[Deck] Foretold Stompy

[Mackan]

Yesterday I put something together that I haven't seen before. There is probably a very good reason for that but let me explain why I didn't listen to logic:

After playing a bunch with As Foretold and suspend cards in modern I figured it's at least worth it to consider the shell for legacy play. It's just a super-fun card to play!
I saw a list with Hypergenesis, and while that is indeed powerful, I am not really in the business for creatures. All I knew was that I wanted Ancestral Vision to go with my As Foretold.

The go-to Ancestral Vision deck of choice is of course UR Stasis and I was excited to try As Foretold in it. It turns out that casting spells for free is pretty nice when neither player has access to mana!
It wasn't great. I then built another version more like Blue Moon but it lacked power and couldn't deal with the board.
I haven't fully explored these decks but I figured that As Foretold would be even more "playable" with Sol-lands and mana-acceleration. So I put Stasis on hold (heh) and started thinking about a Stompy shell instead. I despise anyone registering a deck with Chalice of the void in it but the love for As Foretold took over.

So... how do we break As Foretold with a bunch of mana-acceleration? Can we somehow turn the downside of wasting cards just to cast other cards ahead of schedule into something great? Without the cantrip cartel (Ponder/Brainstorm), I really needed a lot of power to compensate for the total lack of consistency. Enter Restore Balance. This card is what gave me the confidence to ask my fellow friends in the Miracle-Cabal to lend me the missing stompy cards. They surely lost the little respect they had left but it could not be helped.

So now the mission was to make the best Restore Balance deck in the history of Legacy (?). I don't really like creatures in the first place so of course I wouldn't include any (unless they are Spirit guides) in a list with Restore Balance. I do like me some value though so I would try to maximize the number of permanents in play (that Restore Balance would ignore) to have Restore Balance become a full one-sided Mind Twist! Wrath of God and Mind Twist your hand for 0 mana is fine and all, but I also wanted to blow up some lands...without hindering my own mana-development. One of the worst value-cards in the history of Magic is chrome mox. A straight up 1-2 land with some additional downsides to a land. It could not be helped. I had to make Restore Balance the greatest spell ever cast. So now we are looking at As Foretold, Ancestral Vision, Restore Balance and the usual suspects in a stompy Shell.

After building 99% of any deck I ask myself, how does it win? Usually it doesn't... And I don't mean because the deck is bad. There's simply nothing except my opponents boredom that would make them sign the result slip.
Restore Balance once again pointed me in a direction. I can either play a combo finish with Artifacts/Enchantments or I can go for some kind of Planeswalker ultimate. Being locked under a Chalice of the Void is a miserable experience so winning on the spot is out of the question. I love me some Jace and I having access to brainstorm in a deck like this is worth a ton. Easy inclusion. From here I could take a few different routes. I could stay mono-blue or splash another color. Red was the lazy choice as I already knew how powerful Chandra, Torch of Defiance was with As Foretold (that's at least something I can thank modern for). And Blood Moon + Simian Spirit guide is an old proven plan of making opponents cringe in their seats.

Now the deck was almost ready. I thought about Force of Will but it was hard to get a decent blue Count (switching blood moon for back to basics would do it, but that was something I didn't really want with my already "optimistic" mana-base). I put them in the board together with some other stuff that I spent about 30 seconds considering. I wanted to jam some games!

Lands
4 ancient tomb
4 volcanic island
4 scalding tarn
8 island

More mana
4 Simian Spirit guide
4 chrome mox

As foretold package
4 As foretold
4 ancestral vision
4 restore balance

Stax
4 ensnaring bridge
4 chalice of the void
4 blood moon

Walkers
4 chandra, torch of defiance
4 jace, the mind sculptor

Sideboard
4 leyline of the void
3 pyroclasm
4 flusterstorm
4 force of will

I streamed some matches www.twitch.tv/truckis123 yesterday. Punts and bad luck aside I was undefeated!

I need to look closer at the manabase. A mountain should be added. Maybe City of Traitors.

Any input appreciated.

----reserved for----

other "playable cards"

matchups

strategy

[Dillsdells]

This looks really fun, interested to see more results with it! Have you considered lotus bloom? Perhaps in place of simian, does this seem too greedy/all in on as fortold?

[TLK]

This looks legitimately awesome. You may be able to fit in Trinisphere somewhere in the 75. It's a staple of most stompy lists. Love the idea and can't wait to watch the videos.

[Jsang]

This looks legitimately awesome. You may be able to fit in Trinisphere somewhere in the 75. It's a staple of most stompy lists. Love the idea and can't wait to watch the videos.

Trinisphere is a nonbo with As Foretold, it may be a legit choice from the board in some match up where As Foretold is too slow and would be side out.

[Mackan]

Just 5-0:ed a league =D

http://imgur.com/a/B4HBs

http://imgur.com/a/B4HBs (Someone pls fix this link!)

To be fair I had some really good matchups and the stompy cards did most of the lifting.
I did have a few scenarios where the cardadvantage from my walkers was crucial and I also had a few wins on the back of As foretold into Balance.

As you can see I put a mountain in the maindeck (I cut an Ancient tomb for it). I still have no clue how much manaacceleration I can get away with just running 20 lands.
The sideboard was pretty good. Fow overperformed and I actually really liked it as a sideboard card. There are allready plenty of really bad draws and having fow makes it even worse... In the fair games atleast.
Take Possession is there to steal games vs Jace going ultimate. Probably not worth the slot.
Dack Fayden was pretty good vs DnT. He helps dealing with Aether Vial and revoker as well as helping me dig for critical pieces (while making sure I don't have uncastable spells and a Bridge in play!).
I think I want some number of engineered explosives to mop up elves and such but I didn't have them for the league.

Deck is fun!

[Michael Keller]

I've been play-testing a list similar to this over the course of the last few weeks. One card you may want to consider is Zuran Orb - especially when you're playing Restore Balance and Moxen.

[Mackan]

I considered Lotus Bloom but it's a bit weird in this list. The main purpose with it is to accelerate and either I allready have As foretold (and don't need it as much) or I have to suspend it which is very slow "acceleration".

Trinisphere Is a bit akward with AF/fow so I don't think I want it in this build.

Zuran Orb is an excellent idea! Would be great with land-recursion, any idea? I think Crucible of worlds is bad without wasteland/active fetches (blood moon).

Keep the ideas coming! :)

[Barook]

Have you considered Izzet Signet for acceleration + mana fixing? The double color requirement for your walkers seem pretty step.

Also, how viable would a Keranos be as an alternate wincon? Doesn't get hit by Restore Balance as long as it isn't a creature.

Could Burning Wish make the deck more consistent? Question is if there are any game-winning sorceries that fit the deck.

[Mackan]

Have you considered Izzet Signet for acceleration + mana fixing? The double color requirement for your walkers seem pretty step.

Also, how viable would a Keranos be as an alternate wincon? Doesn't get hit by Restore Balance as long as it isn't a creature.

Could Burning Wish make the deck more consistent? Question is if there are any game-winning sorceries that fit the deck.

Izzet signet is pretty good with my walkers but it doesn't accelerate the stompy pieces or As Foretold. As much as I hate chrome mox I think it's better for this deck. Maybe there's room for Izzet Signet on top of what I have but I don't know what to cut.

Keranos is a spicy one but I think chandra/jace are better as they have board-pressence right away. I was considering Tezzeret the Seeker too but Jace/Chandra feels like a league above everything else at 4+ Mana.

Burning Wish is very intresting... I like a toolbox. What would we search for?:)

Speaking of toolbox... A friend suggested Tolaria West. It can grab Cotv, Ancestral Vis, Balance aswell as sideboard cards (like Zuran Orb and Engineered Explosives). Maybe a Walking Ballista too :)

[mistercakes]

i like that you can run some pretty cool sorceries like jokulhaups, cruel ultimatum, vindicate, supreme verdict (or other wrath), armageddon etc.

