[Deck] Two Green

[morgan_coke]

First off, this is flat out @Barook's idea. I'm just posting it because I came up with the awesome name - and I really love the concept. The name references the casting cost of the main spells in the deck. 2G.

The basic idea is to use Ranumap Excavator and Azusa, Lost but Seeking to pull off complete land annihilation on your opponent, while slowing them down with lock pieces.

So, here's a tentative list and some thoughts on it. Totally still developing, so feel free to share ideas and comments.

Creatures (17)
4x Azusa, Lost but Seeking
4x Ranumap Excavator
4x Tireless Tracker
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
1x Wurmcoil Engine

Search/Filter (10)
3x Sylvan Library
3x Realms Uncharted
4x Green Sun's Zenith

Artifacts (8)
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond

Lands (25)
4x Ancient Tomb
3x City of Traitors
4x Wasteland
1x Ghost Quarter
4x Forest
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Thespian's Stage
1x Dark Depths
1x Inventor's Fair
1x Horizon Canopy

Sideboard
3x Krosan Grip
4x Trinisphere
4x Obstinate Baloth
4x Ravenous Trap

I'm honestly not sure 4x Wasteland is the right call since the deck just plans to re-use the same lands over and over again. Replaced some of what would normally be basics with fetches to take advantage of Ranumap, Sylvan Library, and Tireless Tracker. Realms Uncharted is a bit of a wildcard, but it's a shuffle, it gets you a lot of lands, you're not super picky about whether or not they're in your hand or GY, and it lets you run some sweet singleton/combos, like the Stage/DD, Horizon Canopy, and Inventor's Fair. Decklist probably needs a Thragtusk or something maindeck for lifegain alongside the Wurmcoil Engine. With Inventor's Fair, adding a single Crucible of Worlds as a backup might be a good idea, but maybe just in the sideboard. Kind of feel like some Smuggler's Copter or Trinisphere, maybe Thorn of Amethyst.

Anyway, like I said, credit for the idea goes to Barook. I'm just trying to sketch out what a decklist might look like. 11 shuffles might not be enough for Library, but Realms pulls a massive 4 lands from your deck, and the longer the game goes, the thicker the GSZ's pile up in your deck.

[mistercakes]

this deck is going to want some non-zero number of loam.

[Claymore]

Volrath's Stronghold or Haunted Fengraf (to stay mono green) seems it could be good to keep up your creatures.

If you want mainboard lifegain, just use Courser of Kruphix.

If you can maintain positive land count with a consistent Azusa, Rishaden Port or Tabernacle would be useful, especially since with Tabernacle you could get to flawless victory state. It's also the tits against Pyromancers. Delver decks just shut down when they get hit with a Tabernacle trigger.

[morgan_coke]

this deck is going to want some non-zero number of loam.

No, it really doesn't. Crucible and Loam deck both recur lands from the graveyard, but they work on fundamentally different axes.

[square_two]

I'm planning on attempting something similar but with Trinisphere and Smokestack. Possibly Bridge as well - though I'm unsure about how that dynamic would play out.

[Purple Blood]

I'm planning on attempting something similar but with Trinisphere and Smokestack. Possibly Bridge as well - though I'm unsure about how that dynamic would play out.

I've been testing something with Stack, Armageddon, Exploration, and the creature package in the OP plus Renegade Rallier and BoP. Nut draw is turn two Smokestack, turn three Geddon resulting in a scoop. I'm not really sure if this is anything but a casual deck though. It's hell of a lot of fun either way!

[Barook]

Posted this in the Sylvan Plug thread before, but the list is probably too different to be in the same deck:

3 City of Traitors
3 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Karakas
1 Bayou
2 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Forest
1 Misty Rainforest

4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
2 Umezawa's Jitte

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
3 Ramunap Excavator
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth

1 Sylvan Library
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Living Wish

Sideboard: 14/15
1 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Ramunap Excavator
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Minister of Pain
1 Walking Ballista
1 Thragtusk
1 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Containment Priest
1 open slot

This list is purely theorycrafted without actual testing against an opponent yet (still waiting for the Cockatrice update).

Living Wish is there for more consistency and to fetch the missing combo pieces. There are so many cards that could be included, so proper testing needs to be done what actually sticks.

I reallly like the idea of Tabernacle as tutor target - destroying all their lands into Tabernacle should do a proper clean-up job against anything they could throw against you, including TNN.

Side note: DRS probably doesn't fit the deck (nonbo with Chalice @1 and you don't want to exile your precious lands). Jitte might also be less stellar since most of the creatures aren't really good attackers. That might clear up some room for other stuff.

[P210]

If you want to make a green prison deck, I also would suggest Smokestack. Too sad Braids, Cabal Minion isn't green, and BB is heavy for a splash...^^
Anyway for a prison deck, Trinisphere and is a must for the mainboard.
Further I'm not sold for Realms Uncharted, true it finds lands, but seems rather slow. Needs to be tested...

[Barook]

If you want to make a green prison deck, I also would suggest Smokestack. Too sad Braids, Cabal Minion isn't green, and BB is heavy for a splash...^^
Anyway for a prison deck, Trinisphere and is a must for the mainboard.
Further I'm not sold for Realms Uncharted, true it finds lands, but seems rather slow. Needs to be tested...
Smokestack is slow and seems kinda meh without the CoW Naga.

I might cut the splash for Black, DRS and the Jitte for a second main deck KotR, a Horizon Canopy and a Tabernacle, with a Tabernacle and KotR in the wish board slots, maybe even a Canopy in the wish board for mana fixing/getting a draw engine online with Naga.

[P210]

Smokestack is slow and seems kinda meh without the CoW Naga.

I might cut the splash for Black, DRS and the Jitte for a second main deck KotR, a Horizon Canopy and a Tabernacle, with a Tabernacle and KotR in the wish board slots, maybe even a Canopy in the wish board for mana fixing/getting a draw engine online with Naga.

Why should someone play it without the Naga? You need something to break the symmetry, usually Crucible of Worlds or a token generator. In a green shell we would have the Naga which is tutorable via Green Sun's Zenith. No idea if it's worth it. But you need something to get rid of other permanents than lands, and lands if Wasteland is not drawn.

I don't think Tabernacle is a good idea, since many of our nonland permanents are creatures...

Edit: Ticking up Smokestack up to 2-3 counters should be fun with Azusa, Lost but Seeking...^^

[morgan_coke]

I really like the Living Wish idea. If you're going to go with Tutors, go all out. But I still like Realms Uncharted. Also, I'm not sure that KotR really does anything worth doing. The more I think about it, the more I think any heavy non-green splash might be a bad idea. Green/Colorless/White is basically a three color deck already, but given Karakas and Horizon Canopy, it's an exceptionally easy one to pull off. I also really like the idea of making this more of a "stompy 5c Eternal Garden" type deck. So maybe something like:

Lands
4x Ancient Tomb
2x City of Traitors
3x Wasteland
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Karakas
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Sea Gate Wreckage
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Windswept Heath
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Nomad Stadium
1x Savannah

Basic Lands
3x Forest
2x Snow Covered Forest

Artifacts
4x Mox Diamond
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Trinisphere

Removal
3x Spatial Distortion

Draw/Tutor
3x Living Wish
4x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Realms Uncharted
2x Sylvan Library

Creatures
3x Ranumap Excavator
2x Asuza, Lost but Seeking
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Tireless Tracker
1x Obstinate Baloth
1x Scavenging Ooze

Sideboard
Wish Targets
1x Ranumap Excavator
1x Asuza, Lost but Seeking
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Loaming Shaman
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1x Wasteland

Regular Board
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Dark Depths
1x Thespian's Stage
3x Obstinate Baloth
3x Beast Within

I really like Nomad Stadium as a recurring source of lifegain. Not sure if Spatial Distortion will be worth it or not, but it's a removal spell in our "colors" that dodges Chalice, and kills most early threats. Big fan of Tabernacle+LD and 3sphere. Maybe Sea Gate Wreckage should be Inventor's Fair? The board section of "wish targets" gives you your combo pieces, graveyard hate, artifact/enchant removal, and a solution to creatures, which is about as good as you're going to do with it. I guess Revoker is also an option if you feel like the need to wish for a 'walker answer is necessary.

[Barook]

I really like the Living Wish idea. If you're going to go with Tutors, go all out. But I still like Realms Uncharted. Also, I'm not sure that KotR really does anything worth doing. The more I think about it, the more I think any heavy non-green splash might be a bad idea. Green/Colorless/White is basically a three color deck already, but given Karakas and Horizon Canopy, it's an exceptionally easy one to pull off.

I really like Nomad Stadium as a recurring source of lifegain. Not sure if Spatial Distortion will be worth it or not, but it's a removal spell in our "colors" that dodges Chalice, and kills most early threats. Big fan of Tabernacle+LD and 3sphere. Maybe Sea Gate Wreckage should be Inventor's Fair? The board section of "wish targets" gives you your combo pieces, graveyard hate, artifact/enchant removal, and a solution to creatures, which is about as good as you're going to do with it. I guess Revoker is also an option if you feel like the need to wish for a 'walker answer is necessary.
Revoker also disables DRS.

I'm not sold on Sea Gate Wreckage - it just seems so expensive and clunky when Horizon Canopy and Tracker provide much better draw engines.

When building the deck, we should keep the following things in mind, as they might be problematic:

- Graveyard hate, especially DRS
- Delver
- TNN
- the high self-inflicted life loss from Tomb, Canopy and repeated fetchlands activations
- the need of proper creature removal

I'm eager to see how good Tabernacle is at handling creatures once online testing is possible.

Random side note:
I just realized Tireless Tracker can provide extra permanents to sac for Smockstack. Saccing the clues this way provides a free way to pump Tracker due to the way its worded. That might be interesting for people who want to pursue a Smokestack route and gives an alternative to break the symmetry aside from Excavator. While I'm not a fan of Smokestack personally, I encourage testing different builds to maximize our chance to find the good stuff.

Edit:
With access to KotR and a Living Wish board, why don't we run the Grove of the Burnwillows/Punishing Fire? It would make dealing with Planeswalkers and those pesky creatures much easier. Red mana shouldn't be a problem and I don't think that we give a shit about their life totals since the end goal is depriving them of their ability to play Magic. I admit that 3sphere and PF is a bit of a nonbo, though. Bonus points for throwing in Kavu Predator for shit and giggles. :tongue:

[apple713]

Revoker also disables DRS.

Edit:
With access to KotR and a Living Wish board, why don't we run the Grove of the Burnwillows/Punishing Fire? It would make dealing with Planeswalkers and those pesky creatures much easier. Red mana shouldn't be a problem and I don't think that we give a shit about their life totals since the end goal is depriving them of their ability to play Magic. I admit that 3sphere and PF is a bit of a nonbo, though. Bonus points for throwing in Kavu Predator for shit and giggles. :tongue:

at some point you are doing TOO much. In doing so it breaks apart the decks central focus and actually becomes weaker. I think doing so with grove would start to turn the deck into a bag version or RG lands / Aggro Loam.

[rufus]

I recall Spawnwrithe can take games over very quickly and fits the CC theme. I'm also a little surprised by the lack of Elvish Spirit Guides in the later lists.

[Barook]

at some point you are doing TOO much. In doing so it breaks apart the decks central focus and actually becomes weaker. I think doing so with grove would start to turn the deck into a bag version or RG lands / Aggro Loam.
Yeah, I came to the same conclusion after trying it out. I'm probably running a few MD Ballistas instead. Stilll trying to figure out how I could squeeze more removal in aside from Ballista.

Edit: Maybe something Polukranos (very expensive) or Ulvenwald Tracker (bad on its own, clashes with Chalice @1 when drawn) as GSZ targets. In terms of grindiness, Master of the Wild Hunt would probably be the best pick.

@rufus: Space is premium and Mox Diamond fits the theme better due to land discard and being able to provide a permanent, multi-colored mana source. I don't miss ESG which is also a bad topdeck.

[Bosque]

Edit: Maybe something Polukranos (very expensive) or Ulvenwald Tracker (bad on its own, clashes with Chalice @1 when drawn) as GSZ targets. In terms of grindiness, Master of the Wild Hunt would probably be the best pick.

I've used both Master of the Wild Hunt and Ulvenwald Tracker in green stax decks before, and both were always killed on sight by opponents if they were able to do so. When they fail to find removal, both can dominate the game very effectively. I'd lean towards Master.

[apple713]

Yeah, I came to the same conclusion after trying it out. I'm probably running a few MD Ballistas instead. Stilll trying to figure out how I could squeeze more removal in aside from Ballista.

