Ruby Storm

[compacta_d]

I highly suggest you work the math out. The number of lands is 14/15 total.


http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/print.asp?ID=3096

Referenced here
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/177780-fetchlands-dont-thin-your-deck

The debate has clearly gone on for a very long time.

TLDR : If there's a bonus effect besides deck thinning, play fetches. If not, don't.




The argument there is for normal decks that do NOT draw 15-30 cards in a game.

There's a big difference between "pay 1 life to have a .1% chance to draw a bolt instead" and "Pay 1 life to blank a land in your 15 cards to prevent a storm fizzle".

it's a non ad-nauseum storm deck. If you lose to 1 life, it probably wasn't the life that you lost to, it was the control or fizzle.

Math isn't the end all be all for decklists and land counts. Experience and repetition determine much more. You can't use blanket math that gets applied to burn decks for rogue combo decks that see many more cards either. It's completely different and only goes so far. Better as a starting point.

[mistercakes]

If that's not enough to convince you, not a worry. I'm just happy people are playing the deck at all.

[compacta_d]

If that's not enough to convince you, not a worry. I'm just happy people are playing the deck at all.

Haha. Well, positive response. I think the deck is a ton of fun.

I have lots of ideas for experimenting, but focusing on mono U painter til after Dec 3.

[Mr. Safety]

toxic deluge, pernicious deed, golgari charm, march casualties, izzet staticaster, pyroclasm, whip flare.

yes game one with some.

Wow, I haven't seen Pyroclasm in ages...TES? Marsh Casualties I see occasionally, there are Czech Pile/Grixis Delver decks that use that in my meta. Pernicious Deed is almost never seen. Staticaster is getting play in Legacy now? Must be because of Elves. I have literally *never* seen a whipflare in any competitive game I've played. Affinity? You have a very diverse metagame, or are you going mostly on MODO experience? (I don't play MODO.)

[compacta_d]

Wow, I haven't seen Pyroclasm in ages...TES? Marsh Casualties I see occasionally, there are Czech Pile/Grixis Delver decks that use that in my meta. Pernicious Deed is almost never seen. Staticaster is getting play in Legacy now? Must be because of Elves. I have literally *never* seen a whipflare in any competitive game I've played. Affinity? You have a very diverse metagame, or are you going mostly on MODO experience? (I don't play MODO.)

grixis delver, czech pile, affinity, tezzerator, nic fit

paper. i don't play online.

[Knighthawk]

Have there been any issues with not having enough instants to utilise Shred of Insanity to its fullest? Or is it generally okay just getting back a sorcery and discarding something else?

For the people that were testing it, was there any luck with Dangerous Wager? Or was it too dangerous?

This deck is too much fun. Almost.

[compacta_d]

Have there been any issues with not having enough instants to utilise Shred of Insanity to its fullest? Or is it generally okay just getting back a sorcery and discarding something else?

For the people that were testing it, was there any luck with Dangerous Wager? Or was it too dangerous?

This deck is too much fun. Almost.

haven't tested Wager yet.

Seething Song, Manamorphose are both instants. Shreds almost never whiffed for me. Also a 1 of.

[Manroe]

Anyone tried Mizzix's Mastery yet?


Its a wish target
CMC and overload can be reduced by Medallions
Its overload can be used when flipped off of Undying Fury



How many would you play MD and SB if you guys played this? Is PiF Exclusively better?

[Mr. Safety]

Anyone tried Mizzix's Mastery yet?


Its a wish target
CMC and overload can be reduced by Medallions
Its overload can be used when flipped off of Undying Fury



How many would you play MD and SB if you guys played this? Is PiF Exclusively better?

I think, for the most part, PiF is a much better engine piece. In many of our lists that is the role that Gamble plays, extra copies of PIF.

[PsyMar]

Hi everyone. I'm completely new to legacy and I've started with this deck. I'm playing on MTGO. My first match, I challenged someone who put as comments "no control", and they responded to my seething song by complaining that "mass mana production is control" and proceeding to time themselves out without so much as letting it resolve. (wut?!?) Second match, I just lost to a deck that had some really good sideboard hate -- but I did win game 2, and my opponent directed me to this forum for tips.

The one card I'm running that I don't think anyone has mentioned is Firebrand Archer -- it's a cheaper guttersnipe in terms of mana, does half as much damage but triggers off artifacts as well (and I'm running 4 petals, 4 medallions, and 2 helms of awakening). Does anyone else think it's a good idea?

Also, I keep seeing LED mentioned in this thread but can't figure out what card that is. Anyone wiling to tell me? I've read through the last several pages but maybe I missed it.

[mistercakes]

I think the 2 damage is more effective just because you can get a few spells in there and win randomly sometimes with past in flames by just chaining your rituals again. Also, LED = Lion's Eye Diamond.

[mistercakes]

last list:

11 mountain
2 ancient tomb
1 city of traitors
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Burning Wish
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Act on Impulse
4 Manamorphose
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Helm of Awakening
2 Shreds of Sanity
2 Guttersnipe
1 Gamble
3 Past in Flames


going to test the following. (i actually had a similar list back on page 4/5/6 (can't recall) in the thread)

to be tested list:

3 mountain
2 volcanic island
2 bloodstained mire
2 scalding tarn
2 wooded foothills
2 ancient tomb
1 city of traitors
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Burning Wish
2 Ruby Medallion
4 Act on Impulse
4 Manamorphose
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Helm of Awakening
2 Gifts Ungiven
1 Desperate Ritual
1 Shreds of Sanity
1 Gamble
3 Past in Flames


the main difference here is that when i tested gifts ungiven originally i was still running hazoret's and simian spirit guide over probe and a full set of act on impulse. it's only a 2-off in this version, but it functions more like the additional tutor that this deck needs. the mana base is still a little rough, and will still keep it at 14 lands with the help of the playset of probes.

this will also allow for a more transformational man-plan with 4 guttersnipe as opponents are extremely inclined to bring in graveyard hate against this list.

the other main addition here since 5 months ago was the addition of a shreds of sanity, which i really like, and it adds a lot of benefits with gifts ungiven, giving you a perfect tutor setup if you have enough mana.

also need to note the 4 helm over 4 ruby here, as multiple helms are helpful for gifts (still undecided if this is a mistake...it's obviously much worse vs a deck like eldrazi or death and taxes.

-Rob

[DrDiabetes]

Do you mind me asking what's in your SB?

[mistercakes]

Do you mind me asking what's in your SB?

i've been playing the same sb for a while, although with 2 volcanic islands in the main you could play some stock blue cards that decks like ANT run.

[Ingo]

I recently picked up this deck, but have been playing dark rituals instead of seething song (and running 7 fetches, 2 badlands and 2 mountains), because I had all cards except the songs. Now that Ive acquired the songs and tried the classic build, I actually miss the rituals. Songs are great with a medallion, but ritual was better when a medallion was lacking. So songs felt a bit like winmore. Has anyone tried dark rituals in a blacksplash?

[mistercakes]

If you're going to play with dark ritual and rite of flame then prob just run TES.

Why is song a win more but ritual is not when they provide the same net mana? (+2)

[Mr. Safety]

If you're going to play with dark ritual and rite of flame then prob just run TES.

