Is there a need for a colorless Show-and-Tell hatecard?

[Ingo]

There are some devastating, colorless hatecards against combo. Against Storm, there's chalice of the void, sphere of resistance (or it's cousin thorn of amethyst), or Trinisphere. Against Reanimator, there's Grafdigger's Cage, Surgical Extraction and Leyline of the Void.
Because these cards are so backbreaking, Reanimator and Storm devote quite some sidespace to answers. However, against Show and Tell there's no specific colorless hatecard. The closest is Karakas, which isn't really backbreaking considering Griselbrand drawing cards in response, or Sneak Attack being activated twice. The best backbreaking hatecard is Containment Priest, which isn't colorless.

Isn't it strange Wizards hasn't printed such a colorless hatecard yet, in comparison to the stuff they printed against Reanimator, or Storm? Is there a gap in today's existing colorless hatecards, specifically geared against Show and Tell?

[Whitefaces]

Spine of Ish Sah?

[Crimhead]

S&T needs different answers depending on what it does. Ensnaring Bridge stops Emrakul. Needle stops Griselbrand. 3Ball stops Omnitell.

If you want a corlourless catch-all answer, maybe Warping Wail?

S&T isn't exactly running amok. The idea that the format needs more ways to beat it is extremely questionable to begin with.

[icedagger]

There are some devastating, colorless hatecards against combo. Against Storm, there's chalice of the void, sphere of resistance (or it's cousin thorn of amethyst), or Trinisphere. Against Reanimator, there's Grafdigger's Cage, Surgical Extraction and Leyline of the Void.
Because these cards are so backbreaking, Reanimator and Storm devote quite some sidespace to answers. However, against Show and Tell there's no specific colorless hatecard. The closest is Karakas, which isn't really backbreaking considering Griselbrand drawing cards in response, or Sneak Attack being activated twice. The best backbreaking hatecard is Containment Priest, which isn't colorless.

Isn't it strange Wizards hasn't printed such a colorless hatecard yet, in comparison to the stuff they printed against Reanimator, or Storm? Is there a gap in today's existing colorless hatecards, specifically geared against Show and Tell?

Is it really necessary that there be a universal hate card for SnT? The deck doesn't seem to be causing any trouble at the moment, and between discard, counters, and specific answers like Ensnaring Bridge, most tier decks have some way of disrupting the combo or at least slowing it down long enough to win.

[Megadeus]

Spine is probably the best catch all. You probably need pressure on board to be able to capitalise on it if your opponent puts Griselchimp into play and draws a million, but it's probably the best. The thing with a colorless answer I guess that is being said is it needs to be castable as well. If it isn't castable then what's the point in not just running like Ashen Rider or something?

[Ingo]

Is it really necessary that there be a universal hate card for SnT? The deck doesn't seem to be causing any trouble at the moment, and between discard, counters, and specific answers like Ensnaring Bridge, most tier decks have some way of disrupting the combo or at least slowing it down long enough to win.



S&T isn't exactly running amok. The idea that the format needs more ways to beat it is extremely questionable.

I'm not saying Sneakshow is overly dominant in the meta, but rather that Wizards has printed many colorless options to battle specific combo-matchups, while staying soft on cheat-fattie-from-hand-archetypes. For example, Grafdiggers Cage is an absurdly effective hatecard against Reanimator, just like Leyline of the Void. I do have the impression Wizards favors SneakShow over Storm or Reanimator in this way.

I think Containment Priest could easily have been a colorless artifact instead of a white creature, while Grafdigger's Cage could have applied to cheat-creatures-from-hand as well.

[Zombie]

The idea that the format needs more ways to beat it is extremely questionable to begin with.

It still sees play though D:

[Crimhead]

It still sees play though D:
Yeah. When I see threads like this I tend to wonder if the OP simply doesn't think S&T deserves to be a tier-1 deck. Not every deck is going to have a reasonable chance to beat every single deck in the format. Some decks are going to be dogs to S&T - that's how it goes.

[Fox]

Spine of Ish Sah?

Add to that Uba Mask. Omni and SnT are completely contingent upon having a card in their hand. Without completely invalidating the mechanic of a card drawn going to hand, there is also Thought-Knot Seer. Then you have Warping Wail.... There isn't really a deficit in this area.

[Crimhead]

I'm not saying Sneakshow is overly dominant in the meta, but rather that Wizards has printed many colorless options to battle specific combo-matchups, while staying soft on cheat-fattie-from-hand-archetypes.

Fair enough. But your title does suggests you think the format actually might "need" more answers; as opposed to a simple curiousity.


