Chalice Bomberman/Bomberman Stompy

[Rationalist]

Hey, you got the 4-0, congrats! I've not been able to play for the past two weeks and probably won't be back for another two weeks so the monowhite testing has been at a halt since the back-to-back 4-0s.

Thanks. Still curious to hear how maindeck Prelates work out when you get back; they are so consistently good across a variety of matchups that that really does sound like a promising option.

[hofzge]

I have played the human version for quite somme time and you are right that Dark Confidan seems to be made for this deck. The Problem I have with cutting Walking Ballistas you make the deck more complicated by making the 3 card combo (Salvagers - LED - something) into a 4 card combo (Salvagers - LED - Tutor - something) which is not the way I want to play the deck. I like the sideboard space that Recruiter opens, but Trinket Nage has been consistently mediocre and I will play your list minus the trinket Mages plus Some Walking Ballistas and with a few different Sideboard humans:

//Lands
2 Ancient Den
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Traitors
1 Inventors' Fair
1 Spire of Industry
4 Unclaimed Territory

//Spells
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lodestone Bauble
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Mox Opal
4 Urza's Bauble

//Creatures
4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Dark Confidant
3 Imperial Recruiter
4 Monastery Mentor
2 Walking Ballista

//Sideboard
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Manic Vandal
SB: 2 Sanctum Prelate
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Sorcerous Spyglass
SB: 2 Karn, Scion of Urza
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 Warping Wail

I could also see playing 2 Recruiters and instead 3 Walking Ballistas.

[Rationalist]

The Problem I have with cutting Walking Ballistas you make the deck more complicated by making the 3 card combo (Salvagers - LED - something) into a 4 card combo (Salvagers - LED - Tutor - something)

I want to present a counter-argument, as I think this is a good thing to think about.

I think the fundamental metric you're employing in your argument here, counting cards cast in a very literal sense and "complicated"-ness, is inherently flawed, and I think I can reasonably demonstrate this. Feel free to correct me if you find fault with anything I'm about to say, as I've done all of this fairly quickly just to try to visually convey my understanding of respective probability.

All else being equal (meaning assume the same basic vulnerability to interaction, etc) what really matters with respect to the issue you raise is only two things, Accessibility of the Combo and, to slightly distort a term, the Tempo of the Combo. Rather than calling it a "4 Card Combo", than, as it remains an interaction between only 3 starting elements, only 1 or 2 of which you actually generally spend a finite non-zero amount of mana on, let's instead recognize it as a consistent combo between 3 elements and look at some combinatorics of different ways those three elements could be assembled depending on our deck construction, and the relative speed at which those combinations are able to then go off.

I spent half an hour or so while I was eating my lunch and drew up this small diagram. Forgive the MS-Paintey-ness.

https://i.imgur.com/Fx2lTFU.png

So in the above, I started with two sets of the "core" elements we seemed to agree on, and in the top set I added two Trinket Mage, while in the bottom set I added two more Walking Ballista. That's the only difference between the card pools they represent. This is not an attempt to calculate any specific probabilities, this is merely to measure the respective combo "speed" that is endowed by running Walking Ballista over Trinket Mage in this scenario.

So let's walk over my simplifying assumptions.

In both scenarios, I assume that 3 elements must be combined. Just to establish some terms, let's call it an Engine (Beige)(1), Fuel (Purple)(2), and a Spout (Green)(3).

The 3rd element - the 'Spouts' - I have separated into two categories labeled (+0) and (+1). This is to identify which are "quick" wins, and which are wins that require one extra turn (meaning you must give the opponent one more opportunity to end the game before sealing victory). Again, this involves simplification - for example, using Inventor's Fair as a spout relies on it not being needed as a manasource, as well as at least two other artifacts having been pulled out of the library at some point, etc, but simplified calculations are all we're actually able to do.

I chose to make the simplifying assumption of treating Mentor as a member of the (+0) element-group as opposed to the (+1) element-group, as the actual play-patterns of the deck seem to suggest that treating it as a pre-existing board element is the most appropriate. This is probably my most "assault-able" assumption here, as I can imagine the scenarios where you've assembled elements (1) and (2) but have not come across any spouts (the most numerous element) and draw a single Mentor off the top, or where your opponent has some massive board presence where the existing monks cannot break though - in which case it would function more as a (+1) element - but choosing between the two I feel (+0) is more fitting.

Finally, I chose not to subdivide elements (1) and (2) into respective speeds. Given that our scope here is strictly comparative, and Walking Ballista performs absolutely no role in satisfying (1) and (2) - meaning that the speed of any tutor in this hypothetical board-state would be at most compared to having to actually hard-draw said component in any comparison to Walking Ballista - the speed of the tutor-based line would almost automatically outspeed the comparitive. Furthermore, given how tutors turn LED's into Black Lotuses, and the mana-threshold that can be reached in a 9 Sol-Land deck with Moxes and Petals on top of that, I find they usually don't delay the combo used in this fashion.

So, at this point we just run the numbers and see how many different (+0) speed and (+1) combination of elements can be found in the respective decks.

On the left you can see the respective diagrams just running through the arithmetic here. The reason why it branches in the way that it does is that I'm starting with the "left-most" element (Engine), and if that element represents part of the possibility space accredited to the subsequent elements, I'm removing the appropriate elements for that section of the arithmetic. (If we use an Imperial Recruiter in element 1, clearly there will be 1 less in element 3, and so on).

So, this was a lot of words and numbers, but it should provide us with a very strong estimation of our comparative ability to assemble a combo at different speeds.

The soft conclusion I draw is this; not only am I (the Trinket Mage player) the far more consistent Combo deck with more than double your number of (+1) element combinations, I'm also faster with a greater amount of access to (+0) speed combinations. Sure, this doesn't account for the occasional turn added onto the combo by utilizing tutors to access Engine or Fuel, but those are times where I a already have the option of combing where the Walking Ballista deck simply does not, and this is an element of consistency that in practice does translate into speed.

I am definitely not saying there are no trade offs in running Trinket Mages over Walking Ballista, but your argument I'm responding to above is strictly advocating Walking Ballista as a Combo Element in direct comparison to Trinket Mage, and I respectfully think that extra Ballistas simply don't make you a better combo-deck. Counting spells doesn't matter, and being "complicated" in the abstract doesn't matter. What matters is Speed and Consistency, and I put forward that in this matter Trinket Mage is the clear winner.

The bottle-neck of the combo is not Spouts. The deck is littered with Spouts and Walking Ballista as a card has enormous diminishing returns, as it's mana-intensive when played fairly and the entire premise of the card is that the first Ballista continues to do in subsequent turns the same resource conversion that it did on the turn you cast it. I honestly believe Walking Ballista, while a strong card and necessity of the deck, is over-rated in multiples.


Trinket Nage has been consistently mediocre

I would strongly disagree with this in general, although I obviously can't argue against your personal experience with the card. What I can say is that he not only makes the combo massively more consistent (see above), but he provides easy access to Chalice, sideboard answers to opposing Chalice, Tormod's Crypt, converts LEDs into Lotuses for Ballista / Chalice / EE, and at worse grabs a Bauble in order to play the part of a low-rent if Monk-Enabling Shardless Agent.

If I'm overvaluing Trinket Mage, I would love to hear any points that I'm overlooking so that I could improve as a player myself.

[hofzge]

I am definitely not saying there are no trade offs in running Trinket Mages over Walking Ballista, but your argument I'm responding to above is strictly advocating Walking Ballista as a Combo Element in direct comparison to Trinket Mage, and I respectfully think that extra Ballistas simply don't make you a better combo-deck. Counting spells doesn't matter, and being "complicated" in the abstract doesn't matter. What matters is Speed and Consistency, and I put forward that in this matter Trinket Mage is the clear winner.


I think it is clear that if you runa deck full of tutors you run a better chance of running the combo - but the caveat is that trinket Mage in my experience is not good at fetching Chalice, as that is much better T1 than T3.
Fetching EE is a somewhat good thing as it gives you outs to stuff you have no outs against otherwise. Fetching Walking Abllista or LED is obviously golden.

If we would follow your logic we should also play Infernal Tutor (early versions played that) and any kind of other tutor for 2 or more pieces. I guess in that case an argument can be made to better just scrap many of the "bad" baubles and just play Spellbombs like Aether or Pyrite that can influence the game and if you drive the consistency argument the furthest you get to Imperial Bomberman with 4 Trinket, 4 Recruiter.

I did not like that deck as the double tutor draws are extrremely slow and with less moxen due to less baubles = acceleration & less sol lands you get slow hands. If you play chalice, also go the mox opal and petal way and play a stompy deck so as to play Chalice T1.
That is just my opinion.

[Rationalist]

If we would follow your logic we should also play Infernal Tutor (early versions played that) and any kind of other tutor for 2 or more pieces. I guess in that case an argument can be made to better just scrap many of the "bad" baubles and just play Spellbombs like Aether or Pyrite that can influence the game and if you drive the consistency argument the furthest you get to Imperial Bomberman with 4 Trinket, 4 Recruiter.

Well what's certainly true is that running more Ballista will give you a more comfortable game 1 vs DnT, which I expect you might see an small uptick in thanks to Brightling experimentation.

I disagree with your interpretation of the logic I'm putting forward, as it was a strictly comparative estimation of combo speed and accessibility between two alternatives in response to a one sentence argument that was the same, and not an appeal for combo reliability above all else (It was only that exact sentence I was responding to there and I feel like I established that early on, but perhaps I did a poor job at communicating that); so I feel like you're misunderstanding what I've said.

If your stance on the deck you want to play, however, amounts to, instead of being interested in comparative combo potential and speed, "I want to only accept Combo-outs that meet this strict threshold of setup speed as an 'I-win-button', and I want to play the absolute strongest fair deck I can outside of that", might the 1st Karn be more valuable than the 3rd Walking Ballista? (Since you were waffling between 3 Recruiter / 2 Ballista, and 2 Recruiter / 3 Ballista) Just a thought for consideration.

Post-Script: And if you want to take the stance outlined above, you can certainly find specific fault with the estimation I went into, as there are lines I designated as (+0) speed under a comparative argument that are actually being weighed against objectively faster lines as I didn't differentiate between mana requirements in the first two elements, so my previous post in all its simplification does a pretty poor job of saying "here's an absolute line of objective acceptable 'Combo Tempo'" and 'cutting off the fat', if you will. I was just trying to show with some really rough magnitude-estimations that Walking Ballista isn't a superior combo-piece, as the sentence I was responding to was treating it as such.

[Rationalist]

Top 32 SCG Duel for the Duals, Austin Gattuso (http://www.starcitygames.com/decks/121592)

Running 3 Ensnaring Bridges, Mono-White with 4 Horizon Canopy.

Congrats Austin.

[Arcanis001]

Hi everyone,
I tried the deck the last 2 weeks a bit myself
After a view changes (for my testing the just karn or just bob versions run out a bit fast of gass)
I had online and in paper quite a lot of success and even managed to reach the finals of your local FNM

Result in full Matches:
Combo:
3:0 S&T
4:0 BUG Food Chain
0:2 Dark Depths
5:1 ANT
2:0 UB Reanimator
1:0 Dreage
1:0 Big Red
1:0 TES
Aggro:
1:0 Eldrazi Aggro
2:2 Grix Delver
2:0 Burn
1:0 UWr Mentor Control
1:0 BUG
1:0 Goblin Food Chain
Control:
2:0 4c Pile
0:1 UBR Kess
5:1 8Moon
9-1-1 Miracle
0:6 Big Eldrazi
1:2 Nic Fit
6:1 D&T
2:1 Brews

pretty nasty ~74 winning % in matches
sure some where because of the "brew/unknown" factor and some by missplayes
but looks great so far

Deck

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Mox Opal
3 Lotus Petal
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Urza's Bauble
1 Lodestone Bauble
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Auriok Salvagers
1 Walking Ballista
4 Dark Confidant
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Karakas
2 Inventors' Fair
1 Scrubland
1 Plains
2 Marsh Flats
1 Swamp
3 Karn, Scion of Urza

Sideboard:

2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Containment Priest
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Disenchant


SB still not sure so far the plan was
-vs each blue fair non delver deck take out the 3 Petals
-combo bring in all the hate cut karn
-8moon bring in Spyglass EE Sanctum (on 4 is nearlly gg) Disenchant
-most times you can cut 1 win coin

[hofzge]

Deck

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Mox Opal
3 Lotus Petal
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Urza's Bauble
1 Lodestone Bauble
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Auriok Salvagers
1 Walking Ballista
4 Dark Confidant
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Karakas
2 Inventors' Fair
1 Scrubland
1 Plains
2 Marsh Flats
1 Swamp
3 Karn, Scion of Urza



I love this list - The one card I always missed in the monocolored lists was Confidant and I first played something like this after Angelbakas idea.



Sideboard:

2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Containment Priest
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Disenchant


SB still not sure so far the plan was
-vs each blue fair non delver deck take out the 3 Petals
-combo bring in all the hate cut karn
-8moon bring in Spyglass EE Sanctum (on 4 is nearlly gg) Disenchant
-most times you can cut 1 win coin


I like those ideas too, but as a lot of people play Sneak and Show here I would personally play more hate cards directed towards them like more one Containment Priest or Oblivion Rings instead of Disenchants. I don't particularly like Bridge as a sideboard card in a deck that has Karn and Mentor as Plans B/C and where you empty your hand rather fast.

Also I don't like Ethersworn Canonist that much and would rather play more Sanctum Prelates.

Keep up the good work spreading the Bomberman gospel :)

[Manroe]

So I went 4-0 at the Card Kingdom Weekly yesterday. (If anyone was watching, I was the Round 3 Feature Match).

Over the past few months I've attempted to test with every conceivable construction of this deck (I have admittedly not yet tried the Board the Weatherlight variants), including a few more off the wall ones, and I continue to feel like the 4-Color Unclaimed Territory build is where I want to be with this deck. I agree that the consistency of playing a mono-color deck is ideal in an archetype with a notable amount of colorless lands and without the ability to play a significant number of fetches, I just think that the color "Human" offers a lot that the color "White" does not.

Here's the list I ran:

4x Monastery Mentor
4x Auriok Salvager
4x Dark Confidant
2x Imperial Recruiter
2x Trinket Mage
1x Walking Ballista

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Mox Opal
4x Lotus Petal
4x Urza's Bauble
3x Mishra's Bauble
1x Lodestone Bauble

4x Unclaimed Territory
4x Cavern of Souls
4x Ancient Tomb
3x City of Traitors
2x Remote Farm
1x Spire of Industry
1x Inventor's Fair

SB:

1x Karn, Scion of Urza
2x Quicksmith Rebel
2x Sanctum Prelate
1x Containment Priest
1x War Priest of Thune
2x Manic Vandal
1x Magus of the Disk
1x Surge Node
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Sorcerous Spyglass
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Spatial Contortion


Match 1: Storm (ANT)

Game 1 - I keep a grindy hand and get stormed-out turn 2.

Game 2 - I'm forced to mulligan down to 5 cards no land, but it has a Chalice and two Baubles. I'm using Baubles to dig for lands with what little of a hand I have, so I don't feel that I can play Chalice on 0 in the early game. He takes the first Chalice from me before I can play it, but I draw a second. He ends up taking that one too, again before I can play it for anything other than 0 which would prevent me from digging for mana and even turn a fair amount of it off. My board is Tomb, LED, Opal and I have a Trinket Mage in hand. I crack Mishra's Bauble on his end step and see a 2-mana artifact answer (I can't remember this much time later whether it was a Hurkyl's or a Perilous Voyage, but I'll assume it was a Huryl's). I top-deck the Tormod's Crypt from one of my draws, play it, and then follow up with Trinket Mage. If I had not seen the top of his deck, I think I might have been tempted to crack the LED with the Trinket Mage trigger on the stack and play Chalice on 1 because I'd be worried about him storming off the following turn, but given that I know he has the 2 CMC answer the right play is to lean on the Tormod's Crypt cutting off any lines he might have been comfortable with on his next turn and then playing the Chalice on 2 the next turn. I proceed to do that, and then follow it up with a Sanctum Prelate.

Game 3 - I keep a hand with 2 Chalice. He takes one turn 1, and on my turn I play the other Chalice on 1. On my following turn I destroy his LED with my Manic Vandal. From then on the gameplan is just to play as many hatebears as I can grab and swing in with them and clock him out.

Match 2: Astral Slide

Game 1 - I got to play against Astral Slide, which was great. I turn 1 Remote Farm. Turn 2 Ancient Tomb into Salvagers and LED, recur a Bauble and draw most of my deck on his 2nd upkeep. With my deck in hand Turn 3, I play another Salvagers and some Chalices on 1 and 2 just to be extra cautious, drop the LEDs, cycle one of them and then force him to draw himself to death on his 3rd upkeep.

Game 2 - If I had known his list, I would have boarded in Surge Node and Engineered Explosives since apparently he was running Chalice. I didn't have any incling going into game 2 though, and he drops a Chalice on 0. I play Mentor. Next turn I play another Mentor, run 3 artifacts into the chalice to make 6 monks, and swing with the Mentor for 5. Next turn 2 more artifacts, swing for 26.

Match 3: Punishing Dack (Chris Wessel)

The video archive of this match can be found here (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/269503539?t=01h48m50s)

Game 1 - Turn 1 I lead on LED, Ancient Tomb, Lodestone Bauble, Opal, Float White, Opal, and attempt to resolve Salvagers to combo off T1, but Salvagers meets a FoW. I draw another Opal T2 and go for it again; this time he doesn't have a FoW. My remaining card in hand was Imperial Recruiter though, so even if he did I'd feel pretty good about my position.

Game 2 - Game 2 was a disaster. Between you and me I have on occasion noticed that I have a subtle weakness as a player, and that's that I'm dumb and bad at Magic. In this context, this manifests itself as me somehow talking myself into identifying him as on Sneak and Show based on the cards I had seen game 1, and then boarding hard into this match-up as if I knew for a fact that this is what he was on. I keep a hand based on this understanding. I begin to play based on this understanding. By the time it's clear to me that I'm going all in on something that just doesn't line up with reality, I don't have a lot of resources with which to back-peddle. I attempt to assemble the combo to steal a win, but I can't get there in time. As I scoop to his Deathrite's presenting lethal, I ask him across the table "So, you're not Sneak-Show, than?". Chris gives me a friendly chuckle.

Game 3 - Chris leads on Deathrite, and subsequently misses his next land-drop. I attempt a Chalice on 1, but it meets a force. My opponent cantrips, and next turn I drop an uncounterable Prelate on 2. On his subsequent turn I get thoughtseized and reveal a hand of LED, Mentor, Opal, Quicksmith Rebel. Chris takes the Mentor, so on my turn I land an Opal and an uncounterable Quicksmith Rebel and beat him to death with it. I play a little poorly by dropping out a Confidant unnecessarily which is predominantly clock-neutral, but it hardly ends up mattering.

Match 4: Bizarro Stormy (Greg Mitchell)

Game 1 - He keeps a no-lander on 5, and I try to clock him with Mentor and a Ballista. If I had 1 more mana I could have pumped Ballista once and gotten there, but as it stands I'm one turn short and he does his Bizarro Stormy thing and I die.

Game 2 - Game 2 I land a Chalice on 1, a Containment Priest, a Chalice on 2, I Imperial Tutor up a Prelate on 3, and he scoops.

Game 3 - I hit an early Chalice on 1. After he plays an LED, I destroy it with Manic Vandal (which seemed like a decent 1-of to bring in due to Silent Gravestone) and starting digging for more Control action with a Karn. I find a Prelate but obviously that goes into exile. He Hurkyl's me end-step and proceeds to combo off on his turn. Unfortunately, he gets himself in the situation where his Magus of the Mind is the lowest creature in his Graveyard, he has a Griselbrand in play, he puts two Shallow Graves on the stack and sac's LED for Blue. Since Griselbrand is Legendary, the first Shallow Grave revives Griselbrand and immediately sends another one back to the graveyard, and the second Shallow Grave only repeats this process instead of digging down to the Magus of the Mind. Realizing his error, he expresses his regret and quickly identifies the best out he can play for. At this point I am at 9 and he is at 8. He goes down to 1 to draw more cards, and then casts Collective Brutality, killing the Vandal and draining me for 2 bringing me down to 7. He passes the turn to me and I look through his graveyard to see what I don't have to worry about anymore. I count 4 copies of Shallow Grave, so I call the judge over to ask for the Oracle text of the other Shallow Grave card which is Corpse Dance and has a CMC of 3. Not wanting to go to 4 from Ancient Tomb and Spire of Industry as he still may have some Brutalities and an Acquisiton, I crack the LED for white, grab the Prelate with Karn and play Prelate naming 3 while staying at 7 life, believing that the out he's playing to is Corpse Dance. He offers me the handshake.

Thoughts on the deck:

I continue to love the deck, and feel like even if it became more widely adopted and the novelty of the deck wore off, I would remain on it or at least keep it assembled and sleeved as a permanent fixture.

The reason I prefer the Unclaimed build is that the Confidants make it easier to get rolling off a small pool of mana, and the tutors lets you lean into the combo game 1, while giving you the greatest access to your sideboard game 2 and/or allowing you to board out the majority of the combo to lean into the fair-plan and still have more then reasonable access to the combo when the opportunity arises. Essentially, it feels both more versatile and consistent. What it gives up is Swords out of the board, a more powerful fair-game game 1 without the maindeck Karns, and has slightly lower access to natural white mana for kickstarting Salvagers (which honestly is the point I lament more than the first two). The preponderance of non-basics, on the other hand, does not feel like an issue at all. The difference in susceptibility to wasteland is marginal, and in a 4 Opal, 4 Petal deck that can also use Imperial Recruiter / Karn to turn LED into color fixing-ramp, Blood Moon isn't the biggest threat, and giving up on a small handful of basics in order to be able to easily tutor up answers to opposing Chalice, for example, is a trade I'm happy to make. The primary synergy of the deck is so powerful though that there's plenty of other hypothetical builds to explore, and I would hope that other people experiment with all sorts of variations. For the time being though, and barring someone having a massively positive result with a yet unseen build, I'll stick to iterating Mono-Human.

Speaking of, I'm running out of iterative improvements I want to make maindeck. I finally chucked the Karakas for a 9th Gold Land, as the effect just isn't worth compromising the manabase. I'm beginning to suspect the 4th Mishra's Bauble may be more valuable than the 4th Urza's Bauble. I want to give this thought some time to make sure I'm not just falling prey to experience bias as in theory Urza's Bauble should be stronger (consistently gives you information regardless of how opponent sequences their fetching, gives you immediately relevant information, can give you cumulative information on the opponent when multiples are used in one turn, etc), but in practice I haven't been noticing an effect-based difference in the information the two cards have been giving me, and the synergy that Mishra's Bauble has with Dark Confidant is very alluring, particularly given the CMC distribution of the deck.

As strong as the deck is and I believe it will remain, I suspect the current metagame weather is darkening for us slightly, not getting brighter. Steel Stompy seems a bad-matchup, and that's a deck on an upswing that I expect to continue. This is a bit anecdotal, but Thalia is also creature I suspect to see some growth in after the printing of Brightling. RIP I also wouldn't be shocked to see begin to see more play, as Surgical seems to be at a saturation point based on the numbers coming out of the CFB 2k, and the metagame has already pretty strongly adapted to its ever-presence, meaning that its relative utility should now be notably less. People playing with Brightling would also mean more people playing with White Cards as well, obviously.

That's all for now. Looking forward to seeing how other people are fairing and what specific lists they're working on.I played this version of the deck last night at my weekly legacy event and really enjoyed it. The deck and manabase felt so fluid. I went 3-1 beating Elves, Enchantress, and a post deck. Lost to aggro loam after stealing game 1.

I will probably play a side event or two with this in Vegas this weekend.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk

[Kaono]

https://media.wizards.com/2018/m19/en_MJuYm23c96.png

Another "fun-of" for the humans build perhaps?

[Manroe]

So minor update.. Went 2-1 in both side events. Faced a total of 4 out of 6 possible chalice decks. I liked the tutor package to find answers and really it worked most of the time but I really looked for surge node but never found one at the gp. Is that the way to go?

Overall there were so many chalice decks I was a bit discouraged at the prospect of playing this in that kind of meta. What do you guys think?

Edit: Went 3-0 in the last side event today. The deck is a blast to pilot.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk

[Kaono]

4-0 train keeps rolling. Same list as previously but -1 karn +1 prelate in main. Since Karn was printed I'm 16-0 in matches which is pretty nutty.

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Opal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Lodestone Bauble

4 Walking Ballista
4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Monastery Mentor
1 Sanctum Prelate

2 Karn, Scion of Urza

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Plains
2 Karakas
2 Inventors' Fair

Sideboard:
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Containment Priest
2 Sanctum Prelate
1 Cast Out
2 Seal of Cleansing
3 Swords to Plowshares

As mentioned earlier in the thread, I wanted to try Prelate main to hedge against combo. I don't think it's entirely necessary to go overboard with them though, so 1 in main and 2 more in sb seemed like it'd be strong enough. Didn't end up playing vs combo so still unsure of that direction.

R1: Elves!
Both games played out pretty similar -- I control the board with an early ballista, then he nat orders for hoof, puts me at a low life, then I chump with mentor tokens until I can combo. G1 was pretty crazy as he had 2 hoofs with me at 1 life. Mentor is a great card.

R2: Maverick
She mulligans both games -- g1 I put chalice on 1 and 2, then make 2 3/3 ballistas. g2 I combo out quickly.

R3: Nether Shamans
Weird deck, vial + cavern + nether void. game 1 i have a t1 vial off city but pretty anemic afterwards with only ballista on 1. I eventually draw combo but salvagers gets spell quellered. Luckily 2 turns later I find an EE and get him back for the win. g2 I lose to leovold/clique and prelate on 0. I had an EE but not enough petals/opals. g3 turn 1 mentor on the play kills him in 2 turns.

R4: Punishing Dack
g1 I combo pretty quickly, g2 I get wrecked by a pernicious deed and then misplay a prelate (I know he has push in hand so name 1, but i also know he has snapcaster in hand and his gy kcommand kills prelate and discards my topdecked salvagers), g3 I play tomb,spyglass on t1 and see drs and 4 different planeswalkers (dack, lili, chandra, jace) -- I name DRS then next two turns go plains, tomb, salvagers, win.

[ChemicalBurns]

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Opal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Lodestone Bauble

4 Walking Ballista
4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Monastery Mentor
1 Sanctum Prelate

2 Karn, Scion of Urza

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Plains
2 Karakas
2 Inventors' Fair

Sideboard:
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Containment Priest
2 Sanctum Prelate
1 Cast Out
2 Seal of Cleansing
3 Swords to Plowshares


Great stuff! Kaono I'm still really curious about the mana - is Metalcraft reliable enough without the Ancient Dens in your mana base? How do the Mox Opals overall "feel" to you?

[Kaono]

Great stuff! Kaono I'm still really curious about the mana - is Metalcraft reliable enough without the Ancient Dens in your mana base? How do the Mox Opals overall "feel" to you?

Well, from a stats standpoint, below is the probability of having 3 artifacts in hand for each turn based on # of artifacts. Looks good so far. However, this doesn't really look at the whole picture.

____ _10 __11 __12 __13 __14 _15 _16 __17 _18
Turn 1 31% 38% 45% 52% 59% 65% 71% 76% 81%
Turn 2 40% 48% 55% 62% 69% 75% 80% 84% 88%
Turn 3 49% 57% 64% 71% 77% 83% 87% 90% 93%

Tweaking the hypergeometric distribution probability we can get a bit of a better idea of how that shapes up in our opening hand given the fact that the other mox opals don't count. So that said, with a sample of 6 (assuming an opal in hand) a success rate of 2 (other artifacts) and a # of success = 18 (remaining non opal/ballista/chalice artifacts) we have a probability of success (opal + 2 non opal artifacts) at around 59%.

Adding 4 den bumps that # to 72%. 2 den is 66%.

Personally I find that the additional resiliency vs wasteland/moon that basic plains gives us is worth more than the % increase in turning on an early mox opal, especially since in postboard games I'm often siding out fast mana but can see an argument for both sides.

As for the general "feel", I do find that I leave some baubles uncracked to account for keeping metalcraft on.

Speaking of sideboarding, I'm curious if anyone has put together a fleshed out guide given the current meta. I feel like I'm still haphazard in my strategies and just follow a few general rules.

[ChemicalBurns]

Well, from a stats standpoint, below is the probability of having 3 artifacts in hand for each turn based on # of artifacts. Looks good so far. However, this doesn't really look at the whole picture.

____ _10 __11 __12 __13 __14 _15 _16 __17 _18
Turn 1 31% 38% 45% 52% 59% 65% 71% 76% 81%
Turn 2 40% 48% 55% 62% 69% 75% 80% 84% 88%
Turn 3 49% 57% 64% 71% 77% 83% 87% 90% 93%

Tweaking the hypergeometric distribution probability we can get a bit of a better idea of how that shapes up in our opening hand given the fact that the other mox opals don't count. So that said, with a sample of 6 (assuming an opal in hand) a success rate of 2 (other artifacts) and a # of success = 18 (remaining non opal/ballista/chalice artifacts) we have a probability of success (opal + 2 non opal artifacts) at around 59%.

Adding 4 den bumps that # to 72%. 2 den is 66%.

Personally I find that the additional resiliency vs wasteland/moon that basic plains gives us is worth more than the % increase in turning on an early mox opal, especially since in postboard games I'm often siding out fast mana but can see an argument for both sides.

As for the general "feel", I do find that I leave some baubles uncracked to account for keeping metalcraft on.

Speaking of sideboarding, I'm curious if anyone has put together a fleshed out guide given the current meta. I feel like I'm still haphazard in my strategies and just follow a few general rules.

Kaono, I'm planning a big overhaul of the primer with recent developments moving forward. Will likely add matchups and sideboarding etc. there. Personally I am a big fan of trimming down LEDs (and trimming an Opal) and just grinding the opponent out with Karn/Mentor/Salvagers in fair matchups, and cutting Ballistas and fair cards like Karn in combo matchups and boarding in relevant combo cards.

http://mythicspoiler.com/m19/cards/saimasterthopterist.jpg

This is basically a Blue Mentor-ish card that doesn't die to Bolt, but doesn't have the obvious absurd damage output. It does lead to the drawing of our whole deck during the combo turn though, which is certainly interesting. I think this is worth trying to supplement Mentor?

[Kaono]

re: sideboarding I pretty much do the same thing

Sai looks great -- I've found the deck has a big problem with opposing flying creatures. What I don't like is it takes us out of monowhite, is worse than mentor at our plan b, and an onboard mentor in a combo turn will typically win the game anyway so this replacing it doesn't necessarily speed up the kill.

Space is tight so I'm curious what Sai's inclusion would make the deck look like. Those thopters do make Karn constructs huge though... I wonder if cavern/petal/opal is enough to splash a single Sai alongside mentor.

[Manroe]

I mean, he is another human. The humans build a few posts above could slot him right in. Plus, you can recruiter for him. This may just be better than mentor in that build because he serves the purpose of the draw engine and the dudes in one card.

[f7eleven]

If we had a blue Auriok Salvagers or similar, to make infinite mana with LED, I would definitely switch to a mono-blue deck with this guy slotting in for Mentor. It's harder to kill and works better with Karn (except that casting Karn doesn't trigger him). The fact he doesn't make arbitrarily large tokens allowing one to get through for lethal is irrelevant since his draw ability allows you to kill immediately. That his tokens also fly is very relevant in the meta (e.g., lots of people siding Bitterblossom vs Marit Lage decks).

I did like being able to build-your-own-scry w/ Mishra's Bauble and fetch lands in the BW version before Karn, but am also inclined to stay mono-W currently, though it's closer than you think.


edit: the more I think about it, the more I'm convincing myself this guy is just way better than Mentor for this deck. I'm definitely going UW when M19 comes out.

[Manroe]

Does playing the Thopterist mean we should also play a couple Karakas to protect him and shore up reanimator and lage?

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[Kaono]

Playing Sai probably means cutting some utility lands like Karakas/Inventor's Fair. For now I'll be sticking with monowhite build but am very curious to see how the testing goes for everyone.

[f7eleven]

I've been on Bomberman in paper since October, and signed up for manatraders this week to play it online as well. Not every person will make me click through the combo, and clicking through it probably isn't that bad anyway... I told myself.

Nope, 100% of your opponents in the league will not concede. And Nope, clicking through it IS really bad. Anyway, dropped from the league at 1-3, but would've been 3-1 IRL.

I did get this out of it, at least... started the combo with just over 11 minutes on my clock, won the match with 11 seconds on my clock -- at least I got one of the bastards! Also, this was my first ever league - is it common to play vs a ton of jank? The 4 decks I faced were some kind of budget BUG control with maindeck Pernicious Deeds, Slivers, a deck with 4x Dack Fayden, and Phyrexian Unlife/Solemnity (which I had the Lodestone kill against, but not nearly enough time to generate 150 mana so I could make him draw 50 cards.

https://i.imgur.com/q8pfjUn.png

[cosmiccoil]

Kaono, I'm planning a big overhaul of the primer with recent developments moving forward. Will likely add matchups and sideboarding etc. there. Personally I am a big fan of trimming down LEDs (and trimming an Opal) and just grinding the opponent out with Karn/Mentor/Salvagers in fair matchups, and cutting Ballistas and fair cards like Karn in combo matchups and boarding in relevant combo cards.

http://mythicspoiler.com/m19/cards/saimasterthopterist.jpg

This is basically a Blue Mentor-ish card that doesn't die to Bolt, but doesn't have the obvious absurd damage output. It does lead to the drawing of our whole deck during the combo turn though, which is certainly interesting. I think this is worth trying to supplement Mentor?

Thanks, as always, for the attention to our format and the ideas put forward on mtggoldfish.

I have some possibly controversial thoughts about a U/W build and about Karn in general that i want to float.

I think the best thing about Karn is that it enables a mono-white build of the deck, which comes with its one benefits (smoother mana) and drawbacks (no tutor effect than IF and no card draw other than the normal baubles and Karn). I don't think Karn has a place in versions other than mono-white.

Here are my problems with the card:

1. Any card that provides your opponent a choice as to how you benefit from it can be problematic. Sure, there will be times that both cards turned over to Karn are awesome, but our deck has a ton of air and there are plenty of times that "drawing a card" is "drawing a land" or "drawing a Lotus Petal." I don't think this ability is worth it outside of a mono-white build because a mono-white build has no other good option.

2. The card is not a human, which means it can be countered without any way for us to ensure that it resolves, other than playing around Daze and having a Chalice on 1 for Spell Pierce. Yes, we are spoiled in being able to use Cavern to resolve our spells, but that is something we should abuse as much as possible.

3. Compare this with Dark Confidant in black, which can be resolved on turn 1 (even uncounterably with a cavern) and immediately puts an opponent under pressure to kill it. Karn on turn 2-4 (or even later) doesn't have close to the impact in the early turns, which makes it more difficult to combo out an opponent in turns 1-3.

3. It can actually set us behind if we flip the exact combo card we need and an opponent decides that we can draw the other card. Pure card draw is always going to be better than conditional card draw.

4. The other modes on Karn are cute and awesome, but we don't need them. Other than against Chalice on 0 decks and DnT, we have a very favorable matchups against fair decks in my experience. We can win out of nowhere, which means opponents need to keep up removal for Salvagers (and not Bob). We can turbo out a combo before they cans set up any defense. We can already grind them out with Mentor and Auriok. I don't see the problem that Karn is solving, exceptcard draw in mono-white.

The reason this matters (and that I bring it up) is that there is a huge amount to gain in a splash for either Blue or Black. With Black comes Dark Confidant and, if you're feeling frisky, Magus of the Will, which has been a house for me and yet another must-answer threat. The Blue splash brings Trinket Mage and Sai, which are both awesome. It also opens up playing Paradoxical Outcome instead of Karn, which has been much better in testing than Karn could ever be in a U/W build (plus being able to bounce Trinket Mage and redeploy is silly-good).

Lastly, I think the right mana base for either of these splashes is not a traditional fetchland-dual setup but actually a playset (or close to it) of the artifact lands. It helps a bunch with turning on Opal and there is generally no drawback to making the switch except not being able to run a basic plains profitably, which is definitely a downside, but not a serious issue (honestly Dragon Stompy is already unwinnable, so a basic plains is far from sufficient to turn the matchup).

As for Sai, I think it is an easy two-of in a U/W list, especially one set up to abuse Paradoxical Outcome to generate an army of Thopters. Here is what it could look like:

Creatures:
4 Auriok Salvagers
2 Sai
4 Monastery Mentor
3 Walking Ballista (Thalia and a T1 Delver still needs to die)
3 Trinket Mage

Artifacts:
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Urza's Bauble (zero Lodestone Bauble, given that Sai provides another win-con and the Lodestone-specific win-con is literally just Enchantress and decks that run Glacial Chasm)
3 Mox Opal
3 LED
4 Chalice
1 EE
4 Lotus Petal

Spells:
3 Paradoxical Outcome

Lands:
4 Ancient Den
3 Seat of Synod
2 Inventor's Fair
4 Cavern of Souls
2 City of Traitors
3 Ancient Tomb

I would love to hear your thoughts. Again, I just want to push the conversation forward and not have us settle in to anything being dogma in a deck with a bunch of potential and so little testing.

[cosmiccoil]

Speaking of sideboarding, I'm curious if anyone has put together a fleshed out guide given the current meta. I feel like I'm still haphazard in my strategies and just follow a few general rules.

I think the boards differ quite a bit between the Mono-white build and various other colors--not only because the other colors offer other sideboard cards, but because the weaknesses change drastically.

For example in my U/W build, I only run 2 Crypts because I have three Trinket Mages. Trinket Mage also means a one-of sideboard EE is really a four-of, which is great. I don't think it's worth running in W/B because there are so few ways to find it.

Other than that, I think W/B is the only build that offers a great sideboard card in the color that is splashed, which is Kitesail. I don't run anything blue in the U/W board after trying (and not being impressed) by Venser and Meddling Mage.

The key, non-negotiable cards I see right now in the board are:

Sanctum Prelate
Containment Priest
Ensnaring Bridge
Tormod's Crypt

Other white cards I have tried and abandoned (but I am not on mono-white, so I would probably play these if I was):

Cast Out
Ethersworn Canonist
Swords to Plowshares
Seal of Cleansing
Disenchant
Blessed Alliance
Devout Witness

Black:

Kitesail Freebooter
Orzhof Pontiff

Blue:

...

Have you tried anything else?

[ChemicalBurns]

I actually can't really agree on Paradoxical Outcome over Karn - PO does one thing: draw cards - and it does so conditionally as well. You mentioned that Karn gets slammed into countermagic, but so does PO. Karn is not just a card draw engine though - his ability to spew out creatures larger than Tarmogoyf and Angler often has made many matchups, particularly matchup where you need not fear Bolt, very, very easy, because it allows the deck to shift gears into a Mentor/Karn beatdown deck. This is particularly notable against decks like D&T and Maverick where flooding the board with aggressive creatures generally gets there, combo or otherwise. I think you are really overrating PO here - I tried many, many shells when I played UW, and when you are behind the card really, really sucks. Karn, on the other hand, can singlehandedly stabilise a board and pull you back ahead.

I think compared to Bob though Karn definitely has less of a role in Black builds, because comparably it's counterable, comes out slower etc. So yes, I certainly agree on that point.

In addition to Mono-White, I've been trying Blue-White and have been very happy with it so far.

Lands: (19)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
2 City of Traitors
4 Flooded Strand
1 Inventors' Fair
1 Karakas
1 Plains
2 Tundra

Creatures: (15)
4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Monastery Mentor
3 Sai, Master Thopterist
2 Trinket Mage
2 Walking Ballista

Non-Creature Spells: (26)
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Karn, Scion of Urza
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Mox Opal
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Urza's Bauble

Sideboard: (15)
2 Containment Priest
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Seal of Cleansing
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Surge Node
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Warping Wail

I'm pretty impressed with Sai as "additional" Mentors, and does really help post-board when you care less about comboing and are aiming to beatdown more so. I've been umming and erring on the number of Ballistas and think two is probably best - you need to natural draw them vs. Elves, D&T and Maverick to put yourself in a strong position. Note that Sai himself has been very very sucky vs. D&T though.

[cosmiccoil]

I actually can't really agree on Paradoxical Outcome over Karn - PO does one thing: draw cards - and it does so conditionally as well. You mentioned that Karn gets slammed into countermagic, but so does PO. Karn is not just a card draw engine though - his ability to spew out creatures larger than Tarmogoyf and Angler often has made many matchups, particularly matchup where you need not fear Bolt, very, very easy, because it allows the deck to shift gears into a Mentor/Karn beatdown deck. This is particularly notable against decks like D&T and Maverick where flooding the board with aggressive creatures generally gets there, combo or otherwise. I think you are really overrating PO here - I tried many, many shells when I played UW, and when you are behind the card really, really sucks. Karn, on the other hand, can singlehandedly stabilise a board and pull you back ahead..

I completely agree that PO has some downsides that are problematic for Karn as well. I guess I have never felt that making large creatures to compete with Goyf/Angler is that important. We can chump block to buy time fairly easily and often Mentor is sufficient to attack for the win without Karn, particularly when looping Petals. The reason I focused on the card drawing mode of Karn is because that is what I see that he provides that the deck actually needs as opposed to the other modes, which are certainly good but unnecessary. I continue to think that providing an opponent a choice as to what you draw is important to add to the equation when assessing the pros and cons for Karn, even if you and others still think Karn is the best choice. Karm is good, but I don't think he is unquestionably the right call in a U/W shell. PO and Thoughtcast both provide ways to dig for the combo that might make sense in some number.