Edit: Maybe something Polukranos (very expensive) or Ulvenwald Tracker (bad on its own, clashes with Chalice @1 when drawn) as GSZ targets. In terms of grindiness, Master of the Wild Hunt would probably be the best pick.

@rufus: Space is premium and Mox Diamond fits the theme better due to land discard and being able to provide a permanent, multi-colored mana source. I don't miss ESG which is also a bad topdeck.

What is it that you are trying to remove? Maybe you dont need to remove it and can do one of the following. Overpower it, race it, gain life through it, or prevent damage.

Also, Glacial chasm should be in the deck certainly as a 1 of. Considering you dont need to pay its upkeep cost ever.

ground seal seems like it should be somewhere in the list becuase of your concern of removal and necessity to recur from the graveyard. It is two sided and will help your opponent.

If you are really trying to TAX your opponent, ideally you'd want more white than anything because of whites overwhelming ability to tax your opponents resources (see Death & TAXES). There are several resources the deck (D&T) doesn't use because its more aggro than prison control.

[morgan_coke]

Just spent some time going through the old 5c Eternal Garden thread looking at the debates and decklists it had. One thing I noticed is that creature based plans pretty much folded to The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale+Glacial Chasm. The other thing was that the deck used lots of colored mana and tried to beat combo/tempo by bringing in Chalices+3Spheres. Obviously, just mainboarding those and 2 mana lands with fewer colors is a better plan vs. the field.

So I think we want to look at around 25-27 lands given that Tabernacle and Chasm don't produce mana. It's also worth noting that Tomb does Damage, which Chasm stops.

Also, what are peoples thoughts on Crystal Vein vs. City of Traitors? City is more explosive early, but Vein doesn't hinder our development quite as much.

What do you guys think of something like this as a manabase:

4x Ancient Tomb
3x City of Traitors
3x Wasteland
1x Glacial Chasm
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1x Karakas
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Nomad Stadium
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Savannah
3x Forest
2x Snow-Covered Forest
4x G/x Fetchlands
1x Dryad Arbor

That's 27 lands, which after the base 11 artifacts (4 Mox/Chalice, 3 3sphere) leaves us 22 slots for tutors and duders. Say 12 tutors/draw spells (4 GSZ, 8 Library/Realms/Wish) and 10 dudes (5 combo, 2-3 tracker, couple targets)

This gives the deck a plan vs. swarm: Tabernacle, vs. combo/tempo: 3sphere/chalice, vs. burn: chasm/stadium That seems like a couple of pretty strong plans vs. the vast majority of the field. Thoughts? Stuff I'm overlooking?

[Dice_Box]

So Stax with tutors? Colour me intersted. I like that idea a lot.

Issues I can see from playing Stax, you do not have a way to force through damage after a board is flooded. Say with a young Pyro. For Stax that is not an issue because you put down Bridge and then Tabernacle, but you are looking to find other ways of doing that. (For the builds that do not have access to Tab.) I think you have a great idea to start with otherwise. I love the idea of somehow fitting Gitrog in here, even if he does not fit.

As a Lands player, Tracker, in multiples, is a fucking train wreck for the other guy. When you start cracking clues and then building massive fuckers that must be answered, that is great fun. I would suggest having one in the side if your going to Wish as well. Tracker lets you get away with losing your Graveyard to something like a RIP by powering though it.

I might mess around with this as a more "Stax with Tutors" idea. I like it.

[Barook]

Just spent some time going through the old 5c Eternal Garden thread looking at the debates and decklists it had. One thing I noticed is that creature based plans pretty much folded to The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale+Glacial Chasm. The other thing was that the deck used lots of colored mana and tried to beat combo/tempo by bringing in Chalices+3Spheres. Obviously, just mainboarding those and 2 mana lands with fewer colors is a better plan vs. the field.

So I think we want to look at around 25-27 lands given that Tabernacle and Chasm don't produce mana. It's also worth noting that Tomb does Damage, which Chasm stops.

Also, what are peoples thoughts on Crystal Vein vs. City of Traitors? City is more explosive early, but Vein doesn't hinder our development quite as much.

What do you guys think of something like this as a manabase:

4x Ancient Tomb
3x City of Traitors
3x Wasteland
1x Glacial Chasm
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1x Karakas
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Nomad Stadium
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Savannah
3x Forest
2x Snow-Covered Forest
4x G/x Fetchlands
1x Dryad Arbor

That's 27 lands, which after the base 11 artifacts (4 Mox/Chalice, 3 3sphere) leaves us 22 slots for tutors and duders. Say 12 tutors/draw spells (4 GSZ, 8 Library/Realms/Wish) and 10 dudes (5 combo, 2-3 tracker, couple targets)

This gives the deck a plan vs. swarm: Tabernacle, vs. combo/tempo: 3sphere/chalice, vs. burn: chasm/stadium That seems like a couple of pretty strong plans vs. the vast majority of the field. Thoughts? Stuff I'm overlooking?
I like the idea of Chasm, especially sitting behind it and building up a huge Ballista to snipe your opponent to death. But with we want to go with the recursive plan for it, dealing with GY hate is mandatory. And DRS' lifeloss can still get around this plan.

Crystal Vein is worth testing.

I'm not really sold on Nomad Stadium, at least in my variant of the deck, as it would have trouble to reach threshold by itself.

[Fatal]

I like idea of the deck but to be something better then tier 3 pet deck it needs:

1. Fix combo MU: ANT, and Sneak/Omni, Reanimator

Some solutions: list with Shaman, Gaddock (white splash is probably must have), sb Ooze problem is with sneak/Omni. Green doesn't provide proper answer to fast S&T to Emmy, Revoker would help vs Sneak. Probably Karakas is must have under Living Wish, Krosan Grips and Sage would help against Omni. We can also goes to Stax route with Thorn of Amethyst but it also slow down GSZ and Wishes.

2. Fix Delver MU: playing against on draw we need cheap effective removal, 1cmc no-bo with Chalice, so we need 2 mana removal.

Ideas: Punishing Fire looks ok, but it's based on gy - I don't like all strategies based on single point since it's easy to disrupt, Other options are Blessed Alliance (not a best, fragile, can't deal with DRS) - I like here spartial, but It doesn't kill fatties like Angler which will resolve for sure.

3. Walkers
Since we Blow lands quite late (turn 2-3 not earlier), we must be prepared for resolved walkers:
- Liliana of the Veil
- Jace
Punishing fire is good here

4. Elves - this MU seems abyssal, Chalice & Trini is temporary solution until they smash them with repeatable Sage.

5. TNN looks problematic
Smokestack can be interesting here, can also work nice with vs walkers and has good synergy with deck should be included.

6. After sideboard weak points:
Since combo based on GY we can be sure that opponent put some hosers, since BR Reanimator is still around we can met fallowing cards:
- Deathrite Shaman (also G1) - answer removal is must have, ground seal is useless since it doesn't protect against effects like leyline or rest in peace, don't forget that we have tiny SB thanks to wish targets.
- Leyline of the Void - 2-3 mana artifact/enchantment removal, Sage under Wish for sure, but connecting with Omni MU I would put Krosan grips (2-3).
- Fearie Macabre - Phyrexian Revoker can help here, but with additional sources to find an other lands.
- Surgical Extraction - Chalice for 1 is good here, good play with Ooze/own DRS can work here.

Summarize:
It will hard to tune this deck to today meta, red and white splash looks optimal.

Deck:

// 61 Maindeck
// 13 Artifact
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Trinisphere
4 Mox Diamond
3 Smokestack

// 12 Creature
1 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
1 Ranumap Excavator
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Tireless Tracker
1 Reclamation Sage
3 Knight of the Reliquary

// 3 Instant
3 Punishing Fire

// 26 Land
4 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Nomad Stadium
1 Karakas
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
2 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Forest
2 Taiga
2 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Windswept Heath
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

// 7 Sorcery
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Living Wish


// 15 Sideboard
// 7 Creature
1 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
1 Ranumap Excavator
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers
// 4 Instant
3 Krosan Grip
1 Blessed Alliance
// 4 Land
1 Karakas
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Bojuka Bog
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale


Problems encounter:
1. Mana base - If we don't run 4x Waste + Sol lands we loss speed, either if we don't run 4 x waste we lose engine
2. Lock // action balance like you see I cut engine to 1-of since even with 4 GSZ and 3 Wishes every time something was missing mostly, a wasteland or it was too late since opponent get advantage on battlefield enough to win, more over since we running not to much creatures they keep tier removal to combo.
Chalice and Trini doesn't stop for long - 1-2 turns mostly since modern decks running decay's, Kolaghan's Command so living in magic Christmas land maybe it would work, overlay I don't think focusing on combo only which needs two creatures for 2G on battlefield which doesn't insta win is rather have place on kitchen tables.

Lesson learned:
Combo can have place as addition as 1-of target in good shell like Maverick or Aggro Loam.

[morgan_coke]

I like the idea of Chasm, especially sitting behind it and building up a huge Ballista to snipe your opponent to death. But with we want to go with the recursive plan for it, dealing with GY hate is mandatory. And DRS' lifeloss can still get around this plan.

Crystal Vein is worth testing.

I'm not really sold on Nomad Stadium, at least in my variant of the deck, as it would have trouble to reach threshold by itself.

If you're running Ballista - which is a very good option I think - have you thought about Inventors' Fair? It gains life (slowly) and recursively tutors for artifacts.

@Dice_Box - Tabernacle is the solution to a flooded board. Mentor and Pyromancer are doing a great big pile of jack all vs. a Tabernacle on the table. Tab + any kind of mana denial just turns creature and tempo decks off.

[Barook]

Edit: I want to see test results of the deck first, but we might consider Beast Within as potential removal card. The CC of :2::g: fits the deck perfectly. It really depends on how problematic the 3/3 is going to turn out, but being able to deal with any annoying permanent at instant speed sounds interesting. Bonus style points for blowing up a land when Tabernable is in play or creating a suprise blocker with one of your own permanents.


If you're running Ballista - which is a very good option I think - have you thought about Inventor's Fair? It gains life (slowly) and recursively tutors for artifacts.

@Dice_Box - Tabernacle is the solution to a flooded board. Mentor and Pyromancer are doing a great big pile of jack all vs. a Tabernacle on the table. Tab + any kind of mana denial just turns creature and tempo decks off.
I don't know if the deck has always enough artifacts in play to satisfy its metalcraft requirements. I'm sceptical.

@Fatal: While I agree with the analysis of potential problems, I don't necessary agree with all conclusions:

- Certain combo match-ups do require white. Whether or not playing Gaddock Teeg in the main or rather in the wishboard is debatable. Between Chalice & GSZ (and in your case Smokestack) there are plenty of cards I'd rather not want to see dead.

- @Delver and Walkers: PF is probably the best possible solution, even if it's a nonbo with 3sphere. However, I'm more concerned about the additional strain it puts on the mana base. Ramping with fetchlands while the combo is out gets way weaker with less forests and fetches available.

- @Elves: Again, PF would help here. Tabernacle is probably less stellar here due to LOL CRADLE.

- TNN has a good chance to be problematic. But is Smokestack really going to help against it?

- I'm not really a fan of cutting down the combo that much. It makes it even easier to cut down your recursion.

[morgan_coke]

Edit: I want to see test results of the deck first, but we might consider Beast Within as potential removal card. The CC of :2::g: fits the deck perfectly. It really depends on how problematic the 3/3 is going to turn out, but being able to deal with any annoying permanent at instant speed sounds interesting. Bonus style points for blowing up a land when Tabernable is in play or creating a suprise blocker with one of your own permanents.


I don't know if the deck has always enough artifacts in play to satisfy its metalcraft requirements. I'm sceptical.

@Fatal: While I agree with the analysis of potential problems, I don't necessary agree with all conclusions:

- Certain combo match-ups do require white. Whether or not playing Gaddock Teeg in the main or rather in the wishboard is debatable. Between Chalice & GSZ (and in your case Smokestack) there are plenty of cards I'd rather not want to see dead.

- @Delver and Walkers: PF is probably the best possible solution, even if it's a nonbo with 3sphere. However, I'm more concerned about the additional strain it puts on the mana base. Ramping with fetchlands while the combo is out gets way weaker with less forests and fetches available.

- @Elves: Again, PF would help here. Tabernacle is probably less stellar here due to LOL CRADLE.

- TNN has a good chance to be problematic. But is Smokestack really going to help against it?