For example, Grafdiggers Cage is an absurdly effective hatecard against Reanimator, just like Leyline of the Void. I do have the impression Wizards favors SneakShow over Storm or Reanimator in this way.

One could argue that WotC has overdone it a little on the grave-hate.

On the other hand, one could also argue that grave decks need more dedicated hate. Dredge is very hard to beat if you don't cut off the graveyard. Similarly, my Lands deck is not really going to be shut down by discard, removal, or counter-magic - those can only stall me.

Decks that cheat in fatties can be more easily shut down by versatile disruption not specifically dedicated to hosing that strategy.



I think Containment Priest could easily have been a colorless artifact instead of a white creature, while Grafdigger's Cage could have applied to cheat-creatures-from-hand as well.

It could have been, and I think that would have been fine.

Given some of last year's printings, I think somebody in R&D must love Death & Taxes.

[Zombie]

Yeah. When I see threads like this I tend to wonder if the OP simply doesn't think S&T deserves to be a tier-1 deck. Not every deck is going to have a reasonable chance to beat every single deck in the format. Some decks are going to be dogs to S&T - that's how it goes.

I just don't think the deck is particularily interesting as far as combo decks go - blue shell, cast a single broken spell, oh look I won, such excitement. It's just the dullest safest combo deck there is. It's not a complicated Rube Goldberg engine the way Storm and Elves often play out as, the shell is boredom concentrate compared to something like Painter where you use a bunch of oddball cards to do oddball things and when comboing out actually have to expose both pieces - the first piece itself isn't even a threat, while any random S&T has to be treated as lethal. Tide is similar in construction but again a high activity high synergy engine deck. The creatures S&T cheats into play aren't even interesting anymore. Old cheat-a-fatty decks put into play some oddball things that put you way ahead but weren't ohlols I win buttons, the current crop of payoff cards is highly binary and thus, at least to me, highly boring. That it stays as one of the biggest faces of combo in the format is a disappointment.

In that specific regard, yeah, I don't like that it is a tier 1 deck. Otherwise whatever. But it's an active agent of boredom at least for me.

[Ingo]

Fair enough. But your title does suggests you think the format actually might "need" more answers; as opposed to a simple curiousity.

Ok I see your point.
A better title could have been: Is part of SneakShow's T1-strength that Wizards does not print the same amount of dedicated hate, in comparison to other combodecks like Reanimator or Storm?

I think it's remarkable how much dedicated (colorlessly usable) hate there is on Storm and especially Reanimator, in comparison to SneakShow.

[Crimhead]

@ Zombie, I agree it's not the most interesting deck in the meta (though I have certainly had some interesting games against it). The only less interesting deck (off hand) would be Belcher.

Me I feel that while decks like that might make for less interesting matches, the possibility of facing them adds a little intrigue to meta-game decisions.



Ok I see your point.
I think it's remarkable how much dedicated (colorlessly usable) hate there is on Storm and especially Reanimator, in comparison to SneakShow.

Part of this might be coincidence. Grafdigger's Cage was probably printed for Innistrad Standard which needed graveyard hate. DRS, Spellbomb, Extraction, and RIP were also in Standard concurrent Innistrad. When was the last time cheating in fatties was a thing in Type II? Was it as fare back as Tooth & Nail?
Combo is no longer part of Standard, so they no longer feel the need to print combo hate.

Also, as I had said, there are usually more ways to deal with cheat-in-a-fattie.dec than with recursive graveyard shenanigans. Emrakul and Griselbrand are particularly troublesome, but by the time Griselbrand was a big player WotC had more or less abandoned Legacy in favour of Modern.

Storm hate also is mostly pretty old - much of it predates Storm! WotC used go actually support prison decks. Prison pieces hurt Storm but not S&T. Closest we get to prison pieces these days are white hatebears for midrange decks (which also hurt Storm).

None of us can say why WotC does what they do, so I'm just throwing some ideas out.

[Ronald Deuce]

Duplicant seems pretty good. So does Goblin Charbelcher.

EDIT: Oh, yeah, and Ensnaring Bridge and Noetic Scales.

[Lord Seth]

Honestly, if we're going to count Spine of Ish Sah then you really should count Ashen Rider as an even better "colorless" answer (unless you're playing a deck that's actively trying to ramp into the Spine rather than just drop it into play off Show and Tell).

