stalker, strix, Liliana, Tezzeret as a fringe case.

[Richard Cheese]

Does this mean that Jace is FINALLY done? Could it really be that he becomes the next slave to Bolas?

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/430/877/271.gif

Come on, you know this is just the setup for a dozen more Jace cards. Prepare your anus for "Jace, Lost Between Worlds", "Jace, Ephemeral Vision", "Jace, the Training Montage", "Jace, the Returned", and "Jace, Triumphant NeuroEmperor".

Of course, that's after a rousing game of "Where in the Multiverse is Jace Beleren?", which will be a great excuse to drag the rest of the superfriends through half a dozen old planes. "He was spotted leaving Tolarian Academy in a car with a pink, white, and ochre flag!"

[Cire]

Of course, that's after a rousing game of "Where in the Multiverse is Jace Beleren?", which will be a great excuse to drag the rest of the superfriends through half a dozen old planes. "He was spotted leaving Tolarian Academy in a car with a pink, white, and ochre flag!"

Jace is literally showing up in the very next set :laugh:

[Barook]

Chandra's Defeat :r:
Instant - Uncommon
~ deals 5 damage to target red creature or red planeswalker. If it was a Chandra planeswalker, you may discard a card. If you do, draw a card.
"Fire? Is that your only trick, Chandra?"

At least they are aware how one-dimensional the Gatewatch is.

[rufus]

...
Of course, that's after a rousing game of "Where in the Multiverse is Jace Beleren?", which will be a great excuse to drag the rest of the superfriends through half a dozen old planes. "He was spotted leaving Tolarian Academy in a car with a pink, white, and ochre flag!"

Don't forget the five-color cycle: visions of Jace, dreams of Jace, rumors of Jace, memories of Jace, and hopes of Jace.

[Lemnear]

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/430/877/271.gif

Come on, you know this is just the setup for a dozen more Jace cards. Prepare your anus for "Jace, Lost Between Worlds", "Jace, Ephemeral Vision", "Jace, the Training Montage", "Jace, the Returned", and "Jace, Triumphant NeuroEmperor".

Of course, that's after a rousing game of "Where in the Multiverse is Jace Beleren?", which will be a great excuse to drag the rest of the superfriends through half a dozen old planes. "He was spotted leaving Tolarian Academy in a car with a pink, white, and ochre flag!"

I should have added something like a "/s" at the end of my post. We already know that he is the Lara Croft for the MtG brand; The Master Chief on the coverpicture for selling mediocre spinoffs. Honestly, Richard, we already saw him being part of the upper next set. Jace all over. Next time as a Planeswalker with an additional supertype

[Barook]

So Eternalize really is Megaembalm - it copies the creature, except it always makes a 4/4 as P/T.

[Gheizen64]

Nic Fit Alert!

https://i.gyazo.com/4b66a7c072272909125edc37412f485a.png

Worse innocent blood!

[Aggro_zombies]

I don't like this invocation frame much, but I legitimately like the way this card looks:

http://mythicspoiler.com/hou/cards/bloodmoon.jpg

[Claymore]

Damnation got an invocation too.

[Dice_Box]

That art... makes me more unhappy that the border is shit.

[rufus]

That art... makes me more unhappy that the border is shit.

Makes me wonder if that's the entire payoff for the 'moving sun' thing.

[Aggro_zombies]

That art... makes me more unhappy that the border is shit.
Which, Damnation's or Blood Moon's? I actually think the border works on the Blood Moon. It's got the right color palette, the gold on the bottom is a nice contrast with the washed-out colors on the rest of the card, and a bunch of crimson and stone makes sense on a card that turns all nonbasics into Mountains.

Now, whether it looks good in foil will be another issue entirely. I actually kinda liked the invocation Spell Pierce until I saw it in person.

[Barook]

http://i.imgur.com/vzLoTVT.jpg

I do wonder if there are good ways to abuse this since a well-placed pump can nuke an entire hand.

Story-wise, Eternalized creatures are Bolas' Magical Terminator Zombie army.

[MorphBerlin]

I really liek the flavour texts of the defeats. Makes me like the Bolas even more

[bruizar]

http://i.imgur.com/vzLoTVT.jpg

I do wonder if there are good ways to abuse this since a well-placed pump can nuke an entire hand.

Story-wise, Eternalized creatures are Bolas' Magical Terminator Zombie army.

Noble Hierarch, Riding the Dilu Horse :) Built in Menace is sweet. Unstable Mutation also does the trick. Or planeswalkers / Kessig Wolf Run type cards if allergic to one off effects and enchantments...

[bruizar]

Composition + art direction fail


I don't like this invocation frame much, but I legitimately like the way this card looks:

http://mythicspoiler.com/hou/cards/bloodmoon.jpg

http://i.tcgplayer.com/105555_200w.jpg

[Darkenslight]

Which, Damnation's or Blood Moon's? I actually think the border works on the Blood Moon. It's got the right color palette, the gold on the bottom is a nice contrast with the washed-out colors on the rest of the card, and a bunch of crimson and stone makes sense on a card that turns all nonbasics into Mountains.

Now, whether it looks good in foil will be another issue entirely. I actually kinda liked the invocation Spell Pierce until I saw it in person.

I've actually warmed on the foiling for the Amonkhet Invocations, for the most part. But that's mostly because they're often cheaper than their original versions. :D

That said, I'm expecting the Blood Moon to really be the onyl one sought after.

[Dice_Box]

Which, Damnation's or Blood Moon's? I actually think the border works on the Blood Moon. It's got the right color palette, the gold on the bottom is a nice contrast with the washed-out colors on the rest of the card, and a bunch of crimson and stone makes sense on a card that turns all nonbasics into Mountains.

Now, whether it looks good in foil will be another issue entirely. I actually kinda liked the invocation Spell Pierce until I saw it in person.
Bloodmoon. I like the biblical touch of the river running red as the the Red moon rises, looking almost like an evening sunset. The art is fantastic. I don't like the boarder.

[Barook]

Bloodmoon. I like the biblical touch of the river running red as the the Red moon rises, looking almost like an evening sunset. The art is fantastic. I don't like the boarder.
You got it all wrong. The red river thing isn't Blood Moon, it's Choke:

http://mythicspoiler.com/hou/cards/choke.jpg

But then again, quite a bit of art feels like it was meant for another card, but recycled for the hell of it, just like Opposition:
http://mythicspoiler.com/hou/cards/opposition.jpg

[Dice_Box]

You got it all wrong. The red river thing isn't Blood Moon, it's Choke:
Of course the river isn't the moon, but look at the art for Bloodmoon as a Catholic: the moon hanging low, the setting of Egyptian imagery and then the horns of a false idol over a blood red river. The whole image is extremely biblical, it's something I could see used in Sunday school when talking about the book of Exodus and the Plagues of Egypt.

That imagery and symbolism is not reproduced in Choke.

[rufus]

...
I do wonder if there are good ways to abuse this since a well-placed pump can nuke an entire hand.


Alas, it seems like winning with infect is just better.

[morgan_coke]

Sunset Pyramid 2
Artifact
Enters the battlefield with 3 brick counters
2, T: remove a brick, draw a card
2, T: Scry 1

It's basically a Jayemdae Tome with the mana costs halved and an extra ability tacked onto it.

That almost seems semi-playable in Legacy? Maybe? Stax/Eldrazi/Tomb/Chalice decks? Might be the best colorless card draw we've ever seen.

[Gheizen64]

Sunset Pyramid 2
Artifact
Enters the battlefield with 3 brick counters
2, T: remove a brick, draw a card
2, T: Scry 1

It's basically a Jayemdae Tome with the mana costs halved and an extra ability tacked onto it.

That almost seems semi-playable in Legacy? Maybe? Stax/Eldrazi/Tomb/Chalice decks? Might be the best colorless card draw we've ever seen.


Coercive portal need 4 to draw infinite cards. This need 4 to draw 1. It's a really good drawing artifact, but coercive portal is still leagues ahead.

[Dice_Box]

I wouldn't put it in Stax not because it's not a fine card, but because I just don't need it. Not since Fair was printed. Rather more lock to go with my tutors over less lock and draw.

[Barook]

http://mythicspoiler.com/hou/cards/boil.jpg

Sweet art, but they're really running out of iconic cards to reprint.

I do wonder how much more it costs to do Masterpiece art compared to normal art. They obviously put way more effort into Masterpiece art looking really good.

[Aggro_zombies]

I could see running the Pyramid in Commander, where it's a little hard to control your Coercive Portals, but in Legacy I think Portal is just better. Chalice decks with Tombs don't usually care that much about up-front investment costs, but not having to spend mana every turn can actually be relevant, especially if it saves you from having to tap a Tomb to be able to cast the spell you drew.

[Darkenslight]

http://i.imgur.com/3N8NLRP.png

DOOMSDAY INVOCATION.

That is all.

[bruizar]

http://mythicspoiler.com/hou/cards/boil.jpg

Sweet art, but they're really running out of iconic cards to reprint.

I do wonder how much more it costs to do Masterpiece art compared to normal art. They obviously put way more effort into Masterpiece art looking really good.

ixalan will not have masterpieces for this reason

[(nameless one)]

http://i.imgur.com/3N8NLRP.png

DOOMSDAY INVOCATION.

That is all.