- I'm not really a fan of cutting down the combo that much. It makes it even easier to cut down your recursion.

You guys are missing some things. Like, the elf matchup? How do they get through Chasm? Answer, they don't. And yeah, cradle laughs at Tabernacle. Wasteland laughs at Cradle. Walkers? They're expensive. If they hit, there are options, our own creatures, Revoker, and if you're really worried about it, stuff like Beast Within is an easily sideboarded option. We went down the P.Fire type paths in the old EG threads. It doesn't work, ends up diluting your gameplan too much, and since you're already vulnerable to GY hate, that just increases it. P. Fire is a "solution" that accentuates your weaknesses and undermine's your strengths. It's a trap plan.

With mainboard LD/Chalices/3spheres, there are already tons of ways to fight combo, Sphere/Thalia/Teeg effects are available if you want more, but they don't really need to be mainboarded with everything that's already there. Especially wiht Wish to grab one out of the board if needed.

I mean, honestly, Moment's Peace is a better answer to Elves! than Punishing Fire.

[Barook]

You guys are missing some things. Like, the elf matchup? How do they get through Chasm? Answer, they don't.
Except when they go off with Glimpse and do repeated DRS activations after providing enough fodder for it. It isn't a 100% fool-proof plan. I've seen Julian pull it off often enough on his stream to know that.

Does anyone know when Cockatrice normally gets updated with new sets? The wait is killing me and I'm not willing to drop 1k $ for MTGO on an untested deck that might turn out to be not even good enough.

[morgan_coke]

Except when they go off with Glimpse and do repeated DRS activations after providing enough fodder for it. It isn't a 100% fool-proof plan. I've seen Julian pull it off often enough on his stream to know that.

Does anyone know when Cockatrice normally gets updated with new sets? The wait is killing me and I'm not willing to drop 1k $ for MTGO on an untested deck that might turn out to be not even good enough.

Eh. I guess. where are they going to get all the sorceries and instants they need for that? Not like either deck is really big on those kind of spells. Also, again, they'd have to do that through Chalice and 3sphere. I know we can't test yet, but that's quite a lot of hate for Elves! to get through.

[Dice_Box]

Except when they go off with Glimpse and do repeated DRS activations after providing enough fodder for it. It isn't a 100% fool-proof plan. I've seen Julian pull it off often enough on his stream to know that.

Does anyone know when Cockatrice normally gets updated with new sets? The wait is killing me and I'm not willing to drop 1k $ for MTGO on an untested deck that might turn out to be not even good enough.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Cockatrice/comments/6hzyuh/houxml/

[Barook]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Cockatrice/comments/6hzyuh/houxml/
About time. Wasn't up a few hours ago.

First impression: Ballista is a very good Magic card. And it would be nice to once not run into a B/g deck with a metric shitton of basics. :rolleyes:

[Secretly.A.Bee]

There's a very old 3color stax list called Sun Tower that played with a concept that included Sylvan Library and Words of Wilding, making a lot of bears quickly. You could look in that direction. Doesn't play well with Tabby, bit I'm pretty sure Chasm is better here anyway. It also goes well with the name, Two Green.

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[Barook]

There's a very old 3color stax list called Sun Tower that played with a concept that included Sylvan Library and Words of Wilding, making a lot of bears quickly. You could look in that direction. Doesn't play well with Tabby, bit I'm pretty sure Chasm is better here anyway. It also goes well with the name, Two Green.
You're the MVP of the day. Not because Words of Wilding is great, but because it made me remember another card of the cycle: Words of War


http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=40191&type=card https://i.warosu.org/data/tg/img/0352/18/1412105531394.jpg

It doesn't tax the deck as heavy as the PF/Grove combo, in fact, it only requires a single :r: to be good to go, it's repeatable removal AND a wincon on its own. The fact that it makes multiple Sylvan Libraries insane instead of dead cards is just the icing on the cake. This card might be the perfect fit for the deck, since it draws a metric shitton between Tracker clues and Canopy recursion anyway. CC in the right range, mows down swarms and Planeswalker alike and it even functions behind a Glacial Chasm. Awesome.

I would still run multiple Ballistas to complement it, preventing a lock-out with Revoker or Needle.

I need to go back to the drawing board to figure out how to incorporate this card.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

You're the MVP of the day. Not because Words of Wilding is great, but because it made me remember another card of the cycle: Words of War


http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=40191&type=card https://i.warosu.org/data/tg/img/0352/18/1412105531394.jpg

It doesn't tax the deck as heavy as the PF/Grove combo, in fact, it only requires a single :r: to be good to go, it's repeatable removal AND a wincon on its own. The fact that it makes multiple Sylvan Libraries insane instead of dead cards is just the icing on the cake. This card might be the perfect fit for the deck, since it draws a metric shitton between Tracker clues and Canopy recursion anyway. CC in the right range, mows down swarms and Planeswalker alike and it even functions behind a Glacial Chasm. Awesome.

I would still run multiple Ballistas to complement it, preventing a lock-out with Revoker or Needle.

I need to go back to the drawing board to figure out how to incorporate this card.
Thanks. Glad I could help, Angel Stax was the first legacy deck I built that wasn't ported from standard and went through many flavors after that, then played stompy varients before moving on (ported first one; was UG Madness), so anytime I see Stax varients, I inevitably look at my time with it.

iirc, Emidln used to use it off and on in Sun Tower (pretty sure it was his baby before he switched to storm). I liked it less because it did nothing for the advancement of smokestack counters. If you get a library and a Words of Wilding out with a Trinisphere, they really never get to play magic again.

The reason I prefer Wilding is because Stax obv plays to the board, and while damage can win a game, Wilding generates a body capable of being more impactful longer on the board.

But hey, if you think splashing is better, go for it. I'm sure it'll be good, if just not my style. I'll probably get around to building stax again in the next year. In the meantime, get a good list so I don't have to work it out myself [emoji14]

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[Barook]

Got to play a few more games, even against some real decks like Maverick or D&T. The deck definitely needs some work, but it does have potential:

- Tabernacle is THE SHIT against creature-heavy decks and wins games. FULL STOP. Although the full wipe out was rather rare. In most cases, it was a gradual decline.
- Words of War can be a tad bit slow without accel, but so far, it did a pretty decent job at shotting down unbeloved creatures, even without the combo. Turning your natural draws into Shocks in the time of need is suprisingly effective. However, once it's combined with Library (currently running a 3/3 split), all hell breaks lose. Definitely a card worth further testing.
- Trinisphere disappointed me so far. It was either win-more, did nothing or even hindered me instead of the opponent. It's gonna get moved to the SB for another Knight and a third MD Ballista.
- Ballista is fantastic. Going with a 3 MD/1 SB split for now.
- I still feel like the deck needs more removal, especially when it comes to artifacts and enchantments. Not sure how I'm going to solve that one yet.

Current, updated list for reference:

// 61 Maindeck
// 8 Artifact
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void

// 15 Creature
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Courser of Kruphix
3 Walking Ballista
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Ramunap Excavator

// 6 Enchantment
3 Sylvan Library
3 Words of War

// 25 Land
3 City of Traitors
3 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Forest
1 Karakas
2 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Taiga

// 7 Sorcery
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Living Wish


// 15 Sideboard
// 3 Artifact
3 Trinisphere

// 8 Creature
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Walking Ballista
1 Thragtusk
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Ramunap Excavator
1 Phyrexian Revoker

// 4 Land
1 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Krosan Grip or Beast Within seems the correct line here for that removal issue.

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[MD.Ghost]

@Barook you really want a Tracker as a Wish Target? If you already run R i would clearly see Magus of the Moon as a Wish-Win Target for some Matchups/Board Situations.

I am glad you like Ballista too - with all the Mana including Sollands its a really solid card.

[Barook]

@Barook you really want a Tracker as a Wish Target? If you already run R i would clearly see Magus of the Moon as a Wish-Win Target for some Matchups/Board Situations.
Probably not.

Magus of the Moon as a Wish target is an interesting thought. The deck can clearly operate under Blood Moon, even though it loses a bunch of its utility when it can't use its land abilities. And that kinda sucks.

[P210]

Edit: I want to see test results of the deck first, but we might consider Beast Within as potential removal card. The CC of :2::g: fits the deck perfectly. It really depends on how problematic the 3/3 is going to turn out, but being able to deal with any annoying permanent at instant speed sounds interesting.

What about Song of the Dryads?
Also removes problematic non-creature permanents / indestructible creatures. And we can blow up the "forest" with Wasteland, if Abrupt Decay could be a problem...

Also good old Ratchet Bomb worked well in Srompy/Stax shells, why not here? Blowing up Delver and Deathrite at the same time is always a good thing...

[Barook]

What about Song of the Dryads?
Also removes problematic non-creature permanents / indestructible creatures. And we can blow up the "forest" with Wasteland, if Abrupt Decay could be a problem...

Also good old Ratchet Bomb worked well in Srompy/Stax shells, why not here? Blowing up Delver and Deathrite at the same time is always a good thing...
Good find. Like Beast Within, it comes with baggage attached, so it's hard to say which one is better. Or maybe both suck.

Definitely on my long "to-test" list.

[Megadeus]

Any thoughts to playing Smugglers Copter? He can be piloted by our men whom we don't want attacking, and he loots lands into the yard for Excavator

[Barook]

Any thoughts to playing Smugglers Copter? He can be piloted by our men whom we don't want attacking, and he loots lands into the yard for Excavator
Slots are premium, so I'm not too sure about it. Shooting down stuff with Words of War once you're empty-handed is pretty cool, I guess, but I don't think it scales up to Sylvan Library (which is probably the better card overall).

But test it if you wish to do. The more test results, the better.

[slave]

Needs Trinisphere - I agree on that call.


this deck is going to want some non-zero number of loam.
I'm not sure it's necessary, but it could be useful.
I think it will need something to pull up your wastelands out of the deck, regardless of graveyard reclamation card choices. Realms Uncharted? No, I'd look at something that comes out earlier like Crop Rotation, Sylvan Scrying etc.
Graveyard killing hate like RiP, Scooze & Deathrite Shaman for example, could make your deck less effective as they come out reasonably early. I'd consider some number of non-basic land tutor to keep the wastes coming.

And just a question;
What's your win-con against decks that don't need more than one land to build a winning board position?

[apple713]

And just a question;
What's your win-con against decks that don't need more than one land to build a winning board position?

those decks would likely be S&T, Dredge, Belcher, ANT, maybe Elves, Painter Servant, Reanimator, AND likely anything else with moxes / lotus petals / aether vial (goblins, merfolk, D&T, Slivers).

Creature decks can be fought with the land destruction combined with tabernacle / glacial chasm.

The spell decks, will be slowed by Chalice at 0/1/2, HOWEVER, you NEED trinisphere to stop them from winning spontaneously. Trinisphere, combined with land destruction is why decks concede to stax. It makes magic UNPLAYABLE, and it should be included here.

You do not need any win conditions other than your combo pieces if you include trinisphere and commit to the prison strategy.

riftstone portal might merit an inclusion too if you chose to go white.

White stax decks suffer to consistency issues. Same with black versions. Green has the amazing ability to use GSZ to find psuedo combo / lock pieces.

It is Highly likely you will want sylvan safekeeper in your deck becauase it protects your combo, AND although it cost 1, it can be tutored for with GSZ. Not to mention its cost is negligible since u plan to have an abundance of lands.

Also, if you plan on using tabernacle / land destruction to control creatures, you need maze of ith.

Sylvan library is pretty necessary here to improve consistncy. It comes own on T1 and is just stellar.

Also, seems like the deck might have problems against other strategies like lands. If they land a exploration and find a life from the loam rather quickly, its gonna be bad. I'll mention it again that ground seal prevents decks from reanimating, using life from the loam, death rite shaman, and extracting / removing your cards from the grave. It cost 2 mana AND replaces itself. It does alot of work in this deck and against other decks. It should at the very least be a sb card.

Also, Words of war seems like a mediocre / bad reason for inclusion. I havent playtested the deck but it seems unnecessary. I feel like some kind of recursion for your creatures that get killed would be more important since you have to play them out fast with the risk of having them killed. If they get killed it really puts a damper in your plan.

[Barook]

I'm not sold on MD Trinisphere. Whenever I play a deck with Sol lands, it starts in the MD and wanders into the SB eventually. The uselessness/backfire potential is just too great in many match-ups.

Riftstone Portal is bad. How are you going to get it into the GY?

Sylvan Safekeeper has potential, but what to cut?

The deck does have glaring issues at dealing with fatties. More on that below.