[Zombie]

That's another thing about Show and Tell - the card really doesn't check out many traditional indicators that something broken is happening: Expensive cards getting cast? Nope, the spell is under 4cc (contrast Storm engines, NO, GSZ, Time Spiral, Aluren, Sneak Attack, Through the Breach...). Many spells per turn? Nope, single sorcery on one turn, about as fair as it gets card logistics wise (Storm, Glimpse, High Tide, Aluren, Food Chain). Things entering play from unnatural zones? Nope, creature from hand, pretty much the poster child of "fair things happening" (contrast graveyard or library ie. Elves, Welder, Reanimator, Misthollow Griffin...). Search effects? Nope, cantrips and Cunning Wish. Odd costs being paid? Nnope. Not until you're dealing with the 7/7 flying lifelinking Demon someone thought it would be a good idea to staple onto Bargain while leaving out the draw step clause... (Did I ever mention that I think Griseltard and pals are dumb?)

Most other combo decks in the game abuse some of the above mechanisms to ramp up things to the unfair/broken territory, S&T just skips all of it. Pretty much the only thing that hits that card's pricepoint and mechanism is "enters the battlefield without being cast". It's a hilariously specific effect that, in current times, mostly hits largely fair green value engines. There's just not much interesting ways you can even attack the deck. It's just cantrips and clunkers with a result of you died. Plus it enables one of my pet cards-to-hate aka Leyline of Your-Hand-Is-Awesome-Or-Not.

[Crimhead]

That’s a really good post, and helps explain why most police cards don't hose S&T.


Things entering play from unnatural zones? Nope, creature from hand, pretty much the poster child of "fair things happening" (contrast graveyard or library ie. Elves, Welder, Reanimator, Misthollow Griffin...).
In fair magic, creatures enter play from the stack, not from the hand. I'm not trying to nit-pic, and I realise you understand this (hence your contrast).

I'm only chiming in to point out that WotC prefers to design cards that make sense to players who don't know what a stack is.
Containment Priest was a clever way to hose S&T without referencing the stack, but I'm not surprised that so few cards hose this effect. Like you said, this is very specific text and hoses a lot of fair decks.

Edit - just realised Containment Priest hoses Dryad Arbor even if played from the hand! It's never come up for me.

Also, I can't seem to figure out what your pet card-to-hate is?

[Zombie]

Also, I can't seem to figure out what your pet card-to-hate is?

Leyline of Sanctity. It turns mulligans into a do they have it or not gamble. You can attack S&T effectively with discard, usually, but if they happen to have Leyline your otherwise amazing hand is suddenly half-full of bricks. The effect's binary (=discard turns into straight bricks), doesn't require ingame investment on the S&T player's part (contrast discard, Defense Grid) and not one that really leads to more interesting games - it's just an extra diceroll - and not really a thing most other decks can take the hit for - they either look to play the long game and the bricks would kill them or they're an engine deck and the bricks, again, would kill them. S&T just doesn't give enough fucks.

[Ronald Deuce]

Seriously, team, S&T hoses S&T. Sure is powerful, and sure has a downside.

[MorphBerlin]

I just don't think the deck is particularily interesting as far as combo decks go - blue shell, cast a single broken spell, oh look I won, such excitement. It's just the dullest safest combo deck there is. It's not a complicated Rube Goldberg engine the way Storm and Elves often play out as, the shell is boredom concentrate compared to something like Painter where you use a bunch of oddball cards to do oddball things and when comboing out actually have to expose both pieces - the first piece itself isn't even a threat, while any random S&T has to be treated as lethal. Tide is similar in construction but again a high activity high synergy engine deck. The creatures S&T cheats into play aren't even interesting anymore. Old cheat-a-fatty decks put into play some oddball things that put you way ahead but weren't ohlols I win buttons, the current crop of payoff cards is highly binary and thus, at least to me, highly boring. That it stays as one of the biggest faces of combo in the format is a disappointment.

In that specific regard, yeah, I don't like that it is a tier 1 deck. Otherwise whatever. But it's an active agent of boredom at least for me.

What do you think about other such decks such as Belcher, Mono-R Stompy, or other chalice dekcs? Those are ok because they are not blue and do oddball things?

I find them to be much less intersting, because it mostly boils down to 1. Do you have force? 2. Do they beat them selfs. The games often have 0 play to it and could be played by a algorithm tbh...

S&t at least has some play to it like storm though not as much I would say. Sure they sometimes happen to have their god hands but so those any combo deck doesn't it?

Leyline is really annoying though, because discard is almost the only nonblue way to fight their combo (aside from priest)

If you want to show something in, how about humility? THat actaully stops both creatures forever :D

[Gheizen64]

Show and tell is just another of those super clunky cards that would be nigh unplayable without brainstorm. I rest my case.

[Crimhead]

As a once and future Enchantress player I will always love and respect Leyline as an anti-combo card. Kind of annoying when the combo decks are running it I guess.


Leyline is really annoying though, because discard is almost the only nonblue way to fight their combo (aside from priest)

Unless you count all the colourless answers discussed in this thread about colourless answers.