[kombatkiwi]

You posted a similar list in the stasis thread, where I replied (here is just the mostly relevant part because your list there was slightly different)



Turn 1s like Tomb + Mox + Foretold + Balance on turn 1 are obviously great but not consistent enough to be better than decks that just focus on turn 1 moon or turn 1 chalice imo


I was curious to see how this compared to the list that I tried so I watched the replay you uploaded. (At first I thought the no-audio communicate-by-typing-in-notepad style was weird but it does make the matches easier to watch at 2x speed, maybe it would be better to type in twitch chat instead but I guess that is harder depending on your physical computer setup, ie. if you only have 1 monitor)

(TLDR at the end)

Match 1
G1
You play chalice @2 against lands but eventually lose because you get wasted and can't cast anything(hand is full of 3+ cmc)
G2
Fast jace off of ATomb then into chandra/moon/ensnaring
G3
Turn 1 Moon off of SSG+Mox
Opponent cant do anything and eventually you play chandra on like turn 7 or something
Visions gets turned off by your own chalice @0
Later you play 1 As Foretold but you can't cast anything with it because of the chalice
2-1

Match 2
G1
Turn 1 Moon (Tomb/SSG) gets forced vs trop/hierarch start
Opp has turn 2 TNN
Your turn 2 hand is 4 lands and 2 chrome mox
Topdeck one more land
Opponent plays SFM and another Hierarch
Topdeck: SSG
G2
Mull to 6 (shipping 1 lander)
Turn 1 Chalice for 1 (Mox imprinting pyroclasm) leaving behind as foretold + Moon
Next topdeck is flusterstorm which is blanked by your chalice @1
Next topdeck is SSG, exile SSG to cast Moon, gets forced
Opp plays containment preist (thinks you are sneak and show? nice lol) and TNN
You draw land so you can play As Foretold
You draw another as Foretold
You draw a land
Your opponent kills you and you reveal your next 2 draws to be another As Foretold and another Flusterstorm
0-2
You boarded out 1 Restore Balance here, I think if you are boarding out Restore Balance against TNN decks then you shouldn't be maindecking 4

Match 3
G1
Turn 1 Volc + SSG into chalice @1 keeping As Foretold, Bridge, SSG, Chandra
Opponent plays temple + SSG into 3/3 endless
Your turn 2 = nothing
Opponent plays TKS taking As Foretold (you have multiple bridge in hand now so no point taking that)
Opponent plays smasher and now even topdecking tomb to play bridge, your hand will not be small enough to live
G2
Mulligan the 7 (3 Ancestral 2 Tomb 1 Volc 1 Balance)
Mulligan the 6 (4 Island 1 SSG 1 Jace)
Mulligan the 5 (2 Moon 1 SSG 1 Bridge 1 Vision)
Mulligan the 4 (1 Vision 1 SSG 2 Chandra)
Keep the 3 (1 Island 1 Force 1 Mox)
Opponent has turn 2 TKS for the Ensnaring Bridge you scried to the top
You draw another Bridge but you have no mana and the opponent has another TKS
0-2

Match 4
G1
Keep (Fetch Island Volc Chalice Mox SSG Moon)
Both players land, go (Chat calls you out for not imprinting SSG and playing chalice turn1)
Turn 2 Chalice @1
Opponent plays lotus petal
Turn 3 Moon, opp uses only land to fetch in response for basic swamp, then concedes
G2
Keep LeylineOTV 2 Island 2 Ancestral 1 Chalice 1 Jace
Opponent concedes instantly
2-0

Match 5
G1
Keep (Island Fetch Mox Chalice Bridge Balance Jace)
Imprint Balance play Chalice for 1
Opponent plays Tranquil thicket
Turn 2 land, Bridge
Turn 3 Exile SSG, Chalice for 2
Opponent concedes
G2 Keep (Jace Mox Bridge Island Chalice SSG Moon)
Draw Volc
Turn 1 Moon imprinting Jace
Turn 2 Ensnaring Bridge (Opponent Grips your Moon off basic forest and wastes volc)
Durdle time
You topdeck moon and then SSG but your opponent grips it again
Now you have 4 mana but are against double port
Your opponent starts looping ghost quarters and you concede
Note: you ask your chat here "I can only play chalice for 0 with As Foretold, right? Unless double Sphere is in play" You can only play chalice for 0 with As Foretold even with 2x sphere, just because it's a colorless X spell doesn't mean it works like Engineered Explosives.
I also think bridges are more important in this M/U than Restore Balances
G3 Keep (Moon SSG Volc Tomb Jace Foretold Balance)
Turn 1 Moon (Some tension between turn 1 moon vs turn 1 Foretold)
Turn 2 draw chalice, chalice @1
You draw a 3rd land but it's a fetch so you can't cast anything
Opponent grips your chalice (has mox to play around moon somewhat)
You draw bridge and play that
Durdle some more
You draw a 4th land which is also a fetch
You have RRRR mana and your hand is Jace, Foretold, Balance, Visions x2, Leyline of the Void x2
Opponent kills your moon finally but now you are apparently stuck under ports again
You topdeck Tomb so can play Foretold, Balance
Opponent keeps Taiga, Depths, Stage
Makes Lage eot
Untap Land, Grip Bridge
You are dead
1-2

Match 6
G1
Keep Jace, Mox, Balance x2, Volc, Fetch, Tomb
Opp Island, Ponder
Topdeck mox
Imprint balance, suspend balance
Opponent Island, go
You play jace into counterspell
You imprint Moon onto 2nd Mox to play Chandra, which gets hit by counterspell
You play chalice for 2, opponent Snapcaster counterspell
Your balance comes off suspend, opponent responds with brainstorm > Predict > force
You draw jace but your opponent had already played a mentor and snap-counters your jace anyway
You topdeck bridge but your opponent has hardcast fow
I pretty much agree with how you SB here
G2
Mull once (4 Lands 2 Chandra 1 Bridge)
You keep Tomb x2, Vision x2, Bridge, Mox
Scry mox to the bottom
Play tomb, Mox imprint vision, suspend the other vision
Opponent cantrips, your bridge resolves
When your Ancestral comes off suspend your opponent has double mentor and forces it
Your opponent plays Surgical on your ancestral and in response you use your last card (FoW)
Opponent snaps off disenchant for your Bridge in response and you die to Monk army
0-2

Match 7
G1
Keep Tomb, 2x Island, 2x Chalice, Foretold, Visions on the draw
Opponent land, go
Turn 1 Chalice off tomb
Turn 2 Foretold, play ancestral
Opponent didn't play a spell on 1 or a 2 and didn't play a 3rd land
Turn 3 Chandra prompts the concession
G2
Keep Chandra x2, FoW, SSG, Volc, Chalice, Jace
Draw island
Turn 1 Chalice gets Forced
You force back Pitching jace (hand is volc + 2 chandra)
Draw As Foretold
Draw Tomb
Play as Foretold
Draw SSG, exile SSG to play Chandra
Opponent unexpectedly absents your Chalice for 0 then Brainstorms in response
Chandra resolves
Oppponent plays Portent and Brainstorm
You draw chalice and play chalice for 2
In response opp Disenchants your Foretold
Opp casts snap ino your chalice
You play another Foretold off a chandra plus and opponent concedes
2-0

Match 8
G1
Bridge, Mox, 2x Chandra, 3x Island (Keep on the draw)
Opponent turn 1 Probe, Delver
Topdeck chalice
Imprint Chandra, play chalice, gets dazed
Next turn your bridge resolves
You draw balance, you have 4 mana but only R from chrome mox so you can't cast Chandra
Next turn draw Volc play chandra, delver can't attack you now (at 11 life)
Opp plays Bedlam Reveler
You keep ticking up Chandra
Opponent plays 2 swiftspears and then probe to try and hit chandra for 4 but one of your last 2 cards is a SSG so bridge can still hold them back
You draw mox to imprint your last card (balance)
(3 in a row plussing your chandra reveals a 2nd chandra, mox, and ancestral)
You draw As foretold but you have like a million mana anyway and no cards in hand
As a last gasp effort your opponent miracles thunderous wrath and chain lightnings your face for 8 damage but you are on 11 and your opponent is at 2
G2
Keep Foretold, Balance x2, Ancestral, Fluster, Mox, Island
Opponent probe, land
Draw jace
Imprint balance
Suspend Visions
Opponent plays swiftspear
You draw another jace
Opponent plays 3rd land and tries Smash to Smithereens on your mox
You fluster
Opponent Dazes but you can still pay 1 with untapped mox (Yee #1)
You draw another ancestral and suspend that
Opponent plays Pithing Needle on Chrome Mox (Yee #2)
Your opponent plays Sulfuric Vortex and Forces your first ancestral
You draw a 3rd land and play As Foretold and Balance
Your opponent loses 1 Volcanic island and the Swiftspear, you discard 2 Jaces keeping chandra, at 9, your opp is at 12 you only have 2 mana and the opponent still has vortex.
Your opponent plays Delver
You draw tomb, concede
G3
Keep (FoW x2, Jace Island Fetch Chalice Mox)
Turn 1 Chalice Imprint FoW
Turn 2 As foretold gets hit by FoW
Opponent attempts a Smash on chalice but you Fow
You cast Simian
Opponent cast Vortex
You keep play tombs with nothing to cast with them which is questionable against PoP (nevermind your chat also points this out)
You play another Simian
Opponent dies to Monkeys + Vortex
2-1

TLDR:
M1 (Lands)
G1: Chalice not good enough (L)
G2: PW + Moon good enough (W)
G3: Moon good enough (W)

