Ruby Storm

[Rampart]

Play a bunch of matches (like 25-30), and then you can do some theorizing about what to cut and add.

This comes off poorly. You answered my question. Tendrils is not nessassry but it's nice to have. Thanks

[vieko]

I am not looking to argue either tbh. I guess what I am trying to ask is the following: tendrils accounts for roughly 60% of your kills. Why is that? Is it because it was easy? Is it a personal preference? Is it because it saves you some clicks? Is it because it was the only card that could get the win? Out of that 60% how many times was tendrils "nessassary"

Against not looking to beat someone with a stick, just looking for a more compressive answer I guess

Tendrils of Agony is a convenient, lower risk, easy-to-get-to kill. It is definitively not the only card that gets the job done. IMHO, storm is less about fancy kills and mostly about efficiency. Tendrils is 10-storm more efficient that Grapeshot, 11 spells cheaper than War Strike (assuming you already had the Empty handy) and one turn faster than 20 goblins (provided they stick around long enough to connect). Is it necessary? For the purposes of this deck performing optimally, I would say it is.

[solnox]

Tendrils is a lot easier to kill with than Grapeshot. Most of the time, if your opponents have interaction reaching the 20 storm count is quite difficult.

[Krasman]

Posting a report for my main man Vieko; I played a Full Fury version of the deck again at a legacy win a box w/ 10 people.

Deck List
Business:
4x Hazoret's Undying Fury
4x Burning Wish
4x Reforge the Soul
3x Past in Flames
3x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1x Act on Impulse

Mana:
4x Ruby Medallion
4x Lotus Petal
3x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Rite of Flame
2x Pyretic Ritual
4x Manamorphose
4x Seething Song

Acutal Mana:
4x Ancient Tomb
12x Mountain

Sideboard:
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Grapeshot
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Past in Flames
1x Goblin War Strike
2x Sudden Demise
3x Pyroclasm
3x Scab-Clan Berserker
2x Act of Impulse

I had a Hazoret's Undying Fury over one Act of Impulse, and the Act in the deck, but last minute decided that 4 is always the right choice for the main deck

I wanted to make room for Ignite Memories and / or Telemin's Preformance for more sideboard shenanigans.

Tournament:
Rd 1 - Miracles 2-1 (the deck is very counter proof due to all the draws and flashbacks)
Rd 2 - ANT 2-1 (Scab-Clan Berserker won G3 by itself basically)
Rd 3 - D&T 2-1 (in G1 I had to cast 3x Reforge and 2x Hazoret's Fury to find Chandra to kill Prelate on 2)
Rd 4 - Twin Blade 2-0
T4 - Twin Blade 2-0
Finals - MUD Post - ID

__________________________________________________________________

I was first seed going into top 4

Top 4 - Twin Blade
G1 - combo into an insane amount of goblins T3 on the play

G2 - I see this hand:
https://preview.ibb.co/gdRxhF/20793044_10102186584330497_518526809_n.jpg (https://ibb.co/k8Vewa)

As I am super greedy and I feel like this is a good hand I keep it. And of course I draw a Mountain just like I planned it out.

Play Mountain and cast Lotus Petal and sac it (RR)
Cast Ruby Medallion
Exile Simian Spirit Guide (R)
Cast Mana Morphose (RR) - draw Mountain
Cast Seething Song (RRRRR)
Cast Ruby Medallion (RRR)
Cast Reforge the Souls

Draw:
Lotus Petal, Pyretic Ritual, Burning Wish, Chandra Torch of Defiance & 3 lands
Cast Lotus Petal and sac (R)
Cast Pyretic Ritual (RRR)
Cast Chandra, Torch of Defiance (R)
Activate Chandra mana ability (RRR)
Cast Burning Wish (RR) and fetch Empty the Warrens
Cast Empty the Warrens for storm 11 for 22 goblins on T1

#Winning
https://preview.ibb.co/bXDGba/20839798_10102186594634847_965196438_o.jpg (https://ibb.co/iMAJpv)

In the finals I ask to redistribute the prizing so that winner takes all, 1x booster box and 40$ store credit, my opponent declines so I offer the split and he accepts.

[Dan Pyre]

Hey folks, been following the thread for awhile and finally wanted to give my experiences and input.

I finally put the deck together in paper and took it to the biweekly Legacy FNM at my LGS. Ended up going 4-0! While I don't intend to say my opponents were inexperienced at all, I do think that none of them had seen the deck in action before so that might have increased my chances a bit. I'm not going to try to recall half-assed details but I'll go over what I want to try to change in the deck.

Regardless, here was the list I took:

Sorcery (22)
3 Hazoret's Undying Fury
3 Past in Flames
3 Reforge the Soul
3 Act on Impulse
4 Rite of Flame
4 Burning Wish
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot

Instant (12)
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose

Creature (4)
4 Simian Spirit Guide

Artifact (8)
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ruby Medallion

Lands (14)
10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb

Sideboard (15)

Sorcery (10)
1 Hazoret's Undying Fury
1 Past in Flames
1 Reforge the Soul
1 Cave-In
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
1 Goblin War Strike
2 By Force

Instant (3)
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyrokinesis

Creature (2)
2 Scab-Clan Berserker

Round 1: High Tide - 2-1
Round 2: Grixis Delver - 2-0
Round 3: Sneak n Show - 2-0
Round 4: Grixis Delver - 2-0

Things I would currently change in my deck. The mainboard Grapeshot is pointless. If we're managing to get 20 Storm, there's no reason we shouldn't be able to access the wishboard barring Surgical effects. I'd rather make it another Empty for the 14~ ish Goblin hands.

I would drop an Act on Impulse and... something for 2 more Medallion effects. As I'm sure you all know, they're extremely powerful and I want to increase my chances of having one in my opening.

My sideboard was all over the place! The REB's helped in every matchup that night (imagine!) so I think 2, maybe 3 is a good number. I never got to effectively use the Scab-Clans but they looked great on paper versus Tide and Storm. I'm not sure the 4th Haz's is necessary in the board and I want to try Tendrils in that slot to get around Energy Field/Glacial Chasm shenanigans. Anger seems better than Pyroclasm for beating Leovold effects eventually.

While I don't have the motivation to type all the details of each match at the moment I was very easily able to power through multiple countermagic effects. Versus High Tide I forced him to burn 2 Cunning Wish to find answers instead of combo pieces very early which gave me more time to rebuild. Versus Sneak n Show I managed to sneak enough mana through a double Force turn to win. Against Grixis Delver, the Spirit Guides were able to help me bait and play through Dazes.

I think this is an incredible deck. Normally I don't play Combo/Storm decks but this one piqued my interest because it was only red AND it is strangely incredibly cheap without Chandras. The pieces only cost around $300~ if I remember correctly. That's insane for a Legacy deck that can keep up with some of the best decks in the format. Anecdotal evidence aside, of course! :)

I'll be sure to check in more as I change things around and test new cards. It might be a bit though as I've been neglecting my Goblins as of late. Have a good one, everyone!

[mistercakes]

This comes off poorly. You answered my question. Tendrils is not nessassry but it's nice to have. Thanks

I apologize. I only say this because there's a lot of comments in this thread about what the list should or shouldn't have coming from people who either haven't played the deck much or not at all.

[mistercakes]

Hey folks, been following the thread for awhile and finally wanted to give my experiences and input.

I finally put the deck together in paper and took it to the biweekly Legacy FNM at my LGS. Ended up going 4-0! While I don't intend to say my opponents were inexperienced at all, I do think that none of them had seen the deck in action before so that might have increased my chances a bit. I'm not going to try to recall half-assed details but I'll go over what I want to try to change in the deck.

Regardless, here was the list I took:

Sorcery (22)
3 Hazoret's Undying Fury
3 Past in Flames
3 Reforge the Soul
3 Act on Impulse
4 Rite of Flame
4 Burning Wish
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot

Instant (12)
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose

Creature (4)
4 Simian Spirit Guide

Artifact (8)
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ruby Medallion

Lands (14)
10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb

Sideboard (15)

Sorcery (10)
1 Hazoret's Undying Fury
1 Past in Flames
1 Reforge the Soul
1 Cave-In
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
1 Goblin War Strike
2 By Force

Instant (3)
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyrokinesis

Creature (2)
2 Scab-Clan Berserker

Round 1: High Tide - 2-1
Round 2: Grixis Delver - 2-0
Round 3: Sneak n Show - 2-0
Round 4: Grixis Delver - 2-0

Things I would currently change in my deck. The mainboard Grapeshot is pointless. If we're managing to get 20 Storm, there's no reason we shouldn't be able to access the wishboard barring Surgical effects. I'd rather make it another Empty for the 14~ ish Goblin hands.

I would drop an Act on Impulse and... something for 2 more Medallion effects. As I'm sure you all know, they're extremely powerful and I want to increase my chances of having one in my opening.

My sideboard was all over the place! The REB's helped in every matchup that night (imagine!) so I think 2, maybe 3 is a good number. I never got to effectively use the Scab-Clans but they looked great on paper versus Tide and Storm. I'm not sure the 4th Haz's is necessary in the board and I want to try Tendrils in that slot to get around Energy Field/Glacial Chasm shenanigans. Anger seems better than Pyroclasm for beating Leovold effects eventually.

While I don't have the motivation to type all the details of each match at the moment I was very easily able to power through multiple countermagic effects. Versus High Tide I forced him to burn 2 Cunning Wish to find answers instead of combo pieces very early which gave me more time to rebuild. Versus Sneak n Show I managed to sneak enough mana through a double Force turn to win. Against Grixis Delver, the Spirit Guides were able to help me bait and play through Dazes.

I think this is an incredible deck. Normally I don't play Combo/Storm decks but this one piqued my interest because it was only red AND it is strangely incredibly cheap without Chandra's. The pieces only cost around $300~ if I remember correctly. That's insane for a Legacy deck that can keep up with some of the best decks in the format. Anecdotal evidence aside, of course! :)

I'll be sure to check in more as I change things around and test new cards. It might be a bit though as I've been neglecting my Goblins as of late. Have a good one, everyone!

Thanks for the report. I think when the deck works with 14 lands (mostly to some favorable luck, the deck is really functioning like a tier 1 deck) unfortunately that hasn't always been the case and I'm much more comfortable with 15 or even 16 lands these days. I agree about the rocks and I'm pretty sure the overall consensus is no less than 6 now. I think vieko and I lost about 2 weeks trying to optimize with only 4 Ruby; it can work, but you're really pushing it. (it's compensated a little generally by running 4 probes).

I think yet another report at 4-0 and the last report resulting in splitting finals is more anecdotal evidence that the builds don't really need to be so strict.

I think it's great that you can really choose the final 10-15 cards that you want and make it your own.

@dan I'm a goblins player as well.... It just feels good winning with mountains! No fetches... No duals. Sweet!

I also have to comment that it's super impressive that you beat 4 blue decks. Congrats!

I'd prob cut the war strike and the anger of the gods for 2 more red blasts. How were those two cards for you?

I'd prob cut grapeshot and the AoI for 2 more rocks. (I'd also try to find room for another land.

@krasman, how often did you wish for AoI or side it in?


I'm happy to update opening post with non modo reports and deck lists. Will do so later today.

[Dan Pyre]

Also, I propose we properly name the deck as well. I'm sure the sentiment was mentioned earlier in the thread. Keep Mono Red Storm in parentheses for searching and ease of identification, of course.

My suggestion is 'Seething Storm.' It identifies one of the major cards that separates it from other Storm archetypes AND sounds super cool.

[mistercakes]

I am gonna go with Ruby Storm.

Ruby Medallion is the namesake card of the deck. I don't believe this deck have this kind of strength without a medallion/helm.

I believe the builds will also change a bunch over time. I moved from 4 hazoret's, to 3, to 0, to 1, and i think i'm back at 3 after seeing so many people having success with it. Modo can be a real deterrent from sticking with a list for a very long time.

Ruby is also a card that doesn't really do much, but at the same time it powers the whole deck, it really is the engine behind it.

I'll Pm a Mod to update the name.

[Krasman]

@krasman, how often did you wish for AoI or side it in?


I was actually siding in both AoI in any match that had counterspells just to have more action spells as well as when I played against creatures decks I would side in the AoI along with 2x Pyroclasm & 2x Sudden Demise (leaving 1 Pyroclasm as a wish target) Mainly due to Sudden Demise not interacting good with Fury. Sudden Demise is due to lots of D&T in the meta, and just having only Pyroclasm as a board wipe is bad due to Prelate; Cave In is another option that is castible from Fury and just might be better than Sudden Demise.

Again I only had two AoI in the board as one of them was a Fury up until the just before the tournament... last minute deciding that I needed the 4x Fury, as why else would you play this deck. Realistically I would only have 1x AoI as a target in the sideboard.

As for how often I wished for it... that did not happen at all but I can see scenarios where that might be correct. I was wishing for Tendrils the most, Past in Flames sometimes (was relevant when my 3 main deck PiF were exiled by Surgical Extraction in a couple games), and Empty the Warrens as the secondary kill condition if Tendrils was not lethal or I had no black mana. I was basically not wishing for Grapeshot at all as if my storm was big enough for that to kill then I most likely had 2x Burning Wish and killing with Goblin War Strike is much more satisfying.

I do want to find room for Telemin's Performance and Ignite Memories in the sideboard. Winning from Ignite Memories is hilariously fun, not that it is a good card. I may also want to get a Hull Breach in there to have a sideboard answer to enchantments & artifacts.

[mistercakes]

thanks for the feedback.

i think getting some more data with your decklist would be nice. it's really close to the decklist i ran at my local a few weeks back. we both ran only 4 ruby, i have 4 chandra, you are running 3, both had 16 lands etc.

generally when i lose with this deck it comes down to a few things.

1. not enough mana to start going off
2. not enough business to get through multiple counterspells
3. whiffs off of hazoret's
4. unable to deal w/ some amount of hate

the biggest issue is the consistency of the deck. sometimes hazoret's lucks out and other times it does nothing.

because of that you want to really maximize the number of hits you can get. it can be approached two ways:

1. run 4 because even if you draw multiple, hopefully you hit mana at the worst and can cast the next one.
2. run 3 and 1 in sb. you want to avoid flipping one where it will be a dead card. you also have it as a wish target.
3. run fewer than 3 because it's unreliable.

I think that vieko and I have mutually arrived to the same conclusion. It's just not reliable enough to go in on it every time. Act on Impulse and Empty the Warrens are quite a bit safer, and if a Ruby medallion is in play you are generally much better off.

Hazoret's is quite a bit stronger if you can get to 6 mana and don't have a ruby/helm in play. In that case it's probably the strongest card in the deck. That's where the main argument for 3/4 maindeck Hazoret's sits with me.

Sometimes this deck just backfires on you, which is fine. It's important to note that you will have some bad runs with Hazoret's if you choose to go that way.

That can happen with anything that isn't a direct tutor effect. Today I played in a league match on modo and cast Reforge the Soul into another Reforge and nothing else.

Then I cast the next Reforge and hit 5 mana sources and 2 Chandra. Neither of which found me any business. (needed a wish or a past in flames).

If you're okay with that then Hazoret's is version for you. Highest risk, but mega payoff. I always struggle where I'm comfortable with this list.

[vieko]

Highest risk, but mega payoff.

This sounds like something Jefferey would do ;)

[Memories of the Time]

And what would be the version "opposite" to it, the one that try to reduce variance for a lower risk?

[solnox]

I'm a fan of Red Tide as it plays like High Tide IMO

[Rampart]

And what would be the version "opposite" to it, the one that try to reduce variance for a lower risk?

Strangely enough probably run more gambles to stabilize missing pieces and work as a way to find past in flames as an engine

[mistercakes]

For the maindeck I've had success with this

4 Seething Song
4 Rite of Flame
4 Burning Wish
4 Ruby Medallion
2 Helm of Awakening
2 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Act on Impulse
4 Lotus Petal
2 Empty the Warrens
1 Desperate Ritual
3 Past in Flames
3 Reforge the Soul
4 Manamorphose
2 City of Traitors
3 Ancient Tomb
10 Mountain

It's still not perfect, and those 2 Empty the Warrens slots can be a number of different things. The Simian Spirit Guide / desperate ritual numbers can also be tweaked. Lastly if you don't mind losing to mana screw from time to time you can go down to 14 lands (cutting a sol land) for another ritual/ssg effect. (if the list is heavy on ssg, then in favor Chandra over empty.

Chandra also can flip into probe or petal with no mana open, which is usually better than 2 damage.

Magma jet is another option, as it can filter a little bit and is pretty good when it only costs R.

I have tried gamble and it's good. To run a gamble here I'd likely cut a past in flames.

Anyway, this is what I've tweaked to over many matches in magic online after losing to the variance of the hazoret's builds.

If you still want to find room for a hazoret's or two here, then I would cut either a past in flames or a Reforge.

Reforge does have similar variance.

I think one with hazoret's would end up like this

4 Seething Song
4 Rite of Flame
4 Burning Wish
4 Ruby Medallion
2 Helm of Awakening
2 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Act on Impulse
4 Lotus Petal
3 Desperate Ritual
3 Past in Flames
2 Reforge the Soul
2 Hazoret's Undying Fury
4 Manamorphose
2 City of Traitors
2 Ancient Tomb
10 Mountain

*4 tomb is fine here, it's just that with 4 probe and 4 tomb you might kill yourself. (i've taken 12 damage in 1 turn from just probes, b/c of PiF)

Act on Impulse is the brainstorm of the deck, although many times it plays like ancestral recall.

[Mr. Safety]

I got a chance to goldfish this a bunch this weekend, and here is my list (performing nicely!) I'm back up to 4 Simian Spirit Guides...and I am testing Crystal Vein instead of Ancient Tomb. Why? I lost a bunch of games to burn, games I shouldn't have lost, due to Ancient Tomb (Fireblast is a card, and I helped it win by casting a Reforge the Soul so they could refill.) In games it has been ok to lose the land; this kind of eliminates the Wasteland problem, lol, because it doesn't stick around! I use it as a 'ritual' the turn I go off or I use it t1 to land a Medallion. This was also what led me to going back to 4x SSG: I need the initial red source of mana to start the chain. It's possible that some mix of Ancient Tomb/Crystal Vein is correct (or even City of Traitors, but I don't see a functional difference on the combo turn between that and Vein.)

4x Rite of Flame
4x Seething Song
1x Desperate Ritual
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Lotus Petal
4x Manamorphose
4x Ruby Medallion
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Burning Wish
3x Empty the Warrens
3x Reforge the Soul
2x Past in Flames
2x Hazoret's Undying Fury
2x Act on Impulse
4x Crystal Vein
11x Mountain

Sideboard
1x Past in Flames
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Reforge the Soul
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Goblin War Strike
1x Grapeshot
1x Pyroclasm
1x By Force
2x Inferno Titan
4x Pyroblast
1x Rending Volley

Played roughly 10 games against Burn and Junk. Wins were mostly Tendrils wins (I had 1 win on turn 1 with natural storm, PiF and Burning Wish in hand) followed by Empty the Warrens, and one t4-5 Grapeshot win with a storm count of 25 (could have been 30+ easy...) I really want to squeeze in Past in Flames #3 maindeck, but I am unsure where to cut. Empty the Warrens down to 2 copies seems like the most natural place. I haven't had a problem with drawing into Burning Wish or Empty the Warrens, but maybe that's because I have 7 copies. Going down to 6 might cause some problems, but I think having access to Past in Flames is much more important.

I also fizzled a few games where I got greedy with too little mana available. The biggest cause of fizzling is not having a Medallion in play during the combo turn, so far in my experience. With Medallion it feels like the sky is the limit. Without it, the storm chains get much tighter. So generally speaking I find that going for a quick Warrens is the way to go with a no-Medallion draw. With Medallion it pays to wait maybe one turn, just for a little more gas and maybe 3 lands in play. Act on Impulse gets insane with Medallion in play, but its sketchy when costing the full 3. Same with Hazoret's Undying Fury. Casting it for 5 is sweet, considering the mana reduction = more mana available after it resolves. I did pull HUF while resolving HUF twice, but I still think 2 copies is the way to go. I don't think I would ever choose HUF over RtS if I was BW-ing for more gas. Drawing 7 is just better than a random 3-4 free spells (I usually get at least 1 land in the mix.)

Junk games were fine. I played through 2 Thoughtsieze and a Hymn to Tourach and still won one game. The only games I lost were to Thoughtsieze>Hymn to Tourach>Liliana, with Deathrite Shaman actively eating my graveyard. Lost 1 game out of 5, the rest were Tendrils or EtW wins. I like the resiliency to discard. Go go Past in Flames! Post-board games were EtW or Tendrils wins sans-PiF.

Important note: I learned very quickly that discarding a Burning Wish when resolving Reforge the Soul is ok. If BW gets played it gets exiled, so Past in Flames doesn't allow for a re-play. If PiF is the plan, in the graveyard is just as good as in-hand. I am writing this because I was torn in some situations where I could cast Reforge the Soul OR Burning Wish, but not both and still have 4 mana left over for EtW (no Medallion in play, 5 mana floating.) Storm count was only at 2, so BW into EtW would have only gotten 8 goblins (meh.) I went for RtS, discarding Burning Wish...and ripped Past in Flames plus plenty of gas. This is why I want the 3rd Past in Flames, it sets up for much more reliable wins with RtS.

EDIT: Act on Impulse is indeed Ancestral Recall, lol. I love that it allows until end of turn. HUF, to my knowledge, only allows the cards to be played immediately while HUF is resolving (if I am interpreting it correctly.) They are still cast, so storm count goes up, but you don't have until eot to play the stuff (if I did it would be even better!)

[mistercakes]

good post here. i think that CoT/Tomb/Vein all have their merits. The biggest downside of vein is playing a turn 1 rock. CoT also can struggle if played turn 1...tomb is optimal but life loss is not negligible.

hazoret's spells need to be cast immediately upon the resolution of hazoret's reveal. in modo you click the order in which you want them to go on the stack (last clicked will be first to resolve)

one thing to note about discard Wish with a reforge is that wish can get surgical'd when you cast your first spell after reforge has resolved.

also you mention that with ruby the sky is the limit....so why not try to run more than 4? i am currently on 6.

[Mr. Safety]

good post here. i think that CoT/Tomb/Vein all have their merits. The biggest downside of vein is playing a turn 1 rock. CoT also can struggle if played turn 1...tomb is optimal but life loss is not negligible.

hazoret's spells need to be cast immediately upon the resolution of hazoret's reveal. in modo you click the order in which you want them to go on the stack (last clicked will be first to resolve)

one thing to note about discard Wish with a reforge is that wish can get surgical'd when you cast your first spell after reforge has resolved.

also you mention that with ruby the sky is the limit....so why not try to run more than 4? i am currently on 6.

Yes, the Helm of Awakening discussion. I knew this was coming, and of course right after I feel like the list has settled!

I think in the matchups that are hardest (tempo, control) Helm literally does nothing to help opponents. Brainstorm, DRS, Spell Pierce, Force of Will, Thoughtseize, Daze...these are either free already or cost only one specifically colored mana to cast. A Jace/Liliana a turn earlier doesn't do too much damage, honestly. Against some decks, a turn 1 Helm could literally make us lose the game unless we're going off (Stompy/Moon/Chalice decks, including Eldrazi, Death & Taxes, Storm, Sneak & Show.) Some matchups it will only help us, others it fucks us sideways. I'm torn...and I don't know how to squeeze it in! As I said, the list has settled for me considerably. I think part of my waffling came from the lousy AI program that Magic Workstation uses. I have had significantly better, and yet more random, with paper cards sleeved up.

[mistercakes]

Someone on discord asked me if I had tried running 1 rof in the sb.

I had a list earlier in the thread with 4 haz and 2 rof, 13 lands and 4 Helm. I cut 2 Helm, changed sorcery to 3/3, put 2 more mountains in and here's that list.

// 60 Maindeck
// 12 Artifact
4 Ruby Medallion
2 Helm of Awakening
4 Lotus Petal

// 4 Creature
4 Simian Spirit Guide

// 12 Instant
4 Manamorphose
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song

// 13 Land
11 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb

// 19 Sorcery
4 Burning Wish
3 Past in Flames
3 Reforge the Soul
3 Act on Impulse
3 Hazoret's Undying Fury
3 Rite of Flame

Sb is a bit dated. (was from before I used tendrils)

// 15 Sideboard
// 4 Enchantment
SB: 4 Blood Moon

// Artifact
SB: 4 Defense Grid

// 7 Sorcery
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Reforge the Soul
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 2 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Fiery Confluence
SB: 1 Rite of Flame

[Mr. Safety]

I think if you're fetching a ritual from the board, it needs to net a bunch of mana.

Inner Fire
Mana Seism

Those are the only cards that I can think of that would conditionally give you more mana after paying 3 to get/play it. Even if you are fetching the 2nd Rite of Flame, you are only breaking even (gaining 1 mana with Medallion/Helm out.)

How do we feel about Mana Flare on the combo turn? It would need 3 lands to really be worth the trouble, I think. I wish there was a redundant one-sided Medallion effect, lol. They've reprinted a ton of functional reprints, why no these?

[mistercakes]

mana seism isn't so bad if you wish for it the turn before you combo. that's usually what the sb rite of flame was for when i was experimenting for those builds. the other option is when you flip a wish with hazoret's, but need some more mana to continue comboing. (in that case, seism is also going to be just as good, although you will lose a R for likely 1-3 colorless mana. good spot on that.

i think it's possible the reason they didn't make functional reprints of these is because they are pretty unfair cards. it did have its moment with sapphire medallion many years ago for all the old 1x players who are on this thread. (RU Trix) was a deck.