Edict and REB are also format staples.

[Zombie]

What do you think about other such decks such as Belcher, Mono-R Stompy, or other chalice dekcs? Those are ok because they are not blue and do oddball things?

I find them to be much less intersting, because it mostly boils down to 1. Do you have force? 2. Do they beat them selfs. The games often have 0 play to it and could be played by a algorithm tbh...

S&t at least has some play to it like storm though not as much I would say. Sure they sometimes happen to have their god hands but so those any combo deck doesn't it?

Leyline is really annoying though, because discard is almost the only nonblue way to fight their combo (aside from priest)

If you want to show something in, how about humility? THat actaully stops both creatures forever :D

Nope don't like T1 combo decks or T1 lockpiece gg decks either. I want to play Magic not play War.

I'm an Elves player primarily so Humility sounds more like pointing a shotgun at my own leg than a good plan ^^'

[Crimhead]

Nope don't like T1 combo decks or T1 lockpiece gg decks either. I want to play Magic not play War.

I'm an Elves player primarily so...

I can certainly see why an Elves player wouldn't like lock pieces! IMO lock pieces are valuable police cards which help keep combo at bay. Combo is pretty strong these days, so I'm thinking these lock pieces are important.

Of course I love prison decks, so naturally I have a positive attitude to locks!
(But I love combo too - Elves, Painter, High Tide, and Dredge are among my favourite decks).

[Zombie]

I can certainly see why an Elves player wouldn't like lock pieces! IMO lock pieces are valuable police cards which help keep combo at bay. Combo is pretty strong these days, so I'm thinking these lock pieces are important.

Of course I love prison decks, so naturally I have a positive attitude to locks!
(But I love combo too - Elves, Painter, High Tide, and Dredge are among my favourite decks).

I like lock pieces, I just don't like lock pieces that end the game on the spot. Prisons people actually have to build are totally fine by me and I wouldn't mind more of it. I know D&T isn't your cup of tea but some of the best games of Magic I've ever played have ended in me realizing that I can't effectively play Magic anymore due to the collective burden of multiple prison pieces and have to concede, while some of the worst have been in the style of T1 Chalice on 1, GG that was fun right?

[Dice_Box]

As a Vintage player I view Shops as a intricate part of the meta whole. You can play a deck built on the ideals of Turbo Zerox but you have to pay the piper when you face him. Legacy, it feels like you get one without the other. You get the Zerox without the punishment.

I like prison decks but I understand why people dislike them. I disliked what Top Miracles did to the format, so I guess I am a little hypocritical in my statement. My view though is that if your forced to build your deck in ways that twist what you can and can't do, just to play a deck that can be stopped by a counter I don't think your doing anything unhealthy for Legacy. If you are able to build your deck to answer everything and you get to play what you like without restrictions, that's when Prison becomes unhealthy.

Is prison unhealthy? No it's actually quite weak. Is it something viewed as not fun? Yes. But those are not the same thing.

[Crimhead]

T1 Chalice on 1, GG that was fun right?

Is that really the norm, though?

As a Lands player, I can drop a turn-1 Chalice against Painter or Reanimator and still be unfavoured in that game! Chalice gives me at least a chance in these games, and makes them a little more live.

Against Storm, a turn-1 Chalice or Shpere puts me way ahead, but it's a far cry from GG. Again, it adds a lot of play to what is otherwise a pretty uneventful MU.

The only decks that are dead (against me) to a turn-1 lock piece are Elves and Thresh. But these MUs are pretty much GG regardless. I don't usually bother bringing CotV vs Thresh, and I can beat Elves handily without it too.

I get that Elves are fairly dead to Eldrazi or other Stompy decks, but every deck has it's Achilles' heel.

With Eldrazi in particular, I always though it was the 1-2 Chalice-Thoughknot punch that was the truly deadly play; not just Chalice = gg.

[tescrin]

Honestly, IMO, Priest was a bit much. I love having a side that can screw Elves, Reanimator, Sneakshow, Dredge, D&T?, Maverick, etc.. in one go, but it's a bit ridiculous; and I do enjoy having combo in the meta. Even when in Non-blue I eventually started doing very well by understanding the match and dedicating appropriate and varied hate to it.

I think EBridge is quite a fair way to hate on them in colorless and until recently wasn't very expensive. There probably exists other colorless hate cards in this thread; but I think it's fair to point out that every color is ready to deal with them, save green?