I wish they would use that art in a normal frame card.

[Ronald Deuce]

http://mythicspoiler.com/hou/cards/bloodmoon.jpg

Blood Moon. It depicts a sun. Not a moon. But it's called Blood Moon.

Perfect.

EDIT: Bruizar, I find myself wondering whether they're not going to have any because they whiffed so hard on the ones for Amonkhet and Hour of Devastation.

If they put them in, I bet they'd all be Legendary Pirates, only instead of a special foiling process, they'd all be stained with spilled Colt 45 from R&D's meetings.

[Barook]

Blood Moon. It depicts a sun. Not a moon. But it's called Blood Moon.

Perfect.
Alot of the invocation arts in this sets don't make alot of sense when you compare the art to the card name they're depicting.

[Aggro_zombies]

They already confirmed there aren't Masterpieces in Ixalan.

To be honest, the Masterpiece idea is cute, but grossly unsustainable. Even if you had access to Reserved List cards, most of them aren't valuable enough or played often enough to make them attractive as collector's items (which is what the Masterpieces are). The various Masters sets have mined out a lot of the valuable, scarce cards in Modern, and Masters 25 or whatever it's called will probably hit a lot of the outstanding valuable, non-RL cards in Legacy (like Port). The fact that the Masterpieces in AHK and HOU are so all over the map is a sign that it's hard to choose cards that fit a theme but are also valuable as collectibles.

[Barook]

Could you have guessed the card based on the art alone? (https://i.redd.it/ms5mvq3xwh4z.png)

But I do like the Terminator/Necron look of Bolas' zombie army. Considering he also got the Planar Bridge technology stolen from Kaladesh, he's probably waging war on the Multiverse now with his brand new army.

[bruizar]

They already confirmed there aren't Masterpieces in Ixalan.

To be honest, the Masterpiece idea is cute, but grossly unsustainable. Even if you had access to Reserved List cards, most of them aren't valuable enough or played often enough to make them attractive as collector's items (which is what the Masterpieces are). The various Masters sets have mined out a lot of the valuable, scarce cards in Modern, and Masters 25 or whatever it's called will probably hit a lot of the outstanding valuable, non-RL cards in Legacy (like Port). The fact that the Masterpieces in AHK and HOU are so all over the map is a sign that it's hard to choose cards that fit a theme but are also valuable as collectibles.

We dont even care about the valuable cards as masterpieces because we already own the original foils. What they should have done is give a shooting star foiling / old layout on cards like Fatal Push, Gitaxian Probe, Small Pox, Gurmag Angler, Young Pyromancer, Toxic Deluge, Forked Bolt, Ponder, Abrupt Decay, Kolaghan's Command, etcetera etcetera. That would have made them much more collectible for eternal players, who so happen to have all the moneyz

[Ronald Deuce]

We dont even care about the valuable cards as masterpieces because we already own the original foils. What they should have done is give a shooting star foiling / old layout on cards like Fatal Push, Gitaxian Probe, Small Pox, Gurmag Angler, Young Pyromancer, Toxic Deluge, Forked Bolt, Ponder, Abrupt Decay, Kolaghan's Command, etcetera etcetera. That would have made them much more collectible for eternal players, who so happen to have all the moneyz

This. I'm crusty, sift through crusty tomes when I have the (rare) chance, and what got me into Magic in the first place was that the cards looked like something out of a crusty tome. I'm not everybody, and I don't claim to represent everybody, but Magic: the Comicbooking is not what I want to see more. Give me back my Sarpadian Empires.

I don't even have much money (paid for my duals in cards). But nothing about Masterpieces interests me except the potential to get more duals.

[Aggro_zombies]

We dont even care about the valuable cards as masterpieces because we already own the original foils. What they should have done is give a shooting star foiling / old layout on cards like Fatal Push, Gitaxian Probe, Small Pox, Gurmag Angler, Young Pyromancer, Toxic Deluge, Forked Bolt, Ponder, Abrupt Decay, Kolaghan's Command, etcetera etcetera. That would have made them much more collectible for eternal players, who so happen to have all the moneyz
You might not, but plenty of people do - and not just the typical Magic day traders, either. There are plenty of players who will open a Masterpiece in a pack and that will be their first copy of that card because they only play Standard, or they only draft, or they only play sometimes and only show up to play in Prereleases, or they're kids, or whatever.

For these players, opening a card that "everyone knows" is valuable, only to find out that it kind of isn't because the wider market isn't pushing a lot of demand for Masterpiece Divert or whatever, is kind of a shitty experience. It's especially shitty when someone else in your prerelease opens an actually valuable one and the delta in prices is huge. A lot of the Masterpieces for the last two sets only have value at all because of scarcity.

Eternal players might have a ton of money, but they don't spend it. The formats are so static and the expensive cards have been out of print so long that your money basically doesn't matter because you throw it around so infrequently. Standard players, EDH players, casual players...these are the players where the real money is. Making Masterpieces these guys will like is going to provide the best return on investment for Wizards.

[Koby]

Making good rares with decent artwork has better returns than printing Ms paint doodles on foil cardstock, and WotC knows it. They're simply too frugal to pay for good development of those cards because that would mean full time employees. That's a cost the company isn't willing to bear.

[ESG]

Eternal players might have a ton of money, but they don't spend it. The formats are so static and the expensive cards have been out of print so long that your money basically doesn't matter because you throw it around so infrequently.

This is false. Please visit the Pimp Legacy Decks thread or look up any Vintage or Old-School events. Money is absolutely being spent. By the truckload.

[bruizar]

You might not, but plenty of people do - and not just the typical Magic day traders, either. There are plenty of players who will open a Masterpiece in a pack and that will be their first copy of that card because they only play Standard, or they only draft, or they only play sometimes and only show up to play in Prereleases, or they're kids, or whatever.

For these players, opening a card that "everyone knows" is valuable, only to find out that it kind of isn't because the wider market isn't pushing a lot of demand for Masterpiece Divert or whatever, is kind of a shitty experience. It's especially shitty when someone else in your prerelease opens an actually valuable one and the delta in prices is huge. A lot of the Masterpieces for the last two sets only have value at all because of scarcity.

Eternal players might have a ton of money, but they don't spend it. The formats are so static and the expensive cards have been out of print so long that your money basically doesn't matter because you throw it around so infrequently. Standard players, EDH players, casual players...these are the players where the real money is. Making Masterpieces these guys will like is going to provide the best return on investment for Wizards.

Pimping is mostly reserved for eternal players and commander players. If you're going to make desirable cards, they have to cater to that crowd. I don't believe the casual crowd is the crowd you can sell 500 euro force of wills to. Sure, they might get excited by opening one, but that's not going to turn them into eternal players (because they need 3 more of them, plus a ton of other expensive cards) nor is that wizards' goal.

The eternal pimp's mantra is "Give me consistency and I will give you my money". This is in direct opposition with wizards' goals, since once a player is 'done' finishing his collection, he or she will no longer spend a lot of money. There are so many examples of WOTC not finishing cycles properly, and I suspect them doing so purposely. One example is the original Swords of X and Y. Another example is basic lands:

http://static.starcitygames.com/sales/cardscans/MAGPRM/forestarenafoilbeta.jpghttp://static.starcitygames.com/sales/cardscans/MAGPRM/islandarenafoilbeta.jpg
The other 3 are missing..

ARENA foil Ice Age basics exist, but ARENA foil Ice Age Snow-Covered basics are missing... The list goes on..


The reason why Masterpieces were received so poorly is simply because they deviated from the layout of Zendikar expeditions. Your deck just becomes an inconsistent pile if you're running invocations alongside inventions and expeditions. I've got several thousand euros in expeditions and some masterpieces, so I've got skin in the game. They pushed the limits with the invention border. I tried to like them, but they killed it with the amonkhet frame.

All cards from all master series are to be interpreted as one set. It's worth noting that there is no other set that has cards with two types of layouts except Future Sight, and there is no set that has three different types of layouts in it, let alone one that violates rules like having no black or white border around the card. (Split card/transform-variations don't count as they serve a game mechanic).

If they want to make premium versions for a specialized high revenue audience, I really don't mind the power of the card, rather the exclusivity and playability of it. Judge reward Elesh-Norn is a great example of this. The phyrexian language adds to the flavor of the card. They tried to do the same with Amonkhet, but failed at doing so because the text needed to stay readable as they commissioned new artwork. But like I said, even a Forked Bolt could get me excited if properly pimped. It's a minor card with a modern frame that does not have a high cost printing yet, it has great utility and is often reserved for specific decks or sideboards. MTG cards can't all be Snapcaster Mages, Fetchlands or Liliana of the Veils, but that doesn't mean you can't make them highly sought after.

[tescrin]

http://i.imgur.com/vzLoTVT.jpg

I do wonder if there are good ways to abuse this since a well-placed pump can nuke an entire hand.

Story-wise, Eternalized creatures are Bolas' Magical Terminator Zombie army.

I didn't read every post, but I mean.. equips? He has evasion which is good for equips anyway, but turning SoFaI into a 5-for-0 in a swing is.. pretty good!

[Noctalor]

They already confirmed there aren't Masterpieces in Ixalan.