Why is song a win more but ritual is not when they provide the same net mana? (+2)

I agree with you here. Seething Song has one big upside that Dark Ritual does not: it gets you to a critical 5 mana, which allows for Past in Flames + R floating even without a Medallion/Helm. Once Medallion/Helm are on the table it becomes a +3 ritual, which beats Dark Ritual all day long. It's deceptive, but Medallions actually net much more than 2 mana in a game. If you track how much mana it 'gives' over a turn, it has a better return than Lion's Eye Diamond, which is +3 for zero.

I wouldn't say, however, that a black splash necessitates just going for TES. It really depends on how deep you go. If there aren't any LED's in the equation, maybe it's a situation where Dark Ritual is being used as a substitute for Desperate Ritual/SSG/Helm (which typically take up around 4 slots, so it's an even swap.) That opens up opportunities for other tutors (Dark Petition) and discard. I'm not saying this is the right way to go, but it's ONE way to go. I could see Dark Petition into Tendrils (maindeck) being a way to attack from the same angle as traditional storm without going too deep. With that said, I know that TES has much better color-fixing for allowing for red and black rituals, which this deck attempts to make up for with Manamorphose. I know that without LED's I've debated going for a black splash.

[Ingo]

If you're going to play with dark ritual and rite of flame then prob just run TES.

Why is song a win more but ritual is not when they provide the same net mana? (+2)

It was an impression I had when I switched from rituals to songs, as the rituals seemed better pre-medallion (more easy to make stormcount with Past in Flames without a medallion, and another way to cast a T1 medallion). Where Songs were better post-medallion (providing +3).

EDIT: the comparison with TES helped me clear my mind. TES resembles a non-medallion gamestate and Dark Ritual is better here than Seething Song (if they would be aquals in providing the same net mana, Seething Song would at the very least be played instead of Rite of Flame). That's why I called Seething Song a bit winmore, games with a medallion in play are usually looking good already, where the games without one are where we struggle.

As for why not entirely switching to TES, the beauty of this deck lies in the medallions, PIF and Act on Impulse enabling a more grindy game as well. Thats what defines the deck more than a splashcolor or a specific accelerant.
Splashing does make you vulnerable to wasteland. Then again, aren't we already vulnerable to wasteland in Ancient Tomb?

[Mr. Safety]

I don't think games where there isn't a medallion are a struggle. They are harder to achieve that endless stream of storm, but getting to storm 10 and BW > Tendrils is still very achievable. Yes Medallion can fuel some broken turns, but getting 12-14 goblins t1-2 can also win a ton of games.

[ronco]

Splashing does make you vulnerable to wasteland. Then again, aren't we already vulnerable to wasteland in Ancient Tomb?

Not really, or at least not in the same way. Tomb is there (mainly) to speed out a medallion/helm. It's not getting us to a second color or anything, and once the rock is in play it is almost not needed (since the colorless piece of the mana goes away for a lot of spells). Almost. I don't know how others play, but for me I open with a mountain if i'm not dropping a rock, that way I can drop the tomb t2 and then have 3 mana available, rather than let it sit exposed. If someone wants to waste it then, fine, but i already got my 3 mana into a song or whatever i need it for.

So, yes, losing a tomb hurts (moreso if the rock isn't in play yet), but it isn't like we just got crippled by losing the fetch and the dual or whatever.

[Mr. Safety]

Not really, or at least not in the same way. Tomb is there (mainly) to speed out a medallion/helm. It's not getting us to a second color or anything, and once the rock is in play it is almost not needed (since the colorless piece of the mana goes away for a lot of spells). Almost. I don't know how others play, but for me I open with a mountain if i'm not dropping a rock, that way I can drop the tomb t2 and then have 3 mana available, rather than let it sit exposed. If someone wants to waste it then, fine, but i already got my 3 mana into a song or whatever i need it for.

So, yes, losing a tomb hurts (moreso if the rock isn't in play yet), but it isn't like we just got crippled by losing the fetch and the dual or whatever.

Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors/Crystal Vein are all more akin to rituals than they are lands, at least in my opinion. I agree with you here. It forces us to making correct sequencing and mulligan evaluations. Regardless of what else is in our hand, we need an initial red source to do anything, so keeping a Sol land hand without mountains/Petal/SSG is very risky, and even riskier without an actual Mountain. Sequencing Mountain before Sol land in the absence of a Medallion/Helm is one of the dynamics of this deck that can almost be said to be a rule.

[Manroe]

I'm debating on taking this to a 5k in March but I want to evaluate potential matchups. What do you guys who have a bit more experience with this deck believe to be the good/bad/even matchups? Especially against the tier 1 decks?

For reference, I have access to this deck, BUG delver/control, czech pile, U/R delver, Lands, Turbo Depths, Eldrazi Stompy, Burn, reanimator and potentially bomberman.

[ronco]

I'm debating on taking this to a 5k in March but I want to evaluate potential matchups. What do you guys who have a bit more experience with this deck believe to be the good/bad/even matchups? Especially against the tier 1 decks?

For reference, I have access to this deck, BUG delver/control, czech pile, U/R delver, Lands, Turbo Depths, Eldrazi Stompy, Burn, reanimator and potentially bomberman.

Depending on the build Reanimator can be a tough match up due to discard (if they are quick) and if they are playing chancellor or not. If they don't have early discard its pretty much a race in my experience. This is based only on the build that I have/play.

[ronco]

If you are really worried about it I can play vs a dredge deck that I have and let you know my thoughts on the matchup. Not exactly T1 but it may be back on the rise.

[Manroe]

If you are really worried about it I can play vs a dredge deck that I have and let you know my thoughts on the matchup. Not exactly T1 but it may be back on the rise.Yeah, sure! I've had very little legacy time lately since I started taking Cisco Certification classes on legacy night (stupid!). Any input is appreciated. In the limited time I have had, I have noticed that the deck actually seems pretty great against blue decks. I've found that baiting counterspells is generally pretty easy with burning wish, then just flashing it back later gets the job done fine. I really like guttersnipe alongside lightning bolt and I'm not sold on Gitaxian Probe, but that's all I got.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk

[BR3N7]

So lately I have been working so much I just took a break from live Magic and have only been playing online and only playing this deck. Here is where I am at as of right now really just working on the SB as I like the main deck a lot. I liked the black splash still for discard and as of right now 1 massacre but game 1 I just want to be able to do my best Belcher/TES impression and with Act/PIF you have solid ways to grind through countermagic already.

3 Empty the Warrens
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Burning Wish
4 Act on Impulse
4 Manamorphose
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Desperate Ritual
4 Ruby Medallion
1 Helm of Awakening
3 Past in Flames
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Badlands
1 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb

2 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
2 Defense Grid
2 Rending Volley
1 By Force
1 Massacre
1 Hazoret's Undying Fury
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens

[compacta_d]

went 2-2 at local TNM legacy.

I'll post list after. I finally got to sit down and hash out a bunch of goldfishes to settle upon a list.


Mizzix's Mastery is insane and I think we were wrong about it. Looks bad on paper. Plays amazing. Burning wish, crack LED, overload is my favorite play right now. Cast entire graveyard.