[Mr. Safety]

I think if the chain fizzles I'd rather just Wish for Past in Flames, which can usually win next turn. That card is nuts.

I was also thinking of doing something that was akin to the Wildfire idea, something backbreaking that could buy extra turns (or simply put the opponent out of the game.)Wildfire is sweet, maybe one of these:

Apocalypse
Burn at the Stake
Boom//Bust
Destructive Force
Jokulhaups
Obliterate
Last Chance


Burning Wish for Last Chance seems really sexy, lol.

Also, how did you settle on 'Ruby Storm' for a name?

[mistercakes]

It's the card you always want to see. Is it not?

It also makes the deck viable.

edit: was thinking about fast versions of this deck, like how i originally conceived it. it might be worth exploring again as all my old versions contained 4 helm and 4 ruby, and it might be okay just to play 6.

4 ruby medallion
2 helm of awakening
3 desperate ritual
4 simian spirit guide
4 lotus petal
4 seething song
4 manamorphose

4 rite of flame
3 past in flames
2 gamble
4 burning wish
2 hazoret's undying fury
2 reforge the soul
4 act on impulse

10 mountain
4 sol lands

i could be wrong....maybe 2 past in flames and 3 of either hazoret's or reforge the soul here.

sb is more of the same. just make sure the steady wish targets are still there and then there's about 6-9 flex spots after that.

[drinkard]

Someone got there! 5-0 by mtgo user Rampart! Is he in this thread?

Edit: oops I see he is just a few posts up. Congrats!

[mistercakes]

thanks @rampart!

finally on the map!

reeeeeeport :P and any changes to the 75?

[vieko]

thanks @rampart!

Finally on the map!

Reeeeeeport :p and any changes to the 75?

congrats rampant!

[Rampart]

Lots of changes to the 75. Putting my daughter down. I will right something up a little later tonight for those that are interested

edit: looking at it, its not a lot of changes but feels like a lot

[solnox]

Congrats :)

It was only a matter of time this happened

[Rampart]

short report

TES 2-1 win the roll
Game 1 – turn one reforge screws him a little bit, and I PIF kill on turn two
Game 2 – He makes a bunch of goblins and I am one mana short on the final turn for the kill
Game 3 – I make a berserker which pushes his life low, but he makes a bunch of goblins and bounces my berserker, I draw out of it with a small grapeshot for the kill

High Tide 2-0 I win the roll
Game 1 – I have more threats then he has counter spells and attrition him out
Game 2 – more of the same, I am more threat dense and opp has to use 3 fow to keep him dying but it didn’t matter. PIF is really good.

Elves 2-0 I lose the roll
Game 1 – he drops an elf turn one, I play a ruby, he does something not important and I grapeshot him for 20 plus, could have been 50
Game 2 – he plays an elf. I play a mountain and a pair of petal, he plays arbor and attacks me. I cast wish for gamble to set up and pass. He plays a glimpse and floods the boards with dudes but can’t do anything relevant. I go off and cave in his board, generate 50 goblins and grapeshot him for 30 plus

RUG Delver 2-1 I win the roll
Game 1 - I play helm turn one, he plays ponder, I grape shot him for 40 on my turn
Game 2 – he play delver, I play around daze and play a ruby, he flips and hits me, I start to go off and walk right into a stifle on grapeshot, not a leathal grapeshot, but just one that suppresses his dudes. I played poorly there and it was my game to win. He bolts me and spell pierces my next play which is a reforge, then I get bolted to death
Game 3 – we play draw go for a little bit until my turn five where he has a goose and just deployed a delver. I start to combo but a will timed FOW slows me down enough where I can only grapeshot for 15, I kill him next turn.

UWR Delver 2-1 – lost the roll I think. Its the realmongoosehours guys. You can watch there video on twitch. It’s the first match
https://www.twitch.tv/realmongoosehours - Link for the landing – in past broadcasts under
[legacy} secret stream tell no one bout this BIG ZOO || !pile for list || flashpointesports.gg • 22 hours ago

They gets some things wrong about the game 1, where I start to combo off, I basically had it the whole time, but they don’t realize it. game 2 and 3 are pretty true to form.

About the list.
I would basically make the following changes:
Plus 1 gamble, minus 1 fury

Gamble almost always over performed me, it was basically a one mana demonic tutor and helped fixed draws where I need a rock. I not sure I even want fury anymore, it’s really sweet design space but I don’t know if I need the additional payoff card. I think a second Desperate Ritual or fourth probe might be better.

Out of the sideboard I would remove the gamble and put in a second empty or a tendrils if you prefer. I really just want a 19 card sideboard and I really want a second empty in the board for post board games so I can still have access to wish for it game 2 and 3.

I think I just got lucky but the deck is really powerful. Also like Ruby Storm

[mistercakes]

Thanks for the update. I agree that gamble is really good in this deck. It is much better as well while running probes, in case you pif and want to fill up your hand before casting gamble. Tendrils is good if you hit any matchups where grapeshot can't effectively kill.

Happy you got to dodge that damn Leovold deck. It's a tough one.

Were you able to land defense grids? What was your sideboarding approach?

I'll try testing the non probe version I posted earlier, but it's probably correct to run probes and help smooth out draws.

Against the two delver decks, did you find that tomb + probes were killing yourself too much? Asking bc I'm testing 2 tomb 2 City of Traitors split.

Thanks again!

ps, it looks like if he FoW your burning wish + surgical your wishes...what outs did you have? just wondering if you had a maindeck kill during game 3. (this is vs the streamers with the annoying voices)

also! worth mentioning if you expect surgical extraction and have a tendrils in the sb you can side in the grapeshot and still have a wish wincon.

[AceOfJacks]

I know I'm "just one of those who either haven't played the deck much or not at all" but I wanted to let some of the newer pilots know that I attempted to play version of this tonight at my LGS.


List:
4 Ancient Tomb
11 Mountain

4 Lotus Petal
4 Ruby Medallion
2 Helm of Awakening

4 Rite of Flame
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Manamorphose
4 Seething Song
4 Burning Wish
3 Reforge the Soul
2 Hazoret's Undying Fury
2 Act on Impulse
2 Past in Flames
2 Overmaster
2 Gitaxian Probe
2 Gamble

Side:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Defense Grid
1 Hazoret's Undying Fury
1 Reforge the Soul
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
1 Past in Flames
1 Cave-In
1 Fiery Confluence


Rd1: Infect
G1 he is dumbfounded, I combo turn 2.
G2 he kills me turn 3, as I draw 5 lands in a row off of draw steps plus git probe and overmaster cycling.
G3 git probe reveals he has 3 lands and no gas on the turn before I combo off, and his brainstorm whiffs. I combo at 7poison.
1-0

Rd 2: 4c Delver
G1 he mulls to 5 thinking I'm playing Dragon Stompy (my usual deck) and I combo turn 3 via Tendrils.
G2 he has literally every answer in the book. Forces, multiple Deathrites, multiple Surgicals, Pyromancers with Cabal Therapy, there was just nothing I could do when he drew the right answers for multiple turns.
G3 was close, as I baited multiple counters and slogged through, but in the end his Deathrite kills me. I was not able to find a Burning Wish to kill his DRS in time, and I died to creature beats plus DRS lifeloss.
1-1

R3: Burn
G1 I combo off turn 2. He says many mean things under his breath as he twiddles his Grim Lavamancer and basic mountain, waiting for me to combo.
G2 He deploys Monastery Swiftspear and Grafdigger's Cage, but I did not need PiF to win. Act into Reforge wins turn 3. He literally drops from the tournament and temper tantrums out the store.
2-1

Rd4: Shardless
G1 he Hymns me, deploys Liliana, and I combo the next turn via Tendrils.
G2 he deploys multiple Surgicals, but on the wrong cards. However, Snapcaster plus 2x DRS is fast enough to kill me while I try to find gas.
G3, multiple Defense Grids save my ass, and I storm off but whiff on Hazorets. Next turn I try again off Reforge and I generate literally over 30 storm before he screams, "Just show me the Grapeshot please!"


Afterthoughts (or obvious things that the experienced pilots know already but I am still learning because I am a noob)
- I should probably cut Hazoret from board, and Overmasters from main, adding more Probes and more Acts. Every game I had the opportunity to Wish for Hazoret, it seemed too risky.
- Reforge g1 against counterspells is really risky, unless you have maindeck storm cards. If you give your opponent a FoW via the Reforge, and you hit something they can counter, it feels super derpy.
- Overmaster, while helping against a potential counterspell, would probably be better as Probe, so that I can know exactly what the opponent has in hand and overload them with counter targets.
- I do not know if I want SSG or not. It seems bad via Act, but seems good for potential turn 1 and 2 kills. I do not know what to cut for these though, but I'm sure my severe noobism will be reduced by more repetitions of this deck.

[mistercakes]

good report! i hope you didn't untap your lands in round 4 after your whiffed hazoret's. in paper i really have to make a mental note of it myself or else i forget. glad you got some games in.

there's a few flex spots:

3 Reforge the Soul
2 Hazoret's Undying Fury
2 Act on Impulse
2 Past in Flames
2 Overmaster
2 Gitaxian Probe
2 Gamble
4 Desperate Ritual

Between these numbers I feel like it's anyone's guess what is correct. Those are definitely the cards that could be swapped around or cut/added. Rest of the deck should remain the same. (pretty sure)

You can also cut the probes and opt for a faster version, which game 1 will play a bit more like belcher; but a version that can go into a mid game a lot better.

[Mr. Safety]

Definitely getting some Gambles for the deck, and probably Grids. For now I like Pyroblast, but Defense Grid may be better.

From my above list I will be doing this:
-1 SSG
-1 EtW (2 main, 1 side)
+1 Past in Flames (3 main, 1 side)
+1 Gamble

Sideboard
-2 Inferno Titan
+2 Scab-Clan Berserker

It seems really strong now, but Gamble is too spicy to leave on the sidelines. I haven't faced off against a bunch of tier decks yet either, just goldfishing on MWS. I think those additions will give the deck greater odds against tier decks. I like the Pyroblasts because they fight Show and Tell, kill cantrips against storm, and can fight Force of Will. Maybe, because the deck is so tight, Defense Grid is better because it helps over multiple turns. I need to try it out IRL before I get too crazy on changes.

I am going to my LGS for Legacy FNM this week, hopefully getting 4 rounds in but at least 3, with my version posted a little ways up. If I can get the Gambles/Berserkers by Friday I'll make the changes, if not, I'll run it the way it stands. Either way I'll work in the 3rd PiF maindeck, I already have that card. The empty will get cut for it, not the SSG.

[mistercakes]

sweet! good luck.

grid is prob better vs the counterspell/tempo decks because if you cast reforge you have to deal with a whole new hand of counters sometimes, and grid is just a one time effect. but it doesn't have a very good role vs decks like SNT and storm as you mentioned.

just feel comfortable playing the deck, i don't think the exact 75 is necessary at this point. there's a lot of testing and refining that will need to happen. at least we have a good amount of players willing to do that right now.

[Mr. Safety]

+1

Agreed. Super comfortable with the list; I just hope its fast/good enough to win me some games! The player base at my LGS is pretty high quality, it won't be easy.

[DeliriumFit]

Way to go Rampart!

A few questions about the list, specifically where they are different than mine:

Was a single Desperate Ritual ever lacking? I think I currently run 3, maybe could be talked about going down to 2... but 1 seems like there will be games where you'll be just short on mana.

2 Abrade - thoughts? What did it kill? Would Pyroclasm and By Force together done the same job?

No Pyroblast or REB! Seems crazy to me! One of the best cards in Legacy right now, and a reason to be playing mountains without bolts!

[Mr. Safety]

Way to go Rampart!

A few questions about the list, specifically where they are different than mine:

Was a single Desperate Ritual ever lacking? I think I currently run 3, maybe could be talked about going down to 2... but 1 seems like there will be games where you'll be just short on mana.

2 Abrade - thoughts? What did it kill? Would Pyroclasm and By Force together done the same job?

No Pyroblast or REB! Seems crazy to me! One of the best cards in Legacy right now, and a reason to be playing mountains without bolts!

Most folks here are playing Defense Grid over Pyroblast because it does work over multiple turns (definitely relevant.) I think I'm the only one playing Pyroblast right now (and pyroblast gets the nod over REB because it can target non-blue spells and still add storm count, it just doesn't do anything.)

I play a singleton Despterate Ritual. When you have a Medallion/Helm out it becomes Dark Ritual; when you don't its no better than SSG because it only adds R to your pool (albeit adding to storm count.) I think the low land count of the deck means it needs more free mana sources, unless you're playing LED's, but that's a different approach entirely. I think if you're playing LED's then Desperate Ritual becomes one of the obvious places to cut. Rite of Flame and Seething Song both net more mana, and space gets tight at that point.

[ronco]

Dumb rules question here (it has been a while since this applied to me for anything)...
With HuF, the CMC is what is printed top right, NOT what it actually takes to cast the card, right? So if you Huf into a HUF, you can't cast it regardless of the amount of helms/rubys in play, correct?

[Icapica]

Correct.

[mistercakes]

Also the cards are revealed all at once. You choose the order they go on the stack. Storm count is determined based on that order. Cards resolve in normal manner, unless if there's a split second card. Then you need a level 5 judge.

[Rampart]

1. Were you able to land defense grids? What was your sideboarding approach?

2. Against the two delver decks, did you find that tomb + probes were killing yourself too much? Asking bc I'm testing 2 tomb 2 City of Traitors split.

3. it looks like if he FoW your burning wish + surgical your wishes...what outs did you have? just wondering if you had a maindeck kill during game 3. (this is vs the streamers with the annoying voices) also! worth mentioning if you expect surgical extraction and have a tendrils in the sb you can side in the grapeshot and still have a wish wincon.

1. Yeah in a couple games, most of the time they get forced or broken, but its better the Grid then a Ruby or Helm. They make a pretty big deference becasue you can just cast them the turn before you go off, which is really nice, or it forces a certain amount of interaction while grid is on the stack. Against blue decks i take out probe for Grid, Against storm and tide i bring in Beserker as well by removing Fury's. I didn't' really sideboard for elves

2. Not really, I think the split is correct, i just don't have city's on Modo, Delver with bolts can really pressure your life total, but they need to either have flipped delver or goyf as mongoose just isn't fast enough.

3. I brought in Empty to hedge, thinking about it now it should have been a grapeshot. They did surgical my wishes btw but I made 60 goblin tokens

[mistercakes]

i'm still torn on whether i should run 11 mtn 4 sol or 10 mtn 5 sol. i think if i do go with 10 mtn then the extra spirit guide needs to be there somewhere.

thoughts?

[DeliriumFit]

Brought the deck to another Tuesday night legacy event, again 30-ish people, usually a reasonably competitive meta. I changed a few things in the list, especially the sideboard. I'll highlight the 'interesting' choices.

Hazoret Storm

Lands (15)
4x Ancient Tomb
11x Mountain

Enablers (18)
4 Burning Wish
3 Act on Impulse
2 Hazoret's Undying Fury
3 Reforge the Soul
2 Past in Flames
3 Gitaxian Probe
1 Empty the Warrens

Storm (27)
4 Ruby Medallion
3 Helm of Awakening
4 Lotus Petal
2 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
4 Rite of Flame
2 Desperate Ritual

Sideboard (15)
3x Hope of Ghirapur
2x Sulfur Elemental
1x By Force
1x Pyroclasm
1x Reforge the Soul
1x Past in Flames
2x Scab Clan Berserker
1x Grapeshot
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Tendrills of Agony
1x Tormod's Crypt

I went with 7 mana rocks with the idea that you basically always want at least one... and often, hitting extra rocks during the combo turn doesn't matter that much.

I feel like that sideboard slot can be either 3x Hope, 3x Defense Grid or 3x Pyroblast. For the love of the deck, and my contribution to this thread and to the legacy of this deck, I wanted to try out Hope of Ghirapur. Fortunately, I did face some blue decks!

The games:

2-0 VS Grixis Delver

Game 1 he pondered, I put a rock in play, then he brainstorm-pondered, then I went off with no resistance on turn 2.

Game 2 I got the Hope of Ghirapur out on turn 1... but unfortunately, after his turn 1 thought seize (or probe / cabal), my hand was mediocre. He also stalled on lands. On turn 4 or 5 I felt confident, attacked, popped the Hope, and went off.

2-1 vs Bant Stoneblade

Game 1 was a close one.... he disrupted me, daze a seething song, did some more annoying things - eventually he lands a sword and a leovold. I'm at 8 life. I have to go off. I succeed, making 54 goblins. Leoovold sure made it harder, blanking my Manamorphose and Reforge! He needs to find a Noble Hiearch to get in for the full 8 damage, but only manages 7. Goblins win!

Game 2 I kept a greedy hand and lost with no lands in play (he wastelanded my tomb)

Game 3, I turn 2 grapeshot his Noble Hiearch. Turns out this won me the game, as he stalled on mana hard. Oh and Hope of Ghirapur also let me go off safely. Win!

0-2 vs Academy Rector Esper thing?

Game 1 my deck durdles. I eventually make 12 goblins but he has maindeck Engineered Explosives. What?

Game 2 he turn 1 blind cabal's away my two Burning Wish, and then turn 2 AND 3 plays Chill...

2-0 vs Nic Fit

Poor Nic Fit guy, he just wants to do Nic Fit things. Game 1 he died quickly.

Game 2 was actually awesome. I boarded in Grapeshot, as I often do game 2 and 3 against decks that want to Surgical my Burning Wish. Turns out this won me the game. He thought seizes - surgicals my Wish (I had 2 in hand), he plays Gaddock Teeg, AND he Lost Legacy's my Empty the Warrens. I still manage to go off just enough with small draw effects, like Act on Impulse, find the lone grapeshot, kill his Teeg, go off for real, find Past in Flames, flash back the grapeshot. Fighting through HATE!

So, 3-1 in total again. Not bad!

[Mr. Safety]

Nice job! We gotta keep fightin' the good fight. IIRC, there are at least 2 players in my metagame playing UWx Stoneblade variants...and both play maindeck Explosives. Both are former Miracles players, so I think they are looking for card advantage tricks that slot into the empties from Counterbalance.

@mistercakes: I don't think more than 4 sol lands is wise, unless you max out on SSG (like you wrote, I agree with you.)

You don't want:

1) To be put out of the game by Wasteland when you only draw 1 land.
2) To work around land issues that somehow screw you over, like first land drop CoT, draw Mountain, can't comfortably go off (blue.dec), but if you NEED the land drop to win next turn.

I'm actually debating going DOWN on sol lands (possibly only 3, currently on Crystal Vein.) Games where I drew 2 mountains vs. games I drew 1 mountain/1 Sol land were nearly identical as far as consistency when going off. The initial mana boost is nice, but not make-or-break. I got in the habit of only playing my Sol Lands on the combo turn, to avoid getting blown out by Wasteland. That's where I started playing Vein, which needs the same approach. Starting a game with t1 Sol Land, Medallion (Daze/Force of Will/Spell pierce), followed up by Wasteland...I like that as much as I like a kick in the nuts. (My metagame is uber-fair, so this is a common occurrence.)

[Rampart]

i'm still torn on whether i should run 11 mtn 4 sol or 10 mtn 5 sol. i think if i do go with 10 mtn then the extra spirit guide needs to be there somewhere.

thoughts?

I agree 100% but monkey is easily the worst ritual spell. Additionally landing a rock on turn one is the best thing this deck can do. I think this is one of those its fine either way and it comes down to personal preference.

[mistercakes]

Thanks for feedback. Nice to get feedback from people with some games under your belts.

Wasteland scenario is always a factor for sol land decks. I suppose 4 sol lands is enough and hopefully with probes on average you can play around wasteland.

With ssg its quite nice even if you run out a sol land rock into daze... And then pay via ssg. (even into wasteland).

It's funny bc I started the deck with 8rocks,then we cut down to 4 for a whole... Then 6....maybe 7 is correct. I'm running 2 Gamble in my build as a pseudo rock when needed.

[ronco]

I have only goldfished a few mediocre runs of this deck (sub optimal build/rituals until the cards get here), but what about flipping the helm/ruby numbers? obviously if you run 4 you only want ruby, but if you are going to run a bunch would it be better to have helms first as you can then cast discounted helms/rubys later? Or is this one of those things where at that point it doesn't matter?

[mistercakes]

it's a good suggestion. so it's better for you, but helm also helps opponents. i think the matchups that are equal or unfavorable only get worse with a helm on the table.

the main problem matchups are:

dnt (thalia is the problem card, but they have several others that are also problematic)
snt (we're a big underdog here)
storm (storm is about even game 1 and we're favored post sb)

[Mr. Safety]

I would add Chalice/Trinisphere decks to that list. I've seen Helm of Obedience and Trinisphere making a resurgence, in Eldrazi and other Stompy-style decks. Red-based decks are hedging against Blood Moon being dead in some matchups (burn, Deathrite Shaman decks.) Yes Helm of Awakening makes stuff cost less, and evens out under a Helm of Obedience, but at that point it's doing NOTHING for you except slowing you down, while opponent's are still playing their normal game.

[Mr. Safety]

Thanks for feedback. Nice to get feedback from people with some games under your belts.

Wasteland scenario is always a factor for sol land decks. I suppose 4 sol lands is enough and hopefully with probes on average you can play around wasteland.

With ssg its quite nice even if you run out a sol land rock into daze... And then pay via ssg. (even into wasteland).

It's funny bc I started the deck with 8rocks,then we cut down to 4 for a whole... Then 6....maybe 7 is correct. I'm running 2 Gamble in my build as a pseudo rock when needed.

I think the power level of Gamble is much more productive than having more rocks. The speed is there (turn 2-4 combo, on average), the resiliency is there (Past in Flames FTW), so the consistency part is really the focus. Gamble is able to play a much bigger role, for less mana, than Helm of Awakening (if you're simply comparing the two.)

Maybe both is correct, but the reoccurring problem with the deck is fitting in everything to make it function. Hazoret's Undying Fury is a fairly easy decision to make, simply because multiples get worse when casting them (1-2 has become sort-of the consensus.) The rituals are basically locked in as far as quantity of them, the mix just changes (mostly between SSG/Desperate Ritual.) The rock count seems like the last really big decision to make (barring any other new cards getting printed.) Sidboard is a metagame call, but the wishboard stays within 1-2 cards of each other in every build.

I was watching a bunch of videos on YouTube of Belcher, and I think we're simply a turn slower but more consistent version of belcher. Once our goblins are dealt with we aren't dead either, because Past in Flames is huge in the mid-late game for stealing wins. I've also been watching a lot of TES videos, a storm version that leans on Empty the Warrens to a much greater extent than ANT (and it's another Burning Wish deck like Belcher.) We're at about the same level of speed, just a little less consistent. We're banking on critical mass of storm producers/raw draw spells while they are banking on cantrips feeding the correct rituals/LEDs to feed a guaranteed Infernal Tutor/Burning Wish win. I highly suggest watching videos of all three of those decks; it puts Ruby Storm into perspective on how it works compared to those decks, and those other 3 give valuable insight on how to fight common matchups.

[mistercakes]

good points, but i think analysis is missing a few points.

belcher is belcher because it has a high % of turn 1 kills. the goblin plan is how it wins prob around 60+% of the games, but there's enough belcher kills to really put it in its own class.
TES is primarily an ad nauseam deck, and a lot less of a goblins deck. it does get there with goblins quite a lot, but i think there's more tendrils kills than goblins.

after getting excited again about using hazoret's, i've goldfished and played some matches on modo. after flipping 4 mountains with 2 in play...i'm tired of the singleton hazoret's.

here's the list i'm running. the only card i'm questioning is the 2nd gamble, which could become an empty the warrens.

2 ancient tomb
2 city of traitors
11 mountain
4 lotus petal
4 ruby medallion
2 helm of awakening
2 simian spirit guide
1 desperate ritual
4 rite of flame
4 manamorphose
4 seething song
4 gitaxian probe
4 burning wish
4 act on impulse
3 past in flames
3 reforge the soul
2 gamble

sb:

1 tendrils of agony
1 grapeshot
1 empty the warrens
1 past in flames
1 cave-in
1 reforge the soul
1 by force
2 abrade
3 defense grid
1 tormod's crypt

other than the 1 gamble slot, i'm probably keeping the other 59 together. (sb pretty flexible)

[DeliriumFit]

One thing I'll say in Hazoret's favour is that there are games where it can act as a late game personal Reforge the Soul. These games against a delver deck where they used all their stuff to stop you, and have a lone delver 3'ing you per turn, and your just in top deck mode. Hazoret's can be a top deck that instantly gets you back in the game. Also nice that it can operate without the graveyard in case someone went to the graveyard hate plan to stop PiF.

I dont know, maybe I just enjoy the card too much.

[mistercakes]

i agree completely. it is also the most fun card in the deck. i have my foil playset and non-foil. i go back and forth all the time. for now i'll go without it.

i haven't sat and playtested vs a good player (thorough amount of matches) to fine tune the numbers on everything. all i have right now is a ton of league play and 1 local tourney that i played over a month ago.

it's super possible my build is wrong!

[BR3N7]

Been playing this for fun for a bit and I really enjoy it for a "for fun" deck with upside.

In my testing I hated Defense Grid since and the Hope of Ghirapur but I have liked Pyroblast and even Thoughtseize as a 1 of in the board better.

Also I tried Gamble but IDK it always felt either great or terrible. I also didn't act on impulse but it grew on me and never want more than 2. I also feel I want more Empty in the main to just go to that if going off isn't a thing like in Belcher. I played TES for a long time and I feel his is between that and Belcher.

This is what I kind of ended on but keep trying things out.