Red -> REB solves most of your problems. Needle and Revoker solve the others.
Green -> Ramp into ensnaring bridge? Win somehow.
Black -> Discard is particularly effective on them by comparison to Dredge, Reanimator, Storm, or Elves; which all are much more redundant and have more than one way to win. Edicts (especially instant speed) are quite effective too.
Blue -> Lol. If we ignore the giant portion of the card pool that is relevant, we can still have Gilded Drake, Sower of Temptation, and similar.
White -> As mentioned, Containment Priest and it's new instant speed cantripping variant, which I forget.


If standard can just be a vessel that recruits legacy players and not hate out combo completely, I'll be satisfied

[Dice_Box]

Priest was made with Vintage, not legacy in mind. I could find the post, it's on the archive TMD, a Wizards employe stated on the record it was made to combat Oath.

[maharis]

When was the last time cheating in fatties was a thing in Type II? Was it as fare back as Tooth & Nail?
Combo is no longer part of Standard, so they no longer feel the need to print combo hate.

Aetherworks Marvel is currently ruining the game as we speak according to Standard players. Collected Company probably should've been banned in standard. Granted, a Cage effect would've hit Company.


I just don't think the deck is particularily interesting as far as combo decks go - blue shell, cast a single broken spell, oh look I won, such excitement. It's just the dullest safest combo deck there is. It's not a complicated Rube Goldberg engine the way Storm and Elves often play out as, the shell is boredom concentrate compared to something like Painter where you use a bunch of oddball cards to do oddball things and when comboing out actually have to expose both pieces - the first piece itself isn't even a threat, while any random S&T has to be treated as lethal. Tide is similar in construction but again a high activity high synergy engine deck. The creatures S&T cheats into play aren't even interesting anymore. Old cheat-a-fatty decks put into play some oddball things that put you way ahead but weren't ohlols I win buttons, the current crop of payoff cards is highly binary and thus, at least to me, highly boring. That it stays as one of the biggest faces of combo in the format is a disappointment.

In that specific regard, yeah, I don't like that it is a tier 1 deck. Otherwise whatever. But it's an active agent of boredom at least for me.

Good post. Sums up the reason I loathe S&T as well. The games against it are so binary. The omni-sneak hybrids have made it particularly obnoxious because there's wildly different answers for S&T->Omni or S&T->creature or Sneak Attack. So you can have your "answer" and just not have it be the right answer. Pushes people even farther into blue decks of their own because you have to fight it on the stack since letting it resolve is often just misery.

[Crimhead]

Aetherworks Marvel is currently ruining the game as we speak according to Standard players.

It's by understanding that (good) combo decks are being purposely not supported in Standard. When was the last time a combo deck won the Worlds? Dragonstorm?

Regarding Marvel, I guess you don't need to print combo hate if you're just going to ban the combo decks!

[Claymore]

Funny how the official reasoning behind banning Marvel could be almost exactly applied to Show and Tell.

[Crimhead]

Funny how the official reasoning behind banning Marvel could be almost exactly applied to Show and Tell.

Eh?

Apart from the >26% meta share cited, they offered this:


We've spoken with a variety of Standard players in recent weeks, from pros to local grinders, on the merits of banning versus not banning, and here, at least, there was a virtual consensus—the card Aetherworks Marvel is not healthy or fun for Standard.

It's presumptuous to assume a virtual consensus among Legacy players that S&T is [i]unhealthy]/i] for Legacy. A bkt dull, but unhealthy? I imagine most of us think a heavy-handed "fun policing" banned list policy would be far more detrimental than any given deck in this meta.

[Stevestamopz]

Yes.

To everyone saying "derp how do you print one card to do this" - literally just print Containment Priest on a card that costs :2: without the body. How hard is that?

Show and Tell is a dumb fucking card, Show and Tell decks are dumb fucking decks and Show and Tell players are dumb fucking apes.

[Undomian]

Show and Tell is a dumb fucking card, Show and Tell decks are dumb fucking decks and Show and Tell players are dumb fucking apes.

Preach!

[jandax]

Ban dumb fucking apes!

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[Crimhead]

All people are dumb fucking apes It's a scientific fact.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/d0/ef/71/d0ef713546119df7ee24a2066421b24e.jpg

[Ellomdian]

I can think of a 'Hatecard' for Show and Tell in every color, including a number of colorless answers.

But I suspect the purpose of your question is different entirely:
"I'm one of the people who think every color should be equally represented in Legacy results, and my pet, Non-U deck has no real out to SnT. Wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh"

[Ingo]

I can think of a 'Hatecard' for Show and Tell in every color, including a number of colorless answers.

But I suspect the purpose of your question is different entirely:

You could also just read the thread. That way, you would actually know the purpose of the question.


Is part of SneakShow's T1-strength that Wizards does not print the same amount of dedicated hate, in comparison to other combodecks like Reanimator or Storm?