RD1 Lost to Tin Fins. Not sure this deck will ever have game against Tin Fins. Turn 0 Emrakul+Collective Brutality put me to 3. He saw my hand with probe and he slammed it. Here I could have gone, fetch land petal ruby, but I went Tomb ruby, thinking I'd draw a mountain. Had petal and faithless in hand. 3 petals faithless lootings drew me into the other 3 fetchlands straight. FINALLY bit me in the ass, but i could have played it differently. AT that point, I could have seething songed up and flashed multiple lootings for a hail mary. Should have because I was dead anyway. Misplays from not playing the deck for a while and changing too many things.

rd2 beat merfolk. Got to overload Mizzix's Mastery 2 games in a row. Feels good. No insane plays.

rd3 v friend on miracles. I actually fizzled a game. Game 2 I went for Past In Flames and should have went for Reforge instead. Misplayed. he was able to stick a canonist. Canonist hurts pretty bad. I'm also a storm noob so I made bad choices.

rd 4 beat Turbo Depths. Hand disruption takes Burning wish. I slam a ruby. He gets a 20/20. I win next turn because it doesn't have haste. He gets game 2 turboey. Game 3 I keep worst hand, but want to play it out. Tomb-petal-petal-petal-led-act on impulse (hold mizzix). Act whiffs. He gets the Lage ready. I natural miracle a reforge the soul and go off from there. No black mana source. Burning wish for tendrils, faithless looting, overload mizzix.


4 Faithless looting
4 probe
4 manamorphose
4 song
4 rite
4 wish
4 act on impulse
4 petal
4 led
3 ruby
2 helm
2 reforge
2 mizzix
1 past in flames
1 grape shot

4 tomb
4 red fetch
5 mountain



SB:

1 past in flames
1 tendrils
1 reforge
1 mizzix
2 def grids
2 scab clans
1 flame slash
1 by force
1 abrade
1 cave in
2 blood moons
1 magus of the moon

I am VERY set on this maindeck list. It's preformed fantastically for me, despite my own mistakes. I am gonna try to squeeze a chrome mox or 2 somewhere in there. Possibly one less land. Double Helms allow defense grids for freebie post sb when you are wheeling your opponent into their Mindbreak traps and flusterstorms. Also just pay for the flusterstorms. It's fun tilting control players when you're like "ok I'll just pay for 11 of the copies".

Ruby's reduce both flashback and overload, so it's good times to faithless looting 4 times in one turn too. Mizzix's Mastery works well with it.

edit- sb needs work though admittedly.

[ronco]

Yeah, sure! I've had very little legacy time lately since I started taking Cisco Certification classes on legacy night (stupid!). Any input is appreciated. In the limited time I have had, I have noticed that the deck actually seems pretty great against blue decks. I've found that baiting counterspells is generally pretty easy with burning wish, then just flashing it back later gets the job done fine. I really like guttersnipe alongside lightning bolt and I'm not sold on Gitaxian Probe, but that's all I got.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk

Its early in my testing, but I'm going to say this deck is a solid turn faster than Normal/LED dredge.

That being said, I just had the most incredible game and i wish it happened in a real game and so someone else could see it lol. I'll try to describe here.
The scene: 2 turns in.
Dredge doing its thing, albeit "slow." Too many Ichorids and not enough dredgers in the yard to go full off or black creatures to exile, but still manages to rip cards from hand and deal some damage. Gets me (storm) down to ~8 life (thanks probes) with lethal coming next turn in the form of 12 zombie tokens plus 2 ichorids coming back. Do or die, so I start wheeling, with my only cantrips being Probe and manamorphone. Start with gas, then PIF, then more gas (and cantrips) and manage to AOI into a ETW for 32 gobbos, but in the process I am down to 2 life with nothing left to flash back other than mono red gas and a hand of 3 tombs + probe (that I can't cast) and 2 ruby in play. I live another turn. Dredge goes, brings back ichorids and after doing math that he can survive the attack next turn, swings with everything that I must block. I block and go down to 18 goblins, with dredge player at 17 life (and will have 4 untapped 2/2 tokens after combat from the bridge). Next turn coming again with more, so i need to finish off this turn. I draw... lotus petal. Great. Here goes nothing.
Hand: 3 tomb, 1 probe. At 2 life. 2 mountains and 2 Rubys in play.

Crack petal, Play probe. Draw AOI.
Play AOI, have 1 R left from a mountain. See HUF, Shreds, AOI.
Cast second AOI. Get Land, Ritual, something else.
Play land, cast ritual (RRR), Play shred (RR) grab a seething song and AOI back.
Play song (RRRRRR), play aoi, draw into a wish and then grab war strike from the board for 18 damage. Holy shit. All that off a lotus petal into probe.

Anyway, just wanted to share that with everyone. The deck is so fun to play and hard to stop once it starts rolling. And sometimes even when it does stop haha.

So, after 7 rounds with dredge, Storm is up 5-2, with total game record 11-8. Everything was 2-1 except one 0-2 and one 2-0 fwiw. Playing first is stronger (in this matchup) so far.

[Manroe]

Its early in my testing, but I'm going to say this deck is a solid turn faster than Normal/LED dredge.

That being said, I just had the most incredible game and i wish it happened in a real game and so someone else could see it lol. I'll try to describe here.
The scene: 2 turns in.
Dredge doing its thing, albeit "slow." Too many Ichorids and not enough dredgers in the yard to go full off or black creatures to exile, but still manages to rip cards from hand and deal some damage. Gets me (storm) down to ~8 life (thanks probes) with lethal coming next turn in the form of 12 zombie tokens plus 2 ichorids coming back. Do or die, so I start wheeling, with my only cantrips being Probe and manamorphone. Start with gas, then PIF, then more gas (and cantrips) and manage to AOI into a ETW for 32 gobbos, but in the process I am down to 2 life with nothing left to flash back other than mono red gas and a hand of 3 tombs + probe (that I can't cast) and 2 ruby in play. I live another turn. Dredge goes, brings back ichorids and after doing math that he can survive the attack next turn, swings with everything that I must block. I block and go down to 18 goblins, with dredge player at 17 life (and will have 4 untapped 2/2 tokens after combat from the bridge). Next turn coming again with more, so i need to finish off this turn. I draw... lotus petal. Great. Here goes nothing.
Hand: 3 tomb, 1 probe. At 2 life. 2 mountains and 2 Rubys in play.

Crack petal, Play probe. Draw AOI.
Play AOI, have 1 R left from a mountain. See HUF, Shreds, AOI.
Cast second AOI. Get Land, Ritual, something else.
Play land, cast ritual (RRR), Play shred (RR) grab a seething song and AOI back.
Play song (RRRRRR), play aoi, draw into a wish and then grab war strike from the board for 18 damage. Holy shit. All that off a lotus petal into probe.

Anyway, just wanted to share that with everyone. The deck is so fun to play and hard to stop once it starts rolling. And sometimes even when it does stop haha.

So, after 7 rounds with dredge, Storm is up 5-2, with total game record 11-8. Everything was 2-1 except one 0-2 and one 2-0 fwiw. Playing first is stronger (in this matchup) so far.That's nuts.