I also think Sai makes PO better because it provides another payout for replaying the artifacts that are bounced back to hand.

Also, what is the surge node for (just Chalices on zero?).

[f7eleven]

Finished 4th in a 61-player tourney for a Timetwister. The finish was good for 2x Tundra, which is nice since I was looking to get these in order to play Sai when M19 comes out!'

I beat Burn, Grixis Delver, Maverick, and Grixis Delver again to get to 4-0, then double-drew into top 8. Beat Czech Pile in the quarters, then lost to BR Reanimator in 3 close games in the semis. Games 1 and 3 each (on the draw) I had 6+ draws to find a Salvagers for the win but it wasn't to be. The delver/pile match ups have gotten so much better for us since Karn.

my current list:

4 Ancient Den
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
2 Karakas
1 Plains
4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Karn, Scion of Urza
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lodestone Bauble
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Mox Opal
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Walking Ballista

SB:
2 Cast Out
2 Containment Priest
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Lodestone Golem
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Sorcerous Spyglass

[Manroe]

Top 4'd a high payout event yesterday and cashed out with 70 bucks. I was again on the humans build. Lost to lands for the second time in as many weeks. Counting GP Vegas side events my match record for the last two weeks with the deck is 14-5.

I really like the deck but I'm curious if the U/W version is better or not. Will try eventually. Sideboard options in the U/W version seem more manageable. In the humans build, I mostly have to have colorless hate unless it is stapled to a human body.

Sai should even out the lands matchup considerably, but Tabernacle and Punishing Fire could still be an issue.



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[Rationalist]

https://media.wizards.com/2018/m19/en_MJuYm23c96.png

Another "fun-of" for the humans build perhaps?

He's interesting, but I'm not seeing it. The intent of running the human build is leaning on the Combo Game 1, and then giving yourself the option to lean a lot harder on a Grindy fair-game post-board. He doesn't seem like the best value card, so I don't think he has a logical place.

Also, good to see you back and tearing it up with the deck again.


I mean, he is another human. The humans build a few posts above could slot him right in. Plus, you can recruiter for him. This may just be better than mentor in that build because he serves the purpose of the draw engine and the dudes in one card.

Sai is interesting from the Human-Colored perspective, but I'm still a little skeptical. The primary concession of the Unclaimed Territory / Humans build is that you're less concerned over land-hate (Blood Moon/Wasteland) and want to make the tradeoff of running all non-basics to optimize the cards to steal game 1 off the Combo and give the most flexibility post-board.

If he's a sideboard card to bring in, he strikes me as a 5th, underpowered Mentor. I don't know if that's really desirable over something like a Quicksmith Rebel or a Karn.

If he's a mainboard card, he's inevitably taking the place of something that provides consistency in some way (A Confidant or a Tutor), and that seems to undercut the entire point of going for the Human Build. If I just wanted to fill my deck with good grindy cards and hope that I draw an appropriate combination off the top, why aren't I mono-W? There's plenty of good-enoughs without dipping into other colors now with Karn. Ditching the plains means you're really confident you want some specific ones, and I don't feel a big "specific" pull to this card.

I'm not trying to hate on Sai, and without testing I could of course be off-base, but I'm struggling to see why you would include him in a Humans build. Running Unclaimed Territory presumably means that you've made the decision that you don't want to give yourself the extra points versus Moon/Wasteland, and instead want to run the best cards you can for every individual spell-slot. That simply doesn't sound to me like a scenario that 5th Weaker Mentor would enter. I'm not 100% that I'd want a Real 5th Mentor.



I think the best thing about Karn is that it enables a mono-white build of the deck, which comes with its one benefits (smoother mana) and drawbacks (no tutor effect than IF and no card draw other than the normal baubles and Karn). I don't think Karn has a place in versions other than mono-white.

A bit anecdotal given how short a time I'm basing this on, but Karn has actually been very good out of the sideboard in the Humans build as the deck often wants to be able to pivot to a much more fair-plan out of the board. I'm only running him as a 1-of though sideboard.


I think the boards differ quite a bit between the Mono-white build and various other colors--not only because the other colors offer other sideboard cards, but because the weaknesses change drastically.

This is strikes me as spot on.

At the end of the day, all of the "variants" we are talking about are fundamentally the same deck. We're all 4x Salvagers/Mentor/LED/Chalice/Opal/Petal/Cavern + a Ton of Baubles. No one here, I think, is disputing the core. All the variants are primarily doing is "calling our shots" on what we want to be weaker against and what we want to be stronger against, so sideboards are definitely color-choice specific.

Or, rather, the rest of the deck outside of the core is functionally an extension of your sideboard, because it is the deck positioning itself more so than a defining element.

[Rationalist]

Top 4'd a high payout event yesterday and cashed out with 70 bucks. I was again on the humans build.

Congrats on the Finish.

I've also been on the Humans build for quite a while now; I'm curious as to what matchup you're finding it hard to board against (other than Lands, which is always going to be a bit of a bear, honestly.).

[Manroe]

Congrats on the Finish.

I've also been on the Humans build for quite a while now; I'm curious as to what matchup you're finding it hard to board against (other than Lands, which is always going to be a little harder, honestly.).Maybe I should clarify slightly what I meant. I don't think boarding decisions are all that hard. I actually board much like I used to with Elves when I played that awhile back. I just shave down numbers of combo pieces slightly, leaving all of the tutors and go from there. If I'm bringing in bridges, I likely want to hedge on Bob and etc. What I meant was more along the lines of colored mana for non-creature spells isn't always guaranteed and I'm not always confident I'll have it. I think this can be limiting in what exactly makes up the sideboard.

For example, something like abrade doesn't seem terrible to me on paper but between accelerating out my pieces and a lot of chalices on 0 game 2 and 3, I can't always expect to have red with my current mana base. I hope that makes sense.

Also as far as Sai goes, perhaps I'm too bought into the hype, but wouldn't he be about as good as mentor in this deck or perhaps even better? Am I reading too far into the fact that he has two parts of the combo stapled onto a body that can't be bolted, K-commanded or abraded in response?

EDIT : And that 1/1 fliers attack much easier through bridge post board.

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[Rationalist]

Maybe I should clarify slightly what I meant. I don't think boarding decisions are all that hard. I actually board much like I used to with Elves when I played that awhile back. I just shave down numbers of combo pieces slightly, leaving all of the tutors and go from there. If I'm bringing in bridges, I likely want to hedge on Bob and etc. What I meant was more along the lines of colored mana for non-creature spells isn't always guaranteed and I'm not always confident I'll have it. I think this can be limiting in what exactly makes up the sideboard.

For example, something like abrade doesn't seem terrible to me on paper but between accelerating out my pieces and a lot of chalices on 0 game 2 and 3, I can't always expect to have red with my current mana base. I hope that makes sense.


No that makes perfect sense. I agree that going 4-Color/Humans means that you just can't reasonably sideboard a colored non-creature spell. Outside of Petal/Opal and a tutor/Karn turning on LED, you need to go to Spire of Industry to get access to non-white "natural" colored mana, and that's not really enough to support a card like Abrade. I was asking more what matchup you were trying to shore up by including one, but if your comment was meant as a general "this means I can't Abrade", yes, I have to agree.

[Manroe]

No that makes perfect sense. I agree that going 4-Color/Humans means that you just can't reasonably sideboard a colored non-creature spell. Outside of Petal/Opal and a tutor/Karn turning on LED, you need to go to Spire of Industry to get access to non-white "natural" colored mana, and that's not really enough to support a card like Abrade. I was asking more what matchup you were trying to shore up by including one, but if your comment was meant as a general "this means I can't Abrade", yes, I have to agree.I've been wondering with Sai in the pipeline, maybe this could change a bit. Glimmervoid could be more viable as well as something like Ghiapur Aether Grid post-board.

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[Rationalist]

Also as far as Sai goes, perhaps I'm too bought into the hype, but wouldn't he be about as good as mentor in this deck or perhaps even better? Am I reading too far into the fact that he has two parts of the combo stapled onto a body that can't be bolted, K-commanded or abraded in response?

You could be right.

I haven't actually tested Sai, so any input I have on him in particular doesn't have a lot of weight. He doesn't strike me as superior to Monastery Mentor though as the scenarios you raise strike me as being too narrow to make up for the lack of tempo.

Still, I'd be thrilled to be proven wrong, so go test a build with him and tell us all how you like him. =)

[Rationalist]

I've been wondering with Sai in the pipeline, maybe this could change a bit. Glimmervoid could be more viable as well as something like Ghiapur Aether Grid post-board.

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Oh, Glimmervoid.

My early testing with Glimmervoid was not positive, but the last thing you should do is let any of us randos here stop you from doing the experiment. It sounds like you're wanting to do a 4-Color build that is more Spire-of-Industry/Glimmervoid than Unclaimed Territory, meaning your Manabase would be a bit weaker, but that you could support cards like Ghirapur Aether Grid and Abrade, etc.

It's certainly an experiment you could do. I'm a little skeptical (also keep in mind the tension with Cavern here), but that might just mean that I don't share your vision in where you're going with all of these colored non-creature spells. I've certainly toyed around with some strange builds of the deck just for fun before. (I even tried goldfishing a 4x Horizon Canopy, 4x Managorger Hydra once just for fun. It was about as good as I thought'd be, but hey, that's how it goes)

Let us know how it works out.

[ChemicalBurns]

Some great discussion here so far everyone. Just wanted to keep you all updated on how the Sai build has been going so far through my limited Cockatrice testing.


He is definitely not as good as Mentor, his damage output being pretty mediocre. I win many games by going "all in" on Mentor, but going all-in on Sai leads you to an anaemic army that eventually cannot finish the job. Do not think that Sai will ever replace Mentor - nothing can come close to Mentor's raw damage output. Not dying to Red removal is very notable though and gives you access to some very nice plays.
His grind ability is a bit overrated, because usually you don't want to two-for-one yourself to get the card draw, but it is definitely useful to have (especially since it can lead to comboing on the spot). Other than Opal/Petal, there is usually not many artifacts we want to sacrifice (eg. you'll often have a trinket around and think... "Well, I'll just crack it instead of sacrificing anything..." ), but I'm sure in elongated games it's useful.
A given: he really sucks against Karakas and D&T in particular. Even the Thopters get pretty quickly bricked by say a Serra Avenger, unlike Monks that can usually buff up large enough to push through anything.
His ability to create Metalcraft effectively (particularly for Mox Opal) is really appreciated, and makes me happy not to run artifact lands overall. Unlike mono-White builds though, Mox Opals are never a reliable "early" mana source, but on turn two + they will usually be turned on. As an a bit of an aside, I think Mono-White's greatest strength is the ability for Mox Opal to be both an early acceleration piece (Den + Opal + trinket leads to t1 Chalice, for example), while in non-artifact land builds (ie. any splash build) Mox Opal will always be a mana source reliable more so on turn two or three onwards and unlikely as an early acceleration piece. This makes mono-White still a very valid choice, even with Sai now in the picture.
I forgot how dope Trinket Mage is. Curving Sai into Mage even just as a cantrip into more cantrips is pretty awesome.
Triggering Sai with Ballista is very, very cool.
Karn tokens + Sai tokens is gross (in a good way). Again, I can't stress how continually impressed I am with Karn as card that just fits all the roles we want to be doing. The UW build is even better at the token beatdown plan thanks to Sai and Karn's ability to fuel the tokens (via drawing more trinkets) or just make tokens himself and add to the board is much appreciated. I've won by comboing out less and less with this version of the deck, and have won more games via token swarms (note: this makes Deluge etc. even better against us than it already was).


I think in Rationalist's Humans build Sai will not make the cut - there's just not enough space - and I think a card like Bob etc. are certainly better.

tl;dr, Sai is good as a supplement, but not a replacement, to Mentor, and probably has best a home in a purely UW build. 3+ colour builds have better options.

EDIT: Rationalist, just read your thorough post and wanted to say I agree 100% with you on everything. Mono-White, UW, Humans are all taking a different approach to the same core, with Humans having the best combo ability of all the versions g1 due to the tutor abundance (but weakest mana base) and Mono-White and UW having less combo ability but varying strengths in fair alternative plans (mono-White - stronger mana, better Opals, better Karn shell; UW - "additional" Mentors and emphasis on token beatdown, slightly weaker mana than mono-White, less explosive Opals).

[Kaono]

4-0 train derailed!

Lost to burn tonight which was rough.

G1- I t1 chalice and feel great. He hits me with an Eidolon twice then I drop a ballista for 2 to take care of it. I cast a Karn then he goes price, price, fireblast to kill me out of nowhere.

G2- I combo kill him on T2

G3- hand was decent, IIRC -- 2x chalice, plains, opal, 2x prelate, urza's bauble -- any artifact or land and we're golden. However, topdeck was not kind as I saw opal, mentor, then tomb and by then I was too far behind. If plains was Ancient Den I think I stand a better chance.

Speaking of which, I had decided to try out the Ancient Dens tonight but couldn't find them anywhere. Fitting their absence caused a game loss.

I also switched up my playmats so perhaps jinxed myself. But this one just arrived and it's too perfect not to play:

http://img.hareruyamtg.com/img/goods/L/playmat/121.jpg

I've had a blast playing the deck and will likely run it at the next large tournament I play in just to see how it performs on the big stage. I'm done with it at locals for the time being, as I've got some other stuff waiting in the wings. It's funny -- I was waiting forever for an Imperial Recruiter reprint so I could finally play Bomberman and as soon as it happens I find myself preferring a mono-color "budget" version. Cheers.

[Rationalist]

I went 3-1 tonight at the same event Kaono was at, losing the 4-0 shot to a novice TES player in the finals who just had it Game 2. It was also the final round feature match, but it's not really that interesting to watch, given how few turns the entire match went and the pace of play involved.

The tutors pulled their weight all night, pulling Salvagers into double LEDs to insta-combo, pulling in second Chalices and Sanctum Prelates to double-chalice people same-turn with LED. Running no basics certainly is a con against the Lands match-up, but I managed to pull past Jeremy Edwards on Lands tonight first round with a quick Game 1 combo and just Mentor beats Game 3, and Manic Vandal is definitely a card I want in that match.

Match 2 was the Burn player Kaono played Round 1 (who may have a slightly skewed view of how common the deck is given they are just returning to the format, and I understand we've both played against them in previous weeks). Very fun games, but not a lot of particular insight into the deck. Tutored up extra lock pieces and won at my pleasure.

Match 3 was against Death and Taxes, and while I managed to win the match, I definitely think a mono-White list would have an easier Game 1 in the matchup. Thalia forced me to fetch Ballista (which I am light on, comparatively since the tutors also access it), which then met a Revoker before I could take out the Thalia. After that I switched plans to Comboing off with Salvagers and LED at a +1 Rate with no net mana-generation just to go infinite with Monks, but Flickerwisp on Chalice ruined that plan as well. I managed to take games 2 and 3 without a lot of hastle after getting access to the sideboard, but Death and Taxes is certainly a matchup where the lack of Karakas is palpable.

Also the commentators during the feature match last night seemed to briefly confuse me with Kaono, and attributed to me his entire recent winning streak, so by my reasoning that puts me at 19-1 on the night, which I think is pretty good.

Takeaway for the night: Although they're both winnable enough and I won both of the respective matches tonight, the Human/Unclaimed-Territory build certainly is taking some cost in the Lands and D&T Matchups. Funnily enough I've not felt any comparative problem with the Red-Prison matchup, as I can deal with opposing Chalices much easier, which also means not only are Opal/Petal as consistent as usual, but Imperial + LED for colored mana as well. I feel Neutral to Better in most other matchups, but Lands and D&T feel like a pivot point for deciding what kind of a build of the deck you want with respect to color choice.

Oh, and it's typically a much less significant note (and forgive me if I've mentioned this before), but on the Humans build I just can't beat a Humility effect. Like, in a million years. I still feel better in most match-ups, but when talking about color-differences, it's probably worth noting that a Human build is pretty cold to Humility, and there are some random Nyx Fit and Mythstill decks floating around local metas.

[Rationalist]

Some great discussion here so far everyone. Just wanted to keep you all updated on how the Sai build has been going so far through my limited Cockatrice testing.


Karn tokens + Sai tokens is gross (in a good way). Again, I can't stress how continually impressed I am with Karn as card that just fits all the roles we want to be doing. The UW build is even better at the token beatdown plan thanks to Sai and Karn's ability to fuel the tokens (via drawing more trinkets) or just make tokens himself and add to the board is much appreciated. I've won by comboing out less and less with this version of the deck, and have won more games via token swarms (note: this makes Deluge etc. even better against us than it already was).



This is interesting. Would this make the UW build the strongest Game 1 Fair plan you've identified, than?



I think in Rationalist's Humans build Sai will not make the cut - there's just not enough space - and I think a card like Bob etc. are certainly better.

tl;dr, Sai is good as a supplement, but not a replacement, to Mentor, and probably has best a home in a purely UW build. 3+ colour builds have better options.

As much as I enjoy tinkering with new cards, I had assumed as much, yeah.



EDIT: Rationalist, just read your thorough post and wanted to say I agree 100% with you on everything.

Ahw :tongue:

EDIT:


Cheers.

Cheers. Sad to see your run end, and hope to see you around in the future. That was a streak to be proud of.

[ChemicalBurns]

This is interesting. Would this make the UW build the strongest Game 1 Fair plan you've identified, than?


I think this Blue-White build and mono-White are about the same in terms of power level. Blue-White feels a little "slower" because Opals are not as consistent early in the game (though there is possibly that the mana base could be tweaked for this...), but you combo a little more consistently due to Trinket Mage and I've felt the Delver matchup improve significantly with Sai (we can now block fliers and our token producer doesn't die to Bolt = big deal). But we were already pretty reasonable against those. I think mono-White is a much better Karn shell due to the early explosion of mana leading to very threatening Karns and the artifact lands making his tokens typically huge.

Edit: Thinking about tweaking the mana base... I really should have a one-of Ancient Den to fetch with Trinket Mage at least.

[Manroe]

This is interesting. Would this make the UW build the strongest Game 1 Fair plan you've identified, than?



As much as I enjoy tinkering with new cards, I had assumed as much, yeah.



Ahw :tongue:

EDIT:



Cheers Joel. Sad to see your run end, and hope to see you around in the future. That was a streak to be proud of.I agree with you on this point exactly. D&T is tough (I'm 3-0 against it in tourney play luckily) and Lands is the only archetype I have lost to twice.

Against D&T it usually comes down to Quicksmith Rebel and Magus of the Disk for me. However, I moved Engineered Explosives main and am trying out a Pyrite Spellbomb - - both of which help here. Give it a shot Rationalist and see what you think.

Also, what about trying to find a win con that can win when we are mana neutral? I've run into Spheres ,Thorns and Thalia's between these decks and I had considered that Altar of the Brood would be a way to win through our loop. Haven't tested yet because it seemed cute but just a thought.

EDIT: I quoted the wrong part on my phone, sorry if this is confusing.

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[Rationalist]

Against D&T it usually comes down to Quicksmith Rebel and Magus of the Disk for me. However, I moved Engineered Explosives main and am trying out a Pyrite Spellbomb - - both of which help here. Give it a shot Rationalist and see what you think.

I'm happy to test most anything, and I definitely would be amenable to potential sideboard improvements; how are you reliably providing the Natural Red for the Pyrite Spellbomb though? Also what makes it preferable to other options that also function in matchups where you may still want to Chalice on 1? Could you sell me a bit on why you like Spellbomb? (Outside of the card's historical connection to the origin of the name "Bomberman", if I have my history straight)

[Manroe]

I'm happy to test most anything, and I definitely would be amenable to potential sideboard improvements; how are you reliably providing the Natural Red for the Pyrite Spellbomb though? Also what makes it preferable to other options that also function in matchups where you may still want to Chalice on 1? Could you sell me a bit on why you like Spellbomb? (Outside of the card's historical connection to the origin of the name "Bomberman", if I have my history straight)

Well I've only used it in one tourney so far but I like having an out that lets me draw the deck that turn and another colorless way to kill a hate bear in D&T. The red may be hard to come by at times, but I haven't had issues yet.

[cris_rj]

Question:

What is our side in/out plan in mono White build against fair decks and combo decks?

Can Karn be a Flex slot Agaist fair decks ? Do you guys anytime sideout the combo ? Auriok/led ?

[Rationalist]

re: cris_rj

Kaono was on that build for a while, and mentioned that he wasn't positive on exactly how to sideboard consistently, but followed 'a few basic rules' that served him well. He also might not see your post, as he's currently off the deck and started up a developmental thread on Spirit Tribal instead. I'd consider giving him a PM.

[Manroe]

Question:

What is our side in/out plan in mono White build against fair decks and combo decks?

Can Karn be a Flex slot Agaist fair decks ? Do you guys anytime sideout the combo ? Auriok/led ?I earlier mentioned my plan was to sideboard in a similar fashion as Elves - - shaving down numbers of combo pieces and maybe a bauble or two. I'm. Not sure how correct this is, but it feels right (I'm on humans build). Against fair decks I often take Chalice out.

One thing I've been asking myself is if it is worth keeping Chalice of the Void in the deck vs D&T. On one hand, turning off swords (and SB paths) is a big deal, especially if we sideboard the way I mentioned above. I think the potential to kill a vial on the play is also a good idea. However, getting it bounced by Flickerwisp feels really rough. What do you guys think? Could this be mitigated by boarding something like Spellskite?





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[Rationalist]

One thing I've been asking myself is if it is worth keeping Chalice of the Void in the deck vs D&T. On one hand, turning off swords (and SB paths) is a big deal, especially if we sideboard the way I mentioned above. I think the potential to kill a vial on the play is also a good idea. However, getting it bounced by Flickerwisp feels really rough. What do you guys think? Could this be mitigated by boarding something like Spellskite?


I think Chalice is pretty weak against DnT, even more so because of the Flickerwisp interaction you mentioned. I don't think it's worth trying to salvage with a Spellskite; that strikes me as way too much effort to support a card that's already marginal against them even if Flickerwisp didn't turn it into an actual liability. I'd just consider the Chalices first cuts when boarding. One of the reasons why I'm a proponent of positioning without too much care for Game 1 against Death and Taxes in the first place is that it's an awkward matchup pre-board regardless where your overall plan against them leans a bit harder on the post-board games. I don't think Chalice is worth trying to salvage against them; you're going to be cutting a good amount of cards against them anyways and the Chalices are at the bottom of the heap.

[ChemicalBurns]

Okay 3-1ed the recent weekly with Blue-White. Proxy event, so everyone was happy to try some new M19 cards during spoiler season.

Creatures: (15)
4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Monastery Mentor
3 Sai, Master Thopterist
2 Trinket Mage
2 Walking Ballista

Non-Creature Spells: (26)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Karn, Scion of Urza
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Lotus Petal
3 Mox Opal

Lands: (19)
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Flooded Strand
2 Tundra
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Inventors' Fair

Sideboard: (15)
2 Containment Priest
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Seal of Cleansing
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Warping Wail
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Surge Node

Round 1: Czech Pile

Game 1: I lost the role, my opponent opened with turn one Thoughtseize to see a hand of Mentor, Sai and Salvagers. These all looked pretty good, and really showed already how the heightened threat density was appreciated against Pile. Sai came down triggering once before dying to Decay, but this helped a Mox Opal stay turned on and eventually lead me to combo out with a Trinket Mage fetching LED after I drew another Salvagers.

-4 Chalice of the Void
-3 Lion's Eye Diamond
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Sorcerous Spyglass
+1 Engineered Explosives
+2 Warping Wail

Plow, Spyglass and EE I'm happy to have, the Wails less so, since they only really hit DRS, counter and Edict or Deluge. I think when I'm on the play I should be boarding in Chalice on 1 over WW and StP (even though this leaves you very prone to Leovold), but on the draw I will agree that it's less effective.

Game 2: I whiff a bit and draw a lot of useless Spyglasses as my relevant cards are stripped from my hand and a burly sideboard Goyf comes down. Sai comes down, makes a token and my opponent waits a turn and let's me untap before he Decays it. I get to use my mana to draw two cards (2 Salvagers) but my life total is too low from Tombs and I die.

Game 3: I get to turn one Spyglass my opponent, they let it resolve and I name their in-play Delta, turning off both their land drop and in play DRS (no fetches either side). Mentor beats win from there.

Round 2: Mono-Blue Painter

Game 1: Turn one Stone, turn one Mentor from me, turn two Painter, turn three I'm dead.

-3 Sai, Master Thopterist
-4 Chalice of the Void
-2 Karn, Scion of Urza
-1 Walking Ballista
+2 Warping Wail
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Seal of Cleansing
+2 Sorcerous Splyglass
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Surge Node

I think I boarded wrong here - I thought this was a bit of a combo race, turns out, my opponent brought in so much hate that I should've been on token beatdown plan.

Game 2: I draw Mentor, two Petals and a Warping Wail but bizarrely that gets there, as my opponent draws tonnes of hate (2 Crypt, a Spyglass on Salvagers) but I just beatdown with a motley crew of Monks and an Eldrazi Scion. He tries to get a Bridge in play on the penultimate turn but he can't empty his hand of a FoW and I attack through.

-3 Lion's Eye Diamond
+3 Sai, Master Thopterist

I have Ballista into Mentor, but he eventually fetches his Ballista and kills my Mentor and Ballista (he has a lot of sol lands, and puts it on 3) with a Trinket Mage. I'm sputtering out of gas and my opponent is filtering through with Thirst for Knowledge etc. I have a land and Plow in hand, flodding out a bit. Eventually I draw Sai, play a Petal, get a Thopter, sac some leftover mana rocks to draw more, trigger more Sai and start churning through my deck again. My opponent goes to combo but my Plow saves the day and Sai beatdown wins!

Round 3: Maverick

I've consistently beat this opponent, but Game 1 saw all the flaws of this list come out.

I have a turn one Chalice into turn two Sai + rocks. I play Chalice, my opponent Wastelands me. I have two Strands in hand ... And proceed to draw the other two, the last of which has no fetchables land available for it. Bad deck building, Sean. My opponent's turn two play is a Thalia with Karakas as a White source. Sai looks very embarassing compared to the Ballista he would've been. I can never get to four (or more) mana to cast Salvagers, Karn or whatever in my hand and soon die to Pridemage, Thalia and Knight beats.

-4 Chalice of the Void
-3 Sai, Master Thopterist
+2 Sorcerous Splyglass
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Warping Wail
+1 Engineered Explosives

I um and err about taking Sai out. Should I just go for full comboing? I think skewed by the awkward game 1 I am jaded, but do remember unlike D&T Maverick only ones one Karakas. I think I was just unlucky.

Game 2: I have Mentor beating down but soon my opponent assembles a burly board of Knight, Prelate on zero and a SFM ready to deploy a Jitte. I have a Ballista on one, (killed an Arbor at some stage), Salvagers. They also a ready to Marit Lage me... Luckily, I draw LED on the final turn, pump Ballista to kill Prelate and go off. Very, very lucky.

Game 3: I struggle with my mana development and am a turn off comboing when he Marit Lages me. I ended up having an LED on board and were it a Sai, I definitely would've had a greater opportunity to win the game, since I'd have flying chump blockers. Certainly something to think about.I'd probably do my usual anti-fair deck sideboard and cut to one LED and keep in the Sais.

Nonetheless, the more unstable mana, lack of "natural" drawn Ballistas and legendary payoff card all culminated in a loss to a matchup I usually felt otherwise favoured in. Alas.

Roundn 4: 4c Loam

Game 1: I have a turn two kill with t1 Mage into LED into t2 Salvagers with Baubles in the bin. Unfortunately my opponent heads up plays Chalice on zero and I'm a sad puppy. I draw second Trinket Mage and find an EE, but cannot find a colourless land for the life of me. I do so just before a Lili ults me and am then able to combo out.

-4 Chalice of the Void
-3 Lion's Eye Diamond
-1 Walking Ballista
+2 Sorcerous Splyglass
+2 Seal of Cleansing
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Surge Node
+1 Engineered Explosives

Game 2: He turn zero Leylines me, turn one Chalice on zeros me and then Loam locks me. Wasn't much I could do here.

Game 3: Busted. Turn 1 Mentor into turn two Karn into making a lot of Monks and constructs and Surge Node-ing a Chalice on zero (satisfying) triggering my Mentor. Thalia and Knight got completely overwhelmed by Monks and Constructs.

Also, I'm a big fan of how many tokens I end up having to use. Monks, Constructs, Thopters and Eldrazi Scions have all found their way on to the battlefield.

Anyway, I think the adjustments required moving forward are more concerning the mana base. As sexy as the Karakas is, I might move it to the sideboard over the Surge Node (as cool as it is, I'm not sure how much better it is than EE... Then again, I wanted to EE on three a lot throughout the day and found that hard. Anyway...) and play a forth fetchable land so I don't encounter the stupid feel bads against Maverick as I did. I think even going to 4 Seat, 4 Den is possible, but I'm still one of the biggest proponents of basic Plains in the deck to have a fighting chance against Dragon Stompy. Sai is good, but again we are taking this deck to a more token swarm deck at that stage. Trinket Mage is great due to his ability to create a lot of sideboard equity - cutting down to one LED I don't care so much about anymore because I have three tutors in the deck to find it anyway.

In terms of sideboarding, I have a general philosophy:
- In fair matchups, where people will board in hate for you combo side, I board out LED a lot. In all the versions I play, it is only critically a combo piece and otherwise generates mana and makes you discard your hand. I think the Humans builds have it a bit different (with the tutors, it actually functions as a good accelerant) so take what I say with a grain of salt. But it is usually the first cut in fair matchups.
- Most non-Blue fair decks I will cut Chalice. Especially decks like D&T/Maverick and any Stompy variant. D&T and Maverick get through it very, very easily and they will have many draws where it can just ignore it and move on with life and continue to develop their board. The plan I feel against these decks is to either combo fast, or speedily create a token army with just enough removal to push through the board (be that in the form of Plow, Wail, Ballista). I even cut Chalice vs. 4c Control (mainly on the draw) because their mana costs also vary significantly and Decay and Kommand make it look like a do-nothing, especially when drawn late in the game.
- Against combo, cut Ballista, Karn, add disruption pieces. Sometimes Ballista is good against a certain variety of combo decks (eg. Infect) and hence there I would try to slow ourselves down and out-fair them. But otherwise vs. Storm, S&S etc. I would aim to be a disruptive Mentor beatdown deck that can occasionally win out of the blue. It is this reason why cutting Ballista (which is normally what you need to "kill on the spot") I am fine with - your plan is to just lock up the board with disruption and then kill as an afterthought - pseudo-comboing is usually fine. I do wish I had a Lodestone Bauble in the deck for these kind of situations to not have dead cards in the deck and kill on the spot though.

In general, I think it's more about what "gear" you want to switch the deck to - a token beatdown/grind deck with a slight chance of kill switching the opponent or a faster pseudo-combo deck.

[cosmiccoil]

His ability to create Metalcraft effectively (particularly for Mox Opal) is really appreciated, and makes me happy not to run artifact lands overall. Unlike mono-White builds though, Mox Opals are never a reliable "early" mana source, but on turn two + they will usually be turned on. As an a bit of an aside, I think Mono-White's greatest strength is the ability for Mox Opal to be both an early acceleration piece (Den + Opal + trinket leads to t1 Chalice, for example), while in non-artifact land builds (ie. any splash build) Mox Opal will always be a mana source reliable more so on turn two or three onwards and unlikely as an early acceleration piece. This makes mono-White still a very valid choice, even with Sai now in the picture.

I would love to know why you don't think playing a single splash color (not a 3-5c human build) can be accomplished with more artifact lands, thereby actually making it easier to get Opal online. I am running 4 Den and 3 Synod in my U/W build and have found the manabase to be relatively smooth, especially with Trinket Mage being able to grab a land in a serious pinch. It also makes Karn's constructs better.

[Manroe]

Played the mono white build to a 3-1 finish tonight in a win a dual. Was pretty impressed with the decks fair game and ability to grind. Unfortunately, I made my first major misplay since building Bomberman and it potentially cost me the dual. I sacrificed my Lion's Eye Diamonds to pay for Inventor's Fair and lost metalcraft. I was quite tilted, but after I stepped away after the match and gathered myself I could at least reflect on the great run I have been on and still be proud (this was a misplay in g2 to find a lethal Ballista and win the match, opponent went on to win g3).

[ChemicalBurns]

Cleaned up UW:

Creatures: (15)
4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Monastery Mentor
3 Sai, Master Thopterist
2 Trinket Mage
2 Walking Ballista

Non-Creature Spells: (26)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Karn, Scion of Urza
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Lotus Petal
3 Mox Opal

Lands: (19)
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Ancient Den
1 Inventors' Fair

Sideboard: (15)
2 Containment Priest
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Seal of Cleansing
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Warping Wail
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Karakas

Feels very smooth with the Opals and stuff, so this is probably the best direction to take it. Lack of basic Plains again means Dragon Stompy is unwinnable, but this really feels like a version that very easily beats Pile and Delver - so if you're gunning for those, this is a great pick. Losing percentages against Thalia.dec is a bit of an issue butI don't think it's as bad as initial experience has made it.

Also alerted to me was the strength of Celestial Purge. Plow is good against D&T and co., ofc, but Purge over Plow still gives us an answer to Marit Lage, Leovold that gets around Chalice. Probably more interesting is that it's multipurpose removal that also covers the Dragon Stompy MU. I think it deserves consideration, definitely.

[Rationalist]

For the sake of future review of the thread:

------------------ This is when the DRS / Probe Bans hit ------------------------

Naive, Immediate Impression:

(Please forgive any sloppy reasoning here; this is still very new as of the time of me writing this)

The change would seem Neutral to Bad for us. Besides the potential waning of some good-matchups (we'll have to see where it all goes), the three immediate issues I foresee are a potential resurgence of Lands in particular (1), an increased representation of Wasteland Tempo in general (2), and the potential return of Hard Grave-Hate (3).

(No certainty these three things will happen, just trying thinking ahead for the practice of it)

(1) Lands first; If traditional Lands decks end up moving up the ladder in the aftermath of this shakeup, it's not good news as I believe all currently established variations of this deck have some problems with the match-up. I believe Mono-White has typically been the stronger set-up against this opponent. It's not all roses, however, as the Mono-White builds have a notably higher CMC Curve, and despite the more resilient mana-base, realistically adding just a few plains and no fetches to the mix does not make it that much more resilient, so the points you're bettering yourself in the matchup are marginal. Still, this is definitely points to Mono-White. (Or perhaps W/B to incorporate Dark Confidants once again and generate some value off of a potentially smaller mana-base? Fetches are decent against Wasteland too.)

(2) Wastelands increasing in general is always something we have to respect with this deck, even if the matchups are otherwise favorable. This definitely makes me like the idea of Mainboard Karn a little less though, as I don't feel a desire to increase the count of 4-CMC Threats in the deck. Still, along a similar axis to Lands, this does make me like plains a bit more, so I think this is points to a build like UW, which can reasonably incorporate plains while being a bit lower curve than Mono-White. (Also Sai would likely match up better against plentiful removal than the Dark Confidant mentioned in the previous concern)

(3) Hard Grave-Hate out of the sideboard is my third big concern. This is the pressure that makes me more want to stay on the path I'm already on, trying to slam the Combo for an easy win Game 1, and then turning hard into a fair-game post-board while leaning on Tutors to force my opponent to constantly respect the combo while boarding in cards that are generally useless against my A-Plan.

I kind of wish my first-take on this change pointed in a clearer direction. Still, I think it serves as a naive signpost for how to begin adapting to the meta as it shifts on us in the wake of this morning's B&R announcement. I think if you're worried about Lands, you may want to push your deck more towards the Mono-White builds that have been listed in this thread (or perhaps W/B to also lower the curve?), I think if you're worried about tempo Wastelands you may want to push your deck more towards the UW style ChemicalBurns has been developing, and I think if your concern is a resurgence in Hard Graveyard Hate that a Humans build is the style of list best set up to play into that.

If all three come to pass my first personal reaction is to stay on Humans as to avoid Concern (3) while also keeping Dark Confidants to play through scarce mana-resources, but given the time that I've put into iterating on it already, it will take me a while to feel confident that my reasoning is sound, and not just personal bias. It certainly smells like it could be bias. The tradeoff of this is I'm definitely leaving myself more exposed to Lands if its representation spikes, so perhaps what I really need is a stronger board-plan for the matchup if Lands numbers tick up. The alternative on a UW or Mono-W build I think becomes an issue of where do you find the sideboard space to do everything your sideboard is doing now, plus also being advantaged both pre-board and post-board against decks bringing in hard grave-hate against you.

Still, the magnitude to which any of this comes to pass isn't completely knowable 3 hours after the announcement; just gut reaction.

EDIT: Oh, also, Concern (4) - Increased Representation of Counterbalance?

[Manroe]

I agree with most everything you stated here. Just to add my 10 cents into the mix.

1) I have a hard time believing too many people are going to buy into Lands with a $3000 card in the deck. I expect to see more Aggro Loam and Maverick.
2) If Lands does become a force again, Sai builds seem optimal IMO (chump blockers).
3) Wasteland decks do worry me, perhaps we go into a build with signets, talismans or chromatic stars if it becomes a major problem (seems bad)?
4) What graveyard hate do you expect to see more of? The only troublesome piece I plan on really seeing more of is Leyline.

Everything I said here may be incorrect or biased, but just my thoughts.

[Rationalist]

I agree with most everything you stated here. Just to add my 10 cents into the mix.

1) I have a hard time believing too many people are going to buy into Lands with a $3000 card in the deck. I expect to see more Aggro Loam and Maverick.

I only added 2 cents, so you're already outweighing my initial opinions 5 to 1.

Card Availability and Budget Constraints are always hard to account for how they will affect the meta. Plenty of us struggle to get by and plenty of us are millionaires; it's structure of the society we live in. Still, at the very least you're probably right in that to whatever degree it exists, budget and availability constraints on the format will move people away from Lands and not onto it. (And I do feel much better about being on a Humans build in the face of the Aggro Loam and Maverick Matchups. They're not the strongest matchups but the tutors can at least be leveraged to bring in some particularly powerful tools)

Still, let's be real, Lands is a popular deck, and I do think there are a fair number of people right now who have it sleeved who simply haven't been playing it. (Full disclosure: I'm one of them)



2) If Lands does become a force again, Sai builds seem optimal IMO (chump blockers).

An interesting thought. I was thinking that Karn/Confidant were better in that scenario as they dug deeper and wide-boards were susceptible to Tabernacle. Without testing though I could be wrong. Still, if UW actually proved to be better in the matchup, it would seem to me that upcoming meta shifts might actually be pushing AWAY from a Mono-W build, which while it may prove true, at the very least seems counter-intuitive.



3) Wasteland decks do worry me, perhaps we go into a build with signets, talismans or chromatic stars if it becomes a major problem (seems bad)?

I've played around with Signets and other Mana-Rocks before, as an attempt at insulating the deck against both Wasteland and Blood Moons. When I discovered how well insulated the deck already is against Blood Moon even without any basics, I stopped experimenting with them. I mean, it's certainly something worth testing if the problem becomes overwhelming, but the deck already leans towards having too much air in it, and Mana-Rocks qualify as "more air".



4) What graveyard hate do you expect to see more of? The only troublesome piece I plan on really seeing more of is Leyline.

I'm not quite sure; there's a dynamic tension I haven't actually seen played out before between cards like Silent Gravestone which serves multiple roles, and decks like Bizarro Stormy leaning on Shallow Grave style effects that get around it.

What I do suspect though is that the first domino to fall might be a general increase in Combo decks incentivizing Reanimator to go back to slower, UB builds. This makes Surgical Extraction weaker while increasing the need for Graveyard hate. I'm not sure how that plays out, but it seems like the recipe for the increased representation of one form of harder grave-hate or another.

[Rationalist]

Since we're here trying to predict if Lands will become more prevalent in the new meta, it's worth sharing that PVDR just posted this article on Channel Fireball (https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/winners-and-losers-of-the-deathrite-shaman-and-gitaxian-probe-bans-in-legacy/), for whatever you think of the argument he presents


It might seem weird to peg Lands as a loser, since it’s a deck that had a bad matchup versus Gitaxian Probe, uses the graveyard, has Wasteland, and didn’t play Deathrite Shaman. At first glance, it looks like things just got a lot better for it. But I don’t think they did.

Lands preyed on the Delver/4-color decks, and those decks will be much less popular now. At the same time, Lands usually had a bad matchup versus the decks Delver preyed on. If those decks (e.g. Belcher) are unleashed, it’s bad news for Lands.

On top of that, Lands did care about Deathrite Shaman, but it will care even more about the cards that people will put in their sideboard to make up for the fact that they have no Deathrite Shaman anymore. When I think of graveyard hate that I’ll have to play more of now, the card that comes to mind is Surgical Extraction, which happens to be excellent against Lands.

Because of this, I think Lands is actually in a worse spot than it was before, though it is by no means a bad deck.

That being said, I'm skeptical of his argument that this will lead to an increase in Surgical Extraction. I don't know where the format could shove more Surgical Extractions in, frankly. The card was already absurdly prevalent.

[ChemicalBurns]

I think my big fear for this archetype is that bigger graveyard hosers - RiP/Leyline of the Void, etc. - are going to be more prevalent in people's sideboard. This really nukes, in particular, the card Auriok Salvagers in post-board games. Sure, people were boarding in GY hate against us, but most of these were things like Surgical that still let us accrue advantages via looping Baubles, triggering Mentors more etc. As such, I think post-board it is really pertinent we have some form of grind engines, and ideally have them be of varied forms. I fear for mono-White a little bit because its only engines were really Karn and Salvagers, and Salvagers seems much less reliable. I think UW/WB and Humans have a little better chance, because they have either Sai or Bob as other engines to keep the gas flowing, in addition to Karn.