4 Ancient Tomb
11 Mountain
4 Burning Wish
2 Act on Impulse
2 Hazoret's Undying Fury
3 Reforge the Soul
3 Past in Flames
3 Gitaxian Probe
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Ruby Medallion
2 Helm of Awakening
4 Lotus Petal
3 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
4 Rite of Flame
2 Desperate Ritual

2 Scab-Clan Berserker
3 Pyroblast or 2PB/1 Thoughtseize and 2 Badlands in main. Yes not mono red but like in TES being able to Wish for a discard spell is very very good especially game 1.
1 Meltdown
1 Pyroclasm
1 Cave-in
1 Reforge the Soul
1 Past in Flames
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrills of Agony
1 Hazoret's Undying Fury (might cut for something else cause I RARELY tutor for this like RARELY and maybe another Empty is better or something random)
1 Rending Volley

[solnox]

How do you guys beat Grixis Delver/Control?

The matchup feels insanely difficult with their combination of Counterspells, Hand Disruption and clock.

I'm something awful like 0-8 vs the swarms of delver online

[mistercakes]

it's definitely one of the harder matchups. game 1's can be won more easily with an empty the warrens heavy maindeck build. otherwise you will need to land a rock and at least 2-3 threats. volcanic fallout also isn't the worst card against matchups like that. angler is obviously still a problem, but the rest is handled by it.

abrade helps too. also you could consider the 4th reforge the wheel if it's really heavy delver. this way you can miracle yourself out of situations. magma jet is better in that build as well.

[Mr. Safety]

good points, but i think analysis is missing a few points.

belcher is belcher because it has a high % of turn 1 kills. the goblin plan is how it wins prob around 60+% of the games, but there's enough belcher kills to really put it in its own class.
TES is primarily an ad nauseam deck, and a lot less of a goblins deck. it does get there with goblins quite a lot, but i think there's more tendrils kills than goblins.



Great post.

How do you feel about the 1-of Thoughtsieze in the sideboard mentioned above(or it could be Cabal Therapy, honestly, especially with 4x maindeck GitProbes)? I think it's pretty sexy, but it would definitely need some black-producing lands in the maindeck or always drawing Manamorphose. Maybe not a risk we want, but I like that it can be flashed back as well for free for a goblin token (a trick other storm decks do often I think.)

I'm also sad if HUF becomes obsolete in the deck, because it was the card that I feel put this idea on the map in the first place. Fun aside, I think it was a way to get a critical mass of payoff storm engine spells (tagging along with RtS and PiF.) I understand the results, the deck is really a Past in Flames deck at heart more than anything else. I just want it to work so badly, lol. Mind's Desire is bonafide broken, so it was so cool to see this card see print.

[BR3N7]

Great post.

How do you feel about the 1-of Thoughtsieze in the sideboard mentioned above(or it could be Cabal Therapy, honestly, especially with 4x maindeck GitProbes)? I think it's pretty sexy, but it would definitely need some black-producing lands in the maindeck or always drawing Manamorphose. Maybe not a risk we want, but I like that it can be flashed back as well for free for a goblin token (a trick other storm decks do often I think.)

I'm also sad if HUF becomes obsolete in the deck, because it was the card that I feel put this idea on the map in the first place. Fun aside, I think it was a way to get a critical mass of payoff storm engine spells (tagging along with RtS and PiF.) I understand the results, the deck is really a Past in Flames deck at heart more than anything else. I just want it to work so badly, lol. Mind's Desire is bonafide broken, so it was so cool to see this card see print.

I tried Cabal first since it was the best in TES but its a hit and miss and I didn't like that. I want a answer to anything. Playing the 2 Badlands and 1-2 Red Fetches never felt bad or cost me a game, if anything I was happy they used Wasteland on my Badlands and let me keep the Tomb the one time it happened.. The 1 Thoughtseize seems just right. If I ran 4 probes and 3 Empty in the main I would say Therapy could possibly be better.

HUF is great at what it does. 2 seems to be just right. I wanted to run 4 SOOOOO bad and I had to accept reality it was to many.

Yes Grixis delver is the matchup thats making me think this deck is terrible but this is why I want more empty in the main and looking to go up to even 3. Pyroblast also is great here and why I prefer it as killing Delver is sometimes a fine play.

Fun idea I tested was putting 4 chalice in the board (non probe version) and even Blood Moon for some MU's since no one would see it coming and could steal games.

[mistercakes]

so i think the discard is an okay idea, but the manabase is already fragile. cabal therapy seems like it would be better than thoughtseize, with the probe and tombs the lifeloss would be pretty rough.

i think it's best if you want to just stop counterspells to run empty the warrens.

vieko and i have tested blood moon and i did test chalice early on (especially in builds that didn't run rite of flame and probe). blood moon does steal games, prob just check out your meta and if you can steal a lot of matches outside of grixis it might be worth it. (eldrazi, elves, lands. etc)

[Mr. Safety]

I tried Cabal first since it was the best in TES but its a hit and miss and I didn't like that. I want a answer to anything. Playing the 2 Badlands and 1-2 Red Fetches never felt bad or cost me a game, if anything I was happy they used Wasteland on my Badlands and let me keep the Tomb the one time it happened.. The 1 Thoughtseize seems just right. If I ran 4 probes and 3 Empty in the main I would say Therapy could possibly be better.

HUF is great at what it does. 2 seems to be just right. I wanted to run 4 SOOOOO bad and I had to accept reality it was to many.

Yes Grixis delver is the matchup thats making me think this deck is terrible but this is why I want more empty in the main and looking to go up to even 3. Pyroblast also is great here and why I prefer it as killing Delver is sometimes a fine play.

Fun idea I tested was putting 4 chalice in the board (non probe version) and even Blood Moon for some MU's since no one would see it coming and could steal games.

I am also on 2x HUF, Pyroblast sideboard, and 3x Empty the Warrens maindeck, have been almost since the beginning. I'm really high on Act on Impulse right now, it's an absurd card to flip with Hazoret's Undying Fury (imagine Mind's Desire into Ancestral Recall, woo hoo!)

However, I'm not sold on the Thoughtseize sideboard. I think the brute force approach with Warrens will be better g1 against Grixis decks and post-board it's still fantastic, even against grave-hate.

Hoping to test out my Inferno Titans tomorrow night...see if they really are the real deal or wasted space.

Turn 1 Inferno Titan against elves, mmm, feels so good against my skin...

EDIT: If we sideboard Thoughtseize, and the high mana cost spells are mostly Wish targets, do we go back to 2008 and sideboard Dark Confidant?

[mistercakes]

just played 3 matches on modo and won all. (was casual room, but they seemed competent).

like my last list, but cut 1 land for the 3rd helm of awakening. was doing more consideration after the post a few days ago by Ronco. I still favor Ruby so I am running 4 Ruby, but I think in a deck that relies a lot of Act on Impulse, it's important to get it to 1cc.

10 mtn and 4 sol land.

(also to note, elves is already favorable. make sure you have enough matchups where inferno titan will help.)

[Mr. Safety]

just played 3 matches on modo and won all. (was casual room, but they seemed competent).

like my last list, but cut 1 land for the 3rd helm of awakening. was doing more consideration after the post a few days ago by Ronco. I still favor Ruby so I am running 4 Ruby, but I think in a deck that relies a lot of Act on Impulse, it's important to get it to 1cc.

10 mtn and 4 sol land.

(also to note, elves is already favorable. make sure you have enough matchups where inferno titan will help.)

I didn't know elves was favorable...haven't played the matchup yet. That was one of the bigger reasons for it because it wipes the board every turn. I guess pressuring Jace is good, but I don't think I've ever seen a t1-2 Jace.

[solnox]

Elves have nothing game 1 outside of racing you

Postboard, they have surgicals, seize/therapy, ruric thar

overall still an easy matchup

[Shaman]

just played 3 matches on modo and won all. (was casual room, but they seemed competent).

like my last list, but cut 1 land for the 3rd helm of awakening. was doing more consideration after the post a few days ago by Ronco. I still favor Ruby so I am running 4 Ruby, but I think in a deck that relies a lot of Act on Impulse, it's important to get it to 1cc.

10 mtn and 4 sol land.

(also to note, elves is already favorable. make sure you have enough matchups where inferno titan will help.)

If you play 3 helms and go down to 14 lands, I guess the lonely desperate ritual can be switched to the 3rd SGG to maximize the chances to play your rock on T1. SGG helps getting paying daze sometimes.
My testing confirms Gamble is the nuts: I play 2 and I am not playing less in the near future.

[solnox]

Ran 2-1 a few days ago in a paper tournament beating elves and Miracles and losing to Tezzerator with MB Leyline which was brutal.

going to be running back my list this time with 2x gamble and cutting the Chandra, Torch of Defiance.

[mistercakes]

yea i am a little reluctant to run so few initial red sources (10 mtn, 2 ssg, 4 petal) but will require more testing. i really like how desperate ritual can enable turn 1 wins.

turn 1 desperate -> ruby/helm -> manamorphose -> seething song -> do something stupid.

[Mr. Safety]

yea i am a little reluctant to run so few initial red sources (10 mtn, 2 ssg, 4 petal) but will require more testing. i really like how desperate ritual can enable turn 1 wins.

turn 1 desperate -> ruby/helm -> manamorphose -> seething song -> do something stupid.

I've been on 1 Desperate Ritual for a while, and I find it to be worth its slot but I'm not sure how many more than 1. I'm back on the plan of playing a full set of SSG because of the need for mana post-Reforge the Soul.

Quick question for everyone: I haven't *once* Wish-ed for Reforge the Soul, ever. I see where it could be great, but I almost always go for Tendrils if I can kill them now, or Past in Flames to further the chain (and kill them now, lol.) I'm wondering if the RtS could be dropped from the wishboard for something more relevant in the side. You guys wishing for RtS very often?

[mistercakes]

That tends to come up more in the matchups where counterspells aren't involved. Really helps with the storm matchup too. It can also help a lot vs the decks that are packing hard grave hate like leyline or rest in peace.

I'd say if you don't find yourself wishing for it, try to figure out if you ever could have for games that didn't get there. If it doesn't come up enough for you then I would say move it to main board or just drop.

[Shaman]

I have just played some games with:

1 desperate ritual
1 simian spirit guide
3 helms of awakening
10 mountains
1 crystal vein
4 ancient tomb

The rest as mistercakes'.
I felt very good with 7 rocks.
Mana felt great.

What is annoying with SSG is they cannot be discarded for mana when exiled with act on impulse. I guess I am changing my mind on them.

Question: how does defense grid works under helm?

[mistercakes]

defense grid is a bit of a nonbo with helm. so if you have one out they only need to pay 2 per spell. (the hope is if you are drawing multiple helm, just draw a 2nd grid!)

i'm always torn on the ssg/desperate split. generally the SSG are worth it even when they do whiff by flipping on AoI. at least with 2 in the deck it doesn't happen that much.

btw. thanks for that doomsday spreadsheet all those years ago (if that's you). i relied on that for a while so many years ago!

[Shaman]

btw. thanks for that doomsday spreadsheet all those years ago (if that's you). i relied on that for a while so many years ago!

It's me. Glad you enjoyed.

I am getting quite annoyed with conventional storm and this deck rised my interest a lot. I hope I will give a much better contribution in a couple of weeks when I will have the chance to play paper magic and not just Cocka (I cashed out front MODO a lot ago).

I haven't had the need to wish for Tendrils so far: Grapeshot seems to be ok by its own.

[mistercakes]

It is, but I'd recommend having a 2nd Storm kill so you can avoid getting screwed by surgical on burning wish.

editing post to share list w/ someone i ran into on modo running the 5-0 list.

2 ancient tomb
2 city of traitors
10 mountain
2 gamble
4 gitaxian probe
4 rite of flame
4 lotus petal
3 helm of awakening
4 ruby medallion
1 desperate ritual
4 burning wish
4 manamorphose
4 act on impulse
4 seething song
2 simian spirit guide
3 past in flames
3 reforge

1 tendrils of agony
2 abrade
2 scab-clan berserker
3 defense grid
1 tormod's crypt
1 grapeshot
1 cave-in
1 reforge the soul
1 by force
1 empty the warrens
1 tormod's crypt

[ronco]

My experience with this deck is probably the least out of everyone contributing, but there was one time I went for the kill with reforge the soul. Probably a fringe case but it was against dredge. I took a gamble and wheeled, they basically dredged every draw to set themselves up to win if I passed the turn, but it paid off for me so I just wished for/PIFed more wheel effects to deck them. I'm sure this was a fringe case but it can be an unusual wincon to keep in the back pocket (someone mentioned this a while back but I don't remember who). EtW didn't really work against the dredge I played against so its either deck them or grapeshot/tendrils. I find I generally go tendrils just because its easier as when I have the engine going I have no problem with mana either way. It also helps to need fewer copies because then you can leave mana floating for a flusterstorm and still get the kill if its needed.

I do like using overmaster before the wish spell when pulling a storm kill card.

[Rampart]

My experience with this deck is probably the least out of everyone contributing, but there was one time I went for the kill with reforge the soul. Probably a fringe case but it was against dredge. I took a gamble and wheeled, they basically dredged every draw to set themselves up to win if I passed the turn, but it paid off for me so I just wished for/PIFed more wheel effects to deck them. I'm sure this was a fringe case but it can be an unusual wincon to keep in the back pocket (someone mentioned this a while back but I don't remember who). EtW didn't really work against the dredge I played against so its either deck them or grapeshot/tendrils. I find I generally go tendrils just because its easier as when I have the engine going I have no problem with mana either way. It also helps to need fewer copies because then you can leave mana floating for a flusterstorm and still get the kill if its needed.

I do like using overmaster before the wish spell when pulling a storm kill card.

Can confirm that Reforge is a win condition sometimes. Have won to games wheeling a Grixis Delver player and a Miracles player to death after they have surgicaled all my other win conditions out of the my deck post board. Its pretty rare but they are Epic when you can pull them off additionally the amount of rage on the other side is quite funny.

[Mr. Safety]

That tends to come up more in the matchups where counterspells aren't involved. Really helps with the storm matchup too. It can also help a lot vs the decks that are packing hard grave hate like leyline or rest in peace.

I'd say if you don't find yourself wishing for it, try to figure out if you ever could have for games that didn't get there. If it doesn't come up enough for you then I would say move it to main board or just drop.

Good advice! I will be paying more attention in those situations. I'm also getting in the habit of looking at my sideboard to remind myself of options. There were a few games where I was trying to figure out how to get my storm count higher to make an in-hand EtW lethal, but I had a light-bulb moment after looking at my sideboard (and noticing I can Manamorphose > Tendrils for lethal.)

[Mr. Safety]

So I played FNM tonight to an abysmal finish, 0-3. Played against Br Reanimator, Grixis Delver, and BUG Leovold.

Br Reanimator - turn 1 Iona both games. Yay!

Grixis Delver - Reforge feeds him force of wills. Yay!

Bug Leovold - Shuts off Reforge the Soul with Leo in some games, draws way too many lands but I fizzle on the RtS I actually resolve and he still wins. Yay! Oh and he Abrupt Decay-ed my Medallions.

I didn't change anything in my deck for FNM, but I got some tweaks in after the FNM and jammed some more games against the Leovold guy. New list that I'll be testing:

4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Lotus Petal
4x Rite of Flame
4x Seething Song
4x Manamorphose
1x Desperate Ritual
4x Ruby Medallion
3x Past in Flames
3x Empty the Warrens
4x Burning Wish
4x Gitaxian Probe
2x Blood Moon (totally sold on this)
3x Hazoret's Undying Fury
2x Gamble
10x Mountain
4x Crystal Vein

Sideboard
1x Tendrils
1x Past in Flames
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Grapeshot
1x Goblin War Strike
1x Reforge the Soul
1x Pyroclasm
1x By Force
2x Inferno Titan
3x Pyroblast
2x Surgical Extraction



My metagame is just too fair, and Reforge the Soul just isn't good enough. A random draw 7, miracle-d at least 3 times, wasn't good enough. Seriously. I was so disappointed in that card's performance. It has been relegated to 1 copy in the sideboard. Too many decks feed off it as good as I do, or better if I pass the turn because I fizzle on mana. Past in Flames is the linchpin of the deck, I need more copies available, it's absolutely correct to play 3 main, 1 side. Gamble makes up for Reforge the Soul missing because it can facilitate a t1-2 Blood Moon, a Past in Flames when I need it, or a hate card post-board. Surgical is my storm hate of choice ATM instead of Berserker because 1) I don't play against storm very much at all, and 2) Surgical is better at fighting the bad matchups (extracting Forces, Iona, Griselbrand, hosing Deathrite Shaman/Snapcaster mage, etc.)

I boarded in Inferno Titan against Grixis Delver, assuming he would side out removal (which he did, but the only thing he played that hit it was Diabolic Edict.) I had the chance to play it a couple games but had to mulligan the hands because of zero lands.

I had a ton of fun, but lost miserably. I really want to keep on this deck. Act on Impulse seems fantastic in the deck, but Gamble seems even better. And I want to try 3x Hazoret's main, and maybe squeeze one in the board if I continue to see Reforge be dead. Maybe I'm just super unlucky, but Reforge has been a stinker.

With 4x Simian Spirit Guide, 15 lands is too many. I drew way too many lands in all of my games. Fourteen seems right, and I wanted 4 sol lands (Vein didn't bother me with the sacrifice at all. I just wanted more gas!)

[mistercakes]

Sorry to hear about the bad showing. Sometime that happens with any combo deck when playing vs decks like grixis delver and Leovold.

Reanimator is just unfortunate. They usually don't turn 1 iona.

Reforge has been very good for me, but I think testing a version with hazoret's in those slots could be interesting. Would love to hear feedback on that.

Blood moon is good Vs the 2 decks you mentioned as well as a few others.

Also keep in mind that even though I've had good runs with this deck, I've also had bad ones. It doesn't mean that a particular card is bad.

[Rampart]

Has anyone tried guttersnipe as a win condition out of the board?

[mistercakes]

I don't believe any has tried. What matchup will it improve?

[Rampart]

I don't believe any has tried. What matchup will it improve?

Basically it is a hedge against decks that are highly interactive with you. Assuming that decks take out creature removal it should be good against :d&t, 4c, bug decks but not grixis delver because they keep in bolts. It allows for partial combining or strings of spells. It can kill over several turns which is nice. It also does't matter if they counter stuff. It's something I have been considering trying but wanted to ask first

[vieko]

Basically it is a hedge against decks that are highly interactive with you. Assuming that decks take out creature removal it should be good against :d&t, 4c, bug decks but not grixis delver because they keep in bolts. It allows for partial combining or strings of spells. It can kill over several turns which is nice. It also does't matter if they counter stuff. It's something I have been considering trying but wanted to ask first

I've tried this, he's very good when the assumptions you make come true or against decks that lack creature removal. Worth the effort Rampart, do it :)

[ronco]

I think guttersnipe is a great test! The deck that i was working on before turning it into this was a gutter snipe and gas/cantrip deck (manamorphose, needle drop, and some flashback and loads of cheap burn). I picked up PiF for that deck but it didn't seem to provide the oomph it needed, then I stumble over here and see the medallion idea and now here I am lol. Just for ideas I also ran monastery swiftspear and crash through for cantrips and damage and to push trample damage through with prowress. Just in case you wantedto diverge a little bit and try something different.

To comment on the BR Reanimator a bit. I have likely a similar build but run mono-black with excessive amounts of discard/disruption. I find that T1 or T0 chancellors are also very very bad for this (ruby storm) deck, and as you had mentioned earlier the helms are very very bad in this matchup too (1 mana collective brutality + exhume are just bad). Really, any creature that hits (except elesh norn) means game over for this deck so its a crazy race and reforges are absolutely suicidal, all in this turn or lose cards. So I think we can mark this as a tough matchup as well.

I can basically play test vs manaless dredge (horde mode or spy mode), reanimator, and some casual weenie and combo deck I have available. So if anyone wants to see certain cards sided in vs those match ups I'm willing to do so and come back with results.

[Mr. Safety]

Sorry to hear about the bad showing. Sometime that happens with any combo deck when playing vs decks like grixis delver and Leovold.

Reanimator is just unfortunate. They usually don't turn 1 iona.

Reforge has been very good for me, but I think testing a version with hazoret's in those slots could be interesting. Would love to hear feedback on that.

Blood moon is good Vs the 2 decks you mentioned as well as a few others.

Also keep in mind that even though I've had good runs with this deck, I've also had bad ones. It doesn't mean that a particular card is bad.

It was really disappointing to combo several times with Reforge and just *not get there*. I either ran out of mana or I didn't have a win condition available. I had tons of opportunities to win but the deck fizzled. I have some ideas I want to test, but it's hard to justify changes with only goldfishing. Here is my new list that I'm testing, and in goldfishing it was more consistent by a large margin.

4x Rite of Flame
3x Desperate Ritual
4x Seething Song
4x Manamorphose
4x Ruby Medallion
4x Lotus Petal

4x Burning Wish
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Reforge the Soul
2x Hazoret's Undying Fury
3x Past in Flames
2x Gamble

2x Blood Moon

4x Faithless Looting
4x Gitaxian Probe

10x Mountain
4x Crystal Vein

Sideboard
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Past in Flames
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Grapeshot
1x Goblin War Strike
1x Overmaster
1x Pyroclasm
1x By Force
2x Inferno Titan
2x Surgical Extraction
3x Pyroblast


Looting is technically card disadvantage, but it smooth's out early draws in a big way. It also feeds Past in Flames HUGE during the combo turn for only R. Gamble is fantastic, again super efficient at only R. The deck will still have nuts draws and turn 1 big goblin hordes, but I feel this list will fight through the blue decks better. Gamble digs out Blood Moon, sideboarded Inferno Titans, even sided in singletons like Overmaster (or I could just burning wish for it every time, either way seems fine. Naturally drawing Overmaster is as good as Pyroblast. I had a big problem resolving a payoff spell against the blue decks, enter the Overmaster sideboard option.

I was frustrated when I said I was cutting Reforge the Soul...I think it's still a great early setup tool, and it's fantastic if revealed with HUF. I think Faithless Looting provides just as much card availability if the plan is PiF. The deck now has 12 cheap ways to dig further into the deck (Probe/Manamorphose/Looting.) Finding the right mix of Rituals/PiF/Burning Wish just got a lot easier.

Regarding Simian Spirit Guide: all it does is add R, doesn't add storm count, and gives false hope of ripping Reforge the Soul into more free mana to continue the spell chain. Reforge is too risky to go all-in on, something my experience has shown anyways. I like the refill, 2 copies main seems plenty (I'd rather squeeze in Looting.) That's also where the extra copies of Desperate Ritual came from, they add storm count and work much better with Looting. Binning them is fine when the goal of almost every game is Past in Flames. It only nets 1 mana like SSG but it can become Dark Ritual with Medallion.

Excited to test this new version. I was drawing multiples of Empty the Warrens, even before Faithless Looting, so 1 in the maindeck is fine. I might even drop it altogether in favor of the 4th Desperate Ritual, but I like an out to Surgical > Burning Wish. Gamble still finds it.:wink:

Getting closer...sad I can't work in Act on Impulse, but Faithless Looting seems to have a ton more potential ATM. No Reforge in the side may be a mistake, but I don't think so. Testing will prove it out.

[ronco]

Did some note taking to help myself get better at the deck. Here is what I currently have:

11 mountain
4 ancient tomb
4 lotus petal
4 ruby medallion
2 helm of awakening
4 burning wish
4 act on impulse
4 gitaxian probe
4 manamorphose
4 rite of flame
3 seething song
3 reforge the soul
3 past in flames
3 simian spirit guide
2 hazoret's undying fury
1 empty the warrens


Sideboard (I'm kind of cheating here, it isn't complete so if there was a card i wanted i just pretended it was in the board the whole time):

1 pyroblast
1 reforge the soul
1 grapeshot
1 empty the warrens
1 goblin war strike
1 past in flames
1 hazoret's undying fury
1 seething song
1 desperate ritual

6 other things (currently 4 pyroblast, 2 abrade)

I goldfished 20 games and came up with the following on the above:
-average kill was 4.2 turns in any way necessary.
-mode was 3 turns (average was swayed by an 11, two 6 and one 7 turn kills).
-I never missed on HuF or RtS. Missed 5 times on AoI.
-Average RtS 1 time per game.
-Average AoI 1.75 times per game (1.5 times it hits, .25 times miss)
-Average HuF .7 times per game. Note - i often wished for RtS when I needed to get the engine going from the board. That extra 1 mana and 3 cards makes the difference, even if I have to spend mana to cast the spells for some reason.
-Average PiF 1 time per game, which surprised me. I thought it would be higher, but I could have mis-counted the second casting of this in some games.
-Mulliganed 5 times (25%).
-Average wish 1.4 times per game. in 7 of the 20 games I used it to get the engine going again, either a ritual or an RtS.
-3 games I didn't see/use a wish and killed with goblin tokens (5, 3, 3 turn kills respectively).
-When using wish to get the kill card, 5 times it necessarily was EtW followed by Goblin War Strike. 2 times it was necessarily tendrills. 1 time it was grape shot. 8 times I used tendrills but just as easily could have gone EtW/War Strike or grapeshot. 1 time it was grape shot OR war strike (no tendrills mana that game).
-Storm count averaged 17.2 when casting a storm card. However, in 16 of the 20 games I had the ability to continue going for a larger storm count (3 times were the goblin attack kills, and one time i just ran out and had to attack and then wish for war strike because I was out of gas).
-my 11 turn kill was a terribly unlucky draw. Rituals + 3 cantrips + Pif. Between my natural draws and the 6 cantrips on 1 turn, I drew nothing useful to keep it going and then drew dead something like 7 turns in a row after that. 7 turn kill was 6 lands/mana draws in a row with no HuF, AoI, wish, or RtS. Shit happens.