Also I could be nuts but what do you guys think about running more helms? I feel like against blue a helm will be easier to resolve than a ruby.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk

[compacta_d]

While awesome you won via the combo... the bridges should have been exiled when your blockers died, even with you killing the Ichorids.

They can stack triggers how they like.

[Mr. Safety]

Its early in my testing, but I'm going to say this deck is a solid turn faster than Normal/LED dredge.

That being said, I just had the most incredible game and i wish it happened in a real game and so someone else could see it lol. I'll try to describe here.
The scene: 2 turns in.
Dredge doing its thing, albeit "slow." Too many Ichorids and not enough dredgers in the yard to go full off or black creatures to exile, but still manages to rip cards from hand and deal some damage. Gets me (storm) down to ~8 life (thanks probes) with lethal coming next turn in the form of 12 zombie tokens plus 2 ichorids coming back. Do or die, so I start wheeling, with my only cantrips being Probe and manamorphone. Start with gas, then PIF, then more gas (and cantrips) and manage to AOI into a ETW for 32 gobbos, but in the process I am down to 2 life with nothing left to flash back other than mono red gas and a hand of 3 tombs + probe (that I can't cast) and 2 ruby in play. I live another turn. Dredge goes, brings back ichorids and after doing math that he can survive the attack next turn, swings with everything that I must block. I block and go down to 18 goblins, with dredge player at 17 life (and will have 4 untapped 2/2 tokens after combat from the bridge). Next turn coming again with more, so i need to finish off this turn. I draw... lotus petal. Great. Here goes nothing.
Hand: 3 tomb, 1 probe. At 2 life. 2 mountains and 2 Rubys in play.

Crack petal, Play probe. Draw AOI.
Play AOI, have 1 R left from a mountain. See HUF, Shreds, AOI.
Cast second AOI. Get Land, Ritual, something else.
Play land, cast ritual (RRR), Play shred (RR) grab a seething song and AOI back.
Play song (RRRRRR), play aoi, draw into a wish and then grab war strike from the board for 18 damage. Holy shit. All that off a lotus petal into probe.

Anyway, just wanted to share that with everyone. The deck is so fun to play and hard to stop once it starts rolling. And sometimes even when it does stop haha.

So, after 7 rounds with dredge, Storm is up 5-2, with total game record 11-8. Everything was 2-1 except one 0-2 and one 2-0 fwiw. Playing first is stronger (in this matchup) so far.

I have had similar experiences where the game isn't completely over until you are literally at 0. The grind factor of Ruby Storm is definitely a selling point, something we've mentioned a bunch of times in relation to whether discard/disruption is necessary. Now let me plug Overmaster again for the exact reason of your sequence above: it would have done essentially the same thing in your scenario above. While others have been skeptical of Gitaxian Probe, I would play 7-8 copies if I could (hence Overmaster.) Overmaster is likely the best red one mana cantrip, that sometimes has an additional value. I play 11 cards that just straight up cycle (4 probe, 4 Manamorphose, 3 Overmaster) paired with 4 AoI and BW > Reforge the Soul. That's 19 ways to see more cards, which I think really helps offset the lack of filtering cantrips like Brainstorm, Ponder, etc.

I also noticed that LED was *not* part of that equation. I'm not saying LED isn't the nuts (it is) I'm just saying that even if someone doesn't have LED's they can still sleave up this deck and have a reasonable chance of winning. No LED's isn't a good excuse to leave the deck alone, it just gives you motivation to get them even more. I've been testing the deck again lately and I've actually gotten a bunch more t2 wins, and learned a ton about how to sequence. This deck really rewards repetitions and practice, in any version.

[ronco]

I have had similar experiences where the game isn't completely over until you are literally at 0. The grind factor of Ruby Storm is definitely a selling point, something we've mentioned a bunch of times in relation to whether discard/disruption is necessary. Now let me plug Overmaster again for the exact reason of your sequence above: it would have done essentially the same thing in your scenario above. While others have been skeptical of Gitaxian Probe, I would play 7-8 copies if I could (hence Overmaster.) Overmaster is likely the best red one mana cantrip, that sometimes has an additional value. I play 11 cards that just straight up cycle (4 probe, 4 Manamorphose, 3 Overmaster) paired with 4 AoI and BW > Reforge the Soul. That's 19 ways to see more cards, which I think really helps offset the lack of filtering cantrips like Brainstorm, Ponder, etc.

I also noticed that LED was *not* part of that equation. I'm not saying LED isn't the nuts (it is) I'm just saying that even if someone doesn't have LED's they can still sleave up this deck and have a reasonable chance of winning. No LED's isn't a good excuse to leave the deck alone, it just gives you motivation to get them even more. I've been testing the deck again lately and I've actually gotten a bunch more t2 wins, and learned a ton about how to sequence. This deck really rewards repetitions and practice, in any version.

I don't run the LED build because I didn't get them until this week, and they went into a different deck haha. I'm not opposed to proxying them and just swapping out when needed, its just a time factor for me right now.

That said, I do like overmaster. I don't have any in there currently, but may put a couple back in. I liked it when I first used it then kind of made a bunch of changes at once so it was tough to feel the effect without it. Probably what I will replace my HUFs with. You and others in here definitely play this deck way more than I do.

[Mr. Safety]

Funny you should mention HUF...I was thinking of going back up to 2 copies the other day. I play 3x maindeck Warrens, but that might be 1 too many. I want another big payoff card, and Reforge has proven to be too risky (still one in the board.) HUF seems to be the right card, or maybe just jam the 4th Overmaster.

I have a Legacy tournament coming up in February, and this is one of the decks I'm considering.

[compacta_d]

Try Mizzix's Mastery. It's super good, tutorable and fun to overload.

[ronco]

I may add mizzix to the SB. I have a HUF there that I never wish for really, so that would probably be an easy replacement. I do have a Reforge in the SB as well, but that sometimes gets used, depending on the matchup.

Mr. Safety, I'll post my list tonight. Its pretty close to the standard build but just in case there are any differences.

[Mr. Safety]

Try Mizzix's Mastery. It's super good, tutorable and fun to overload.

I have zero room in my sideboard for another wish target, so tutorable isn't a selling point. I'm much more on the turbo-warrens side of the argument, mostly because I don't feel the need for more PiF effects, I want something that *doesn't* require the graveyard.

@ronco: Thanks! I will definitely compare notes.

[BR3N7]

HUF should only be used in versions that have both LED at 4 and a higher than 1 count on Empty in the main. Since I run the max Empty main I love HUF as a primary wish target. Many times I have had to YOLO and it gives you the best chance to hit when you can essentially cascade into a Empty+1-2 freebies or PIF+1-2.

I would run Reforge in a non-LED build and 0-1 Empty and I would never run Mizzix.

I don't think in the last 100+ games has HUF or PiF not been good enough as a wish target unless I am getting TOA/ETW/GS to just win or try and win the following turn.

[Knighthawk]

How's Guttersnipe working out for everyone? I'm excited now that his new art is available from iconic masters, I feel his flavor text represents this deck entirely too well.

Flavor aside, are there any different play patterns that come up when he's in the deck? Do you force him down first and combo or just try to work him into a ritual cantrip chain?

What are more common lines of play that show up and decisions to be made? I rarely get to play against anyone these days so I'd like to see if I'm just trying to go off too early or not soon enough.