Ground Seal is a card I'm considering for the board. But again, what to cut?

My experience so far with Words of War is either that it wins games or is a kill-on-sight card. People are scared shitless of it, especially when there is a Library already on the field. However, it is also slow. Maybe it's more of a SB card, who knows.

For now, to account for the fatties, I'm going to run a SB Maze of It/Chasm and a MD Maze. Words of War are going to replaced with Abrupt Deay to see how good that one deals with fatties.

[square_two]

Current list I'm looking to test with the crucible snek, basically Sylvan Plug Stax:

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
3 Smokestack

1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tireless Tracker
2 Ramunap Excavator
1 Eternal Witness
1 Azusa, Lost But Seeking
4 Thought-knot Seer
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth

3 Sylvan Library
4 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Mox Diamond
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
7 green fetch
5 Forest

Unsure of a sideboard, will probably check the plug thread for that, shouldn't be too much trouble.

I have really been wanting to run Smokestack with Tireless Tracker but in the end it may just be too cute and/or unnecessary. Tracker is a threat/CA engine all on her own, TKS is a further threat. With low toughness Asuza and Excavator (well ok I just actually checked their toughness, not bad), I don't really want to run something like Toxic Deluge, nor the nic fit route of Deed. Keeping straight green (or G<>) does limit the amount of removal available.

I'm intrigued with Words of War. Crazy with library :)

Could see a GR version with Loam, Punishing Fire, and Words. But initially I will try to test something with sphere and few smokestacks for removal. I even thought of full 4 Smokestack and including 3 Ensnaring Bridge, ala Braids Stax, but that seemed sort of odd, and very reliant on having smokey stay for a few turns. TKS instead helps disrupt and add a clock.

I've been impressed with Titania the last couple times I ran her in BUG fit, although I had a Ghost Quarter there to enable some silly turns with her. Shouldn't be difficult here to abuse her as well.

Edit: Deathrite might go, considering no black here. Will have to see how often he gets fetched, but I'm thinking with Chalice/Trinisphere/Library as openers, might not be used that often. Will want to save GSZ for tracker/crucible.

[Barook]

Could see a GR version with Loam, Punishing Fire, and Words. But initially I will try to test something with sphere and few smokestacks for removal. I even thought of full 4 Smokestack and including 3 Ensnaring Bridge, ala Braids Stax, but that seemed sort of odd, and very reliant on having smokey stay for a few turns. TKS instead helps disrupt and add a clock.
I could see a version of Words/PF working if you go full "Pew Pew Pew" mode while hiding behind Ensnaring Bridge/Glacial Chasm. If you stay GR, the opportunity cost to run both is pretty low, aside from putting both in the deck. I'd definitely run Ballista to complement both, though. Even without Library, you could use Words to shoot something, then utilize the rest of the your mana to shoot something with PF or pump your Ballista. There should definitely be ways to maximize the use of your mana.

But it would probably another deck in that case.

[MD.Ghost]

@square_two i like your idea!

I would brew something like this for Barooks Thread:

// 60 Maindeck

// 13 Artifact
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Mox Diamond
3 Smokestack
3 Trinisphere

// 20 Creature
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Walking Ballista
4 Tireless Tracker
3 Ramunap Excavator
3 Matter Reshaper
2 Eternal Witness

// 3 Enchantment
3 Sylvan Library

// 24 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
2 City of Traitors
5 Forest
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Ghost Quarter

// 15 Sideboard
SB: 2 Reclamation Sage
SB: 3 Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 Kitchen Finks
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 3 Warping Wail//Dismember//Spatial Contortion
SB: 2 Garruk Relentless

It stays Monogreen, features new Crucible-Guy, Landdestruction, Combodisruption, Removal and Smokestack-Abuse via Tracker-Clues or Reshaper too. Ballista itself is the only "endgame" stuff but it simply is a nice manasink and can be online turn 1 - on top its colorless. Sideboard is a quick sketch but should adress most matchups. I tried to avoid to many 1off ideas or toys - it is more streamlined.

[P210]

@MD.Ghost: Really like that take. I'd try to reduce the count on double green cards. Perhaps Thragtusk instead of finks and with Smokestack, Garruk could easy be in the mainboard...
I still think Green Sun's Zenith should be in the deck, but maybe the 3 Sylvan Lybraries will do the job aswell.

[apple713]

@MD.Ghost: Really like that take. I'd try to reduce the count on double green cards. Perhaps Thragtusk instead of finks and with Smokestack, Garruk could easy be in the mainboard...
I still think Green Sun's Zenith should be in the deck, but maybe the 3 Sylvan Lybraries will do the job aswell.

the only real reason to play this deck over other colors is because of green sun zenith. If you arnt playing it you are doing it wrong... It's an auto include 4x. I'd play 6-8 if i could because its that good. Think of it like a survival of the fittest...

[morgan_coke]

Was looking to see if this deck was doable in Modern, even with the lack of GSZ and Wasteland. While looking for replacements, I noticed Collected Company.

It doesn't dig super deep, but it can find and cast pretty much any two of our duders. Worth it as GSZ 5-8? Or maybe just 5-6? Or not so much? What do you guys think?

[Dice_Box]

Company Math was worked out a bit ago, I think it came down to "If your not running at lest 22 targets, don't bother". Also this deck is not built to abuse it as efficiently as the Modern decks are. Because your looking at trying to get cards you require on the field, not amass a group in a Midrange deck that happens to have a combo.

[Barook]

Was looking to see if this deck was doable in Modern, even with the lack of GSZ and Wasteland. While looking for replacements, I noticed Collected Company.

It doesn't dig super deep, but it can find and cast pretty much any two of our duders. Worth it as GSZ 5-8? Or maybe just 5-6? Or not so much? What do you guys think?
The creature density of the deck is probably to low to make good use of it.

@MD.Ghost: The lack of removal aside from Ballista is going to hurt you badly.

[Barook]

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/159101255

Mats played an interesting version of the deck, forsaking MD Chalices for Explorations, Crop Rotations and the Dark Depths combo alongside Loam. He went 8-2 in the league runs, probably could have 5-0ed the second one without mistakes in the last match.

Looks like a pretty good approach to me, even if it still needs work.

[jiazhouhuaqiao]

Any thoughts on Chancellor of the Tangle for more acceleration?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Isn't Chancellor just a bad ESG? It's not like you want that big dumb idiot in your opener...

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[Claymore]

Only time chancellor would be better is a Chrome Mox build to occasionally get 4 mana turn 1.

[morgan_coke]

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/159101255

Mats played an interesting version of the deck, forsaking MD Chalices for Explorations, Crop Rotations and the Dark Depths combo alongside Loam. He went 8-2 in the league runs, probably could have 5-0ed the second one without mistakes in the last match.

Looks like a pretty good approach to me, even if it still needs work.

That's roughly the approach that was taken with the old Garden lists, and this can work it even better thanks to GSZ, Azusa, and Excavator, but what you're going to find is that your combo is slower than any other combo, and slower than pretty much all aggro. So it doesn't actually help with your overall numbers that much, just makes you better at what you were already good at.

[T-101]

I can't wait to build a version of this deck.

A couple thoughts I've had while browsing this thread

1.) What fatties are you having trouble with specifically? I assume they aren't Legendary because of the Karakas, so then I guess they're Goyf/Angler/non-Legendary stuff from Reanimator? If that's the case, then Song of the Dryads looks pretty good as P210 said. If I understand the rules involved here, you can Wasteland their guy after you enchant it.

2.) If Trinisphere isn't working out, there's Sphere of Resistance and Thorn of Amethyst. They're more reliable on turn 1 with 7-8 sol lands, or another land plus Mox. I'm not sure which would be better for the deck, but I would lean towards Sphere. It hurts Delver more than Thorn, and while it does hurt our creatures too, it looks like we'll usually have the mana to cope with it better than the opponent.

I'm eager to see how this deck develops, and I'm sad I don't have enough time to build it tonight :(

[morgan_coke]

I've been messing around with building a version of this deck in Modern, and the biggest change is that I'm running some of the White DnT disruption package. The Thalia's and Aven Mindcensor might be really good here in some numbers.

I'd also really, really strongly recommend at least one copy of The Gitrog Monster. He's an additional "extra land" effect, and especially in a deck like this, he just draws an insane amount of cards. Also makes a really, really strong combo with Glacial Chasm locks, because you can just sac the Chasm to him, then return it and another land during your turn.

[P210]

I can't wait to build a version of this deck.

A couple thoughts I've had while browsing this thread

1.) What fatties are you having trouble with specifically? I assume they aren't Legendary because of the Karakas, so then I guess they're Goyf/Angler/non-Legendary stuff from Reanimator? If that's the case, then Song of the Dryads looks pretty good as P210 said. If I understand the rules involved here, you can Wasteland their guy after you enchant it.

2.) If Trinisphere isn't working out, there's Sphere of Resistance and Thorn of Amethyst. They're more reliable on turn 1 with 7-8 sol lands, or another land plus Mox. I'm not sure which would be better for the deck, but I would lean towards Sphere. It hurts Delver more than Thorn, and while it does hurt our creatures too, it looks like we'll usually have the mana to cope with it better than the opponent.

I'm eager to see how this deck develops, and I'm sad I don't have enough time to build it tonight :(

1. Atm I'm sticking with a mono green list, so Karakas is out. Main problems are cheated fatties and Knight of the Reliquary next to Deathrite Shaman and perhaps Delver. Thats why im testing some mix of Song of the Dryads,Walking Ballista and Engineered Explosives / Ratchet Bomb...
Goyf and Angler can be handled/stalled with Tracker, pump until he's bigger or at least can trade. Perhaps some Ensnaring Bridges in the sideboard for Sneak / Reanimator decks? This also would have a good synergy, if playing Smokestack. DRS needs to be handled asap, since he's mainbord hate against the main gameplan of the deck. Ballista sadly is subobtimal against DRS. Engineered Explosives or Ratchet Bomb really shines against CMC 1 and 2 permanents . Dunno if we can support Explosives but its usually faster than Bomb, and 3 mana for blowing up multiple DRS / Delver is always a pleasure. With Moxen it should also be viable to set Explosives on 2 and we usually don't want it on 3, since it will kill most of our stuff too.

2. I think the deck should play 3-4 Trinispheres.
There aren't many things that can slip through Trinisphere and recurring Wastelands and I really want more lockpieces than those 4 Chalices. Other decks playing Trinisphere like MUD also do not have more ways to cast Trinisphere turn 1 than we do. So for me thats not a reason to switch to Sphere of Resistance or Thorn. The only deck I prefere Sphere of Resistance is colorless Stax with Tangle Wire and Manlands...

[Megadeus]

Here's my initial take:
Green Drazi:

Maindeck (60)
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
4 Ramunap Excavator
2 Tireless Tracker
4 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Garruk Relentless
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
3 Smuggler's Copter
3 Trinisphere
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
1 Dryad Arbor
8 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Hashep Oasis
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Wasteland

[T-101]

I ran this list today at a 4 round event.

3 Walking Ballista
3 Ramunap Excavator
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth

4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Living Wish
3 Sylvan Library
1 Nissa, Vital Force

4 Forest
2 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
3 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Sideboard

1 Ramunap Excavator
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
1 Thragtusk
1 The Tabernacle at Penrell Vale
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
4 Leyline of the Void


Round 1 vs Esper Delver

Game 1 I kept a hand with 2 Chalice, Trinisphere, Tracker, Tomb, City, Forest. My first 5 spells got countered, and I died. Game 2 I was able to Do The Thing! Chalice for 1 on turn 1 stuck, then Trinisphere stuck... and the game drew out far too long for my liking. He wasn't doing anything, but neither was I. Tracker get drawing cards which was good, but he has a Batterskull which slowing my attack. A bunch of early Tombs got me low on life. If I chose to attack with a huge tracker, I'd be forced to throw away an Arbor or my Azusa. Eventually I draw into the combo, Waste him 3 times in 1 turn, and that's pretty much it. Game 3 was close. He starts with Delver, followed by a True Name, but on my Turn 3 I play Titania with a Ghost Quarter up. I would have won the race even after using Tombs a few times, but he had the Explosives for zero so Titania tokens couldn't win. So close, which felt good.

Round 2 vs Big Eldrazi

He's playing Oblivion Sower and Ulamog along with all the cheap stompy guys. I wasn't able to Wasteland him repeatedly, and I just get over run twice. Here's where I noticed my build is extremely clunky sometimes. I'm playing a wish board + 4 Leylines, but 4 Chalices and 4 Trinispheres main. I would have loved to take out the artifacts, but that would actually just weaken my deck, because I couldn't Wish for anything that I would board in. I'll have to work on this, and my first instinct is that Trinispheres need to go to the board, or be dropped altogether.