M2 (Bant Blade)
G1: Moon gets Countered (L)
G2: Chalice not enough, moon countered (L)

M3 (Eldrazi)
G1: Chalice not enough (L)
G2: Mulligan to oblivion (L)

M4 (BR? Reanimator)
G1: Chalice + Moon good enough (W)
G2: Leyline of the Void is GG (W)

M5 (Lands)
G1: Chalice + Bridge good enough (W)
G2: Double moon gets gripped and you get wastelocked with a bridge down (L)
G3: Opponent has time to cast Grip x3 and kills you with Marit Lage through a Balance (L)

M6 (UW Miracle)
G1: No lockpieces in sight and opponent counters all of your threats (L)
G2: Bridge gets killed and you die to mentor (L)

M7 (UW Miracle)
G1: Fast chalice into PW is good enough (W)
G2: Chalice countered but Chandra still good enough (W)

M8 (UR Delver)
G1: Chalice countered, win with Bridge + Chandra (W)
G2: Your opponent punts all over the place and you Foretold > Balance but it doesn't do enough(L)
G3: Chalice good enough (W)

4-4 Record

In 8 Matches (19 games):
- You played Balance twice with as Foretold
- Both games this happened you still lost
- You played Ancestral off of As Foretold only once (Not counting the time you cast it into your own chalice-0 to trigger your chandra emblem)
- You cast a suspended ancestral twice and it got countered both times
- You cast a suspended balance once (quite impressive seeing as your only way to make white mana is to use Chrome mox imprinting another balance) and that got countered as well
- You never cast any other spell with As Foretold (anything costing more than 0)

The deck is not absolutely terrible but this is just a function of how powerful certain cards are (Google 'Jacob Wilson Legacy Pirate Cruise' for an entertaining demonstration of this). The As Foretold package (As Foretold + Suspend cards) seems too hard to assemble without library manipulation and even when it does come together it doesn't do enough. All of your wins came from Chalice/Bridge/Moon. Multiple times there were dead As Foretolds in your hand (i.e. No spell to cast with them) or you were colorscrewed (Chandra stranded by all islands or Jace/Foretold turned off by Moon), I'm pretty sure this is just strictly worse than normal Dragon Stompy.

[TLK]

Looks like someone else 5-0'd with your list too.

[Philipp2293]

Looks like someone else 5-0'd with your list too.

Not just someone, this is Hall of Famer Kenji Tsumura. Seems like he copied the exact list, hope he runs it back so we can see his adjustments.

[Whitefaces]

I top 8d our monthly in London with the deck.

2-1 Sneak and Show
2-0 Esper Stoneblade
2-1 Punishing Thieves
2-1 DnT
ID
ID

Quarters
1-2 DnT

Flickerwisp on Chalice setting it to 0 is a real beating, need to figure something out for that. The deck has been really impressive though! Not all the wins were off the back of quick Chalice/Moons, Balance is a really messed up card, and the PWers are obviously super powerful when powered out and protected by bridges.

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Dack Fayden

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Blood Moon
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 As Fortold
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Restore Balance

4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Ancient Tomb
7 Island
1 Mountain

SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Pyroclasm
1 Kozilek's Return
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
2 Mindbreak Trap

[Mackan]

@kombatkiwi

thanks for the lenghty analysis! I'm not going over all of the games but let's discuss your conclusion about the manabase and comparsion to dragon stompy.

Manabase:
This is something that I need to work on for sure. RR and UU spells in a stompy Shell is not exactly and upgrade from Monored. It seems bad but it really hasn't been _that_ awful. Sometimes I establish a red manabase and draw my blue cards so maybe I need Cascade bluffs, I'm not exactly sure. It doesn't fix anything if I have a blood moon in play.
The total number of lands can be questioned aswell and I tried one League with 22 lands (cutting 2 ensnaring bridge for 2 mountains) but it's hard to come to any conclusion from just one league. It's a delicate balance between colored manasources/acceleration/number of manaproducing permanents. I think the priority is to figure out the minimum number of manaproducing permanents because I can't brainstorm any excessive lands back as easy as the other blue decks can. I need a lot more data to know for sure. Basic mountain has helped a ton atleast. Figuring out which hands to keep is also very important and during that very first stream I Think I kept some questionable hands.

spells:
The first 70% or so is similar and while I Think that the similarities are the best cards in either deck I Think my version offer some advantages.
The dragon-stompy Shell typically plays Magus of the Moon, Fiery confluence, Sin prodder and Trinisphere where I have Restore balance, Ancestral Vision, As foretold and Jace.
Dragon stompy has a better manabase and more early plays but it's fragile to creature-removal and IMO more of a one-trick-pony. It can't really play the attritionbased games so if your 4c-Pile opponent force of will your first play and fetch a basic plains to swords to plowshares your followup there's not much left to do. What I like to do in these matchups is to lead on basic Island and suspend an ancetral vision T1. The idea is that Everything I cast is a must-counter so this will leave both players low on Resources and that's where Ancestral Vision thrives. Your opponent will skip a turn to hold up spell pierce etc. Before AV comes off of suspend I will hopefully jam enough bombs to overcome whatever disruption my opponent has. And if not then we aren't really looking at any preassure, right? I will hopefully buy enough time to land a Jace which is then a clear upgrade to Sin Prodder and so on. Normally the stompy decks want to Close the game asap but with these cards I don't think it's needed, atleast not in these grindy games. Similar to Tezzerator. It is true that Restore Balance is terrible on it's own (chrome mox fodder, mostly) and that As foretold is just "fine". The power of playing them together, while very random, is through the roof good (see thopter/sword for a similar combo). Some games are simply over once you have both of these cards. After all, this is just not a stompy deck but also planeswalker Control and that's only possible because of restore balance. It's not uncommon for me to have an as foretold in play and 2-3 turns Before I'm dead. with 8 Walkers 4 ensnaring bridge and 8 powerful suspendcards I still have some outs to not only crawl back into the game but to completly turn them around.

TL;DR Dragonstompy is a more consistent stompy-deck but lacks the Control-angle whoch lets you grind win grindy games and come back from behind vs aggro. With pyroclasm and force of will in the sideboard I get access to more angles of attack and I like to have options, even in a deck without brainstorm.

I still don't Think the deck is particullary good but it's fun and I like to see how far we can push it.

Since I 5-0:ed that Daily I have made some minor adjustments. I want Defense Grid in the sideboard for sure but I don't know what to cut. Flusterstorm seems easy to get rid of but I want to keep the number of blue cards up to atleast 18 for force of will. It's possible I shouldn't be playing Force of will but I think it's a must. We can't really protect ourselves from a hurkyll's recall/echoing truth/whatever and without a clock any combo-deck can just kill us eventually.

I read on Twitter that Andrea Mengucci has played the deck through a League and hopefully we'll see the videos later this week :D

[Karhumies]

Why AoE creature removal (Restore Balance) has a niche slot in the current Legacy metagame:

With the banning of Top, Terminus has disappeared from the metagame. We now see more "all-in"/creature swarm strategies than before. This has pushed monored stompy players from the aggro/beatdown role into the control/wipe-the-board role. A practical problem in taking up this control role using "traditional" monored stompy lists has been protection from red (Mother of Runes, SoFI, TNN, SB Absolute Law) and MD Phyrexian Revoker/SB Pithing Needle shutting down Chandra. Restore Balance is a creature wipe (primarily), hand disruption (secondarily) and semi-armageddon (tertiarily) all in one neat package. Against a typical monored stompy list, D&T player landing a Sanctum Prelate on 4 will typically shut off all forms of monored stompy's win conditions and Fiery Cnfluence removal, and if the prelate is backed up by a Mother of Runes to protect it from SB Pyrokinesis/Fiery Confluence, this can be game. Running Restore Balance gets around this problem.


let's discuss your conclusion about the manabase and comparsion to dragon stompy.

About playing the attrition game: some monored stompy builds have lately become Monored Prison/Stax decks with 4x MD Smokestack to generate card advantage (Goblin Rabblemaster provides sacrificeable permanents) + 4x Avaricious Dragon (essentially run in the same slot where you are running Jace TMS) for card draw which simultaneously ensures that your hand stays empty for the Ensnaring Bridge. Sample list:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19745-Deck-Dragon-Stompy&p=1012112&viewfull=1#post1012112

[kombatkiwi]

I agree that being able to build your deck in a way that dodges creature removal is a plus, which is something that typical builds of Dragon Stompy do not do, but there's no way a deck with x4 Chrome Mox x4 Simian x8-12 redundant lockpiece x4 0-cmc-enabler can play an 'attrition game'; you have so much air in your deck and without any counterspells or discard (a la Shardless) you have no way to protect an Ancestral on the stack which was seen in the VoD when you only resolved it once. This is why I summarized so many of your games as like "Moon countered. Lose" you are still very much this kind of 'one-trick pony'.