Conclusions
-I need more data to make any type of conclusion on AoI vs HuF vs RtS. Thankfully with the 8 cantrips in the deck and 3 PIF/4 wish it can almost always dig deep, but as seen sometimes the draws aren't there.
-mulligans don't appear to have a major impact on the turn kill, though more data is needed (5, 2, 3, 4, 3 turn kills with hands that were mulled to 6)
-will probably swamp out SSG for desperate rituals. the fringe use of getting 1 for 0 vs 3 for 2 or 1 is offset by storm count and PiF/AoI useable. I think you guys already came to that conclusion so just consider this additional validation.
-I like having a couple rituals in the board to give wish more options, esp early game.
-i didn't notice much difference between 7 rocks and 6. I think going with 4 ruby and 2 helm is a safer play from other testing i've done with my other decks. the format is generally too fast to give the opponent a turn with 1 less cc on their spells.
-if an extra sideboard slot if needed, i'd probably suggest cutting grape shot. it was seldom required and a win con can be had from other avenues.

other things
-I like the idea of surgical in the board. I like the idea of gamble and overmaster in the main, just don't have them yet but will soon.

I'll keep testing and updating my notes as I go along. I'm sure this is mostly known already to you all but maybe there is a useful nugget or two in here.

[mistercakes]

thanks for the data. the issue with the three big cards in this deck is that they are all inherently random.

i've been tinkering around with my original brew to give the probeless versions another chance.

10 mtn
4 sol lands (i'm on 2 tomb 2 cot)
4 seething song
4 rite of flame
4 manamorphose
4 lotus petal
4 ruby medallion
3 helm of awakening
4 simian spirit guide
1 desperate ritual
1 gamble
3 reforge the soul
4 act on impulse
3 past in flames
3 hazoret's undying fury
4 burning wish

same sb that i've been running including 1 sb reforge.

[BR3N7]

Blood Moon is very bad in the main. In the SB sure but this deck need to go off as quickly as possible game 1. If you ruin that this deck is just a worse Belcher. You need your game 1 to be high enough win % to outweigh the fact you will be disadvantaged post board more than likely.

This deck is NOT a 15 round deck but I do think is possible to top 8 a local like 60 person event and I think it could with some consistency 4-0 any local or 5-0 a MTGO( I hit winning streaks of 4+ and losing sometimes). If your local rooms are super full of Delvers/Leos and Combo Decks then this won't be overly great IMO so know that and play it only if you want to have fun and that outweighs the losing. I would look to change the deck a bit at that point to be a little more like TES in that kind of room(see below).

This deck is dependent on variance so yes you will go to reforge/HUF and whiff. This happens in ANT and TES a lot when just going for it. Sometimes you just brick and it sucks but you also hit more often than you brick. Plus dat miracle cost is a real thing and has taken back from the brink of death many time.

This is what I have been trying which is more or less a bridge between Belcher and TES. I think this minor black splash for 4 Discard Spells/4 probe allow you sculpt/gain enough knowledge to not just always feel like I have to always just yolo. I also cut the HUFs which I am sad about but it might be correct IDK and the discard spells have won games then they have and its really not close.

4 Ancient Tomb
5 Mountain
2 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Burning Wish
3 Reforge the Soul
3 Past in Flames
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Ruby Medallion
2 Helm of Awakening
4 Lotus Petal
3 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
4 Rite of Flame
1 Desperate Ritual

2 Scab-Clan Berserker
2 Pyroblast
2 Thoughtseize
2 Rending Volley
1 Meltdown
1 Cave-in
1 Reforge the Soul
1 Past in Flames
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrills of Agony

[vieko]

In case you missed it, Ruby Storm was mentioned on MTGGoldfish.com's This Week in Legacy: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/this-week-in-legacy-commander-2017-spoilers

:)

[Mr. Safety]

In case you missed it, Ruby Storm was mentioned on MTGGoldfish.com's This Week in Legacy: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/this-week-in-legacy-commander-2017-spoilers

:)

It was just a matter of time, lol. Sweet!

[Mr. Safety]

Blood Moon is very bad in the main. In the SB sure but this deck need to go off as quickly as possible game 1. If you ruin that this deck is just a worse Belcher. You need your game 1 to be high enough win % to outweigh the fact you will be disadvantaged post board more than likely.



Sometimes 'going off' is GitProbe > Rituals > Blood Moon > Win. I think Blood Moon is a very good maindeck card. Probably not a 4-of, but I've been testing 2 (instead of Defense Grid) and it has been good every time. It's doing the same thing as your Thoughtseize splash, but potentially better. In my metagame Thoughtseize would be ok; Blood Moon is the nuts.

I also think that with your build so strongly focused on Emtpy the Warrens (something I also have tried) Desperate Ritual's stock goes way up over SSG's.

@Everyone: I highly suggest testing Faithless Looting and Gamble. Yes it makes us a little more susceptible to Chalice @1, but it also allows for a much greater level of consistency. Past in Flames + Faithless Looting = BFF. Gamble is also nuts good with Past in Flames, no different than the way Lands uses it for Loam/Punishing Fire. Faithless looting took all of 2 games to convince me it was worth its 4 slots, and I don't think I will ever play Act on Impulse again. It's just better.

Also, in case anyone hasn't read this: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/fundamentals/23497_Eternal_Europe_Deckbuilding_The_Easy_Way.html

Article from Carston Kotter about slot-based deck building, which is really helping me get a handle on this deck's building process. The article even has a RU Past in Flames deck it uses as an example (Brain Freeze as the enabler.)

Example, when comparing to ANT:

Faithless Looting = Brainstorm
Manamorphose = Ponder
Gitaxian Probe = Gitaxian Probe
Ruby Medallion = Lion's Eye Diamond

(Note: the converted mana costs are different, but they play the same roles. Medallion adds a minimum of 3 mana on the combo turn after paying for itself, so it functions the same as free + 3.)

Those are the substitutions, but the slots and their role in the deck are the same. You can carry this over to other parts of the deck (Rite of Flame = Dark Ritual, Seething Song = Cabal Ritual, Burning Wish = Infernal Tutor, Gamble = Dark Petition.) I may be way off the mark, and this mono-red storm deck is a different animal, but I don't think so. I think going after it slot-based makes a ton of sense. What we are doing is trying for a more robust mana base and using new, cool cards like Hazoret's Undying Fury.

[mistercakes]

i don't really treat the decks as identical and looking for slot swapping. because this deck can't run discard it has to run more threats. this makes it a different deck entirely.

whatever floats your boat :p

[Mr. Safety]

i don't really treat the decks as identical and looking for slot swapping. because this deck can't run discard it has to run more threats. this makes it a different deck entirely.

whatever floats your boat :p

I get that; I was just looking at the discard as disruption/protection in a general sense, doing the same job as Defense Grid/Blood Moon.

The decks are nowhere near identical, but looking at it through an established setup it might help find where the holes are.

[mistercakes]

I like to think of it as what are the bare minimum numbers for each card and then whatever I have leftover is X slots.

[Mr. Safety]

I was doing the same, and it ends up shuffling around the same 7-10 cards (as I'm sure you've noticed.) I think the difference with Faithless Looting is that it should mean we see less random games. I found that shuffling around those 7-10 slots made some games better, some games worse. The variance factor is hard to nail down when its just relying on drawing the correct mix of cards with the current decklist at-hand. I think Looting will help to narrow down where the variance is coming from. Gamble also fills that role, and I've been super happy with Gamble.

It's important to note that the first Faithless Looting is card disadvantage, the second one is parity. During the combo turn where multiple copies of PiF are cast it becomes incredibly good, better than Reforge the Soul I think.

I'm curious if you've tried out Looting, and if so, what were your thoughts/results? I don't remember it being mentioned in the thread, but I may have just missed it.

[Icapica]

I have to admit I am interested in trying Faithless Looting, though I don't think I'll play the full set. I've been keeping my list the same for several leagues in MTG Online now, figuring that there's no point in switching stuff around after just five matches. Maybe I'll soon try some changes finally.

In addition to feeding PIF, Faithless Looting would allow me to convert unnecessary lands and extra PIFs etc into something potentially useful.

[Mr. Safety]

I am also a little skeptical about the full 4...but I'm also going to try a singleton Chrome Mox which makes extra copies a better pitch-card than rituals.

[mistercakes]

I had tested faithless in the original 8rocks builds. My main problem with it then was that it was not working much card disadvantage.

It was nice when you could flash it back for R, but other than that I wasn't really thrilled with the card. Feel free to continue testing though. Maybe there's a place for 1 or 2.

[Mr. Safety]

Starting with 4, taking slots out that were dedicated to Reforge the Soul (2 of them) and dropping Act on Impulse altogether (1 slot) and dropping to 14 lands (1 slot.) Testing will show if I draw into too many of them. If I do I think I'll drop to 3 and add in 1x Chrome Mox.

[mistercakes]

Dropping AoI is prob wrong! Been there done that!

[vieko]

Dropping AoI is prob wrong! Been there done that!

Yup... this seems bad.

[Mr. Safety]

Well, I still have them. They can always go back in. I also finally picked up a set of helm in paper to test, along with berserkers and overmaster. Building up a decent pool of cards to work with.

If you guys had to choose between huf, rts, or aoi, which would you favor? Aoi?

[vieko]

Well, I still have them. They can always go back in. I also finally picked up a set of helm in paper to test, along with berserkers and overmaster. Building up a decent pool of cards to work with.

If you guys had to choose between huf, rts, or aoi, which would you favor? Aoi?

AOI any day :)

HUF: I'm done with the card, too random. RTS: maybe as a one-of. AOI is 3-4 in all my lists. AOI is the most predictable of the cards you inquire about: you may not know what's coming but if you play it with enough available mana to use and / or a reduction artifact in play, you'll likely benefit from it.

[Icapica]

Also I like that you can even play a land with AOI, unlike with HUF. Sometimes it's relevant.

[mistercakes]

AoI is the best, Reforge is great. I still run 4 AoI and 2-3 Reforge with 1 sb.

Wheel of fortune is just too powerful of an effect to ignore.

AoI however is one sided and usually 2 mana. Hazoret's is usually 5 and it's still just a coin flip.

AoI is also. A better draw late game as you may not have 5 mana available. I've won quite a few games with 3 mana +a rock open and drawing AoI into a win after they exhausted their counters the turn prior.

[hadhod]

Hi at all. Sorry for my absence.

Yesterday i did another league with another 3-1 :D

that is my new list:


// 60 Mazzo
// 11 Artifact
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ruby Medallion
3 Helm of Awakening

// 4 Creature
4 Simian Spirit Guide

// 9 Instant
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
1 Commune with Lava

// 14 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
10 Mountain

// 22 Sorcery
4 Burning Wish
2 Past in Flames
4 Rite of Flame
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Empty the Warrens
3 Act on Impulse
3 Reforge the Soul


// 15 Sideboard
// 3 Creature
SB: 3 Scab-Clan Berserker

// 2 Enchantment
SB: 2 Blood Moon

// 4 Instant
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Abrade

// 6 Sorcery
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Fiery Confluence
SB: 1 Reforge the Soul




(yesterday i played -1 gitaxian + 1 commune)

little report:

round 1 - BG depths (another guy, not the same)

Win the roll -> lost g1, obv, 'cause i was drawing 8 lands with 3 AoI and a surgical onto BW in g1! :cry:

side -> +2 abrade +2 Bmoon + 1 Grape - 2 EtW - 1 Commune - 2 Gitaxian

g2 -> combo off with 24 goblins at first and his Marit Leage cried now :D
g3 -> a little more complicated: take hand with 3 ssg/petals, AoI, Helm, 2 Morphose and try to combo off at first. With the second Morphose i drew Bmoon with 3 mana in pool, i can cast AoI and Bmoon, but i can't cast some other spells from AoI if they aren't rites, so i decide to cast Bmoon and win with this :D

1-0

round 2 -> snt

win the roll -> g1: doing rite into bw -> fow, hardcasting EtW for 14 and double swing :D

side: nothing

g2: i can go combo off at first, i did and i lsoe onto his FoW
g3: same of g2

1-1

round 3 -> BG Rock

Win the roll again -> g1: he casted Cabal Therapy into BW, i've one in hand. Don't draw more enabler/drawer

side: same of depths, only +1 etw -1 gitaxian

g2: he surgicals me the bw and cast pernicious saiding: "u can't close now!" -> next turn i did +60 dmg with grape xD
g3: i did a fast goblins that put him at 3-4 LP, but i don't have more goblins! But i'd 2-3 rocks and every topdeck save me -> AoI into PiF, bw, Song. Not bad.

2-1

round 4 -> BG depths (that gay is the same of the other league! REVEANGE)

Lost the roll -> g1: combo off at second after t1 rock and his Leage in front of me.

side: same of other bg depths

g2: he start urborg -> seize, i put mountain go and he did DD + Hexmage. OK, i lost... NO, THAT IS THE REVEANGE! I tried to do spells (i'd 2 morphose and a Wheel). I did some rite and casting Wheel i've only 1 red float. Now he surgicals me Rite of Flame. Resolved wheel: Ssgx2, Songx2, Ruby, BW, AoI :D With that hand, i closed easy :D

3-1


I see that we have a very bad MU against combo with U (snt, infect) because we don't have big interaction with them and they have with us! In fact, I lose in this league and also in an other one only because I found the wrong MU. The deck is very strong against eldrazi, D&T (without Prelate), and discards effect, but have a very bad MU that we can't resolve with a little SB (like 9 cards).

Another little point: Fiery COnfluence in sb is very great :D

[Mr. Safety]

AOI any day :)

HUF: I'm done with the card, too random. RTS: maybe as a one-of. AOI is 3-4 in all my lists. AOI is the most predictable of the cards you inquire about: you may not know what's coming but if you play it with enough available mana to use and / or a reduction artifact in play, you'll likely benefit from it.

My experience has been very good with HUF, that's one of the cards I don't waffle over. I will always have 1-2 maindeck. AoI has been great when I draw it, in almost all situations, it just didn't seem as appealing as draw 7 with Reforge the Soul. My perspective on RtS has changed a lot since facing off against the premier blue decks of the format.

However, you're still on LED right? LED powers out AoI in a big way. I still think its really powerful, and a much better topdeck than a ritual with no PiF in the graveyard.

List for testing, putting Helm/Mox into maindeck and Blood Moon side. Still think Faithless Looting is worth slots. How many, I don't know, but starting with a 2/2 split of Looting/Gamble. Honestly, I think the Reforge the Soul should probably be the 3rd AoI. I know a lot of folks are sold on that card, but in my metagame its just too risky by feeding blue decks more counterspells (and handing reanimator decks the win on the spot...) Inferno Titan has been tabled, it just isn't worth slots.

4x Rite of Flame
3x Desperate Ritual
4x Seething Song
4x Manamorphose
4x Lotus Petal
1x Chrome Mox

4x Ruby Medallion
1x Helm of Awakening

2x Faithless Looting
2x Gamble
4x Gitaxian Probe
2x Act on Impulse

3x Past in Flames
1x Reforge the Soul
2x Hazoret's Undying Fury

4x Burning Wish
1x Empty the Warrens

10 Mountain
4x Crystal Vein

Sideboard

1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Grapeshot
1x Past in Flames
1x By Force
1x Cave-In
2x Blood Moon
2x Surgical Extraction
3x Pyroblast
2x Scab-Clan Berserker

[Mr. Safety]

AoI is the best, Reforge is great. I still run 4 AoI and 2-3 Reforge with 1 sb.

Wheel of fortune is just too powerful of an effect to ignore.

AoI however is one sided and usually 2 mana. Hazoret's is usually 5 and it's still just a coin flip.

AoI is also. A better draw late game as you may not have 5 mana available. I've won quite a few games with 3 mana +a rock open and drawing AoI into a win after they exhausted their counters the turn prior.

Have you drawn opponents into Force of Will post-Reforge? I have, and its a lousy feeling lol. I think with Helm in there Act on Impulse's stock goes way up, because it becomes a draw 3 for 2 rather than a draw 7 for 4. I'll take only 3 cards at the cost of *not* giving my opponent a fresh 7 any day of the week against fair blue decks. Against non-interactive, non-graveyard decks it can be disruption but against those decks we're kind of favored already.

Theres' always a nagging thought in the back of my head as well: Hazoret's Undying Fury is what put the deck on the map as a potential storm variant, and not folks are basically saying 'not good enough!' It's an odd paradox, because without the printing of that card this deck wouldn't even start incubating (not seriously anyways.)

[Icapica]

Theres' always a nagging thought in the back of my head as well: Hazoret's Undying Fury is what put the deck on the map as a potential storm variant, and not folks are basically saying 'not good enough!' It's an odd paradox, because without the printing of that card this deck wouldn't even start incubating (not seriously anyways.)
I have thought about that too. Then again, I suspect that there's several decent (if probably not DTB level) decks that could be built from Legacy card pool but just haven't been discovered.

[mistercakes]

I suppose so, but fruity pebbles was a precursor to trix. I don't fault trix for not running enduring renewal.

[Mr. Safety]

I remember a very respected member of my legacy community once saying: 'only new cards make new decks' (paraphrased.) I assumed this to be true, because it only made sense. There has to be a breakthrough piece of technology that takes a deck from mediocre/inconsistent into a deck powerful enough to win games.

I suppose getting the 'right mix' is also part of the equation that can put a deck on the map, which takes a lot of effort but thankfully we have a dedicated group of 4-5 of us that are willing to put in that effort for Ruby Storm. I think the deck is close, maybe 1 card off from being optimal.

The biggest challenge is taking the random factor out of the deck as much as possible, which is difficult because in the color pie red is the most random of any color. It's designed to be chaotic. This is why cards like Act on Impulse are so important for the deck, they give an angle for red to get card advantage/quality without splashing.

[Mr. Safety]

I suppose so, but fruity pebbles was a precursor to trix. I don't fault trix for not running enduring renewal.

Well stated. I don't have the historical context that your experience brings, but I know those two decks (thanks to mtggoldfish, lol.)

[Rampart]

Well stated. I don't have the historical context that your experience brings, but I know those two decks (thanks to mtggoldfish, lol.)

You can find examples of decks being developed long after the printings, RB Reanimator and Dark Depths come to mind. I don't think it matters much though.

Testing on guttersnipe was a bust. It was pretty good but didn't help my problem matchup (4c Pile)

[Mr. Safety]

You can find examples of decks being developed long after the printings, RB Reanimator and Dark Depths come to mind. I don't think it matters much though.

Testing on guttersnipe was a bust. It was pretty good but didn't help my problem matchup (4c Pile)

*cough*BLOOD MOON*cough*

Is everyone still playing both Grapeshot and Goblin War Strike in the sideboard? I am finding the sideboard to be tight (too tight!)

[mistercakes]

Pebbles was the first necropotence combo deck, trix was just a better way to use it in a combo deck, which followed the season later. (old extended)

[Rampart]

Pebbles was the first necropotence combo deck, trix was just a better way to use it in a combo deck, which followed the season later. (old extended)

Thought necro pebbles was called coco pebbles not fruity? also the first Necro Combo decks where really bad Lands Edge decks. This is totally off topic.

[Laser Brains]

I've been following this thread for a little while now, and have toyed with mono red and also mono black storm builds for a few years but never thought of running the "Medallions". This deck is fleshing out nicely and it only goes to prove that there is still a lot of room for brewing in Legacy. Goldfishing this deck is nuts. Congrats on the breakthrough guys!

Have you guys thought about running a lone Anger to win right there on the spot? Seems like between Reforge the Soul and Gamble you should be able to get him in the yard rather easily. The downside is that he takes up a slot in the core 60. Not a huge fan of Faithless Looting in the deck but he interacts nicely with it as well.

@Mr. Safety: It seems like Goblin War Strike should certainly be in the sb as an option to win right there on the spot when you've comboed out with Empty the Warrens but also still happen to have a Burning Wish in hand. This situation has occurred several times for me. That or possibly even Last Chance for an extra turn to attack and/or other tricks. I haven't tested Grapeshot, but it does feel like I can reach this storm count fairly often with PiF. Seems like both should be auto included in the sideboard. What's your guys' recommended sb looking like??

@Mistercakes: Fruity Pebbles was fun. Also don't forget Necro Donate. I've been toying with revisiting that deck again minus the "Necro".

[Mr. Safety]

I've been following this thread for a little while now, and have toyed with mono red and also mono black storm builds for a few years but never thought of running the "Medallions". This deck is fleshing out nicely and it only goes to prove that there is still a lot of room for brewing in Legacy. Goldfishing this deck is nuts. Congrats on the breakthrough guys!

Have you guys thought about running a lone Anger to win right there on the spot? Seems like between Reforge the Soul and Gamble you should be able to get him in the yard rather easily. The downside is that he takes up a slot in the core 60. Not a huge fan of Faithless Looting in the deck but he interacts nicely with it as well.

@Mr. Safety: It seems like Goblin War Strike should certainly be in the sb as an option to win right there on the spot when you've comboed out with Empty the Warrens but also still happen to have a Burning Wish in hand. This situation has occurred several times for me. That or possibly even Last Chance for an extra turn to attack and/or other tricks. I haven't tested Grapeshot, but it does feel like I can reach this storm count fairly often with PiF. Seems like both should be auto included in the sideboard. What's your guys' recommended sb looking like??

@Mistercakes: Fruity Pebbles was fun. Also don't forget Necro Donate. I've been toying with revisiting that deck again minus the "Necro".

I noticed it absent in a few lists, most notably Rampart's 5-0 list. I've killed plenty of times with 20+ goblins, bw > war strike...but I would also have won the next turn with goblins anyways or just going further up the chain into Grapeshot. Not having a Manamorphose available on the combo turn is rare, but it happens, and that enables Tendrils really easily. *shrug* I'll leave it in for now.

In regards to Anger, even as a singleton it would be risky. The deck is so tight that we cannot afford dead cards in the maindeck (another reason for me sideboarding Blood Moon instead of maindeck.) The key parts of the deck winning are resolving Burning Wish, Past in Flames, and the storm enablers like Reforge the Soul. If we get to Empty the Warrens it's usually enough to win the game, haste or not. I could see Burst of Speed in the sideboard, but that does the same as War Strike. What this deck is really great at is rebuilding if the combo turn fizzles or if they deal with the gobbos. Past in Flames is just insanely good at helping this deck in the mid-late game. We're never really dead until our life total is 0.

[Mr. Safety]

Blood Moon is very bad in the main. In the SB sure but this deck need to go off as quickly as possible game 1. If you ruin that this deck is just a worse Belcher. You need your game 1 to be high enough win % to outweigh the fact you will be disadvantaged post board more than likely.



I am learning this! You've definitely got me turned around and I agree with you.

However, still think Blood Moon is very good out of the sideboard.

[Rampart]

I noticed it absent in a few lists, most notably Rampart's 5-0 list. I've killed plenty of times with 20+ goblins, bw > war strike...but I would also have won the next turn with goblins anyways or just going further up the chain into Grapeshot. Not having a Manamorphose available on the combo turn is rare, but it happens, and that enables Tendrils really easily. *shrug* I'll leave it in for now.

In regards to Anger, even as a singleton it would be risky. The deck is so tight that we cannot afford dead cards in the maindeck (another reason for me sideboarding Blood Moon instead of maindeck.) The key parts of the deck winning are resolving Burning Wish, Past in Flames, and the storm enablers like Reforge the Soul. If we get to Empty the Warrens it's usually enough to win the game, haste or not. I could see Burst of Speed in the sideboard, but that does the same as War Strike. What this deck is really great at is rebuilding if the combo turn fizzles or if they deal with the gobbos. Past in Flames is just insanely good at helping this deck in the mid-late game. We're never really dead until our life total is 0.

Why do all that work? lets say you are talking about making 20 goblins with ETW, then casting burning wish for warstrike to finish off the game. It seems to me just as easy to burning wish for Grapeshot, cast grape shot then cast past in flames to flash it back, Double shot. The reason why I can see running a warstrike if you can't get there with goblins but to really warrant wanting a warstrike in your sideboard I would want to have three main deck ETW to support it. I think the real reason that warstrike is not played more is that the sideboard is pretty tight and warstrike is a luxury, and probably my 26th sideboard card.

[mistercakes]

For me the kill card is tendrils, grapeshot, or empty out of the wishboard. I don't feel like there's much of a need for anything else. You could argue a warstrike if you plan on running a lot of maindeck empty. This allows for an easy wish - > war strike for 10 damage after an empty for storm 5.

Because I don't run any maindeck empty, it's not even close to getting a slot for me.

(ah yes it was called cocao pebbles.) I'm getting older and more forgetful!

I highly suggest reading through the thread to see what has been tried so far. It will save you time in the long run!

[Rampart]

I have come to hate the spirit guide. its the worst card ever to flip off Act on Impulse. Is anyone else experiencing the same thing?

[mistercakes]

It's double edged. It's really helpful with 14-15 lands and really good after Reforge.

I agree it sucks when flipping it with AoI, but in every other case it's great.

Without it, I'd play 2 more lands and 2 more business cards. (this assumes you play 4, otherwise maybe 1 land and 1 business card)

[Rampart]

It's double edged. It's really helpful with 14-15 lands and really good after Reforge.

I agree it sucks when flipping it with AoI, but in every other case it's great.

Without it, I'd play 2 more lands and 2 more business cards. (this assumes you play 4, otherwise maybe 1 land and 1 business card)

How I play the deck is very much a PIF deck, and guide is lacking there. For example, a Desperate Ritual is better gas with PIF and AOI and with a medallion or helm out but Guide is better at sticking a turn one medallion or helm or as a card to setup a big combo turn. Ritual is better at generating storm but guide is better baiting and playing around soft counters. IDK. Maybe the answer is not to cut Guide but to shave a AoI.