Round 3 - No Show

I wallow in shame in the 0/2 bracket, where my opponent doesn't even bother to play. I watched a sweet match between Big Eldrazi and 4 color Loam with a Ramunap to Green Sun for. He got to Wasteland his opponent for days, I'm super jelly.

Round 4 vs Grixis Delver

Game 1 Daze and Force beat the crap out of what I'm trying to do again. Wish for Maze stabilizes me for a few turns, but he draws the Bolt and kills me. Game 2 Walking Ballista takes out a Delver, but again Daze and Force obliterate me.

- - -

The deck was very cool, but I'm gonna make some serious changes before I play it again. Chalice + Trinisphere + Wish Board is extremely clunky, and having no removal hurt a lot. Trinsphere is either moving to the board, or getting cut for next time. I think I'll be adding black next time for Toxic Deluge, and I'm also considering Abrupt Decay and Liliana. If I cut Chalice, then I can play Deathrite and explore some other options too, like Exploration and Crop Rotation. There's a link to a Twitch vod on page 2 showing some game play with those cards, and it was pretty cool. Openings of Tomb + Mox + Ramunap, turn 2 Crop Rotation for Wasteland, use it, play it from the yard to use it again can be better than Chalice for 1 openings. I think I'd like the Wish plan a lot more without the maindeck artifacts, so I'll probably stick with that.

The particularly spicy cards I ran today, Titania and Nissa Vital Force will stick around for next time as well. Fast Titania with a Wasteland plan makes a scary clock, and she dodges Push and Decay (and edict effects). I didn't get to cast Nissa, but she seems great. Making a huge attacker or blocker is great, and it's especially great that she can emblem a one sided Horn of Greed on her second turn. The -3 could also be useful, but I'm more excited about the +1 and Emblem.

I'll be on vacation for about a week, but I will post more results when I get them.

[Dice_Box]

I have ordered some stuff have it coming and I plan to mess around. I am thinking about G/W, with Peacekeeper, Thalia and Swords. Just looking at what I can use to patch the holes.

Anyone got any new insights?

Edit: thrown together

//Creatures:
1 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
2 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Peacekeeper
2 Ramunap Excavator
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth

//Enchantments:
2 Sylvan Library

//Sorceries:
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Living Wish

//Artifacts:
4 Mox Diamond
3 Smokestack

//Lands:
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
4 Savannah
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills

//Sideboard:
1 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Intrepid Hero
1 Karakas
1 Peacekeeper
1 Ramunap Excavator
2 Reclamation Sage
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

[morgan_coke]

@Dice

I like taking it in kind of a Maverick direction. Only thing I'd add is you should think about Thalia, Heretic Cathar as well as guardian. A 1st turn Cathar (mox + tomb) is just gg vs fetchland.dec They don't untap with mana until t3 that way.

[Dice_Box]

As much as I like the idea, I don't know where it fits. Thalia is a concession to Combo just running over my build. Heretic might fit the fair plan better but I don't know if I can really make the cuts needed to add in another fair hate card.

[apple713]

you dont need her if you just add trinisphere to the deck!

[square_two]

I'm enjoying my build much better since replacing TKS with Ballista and adding a higher ratio of Ghost Quarters (over Wasteland). Added a Titania, 2 Nissa Vital Force, and 2 oddball Song of the Dryads.

Had a game that was me with T1 Trinisphere, T2 Ramunap, T3 Azusa and triple Ghost Quarter. :cool:
Even a Deathrite on the field isn't scary. At least, they don't often expect GSZ for Azusa and then immediately play land from grave!

I've added a second Titania as well to the deck, I think she fits in here like butter. At least the mono-green versions that are more oriented to locking down the game (Trinisphere). Titania plus Ghost Quarter is an amazing combination, and any other form of graveyard recursion to supplement Ramunap is great. I'm choosing 2 Nissa, Vital Force since she can recur other helpful things and also do a pseudo-Reality Smasher impression. So long as you have a Chalice to protect Titania from StP/Bolt then you can easily just overwhelm the opp with a fast army of 5/3 tokens.

Edit: One point in favor of Trinisphere, I've found, is the density of Clues that we can generate. Every additional 2 mana can be used to draw cards - it helps alleviate the potential inefficiency of having the 'sphere out.

[P210]

So after some more testing, recent thoughts from my side.

Living Wish: Too clunky in my eyes. Until now, I think the only way to get this running is in a green Stax shell with mainboard Ensnaring Bridge.

Mono Green works fine for me with 8x Sol land, which is nice with Thought-Knot Seer. Still, sometimes a land tutor would be nice.

As soon we splash another color, I think we need to reduce the sol land count, which always makes me unhappy when playing Chalice of the Void.

The white splash can be amazing, since old/new Thalias and Knight are very strong with Crucible Snake. I'm not sure if it should be a Maverick shell without Chalice but the Maverik one drops and perhaps some Moxen, but then this should probably be discussed in the Maverik thread? Or some kind of Thalia Stompy with Chalice and green for Knight and Crucible Snake..?

Overall I'm very happy with the Crucible Snake but some form of protection is needed, otherwise the deckplan gets disrupted way too easy. My main question here is Chalice/3sphere vs. Chalice/Thalia vs. Thalia/Mom...?^^

[Dice_Box]

I am thinking about pushing a Thalia/Thorn set up as protection. I have done some hands with Heritic, I am not unimpressed... Double negative intended.

Edit.
My original plan for white was cards like Peacekeeper, if we push hard in that direction I feel Peacekeeper is best discarded. We start looking at a Tempo style Stax build with less of a hard lock but also less prone to lose to its own inability to close a match. That is if Stax as a card fits. But the more you strip away, the most it looks like existing shells that have just been updated and less it's own beast.

[solnox]

Has anyone tried out a Black splash for cards like Diabolic edict and engineered plague? been working on one after I played vs Square_Two on mtgo and discovered this thread.

[maharis]

I started working on this last night, but I don't have any 3balls so gotta go pick them up today.

I am playing Phyrexian Revoker and Smuggler's Copter for additional t1 plays. Copter flies over stuff and filters our hand a bit, you can also stuff an Excavator in there so you don't have to expose it to combat. Revoker turns off DRS and other stuff. I'll post a list when I settle on it. Put together a rudimentary version and Ramunap/Tracker is really insane.

[Megadeus]

I started working on this last night, but I don't have any 3balls so gotta go pick them up today.

I am playing Phyrexian Revoker and Smuggler's Copter for additional t1 plays. Copter flies over stuff and filters our hand a bit, you can also stuff an Excavator in there so you don't have to expose it to combat. Revoker turns off DRS and other stuff. I'll post a list when I settle on it. Put together a rudimentary version and Ramunap/Tracker is really insane.

Seems sick. Would love to see how close to my initial list it is.

As for black splash, seems good to me. Fetches with crucible man help you hit lands drops. I was thinking of this same thought for plague and stuff yesterday. Any thought to To The Slaughter over edict? It's nice to fight walkers.

[solnox]

// 60 Maindeck
// 8 Artifact
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void

// 20 Creature
3 Ramunap Excavator
2 Walking Ballista
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
1 Eternal Witness
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
4 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Thragtusk
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Deathrite Shaman

// 2 Enchantment
2 Sylvan Library

// 25 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Forest
4 Llanowar Wastes
1 Bayou

// 1 Planeswalker
1 Garruk Relentless

// 4 Sorcery
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Life from the Loam


// 15 Sideboard
// 2 Artifact
SB: 2 Thorn of Amethyst

// 2 Creature
SB: 2 Phyrexian Revoker

// 7 Enchantment
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Engineered Plague

// 3 Instant
SB: 1 Warping Wail
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict

// 1 Land
SB: 1 Karakas


Heres my first draft that I've been playing around with on cockatrice as I don't own the stompy pieces on mtgo.

Toxic Deluge could be a consideration but that wraths your own dudes.

[maharis]

Seems sick. Would love to see how close to my initial list it is.

As for black splash, seems good to me. Fetches with crucible man help you hit lands drops. I was thinking of this same thought for plague and stuff yesterday. Any thought to To The Slaughter over edict? It's nice to fight walkers.

Oh jeez, sorry, I didn't even see that. I mean I guess we have similar taste so I'm not that surprised but I should've looked at your list instead of just throwing random cards into a pile last night haha.

One thing I like about copter is that you can t1 it, it's unlikely to be killed, then you can play chalice into fetch Dryad Arbor the next turn to crew and start ripping through your deck.

On the splash, I think we pretty much have to play Dismember, though it hurts a bit with Ancient Tomb, so that's an argument to have a couple Bayou anyway. Then you also get access to Decay and even, like, Thoughtseize/Push to have early interaction besides Chalice. With the Tombs and Dismembers I keep an Obstinate Baloth and Thragtusk in the deck as well. I even considered Birthing Pod but it seems hard to get going without a 1-drop to sac.

[solnox]

I feel that a Vraska would be good if I played the black splash. Being able to deal with random permanents while being a potential win con seems good.

[Purple Blood]

Here's a list I've been messing with. G/W Stax variant. Kind of a different style that most Stax lists but it sneaks up on people pretty nicely. Didn't want to post a new thread and I figured this is the closest existing thread to the idea behind my deck.

4 Exploration
3 DRS
4 Mox Diamond

4 GSZ
4 Crop Rotation

4 Armageddon
4 Smoke Stack

3 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Renegade Rallier

1 Ramunap Excavator
3 Life From the Loam / Crucible (can't decide which I prefer)

8 Fetch
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Downyard Temple
1 God's Eye
2 Forest
1 Plains

Basically I'm trying to power out Smoke Stack with Exploration rather than Sol Lands. And I want to tick up to 2 or 3 rather than keeping it at 1. Best draws are turn two Smoke Stack. Turn three Geddon loaming back my lands. This usually leads to a scoop.

Tracker is a beast in this list. Once you have land recursion you will generate essentially infinite clue tokens which allows you to sustain a 2 or even 3 counter Smokestack very easily.

I really like having the Crop Rotation and GSZ toolbox. If you properly setup for your meta you should be able to have answers for every situation. I guess there is the question of answering a planeswalker though. That doesn't seem as relevant right now though with the downtick in Jace decks.

I really want to make a transformational sideboard. Leaning toward dark depths. Something like:

4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Sylvan Scrying
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Rec Sage
1 Tabernacle (not that I have or will get one lol)

[MDHackbert]

@square_two i like your idea!

I would brew something like this for Barooks Thread:

// 60 Maindeck

// 13 Artifact
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Mox Diamond
3 Smokestack
3 Trinisphere

// 20 Creature
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Walking Ballista
4 Tireless Tracker
3 Ramunap Excavator
3 Matter Reshaper
2 Eternal Witness

// 3 Enchantment
3 Sylvan Library

// 24 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
2 City of Traitors
5 Forest
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Ghost Quarter

// 15 Sideboard
SB: 2 Reclamation Sage
SB: 3 Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 Kitchen Finks
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 3 Warping Wail
SB: 2 Garruk Relentless

It stays Monogreen, features new Crucible-Guy, Landdestruction, Combodisruption, Removal and Smokestack-Abuse via Tracker-Clues or Reshaper too. Ballista itself is the only "endgame" stuff but it simply is a nice manasink and can be online turn 1 - on top its colorless. Sideboard is a quick sketch but should adress most matchups. I tried to avoid to many 1off ideas or toys - it is more streamlined.

I played this to a 2-3 result in a MTGO League. Biggest takeaway was the lack of a sweeper. I died in the delver matchup to flipped delvers and in one of the TES games to Empty. Died vs the first S&S to Omni > Emmy and Sneak'd Emmy.

Matches:
Rd1: 2-0 Infect (Ballista too good XD)
Rd2: 1-2 Grixis Delver (green splash, no basics)
Rd3: 0-2 TES
Rd4: 1-2 Omni Sneak and Show
Rd5: 2-0 Omni Sneak and Show (w/ Cunning Wish)

I can always call up replays if ppl have specific questions. How have Azusa and/or Titania builds been doing for people?

[P210]

I played this to a 2-3 result in a MTGO League. Biggest takeaway was the lack of a sweeper. I died in the delver matchup to flipped delvers and in one of the TES games to Empty.
[...]
I can always call up replays if ppl have specific questions. How have Azusa and/or Titania builds been doing for people?