I don't have a massive problem with the R(u) stompy shell because it clearly has the ability to win you some games but you are essentially only using As Foretold as a Show and Tell for A) x4 Concentrate or B) x4 Wrath of God. What if you just cut x4 As Foretold x4 Visions x4 Balance for x4 Show and Tell x8 Huge Wincon? Of course you can't play Emrakul/Grisel because it's a nonbo with Ensnaring Bridge but you could always use Form of the Dragon or Staff of Nin or some other similar big dumb thing (and in the late game these are also potentially still castable).

I think an even better way to increase your win percentage would be to cut Balance and Ancestral and As Foretold and Jace, switch to a mono red manabase and add 16 Chandras but of course that's not allowed. There are other options that exist (e.g. Outpost Siege, Koth, Goblin Assault?, Red Sweepers, Aether Grid) but Dragon Stompy players have obviously still think Sin Prodder / Rabble / Thunder Regent are worth playing so maybe I'm wrong. Looking at this list for example:

(I just found this currently on the 3rd-to-last page of the DS thread, it top4 a 60-player event recently)

18 LANDS
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain

14 CREATURES
4 Magus of the Moon
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Quicksmith Rebel
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Sin Prodder

4 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Fiery Confluence

24 OTHER SPELLS
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Chrome Mox
4 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Koth of the Hammer
3 Trinisphere

SIDEBOARD
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Sudden Shock
4 Sulfur Elemental
4 Sun Droplet
1 Trinisphere

Once you decide that having the 4-8th Moons is worth it (which seems reasonable, you do win many games where you stick that card) then cutting all creatures becomes impossible so the opportunity cost of adding Sin Prodders (card advantage / wincon even under Bridge) is much lower. You have additional means to protect your creatures with Trinisphere, and more sol lands for acceleration because you don't need a second color for anything (2-4 fewer lands total = more gas). This deck still includes all the ways the UR deck wins games and then just cuts all the bad cards. Yes Jace > Koth but that probably isn't worth the massive loss of consistency you get from trying to play both UU and RR spells with Ancient Tomb and Blood Moon.

Edit: The post above got added as I was typing, if Prelate/Mom is a big issue you can put Kozilek's return in your SB (or x4 Sulfur Elemental like this list). Avaricious Dragon sounds like an okay idea.

[Whitefaces]

Balance is nothing like Wrath of God, it's a ridiculously broken card.

You play the attrition game with a higher number of 'must answers' (same lock pieces, plus more walkers and the suspend cards), card advantage (AV, walkers) and filtering (walkers).

[mistercakes]

Would izzet signet help this deck out?

[Karhumies]

I agree that being able to build your deck in a way that dodges creature removal is a plus, which is something that typical builds of Dragon Stompy do not do, but there's no way a deck with x4 Chrome Mox x4 Simian x8-12 redundant lockpiece x4 0-cmc-enabler can play an 'attrition game' ...

A big difference between monored stompy and As Foretold decks:

When monored stompy gets way behind on the board against a creature deck, the only thing holding the pillow fortress together is post SB Ensnaring Bridge (Chalice and Moon effects only slow creature decks down, they don't completely stop them unless they run 0 basics). Post sb with artifact hate thrown in, that pillow fortress is not very sturdy, especially on the draw when the opponent has fetched a basic on t1. In other words, keeping Chandra alive versus a bunch of creatures is not a simple task to accomplish.

As Foretold into Restore Balance allows climbing back into the game against a creature deck from pretty much any board situation, regardless of how many non-counter cards they are holding back in their hand. Those get taken away as well. If it's a Planeswalker into Restore Balance, that can get very ugly very fast.

[kombatkiwi]

Balance is nothing like Wrath of God, it's a ridiculously broken card.

You play the attrition game with a higher number of 'must answers' (same lock pieces, plus more walkers and the suspend cards), card advantage (AV, walkers) and filtering (walkers).

Balance has to be set up to be broken/ significantly more powerful than wrath, which this deck can only do on absurd nutdraws that are extremely all-in and vulnerable to counterspells (like Tomb Mox+Imprint Foretold Balance turn 1). It's better in vintage because you can play actual mox instead of chrome mox and the modern deck with Restore Balance is built entirely around the card, with Borderposts to develop your mana while reducing your landcount, and playing Greater Gargadon to sacrifice any lands that are leftover while also being a huge threat post-balance. Just throwing it into a control deck isn't going to produce anything significantly more powerful than the guaranteed 'kill all creatures' mode and it can even backfire (e.g. in one of the matches where it made the OP discard 2 planeswalkers).

The second statement is just totally false, URw has a fewer number of lockpieces (No Magus, no Trinisphere) and fewer threats (because As Foretold by itself is a blank and you have a higher land count) than mono-R.

[kombatkiwi]

A big difference between monored stompy and As Foretold decks:

When monored stompy gets way behind on the board against a creature deck, the only thing holding the pillow fortress together is post SB Ensnaring Bridge (Chalice and Moon effects only slow creature decks down, they don't completely stop them unless they run 0 basics). Post sb with artifact hate thrown in, that pillow fortress is not very sturdy, especially on the draw when the opponent has fetched a basic on t1. In other words, keeping Chandra alive versus a bunch of creatures is not a simple task to accomplish.

As Foretold into Restore Balance allows climbing back into the game against a creature deck from pretty much any board situation, regardless of how many non-counter cards they are holding back in their hand. Those get taken away as well. If it's a Planeswalker into Restore Balance, that can get very ugly very fast.

I think maindeck ensnaring bridge in DS is good, as in the list I posted. The matches showed that bridge is good, I'm not saying you should cut that card.
DS also has Fiery Confluence to wipe creatures and while this obviously isn't as good as balance vs TNN / Eldrazi Ass / Mother of Runes, needing your board wipe to be paired with your Show and Tell in your deck with 0 Ponder/Brainstorm is sketchy as fuck and the Hand/Land disruption aspect isn't reliable and can backfire.

Edit: Sorry for doublepost

[Whitefaces]

Balance has to be set up to be broken/ significantly more powerful than wrath, which this deck can only do on absurd nutdraws that are extremely all-in and vulnerable to counterspells (like Tomb Mox+Imprint Foretold Balance turn 1). It's better in vintage because you can play actual mox instead of chrome mox and the modern deck with Restore Balance is built entirely around the card, with Borderposts to develop your mana while reducing your landcount, and playing Greater Gargadon to sacrifice any lands that are leftover while also being a huge threat post-balance. Just throwing it into a control deck isn't going to produce anything significantly more powerful than the guaranteed 'kill all creatures' mode and it can even backfire (e.g. in one of the matches where it made the OP discard 2 planeswalkers).

The second statement is just totally false, URw has a fewer number of lockpieces (No Magus, no Trinisphere) and fewer threats (because As Foretold by itself is a blank and you have a higher land count) than mono-R.

You don't need to nut draw people with Balance, it's still capable of really broken things late game too. And it's technically better with Chrome Mox than the P9 Moxen since it empties your hand more.

I'm making a difference between threats and must answer threats, this deck has more must answer threats (PWs mostly). If you want to talk about blanks as you say AF is, then DS has so much redundancy in lock pieces they have plenty of blanks after the first too. I'm not just making these things up, I've played the deck, it can play an attrition game much better than you think. Clearly you're not convinced though, so you're welcome to carry on playing DS. Maybe it is better, but it doesn't appeal to all players.

[kombatkiwi]

You don't need to nut draw people with Balance, it's still capable of really broken things late game too. And it's technically better with Chrome Mox than the P9 Moxen since it empties your hand more.

I'm making a difference between threats and must answer threats, this deck has more must answer threats (PWs mostly). If you want to talk about blanks as you say AF is, then DS has so much redundancy in lock pieces they have plenty of blanks after the first too. I'm not just making these things up, I've played the deck, it can play an attrition game much better than you think. Clearly you're not convinced though, so you're welcome to carry on playing DS. Maybe it is better, but it doesn't appeal to all players.

A late game balance in this deck is where you have a few lands in play and not that many cards in your hand and the opponent is in roughly the same spot. If your opponents hand is full of cards then its a bunch of uncastable stuff they can't get through moon/chalice and they won't care about discarding. It's a slightly more spicy version of Wrath that admittedly does have some applications against combo, but what version of combo are you worried about in your 4x Bridge 4x Moon 4x Chalice deck. (That you cut Trinisphere from in order to fit this in).

The difference between AF and 4 more moons or 3 Trinispheres is that yes while the 2nd and 3rd copies of all of these don't help much, the first copy of Magus and 3Ball actually does something on its own whereas AF doesn't.