Also, How many helms are you running right now? out of 1,2 or 3 what feels the best to you right now

[mistercakes]

I was quite happy with 6 rocks, but have been testing 7.

The spirit guides are in there for me mostly for opening hands that are then later not so dead when wheeling.

[ronco]

I'm moving away form SSG as well in favor of (currently) desperate ritual for the same reason of flipping dead on AOI with them. Although I do have gamble trying to find a spot in my 4x probe build right now so those may hit a spot too. I'm finding the only time I want a gamble is getting that first rock out. Is that what those who use gamble generally go for?

[Icapica]

I don't really like Spirit Guides either, but without them I get much worse opening hands. Also I've ended up casting the Guide several times when testing. It's never something I really want to do, but it happens.

I don't run War-Strike, my only wincons are Grapeshot, EtW and Tendrils with Grapeshot being by far the least common kill. I play one Warrens in the maindeck at the moment since it seems to give me a lot of random early low mana kills, but I'm not sure if I wouldn't be better off just moving it to the sideboard too.

I haven't tried Blood Moon, but maybe I should. 4C Control has been very tough.

[solnox]

Going to be taking a break from this deck until it gets more hashed out. Getting crushed too often that I'm bleeding too many tickets. Gotta go farm up with depths before I give it a go again

[Mr. Safety]

I'm moving away form SSG as well in favor of (currently) desperate ritual for the same reason of flipping dead on AOI with them. Although I do have gamble trying to find a spot in my 4x probe build right now so those may hit a spot too. I'm finding the only time I want a gamble is getting that first rock out. Is that what those who use gamble generally go for?

I use Gamble mostly to tutor Past in Flames. I have also used it to tutor up a 2nd Burning Wish (in case the first gets countered, or it baits a counterspell itself), a 2nd Rite of Flame (both in hand/grave do the job usually), and I've even Gamble-d for Empty the Warrens with only 2 cards in hand, with Past in Flames already in the graveyard and plenty of mana floating. What it does for me is provide redundancy of win conditions and extra copies of Past in Flames, giving a ton of consistency. It's also fantastic if you Gamble for Manamorphose/Seething Song/Desperate Ritual right before you cast Past in Flames. If you get it in hand you cast it for more mana. If it gets discarded, you cast Past in Flames and STILL get more mana/storm.
I find it to be a little random, but predictable enough to be a tutor for R. I like that I can board in 2 Blood Moons and sometimes get one with Gamble as well. EDIT: Playing 1 maindeck Empty the Warrens, so Gamble can get that in a pinch as well.

When I tested at the LGS I didn't have Gamble or Blood Moon available. Gamble would have been a HUGE upgrade over relying on blind Reforge the Soul draws. I did post-FNM testing and it was incredible. Most of my testing was against BUG Leovold post-FNM, and that was where Blood Moon won me some games as well. The whole Gamble interaction was what made me start questioning Reforge the Soul and turn to Act on Impulse more. It also means Desperate Ritual is slightly better than SSG within those interactions, because if SSG goes to graveyard it literally did nothing. SSG gives speed, pure and simple. I'm super happy to burn a SSG to get a t1 Medallion because it didn't cost me any storm but the goal was accomplished. T1 Blood Moon is much easier to achieve with SSG as well.

Mana Rocks - I'm testing out 5 (4 Ruby/1Helm), plus 1x Chrome Mox. Mox might be terrible considering we need a critical mass of spells to work and losing even one card can be detrimental. However, it adds to storm count while being a free source of mana to get a t1 Rock out. If it causes too much trouble I'll sub in a 2nd Helm. I bought 4 just in case it becomes stock to go for 8 rocks.

[mistercakes]

I've never tried this in this deck but just thinking out loud:

shrine of burning rage

https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/6v8xiw/storm_decks_have_a_better_win_percentage_on_the/

dunno if this applies to this deck, but maybe worth humoring. (unlikely since we don't have discard, but posting anyway.)

in the comments bryant mentions that it's likely correct to play on the draw vs the slow decks, but not the tempo-based blue decks. that makes sense. a DRS isn't a huge threat, but a turn 1 delver is not something i'd prefer to let my opponent have for free.

[Mr. Safety]

I see that Grinding Station was mentioned, which I think is closer to what we are playing (Past in Flames is a huge emphasis in Grinding Station.)

Cool read. Not sure about Shrine; giving Abrupt Decay/Kolaghen's Command more targets seems bad, but maybe it splits attention between Shrine and Helm/Medallion. I can't imagine sitting on it for several turns, and if we get it to a lethal level with 16-20 counters doesn't Grapeshot do the same thing (and it's tutorable?)

[mistercakes]

Just grasping at straws :)

[Mr. Safety]

With new decks, any card is on the table for testing. :wink:

I was saying in an earlier post that I think the deck is one card off from optimal...the more I play the deck the more I believe that card is Gamble. So many games hinge on finding Past in Flames, which can win the game with only a couple cards in the graveyard (one game I went off with only a GitProbe into Manamorphose into Gamble, Seething Song in graveyard, storm shenanigans, Empty for 18 gobbos FTW.)

I dropped all the Faithless Lootings from the deck in favor of better acceleration/AoI (Mox/Helm) which gives a much better mid-game. I was worried about top decks in the late game, but getting my Act on Impulse count higher (3 currently) really solved that issue as well. Dropping Looting and shuffling things around I am at 2x Reforge/3x Act on Impulse maindeck. I could easily see going 4/1 in favor of Act on Impulse.

I finally BW-ed into Reforge! It was a desperation line against Grixis Delver, with lethal on the board on their side, and I got there with only 2 life remaining. I'll say it again: we're not dead until life total is 0. In that same 5-6 games testing run I also BW > Reforge > Blood Moon t2, g2. Blood Moon is shoring up the bad matchups in a big way. I also punted in a couple of test games and HUF got there for me, once getting me Manamorphose and Burning Wish for Tendrils. This was even after getting my Rite of Flames Surgical-ed. :cool: I think this matchup gets better the more practice I get against it; they are, for the most part, a known quantity while we're the wild card. Not saying its favored, but it isn't a blowout anymore.

Did a few test games against Death and Taxes again with revised list; no Thalia, no problem. Stoneforge into Jitte/BSkull is too slow when we can go off turn 2 (because we know we don't have to worry about Force.) One of the more common matchups that we really don't need to worry about unless we draw really poorly and let them establish a mid-game lock.

Next matchup to test is definitely Sneak/Show, and I think I need to test against Br Reanimator. Sideboard 2x Surgical helps with that matchup, especially because we can have a chance even on the draw to stop them (one situation where Simian Spirit Guide to fight through a Chancellor trigger would be solid.)

[ronco]

This is one of the decks I can test against and my experience vs reanimator is that it is a very very tough matchup. I have a mono black run with lots of disruption and the standard creature base of Gris, Tidespout, 4 chancellors, and an Aurelia, the Warleader (it was my personal touch lol). The helms really speed up the reanimator deck that much more which is even worse for us (Ruby Storm) and blood moon doesn't do much here either (for mono black. Would be of SOME help vs BRx).

Do you think 2 surgicals is enough to get them in your hand early enough to work? Is there room for a 3rd/4th?

[Mr. Safety]

This is one of the decks I can test against and my experience vs reanimator is that it is a very very tough matchup. I have a mono black run with lots of disruption and the standard creature base of Gris, Tidespout, 4 chancellors, and an Aurelia, the Warleader (it was my personal touch lol). The helms really speed up the reanimator deck that much more which is even worse for us (Ruby Storm) and blood moon doesn't do much here either (for mono black. Would be of SOME help vs BRx).

Do you think 2 surgicals is enough to get them in your hand early enough to work? Is there room for a 3rd/4th?

Long story short: the count of Pyroblast/Defense Grid could be tweaked to include another Surgical. I could see going to 3 Surgical/2 Pyroblast instead of the other way around.

I wouldn't board in Blood Moon, or anything else really. I would just board in the Surgicals, mulligan aggressively for them, and try to use Gamble to find extra copies. If they have the t1, well, that's just something we have to live with. We can't optimize against every deck. I think for the most part the blue matchups are where we should spend most of our attention; they will definitely, almost always, be more common.

Runeflare Trap would be hilarious but too gimmicky. Maybe its time to start considering Mindbreak Trap, or go old school with Tormod's Crypt (like Rampart did in his 5-0 list)

EDIT: Ensnaring Bridge, or even Meekstone might be solid tech (colorless so Iona doesn't shut it off, an it can come down t1.) Meekstone would be hilarious...because they would have used more cards than us and we could literally wait for them to mill out because they will likely not have an answer for it. Meekstone = one attack, then we wait out the game lol.

Now, Grafdigger's Cage...it shuts off Past in Flames, but we can still go for EtW. Maybe we start looking at boarding out Past in Flames in favor of permanent-based hate. We will always have access to it with Burning Wish, so if we need to we can use multiple burning wishes to get our By Force (for our own Cage) and use it the turn we go off. It's quite the long winding path, but if it means we shore up the matchup I think it could be feasible.

[ronco]

you snuck in while I was editing my above post...
What about moving in an additional Etw? I think (off the top of my head) the best route to go would be surgicals and additional Etw with the hopes of going off T1 with a slew of gobbos to outrace a non-Gris creature that lands. Since we don't have access to an StP type card (that I know of), 1st turn gris might be just, as you said, tough luck.

[Mr. Safety]

you snuck in while I was editing my above post...
What about moving in an additional Etw? I think (off the top of my head) the best route to go would be surgicals and additional Etw with the hopes of going off T1 with a slew of gobbos to outrace a non-Gris creature that lands. Since we don't have access to an StP type card (that I know of), 1st turn gris might be just, as you said, tough luck.

I'm more afraid of t1 Iona, honestly. It shuts off 95% of our deck and leaves only dead cards that we could play. T1 Gris essentially does the same thing though, because they can just double Bargain for 14 cards, get Petal/Ritual/Entomb/Reanimate Iona. That same sequence with Chancellor is also tough, essentially the same as Thalia out of DnT (but faster, bigger, meaner...)

EDIT: Stranglehold? Probably garbage...

[Icapica]

If you're really afraid of turn one shenanigans from Reanimator, there's always Faerie Macabre. It's instant speed, costs 0 and dodges Chancellor.

[procobrito]

What about the new Sunbird's Invocation from Ixalan?

5R

Enchantment
Whenever you cast a spell from your hand, reveal the top X cards of your library, where X is that spell's converted mana cost. You may cast a card revealed this way with converted mana cost X or less without paying its mana cost. Put the rest on the bottom of your library in a random order.


The 5R hurt a lot, but any chance that work better than Hazoret?

[Mr. Safety]

Now that is a good idea! I think I'll go 2x Surgical/1x Macabre for now.

Nice work.

[Mr. Safety]

What about the new Sunbird's Invocation from Ixalan?

5R

Enchantment
Whenever you cast a spell from your hand, reveal the top X cards of your library, where X is that spell's converted mana cost. You may cast a card revealed this way with converted mana cost X or less without paying its mana cost. Put the rest on the bottom of your library in a random order.


The 5R hurt a lot, but any chance that work better than Hazoret?

No way is that better than Hazoret's, not by a long shot. Hazoret's does the job itself for 5-6 mana, and immediately goes to work. The enchantment does literally nothing unless you have a ton of mana available and cards still in hand (or an active Past in Flames) If we have a ton of mana we are going for Past in Flames/flashback a ton of stuff/Burning Wish FTW. Hazoret's also just grabs the cards off the top of the library, which means we aren't dependent on our hand or the graveyard to get the 3-4 spells it gives us.

[procobrito]

No way is that better than Hazoret's, not by a long shot. Hazoret's does the job itself for 5-6 mana, and immediately goes to work. The enchantment does literally nothing unless you have a ton of mana available and cards still in hand (or an active Past in Flames) If we have a ton of mana we are going for Past in Flames/flashback a ton of stuff/Burning Wish FTW. Hazoret's also just grabs the cards off the top of the library, which means we aren't dependent on our hand or the graveyard to get the 3-4 spells it gives us.

True, and you can use Hazoret's with past in flames, the enchantment don't. When you reach the 6 manas, your hand is probably empty

[vieko]

This is one of the decks I can test against and my experience vs reanimator is that it is a very very tough matchup. I have a mono black run with lots of disruption and the standard creature base of Gris, Tidespout, 4 chancellors, and an Aurelia, the Warleader (it was my personal touch lol). The helms really speed up the reanimator deck that much more which is even worse for us (Ruby Storm) and blood moon doesn't do much here either (for mono black. Would be of SOME help vs BRx).

Do you think 2 surgicals is enough to get them in your hand early enough to work? Is there room for a 3rd/4th?

It is a tough matchup but not impossible. I bring in 2 Tormod's Crypts + 2 Scab-Clan Berserkers against BR Reanimator. Mull to Crypt if your 7 is not fast enough and you are more than fine... take out Helms G2/G3 of course ;) If you lose, you lose... it's gonna happen!

[vieko]

What about the new Sunbird's Invocation from Ixalan?

5R

Enchantment
Whenever you cast a spell from your hand, reveal the top X cards of your library, where X is that spell's converted mana cost. You may cast a card revealed this way with converted mana cost X or less without paying its mana cost. Put the rest on the bottom of your library in a random order.


The 5R hurt a lot, but any chance that work better than Hazoret?

I've seen this at 3R actually... not a terrible one-of, a permanent effect and without the downsides of Hazoret's Undying Fury (which is too random of a card IMO).

[Rampart]

Reanimator is just a unsalvagable matchup. I keep a crypt in my board to pair with the couple gambles to hedge, but unless you devote 4-5 slots in your board your not going to budge the % points at all. I would rather focus on racing that matchup then loose more sideboard slots for stuff you see more often

[mistercakes]

I'm with vieko here. 2 crypts is enough. With 2 Gamble you're looking at a good chance to have hate vs them.

If they turn 1 you on the play... Good for them. Their deck has a ton of variance. Occasionally they will get the nuts.

[MGB]

Did you guys ever consider splashing blue for Baral, Chief of Compliance?

[vieko]

Did you guys ever consider splashing blue for Baral, Chief of Compliance?

I splashed blue for Epic Experiment :)

[vieko]

Reanimator is just a unsalvagable matchup. I keep a crypt in my board to pair with the couple gambles to hedge, but unless you devote 4-5 slots in your board your not going to budge the % points at all. I would rather focus on racing that matchup then loose more sideboard slots for stuff you see more often

YUP... this right here ^^^

[Mr. Safety]

Reanimator is just a unsalvagable matchup. I keep a crypt in my board to pair with the couple gambles to hedge, but unless you devote 4-5 slots in your board your not going to budge the % points at all. I would rather focus on racing that matchup then loose more sideboard slots for stuff you see more often

Do you like Crypt better than Surgical Extraction, or was it a nod to availability? I was thinking Extraction has uses against more than just reanimator, whereas Crypt is a pure, one-shot grave hate (that doesn't work with Past in Flames.)

@MGB: I haven't tried Baral, but once you have blue...Intuition? Gifts Ungiven? Brainstorm/Ponder/Preordain? I think it leads to a splash slippery slope. Not saying it wouldn't be good, but to my knowledge nobody in here has tried it.

[mistercakes]

Crypt was from the list I had posted a while back, for which rampart used.

The reasoning behind this is very simple. Permanents are much more difficult to deal with than instants and to a lesser degree faerie macabre. (cabal therapy recommended, the user not the card)

Crypt can also be drawn after a Reforge or off of AoI and easily played. Additionally Crypt is much much better Vs ANT.

[vieko]

Crypt was from the list I had posted a while back, for which rampart used.

The reasoning behind this is very simple. Permanents are much more difficult to deal with than instants and to a lesser degree faerie macabre. (cabal therapy recommended, the user not the card)

Crypt can also be drawn after a Reforge or off of AoI and easily played. Additionally Crypt is much much better Vs ANT.

This here ^^^ Crypt paces the game until it is used / removed... they can't go off without dealing with it. Surgical is a surprise / one time solution.

[vieko]

5-0 last night with the list below

EDITED: list was added to MTGGoldfish today: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/739068#paper

RUBY STORM 5.2

15 LAND
13 Mountain
2 City of Traitors

8 RITUAL
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song

8 MANA
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

5 TUTOR
4 Burning Wish
1 Gamble

4 REDUCTION
4 Ruby Medallion

4 EXILE / PLAY
4 Act on Impulse

4 MANA / DRAW
4 Manamorphose

4 PEEK / DRAW
4 Gitaxian Probe

3 DAMAGE
3 Guttersnipe

3 FLASHBACK
3 Past in Flames

2 STORM
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens


SIDEBOARD
2 Defense Grid
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Kozilek's Return
2 Scab-Clan Berserker
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
1 By Force
1 Pyroclasm
1 Sudden Demise


FEW NOTES

I landed six 4-1s, two 3-2s and one X-3 with the above list before finally getting to a 5-0
Sideboard is skewed against D&T and all the creature hate I was running into yesterday
Typically: 2 Abrades instead of the Kozilek's Return and 1 Pyroclasm instead of the Sudden Demise
Guttersnipe has been fantastic for me :) So funny I get to play this card and bust people with it




MATCHES
M1 vs Control4Daze on Storm (2-1)
M2 vs DaPlaya on Mono Red Prison (2-0)
M3 vs nola_gold on Lands (2-0)
M4 vs Shrines on Storm (2-0)
M5 vs Shrines on Storm (2-1)

:)

[mistercakes]

Relentless with the LED build. Glad to see it payoff. Also great idea with the guttersnipe! (whoever recommended that a few days ago. Really funny to see it work!)

[Mr. Safety]

Guttersnipe is nutty in that mix of decks, there's hardly any removal (save Punishing Fire out of the Lands deck.) Guttersnipe is basically Tendrils in those matchups.

Noteworthy differences:
0 Reforge the Soul
0 Helm of Awakening
0 Simian Spirit Guide
0 Desperate Ritual

4x Act on Impulse
4x LED
3x Guttersnipe
1x Grapeshot (maindeck)

EDIT: its interesting that with your version you are spending 0 mana, discarding your remaining cards to gain +3 mana with LED whereas in the non-LED builds we are spending 4-5 mana, discarding the remaining cards in hand for +7 cards. I guess the real question is which is better. I tend to think Reforge the Soul can be great in some matchups (non-blue) and horrible in the blue matchups. I think I'll go up to 4 Act on Impulse and leave only 1 Reforge in the board.

That maindeck Grapeshot seems really sexy, too. Grapeshot for 7-8, past in flames, grapeshot for the rest.

[Mr. Safety]

Crypt was from the list I had posted a while back, for which rampart used.

The reasoning behind this is very simple. Permanents are much more difficult to deal with than instants and to a lesser degree faerie macabre. (cabal therapy recommended, the user not the card)

Crypt can also be drawn after a Reforge or off of AoI and easily played. Additionally Crypt is much much better Vs ANT.

Makes perfect sense. I think in my metagame Surgical is better, simply for dealing with Forces etc from all the fair blue decks. I think in a large tournament I would play Crypts. While Surgical does exile Infernal Tutors with past in flames on the stack, Crypt gets everything.

[ronco]

Nice work!

[mistercakes]

Crypt also keeps Storm off of threshold and spell Mastery in addition to the obvious PiF.

Crypt is extremely good on the play vs reanimator as well,even if they have chancellor.

Surgical might be better Vs the blue decks, but I don't think I would ever side it in vs blue decks.

[Mr. Safety]

I'm tinkering with siding out Past in Flames. We will always have it available via Burning Wish, and the more common blue decks play Deathrite Shaman plus Surgical/Nihil Spellbomb in the board. That gives me 3 flex slots to bring in Pyroblast, Blood Moon, and Surgicals. Some number of Gitaxian probe get sided out as well to get the right amount of hate in. Plan is to brute force an Empty the Warrens, or land a Blood Moon, and win from there.

[Kelv]

Managed to go 3-0 in a weekly with this deck last night. No gambles in the list because I couldn't find them, 3 helms because of high D+T presence in local meta. First time running the deck, I didn't expect it to actually perform near as well as it did. Nobody in the area plays degenerate combo decks, so some players were inexperienced against it and didn't mull aggressively enough to find Force or discard

R1: Grixis Delver
Game 1 he didn't know what I was on. I started off on a mull to 5, but his draws bricked and he drew 3 lands in a row, never saw a force. I had just enough redundancy to play through probe + therapy. Eventually made goblins and got there
Game 2 he applied hard early pressure. I combo'd off, had mana to pay for his 2 dazes. I was dead on board but burning wish -> Cave in killed 2 flipped delvers, a pyro, and a deathrite while I was at 6. Continued comboing from there, made goblins. 2-0

R2: D+T
Game 1 I mull to 5, end up miracleing reforge twice to find things to combo off. Eventually, ruby medallion + Helm beat out Thalia, I made goblins
Game 2 T2 canonist, T3 Thalia kills me.
Game 3 T1 Medallion. His T1 he plays grafdiggers cage. My T2 I make 14 goblins.

R3: BUG Delver
Game 1 He knows what I'm on, but doesn't know what the deck does. I play past dazes, end up grapeshotting him out.
Game 2 Turn 2 blood moon buys me enough time to get there with grapeshot. He had a T1 Deathrite, T2 goyf, so he actually had pressure to threaten me.

Overall, I got very lucky with opponents not finding hate cards and countermagic more than anything, but even so, the deck felt a lot stronger than I gave it credit for.

[mistercakes]

Which list did ya run

[Mr. Safety]

Managed to go 3-0 in a weekly with this deck last night. No gambles in the list because I couldn't find them, 3 helms because of high D+T presence in local meta. First time running the deck, I didn't expect it to actually perform near as well as it did. Nobody in the area plays degenerate combo decks, so some players were inexperienced against it and didn't mull aggressively enough to find Force or discard

R1: Grixis Delver
Game 1 he didn't know what I was on. I started off on a mull to 5, but his draws bricked and he drew 3 lands in a row, never saw a force. I had just enough redundancy to play through probe + therapy. Eventually made goblins and got there
Game 2 he applied hard early pressure. I combo'd off, had mana to pay for his 2 dazes. I was dead on board but burning wish -> Cave in killed 2 flipped delvers, a pyro, and a deathrite while I was at 6. Continued comboing from there, made goblins. 2-0

R2: D+T
Game 1 I mull to 5, end up miracleing reforge twice to find things to combo off. Eventually, ruby medallion + Helm beat out Thalia, I made goblins
Game 2 T2 canonist, T3 Thalia kills me.
Game 3 T1 Medallion. His T1 he plays grafdiggers cage. My T2 I make 14 goblins.

R3: BUG Delver
Game 1 He knows what I'm on, but doesn't know what the deck does. I play past dazes, end up grapeshotting him out.
Game 2 Turn 2 blood moon buys me enough time to get there with grapeshot. He had a T1 Deathrite, T2 goyf, so he actually had pressure to threaten me.

Overall, I got very lucky with opponents not finding hate cards and countermagic more than anything, but even so, the deck felt a lot stronger than I gave it credit for.

Non-blue decks (that aren't reanimator) are good matchups for the deck. I haven't lost a match to DnT yet. Grixis/Bug decks are harder but I'm glad to see you had Moon available, I am finding that to be key in those matchups. How many Blood Moons were you playing? Main/side?

[mistercakes]

i've lost a few to DNT, even when i was running Chandra in the deck.

maindeck they have mother of runes, thalia, 1 prelate, +recruiters, and their mana base attacks ours pretty well. revoker is okay vs non led build, and much better vs the led build.
postboard it gets way worse with ethersworn canonist, more prelate, rest in peace, surgicals etc.

i think i'm about 50/50 vs dnt in mtgo leagues. i only played it once irl and did win, but who knows if i was lucky or not. i was talking about vieko about this and he thinks the matchup is also not something you should go in thinking you're way ahead.

[Icapica]

Yeah I've had bad experiences against D&T. I know we're fast enough that we can often win before their hate comes online, but we're not always that fast. Thalia can come turn 2 and if they get Prelate, things get very difficult.

[Mr. Safety]

Didn't mean its a cakewalk, I just mean we can take more aggressive lines because we have to get in under Thalia.

[mistercakes]

only bringing it up because you mentioned "Non-blue decks (that aren't reanimator) are good matchups for the deck. I haven't lost a match to DnT yet."

i don't want other players to get discouraged when losing to dnt, because in reality the matchup isn't as favorable as this statement implies. it also might keep us from identifying cards that would improve the matchups.

[Icapica]

Yeah I lost to RG lands 2-1 yesterday thanks to turn 1 Sphere of Resistance and turn 2 Thorn of Amethyst in games 2 and 3. Helms and Medallions could help, but they're very difficult to get in play once Spheres are already there.

[Mr. Safety]

only bringing it up because you mentioned "Non-blue decks (that aren't reanimator) are good matchups for the deck. I haven't lost a match to DnT yet."

i don't want other players to get discouraged when losing to dnt, because in reality the matchup isn't as favorable as this statement implies. it also might keep us from identifying cards that would improve the matchups.

Totally agree. Sometimes its hard to convey 'tone' on an internet statement. Appreciate the clarification.

[mistercakes]

Yeah I lost to RG lands 2-1 yesterday thanks to turn 1 Sphere of Resistance and turn 2 Thorn of Amethyst in games 2 and 3. Helms and Medallions could help, but they're very difficult to get in play once Spheres are already there.

If you're up against a meta with lots of rock hate, like lands and dnt it's possible you'll want to run Abrade or more by force. Spirit guides can also help as they ramp without being taxed.