That being said, Mono-White's more secure mana base is even more pertinent, because I expect more Lands (I kind of disagree with PVDDR here) and also a lot more Stompy decks to destroy the level 1 Blue decks (RUG Delver, Miracles, etc.). Mono-White also has benefits against D&T and Maverick.

Actually, with all this info in mind I actually think WB is probably the best way to take the deck, maybe.

4 Monastery Mentor
4 Dark Confidant
4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Walking Ballista

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Opal
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Den
3 Vault of Whispers
1 Karakas
1 Inventors' Fair

Sideboard
2 Warping Wail
2 Seal of Cleansing
1 Karn, Scion of Urza
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Kitesail Freebooter
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Sorcerous Spyglass

[Rationalist]

I think UW/WB and Humans have a little better chance, because they have either Sai or Bob as other engines to keep the gas flowing, in addition to Karn.

This has been my growing understanding throughout the day as well. 4 Confidant is definitely where I want to remain. The WB list you posted though is running 0 Plains / Fetches, so given that I share Kaono's opinion on Artifact Lands and Mox Opal, I don't really see a reason not to run a Humans manabase. Slightly improved access to natural white and that extra few percentage on Mox Opal doesn't seem worth not running whatever package of Humans one happens to identify as ideal.

I'm with you on 4x Confidant, but what's the argument for straight W/B if you're not in it for fetch/basic protection? Do you value the artifact lands that highly? 7 is ... a lot, especially with only 1 Karn. As Kaono pointed out, Mox Opal is hardly a challenge to turn on even with 0 Artifact Lands, and these are lands that are even more vulnerable than other non-basics. It doesn't seem to be for anything out of the board, as Seal of Cleansing seems hardly preferable over Warpriest of Thune, which can be uncounterable and provide a clock. Can you sell me on the list you posted a bit? 7 Artifact Lands with no obvious payoff for them is a very loud choice, and I may just 'behind the times' here.

EDIT:


I expect more Lands (I kind of disagree with PVDDR here)

I would not be shocked if you were right and he was wrong. (EDIT: But he's not alone in that prognostication, and I believe a fair amount of it hinges on what kind of Combo sees a resurgence without Grixis holding it in check.)

[ChemicalBurns]

I'm just throwing ideas on to the wall - could very well be right that no artifact lands is good. I was aiming to increase the probability of turn one Bob (because with artifact lands, Opals are an easier t1 source of mana) but I honestly have less experience with Bob-based builds than yourself and am happy to take your word for it. You are likely right, if you are running such an unstable mana base, you might as well just play the Humans build if Mox Opal is an non-issue.

That being said, I have been pleasantly surprised with how great UW has been with artifact lands (4 Seat, 4 Den). Mana felt a lot smoother and Opals did a lot of work.

[f7eleven]

Surgical Extraction and Faerie Macabre will remain the most popular SB graveyard hate due to the former's synergy with Snapcaster and the latter vs revealed Chancellors, and we still get to play around those with one extra mana when going off. I think we'll be playing our own Leylines in the SB though.

I've been bringing in Sorcerous Spyglass vs Wasteland decks already, and will keep doing so. 4x Mox Opal and 8x sol lands seem even more important now. I don't want to be adding fetches to the deck in the face of RUG Delver's return.

The Karn beatdown plan is so much better than the Dark Confidants he replaced when Dominaria came out - I can't see going back. There will still be very few answers for Karn or our 4-cmc, 4-toughness Salvagers. I'm surprised by the lack of 4x Karn in others' lists. He's great in multiples.

If you do go the humans route, I really recommend you try 1-2x Hostage Takers in the board. They can grab fatties vs Show and Tell/Reanimator decks, as well as nab opposing Chalices, Pithing Needle effects, or a problem equipment. I liked her a lot when I was on WB, but haven't seen anyone mention her. You can even play a Griselbrand hostage with a couple LED's.

[Rationalist]

I honestly have less experience with Bob-based builds than yourself and am happy to take your word for it.

Thank you, but that's a little scary - feel free to be a little skeptical.


4x Mox Opal and 8x sol lands seem even more important now.

I've actually been on 9 for a while, although I don't think we can be 100% on manabases without some testing in the new environment.



The Karn beatdown plan is so much better than the Dark Confidants he replaced when Dominaria came out - I can't see going back. There will still be very few answers for Karn or our 4-cmc, 4-toughness Salvagers. I'm surprised by the lack of 4x Karn in others' lists. He's great in multiples.

When Karn is good he is amazing, and he's also flexible, so I don't disagree that I want him in the 75. The issue I've found with him is that he's not always a good independent threat, he is Legendary, and frankly 8x 4Cmc cards can prove a little greedy in a deck as Wasteland-able as we are, even in mono-colored builds, and especially with the new weather forecast saying a deluge of Wastelands is coming in (Plus a few extra Thalia's making him a 5-Drop as they work at attacking your manabase). If he keeps working for you as a 4x Maindeck in your build, by all means keep running him, but my current reasoning is that I want to win the game by 10% more consistently than by 50% when things just come together.



If you do go the humans route, I really recommend you try 1-2x Hostage Takers in the board. They can grab fatties vs Show and Tell/Reanimator decks, as well as nab opposing Chalices, Pithing Needle effects, or a problem equipment. I liked her a lot when I was on WB, but haven't seen anyone mention her. You can even play a Griselbrand hostage with a couple LED's.

This is interesting. I included Hostage Takers in earlier builds, but at the time it was a bit of a ... greedy experiment, and frankly I rarely brought them in. If they become good that would amazing. Thank you for that reminder, I'll certainly keep consider testing them out again.

[Rationalist]

Julian Knab has been comparing the current situation in Legacy to the N-Body problem, suggesting that the best way to move forward is not to overly theorycraft, but just to start with what we already have, tweak it, test and iterate. I think what might make sense, in that light, is just to begin with lists that are currently good and start to talk at a more micro-level on what changes we might want to prepare to make reactively as the new environment takes a hold.

So here is where I got after 4-5 months testing pre-Bans; let me start poking it with a stick and see which bits might be a bit soft.
(EDIT: Again, all input/ideas appreciated on how to adapt to new environment.)


4x Monastery Mentor
4x Auriok Salvager
4x Dark Confidant
2x Imperial Recruiter
2x Trinket Mage
1x Walking Ballista

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Mox Opal
4x Lotus Petal
4x Urza's Bauble
3x Mishra's Bauble
1x Lodestone Bauble

4x Unclaimed Territory
4x Cavern of Souls
4x Ancient Tomb
3x City of Traitors
2x Remote Farm
1x Spire of Industry
1x Inventors' Fair

SB:

1x Karn, Scion of Urza
2x Quicksmith Rebel
2x Sanctum Prelate
1x Containment Priest
1x War Priest of Thune
2x Manic Vandal
1x Magus of the Disk
1x Surge Node
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Sorcerous Spyglass
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Spatial Contortion


Going down the list in written order, here are the pieces that read to me as the most potentially soft. Any input you could add would be helpful as I try to make sure I'm at a good starting place for a whole new big run of testing.

1x Walking Ballista

I've long been a proponent of shaving down Walking Ballista for a few reasons. An honest assessment of the deck says that Walking Ballista is included primarily as a Combo-piece, and as I was trying to highlight with some rough arithmetic a couple pages ago, it doesn't represent the bottle-neck of pieces needed to combo off (meaning extra copies aren't actually best serving the card's primary reason for inclusion - combo piece). Adding on top of this the card by its own design continues to do the same conversion of resources on later turns as the turn you cast it (if at a slightly worse rate), meaning that Walking Ballista has unusually high diminishing returns after the 1st copy, not only "unfairly" but also when used "fairly". Piling this on top of the fact that the deck contains 5 tutors in 3 flavors that can search it out as it stands means that I've long been more than content with it as a main-deck singleton.

The reason I include this as a potential "soft spot" as the meta shifts, however, is because of what I suspect will be the increasing presence of Thalia, Guardian of Thraben (and also quite likely Phyrexian Revoker). Without access to a maindeck Karakas, Walking Ballista is pulling a lot of the weight in fending off these creatures pre-board, and I wonder if a single copy is still sufficient to provide Game 1 removal.

2x Remote Farm

Every single time I've played this card in a feature match on the Card Kingdom stream, someone from commentary has asked what the card was. It's certainly a card that sees no other play (although the red partner in the cycle does see 'Mono-Red Sneak' play, historically), but I've been running 2 Remote Farms for a couple months now as Sol-Lands 8 and 9, and I wanted to talk about them briefly.

Most of my early testing highlighted the manabase as the biggest immediate concern the deck had, and without Brainstorms or Ponders, the deck needed not only insulation from Wasteland but a higher % of keepable 7s. The best way I was able to accomplish this was by running 9 Sol-Lands with a 4-3-2 split between Tomb, City, and Farm. It's not only a card that provides natural White mana to make Auriok Salvagers ability to grind in isolation with a bauble stronger, but it simply represents more mana in-hand, which is exactly what the deck wants. It even allows for all Sol-Land keeps, as it reduces the amount of "Colorless" draws from 8 colorless Sol-Lands, and the tempo-loss playing it as your land Turn 1 is minimal compared to a 1-mana land in a deck with no 1-drops.

My concern with Remote Farm isn't actually Wasteland, directly. More mana packed into fewer lands is generally what I suspect I'll want moving forward, and the issues with playing a 4th City of Traitors vs Wasteland decks goes with little explanation.

The problem I'm actually thinking about is the possible upsurge in the representation of Miracles as control players move off of G/B decks and into Tundras, which would also mean a slight to moderate uptick in the number of Back to Basics to be found. The card is laughable against a Back to Basics. I should know. This has cost me a game before. At the end of the day I think that the major thing we need to be questioning right now are our mana-bases, and as the most obviously fringe part of the manabase I've been relying on, are the Remote Farms too much of a stretch in an era of increased manabase pressure? (And if so, what becomes the superior alternative in a deck this mana-hungry?)

--

Now Sideboards are probably going to undergo the biggest amount of revisions for every deck in the format, but sticking with the iterative approach for now, rather than building a new one from scratch, let me see how I can interrogate the sideboard for weak cards.

2x Manic Vandal

This isn't the most interesting soft-point, clearly, but I'm doing these in order as-written. So ... is 2x still worthwhile? They are tutorable. There are still plenty of high-priority targets I want to hit with these, but perhaps the 2nd one should be some more versatile effect. I still wish we had access to Reclamation Sage as a Human-Effect. Maybe if the mana-base ends up changing enough there's a possible future where it becomes worth looking at actual Reclamation Sage, as the 2nd Cavern/Territory can still name anything I want. I still don't think this is worth doing though, and an increased presence of Wasteland makes the proposition seem even sketchier.

1x Magus of the Disk

I've largely been playing with Magus of the Disk as a catch-all (oh, how I want a Human Rec-Sage) that can also generate card advantage specifically within the game of 'questions and answers' as it's generally permanents that get in our way, as well as deter opposing creature strategies. He is slow, removable, symmetrical, and 4-mana though. As much as I like having a tutorable "all permanents wrath" effect that can instantly clear most any board to then let me combo, he's definitely in the list of more questionable inclusions.

1x Surge Node

So. Surge Node.

It took me a LONG time to become confident that I wasn't just running this because it's cute, because the card is

(1.) Incredibly Narrow

(2.) Not Generally Playable in Magic as a Whole

(3.) Super Cute

(4.) In many ways Redundant with a much more 'Playable' card

Let's talk about it though. Opposing Chalice on 0, while you can still win through it, is very problematic for the deck without sufficient answers from the sideboard, and given that Chalice in Legacy helps define an entire archetype of decks, I think we're all on the same page here that we need to have a very good sideboard plan against this.

One of the advantages of playing the Unclaimed Territory build are that the Tutors (Imperial Recruiter / Trinket Mage) are absolutely great, particularly in a deck with no blue-cantrips. The ability to repurpose them as sideboard hate is something you have to take advantage of, and any singleton 'Trinket' has a large effect in increasing the lines available to you with Trinket Mage.

This brings us to point (4); Trinket Mage already has a tutorable answer to opposing Chalice, so why is this card not simply another EE, or something else entirely.

Well I can't answer the second point other to say "you really want to flip the Chalice match-up" and any 1-of card in the sideboard that significantly increases that percentage on its own is probably worth 1/15th of your board, but I can easily answer the first. Compared to EE, Surge Node

(A.) Represents Diversity in how you can answer a Chalice, making them harder to protect with Pithing/Revoker effects brought in against you for other reasons

(B.) You're playing with so many 0's yourself, you often Don't Want to clear the board of 0's with an EE because of the collateral damage

(C.) Surge Node is able to generate effective Card Advantage, in that it not only deals with the first Chalice, it deals with all subsequent Chalice unless the opponent wastes an answer on a card that has already taken out a Chalice.

(D.) Not only does it represent an answer to multiple Chalice across different turns, it also can generate effective Card Advantage by repurposing opposing Chalices to numbers that make them function as your own cards.

(E.) It is never not played in conjunction with Engineered Explosives, giving that card more versatility as it interacts favorably with it

(F.) Yes, it even has the ability to make opposing Aether Vials a lot more complicated to use optimally if for some other reason it comes in in a Vial match

The card has remained in my sideboard since I started testing with it not on the back of how cute it was, but because it legitimately and consistently performed well for me during test. That being said, we're here to shed our biases, and I'm not blind to the fact that the card is super-narrow ans is only there to answer one particular card (Chalice of the Void), so, if we have to name our soft-spots, I can't in good conscience not name this card as a questionable inclusion.

1x Sorcerous Spyglass

This feels like it needs to be a 2x if the meta moves like people are suggesting. That's all.

Well there you have it. That's where I'm starting from, and that's what pieces of this particular list look the most suspicious to me. If anyone has any extra insight, or wants to poke at their own WU / WB / Mono-W list that they developed from pre-ban testing, I'd be happy for the education. Other than that I guess we just wait for the bans to actually hit and then begin to test like crazy all over again.

[cosmiccoil]

Still, let's be real, Lands is a popular deck, and I do think there are a fair number of people right now who have it sleeved who simply haven't been playing it. (Full disclosure: I'm one of them)



I understand people worrying about an increase in Lands, but I honestly think it's not going to take off in popularity beyond people who switched off from it to possibly Turbo Depths or something else going back. I don't think an increase in graveyard hate bodes well for Lands, nor does an increase in DnT, which has, over the last year or so, really figured out how to approach the matchup (honestly Recruiter made this matchup so much better because a DnT player can leave vial on 3 up and then if the opponent doesn't combo they can just use Flickerwisp on a Recruiter and grab another Flickerwisp). I think think RUG Delver with its 4-7x untargetable threats and 4x Stifles is going to keep lands at bay pretty well. Plus more Storm will definitely hurt Lands as the matchup will always be very, very difficult for them.

[cosmiccoil]

I'm just throwing ideas on to the wall - could very well be right that no artifact lands is good. I was aiming to increase the probability of turn one Bob (because with artifact lands, Opals are an easier t1 source of mana) but I honestly have less experience with Bob-based builds than yourself and am happy to take your word for it. You are likely right, if you are running such an unstable mana base, you might as well just play the Humans build if Mox Opal is an non-issue.

That being said, I have been pleasantly surprised with how great UW has been with artifact lands (4 Seat, 4 Den). Mana felt a lot smoother and Opals did a lot of work.

I completely agree on the artifact lands (I run 7 in my B/W build and 8 in my U/W list).

Here is an opening line that having that many artifact lands really helps achieve:

Play artifact land, Bauble, Opal, Chalice. If it's not a wasteland deck, crack the Bauble on opponents turn.

That is a very low investment of resources and keeps a sol land unexposed to wasteland.

The redundancy is also great because it reduces the tension between maintaining metalcraft by not cracking a bauble or drawing deeper into the deck. It also keeps metalcraft enabled when wasteland is a factor by having more replacements.

It also helps drive up the size of the Karnstructs, which is a reasonable consideration.

When I was playing around with Board the Weatherlight, the increased number of artifact lands increased the probability of seeing one when I needed it.

The last benefit in U/W is being able to get either color of mana with a Trinket Mage for when the combo is in hand but there are only lands capable of producing three mana in play.

All in all, I don't really see that serious of a downside to an increased number in 2-color builds. I do think that gold lands are the only choice with 3+ colors. Obviously being able to play a fetch might insulate a land drop from wasteland, but that's about it, especially if the land being fetched is a dual anyways.

[Rationalist]

Obviously being able to play a fetch might insulate a land drop from wasteland, but that's about it, especially if the land being fetched is a dual anyways.

Is there any chance that T1 Stifles out of RUG Delver might also push the needle away from Fetch/Dual and towards Artifact Lands in WU/WB, or am I over-extrapolating?

[cosmiccoil]

Is there any chance that T1 Stifles out of RUG Delver might also push the needle away from Fetch/Dual and towards Artifact Lands in WU/WB, or am I over-extrapolating?

I don't think it's crazy to enter that into the equation. I was on a fetch build of B/W, U/W and U/B/W, and I really could not discern an advantage over either running gold lands (for the three-color build) or artifact lands. Less K-Commands (and zero turn-two K Commands) means there's less of a liability for artifact lands in two-color builds. Fetches open us up to Stifle and past the first fetch for a basic (which might be wrong in a lot of scenarios) it doesn't help that much with wasteland.

[Manroe]

So I know this question could be dependent on hand composition and etc, but in the humans build let's say you have a t1 Dark Confidant and your opponent was on the ay and swings in with a lackey. Are you taking the chance on letting it through?

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[Mr. Headshot]

So I know this question could be dependent on hand composition and etc, but in the humans build let's say you have a t1 Dark Confidant and your opponent was on the ay and swings in with a lackey. Are you taking the chance on letting it through?

I would block the lackey. A lackey that does combat damage to a player, is their strongest play.

[f7eleven]

So I know this question could be dependent on hand composition and etc, but in the humans build let's say you have a t1 Dark Confidant and your opponent was on the ay and swings in with a lackey. Are you taking the chance on letting it through?

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I would lean toward not blocking, as in your hand is either garbage and you need the draws to find anything to do, or your hand is very close to comboing... and you need the draws to find the missing piece. if you have a decent hand that's about to pump out some tokens, this is when I'd make the trade.

[Manroe]

This deck has me captivated. I'm always thinking of new things to try. In a UW artifact land version featuring Sai, is there a way to include Thoughtcast?

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[Rationalist]

[Important Takeaway (Humans): Beginning to suspect 1x Karn, 2x Quicksmith Rebel out of the board is a mistake, and should simply be 3x Quicksmith Rebel]

Definitely not the greatest showing Monday Night, ended up 2-2, but lessons learned. This puts me at 9-3 in the actual Monday Night events on the most recent set-up unless I'm miscounting.

Hadn't actually had a chance to play Bomberman v. RUG Delver before. Matchup seems fine. Mana denial is always a threat, but they only have so much and have trouble interacting well with the combo itself. Won G1, lost games 2 and 3, but in both of the latter games I was fishing for a missing combo piece for multiple turns that would have won the game through the presented disruption and just didn't assemble in time. Didn't get there, but nothing here seemed problematic.

Rounds 2 and 3 were Omnishow and Grixis Control. Grixis Control matches were a bit more fun, but no major notes here. Both matches were wins.

Round 4 was Death and Taxes. I had not lost the D&T matchup before to my memory and records, but they have so many tools against the deck that it had to happen eventually. Managed to take Game 1 by comboing off with Mentor as the payoff under Thalia (Loop LED at Mana Parity). Game 1 has traditionally been the harder game of the set, but even after taking it I just got blown out of the water Game 2, and after a lot of resource trading Game 3 while I was attempting to set up the combo in the background he played down a second Sword that once again matched up extremely well with the colors of my defenders and I got got by the unblockability.

Specifically the Red / Blue Sword into the Red/ White Sword to replace it felt a little nightmarish in how well they lined up against me, and I'm certainly hoping those two swords together aren't stock main-deck inclusions in this new environment. (If I was able to anticipate this, however, I could have tutored up the second Manic Vandal to answer the 2nd sword as well instead of the likely greedier Magus of the Disk. I don't know if this would have changed the outcome, but if I got to rewrite the timeline, that would probably be my first change.)

So here were my takeaways for the night:

(1) While they're not amazing matchups, neither of the two matchups that I lost tonight felt like abstract problems for the deck, and I'd happily play the matches against with little to no changes. If these are the big beneficiaries of the bannings, things don't seem that drastically different, and they both feel like they'll settle in the roughly even range. If the DnT stock list evolves in the new meta to be more problematic, or RUG Delver proves to be harder than it feels with more games under my belt, I'll reassess, but naive first impressions - I'd go out on a limb and guess there is neither cause to panic or cheer in response to the bannings on this front. (As long as Lands stays down)

(2) I feel like Karn in the sideboard should just be more Quicksmith Rebel.

Quicksmith Rebel has continually proven to be very good, and a bit of an incentive for a red-inclusive manabase. Like Karn, he's good at providing a clock. Unlike Karn, he's regularly uncounterable, provides a greater amount of reach, and as repeatable removal can answer one or more opposing hatebears which is a vital function. In a lot of the matchups where they would come in anyways, he also has the ability to generate card advantage like Karn as well. Also if D&T becomes more popular, getting a Quicksmith Rebel to stick usually ends things pretty quickly, and if they want to Revoker cards like Lodestone Bauble etc just to turn it off they're welcome to.

QR is just great, and it is becoming hard for me to generate a counter-argument in support of Karn at the Rebel's expense.

(3) I am not a superstitious man, but I will note that to memory so far this year I've had three memorable disappointing Monday Night results on this deck, my loss in all 3 of which were directly preceded by someone amicably saying something to the tune of "Oh man, I don't know how I can beat you". I'm beginning to suspect this may be some code for "I'm about to beat you".

On a less relevant and more personal note, one of my two sideboard Quicksmith Rebels, after not only eating a Swords to Plowshares before he could take over the board, was cruelly crushed by a rogue trade-binder after the 4th round. Luckily, the Promo Alt-Art Quicksmith Rebels are only 35 cents; still, he will be sorely missed and the wanton cruelty shown by his enemies (even after retiring to become a peaceful farmer, if one takes the card literally) will not soon be forgot.

[f7eleven]

In a UW artifact land version featuring Sai, is there a way to include Thoughtcast?


I've looked at it, but couldn't make it fit in the deck. you could go a basically mono-U version - though not sure the extra card draw is as good as Mentor, and you would have way fewer naturally drawn combo hands. it's probably barely enough blue to jam some FoW in the SB though (on par with the dredge blue card count that sometimes does the same)

something like this:

1 Ancient Den
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Karn, Scion of Urza
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lodestone Bauble
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Mox Opal
4 Sai, Master Thopterist
4 Thoughtcast
4 Trinket Mage
4 Urza's Bauble
1 Walking Ballista

[Manroe]

Hi everyone, just wanted to chime in and say CalebD went 5-0 in a mtgo league with a very vanilla mono-white list.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk

[f7eleven]

I had a couple 4-1's yesterday. Also caught CalebD playing it again last night: https://clips.twitch.tv/EnticingAgreeableTarsierBudStar

[Kaono]

This card's tension with Chalice probably means it won't immediately fit into this deck, but it seems insane with Sai just cranking out 4/4s every turn for 1 mana or as another inf mana sink

https://media.wizards.com/2018/c18/en_yTEiTVLVtY.png

Maybe this is a direction the UW build can go in with Sai, Trinket Mage and playing FoW and more 1-drops instead of CotV.

[cosmiccoil]

This card's tension with Chalice probably means it won't immediately fit into this deck, but it seems insane with Sai just cranking out 4/4s every turn for 1 mana or as another inf mana sink

https://media.wizards.com/2018/c18/en_yTEiTVLVtY.png

Maybe this is a direction the UW build can go in with Sai, Trinket Mage and playing FoW and more 1-drops instead of CotV.

FoW will never make sense when comboing involves discarding our hand.

[Manroe]

Caleb's Bomberman coverage starts shortly after 3 hours and 13 minutes in.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/287617315?t=03h13m26s

[Kaono]

https://227rsi2stdr53e3wto2skssd7xe-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Magus_of_the_Balance_EN.png

Call me crazy but I think we're the best deck in the format that can utilize this (if it even does get utilized). 1 LED and a sol land can activate it, and we drop our hand crazy quick/don't care if our artifacts hit the GY. It doesn't even affect artifacts so we can keep our chalices, and refill our hand with all our baubles, and aside from mentor (in which case we're probably just winning) we play few creatures.

I think if anything it'd be a sideboard card, but instant speed nuking opponents hand / wrathing the board / armageddon is no joke.

[ChemicalBurns]

https://227rsi2stdr53e3wto2skssd7xe-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Magus_of_the_Balance_EN.png

Call me crazy but I think we're the best deck in the format that can utilize this (if it even does get utilized). 1 LED and a sol land can activate it, and we drop our hand crazy quick/don't care if our artifacts hit the GY. It doesn't even affect artifacts so we can keep our chalices, and refill our hand with all our baubles, and aside from mentor (in which case we're probably just winning) we play few creatures.

I think if anything it'd be a sideboard card, but instant speed nuking opponents hand / wrathing the board / armageddon is no joke.

I like this over Magus of the Disk that Rationalist was playing. Seems great as a tutor bullet.

[Rationalist]

I like this over Magus of the Disk that Rationalist was playing. Seems great as a tutor bullet.

Magus of the Disk is definitely marginal and should look to be replaced. I would be happy to test this card (or most any suggested card) in its place.

The only parts of the sideboard I currently feel comfortable with (Full-Color Build) are 3x Quicksmith Rebel, 2x Sanctum Prelate, 2x Manic Vandal, 1x Containment Priest, 1x Sorcerous Spyglass, 1x Tormod's Crypt, 1x (Surge Node / EE). The remaining ~3rd of the sideboard could use some development, and I've been spending the past couple weeks trying to figure that out.

[Manroe]

Caleb is pretty deadset on no ensnaring bridge and straight mono white. I disagree on the bridges but he is better at this game than I. The deck feels more powerful either way, but I keep thinking about u/w or b/w.

Blue just for Sai and Trinket Mage doesn't seem worth it. Artificer's Intuition is interesting but likely not playable with trinket mage. Not sure.

Black works for Bob, freebooter, and what else?
I'd like to find some way in the 75 to repeatably kill. Executioner's Capsule? Big Improvise Demon (can't remember name but seems shitty)?

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk

[f7eleven]

I tried Ensnaring Bridge after learning firsthand it was nearly impossible to beat Eldrazi Stompy. Now I feel like the favorite in the matchup; they just can't beat that card. Also, Show and Tell can't remove a bridge through a chalice on 2 (Abrade, Echoing Truth). I was never sold on Swords to Plowshares in the board and have dropped them completely.

I liked Orzhov Pontiff in the BW deck before Karn came out. Casting non-human, colored spells isn't trivial, but I had a couple Collective Brutality in the board too.

I also think mono W is the best version though. I've enjoyed 1x Board the Weatherlight in the Lodestone Bauble/Mindstone slot online and thought about finding a space for one in the paper 60. I tested playing with 4x in a league and it was too slow and ate a lot of countermagic, but 1x feels really good.

FYI, it seems people are scooping to the combo much more often in MTGO leagues, which is so much appreciated. I think CalebD probably is to thank for this. I finally feel really good with my sideboard and that was only possible because I was able to play the deck online and try out many configurations.

[Rationalist]

Caleb is pretty deadset on no ensnaring bridge and straight mono white.

I'll concede that Mono White should probably be considered the stock list at this point, as it is clearly the most popular and most likely to attract the attention of new players to the deck, but I remain unconvinced. Would you be able to share precisely what he said that you're referencing, or bring forward your own arguments in its favor and correct my own flawed thinking?

Here are my basic skepticisms on the Mono-White list:

It's less consistent, it has a greedier mana-curve, it has more air / less gas, it's more susceptible to counterspells, and its bad Game 1 matchups are worse because it has trouble accessing its sideboard cards (the lists I've seen look extremely weak to a Chalice on 0 or a Trinisphere).

I've played around with it before and have yet to be convinced. I am perfectly happy to be proven wrong though. What am I missing that makes up for these shortcomings?

[Kaono]

Here are my basic skepticisms on the Mono-White list:

It's less consistent, it has a greedier mana-curve, it has more air / less gas, it's more susceptible to counterspells, and its bad Game 1 matchups are worse because it has trouble accessing its sideboard cards (the lists I've seen look extremely weak to a Chalice on 0 or a Trinisphere).

I've played around with it before and have yet to be convinced. I am perfectly happy to be proven wrong though. What am I missing that makes up for these shortcomings?

I'll attempt to address those skepticisms from my experience piloting mono-W:


It's less consistent

At assembling the combo, but it gains a more consistent back-up plan of grinding people out with ballistas or Karns. I think one draw of mono-W is reflective of how strong you believe ballista to be, since I've won a non-zero amount of games just by playing multiple ballistas and then riding them to victory.


it has a greedier mana-curve

Karn does make certain 4-drop heavy hands awkward, but the overall CMC of the mono-W build is still lower than the humans build. My personal experience has shown numerous times of having multiple 4-drops stranded in hand which is really annoying. Nothing worse than a hand of 2x Salvagers, Karn and then drawing another.


it's more susceptible to counterspells

Whereas humans is more susceptible to blood moon. I think it's a trade off and with 4x cavern I don't think either deck is that susceptible to counterspells.


and its bad Game 1 matchups are worse because it has trouble accessing its sideboard cards (the lists I've seen look extremely weak to a Chalice on 0 or a Trinisphere).

I believe that's the case because those lists aren't necessarily playing around those cards, they're just jamming. I believe a mono-w build could quite easily construct a build that is strong vs Chalice/Sphere, and that would involve more EE and more non-0-cmc dig cards like board the weatherlight.

That said, I don't think I would play this deck period in a chalice-heavy meta, so see the proposition of trying to do so as a losing one.


What am I missing that makes up for these shortcomings?

Karakas is a great card.

STP is a great sideboard card.

Mono-w can play prelate main to give a further edge vs combo.

Humans relies on spells-on-a-stick to shore up sb, whereas mono-w has cleaner answers like cast out / seal of cleansing. You're right that mono-w does have a harder time finding them, so sometimes mulligans are necessary.

Basic plains protects us from wasteland, blood moon, etc. I think humans build has a harder time with chalice on 0 + blood moon.

-------

So there it is. I don't think the humans build is worse than mono-w, I think they just operate very differently and have respective strengths and weaknesses.

[Rationalist]

It's probably worth pointing out that you're supporting a 'Basic Plains' build of the deck, while the Caleb Durward Mono-White list in question (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-w-53844#paper) plays no basic lands.


I think one draw of mono-W is reflective of how strong you believe ballista to be, since I've won a non-zero amount of games just by playing multiple ballistas and then riding them to victory.

This makes sense to me.



Karn does make certain 4-drop heavy hands awkward, but the overall CMC of the mono-W build is still lower than the humans build.

Only if you count Ballista as a 0-Drop. If you count it as it least a 2-drop, it definitely is Higher CMC.


I think humans build has a harder time with chalice on 0 + blood moon.

I don't think I agree here, even ignoring the "they're playing all non-basics as well" thing and altering the list so they're playing plains. In such a match up, sure, they're running at least 5 more lands that produce W through a Moon, but I'm still running 7 Red Creatures, 8 - 12 Artifact Sources, and more than triple the answers to Chalice on 0 (again, compared to the "stock" lists).

I'm having a hard time seeing them as having an easier time in the Moon Stompy matchup just by boarding in a Disenchant and a Cast Out and running 5 plains.


Mono-w can play prelate main to give a further edge vs combo.

Prelate's definitely great, but they don't even seem to be playing prelate, and that's something any Bomberman build could do equally well as long as they're not on like Sanctum of the Synod, so I don't really think that's in support of Mono-W specifically.



Karakas is a great card.

STP is a great sideboard card.

This is the other argument you put forth that does resonate well with me. If the argument is "You really want lots of Ballista, and you really want to Swords to Plowshares", than I don't know if I agree but that certainly resonates with me more than 4x Karn.


with 4x cavern I don't think either deck is that susceptible to counterspells.

Karn is though regardless of Cavern, in fact Cavern increases the likelihood of him meeting up with counter-magic. Although to be fair he doesn't die to creature removal, so it's not like Confidant isn't also vulnerable.


So there it is. I don't think the humans build is worse than mono-w, I think they just operate very differently and have respective strengths and weaknesses.

I'm still mixed on some of the arguments presented, but thanks for presenting them. Mono-White has become popular enough that I think I needed the reality check to make sure I'm not being overly biased.

[Kaono]

Only if you count Ballista as a 0-Drop. If you count it as it least a 2-drop, it definitely is Higher CMC.

No, that's counting Ballista as a 2-drop. If you've changed your list since the last one you posted it may be different, but the decklists are the same aside from:

mono-w:
1 Mishra's Bauble (0)
1 Sanctum Prelate (3)
2 Karn (4)
3 Walking Ballista (2)
1 EE (cmc averaged at 1.5)

for total of avg cmc of 2.31

humans:
4 Dark Confidant (2)
2 Imperial Recruiter (3)
2 Trinket Mage (3)

for total avg cmc of 2.5

Since the rest of the deck is identical that puts mono-w at lower avg cmc. Even 3 Karn build is at 2.43. If you treat EE as 2 drop in 3 karn build cmc is exactly the same. But I agree avg cmc aside the curve considerations are real. Having more 0-2 drops to cast doesn't help you cast 4 drops.


I don't think I agree here, even ignoring the "they're playing all non-basics as well" thing and altering the list so they're playing plains. In such a match up, sure, they're running at least 5 more lands that produce W through a Moon, but I'm still running 7 Red Creatures, 8 - 12 Artifact Sources, and more than triple the answers to Chalice on 0 (again, compared to the "stock" lists).

I mean in a general sense of the deck operating at all. Mono-w can ignore a blood moon and carry on with its plans whereas humans needs an artifact mana source to do anything. Maybe you're more content to just find a Quicksmith Rebel and switch gears than I understand.


I'm having a hard time seeing them as having an easier time in the Moon Stompy matchup just by boarding in a Disenchant and a Cast Out and running 5 plains.

Yeah I think the Durward build is very suboptimal for mono-w and his sideboard is imo egregiously bad.

[Rationalist]

No, that's counting Ballista as a 2-drop. If you've changed your list since the last one you posted it may be different, but the decklists are the same aside from:

mono-w:
1 Mishra's Bauble (0)
1 Sanctum Prelate (3)
2 Karn (4)
3 Walking Ballista (2)
1 EE (cmc averaged at 1.5)

for total of avg cmc of 2.31

humans:
4 Dark Confidant (2)
2 Imperial Recruiter (3)
2 Trinket Mage (3)

for total avg cmc of 2.5

Since the rest of the deck is identical that puts mono-w at lower avg cmc. Even 3 Karn build is at 2.43. If you treat EE as 2 drop in 3 karn build cmc is exactly the same. But I agree avg cmc aside the curve considerations are real. Having more 0-2 drops to cast doesn't help you cast 4 drops.


Gotch'ya. I was comparing it to the 4x Karn list that has become popular.



Yeah I think the Durward build is very suboptimal for mono-w and his sideboard is imo egregiously bad.

This might be why I'm being too skeptical. I've been seeing more people drift towards his list, and that's what I'm reacting to with some confusion.

Prelate and Two Karns seems much more like a Mainboard I'd like to be on, and if I heard a lot of people saying that was the best configuration, I think I'd more easily believe that.

[Kaono]

Gotch'ya. I was comparing it to the 4x Karn list that has become popular.

Apologies, I'm only responding from my personal experience with the mono-w build and I had quickly shifted away from 4 Karn after 1 league probably for the same reasons you dislike him.


This might be why I'm being too skeptical. I've been seeing more people drift towards his list, and that's what I'm reacting to with some confusion.
Prelate and Two Karns seems much more like a Mainboard I'd like to be on, and if I heard a lot of people saying that was the best configuration, I think I'd more easily believe that.

Caleb being Caleb probably explains some of the popularity surrounding his list. I think as-is it's inferior to the humans build.

I believe I'm skeptical of the humans build because I view tutoring answers as a negative (waste a tutor/mana on getting an answer) than a positive (have an answer to any problem). I should play with it more, but it's hard to pilot something that is at odds with my playstyle.

Once C18 comes out I will be back with the mono-w build at weeklies to play around with Magus of the Balance.

[Rationalist]

So I think Kaono has underlined something important in the conversation here.

For those not wanting to scroll back, Manroe referenced Caleb Durward being adamantly on Mono W, I expressed some skepticism directed at "The Mono White List", Kaono defended "Mono White" builds, and it became clear he was defending a rather different list than Caleb's "Mono White List", which he said he thought was very sub-optimal.

I think going forward, at least personally, I might want to amend my vocabulary here

Karn List -> (Mono W, Arifact Lands, 4x Karn)

Prelate White -> (Basic Plains, Karn / Prelate)

Humans -> (Confidant, Tutors, Unclaimed Territory)

UW -> (Sai, Trinket Mage)

UB -> (Confidant)

I'm currently a bit skeptical of The Karn List, which is what Caleb Durward was on to my most recent knowledge.

A "Prelate White" list, on the other hand, I don't share the same skepticism of.

Is there anyone here who is an adamant proponent of The Karn List who wants to speak to its advantages?

[Rationalist]

Caleb being Caleb probably explains some of the popularity surrounding his list. I think as-is it's inferior to the humans build.

I believe I'm skeptical of the humans build because I view tutoring answers as a negative (waste a tutor/mana on getting an answer) than a positive (have an answer to any problem). I should play with it more, but it's hard to pilot something that is at odds with my playstyle.

I haven't had any mana or tempo issues in the deck (EDIT: Of this sort. I have been Ghost Quartered to death), given that it's a Sol-Land + Opal + Petal deck that also turns on LED for practical use if need be.

That being said I'm not really trying to push it on other people. I have no problem with people being skeptical of my lists - if anything that generates useful criticisms - I just don't want to be undue-ly skeptical of other people's lists, because that's represents me being sub-optimal in a way that's harder to detect and correct on my own. :wink:

Also the Sideboard definitely needs a tune-up, and I'm currently experimenting with a couple Warping Wail, particularly because they do double duty in a Sneak/Show world where Arcane Artisan is the new toy.

Thanks for the criticisms and counter-arguments.

EDIT:


Apologies, I'm only responding from my personal experience with the mono-w build and I had quickly shifted away from 4 Karn after 1 league probably for the same reasons you dislike him.

It's all good; thanks for clarifying. :smile:

[f7eleven]

I love 4x Karn! I think CalebD should swap his two Horizon Canopy for another Karakas and a basic Plains, though. And I'm still running 1x Board the Weatherlight in the Lodestone slot when playing online, as the 5th Karn or a single card that double triggers Mentor.

Went undefeated at a $1K yesterday, had some interesting plays during the tourney:

- went off "low tide" drawing down to 4 cards left in library with Urza's Bauble before getting Salvagers needled. I had boarded out the Mentors and didn't bring in the Seals/Disenchant, so played a Karn and all the artifacts including Chalice on 2 for the shatter in his hand and a Ballista to take care of his two creatures. Won with a 20/20 construct with 2 cards left in the deck.

- upticked Karn in a single match more than I had upticked him in all my previous matches combined (FYI, you hardly ever uptick Karn, maybe this is why you guys don't get 4x Karn, you're going up too much). The matchup was Pox and putting a single, 0-cmc creature into play vs so many edicts and Ratchet Bombs seemed worthless. Karn singlehandedly won it for me. It was certainly nice being able to immediately replace each Karn he was actually able to remove.

- game 3 of a win-and-in match vs Sneak and Show, on the play, I went turn-1 Tomb, Petal, Opal, LED, Salvagers, Portuguese Lodestone Bauble to force 100 draws during his first upkeep. The confusion was so tasty. I highly recommend picking up a non-english Lodestone Bauble.

My sideboard for the tourney was:
- 3x Containment Priest
- 4x Ethersworn Canonist
- 3x Ensnaring Bridge
- 2x Tormod's Crypt
- 2x Seal of Cleansing
- 1x Disenchant

I don't understand the opinion of the 52-card deck with all 4-of's list being less consistent, or being worse vs counter magic. Turn-1 Chalice is something they have to deal with. Turn 1 or 2 Mentor is something they have to deal with (and is sometimes uncounterable, too). Turn 2 or 3 Karn is something they have to deal with. And if they manage to deal with all of these, they have nothing left and you just combo them afterward.

MonoR Stompy seems to be dropping meta-share and Eldrazi Stompy simply can't beat Ensnaring Bridge. Sure, there's a few other low-tier Chalice decks, but what're you going to do. You cannot convince me that Manic Vandal and untutorable Quicksmith Rebels over Disenchants vastly improve your Chalice/Trinisphere matchups. Fiery Confluence is the card that wrecks us the most anyway since it deals with any and every threat we could produce, same as humans.

Moving on, I was thinking about a Winter Orb or two in the board for Miracles, but I could see Balance Wizard being insane, and I want to try him out. "Deal with this uncounterable guy immediately, or you're going to be discarding 4 cards and sacrificing most your lands!"

[cris_rj]

I love 4x Karn! I think CalebD should swap his two Horizon Canopy for another Karakas and a basic Plains, though. And I'm still running 1x Board the Weatherlight in the Lodestone slot when playing online, as the 5th Karn or a single card that double triggers Mentor.