[Kanti]

I just don't think the deck is particularily interesting as far as combo decks go - blue shell, cast a single broken spell, oh look I won, such excitement. It's just the dullest safest combo deck there is. It's not a complicated Rube Goldberg engine the way Storm and Elves often play out as, the shell is boredom concentrate compared to something like Painter where you use a bunch of oddball cards to do oddball things and when comboing out actually have to expose both pieces - the first piece itself isn't even a threat, while any random S&T has to be treated as lethal. Tide is similar in construction but again a high activity high synergy engine deck. The creatures S&T cheats into play aren't even interesting anymore. Old cheat-a-fatty decks put into play some oddball things that put you way ahead but weren't ohlols I win buttons, the current crop of payoff cards is highly binary and thus, at least to me, highly boring. That it stays as one of the biggest faces of combo in the format is a disappointment.

In that specific regard, yeah, I don't like that it is a tier 1 deck. Otherwise whatever. But it's an active agent of boredom at least for me.

A+B combo decks are the natural evolution of combo though, as power creep hits and hits. How do you expect a deck like storm, which is really all gear and cogs, to keep up with A+B combos under the presence of Thalia, Chalice, Trinisphere, Pillar, Leyline, and the list goes on? All the conventional "combo" hate does is hit storm, and then there is "graveyard" hate to hit GY decks.

Decks that play A, resolve B are the future of Magic, imo. Turbo-Depths and SnT just dodge too much conventional "combo" hate to have it be any other way. Why try to chain 10 spells together and Mind Twist myself when I can just try to resolve 1 spell at 3cc with no draw-backs?

edit: SnT and Tubo Depths break some more rules in that they are 2-card combos, but you only need to resolve 1 spell on the stack to enable them. Dark Depths is a land so dodges countermagic, and with Show and Tell the +B part of the combo always stays in hand. This is a sharp turn from other A+B combos like Splinter Twin, where you need to resolve one, protect it, untap, resolve another piece. And this is, imo, why they are so strong, because the games comes down to resolving some stupic 3cc sorcery or 2cc creature. They are just on another plane of existence.

[Dice_Box]

I can think of a 'Hatecard' for Show and Tell in every color, including a number of colorless answers.Cool. Thanks for joining the talk, adding said suggestions to the thread and being a productive member of the site.

[Ingo]

A+B combo decks are the natural evolution of combo though, as power creep hits and hits. How do you expect a deck like storm, which is really all gear and cogs, to keep up with A+B combos under the presence of Thalia, Chalice, Trinisphere, Pillar, Leyline, and the list goes on? All the conventional "combo" hate does is hit storm, and then there is "graveyard" hate to hit GY decks.

Decks that play A, resolve B are the future of Magic, imo. Turbo-Depths and SnT just dodge too much conventional "combo" hate to have it be any other way. Why try to chain 10 spells together and Mind Twist myself when I can just try to resolve 1 spell at 3cc with no draw-backs?

edit: SnT and Tubo Depths break some more rules in that they are 2-card combos, but you only need to resolve 1 spell on the stack to enable them. Dark Depths is a land so dodges countermagic, and with Show and Tell the +B part of the combo always stays in hand. This is a sharp turn from other A+B combos like Splinter Twin, where you need to resolve one, protect it, untap, resolve another piece. And this is, imo, why they are so strong, because the games comes down to resolving some stupic 3cc sorcery or 2cc creature. They are just on another plane of existence.

But in terms of having colorless hate available for Sneakshow and Turbodepths, there’s a big difference between both decks. Turbodepths cannot combo out with Legacy’s most popular permanent on the battlefield, Wasteland, which is usually maindecked by fair decks in four copies. On top of that, Turbodepths is also vulnerable to counterspells, as the deck is clinged together by green landtutors like crop rotation (which is 2for1 when countered), except when Stage and Depths are naturally drawn.

Turbodepths is geared to manage Wasteland with Pithing Needle or tutoring for Ghostquarter, but these are maindeck slots being devoted on beating an otherwise unsurpassable lockpiece (with the Dark Depths sacrifice-trigger on the stack, you can waste in response). Neither Storm, Reanimator or SneakShow have to care about permanent-based hate in game1 to the point of devoting maindeck slots (we did see Storm experimenting with some maindeck decay’s in some decks, pre-topban). That makes Turbodepths a much more balanced combodeck than Sneakshow, although it's also A+B combo.

EDIT: And when thinking of colored answers, Swords to Plowshares ofcourse. Turbodepths can protect itself by Not of This World or Sejiri Steppe (again requiring maindeck space), but both Griselbrand and Emrakul have built-in protection.