[Mr. Safety]

I think Sphere of Resistance and Trinisphere are two of the best cards against our deck (and thalia, but we have at least a decent way to deal with Thalia in Cave-In.)

Is Manamorphose enough to power up Engineered Explosives? I haven't played against Thorn yet, but I feel like Manic Vandal or Ingot Chewer are decent options. Chewer especially because it only costs one mana to kill Chalice because of the evoke cost, two with Sphere of Resistance, and still only 1 with Thorn. Not a bad threat either if stranded in hand, although a 3/3 for 5 is nothing special.

[mistercakes]

if you want to dodge chalice there's plenty of cards.

shattering spree comes to mind. (it also gets around teeg)

[Mr. Safety]

if you want to dodge chalice there's plenty of cards.

shattering spree comes to mind. (it also gets around teeg)

Doesn't shattering spree get auto-countered by Chalice@1? I know you can replicate it for R, but does that change the converted mana cost? Never really run into that before...

EDIT: Is it because they are copies? So the first one gets countered but the copies resolve because they aren't cast?

[Icapica]

Yeah the copies aren't cast so they're not countered. Also no effect on the converted mana cost.

[Mr. Safety]

Made a big dent in getting cards for the deck. Ensnaring Bridge, Cave-In, Helm of Awakening. Looking forward to jamming the deck in a week or two at FNM.

[Laser Brains]

I'm fairly close too. I have everything except the Ensnaring Bridges for the sideboard.

Nobody has posted a list in a while, I'd like to see what you guys are running. Mine is posted below. Hopefully I'll be able to contribute more in the future for match up analysis. I'll be testing it against Eldrazi & Taxes, BR Reanimator and BUG Delver with results. All three of which I think can be tough match ups. Not that Eldrazi & Taxes is super common, but still think that match up could be tough and it IS in my meta.

Btw, I still like Simian Spirit Guide main deck. Even though you can't grab it off AoI, 4 Lotus Petals doesn't quite feel like enough and after Reforge the Soul or in your opening hand it is amazing.

I recently dropped down to 2x main deck Reforge the Soul and 1x on the sb. Anyway, here's my list. EDIT: Thoughts??

//Finishers: 6
3x Burning Wish
3x Empty the Warrens

//Draw / Utility: 10
4x Act on Impulse
3x Past in Flames
2x Reforge the Soul
1x Gamble

//Cantrips: 8
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Manamorphos

//Rituals: 12
4x Seething Song
4x Rite of Flame
2x Desperate Ritual
2x Simian Spirit Guide

//Rocks: 10
4x Lotus Petal
4x Ruby Medallion
2x Helm of Awakening

//Land: 14
3x Ancient Tomb
1x City of Traitors
4x Mountain

//Sideboard: 15
2x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Blood Moon
2x Scab-Clan Berserker
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Grapeshot
1x Past in Flames
1x Reforge the Soul
1x Goblin War Strike
1x Shattering Spree
1x Pyroclasm
1x Flame Slash

[mistercakes]

deck list looks good. if warrens improves those matches it's prob worth it. otherwise i'd rather have the 4th wish over the 3rd warrens.

[Laser Brains]

Thank you! Yeah, maybe you are right about cutting a EtW for another Wish. Wish has more utility although there are games where I don't get either enough draw or cantrips and I can just EtW off of ramp into 8-12 goblins.

Also, I forgot to add my Tormod's Crypts into my sideboard. Not sure what to cut but I'm guessing I need to at the very least run 2. Probably cut Flame Slash and either Goblin War Strike or Grapeshot. Not sure which one is more important.

Also, Mistercakes and Mr. Safety, what are your recommended lists at the moment? You guys appear to have contributed the most so far as in testing. Thanks!

[mistercakes]

Will post tomorrow. If you have LEDs, maybe vieko can post his latest build. I know he has the most experience with the deck at this point. He's just not as active. I've been traveling a lot for work and been busy with the baby.

[vieko]

Will post tomorrow. If you have LEDs, maybe vieko can post his latest build. I know he has the most experience with the deck at this point. He's just not as active. I've been traveling a lot for work and been busy with the baby.

Goblin War Strike > Flame Slash ... I would swap it :)

This is what I'm running online right now, I keep on adjusting the SB – the MB is just about perfect IMHO:

RUBY STORM 5.3

15 LAND
13 Mountain
2 City of Traitors

8 RITUAL
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song

8 MANA
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

5 TUTOR
4 Burning Wish
1 Gamble

4 DAMAGE
4 Guttersnipe

4 REDUCTION
4 Ruby Medallion

4 EXILE / PLAY
4 Act on Impulse

4 MANA / DRAW
4 Manamorphose

4 PEEK / DRAW
4 Gitaxian Probe

3 FLASHBACK
3 Past in Flames

1 STORM
1 Empty the Warrens


SIDEBOARD
2 Defense Grid
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Scab-Clan Berserker
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
1 Grapeshot
1 By Force
1 Pyroclasm
1 Shattering Spree
1 Anger of the Gods

[mistercakes]

i think it's best to think of this deck w/ the minimum amount of each card:

4 ruby medallion
4 lotus petal
4 seething song
4 rite of flame
4 burning wish
4 act on impulse
4 manamorphose
2 past in flames
10 mountain

sb should contain one of the following (minimum)

1 past in flames
1 grapeshot
1 empty the warrens

in addition cards that have been played:
upping the lands to 13, 14, 15 or 16
this can be done with

mountains
ancient tomb
city of traitors
crystal vein

after lands:

past in flames
reforge the soul
hazoret's undying fury
empty the warrens
desperate ritual
simian spirit guide
helm of awakening
guttersnipe
lion's eye diamond
commune with lava
gitaxian probe
gamble
chandra, torch of defiance
defense grid
magma jet
insult / injury
faithless looting

sideboard cards in addition to the 3 mandatory ones

tendrils of agony
cave-in
reforge the soul
goblin war strike
abrade
fiery confluence
pyroclasm
kozilek's return
abrade
by force
defense grid
tormod's crypt
scab-clan berserker
hazoret's undying fury
pyroblast
red elemental blast
pyrokinesis
chaos warp


i'm sure there is more we haven't explored yet, but this is a growing list. will add this to the primer as it helps brewing with this deck.

I would like to test Pyromancer Ascension again. It was in the very first draft, and am curious how powerful it could be. If anyone has time and is willing to test I'm a bit lacking for time!

[Memories of the Time]

@Vieko: i really like your list and mine is quite the same, but i can't understand guttersnipe. I mean, it's a powerfull creature that can resolve some situations... but it's our only creature, giving a target to oppo's removals and vs most of the field it dies after the first spell we cast. Moreover it's a cc3, not so light.

I've cut the goblin and 1 PiF to add 2 Gamble, 2 Wheel and an Helm, and i'm loving the decklist. I think that gamble is too good, even just for having a reliable access to sideboard cards.

[Mr. Safety]

I was getting to a closer list, but then I worked in Overmaster x3. I really like the idea of a cheap disruption, and at a minimum it cantrips. That gives us up to 12 straight cantrips that are mana efficient (Manamorphose, GitProbe, Overmaster.) I found in so many situations the real hitch was resolving a payoff spell (Burning Wish, Past in Flames, Reforge the Soul, Hazoret's Undying Fury.) Also, with Overmaster main that means I can cut sideboard copies of Pyroblast (which are good, but not great) for additional spells that can do a lot more work (Abrade, Ensnaring Bridge.) Current list with sideboard:


Rituals - 11
4x Rite of Flame
3x Desperate Ritual
4x Seething Song

Artifacts - 10
4x Lotus Petal
4x Ruby Medallion
1x Helm of Awakening
1x Chrome Mox

Draw - 6
4x Manamorphose
2x Act on Impulse

Disruption/Peek - 7
3x Overmaster
4x Gitaxian Probe

Storm Engines - 5
3x Past in Flames
2x Hazoret's Undying Fury

Tutors/Win Conditions - 7
4x Burning Wish
2x Gamble
1x Empty the Warrens

Lands - 14
10x Mountain
4x Crystal Vein

Sideboard
1x Past in Flames (wish)
1x Empty the Warrens (wish)
1x Tendrils of Agony (wish)
1x Grapeshot (wish)
1x Cave-In (wish)
1x By Force (wish)
1x Reforge the Soul
2x Blood Moon
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Scab-Clan Berserker
2x Pyroblast


So far, the extra cheap cantrip of Overmaster has been better than feeding countermagic to opponents with Wheels. I love the 1-of Wheel in the sideboard, but maindeck it is just too risky. Much happier with Act on Impulse, which I would love to get a 3rd copy in there. I will test for a good amount of games, probably 20 or so, and then see which card can be cut. Preliminary ideas for the cut would be the Chrome Mox, a GitProbe, a Desperate Ritual, or the Helm of Awakening. Everything else seems to be necessary for me. I won't budge on the 2 Gambles because they are ways to functionally get my 1-of non-BW sideboard cards g2-3.

@mistercakes: you somehow omitted Gitaxian Probe in your most recent post of potential cards.

[mistercakes]

Oops! Will fix. I would cut a hazoret's and a past in flames probably. (or the mox) for 2 AoI.

[Mr. Safety]

Yeah, the mox was my first pick. I want to try one instead of a Simian Spirit Guide. It gets my free mana sources up to 5 (4 Petal/1mox) and it's really good with Reforge the Soul with extra cards to pitch. Maybe it's better as just a SSG, but I think if its no good I'll just slot in the 3rd AoI.

Hazoret's I have a love/hate relationship with. I haven't really had bad flips with it, but I have had it stuck in hand plenty of times. Maybe its better as a 1-of, and maybe zero. I don't want it in my sideboard, its just too much mana (when 4-5 mana gets me Wheel and 7 fresh cards.) With only 1 copy I will never flip another one, lol, which makes good sense but reduces the chance of it being a factor in gameplay. With Gamble, I will almost always have it available in a pinch, so maybe it's the right place for AoI.

[vieko]

@Vieko: i really like your list and mine is quite the same, but i can't understand guttersnipe. I mean, it's a powerfull creature that can resolve some situations... but it's our only creature, giving a target to oppo's removals and vs most of the field it dies after the first spell we cast. Moreover it's a cc3, not so light.

I've cut the goblin and 1 PiF to add 2 Gamble, 2 Wheel and an Helm, and i'm loving the decklist. I think that gamble is too good, even just for having a reliable access to sideboard cards.

Guttersnipe's won me games I would've otherwise lost... I'm testing Faithless Looting (again) in place of the 'snipe but find it just O.K... I've ran multiple Gambles and they are simply not what I want to get unless the game goes long.

:)

[vieko]

I was getting to a closer list, but then I worked in Overmaster x3. I really like the idea of a cheap disruption, and at a minimum it cantrips. That gives us up to 12 straight cantrips that are mana efficient (Manamorphose, GitProbe, Overmaster.) I found in so many situations the real hitch was resolving a payoff spell (Burning Wish, Past in Flames, Reforge the Soul, Hazoret's Undying Fury.) Also, with Overmaster main that means I can cut sideboard copies of Pyroblast (which are good, but not great) for additional spells that can do a lot more work (Abrade, Ensnaring Bridge.) Current list with sideboard:


Rituals - 11
4x Rite of Flame
3x Desperate Ritual
4x Seething Song

Artifacts - 10
4x Lotus Petal
4x Ruby Medallion
1x Helm of Awakening
1x Chrome Mox

Draw - 6
4x Manamorphose
2x Act on Impulse

Disruption/Peek - 7
3x Overmaster
4x Gitaxian Probe

Storm Engines - 5
3x Past in Flames
2x Hazoret's Undying Fury

Tutors/Win Conditions - 7
4x Burning Wish
2x Gamble
1x Empty the Warrens

Lands - 14
10x Mountain
4x Crystal Vein

Sideboard
1x Past in Flames (wish)
1x Empty the Warrens (wish)
1x Tendrils of Agony (wish)
1x Grapeshot (wish)
1x Cave-In (wish)
1x By Force (wish)
1x Reforge the Soul
2x Blood Moon
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Scab-Clan Berserker
2x Pyroblast


So far, the extra cheap cantrip of Overmaster has been better than feeding countermagic to opponents with Wheels. I love the 1-of Wheel in the sideboard, but maindeck it is just too risky. Much happier with Act on Impulse, which I would love to get a 3rd copy in there. I will test for a good amount of games, probably 20 or so, and then see which card can be cut. Preliminary ideas for the cut would be the Chrome Mox, a GitProbe, a Desperate Ritual, or the Helm of Awakening. Everything else seems to be necessary for me. I won't budge on the 2 Gambles because they are ways to functionally get my 1-of non-BW sideboard cards g2-3.

@mistercakes: you somehow omitted Gitaxian Probe in your most recent post of potential cards.


@mrsafety: tested Overlord before, results were just O.K. for me... but do keep us posted. Mistercakes hates on Probe whenever possible ;) sometimes subconsciously.

[Memories of the Time]

Guttersnipe's won me games I would've otherwise lost... I'm testing Faithless Looting (again) in place of the 'snipe but find it just O.K... I've ran multiple Gambles and they are simply not what I want to get unless the game goes long.

:)

Yeah, but what i can't understand is: how is it possibile that in Snipe just don't die immediately? Having just 1 target for oppo's removals and no protections seems too risky for me. Obviously he's nuts against Combo and Prison, but against any control/midrange/tempo deck?

[Mr. Safety]

Guttersnipe's won me games I would've otherwise lost... I'm testing Faithless Looting (again) in place of the 'snipe but find it just O.K... I've ran multiple Gambles and they are simply not what I want to get unless the game goes long.

:)

Looting I think gets way better with LED. You're much more committed to Past in Flames and Looting feeds right into that. I ended up scrapping Looting for Act on Impulse, which I wasn't playing nearly enough of. The big fear for me, which happened several times, is that Looting makes you vulnerable to early Deathrite Shamans. If you're banking on flashing back Past in Flames, or any of your rituals, Looting makes a nice fat target for Deathrite Shaman. If all you are doing is discarding excess lands you're fine, but if it's spells it becomes a real slog. Again, just my limited experience with the card. I loved that it provided a more proactive game turns 1-3, getting the kill turn set up better. If Overmaster becomes a dud that is definitely a spot I could see Looting being tried again.

Regarding Gamble, I haven't had a situation where it was dead or it punished me for playing it. I have several times Gamble-d for a redundant card in hand like Burning Wish, which can bait a counterspell really nicely. If it doesn't I'm still in the same position, and Burning Wish (or whaterver I tutored for) in the graveyard is usually ok (unless there's an active Deathrite Shaman...so much splash damage against our deck!) I've played it mostly for Past in Flames and Rite of Flame, but also for Seething Song, Empty the Warrens, Burning Wish, Hazoret's, and Overmaster. Mana hasn't been my big hiccup with the deck; it has been utilizing that mana for a payoff spell that wins. Adding one R to the mix to play Gamble has been easy to achieve, and gives a bunch of redundancy.

I found a Guttersnipe in my random card boxes, but I'm not sure testing a singleton would give me any real info. How many were you playing?

EDIT: You called Overmaster Overlord...were you referencing Lamb of God? If so, you made my day! \m/

[Laser Brains]

Vieko, I like your new list and saw that you swept your last tourney. I'm testing your exact list right now. There are so many dirty tricks with LED and from my testing and from experience playing Belcher and Burning Reanimator I can't see why they wouldn't be a staple in the deck. LED + Act on Impulse, LED + Burning Wish and LED + Past in Flames etc.. Plus I found that getting the BB for Tendrils was so much easier. It's just too good to not include. It's interesting though that the deck goes off no problem without them as well.

So far I'm not totally sold on the Guttersnipes though. Although, I might just be bad at playing your build. I can't seem to get Guttersnipe to go lethal. Ideally I want to get him in play before I go off but usually by the time I get him there I've had to cast all of my rituals and have no fuel left to get him to deal damage. I just can't seem to get him on the table before I go off. I did have one game where I had enough mana to Grapeshot for 7 and Guttersnipe did 10 putting my opponent at 3 on turn two but it wasn't enough to finish him off. I did see some potential where I could have gotten two Guttersnipes in play which could have dished out some pain but I didn't have enough mana left to cast the remaining rituals in my hand. I'm gonna play your build more though. Perhaps I was just either getting bad draws or just need to get better at it.

@mistercakes: That is a good guide to go by and I'm now only running two main EtW and four main Burning Wish. As for the land count 14 feels correct. 10 Mountains and some sort of combination of City of Traitors and Ancient Tomb. More budget friendly builds can run Crystal Vein or even Sandstone Needle. Crystal Vein is fine but with City and Tomb you can get a turn one Ruby and turn two you can tap them again. Crystal Vein you lose the land if you do this. It's still good though.

@Mr. Safety: I'm also liking the idea of Overmaster. At the very least they cycle plus they cycle again with Past in Flames which is huge. You can protect your PiF and then again protect your Wish. I'm going to give it a test. Btw, I see you are only running 2 AoI. Are you missing them or does that count feel correct?

[Mr. Safety]

Vieko, I like your new list and saw that you swept your last tourney. I'm testing your exact list right now. There are so many dirty tricks with LED and from my testing and from experience playing Belcher and Burning Reanimator I can't see why they wouldn't be a staple in the deck. LED + Act on Impulse, LED + Burning Wish and LED + Past in Flames etc.. Plus I found that getting the BB for Tendrils was so much easier. It's just too good to not include. It's interesting though that the deck goes off no problem without them as well.

So far I'm not totally sold on the Guttersnipes though. Although, I might just be bad at playing your build. I can't seem to get Guttersnipe to go lethal. Ideally I want to get him in play before I go off but usually by the time I get him there I've had to cast all of my rituals and have no fuel left to get him to deal damage. I just can't seem to get him on the table before I go off. I did have one game where I had enough mana to Grapeshot for 7 and Guttersnipe did 10 putting my opponent at 3 on turn two but it wasn't enough to finish him off. I did see some potential where I could have gotten two Guttersnipes in play which could have dished out some pain but I didn't have enough mana left to cast the remaining rituals in my hand. I'm gonna play your build more though. Perhaps I was just either getting bad draws or just need to get better at it.

@mistercakes: That is a good guide to go by and I'm now only running two main EtW and four main Burning Wish. As for the land count 14 feels correct. 10 Mountains and some sort of combination of City of Traitors and Ancient Tomb. More budget friendly builds can run Crystal Vein or even Sandstone Needle. Crystal Vein is fine but with City and Tomb you can get a turn one Ruby and turn two you can tap them again. Crystal Vein you lose the land if you do this. It's still good though.

@Mr. Safety: I'm also liking the idea of Overmaster. At the very least they cycle plus they cycle again with Past in Flames which is huge. You can protect your PiF and then again protect your Wish. I'm going to give it a test. Btw, I see you are only running 2 AoI. Are you missing them or does that count feel correct?

I'm not missing one, I ran out of room. If Chrome Mox doesn't work the way I want it to, I will drop it for a 3rd AoI. If Chrome Mox works out well, I'll likely drop a Hazoret's for a 3rd Act on Impulse. I'm just doing some testing before I decide where to cut for the 3rd copy.

[vieko]

EDIT: You called Overmaster Overlord...were you referencing Lamb of God? If so, you made my day! \m/

LOL did I? Didn't mean to but I've been listening to a ton of Black Dahlia Murder + Lamb of God lately (among others) so who knows the tricks my mind plays on me ;)

[BR3N7]

Tested endless games by now and I can say I was 100% wrong about Act on Impulse. Someone in a backhanded comment after barely winning a set live yesterday said isn't not running Blue kinda dumb because you lose Brainstorm and Ponder to avoid being in top deck mode and just make that a bad storm deck. Oddly his comment is correct. Act on Impulse bridges that gap as well as HUF and Ill finally stop being stubborn and just run what is correct to play. I started noting cards performance as I played and Reforge was easily the worst card and should be cut from all builds. I also had one of the overall highest value on Cabal Therapy and Thoughtseize. They have won endless games at this point. I was also wrong about Defense Grid vs Pyroblast - Blast is better in a heavy SNT kind of meta but in the end Grid eats a counter or allowed me to just win. Also I went on like a 30+ games stretch and not once did I bring in Scab-Clan and even VS storm the hand disruption was just as good and turn 1 for was able to be cast almost for certain and really the card has been overall terrible and been cut or a least removed to test different things.


4x Rite of Flame
4x Seething Song
2x Desperate Ritual
4x Lotus Petal
4x Ruby Medallion
2x Helm of Awakening
4x Manamorphose
4x Act on Impulse
4x Gitaxian Probe
2x Cabal Therapy
3x Past in Flames
2x Hazoret's Undying Fury
4x Burning Wish
2x Empty the Warrens
5x Mountain
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Badlands

1x Past in Flames
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Grapeshot
1x Cave-In
1x Meltdown or By Force
1x Hazoret's Undying Fury
2x Thoughtseize
2x Defense Grid
2x Rending Volley
2 Open testing slots which were the Scab-Clan slots.

[Icapica]

Vieko, I like your new list and saw that you swept your last tourney. I'm testing your exact list right now. There are so many dirty tricks with LED and from my testing and from experience playing Belcher and Burning Reanimator I can't see why they wouldn't be a staple in the deck. LED + Act on Impulse, LED + Burning Wish and LED + Past in Flames etc.. Plus I found that getting the BB for Tendrils was so much easier. It's just too good to not include. It's interesting though that the deck goes off no problem without them as well.

So far I'm not totally sold on the Guttersnipes though. Although, I might just be bad at playing your build. I can't seem to get Guttersnipe to go lethal. Ideally I want to get him in play before I go off but usually by the time I get him there I've had to cast all of my rituals and have no fuel left to get him to deal damage.
I've been also testing Vieko's build now and I agree on both points. LED is just stupidly good. It's also great with Act on Impulse since the cards don't go in your hand. Also I have issues getting Guttersnipe in play early enough for it to matter. With just two Cities it's hard to play a fast Guttersnipe without using some rituals to cast it and then I'll have less spells to cast afterwards.

Lastly I think I really need to learn to mulligan better.

[mistercakes]

Tested endless games by now and I can say I was 100% wrong about Act on Impulse. Someone in a backhanded comment after barely winning a set live yesterday said isn't not running Blue kinda dumb because you lose Brainstorm and Ponder to avoid being in top deck mode and just make that a bad storm deck. Oddly his comment is correct. Act on Impulse bridges that gap as well as HUF and Ill finally stop being stubborn and just run what is correct to play. I started noting cards performance as I played and Reforge was easily the worst card and should be cut from all builds. I also had one of the overall highest value on Cabal Therapy and Thoughtseize. They have won endless games at this point. I was also wrong about Defense Grid vs Pyroblast - Blast is better in a heavy SNT kind of meta but in the end Grid eats a counter or allowed me to just win. Also I went on like a 30+ games stretch and not once did I bring in Scab-Clan and even VS storm the hand disruption was just as good and turn 1 for was able to be cast almost for certain and really the card has been overall terrible and been cut or a least removed to test different things.


4x Rite of Flame
4x Seething Song
2x Desperate Ritual
4x Lotus Petal
4x Ruby Medallion
2x Helm of Awakening
4x Manamorphose
4x Act on Impulse
4x Gitaxian Probe
2x Cabal Therapy
3x Past in Flames
2x Hazoret's Undying Fury
4x Burning Wish
2x Empty the Warrens
5x Mountain
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Badlands

1x Past in Flames
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Grapeshot
1x Cave-In
1x Meltdown or By Force
1x Hazoret's Undying Fury
2x Thoughtseize
2x Defense Grid
2x Rending Volley
2 Open testing slots which were the Scab-Clan slots.

glad you're happy w/ your build. get some results :P

also one thing worth noting.

"Ill finally stop being stubborn and just run what is correct to play. I started noting cards performance as I played and Reforge was easily the worst card and should be cut from all builds."

i'm not saying you're correct....but i wouldn't make too many blanket statements like that. how have your delver matchups been? running that many non-basics vs a deck w/ wasteland+ counters seems quite risky. it also makes your dnt matchup much worse, although you can fit a massacre in there.

also because you're on empty and therapy, i'd prob just cut the 2 haz and up 1 and 1 respectively.

[Itsallgood]

Pretty sure this deck would be amazing with Pillarfield Ox in it.

[Mr. Safety]

LOL did I? Didn't mean to but I've been listening to a ton of Black Dahlia Murder + Lamb of God lately (among others) so who knows the tricks my mind plays on me ;)

Nice! I've been on a Gojira/Decapitated stint for a couple weeks.

How many Guttersnipes have you been running?

EDIT: Looks like a friend was trolling another friend...apologies.

[vieko]

I've been also testing Vieko's build now and I agree on both points. LED is just stupidly good. It's also great with Act on Impulse since the cards don't go in your hand. Also I have issues getting Guttersnipe in play early enough for it to matter. With just two Cities it's hard to play a fast Guttersnipe without using some rituals to cast it and then I'll have less spells to cast afterwards.

Lastly I think I really need to learn to mulligan better.

I feel Guttersnipe shines the brightest when your opponent has survived our early onslaught and stabilized. It comes out of nowhere and will kill them... sometimes off of an Act on Impulse, sometimes just topped with a yard full of cards. I've had T1-T2 victories with it also... remember: he is not our main kill, it is another thing for them to worry about and an alternative should PLAN A goes down the gutter... my 2 cents!

[vieko]

Pretty sure this deck would be amazing with Pillarfield Ox in it.

Checking... hoping you are not trolling me ;)

[vieko]

How many Guttersnipes have you been running?

3-4... mainly 3 and a Gamble

[vieko]

checking... Hoping you are not trolling me ;)

trolled

[BR3N7]

glad you're happy w/ your build. get some results :P

also one thing worth noting.