Went undefeated at a $1K yesterday, had some interesting plays during the tourney:

- went off "low tide" drawing down to 4 cards left in library with Urza's Bauble before getting Salvagers needled. I had boarded out the Mentors and didn't bring in the Seals/Disenchant, so played a Karn and all the artifacts including Chalice on 2 for the shatter in his hand and a Ballista to take care of his two creatures. Won with a 20/20 construct with 2 cards left in the deck.

- upticked Karn in a single match more than I had upticked him in all my previous matches combined (FYI, you hardly ever uptick Karn, maybe this is why you guys don't get 4x Karn, you're going up too much). The matchup was Pox and putting a single, 0-cmc creature into play vs so many edicts and Ratchet Bombs seemed worthless. Karn singlehandedly won it for me. It was certainly nice being able to immediately replace each Karn he was actually able to remove.

- game 3 of a win-and-in match vs Sneak and Show, on the play, I went turn-1 Tomb, Petal, Opal, LED, Salvagers, Portuguese Lodestone Bauble to force 100 draws during his first upkeep. The confusion was so tasty. I highly recommend picking up a non-english Lodestone Bauble.

My sideboard for the tourney was:
- 3x Containment Priest
- 4x Ethersworn Canonist
- 3x Ensnaring Bridge
- 2x Tormod's Crypt
- 2x Seal of Cleansing
- 1x Disenchant

I don't understand the opinion of the 52-card deck with all 4-of's list being less consistent, or being worse vs counter magic. Turn-1 Chalice is something they have to deal with. Turn 1 or 2 Mentor is something they have to deal with (and is sometimes uncounterable, too). Turn 2 or 3 Karn is something they have to deal with. And if they manage to deal with all of these, they have nothing left and you just combo them afterward.

MonoR Stompy seems to be dropping meta-share and Eldrazi Stompy simply can't beat Ensnaring Bridge. Sure, there's a few other low-tier Chalice decks, but what're you going to do. You cannot convince me that Manic Vandal and untutorable Quicksmith Rebels over Disenchants vastly improve your Chalice/Trinisphere matchups. Fiery Confluence is the card that wrecks us the most anyway since it deals with any and every threat we could produce, same as humans.

Moving on, I was thinking about a Winter Orb or two in the board for Miracles, but I could see Balance Wizard being insane, and I want to try him out. "Deal with this uncounterable guy immediately, or you're going to be discarding 4 cards and sacrificing most your lands!"


Can you describe your side in/out plan ?

[Rationalist]

I love 4x Karn! (...) And I'm still running 1x Board the Weatherlight in the Lodestone slot when playing online, as the 5th Karn (...)

You're definitely the ideal advocate in this thread for Karn than. On a side note though, I do like seeing Board the Weatherlight actually seeing competitive play, as I think it's definitely the most charming card that's come up in this thread.



Went undefeated at a $1K yesterday

Congrats!


(FYI, you hardly ever uptick Karn, maybe this is why you guys don't get 4x Karn, you're going up too much).

I can never claim to pilot anything perfectly, so I can't completely discount the "I'm not using Karn apprioriately" argument. I have used him a fair bit to success however, as has Kaono, and while I can't speak for him I do understand that his primary draw is a big dumb beater factory. I have won several games going T1 Chalice into T2 Karn, make a 4/4. T3 Make a 5/5, Opponent Scoops.

So I do not suspect my issues with running 4 of him maindeck are because I'm simply to hesitant to have him crank out the constructs, and at least based on the sound of it that's not Kaono's (or even cosmiccoil's a few pages back) either.



I don't understand the opinion of the 52-card deck with all 4-of's list being less consistent, or being worse vs counter magic

This is two issues, so let's break them apart, and first deal with "consistency".

"Consistency" is a bit of a vague concept we like to throw around without rigorously defining, obviously. Consistently ... do what? Clearly by having all 4-of's you'll more consistently have them in hand. On the other hand my 4x Grindstone, Painter, Splinter Twin, Deceiver Exarch, Lightning Bolt, Lava Spike deck with no draw or tutors obviously meets our definition of "inconsistent", so it's more than just reducing the names on the table of cards we could draw, it's also the combinatorics of how those cards come together.

So here is how I see Karn (in his role as a downtick engine - he can also uptick, but as you stated that's not 'what you're using him for').

He's a huge slab of muscle. He's going to take some games you were going to lose on the margins to card quality, and turn them into wins. He's also going to take some games that were going to be close, and turn them into huge shut-outs in your favor. He often represents a pair of slow Reality Smashers, or better. No one here is calling him a "bad card" (again, except for maybe cosmiccoil a few pages back, but even that doesn't strike me as fair representation).

But when it comes to consistency, here is how I also see Karn - In this context, he's the 8th 4-Drop in a deck very susceptible to Wasteland / Mana Denial. He's Legendary. And on a hand without critical mass of Artifacts, those Masters of Etherium he's dropping can look much, much less impressive, assuming he even gets to survive to make the 2nd.

I'm not denying he's powerful, the "thing he does" is great; but simultaneously, I don't think there's a lot of question that with respect to how consistently Karn is able to perform "at his best", with just the variable nature of what else is there to back him up, I think the shorthand for Karn's effect on the deck is quite clearly +Power (Fair) - Consistency. There are more "bad hands" that you can put Karn in to make him look like a waste of a card than most other cards in the deck; there's just a quantifiably greater number of things you need to plug into him to get that output.

So, I think calling a 4x Karn build more "inconsistent" than other options is a fair assessment. That doesn't automatically make it worse (I'd rather have a tank 30% of the time than two twigs at 60% in most instances), but as to not "understanding how a deck of all 4-of's" can be seen as less consistent than something else, I don't think that's actually that hard to see, particularly when you're comparing them to tutors.

Okay, so now let's talk about "Counterability".

A basic reality about this deck is that it's a lot of air and a key selection of Critical Threats. Because of Cavern of Souls, sometimes your opponent is unable to trade their counterspell for your Critical Threat. Because he's not a Human, Karn simply increases the opportunities your opponent has to do this.

... That's it. It's not a deal-breaker, but I think it's a pretty simple criticism, so I don't really understand how you're failing to see this as a dimension of the card.

Leaning so heavily on Karn simply is making the deck more inconsistent and more susceptible to counter-magic. Again, that's not all it's doing, you are getting rewarded as well, but even if you think it's a worthwhile trade I believe you should recognize this, as your statement above wasn't an argument for his strengths, but simply a claim not to recognize his drawbacks.



You cannot convince me that Manic Vandal and untutorable Quicksmith Rebels over Disenchants vastly improve your Chalice/Trinisphere matchups. Fiery Confluence is the card that wrecks us the most anyway since it deals with any and every threat we could produce, same as humans.

Let's go back to context here.

The argument was not "Oh man, Moon Stompy is a pushover if you do this". The argument was simply that running the Mono-White Karn List did not represent a notable improvement, as I was searching for the incentives to play Mono-White Karn in light of its drawbacks.

Based on the post above (You'll forgive me for not taking the time to go back to your stream archive to get your exact current list), you're on 3 Disenchant Effects, and 1 Plains. That's 3 answers to a Chalice on 0, and only 1 extra source of the mana to cast them under a Blood Moon. If I'm boarding in at least 2 Vandals and 1 answer off of Trinket Mage (a repeatable one, no less), than including tutors I'm running 7 answers to a Chalice on 0, most of which are completely unaffected by a Blood Moon.

Yes, you are putting yourself in a position to be significantly worse at answering an opposing Chalice. In fact, your density of Chalice answers is less than the opponent's presumable density of Chalice, and I'm representing more than double the density of answers that you are.

Again, this doesn't mean that you're list is "wrong" in the big picture, but the question at hand that you are addressing was me failing to find a Moon Stompy based incentive to run the 4-Karn build. I think that still stands, I think the build I'm running compared to the 4-Karn builds to is simply better at answering Chalice of the Void, and despite the fact "I can't convince you", I don't think that's a very hard defense to make.

I'm not saying it's a great match-up, but yes, I'd rather have 7 answers and a bunch of Red Beaters - some of which are not stopped by an opposing Ensnaring Bridge, than a Plains, 3 Disenchants, and 4 Karn producing tokens quite easily stopped by a Bridge. You're right, Fiery Confluence is still a wrecking ball against me; frankly, I think it's a pretty big wrecking ball period, but I'm not evaluating the match-up as a whole. I'm just trying to identify the incentives of playing the 4x Karn Caleb style list, and judging these topics in isolation to find them.

And I stand by the conclusion that the 4x Karn List is all the things you're saying you don't recognize. It's less consistent, it's more vulnerable to counterspells, and it is weaker against many of its bad matchups, such as Moon Stompy.

This doesn't mean it's worse; I can name strengths as well. You know what Disenchant is great against that Humans with ETB effects are not? The card Humility. Also Karn - still a powerhouse.

My skepticism comes from this - At a basic level, I feel like the 4x Karn lists are trying to be a Better Eldrazi deck (not than Eldrazi, I mean than the other Bomberman lists); it's trying to out-muscle a lot of the other decks. Trying to find the best way to do that is valid choice, and you'll definitely win some games you would have otherwise lost, but at the same time, devoting more of the deck to expensive, legendary Eldrazi-Factories comes with some very real drawbacks (obviously, otherwise decks list Eldrazi Stompy would be far more prevalent).

I think running Karn maindeck is justifiable. It's not what I currently do, but depending on which games you're trying to win at the cost of which other games, I think it's easy to make the argument for it. If all the games you might play exist on a 2 dimensional plane, adding Karn, much like any other card, is just saying I want to improve my numbers with the games over here in this corner, at the cost of making me weaker in these other games over here. My skepticism comes from the fact that I see the drawbacks that it presents as clear enough that when you're, let's say, at 2x or 3x Karn maindeck, and you say "What I need is more Karn. I really, really want to overpower and win these games over here", that the marginal returns you're getting seem to get more overshadowed by the points of weakness you're letting become more and more prominent that you might not be seeing.

What then fails to alleviate my skepticism however is not your profession of love for Karn (the card is clearly powerful), or your results (as stated earlier, we're all talking about the same Core deck here which is good, and you simply being a good player and playing well will often overshadow the small nuances of the last dozen spell slots in the deck as long as those choices are reasonable), but the fact that when the topic is put to you, rather than talking up the value of Karn's strengths, or contextualizing the drawbacks as minimal, you effectively state that you don't see the drawbacks or "understand" how people could claim they are there. ... which is exactly the scenario my skepticism is resting in.

So I thank you for your defense (and I love hearing that you're running a Board the Weatherlight), but respectfully I don't really think you really addressed any of Karn's strengths or weaknesses in any real detail, or did a lot to alleviate the Karnskepticism.

EDIT: However, I admittedly don't want to actually convince you as much as encourage a more rigorous defense, because I don't want you stop playing a Board the Weatherlight and making Historic a real characteristic in Legacy, which remains awesome.

[Rationalist]

(Responding to f7eleven) Can you describe your side in/out plan ?

I don't know when he'll log on next, but f7eleven streams on Twitch under the same name, so you could always just go check out his archived footage if you're looking for how he runs his list.

[f7eleven]

I can see how I came off dickish without any real "meat" behind my claims, other than the fact that I've been on a heater with my version of the deck.

Sorry.

Also, it's really cool you've noticed the stream. I just started doing that, mostly because I wanted people to point out my mistakes (which has happened and I am glad for it). I don't think I'm setup for archives, unless that happens automatically, but I'll look into it.

Why I love Karn:
Karn doesn't just make slow beaters... he makes the biggest beaters. Constructs that out class Gurmag Angler and Goyf in combat. The more you -2 Karn, the better all the Constructs become because they all pump each other. When I'm on the Karn -2 plan I stop cracking baubles, I prioritize playing Ancient Dens over other lands, I go -2/-2 with a Karn then legend rule him and go -2 again.

Constructs eat Terminus's, Abrupt Decays, StP's, Ancient Grudges, Fatal Pushes, Disenchants.. all things that don't actually deal with Karn himself. Karn still gets to dig for value/combo pieces and/or make more Constructs.

Karn replaced Dark Confidant 1-for-1 and the manabase was updated accordingly, so Dark Confidant is what I am comparing Karn to in my head. Dark Confidant was AMAZING in the deck - your opponents (especially those unfamiliar with the list) would tilt themselves as you took 0 after 0 from his flips. But he ate those same Decays, StP's and Pushes while only chipping in for a little bit of damage... An untouched Bob certainly contributed to winning the game, finding missing combo pieces or fuel for Mentor, but an untouched Bob was rare, and he certainly never won games singlehandedly - the way Karn can/does.

Have you ever top decked a Karn and -1'd and cracked LED, using the WWW to cast a previously exiled Salvagers for the win? It feels so good!! It might never happen again, but casting stuff under Karn WITH Lion's Eye Diamond isn't too uncommon and neither is the opponent choosing to exile Salvagers on a Karn +1. I, of course, will also top deck Karn more often than those on less than 4x.

You know what Karn's +1 is really the best at though? A: Finding lands. So being a deck so susceptible to Wasteland makes Karn better, not worse, right? :tongue:

Reasons to not love Karn, I suppose:
You side him out vs unfair matchups. If we were playing vs more unfair matchups than fair, we'd probably rather have Dark Confidants (or Tangle Wire!). He comes out vs fair decks too if they're going wide - Constructs can be pretty lousy vs Elves, for instance.

It was lost on me that your Chalice answers are playable through Chalice + Moon. But if I'm facing a lot of Chalice + Moon then I'm putting this deck down until that stops happening. That said, my out to Chalice + Moon (other than the single basic) is, wait for it... Karn, lol.

Every non-Karn, non-Chalice spell in the deck is either likely never to be targeted with a counterspell (baubles/mana), or is a creature potentially unable to be countered due to Cavern. This means Karn is going to be countered more than the other spells in the deck. Cool (https://media.giphy.com/media/NvgkEvycaWhPi/giphy.gif). I mitigate this by playing the full set of Karn rather than replacing Karn with more potentially uncounterable spells. I'm arguing more for people to go up on Karns, not to add them to a deck that isn't playing any.

Board the Weatherlight is fun. But I still advocate a Lodestone Bauble over it when playing in paper.

[Rationalist]

I can see how I came off dickish without any real "meat" behind my claims, other than the fact that I've been on a heater with my version of the deck.

Sorry.

No worries; it's all cool.



Also, it's really cool you've noticed the stream. I just started doing that, mostly because I wanted people to point out my mistakes (which has happened and I am glad for it). I don't think I'm setup for archives, unless that happens automatically, but I'll look into it.

I think it does? Someone can correct me if I'm wrong.



Why I love Karn:
Karn doesn't just make slow beaters... he makes the biggest beaters. Constructs that out class Gurmag Angler and Goyf in combat. The more you -2 Karn, the better all the Constructs become because they all pump each other. When I'm on the Karn -2 plan I stop cracking baubles, I prioritize playing Ancient Dens over other lands, I go -2/-2 with a Karn then legend rule him and go -2 again.

Constructs eat Terminus's, Abrupt Decays, StP's, Ancient Grudges, Fatal Pushes, Disenchants.. all things that don't actually deal with Karn himself. Karn still gets to dig for value/combo pieces and/or make more Constructs.

Karn replaced Dark Confidant 1-for-1 and the manabase was updated accordingly, so Dark Confidant is what I am comparing Karn to in my head. Dark Confidant was AMAZING in the deck - your opponents (especially those unfamiliar with the list) would tilt themselves as you took 0 after 0 from his flips. But he ate those same Decays, StP's and Pushes while only chipping in for a little bit of damage... An untouched Bob certainly contributed to winning the game, finding missing combo pieces or fuel for Mentor, but an untouched Bob was rare, and he certainly never won games singlehandedly - the way Karn can/does.

Alright, here's the meat! You're saying Karn is resilient. That makes sense to me.

Karn doesn't die to plow, Confidant does (assuming no Chalice). They both die to bolt, but Karn gets value before that happens (again, no Chalice). Karn dies more often to Countermagic, but Confidant does sometimes too depending on the draw. Karn dies to pressure, but again, that's a sometimes and even then he gets value before he does. Karn gets to chuckle at an Abrupt Decay.

This is a good point in his favor.



Have you ever top decked a Karn and -1'd and cracked LED, using the WWW to cast a previously exiled Salvagers for the win? It feels so good!!

No, but I did cast a Sanctum Prelate off of Karn + LED against Greg Mitchell on Bizarro Storm, so I've seen him turn on an LED similar to how the tutors do. It is a good synergy.



You know what Karn's +1 is really the best at though? A: Finding lands. So being a deck so susceptible to Wasteland makes Karn better, not worse, right? :tongue:

Mmmm ... no. I think he's worse than Confidant in dealing with mana problems, for a couple reasons, so this argument I'm pretty sure you know this argument is a stretch. The resiliency one is still good though.



It was lost on me that your Chalice answers are playable through Chalice + Moon. But if I'm facing a lot of Chalice + Moon then I'm putting this deck down until that stops happening. That said, my out to Chalice + Moon (other than the single basic) is, wait for it... Karn, lol.

Well yeah, I wasn't so much talking myself up in the matchup as trying to eliminate the possible Karn incentives, and "against Blood Moon" is the traditional argument for making a deck mono-color.

I don't think Karn-structs are where you really want to be against an Ensnaring Bridge, though.



Board the Weatherlight is fun. But I still advocate a Lodestone Bauble over it when playing in paper.

Yeah, I picked up on the fact you specifically noted it as an MTGO replacement, which is almost certainly right, but a bit of a shame.

--

Anyways, highlighting Karn's resiliency did slightly lessen my Karn-skepticism, so thank you for that. It's not entirely gone, but you're giving acclaim to an aspect of Karn I could easily believe I'm under-valuing.

Also, this all was started by Monroe's claim on the last page that Caleb Durward was "deadset" on Mono-White, and sussing out what was so critically important about the choice. Given that as I write this, Caleb Durward is streaming with a UW build that at first glance seems to look much like Sean Brown's Blue Sai list, I'm currently reading that assertion as actually more Monroe's characterization than Caleb's.

[Manroe]

No worries; it's all cool.



I think it does? Someone can correct me if I'm wrong.



Alright, here's the meat! You're saying Karn is resilient. That makes sense to me.

Karn doesn't die to plow, Confidant does (assuming no Chalice). They both die to bolt, but Karn gets value before that happens (again, no Chalice). Karn dies more often to Countermagic, but Confidant does sometimes too depending on the draw. Karn dies to pressure, but again, that's a sometimes and even then he gets value before he does. Karn gets to chuckle at an Abrupt Decay.

This is a good point in his favor.



No, but I did cast a Sanctum Prelate off of Karn + LED against Greg Mitchell on Bizarro Storm, so I've seen him turn on an LED similar to how the tutors do. It is a good synergy.



Mmmm ... no. I think he's worse than Confidant in dealing with mana problems, for a couple reasons, so this argument I'm pretty sure you know this argument is a stretch. The resiliency one is still good though.



Well yeah, I wasn't so much talking myself up in the matchup as trying to eliminate the possible Karn incentives, and "against Blood Moon" is the traditional argument for making a deck mono-color.

I don't think Karn-structs are where you really want to be against an Ensnaring Bridge, though.



Yeah, I picked up on the fact you specifically noted it as an MTGO replacement, which is almost certainly right, but a bit of a shame.

--

Anyways, highlighting Karn's resiliency did slightly lessen my Karn-skepticism, so thank you for that. It's not entirely gone, but you're giving acclaim to an aspect of Karn I could easily believe I'm under-valuing.

Also, this all was started by Monroe's claim on the last page that Caleb Durward was "deadset" on Mono-White, and sussing out what was so critically important about the choice. Given that as I write this, Caleb Durward is streaming with a UW build that at first glance seems to look much like Sean Brown's Blue Sai list, I'm currently reading that assertion as actually more Monroe's characterization than Caleb's.

This is pretty awesome that he is doing U/W. Maybe he changed his mind!

[Rationalist]

This is pretty awesome that he is doing U/W. Maybe he changed his mind!

Possibly.

Alternatively, he could just be continuing to experiment with what amounts to the cards outside the core of an archetype that does not have a plethora of data in a currently still adapting metagame. :tongue:

[f7eleven]

Can you describe your side in/out plan ?

I don't have a guide for multiple matchups, just some common sense things I've been doing:
- Karn comes out vs unfair decks and the appropriate hate comes in.
- Ballista gets shaved (when I say "shave" I mean cutting one or two copies) when he's not good on his own, like vs Miracles.
- Chalice comes out vs other Chalice decks, obv.
- I'll shave Urza's Baubles when I need to find room.
- I'll cut a land when I need to find room and they don't have Wastelands - a Karakas or Cavern if one is not relevant in the matchup.
- I almost never cut Lodestone Bauble since anyone can bring in Surgical or Needles.
- I don't shave Chalices vs decks you might not think they're great against (BUG w/ Decays, Grixis w/ KCommands) because they'll be bringing in Surgical/Needle for sure.
- I don't like having Chalice in my deck vs D&T. They don't have cantrips or Snapcasters, and I'd rather work my way through/around their StP's than let them flicker a Chalice.
- When I bring in Bridges vs Reanimator/Show and Tell, I prioritize Chalice on 2 for their Abrades, Echoing Truths, Wear//Tear (Tidespout Tyrant hoses this, but they have 8 2-drop reanimation spells and 4 1-drop reanimation spells).
- On MTGO only, I'll cut the Salvagers and LED's when they've not scooped to the combo in earlier games and I don't have the time on my clock to click through another combo kill.

I've been thinking about cutting Mentors vs RUG Delver - 2x Sulfur Elemental is becoming the standard. I'll be trying it next time I play the matchup

I've been boarding very little vs Miracles, but have noticed this matchup is more dependant on the skill of the Miracles player. A very good Miracles player is hard to beat. I'm going to try 1-2 Winter Orbs in the board next league. I also want to test bringing in all the Ethersworn Canonists vs them. I don't know if that's good or not, but I'll find out.

[cris_rj]

I don't have a guide for multiple matchups, just some common sense things I've been doing:
- Karn comes out vs unfair decks and the appropriate hate comes in.
- Ballista gets shaved (when I say "shave" I mean cutting one or two copies) when he's not good on his own, like vs Miracles.
- Chalice comes out vs other Chalice decks, obv.
- I'll shave Urza's Baubles when I need to find room.
- I'll cut a land when I need to find room and they don't have Wastelands - a Karakas or Cavern if one is not relevant in the matchup.
- I almost never cut Lodestone Bauble since anyone can bring in Surgical or Needles.
- I don't shave Chalices vs decks you might not think they're great against (BUG w/ Decays, Grixis w/ KCommands) because they'll be bringing in Surgical/Needle for sure.
- I don't like having Chalice in my deck vs D&T. They don't have cantrips or Snapcasters, and I'd rather work my way through/around their StP's than let them flicker a Chalice.
- When I bring in Bridges vs Reanimator/Show and Tell, I prioritize Chalice on 2 for their Abrades, Echoing Truths, Wear//Tear (Tidespout Tyrant hoses this, but they have 8 2-drop reanimation spells and 4 1-drop reanimation spells).
- On MTGO only, I'll cut the Salvagers and LED's when they've not scooped to the combo in earlier games and I don't have the time on my clock to click through another combo kill.

I've been thinking about cutting Mentors vs RUG Delver - 2x Sulfur Elemental is becoming the standard. I'll be trying it next time I play the matchup

I've been boarding very little vs Miracles, but have noticed this matchup is more dependant on the skill of the Miracles player. A very good Miracles player is hard to beat. I'm going to try 1-2 Winter Orbs in the board next league. I also want to test bringing in all the Ethersworn Canonists vs them. I don't know if that's good or not, but I'll find out.



Do you always side in seal of cleaning/disenchant in 2/3 match ? I saw you use 4 cannonists in sb. They are good only in storm/elf meta, right ?

[f7eleven]

Do you always side in seal of cleaning/disenchant in 2/3 match ? I saw you use 4 cannonists in sb. They are good only in storm/elf meta, right ?

Disenchants don't always come in, no. I don't like them vs Sneak and Show for instance. They're for Chalices, Needle effects, and Equipment.

Storm is more popular online than IRL, but it's not a good matchup. You need to have SOMETHING to slow them down (Chalice or Canonist) and then win quickly. If you're on Prelate, that's also good vs them, but harder to cast turn-1. The Tormod's Crypts can come in vs ANT (for PiF and Cabal Ritual) but they're worthless vs TES. I have played my own Chalice on 0 vs Storm at least a few times - not something I'd recommend defaulting to, but look for situations where you can get away with it.

As I mentioned, I'm going to try out bringing in the Canonists vs Miracles and try to figure out if they have enough impact vs Snapcaster.

I'll stream a league run tonight at 7pm EDT if you anyone wants to come point out my misplays!

[Rationalist]

Okay, I've been doing a lot of itterration with the sideboard since the banning and I'm finally hitting something that's feeling really good again.


4x Monastery Mentor
4x Auriok Salvager
4x Dark Confidant
2x Imperial Recruiter
2x Trinket Mage
1x Walking Ballista

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Mox Opal
4x Lotus Petal
4x Urza's Bauble
3x Mishra's Bauble
1x Lodestone Bauble

4x Unclaimed Territory
4x Cavern of Souls
4x Ancient Tomb
3x City of Traitors
2x Remote Farm
1x Spire of Industry
1x Inventors' Fair

SB:


3x Quicksmith Rebel
2x Sanctum Prelate
2x Manic Vandal
2x Warping Wail
1x Venser, Shaper Savant
1x Containment Priest
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Sorcerous Spyglass
1x Surge Node
1x Karn, Scion of Urza


2x Warping Wail

Warping Wail has seemed fantastic. It kills Thalia and Revoker. It counters Show and Tell and exiles Arcane Artisan. It answers Terminus and Infernal Tutor. It's good against Reanimator, Infect, the list goes on. It's incredibly easy to cast and it gives us access to a whole category of effect that the opponent previously did not have to respect. It can even deny a Ponder or a Preordain when that's the best line. It hits the match-ups we want to hit, gains extra points in many other popular match-ups entirely outside of what it's included for, and even has an additional mode I've yet to even use if we want to get creative with our lines or pump some monks and make a body.

Card is great.

1x Venser, Shaper Savant

Venser is actually an old inclusion from an earlier version of the list. His primary motivation for inclusion is that he's an easily tutorable answer that is amazingly flexible in the Reanimator / Show and tell matchups, but he's all around a great card. He let's us (regularly uncounterably) interact with whatever we want on a critical turn. He adds resilience to almost every deck-drawing combo turn, not only be holding him on hand on the opponent's last remaining turn, but if necessary we can even put our 48 upkeep draw triggers on the stack, sack the LED we combo'd with for blue mana, draw into him, cast him off the floating mana + 1 (or a 2nd LED) and bounce a permanent while also clogging up the board. Hypothetically you could even bounce a Tutor, hold priority, sack LED, play the tutor exactly off the LED mana and use him to transform an LED into the other card of your choice, but I've never actually done that one.

The reason it's taken me so long to include him again is that reasonably speaking he's taking the place of War Priest of Thune in this sideboard plan. The problem with War Priest of Thune has been that it's usually coming in against decks that might not land the relevant enchantment you're afraid of, or are playing with the types of enchantments that War Priest just isn't going to be doing enough against. (RIP/Helm decks with Back to Basics, etc).

Adding the increased presence of Sneak/Show and how powerful Venser is in that matchup, War Priest is out and Venser is in.

Still suspicious of Surge Node and there's a small chance that Karn should be a 3rd Sanctum Prelate, but as it stands I'm really liking the current 15.

[f7eleven]

I tried out Warping Wail in my sideboard last weekend. I've always liked the card, but it's power level was a bit underwhelming for me, despite its versatility. Also had some issues with colorless mana sources (monoW only plays 11-12). I'm actually cutting the 4th City and 4th Cavern for two more white sources.

[cosmiccoil]

No one here is calling him a "bad card" (again, except for maybe cosmiccoil a few pages back, but even that doesn't strike me as fair representation)

Although I never thought Karn was a poor decision, I think its stock has improved greatly with the uptick in DnT. My primary problem with it is that it helps us play a "fair" game, which I didn't think was that big of a problem in the former, Grixis-delver dominated meta. Now that DnT is around to disrupt not only our combo, but also our fair game with cards like Jitte (which is pretty effective at killing Mentor), I find it to be much more important to have another must-answer threat that can clog up the ground. I am currently running two and going up to three. I think a counterable four-drop that isn't fantastic in multiples diminishes the incentive to run a playset.

[Rationalist]

@cosmiccoil

I've always seen Karn as a viable option in some amount, but I'm also with you on being more open to 2 - 3 Karn than 4 on those types of lists - although I'm open to being wrong. As far as D&T goes, that was the incentive I took in going up to 3 Quicksmith Rebels, as they can also machine-gun down every single creature in that deck Mom or no and are harder than most to pin down under a Revoker (admittedly not the Batterskull token, but I'm categorizing that as a job for Artifact removal rather than Creature). It's really just game 1 that I feel noticeably unfavored against. I'm not running any main-board Vandals, Chalice becomes an enormous liability in the face of Flickerwisp, and comboing under a Thalia that has not been killed is mana-neutral meaning that Monks are the only spout that remain infinite. Overall I'm feeling (Weak)(Strong)(Strong) against the deck, which feels good enough to me and has usually fell in my favor, but I have certainly lost the match at least once to some unmeasured ratio of better-player/variance before so I could easily see people moving more towards lists like Kaono's as a rational choice if they're in the market for optimizing their pre-board matchup against D&T.

[Manroe]

Just gauging opinions here, post banning I feel very strongly that our best matchup is essentially gone and also that our worst matchups are beginning to resurface more. More fast combo, more show and tell and more graveyard strategies and hate have been giving me a really hard time as of late. What do you all think?

[Rationalist]

Just gauging opinions here, post banning I feel very strongly that our best matchup is essentially gone and also that our worst matchups are beginning to resurface more. More fast combo, more show and tell and more graveyard strategies and hate have been giving me a really hard time as of late. What do you all think?

I don't generally consider combo to be bad matchups on my current build (list above -Karn +Prelate); I'm usually happy to see them. I played against a lot of Storm yesterday, and playing "11-Chalice" (3 Prelate, 4 Chalice, 2 Recruiter, 2 Trinket) plus 2x Warping Wail was fine. Not particularly worried about S&S either, especially with Venser. Reanimator is a little harder, but Containment Priest + Prelate / Chalice on 2 tends to get there. You're also a fast combo deck yourself, unless you're focusing more on the fair plan than the combo plan. Belcher would be bad in theory, but honestly I'm never really running into that.

Is it possible you're just on a build where you're cutting consistency and card velocity for fair powerhouses like Karn, and having trouble getting the sideboard to function well in this context?

[cosmiccoil]

@cosmiccoil

I've always seen Karn as a viable option in some amount, but I'm also with you on being more open to 2 - 3 Karn than 4 on those types of lists - although I'm open to being wrong. As far as D&T goes, that was the incentive I took in going up to 3 Quicksmith Rebels, as they can also machine-gun down every single creature in that deck Mom or no and are harder than most to pin down under a Revoker (admittedly not the Batterskull token, but I'm categorizing that as a job for Artifact removal rather than Creature). It's really just game 1 that I feel noticeably unfavored against. I'm not running any main-board Vandals, Chalice becomes an enormous liability in the face of Flickerwisp, and comboing under a Thalia that has not been killed is mana-neutral meaning that Monks are the only spout that remain infinite. Overall I'm feeling (Weak)(Strong)(Strong) against the deck, which feels good enough to me and has usually fell in my favor, but I have certainly lost the match at least once to some unmeasured ratio of better-player/variance before so I could easily see people moving more towards lists like Kaono's as a rational choice if they're in the market for optimizing their pre-board matchup against D&T.

I am certainly not advocating turning bomberman into "Karn Stompy." Its another threat, of which there can be many other different threats.

I don't feel like DnT is especially unfavored, but its certainly not a great matchup, which concerns me given its likely prevalence in paper events going forward. I plan to play U/W at GPRichmond and expect to play DnT at least three times on the first day because of a variety of factors (it's tier-1, price, porting from modern, et cetera). I am sure with a bunch more interaction like Quicksmith Rebels the matchup turns considerably, but it's not an option in my current color choices.

[cosmiccoil]

Just gauging opinions here, post banning I feel very strongly that our best matchup is essentially gone and also that our worst matchups are beginning to resurface more. More fast combo, more show and tell and more graveyard strategies and hate have been giving me a really hard time as of late. What do you all think?

I agree on the first count (that we lost one of our best matchups) but not on the second (weakness to combo). There is always a trade-off between being "fair" and being a combo deck ourselves. Karn makes us fairer, while a bunch of tutors help against combo. You just need to choose what you want to lose to.

Because we are already a fairly good "fair" deck with Salvagers, I think it is worth allocating almost everything in your board to fighting combo.

[Rationalist]

I am certainly not advocating turning bomberman into "Karn Stompy." Its another threat, of which there can be many other different threats.

I don't feel like DnT is especially unfavored, but its certainly not a great matchup, which concerns me given its likely prevalence in paper events going forward. I plan to play U/W at GPRichmond and expect to play DnT at least three times on the first day because of a variety of factors (it's tier-1, price, porting from modern, et cetera). I am sure with a bunch more interaction like Quicksmith Rebels the matchup turns considerably, but it's not an option in my current color choices.

How has the Sai been working out for you in UW, or are you not running him?

[cosmiccoil]

How has the Sai been working out for you in UW, or are you not running him?

Wonderfully--as a two-of. Flying blockers buy a bunch of time to combo off. It's also a good reminder of how good flying is in general in the format. The fact that it triggers off of casting any artifact is awesome, because it means that even putting ballista into play helps. Plus the colorless-nature of the thopters helps a bunch against DnT. Sai + Karnstructs makes for some very hefty tokens. It also means Marit Lage decks are way easier to handle. So, yeah, he's been great.

[Rationalist]

The 8th Bauble is beginning to feel like too much air. Experimenting with replacing it with a 3rd Recruiter.

[Manroe]

The 8th Bauble is beginning to feel like too much air. Experimenting with replacing it with a 3rd Recruiter.What about a MB Engineered Explosives?

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk

[Rationalist]

What about a MB Engineered Explosives?

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk

It's generally been awkward as a reactive card in a combo deck with a very finite supply of natural colored mana, and plenty of 0-Cost artifacts and tokens of its own, but testing never hurts.

[Rationalist]

Tamura Hajime came in 10th at Eternal Weekend Japan with the following list:

-------------------------------------------------


3《オーリオックの廃品回収者/Auriok Salvagers》
2《練達飛行機械職人、サイ/Sai, Master Thopterist》
4《歩行バリスタ/Walking Ballista》

4《オパールのモックス/Mox Opal》
4《ライオンの瞳のダイアモンド/Lion's Eye Diamond》
4《虚空の杯/Chalice of the Void》
4《ディミーアの印鑑/Dimir Signet》
4《アンティキティー戦争/The Antiquities War》
4《直観/Intuition》
1《アズカンタの探索/Search for Azcanta》
3《ウルザの後継、カーン/Karn, Scion of Urza》
1《掘葬の儀式/Unburial Rites》
1《木端+微塵/Cut+Ribbons》
1《Lodestone Bauble》

4《古えの居住地/Ancient Den》
4《教議会の座席/Seat of the Synod》
4《古えの墳墓/Ancient Tomb》
4《空僻地/Glimmervoid》
3《裏切り者の都/City of Traitors》
1《産業の塔/Spire of Industry》

サイドボード
1《孤独の都/City of Solitude》
4《虚空の力線/Leyline of the Void》
2《Helm of Obedience》
2《仕組まれた爆薬/Engineered Explosives》
1《古えの遺恨/Ancient Grudge》
1《仕組まれた疫病/Engineered Plague》
1《天啓の光/Ray of Revelation》
1《罠の橋/Ensnaring Bridge》
1《窒息/Choke》
1《魔術遠眼鏡/Sorcerous Spyglass》

-------------------------------------------------

This list is pretty interesting. Reminds me a little of the historic lists some pages back, as well as Bahra's Artifact Control brews (https://i.redd.it/q1ndwxc1hwh11.jpg). Without Monastery Mentor increasing the value of Salvagers, the fact that it still includes Sai is a particularly bold choice.

Glimmervoid to help support Choke, Ancient Grudge ... City of Solitude? Only 1 Bauble - Intuition - Unburial Rites? - Very spicy all the way around.

[Kaono]

No one man should have so much spice. My lord. I don't even know how they do it. It's like a top-down vs bottom-up deckbuilding philosophical paradigm shift that's instilled at birth.

[Rationalist]

So only been testing it for two weeks, but -1 Bauble +1 Recruiter to up the creature count to 18 seems to be a positive change in the Humans list, bringing me to


4x Monastery Mentor
4x Auriok Salvager
4x Dark Confidant
3x Imperial Recruiter
2x Trinket Mage
1x Walking Ballista

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Mox Opal
4x Lotus Petal
4x Urza's Bauble
2x Mishra's Bauble
1x Lodestone Bauble

4x Unclaimed Territory
4x Cavern of Souls
4x Ancient Tomb
3x City of Traitors
2x Remote Farm
1x Spire of Industry
1x Inventors' Fair

SB:

3x Quicksmith Rebel
3x Sanctum Prelate
2x Manic Vandal
2x Warping Wail
1x Venser, Shaper Savant
1x Containment Priest
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Sorcerous Spyglass
1x Surge Node


Current most suspect card is the 2nd Warping Wail, so I may experiment with some other cards in that slot.

Wish I could squeeze a decent recurring looting effect in the maindeck even as just a 5th Confidant, but I've goldfished some experiments along those lines in a draw simulator and it's always been awkward.

I also may want to test - 1 Mishra's B. +1 Lodestone B. The initial Lodestone Bauble was a concession to the need for Trinket Mage to fetch a mana spout that won instantly while also turning on an Opal, with the ability to bypass Glacial Chasm / Leyline of Sanctity purely as a bonus. That need is met by only the first inclusion, but with respect to balancing the 1 mana with the extra turn of clock I don't have the experience to be confident that only 1 copy is correct. I suspect it is, but I haven't actually experimented with a 2nd.

Nothing anywhere near as spicy as the Japanese list, but if anyone wants to try the Japanese list, I'd be curious to hear if the Unburial Rites is anything more than cute.

[cosmiccoil]

It's generally been awkward as a reactive card in a combo deck with a very finite supply of natural colored mana, and plenty of 0-Cost artifacts and tokens of its own, but testing never hurts.

I run two main. I previously only ran one, but I find it to be highly effective at removing hate that might impede us, such as main deck pithing needle or a revoker. It is also a "free" prowess trigger in a pinch and provides a way to wipe the board (removing all permanents on 1, 2, 3 and 5) if it is not possible to win immediately. EE is one of the only ways to catch back up if we are behind in certain matchups. Running at least one is a great idea for two-color, non-human builds because there is more reliable colored mana available.

[f7eleven]

GP Richmond report:

4 Ancient Den
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
2 Karakas
1 Plains
4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Karn, Scion of Urza
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lodestone Bauble
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Mox Opal
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Walking Ballista

Sideboard:
3 Aura of Silence
3 Containment Priest
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Tormod's Crypt

The list hasn't changed much recently (the maindeck not at all) although I've spent the last couple months trying lots of things leading up to the GP. The latest change was swapping 2 Seal of Cleansing and the Disenchant/Cast Out slot for 3 Aura of Silence. I'm even worse against opposing Chalice decks with this change (costing 1 more AND needing double white) but these matchups were so bad that I'm fine planning to dodge chalices and increasing my power level vs the remaining field.
Aura fills the same role as Seal - handling Needle effects, equipment, Eidolons, and RiP/Leyline, and also comes in vs Chalice despite the note above. It also makes all of those things cost more to play while taxing lots of random other things too... 4-mana Baleful Strixes aren't nearly as good. My favorite interaction has been making Engineered Explosives on 0 next to impossible to play - a card that was previously a huge blowout in their favor. The 3cmc makes Aura more likely than a Seal to resolve through a Counterbalance.

So yeah, trading points vs MonoR Stompy, Steel Stompy, and Aggro Loam for points vs Grixis Control and Miracles. I think Eldrazi stays pretty much unchanged since they're still very dead to Ensnaring Bridge. Looking back at what I played, what my friends played, and the published lists, this was definitely the right call. (I didn't see a single MonoR, Steel Stompy, or Aggro Loam anywhere near me).


R1 Burn
Game 1 I get Chalice on 1 then Chalice on 2. Karnstructs then wall his creatures until I have enough to start attacking with them. On the last two turns I decide to do nothing with Karn, rather than +1 and reveal more cards to my opponent.
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+3 Aura of Silence (Answers to Eidolon and boarded-in Pyrostatic Pillars)
-1 Ancient Tomb (I shave an Ancient Tomb in this matchup because you can't win if you draw and have to use 2 of them)
-2 Urza's Bauble
-1 Lodestone Bauble (I don't like this as a win-con since they can draw their deck and fire off their Lightning Bolts, PoP's, and Fireblasts with lethal bauble triggers on the stack)
-1 Monastery Mentor
Game 2 he curves out while I have a Swords to Plowshares that can't kill an Eidolon while I have Chalice on 1 in play
Game 3 he has an Eidolon and a Goblin Guide in play, and is tapped out (2 mountains) and missed his 3rd land drop. I have Ballista with 1 counter, 2 LED's, and a Petal in play while I'm at 16.
I tapout my lands to play Salvagers with his most likely interaction being Fireblast. I figure, if I go for it and Salvagers get killed in response to targeting an LED, I'll crack the other LED, target it, have 2 floating, Salvagers dies, replay both LED's (go to 12 on Eidolon triggers), crack both (8 floating) to pump Ballista to 3/3. That gives me a creature that safely blocks or can remove Eidolon on demand, while he has no lands.
My opponent tanks and then ultimately Fireblasts the Ballista. Ballista grows, kills Eidolon on his way out, and then we combo.
(1-0)

R2 Burn
Game 1 goes the same as Game 1 above, 2 Chalices and beatdown.
same SB plan as above
Game 2 an Aura of Silence makes him pay 4 for an Eidolon before killing said Eidolon so that I can keep digging with baubles, but can't stablize or find the combo before getting burned out.
Game 3 an Aura of Silence picks off a Pyrostatic Pillar so I can combo off.
(2-0)

I'm hopeful I've played my way out of the burn bracket since it's not a matchup I like even though I'm not sure who is favored, if anyone even is favored.