To be honest, the Masterpiece idea is cute, but grossly unsustainable. Even if you had access to Reserved List cards, most of them aren't valuable enough or played often enough to make them attractive as collector's items (which is what the Masterpieces are). The various Masters sets have mined out a lot of the valuable, scarce cards in Modern, and Masters 25 or whatever it's called will probably hit a lot of the outstanding valuable, non-RL cards in Legacy (like Port). The fact that the Masterpieces in AHK and HOU are so all over the map is a sign that it's hard to choose cards that fit a theme but are also valuable as collectibles.

Nah, they just had to print a smaller number of them per set

[mistercakes]

it looks like the masterpiece cards in this set are just designed for EDH players to crack packs. do they even do that? capsize? forbid? wtf is going on. it almost feels like a bulk rare.

[Hopo]

I didn't read every post, but I mean.. equips? He has evasion which is good for equips anyway, but turning SoFaI into a 5-for-0 in a swing is.. pretty good!

That would make great Needle Specter #5 or more.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=153474&type=card

[jandax]

You might not, but plenty of people do - and not just the typical Magic day traders, either. There are plenty of players who will open a Masterpiece in a pack and that will be their first copy of that card because they only play Standard, or they only draft, or they only play sometimes and only show up to play in Prereleases, or they're kids, or whatever.

For these players, opening a card that "everyone knows" is valuable, only to find out that it kind of isn't because the wider market isn't pushing a lot of demand for Masterpiece Divert or whatever, is kind of a shitty experience. It's especially shitty when someone else in your prerelease opens an actually valuable one and the delta in prices is huge. A lot of the Masterpieces for the last two sets only have value at all because of scarcity.

Eternal players might have a ton of money, but they don't spend it. The formats are so static and the expensive cards have been out of print so long that your money basically doesn't matter because you throw it around so infrequently. Standard players, EDH players, casual players...these are the players where the real money is. Making Masterpieces these guys will like is going to provide the best return on investment for Wizards.
There is the rub. In order for us ( the eternal players) to have a our game, we NEED all those standard and limited kids coming into the game. That keeps wotc in business. There's no real right for us to gripe that they don't throw us a bone often enough. Not saying you or anyone was complaining here and now, in a meta sense we're just making the best of the game we love, standard players and eternal players alike

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[Claymore]

Thoughtseize invocation is pretty good too.

[Cire]

I'm disappointed that eternalize wasn't indestructible embalm like people were guessing :/ - but yeah - it's boring.

That said - I'm loving the defeat cards - glad the Gatewatch has actually lost after winning everything.

And finally:

Dwane, "the Rock" Johnson the card:

The Scorpion God 3BR
Legendary Creature - God
Whenever a creature with a -1/-1 counter on it dies, draw a card.
1BR: Put a -1/-1 counter on another target creature.
When The Scorpion God dies, return it to its owner's hand at the beginning of the next end step.
6/5

[H]

That said - I'm loving the defeat cards - glad the Gatewatch has actually lost after winning everything.


Me too. I just wish Bolas wasn't painted as such a hand-wringingly "evil" character. Or at least, seemingly so, I can't read the actual stories because they are so poorly written (yes, I am a literary snob).

Moral certainty is a pestilence.

[MaximumC]

That would make great Needle Specter #5 or more.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=153474&type=card

You know, I thought exactly the same thing when I saw the card. And, of course, the next thought is that no one plays Needle Specter, so...

But, honestly, I like the idea of a 2B creature with this ability way more than I like it on a 1BB. Flying is better evasion, but the casting cost is universes different. At 1BB you're not disrupting quickly enough without a Dark Ritual. At 2B you very well might be able to deploy it on turn 2 with some acceleration, and in a deck that only has to splash black.

I'm not optimistic about this card, but I can see reasons why he might actually get there when Needler never did.


Me too. I just wish Bolas wasn't painted as such a hand-wringingly "evil" character. Or at least, seemingly so, I can't read the actual stories because they are so poorly written (yes, I am a literary snob).

Moral certainty is a pestilence.

I mean, I don't see how you portray a character whose modius operendi has recently been "Find a Universe to Eat" as being sympathetic. Does he have a clutch of baby bolas's somewhere?

[H]

I mean, I don't see how you portray a character whose modius operendi has recently been "Find a Universe to Eat" as being sympathetic. Does he have a clutch of baby bolas's somewhere?

Well, I mean, that's the point, you can't. The story is devised to evoke moral certainty. That is why the story holds zero interest to me.

[Cire]

I don't really care about the moral certainty - but I was/am bitter that all three Eldrazi Titans were so easy to defeat. The other big threats (Bolas and Phyrexia) should at least make them work for it.

[bruizar]

I don't really care about the moral certainty - but I was/am bitter that all three Eldrazi Titans were so easy to defeat. The other big threats (Bolas and Phyrexia) should at least make them work for it.

They should pull an Aeris and just kill one pw of the guildpact off. Then 6 years later use a revive.

Chandra, Infernal Climax
RRR
-1: Burn
+1: Burn
-10: Sacrifice Chandra, rip it to shreds, destroy target PLAYER!

[tescrin]

That would make great Needle Specter #5 or more.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=153474&type=card

Look, Needle Specter has been running rampant in legacy for years :laugh:

[good to know that he's worse than I thought]

[Cire]

They should pull an Aeris and just kill one pw of the guildpact off. Then 6 years later use a revive.

Chandra, Infernal Climax
RRR
-1: Burn
+1: Burn
-10: Sacrifice Chandra, rip it to shreds, destroy target PLAYER!

My hope is that the next guildwatch cards aregoing to be wildly different than their other cards because of their defeat. . . Jace is apparently a castaway in Ixian doing illusion magic; maybe Gideon will no longer turn into an indestructible fighter; maybe Chandra's fire has gone out; etc.

[MaximumC]

Look, Needle Specter has been running rampant in legacy for years :laugh:

[good to know that he's worse than I thought]

It is, but don't neglect the fact that the new dork is 2B. I think that's got upside specifically because this kind of effect is so much better when it happens earlier in the game. If you could consistently resolve this effect on turn 1 with pump, that's game.

Does it have enough upside to make this new one playable...? Probably not, honestly, but it's something.

[H]

I don't really care about the moral certainty - but I was/am bitter that all three Eldrazi Titans were so easy to defeat. The other big threats (Bolas and Phyrexia) should at least make them work for it.

That's fine, I'm not condemning people for reading it really. But for me that is the least interesting sort of story to tell.

Good guys that are good, just because.

Bad guys that are bad, just because.

I want stories that question and lead me to question. Anything else really isn't worth my time. I want complexity. That's why I play Magic and not checkers.

[Ace/Homebrew]

To be fair, WotC isn't trying to cater to you H. :tongue:

They are putting story content on the web for free. And you're getting what you paid for.
I cannot read that garbage either...

[MaximumC]

That's fine, I'm not condemning people for reading it really. But for me that is the least interesting sort of story to tell.

Good guys that are good, just because.

Bad guys that are bad, just because.

I want stories that question and lead me to question. Anything else really isn't worth my time. I want complexity. That's why I play Magic and not checkers.

You know, I think WotC's storytelling is pretty much high fantasy schlock, but let's give them a LITTLE credit. The characters do have some motivation. It's not "just because."

Good Guys:

Gideon is a Lawful Good paladin, so, well, he's just always going try to do the good thing. He's the only 1-dimensional character of the bunch, and even so WotC tries to give him a bit of an arc with respect to his relationships with Gods and his concern about his ultimate destiny. I think they're going for "tragic hero" here, and he's going to refuse to change even as he needs to, getting himself killed in the process.

Jace, Chandra, and Nissa all really came together because the Eldrazi made them pee their pants and they really want to work together against threats of that magnitude. This works for them, I think, at least in the short term.

Liliana has a very detailed motivation for working with the others, since as Black, she has least reason to do it. Help killing her demons, basically. I'm interested to see where they take her once she accomplishes that goal, but for now its fine.

Bad Guys:

Phyrexians: An experimental AI gone wrong, basically. They were an arm of Yawgmoth being used to reshape the universe in his idea of perfection, but when he died, his system just ran amok. Think "grey goo." I'm not a fan of the "oil" being the way it spreads, but beyond that, they're fine.

Bolas: He wants his Old Walker power back -- who can blame him -- and all that WotC has come up with as far as a way he can do this is eating planes. (Alara, Amonkhet, etc). Contrived, maybe, but at least it's consistent - Eldrazi fuel their nightmare tummies by eating them, so there's some kind of energy there to be had. And, sure, he has a sadistic streak, but even that kind of makes sense. He was a lord of Dominara back in the old days -- I imagine like the brutal early human cultures like Assyria -- and since then he's been in a constant fight with people who want to banish his spirit from his body or make him a not-God or whatever.

Eldrazi: They eat worlds to sustain themselves, apparently. I say apparently because they seem to be very bad and slow at this so far. I wish Shadows had resolved with Emrakul having dinner (showing what they can actually do) and then wandering off into the Blind Eternities. Nevertheless, the motivation seems clear: food.


To be fair, WotC isn't trying to cater to you H. :tongue:

They are putting story content on the web for free. And you're getting what you paid for.
I cannot read that garbage either...

Comes and goes. The prior stories were pretty bad, but the Amonkhet one actually is not terrible.

[Finn]

I think the new frames are classy. Legacy though, so I don't actually care.