"Ill finally stop being stubborn and just run what is correct to play. I started noting cards performance as I played and Reforge was easily the worst card and should be cut from all builds."

i'm not saying you're correct....but i wouldn't make too many blanket statements like that. how have your delver matchups been? running that many non-basics vs a deck w/ wasteland+ counters seems quite risky. it also makes your dnt matchup much worse, although you can fit a massacre in there.

also because you're on empty and therapy, i'd prob just cut the 2 haz and up 1 and 1 respectively.

I had 3 empty but the Haz allows the deck to have bigger bombs and power plays. It is better than Reforge. I toy with the idea of more discard in the main but I would not want more than 3 Cabal and yes you can just make like 8 tokens and Mind Twist your opponent with Cabal which is also good as has won me many games.

Not a blanket statement. I don't like Act on Impulse and I really don't know why honestly like I just don't because it just feels/looks janky AF to me but it does what the deck needs and lacks and feels like Ancestral Recall at times. HUF just cost a lot but thats why I went back to 2 for big play ability. They are correct to play but mainly AoI and HUF is a preference thing.

I run only 2 non-basic more than most and gain more resilience and I would most of the time prefer they hit the Badlands and not the Ancient Tomb with a WL. I also have been stifled on my fetch and boy it felt great to not have to discard that and it won me the game since it was game 1 and they didn't know what I was on.

I really have just bridged the gap of Ruby Storm and TES. Try it a few games and see what I am saying.

The discard spells/Grids make the delver MU not feel as lost and push it closer to even than being a terrible MU and the odds are better I win because of a Thoughtseize than lose because of a Wasteland on my Badlands. DNT already is hard for most storm decks if they get to untap on turn 2 but I run Rending Volley for this reason. I played Ant/TES for a long time and I always consider DnT the ultimate grind MU or the fast 10 token MU. You need to know how many tokens beat Batterskull.

The problem with Massacre is the deck has only 6 virtual Swamps and no reason to ruin the base any further for a card that while clearly better than Cave-In isn't worth it and I love Massacre. I would at that point add Dark Petition and Ad Nausuem and so on and would just play TES again.


I have a odd question are any of you playing this because its cheap or because its fun and can win and just happens to be cheap?

[mistercakes]

i designed the deck and card availability isn't a problem for me. i can build almost every deck in legacy. i don't have vintage power, but i do have lots of fbb blue duals. i just like trying new ideas. the fact that this is cheap is just coincidence.

vieko also has the most experience with this deck, i really am at a loss for games here as i am quite busy with job + baby. he's also been on this red storm train since more or less its inception. a lot of the things mentioned even to this day we've already tried and canned them.

it's good to see some revisited.

i'd like to ask where are you guys testing your versions?

[vieko]

I had 3 empty but the Haz allows the deck to have bigger bombs and power plays. It is better than Reforge. I toy with the idea of more discard in the main but I would not want more than 3 Cabal and yes you can just make like 8 tokens and Mind Twist your opponent with Cabal which is also good as has won me many games.

Not a blanket statement. I don't like Act on Impulse and I really don't know why honestly like I just don't because it just feels/looks janky AF to me but it does what the deck needs and lacks and feels like Ancestral Recall at times. HUF just cost a lot but thats why I went back to 2 for big play ability. They are correct to play but mainly AoI and HUF is a preference thing.

I run only 2 non-basic more than most and gain more resilience and I would most of the time prefer they hit the Badlands and not the Ancient Tomb with a WL. I also have been stifled on my fetch and boy it felt great to not have to discard that and it won me the game since it was game 1 and they didn't know what I was on.

I really have just bridged the gap of Ruby Storm and TES. Try it a few games and see what I am saying.

The discard spells/Grids make the delver MU not feel as lost and push it closer to even than being a terrible MU and the odds are better I win because of a Thoughtseize than lose because of a Wasteland on my Badlands. DNT already is hard for most storm decks if they get to untap on turn 2 but I run Rending Volley for this reason. I played Ant/TES for a long time and I always consider DnT the ultimate grind MU or the fast 10 token MU. You need to know how many tokens beat Batterskull.

The problem with Massacre is the deck has only 6 virtual Swamps and no reason to ruin the base any further for a card that while clearly better than Cave-In isn't worth it and I love Massacre. I would at that point add Dark Petition and Ad Nausuem and so on and would just play TES again.


I have a odd question are any of you playing this because its cheap or because its fun and can win and just happens to be cheap?

Thanks for the input! Some reactions to your comments:


AOI is probably one of the reasons my list (LED) performs as well as it does: not much to look at but when used properly, it will keep your engine going, get you the kill piece(s) or even a land if you are in a tight spot
HAZ is too random a card and carries a huge penalty when it whiffs. It is not a good choice for this deck in my opinion. Rob and I wanted it to be (we tried very hard for a while)... not even worth a 1-of spot MB or SB
We tried the discard route once upon a time and found it to be lackluster – as you mentioned: you open yourself to Stifle and Wasteland... for what? a chance to slow down your opponent a few turns or maybe steal a piece of their puzzle? I prefer to have redundancy and kill them faster :)
If you are after improving your Delver matchup: Defense Grid is solid against them and as long as you don't get suckered into their tempo game, you should be just fine... If you REALLY wanna tilt against them: Blood Moon is evil.
D&T is a difficult matchup if they establish their field tax before you get your reduction in play – I'm testing Shattering Spree and Anger of the Gods in the Abrade / Rending Volley spots against them. So far so good!

[Kobra_D]

I've been toying around with this deck a bit for the past ~week and I've found a couple things. BUG is the hardest match up, DRS and force of will is difficult to get around. It's not the worst but those are the two pieces that bottleneck this deck.

Post board dedicated grave hate hurts, rest in piece/leyline, fortunately people are often on the surgical/faerie plan. Maybe I rely on a past in flames loop to much but it's still something I thing needs to be shored up moving forward.

For D&T, Sulfur Elemental. Along with some wish-able board wipes like pyroclasm, or cave-in, elemental puts in so much work. The match up is still hard, but gets a lot better.

Act on Impulse is amazing, helm of awakening is not. The ruby effect is great, I just don't want it to be symmetric *Kanye Shrug*.

As for Hazoret's Undying Fury, whiffing with it hurts, but it is toooooo much fun to pass on. I'm going to stick with it for now, might be wrong but I'm holding out hope.

Good luck everyone.

[AteValve]

I saw Insult / Injury posted as a possible card by mistercakes, but has anyone tried it? I haven't been able to try it because I'm actually trying to build the local Legacy community, but it seems really cool if you can't produce :b::b: for Tendrils or get your storm count high enough for a normal Grapeshot. It also seems good for taking out Eidolons or Canonists.

[mistercakes]

Vieko tried it, I haven't. He said good but not good enough.

[Mr. Safety]

Guttersnipe has opened quite the door to seeing creatures as possible options, rather than going all-in spell-based like other storm decks. For DnT I was wondering if something like Grim Lavamancer would be good. Yes he gets hit by removal and eats our graveyard, but imagine the work he could do against Delver/Thalia/Canonist. Sulfur Elemental has been mentioned, which is classic tech. I tried Inferno Titan, but that wasn't feasible because it needed rituals to cast it in enough time to matter, rituals that really couldn't be cast because of Thalia/Canonist.

Any other thoughts on this? Guttersnipe is a great card for simply another game-winning threat (makes me think maindeck Grapeshot is a good move.) Are there other creatures to consider? We probably don't have room, but its worth asking the question (and it reminds me of Burning Vengeance, which is great tech for Past in Flames. Probably not good enough though.)

[mistercakes]

grim lavamancer would be good in an environment with a lot of DRS and dnt. i'm not sure it helps out regular game in any way, but if the hate is too strong you could consider this an alternate strategy. i wouldn't recommend it b/c it feels like such low impact. worst case is you've lost a few tickets or a weekly playing a card that doesn't work well.

i really want to try abbot of keral keep. it's really only decent with a medallion out, but it does provide some additional win conditions. it's probably bad, but just want to cross everything off the list.

[Mr. Safety]

It's a mini-Act on Impulse with a prowess body attached. Great value, but weaker in the sense of generating enough of a specific effect to help the deck win. Cool card, and I think it should be tested, but generally we want to avoid playing fair in the attack phase unless we are attacking with bunches of gobbos.

Maybe I'm crazy and my casual side is coming out...but what about a Dragonstorm sideboard? I don't know if Bogardan Hellkite is the correct card, but 4 copies of Thundermaw Hellkite seems pretty sexy. They could reasonably be cast off of rocks/rituals if drawn and can swing big after Dstorm gets all 4 copies.

So essentially, shooting from the hip, it would be 5-7 cards in the sideboard: 1 copy of Dragonstorm and 4-6 copies of dragons (maybe 4x BogHell and 2x ThunderKite.) How unexpected would it be to do Grapeshot g1, and then DRAGONS game 2?

[ronco]

If we are considering creatures, I think it was mentioned earlier in the thread but I had monastery swiftspear in my guttersnipe deck as kind of an extra punch through. 1/2 for R that comes with prowess and haste. The dragon idea seems pretty cool but, without testing, I'd say its probably best as a casual idea haha. A+ for creativity though!

And to the person who asked above, I'm in this deck because its fun and cheap. I don't have the legacy staples built back up yet so this seemed like a fun way to get a competitive deck without breaking the bank. Obviously I'm not on the LED plan :). And I'm not playing it anywhere other than against my other decks. My legacy night at the local LGS is on the same night as class. Ah well.

[pettdan]

Young Pyromancer seems pretty perfect as an option to board into. Very low investment, good synergy with the Empty plan [edit: and with Cabal Therapy, if you're using it], good next to Guttersnipe. Sorry if this was already suggested. Only problem is it's answered by the same cards that answer the goblin tokens. Another option, if you're splashing black, could be Bitterblossom. It can both serve as defense and as offense, although a bit slow on the offense it still needs to be answered.

[Laser Brains]

Maybe I'm crazy and my casual side is coming out...but what about a Dragonstorm sideboard? I don't know if Bogardan Hellkite is the correct card, but 4 copies of Thundermaw Hellkite seems pretty sexy. They could reasonably be cast off of rocks/rituals if drawn and can swing big after Dstorm gets all 4 copies.

So essentially, shooting from the hip, it would be 5-7 cards in the sideboard: 1 copy of Dragonstorm and 4-6 copies of dragons (maybe 4x BogHell and 2x ThunderKite.) How unexpected would it be to do Grapeshot g1, and then DRAGONS game 2?

I also thought of this, it's likely not feasible but awesome and hilarious for casual games! Also, Thundermaw could be played for free off of a HUF. Too funny! I don't like any of the creature plans in a competitive build though, not even Guttersnipe. I just couldn't get it to work.

@pettdan: Not that I'm a fan of this tech but as far as Bitterblossom goes wouldn't Goblin Rabblemaster just be better? He has to be answered and you don't have to splash black.

@Everyone: Although the deck can be ran without them, Lion's Eye Diamond should just be a no brainer in competitive builds. It does so much with at least 12 cards in the deck: Burning Wish, Act on Impulse and Past in Flames. Not to mention Hazoret's Undying Fury and Reforge the Soul. IMO, competitive builds should cut Desperate Ritual, Simian Spirit Guide and/or Helm of Awakening for it. It's just better.

[pettdan]

@pettdan: Not that I'm a fan of this tech but as far as Bitterblossom goes wouldn't Goblin Rabblemaster just be better? He has to be answered and you don't have to splash black.

I'm not too impressed by the Bitterblossom suggestion myself, but I reasoned like this for the small amount of decks already splashing black for discard. My first idea was that a lot of opponents won't be able to deal with an enchantment post sideboard (although thanks to the Medallions people may keep Decays in). If you're playing Guttersnipe, and playing it game 1, opponents will keep Lightning Bolt in, and they may anyway as it represents the chance of a quick win - so Rabblemaster could be a less reliable alternative win condition. Bitterblossom seems slow but it does deal an exponentially increasing amount of damage every turn, so I was thinking a t1 Bitterblossom would do the job while your opponent prepares to fight a storm matchup. The tokens also potentially buy a lot of time by chump blocking Gurmag/Goyf or two tokens trading with a Delver.

Pyromancer seems better, it's a proactive Empty the Warrens that ignores Thalia, Thorn of Amethyst, Flusterstorm and most of the common storm hate, it should work well with Grapeshot too for dealing a medium sized chunk of damage, and if the opponent answers the Pyromancer + Tokens that means your goblins from Empty could win instead. And Pyromancer could be a reason to run a few Badlands, Pyromancer + Probe + Therapy is very strong. I'm not sure it fits into the deck, and I'm not sure a few 1/1 tokens are enough of a threat, and I'm not sure if you can make room for Pyromancer and Therapy after boarding (this seems unlikely)... But it seems to me like 4 (+ potentially Therapies) cards in the sideboard that fit very well with the maindeck's strategy and help you mitigate the common storm hate you can expect opponents to board into.

[Laser Brains]

I'm not a big fan of Bitterblossom but good point that it is harder to deal with an enchantment. I do like the idea of Pyromancer and I did actually test him for a bit. He seemed decent but still vulnerable. Also splashing black (which I haven't tested) for Therapy seems not great. I still like Mr. Safety's suggestion of not messing with the mana base and running Overmaster. At the very least it cycles and can be cast twice with PiF protecting both your PiF and your Wish. Also, messing with the mana base makes you more susceptible to Wasteland / Delver tempo strategies. I have toyed with the idea of splashing white for Abeyance. It cycles and it must be countered. Another one is Orim's Chant which you can also use as a Time Walk giving you another turn to set up your combo or to attack with your EtW goblin army. Haven't tested these though and I still like the mono red mana base. Plus you get more value from Blood Moon.

[Mr. Safety]

Board wipes are really rare ATM, at least it seems that way to me. The ones I see are Toxic Deluge, Golgari Charm, and Zealous Persecution (and the last 2 hardly ever.) However, many people are playing Engineered Explosives, which is essentially a board wipe against our gobbos. I'm not really worried about board wipes. G2 should be about avoiding grave hate, which usually leads into a board wipe with Warrens, but I think we can do a reasonable Tendrils win if we need to outside of gobbos. I haven't run into board wipes yet...but I haven't tested against the decks that might have them. I've spend almost all of my testing time on Grixis Delver, Death and Taxes, Sneak/Show, BUG Leovold, Storm, and Stoneblade. I've done a little testing against Deadguy Ale/Junk but it's not a difficult matchup needing time to figure out. Bitterblossom isn't anywhere near what we want. We need cards that reward our high spell count and create overwhelming advantage.

In my opinion, the only non-storm win condition we should be considering is Blood Moon. Blood Moon and HUF are, for me, the reasons to be running this deck. If I want black I'll play Br reanimator, a very good deck in its own right. If I want LED, I'll play TES/ANT. Those are both incredibly powerful decks that can make the best use of it (again, my opinion.) I want to do something different with Ruby Medallion.

[mistercakes]

I'd argue that if you want the best use of led, it's probably dredge.

Given that vieko has at this point a near infinite amount of 4-1s with this deck, I'm not really sure how much better ant/TES is with regard of its use of led.

The goal here is to optimize the last few cards of viekos build.

For the budget build, there might be a best hazoret's build, but it will always have the chance to lose to randomness a lot more. I would however, be interested in finding out what this build is. Somebody mentioned that 50 life 50 damage card, it might be worth testing.

[vieko]

In my opinion, the only non-storm win condition we should be considering is Blood Moon. Blood Moon and HUF are, for me, the reasons to be running this deck. If I want black I'll play Br reanimator, a very good deck in its own right. If I want LED, I'll play TES/ANT. Those are both incredibly powerful decks that can make the best use of it (again, my opinion.) I want to do something different with Ruby Medallion.

As long as you are O.K. with losing a high percentage of your games to the randomness HUF brings to the table, please feel free to continue pushing it. Blood Moon is not a win condition, it is a blanket statement :) As a mainboard card (which I tried for a few leagues) it doesn't always win you games and does little to feed the engine this list requires to generate wins. As a SB response, Defense Grid is leaner and better in the current meta: greedy manabases have adapted to Blood Moon already.

The LED list does not suffer from randomness – AOI's potential whiffs can be accounted for / minimized when timed properly. The LED list is one turn slower than TES and one turn faster than ANT with higher resilience than both and no discard. Both approaches make use of Ruby Medallion for busted lines of play... so you ARE doing something different with Ruby Medallion ;)

EDITED:
You'll never see the benefits and drawbacks of either list until you run both against a decent spread of live opponents, a decent amount of times. At this point, I think I've got mistercakes 90% convinced that the LED list is superior.

[Rampart]

As long as you are O.K. with losing a high percentage of your games to the randomness HUF brings to the table, please feel free to continue pushing it. Blood Moon is not a win condition, it is a blanket statement :) As a mainboard card (which I tried for a few leagues) it doesn't always win you games and does little to feed the engine this list requires to generate wins. As a SB response, Defense Grid is leaner and better in the current meta: greedy manabases have adapted to Blood Moon already.

The LED list does not suffer from randomness – AOI's potential whiffs can be accounted for / minimized when timed properly. The LED list is one turn slower than TES and one turn faster than ANT with higher resilience than both and no discard. Both approaches make use of Ruby Medallion for busted lines of play... so you ARE doing something different with Ruby Medallion ;)

EDITED:
You'll never see the benefits and drawbacks of either list until you run both against a decent spread of live opponents, a decent amount of times. At this point, I think I've got mistercakes 90% convinced that the LED list is superior.

I agree the LED version is superior, it is more consistent and more explosive at what it does and if you wanted to take this deck to a big tournament the LED list is what I would take. It has its drawbacks though, it is harder to play and can't go as big as the Reforge Configurations.

[Mr. Safety]

As long as you are O.K. with losing a high percentage of your games to the randomness HUF brings to the table, please feel free to continue pushing it. Blood Moon is not a win condition, it is a blanket statement :) As a mainboard card (which I tried for a few leagues) it doesn't always win you games and does little to feed the engine this list requires to generate wins. As a SB response, Defense Grid is leaner and better in the current meta: greedy manabases have adapted to Blood Moon already.

The LED list does not suffer from randomness – AOI's potential whiffs can be accounted for / minimized when timed properly. The LED list is one turn slower than TES and one turn faster than ANT with higher resilience than both and no discard. Both approaches make use of Ruby Medallion for busted lines of play... so you ARE doing something different with Ruby Medallion ;)

EDITED:
You'll never see the benefits and drawbacks of either list until you run both against a decent spread of live opponents, a decent amount of times. At this point, I think I've got mistercakes 90% convinced that the LED list is superior.

Fair statement. :smile:

I only play Blood Moon out of the board, and I'm down to 1x HUF. It may be incorrect, even in the budget version that I am using, to play any copies. And your record speaks for itself when validating LED. I wasn't making a broad statement for the format; I was making a personal statement based on my own decisions. If LED is what it takes to be competitive, I'm probably not going to stick with the deck. If I can do a version without it and still be competitive, I will. I don't foresee myself going to major events, so I need to be careful how I present my posts because I know many people use this forum as a way to prepare for serious competition.

[Mr. Safety]

I agree the LED version is superior, it is more consistent and more explosive at what it does and if you wanted to take this deck to a big tournament the LED list is what I would take. It has its drawbacks though, it is harder to play and can't go as big as the Reforge Configurations.

And yet its your LED-less version that caught the attention of MTGgoldfish...SaffronOlive will be very disappointed if you raise the price tag by $500, lol...

[mistercakes]

It's only bc it was posted earlier. :)

I'd take anything he says with a grain of salt. I am happy any version got the attention.

I am curious though safety, who are you playing against for your testing?

[Rampart]

And yet its your LED-less version that caught the attention of MTGgoldfish...SaffronOlive will be very disappointed if you raise the price tag by $500, lol...

Let's be fair. It's this threads deck and I am just one of the many people who have enjoyed playing it. I got lucky that's all. I think the led version is better. That being said it doesn't make the other configurations less competitive or worse. It's just my personal opinion. I still have the reforge version built because I find it more enjoyable to play

[mistercakes]

I also find the non LED version more fun, but as a thread we should also find the objectively best deck. I asked vieko to just add up all of his matches so that he can provide some numbers.

I think it will be a very surprising number of games he's played.

got to play some casual room tonight:

2 tomb
2 city of traitors
10 mountain
4 petal
4 rite of flame
4 probe
4 wish
2 desperate
4 manamorphose
2 helm
4 ruby
4 act on impulse
4 song
3 spirit guide
3 past in flames
2 reforge the soul
1 aetherflux reservoir
1 alhammarret's archive

same old same old sb

still haven't drawn the reservoir. would probably run another archive but only have 1 on modo.

this card is super fun:

alhammarret's archive

prob will like to test it with all the draw 4 discard 3 at random. there's a portal 3k one and another one called goblin lore. then there's burning inquiry for R and faithless looting.

that's a lot of bad cards together that become incredible with this artifact. dunno how viable it is, but i'm excited to try. with a rock and this artifact, R -> draw 8 discard 3 at random.

[Laser Brains]

Aetherflux Reservoir and Alhammarret's Archive look interesting. I'd like to test those as well, especially Aetherflux Reservoir. It does appear however that you would likely run into the same problem you have with Guttersnipe. You'll really want them in play before you go off however with their cc it appears you will need to ramp into them thus blowing your storm engine wad before you can get any value. I can say though that with Archive it appears you could recover fairly quick. I'd like to hear your testing results.

One thing I've noticed about this deck is the lack of one drops. Could Chalice have a place here? Ruby Red Stompy Storm? Swap the Rite of Flames with Desperate Rituals and there are no one drops. You'd get more value from a turn one Ancient Tomb aside from Medallion, plus your ANT / TES match ups would be considerably better.

EDIT: As far as LED vs. Non-LED versions go, both work great. I wouldn't give up on this deck if you don't have them.

[mistercakes]

Read my earlier posts in the thread, for a while I wasn't playing rof at all. Then I played 3 maindeck and 1 sb. Then I realized it's busted so the deck should run it.

There's a few variants without rof that I tested and I think it's just worse. Chalice is like blood moon. It can steal you some games, but in the end it's not worth the resources and decks that are weak to it generally prepare. I think you're still better off with grid.

Chalice also cuts off probe, which despite my wanting to not play it, always creeps back in and finds a way.

Please read older posts! All the stuff is there.

[Karhumies]

One thing I've noticed about this deck is the lack of one drops. Could Chalice have a place here? Ruby Red Stompy Storm? Swap the Rite of Flames with Desperate Rituals and there are no one drops. You'd get more value from a turn one Ancient Tomb aside from Medallion, plus your ANT / TES match ups would be considerably better.

EDIT: As far as LED vs. Non-LED versions go, both work great. I wouldn't give up on this deck if you don't have them.

Based on my very limited goldfish experience, R.Flame is far superior to D.Ritual in this deck. So much superior that dropping the Chalices makes sense. R.Flame powers up a t1 Ruby without a Sol Land and snowballs the mana out of hand once we get rolling with the extra copies in gy clause.

Non LED builds are likely to be slower than LED versions, so I would focus on extra resilience instead of speed in those lists. Black spot discard, Overmaster, MD Defense Grid, SB red blasts, SB creature wipes (Kozilek's Return, Pyroclasm?), something towards that effect.

Personally, I feel that the main card from monored stompy our deck might be interested in is not MD Chalice or SB Chandra. It's SB Ensnaring Bridge, which has random synergy with LED + PiF lines of play. Always stops Marit Lage, Emrakul and typically also Griselbrand from running us over, but with an early LED, it can buy us a bunch of turns in some mus.

[BR3N7]

Been trying Chandra TOD again in the board and I really am digging it but I have a soft spot for her and the reason Dragon Stompy is my main deck so I will always look for reasons to play her. In all seriousness she really helps in matchups like Delver with all the effects allowing to play a more control based game especially with the discard package. I like it vs some of the bad MU's like Grixis and Bug variants.

Also I found the LED version to be worse and I was looking for a reason to use LED. I find the Rocks to be superior.

I keep meaning to retry Gamble as well but keep forgetting.

[vieko]

I asked vieko to just add up all of his matches so that he can provide some numbers.

I promise I'll get to this... gonna start a spreadsheet or something.

[Karhumies]

Also I found the LED version to be worse and I was looking for a reason to use LED. I find the Rocks to be superior.

I keep meaning to retry Gamble as well but keep forgetting.

I have been goldfishing with 2x Infernal Tutor splashed from black instead of using MD spot discard for the splash. If all of our spells are red, we don't really need the LED color fixing, and if we have a Ruby or 2, some of our rituals are effectively LEDs without the drawback of discarding our hand, with the additional benefit of being castable twice with the help of PiF. So in my opinion, if you want to justify running LED, you should have a synergistic off-color gas/tutoring device, e.g. Slithermuse, Infernal Tutor and/or Ill-Gotten Gains to make it worth your while.

[Mr. Safety]

It's only bc it was posted earlier. :)

I'd take anything he says with a grain of salt. I am happy any version got the attention.

I am curious though safety, who are you playing against for your testing?

I use magic workstation. I have a gauntlet of decks loaded and I play both sides. It can sometimes feel awkward, but I try to be objective. I have played maybe 20 real games against real opponents. I just don't have the time/opportunities to play a lot. Test games on workstation = well over 100.

Not giving up on the deck just yet, probably won't really. I can recognize however that LED could be a necessary card for an optimized list. I just don't want to shell out $500 for a set lol...

Edit: I'm gaining a ton of experience on how to play legacy' s best decks at the same time I'm testing, which can only help out regardless of deck choice. I can always fall back on Junk/Deadguy ale, my go-to fair deck.