Please explain the difference between a thread and a 'must answer' threat. When your opponent is under a Chalice/Bridge/Moon nearly any threat is a 'must answer' threat, you have already 'won' the game by resolving your lockpiece and stopping them from playing magic, now you just need some reasonably efficient way to take them down to 0 life. If your opponent is playing Grixis Delver and all their lands are mountains then it doesn't matter whether you have Koth or Chandra or Sin Prodder or Curse of the Pierced Heart, all of them are 'must answer' because your opponent will die regardless if they can't get rid of Moon. If it's not actually a hard lock though and your opponent can draw out of it, then you want cards that can quickly come down and kill your opponent, not wait around in your hand for the other half of the 2-card combo or be stuck uncastable because of your bad mana.

I don't have any experience playing either deck, I only watched the video and am theorycrafting based on the rest of my experience with legacy / deckbuilding. All of these drawbacks I am mentioning were apparent multiple times and the 'combo payoff' (AF into Ancestral) happened only once in 18 games.

Obviously the whole point of the discussion is to determine which deck is better, if you want to play this deck just because you think it's more fun then go ahead.

[Whitefaces]

A late game balance in this deck is where you have a few lands in play and not that many cards in your hand and the opponent is in roughly the same spot. If your opponents hand is full of cards then its a bunch of uncastable stuff they can't get through moon/chalice and they won't care about discarding. It's a slightly more spicy version of Wrath that admittedly does have some applications against combo, but what version of combo are you worried about in your 4x Bridge 4x Moon 4x Chalice deck. (That you cut Trinisphere from in order to fit this in).

Legacy is much too diverse to make up a scenario like that. You're also the one playing with Balance, you can sandbag lands, empty your hand quickly...there's plenty of ways to maximise the effect of the card. It's not just a wrath of god.


The difference between AF and 4 more moons or 3 Trinispheres is that yes while the 2nd and 3rd copies of all of these don't help much, the first copy of Magus and 3Ball actually does something on its own whereas AF doesn't.

I mean...sure, AF does nothing on it's own. That's why we're playing cards that make it powerful. Neither Magus or 3Ball are these bombs in plenty of matchups too.


Please explain the difference between a threat and a 'must answer' threat. When your opponent is under a Chalice/Bridge/Moon nearly any threat is a 'must answer' threat, you have already 'won' the game by resolving your lockpiece and stopping them from playing magic, now you just need some reasonably efficient way to take them down to 0 life. If your opponent is playing Grixis Delver and all their lands are mountains then it doesn't matter whether you have Koth or Chandra or Sin Prodder or Curse of the Pierced Heart, all of them are 'must answer' because your opponent will die regardless if they can't get rid of Moon. If it's not actually a hard lock though and your opponent can draw out of it, then you want cards that can quickly come down and kill your opponent, not wait around in your hand for the other half of the 2-card combo or be stuck uncastable because of your bad mana.

Being under a Chalice/Bridge/Moon is far from GG vs loads of the format, only Moon is an auto win against some of the bug decks, bridge and Chalice can be beaten by most of the format. You're backing these up with the rest of the deck. If you're playing against Grixis Delver and all their lands are mountains, then they can still cast Young Pyromancer, Lightning Bolt and Force of Will. It absolutely matters if your threats can be attacked with these cards.


I don't have any experience playing either deck, I only watched the video and am theorycrafting based on the rest of my experience with legacy / deckbuilding. All of these drawbacks I am mentioning were apparent multiple times and the 'combo payoff' (AF into Ancestral) happened only once in 18 games.

Basing everything off one set of games isn't really very helpful.


Obviously the whole point of the discussion is to determine which deck is better, if you want to play this deck just because you think it's more fun then go ahead.

No, it's not. The deck has been made this week, it's far from being tested and played enough to know what it is and isn't capable of.

And to the second point, that's a totally valid reason to play a deck. I have no interest in playing something like the mono red builds, it's much more all in and isn't anywhere near as flexible as this. Maybe that's technically 'better', but not something I find interesting at all.

[Karhumies]

The difference between AF and 4 more moons or 3 Trinispheres is that yes while the 2nd and 3rd copies of all of these don't help much, the first copy of Magus and 3Ball actually does something on its own whereas AF doesn't.

...

I don't have any experience playing either deck, I only watched the video and am theorycrafting based on the rest of my experience with legacy / deckbuilding. All of these drawbacks I am mentioning were apparent multiple times and the 'combo payoff' (AF into Ancestral) happened only once in 18 games.

Obviously the whole point of the discussion is to determine which deck is better, if you want to play this deck just because you think it's more fun then go ahead.

A few more differences between the decks:

Monored stompy: Creature beatdown plan + MD Ensnaring Bridge can end up being a nonbo. This can be worked around, though: Quicksmith Rebel and Hazoret the Fervent are example creatures which still function somehow under a Bridge.
As foretold stompy: There are no creatures (other than SSG) you would draw into after landing a Bridge.

Monored stompy: Creatures can attack and block.
As foretold stompy: You are a goldfish in terms of creatures. But at the same time, you are blanking opponent's creature removal.

Monored stompy: There is no card filtering. Only extra "draws" (Sin Prodder, Chandra). Drawing into multiple Moons, Bridges, etc. can be redundant. Drawing multiple redundant lockpieces can even be harmful under a Bridge, because if you can't cast/get rid of all of them, the opponent is allowed to attack due to cards in hand. Exception case: the list is running Avaricious Dragon and/or Hazoret.
As foretold stompy: Jace TMS provides Brainstorm filtering, and the deck plays fetchlands to shuffle.

[Mackan]

Featured in the link below; Redundant copy of As Foretold.

https://twitter.com/Truckis123/status/879369141018349568

:-D

[KIP_NZ]

What if you just cut x4 As Foretold x4 Visions x4 Balance for x4 Show and Tell x8 Huge Wincon? Of course you can't play Emrakul/Grisel because it's a nonbo with Ensnaring Bridge but you could always use Form of the Dragon or Staff of Nin or some other similar big dumb thing (and in the late game these are also potentially still castable).


4x Show and Tell
4x Hive Mind
3x Pact of Negation
4x Pact of the Titan

Extra Pacts can be imprinted on Chrome Mox and plays around chalice pretty nicely too.

[Whitefaces]

Why are we cutting non-wincons for wincons, some of which do even less on their own than As Fortold!?

[mistercakes]

have you tried running any copies of wheel of fate

[KIP_NZ]

Why are we cutting non-wincons for wincons, some of which do even less on their own than As Fortold!?


We're not, I was just commenting about the idea of transforming into a Show n Tell deck.

[Redkid43]

How do you all feel about a green splash?

4 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 JTMS
4 Kiora, the Crashing Wave (I'll explain)

4 As Foretold
4 Restore Balance
4 Ancestral Visions

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
4 Ensnaring Bridge

4 Force of Will

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
8 Island

I feel like Kiora is a cool find for this deck. It works well with Bridge as it can snipe down things that could get through it, and the emblem is a good way to close out the game quickly once we land it.

[Mackan]

Glad to see this pile getting so much attention. It's a blast to play and I'm glad more people have experienced it!

@Redkid43
Kiora is a good card. I don't think it's close between her and Chandra though. There are certainly other good green cards (and black/White) so feel free to try it.
I'm currently looking for weak matchups/cards and there certainly are some (especially the deck itself ;-P) but I haven't found a good reason to play another color yet.

@mistercakes
I have not tested Wheel of fate. But I don't Think it's a good idea in legacy because of the number of free spells (mainly fow) that your opponent can draw off of it. A full hand from nowhere is super scary, too.

@everyone
I'm still not saying this deck is the best thing ever. And I agree with a lot of the naysayers that it's inconsistent. I think however that the powerlevel is absurd enough to make up for some of it. Our opponent has to spend every resource available during the early turns (play suboptimal cantrips, force of will anything, discard rather than play a delver etcetc) and for that reason the game often goes on for many turns (unless we sledgehammer them early). In a top-deck mode I think on average this deck will get more out of 2 blanks and 1 spell than a typical draw from our opponent. So drawing these blanks is "fine". If we do find gas it quickly spirals not only into us getting value from jace, balance, ancestral but also value from them not casting spells when we draw blood moon or chalice of the void. Our bombs has to be answered and are tough to answer outside disenchant/abrupt decay/kolaghen's command or some kind of counterspell. Blanking creature removal is a huge here. So while the deck is inconsistent it's not as inconsistent as you'd Think, if that makes any sense.

Yesterday I visited a friend and we streamed a League playing the deck. We mulliganed a lot and on top of that we played very, very poorly from time to time. We had a blast and somehow we still managed to 5-0 the League (!). I think that speaks for the powerlevel of the deck. You can find the video at his channel www.twitch.tv/yehspuhr

I'm looking to play either this or miracles at the end of the month at MKM Prague. If you are testing the deck please share your results :-)

[Whitefaces]

We're not, I was just commenting about the idea of transforming into a Show n Tell deck.