R3 Sneak and Show
Game 1 I combo with Lodestone Bauble and loop 100 times. This ended up being a mistake in that my opponent then spent ten minutes trying not to die to the triggers in his upkeep by drawing down to 3 cards, Brainstorming Emrakuls to his library, having his own counter war then Intuitioning to get the reshuffle. He was ultimately no where close to being able to survive 100 bauble triggers, but it was close enough for him to waste both our time... I'll be naming a million in the future.
+3 Containment Priest
+2 Ensnaring Bridge
+3 Aura of Silence
-4 Monastery Mentor
-4 Karn, Scion of Urza
Game 2 I forget to attack once with my Containment Priest (the first turn it could've attacked) and I eventually lose to Arcane Aritsan when they're at 2. It could've mattered, but the opponent isn't going from 2 to 0 with his Ancient Tomb (he went from 4 to 2 this game from his Ancient Tomb) so I'm unsure if I cost myself the game. Definitely a mistake though.
Game 3 we're both playing rushed because of the huge time-waste from game 1. I remember wanting to bring Mentors back in for game 3 on the play but instead didn't reSB. I got turn-1'd, Show into Omniscience into Griselbrand into draw 7 into Emrakul.
(2-1)

R4 Grixis Delver
Game 1 I lose a grindy game in which he had the necesary answers while a turn-1 delver beats down each turn.
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Ensnaring Bridge
-1 Monastery Mentor
-1 Karn, Scion of Urza
-1 Lion's Eye Diamond
-1 Auriok Salvagers
It's pretty obvious I don't know the best way to board here. Shaving 4 drops vs Wastelands makes sense, and then also hedging vs Dread of Night by shaving a Mentor, and hedging vs discard+Surgical by shaving an LED. Yeah, I'm still not sure how to board this matchup, but this is what I did.
Game 2 I quickly start to feel demoralized as he has another perfect start and I'm resigned to going to 2-2 in the tournament, but am able to draw lands to rebound from the multiple Wastelands, and after a couple resolved Karns later, I've managed to even the match.
Game 3 is when he finally has a mediocre draw and spends his turns cantripping into lands and cantrips. I end up swarming with monks for the match.
(3-1)

R5 Sneak and Show
Game 1 I manage to steal after they Show in an Omniscience, draw down to 6 life but can't find an Emrakul. My Chalice on 1 stops him from cantripping and Karakas stops Griselbrand from dealing damage and letting him draw 7 again. I get 2 Karnstructs to 6 power and can then use the Karakas on my turn after blocks to stop the lifegain from blocking 1 and the other squeaking through for lethal.
Same +/- as R3
Game 2 I mulligan to a 5 with Bridge and combo pieces but only 1 land. I play out 2 LEDs (I don't have Mentors in the deck). He casts Sneak Attack with a Lotus Petal but doesn't have any more red. I pass and he follows up with a Show and Tell. I think for a minute and decide to put in Salvagers. He puts in Griselbrand and draws 7 once (he had used Tomb a couple times and didn't want to go to 2 I guess). He didn't find Petal AND Emrakul because he passes. I draw a City of Traitors, play it and lead on Bridge to bait a counterspell, a FoW putting him at 8. Then I crack an LED, target it with with Salvagers and he draws another 7 (down to 1 life). He Echoing Truths my Salvagers, and I crack the other LED (now 4 floating). Echo resovles, LED comes to hand, play it and Salvagers and combo him -- he had the second FoW, but couldn't cast it at 1 life.
(4-1)

R6 Death and Taxes
Game 1 I have one of those draws that mimics Eldrazi and he plays a Prelate choosing 2 (whew! Crisis averted!). The game takes 30 mintues as he's activating 3 Ports on my upkeep and later has 3 Revokers in play naming LED, Walking Ballista, and Karn. He also has the StP for a Mentor every time I find and play one, but the monks and worthless Ballistas let me chump his Mirran Crusader equipped with SoFaI. Eventually he finds a flier and the game ends immediately.
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+3 Aura of Silence
+3 Containment Priest (this seems mediocre, but shutting off their instant speed interaction means StP is the only not-in-play way to answer the combo. It also shuts off Recruiter/Flickerwisp loops)
-4 Chalice of the Void
-2 Auriok Salvagers
-2 Lion's Eye Diamond (Karns and Mentors and Ballistas are so good in the matchup, while comboing is difficult enough that I think shaving combo is correct. I wouldn't fault you if you wanted to cut all the LEDs and keep Salvagers, or 3/1 split, but I like still having the possibility of comboing in SB games)
Game 2 I mulligan to oblivion. :(
(4-2)

R7 Turbo Depths
Game 1 He shreds my hand and I die to a 20/20 in short order.
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Ensnaring Bridge
+3 Aura of Silence
+2 Tormod's Crypt (I don't know his deck well, but brought these in to protect myself from Surgical Extractions I figured he would have as they would be very good against me with all the discard)
-4 Monastery Mentor
-4 Karn, Scion of Urza
-1 Cavern of Souls
Game 2 I'm able to buy a turn by killing a Vampire Hexmage with a Ballista and then I slow combo, drawing down to 4 cards left in my library. Down to 3 after my draw for turn, and then I'm in this recurring awkard position of having to slow-roll my opponent while I try to play around anything ticky... it usually goes: play your Petals, play Opals one at a time, putting Chalices into play on the numbers that might matter, and also getting a small Walking Ballista into play (you can also play another Salvagers here if you need to after a slow combo turn, and you can replay it with Cavern too if that matters). But he doesn't have anything and just wanted to the information.
Game 3 I mulligan into a great hand that's just a little light on mana. I have an Aura of Silence but after he gets a Needle in play naming Salvagers (he recognized earlier that Lodestone Bauble is also a win-con on combo tunrs). I don't know if the Aura of Silence prevented any more needle effects, or if he didn't have any, but I draw the missing lands and then topdeck a Salvagers for the win.
(5-2)

R8 Sneak and Show
Game 1 I steal another pre-board game vs Sneak and Show with a Karakas and Karnstructs.
Game 2 a quick loss to Sneak Attack after having a Bridge countered. I also saw a Wipe Away off a bauble, so he's not dead to a Bridge + Chalice on 2 like most Sneak and Show players are.
Game 3 my early Containment Priest is answered by an Abrade, but otherwise he's just cantripping while I'm slowtripping. I have about 7 draws over 3 turns that just need to find a Salvagers (I have the Cavern on Human already) but cannot before he finds the extra red mana (or Bloodmoon would've done it) to double activate Sneak to get his Emrakul through my Karakas. Dead. Top card is Salvages. I am sad.
(5-3)

[Rationalist]

Game 1 I combo with Lodestone Bauble and loop 100 times. This ended up being a mistake in that my opponent then spent ten minutes trying not to die to the triggers in his upkeep by drawing down to 3 cards, Brainstorming Emrakuls to his library, having his own counter war then Intuitioning to get the reshuffle. He was ultimately no where close to being able to survive 100 bauble triggers, but it was close enough for him to waste both our time... I'll be naming a million in the future.

I had never actually seen nor thought of this particular interaction being attempted. Thank you for the lesson.

[Rationalist]

https://227rsi2stdr53e3wto2skssd7xe-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Assassins_Trophy_EN.png

So I feel like further brewing here might be a little hasty until we see exactly what this card does to the format.

[Kaono]

So I feel like further brewing here might be a little hasty until we see exactly what this card does to the format.

Probably bad for us? Seems like turbo-xerox will come back since 3+ cmc permanents are bad again. Except we can't capitalize on that with our Chalices since there'll be more BUG decks with Trophy/Decay main.

Finally got around to testing Magus of the Balance last night, but bad luck (and 1 misplay) put me at 2-2 for the night.

List:

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Opal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Lodestone Bauble
4 Walking Ballista
4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Monastery Mentor
1 Magus of the Balance
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Plains
2 Karakas
2 Inventors' Fair
2 Karn, Scion of Urza

Sideboard:
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Containment Priest
2 Sanctum Prelate
1 Magus of the Balance
1 Cast Out
2 Seal of Cleansing
3 Swords to Plowshares

R1: BANT TNN/KoTR 1-0

pretty easy 2 games, I t1 ballista a bop, and then race a tnn with mentor & friends, in the other game I comboed off unopposed

R2: "Earth Miracles" aka astral slide 2-0

astral slide + sundial of the infinite is a sweet combo -- he also had lightning rift. g1 he slide + sundial exiled my salvagers, but that tapped him out and i topdecked an LED to go along with a 2nd salvagers under Karn to win. Which is lucky since I don't think the deck can realistically win vs slide + sundial preboard. g2 i cast t2 karn and started downticking but he pressured me with a flickerwisp putting me to 5 before he had to start chumping my karnstructs + mentor beats -- he was digging for terminus but didnt find it

R3: RUG Delver 2-1

When the deck stumbles, RUG delver can capitalize hard. Mulliganed all 3 games, and just kept bricking at all the wrong times. Drew a bunch of lands, never really saw any threats, and baubles all drew into nothing. Sad times.

R4: Storm 2-2

Mulliganed all 3 games again, and sadly punted g1. Got a t2 chalice on 1, but was trying to find a threat to close out the game and baubled him when my board was opal/tomb/fair/plains/bauble/chalice. The bauble and next 2 drawsteps whiffed on artifacts so I couldn't activate my fair to go get/cast a chalice on 2 and really seal up the game. This let him go cabal rit -> ad naus and he was able to find a bunch of LEDs/Infernal Tutors to win.

G2 was easy with chalice on 1 into t2 mentor & friends. hard to lose that

g3 again had chalice on t1 mentor on t2 but eot hurkyls into a ad naus ended my night

---

I only cast Magus of the Balance once and that was g1 vs Storm. Had I untapped with it it would've been pretty decent to mind twist him, but that would've also wiped out my clock. I would've liked to have tested it more, but like AR said, the meta is about to shift so it's probably time to put this deck down again for a bit. Cheers!

[Rationalist]

Probably bad for us?

Quite bad. It's instant speed removal for Salvagers (presumably placed on the stack after we discard our hand) that gets around Chalice on 1 and also can Ghost Quarter us. If the card becomes prevalent, there's no way I see it not affecting any optimized build in this archetype. The silver lining is that if it becomes a common staple, it likely shifts the format in a direction that's good for us with respect to other decks, but even that doesn't really make up for how strongly it shifts the BUG matchups towards the opponent.

What role at what prominence the card ends up having in the format I certainly can't say, but I'm already stockpiling a list of everything I can think of that answers it with any efficiency empty-handed, and identifying which slots main and side are the most expendable to concessions to this card. I feel like it's just wait-and-see at this point, and then figuring out the best way to adapt.

It is undoubtedly net bad-news, however.

[cosmiccoil]

It is undoubtedly net bad-news, however.

Definitely, but post-board it makes Prelate better. I currently run two and I might go up to three. The decks that will run AT are likely to be Aggro Loam, Maverick, and possibly some type of BUG control. Those are decks that were already running Abrupt Decay and/or Punishing Fire, which already incentivized bringing in Prelate and putting it on two. Yes, killing Auriok sucks, but I feel like we are already living in that world with Snuff Out and Dismember being more prevalent. I think builds that are less trying to just jam the combo and play a bit more fair are good options. I still think W/B is the best build because Bob is just a card advantage machine in the deck that can fuel mentor and lead to situations in which an opponent cannot hope to win by just preventing the combo. I think the red recruiter builds will be worse for that reason because finding and jamming Auriok with a Chalice on 1 is not the auto-win it has been in the past. I think AT also makes Karn slightly worse given that it can be ATed, which is a poor exchange for us. Anyways, those are my initial thoughts. I am curious to see if any BUG archetypes makes a resurgence. We shall see.

[f7eleven]

I haven't played any legacy since GP Richmond, but went to MTGFirst's Quest for Power this weekend. We had 50-something players, 6 rounds of swiss before cut, with a Time Walk to 1st and the rest of top 8 getting various duals.

I played the same main deck I've been on for months now; mono white all 4-of's except the 1x Lodestone Bauble. Ethersworn Canonist was the only card I never brought in at the GP, and storm seems dead at the moment, so I knew I wanted to change those 3 slots. I went with a 4th Containment Priest (I was 1-2 vs Show and Tell at the GP), and 2x Sanctum Prelate.

4 Ancient Den
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
2 Karakas
1 Plains
4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Karn, Scion of Urza
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lodestone Bauble
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Mox Opal
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Walking Ballista

3 Aura of Silence
4 Containment Priest
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Tormod's Crypt

Round 1 vs Dredge.
Game 1 I explode with a Mentor and Monks that are quickly walled by a bunch of zombie tokens. He only has 1x Bridge in the yard after flipping most of his deck, which I nuke with a Ballista to his face. It turns out that the last 3 cards in his deck are Bridges, so he has to draw them and Therapy himself to bin
them. A timely Chalice shuts off that line and I plan to deck him via blocking his Ichorids, zombies, and returned Grave Troll. He swings for non-lethal and dies on the crack-back though.

+2 Tormod's Crypt
+4 Containment Priest
-4 Karn, Scion of Urza
-1 Cavern of Souls
-1 Urza's Bauble

Game 2 I keep a seven of Mentor, Balista, Urza's Baulbe, Mishra's Bauble, Tormod's Crypt, and 2x LED. I figure Crypt can buy a turn or two, Ballista can be played for 0 to nuke any Bridges, and if I get to cast the Mentor I'll be able to make a decent number of Monks. I draw an Ancient Den for the turn and play Crypt and Mishra's Bauble. I check the top card of my deck and see City of Traitors, so I don't play the other 0's.

(side note: every once in a while I'll check my next draw with Mishra's Bauble since the information will sometimes change the line you take -- usually when deciding whether to dump multiple baubles and/or whether you want to hold things for Mentor triggers).

He leads with a fair Faithless Looting, putting some dredgers into the yard. The Mentor makes friends while he slow dredges, hitting some Narcomoebas but nothing scary. Monks close the game pretty quickly.
(another side note: Crypt is really at its best vs Dredge when you never have to use it - just threaten it. I also think this is a pretty good matchup for us, being able to match, or at least stave off, their token army with our own, backed by a combo kill. ...and Ballista's to exile Bridges)
1-0

Round 2 vs D&T
Triple Wasteland and a naturally drawn Prelate on 0 gives him game 1.
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+4 Containment Priest
+3 Aura of Silence
-4 Chalice of the Void
-2 Auriok Salvagers
-3 Lion's Eye Diamond

Again - Priest shuts off their vials (obv), but also shuts off their Recruiter/Flickerwisp chains. It's also an unexpected blocker for their Revoker to unlock your Ballista. And vs D&T in general, make sure you plus your Karn to 6 vs a vial on 3 since an instant Wisp to exile the token and then kill Karn is a blowout.

Game 2 he has a Prelate on 0 again along with a Revoker on Ballista. At one point one of us offers a trade of my Priest for his Revoker, and I either jump at the opportunity, or he mistakenly accepts. This lets me follow up with a Ballista to kill the Prelate and my hand is unlocked for a fair kill.

Game 3 he has Rest in Peace but not much else. Another fair kill with Mentor and Karn.
2-0

Round 3 vs D&T again
On the play game 1 I keep a hand of mana and 4 baubles (one of which is Lodestone). He leads on Vial and I crack all 4 baubles and find a Salvers for the sneaky (ie., Lodestone) turn-2 kill.

same SB as last round

Game 2 I swords a Stoneforge Mystic and an Aura of Silence makes him pay 4 for his Jitte which gets blown up with Aura when he equips next turn. 2x Karn's pump out 7/7's for a win.
3-0

Round 4 vs Lands
Game 1 he has turn-1 2x Mox, 2x Exploration, Waste & Loam. Oof. I'm still live to find running Lotus Petals though since I have all the combo pieces and a sol land in hand. I play out my non-sol lands to be wasted, but I also name Eldrazi on my Cavern, and when I discard to hand size, Chalice is what discard. This goes on for several turns until he finds his combo lands before I find petals.

+2 Ensnaring Bridge
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Sanctum Prelate
+2 Tormod's Crypt
-4 Monastery Mentor
-4 Karn, Scion o Urza
(we're all-in on combo and everything that comes in is to buy us time. I don't bring in Aura of Silence since I'm almost certain he thinks I'm on Eldrazi and won't be bringing in Spheres)

Game 2 I combo on turn 4
+3 Aura of Slince (ok, NOW they come in)
-1 Mox Opal
-1 Walking Ballista
-1 Urza's Bauble

Game 3 he Gambles for a Sphere of Resistance and plays it. I get out 2 Bridges that hold off his Depths and I play Prelates and Ballistas into Molten Vortex hoping to run him out of lands while a Chalice on 2 has Loam covered. He copies Ports and taps my white every turn. Many turns of paying 1 for Baubles and Petals while trying to find Aura before he finds 2x KGrip or second Sphere.
When I find an Aura of Silence I know 4 of the 6 cards in his hand from a combination of Loam and Baubles and go for it (as time is called). I blow up Sphere and play 3 Opals as Petals, play Salvagers and he Crop Rotations for Glacial Chasm. Only one unknown in hand now! So I discard my hand of other Salvagers and StP's to make infinite mana and sneaky kill him with Lodestone :)
4-0

Double draw into top 8 as the 5th seed.

Quarter Finals vs UW Delver
Game 1 he has answers for everything the first few turns and I only have a mid-game Chalice on 1 in play. He Brainstorms with Jace, the Mind Sculptor for a few turns before I finally find a Salvagers right when I have to go for it (dead on board otherwise). The Salvagers is uncounterable from Cavern but I don't have the extra mana to double activate and am resigned to losing to FoW or double Daze on LED. I whiff on my Chalice trigger when he only has Spell Pierce for the LED. Oof. Thinking I was dead to countermagic was absolutely the wrong mindset, and I definitely fucked myself with that thought stuck in my head. What a time to miss my only tigger on the day (0 missed Chalice, Bauble, or Mentor triggers otherwise). Luckily I'm able to reassure myself that I'm still in it and am quickly out of the 30-second tilt as I go to sideboard.
+2 Sanctum Prelate
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+3 Aura of Silence

Game 2 I'm ahead on board form a Karn that stuck for a few turns. There is a turn where I draw my second white source and decide to play Sanctum Prelate instead of the Aura of Silence in my hand. Was thinking, if the Prelate sticks, it'll shut off a potential Spell Pierce on the enchantment. An Engineered Explosives for 0 instantly makes me regret that decision. I lose practically everything; Contsrtucts, a Ballista, an Opal, an LED, a left over Monk token... everything but the Prelate.

Womp Womp.. oh well. better to go out making mistakes I will hopefully learn from, rather than shit luck or mulliganing to oblivion. I take store credit over the dual and pick up playsets of Grindstone, Painter's Servant, and Imperial Recruiter - so maybe you'll see me over in the Shortcake thread. :)

If were taking this deck into an important tournament tomorrow I wouldn't change a card, though I think the 4th Priest in the SB can be considered a flex slot. I liked the Prelates. I still love the Aura of Silences.

[cris_rj]

I haven't played any legacy since GP Richmond, but went to MTGFirst's Quest for Power this weekend. We had 50-something players, 6 rounds of swiss before cut, with a Time Walk to 1st and the rest of top 8 getting various duals.

I played the same main deck I've been on for months now; mono white all 4-of's except the 1x Lodestone Bauble. Ethersworn Canonist was the only card I never brought in at the GP, and storm seems dead at the moment, so I knew I wanted to change those 3 slots. I went with a 4th Containment Priest (I was 1-2 vs Show and Tell at the GP), and 2x Sanctum Prelate.

4 Ancient Den
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
2 Karakas
1 Plains
4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Karn, Scion of Urza
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lodestone Bauble
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Mox Opal
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Walking Ballista

3 Aura of Silence
4 Containment Priest
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Tormod's Crypt

Round 1 vs Dredge.
Game 1 I explode with a Mentor and Monks that are quickly walled by a bunch of zombie tokens. He only has 1x Bridge in the yard after flipping most of his deck, which I nuke with a Ballista to his face. It turns out that the last 3 cards in his deck are Bridges, so he has to draw them and Therapy himself to bin
them. A timely Chalice shuts off that line and I plan to deck him via blocking his Ichorids, zombies, and returned Grave Troll. He swings for non-lethal and dies on the crack-back though.

+2 Tormod's Crypt
+4 Containment Priest
-4 Karn, Scion of Urza
-1 Cavern of Souls
-1 Urza's Bauble

Game 2 I keep a seven of Mentor, Balista, Urza's Baulbe, Mishra's Bauble, Tormod's Crypt, and 2x LED. I figure Crypt can buy a turn or two, Ballista can be played for 0 to nuke any Bridges, and if I get to cast the Mentor I'll be able to make a decent number of Monks. I draw an Ancient Den for the turn and play Crypt and Mishra's Bauble. I check the top card of my deck and see City of Traitors, so I don't play the other 0's.

(side note: every once in a while I'll check my next draw with Mishra's Bauble since the information will sometimes change the line you take -- usually when deciding whether to dump multiple baubles and/or whether you want to hold things for Mentor triggers).

He leads with a fair Faithless Looting, putting some dredgers into the yard. The Mentor makes friends while he slow dredges, hitting some Narcomoebas but nothing scary. Monks close the game pretty quickly.
(another side note: Crypt is really at its best vs Dredge when you never have to use it - just threaten it. I also think this is a pretty good matchup for us, being able to match, or at least stave off, their token army with our own, backed by a combo kill. ...and Ballista's to exile Bridges)
1-0

Round 2 vs D&T
Triple Wasteland and a naturally drawn Prelate on 0 gives him game 1.
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+4 Containment Priest
+3 Aura of Silence
-4 Chalice of the Void
-2 Auriok Salvagers
-3 Lion's Eye Diamond

Again - Priest shuts off their vials (obv), but also shuts off their Recruiter/Flickerwisp chains. It's also an unexpected blocker for their Revoker to unlock your Ballista. And vs D&T in general, make sure you plus your Karn to 6 vs a vial on 3 since an instant Wisp to exile the token and then kill Karn is a blowout.

Game 2 he has a Prelate on 0 again along with a Revoker on Ballista. At one point one of us offers a trade of my Priest for his Revoker, and I either jump at the opportunity, or he mistakenly accepts. This lets me follow up with a Ballista to kill the Prelate and my hand is unlocked for a fair kill.

Game 3 he has Rest in Peace but not much else. Another fair kill with Mentor and Karn.
2-0

Round 3 vs D&T again
On the play game 1 I keep a hand of mana and 4 baubles (one of which is Lodestone). He leads on Vial and I crack all 4 baubles and find a Salvers for the sneaky (ie., Lodestone) turn-2 kill.

same SB as last round

Game 2 I swords a Stoneforge Mystic and an Aura of Silence makes him pay 4 for his Jitte which gets blown up with Aura when he equips next turn. 2x Karn's pump out 7/7's for a win.
3-0

Round 4 vs Lands
Game 1 he has turn-1 2x Mox, 2x Exploration, Waste & Loam. Oof. I'm still live to find running Lotus Petals though since I have all the combo pieces and a sol land in hand. I play out my non-sol lands to be wasted, but I also name Eldrazi on my Cavern, and when I discard to hand size, Chalice is what discard. This goes on for several turns until he finds his combo lands before I find petals.

+2 Ensnaring Bridge
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Sanctum Prelate
+2 Tormod's Crypt
-4 Monastery Mentor
-4 Karn, Scion o Urza
(we're all-in on combo and everything that comes in is to buy us time. I don't bring in Aura of Silence since I'm almost certain he thinks I'm on Eldrazi and won't be bringing in Spheres)

Game 2 I combo on turn 4
+3 Aura of Slince (ok, NOW they come in)
-1 Mox Opal
-1 Walking Ballista
-1 Urza's Bauble

Game 3 he Gambles for a Sphere of Resistance and plays it. I get out 2 Bridges that hold off his Depths and I play Prelates and Ballistas into Molten Vortex hoping to run him out of lands while a Chalice on 2 has Loam covered. He copies Ports and taps my white every turn. Many turns of paying 1 for Baubles and Petals while trying to find Aura before he finds 2x KGrip or second Sphere.
When I find an Aura of Silence I know 4 of the 6 cards in his hand from a combination of Loam and Baubles and go for it (as time is called). I blow up Sphere and play 3 Opals as Petals, play Salvagers and he Crop Rotations for Glacial Chasm. Only one unknown in hand now! So I discard my hand of other Salvagers and StP's to make infinite mana and sneaky kill him with Lodestone :)
4-0

Double draw into top 8 as the 5th seed.

Quarter Finals vs UW Delver
Game 1 he has answers for everything the first few turns and I only have a mid-game Chalice on 1 in play. He Brainstorms with Jace, the Mind Sculptor for a few turns before I finally find a Salvagers right when I have to go for it (dead on board otherwise). The Salvagers is uncounterable from Cavern but I don't have the extra mana to double activate and am resigned to losing to FoW or double Daze on LED. I whiff on my Chalice trigger when he only has Spell Pierce for the LED. Oof. Thinking I was dead to countermagic was absolutely the wrong mindset, and I definitely fucked myself with that thought stuck in my head. What a time to miss my only tigger on the day (0 missed Chalice, Bauble, or Mentor triggers otherwise). Luckily I'm able to reassure myself that I'm still in it and am quickly out of the 30-second tilt as I go to sideboard.
+2 Sanctum Prelate
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+3 Aura of Silence

Game 2 I'm ahead on board form a Karn that stuck for a few turns. There is a turn where I draw my second white source and decide to play Sanctum Prelate instead of the Aura of Silence in my hand. Was thinking, if the Prelate sticks, it'll shut off a potential Spell Pierce on the enchantment. An Engineered Explosives for 0 instantly makes me regret that decision. I lose practically everything; Contsrtucts, a Ballista, an Opal, an LED, a left over Monk token... everything but the Prelate.

Womp Womp.. oh well. better to go out making mistakes I will hopefully learn from, rather than shit luck or mulliganing to oblivion. I take store credit over the dual and pick up playsets of Grindstone, Painter's Servant, and Imperial Recruiter - so maybe you'll see me over in the Shortcake thread. :)

If were taking this deck into an important tournament tomorrow I wouldn't change a card, though I think the 4th Priest in the SB can be considered a flex slot. I liked the Prelates. I still love the Aura of Silences.



Play the same list with diferent SB. What is your side in/out plan againt: grixis control, MonoU omnitell, miracles and death shadow ?

[f7eleven]

Play the same list with diferent SB. What is your side in/out plan againt: grixis control, MonoU omnitell, miracles and death shadow ?

vs Grixis Control I like keeping in the Chalices and making them KCommand them if they want to play 1's. Aura of Silence fucks with their Strixes, but also picks off a Needle/Null Rod. I don't think they should bring in Blood Moon, but they have been in my experience, so Silence can help there too. Cavern is really important in the matchup, as is playing around Diabolic Edict. Tormod's Crypt does double duty, stopping a blowout Snapcaster, or protecting yourself from a Surgical Extraction. Also keep tabs on their graveyard count since you can pop a Crypt to delay an Angler for a few turns. Extraction is the main reason I keep in Chalice since Extraction + Discard is pretty good vs us. Generally, if I get the sense they are not familiar with our deck, and if we finish game 1 without showing any Mentors, I'll keep them in for game 2 - but if we do show Mentor (especially if it crushes them, I'll take them out for game 2 since then I expect they'll bring in some of Dread of Night/Marsh Casualties/Toxic Deluge.

in a vacuum though:
+3 Aura of Silence
+2 Tormod's Crypt
and then shave on non-Karn's
-1 Mentor
-1 Salvagers
-1 LED
-1 Urza's Bauble
-1 Mox Opal

vs monoU Omnitell they are also often cold to a Bridge + Chalice on 2, unless they have Wipe Away or Rushing River. A Chalice on 3 is also insane, shutting off Show and Tell and Cunning Wish for answers to it, so it's worth shutting off our own 3's I think. So Prelate comes in to help with that plan. Aura of Silence can be decent if their plan is Show in Omniscience and then cantrip - I think most are even cutting the Trickbind from their wish board too. Since we're not siding out all of our beaters like we do vs Sneak (omni is slower) Aura could also remove our own Bridge so we can swing for lethal. I don't think we want Priest since Emrakul is their backup plan, and we have Bridge and Karakas for that line, but I'm not sure.

+2 Prelate
+2 Bridge
+2 Aura of Silence
-3 Karn
-1 Walking Ballista (unless they're playing Strixes, and shave a Mentor instead)
-1 Urza's Bauble
-1 Plains


vs Miracles Aura of Silence is awesome to slow down and answer Counterbalance, Back to Basics, Engineered Explosives, etc. Prelate is another way to protect Salvagers on a combo turn, or prevent Terminus if you're beating down. Spamming tokens with Mentor/Karn isn't great vs their sweepers, but you need them to answer an opposing Mentor.

+2 Prelate
+3 Aura of Silence
-1 Karn
-1 Mentor
-1 LED
-1 Salvagers
-1 Walking Ballista

vs Death's Shadow Mentor is a liability as it get's answered by Dread of Night, and worse, can be Reanimated by them (the latter being VERY bad for us). Aura of Silence isn't great but they are the deck to most likely have Null Rod, and they may bring in strixes if you beat down in game 1.
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Bridge
+2 Aura of Silence (if you win game 1, you can wait until game 3 to bring these in after figuring out whether they have Null Rod or not).
-4 Mentor
-1 Urza's Bauble
-1 Mox Opal

[Manroe]

I get to work a different schedule for the next few weeks and will get to play for the first time since before trophy was printed. Is anyone still playing this and is it viable right now?

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk

[f7eleven]

I get to work a different schedule for the next few weeks and will get to play for the first time since before trophy was printed. Is anyone still playing this and is it viable right now?

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk

http://www.twitch.tv/cardtitan/v/331045367?sr=a&t=22699s

That's me!

[Kaono]

http://www.twitch.tv/cardtitan/v/331045367?sr=a&t=22699s

That's me!

Awesome, what was your final record for the day?

[f7eleven]

Awesome, what was your final record for the day?

Sadly went 5-0 into 6-3. Currently 67th, but still live for top 32.

[f7eleven]

http://www.twitch.tv/cardtitan/v/331045367?sr=a&t=22699s

That's me!

On the feature (before the full report comes later).

Game 1 I didn't put him on Show and Tell - I'd only seen Islands and cantrips. If I go for the kill and he counters the replayed LED then kills Salvagers (or worse, Terminuses Salvagers and the Mentor) I'm left with no cards in hand. Karn would stick in that worst case scenario, or could bait a counterspell now. I thought I'd have time to combo the next turn, and the chance to draw another mana source so I can beat a counter. I did make a mistake when I kept Ancient Den over Mentor after the annihilator trigger - and you can see my reaction when I realize that, but the Echoing Truth makes that moot. I made another smaller mistake when I plus'd Karn after attacks, since I could've been given a card for more prowess that turn. I had planned to -2 Karn but changed my mind after attacks.

Game 2 I thought so long about the Salvagers ftw because the two cards I was discarding to LED were Ensnaring Bridge and Cast Out, but ultimately went for it and it worked.

Game 3 I should have played my Priest turn-1 before turning off my opal - or at the very least floated a mana before seeing FoW from Mishra's Bauble. Further along in the game, I was definitely thinking about Kozilek's Return/Pyroclasm, but my hand was nothing but Priests and Ballistas and decided not to play around it in favor of clocking him. Final turn Chalice=1 was bait before the lethal Ballista.

If Hank happens to see this, I want to apologize for the post-match banter of me going over all my mistakes and how badly I played - I'm sure that wasn't pleasant to hear after being eliminated from top 8 contention. Camera jitters are real.

[f7eleven]

Eternal Weekend - Legacy Champs report

I swapped one of the Karakas for a second Plains in the Main and then changed a few cards in the sideboard for Legacy Champs:

4 Ancient Den
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
1 Karakas
2 Plains
4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Karn, Scion of Urza
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lodestone Bauble
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Mox Opal
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Walking Ballista

Sideboard:
2 Aura of Silence
1 Cast Out
3 Containment Priest
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Karakas
1 Sanctum Prelate
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Tormod's Crypt



Round 1 - UB Death's Shadow
Chalice took game 1 easily
Game 2 I could have played a turn-1 Chalice with a Petal but decided to wait a turn vs his turn-1 delver. Chalice resolves on turn2 with Daze protection from the Petal unneeded. He has a Throne of Geth as his follow up, but never uses it. I'm losing the race against his delver with a leftover Monk and finally have to try to Cast Out. It resolves, exiling the delver and my lone Monk goes the distance.
After the game he shows me the several Dazes in his hand that I had played around and caused him not to up my Chalice with Throne.

1-0


Round 2 - Grixs Control
He has a push for my Mentor game 1, but a Karn and his 7/7's are enough to win through an Angler
Game 2 I have an early Aura of Silence that strands an Engineered Explosives in his hand for nearly the entire game. There's also a turn when he fetches with 3 other untapped lands, and the fetch being the 5th card in his yard - I pop my Crypt in response to the fetch, the fetch resolves and he passes the turn. Turns out he had a Tombstalker that had to wait several more turns to come down. Eventually he plays EE w/ 3 sunburst counters to destroy my Aura of Silence, gets Tombstalker into play, and plays some Strixes that he didn't want to pay the tax for earlier. But again, Karn makes bigger creatures than his 5/5, and Ballista picks off the Strixes so they can't trade.

2-0


Round 3 - RUG Delver
Game 1 He Wastelands me three times, but I am eventually able to go off low-tide, drawing my deck and killing him the next turn.
Game 2 I have the pieces to combo, including a backup Salvagers but suspect a Dismember. I switch up my usual sequencing (usually you want LED in play before the Salvagers so the Salvagers can do some stuff on his way out in response to a kill spell) and play the Salvagers first. When I play LED next, the Salvagers is Dismembered while LED is on the stack. I play the 2nd Salvagers next turn and kill him, and I feel really smart for baiting the Dismember.

3-0


Round 4 - ANT
He leads on Thoughtseize on the play, game 1, and takes a Mentor - my only action. He's able to comfortably combo while I don't have any pressure.
Game 2 I have a Chalice and a Prelate shutting off 1's and 2's and am able to combo him after some chump-checks.
Game 3 He Thoughtseizes an Aura of Silence instead of Canonist or Chalice - which is pretty scary. I decide to lead on a Ethersworn Canonist tank while strongly considering a Chalice=0. I instead play the Chalice on 2 next turn. In response he Hurkyl's Recalls and Chalice resolves. He Ad Nauseums (0 mana floating) on his turn while Canonist is in my hand but has to pass the turn. I don't have a Cavern to re-deploy the Canonist and he's able to make 8 goblins the next turn while he's at 4. I find the Salvagers I'd been missing but have to slow combo him. I block one goblin and go to 3 with 40 something cards in hand. I start my turn with some Urza's Baulbles to try to learn the unknown card in his hand - it's a Surgical Extraction - which is trivial to play around at this point, but I do so, playing a Ballista x=2 and all my LED's before cracking any.

4-0


Round 5 - Grixis Delver
Game 1 he doesn't have a kill spell for my Mentor that makes 3 Monks on turn 1 - he gets stomped.
Game 2 He Dazes a Mentor cast off Cavern to which I immediately respond, "resolves" and Mentor goes all the way again.

5-0


Round 6 - Miracles
Game 1 takes half the round while I deploy extra Salvagers into play to get StP'd. I had 3x Salvagers in hand at one point, but I don't play the 3rd while I chain baubles trying to dig for an LED. He has Jace and Teferi going, but I don't concede since I have Chalice=1 to stop any more StP's, the Cavern, and enough mana to win through 3x counterspells if I can find the LED. But there are no LED's in the top half of my deck and I scoop to Jace:0 after he ultimates Teferi.
Game 2 we're late in the round and playing at table 1 and have a huge crowd watching us. I have a quick combo with Chalice protecting from StP and Surgical and it was this game that caught the attention of the coverage crew. :)
Game 3, though, I can't get much going and die from Clique beats.

5-1


Round 7 - Omnitell
Link to feature and my thoughts are above

6-1


Round 8 - Miracles
Games 1 & 2 are identical with turn-3 Back to Basics into turn-4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor. We need to figure out a plan for Back to Basics.

6-2


Round 9 - Eldrazi Post
No sense in figuring out a plan for opposing Chalice decks though - this deck, Aggro-Loam, Moon Stopmpy are all basically unwinnable as they have no problem answering an Ensnaring Bridge with an Ulamog trigger, Abrupt Decay, or Fiery Confluence.

Two games of helplessness vs Chalice=0 and Trinisphere.

6-3


I'm debating going home (4-hour drive) but standings show I have some of the best breakers of the 18-pointers and can cash with a 2-0 on Sunday

Sunday morning I meet another guy on the same list who is also 6-3 and we talk about how much fun the deck is, and about some of the matchups. The coverage guys also find us and I explain not going for the kill in game 1 of the feature - we also educate them that Lodestone Bauble is a win-con (the best win-con).

Round 10 - BUG Control
I play around Leovold with bauble activations on my turn, and then targeting myself with baubles once Leo is in play, but don't really get anything going. Neither game is quick, but they both play out with me just trying to stay alive and fight for an extra couple turns for the chance to try and combo. It isn't in the cards.

6-4 (drop)

[Kaono]

Thanks for the writeup -- sucks to fizzle out like that but winning a feature match is a feat in itself!

BTB/Blood Moon: This is the main situation I like more basic plains over Ancient Den

Chalice on 0: I run a single EE main to hedge that also serves as a board wipe with the combo

How were the 4 Karns/4 City of Traitors? Whenever I ran 4 I'd always end up with too many 4-drops in hand.

Ever test with Magus of the Balance? Theoretically it's strong vs Miracles/Eldrazi Post

[f7eleven]

BTB/Blood Moon: This is the main situation I like more basic plains over Ancient Den

Chalice on 0: I run a single EE main to hedge that also serves as a board wipe with the combo

How were the 4 Karns/4 City of Traitors? Whenever I ran 4 I'd always end up with too many 4-drops in hand.

Ever test with Magus of the Balance? Theoretically it's strong vs Miracles/Eldrazi Post

I had tested a RW list leading up to GP Richmond that shaved on Dens and Cities to fit in fetches and Plateaus for Abrade in place of the StP's and Disenchant effects. I missed the consistency of full play sets of the artifact land and sol land, which had me abandon the list. I'm thinking of maybe toying with it again though, with Pyroblasts for Back to Basics/Jace. When I was testing the list a few months ago I also had my own Blood Moons in the board.

I also had an EE in the deck after moving from WB with Dark Confidant to MonoW, but the loss of utility (being able to easily play it on 2 or 3 counters) made me hate it each time I drew it. It moved to the board before being dropped completely.

I haven't tested Magus of the Balance since he doesn't exist online. It's on my list of things to try, though.

[cosmiccoil]

We need to figure out a plan for Back to Basics.

I have an idea for this match-up that I plan to try at at 2-5k this weekend, which is two Grand Abolisher in the board. My thought is that I can effectively play nothing of value except for Chalice, get to six mana sources (including one cavern for the Grand Abolisher) and go off. I think the trap with Miracles is the feeling what we need to do stuff while they are doing nothing.

[SDBobPlissken]

First time poster in this thread, but have been following recently.

I took mono white bomberman to my LGS last night and went 3-1. Deck felt really sweet. I am usually on Shortcake and everyone was surprised and confused when I played against them. Here is my list which seems pretty in line with the lists floating around here.

4 cavern
4 ancient tomb
4 ancient den
3 city of traitors
2 plains
2 karakas

4 Monastery Mentor
4 Ballista
4 Salvagers

4 mishra’s bauble
4 urza’s bauble
1 lodestone bauble
4 lotus petal
4 lion’s eye diamond
4 chalice of the void
4 Mox Opal
4 Karn, Scion of Urza

Sideboard:

3 containment priest
2 canonist
2 sanctum prelate
2 sorcerous spyglass
3 aura of silence
1 cast out
2 ensnaring bridge

0-2 vs UW Stoneblade
2-0 vs MUD
2-0 vs Infect
2-0 vs UR Delver

I’m really digging the Aura of silence, kudos to F7 for reminding me that that is a card. Seems like a very versatile answer. Against Infect and UR Delver I found myself siding at least one in to play around null rod. Is this correct?

Also vs Sneak and Show it seems like we have a lot of really good answers in our board. What do you bring in without overboarding? I would bring in 3 containment priest, 2 ensnaring bridge, a cast out, and 2 spyglass. Is that too much and what would you take out? Also would you board chalices out vs D&T?

Let me know if there is anything in the main or the board that you think needs changing. Also really liking cosmic’s idea with grand abloisher. Let me know how it goes.

[f7eleven]

Welcome! I just picked up Shortcake and got the same reaction.