For sweepers in mono green: Ratched Bomb or Engineered Explosives should be good against Delver and Tokens. Shouldn't Storm already be a favourable matchup with 3ball and Chalice mainboard, at least on the play?

Titania is an awesome one-off with Green Sun's Zenith. Sol-lands help to cast Zenit for x=5 quickly and with Wasteland, Fetches and City of Traitors you quickly take over the board.
Azusa is mad with Crucible Snake but sometimes she's just a dead card in your hand or a win-more card. Again max a one-off with tutor in my opinion...

[MDHackbert]

For sweepers in mono green: Ratched Bomb or Engineered Explosives should be good against Delver and Tokens. Shouldn't Storm already be a favourable matchup with 3ball and Chalice mainboard, at least on the play?

I keep the ground decently except against tokens, so EE may be what I'm looking for.

Against TES:
G1 i didn't have a lock-piece opener.
G2 i mulled hard. Found chalice but got emptied before i could land it for more than 0.


Sent from mobile using Tapatalk

[Barook]

Since many people run alot of Libraries, I wonder if anybody has tested the old-school combo with Abundance. Drawing 3 each turn while filtering out what you don't need sounds pretty good to me.

[Megadeus]

It's not exactly what we've discussed here, but I went 3-1 with this list tonight. Felt surprisingly good. Lost to Depths. Combo in general is probably an issue. Beat Merfolk, Elves, and Maverick. I think it may need something over the shriekmaw, maybe another edict. Access to black for removal was real nice. May need a city of traitors or two, though making colored mana was already pretty awkward


Green Drazi:

Maindeck (61)
1 Deathrite Shaman
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Ramunap Excavator
1 Reclamation Sage
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Reality Smasher
1 Shriekmaw
3 Fatal Push
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Collective Brutality
1 To the Slaughter
4 Mox Diamond
3 Smuggler's Copter
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
2 Hashep Oasis
2 Hostile Desert
3 Llanowar Wastes
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath

Sideboard (15)
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Thragtusk
2 Duress
2 Krosan Grip
2 Massacre
1 Batterskull
2 Choke
2 Engineered Plague



Shared via TopDecked MTG https://www.topdecked.me/decks/e5290120-6a46-4707-ad60-cc7106377df5

[Barook]

How have the Deserts and Copters been for you? No Chalice obviously spells trouble against combo.

Has anybody the Loam list from Mats saved? It looked like the most reasonable one at dealing with creatures while not sacrificing too much game against the rest of the field.

[Megadeus]

How have the Deserts and Copters been for you? No Chalice obviously spells trouble against combo.

Has anybody the Loam list from Mats saved? It looked like the most reasonable one at dealing with creatures while not sacrificing too much game against the rest of the field.

Copter has been good. Allowing crucible man to still "attack" by crewing and digging. Also the evasion is nice. It also ate a pridemage activation to clear the way for a jitte. I used the green desert to give my opponents knight +3+3 to trigger revolt lol. Also got to give a goyf +3 while forcing merfolk opponent to block TKS with a jitte with true name to get through damage. If it were instant speed it would be sick. Don't think I got to really use hostile desert in any manner that mattered, though in testing my opponent played Jace, brainstormed, and having 3 power was good for slaying jace.

[apple713]

Since many people run alot of Libraries, I wonder if anybody has tested the old-school combo with Abundance. Drawing 3 each turn while filtering out what you don't need sounds pretty good to me.

If they printed abundance on a creature it would be an auto include as a 1 of but adding a 4cmc enchanment that has no impact until the following turn and is just meh without library is probably not worth the slot. If you test as a 1 of you probably wont get it enough to get a good read. And adding more will likely feel clunky. Furthermore, what matches does it improve? Does it improve a poor match or just serve as a cool combo to add?

[Barook]

Furthermore, what matches does it improve? Does it improve a poor match or just serve as a cool combo to add?
Probably the latter.

I do wonder how the green Stompy version is going to deal with creatures AND the combo match-up more effectively. Chalice and Ballista are a nice start, but looking at Thalia Stompy, they seem to have so much more redundancy, even though they might lack a bit of consistency otherwise. Just look at the list at the bottom (http://series.magiccardmarket.eu/2017/07/29/legacy-grand-trial-winning-decklists/):

- Combo disruption: Thalia, TKS, Chalice
- creature control: Displacer (+ Containment Priest), Ballista, Jitte, (Karakas)

I love the Snake, but green does rather poorly in terms of combo disruption and creature control. Until those issues are addressed, I don't think it's going to be better than Thalia Stompy, as the advantages seem rather small compared to it.

[bruizar]

Probably the latter.

I do wonder how the green Stompy version is going to deal with creatures AND the combo match-up more effectively. Chalice and Ballista are a nice start, but looking at Thalia Stompy, they seem to have so much more redundancy, even though they might lack a bit of consistency otherwise. Just look at the list at the bottom (http://series.magiccardmarket.eu/2017/07/29/legacy-grand-trial-winning-decklists/):

- Combo disruption: Thalia, TKS, Chalice
- creature control: Displacer (+ Containment Priest), Ballista, Jitte, (Karakas)

I love the Snake, but green does rather poorly in terms of combo disruption and creature control. Until those issues are addressed, I don't think it's going to be better than Thalia Stompy, as the advantages seem rather small compared to it.

Lodestone Golem is a much better storm disruptor than Thought-Knot Seer, especially when you're running land disruption. I would stay away from Eldrazi Displacer. It just becomes another eldrazi + taxes list if you go that route. Why would you go for mono green anyway?

If you're afraid of SNT type decks, you need cheap discard effects. I would consider Dryad Arbor + Cabal Therapy + Surgical Extraction since you can replay the arbor from the graveyard anyway. Both Ramunap Excavator / Dryad Arbor and Walking Ballista are useful with Basilisk Collar. Also you need Engineered Plague against elves and perhaps some number of Life Goes On against burn.

[P210]

Lodestone Golem is a much better storm disruptor than Thought-Knot Seer, especially when you're running land disruption. I would stay away from Eldrazi Displacer. It just becomes another eldrazi + taxes list if you go that route. Why would you go for mono green anyway?

If you're afraid of SNT type decks, you need cheap discard effects. I would consider Dryad Arbor + Cabal Therapy + Surgical Extraction since you can replay the arbor from the graveyard anyway. Both Ramunap Excavator / Dryad Arbor and Walking Ballista are useful with Basilisk Collar. Also you need Engineered Plague against elves and perhaps some number of Life Goes On against burn.

Lodestone Golem: Too many non-artifact spells in this deck.
Therapy, Extraction, Collar and Life Goes On are all cmc 1 which is a no-go with Chalice of the Void. If we cut Chalice for discard, why not play DRS, Mom etc. and then we have some kind of (dark)Maverick deck...

[Megadeus]

I actually like the idea of Golem here. So Lands really help you get over his tax effect pretty well and by the time you have him down you should have enough mana to do whatever you want. If Maverick gets away with Thalia in their Green Sun deck, I think Golem would be fne here.

[maharis]

I think this is where I'll start:

4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Smuggler's Copter

4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
2 Dismember

3 Ramunap Excavator
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Thragtusk
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Deadly Recluse

4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Forest
3 Windswept Heath
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian's Stage
1 City of Traitors

Not sure about Depths combo but also don't really have anything else to put there. I don't own a Horizon Canopy. Found in a little goldfish testing that the Delver/YP decks are difficult so I'm gonna have a zenithable way to block/kill Delver and lots of lifegain up the curve to stop the bleeding. Ground Seal seems like a good card out of the board. Show & Tell decks seem like a pretty terrible matchup unless you just load up the board with discard.

[P210]

I actually like the idea of Golem here. So Lands really help you get over his tax effect pretty well and by the time you have him down you should have enough mana to do whatever you want. If Maverick gets away with Thalia in their Green Sun deck, I think Golem would be fne here.

That's true, still I'm not sure if I want to pay 4 mana for an non-tutored Snake or Tracker. Perhaps worth testing...


I think this is where I'll start:
[...]

Not sure about Depths combo but also don't really have anything else to put there. I don't own a Horizon Canopy. Found in a little goldfish testing that the Delver/YP decks are difficult so I'm gonna have a zenithable way to block/kill Delver and lots of lifegain up the curve to stop the bleeding. Ground Seal seems like a good card out of the board. Show & Tell decks seem like a pretty terrible matchup unless you just load up the board with discard.

I don't think a one-off Dephts/Stage is worth without Knight or some other way to tutor it. Perhaps more City of Traitors? Even if it has it's downsides, City is very good in combination with Snake Man and Tracker...

[apple713]

I know this is probably bot the direction you want to go in BUT it woulf solve all of the decks problems, theoretically.

Add blue for control elements. Blue also gives you access to creature bounce which is essentially removal if they cant cast it again.

You get access to cool blue cards like stifle, voidslime, myatic snake.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Edit: stupid phone

[Megadeus]

I know this is probably bot the direction you want to go in BUT it woulf solve all of the decks problems, theoretically.

Add blue for control elements. Blue also gives you access to creature bounce which is essentially removal if they cant cast it again.

You get access to cool blue cards like stifle, voidslime, myatic snake.

Seems mediocre (at least those particular cards). Maybe new stifle bird is good though. All of its costs line up nicely with a stompy mana base. Gonna be tough to fit enough blue stuff for force and if you're not playing brainstorm and you're not playing force, then why blue over like black?

[apple713]

Seems mediocre (at least those particular cards). Maybe new stifle bird is good though. All of its costs line up nicely with a stompy mana base. Gonna be tough to fit enough blue stuff for force and if you're not playing brainstorm and you're not playing force, then why blue over like black?

Black is usually second to blue. Black is proactive, where as blue is reactive. In a vacuum you'd rather react to what is actually happening than proactively discard cards, at which time the most dangerous ones might not be in hand.

Even without force because you are taxing their mana, cards like spell pierce are really good. Honestly i'd probably cut chalice / trinisphere for the blue control component.

Black doesn't really solve your combo problem unless you commit 7+ cards to discard and have chalice. Which can become wasteful.

[Meyer]

How have the Deserts and Copters been for you? No Chalice obviously spells trouble against combo.

Has anybody the Loam list from Mats saved? It looked like the most reasonable one at dealing with creatures while not sacrificing too much game against the rest of the field.
Someone on Reddit posted his article in which he refers to MatsOle; his list has minor changes though. Link: http://www.mtgadept.com/articles/2017/7/21/eternal-garden-2017 . Btw, Eternal Garden is a pretty good name for this deck. If you want the exact list, I guess you have to watch his video of the league (he is Mats_ on Twitch, I think the video was from early July).
You stated that his deck has the most balanced game against most of the field, but on XMage (only couple of games) I was often struggling against creature decks, for example DnT. I’ll probably add more Trackers for stalling/recovery/CA and more Toxic Deluge to the sideboard. On the other hand, sometimes this deck is bonkers and leaves the opponent crying with zero permanents while you shit out Titania tokens and draw cards with a growing Tracker. Azusa is probably win-more, but I have to do more testing.
Currently deciding between building this or Thalia Stompy in paper, but nonetheless I’m more interested in that kind of list. I like the approach cutting Chalice for Exploration/ Crop Rotation/ DRS, but in fact we’re Lands.deck with creatures then. Don’t know if that’s a strength or a weakness.

@ Purple Blood: As for the GW lists, there were threads with Titania & Cataclysm or something called Loam-a-Geddon. Maybe there is a reason nobody plays these decks, but otherwise there could be some inspiration. I have no experience with Smokestack though. It may either be bad with Cataclysm, or very good. You could replace the DRS with Arbor Elves and Wild Growth-like cards. But let us know how you perform.

[Megadeus]

I think one argument to fighting combo is that we have thought knot and warping wail available to us. That's solid and doesn't need a splash of color, just a slight reworking of the mana base

[morgan_coke]

After some testing I came to the conclusion we're all being way too cute here. So I refined into this-ish list, which is much more stompy with a sweet optional combo of Ramunap+ALbS.