Sorry about that. In hindsight my comment was a bit too snappy, not my intention! Always good to get new ideas out there.


Glad to see this pile getting so much attention. It's a blast to play and I'm glad more people have experienced it!

@Redkid43
Kiora is a good card. I don't think it's close between her and Chandra though. There are certainly other good green cards (and black/White) so feel free to try it.
I'm currently looking for weak matchups/cards and there certainly are some (especially the deck itself ;-P) but I haven't found a good reason to play another color yet.

@mistercakes
I have not tested Wheel of fate. But I don't Think it's a good idea in legacy because of the number of free spells (mainly fow) that your opponent can draw off of it. A full hand from nowhere is super scary, too.

@everyone
I'm still not saying this deck is the best thing ever. And I agree with a lot of the naysayers that it's inconsistent. I think however that the powerlevel is absurd enough to make up for some of it. Our opponent has to spend every resource available during the early turns (play suboptimal cantrips, force of will anything, discard rather than play a delver etcetc) and for that reason the game often goes on for many turns (unless we sledgehammer them early). In a top-deck mode I think on average this deck will get more out of 2 blanks and 1 spell than a typical draw from our opponent. So drawing these blanks is "fine". If we do find gas it quickly spirals not only into us getting value from jace, balance, ancestral but also value from them not casting spells when we draw blood moon or chalice of the void. Our bombs has to be answered and are tough to answer outside disenchant/abrupt decay/kolaghen's command or some kind of counterspell. Blanking creature removal is a huge here. So while the deck is inconsistent it's not as inconsistent as you'd Think, if that makes any sense.

Yesterday I visited a friend and we streamed a League playing the deck. We mulliganed a lot and on top of that we played very, very poorly from time to time. We had a blast and somehow we still managed to 5-0 the League (!). I think that speaks for the powerlevel of the deck. You can find the video at his channel www.twitch.tv/yehspuhr

I'm looking to play either this or miracles at the end of the month at MKM Prague. If you are testing the deck please share your results :-)

The main downside of losing red is Blood Moon I think, maybe green gives us a similar option? Choke... :laugh: Chandra is really amazing in this deck too though so I think red is the best supplement colour. Maybe we could play white if there's some PWers that win through a bridge, and Armageddon!

Agree with mackan about the deck, and that league is absolutely hilarious. I won't spoil anything, but highly recommended viewing! There's a good chance I'll be joining him on the deck in Prague too. Feels like the perfect brew after a night out on the town to nurse a hangover.

I think our maindeck is very solid now, with a couple of slots up for debate. I like Dack Faydens in the main quite a lot, but it still needs to be tested more, it may not be high enough impact so doesn't fit out 'keep slamming must answers' plan. But the one mana cost lower, as well as filtering/discarding extra lands/uncastables for Bridge are big pros for him.

The sb is a bit harder. I think Force of Wills and Leyline of the Voids are slam dunks, and some sweepers like Pyroclasm or Kozileks Return. We're going to try Fiery Confluence next, and Abrade looks good when it comes out. The blue count for FoW vs combo is quite low though, considering trying a couple of Cliques, but maybe someone has a better idea for a blue anti combo card in a tappout shell?

[zangoasyl]

but maybe someone has a better idea for a blue anti combo card in a tappout shell?

I'm still on the flusterstorm train. Works with chalice@1 (at least for the copies) and possibly mindbreak trap...

[Whitefaces]

I'm still on the flusterstorm train. Works with chalice@1 (at least for the copies) and possibly mindbreak trap...

Fluster is nice, cool interaction with Chalice. I played Traps at our last monthly and they don't really address the problematic combo matchups I think, I'm really scared of Sneak Attack post board when they have access to bounce for Bridge for example.

[TLK]

Truckis did you 5-0 again? Saw your name today. I tested a few games with this list and I never seemed to want to cast Balance because it would blow up all my artifacts. :/ Most of the time it just rotted in my hand.

[Whitefaces]

Truckis did you 5-0 again? Saw your name today. I tested a few games with this list and I never seemed to want to cast Balance because it would blow up all my artifacts. :/ Most of the time it just rotted in my hand.

Restore Balance doesn't destroy artifacts :wink:

[TLK]

Restore Balance doesn't destroy artifacts :wink:

OMG wow lol. I need to learn to read. :cry:

[kombatkiwi]

I watched the league that you 5-0d and recorded at your friend's house and it was definitely a wild ride

M1 Delver
G1 Mull to 4
G2 Opponent forces AF, Moon resolves and your opponent concedes
G3 Turn 1 Chalice for 1, Turn 2 Chalice for 2, then Jace

M2 Elves
G1 Turn 2 Foretold + Ancestral, Then next turn another Ancestral, But opponent kills your PW with attackers and then kills all your permanents with Symbiote + RecSage
G2 Turn 3 As Foretold, turn 4 Jace + Balance, Somehow you play multiple Ancestral and multiple PW this game but all the PW die to attacks, eventually you find Bridge
G3 You topdeck Balance when you're dead on board and 2 turns later draw Chandra, then Ancestral

M3 Death and Taxes
G1 Turn 1 Chalice, Turn 3 Jace on empty board, turn 4 As Foretold, imprint/cast your whole hand, balance
G2 Turn 1 suspend gets blocked by Spirit of the Labyrinth and you don't do anything
G3 Turn 2 Chandra Turn 3 Jace, Jace gets Council's Judgmented but you have another one (this game goes super long (and is hilarious) and there are a couple of turns where your opponent has Flickerwisp on bridge as an out but it's pretty hard for White Weenie deck to beat double pw on turn 4

M4 Delver
G1 Turn 1 suspend, turn 3 double imprint cast your last card (Jace), gets Forced, there is an argument that with Delver and DRS in play your opponent should have let the Jace resolve and saved Force for the Ancestral, but Ancestral Resolves and draws the perfect 3 cards (Balance, Foretold, Bloodmoon). In response to Balance you get Bolted down to 1 but you have moon in play against your opponent's all-nonbasic manabase and in the 2 following turns you draw Chandra then Jace
G2 Opponent plays turn 1 waste on the play (no mulligan), you resolve turn 1 Chalice for 1, turn 2 Foretold Ancestral, opponent gets to 4 mana without playing a spell and you have another Ancestral and Jace in the meantime

M5 Delver
G1 Turn 1 Moon, turn 2 Chalice for 1, you almost still die to YP and Elementals because you can't get the Balance out of your hand for Ensnaring Bridge but on the critical turn you reveal As Foretold with the Chandra plus
G2 You play Defense Grid and Moon but with DRS your opponent has enough mana to Force the follow-up Chalice and then you brick and die to YP + Elementals
"Ok I'm shaving a Chandra, it's a Brazilian wax right out of the maindeck"
G3 Keep Volc EE Mox Jace Moon Balance Vision
Suspend turn 1
Opponent turn 1 volc, ponder
Draw chandra, pass
Opponent wasteland, Delver
Draw jace, Imprint jace, EE for 1
Opponent plays wasteland, Ancient grudges your Mox
Draw island, play it, pass
Opponent Usea, attack with 1/1
Visions comes off suspend and gets pyroblasted
Draw SSG
Opp EOT brainstorm
Delver flip reveal bolt
Opp fetches volc, attack (15)
Draw island, pass
Opp mainphase brainstorm, attack (12)
Main 2, Ponder
Eot you try to pop EE, gets stifled
Draw fetch, fetch mountain, play moon
Get attacked (8)
Draw Bridge, Exile SSG, Chandra, gets forced
Get attacked (5)
Draw As Foretold, play it, play balance
Draw land, play Jace
Opponent has 1 bolt in hand and puts you to 2 but you fateseal him out

I think in this league you might have cast 1 non-suspend card with As Foretold, I can sort of see the value of suspending ancestral e.g. in round 4 g1, but if it was just SNT+Emrakul it would have won you game 1 against Elves.
Everybody keeps saying that Balance is this crazy wipe but the only time it ever did anything more than a wrath was the game 1 where you annihilated death and taxes with it. (Although as a Wrath it was certainly very important in other games).
I don't think SNT + Grisel + Em is what you actually want, because of the Ensnaring Bridge wombo, and because there are situations where you're facing down 2+ creatures and Emrakul will not save you, and because it opens you up to being ruined by Karakas. Perhaps there is an alternative fatty/permanent that solves these problems (like Magmatic Force or something really off-the-wall).