[Crimhead]

Is part of SneakShow's T1-strength that Wizards does not print the same amount of dedicated hate, in comparison to other combodecks like Reanimator or Storm?

This isn't a real question. Obviously a combo deck gets worse with the printing of quality, dedicated, hosers. Yes, there is less dedicated hate for "enters play directly from the hand". But this clearly isn't an issue (unless you personally dislike a certain deck).

I see no reason to ask this (clearly rhetorical) question, except as an attempt to stir up (and validate) the S&T hate camp. Seems to have worked.


But in terms of having colorless hate available for Sneakshow and Turbodepths, there’s a big difference between both decks.

I think you are missing their point. They're not trying to compare S&T to Turbo Depths.

What Kanti is saying is that there is too much hate for some combo decks - while you seem take the view that there is not enough for others. I agree with Kanti. I'd sooner bitch about the endless chain of hatebears rather than bemoaning that one modestly successful combo deck faces too few cards which specifically cripple it.

But if you want to vent about a pet-hate deck (like some posters itt), knock yourself out.

Edit - If you are seriously curious about design, the reason we don't have a lot of cards that hose creatures coming in directly from the hand is that it's a relatively obscure interaction that hasn't really ever been a problem.

[Karhumies]

Against Sneak Attack, there is Pithing Needle and Phyrexian Revoker.

Against Show and Tell, there is:

Black:
Memoricide, Slaughter Games, spot discard + Surgical extraction

Blue:
Counterspells + Surgical Extraction

Green:
nothing comes immediately to mind

Red:
Red blasts

White:
Containment Priest
Sanctum Prelate
Nevermore
Meddling Mage
Peacekeeper and Oblivion Ring - creatures

Colorless:
Warping Wail - requires colorless mana
Jester's Cap - mana intensive and only 75%
Ensnaring Bridge vs creatures
Thorn of Amethyst vs Wishboard combo

[tescrin]

What Kanti is saying is that there is too much hate for some combo decks - while you seem take the view that there is not enough for others. I agree with Kanti. I'd sooner bitch about the endless chain of hatebears rather than bemoaning that one modestly successful combo deck faces too few cards which specifically cripple it.


While I mostly agree, the hatebears we mostly use are pretty damn old. Thalia from Innistrad 1.0 (6 years ago), Canonist (9+ years ago), Teeg (10 years ago.) Prelate counts but only because she's a variable chalice without the mana problem. Even Meddling Mage has been around since.. well Gold Cards were new :D

Leo sort of counts, but a tri-color sort-of hate guy that hates on *all blue* doesn't really count IMO.

All I'm getting at is that the hate-bear problem is probably mildly exaggerated. Hatebears have been pretty slow going for awhile. There was EotGR but he's not making waves and giving a nearly strictly-worse option to a color that only had a sideboard option seems ok. I wouldn't mind another hatebear in R or Rx. I think there's some design space for GR to not be garbage, and a good GR hatebear could make Jund, Zoo, or something work. *Probably not*, but it could.

[Ingo]

What Kanti is saying is that there is too much hate for some combo decks - while you seem take the view that there is not enough for others. I agree with Kanti. I'd sooner bitch about the endless chain of hatebears rather than bemoaning that one modestly successful combo deck faces too few cards which specifically cripple it.

But if you want to vent about a pet-hate deck (like some posters itt), knock yourself out.


Aren't you overreacting a bit? There are already way more cards against Storm and Reanimator, both in the main (DRS, Thalia, Chalice ...) and side (Leyline, Cage, Extraction, Thorn ...) than there's deckspace to play them. They have also become that efficient that its hard to design them even more efficient! A threshold has been passed making new hate obsolete, at least against Reanimator and Storm.

As a fair deck usually devotes a fix X of its 15 sideslots to combo, right now fair nonblue decks pick their fight within these X cards against Reanimator and Storm, and roll over to Sneakshow because they have no playable options. A good colorlessly usable S&S hatecard wouldn't expand the number of X sidecards against combo, but diversify them, cutting down on Rea/Storm hate, including S&S hate, but remaining within these X sideslots equally vulnerable to combo. Can't see the problem with that.

So look at the bright side. A good S&S hatecard competes for sideslots and make life easier for other combodecks.

[Crimhead]

Aren't you overreacting a bit?

I think you are. There are plenty of cards people play that help against S&T - every deck has a solid option. Sure, there is no single (playable) haymaker hosers every deck can run that completely shut it down. So what? The deck is not OP and the format (though in flux) is incredibly diverse and open.

It's okay to vent. I like to vent about hate-bears on occasion. So no offense is intended. Just be happy. :smile:


A good S&S hatecard competes for sideslots and make life easier for other combodecks.
Depends on the card.