Do we often wind up on turns where we just have to pass or is that a bad keep?
Is it ever a good play to use act on impulse before a Ruby helm comes down?
What do you do differently in a game lacking a helm/Ruby?
And lastly, when is it a good plan to hold your cantrip and spells vs just playing them and hoping something shows up?

[ronco]

Do we often wind up on turns where we just have to pass or is that a bad keep?
Is it ever a good play to use act on impulse before a Ruby helm comes down?
What do you do differently in a game lacking a helm/Ruby?
And lastly, when is it a good plan to hold your cantrip and spells vs just playing them and hoping something shows up?

My answers to the above:

1) I'll defer to others on this, but in my limited experience it happens sometimes. I won't say its often though. Early its not bad, like sometimes I just have no 1 mana gas, so its mountain, then pass, then mountain and try to go off t2. Or sometimes I'll drop a t2 rock then go for it on 3. Just depends.
2) I do it all the time. I've had this deck go off without ruby or helm to get it going. I'll eventually AOI or HUF into one (or 2 or 3) but it isn't necessary, It just really helps.
3) see above. Generally I don't go for the full combo win (tendrils or ETW + War strike) but you can usually get a good horde of goblins out early, like 12 or something. That is often enough to ride to victory or at least put the opponent on a clock and force them to answer those instead of going about their own game plan. Or, you can always do it on two turns depending on the mana. Get a grapeshot for 10 or so the next turn PiF and recast the gas and hit for 11. I don't run grapeshot main but some do.
4) I don't know if this is the correct move or not, but if you are talking something like a git probe, I generally hold those until its storm turn. I'f i'm just playing tomb then rock and passing the turn, I won't try to probe into a lotus petal or something. I'll take my chances and wait for a full untap.

[ronco]

The list I am currently running.


11 Mountain
4 ancient tomb
2 helm of awakening
4 ruby medallion
4 seething song
4 desperate ritual
4 rite of flame
4 lotus petal
4 manamorphose
4 gitaxian probe
4 burning wish
4 act on impulse
3 past in flames
2 Hazoret's undying fury
2 shreds of sanity
1 empty the warrens


Sideboard:

1 Goblin war strike
1 Hazoret's Undying fury
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
1 Reforge the soul
1 By force
3 guttersnipe
3 defense grid
1 pyroclasm
1 past in flames


Wheel/draw/cantrips:
16 (counting shreds, not counting wishes)

Mana generators:
20, counting lotus petals

[compacta_d]

I do think mizzix is better with led.

May be a stretch without it.

Between reforge, act, wish, past, and mizzix the amount of led pinpoints in the deck are absolutely insane.

Been considering going to desperate rit instead of seething song. Song is more payout with more Ruby's but I find I get stuck sometimes and prefer to reduce that. Plus the arcane actually outdoes song when spliced.

[Manroe]

This may be dumb but with HUF and empty or any storm spell, in what order must you cast things to get the most storm triggers?

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[ronco]

This may be dumb but with HUF and empty or any storm spell, in what order must you cast things to get the most storm triggers?

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They go on the stack in the reverse order you want them to resolve. So with HUF, everything gets cast "at the same time" after HUF resolves. So you stack it with, say:
ETW first, then gas, gas, rock (or whatever). then upon resolution, it goes Rock, Gas, Gas, ETW.

I'm 99.9% sure that is the correct operation.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

This may be dumb but with HUF and empty or any storm spell, in what order must you cast things to get the most storm triggers?

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
It doesn't matter. Huf casts them all so by the time the storm trigger resolves all the spells have been cast and placed on the stack. This also means no matter how you stack it the storm trigger will resolve first and your copies will resolve before anything else.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

They go on the stack in the reverse order you want them to resolve. So with HUF, everything gets cast "at the same time" after HUF resolves. So you stack it with, say:
ETW first, then gas, gas, rock (or whatever). then upon resolution, it goes Rock, Gas, Gas, ETW.

I'm 99.9% sure that is the correct operation.
You are right about everything you said, but it's not an answer to the question ;). As you said huf casts them all at once and you get to stack them. So huf begins resolving, you cast the spells, putting them onto the stack in any order. The storm trigger triggers. Huf finishes resolving and you put the storm trigger on the stack, ontop of everything else.

[ronco]

You are right about everything you said, but it's not an answer to the question ;). As you said huf casts them all at once and you get to stack them. So huf begins resolving, you cast the spells, putting them onto the stack in any order. The storm trigger triggers. Huf finishes resolving and you put the storm trigger on the stack, ontop of everything else.

You are right. I misunderstood the question (and HUF, really, for that matter). In case anyone is curious, form the Oracle:

-If any abilities trigger as you cast any of those cards, they won’t be put on the stack until after you’re done casting them. They’ll resolve before any of those spells.

-If you cast any of those cards, you do so as part of the resolution of Hazoret’s Undying Fury. You can’t wait to cast them later in the turn.

[Mr. Safety]

Update: I tried 2nd HUF in place of 1x Empty, didn't like it. The Empty > BW > War Strike plan is really strong. Quite a few t2 kills as of late, which is really nice. One of them through t1 Thoughtseize, t2 Hymn to tourach (on the draw.)

This is one of 2 decks I'm deciding on for a Legacy event in February, so putting in a bunch of reps with both.

[ahg113]

I've been out of the loop for about a year and change, this deck is totally new to me.

Am I mistaken that this is potentially a better Belcher deck? The red acceleration, wish targets, etc. seem a more stable option, but as derp. Already have Belcher built, putting this together doesn't seem too far different.

Are folks generally pro LED if available. Some decklists don'the include.

[mkalevv]

I've been out of the loop for about a year and change, this deck is totally new to me.

Am I mistaken that this is potentially a better Belcher deck? The red acceleration, wish targets, etc. seem a more stable option, but as derp. Already have Belcher built, putting this together doesn't seem too far different.

Are folks generally pro LED if available. Some decklists don'the include.

This deck is not Belcher... In my opinion, this is no doubt way better. Does it win T1? Rarely. T2? Occasionally. T3...T3+? yes. This deck is significantly better than a basic belcher deck "win on T1 or concede" due to its ability to win through all forms of disruption. Everyone else who has put in reps will agree - This deck grinds. You have the capability of winning on turn 8 just as much as on turn 3. The redundancy and resilience it provides makes this a deck that I think is better than you think.

I am running 2 LEDs - which, yes, is middle of the road... To reference the originators of the deck, some will push the full 4 LED and go for the immediate tendrils win, others aim for the Empty the Warrens win. Maybe I am playing both sides of the fence, but I think its worth it for the multiple win conditions. I feel that the Empty plan has won me just as many games as Tendrils - therefore I like 2 Empty main deck and the one Tendrils in the Wish board.

With regard to the sideboard - the following list subject to change. I've also experimented with Telemin Performance, Fiery Confluence, Pyroblast, and Anger of the Gods.