I think the deck is decent and I wouldn't confidently say DS is better anymore but I still think that:
- You are only using As Foretold as Show and Tell for Wrath and Ancestral, why not use actual Show and Tell for something super powerful
- 'But I can suspend Ancestral, unlike a 10 mana card' isn't a great argument when you have no discard or counterspells to protect it and it resolves less than half the time when you try it

If you want to keep the suspend plan then maybe you want to play 1-2 copies of Tolaria West, which finds both suspend cards and Chalice. I think a change of -1 Balance +1 Tolaria could be a good start:
- Generally you don't need multiple balances per game, chaining them one-into-the-other doesn't make sense like it does with visions
- Generally it's fine to not balance on turn 1 or turn 2 and you take some time to set it up
- Having extra mana sources instead of balance would have been good a couple of times
(The fact that it's not good if you reveal it on a Chandra plus and you can't imprint it on Chrome Mox are the main downsides I think)

Overall the video was super entertaining and if you record any more videos in a pair like this I would definitely watch.

[Whitefaces]

Some love from Andrea Mengucci (https://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-mengucci-legacy-as-foretold/)

[genuine fugazi]

Can you use As Foretold to cast spells exiled by Chandra, Torch of Defiance's first ability?

[Whitefaces]

Can you use As Foretold to cast spells exiled by Chandra, Torch of Defiance's first ability?

Yep! As long as it meets the requirements of As Fortold (Eg you couldn't cast a Jace with As Fortold with 3 or less counters).

Unfortunately it looks like the videos from Channel Fireball have been taken down. I only skimmed over them, but I think some audio was corrupted. Quite a shame.

[genuine fugazi]

Yep! As long as it meets the requirements of As Fortold (Eg you couldn't cast a Jace with As Fortold with 3 or less counters).
Cool, thanks.

Faced this deck twice in a row while going through a league with Tin Fins. Wish I had Serenity in my SB :wink:

[walked]

Alright; you guys have my convinced to try this out. All I needed to pick up was the playset of As Foretold and that seemed like a card thats going to get broken one day anyways, so that's an easy buy.

Is there any streaming of this around to watch? I know the CFB stuff was taken down.

[Mackan]

Alright; you guys have my convinced to try this out. All I needed to pick up was the playset of As Foretold and that seemed like a card thats going to get broken one day anyways, so that's an easy buy.

Is there any streaming of this around to watch? I know the CFB stuff was taken down.

Me and my friend streamed a league to a 5-0 result on twitch. A youtube video can be found here; https://youtu.be/bymwHhHIJHg

I will occasionally stream at twitch.tv/truckis123

prob going live now.

[Whitefaces]

Faced this deck twice in a row while going through a league with Tin Fins. Wish I had Serenity in my SB :wink:

Funny you say that, we've been joking that we'll play 'Serenity Miracles' to beat this :tongue:

[procobrito]

Serenity doesn't help that much since tgis work with 0 counters, right?

Enviado de meu SM-G900MD usando Tapatalk

[genuine fugazi]

Serenity doesn't help that much since tgis work with 0 counters, right?
You must be thinking of Solemnity.

[procobrito]

You must be thinking of Solemnity.

ops, my bad

[procobrito]

The deck looks really fun, congrats;.

Bottled Cloister couldn't be a nice add against discard and with esnaring bridge?

Or Academy Ruins to recover artifact (aka Engineered Explosives) or protect you against extraction? Tormod's Crypt could be an option against extraction too, right? The Tabernacle and Inventors' Fair looks nice too but they don't add much with blood moon in play.

What do you think about Lotus Vale at later game? This could stax even more with balance... well in fact this interact really really bad with blood moon too.

Edit: another thing that would be really cool instead of defensive grip: In the Eye of Chaos, since your only sorcerer and instant cost 0, and this protect you agaisnt storm, burn and all the rest... the only way to this deck be even cooler is if you put Invoke Prejudice too, lol.

[KIP_NZ]

G2-3, how the heck do we beat a Chalice 0? I'm wondering if 1-2 Ancient Grudge's should be in board & maybe a solo Tropical Island in the 75?

[procobrito]

I think ingot chewer or fiery confluence would be better in this deck.

Words of War could be a win condition? Looks nice with Jace or Vision when you don't need more cards in hand

Parallax Tide would be funny too, removing your own lands before hit the target with balance lol. But this is probably way to slow for legacy.

Sunken Hope could work as a worse blue The Abyss in this deck? I guess this is a bad idea against "enter the battlefield" creatures.

[lime]

Anyone playing this who can share some recent updates? Thinking of trying out the deck, as it looks really sweet (perhaps not great, but really sweet).

[Whitefaces]

Anyone playing this who can share some recent updates? Thinking of trying out the deck, as it looks really sweet (perhaps not great, but really sweet).

Mackan and myself are still working on it. The MD has mostly stayed the same as I think that's very solid, but the sb has needed a lot of work. We've been trying Fiery Confluences which have been good, but I think Abrade is going to be exceptional in the deck, need to grab a few online. Defense Grids have been overperforming, Force of Wills not.

Mackan has been playing it a lot more than me though, I'll let him chime in soon :smile:

[procobrito]

Surgical extraction woudn't be a nice add? You can get your first spell countered by a FoW, but you'll remove all 4 copies from the game. Help against storm, reanimator, lands and so

Enviado de meu SM-G900MD usando Tapatalk

[lime]

Mackan and myself are still working on it. The MD has mostly stayed the same as I think that's very solid, but the sb has needed a lot of work. We've been trying Fiery Confluences which have been good, but I think Abrade is going to be exceptional in the deck, need to grab a few online. Defense Grids have been overperforming, Force of Wills not.

Mackan has been playing it a lot more than me though, I'll let him chime in soon :smile:

Thanks for the response! Abrade does seem like a really good addition to the deck.

I imagine that combo can be quite rough if you don't get to resolve an early Chalice. But I guess Sneak and Show must be among the worst, as even Chalice is not always that effective, they can play their own Blood Moons, and bridge will probably be bounced if they get to draw with Griselbrand. Well, I guess that's what Take Possession is for.

[Munchyman]

My take on As Foretold deck.

Turbo Stasis!!





2 Jace, the Mind Sculpture
4 Stasis
4 As Foretold
1 Land Tax
1 Kismet
1 Frozen Aether
4 Howling Mine
1 Crucible of the Worlds
1 Feldon's Cane
1 Zuran Orb
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Restore Balance
3 Boomerang
2 Recall
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
3 Tundra
3 Islands
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta

SB
X Black Vise
X Ensare
X Arcane Laboratory

[Mackan]

Streamed another league with my friend Jesper. Was a good run again with some new things in the deck!

[H]

Streamed another league with my friend Jesper. Was a good run again with some new things in the deck!

Can you post the new list?

[Whitefaces]

Can you post the new list?

Here's (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/159857663) a link to the VOD.

[H]

Here's (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/159857663) a link to the VOD.

Thanks, I tried to find that before and somehow it didn't want to work then.

[lime]

Thanks for the stream, it was really entertaining to watch. Unfortunate that the Burning Wish plan didn't work out, though it was expected. It seems to me that we should definitively include four copies of Restore Balance in the main, as the main appeal of As Foretold is playing broken spells for free that we couldn't otherwise play.

I see that you cut the Dack Fayden from the board, is that because you didn't like him in this deck? It seems to me that he could fit quite nicely, as he provides a good way of getting rid of useless cards in our hand (in order to hide behind a Bridge). Have anyone tried Dack in the main even?

Also, as a side note, I tried the deck on xmage, and it is absolutely hilarious to play. One the highlights was beating burn with a turn one Chalice, followed up with a turn two As Foretold into Restore Balance with no cards in hand. The Mind Twist mode of Restore Balance also allowed me to win against Storm and Sneak and Show. I will probably get the deck in paper and bring it to some tournaments : )

[compacta_d]

Is there a reason everyone seems to use spirit guides instead of lotus petal?

Petal would let you As Foretold on turn 1. Coupled with the other acceleration you can discard your opponents hand with Restore Balance rather quickly.

[lime]

Is there a reason everyone seems to use spirit guides instead of lotus petal?

Petal would let you As Foretold on turn 1. Coupled with the other acceleration you can discard your opponents hand with Restore Balance rather quickly.

Good question, but I think that if we cut the Spirit Guides we will probably not have enough cards to pitch to Chrome Mox.

[lime]

Anyone still playing this deck? I've not played that much lately, but I plan on trying this out again. Would be nice to hear if there are any updates.

Anyway, I will get back with results once I have some to report.

[OlyForce]

I've been playing this deck locally and I just love it. Have taken it to our local weekly proxy-allowed event twice now.

The first week, made it to the finals through Reanimator Depths (leyline of the void and bridge did great work here), BUG midrange (bridge again doing work), a vial-smasher deck, and then lost to a bant stoneblade deck with planeswalkers in the finals.