Yeah, Aura of Silence was a good find. It's a bit sketchy to cast sometimes off 15-16 actual white sources (and that includes Lotus Petal) but Engineered Explosives is such a beating that I continue to think it's worth it over Seal of Cleansing.

If I pick up game 1 vs UR Delver there's no way I'm bringing in Aura game 2, and I would only bring it in game 3 if I actually see a Null Rod. I think Aura can come in vs Infect regardless since it kills Inkmoth Nexuses.

I board 9-10 cards vs Sneak - and I'm not playing Sorcerous Spyglass, which is fine to bring in also. I cut the Mentors and Karns and go full combo in this matchup. Priests, Prelates, Bridges, Cast Out, Canonist if they're on Omniscience, and maybe an Aura or two. They shouldn't bring in Surgical against us, but I would still be wary of it.

I always cut all Chalices vs D&T. Our deck can't function under a Chalice=0 and I'm not going to play that against myself for them (FWisp). In this matchup I've been cutting most of the combo (leaving 1x LED, 2x Salvagers) and relying on Mentor/Ballista/Karn to get there - all of which are awesome vs them.

FYI, I tested with Spyglass a lot, I love the card, but it was ultimately too-low impact for my liking and I no longer play it. It was also often a trap that would lead to overboarding since most decks are going to have activated abilities.

Good luck with the deck - it's a blast to play!

[SDBobPlissken]

Welcome! I just picked up Shortcake and got the same reaction.

Yeah, Aura of Silence was a good find. It's a bit sketchy to cast sometimes off 15-16 actual white sources (and that includes Lotus Petal) but Engineered Explosives is such a beating that I continue to think it's worth it over Seal of Cleansing.

If I pick up game 1 vs UR Delver there's no way I'm bringing in Aura game 2, and I would only bring it in game 3 if I actually see a Null Rod. I think Aura can come in vs Infect regardless since it kills Inkmoth Nexuses.

I board 9-10 cards vs Sneak - and I'm not playing Sorcerous Spyglass, which is fine to bring in also. I cut the Mentors and Karns and go full combo in this matchup. Priests, Prelates, Bridges, Cast Out, Canonist if they're on Omniscience, and maybe an Aura or two. They shouldn't bring in Surgical against us, but I would still be wary of it.

I always cut all Chalices vs D&T. Our deck can't function under a Chalice=0 and I'm not going to play that against myself for them (FWisp). In this matchup I've been cutting most of the combo (leaving 1x LED, 2x Salvagers) and relying on Mentor/Ballista/Karn to get there - all of which are awesome vs them.

FYI, I tested with Spyglass a lot, I love the card, but it was ultimately too-low impact for my liking and I no longer play it. It was also often a trap that would lead to overboarding since most decks are going to have activated abilities.

Good luck with the deck - it's a blast to play!

Thanks for your response. In the UR Delver matchup I knew that my opponent played null rod in his board in the past so I had that advantage. That’s interesting vs sneak and show. I never thought to cut all the mentors but I can see how that absolutely makes sense. That’s funny how in Rw painter you pretty much cut the combo and go Aggro leaving in a few combo pieces to three card combo them, but in bomberman you go all in on the combo. I find myself bringing in spyglass for sneak and show and any Jace/liliana deck. I feel the opponent always has a way to deal with it but that’s one more piece of their removal that’s not hitting one of our business spells.

The deck has been a blast to play, even online, where it can sometimes be a nightmare with all the clicks. I’ll only play it in practice rooms and won’t play it in an actual online league for that reason. Definitely more fun to play in paper though. I find it great how your opponent can be so far ahead and if you get that one draw sometimes the game just ends and your opponent has that look of wth just happened?

[Kilem]

hi, I played a bomberman deck at GP Shizuoka and ranked top32. It's first time for me to play this bomberman build on Thursday's PTQ and learned a lot during the whole event. It's a lot fun to play this deck and here is the deck list.

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Ancient Den
4 Glimmervoid
1 Spire of Industry
3 Auriok Salvagers
4 Walking Ballista
2 Sai, Master Thopterist
4 The Antiquities of War
3 Karn, Scion of Urza
4 Intuition
1 Unburial Rites
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Opal
3 Dimir Signet
1 Azorius Signet
1 Lodestone Bauble
1 Enginneered Explosives
1 Search for Azcanta

Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Helm of Obdience
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Choke
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Echoing Truth
1 Ethersworn Canonist

This deck is most based on Tamura Hajime and Tanaka Mikito's design. Though I think the first player who started using Intuition and Unburial Rites is Katayose Takahito. Intuition is very powerful in this deck. Normally you search for Salvagers, Unburial Rites and LED/Ballista which finds you 2 combo pieces. The deck can win on turn 2 by Auriok Salvagers but it's very rare. Fair decks can not beat Antiquities of War. And of course turn1 chalice on 1 is usually a free win. Now I think Karn and Search for Azcanta are not must in the deck but I have no idea what cards to replace.
It's interesting I paired with Tanaka Mikito 2 years ago at GP Kyoto. He was playing a human based bomberman deck with Magus of the Moon and Dark Confidant while I was playing Eldrazi Stompy. I luckily won game 3 by turn1 chalice on 0 and stopped his Mox Opal.

2bye

R3 ANT
G1 He duressed me on turn1 and left me nothing. I topdecked chalice on turn3 and turn4.
G2 I had Leyline in opening hand. He thoughtseized me on turn1 and I topdecked chalice again.
3-0

R4 Maverick
G1 He played bird on turn1 and I combo on turn2.
G2 Exchanged cards on the first several turns. On turn6, I draw Salvagers and I have LED in the graveyard and Ballista in the battlefield while I only have 4 mana avaliable. I played Auriok Salvagers and pass. He played Green Sun's Zenith to find Ooze and had 1 mana left. He didn't active Ooze on his turn and I untapped. I thought I have won and tapped 2 lands to active Salvagers. But at that time I have Seat of the Synod, Glimmervoid, Mox Opal and Dimir Signet on the battlefield and can not active Salvagers again. Ooze exiled LED and I then lost quickly. Both of us made huge mistake in this game.
G3 He had too many artifact hates and won the game.
On G2 and G3 I planned to play fair game but I didn't draw any Antiquities of War or Karn.
3-1

R5 BUG Delver
G1 Turn2 Chalice on 1
G2 He played Pyromancer and had all the counters.
G3 Turn2 Sai and made 3 thopters. He pyroblasted Sai but can not handle 3 thopters.
4-1

R6 UR Delver
G1 He played delver and flipped with Daze on turn2. But he can not beat turn2 Chalice on 1.
G2 He played Stormchaser Mage on turn2. I have EE to handle it. But he played 2 Delvers on turn3 and flipped on turn4 to kill me quickly.
G3 Turn1 Chalice on 1 and he didn't have FOW.
5-1

R7 Reanimate
G1 He thoughtseized me on turn1 and had Tiderspout Tyrant on turn2. I played Karn but can't find anything can stop 5/5 flying.
G2 I started with 2 Leylines. On turn3 I have Salvagers and Intuition in my hand and passed the turn. He then thoughtseized me and I played Intuition. I side out AOW, Karn and Unburial Rites and I searched for Salvagers, Karn(only 1 left) and Search for Azcanta. He left me Salvagers.
I think I played very bad here. If I searched for Ballista should win me the game. If he left me Ballista and discard the Salvagers in my hand. Next turn I can play a 2/2 Ballista and close the game quickly. At that time I learned that if you have no idea what to search with Intuition, you should search for at least one Ballista because you can have Ballista back later.
Finally I can't do anything with Salvagers and LED in the following turns and can't draw any outs like Helm or Ballista. He played Liliana, the Last Hope and -7 to win the game.
5-2

R8 Zombardment
G1 I had a 2/2 Ballista on turn2 and Chalice on 1 later.
G2 He can not beat my opening Leyline.
6-2

R9 Sneak and Show
G1 I mulliganed and he played Preordain. I luckily draw Salvagers and combo on turn3, but he had FOW.
G2 Turn1 Chalice on 1. He had Abrade and showed Emrakul on turn3. I draw Salvagers on Turn4 and got FOWed again. If I draw it one turn earlier and showed it should win me the game.
6-3

R10 Soldiers
G1 He played Thalia and I had Ballista. Then he played Chalice on 1 do nothing to me. I played AOW he can not stop.
G2 He played Thalia and I had Ballista. I played AOW and he had Council's Judgment. Then I combo to win the game.
7-3

R11 DNT
G1 He played Thalia I can not handle. Then he had Port and two Wastelands to close the game. I played some sol lands and did nothing else. So he had no idea what I was playing.
G2 I combo on T3 and he can not stop me.
G3 He played Thalia and I had 2/2 Ballista on turn2. He disenchated Ballista and sugicaled my Ballista. I played Salvagers and he had STP. Then he played Recruiter to find Revoker. But I played Intuition to find Salvagers, Unburail Rites and Bauble on that turn and win the game with led on the battlefield next turn.
He told me that he thought he had won the game when he sugicaled Ballista.
8-3

R12 SNT
G1 He FOWed Salvagers and showed Omniscience.
G2 He mana screwed and didn't run smooth. I played Chalice and won by AOW.
G3 He mulliganed but countered my turn1 Chalice, turn2 Chalice and turn3 AOW. I had Salvagers and LED in my hand and draw Ballista. He thought I was lucky to draw Ballista though at that time I can get my Chalices back and play them again.
9-3

R13 Eldrazi Stompy
G1 He mulliganed and didn't run smooth. I had nothing but one Ballista. He then played 2 Matter Reshapers, Thought-Knot Seer and Batterskull. Luckily my Ballista bumped to 5/5 to keep the board. I finally draw another Ballista to win the game.
G2 He mulliganed again and I played a turn1 Spyglass and hope to play turn2 Karn. He kept a hand like Thought-Knot Seer, Endbringer, Ulamog, Ratchet Bomb, Cavern of Souls and Waste. But I can't make 4 mana on turn2 and he draw Eldrazi Temple on turn3 to play Seer. Seer exiled Karn and then I had nothing but 2 LED in my hand. On turn5 I topdecked Intuition and combo in the same turn with 4 life left.
10-3

R14 Depths
G1 I luckily had Sai and made some thopters to block 20/20. He tried to play Crop Rotation to find Bojuka Bog to stop my combo. But I had 4 mana open to active Salvager again.
G2 I had a turn1 Spyglass. He had a hand like Hexmage, Assassin's Trophy, Bayou and Depths. I named Hexmage. Turn2 he played Hexmage first and I had Ballista. Then I played AOW and thought I had won. He then played Crop Rotation to find Stage to close the game.
G3 I mulliganed to 5 and kept a hand Glimmervoid*2, Bauble, Dimir Signet, AOW. Turn1 I played Bauble and Glimmervoid. He Abrupt Decayed my Bauble. I actived Bauble and sacrificed Glimmervoid. Luckily I draw a City of Traitor and played Dimir Signet on turn2 and AOW on turn3. He couldn't make 20/20 while I have 5 5/5 to close the game.
11-3

R15 ID 11-3-1

[f7eleven]

Congrats on the finish! I love Antiquities War and have had fun with it in other, non-Bomberman decks.

[f7eleven]

I played in MTGFirst's final Quest for Power of the year - roughly a $10K with a Black Lotus to 1st, Mishra's Workshop to 2nd, an Underground Sea for 3rd and 4th, and a Tropical Island for 5th through 8th, plus $100 credit for 9th through 16th.

I wanted a second Ethersworn Canonist in the SB for Storm, and moving the SB Karakas to the main (2x total) was the easy swap since Marit Lage is really popular in and around Baltimore. Back down to 1x Plains.

Those were the only changes since Eternal Weekend.

4 Ancient Den
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
2 Karakas
1 Plains
4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Walking Ballista
4 Karn, Scion of Urza
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lodestone Bauble
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Mox Opal
4 Urza's Bauble
Sideboard:
2 Aura of Silence
1 Cast Out
3 Containment Priest
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Sanctum Prelate
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Tormod's Crypt

Round 1 - Aggro Loam
I have to play my buddy who borrowed a couple cards and we both know what the other is playing. The matchup is rough, especially when they know to Chalice on zero before the match even begins.

Game 1 an early Gaddock Teeg strands a Karn in my hand. I pick off a small KotR with a Ballista which buys me enough time to combo.

-4 Chalice
-2 Karn
-1 Mox Opal
-1 Urza's Bauble
+2 Aura of Silence
+1 Cast Out
+2 Ensnaring Bridge
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Sanctum Prelate

I decided against bringing in Crypts feeling they were too low impact since nabbing multiples of PFire and/or Loam hardly ever happens, plus I expected to be facing a Chalice on 0. Also, temporarily shrinking Knights doesn't buy as much time as a Bridge does. Karn's -2 and Bridge are a nonbo, so I shave a couple for the bridges. Prelate comes in even though Chalice comes out since naming 2 stops Abrupt Decay.

Game 2 an early Chalice on 0 and a Punishing Fire to clean up my Mentor and monks. Then an Assassin's Trophy hits my Bridge and I die to Knight beats.

+2 Karn
+1 Opal
-2 Bridges
-1 Urza's Bauble

On the play I want to be able to get an Opal in play, preferably with metalcraft, on turn 1 before he can play a Chalice. And then hope to be faster, so Karns back in and Bridges back out.

Game 3 I do have an Opal in play and uncracked baubles to turn it on before he plays his Chalice. An Aura of Silence makes him pay 4 for a Sylvan Library and threatens to remove the Chalice, but I'm a Salvagers away from comboing, and killing the Chalice before I can win would let him play another. Some Ancient Dens let me crack the baubles to dig further and I make sure to protect the LED in hand from any Liliana's. He does find a Liiiana which forces some discards and I find a Karn that starts up-ticking to both dig and not play into Liliana -2. An Assassin's Trophy takes out Karn though and I die to Dark Confidant, Dryad Arbor, Ramunap Excavator beats before I can find the Salvagers.

My friend ends up going 4-0-2, double drawing in top 8
(0-1)

Round 2 - ANT
Game 1 he mulligans to 5 and then never plays a card while I have turn-1 Chalice into Mentor into Karn and beat down quickly

I suspect combo from the no-land keep, but decide to make nearly zero changes - the one being:
+1 Cast Out
-1 Urza's Bauble

Game 2 he keeps 7 and I don't have Chalice and get stormed.

+2 Ethersworn Canonist
+2 Tormod's Crypt
+1 Sanctum Prelate
+2 Aura of Silence
-1 Cast out
-4 Karn
-2 Mentor

Game 3 I go Chalice on 1 into Chalice on 2 into slow combo with Urza's Bauble to see his hand and draw 40 cards.
(1-1)

Round 3 - ANT
Game 1 we go undercover, winning with Eldrazi cards.. Chalice plus Ballista/Karn beats.

+2 Ethersworn Canonist
+2 Tormod's Crypt
+1 Sanctum Prelate
+2 Aura of Silence
-4 Karn
-1 Urza's Bauble
-2 Mentor

Game 2 the only sideboard card I see is an Aura of Silence that gets discarded, but the opponent's combo turn only produces 10 goblins while I have a 1/1 Ballista in play. I play a Salvagers, block 2 and shoot 1 to take 7. Then return Ballista and play it as a 2/2 to block 2 more goblins next turn and shoot 2 (3 left). I'm mindful not to go too low with Ancient Tombs, but am able to rebuy and replay Ballista again and stabilize at 3 life and attack for the win.

He does say that he sideboarded for Eldrazi, which probably just means he didn't bring in Surgicals.
(2-1)

Round 4 - Mono R stompy
Game 1 he plays a turn 1 Bloodmoon on the play but I'm able to play a turn 2 Karn anyway. Baubles get played but not cracked and another Karn follows while I beat down as quickly with constructs as I can before he finds a Fiery Confluence, and I steal game 1

+2 Aura of Silence
+1 Cast Out
+1 Sanctum Prelate
+2 Swords to Plowshares
-4 Chalice
-1 Urza's Bauble
-1 Mentor

Game 2 he has the Chalice for 0 on turn 1, but I have the Swords to Plowshares for his follow-up Goblin. I Cast Out the Chalice and drop my hand fearing a second Chalice and play Karn. He has a Trinisphere a turn late and I start attacking while playing 3-mana baubles. I have a turn where I know his top card is a blank and decide to attack face instead of a Chandra that can only tick up, setting up a lethal attack the following turn as long as the card second from the top isn't relevant. Unfortunately the Chandra+ finds a Bridge and I'm punished. Two Fiery Confluences later and on to game 3.

Game 3 I have a turn 1 Mentor and a monk. He plays a turn 1 Bridge with two Spirit Guides. My second turn is an Aura of Silence that ends up stranding artifacts in his hand so I can keep attacking for the win.
(3-1)

Round 5 - Dredge
Game 1 turn 1 Chalice into turn 2 combo with Lodestone Bauble though the head judge says my opponent can replace each draw with dredge, even with no cards in library. Luckily every nearby player chimes in to correct him and he looks up the ruling (you can't dredge unless you have at least that many cards in your library).

+3 Containment Priest
+2 Tormod's Crypt
-4 Karn
-1 Mentor

Game 2 he hits my Chalice with a Cabal Therapy but can't flash it back since he didn't hit a Bridge from Below. I have the LED and a Ballista already and find a Salvagers and a Petal among my 3 draws for another turn-2 combo.
(4-1)

Round 6 - Esper Stoneblade
We can't draw because there's a 10 with better breakers vs a 9 that would pass either of us on breakers if we are the last three 13's for the last two spots.

Game 1 he has an EE to decimate my board but I get to keep my Mentor, which makes chump blockers for Batterskull. I had played an LED before the EE so when I find a Salvagers that is uncounterable I'm a mana short of comboing immediately. Jace comes down and bounces the Savlagers and the following turn I decide to play a freshly drawn Ballista to take out Jace. When I replay the Salvagers the following turn I do have the extra mana to combo immediately - probably my last opportunity to do so since he has a Jitte with 2 counters on it.

+2 Aura of Silence
+1 Cast Out
-2 Urza's Bauble
-1 Walking Ballista

Game 2 I have the turn-1 Chalice and he searches up Batterskull with Stoneforge Mystic while I make a Mentor. He has Back to Basics but I am still able to play a Karn to make a 5/5 to trump the germ. Karn then starts ticking up to find lands while he's pinging it with a Baleful Strix each turn. I -1 Karn to get back and play an Aura of Silence to protect from an EE. I can't blow the Aura on the Back to Basics though or I lose that EE protection, so we draw-go for a while until I have enough to start attacking through the Baterskull's potential +8 lifegain per round. He ends up scooping, probably a turn or two early, but he had a hand full of 1CMC's and had had enough.
(5-1) and 1st seed in Top 8

Quarterfinals - Sneak & Show
I think the split was like $600 each, but my opponent and I were both there for the Lotus, so no split.

Game 1 I have turn-1 Chalice, turn-2 Mentor and monks make quick work of him while he can't cantrip.

+3 Containment Priest
+2 Ensnaring Bridge
+1 Cast Out
+2 Aura of Silence
+1 Sanctum Prelate
-4 Karn
-4 Mentor
-1 City of Traitors
I wait to see if he has Omniscience before bringing in the Ethersworn Canonists. Siding out a land might seem odd, but I think it's fine on the draw AND when siding out Karns.

Game 2 my turn 1 is one of each bauble, LED, Opal, Petal, Cavern (on Human) and the only card left in my hand is Containment Priest. He casts Show and Tell on his second turn and I flash in Priest. He chooses to put nothing in :).
I draw a bunch of cards an play a 2/2 Ballista that can go to 3 with the LED+Petal if he Pyroclasms. I beat down down until he's at 9 and he Abrades my Priest and plays another Show and Tell, putting in a Griselbrand that he can't activate because of Ballista. I draw and play an Ensnaring Bridge then spend the next few turns just adding a counter to Ballista.
When I have a 5/5 Ballista I play another as a 3/3 using a Cavern on Construct (that was clearly marked because I still have the one on Human also) which he FoW's, going to 8. I let FoW resolve, my Ballista resolves and I ping him 8 times.

Semifinals - Infect
The split is $1,100 each, but I'm the only one who declines.

Game 1 My 7 has no lands then my 6 and 5 were 3x Karn + 3x Sol lands, then 3x Karn + 2x Sol lands. I go to 4 and am able to put up a fight with a Mentor and some baubles, but even though his hand wasn't great either he pays 4 mana for a lethal Become Immense on Blighted Agent.

+2 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Cast Out
-3 Karn

Game 2 I have a Chalice and uncounterable Mentor that out races him.

Game 3 I decide to play a turn-1 Chalice without playing a Lotus Petal first since my plan is to play a turn-2 Mentor that I don't have a Cavern for. He does Daze the Chalice, but then also has FoW for my Mentor. I'm cracking baubles on my turn, hoping to draw one of the instants I sided in, but he makes a smart play, kicking a Vines of Vastwood on his infector during his upkeep while my triggers are on the stack to cancel my outs (I don't draw any anyway, but I liked his line). Then an Invigorate for lethal.

I never saw a single Ballista during the match, but was happy with my play and mulligan decisions.

I take the Underground Sea for finishing 3rd with no regrets (play-wise nor split-wise).

[SDBobPlissken]

I played in MTGFirst's final Quest for Power of the year - roughly a $10K with a Black Lotus to 1st, Mishra's Workshop to 2nd, an Underground Sea for 3rd and 4th, and a Tropical Island for 5th through 8th, plus $100 credit for 9th through 16th.

I wanted a second Ethersworn Canonist in the SB for Storm, and moving the SB Karakas to the main (2x total) was the easy swap since Marit Lage is really popular in and around Baltimore. Back down to 1x Plains.

Those were the only changes since Eternal Weekend.

4 Ancient Den
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
2 Karakas
1 Plains
4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Walking Ballista
4 Karn, Scion of Urza
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lodestone Bauble
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Mox Opal
4 Urza's Bauble
Sideboard:
2 Aura of Silence
1 Cast Out
3 Containment Priest
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Sanctum Prelate
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Tormod's Crypt

Round 1 - Aggro Loam
I have to play my buddy who borrowed a couple cards and we both know what the other is playing. The matchup is rough, especially when they know to Chalice on zero before the match even begins.

Game 1 an early Gaddock Teeg strands a Karn in my hand. I pick off a small KotR with a Ballista which buys me enough time to combo.

-4 Chalice
-2 Karn
-1 Mox Opal
-1 Urza's Bauble
+2 Aura of Silence
+1 Cast Out
+2 Ensnaring Bridge
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Sanctum Prelate

I decided against bringing in Crypts feeling they were too low impact since nabbing multiples of PFire and/or Loam hardly ever happens, plus I expected to be facing a Chalice on 0. Also, temporarily shrinking Knights doesn't buy as much time as a Bridge does. Karn's -2 and Bridge are a nonbo, so I shave a couple for the bridges. Prelate comes in even though Chalice comes out since naming 2 stops Abrupt Decay.

Game 2 an early Chalice on 0 and a Punishing Fire to clean up my Mentor and monks. Then an Assassin's Trophy hits my Bridge and I die to Knight beats.

+2 Karn
+1 Opal
-2 Bridges
-1 Urza's Bauble

On the play I want to be able to get an Opal in play, preferably with metalcraft, on turn 1 before he can play a Chalice. And then hope to be faster, so Karns back in and Bridges back out.

Game 3 I do have an Opal in play and uncracked baubles to turn it on before he plays his Chalice. An Aura of Silence makes him pay 4 for a Sylvan Library and threatens to remove the Chalice, but I'm a Salvagers away from comboing, and killing the Chalice before I can win would let him play another. Some Ancient Dens let me crack the baubles to dig further and I make sure to protect the LED in hand from any Liliana's. He does find a Liiiana which forces some discards and I find a Karn that starts up-ticking to both dig and not play into Liliana -2. An Assassin's Trophy takes out Karn though and I die to Dark Confidant, Dryad Arbor, Ramunap Excavator beats before I can find the Salvagers.

My friend ends up going 4-0-2, double drawing in top 8
(0-1)

Round 2 - ANT
Game 1 he mulligans to 5 and then never plays a card while I have turn-1 Chalice into Mentor into Karn and beat down quickly

I suspect combo from the no-land keep, but decide to make nearly zero changes - the one being:
+1 Cast Out
-1 Urza's Bauble

Game 2 he keeps 7 and I don't have Chalice and get stormed.

+2 Ethersworn Canonist
+2 Tormod's Crypt
+1 Sanctum Prelate
+2 Aura of Silence
-1 Cast out
-4 Karn
-2 Mentor

Game 3 I go Chalice on 1 into Chalice on 2 into slow combo with Urza's Bauble to see his hand and draw 40 cards.
(1-1)

Round 3 - ANT
Game 1 we go undercover, winning with Eldrazi cards.. Chalice plus Ballista/Karn beats.

+2 Ethersworn Canonist
+2 Tormod's Crypt
+1 Sanctum Prelate
+2 Aura of Silence
-4 Karn
-1 Urza's Bauble
-2 Mentor

Game 2 the only sideboard card I see is an Aura of Silence that gets discarded, but the opponent's combo turn only produces 10 goblins while I have a 1/1 Ballista in play. I play a Salvagers, block 2 and shoot 1 to take 7. Then return Ballista and play it as a 2/2 to block 2 more goblins next turn and shoot 2 (3 left). I'm mindful not to go too low with Ancient Tombs, but am able to rebuy and replay Ballista again and stabilize at 3 life and attack for the win.

He does say that he sideboarded for Eldrazi, which probably just means he didn't bring in Surgicals.
(2-1)

Round 4 - Mono R stompy
Game 1 he plays a turn 1 Bloodmoon on the play but I'm able to play a turn 2 Karn anyway. Baubles get played but not cracked and another Karn follows while I beat down as quickly with constructs as I can before he finds a Fiery Confluence, and I steal game 1

+2 Aura of Silence
+1 Cast Out
+1 Sanctum Prelate
+2 Swords to Plowshares
-4 Chalice
-1 Urza's Bauble
-1 Mentor

Game 2 he has the Chalice for 0 on turn 1, but I have the Swords to Plowshares for his follow-up Goblin. I Cast Out the Chalice and drop my hand fearing a second Chalice and play Karn. He has a Trinisphere a turn late and I start attacking while playing 3-mana baubles. I have a turn where I know his top card is a blank and decide to attack face instead of a Chandra that can only tick up, setting up a lethal attack the following turn as long as the card second from the top isn't relevant. Unfortunately the Chandra+ finds a Bridge and I'm punished. Two Fiery Confluences later and on to game 3.

Game 3 I have a turn 1 Mentor and a monk. He plays a turn 1 Bridge with two Spirit Guides. My second turn is an Aura of Silence that ends up stranding artifacts in his hand so I can keep attacking for the win.
(3-1)

Round 5 - Dredge
Game 1 turn 1 Chalice into turn 2 combo with Lodestone Bauble though the head judge says my opponent can replace each draw with dredge, even with no cards in library. Luckily every nearby player chimes in to correct him and he looks up the ruling (you can't dredge unless you have at least that many cards in your library).

+3 Containment Priest
+2 Tormod's Crypt
-4 Karn
-1 Mentor

Game 2 he hits my Chalice with a Cabal Therapy but can't flash it back since he didn't hit a Bridge from Below. I have the LED and a Ballista already and find a Salvagers and a Petal among my 3 draws for another turn-2 combo.
(4-1)

Round 6 - Esper Stoneblade
We can't draw because there's a 10 with better breakers vs a 9 that would pass either of us on breakers if we are the last three 13's for the last two spots.

Game 1 he has an EE to decimate my board but I get to keep my Mentor, which makes chump blockers for Batterskull. I had played an LED before the EE so when I find a Salvagers that is uncounterable I'm a mana short of comboing immediately. Jace comes down and bounces the Savlagers and the following turn I decide to play a freshly drawn Ballista to take out Jace. When I replay the Salvagers the following turn I do have the extra mana to combo immediately - probably my last opportunity to do so since he has a Jitte with 2 counters on it.

+2 Aura of Silence
+1 Cast Out
-2 Urza's Bauble
-1 Walking Ballista

Game 2 I have the turn-1 Chalice and he searches up Batterskull with Stoneforge Mystic while I make a Mentor. He has Back to Basics but I am still able to play a Karn to make a 5/5 to trump the germ. Karn then starts ticking up to find lands while he's pinging it with a Baleful Strix each turn. I -1 Karn to get back and play an Aura of Silence to protect from an EE. I can't blow the Aura on the Back to Basics though or I lose that EE protection, so we draw-go for a while until I have enough to start attacking through the Baterskull's potential +8 lifegain per round. He ends up scooping, probably a turn or two early, but he had a hand full of 1CMC's and had had enough.
(5-1) and 1st seed in Top 8

Quarterfinals - Sneak & Show
I think the split was like $600 each, but my opponent and I were both there for the Lotus, so no split.

Game 1 I have turn-1 Chalice, turn-2 Mentor and monks make quick work of him while he can't cantrip.

+3 Containment Priest
+2 Ensnaring Bridge
+1 Cast Out
+2 Aura of Silence
+1 Sanctum Prelate
-4 Karn
-4 Mentor
-1 City of Traitors
I wait to see if he has Omniscience before bringing in the Ethersworn Canonists. Siding out a land might seem odd, but I think it's fine on the draw AND when siding out Karns.

Game 2 my turn 1 is one of each bauble, LED, Opal, Petal, Cavern (on Human) and the only card left in my hand is Containment Priest. He casts Show and Tell on his second turn and I flash in Priest. He chooses to put nothing in :).
I draw a bunch of cards an play a 2/2 Ballista that can go to 3 with the LED+Petal if he Pyroclasms. I beat down down until he's at 9 and he Abrades my Priest and plays another Show and Tell, putting in a Griselbrand that he can't activate because of Ballista. I draw and play an Ensnaring Bridge then spend the next few turns just adding a counter to Ballista.
When I have a 5/5 Ballista I play another as a 3/3 using a Cavern on Construct (that was clearly marked because I still have the one on Human also) which he FoW's, going to 8. I let FoW resolve, my Ballista resolves and I ping him 8 times.

Semifinals - Infect
The split is $1,100 each, but I'm the only one who declines.

Game 1 My 7 has no lands then my 6 and 5 were 3x Karn + 3x Sol lands, then 3x Karn + 2x Sol lands. I go to 4 and am able to put up a fight with a Mentor and some baubles, but even though his hand wasn't great either he pays 4 mana for a lethal Become Immense on Blighted Agent.

+2 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Cast Out
-3 Karn

Game 2 I have a Chalice and uncounterable Mentor that out races him.

Game 3 I decide to play a turn-1 Chalice without playing a Lotus Petal first since my plan is to play a turn-2 Mentor that I don't have a Cavern for. He does Daze the Chalice, but then also has FoW for my Mentor. I'm cracking baubles on my turn, hoping to draw one of the instants I sided in, but he makes a smart play, kicking a Vines of Vastwood on his infector during his upkeep while my triggers are on the stack to cancel my outs (I don't draw any anyway, but I liked his line). Then an Invigorate for lethal.

I never saw a single Ballista during the match, but was happy with my play and mulligan decisions.

I take the Underground Sea for finishing 3rd with no regrets (play-wise nor split-wise).


Nice report. Great read. I was on my toes as to whether you won the lotus til the very end. Underground sea ain’t bad either. That Aggro Loam matchup seems really tough. I stole game 1 from an opponent once and it was only because he went turn 1 chalice for 1 instead of zero. Your sideboarding is really helpful. I think I’m gonna try the stp in board as well even though it’s not good with the chalice. The argument makes sense that they are gonna have an answer to it in game 2 and 3, also good for opposing chalice decks.

[pettdan]

This is a useless post but "+1", really nice report! I want to play monowhite bomberman too now..

[Mr. Safety]

A local player here in Maine split in the finals at a 1K recently with mono-white Bomberman. I'll try and nab the list of mtgtop8 if anyone's interested. Sean is a really good player, and honestly a really good brew-master.

EDIT: https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=20671&d=336196&f=LE

It says he got 2nd, but that was only because they split in the finals and Casey had better tie-breakers. He was beating up on Lands players all day (fun fact: in the top 4, 3 were Lands decks.)

[Rebelwithapen216]

I could be wrong here, but wouldn't it make sense for the mono-white lists to play 4 maindeck canonists? It seems like such a perfect card for this deck (artifact/hate-piece that's also a threat, human, pretty much asymmetrical impact, great against a variety of strategies, etc.). I've been really impressed with it in painter, and they play 3-4 even with tutors.

[8bit9mm]

I could be wrong here, but wouldn't it make sense for the mono-white lists to play 4 maindeck canonists? It seems like such a perfect card for this deck (artifact/hate-piece that's also a threat, human, pretty much asymmetrical impact, great against a variety of strategies, etc.). I've been really impressed with it in painter, and they play 3-4 even with tutors.

I was thinking the same thing.

I haven't played the mono-W version (played Imperial Bomberman Stompy for a decent stint) but the downside seems negligible.
I also have been very impressed by the card in Painter, running 3 main, plus a 4th in the side. Although, it does have the additional upside in Painter of making your red-blasts always win the counter war.

A lot of times, a Canonist wins you the game against the fair matchups if you can get it to stick around, along with having the added bonus of locking out Storm and making life inconvenient for Omni players.

[f7eleven]

Canonist is great in the sideboard, but the maindeck is so tight - I think there's only one actual flex spot in monoW and that is the 4th Karn. I have no idea how you would fit 4x Canonist in the main.

Shortcake is getting extra value out of their Canonists since it makes your own counterspells (REBs) better, and it has synergy with Goblin Welder and Smuggler's Copter.

Also, one of the reasons I think monoW is the BEST Chalice deck (that just happens to lose to other Chalice decks) is because we can play our Chalices on 1 AND 2 and not worry about it, as neither affects us.

[Rebelwithapen216]

If you're playing chalice on 1 and 2, then I think the downside of having your own canonists countered is pretty negligible because most decks will be locked out by that anyway. Still, you can resolve your own canonists through cavern on human.

Is a 3rd maindeck karn, a single inventor's fair, and a single lodestone bauble really all that important? These seem like pretty flexible slots as well. Here's what I just jotted down:

4x Ancient Den
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Cavern of Souls
3x City of Traitors
3x Plains

4x Auriok Salvagers
4x Ethersworn Canonist
4x Monastery Mentor
4x Walking Ballista

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
4x Mishra's Bauble
4x Mox Opal
4x Urza's Bauble

2x Karn, Scion of Urza

[f7eleven]

I wouldn't play the deck (in paper) without a Lodestone Bauble. I've tested a lot at 18 lands, and definitely prefer 19. I would also miss having 4 Karns.

All that said, though, that's probably a good list for online leagues where storm is really popular (and Lodestone Bauble is unplayable). I'd still go back to 19 lands though, cutting a Canonist. I'd also cut another Canonist for a Board the Weatherlight as the psuedo 3rd Karn/3rd Canonist and as a single card that double triggers Mentor.

[f7eleven]

http://mythicspoiler.com/rna/cards/laviniaazoriusrenegade1.jpg

I'm not sure how to feel about this... a Human that stops the opponent from playing a Chalice on 0!!!

Another Chalice on 0 that can be played against us. :(

[cosmiccoil]

http://mythicspoiler.com/rna/cards/laviniaazoriusrenegade1.jpg

I'm not sure how to feel about this... a Human that stops the opponent from playing a Chalice on 0!!!

Another Chalice on 0 that can be played against us. :(

I highly doubt there will be that many decks that can run this except a U/W build of Bomberman--other than Legacy Humans. It's a human so it is uncounterable in our deck. It stops EE on zero and Chalice on zero. it stops FoW and Terminus. It stops the biggest threats out of Moon Stompy and the noncreature threats in Post. It also further slows down storm and functions as a chalice on zero against them without turning off anything in our deck. I have always liked the blue splash for Trinket Mage and this slots nicely into the sideboard as a two-of.

[cosmiccoil]

I could be wrong here, but wouldn't it make sense for the mono-white lists to play 4 maindeck canonists? It seems like such a perfect card for this deck (artifact/hate-piece that's also a threat, human, pretty much asymmetrical impact, great against a variety of strategies, etc.). I've been really impressed with it in painter, and they play 3-4 even with tutors.

I ran a two-of in a mono-white list and thought it performed well (https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=20671&d=336196&f=LE). It was an annoying card for a lot of decks to deal with, it pumped up Karn tokens, and I found that running Karn as a four-of is overkill. Maindeck hate for other combo matchups is always nice.

[angelbaka]

I think there might be room to split the difference between the Unclaimed Territory and normal lists. I don't think playing Mono-W really gains you much (although having basic plains to search for off Trophy is nice) since most mono-w builds are only running 2-3 plains. A great as Karn is (and man, he's great), I think running 4 of a legendary at the top of the curve is a pretty bad plan and that slot could be served better by almost anything else. Sai has been amazing for me and I think he's well worth playing if you have the mana for it in your list.

The list I've been testing with recently is as follows:

Mana:
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Spire of Industry
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
2 Ancient Den

4 Mox Opal
4 Lotus Petal
2 Lion's Eye Diamond

Creatures:
4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Dark Confidant
3 Walking Ballista
3 Monastery Mentor
2 Sai, Master Thopterist

Draw:
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Lodestone Bauble

Other:
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Karn, Scion of Urza

Sideboard:
2 Containment Priest
2 Kitesail Freebooter
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Cast Out
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Trinket Mage
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Engineered Explosives


This build can theoretically support any color splash (as long as that color is 'Human'). I don't know why people keep having this argument about plaing bob or playing Karn. They're both absolutely absurd; play both. Sai functions as a Mentor that doesn't end the game as quickly but is harder to kill and also draws cards (plus the flying on the tokens is massively relevant) at the downside of being legendary, which is why I replaced the 4th mentor with the second Sai. Having so much draw power helps a lot with the consistency issues and having the 'fifth' mentor makes all the air feel way less noticable.

If I was going to play more land (I play about 4 less than most of you seem to) I'd probably drop some combination of lodestones/ballista for Inventors' fairs and maybe more true rainbow lands. Activating Salvagers is occassionally awkward with the current mana base and his power as a midrange grind card or to pump out tokens with mentor or Sai shouldn't be underestimated or forgotten.

I like trinket mage far more than recruiter, although I'm aware I seem to be in the minority there. Part of that is that I feel you can validly substitute LED slots for trinket mages (which is great because LED is the most 'air' card in the deck), but part of that is that Recruiter always felt painfully expensive and slow when I played him. Trinket Mage is also a positive hit for Sai/Mentor when you draw him, whereas Recruiter is a subpar body and a card stuck in your hand for next turn. Maybe he's better in builds with more lands and I just didn't have the mana desity to make good use of him when I tested it.

I'm mostly happy with the sideboard. I still admantly believe that Leyline is significantly better than Crypt as far as graveyard hate goes. I've been liking Cast Out as a good general-purpose answer, although I just saw someone's post earlier about Hostage Taker and I may very well try him out in that slot. The trinket mage package used to be in the mainboard, time will tell if it stays in the side now that Sai's taken that slot, though thus far it's still good. The new Linvala looks dope and I'm excited to try her.

For those of you on the mono-w builds with more than one Karakas, have you tried Mangara at all? I feel like there must be a decent Mangara/Karakas list out there somewhere and mono-w bomberman seems like it'd be as good as anywhere else to try it.