[H]

To be fair, WotC isn't trying to cater to you H. :tongue:

You should all be glad about that, :wink:


They are putting story content on the web for free. And you're getting what you paid for.
I cannot read that garbage either...

Oh, no doubt about that, although technically we are all paying for it by buying product, :rolleyes:


You know, I think WotC's storytelling is pretty much high fantasy schlock, but let's give them a LITTLE credit. The characters do have some motivation. It's not "just because."

Alright, I mean, as I said, there is no way I would ever have read through enough of it to find all that out, so I appreciate your condensing it.

I mean, I actually like the Phyrexians and their motivations, I even read those books, all that time ago. But the rest of the "bad guys" are pretty one dimensional. It's not specifically bad, in the overt sense, but it sure isn't good to me in any way.

But worse are "good" guys who are just good because the other guys are bad. I mean, obviously devouring worlds is bad, so obviously we must stop them, so obviously we are the good guys. I mean, sure, that makes sense, but there is nothing there that compels me. There is nothing there at has me curious, or interested. It's just a case of "how will the good guys pull it off this time!"

I am old and I've read tons of that in my time, I am through with it. I can read LotR for that and the writing quality is, conservatively estimated, a zillion times better than what Wizards would ever make. Reading a story that isn't very interesting, isn't compelling and isn't even well written is pretty much not anything I'm interested in devoting my limited free time to.

[MaximumC]

I can read LotR for that and the writing quality is, conservatively estimated, a zillion times better than what Wizards would ever make.

Comparing literally anything in the fantasy genre to Lord of the Rings is just asking for trouble. ;)

[H]

Comparing literally anything in the fantasy genre to Lord of the Rings is just asking for trouble. ;)

There are things that can compare, depending on what you are looking for. A Song of Ice and Fire (before Martin just lost his way) and The Price of Nothing (and Aspect Emperor) do a pretty good job painting rich worlds that are moralistically more complex than LotR. Of course that's the point though, you aren't really going to outdo Tolkien at his own game, best to set up shop in the next town over.

I get that part of the role of fantasy is the allure of the fantastic moral certainty, I'm just saying that simplistic things like that don't really appeal to me in my old age.

I get it, I just don't really like it.

Of course, a "darker," more "realistic" (i.e. moralistically complex) story line would not appeal to the vast majority of Magic players though, so it's not as if I can really fault them for the contrived, slap-stick plots and so the relatively poor quality of writing.

[tescrin]

Malazan is also supposed to be pretty good; though I hear the first book is a slog.

[Undomian]

Now THIS is a sweet card. Dark Depths anyone?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DCtUXSvUIAArDYV.png

[H]

Malazan is also supposed to be pretty good; though I hear the first book is a slog.

Yeah, I was going to mention that too, but damned if I could ever get through that thing, even though I tried many times.

EDIT:


Now THIS is a sweet card. Dark Depths anyone?

Wow.

Not sure that is actually good, but it sure is interesting...

[Claymore]

Certainly interesting. Very obvious interaction with dark depths. In RG Lands you can copy Mox Diamond (hah), but more seriously can copy Exploration for the land drop, then copy Maze of Ith to hold off attacks. Or copy opposing creatures (goyf, DRS, Delver, Knight Reliquary) to trade/get utility (mother of runes your Marit Lage past defenders), or just copy a creature, block, then revert to a land.

Can copy a Show and Tell card, and as long as its not Omniscience you can likely swing next turn.

And uh, what happens when Thespian's Stage copies the Mirror copying a land?

Very mana intensive and plays with Dark Depths. Sounds like a Lands card.

Of note is that it can only be activated once per turn.

Edit: You could use it along with Culling Scales. When you've wiped the rest of the board, target the mirror with Scales, then response copy a land. Ability fizzles.

[Dice_Box]

"Until end of turn" kills a lot of its use.

[Crimhead]

And uh, what happens when Thespian's Stage copies the Mirror copying a land?

Only printed characteristics are copyable. Stage would become a Mirage Mirror.

[morgan_coke]

Oketra's Last Mercy would actually be a decently playable card if it was an instant, but Sorcery speed makes it a sad panda.

[Scott]

It's a shame that it essentially costs :5: (which I suppose is understandable in a design/cost sense given that it hits more than just lands, and who knows, maybe it'll find a different use), because it might've been cool in a Dark Depths shell with Ancient Stirrings.

[MaximumC]

"Until end of turn" kills a lot of its use.

Well, no, I think it's more of a feature than a bug. It can copy Smokestack for one-sided hilarity, for example.

Card is more expensive than other things that do it, but it combos with a LOT of powerful things:

Dark Depths
Phyrexian Dreadnought
Time Vault
Smokestack

And it still gives you a clone effect for not just creatures but also wasteland, equipment, etc...

It's really amazingly versatile. Is that going to be enough to overlook the fact that it costs 3 to put out and 2 to activate?


Oketra's Last Mercy would actually be a decently playable card if it was an instant, but Sorcery speed makes it a sad panda.

Nah card sucks. Life gain is good when it's tacked onto other useful effects because it lets you get ahead while basically undoing a turn or two of your opponent's attack. (See Sphinx Rev, Thragtusk). It's really bad when it costs you a card that is NOT developing your board in order just to gain life. It's really, REALLY bad when not only does it cost you a card, but it also costs you the tempo you were trying to gain life to gain in the first place.

I mean, compare it to Bontu Does Dallas. That card has a similar mechanic, but at least it can put your opponent's dorks permanently in the graveyard when it resolves. You might lose tempo, but they lost permanents. This white version doesn't even do that -- life gain is practically ONLY tempo, and giving up that tempo in return means the card is doing precisely the opposite of what you want.

Nor do I see this alongside Ad Naseum or Griselbrand, b'c we have cheaper cards or that effect.

[Cire]

Oketra's Last Mercy destroys that theory of mine that the "last" cards would help trigger the gods themselves.

[Koby]

Smokestack


Good discussion, but this one unfortunately doesn't work. There's no method to copy Smokestack and have it trigger to add Soot counters or sacrifice triggers.

[Darkenslight]

It's a shame that it essentially costs :5: (which I suppose is understandable in a design/cost sense given that it hits more than just lands, and who knows, maybe it'll find a different use), because it might've been cool in a Dark Depths shell with Ancient Stirrings.

You can also do fun tricks like copying Phyrexian Dreadnought or Death's Shadow.

[morgan_coke]

Nah card sucks. Life gain is good when it's tacked onto other useful effects because it lets you get ahead while basically undoing a turn or two of your opponent's attack. (See Sphinx Rev, Thragtusk). It's really bad when it costs you a card that is NOT developing your board in order just to gain life. It's really, REALLY bad when not only does it cost you a card, but it also costs you the tempo you were trying to gain life to gain in the first place.

I mean, compare it to Bontu Does Dallas. That card has a similar mechanic, but at least it can put your opponent's dorks permanently in the graveyard when it resolves. You might lose tempo, but they lost permanents. This white version doesn't even do that -- life gain is practically ONLY tempo, and giving up that tempo in return means the card is doing precisely the opposite of what you want.

Nor do I see this alongside Ad Naseum or Griselbrand, b'c we have cheaper cards or that effect.

As an Instant it would be an amazing sideboard card against Burn or Tendrils. You're really underestimating the value of "gain 15 life" in one card, in specific decks against certain plans they are otherwise weak to. On turn 3-4 it basically retro counters a burn decks entire graveyard, and you still get land drops. That's not something Burn, specifically, can recover from. In some shells, it's almost playable as a Sorcery for that reason alone.

[Zombie]

There are things that can compare, depending on what you are looking for. A Song of Ice and Fire (before Martin just lost his way) and The Price of Nothing (and Aspect Emperor) do a pretty good job painting rich worlds that are moralistically more complex than LotR. Of course that's the point though, you aren't really going to outdo Tolkien at his own game, best to set up shop in the next town over.

I get that part of the role of fantasy is the allure of the fantastic moral certainty, I'm just saying that simplistic things like that don't really appeal to me in my old age.

I get it, I just don't really like it.

Of course, a "darker," more "realistic" (i.e. moralistically complex) story line would not appeal to the vast majority of Magic players though, so it's not as if I can really fault them for the contrived, slap-stick plots and so the relatively poor quality of writing.

The Kingkiller Chronicle by Patrick Rothfuss is great as well. What I've read of Robin Hobb's Soldier Son trilogy was good too.

[Barook]

Mirror is an amazing card and my favorite from the spoiled cards so far.

Aside from shenanigans with Time Vault and Dark Depths, I think people undervalue it as a flexible answer to S&T. If they can't win right of the bat, you're going to copy their card and wreck them.

There are probably more ways to abuse this.

[tescrin]

Honestly I think it's an anti-Depths anti-S&T card. Someone gets their huge obnoxious thing into play, you copy it and swing first.

@Dice
It doesn't matter if it's EoT if you copy Depths as you'll sac and create the token. Also doesn't matter if you copy Emmy and swing as you'll wipe their board. Similar could be said about swinging/drawing with griselbrand, as they'll either trade or you'll have a board stall as you both continuously gain/lose 7. Seems fine. It really feels like the anti-S&T colorless card the guy wanted in the other thread haha.

[maharis]

"Until end of turn" kills a lot of its use.