The second week, I beat death and taxes pretty handily, then lost to a BUG leovold/planeswalker deck, then lost to grixis pyromancer.

The bant player I lost to got a gideon, ally of zendikar out, which was problematic, and the BUG deck got a Liliana The Last Hope out, which was also problematic. Basically planeswalkers can be very problematic for us it seems.:cry:

There's been times where I was getting killed through a bridge, chalice, and moon with a deathrite shaman gobbling up spells.... but that's uncommon since we have outs to him (Jace & Chandra).

I heard people kicking the tires on Abrade in the board instead of Force, I only have 1 so I gave it a try, it did some good work killing deathrites and Leovolds post-board.

[lime]

Great to hear that someone else is still playing the deck!

I've only tried the deck irl once, which was at our local monthly legacy. Unfortunately I got a bye, so only got to play 3 matches, going 2-1. I won against BG Depths (they really don't want to face a deck with Moons and Bridges main) and Shardless BUG, and then lost to Infect. I was actually quite unlucky against Infect, and had a lot or turns to draw action, but only saw lands. All in all I was actually a bit surprised that the deck felt as strong as it did.

Planeswalkers are indeed problematic, which I've discovered when playing on xmage. I guess that our only hope is to land our own planeswalkers as well, and just race them. Chandra can also keep opposing walkers in check with her +1.

Abrade is probably quite good, but I'm a bit uncertain whether we shouldn't just play more copies of Fiery Confluence instead. It's just such a strong card, and we shouldn't have any problems casting it in this deck. So right now I'm leaning towards 2 Fiery Confluence and 1 Abrade in the board.

Another issue I've been thinking about is whether we should really play 4 copies of Jace. Jace is obviously great, but a recurring problem has been to try to hide behind a bridge while getting brainstorm-locked due to the inability to fetch (due to Blood Moon). So perhaps it would be good to switch one Jace for a copy of Dack Fayden, who is quite good at getting rid of useless cards. Thoughts on that?

[Mackan]

Hi guys and gals. Sorry I haven't been active on the source for a while. Truth is I haven't been active playing magic at all. Nothing really interests me at the moment, which is weird since I've been playing every day for years until now...

So back on topic;
@Burning wish was cute but not great. I think it's better in a deck with cantrips as the toolbox aspect of it wasn't really there anyway. It can only find one of the two combo pieces (restore balance/ancestral vision but not As Foretold) which makes it unreliable. Having answers to chalice of the void for zero, Telemin Performance, Pyroclasm etc is good but didn't come up enough to be worth it. Paying 2 mana for a wish is also a lot when you need to get lockpieces out asap.

@Dack Fayden is not bad but more of a metacall I think. I cut him for Fiery Confluence as a way to deal with artifacts but also as an Answer to planeswalkers (which the deck really struggles against). 4 mana is a lot though. Those soon became Abrade which is a very good card in general but not an answer to Jace... I haven't really solved the planeswalker issue. I tried Chaos Warp and Keranos but neither were great. Whitefaces played Dack Fayden maindeck and liked him.

@Lotus Petal. The chrome mox aspect is what makes it worse than SSG. I don't know if we can afford to play some Petals on top of the other acceleration but it seems worse than SSG/chrome mox.

@4 Jace. The deck is kinda clunky but for the same reason I don't think burning wish is good enough I don't want to shave Jaces (for the risk of drawing multiples). Flexibility comes at the cost of mana and with this deck you abuse the fact that you have a lot of mana and the most broken things to spend it on.

[lime]

Hi Mackan, nice to see you back in the thread.

Quite plausible comments on all of the issues I think. I will probably try one Dack Fayden in the main, and perhaps be content with one copy of Fiery Confluence in the board. Abrade is not that impressive, but the flexibility may be worth it.

On the topic of combo, is the current opinion that Flusterstorm is the best option? It's a bit unfortunate that our reliance on casting spells for free makes it impossible to use some of the other lock pieces (like Trinisphere), but that's the price we have to pay.

[claulis]

Here is my current list:
https://imgur.com/sa7dZJV


I haven't play that many games with the deck maybe 30 or so, but it is super fun. I think that since we are in the stompy-esque archetype we need more moon effects, I was running 3 magus, I would like to run 4 but I cant cut anything else.

In:
+3 Magus of the Moon

Out:
-1 Jace
-1 Chandra
-1 Bridge

And because this deck is so fun I added a fun card:

In:
+1 Wheel of Fate

Out:
-1 Magus of the Moon

I was watching a Streamer stream this deck and one of the viewers recommended adding Cascade Bluffs, this card has been nothing but great in the deck, I think 1 of is right too.

I also agree Plainswalkers are problematic with the deck, maybe we should add Chaos warp in the sideboard? I run 3x Chaos Warp in my Bloodmoon Stompy SB.

[Whitefaces]

For opposing PWers we now have Sorcerous Spyglass from Ixalan.

[frogger42]

Hey! This is me!

As Foretold Stax / Control (https://youtu.be/fbiFmBP4Xbg)

It was a weekly, and I went 2-1. I somehow won against Infect, which can be an awful MU. I lost 80% vs Infect on the Bridge plan, and rightly so. It is a bad MU; P Fire makes it maybe split. I lost to Sneak and Show, another horrible MU, but when you don’t run Bridge. I got one off of Show but got Release the Ants’d out of the game.

P Fire here kills Thalia, ya know. I’ve played other weeklies and Zuran Orb is a champ vs non-blue strategies (I Geddoned a Nic Fit player into sadness).


I'm still super retooling this deck. The List a week ago:

4 Chrome Mox
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Island
1 Mountain
4 Tolaria West
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Volcanic Island
1 Karakas

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Punishing Fire
4 As Foretold
4 Intuition
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Ancestral Vision
3 Restore Balance
4 Force of Will


SB:
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Dack Fayden
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Zuran Orb
1 Engineered Explosives
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 I forget

[tsabo_tavoc]

frogger42, I like your innovation, especially the Tolaria West tech! The list looks pretty optimised as well. I guess the sideboard slots are Blood Moon, or you don't need them at all? Do you ever board out the As Foretold plan,

[Mackan]

Thanks for sharing the list and the video! I really like what you did there and will test it later if I can get the cards on modo again.
Could you explain your choices and your experience playing the deck?:)

[frogger42]

frogger42, I like your innovation, especially the Tolaria West tech! The list looks pretty optimised as well. I guess the sideboard slots are Blood Moon, or you don't need them at all? Do you ever board out the As Foretold plan

I've played it for 4 weeks and have never sided out As Foretold. That said, I haven't sided in Blood Moon, but I tend to face Sneak and Show a lot (bad deck for it!) and BUG hasn't made an appearance at the shop in a while. The "I Forget" was Blood Moon x3 - I forgot because I never sided them in.

So I've mostly played Stompy (Chalice - Aggro) and Stax (Chalice - Control). My experience with Stax specifically is this - Thalia: get rekd. That one card slows down every prison piece, threat, and mana acceleration in the deck. Punishing Fire is the best way to deal with Thalia, as it can hit Mom and recur to kill Thalia next turn. I have a lot of experience running P Fire, and I think it's the best Stax piece since Chalice of the Void. Especially with Dack Fayden ;)

My experience with the deck is limited to about a month, but I LOVE Balance. The toughest thing about it is, even if you run white (which I can't seem to get to work), its Suspend 6 makes it totally worthless. It's really a combo piece with AF, which is super super awkward. Combo-wise, you're probably better off casting Show and Tell. That's what it feels like sometimes.

That said, you're way more resilient, and your threat density is high. You don't rely on combo to win, but your combo gets you VERY far ahead. 6 Planeswalkers + Intuition leaves a lot of finishers, and P Fire is my personal favorite removal for a slow, grindy m-f- deck. Opposing Planeswalkers are very tough on the Bridge + Blood Moon plan, especially with a super low threat density. P Fire also deals with them.

I only side in Bridge vs Cheaty decks, Sneak and Show, anything with a 20/20, Rean, etc. Even then, I want something more proactive to smash face, and that might end up being Venser x3, esp to combo with Karakas. I'm a firm believer that no prison plan is perfect, no one ever gets fully locked out of the game; and that the best defense is a strong offence. Even in prison. You need to close the game out as soon as possible. This has always been my experience with Stax and Stompy.

Right now I'm shaving a few things to try out Burning Wish, which flexes the MD really well. 3-4 more copies of your powerhouse Suspend cards, plus some serious SB outs in the MD. The biggest problem is your access to playable GY hate (it's Reminisce currently... yuck).

Thanks for the Qs! I've been doing okayish with it, got some 2-1s and a 1-2 last night. I think it still needs some tinkering.

[frogger42]

Video vs Grixis Phoenix:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5Q8CnGHhkGU