2 Guttersnipe
4 Manamorphose
4 Rite of Flame
7 Mountain
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Burning Wish
2 Empty the Warrens
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Past in Flames
4 Act on Impulse
1 Gamble
1 Shreds of Sanity
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Helm of Awakening
4 Seething Song
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 2 Scab-Clan Berserker
SB: 2 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Goblin War Strike
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 By Force
SB: 2 Defense Grid
SB: 1 Cave-In

[mistercakes]

I think the deck is pretty close to a standard build now (about 5-7 cards maindeck difference if you exclude choice of lands)

I actually don't like maindeck empty, but that's just a preference of mine. I'm finally sold on some. Number of guttersnipe, he's a great threat and if unchecked, you will the game shortly after.

I experimented with gifts ungiven again, but it wasn't as good as hoped for.

The only thing left for this deck is waiting for more cards to come out. Since it's mono red, they might not show up as often, but any analogue of act on impulse or manamorphose would be huge.

This deck will only get better in time, I don't think the same can be said for Belcher, ANT or TES.

Be mindful of the rise of miracles again, there may be a preference for running red blasts/pyroblasts if Counterbalance sees a lot more play again.

I'll finally have a chance to play a local again this week (after months), so I'll update after that.

Hope all is well with the rest.

I'm on 3 guttersnipe, 1 shreds, 1 helm, 0 empty, 1 gamble.
Rest is pretty stock for my builds.

[compacta_d]

I think the deck is pretty close to a standard build now (about 5-7 cards maindeck difference if you exclude choice of lands)

I actually don't like maindeck empty, but that's just a preference of mine. I'm finally sold on some. Number of guttersnipe, he's a great threat and if unchecked, you will the game shortly after.

I experimented with gifts ungiven again, but it wasn't as good as hoped for.

The only thing left for this deck is waiting for more cards to come out. Since it's mono red, they might not show up as often, but any analogue of act on impulse or manamorphose would be huge.

This deck will only get better in time, I don't think the same can be said for Belcher, ANT or TES.

Be mindful of the rise of miracles again, there may be a preference for running red blasts/pyroblasts if Counterbalance sees a lot more play again.

I'll finally have a chance to play a local again this week (after months), so I'll update after that.

Hope all is well with the rest.

I'm on 3 guttersnipe, 1 shreds, 1 helm, 0 empty, 1 gamble.
Rest is pretty stock for my builds.

Guttersnipes main or SB?

[mistercakes]

3 main, but Copenhagen store is closed tonight, so no magic for me!

[compacta_d]

Interesting. I wanted to wait til I could get to my laptop to write out.

Went 2-1 FNM legacy. Beat Tezzerator and storm. Lost to BUG shadow/delver but we did ID first anyway.

My list:
13 land

3 tombs
4 fetchs
6 mountains

5 cheapeners

2 helm
3 ruby

42 spells

4 faithless looting
2 mizzix mastery
2 reforge the soul
1 past in flames
1 tendrils of agony
4 seething song
4 probe
4 rite of flame
4 manamorph
4 act on impulse
4 petal
4 leds
4 burning wish

sb

1 reforge
1 mizzix
1 past in flames
1 tendrils of agony
1 empty the warrens
3 defense grid
2 pyroblast
1 slaughter games
1 flame slash
1 cave-in
1 by force
1 abrade

I've been focusing on optimizing the deck to not whiff and it feels rather good in that aspect. faithless + mizzix's mastery is pretty damn good, and mizzix's on on its own gets overloaded a LOT. Burning wish into it with LED makes it pretty easy even without a ruby in play.

I've been drawing too many land, and specifically Ancient Tomb. Those numbers may change, but they felt very good friday night and in goldfishing.

I'd like to get away from empty the warrens, but it feels like a good panic button so far.

Flame slash is for leovolds and other hate bears, and because i have an altered one i like to play.

[ahg113]

Not so much in recent postings, but I saw scab-clan in a few lists. Any thought on Demigod of Revenge? It's an lol card that could catch opponents off guard. The "recur" from graveyard is a bonus. I've luck-sacked a win or two by including them in Belcher. Doesn't get cheaper with rocks though.

Need to figure out some store credit nonsense, then plan on ordering this deck to play soon.

Keep posting, I have more to learn.

[compacta_d]

Went 2-1 (id for first) with the above list again at Tuesday Night legacy.

As of now the only changes I can even manage to think of would be sideboard stuff.

The silver bullets rarely come into play, but they are there for a reason. Testing the Slaughter Games my secret santa gave me. Haven't needed it YET, but silver bullets etc. I don't need Flame Slash all the time, but when I do, THAT'S the thing I need.

the third defense grid he gave me has been awesome. as well as the pyroblasts.

As much as I don't Empty the Warrens, sometimes that is the answer.

Last round played against my friend on Grixis delver. Whiffed on an Act on Impulse that he got a bit lucky on. Also game one he kept a Daze, daze, FOW hand that rocked me pretty hard. He was able to back it up with Young Pyro aggro to clock me faster than I can topdeck gas. Our game 2 I had an unfortunate reforge that gave him the FOW. My mana relied on the Petal I drew and he knew to FOW it. We've known each other long enough that he can smell the lynch pins in my combos regardless of if he's seen it before. I can usually smell his answers as well, but I don't not go for it, especially when I was dead on board otherwise.

[ronco]

, but I don't not go for it, especially when I was dead on board otherwise.

If it were me, I'd have done the same thing. Even if lethal wasn't on board, I don't think anything is gained by waiting with this deck if you've got the gas to go (most of the time).

[compacta_d]

If it were me, I'd have done the same thing. Even if lethal wasn't on board, I don't think anything is gained by waiting with this deck if you've got the gas to go (most of the time).

sometimes waiting a turn for a bigger payout to fight through counters is worth it. Feel like I'm getting a good feel for those situations now though.

Faithless Looting and Mizzix's Mastery are very good and I recommend everyone try them out if you haven't.

[ronco]

sometimes waiting a turn for a bigger payout to fight through counters is worth it. Feel like I'm getting a good feel for those situations now though.

Faithless Looting and Mizzix's Mastery are very good and I recommend everyone try them out if you haven't.

Yeah, that may be true. I don't have a ton of experience vs counter. My thought process was more in line with if I don't have what I need to go off, I still try to and gamble (ha... ha...) that I draw into it with my cantrips. And if I don't, then I PIF and do it all over again.

I had FL in as my flex slots that I swapped out for shreds of sanity and I think I like the latter better although I was happy with FL in the first place. These were originally Reforge for me. Maybe its because I'm not running LED at the moment though. I see you still have 2 reforge in your main. I keep one in my SB for the cases where it won't hurt me but I'm still leery of giving my opponent a fresh grip. It's bit me too many times. I assume this hasn't been a problem for you?

I'll give mizzix a shot.

[compacta_d]

Yeah, that may be true. I don't have a ton of experience vs counter. My thought process was more in line with if I don't have what I need to go off, I still try to and gamble (ha... ha...) that I draw into it with my cantrips. And if I don't, then I PIF and do it all over again.

I had FL in as my flex slots that I swapped out for shreds of sanity and I think I like the latter better although I was happy with FL in the first place. These were originally Reforge for me. Maybe its because I'm not running LED at the moment though. I see you still have 2 reforge in your main. I keep one in my SB for the cases where it won't hurt me but I'm still leery of giving my opponent a fresh grip. It's bit me too many times. I assume this hasn't been a problem for you?