But not it's main use, which is copying Dark Depths.

I don't think this slots into an existing Depths deck as is, but it is a two-card game-over combo and isn't that much more costly than Stage.

I also think you can net mana off this even with the activation cost with Cloudpost or Metalworker which is something to keep an eye on.

[Dice_Box]

@Dice
It doesn't matter if it's EoT if you copy Depths as you'll sac and create the token.
I get that, my comment was on the idea that you would copy Maze, Mox Diamond (What?) and Exploration for an advantage from each. This card would be much stronger in Lands if it persisted. I can see its use outside of Lands, but this card is not something I would cut another card in Lands to use.

[MaximumC]

But not it's main use, which is copying Dark Depths.

I don't think this slots into an existing Depths deck as is, but it is a two-card game-over combo and isn't that much more costly than Stage.


Yeah, why do we want to let Force of Will AND Ancient Grudge interact with Dark Depths combo again?

[rufus]

...
Of note is that it can only be activated once per turn.
....


You can stack activations and it can target itself, though that's mostly not going to do much.

Once in play, you could copy Basalt Monolith/Grim Monolith and net 1 mana.

Copy Lodestone Golem or chalice in a prison deck.

Pretty fun with Mirror of Fate.

I think it's too mana intensive to see lots of use in legacy. Maybe some kind of Tron thing?

[maharis]

Yeah, why do we want to let Force of Will AND Ancient Grudge interact with Dark Depths combo again?

Stage is still best but this can replace hexmage as an alternative plan. That also opens the combo up to decks in any color.

[Echelon]

Mirage Mirror seems like a fun hatecard to me. Can screw over Show and Tell big time, or copy Merit Lage to threaten w/ a deadly backswing. Turn into your opponents' Leovold when they Brainstorm, that type of thing.

Probably too narrow though.

Question: If you turn the Mirror into a Delver of Secrets on your opponents' end step and manage to flip it to an Insectile Abberation, does it turn back to Mirror at end of the turn or does it stay an Abberation indefinetely?

[Barook]

Question: If you turn the Mirror into a Delver of Secrets on your opponents' end step and manage to flip it to an Insectile Abberation, does it turn back to Mirror at end of the turn or does it stay an Abberation indefinetely?
"until end of turn" - that doesn't work EoT, as the effect definitely stops, no matter what. You can't cheat on that like with "at the beginning of your end step"-abilities.

[Zombie]

Question: If you turn the Mirror into a Delver of Secrets on your opponents' end step and manage to flip it to an Insectile Abberation, does it turn back to Mirror at end of the turn or does it stay an Abberation indefinetely?

AFAIK the answer is: Not a two-faced card, can't transform.

[Gheizen64]

Why are you guys talking about a card that need 5 and another card to do anything?

Hexmage is BB and it's a fringe card even with depths. I concede that's is a semi-answer to SnT that isn't outright uncastable on its own, but still.

[Hopo]

Why are you guys talking about a card that need 5 and another card to do anything?


The appeal comes from the fact that the "another card" can be pretty much anything, even your opponent's.

Also, not a fan of excessively preposterous descriptions like the one I quoted. Imagine people asking why everybody is talking about Brainstorm that needs specific mana as well as cards in your hand and library in specific order to do anything.

[Barook]

Not Legacy-playable, but kinda nifty with Aggravated Assault (that's an invocation - LOL WUT):

Neheb, the Eternal :3::r::r:
Legendary Creature - Zombie Minotaur Warrior
Afflict 3 (Whenever this creature becomes blocked, defending player loses 3 life.)
At the beginning of your postcombat main phase, add :r: to your mana pool for each 1 life your opponents have lost this turn.
4/6

[Hopo]

You know, I thought exactly the same thing when I saw the card. And, of course, the next thought is that no one plays Needle Specter, so...

But, honestly, I like the idea of a 2B creature with this ability way more than I like it on a 1BB. Flying is better evasion, but the casting cost is universes different. At 1BB you're not disrupting quickly enough without a Dark Ritual. At 2B you very well might be able to deploy it on turn 2 with some acceleration, and in a deck that only has to splash black.



The best thing I ever came up with Needle Specter was Invigorate. It was sweet but infect still remains the best Invigorate deck.

[Darkenslight]

Why are you guys talking about a card that need 5 and another card to do anything?

Hexmage is BB and it's a fringe card even with depths. I concede that's is a semi-answer to SnT that isn't outright uncastable on its own, but still.

That's really the point; it's a flexible answer to a number of prominent decks - for example, it can copy any non-'walker permanent. That has applications against most decks; for example, it can copy either DD or the Marit Lage token. It can copy your opponent's Tasigur; it can copy your opponent's Sneak Attack, Gris or Emrakul. It's flexible enough that it warrants some testing in decks that are threat-light, or as an extra combo piece.

[Hanni]

The best thing I ever came up with Needle Specter was Invigorate. It was sweet but infect still remains the best Invigorate deck.

Turn 1 Noble Hierarch into a turn 2 Specter seems more viable than Invigorate. I'd also rather have Unstable Mutation or Rancor instead of Invigorate in a deck like that.

[Di]

Scavenger Grounds
Land - Desert
Rare
T: Add {C} to your mana pool.
2, T, sacrifice a Desert: Exile all cards in all graveyards.


This land is incredible.

[Claymore]

Interesting that its reusable. We'll have to see what other deserts are released. I know there's the Desert cyclers.

[PirateKing]

This land is incredible.
As a struggling Reanimator player, I agree, we do need more ways to hate on graveyards :cry:

[maharis]

The appeal comes from the fact that the "another card" can be pretty much anything, even your opponent's.

Also, not a fan of excessively preposterous descriptions like the one I quoted. Imagine people asking why everybody is talking about Brainstorm that needs specific mana as well as cards in your hand and library in specific order to do anything.

If Brainstorm never existed but was released tomorrow people on this board would be like "1/10, terrible without a fetchland so it's really two mana, huge tempo loss if you play it in response to hand disruption, serum visions is better at flipping delver"

[morgan_coke]

If Brainstorm never existed but was released tomorrow people on this board would be like "1/10, terrible without a fetchland so it's really two mana, huge tempo loss if you play it in response to hand disruption, serum visions is better at flipping delver"

That was pretty much the reaction to it when it came out in Ice Age.

[ReAnimator]

That was pretty much the reaction to it when it came out in Ice Age.

To be fair, no one knew Necro was good then either, and everyone thought Jesters Cap was incredible.

[Richard Cheese]

That was pretty much the reaction to it when it came out in Ice Age.

To be fair, there weren't many good shuffle effects (especially not mana-fixing ones), and Demonic Consultation/Necro were just better options.

[Barook]

This land is incredible.
Is it? Really? I just don't see it.

It's uncounterable and taps for mana, which are definite pluspoints. However, it effectively costs 3 mana to activate and nukes your GY as well, so recursion options are rather limited as it will eat potential stuff you want to bring back. It also doesn't replace itself, unlike Relic of Progenitus.

It's playable, but it doesn't get me excited.

[Undomian]

They're really going off with printing cards to interact with Dark Depths in this set...
https://images1.mtggoldfish.com/uploads/6715596e-4f26-4e31-a6bc-a3be77dc5c6c/Solemnity%20%5BHOU%5D.png

[Darkenslight]

New hate cards over at MTG Goldfish:

https://images1.mtggoldfish.com/uploads/a115db9d-7ee6-4493-8c31-737a77078932/Crook%20of%20Condemnation%20%5BHOU%5D.png

https://images1.mtggoldfish.com/uploads/6715596e-4f26-4e31-a6bc-a3be77dc5c6c/Solemnity%20%5BHOU%5D.png

[CptHaddock]

New hate cards over at MTG Goldfish:

https://images1.mtggoldfish.com/uploads/a115db9d-7ee6-4493-8c31-737a77078932/Crook%20of%20Condemnation%20%5BHOU%5D.png


???

Is relic too powerful for standard?

[Barook]

New hate cards over at MTG Goldfish:

https://images1.mtggoldfish.com/uploads/a115db9d-7ee6-4493-8c31-737a77078932/Crook%20of%20Condemnation%20%5BHOU%5D.png

https://images1.mtggoldfish.com/uploads/6715596e-4f26-4e31-a6bc-a3be77dc5c6c/Solemnity%20%5BHOU%5D.png
A bit late to bring out the GY hate for Standard. Yet worse than Relic.

Aside from DD, Solemnity also is another combo piece for Melira combo and a hatecard for Infect to boot.

How does Solemnity and Cumulative Upkeep interact? Does the permanent get sacrificed because the cost can't be paid? Or can you enjoy your free infinite Glacial Chasm?

[apple713]

Is it? Really? I just don't see it.

It's uncounterable and taps for mana, which are definite pluspoints. However, it effectively costs 3 mana to activate and nukes your GY as well, so recursion options are rather limited as it will eat potential stuff you want to bring back. It also doesn't replace itself, unlike Relic of Progenitus.

It's playable, but it doesn't get me excited.

I agree. How many times do you really need to nuke the graveyard? maybe only in control decks or durdly decks.

[H]

How does Solemnity and Cumulative Upkeep interact? Does the permanent get sacrificed because the cost can't be paid? Or can you enjoy your free infinite Glacial Chasm?