Creatures -15
4x Ramunap Excavator
1x Azusa, Lost but Seeking
4x Tireless Tracker
4x Thought-Knot Seer
2x Obstinate Baloth

Artifacts - 8
4x Mox Diamond
4x Chalice of the Void

Spells - 10
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Warping Wail (maybe something better, dunno here, flex option)
2x Realms Uncharted

Lands - 27
1x Dryad Arbor
4x Ancient Tomb
3x City of Traitors
4x Hashep Oasis
6x Forest
2x Scavenger Grounds
3x Wasteland
2x Ghost Quarter
1x Haunted Fengraf
1x Horizon Canopy

Sideboard
4x Feed the Clan
3x Tormod's Crypt
4x Beast Within
4x Thorn of Amethyst/Sphere of Resistance

[Highexalted]

I have been so excited for crucible snake since it was spoiled. My first thought was 8X sol lands, GSZ, excavator,
Crucible, Armageddon, ravages of war. I was imagining G/W Stax, with knight of the reliquary and maybe Sylvan scrying to tutor lands for recursion. I sleeved up a list like this:

Artifact:

4 chalice of the void
4 trinisphere
2 thorn of amythest
4 Mox diamond
4 smokestack
4 crucible of worlds

Instant/Sorcery:

4 Armageddon
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Sylvan scrying

Creatures:

1 Azusa, lost but seeking
3 ramunap excavator
1 Titania, protector of argoth

Lands:
4 wasteland
3 windswept Heath
1 ghost quarter
1 karakas
1 the tabernacle at pendrell vale
2 Savannah
1 forest
1 plains
4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors

I didn't play the deck in this iteration. It felt like the smokestack package wasn't at it's best without all the lock pieces (I love brown Stax, tangle wire <3 ), and also like the advantage of the GSZ toolbox was kind of being ignored.

I have read this thread through a few times, and I was really intrigued by the mats_ deck with exploration. I love lands, and one of my favorite decks to play is 12 post with exploration. This list is an example although not exactly as I have played it: mtgtop8 link (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=12628&d=273054&f=LE)

So that brings us here, what I'll be playing next time I get a chance to play legacy, so Friday at the latest:
Exploratiovator (https://deckbox.org/sets/1770871)

I've been goldfishing, and I think it might want a green source or two more. Sideboard is 15 cards that i thought some number might be good to have, obviously not running 1 of each leyline of sanctity and the void.

Nut draws make titania, protector of argoth and as many as 2 tokens on turn 2. Lotus cobra makes for some bananas turns in conjunction with tireless tracker or titania. The card advantage generated between courser of kruphix, Azusa, exploration, horizon canopy, and tracker is formidable, and this deck really chews itself up. In goldfishing you can have 30 permanents in play and a full grip in turns 4 - 6 if things come up hot.

Without chalice or any spheres in the main board I will be very soft to combo game one of course, maybe a main deck bojuka bog to get reanimator and past in flames decks. Wishing for a green Thalia... Any suggestions?



I am looking forward to the real test of deathrite shaman, now that top is banned he seems the be legacy gatekeeper... And I'm relying on the graveyard.

I will post back after playing some games.

[Barook]

@morgan_coke: The complete lack of MD creature removal outside of Warping Wail sounds troublesome.

@Highexalted: Lotus Cobra sounds interesting in this kind of shell - aside from fixing mana, ramping into degeneracy (Titania, Tracker + clue shenanigans, powering up a Ballista) might be cool.

[Megadeus]

There's not a green Thalia, but you can play thorn as a colorless non legendary Thalia

[P210]

@morgan_coke

I like that list, I tried some similar straightforward mono green stompy. My problem were always a bad lategame, if I couldn't kill/lock-out my opponent early or the lack of removal for bigger threads...
I'd suggest 1-2 Zuran Orb for the sideboard, if burn is a problem. Also I prefer Thragtusk as mainboard lifegain cause of the single green mana, but depending on the meta Baloth may be the right choice...
How good does Realms Uncharted work?

[morgan_coke]

@morgan_coke

I like that list, I tried some similar straightforward mono green stompy. My problem were always a bad lategame, if I couldn't kill/lock-out my opponent early or the lack of removal for bigger threads...
I'd suggest 1-2 Zuran Orb for the sideboard, if burn is a problem. Also I prefer Thragtusk as mainboard lifegain cause of the single green mana, but depending on the meta Baloth may be the right choice...
How good does Realms Uncharted work?

It's good at deck thinning and CA and setting you up for big plays. It's bad at finding "this land i need right now"

[maharis]

Went 3-1 last night, got lots of camera time.

Storm W 2-0
Video: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/165525725?t=01m11s
Game 1: Turn 1 Chalice 1 and 0, eventually stick Thorn, win with Copter beatz
Game 2: Turn 1 Thorn, turn 3 Choke

Grixis Delver W 2-0
Game 1: Turn 1 Chalice 1, he never gets a second land besides Volc, I flood on lock pieces while he runs stuff into chalice hoping he can draw Sea and Angler, but eventually Revoker and Arbor get there
Game 2: He leads on Delver, forces a Chalice, but I stay afloat until 2 life thanks to Choke, kill the Delver with Ratchet Bomb and stick a Baloth to win.

Miracles W 2-1
Video: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/165525725?t=01h53m09s
Game 1 (not on camera): I think it's going OK but he just makes a bunch of land drops and miracles Entreat
Game 2: He gets stuck on mana, so do I, but I recover faster and eventually win with Titania
Game 3: He mulls to 3

Lands L 0-2
Video: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/165525725?t=02h27m58s
This is pretty terrible all around, he has t1 Exploration in both games. I try to sandbag in game 1 to get chalice on 2 but make a sequencing error that kills that idea and eventually get marit laged. In game 2 I gamble that I can stop a tracker before it gets out of control and lose that bet.

Deck ran nicely last night but I think that I was a little lucky at times. I don't know about the black splash, it's either just play abrupt decay or try something else IMO, and that could be just playing the colorless removal spells like Spatial Contortion and Warping Wail. Would lose some other stuff as well but I do think the green core is good for this kind of deck as long as it can be supported with some removal. still need to find a Horizon Canopy... probably gonna have to bite the bullet and order.

2 Ramunap Excavator
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Obelisk Spider
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Thragtusk
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Scavenging Ooze

4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Smuggler's Copter
2 Ratchet Bomb

2 Sylvan Library
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Collective Brutality

1 Garruk Relentless

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
3 Forest
3 Bayou
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Dryad Arbor

3 Faerie Macabre
2 Choke
2 Dismember
1 Engineered Plague
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Gloom
1 Pulse of Murasa
1 Ground Seal
1 Diabolic Edict

[Megadeus]

Went 3-1 again tonight. Lost to Grixis control, beat burn (wow pretty lucky!), parfait, and storm. Got storm with newly added Warping Wails. He ad nauseams and I get his infernal after the fact with it. Game 1 I revoked LED and that plus Scooze kept him at bay long enough. Burn I ran my first Goyf into bolt, second one was a 5/6 thanks to Eidolon. As sweet as Copter is, it may get cut. It's just underwhelming at times. It's super hit or miss. For a deck already plagued by variance it may be weak. Dunno what else to replace it with though. Maybe Ballista?

[Barook]

Your build is a bit different, but yes, Ballista would probably be a good addition.

[maharis]

I think Copter is great. It's just so insane with fetch arbor, basically a Delver that finds you a better threat. You have Warping Wail too which seems really good with it (I am considering trying that as well). Ballista is a good card but I don't know how much we can really exploit it. Ancient Tomb adds up...

[Highexalted]

I played the deck at FNM tonight, our local FNM isn't legacy but there are always a few players to be found. Unfortunately, the death and taxes player I really wanted to try out left early, and I ended up playing 2 matches against Reanimator. I went 0 - 2, 1 - 2, losing both matches, but the games were close. List is here: https://deckbox.org/sets/1770871 I ended up on a sideboard of

3 trinisphere
2 choke
3 krosan grip
2 thorn of amythest
1 bojuka bog
4 swords to plowshares

Playing reanimator, I wished for a main deck bojuka bog of course, and a maze of ith would also have been welcome for the non-legendary beaters his deck presented. I like city of traitors better than ancient tomb, I think I will flip the numbers from 3 tomb, 2 ciity to 3 city, 2 tomb. Courser of kruphix doesn't do squat in the reanimator match, i hated drawing him.

sideboarding, match one

in: 2 choke
3 trinisphere
2 thorn

out: 1 knight of the reliquary
1 courser of kruphix
2 armageddon
1 ramunap excavator
1 tireless tracker
1 temple garden

unfortunately, my opponent heard me tell another player, who had just opened the choke invocation, "I have two of those tonight!" and he brought in stormtide leviathan. feels bad, man. Oh, and when I fetched my first land I realised I left the bog in the SB. It didn't come up, but still.

sideboarding, match 2

in: 1 bojuka bog
1 swords to plowshares
3 trinisphere
2 thorn of amythest

out: 1 knight of the reliquary
1 courser of kruphix
2 armageddon
1 ramunap excavator
1 tireless tracker
1 temple garden

The game that i managed to win involved an uncounterable GSZ into prime time, for karakas and tabernacle.

This deck feels fine! I was sure I was walking in with a deck that would fold to any disruption, but there are enough pieces that are generating card advantage that you only need one or two to stick, and especially in this match up the dark depths combo had my opponent allowing more minor pieces to resolve. Don't want to force the exploration or the ramunap when they might just marit lage or titania you out of nowhere.

I thought I would want an umezawa's jitte or two, to make my green 2/3's and 2/4's relevant, and maybe I do, but not vs reanimator.

This deck makes a lot of mana, floating city mana, dropping a land, then replaying it from the graveyard, lotus cobra, etc, etc. Ballista would be a fine addition, but what to cut without screwing up the GSZ package? Maybe the courser, and a ramunap.

edit: Game 1, match 1, I made turn two titania, protector of argoth and two 5/3 tokens. He drew out with griselbrand and tidespouted his way to barely winning.... and I had misplayed city of traitors, costing me a token. Salted myself for sure.

edit 2: Opponent was running some weird sideboard creatures, and two of them came up big... empiryeal archangel (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=175104) ate a lethal marit lage attack, on top of the stormtide (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=383405) i already mentioned. brutal.

[Highexalted]

played against brain478 on mtgo tonight, their list had thalia, chalice, azusa, arbor, gsz, scooze... I have ANT on mtgo and I got worked.

[abombdiggity]

This is the list me, brains478, and mzfroste have been playing around with on MTGO for the past week or so. Highexalted played us against the list last night and mentioned y’all were playing around with Azuza and Ramunap Excavator, so I figured I would pop in with some results and the 75, even though it’s more comparable to a black-less aggro loam than it is the old Sylvan Plug style lists that are being adapted here. The list started out as a clunky attempt to leverage Ramunap Excavator, Azusa, and Lotus Cobra into a top end of Titania, Protector of Argoth and Primeval Titan. That ended up being a little too swingy, but we’ve been modifying the decklist as we go to make up for some of the problems with our initial build.


Maindeck (60)
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
2 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Ramunap Excavator
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Crop Rotation
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Life from the Loam
3 Punishing Fire
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
1 Sylvan Library
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dark Depths
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
2 Ghost Quarter
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Plains
3 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Thespian's Stage
4 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath

Sideboard (15)
1 Crop Rotation
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Fiery Justice
3 Krosan Grip
3 Sphere of Resistance
2 Choke


A couple notes about the current 75 in comparison to the builds from this thread-

We’re obviously a three-color deck, although red’s a very light splash. Our mana is a bit worse, and we are much weaker to Blood Moon and Back to Basics, however we trade that for a much more robust removal suite to allow more flexibility in dealing with the creatures that slip underneath the lock pieces, which are also less numerous in this build, just 2 Thalia, Teeg, and 4 Chalice MD and the Spheres in the board. As the mana is so color intensive, we are forced to eschew Sol Lands and thus cannot afford to run Trinisphere/Smokestack. This build does not need to lean as heavily on colorless artifact or as many spells/creatures with 2 colorless in their mana costs (although in a more Rotation heavy build an Ancient Tomb would help give more broken starts- it is definitely on the radar).

The big draws to white are an increased diversity in combo hate in Thalia and Teeg, as well as boosting the removal- we have a sweeper that doesn’t kill our Azuza and our other creatures, an efficient way to deal with bigger creatures like Angler and Goyf, and Knight, which has a ton of synergy with the rest of the deck.

Have 4 leagues with this deck in its current iteration- two 2/3s, a 3-2, a 4-1, as well as a 3-3 in this weeks’ legacy challenge (33rd on breakers, thanks Obama), and several of the losses can be attributed to learning the deck and playstyle as I go, as it’s very dissimilar to my typical Elves.

[maharis]

Ran it back. Cut a tracker, spider and garruk for 2 spatial contortion and deathrite shaman.