[mistercakes]

It's good that you're trying to get the testing in there. I've tried even doing that myself. The truth is that unless if you exclusivley play a deck for a while, you'll never play it optimally and because of that the testing is skewed. Even playing a delver deck can be tricky because of the amount of decisions that go into it. Opening hand keep vs mulligan, sb decisions, turn 1/2 plays.

Unfortunately it's just a bit too hard to be objective especially when you're using this data to make blanket statements about what is good/not good. I would say at best this is comparable to playing in the casual room - tournament practice. This is also where i have around an 80% win rate with any deck. I also don't take these testing numbers very seriously, even though some players are good and many are playing net decks card for card.

Just playing in leagues you'll see your win % go down drastically at least for some time. Unfortunately if you don't play in this environment you'll just have to believe me. This is why I trust viekos LED data more than anyone else on here. He's won and lost enough matches with the list to understand what is the right play at the right time. I tried the led version quite a bit, and I can tell you right now that I still don't play it correctly. It's only something that can be learned through playing a huge amount until of matches vs very good opponents.

(forgive any weird words,phone spellchecker)

[Karhumies]

It's good that you're trying to get the testing in there. I've tried even doing that myself. The truth is that unless if you exclusivley play a deck for a while, you'll never play it optimally and because of that the testing is skewed. Even playing a delver deck can be tricky because of the amount of decisions that go into it. Opening hand keep vs mulligan, sb decisions, turn 1/2 plays.

Note: Playtesting with a "rogue deck" that is not widely recognized as a Tier 1/1.5/2/whatever deck poses additional challenges. Even experienced pilots of other decks might have no idea what we are running, allowing us to "steal wins" due to suboptimal decision making on our opponent's part. It is difficult to say to what extent the wins are due to our decklist's optimal consistency (as opposed to running a slightly different 75), what is due to opponent being confused about what we are running (we might seem like a big red, monored stompy or sneaky show variant initially), what is due to our opponent piloting their 75 (sub)optimally, and what is due to our mulligan decisions and sideboarding decisions and general piloting skills with the exact 75 we are running, and what is due to whiffing/hitting with AoI, HUF, Probe topdecks, etc.

[mistercakes]

Correct but most mtgo league grinders are very capable pilots vs Storm decks, and in some cases even against us.

Paper is much more random as you are a lot less likely to play against the same person more than once.

[Icapica]

Note: Playtesting with a "rogue deck" that is not widely recognized as a Tier 1/1.5/2/whatever deck poses additional challenges. Even experienced pilots of other decks might have no idea what we are running, allowing us to "steal wins" due to suboptimal decision making on our opponent's part. It is difficult to say to what extent the wins are due to our decklist's optimal consistency (as opposed to running a slightly different 75), what is due to opponent being confused about what we are running (we might seem like a big red, monored stompy or sneaky show variant initially), what is due to our opponent piloting their 75 (sub)optimally, and what is due to our mulligan decisions and sideboarding decisions and general piloting skills with the exact 75 we are running, and what is due to whiffing/hitting with AoI, HUF, Probe topdecks, etc.

This is a good point. I recently won a game I absolutely should have lost, since my opponent (DnT) thought I was playing mono red Sneak Attack. He dropped a Prelate at 5 which didn't do anything to me and allowed me to storm the next turn. Also I've won some games with Tendrils where my opponent clearly thought that Goblins were my only wincon and sculpted their hand appropriately with cantrips.

[mistercakes]

the point of this was to try to give some validity to results from mtgo vs playing on paper, or playing vs yourself.

i only am making a point of this because while anyone may test any way they want, it's hard to believe many blanket statements that people make on this thread without proper testing. it will always be a consequence of a public forum, but it should be acknowledged.

[Memories of the Time]

I keep on testing LED list with no creatures, 1 ETW and 3 Gamble maindeck. I'm loving the deck and i've lost only 2 matches (one of them against BR reanimator with a double t1 combo) on 20 made in these days, winning against delver and S&T too.

My last addition is Commune With Lava, and i think it's a great card. Sadly i don't think we can play more than 2-3, because it's very expensive in the first stage of storming, But the possibility of being cast EOT, bailing a counterspell or giving us many resources is incredible.

[mistercakes]

yea we've tested commune a bunch. it is a really great card, but sometimes it's awkward wasting a ritual on it.

[Mr. Safety]

It's good that you're trying to get the testing in there. I've tried even doing that myself. The truth is that unless if you exclusivley play a deck for a while, you'll never play it optimally and because of that the testing is skewed. Even playing a delver deck can be tricky because of the amount of decisions that go into it. Opening hand keep vs mulligan, sb decisions, turn 1/2 plays.

Unfortunately it's just a bit too hard to be objective especially when you're using this data to make blanket statements about what is good/not good. I would say at best this is comparable to playing in the casual room - tournament practice. This is also where i have around an 80% win rate with any deck. I also don't take these testing numbers very seriously, even though some players are good and many are playing net decks card for card.

Just playing in leagues you'll see your win % go down drastically at least for some time. Unfortunately if you don't play in this environment you'll just have to believe me. This is why I trust viekos LED data more than anyone else on here. He's won and lost enough matches with the list to understand what is the right play at the right time. I tried the led version quite a bit, and I can tell you right now that I still don't play it correctly. It's only something that can be learned through playing a huge amount until of matches vs very good opponents.

(forgive any weird words,phone spellchecker)

Totally agree. My 'testing' should be taken with a grain of salt. The most I can say about this method is that I can get a ton of practice games in, simply to see how the deck functions. Making correct decisions can only come through time and real experience, but some cards only take 20 practice games to reveal that they don't help the deck work.

Regarding sticking to one deck exclusively, that's definitely what I'm doing with this one. I haven't played a different deck in over a month. I have alternative decks built, but I am spending zero time on them (in Legacy.) I can't help but fool around in Modern, its another format I play, but 80% or more of my mtg time is spent exclusively on this deck, playing test games vs. myself(gauntlet) or random opponents on Magic Workstation (which is equated to casual room on MODO.)


the point of this was to try to give some validity to results from mtgo vs playing on paper, or playing vs yourself.

i only am making a point of this because while anyone may test any way they want, it's hard to believe many blanket statements that people make on this thread without proper testing. it will always be a consequence of a public forum, but it should be acknowledged.

Definitely needs to be acknowledged. As I posted earlier, I need to be careful on 'blanket' statements I make because I don't expect to play this in serious competitive events, and others will. Good words.

[vieko]

I keep on testing LED list with no creatures, 1 ETW and 3 Gamble maindeck. I'm loving the deck and i've lost only 2 matches (one of them against BR reanimator with a double t1 combo) on 20 made in these days, winning against delver and S&T too.

My last addition is Commune With Lava, and i think it's a great card. Sadly i don't think we can play more than 2-3, because it's very expensive in the first stage of storming, But the possibility of being cast EOT, bailing a counterspell or giving us many resources is incredible.

Yup! Commune is a ton of fun and your assessment is bang on. Unless you skew the list towards more instant Rituals + more Sol lands, the magic number is 1-2... 3 Gamble seems high for how I play the card but, curious: what card do you typically Gamble for?

[Memories of the Time]

Yup! Commune is a ton of fun and your assessment is bang on. Unless you skew the list towards more instant Rituals + more Sol lands, the magic number is 1-2... 3 Gamble seems high for how I play the card but, curious: what card do you typically Gamble for?

My list, to be clear:

// 12 Artifact
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ruby Medallion

// 9 Instant
4 Manamorphose
4 Seething Song
1 Commune with Lava

// 15 Land
1 City of Traitors
11 Mountain
3 Ancient Tomb

// 24 Sorcery
4 Act on Impulse
4 Burning Wish
3 Gamble
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Past in Flames
4 Rite of Flame
2 Reforge the Soul
1 Empty the Warrens


// 15 Sideboard
// 5 Artifact
SB: 2 Defense Grid
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge

// 2 Creature
SB: 2 Scab-Clan Berserker

// 2 Enchantment
SB: 2 Blood Moon

// 1 Instant
SB: 1 Kozilek's Return

// 5 Sorcery
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Cave-In
SB: 1 Fiery Confluence

Sideboard is in fieri, and i really need a business spell like Reforge there. Never wished for Empty anyway, always (always) Tendrils.
I'm thinking about cutting MD Empty, never used or wanted it.

@Gamble: I'm loving it, as said before, and its main uses are:
- T1 grabbing Rock (very important)
- Finding Pif
- Finding Side cards (also very, very important)
- Sometimes finding what you need (used to grab Rite or Led).

[Michael Keller]

I've been testing a list, if you'd like to see. It's definitely not budget, and has been performing smoothly:

// [Legacy] Ruby Storm

// 60 Maindeck
// 12 Artifact
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

// 4 Creature
4 Tinder Wall

// 8 Instant
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose

// 14 Land
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
3 Mountain
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga

// 22 Sorcery
4 Rite of Flame
2 Past in Flames
4 Burning Wish
4 Ponder
2 Hazoret's Undying Fury
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Empty the Warrens


// 15 Sideboard
// 3 Creature
SB: 3 Xantid Swarm

// 2 Enchantment
SB: 2 Blood Moon

// 10 Sorcery
SB: 1 Apocalypse
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Pulverize
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Reforge the Soul
SB: 1 Telemin Performance
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Hull Breach

Quick takeaways:

Tinder Wall is a very good card. It's especially precious in situations where a Thalia hits play on turn two, which it gets around without the additional investment. Additionally, it helps power out a turn-one Ruby Medallion. The ability to do that offsets the (predominant) reason to play bad cards in the deck like Ancient Tomb and Crystal Vein, and to a lesser extent City of Traitors. Not only does it block extremely well, it does just what you want on the first turn without losing a land drop (Vein) or sustain damage with a colorless resource (Tomb) that doesn't produce red mana. Life is an underrated resource here, especially in variations that run Probe and Tomb. I just think Tinder Wall is the best option for what it does.

Main-deck Empty the Warrens is honestly very good. Being on the play and navigating to a situation where you can dump 8-12 Goblins on turn one just wins free games. If you flip it off Fury, it's even more disgusting. Leaning too heavily on Burning Wish is not something you want to do all the time, and while it takes up design space it also provides a strategic opportunity to win games.

I run Volcanic Islands to support Ponder and Probe, with Performance out of the board. This also can lead to misleading situations for an opponent who may see Volcanic into Ponder and assume something much different than Ruby Storm, which again leads to free wins and the potential for changed decision trees against skilled opponents. Regardless, Ponder is just amazing by itself and bolsters consistency to the deck. When powering out a Past in Flames, sometimes Ponder is all you need in the graveyard. I think it's vastly superior than Gamble in this deck, regardless of their respective utilities. Telemin Performance is also powerful win condition against Lands, Reanimator or Sneak and Show - hence its inclusion.

The Taigas are there to support Tinder Wall, Xantid Swarm and Hull Breach out of the board. I play three because there may be situations where Pulverize is used, and having access to another could be crucial.

I am a big fan of Apocalypse or other reset-buttons out of the board. In the event you desperately need to restart the game, this is the best option available at five mana. The deck operates with fast mana inherently, so being able to recoup isn't always going to be too hard to do. It's risky, no doubt, but if you're facing down lethal and you can access it, you'll be glad you have it. I would recommend only playing this in LED builds, because spiking fast mana like LED after playing it with a discarded Past in Flames in the graveyard could be key.

I like Pulverize, as well. This deck plays plenty of Mountains to support it's alternate cost - something TES wanted to do but couldn't because of the need for extra Mountains. Getting that added value against decks that pack Chalice, Trinisphere, etc. can be critical, and the card can just win games outright.

Reforge the Soul is in the sideboard to support a draw-seven effect if needed. One thing I really don't like is giving my opponent seven fresh cards, regardless of what they're playing. You'll note decks like TES and ANT moved away from cards like Diminishing Returns because they were able to abuse Ad Nauseam. It's always nice to draw cards, but this is a card that, regardless if Ruby Medallion is in play can be a risky play. I like it in concert with Empty the Warrens main, because you can invest the mana to draw cards and eventually bait into a follow-up two or three-mana Empty for X Goblins. Other than that, I know why it's in the deck but I have my reservations.

Blood Moon is a one-card combo.

This deck is very capable of firing off big Grapeshots with multiple Pasts, and sometimes it can be used to clear the board against decks like Elves, Death and Taxes, etc.

I teeter on adding Desperate Ritual into the deck. Dark Ritual is an incredibly powerful card, and Ruby Medallion transforms it into a red Dark Ritual flat. I've seen folks eschew it, and I'm beginning to wonder if it's actually just better in this particular deck because you really want to abuse Ruby Medallion. Some lists aren't running a lot of XR spells to abuse it, which in turn kind of weakens the argument for running Ruby Medallion anyhow. To really get power out of it, I'm wondering if playing some number of Desperate Ritual with Simian Spirit Guide is optimal, or Tinder Wall with Guide. Spirit Guide is just so good in a deck like this to perform so many tasks. I'm on the fence, but Tinder Wall is just a crazy-good card for one mana. It gives you the turn-one Ruby and lets you keep your land.

[Mr. Safety]

I've been testing a list, if you'd like to see. It's definitely not budget, and has been performing smoothly:

// [Legacy] Ruby Storm

// 60 Maindeck
// 12 Artifact
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

// 4 Creature
4 Tinder Wall

// 8 Instant
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose

// 14 Land
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
3 Mountain
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga

// 22 Sorcery
4 Rite of Flame
2 Past in Flames
4 Burning Wish
4 Ponder
2 Hazoret's Undying Fury
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Empty the Warrens


// 15 Sideboard
// 3 Creature
SB: 3 Xantid Swarm

// 2 Enchantment
SB: 2 Blood Moon

// 10 Sorcery
SB: 1 Apocalypse
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Pulverize
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Reforge the Soul
SB: 1 Telemin Performance
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Hull Breach

Quick takeaways:

Tinder Wall is a very good card. It's especially precious in situations where a Thalia hits play on turn two, which it gets around without the additional investment. Additionally, it helps power out a turn-one Ruby Medallion. The ability to do that offsets the (predominant) reason to play bad cards in the deck like Ancient Tomb and Crystal Vein, and to a lesser extent City of Traitors. Not only does it block extremely well, it does just what you want on the first turn without losing a land drop (Vein) or sustain damage with a colorless resource (Tomb) that doesn't produce red mana. Life is an underrated resource here, especially in variations that run Probe and Tomb. I just think Tinder Wall is the best option for what it does.

Main-deck Empty the Warrens is honestly very good. Being on the play and navigating to a situation where you can dump 8-12 Goblins on turn one just wins free games. If you flip it off Fury, it's even more disgusting. Leaning too heavily on Burning Wish is not something you want to do all the time, and while it takes up design space it also provides a strategic opportunity to win games.

I run Volcanic Islands to support Ponder and Probe, with Performance out of the board. This also can lead to misleading situations for an opponent who may see Volcanic into Ponder and assume something much different than Ruby Storm, which again leads to free wins and the potential for changed decision trees against skilled opponents. Regardless, Ponder is just amazing by itself and bolsters consistency to the deck. When powering out a Past in Flames, sometimes Ponder is all you need in the graveyard. I think it's vastly superior than Gamble in this deck, regardless of their respective utilities. Telemin Performance is also powerful win condition against Lands, Reanimator or Sneak and Show - hence its inclusion.

The Taigas are there to support Tinder Wall, Xantid Swarm and Hull Breach out of the board. I play three because there may be situations where Pulverize is used, and having access to another could be crucial.

I am a big fan of Apocalypse or other reset-buttons out of the board. In the event you desperately need to restart the game, this is the best option available at five mana. The deck operates with fast mana inherently, so being able to recoup isn't always going to be too hard to do. It's risky, no doubt, but if you're facing down lethal and you can access it, you'll be glad you have it. I would recommend only playing this in LED builds, because spiking fast mana like LED after playing it with a discarded Past in Flames in the graveyard could be key.

I like Pulverize, as well. This deck plays plenty of Mountains to support it's alternate cost - something TES wanted to do but couldn't because of the need for extra Mountains. Getting that added value against decks that pack Chalice, Trinisphere, etc. can be critical, and the card can just win games outright.

Reforge the Soul is in the sideboard to support a draw-seven effect if needed. One thing I really don't like is giving my opponent seven fresh cards, regardless of what they're playing. You'll note decks like TES and ANT moved away from cards like Diminishing Returns because they were able to abuse Ad Nauseam. It's always nice to draw cards, but this is a card that, regardless if Ruby Medallion is in play can be a risky play. I like it in concert with Empty the Warrens main, because you can invest the mana to draw cards and eventually bait into a follow-up two or three-mana Empty for X Goblins. Other than that, I know why it's in the deck but I have my reservations.

Blood Moon is a one-card combo.

This deck is very capable of firing off big Grapeshots with multiple Pasts, and sometimes it can be used to clear the board against decks like Elves, Death and Taxes, etc.

I teeter on adding Desperate Ritual into the deck. Dark Ritual is an incredibly powerful card, and Ruby Medallion transforms it into a red Dark Ritual flat. I've seen folks eschew it, and I'm beginning to wonder if it's actually just better in this particular deck because you really want to abuse Ruby Medallion. Some lists aren't running a lot of XR spells to abuse it, which in turn kind of weakens the argument for running Ruby Medallion anyhow. To really get power out of it, I'm wondering if playing some number of Desperate Ritual with Simian Spirit Guide is optimal, or Tinder Wall with Guide. Spirit Guide is just so good in a deck like this to perform so many tasks. I'm on the fence, but Tinder Wall is just a crazy-good card for one mana. It gives you the turn-one Ruby and lets you keep your land.

Sexy list. Nice feedback. Opening up Xantid Swarm (which I just picked up 2 copies of) seems very cool.

[mistercakes]

Glad to see youre on the deck. Have always enjoyed your feedback regarding dredge.

Sad to see so many duals! I have fbb at least but would be nice without. I always suspected Ponder is a bit too good not to play, I'd still be hesitant to run the duals in a wasteland heavy metagame.

It looks like Ponder is taking the spot of act on impulse. I assume you've tested it and dropped it, but it really does feel like the reason one would play this deck over ant/TES. Could you provide what caused you to drop it?

[Karhumies]

I've been testing a list, if you'd like to see. It's definitely not budget, and has been performing smoothly:


Sexy list. I need to goldfish what you've built. Removing Tomb life loss to add more relevant t1 plays sounds very promising in theory to me. I've never been 100% sold on Gamble or Overmaster, myself. Triple Volcanic sounds like a lot to me, but then again we are not running Brainstorm, so I guess using extra fetches is just additional life loss since we are not super interested in being able to choose between RG, RU and basic Mountain lands with a fetch anyhow. If we know the opponent plays a deck without Wasteland, then I guess fetching a Volcanic, playing Ponder and pretending to be Sneaky Show or a Delver variant can give us an advantage, especially if the opponent starts to play around Daze/Spell Pierce instead of doing more relevant stuff.

Damn, I only have a highlander copy of Taiga. This might end up becoming expensive.

EDIT: Quick update. Since we are pretending to be something we are not with our manabase, shouldn't the Wooded Foothills fetches be Bloodstained Mire instead? At least to me, Wooded Foothills makes me identify a deck with Charbelcher combo, which is too close to what we are actually doing (Empty the Warrens tokens). Bloodstained Mire makes me think about Grixis Delver or Br Reanimator instead, initially. Seems like a better option?

EDIT2: What is an example scenario when B.Wish -> Apocalypse line of play makes sense? I get the synergy with Past in Flames, and I get the showboating victory of Apocalypsing with a gazillion mana in the pool, when you can PiF a Grapeshot or something anyhow. But is there actually a relevant play scenario when you actually want to exile the board at the cost of discarding your hand?

EDIT3: Since I got to discussing the topic of niche SB cards and pretending to be something other than we are, have any of you considered SB Burst of Speed or a similar effect Sorcery? This allows us to win without passing the turn with EtW tokens (so no topdeck/filtering for Engineered Explosives, Reanimate Elesh Norn, Cunning Wish for Echoing Truth or some other random answers) without showing the opponent that we also have the Grapeshot/Tendrils in our deck in Game 1, so they might think that we absolutely have to go to combat in order to win. I apologize if this topic has been brought up in the discussion earlier, as I have not read through all of the pages.

[Michael Keller]

Since the list doesn't play any singleton Swamps or Forests, you could play Bloodstained Mire as it would get you any land in the deck. If you're looking for some sort of masked advantage based on the land you play, I suppose you could but the chances of you keeping a fetch up without a play - at least with what I see - won't last very long.

Also, in a situation that is completely dire where you're facing down lethal and you don't have the means to win outright, Apocalypse would make sense. With a Ruby out the investment is 1RRRR (including Burning Wish). Assuming you can Seething Song or Ritual into that play, you could take that line. Theoretically, you could cast Reforge, but there's no guarantees that would be a win and the situation may require using Apocalypse where a Reforge was already leveraged or countered. It's all contingent on the situation, but there would have to be situations that would exist where you would need a massive reset. For a small investment and one slot, it's worth having. The sideboard already has a plethora of win conditions and other utility, and much like Belcher can get away with flex spots in the board based on how straight-forward it plays. A card like Apocalypse can be quirky, but if you're in a losing situation anyhow, there aren't many other cards besides Reforge (or Diminishing Returns) that could bail you out.

Consider the age-old argument folks use: "If you're in that situation, you're either losing or winning anyhow." It's a card that twists that logic, because if you're in a losing situation you can blow up the board and play to the strengths of your acceleration off the top of your deck. No other deck in Legacy that I can think of eliminates everything in play, or has access to do so. Reforge is also no good against Spirit of the Labyrinth or Leovold, as well - two very real cards in this format.

In a situation against Death and Taxes where Thalia is holding serve and there are equipment, Vials, Batterskull, etc. doing work - Pyroclasm would be inherently bad there (especially with Mom), and Anarchy - while powerful - wouldn't necessarily save you from an active Vial and taxing lands. It's a little more narrow I suppose, where Apocalypse has more reach. Also consider Apocalypse is stronger in a deck with Ponder.

(And I hate getting off-topic, but as a cute little aside Apocalypse has intrinsic synergy with Madness cards, as well. You would satisfy the first part of the resolution of the spell by exiling all permanents, and then you would discard your hand. Reckless Wurm it up with LED, too.)

[mistercakes]

i had tried apocalypse in one of the first builds, but was a bit rough on the deck. for 1 more mana i think it's probably better to just run jokulhaups or wildfire. i know vieko tested kozilek's return and was pretty happy with it. sulfur elemental is pretty great too.

[Karhumies]

Thanks for the Apocalypse commentary!

Jokulhaups is a similar function card that has been sometimes included in monored stompy sideboards, especially in Japan. Monored stompy needs to board it in for specific MUs, so it's essentially a meta call. In Ruby Storm, I think I am beginning to see the advantage of Wishing for Apocalypse to avoid losing flexibly whenever the situation calls for it without specific MUs or meta in mind. For a heavy DNT meta, I can see Sulfur Elemental and Kozilek's Return doing more work, though, but Apocalypse is a much more versatile and "wide" card which also takes up less SB space since it's wishable. I guess the main advantage of Apocalypse, then, is to avoid having to spend 3-4 SB slots only for the DNT matchup in a metagame where you expect some DNT decks but not that many overall.

[Michael Keller]

i had tried apocalypse in one of the first builds, but was a bit rough on the deck. for 1 more mana i think it's probably better to just run jokulhaups or wildfire. i know vieko tested kozilek's return and was pretty happy with it. sulfur elemental is pretty great too.

My line of thought centers around the five-mana investment with Ruby. If you can fire off Seething Song, you can make both happen. I'm also thinking of game one, where a card like Sulfur Elemental doesn't exist. Kozilek's Return is good, but doesn't handle Marit Lage or a board state with Explorations, Mox Diamonds, etc. Apocalypse terminates any dire situation, and under no circumstances is any opponent going to play around it because it's non-existent in Legacy. Which isn't bad.

Apocalypse also hits Planeswalkers, which none of those cards (includes Jokulhaups) can do. The thing is, if you're in a situation where you need to cast Apocalypse, you probably won't have more than a card in hand anyhow. And in a deck with 14-15 lands, you're probably getting value over your opponent.

[Karhumies]

Just read through pages 15-24. Found a remark which had not really been tackled thus far in the thread. Apologies for the semi-necro.


Also the cards are revealed all at once. You choose the order they go on the stack. Storm count is determined based on that order. Cards resolve in normal manner, unless if there's a split second card. Then you need a level 5 judge.

You don't need a level 5 judge for this. It's fairly self-explanatory, actually.

Reminder Text: Split second (As long as this spell is on the stack, players can't cast spells or activate abilities that aren't mana abilities.)
https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Split_second

Neither player gets to do much during their priorities until the split second spell has left the stack. Mana abilities can be activated, but that's pretty much it. Having the split second spell resolve last on the stack does not change how the mechanic fundamentally works.

If you want to make the scenario slightly more complex, imagine hitting a Reforge the Soul vs Dredge together with a Split Second spell lower in the stack. But even that should be fairly easy to resolve correctly since the Split Second wording prevents both players from doing pretty much anything complex in the first place.

[mistercakes]

On modo this is how it works, but I'm unsure if it's coded properly.

If you flip into a split second card, as soon as you click it all of the other spells will go on the stack after and immediately resolve.

I had only tried it once when the card came out and flipped a split second card and a Ruby Medallion. I clicked the split second card and when it resolved the ruby was in play.

[Laser Brains]

Btw guys, Rampart's Mono Red Storm deck has been prominently featured in MTG Legacy Top 8's "Rogue Corner" of the month HERE (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=16642&f=LE). I still mostly lean towards this list, just running LED's in place of Simian Spirit Guides and -1 land +1 Probe.