Pretty sure you don't have to pay the cost, as long as there is no counter on it.


(At the beginning of your upkeep, put an age counter on this permanent, then sacrifice it unless you pay its upkeep cost for each age counter on it.)

If it has zero age counters on it, you pay the upkeep for zero counters, I'm pretty sure.

[Cire]

Does Solemnity with any Culmative Upkeep card make it worth it as a sort of stall until you get DD? Elephant Grass, Glacial Chasm, Mind Harness, Mystic Remora?

[Barook]

Does Solemnity with any Culmative Upkeep card make it worth it as a sort of stall until you get DD? Elephant Grass, Glacial Chasm, Mind Harness, Mystic Remora?
Glacial Chams already fits into a land shell. Although Mystic Remora certainly is a powerful interaction as well.

There's also Phyrexian Unlife.

Edit: And Thing in the Ice. Maybe too slow, but there's also Celestial Convergence.

[Noctalor]

https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/19399573_10155733800018274_5059200165003623788_n.jpg?oh=10831a43f37eedc42f96715cc96ca26d&oe=59DEACC7

[Darkenslight]

???

Is relic too powerful for standard?

The first ability is targeted on Crook, as opposed to the Relic.

It's still pretty weak compared to RElic, but it's powerful enough to see play in Standard.

[Cire]

Glacial Chams already fits into a land shell. Although Mystic Remora certainly is a powerful interaction as well.

There's also Phyrexian Unlife.

Edit: And Thing in the Ice. Maybe too slow, but there's also Celestial Convergence.

I'm guessing with Thing in the Ice you still have to cast an instant/Sorcery to flip it?

Celestial Covergence is a neat find - but that is still a 7 mana combo that only goes off during your upkeep (? - idk about this, there is no "then" clause" and requires you to have a higher life total.

[Ingo]

Does Solemnity with any Culmative Upkeep card make it worth it as a sort of stall until you get DD? Elephant Grass, Glacial Chasm, Mind Harness, Mystic Remora?

Unless I'm gravely mistaken, Solemnity does not work with Dark Depths because you never put counters on it, it enters play with these counters already on it...
It would be different if it read: when DD enters play, put 10 counters on it.

[H]

Unless I'm gravely mistaken, Solemnity does not work with Dark Depths because you never put counters on it, it enters play with these counters already on it...
It would be different if it read: when DD enters play, put 10 counters on it.

You are gravely mistaken. It's no different than why Melira and a persist creature can go infinite with a sac outlet.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Edit: And Thing in the Ice. Maybe too slow, but there's also Celestial Convergence.
Doesn't Thing in the Ice require you to remove a counter in order to flip it? It's the 'Then' at the beginning of the last sentence that makes me think this.

Solemnity basically shuts down Counters Company in Modern right? Can't untap with Heritage Druid because adding the counter is part of the cost, plus no way to abuse Walking Ballista since it cannot come into play with counters on it...

[MaximumC]

How does Solemnity and Cumulative Upkeep interact? Does the permanent get sacrificed because the cost can't be paid? Or can you enjoy your free infinite Glacial Chasm?

This enchantment makes MANY things bonkers.

1. Infinite sac with Undying OR Persist (Redcap, Kitchen Finks, Geralf's Messenger are all wincons)
2. Immune to damage with Delaying Shield, Force Bubble, or similar.
3. No cumulative upkeep costs. (Dystopia, Glacial Chasm, Ancestral Knowledge, Elephant Grass, Energy Storm, Illusionary Terrain, Mind Harness, Mystic Remora, Phyrexian Soulgorger, Sheltering Ancient, Sustaining Spirit, all spring to mind.)
4. Depletion lands

[morgan_coke]

How does Solemnity work with Suspend counters? No effect because they're not in play? (Solemnity does not specify in play though, just says they can't be put on) A R Greater Gargadon might be playable. 1U for the 2/2 flying bouncer? Ith, High Arcanist? Jhoira of the Ghitu?

[H]

Doesn't Thing in the Ice require you to remove a counter in order to flip it? It's the 'Then' at the beginning of the last sentence that makes me think this.

Nah, they aren't dependent on each other. If they were, the second clause would say, "if you do, then" but it doesn't.


Solemnity basically shuts down Counters Company in Modern right? Can't untap with Heritage Druid because adding the counter is part of the cost, plus no way to abuse Walking Ballista since it cannot come into play with counters on it...

Hmm, I think it does stop it, but I am not 100% sure.

Oh, and in case anyone wants the actual rule on why DD and Solemnity works it's:


121.6. Some spells and abilities refer to counters being put on an object. This refers to putting counters on that object while it’s on the battlefield and also to an object that’s given counters as it enters the battlefield.

[Barook]

How does Solemnity work with Suspend counters? No effect because they're not in play? A R Greater Gargadon might be playable.
It's a card in exile, not a permanent, therefore not affected.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Nah, they aren't dependent on each other. If they were, the second clause would say, "if you do, then" but it doesn't.
I checked Gatherer for any other details and saw this:

"4/8/2016 Removing all ice counters from Thing in the Ice some other way will not cause it to transform. You’ll need to cast an instant or sorcery spell and cause its last ability to trigger."

So it is still necessary to cast an instant/sorcery to flip it.

[H]

I checked Gatherer for any other details and saw this:

"4/8/2016 Removing all ice counters from Thing in the Ice some other way will not cause it to transform. You’ll need to cast an instant or sorcery spell and cause its last ability to trigger."

So it is still necessary to cast an instant/sorcery to flip it.

Yeah, I failed to mention that you'd still need to cast something. I was just saying that the transform isn't dependent on removing a counter.

[Crimhead]

Boy I hope that white card puts an Enchantress deck back on the map!

[Fox]

Yeah, uh Solemnity seems like a mistake...I can't wait to face the silly maverick decks using Chasm/Depths and Wayfarer/KotR. :confused:
I'm also wondering why Solemnity doesn't hit PWs, seems like they should be tagged by this as well.

To add onto the list of now-sustainable effects Energy Storm, Illusionary Terrain, Infernal Darkness, Ritual of Subdual, Sustaining Spirit, and Wave of Terror.

Tarmogoyf alternatives now include a :3: cost 8/8 and a :1::g: 5/5 trampler.

On the plus side, lands can't gain depletion counters with Solemnity out which makes Ice Age non-basic duals (i.e. Veldt) actually playable....on some budget level. Sorry Tempest, your slow-untap duals are still unplayable.:tongue:

[rufus]

This enchantment makes MANY things bonkers.

1. Infinite sac with Undying OR Persist (Redcap, Kitchen Finks, Geralf's Messenger are all wincons)
...
Those are 'enters with'. So it's - at minimum- ambiguous. Edit: Apparently not.

Glacial Chasm is the traditional cumulative upkeep option in legacy. Nobody has mentioned Jotun Grunt either.

Solemnity is also strong vs modern affinity.

[MaximumC]

~~Those are 'enters with'. So it's - at minimum- ambiguous.~~ Edit: Apparently not.

Glacial Chasm is the traditional cumulative upkeep option in legacy. Nobody has mentioned Jotun Grunt either.

Solemnity is also strong vs modern affinity.

No, it's not ambiguous. Cards don't enter with counters if you can't put counters on them. See Merlira Pod.

[CptHaddock]

Solemnity prevents infect to both creatures and players right?

[Undomian]

Yeah, uh Solemnity seems like a mistake...I can't wait to face the silly maverick decks using Chasm/Depths and Wayfarer/KotR. :confused:
I'm also wondering why Solemnity doesn't hit PWs, seems like they should be tagged by this as well.

To add onto the list of now-sustainable effects Energy Storm, Illusionary Terrain, Infernal Darkness, Ritual of Subdual, Sustaining Spirit, and Wave of Terror.

Tarmogoyf alternatives now include a :3: cost 8/8 and a :1::g: 5/5 trampler.

On the plus side, lands can't gain depletion counters with Solemnity out which makes Ice Age non-basic duals (i.e. Veldt) actually playable....on some budget level. Sorry Tempest, your slow-untap duals are still unplayable.:tongue:

Admittedly this card is pretty bad with Wave of Terror :rolleyes:

[H]

Those are 'enters with'. So it's - at minimum- ambiguous.

Why do you assume that it is different than the interaction with Melira, Sylvok Outcast and persist creatures?

I already cited 121.6 which gives you the correct answer.


121.6. Some spells and abilities refer to counters being put on an object. This refers to putting counters on that object while it’s on the battlefield and also to an object that’s given counters as it enters the battlefield.

It's really not ambiguous.

[Fox]

Admittedly this card is pretty bad with Wave of Terror :rolleyes:

Not really, when Wave can't gain age counters it wraths all tokens (and cmc 0's) each of its controller's turns.

[MaximumC]

Not really, when Wave can't gain age counters it wraths all tokens (and cmc 0's) each of its controller's turns.

That's an awful lot of work for Illness in the Ranks.

I feel like this new enchantment is going to play best with cards that are already playable or borderline playable.

1. Ancestral Knowledge
I run this card casually right now in several shells. This card is absurdly powerful, but no one uses it because it's a slow tutor, can't reliably get 1-ofs, and is much more mana intensive than other tutors. If you don't have to pay the upkeep, however, then this is just straight up gas. If you have a way to bounce or blink it, now you're really cooking with gas.