I'll give mizzix a shot.

I have defense grid in the SB, that usually locks them out regardless of cards. Even in scenarios where it refuels them, it usually also refuels me more. The redundancy alloted with Mizzix's allows for plays like: Tendrils, gets flusterstormed. Ok. Mizzix's mastery recast. then Burning wish mizzix again. All possible in same turn. Once reforge goes off I usually start stacking helms/rubys for additional benefit.

Reforge is also great with mizzix's. Also been considering trying to slot in 1 Hazoret's undying. Considering -4 act on impulse for +1 reforge +1 mizzix +1 past in flames +1 HUF.

I feel like there are quite a few cards that can just jam in the deck. I've been trying to find the right mix that allow for the least dropped combos.

[compacta_d]

3-0 at fnm with the same 75 now.

7-2 total with that 75. I call it the secret santa 75.

Beat TES in 2. Unlucky Ad Naus put him to 1. Pass turn. Burning wish-cave in to finish it.

Beat burn in 3. Sick line where I tendrils with a pyroatatic pillar out. Him at 4. Me at 20. Eventually had to empty the Warren's. If he had 2 fireblast I would have died. He did not. Burn and other aggro solidify tendrils maindeck for me.

Beat BUG shadow in 3.

No crazy plays here. Game 3 he had a bunch if Dazes. I laughed at them. He did kill a few Ruby's in the process though.

Starting to feel very good about the deck.

[Knighthawk]

http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/rivals-of-ixalan/33732-pirates-pillage

We may have a new toy, maybe not. What do you guys think?


Pirate's Pillage
3R sorcery, additional cost discard a card

Draw 2 cards and create 2 treasure artifact tokens. (Basically token lotus petals)

[ahg113]

Previously mentioned Demigod, that was a dumb dumb comment. Was unfamiliar with deck and goals.

But, as i purchase pieces and peruse lists, as far as sweepers go, any thought on blasphemous act (instead of singleton abrade)? Only benefit of flame slash seems to get under Gaddock, or cave-in hitting opponents. As far as costs go, Act should be so easy to cast, and is nigh guarantee to kill everything non-indestructible/emmy/tnn.

Food for thought.

Regrading the pirate, most analogous seems to be faithless, this is plus two mana, but more expensive to cast, cost a card upfront instead of resolution, has no inherit flashback. I'm encouraged, but not overly impressed. Needs three/two rocks, to make near broken, ergo, not really. Don't consider this strong enough to be a 1-of, nor a 4-of.

[Mr. Safety]

http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/rivals-of-ixalan/33732-pirates-pillage

We may have a new toy, maybe not. What do you guys think?


Pirate's Pillage
3R sorcery, additional cost discard a card

Draw 2 cards and create 2 treasure artifact tokens. (Basically token lotus petals)

I think it's good, not great. With a reducer it's better than looting because you draw 2, discard 1, then get 2 mana. I like that the tokens can make black mana for Tendrils. I think Shreds of sanity is likely still better, and that card isn't an auto-include, it needs ro be explored more.

[mistercakes]

the artifact seems okay, good for MRS against gravehate + snapcaster + improving the reanimator matchup + deathrite shaman.

hopefully we'll get some new toys with this set and the dominaria set upcoming in the next few months. i'm not really interested in trying out cards that are bad versions of current cards.

pillage could be okay, being able to draw 2 for 2R does seem okay, needing 2R with a rock isn't small though, but finishing with 2 cards and RR available after still merits a little testing. start with a playset and see where it goes from there.

Actually it seems the same as tormenting voice, except slightly better in some situations where you have to pass the turn.

[compacta_d]

Previously mentioned Demigod, that was a dumb dumb comment. Was unfamiliar with deck and goals.

But, as i purchase pieces and peruse lists, as far as sweepers go, any thought on blasphemous act (instead of singleton abrade)? Only benefit of flame slash seems to get under Gaddock, or cave-in hitting opponents. As far as costs go, Act should be so easy to cast, and is nigh guarantee to kill everything non-indestructible/emmy/tnn.

Food for thought.

Regrading the pirate, most analogous seems to be faithless, this is plus two mana, but more expensive to cast, cost a card upfront instead of resolution, has no inherit flashback. I'm encouraged, but not overly impressed. Needs three/two rocks, to make near broken, ergo, not really. Don't consider this strong enough to be a 1-of, nor a 4-of.

blasphemous act is kinda of lose more. If opponent has 5 creatures, you probably already lost.

I go cave in and flame slash for the cheapness. Pyoclasm is also good though.

[compacta_d]

the artifact seems okay, good for MRS against gravehate + snapcaster + improving the reanimator matchup + deathrite shaman.

hopefully we'll get some new toys with this set and the dominaria set upcoming in the next few months. i'm not really interested in trying out cards that are bad versions of current cards.

pillage could be okay, being able to draw 2 for 2R does seem okay, needing 2R with a rock isn't small though, but finishing with 2 cards and RR available after still merits a little testing. start with a playset and see where it goes from there.

Actually it seems the same as tormenting voice, except slightly better in some situations where you have to pass the turn.

I don't know that pillage is worse. It adds 2 mana rocks.

its like somewhere combined a tormenting voice and manamorphose.

Though thinking of plays...tormenting likely costs R and draws 2. Pillage likely costs 2R adds RR and draws 2 netting -1 mana. Definitely evens out unless you have 2 Rubies, in which case, probably already winning? It's more difficult to get to 3-4 than it is to get to 1-2 though. especially early game.

Once the storm is growing though it gets better. Too big of a thing for too little I think though.

[ahg113]

Chandra, Torch of Defiance. Kinda like a guttersnipe, but not. Too cute and unnecessary, or a valid plan b kill card? Thinking too cute, as it takes a while to ultimate, but the mana ramp is nice.

[mistercakes]

I had Chandra in the original hazoret's builds, it was solid, but it doesn't really help the major game plan enough.

Feel free to keep trying it though, bc the card is good Vs a lot of the field in general.

[compacta_d]

I had Chandra in the original hazoret's builds, it was solid, but it doesn't really help the major game plan enough.

Feel free to keep trying it though, bc the card is good Vs a lot of the field in general.

i picked them up for this deck. never ran them. Never felt like i NEEDED to run them.

or guttersnipe for that matter.

deck feels like you can jam a different like 20 cards and probably be fine.

[compacta_d]

I'm at a point where act on impulse feels like the worst card to me.

I may try this new pillage thing in that slot at least gold fishing, but probably not the answer.

[mistercakes]

I think that's objectively wrong. AoI is likely the best non ramp card in the deck.

[ahg113]

Modeling my list after compact_d, have another sb question.

Why By Force over Shattering Spree? If I'm correct, the replicated copies dodge Chalice, costs 1 r more, can't use ancient tomb, but it just seems more versatile, opponent needs a flustered storm instead of just FoW. Talking out loud.

[mistercakes]

Modeling my list after compact_d, have another sb question.

Why By Force over Shattering Spree? If I'm correct, the replicated copies dodge Chalice, costs 1 r more, can't use ancient tomb, but it just seems more versatile, opponent needs a flustered storm instead of just FoW. Talking out loud.

play both if you want. i like by force because of the sol lands. it's rather tricky to get multiple red mana when there's some lock pieces. both are good. i also like abrade as it can kill thalia, deathrite, delver etc.

by force just happens to be what i used and i don't think people change sb's too much.