Best show and tell with thorn/GQ lock g1 and rec sage lucksack on his Omni g2

Played Aluren each of next two rounds, lost both. Tough matchup but I think I will switch Thorns to Spheres just in case (fairly popular deck here)

Lost to storm when deck petered out and I couldn't close the game before he decayed my chalice on 2 hurkyl'sed my other lock pieces and won.

So not the best showing but I'm gonna chalk that up to some bad matchup luck. I picked up some spheres to replace thorns since Aluren is so popular at the moment, may try a split.

I still think Copter is great. Spatial Contortion was also excellent. I picked up some Warping Wails to test as well. May have to pull the trigger on another City and cut black entirely though... still figuring it out.

Not at all impressed with Tracker. Never seem to want it off GSZ and don't always have lands in hand when I can cast it. May move that around as well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[maharis]

Kind of feel like this thread petered out but I think the deck has legs.

Obviously green doesn't do a lot on its own but the selection of GSZ and Library is crucial. I trimmed back my black splash quite a bit last night to this mostly G/<> list:

2 Ramunap Excavator
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Thragtusk
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Dryad Arbor

3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
2 Spatial Contortion
2 Warping Wail

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
2 Sphere of Resistance
2 Smuggler's Copter
2 Ratchet Bomb

4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Forest
2 Windswept Heath
2 Ghost Quarter
2 City of Traitors
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Bayou

Sideboard:
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Choke
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Gloom
1 Ground Seal
1 Krosan Grip
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Pulse of Murasa
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Removal is so crucial right now and I think the colorless cards are great for what we're trying to do with ramp. Anyway, three rounds...

R1 Maverick lose die roll
G1 I just get obliterated by the value
G2 The colorless removal lines up well against his Mom draw. I find Gloom to keep him off STP and knight and win with copter
G3 He mulls to 5 and I go ham with Titania

R2 Jund lose die roll
G1 He values me into oblivion, he has like 8 permanents to my 2 and I pack it in
G2 25 power of Elementals beats less than that of Goyfs
G3 Same as G1. This is tough matchup

R3 Grixis Delver lose die roll
G1 Force him to expend resources to keep Chalice off the table and pull ahead with superior ramp/elementals
G2 Ancient Tomb strikes again, I put myself to 15 before he even lands a threat but then can't keep my head above water
G3 Thragtusk and Copter combine to go over the top of TNN

So 2-1 overall. I still think Copter is excellent for ripping through the deck and providing early pressure with Dryad Arbor. But the key card is Titania, it completely flips the board state and is just ridiculous with fetches, canopy, city. My favorite move is to bring back a fetch, they attack thinking I'll just make an elemental and chump, I fetch to make the elemental but get Arbor and block with that, then get a second elemental to untap with when it dies.

I don't think I played an excavator all night last night but I definitely had a zenith for it countered vs Grixis. I boarded out all my Chalices and Spheres in all rounds. Chalice is good in the fair matchups when they don't have sideboard for it but I'd rather just have some more hate. Choke is especially nice against the blue decks.

[Barook]

I've found Grasping Dunes in the Sylvan Plug discussion. Seems interesting - while not as powerful as Cabal Pit, not requiring threshold or black mana seems huge. But maybe it's too slow, who knows.

[P210]

I've found Grasping Dunes in the Sylvan Plug discussion. Seems interesting - while not as powerful as Cabal Pit, not requiring threshold or black mana seems huge. But maybe it's too slow, who knows.

Adding utility lands, which are reusable via Excavator sounds good, I always enjoyed recurring manlands in stax shells.
The question is, what to cut?
Reduce the sol-land count will slow the deck down, less green sources causes problems with casting the colored stuff. And cutting Wastelands does not appear like an option for me...^^

[Barook]

The Planeswalker rule change is a pretty interesting one. In particular Garruk Relentless/Garruk, The Veil-Cursed got a massive upgrade because it's now possible to have both sides on the battlefield. That seems fanatastic as he's both a grind card and removal.

[MD.Ghost]

The Planeswalker rule change is a pretty interesting one. In particular Garruk Relentless/Garruk, The Veil-Cursed got a massive upgrade because it's now possible to have both sides on the battlefield. That seems fanatastic as he's both a grind card and removal.

@Barook

Yeah i think Planeswalker Rule can be a nice fit here. I would also try to keep it super simple - stay mono green ^^

// 60 Maindeck

// 11 Artifact
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Mox Diamond

// 13 Creature
4 Walking Ballista
3 Ramunap Excavator
3 Obstinate Baloth
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Master of the Wild Hunt

// 6 Enchantment
3 Sylvan Library
3 Choke

// 23 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
6 Forest
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 City of Traitors
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Horizon Canopy

// 4 Planeswalker
4 Garruk Relentless

// 3 Sorcery
3 Green Sun's Zenith

// 15 Sideboard
SB: 1 Reclamation Sage
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Qasali Slingers
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 3 Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 Thought-Knot Seer
SB: 3 Dismember
SB: 2 Warping Wail

Its more or less good old Plug-Shell with new Upgrades: Walking Ballista (awesome Stompy Removal-Manasink-Finisher); Garruk Relentless (Removal, Tutor, Win-Con and stackable with the new rule), Ramunap Excavator (Crucible that can beat and tutorable with Zenith).

I keep the rest simple to avoid high variance draws and afterall the only real thing mono green can't offer is a solid sweeper (which can be fit in with a Splash if needed). Yeah Zenith is often use to fit as many 1offs as possible but it will also lead to a lot of random stuff because you can't always tutor up the right piece. As you can see, Maindeck/Sideboard cards are also easy to switch if meta isn't the right to start with maindeck choke/sphere etc.

[Ulysse95]

Don't you want to run buried ruin ? Allows you to get back ballista or a lock piece, and again with ramunap.

[morgan_coke]

Would not Sorcerous Spyglass be better than Trinisphere? Easier to play t1, really screws with opposing manabases.

[MD.Ghost]

Don't you want to run buried ruin ? Allows you to get back ballista or a lock piece, and again with ramunap.

Yeah but i think you must decide which utility/non-color lands you want, you still need Gx mana. Plug cutted down to 3 ancient tomb and only 2 mox, with ramunap we can go up and already are back to city of traitors too - i would pick Volrath's Stronghold over Buried Ruin since both get back Ballista but getting back creatures will be more important than lockpieces. I currently have 1off Ghost Quarter in the 2nd City of Traitors slot.


Would not Sorcerous Spyglass be better than Trinisphere? Easier to play t1, really screws with opposing manabases.

Feel free to test it, as you mentioned it is faster and easier to cast T1 and can also hit Deathrite opener on the draw (one of the real deals) and is never dead. Trinisphere itself can also be really nasty. Depends on the meta. If i find time i maybe try the switch.

-------

My latest list:

// 61 Maindeck

// 10 Artifact
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Mox Diamond

// 14 Creature
3 Ramunap Excavator
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Obstinate Baloth
3 Walking Ballista
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Verdurous Gearhulk
1 Eternal Witness

// 3 Enchantment
3 Sylvan Library

// 23 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Forest
4 Wasteland
1 City of Traitors
2 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Swamp
1 Ghost Quarter

// 4 Planeswalker
4 Garruk Relentless

// 7 Sorcery
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Collective Brutality

// 15 Sideboard
SB: 2 Thought-Knot Seer
SB: 3 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Spike Weaver
SB: 1 Reclamation Sage
SB: 1 Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 2 To the Slaughter
SB: 2 Massacre

Added the proven Black Splash from Plug for more removal/interaction and moved some cards around. Garruk Relentless works really solid now after the last upgrades (Decay immun and "stackable"). Thrun is the current flex slot at side. Choke destroy every greedy Cz.Pile so far but Sorcerous Spyglass might be better if you need more interaction against DDepths Combo.

[square_two]

@MD.Ghost have you tried Trackers? I've done a few random green stompy-ish shells and have always been impressed by her. (shells like, BG Helm combo fit, this Ramunap stompy, BUG Fit with a playset, etc) I'm wondering how often the Baloths really matter, and if it would be worth it to sacrifice the lifegain/discard shenanigans for raw card draw. I could be wrong though, but I'd assume that with Trackers the need to draw with Library would be reduced.

Then again, I feel like I'm seeing a few more Hymns these days online, so maybe the Baloths pull their weight.

[MD.Ghost]

@MD.Ghost have you tried Trackers? I've done a few random green stompy-ish shells and have always been impressed by her. (shells like, BG Helm combo fit, this Ramunap stompy, BUG Fit with a playset, etc) I'm wondering how often the Baloths really matter, and if it would be worth it to sacrifice the lifegain/discard shenanigans for raw card draw. I could be wrong though, but I'd assume that with Trackers the need to draw with Library would be reduced.

Then again, I feel like I'm seeing a few more Hymns these days online, so maybe the Baloths pull their weight.

Yeah manawise he Tracker fits very well but for me casting him often feels not aggressiv enough. First of he doesnt interact with your opponent and he needs an investment, Droping lands and pay 2 should work in most cases but it isnt guaranteed and as i said it needs mana too which means you draw cards (good ability) but maybe can't play other stuff if you also play against Wasteland/Port/Daze or doesnt get the right hands as a stompy deck. A 3/2 is simply not good, a 4/3 sounds better but still dies to all removal around and is only bigger than the small legacy dudes etc.

Baloth is a 4/4 which means Decay/Bolt immun (which leaves often push&swords) and will only be smaller than Gofy/Angler, can race TNN or block BSkull. I tried Plug without Baloth (but still with Courser of Kruphix for life), but as a stompy deck you often invest life/cards until you manage to bring the game under control. Gain back 4 life can be relevant, especially vs Delver Decks. Baloth also allow to draw cards with Library, play Toxic Deluge and invest Tomb Mana into bigger stuff, pump Ballista etc. Without lifegain as a backup you will often die if your start is countered/removed and you are behind on the battlefield. Hymn/Liliana is a small bonus the 4c Pile Matchup is already super good!

[Megadeus]

I'm guessing this deck nver turned out to be good enough? I had some success locally with my BG Eldrazi hybrid build, but it was pretty far off from what everyone else was on. Just curious if anyone else is still working on this or if the hype on crucible man has died down

[maharis]

I'm guessing this deck nver turned out to be good enough? I had some success locally with my BG Eldrazi hybrid build, but it was pretty far off from what everyone else was on. Just curious if anyone else is still working on this or if the hype on crucible man has died down

I'm considering bringing it back, I just got discouraged when I couldn't beat aluren and quit on it for a while haha

I actually thought about a punishing version with some Eldrazi because grove produces colorless and Pfire gets around chalice. I just haven't had enough time to get all the cards out and see what it would look like.

[Dice_Box]

I'm guessing this deck nver turned out to be good enough? I had some success locally with my BG Eldrazi hybrid build, but it was pretty far off from what everyone else was on. Just curious if anyone else is still working on this or if the hype on crucible man has died down

I was thinking about this the other day and never got around to messing with it. I think it still has a lot of promise.

[Claymore]

http://mythicspoiler.com/rix/cards/waywardswordtooth.jpg

[Dice_Box]

I don't think it suddenly fixes any issues, but shows promise that the deck has promise.

[contra]

Anyone still playing this deck? I've been messing around a bit with the following list to some success... I went 4-1, 0-3 and 3-2 in leagues. Eldrazi is a hard MU when they have aggressive draws.

Creatures (18)
4 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
3 Ranumap Excavator
4 Tireless Tracker
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
2 Garrock Relentless
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Reclamation Sage

Search/Filter (10)
4 Sylvan Library
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Living Wish

Artifacts (8)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond

Lands (24)
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
8 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
2 Horizon Canopy

Sideboard
3 Trinisphere
3 Crop Rotation
2 Choke
1 Glacial Casm
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Phyrexian Revoker

[Dice_Box]

I tinker with it, but I have mostly switched to a version with Smokestack so I can abuse that.

[contra]

I tinker with it, but I have mostly switched to a version with Smokestack so I can abuse that.

I'd be interested in seeing that list if you could share

[Dice_Box]

//Creatures:
2 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Deadly Recluse/Skylasher
4 Ramunap Excavator
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth

//Sorceries:
4 Green Sun's Zenith

//Artifacts:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
3 Smokestack
2 Smuggler's Copter
3 Trinisphere

//Lands:
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
1 Crystal Vein
1 Dryad Arbor
7 Forest
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills

//Planeswalkers:
2 Garruk Relentless

//Sideboard:
2 Beast Within
3 Choke
1 Krosan Grip
2 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Sylvan Library
4 Thorn of Amethyst