2. Glacial Chasm
This card already sees play, and it can work better now.

3. Geralf's Messenger (and other Undying creatures)
This now forms a win condition with Solemnity and a sac outlet. Previously, these kind of shenanigans required persist creatures. I legitimately forsee a new Collected Company deck in Modern running Undying cards instead of Persist cards, with this a win condition. Such a deck can be very aggressive, as the Undying creatures are better than the Persist ones generally, with a combo backup. Imagine Wolf into Geist into Solemnity into Company. That's an opening with many dangerous outcomes for the opponent.

4. Sustaining Spirit / Delaying Shield / Force Bubble

These are nowhere near good enough for eternal (no one plays Ali from Cario effects) but I can see these cards all improving in EDH.

The rest of the combos are probably too cute or involve cards that are just too bad on their own.

[Ingo]

Why do you assume that it is different than the interaction with Melira, Sylvok Outcast and persist creatures?

I already cited 121.6 which gives you the correct answer.

It's really not ambiguous.

You are referring to a triggered ability (persist), and I always thought entering the battlefield in a certain condition (as a replacement effect) was treated differently.

Take for example the interaction between Blood Moon and Lands entering the battlefield in a certain condition.
The rulings on Blood Moon state:
3/14/2017 : If a nonbasic land has an ability that causes it to enter the battlefield tapped, that ability will still function. For example, if Blood Crypt is entering the battlefield, its controller may pay 2 life to have it enter untapped. Regardless of this choice, it will be only a Mountain and not a Swamp. The same is also true of any other abilities that modify how a land enters the battlefield or apply “as” a land enters the battlefield, such as the first ability of Cavern of Souls.

So Dark Depths enters play as a mountain with 10 ice counters on it, under a Blood Moon.
I don't see how Solemnity is different from Blood Moon in affecting Dark Depths.

I am not posting this to argue, I am confused by this and would like someone to point me out where my thinking would be wrong.

[morgan_coke]

So, Turn 1 Solemnity off say, an Ancient Tomb and a Mox Diamond, Turn 2 Concordant Crossroads type effect and play Dark Depths - win? Maybe throw in the usual Stompy Package and some Eldrazi, that's a deck, right?

[Finn]

Dark Depths enters the battlefield with the counters. At no time are you putting counters on it. Strictly speaking, I do not think it works that way, Sean.

[morgan_coke]

Dark Depths enters the battlefield with the counters. At no time are you putting counters on it. Strictly speaking, I do not think it works that way, Sean.

Well, that's disappointing.

[MaximumC]

Well, that's disappointing.

No, no, you certainly can use a 3-cc Enchantment to make your Marit Lage if you want. But... why would you ever do this when Thespian's Stage exists?


Dark Depths enters the battlefield with the counters. At no time are you putting counters on it. Strictly speaking, I do not think it works that way, Sean.

I believe it does. Look at the rulings on cards like Flourishing Defenses, which triggers when a counter is "placed." They still trigger even when something enters the battlefield with counters, meaning that entering with a counter is "placing" a counter.

http://www.mtgassist.com/cards/Shadowmoor/Flourishing-Defenses/rulings/

See also: Hardened Scales.

http://www.mtgassist.com/cards/Khans-of-Tarkir/Hardened-Scales/rulings/

And here's discussions about how Merlia does indeed prevent creatures from entering the battlefield with counters:

https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/rbiw7/rule_question_etched_monstrosity_and_melira/
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings/magic-rulings-archives/296581-melira-enters-the-battlefield-with-creatures


So, Turn 1 Solemnity off say, an Ancient Tomb and a Mox Diamond, Turn 2 Concordant Crossroads type effect and play Dark Depths - win? Maybe throw in the usual Stompy Package and some Eldrazi, that's a deck, right?

Yeah, we could call it: "Worse Lands!"

[Fox]

So, Turn 1 Solemnity off say, an Ancient Tomb and a Mox Diamond, Turn 2 Concordant Crossroads type effect and play Dark Depths - win? Maybe throw in the usual Stompy Package and some Eldrazi, that's a deck, right?

I think you're likely to see a more normal deck. Solemnity is white, so you only need to run a single copy thanks to Enlightened Tutor (probably a 2x on the tutor). Next most efficient tutor would be Crop Rotation. From that pretty light demand on deck slots, there's no reason you couldn't go blue or devolve into some NicFit discard type approach. I think you'd be hard-pressed to make any case for Solemnity in a lands-heavy approach, since Loam can target Stage. Concordant Crossroads would just be another do-nothing-by-itself enchantment in a shell without card selection or hand correction as you have described it.

@MaximumC sure it's a lot of work, but it's also modal whereas Illness in the Ranks will only ever do one thing. Now sure, there is perhaps a delay but you get to set and freeze Wave of Terror at whatever point you want. It also does everything that it should do in the absence of Solemnity (except ever hit cmc 0 unaided).

[H]

You are referring to a triggered ability (persist), and I always thought entering the battlefield in a certain condition (as a replacement effect) was treated differently.

Take for example the interaction between Blood Moon and Lands entering the battlefield in a certain condition.
The rulings on Blood Moon state:
3/14/2017 : If a nonbasic land has an ability that causes it to enter the battlefield tapped, that ability will still function. For example, if Blood Crypt is entering the battlefield, its controller may pay 2 life to have it enter untapped. Regardless of this choice, it will be only a Mountain and not a Swamp. The same is also true of any other abilities that modify how a land enters the battlefield or apply “as” a land enters the battlefield, such as the first ability of Cavern of Souls.

So Dark Depths enters play as a mountain with 10 ice counters on it, under a Blood Moon.
I don't see how Solemnity is different from Blood Moon in affecting Dark Depths.

I am not posting this to argue, I am confused by this and would like someone to point me out where my thinking would be wrong.

Persist is a triggered ability, but coming into play with the -1/-1 counter is not. It enters play with the counter. That counter is "placed" for all game intentions, as per rule 121.6:


121.6. Some spells and abilities refer to counters being put on an object. This refers to putting counters on that object while it’s on the battlefield and also to an object that’s given counters as it enters the battlefield.

Why does Dark Depths enter with counters under a Blood Moon? This has nothing to do with Solemnity, but the answers is that basically Dark Depths does not care that it will be a mountain when it enters play, it specifies it must have counters placed on it as it enters. The point at which Blood Moon removes it's abilities is after it is already in play and once it is in play, it already has the counters. The same reason why a shock land would still enter tapped if it is under Blood Moon and you don't pay the life.

The flat answer is that Dark Depths asks to have counters placed on it, as per 121.6, Solemnity says no and so the answer is no.

EDIT: Also note that neither Solemnity nor Blood Moon are actually replacement effects, one is a static effect and the other is a type change effect.

[Barook]

Since Doubling Season doubles counters on everything, including planeswalkers, Solemnity should work the same, aka producing a Marit Lage token with DD.

For this very reason, PWs are excluded from the card, since it would kill Planeswalkers who enter the battlefield right of the bat with 0 loyality counters.

[H]

Since Doubling Season doubles counters on everything, including planeswalkers, Solemnity should work the same, aka producing a Marit Lage token with DD.

For this very reason, PWs are excluded from the card, since it would kill Planeswalkers who enter the battlefield right of the bat with 0 loyality counters.

Correctamundo, but it sure would have been funny as the ultimate PW hate ever, most probably.

But do note, as I did above, that Solemnity is not a replacement effect, while Doubling Season is.

[BenBleiweiss]

Dark Depths enters the battlefield with the counters. At no time are you putting counters on it. Strictly speaking, I do not think it works that way, Sean.

This isn't correct. It will keep Dark Depths from entering with any counters. Relevant rulings are how Melira interacts with creatures that enter with -1/-1 counters.

Relevant MELIRA WORDING: Creatures you control can't have -1/-1 counters placed on them.
Etched Monstrosity: Etched Monstrosity enters the battlefield with five -1/-1 counters on it.

If Melira is in play, Etched Monstrosity enters the battlefield as a 10/10.

Relevant SOLEMNITY WORDING: Counters can't be put on artifacts, creatures, enchantments or lands.
Dark Depths: Dark Depths comes into play with ten ice counters on it.

If Solemnity is in play, Dark Depths enters the battlefield with no Ice counters.

[Finn]

Wording does not work for me. Seems counter-intuitive (since there is no action to put counters on), but who am I to argue? Thanks for the clarification, all.

[Darkenslight]

Dark Depths enters the battlefield with the counters. At no time are you putting counters on it. Strictly speaking, I do not think it works that way, Sean.

It's the same way Melira works with the -1/-1 counters cards from Amonkhet. That's why it's so good.

EDIT: Finn, placed was changed to 'put' in the last major Oracle update, I believe.

[MaximumC]

Correctamundo, but it sure would have been funny as the ultimate PW hate ever, most probably.


Wow, what a missed opportunity. That would have been a great use of this card. I bet what happened is that originally it stopped all counters, and then they realized that Little Johnny would have a Bad Day during draft when he accidentally killed his own Walker. They dislike "un-intuitive" results like this nowadays.

...which is exactly why I am worried about more testing before cards go to print :(

[BenBleiweiss]

Wow, what a missed opportunity. That would have been a great use of this card. I bet what happened is that originally it stopped all counters, and then they realized that Little Johnny would have a Bad Day during draft when he accidentally killed his own Walker. They dislike "un-intuitive" results like this nowadays.