A colourless Priest would let folks simultaneously hose Reanimator, Dredge, Elves, Oops, and Sneaky Show - without even significantly slowing down their own clock.

Can't say I'm on board for that myself.

[Crimhead]

All I'm getting at is that the hate-bear problem is probably mildly exaggerated.

It's not really even a problem. Combo still thrives, and I can still play Lands.

I'm not too thrilled with the new trend of (3cc) 3 toughness bears. Leotard punishes you for targeting it, and sometimes needs to be targeted twice. Magus of the Crucible also has 3 toughness, and hoses LD decks.

I'm not really worried, but I wish they'd give it a rest and power-creep the creature hosers for a change. A man can dream!

[Ingo]

I think you are. There are plenty of cards people play that help against S&T - every deck has a solid option. Sure, there is no single (playable) haymaker hosers every deck can run that completely shut it down. So what? The deck is not OP and the format (though in flux) is incredibly diverse and open.

It's okay to vent. I like to vent about hate-bears on occasion. So no offense is intended. Just be happy. :smile:


Depends on the card.

A colourless Priest would let folks simultaneously hose Reanimator, Dredge, Elves, Oops, and Sneaky Show - without even significantly slowing down their own clock.

Can't say I'm on board for that myself.

None taken, as long as we don’t start flaming each other :tongue:

I don’t think a deck should be OP before a card can be suggested affecting said deck. Cards get printed all the time, and they always affect decks. For Lands, Sanctum Prelate or Invasive Surgery are sort of hosers, they weren’t ‘necessary’ for the health of the format.

I think that a variation of the cardpool, also in the hoser-section, is a good argument on its own. As I said before, a deck only has X spots to devote to combo, it’s good in my opinion that a player can finetune these X cards against whatever combomatchups he’d like. So I’m not for a universal combohoser, but for an S&S-specific hoser that comes at the cost of taking some Storm or Reanimator slots.

Take Lands for example, and an anti-comboplan of 7 cards in 4 sphere, 2 Thorn, 1 chalice (just an example). Let’s say the perfect S&S-card exists, what would you cut? Every cut you make will make the Storm-matchup severely worse, and where the tax-rocks have some overall use against most combodecks, this S&S-hoser does not. I think a quality of cardvariation - enabling to finetune which matchups are better while making others at the same time worse - is a good thing, and that there's an opportunity in the S&S department.

[Crimhead]

I'm not opposed to a S&T hoser - I'm just "meh" on the subject.

What Legacy really needs is better fair-deck hosers. Abyss, Moat, Humility, etc could use upgrades to bring those strategems into the 21st century. WotC shits on combo enough for my liking already.

[owerbart]

I'm not saying Sneakshow is overly dominant in the meta, but rather that Wizards has printed many colorless options to battle specific combo-matchups, while staying soft on cheat-fattie-from-hand-archetypes. For example, Grafdiggers Cage is an absurdly effective hatecard against Reanimator, just like Leyline of the Void. I do have the impression Wizards favors SneakShow over Storm or Reanimator in this way.

I think Containment Priest could easily have been a colorless artifact instead of a white creature, while Grafdigger's Cage could have applied to cheat-creatures-from-hand as well.

This thread doesn't make a lot of sense.
Sneak and show is vulnerable to discard, needles, bridge, putting hosers in response to the sneak, karakas, revoker, counter magic and more. You also have warping wail if you really want a colorless answer.

Also as a Reanimator player, grafdigger's cage post sideboard is one of the easiest hate pieces to play against.

[JackaBo]

I'm not opposed to a S&T hoser - I'm just "meh" on the subject.

What Legacy really needs is better fair-deck hosers. Abyss, Moat, Humility, etc could use upgrades to bring those strategems into the 21st century. WotC shits on combo enough for my liking already.

This is so true. Although in my nostalgic mind, it's nice that these archaic cards still going strong when you want to hate on fair.

[ScatmanX]

Monkey Cage?

[Therealmslayer]

You got what you wanted now, that Sorcerous Spyglass does around 75% of what you want it to do.

[TokenMaster]

The issue with the hypothesis here is that colorless cards don't necessarily mean any deck can run them or even that they're generic; lots of the "backbreaking" cards OP mentioned are limited to a small handful of decks, in some cases even to merely 2-3 viable decks. Other than graveyard hate because of how plentiful it is, most decks for the most part find their own ways to deal with fast combo and if that wasn't the case, tax artifacts would be in every sideboard.

[16km]

Mirage Mirror looks like it could be okayish?

2: Mirage Mirror becomes a copy of target artifact, creature, enchantment, or land until end of turn.

Could also be used against lands.