[f7eleven]

My buddy on the other side of the country finally picked up the missing pieces to try out the deck - he played my 75 from Dec 15 (https://www.mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=773&f=LE&meta=39) and I wrote up a sideboard guide for him. He had one loss in the swiss - to another Chalice deck (Aggro Loam), and then made it to the finals before facing another Chalice deck (MUD) and finishing 2nd -- good for a Tropical Island! He was also the feature match for each round of the top 8 if you wanna check out the VOD on twitch.tv/fadgames

I figured I'd share the sideboard guide I sent him, for the specific matchups he asked about:


Death & Taxes
We have to take out Chalice vs their Flickerwisps which means we have no protection from StP for a combo - I cut most of the combo since Mentor/Karn/Ballista are all very good vs them and they'll be bringing in Rest in Peace too. Containment Priests come in to stop instant Flickerwisps (or anything off vial) but mainly for two other reasons - first to stop their recruiter/fwisp chain since this is a really grindy matchup. second as an ambush viper for attacking revokers that are likely naming our best thing in play. I usually play around Spirit of the Labyrinth since we don't have to worry about discard. Also, Salvagers can still be very good without LED, looping Lotus Petal for Mentor triggers, drawing extra cards, or rebuying Ballista.
+2 Aura of Silence
+1 Cast Out
+3 Containment Priest
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Sanctum Prelate
-3 LED
-2 Salvagers
-4 Chalice

Reanimator
+3 Containment Priest
+2 Ensnaring Bridge
+2 Tormod's Crypt
+1 Sanctum Prelate
-4 Mentor
-4 Karn
On the play I'll bring in Canonist too
+2 Canonist
-2 Bauble

Grixis Control
+2 Aura of Silence (slows strix, stops EE, and in case they have null rod/needle/bloodmoon/counterbalance)
+2 Tormod's Crypt (good vs Snapcaster, KCommand, and Angler - i'll pop in response to a fetch just to slow an angler, so be mindful of gy count)
-1 LED
-1 Salvagers
-1 Urza's Bauble
-1 Walking Ballista

Dredge
+3 Containment Priest
+2 Tormod's Crypt
-4 Karn
-1 Mentor
Chalice on 1 is good to stop therapies and discard outlets. Keep them off 3 creatures to stop Dread Return by shooting ichorid's/narcomeobas in their draw step. Exile bridges with your ballista to their face, or to a monk

GB Depths
vs other fast combo you'll want to combo them because it's your fastest way to win, so other win-cons are cut to bring in cards that buy you time to combo, and Auras for their needles.
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Cast Out
+2 Ensnaring Bridge
+2 Tormod's Crypt
+2 Aura of Silence
-4 Mentor
-4 Karn
-1 Urza's Bauble

Miracles
vs control it's important to have Aura to stop an EE on 0, and Karn and Cavern are also very important cards. Because of their sweepers, ticking down with Karn isn't great, especially along side a Mentor already creating pressure. Karn's +1 will find lots of land to let you keep playing through a Back to Basics, the Cast Out is for Jace mostly, but if they have their own Mentor it's going to out class ours by miles. They shouldn't bring in Surgical, but they do, so play around that. Also, Mishra's Babules are good for checking the top vs a counterbalance, so don't waste them on cycles unless you're digging for something you need ASAP.
+2 Aura of Silence
+1 Sanctum Prelate
+1 Cast Out
-1 LED
-1 Salvagers
-1 Walking Ballista
-1 Urza's Bauble

Stoneblade
You can't combo through a Jitte with 4 counters, so we're always happy to see them search up Batterskull - you can cancel out lifegain and jitte triggers by blocking with monks and pinging them before damage (or just blocking with Ballista). Getting Karn's tokens to 5/5's or bigger usually handles a batteskull. Also watch out for EE from them and keep your Aura's around as long as possible.
+2 Aura of Silence
+1 Cast Out
-1 Urza's Bauble
-1 Mox Opal
-1 Walking Ballista (unless they have Baleful Strixes, then shave another Urza's Bauble or LED instead)

Dragon stompy
Winning this matchup will take some luck -- either them not drawing Chalice, or playing their Chalice on non-zero, or you having an answer (that you can actually cast through Bloodmoon) for their first Chalice and them not drawing a second. Don't blow up their Chalice on 0 on-site since it is preventing them from playing a second - wait until you either have to blow it up, or you have the combo. Also make sure you don't blow your baubles if they're giving you metalcraft for your Opal, since actual white mana will be hard to come by. They'll also pump your Karn tokens which may be your only win-con if they have multiple lock pieces.
+2 Aura of Silence
+1 Cast Out
+2 Swords to Plowshares (for goblins)
+1 Sanctum Prelate (on 4 for Fiery Confluence and Chandra)
-4 Chalice
-1 Urza's Bauble
-1 Mentor (they usually have sulfur elemental post board)

Sneak and Show
Staying at 16 life or higher, especially game 1 when we have mentors and karns can let you survive an Emrakul attack and then combo them.
we bring in a bunch of hate bears for our non-combo wincons, but the bears can still present a decent clock, which is important
+2 Ensnaring Bridge
+1 Cast Out
+1 Sanctum Prelate
+3 Containment Priest
+2 Aura of Silence (they will get Game Rules Violations for playing Petals without paying tax - also slows Sneak and can pick off an Omniscience if they don't immediately have the Emrakul)
+2 Etherswon Canonist if they have Omniscience
-4 Mentor
-4 Karn
-1 City of Traitors (on the draw)
-1 Urza's Bauble (on the play)
if bringing in 11 instead of 9, then the other two shaves are probably a Ballista and another bauble or the city of traitors regardless of play/draw

Food Chain
not a real thing - but i wouldn't worry since our combo is faster and Aura of Silence is going to be really good vs them (FC, but also Strix and Relic and Library)
+2 Aura of Silence
+2 Canonist
+1 Prelate (on 3 for Food Chain and Toxic Deluge or 2 for Abrut Decay/Assassin's Trophy or 1 for cantrips/discard/fatal pushes)
-4 Karn
-1 Urza's Bauble
i guess (haven't tested or played this matchup) I don't want to shave Opal when Aura of Silence is so key, I don't want to shave multiple baubles when we're keeping all our Mentors in, I don't want to shave Ballista's vs a Strix deck, and I don't want to shave combo vs another combo deck

Delver
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Sanctum Prelate
+1 Cast Out
if you see/know about Null Rod then Aura's have to come in too
I've been shaving in this matchup
-1 Karn
-1 Mentor
-1 Salvagers
-1 LED
though RUG delver is much more likely to have multiple Sulfur Elemental, so i'd just cut the mentors in that matchup

FYI we have zero instants pre-board, so using baubles on their turn by default both plays around discard, and makes it harder to miss a bauble trigger since you'll have a die on top of your deck. put the die on the actual number of triggers you'll have - it helps.

Post board you'll more often want to use baubles on your turn to draw Containment Priest/Swords to Plowshares/Cast Out that you can cast on their turn

[cosmiccoil]

I figured I'd share the sideboard guide I sent him, for the specific matchups he asked about:

In the interest of discussion, why are you keeping in Petal and cutting threats against control decks? The absolute weakest card against Miracles and Grixis Control, in my experience, is Petal. It also seems like you are way overvaluing using the board to avoid EE. Why not rely on Spyglass so that you don't have to bring the hardest card to cast in your deck (Aura) in for so so many matchups. It seems to me (feel to disagree) that you are spending so much time using board slots to fight a one-of in some decks. What do you think?

[cosmiccoil]

I don't think playing Mono-W really gains you much (although having basic plains to search for off Trophy is nice) since most mono-w builds are only running 2-3 plains.

The major upgrade in mono-white is not just the number of plains (which do shore up wasteland matchups and help with resolving sideboard cards against moon decks) but also the number of sol lands that can be run to help with resolving our four-drops.


I like trinket mage far more than recruiter, although I'm aware I seem to be in the minority there.

I doubt you are in the minority. Trinket Mage (and what it can grab) is significantly more powerful than Imperial Recruiter.

[f7eleven]

In the interest of discussion, why are you keeping in Petal and cutting threats against control decks? The absolute weakest card against Miracles and Grixis Control, in my experience, is Petal. It also seems like you are way overvaluing using the board to avoid EE. Why not rely on Spyglass so that you don't have to bring the hardest card to cast in your deck (Aura) in for so so many matchups. It seems to me (feel to disagree) that you are spending so much time using board slots to fight a one-of in some decks. What do you think?

Those are really good points/suggestions. I've thought a lot about whether Aura of Silence is more cute than good because of your posit. I don't see Aura of Silence as targeted hate for Engineered Explosives, similar to the way Death's Shadow decks were running Throne of Geth for Chalice.

We have to play answers for Chalice in our Sideboard. Rather than Core Tapper and/or Surge Node, we run artifact/enchantment removal that is more versatile. We also decide on removal that has synergy with Mentor. Now we're pretty much locked into Seal of Cleansing and Oblivion Ring effects

The individual power level of Aura of Silence is so much higher than Seal of Cleansing. It does the exact same thing as Seal while also preventing the opponent from even playing things we would want to destroy with Seal. With additional corner cases of potential GRV's for our opponent, preventing the opponent from emptying their hand with an Ensnaring Bridge in play, and yes, it makes one of the best cards against us virtually impossible to cast (at X=0).

I have decided that, personally, the individual power level of Aura of Silence, when compared to Seal of Cleansing, is worth the additional difficulty to cast. And it is that difficulty to cast that also means I can't shave/cut Lotus Petals when I sideboard it in.

But Aura of Silence is not being boarded in vs matchups where Seal of Cleansing would not be boarded in (except for maybe Storm when I'm on the play). The 2x Aura of Silence in my sideboard are 1-for-1 replacements for the 2x Seal of Cleansing I used to have in my sideboard.

If the power level is not worth the potential mana troubles or sideboard limitations to someone else, I would still recommend an even swap back to Seal of Cleansing. Any Sorcerous Spyglass you might want in your 75 would come at the expense of other slots. Another personal preference, but I'm not running fewer than 3 answers to Chalice.

I like Sorcerous Spyglass and tested with it a lot. I felt the power level of Spyglass and its impact on post-sideboard games with this deck didn't warrant a SB slot over the cards I'm running. I think if you disagree and are going to have them in your sideboard, the Sanctum Prelate is the first cut. Then I'd either cut a Karn in the main to promote an Ethersworn Canonist from the sideboard, freeing a second slot - OR - just maindeck a Spyglass with the same cut, for 1x main/1x side.

[cris_rj]

Made 2-2 with monowhite bomberman.
Wins:
2-1 Burn
2-0 Miracles

Lose:
1-2 U/B ninjas
0-2 Sneak and show


List:
Mana:
4 Cavern of Souls
2 karakas
3 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Ancient Den

4 Mox Opal
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

Creatures:
4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Walking Ballista
4 Monastery Mentor


Draw:
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Mishra's Bauble
1 Lodestone Bauble

Other:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Karn, Scion of Urza


Sideboard:
2 Containment Priest
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Ethresworn Cannonist
2 aura of silence
2 ensnaring bridge
2 faerie macabre
2 disenchant
1 tormods crypt
2 Swords to plowshares

I will make changes in sideboard:
-1 disenchant
-1 tormods
+1 priest
+1 sanctum prelate


Just dont know what to side in/out againt u/b faeries. What I did is -1 led, -1 auriok +2 StP
Againt Burn: -2 Karn, +2 STP (THIS IS CORRECT ?)
Miracles: -1 led, -1 auriok, +2 aura of silence

Its really dificult to beat combo decks

[cosmiccoil]

I like Sorcerous Spyglass and tested with it a lot. I felt the power level of Spyglass and its impact on post-sideboard games with this deck didn't warrant a SB slot over the cards I'm running.

I agree with you about Spyglass. The reason it has remained in my board is an irrational fear of wasteland, which was a serious problem six months ago when DnT was everywhere. I have a 1k tomorrow, and you've inspired me to try something else in that slot of my U/W build.

[cosmiccoil]

Its really dificult to beat combo decks

I would recommend Sanctum Prelate in the board to help shore up combo matchups.

[angelbaka]

So I did another primer on reddit. (https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/axu3z8/bomberman_mentor_stompy_primer_v2/) It's been a week or two (because I can't get on to the source at work), but it's up and I'd like to think it's pretty good.

That said, it's already somewhat out of date, maybe. I noticed (shortly after posting that primer) the intuition/unburial rites package in that spicy Japanese list from (a few?) pages ago, and decided to try it out. It's pretty stupid good. It works really well with LED, intuition is still a very powerful card, and the mana costs generally line up the way you want them to for the deck.

Anyway, has anyone else done any playing around with this?

[walked]

So I did another primer on reddit. (https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/axu3z8/bomberman_mentor_stompy_primer_v2/) It's been a week or two (because I can't get on to the source at work), but it's up and I'd like to think it's pretty good.

That said, it's already somewhat out of date, maybe. I noticed (shortly after posting that primer) the intuition/unburial rites package in that spicy Japanese list from (a few?) pages ago, and decided to try it out. It's pretty stupid good. It works really well with LED, intuition is still a very powerful card, and the mana costs generally line up the way you want them to for the deck.

Anyway, has anyone else done any playing around with this?

Do you have a list using the package that you like? Or are you just running the list as-is?

[maurobad2k4]

So I did another primer on reddit. (https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/axu3z8/bomberman_mentor_stompy_primer_v2/) It's been a week or two (because I can't get on to the source at work), but it's up and I'd like to think it's pretty good.

That said, it's already somewhat out of date, maybe. I noticed (shortly after posting that primer) the intuition/unburial rites package in that spicy Japanese list from (a few?) pages ago, and decided to try it out. It's pretty stupid good. It works really well with LED, intuition is still a very powerful card, and the mana costs generally line up the way you want them to for the deck.

Anyway, has anyone else done any playing around with this?

I played Bomberman yesterday at a tourney here in Brazil (84 players) to 2nd place finish. The deck felt great, fun and really powerful.

My matches : Rd1 vs D&T (2-1), Rd2 vs Grixis Shadow (0-2), Rd3 vs BUG Delver (2-1), Rd4 vs Burn (2-1), Rd5 vs BR Reanimator (2-1), Rd6 vs MUD (2-0) and Rd7 vs D&T (2-1) ;

Top 8 vs Goblins (2-0) ; Top 4 vs ANT (2-1) ;

There were no finals because the top 2 players get a spot in the league finals in December.

My list :

4 x Auriok Salvagers
4 x Monastery Mentor
4 x Walking Ballista

4 x Lion's Eye Diamond
4 x Lotus Petal
4 x Chalice of the Void
4 x Urza's Bauble
4 x Mishra's Bauble
3 x Mox Opal
1 x Lodestone Bauble

4 x Karn, Scion of Urza

4 x Ancient Tomb
4 x City of Traitors
4 x Cavern of Souls
4 x Ancient Den
2 x Plains
2 x Karakas

SB

3 x Swords to Plowshares
2 x Ethersworn Canonist
2 x Containment Priest
2 x Tormod's Crypt
2 x Ensnaring Bridge
2 x Disenchant
1 x Sorcerous Spyglass
1 x Council's Judgment

It's really hilarious comboing out with Lodestone Bauble...:tongue::laugh:

[f7eleven]

I played Bomberman yesterday at a tourney here in Brazil (84 players) to 2nd place finish. The deck felt great, fun and really powerful.



Congrats on the win! Explaining why someone has lost when you combo with Lodestone Bauble is probably the most fun thing you can do with this deck. I rock a Portuguese Lodestone Bauble here in the US for even more WTF reactions, but you'll need a French or German one. :laugh:

[maurobad2k4]

Congrats on the win! Explaining why someone has lost when you combo with Lodestone Bauble is probably the most fun thing you can do with this deck. I rock a Portuguese Lodestone Bauble here in the US for even more WTF reactions, but you'll need a French or German one. :laugh:

Thanks f7eleven ! It's really a great feeling winning games with such a bizarre card. Keep jamming Bufarinha de Magnetita (Lodestone Bauble) at your oponents then ! :wink:

About the deck, the only card that I'd change is the Council in the Sb. WW in the cost is too rough sometimes. I guess I'm swapping for a 2nd Spyglass or a Ratchet Bomb at the moment.

Two of my matches were recorded in case someone is interested :

- Rd6 vs MUD : https://www.twitch.tv/videos/400507425 at 04hs08min

- Semifinals vs ANT : https://www.twitch.tv/videos/400688970 at 01hs25min

[f7eleven]

The Legacy Pit invited me to do a series of matchups for their YouTube channel, if you wanna check it out. The Miracles matchup is normally much tougher, but then I lost vs UR Delver, which is usually a very good matchup. We also played a match vs Eldrazi Aggro which didn't get posted, where I was able to beat Chalice on 0 twice, once with a Karn fueled Mentor, then with a Ballista that grew each turn while she flooded.

https://youtu.be/lkKpjc-8OLw

[f7eleven]

- Rd6 vs MUD : https://www.twitch.tv/videos/400507425 at 04hs08min



I was wondering how you 2-0'd MUD... it was by losing the die roll (and him leading on Chalice X=1). :cool:

[maurobad2k4]

The Legacy Pit invited me to do a series of matchups for their YouTube channel, if you wanna check it out. The Miracles matchup is normally much tougher, but then I lost vs UR Delver, which is usually a very good matchup. We also played a match vs Eldrazi Aggro which didn't get posted, where I was able to beat Chalice on 0 twice, once with a Karn fueled Mentor, then with a Ballista that grew each turn while she flooded.

https://youtu.be/lkKpjc-8OLw

Ow, great ! I'll be watching as soon as I can !!

About MUD, yeah, chalice for 0 would hurt as bit, but I've beaten this line of play jamming mentors and Karn (he's really awesome) against Goblins and D&T in this same tournament.

People still dont know how to properly face this deck, so they make a lot of mistakes against us.

[Daize]

So I did another primer on reddit. (https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/axu3z8/bomberman_mentor_stompy_primer_v2/) It's been a week or two (because I can't get on to the source at work), but it's up and I'd like to think it's pretty good.

That said, it's already somewhat out of date, maybe. I noticed (shortly after posting that primer) the intuition/unburial rites package in that spicy Japanese list from (a few?) pages ago, and decided to try it out. It's pretty stupid good. It works really well with LED, intuition is still a very powerful card, and the mana costs generally line up the way you want them to for the deck.

Anyway, has anyone else done any playing around with this?

I really like the idea of intuition/unburial rites, but how does one protect it (and not lose too many turns in not doing so) while it seems like a strength of the deck is caverns protection for the creatures that can close the game by themselves. Any thoughts?

[Manroe]

I'm definitely playing this in a 5k this weekend. Looking to hammer out the sideboard. As of now. I'm looking at something like this.

2 Cast Out
2 Aura of Silence
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Containment Priest

I'm a little concerned about not having enough answers to chalice on zero with that also potentially limiting my white sources. Aura will likely be swapped with Ratchet Bomb.

I really want to have Sanctum Prelate or Sorcerous Spyglass in the board but the space is so limited.

Thoughts?

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk

[maurobad2k4]

I'm definitely playing this in a 5k this weekend. Looking to hammer out the sideboard. As of now. I'm looking at something like this.

2 Cast Out
2 Aura of Silence
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Containment Priest

I'm a little concerned about not having enough answers to chalice on zero with that also potentially limiting my white sources. Aura will likely be swapped with Ratchet Bomb.

I really want to have Sanctum Prelate or Sorcerous Spyglass in the board but the space is so limited.

Thoughts?

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk

Yeah, Aura of Silence WW mana cost can really be tough. Another option in that slot could be Disenchant or the Bombs like you said.

If you really want to use Prelate or Spyglass, I'd cut the Blessed Alliance for those.

[Manroe]

Well, went 6-1-1 and got 9th out of 157. The deck played great, had some insane games and overall I'm proud of how I played. The disappointing part was being the only 18 pointer going into the final round that couldn't ID in, then got paired against miracles and we drew on time. Was an insane match though and it was on camera and I'll happily share this week.

Cheers!

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk

[Daize]

Awesome! Congratulations! I'm really looking forward to the report. Any changes in your decklist?

[maurobad2k4]

Well, went 6-1-1 and got 9th out of 157. The deck played great, had some insane games and overall I'm proud of how I played. The disappointing part was being the only 18 pointer going into the final round that couldn't ID in, then got paired against miracles and we drew on time. Was an insane match though and it was on camera and I'll happily share this week.

Cheers!

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk

Congratulations, that was a great run ! I watched your last match, it was a bummer that you didnt top8'ed.

Could you share your list ?

[Manroe]

Congratulations, that was a great run ! I watched your last match, it was a bummer that you didnt top8'ed.

Could you share your list ?

Just posted a full tourney report in the Tourney Reports section:
https://bit.ly/2CMn0gh

[f7eleven]

Congrats on the finish, Manroe. I was afraid I was going to read that you ID'd into 9th place -- that would have sucked more! Sounds like Karn did really good work for you, and I'm still certain that 4x Karn is the right number. And yes, Karn mostly goes +1 vs Miracles, but now you know!

[f7eleven]

Karn, the Great Creator could be interesting for us. Fortunately, I don't think it's good enough to see Legacy outside of fringe decks (like ours).

Squeezing a couple into the main would give us an answer to Chalice on 0. I think an Ancient Den would move to the SB, and let us up the Plains count by one (for those currently on 4x Ancient Den list). The SB Ensnaring Bridge can go to 1x, probably.

http://mythicspoiler.com/war/cards/karnthegreatcreator.html

[f7eleven]

The more I think about new Karn, the better he seems!

A maindeckable, colorless way to kill Chalice on 0

A way to stop EE or Ratchet bomb from destroying our board.

A way to "tutor" combo pieces...

We probably move an LED and a Ballista to the SB too, which also has the corner case of insulating us a bit from Surgical Extraction.

[f7eleven]

rough draft w/ Karn 3.0:

3 Ancient Den
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
2 Karakas
2 Plains
4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Karn, the Great Creator
4 Karn, Scion of Urza
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Mox Opal
4 Urza's Bauble
3 Walking Ballista

Sideboard:

1 Ancient Den
1 Cast Out
3 Containment Priest
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Walking Ballista

[f7eleven]

play Karn 3.0 on turn-2, use -2, hold priority, crack 2x LED
get and play lattice

:cool:

[Avez]

New Karn is also great against our own deck :D Just like Chalice of the Void is

[f7eleven]

Hey - a recent reddit thread in r/mtglegacy pointed out that there was no discord server dedicated exclusively to monoW Bomberman in Legacy... So Ultimar and I created one. Please join us @ https://discord.gg/SjBjamd for all things monoW Bomberman in Legacy!

[Rationalist]

I've spent the past couple weeks toying around with a UW Intuition build with 3x Teferi, Time Raveler, 4x Skycloud Expanse and an Azorius Signet. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying that new Teferi feels fairly busted serving as a 2-land cantrip that bounces most any type of permanent maindeck, blanks countermagic when you want to lay down haymakers like Chalice and Karn, and prevents any type of interaction / removal on a critical combo turn.

Also, I believe Jarvis Yu was running f7eleven's list or something similar to it yesterday, so there's probably a video of that up on youtube for those who might be interested but not in the know.

[Barook]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiZ_t9AnazE

Jarvis Yu had a pretty good run with the deck featuring Karn, the Great Creator.

[Rationalist]

Looking forward to getting to run New Karn in paper for the first time.

For tonight, I think I'm going to go with a main-60 along the lines of

Creatures (8)

4x Auriok Salvagers
3x Monastery Mentor
1x Walking Ballista

Walkers (9)

3x Karn, The Great Creator
3x Karn, Scion of Urza
3x Teferi, Time Raveler

Artifacts (22)

3x Lion's Eye Diamond
7x Baubles
3x Mox Opal
1x Azorius Signet
4x Lotus Petal
4x Chalice of the Void

Spells (2)

2x Intuition

Lands (19)

4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Cavern of Souls
4x Skycloud Expanse
2x Ancient Den
1x Plains

In a deck with so many "I win's", I can't resist another "must force" that also cantrips and interacts. Skycloud Expanse really does not seem like a problem in a deck with this many mana-sources and that so rarely casts anything below 0 < CMC < 3.

[Rationalist]

Super Succinct Event Report / Footage:

So I went 4-0 8-0 in the Cardkingdom event last night with the list in the post above.

Here's my feature match (a little bit of sloppy use of mana, but it really didn't matter)

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/421457259?t=02h00m06s

and the post-game interview

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/421457259?t=02h27m03s

(I also tried to plug the deck in general, the thread, and f7eleven's Mono-White Bomberman Discord.)

I still remain a big fan of running a blue splash because Teferi-TR and Intuition both remained crucial, and including pre-event games I never found myself wishing they were extra ballistae or the 4th Scion of Urza. Mana still felt as reliable as ever, although I will concede that the splash does make Damping Sphere much more frightening, I just never see it and don't expect to. Running the Signet also makes me feel better in the face of Back to Basics / Bloodmoon, although I ran through X-hundred goldfish hands in paper over the past few weeks and while the Skycloud Expanses never locked my mana there was one hand in which it "turned off" Cavern of Souls. It only happened the once and I certainly feel more insulated from counterspells with Teferi than without, but I think the potential for the card to do that has to be acknowledged.

Other Thoughts:

1) Mycosynth Lattice turning off Ichorid is amusing. Not the most useful given its marginal value in any matchup where that may come up, but it's a thing and it was amusing.

2) If various Karn decks become more popular, is there a chance we start seeing Act of Authority as an answer to the Mycosynth Lock?

3) I saw Caleb's 5-0 list. While very cute, I'm not a fan of the Goblin Cannon. I appreciate that Lodestone Bauble might not be a card online, but obviously that's a better card in that slot. Even if you're playing a non-optimal list due to MTGO limitations, I suspect there's a better non-Ballista spout than Goblin Cannon.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Super Succinct Event Report / Footage:
2) If various Karn decks become more popular, is there a chance we start seeing Act of Authority as an answer to the Mycosynth Lock?

It's not really an answer though, as New Karn can wish from Exile too. (And when they first wish for Crypt they can get from the graveyard too.)
I think the "best" would be to float mana, wait for it to resolve, and cast something that answers multiple artifacts at instant speed, so you can blow up as much of their board as you can (now that it's all part artifact).

[Rationalist]

It's not really an answer though, as New Karn can wish from Exile too.

You're right. Man, that's a heck of a seemingly extra clause to throw on the card.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

You're right. Man, that's a heck of a seemingly extra clause to throw on the card.

It only took them 10 years to retemplate a wish's text.

[H]

You're right. Man, that's a heck of a seemingly extra clause to throw on the card.

It also means that one could "endlessly" get and use Relic Of Progenitus for example.

Likely too slow for Legacy though, but the effect definitely is something to keep in mind.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

It also means that one could "endlessly" get and use Relic Of Progenitus for example.

Likely too slow for Legacy though, but the effect definitely is something to keep in mind.

If you can do that many wishes, just get a removal for the opposing karn and slam the lattice. (I mean, why else didn't you slam the lattice already?)

[H]

If you can do that many wishes, just get a removal for the opposing karn and slam the lattice. (I mean, why else didn't you slam the lattice already?)

I'm more talking about if you were against something like Dredge, where them casting spells is not really important but their graveyard contents are.

Also, it could be the case that they just answered your Lattice. My comment was not intended to be an idea in lieu of playing Lattice, just pointing out a possible interaction that plausibly be relevant in some cases, and/or potential future design space cases.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I'm more talking about if you were against something like Dredge, where them casting spells is not really important but their graveyard contents are.

Also, it could be the case that they just answered your Lattice. My comment was not intended to be an idea in lieu of playing Lattice, just pointing out a possible interaction that plausibly be relevant in some cases, and/or potential future design space cases.

Fair enough.

[ESG]

So I went 4-0 8-0 in the Cardkingdom event last night with the list in the post above.

Nice! Congrats. You have the Midas touch with this deck. I was pretty seriously considering going in on Bomberman a few months ago, but in testing I couldn't get the matchups against Chalice decks to be favorable. How often do you run into a Chalice deck at the weeklies? And if you've been to some of the recent 1Ks, did you face more/fewer Chalice decks there?

[spartan117]

Looking forward to getting to run New Karn in paper for the first time.

For tonight, I think I'm going to go with a main-60 along the lines of

Creatures (8)

4x Auriok Salvagers
3x Monastery Mentor
1x Walking Ballista

Walkers (9)

3x Karn, The Great Creator
3x Karn, Scion of Urza
3x Teferi, Time Raveler

Artifacts (22)

3x Lion's Eye Diamond
7x Baubles
3x Mox Opal
1x Azorius Signet
4x Lotus Petal
4x Chalice of the Void

Spells (2)

2x Intuition

Lands (19)

4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Cavern of Souls
4x Skycloud Expanse
2x Ancient Den
1x Plains

In a deck with so many "I win's", I can't resist another "must force" that also cantrips and interacts. Skycloud Expanse really does not seem like a problem in a deck with this many mana-sources and that so rarely casts anything below 0 < CMC < 3.

List looks sweet, 'gratz on the result!
Care to share your sideboard aswell? Planning some changes after this first run?

[Rationalist]

Nice! Congrats. You have the Midas touch with this deck. I was pretty seriously considering going in on Bomberman a few months ago, but in testing I couldn't get the matchups against Chalice decks to be favorable. How often do you run into a Chalice deck at the weeklies? And if you've been to some of the recent 1Ks, did you face more/fewer Chalice decks there?

Hello ESG.

I've run into fewer Chalice decks since WAR than I rightly should have, but in outside testing Chalice itself has not been a huge problem with 3x Karn and 3x Teferi, both which serve as main deck answers, plus the Intuitions to find either. 12-Post though remains a pretty solidly bad matchup. Moon Stompy isn't wonderful, but so far it feels nowhere near as bad as it used to, again thanks to the interaction.

I have not been to any of the 1ks in quite a while, but they have me scheduled to teach a Monday-Night/Wednesday-Night evening astronomy course this fall so I feel like I'll inevitably have to start going to them again if I want to play much Legacy during that 3 month stretch.

Most Recent Showing:

Anyways, last night was a pretty mediocre 2-2 showing. 2-0'd two of the matches pretty quickly, but got turn-2 combo'd out of the game twice in a row vs Depths while being a turn too slow in game 2, and kept mediocre 6's against Grixis Control and flooded. A lot of those losses felt like 'variance out of my control', but I did identify two potential shortcomings in the construction that may have contributed, particularly board v. depths which is a good segway into ...


List looks sweet, 'gratz on the result!
Care to share your sideboard aswell? Planning some changes after this first run?

So two changes; one definite sideboard change and one potential maindeck change.

After some consideration, I believe my current sideboard should look something along the lines of:

2x Tormod's Crypt
1x Lion's Eye Diamond
1x Mycosynth Lattice
1x Walking Ballista
1x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Sorcerer's Spyglass
1x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Containment Priest
1x Sanctum Prelate
2x Oblivion Ring
1x Negate
1x Perilous Voyage < ----- This would be the new element

The wish-board leaves the sideboard fairly weak to Depths, so the Perilous Voyage is an attempt to include a multi-purpose piece of interaction that has play in this matchup, and the Scry 2 seems to feel fairly potent in a deck of this nature.

The other change I've been considering is switching out one Teferi for an Intuition, which is a fairly big deal so I want to give it some thought.

Here's the thought process:

The deck is a pile of Haymakers that synergize well but represent fairly different plans. The natural problem with Bomberman is often that the deck is filled with too much air, which has long been my incentive to try to reduce the Ballista and Bauble count to a minimum (yes, I realize that Ballista isn't 'air' in the same way baubles are, but its still doesn't represent the kind of threat as the others on its own merit). Intuition to just "pick a haymaker" has been great at simply increasing the effective threat density, especially when it can also grab a Teferi and, say, bounce a Trinisphere if it really comes to something like that. Having 3x Teferi just makes Intuition an even better card.

The issue is, however, that Intuition is already a better card than Teferi in most matchups, so is it worth making Intuition a weaker card to play with one more copy of it? I think at the very least I want to play around with 3x Intuition, 2x Teferi, just to inch up the threat density one notch higher. I mean, I'd take out another Bauble but I want to keep the Mox Opal Metalcraft count up.

If I make that change (3x Intuition 2x Teferi), I'd also want to run a quick hyper-geometric calc on the manabase to make sure I'm not supposed to turn one of the Ancient Dens into a Seat of the Synod. I don't think I'm supposed to in that scenario, but I can't do math like that at any reasonable speed in my head, and I think the simplified version of the calc I'd want to know is

Looking at #1-hand out of #2-library what is the chance

A) (1+) of [3] <representing Intuition> WITHOUT (1+) of [12] <representing 'no blue source'>

vs

B) (1+) of [7] <representing Auriok / Mentor> WITHOUT (1+) of [18] <representing 'no human white source', with the other 2 mono-colored lands remaining mono-white>

Naively, I'd assume if B > A for the most relevant range of #1-hand and #2-library, the manabase is fine as is, if A > B for a relevant range of those numbers, I'd want to consider 1x Seat of the Synod.

[crobee]

hi
I can't use English, so this is machine translation.

In my community, many players use 4C Bomberman with Intuition.
my current list:
3 Walking Ballista
3 Auriok Salvagers
1 Sharuum the Hegemon
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sundering Titan

4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Intuition
2 Unburial Rites
2 Cast Out
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Mox Opal
1 Lodestone Bauble
1 Talisman of Progress
1 Talisman of Dominance
1 Teferi, Time Raveler
3 Karn, the Great Creator

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Spire of Industry
3 Glimmervoid
3 Seat of the Synod
2 Cavern of Souls
2 City of Traitors
1 Ancient Den
1 Inventors' Fair
1 Vault of Whispers

Sideboard
1 Walking Ballista
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Rest in Peace
1 Seal of Cleansing
2 The Antiquities War
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Teferi, Time Raveler

I have 2 Unburial Rites in addition to the combo.
Sharuum has synergy with LED and Sundering Titan is effective for most legacy decks (especially Miracle!).
Also, sometimes I want to bring 2 Unburial Rites by Intuition.

Karn, the Great Creator:
The deck was reinforced by Karn, the Great Creator.
Mycosynth Lattice is a good example of this.
You can cast this by activating two LEDs.(If they don't counter Karn, they don't have a counter.)
If opponent control creature to beat Karn, we can cast Karn and Ensnaring Bridge with LED in the same turn.
After the sideboarding, LEDs are often placed in the exile by Surgical Extraction.
but it can be added to the hand by Karn.

Teferi, Time Raveler
This card is more useful than it looks.
Opponent cannot cast in miracles or cascades.
If these are not in your area, replace here with Karn or other card.

Cast Out:
WAR is not all that you get.
Karn, the Great Creator played by opponent is a very threat.
Unfortunately, this was the only card I could find that could handle a turn for a Karn.
It is effective for Show and Tell that I dont like.
If you want to use a different card for the same purpose, I recommend Goblin Cratermaker.

RIP:
Many people would question this.
If I use this, throw away the graveyard plan.
Because only Walking Ballista can win against the opponent who has to insert this card.

Abrupt Decay:
It's the only green, but without it I can't win Miracle.
BtB can't be destroy without this.

There's more I want to write, but it's going to be longer, so I'll finish here.
Using Intuition seems difficult, but it's not.
This card is easy to use because it has all the necessary parts for the combo.
This Bomberman is also fun, so please try it.

gl hf

[ChemicalBurns]

hi
I can't use English, so this is machine translation.

In my community, many players use 4C Bomberman with Intuition.
my current list:
3 Walking Ballista
3 Auriok Salvagers
1 Sharuum the Hegemon
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sundering Titan

4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Intuition
2 Unburial Rites
2 Cast Out
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Mox Opal
1 Lodestone Bauble
1 Talisman of Progress
1 Talisman of Dominance
1 Teferi, Time Raveler
3 Karn, the Great Creator

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Spire of Industry
3 Glimmervoid
3 Seat of the Synod
2 Cavern of Souls
2 City of Traitors
1 Ancient Den
1 Inventors' Fair
1 Vault of Whispers

Sideboard
1 Walking Ballista
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Rest in Peace
1 Seal of Cleansing
2 The Antiquities War
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Teferi, Time Raveler

I have 2 Unburial Rites in addition to the combo.
Sharuum has synergy with LED and Sundering Titan is effective for most legacy decks (especially Miracle!).
Also, sometimes I want to bring 2 Unburial Rites by Intuition.

Karn, the Great Creator:
The deck was reinforced by Karn, the Great Creator.
Mycosynth Lattice is a good example of this.
You can cast this by activating two LEDs.(If they don't counter Karn, they don't have a counter.)
If opponent control creature to beat Karn, we can cast Karn and Ensnaring Bridge with LED in the same turn.
After the sideboarding, LEDs are often placed in the exile by Surgical Extraction.
but it can be added to the hand by Karn.

Teferi, Time Raveler
This card is more useful than it looks.
Opponent cannot cast in miracles or cascades.
If these are not in your area, replace here with Karn or other card.

Cast Out:
WAR is not all that you get.
Karn, the Great Creator played by opponent is a very threat.
Unfortunately, this was the only card I could find that could handle a turn for a Karn.
It is effective for Show and Tell that I dont like.
If you want to use a different card for the same purpose, I recommend Goblin Cratermaker.

RIP:
Many people would question this.
If I use this, throw away the graveyard plan.
Because only Walking Ballista can win against the opponent who has to insert this card.

Abrupt Decay:
It's the only green, but without it I can't win Miracle.
BtB can't be destroy without this.

There's more I want to write, but it's going to be longer, so I'll finish here.
Using Intuition seems difficult, but it's not.
This card is easy to use because it has all the necessary parts for the combo.
This Bomberman is also fun, so please try it.

gl hf

^This

The Japanese crew working on Bomberman are incredibly impressive in that they've freed themselves from what see as sacred cows - Mentor and the Bauble package. Once you cut Mentor, there's little need for the Baubles and you can focus on alternate ways of assembling the combo (ie. Intuition + Unburial Rites). Makes us a fair bit more graveyard dependant, but it's certainly a very exciting way to take the deck.

The mana base is also crazy, but I've seen it look very fluid in reality and actually capitalises on the power of Glimmervoid/Spire of Industry in ways that Legacy hasn't typically seen.

List looks crazy, but I trust a lot of their decisions and there's a lot of smart, experienced Bomberman players working on this Intuition-based list.

(Also if you have LINE I can invite you to the secret Japanese Bomberman group hehe)

[mistercakes]

thanks for sharing!

[Rationalist]

Yes, thank you very much for sharing crobee. I'm thrilled to see more people playing around Intuition in Bomberman builds, and to reply to what ChemicalBurns said, Japan probably deserves most of the credit for contemporary legacy Bomberman if we're interested in doling out credit. The whole reason we're here is because we decided to toy around with a Hareruya list that was popularized by Caleb D.

One question about the list you shared though; what exactly does Talisman of Progress cast that Azorius Signet wouldn't? It cycles your 2x cast-out better if you don't also have a spell to cast, casts your 1x teferi worse, and you seem to be taking extra damage for this. In an incredibly narrow case where you cast your 1x sideboard ethersworn canonist on exactly two lands the other of which is one of of your 2x cavern of souls it casts it slightly better because it retains the uncounterability clause, but the three things I've outlined here seem to be the only apparent differences between what Talisman of Progress is doing for you, which doesn't feel like it's worth the damage.

Just an immediate point of feedback / inquiry about optimizing the manabase of the list you shared. If you could share a justification for Talisman > Signet I'd be happy to hear it, as someone who is working on an Intuition Bomberman list with Signet currently any aspect I'm missing could be ... relevant education for me.



Teferi, Time Raveler
This card is more useful than it looks.

I'm definitely with you there.

[Rationalist]

Huh; so I believe I may have been wrong on an assumption earlier about Seat of Synod / Ancient Den.

If I move to 3 Mono-Blue cards and 7 Mono-White, with 19 colored sources, I think the 19th colored source wants to be blue.

Simplified Hyper-geometric calculation

Here were my assumptions

58 Card Pool; 6 in hand.

Calculations are Probability N > 0 in 6 for the first criteria and N = 0 in the remaining 5.

Looking at the 19th colored source with 18 other white sources for creatures and 12 other blue sources for non-creatures

[Human but no other white source](1 of 7) 0.555051249 x (NOT 1 of 18) (0.143603523) = 0.0797073148
[Intuition but no other blue source](1 of 3) 0.283769769 x (NOT 1 of 12) (0.299153055) = =0.08489059331 [SLIGHTY MORE LIKELY]

So it would seem that if the 19th colored source is in hand, it is slightly more likely that it needs to bear the burden of producing blue for a 3x Intuition than a 7x Creature.

However, this is close enough that it really is just one Ancient Den. Shifting the colored sources by 1 results in

[Human but no other white source](1 of 7) 0.555051249 x (NOT 1 of 17) (0.163548457) = 0.09077777533 [SLIGHTY MORE LIKELY]
[Intuition but no other blue source](1 of 3) 0.283769769 x (NOT 1 of 13) (0.266636419) =0.07566335503

Which means, based on previous notes, I think I'm going to be testing

Creatures (8)

4x Auriok Salvagers
3x Monastery Mentor
1x Walking Ballista

Walkers (8)

3x Karn, The Great Creator
3x Karn, Scion of Urza
2x Teferi, Time Raveler

Artifacts (22)

3x Lion's Eye Diamond
3x Mox Opal
1x Azorius Signet
4x Lotus Petal
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Urza's Bauble
2x Mishra's Bauble
1x Lodestone Bauble

Spells (2)

3x Intuition

Lands (19)

4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Cavern of Souls
4x Skycloud Expanse
1x Synod Sanctum
1x Ancient Den
1x Plains

Sideboard (15)

2x Tormod's Crypt
1x Lion's Eye Diamond
1x Mycosynth Lattice
1x Walking Ballista
1x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Sorcerer's Spyglass
1x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Containment Priest
1x Sanctum Prelate
2x Oblivion Ring
1x Negate
1x Perilous Voyage

For the time being I'm still going to refer to this as "Intuition Bomberman" as a shorthand since UW as a color combination already has some history in this thread, but if crobee's Japanese Esper all-in graveyard combo list without Mentor or Scion of Urza become popular I think that title might be contested.

Sideboard still probably needs a good amount of work, so any critiques of the board would be welcome.

[crobee]

Yes, thank you very much for sharing crobee. I'm thrilled to see more people playing around Intuition in Bomberman builds, and to reply to what ChemicalBurns said, Japan probably deserves most of the credit for contemporary legacy Bomberman if we're interested in doling out credit. The whole reason we're here is because we decided to toy around with a Hareruya list that was popularized by Caleb D.

One question about the list you shared though; what exactly does Talisman of Progress cast that Azorius Signet wouldn't? It cycles your 2x cast-out better if you don't also have a spell to cast, casts your 1x teferi worse, and you seem to be taking extra damage for this. In an incredibly narrow case where you cast your 1x sideboard ethersworn canonist on exactly two lands the other of which is one of of your 2x cavern of souls it casts it slightly better because it retains the uncounterability clause, but the three things I've outlined here seem to be the only apparent differences between what Talisman of Progress is doing for you, which doesn't feel like it's worth the damage.

Just an immediate point of feedback / inquiry about optimizing the manabase of the list you shared. If you could share a justification for Talisman > Signet I'd be happy to hear it, as someone who is working on an Intuition Bomberman list with Signet currently any aspect I'm missing could be ... relevant education for me.



I'm definitely with you there.