...which is exactly why I am worried about more testing before cards go to print :(

I think a card which read "Planeswalkers cannot be played" in addition to the other effects on this card would have been overkill.

[ReAnimator]

Wording does not work for me. Seems counter-intuitive (since there is no action to put counters on), but who am I to argue? Thanks for the clarification, all.

I see what you did there...

[Ingo]

... it specifies it must have counters placed on it as it enters. The point at which Blood Moon removes it's abilities is after it is already in play and once it is in play, it already has the counters.

Thanks for the answer H.

But if BloodMoon removes Depths abilities after it is in play (and already has the counters), isn't it logical this is similar for Solemnity as well? That the effect of Solemnity 'comes too late', to deny the counters being put on Dark Depths?

[Fox]

Thanks for the answer H.

But if BloodMoon removes Depths abilities after it is in play (and already has the counters), isn't it logical this is similar for Solemnity as well? That the effect of Solemnity 'comes too late', to deny the counters being put on Dark Depths?

Dark Depths enters the battlefield as a nonbasic mountain with 10 ice counters on it under a Blood Moon. If you have to reach over to put counters on something, Solemnity sees it regardless of whether or not it came from a trigger or "as it enters."

[Finn]

Don't bother, Ingo. While I completely agree with the sentiment of your argument, I looked into it just now. The rules people have determined that "put on" includes "enters the battlefield with" no matter how odd it seems. Here, look at this from Vizier of Remedies.


“Put on a creature you control” includes that creature entering the battlefield with -1/-1 counters on it.

[Ingo]

Don't bother, Ingo. While I completely agree with the sentiment of your argument, I looked into it just now. The rules people have determined that "put on" includes "enters the battlefield with" no matter how odd it seems. Here, look at this from Vizier of Remedies.

Alright, I'll let it go :smile:, although I still feel like Bloodmoon and Solemnity are ruleswise treated differently here.

[H]

Alright, I'll let it go :smile:, although I still feel like Bloodmoon and Solemnity are ruleswise treated differently here.

They are, because they are different types of abilities. While they look similar as written on a card, they are not in game rules fashion.

So, where Blood Moon is a type changing ability, this means it does not modify how something enters play, or more succinctly, it doesn't change how things would modify themselves entering play, it just changes things while they are in play. At the point of which Blood Moon removes the ability, it has already "done it's job."

Solemnity is a static ability, that changes the rules of the game, so if you'd put counters on something, you just can't.

While these things are confusing in plain English, they have concrete, non-interpretive meaning in game terms.

[MaximumC]

Thanks for the answer H.

But if BloodMoon removes Depths abilities after it is in play (and already has the counters), isn't it logical this is similar for Solemnity as well? That the effect of Solemnity 'comes too late', to deny the counters being put on Dark Depths?

Think about it this way: you can stop the EFFECT of entering the battlefield with counters, but (generally) not the CAUSE, i.e. the card text.

A card cannot have counters on it while it's in your hand. At some point, those counters have to be "put" or "placed" on it. How the card is going to enter the battlefield is determined as it's going from the stack to the field, basically.
That happens at the same time as it enters the battlefield, but it still has to happen. So, you have a CAUSE - the card has text telling you to put it onto the battlefield with counters - and an EFFECT - the counters getting placed or put on the card.

Other cards can mess with the EFFECT by prohibiting it or changing it. That's how Melira and Vizier work.

However, what about cards like Blood Moon? They don't address the EFFECT. They address the CAUSE, namely, the text on the card. But, by the time they affect the card text, the permanent is already entering the battlefield and experiencing the EFFECT of having counters on it.

This is NOT the way Rules talk about this issue, I do not think, but this is an intuitive way to understand why they work the way they do.

[Claymore]

I'd be interested if we see a new WG Not-Stacks Stompy deck.

Solemnity
Elightened Tutor
Crop Rotation
Halls of Mist (lol)
Glacial Chasm
Knight of the Reliquary
Tornado
Ritual of Subdual
Energy Storm
Force Bubble
Elephant Grass
Crucible
Poryphory Nodes for good measure since Drop of Honey is priced out the whazzo.
New Mirror

Obviously a lot of it falls apart without the key card, but so does Enchantress. I think cards either in the board or tune the deck to what actually is useful.

And Tornado becomes 2G: Vindicate, which seems pretty cool.

[Richard Cheese]

My hope is that the next guildwatch cards aregoing to be wildly different than their other cards because of their defeat. . . Jace is apparently a castaway in Ixian doing illusion magic; maybe Gideon will no longer turn into an indestructible fighter; maybe Chandra's fire has gone out; etc.

Jace, Struggling Street Performer
Gideon, Financial Planner
Chandra, Pitmaster (assuming she smoulders)
Nissa, Mediocre Gardener
Liliana, Tattoo Artist

[morgan_coke]

I'd be interested if we see a new WG Not-Stacks Stompy deck.

Solemnity
Elightened Tutor
Crop Rotation
Halls of Mist (lol)
Glacial Chasm
Knight of the Reliquary
Tornado
Ritual of Subdual
Energy Storm
Force Bubble
Elephant Grass
Crucible
Poryphory Nodes for good measure since Drop of Honey is priced out the whazzo.
New Mirror

Obviously a lot of it falls apart without the key card, but so does Enchantress. I think cards either in the board or tune the deck to what actually is useful.

And Tornado becomes 2G: Vindicate, which seems pretty cool.

Man, I really like that. How about:

4x Solemnity
4x Starfield of Nyx
4x Elephant Grass
1x Energy Storm
1x Tornado
3x Sylvan Library
2x Mirri's Guile

3x Crucible of Worlds

4x Enlightened Tutor
4x Crop Rotation
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Orim's Chant
2x Realms Uncharted

4x Ancient Tomb
2x Dark Depths
2x Thespian's Stage
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Halls of Mist
2x Flagstones of Trokair
1x Forest
1x Plains
3x Savannah
4x Windswept Heath
1x Riftstone Portal

(I just threw in the Chant and Uncharted because I had no idea what to put there.) Obviously, as currently built, it dies in a fire to fast combo since it's combo/prison, but maybe with a mix of GSZ, the new dude Crucible/Dryad Arbor/KotR and some hatebears that becomes a solvable problem? GSZ means you can Teeg game 1, and Tutor means you can throw in a few other pieces of combo hate MD at little cost. (hello singleton 3sphere?)

Maybe you could combine Solemnity with some cards with Vanishing? Lost Auramancers, and.. oh snap Reality Acid. I think Chronozoa might just draw the game if you cast it with Solemnity out, since it's an eternal loop of token creation.

[BenBleiweiss]

Man, I really like that. How about:

4x Solemnity
4x Starfield of Nyx
4x Elephant Grass
1x Energy Storm
1x Tornado
3x Sylvan Library
2x Mirri's Guile

3x Crucible of Worlds

4x Enlightened Tutor
4x Crop Rotation
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Orim's Chant
2x Realms Uncharted

4x Ancient Tomb
2x Dark Depths
2x Thespian's Stage
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Halls of Mist
2x Flagstones of Trokair
1x Forest
1x Plains
3x Savannah
4x Windswept Heath
1x Riftstone Portal

(I just threw in the Chant and Uncharted because I had no idea what to put there.) Obviously, as currently built, it dies in a fire to fast combo since it's combo/prison, but maybe with a mix of GSZ, the new dude Crucible/Dryad Arbor/KotR and some hatebears that becomes a solvable problem? GSZ means you can Teeg game 1, and Tutor means you can throw in a few other pieces of combo hate MD at little cost. (hello singleton 3sphere?)

Maybe you could combine Solemnity with some cards with Vanishing? Lost Auramancers, and.. oh snap Reality Acid. I think Chronozoa might just draw the game if you cast it with Solemnity out, since it's an eternal loop of token creation.

Wouldn't this work better running a dual-engine with Replenish, so you could hard-lock (more or less) with Decree of Silence + Solemnity?

[Barook]

Wouldn't this work better running a dual-engine with Replenish, so you could hard-lock (more or less) with Decree of Silence + Solemnity?
Since Solemnity is weak to Abrupt Decay, it's only a hardlock against certain decks.

[Cire]

Obviously, as currently built, it dies in a fire to fast combo since it's combo/prison, but maybe with a mix of GSZ, the new dude Crucible/Dryad Arbor/KotR and some hatebears that becomes a solvable problem? GSZ means you can Teeg game 1, and Tutor means you can throw in a few other pieces of combo hate MD at little cost. (hello singleton 3sphere?)
.

Yeah my first brainstorm tried to include an enlightened tutor package, a GSZ package, a solemnity/glacial/DD/crop rotation, wasteland/cruclibe/new green crucible, accelaration . . . and yeah it's hard to fit everything in. :cry:

[Echelon]

I think Chronozoa might just draw the game if you cast it with Solemnity out, since it's an eternal loop of token creation.

It shouldn't. It says "When the last counter is removed, sacrifice it". There are no counters to be removed, so you won't have to sacrifice it. You'll need an outlet to keep sacrificing Chronozoas so you'll end up with an infinite number of Chronozoas. No draw there, just a very likely victory.