The use of Tarisman or Signet is often discussed.
In my case, I use Talisman when I use Lodestone Bauble.
Because it can be activated if Tomb (or Traitors) is destroyed on the 2 turn. (This is also narrow case,)
But if I use Teferi, it's better to use UW Signet as you say.

thx Rationalist

[Rationalist]

Not a problem, crobee =)

Anyways, so I played another feature match this Monday. I thought these were some pretty good games.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/427671166?t=03h00m20s


Current List:

4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Cavern of Souls
4x Skycloud Expanse
2x Ancient Den
1x Seat of the Synod

4x Lotus Petal
3x Mox Diamond
1x Azorius Signet
3x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Urza's Bauble
3x Mishra's Bauble

4x Auriok Salvagers
3x Monastery Mentor
1x Walking Ballista

3x Karn, Scion of Urza
3x Karn, The Great Creator
2x Teferi, Time Raveler

3x Intuition

-Sideboard-

1x Mycosynth Lattice
1x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Sorcerer's Spyglass
1x Lion's Eye Diamond
1x Lodestone Bauble
2x Tormod's Crypt
1x In The Eye of Chaos
2x Containment Priest
2x Seal of Cleansing
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Perilous Voyage

The only individual games I lost on Monday were to Jeremy Edwards on Eldrazi. Trinisphere + Quick Clock.

I will edit in some comments in a little bit, but I promised someone on reddit I'd make this post last night so I just want to get the key portion of it up there, and I don't want to hog two-posts.

[Avez]

Bomberman seems to be on the rise! What people think about the Ranger-Captain of Eos from Modern Horizon, could it see play in our deck? Also spotted a great Unofficial-strategy-guide by: Max Gilmore (https://www.minmaxblog.com/magic/2019/5/21/bomberman-unofficial-strategy-guide) from reddit.

[Rationalist]

What people think about the Ranger-Captain of Eos from Modern Horizon, could it see play in our deck?

I think if you're on a classic Mono-White list but want some protection that can also double as disruption in a combo race, he's a fine candidate. You have to commit to when you use him which is more of a drawback than it appears when it comes to protecting things like Planeswalkers, but his cost is minimal. This came up on reddit a couple days ago. I think one of the real things to keep in mind about him though is his ability to be on the other side of the table, given the resources you often have to commit to begin to combo. I think if he becomes prominent it might be more incentive to run alternative threat out of the board.

Another topic from reddit of that same day; there was some disagreement about what the optimal monk token is. For my money, I believe the optimal monk token is the Aaron Miller 'Bodhi' Monk token, which I will justify as an Ainok from Tarkir. (Your mileage may vary)

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0790/8591/products/bodhi-drawing3_305x.jpg?v=1556658662

Particularly in the face of Plague Carrier potentially becoming a thing, making it immediately obvious that the tokens are not human I think could avoid a potentially unfortunate situation in organized play.

[Rationalist]

https://i.redd.it/wthw2q4y6r031.jpg

Cards like this do not make me feel happy about my choice of Artifact Lands.

They do however make me happier with Teferi, as I doubt this would be in a list with Aether Vial as well. The Maverick matchup just got harder though.

[schweinefettmann]

if that ouphe lands, is there no way to deal with it? it blanks ballistas, but not teferi. But it's a bit tight having to rely on a card that we're not likely to mise and isn't tutor-able.

is it worth running something like a pyroclasm just to deal with stuff like this? or unexpectedly absent? swords?

I've been thinking about building bomber man, but seeing all these main-deckable hate cards being printed, i'm a bit wary.

[mistercakes]

https://i.redd.it/wthw2q4y6r031.jpg

Cards like this do not make me feel happy about my choice of Artifact Lands.

They do however make me happier with Teferi, as I doubt this would be in a list with Aether Vial as well. The Maverick matchup just got harder though.

however cards like this should help prevent people crying about bans :)

[Rationalist]

if that ouphe lands, is there no way to deal with it? it blanks ballistas, but not teferi. But it's a bit tight having to rely on a card that we're not likely to mise and isn't tutor-able.

is it worth running something like a pyroclasm just to deal with stuff like this? or unexpectedly absent? swords?

I've been thinking about building bomber man, but seeing all these main-deckable hate cards being printed, i'm a bit wary.

Yes, after Modern Horizons hits you definitely want to be running something to deal with things like this. It's likely coming in exclusively in matchups that creature removal is good in and in which Chalice is mediocre, probably just post-board, so it doesn't seem overly hard to adapt to.

Part of playing any deck in the Synergy to Combo range is coming to terms with the fact that hate exists; in Legacy that happens to also be true of playing 1-cost spells, playing islands, and using non-basic lands. Also I don't know how main-deckable he is as a card that is often actual Grizzly Bear.

[angelbaka]

if that ouphe lands, is there no way to deal with it? it blanks ballistas, but not teferi. But it's a bit tight having to rely on a card that we're not likely to mise and isn't tutor-able.

is it worth running something like a pyroclasm just to deal with stuff like this? or unexpectedly absent? swords?

I've been thinking about building bomber man, but seeing all these main-deckable hate cards being printed, i'm a bit wary.

One of the advantages of running cast out over disenchanted etc is that it kills annoying crap like this.

It's annoying mostly in that it gives GSZ decks an effective toolbox card against us; elves, maverick and 4c loam are the only real gsz decks I know of right now (sorry to the ten of you on sylvan plug); of those, I think maverick is the only one we really care about, since elves is hugely favorable and 4c loam is both a punishing fire AND a chance deck (bleagch). Maverick is also the only one that would feasibly main deck it; elves can't stomach the synergy loss main and 4c plays Diamonds. All that said, I think we just don't really care; everyone already had access to this effect at this cmc (null rod) and the creature type isn't relevant, so the only thing this adds is access through GSZ.

I've gotten to get some testing in with both KGC and the intuition package. Karn's fucking bonkers, I have no idea why play design thought that was an ok thing to print. I can't imagine why anyone on any variant of Bomberman isn't playing at least three. Intuition is powerful, flexible and fun, especially with a fun-of unburial rites, and was everything I've ever wanted from any of the creature tutors and more - except not cavern-able. Fortunately, people have the whole lotus-petal mentality going on with it and tend to not counter thinking they'll counter the tutor target even when you have cavern out, so that's cool. Both make LEDs suck much less outside the combo, which is also cool.

[p01ng]

Just posted this over on reddit, but will also post here for posterity:

CFB 3k Tourney Report - 15th with Mono W Bomberman

Hey all,

It's been a hot minute since I've written a tournament report (or even done well enough in a large field to write something), so hopefully I can do a decent enough job. This is all from memory, I didn't take any notes because I didn't expect to go too far.

Event: CFB 3k on June 2, 2019
Total players: 90+ (I forget the exact number), enough to make it a ~3.9k

I had myself 95% convinced to take a version of Eldrazi Post I have been tinkering with, and I only settled on a list around 11 pm the night before. But once I got to the venue some of the other CFB locals convinced me otherwise. I ended up playing 74 of 75 of Max Gilmore's (u/Maxtortion) of Mono W Bomberman posted on the mixmaxblog. I thought about running 3 Dens and 2 Plains, but ultimately decided I'd just hope to dodge opposing Null Rod effects. The only change I made was a second Bridge in the board over Spyglass. The last time I played this deck was right after the printing of Karn, Scion of Urza, so all I had to go off of was some goldfishing I'd done with MTGForge.
I set a goal for myself before starting—get at least one kill of each way with the deck today, that being:

- Mentor beatdown
- Salvagers + Mentor
- Salvagers + Ballista
- Karn + Lattice
- Karnstruct beatdown

(sad this version doesn't play Lodestone Bauble ;) )

Anyway, let's dive into the games.

R1 v. Aaron on 4c Loam

G1: On the Draw.
I keep a 7 with T1 Chalice and T2 Mentor. He plays some fetch and passes, I drop Chalice and next turn he drops Bob. Instead of making Mentor I opt to Ballista for 1 and kill the Bob. He follows up with second Bob. I drop Mentor and spew two tokens. He offers a trade with an attack from Bob, which I decline and then drops second Bob and Wastelands my Sol-Land. I play a Bauble and swing with the team, no blocks. His Bobs keep revealing more lands, including Wasteland. He's at 9 so one spell is lethal if he attacks so he opts to pass and just Wastes my last land. I don't draw second spell (I think a land), but I have lethal over this turn and next if I drop a Chalice for 0 and he either double blocks Mentor or blocks two tokens + removal/creature.

G2: On the Draw. I bring in two Disenchants.
I think I keep a 7 with a few lands/cheerios plus the full combo. He opens with Land + Mox Diamond into Bob. I play land + cheerio and pass. He Wastelands my land, attacks, and I crack the Bauble. The next few turns play out the same with him drawing (I cannot remember if he Loamed this game?) three wastelands and beating down with two Bobs. He gets me to 4 (I was DOB), has Mox + Scrubland and opts to cast Scooze, I proceed to cast a Petal, go to two off the Tomb, and combo off with extra mana to fight through Surgical. One of his Bobs revealed a PFire earlier, so I think a combination of nerves, not paying attention to my life total, and not really knowing what my deck did made me get off lucky.

Result: 1-0 (I'm a Phantom Tiger) (2-0 in games)

Kill list:
- ☑️ Mentor beatdown
- Salvagers + Mentor
- ☑️ Salvagers + Ballista
- Karn + Lattice
- Karnstruct beatdown

R2 v. Joaquin on Pox
Joaquin was super friendly and apologized in advance saying that he's just coming back into the game. I knew he was on Pox because I happen to watch part of his R1 game.

G1: On the Draw
I keep a 7 with Salvagers, double KGC, Pants Karn, lands and Bauble. He opens with IoK and takes a Bauble. I drop land and Bauble, and proceed to get Hymned (it takes land + Pants Karn). The game gets to a state where he's hellbent with Cursed Scroll and The Rack in play. I drop KGC and wish for something (I don't quite remember, I have mana for Lattice next turn so I didn't want it to get stripped). He plays something into a Chalice I'd dropped a few turns prior, then I lock him out. He continues for a few turns before he realizes that he can't do anything and is going to die to Animated Lattice beatdowns.

G2: On the Draw. I think I bring in some combo of Disenchants/Cast Out.
I keep a hand with Mentor, baubles, Chalice, and some lands. I don't remember the sequence of this game, but he may have dropped Cursed Scroll or the Rack T1. I drop Mentor and spew some tokens. He drops his second land, but I don't remember his game action, since he got stuck on two lands and died to a Chalice on 2 and an a Monk army.

Result: 2-0 (I'm a Zombie Mob) (4-0 in games)

Kill list:
- ☑️ Mentor beatdown
- Salvagers + Mentor
- ☑️ Salvagers + Ballista
- ☑️ Karn + Lattice
- Karnstruct beatdown

R3 v. The Storm Man Himself, Cyrus Corman-Gill
I've never played Cyrus before, but have made brief small talk with him at these before the player's meeting. I will say he was the most polite opponent I played today, and was very pleasant to chat to about MtG and other stuff before and after the match.

G1: On the Play
I mull to 6 and get a hand with some combo of Salvagers, Baubles, Sol Lands, and something else. I scry KGC to the top. Sol land, baubles, and pass. He plays Trop and Ponders. I crack the baubles to get some cards and proceed to make T2 Karn, wish for Tormod's Crypt and pass. He Brainstorms into three lotus petals and concedes.

G2: On the Draw.
Per Matt's suggestion in his SB guide, I bring in Ballista and Crypt, take out two Pants Karn. Full disclosure: I lucksacked this game. I mull 7 and 6s that just hand lands/babules/Salvagers get a 5 with double Chalice, Mentor, Salvagers, and Lotus Petal. I risk it and get a 4 with Double Karakas, Mentor, and Salvagers. He proceeds to drop Bayou, Petal, three LEDs, use Petal to Ponder, cracking LEDs to make BRU, discarding Cabal Ritual. He wiffs. I'm able to make T2 Mentor, which takes me all the way.

Result: 3-0 (I'm a Branchsnap Lorian with E.Plague naming Beast) (6-0 in games)

R4 v. Max C. on Storm (ANT ft. Burning Wish)
I know Max plays some Storm variant because he plays locally. I asked after the match about his build and he said it was "hybrid-ish".

G1: On the Draw.
I keep a one lander with two baubles, Chalice, Mentor, Karn, and something else. He has a slow hand and I stick a Chalice, but by the time I find mana to make Mentor three turns later I am dead.

G2: On the Play.
Sideboarded the same was as the previous round. But I don't remember this game at all. I think I mulled to 5 or 6 and died T2.

Result: (3-1) (I'm a Kjeldoran Dead) (6-2 in games)

R5 v. David on Stoneblade

G1: On the Play
I keep a 7 with Salvagers, KGC, some other goodies, and the means to cast them all. I play Cavern and name Human which gets me a confused look. He Island -> Ponders. I play Karn which resolves and fetch Ballista. He taps out for SFM, I proceed to make an uncounterable Salvagers and kill him.

G2: On the Draw
I side out two petals and an Opal, bring in Disenchants and Cast Out. I keep a one lander with baubles, and a fistful of business (Mentor/Chalice/Karn). I draw my second land too late, and run a Disenchant into a Force I new was there trying to kill a lethal Batterskull + Jitte.

G3: On the Play
Reverse of G2. He gets stuck on one land after pondering two (three?) times and I Lattice lock him T3/4.

Result: 4-1 (I'm a Kami of Lunacy) (8-3 in games)

At this point, I'm in 12th(?) and doing way better than I expected, possibly live for Top 8 if I win this next round. I kind of just would like to dodge another Karn deck...

R6 v. Michael M. on Planeswalker Post
Well, I had seen Michael playing earlier. I had to jinx myself. We both had a good laugh about how we didn't expect to be doing so well.

G1: On the Draw.
This is a game where I lost literally because of the die roll. I keep a T2 KGC into T3 Salvagers kill. He T1 goes Tomb -> Monolith, T2 Baby Ugin which keeps me off being able to wish for both Ballista and LED. T3 he drops his own KGC and I can't get out from under the Spirit army.

G2: On the Play.
Side out 4 Chalices for Disenchants, Swords, and Cast out. I mull to 5 with Sol-Lands and Baubles. I play land, baubles, and Lotus petal and pass the turn. He proceeds to go Tomb -> Monolith -> Key -> Dynamo -> Chalice on 0. I draw a bauble and Salvagers, make Salvagers, and proceed to die to Big Ugin. KGC would have shut him out of that game.

Not going to lie, losing like that made me a tad tilted, but it was no fault of mine or my opponent's, just the opposite end of variance I experienced in round 3. I wished him luck as I would have liked to see a fellow Post player in the Top 8.

Result: 4-2 (I'm a Soldevi Steam Beast) (8-5 in games)

R7 v. Victorious C. on Elves!
Victorious plays locally, and he loves his Elves, so I know what he's on. We're both playing for Top 16 at this point.

G1: I think I was on the draw.
I keep a 7 that's light on lands, but has Chalice and some other Mentor and Salvagers business. He makes T1 Symbiote and I Chalice. I eventually make Mentor and Salvagers off some combination of two lands, a City of Traitors that went to the yard, and Lotus Petal. In the meanwhile he's been bouncing Visionaries drawing a million cards, but he could never find any business. I re-buy the Petal one turn, and next turn rip a Mox Opal to cast KGC and make a Graham's number of monks.

G2: On the Draw.
I bring in two Containment Priests, debated on a Bridge but elected not too. I think I just need to be faster in this MU. I keep a 5 or 6 with T2 Mentor and a mess of cheerios. The game gets to a point where he has three creatures and I peeked a Natural Order via Bauble. I make a second Mentor and have 6 or 7 tokens and pass hoping he doesn't have much more to kill me. He kills me and kills me good.
G3: On the Play.
I keep a 6 with Pants Karn, Salvagers, double Chalice, and lands. I play T1 Chalice and he plays a Cavern to force through a Llanowar Elf. I play a backup Chalice, he plays another 1 mana elf and passes. I play Karn and go to the tank until ultimately deciding to make a token. Either EOT here or the next turn he Ass Trophies one of my Chalices, but I just re-buy and remake with the Salvagers. He can't draw anything else to deal with both Chalices and dies to Karnstruct and Salvager beatdowns.

Result: 5-2 (I'm a Fickle Efreet) (10-6 in games)

Final Kill List:
- ☑️ Mentor beatdown
- ☑️ Salvagers + Mentor
- ☑️ Salvagers + Ballista
- ☑️ Karn + Lattice
- ☑️ Karnstruct beatdown

5-2 is good enough for 15th and double my buy in, plus I hit my personal goal of killing with every way possible. All in all a good day. Deck felt great, especially with the new Karn, but I think I need to learn how to evaluate 1-landers better... :# I did dodge the plethora of D&T that was in the room today, probably for the better since I've played that MU exactly zero times.

Hope you all enjoyed my writeup, let me know if you have any questions!

[Adibou1er]

A friend of mine reached the Top 4 with Bomby at MKM series Paris (+200 players) while I dropped at 4-4 :(
The deck went perfectly fine for him and he played it as well.

As far I’m concerned I faced :
Moon stompy :0-2
UW Blade : 1-2 (no luck with mulligans)
Infect : 2-1
Infect : 2-1
Moon stompy : 0-2 (so much fun)
Burn : 2-1
Infect : 2-1 (wtf...)
Elves : 0-2

I won the toss only once or twice in the end of the day.

[angelbaka]

Yeah, moon stompy is a pretty sorry matchup, even on the mono-white plan; the fact that it's so bad regardless is one of the reasons I'm partial to the rainbow build.

You seem surprised that you beat infect? My experience had been that the matchup is decent at worst.

How was elves? I normally feel favored there, so I'm surprised to see you 0-2'd.

London mull is officially coming to legacy. How'd you guys find it did here? Boon or burden? I'm looking forward to it, but I didn't get to do any real testing with it when it was out on mtgo.

[Adibou1er]

I’m not surprised that I’ve beaten Infect : it cannot really compete with Ballista and Chalice is hard for it too.
Also I’m a regular player of Infect myself.
I’m just surprised to have faced 3 infect (and 2 Moon stompy) out of 8 rounds.
Note that an Infect player lost the finals vs Slow Depths.
The metagame breakdown gave us : 5 infect, 5 moonstompy... :)

I’ve lost to Elves because the guy fetched for Reclamation Sage to get rid of Chalice then comboed off with Glimpse G1. I had a good start with T1 mentor + 2 tokens but I only could smash lands 2 turns in a row...
G2 he was pretty locked by Chalice and C-Priest but he managed to hardcast Hoof for 16 damage...

I think both the deck and the pairings have not been very kind to me yesterday..

[mulder]

Just took this deck to a local FNM and my god what a pile of crap... . I went 1-3 with the only matches I won was because my opponent mulled to 5. I lost against storm, punishing thieves and miracles with literally 0 percent chance of even winning a game... . This deck has no carddraw, no cardfiltering, no removal and only chalice as disruption which is not that strong a card anymore in today's meta. You lose against every deck that plays discard, removal or counters and have to play with only half a sb. I fail to see how this deck can win a match against literally any tier 1 or 2 deck 🤔.

[Manroe]

Just took this deck to a local FNM and my god what a pile of crap... . I went 1-3 with the only matches I won was because my opponent mulled to 5. I lost against storm, punishing thieves and miracles with literally 0 percent chance of even winning a game... . This deck has no carddraw, no cardfiltering, no removal and only chalice as disruption which is not that strong a card anymore in today's meta. You lose against every deck that plays discard, removal or counters and have to play with only half a sb. I fail to see how this deck can win a match against literally any tier 1 or 2 deck 🤔.

Not sure if trolling, but I'm sorry you had a bad experience with it. Shouldn't let one bad experience decide for you whether or not the deck is a "pile of crap". Plenty of people here, in the discord and online have recognized the power level that is here. I've had no issues against anything tier in my personal experience.

[Sg Schultz]

Has anyone tried Echo of Eons in a UW Build? I've been playing WB in paper whenever I'm back in Boston at my weeklies and Bobs have been treating me well against most decks. Being able to loop a couple EoEs with Mentor or Salvagers out sounds like a blast; my worry obviously is refilling my opponents hands or fizzling. I also like the added "Mulligan" power that it could bring to the table, especially with London Mull coming to Legacy.

[StefN]

Just took this deck to a local FNM and my god what a pile of crap... . I went 1-3 with the only matches I won was because my opponent mulled to 5. I lost against storm, punishing thieves and miracles with literally 0 percent chance of even winning a game... . This deck has no carddraw, no cardfiltering, no removal and only chalice as disruption which is not that strong a card anymore in today's meta. You lose against every deck that plays discard, removal or counters and have to play with only half a sb. I fail to see how this deck can win a match against literally any tier 1 or 2 deck 🤔.

Maybe you did a few things wrong. I honestly have to say that I felt in love with this deck today ;). Received the last missing cards a few days ago and since then I was goldfishing every day. Today I had the chance to play my first real games in a small tournament. I went 4-1 and had a beautiful day today + found my new main deck ;D.

1. Round 2-1 against Maverick
2. Round 1-2 against Aggro Loam
3. Round 2-0 against Grixis Control
4. Round 2-1 against Black Reanimator
5. Round 2-1 against Eldrazi

Played the mono white list with 20 Lands and 4/4 Karns.

Not sure if it's allowed to post links here, but the tournament was streamed.
The quality is not great, and it's without sound, but at least all the matches that I won was on cam ;)
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/442586690

[Avez]

1. Round 2-1 against Maverick
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/442586690

At 9:16 Maverick player equips the sword when you have Karn in play :/ Glad that you still won the round though.

[Kaono]

Bit tardy, but wanted to share my 5-1 list from MF Seattle MCQ on Saturday.

Beat Ruby Storm, 4c Loam, Grixis Control, Dredge, UR Delver. Lost to Infect.

Tiebreakers were decent, but going into R6 I was in 18th place and needed a miracle to sneak in which obvs didn't happen.

Losing to infect was a bummer since it's a great MU for us. But I also was pretty lucky throughout the day so can't complain.

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Opal
3 Lion's Eye Diamond

3 Walking Ballista
4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Monastery Mentor

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
5 Plains
2 Karakas

3 Karn, Scion of Urza
4 Karn, the Great Creator

15 Sideboard
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Mycosynth Lattice
2 Containment Priest
1 Walking Ballista
1 Cast Out
2 Seal of Cleansing
3 Swords to Plowshares

I wanted to post because of two deck-building decisions that I think are still worth discussing. First, basic lands. We gain a very small % playing ancient den via boosting Karn tokens and enabling Opal, but we open the door to wastelands, other Karn Creators, and b2b/moon hurting us which I find unacceptable as a 1 color deck. Many times during the tournament like vs 4c Loam I was able to establish a board by dropping basics while facing down KotR or similar. The ability to go basic land, pass, followed by sol land into 3/4 drop is also very underrated. The absolute worst feeling in this deck is having no t1 play, then getting wastelanded. I sincerely don't think Ancient Den is worth playing, barring a specific meta that's fast like combo heavy or whatever. The downsides outweigh the upsides IMHO.

Second is the Seal of Cleansing in sideboard. It is something discussed earlier in this thread, but Seal is good vs S&T, allows us to pump our mentor and not wait for a target, and is also pretty good vs other Karn Creator decks by not having to worry about tapping out. It obviously has some downsides, but I think people have forgotten it as a very viable option as compared to the stock answer of Disenchant.

This was my first time playing bomberman in a while, so was just in awe all tournament at how good Karn Creator is in the deck. So much fun to play. Glad we keep getting so many new toys. Cheers and thanks for reading.

[Manroe]

I wanted to post because of two deck-building decisions that I think are still worth discussing. First, basic lands. We gain a very small % playing ancient den via boosting Karn tokens and enabling Opal, but we open the door to wastelands, other Karn Creators, and b2b/moon hurting us which I find unacceptable as a 1 color deck. Many times during the tournament like vs 4c Loam I was able to establish a board by dropping basics while facing down KotR or similar. The ability to go basic land, pass, followed by sol land into 3/4 drop is also very underrated. The absolute worst feeling in this deck is having no t1 play, then getting wastelanded. I sincerely don't think Ancient Den is worth playing, barring a specific meta that's fast like combo heavy or whatever. The downsides outweigh the upsides IMHO.

Second is the Seal of Cleansing in sideboard. It is something discussed earlier in this thread, but Seal is good vs S&T, allows us to pump our mentor and not wait for a target, and is also pretty good vs other Karn Creator decks by not having to worry about tapping out. It obviously has some downsides, but I think people have forgotten it as a very viable option as compared to the stock answer of Disenchant.



I agree with your point regarding the basics, however, I must point out that Disenchant is absolutely vital for Karn mirrors, as Seal can not interact with anything once an opposing lattice hits the table.

[StefN]

Another Saturday, another small tournament. We played 4 rounds today and I went 4-0 and made 1. place.

1. Round against Eldrazi. 2-1
2. Round against Burn. 2-0
3. Round against ANT. 2-1
4. Round against Goblins. 2-0

Today I played with 19 lands (1 Karakas). 3 Mentor, 4/4 Karns, 30 Artifacts (8 Bauble, 4 Ancient Den). Had 2 first turn kills with Salvager. This deck is insane ;).

[Darklingske]

Played a small tourney yesterday and boy, it was miserable.
R1 against grixis 4c 0-1
G1 fast combo
G2 he forces (or kills) my first 3 plays (Karn, Salvager, Salvager) and I end up drawing nothing more then lands, petals and baubles. I die through Jace ulti.
G3 I mull to 6 and never see more then 2 lands (non-sol ofcourse).
R2 against Maverick 0-2
G1 i manage to get him down to 3 and then he stabilizes and begins the waste lock with Knight beatdown. I never managed to get the combo.
G2 he has a T2 Teeg and T4 waste lock.
R3 against Lands 0-3
G1 I mull to 5 and he has a quick waste lock
G2 I manage a T2 Lattice lock
G3 I mull to 5 again and get stuck on 2 lands.
I drop with a very frustrated feeling.
This was my list:
4 Plains
2 Den
4 City
4 Tomb
4 Cavern
1 Karakas
4 Salvagers
3 Mentor
1 Canonist
1 Tomik
3 Ballista
4 Karn GC
2 Karn, Scion
3 LED
4 Cotv
4 Opal
4 Petal
4 Urza Bauble
4 Mishra Bauble
SB:
1 Ballista
1 LED
1 Lattice
1 Spyglass
1 Bridge
2 StP
2 CRypt
2 CPriest
2 Disenchant
1 Cast out
1 Generous Gift
Tested the Gifts as a catch all in the side and happy about it. It cleaned a Jace, Narset and Teeg. Canonist main is because I don't have the 4th mentor and it plays well with our main plan. Tomik was a test in a slot for Karn, Scion as I expected a lot of W6, but I never saw him (or W6). Only 2 Karn Scion as I feel that 4 is definitly 1 too many and am testing now with 2 and Tomik.

[Rationalist]

Has anyone tried Echo of Eons in a UW Build? I've been playing WB in paper whenever I'm back in Boston at my weeklies and Bobs have been treating me well against most decks. Being able to loop a couple EoEs with Mentor or Salvagers out sounds like a blast; my worry obviously is refilling my opponents hands or fizzling. I also like the added "Mulligan" power that it could bring to the table, especially with London Mull coming to Legacy.

I've considered it as I've been tinkering with a UW Skycloud Expanse build for Teferi, TR / Intuition, but with Mystic Forge if anything I'd be leaning back towards Mono-Colored rather than going down the priority list of Blue Splash cards.
I have stumbled across people playing around with this however

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/562714466022588446/600778163362201610/media-1563307065880-Jul_16_2019_9_15_AM.jpg?width=404&height=830

It's not a direction I'm personally interested in (and I'm far more open to a splash color than most), but there's a direction if you're still looking for one.

[Rationalist]

Speaking of Mystic Forge, here is some footage (for as long as Twitch keeps it up) of it being run on camera at the team SCG event today. (Spoilers: They don't end up winning the game in question, but it's a good showcase of how the card plays for those considering it as a Karn, SoU alternative).


https://www.twitch.tv/videos/455916284?t=04h10m06s

[Rationalist]

So, here's what I'm planning on running tonight with reasoning. Any and all feedback is appreciated

https://i.imgur.com/Gd9BbVu.png

So the premise of the blue splash is as follows:

1) I'm playing in a local meta where I believe Walking Ballista is less valuable as an independent midrange threat. (It is a non-card in several matchups)

2) Comboing off with Mentor, Karn TGC, a Bauble, or the 1x Ballista is more than sufficient.

What I currently believe:

1) My combo is occasionally a turn slower since I'm leaning more on comboing off bauble and drawing the deck, but is more consistent thanks to Teferi providing extra resiliency and what amounts to 3x instant speed Demonic Tutors that can occasionally grab extra value.

2) I am worse against Thalia decks.

3) I am better against blue Control decks than other Mystic Forge lists without Karn, SoU. I am more powerful than lists without Mystic Forge.

4) Four effective Basics is sufficient insulation against Wasteland decks for the archetype. It's not as good against Back to Basics as the 7 Plains lists, but I'm gaining far more points against the decks that run that card than I'm losing so it's still a net positive. Also, Basics are preferable to Artifact Lands in world with Wrenn and Six and without Scion of Urza.

5) I am extra weak to Damping Sphere, but I've never run into that card.

6) Skycloud Expanse is generally preferable to Tundra in a deck where you never cast a spell or activate an effect with a cost WW, UU, or U (or very rarely W), want to cast a UW1 spell, and have lots of colorless lands. (Playing Teferi Turn 2 is nice)

7) Teferi, TR not only protects against both countermagic, removal, and troublesome permanents (which is nice maindeck), he interacts wonderfully with Mentor, Mox Opal, and Lion's Eye Diamond + Mystic Forge / Mishra's Bauble.

8) Both Intuition and Prismatic Vista interact favorably with Mystic Forge.

9) In the Eye of Chaos is worth bringing in against Blue decks.

10) Were I running Disenchant over Seal of Cleaning I would be the slight favorite in the Bomberman Mirror due to the flexibility maindeck Teferi gives me for leveraging Chalice on 0 and my ability to tutor on Turn 2. Running Seal of Cleaning over Disenchant is a meta call given that I rarely ever see the Karn Mirror and I want to bring in Seal in the same matchups as In the Eye of Chaos, plus I can play it proactively and trigger mentor. I can't as confidently claim advantage in the mirror, but given what I picked up before the sacrifice it doesn't feel a huge problem.

11) 1 Fetch with 3 Basics is acceptable. It's unusual, but I think it unlikely to bite me.

Things I myself am skeptical about:

1) Is 1 Swords enough with a lesser density of maindeck Ballista?

2) I'm currently on Oblivion Ring over Cast Out because I'm clearly leaning into the Blue Control matchups. Is that worthwhile or a net loss?

3) I currently don't feel like Urza is worthwhile. Does the independent existence of "Urza Stompy" argue against me here?

[Rationalist]

Been experimenting with cleaning up and focusing the UW list

https://i.imgur.com/z5at8P2.png

Still 4 "Basics"but may want to move to 5. Just focused on being as consistent as possible and moving the powerful but less consistent Forge to the sideboard for Game 1 as a Karn target. Commit as an experimental Cast Out replacement as it does much the same as Cast Out does, trades time for answerability, has the significant bonus of interacting with spells, and can be leveraged to make make messier Intuition piles with even a marginal aftermath with a bad Echo of Eons strapped on for value. Given the number of targets that don't mind going straight to the yard my dream is to find a card worth playing maindeck just to constant eek out extra value when using Intuition as a 3-mana Karn-style LED tutor.

[Rationalist]

Making a slight change to how I'm playing the UW list

https://i.imgur.com/UdJUoqh.png


Creatures (10)
2 Walking Ballista
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Auriok Salvagers

Planeswalkers (6)
2 Teferi, Time Raveler
4 Karn, the Great Creator

Spells (3)
3 Intuition

Artifacts (21)
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mishra's Bauble
3 Mox Opal
3 Urza's Bauble

Lands (20)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
1 Island
2 Plains
1 Prismatic Vista
4 Skycloud Expanse

Sideboard (15)
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Walking Ballista
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Containment Priest
2 Nature's Chant
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Mystic Forge
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Commit // Memory


Two most questionable parts remain

1) Whether Commit makes any sense in the Sideboard as a Cast Out replacement.

2) Whether the 4th Skycloud expanse wants to be a 5th Basic / Fetch.

Here's the note on part 2 - Mathematically, if you run a 3 Basic / 2 Fetch arrangement of lands, don't draw more than 3 in the opening hand, play the members of the set you draw every turn, and ignore situations where you draw more than one in a single turn due to Bauble, if you draw every member of the set you have a 50% chance of drawing a dead fetch. (Basically, assign an order to the 3/2 split A, B, C, D, E. 40% of the time E will be a fetch, and 10% of the time the exact arrangement should be B B F F B and obviously the second fetch would not have a target remaining). So just "adding a Flooded Strand" has this particular cost. Replacing with an Island or Plains (would probably be plains, but do keep in mind that all the creatures also enjoy the luxury of the 4x Cavern of Souls as additional manasources, so I'd want to do the hypergeometric calc on it) has its own obvious cost.

[Rationalist]

Spent an hour or so running through all of the combinations of mana to investigate the "5th Basic" idea.

https://i.imgur.com/PMUlj9Q.png

Above are the distributions I calculated, with my math included. With respect to Basics (I will fold fetches under this umbrella for now), running 0 - 8 'Basics' grants you between a 0% chance and a 65.4% chance of having one in the opening hand to allow you to insulate against wastelands, with diminishing returns the more you add. Increasing from 4 to 5 increases these odds from 40% to 47.5%, granting an extra 7.5% chance of having such a card in the opening hand. Running through all the possible combinations of cards that would allow the player to play Teferi turn 2 on the play (meaning 7 other cards), the chance that a set of 7 cards is able to provide the mana for Teferi with precisely 2 land drops decreases from 38.2% to 34.8%, a drop of only 3.4% Looking towards a bit farther on towards the midgame, I also did the combinatorics for how well any 3 random manasources would be able to cast Teferi with respect to the change. With a strict limit of 3 random manasources, the chance that those 3 are able to produce the appropriate 1UW drops from 70.9% to 67.8%, a drop of only 3.1%

Obviously both of these numbers converge to high values as the limit on manasources is expanded.

All in all, replacing 1 Skycloud Expanse with 1 Plains lines up better against an opposing Wasteland in the opening hang 7.5% of the time, and only gets in the way of casting a Teferi in the early to mid game about 3% of the time. This ratio diverges if one continues to replace Expanses with Basics, as even on 5 one is only ~10% under the rate of the 7 Basics lists, so I currently doubt more than 5 Basic/Fetch are worthwhile given the diminishing returns, but I am more heavily considering the change in question (or, alternatively, dropping the 4th Cavern).

Also, the hypergeometric distributions necessarily include a calculation for the chance of Skyclouds causing a problem because they don't provide mana on their own. (I've faced a lot of skepticism on the mere use of the card Skycloud Expanse). When limited to only 3 mana sources, one of which is an Expanse, the calculated risk of this causing a "seize up" is less than 1%. Also, reducing the count to 3 Expanse would lower this calculated risk to less than 0.1%.

(EDIT - There is a slight typo in the math to the mid-to late game calculations. I won't go back to correct it, but the actual numbers should be correct)

[Rationalist]

A quick sequel to the above. The success of a colleague with a 3 Cavern list resonated with my own experience, so I ran the numbers on cutting Caverns back to 3 on the UW list I've been developing.

https://i.imgur.com/i1oTRul.png

Assuming I did the math right, it turns out that while it only halves the loss of the ability to play Teferi T2 from -3.2% to -1.6%, it actually slightly increases the ability to play Teferi in the mid-to-late game, as the losses made by Skycloud + Colorless are more than made up by the gains in providing mana off of Basics and Basic + petal configurations (math included above).

This means that I can configure the deck in such a way that I'm actually only a single basic/effective short of the more recent stock 'mono' lists (6 v 7), which represents only a 6% difference in the likelihood of opening with a basic/effective-basic, and a then smaller than 6% difference on having the "2nd basic" on T2. All while actually increasing the mid-to-longterm ability to cast Teferi, and only decreasing the chance of having the mana to cast him Turn 2 by 1.6%.

This would make the current list


Creatures (10)
2 Walking Ballista
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Auriok Salvagers

Planeswalkers (6)
2 Teferi, Time Raveler
4 Karn, the Great Creator

Spells (3)
3 Intuition

Artifacts (21)
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mishra's Bauble
3 Mox Opal
3 Urza's Bauble

Lands (20)
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
1 Flooded Strand
1 Island
3 Plains
1 Prismatic Vista
3 Skycloud Expanse

Sideboard (15)
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Walking Ballista
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Containment Priest
1 Disenchant
1 Nature's Chant
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Mystic Forge
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Commit // Memory

[Rationalist]

Just doing some more math and keeping a record of my findings here. Now that the manabase includes 2 fetches, I did a hypergeometric investigation of replacing the 3rd Skycloud with a single Tundra in order to improve the quality of the two fetches. I don't believe I'm going to, and here's why:

https://i.imgur.com/5qV4EDP.png

All in all replacing a 3rd Skycloud with a 1st Tundra prevents Teferi from being castable on Turn 2 ~2.3% of the time, and prevents you from casting him off of 3 random active manasource in the mid-to-late game 1.5% of the time. Also these losses are buffered by the fact that the combinatorics just says that you'd be casting him off of a petal more often, which is a note because it's an additional resource that's being expended that isn't obvious just by stating the total % decrease.
All in all I'd say it generally "makes the 2 Teferi a worse card ~2% of the time".

Not a huge loss, but how useful is fetching up a Tundra? There are the same number of Fetches as Teferi, and a given fetch would be sans a 2nd colored mana (including Caverns) in the company of 8 other random cards ~4% of the time. I suspect I would not need to fetch a nonbasic Tundra in over 50% of those situations to simultaneously cast one of the decks 3 non-Teferi Blue Cards as well as a White card (of which there are only 8) off the same manasource. I would need to think through how those densities are likely to change postboard, but I'm still highly skeptical they'd get me wanting to fetch a Tundra over 50% of the time when I'm starved on color with a single fetch.

It's a plausible change with small numbers in either direction but I think overall it's for the worse. I just don't think I want to spend my fetchland getting a nonbasic so I can cast one of 8 cards along with one of 3 cards off a single colored source that often, and I'd certainly want to put more of a load of spells to cast off of lands rather than petals all else being equal.

So for tonight I'm probably sticking with this list

https://i.imgur.com/ldY1oca.png

Still super skeptical about the Commit in the board, but the mana feels great (at least anecdotally), Teferi answers so much of what the decks wants to answer from Ouphe to Removal to Counters to Dreadhorde Arcanist and Enchantments, and it's more direct and focused with blue tutors that can even eek out extra graveyard-value over forges that are mostly good with a pre-existing mentor and otherwise roll the dice and try to dig to action. Forge is still very good and I have one in the 75, but I don't think what the combo deck I want to pilot wants more in the main is a slightly inconsistent value-tool.

EDIT: Sorry for how "loud" the images are, but I think a visual record of the specifics is the best way to record the individual findings. If this thread becomes more popular again I will stop doing so, but as there's only been one other post in this thread within the last month I'm just recording the findings in the clearest way I can without worrying about the posts being "overpoweringly loud". I will try to shrink those images a bit though.

(EDIT #2: I want to run more numbers on the blue section of the manabase, however.)

[Rationalist]

2-1 Victory over Wrenn and Six RUG Delver for my Card Kingdom feature match tonight. Some embarrassingly sloppy play on my part, but shared anyways.


https://www.twitch.tv/videos/459855951?t=01h03m24s

Starts at 1 hour, 3 minutes, 24 seconds.

[Rationalist]

Just a pile of minor things.

1) Maxtortion from MinMax blog seems to have seen the light about Teferi in Bomberman and tweeted about how it fixes the decks problems. (https://twitter.com/maxtortion/status/1156941356230565888) He brewed up an Urza Bomberman (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2144977#online) list. Personally I'd rather go with a high count of Basics than go all non-basics for Urza, but Urza is definitely a powerful payoff if you don't mind giving up basics. I managed to chase him down and convince him to run at least 1 Skycloud Expanse.

2) Been iterating on Teferi / Intuition shell with the Discord. Current list and manabase is here (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/visual/2119124).

3) Minor bookkeeping, there was some small error in the math I posted earlier. Difference is incredibly minor and changes none of the conclusions, but for the sake of accuracy corrected versions are

Here (https://i.imgur.com/tL8Gx4O.png)

Here (https://i.imgur.com/s3aGtW7.png)

And Here (https://i.imgur.com/CkAalEn.png)

For those interested, [Here is an invite to the Discord (https://discord.gg/SjBjamd)]

[Nikedemos]

HI to all, im a new player of bomberman and i want to perform with this deck to the next MAGIS FEST BOLOGNA (Italy), yes its Legacy!!!

I want to ask to you if better play with 4 Karn creator and 3 Forge, or 4 and 4 Karn?

Regards,
Nikedemos.

[H]

Can't let Lurrus have all the fun. Zirda is also pretty good:

ZYURYO 6-1 deck from the Legacy Challenge (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2940678):

4 Karn, the Great Creator
2 Ugin, the Ineffable

4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Walking Ballista
2 Zirda, the Dawnwaker

2 Basalt Monolith
4 Chromatic Star
4 Grim Monolith
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Mox Opal
3 Mystic Forge
1 Retrofitter Foundry

3 Ancient Den
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
2 Karakas
3 Plains

Sideboard
1 Zirda, the Dawnwaker
1 Basalt Monolith
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Retrofitter Foundry
1 Defense Grid
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Mindbreak Trap
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Pithing Needle
1 Staff of Domination
2 Surgical Extraction

Why just one combo when you can have infinite mana with two?

[(nameless one)]

I wonder why the Foundry instead of Staff of Domination in the main. I guess the fear against Narset is real?

[H]

I wonder why the Foundry instead of Staff of Domination in the main. I guess the fear against Narset is real?

Maybe it was just found that Staff is less good outside the combo?