[compacta_d]

play both if you want. i like by force because of the sol lands. it's rather tricky to get multiple red mana when there's some lock pieces. both are good. i also like abrade as it can kill thalia, deathrite, delver etc.

by force just happens to be what i used and i don't think people change sb's too much.

In addition it is cheapened by helm/ ruby.

I often CAN cast it x=2 but only pay a single R.

[compacta_d]

I think that's objectively wrong. AoI is likely the best non ramp card in the deck.

that may be, but 9/10 times the combo drops, it's because of a bad Act on impulse. The other 1 is because a bad Reforge, which DOES happen, just much more unlikely because 7>3.

[ronco]

that may be, but 9/10 times the combo drops, it's because of a bad Act on impulse. The other 1 is because a bad Reforge, which DOES happen, just much more unlikely because 7>3.

Compact - how often do you cast tendrils outright vs off a mizzix? Do the AOIs help with being able to use LED to cast "out of the hand"?

[compacta_d]

Compact - how often do you cast tendrils outright vs off a mizzix? Do the AOIs help with being able to use LED to cast "out of the hand"?

Please don't forget the "a" in compacta ;)

All the time. I would say half of my mizzix's are overloaded, then the other half is divided between: reforge the soul, tendrils, seething song, and act on impulse.

the awesome thing about mizzix's is that it casts, so the storm count is instantly a LOT and you can put tendrils first in case they have any ideas. Or stack the rits first if you think it'll get flusterstormed, but why would they not flusterstorm the mizzix in the first place? they would.


The LED/AOI interaction is sweet, but Burning wish/Reforge/Past in Flames+LED interaction is sweeter IMO.

AOI is very strong. I'm noticing the most times I drop a combo that is the pivot point where it happens. It also picks up games I wouldn't win otherwise when I flip my land drop, Led, and burning wish etc.

Switching over to Slivers so I won't be playing Red Storm for a while. winning 3 fnms in a row was a good ending to 2017 though.

[compacta_d]

TBH i was as skeptical on Mizzix's Mastery as I think every else was, or still is.

What tipped me over the edge was the Show and Tell deck that ran Enter the Infinite with it.

I thought "Between Faithless Looting and Reforge the Soul I can get that in the yard easy!"

I proxy jammed 3 of each with 1 of each in the wish board.

When goldfishing I found that Enter the Infinite was much harder to get in the yard than I previously thought, HOWEVER Mizzix's Mastery + Reforge the Soul and Faithless Looting was very good on its own.

I proxied back out the Enters and left the rest. I still had grapeshot at this point. I did so much casting+flashing back in same turn of Grape Shot I thought "This could just be tendrils" which would also buy time against burn/aggro decks. There's a local burn player that had been kicking my ass at this point.

After that it was tweeking the numbers.

Once I started taking it to the local tourneys, I found I can overload Mizzix's Mastery WAY MORE than I thought was possible.

The argument is "why would I cast 1 spell from yard, when PIF lets me cast ALL of them" but the counter argument is you don't have to pay for the spell, OR you can pay 8, but MORE often 6-7 and cast ALL of them without paying the mana. It also adds 1 to the storm count.

pay 4 mana to PIF from yard, then at least aother 1-2 to start a ritual chain. Or pay 7 mana to "Cast your Graveyard". I found with Seething Song, "Cast your Graveyard" is a realistic gameplan. This deck has BIG MANA.

Plus I still play PIF anyway. A mix is right IMO.

[ronco]

Sorry about the -a Compacta :)
Would you play mizzix's without the LEDs? Or do you consider those a package? I have my 4 in another deck, which is why I ask. I can just proxy them for testing.

I have my mizzix's on the way. I'll test them out myself soon!

[mistercakes]

Good luck with the slivers. I'm waiting for dominaria to come back around before sleeving it back up.

I will try out a mizzix and try faithless again. Still mostly just waiting on a new card to come out. Haven't really had much time to play in general, so it's mostly just goldfishing at this point.

[compacta_d]

Sorry about the -a Compacta :)
Would you play mizzix's without the LEDs? Or do you consider those a package? I have my 4 in another deck, which is why I ask. I can just proxy them for testing.

I have my mizzix's on the way. I'll test them out myself soon!

I think you can, burning wish-priority crack led overload mizzix is a strong play.

If you are running desperate rits it may end up being the same really. TEST!!!!

[compacta_d]

Good luck with the slivers. I'm waiting for dominaria to come back around before sleeving it back up.

I will try out a mizzix and try faithless again. Still mostly just waiting on a new card to come out. Haven't really had much time to play in general, so it's mostly just goldfishing at this point.

I'm hoping. They really got to give us something after giving merfolk all this hot business.

SLIVERS NEED HOT BUSINESS.

[compacta_d]

OOH mastermind's aquisition. Possible addition!

[ahg113]

OOH mastermind's aquisition. Possible addition!

It's definitely sexy, a better Burning Wish, by a good margin. Only, it's double black, so are the hoops worth it to get the proper splash in (manamorphose, petals, led, not suggesting badlands)?

Also makes a split toward helm more appealing, which marginally helps our opponents.

Food for thought though.

[mistercakes]

How is this better than burning wish? Burning Wish is a tutor for R in this deck.

[ahg113]

How is this better than burning wish? Burning Wish is a tutor for R in this deck.

It's a tutor for a card in the deck, or a tutor for a wish target in the sb, it doesn't self exile upon resolution either, so it could be cast again from the gy. The two black are achievable with petals and manamorphose, but yeah, that's the bummer. Two rocks are achievable to make it cost 2. I see a demonic tutor joined to a burning wish with the qualifier, either/or. Plus, it can grab any card from deck/sb, no sorcery restriction. And M.A. is without the typical black drawback nonsense, loss of life/additional cost sacrifice.

Last edit: if this were included, pirate's pillage becomes a much more attractive card. Help filter mana, making petals. In place of faithless looting likely. Trade the natural flashback ability for two petals.

But ultimately, :b::b: > :r:

[mistercakes]

This card is too expensive and most of the time is just a diabolic tutor, which we would never ever play.

[ahg113]

The list that played gamble wanted a 5th PiF. So the there is desire for in deck tutors for some cards. To limit it at just a diabolic tutor is short changed. It allows access to sb cards that b.wish does not. Having more options is never a bad thing, figuring how to pay for them can be tough though.

[compacta_d]

I don't think it would be a 4 of. Likely a 1 of as Burning Wish#5.

The new red snapcaster mage though. That could be hot.

Steal opponent's brainstorms?! (in 50% of all decks)

[mistercakes]

i'd rather take their ponders :)

i'll probably just go back to playing stupid janky hazoret's builds until i get a new good red card for the deck.

this is what i'll mess around with for the time being:

// 11 Artifact
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Lotus Petal
3 Helm of Awakening

// 10 Instant
4 Manamorphose
4 Seething Song
2 Desperate Ritual

// 14 Land
11 Mountain
3 Ancient Tomb

// 25 Sorcery
2 Past in Flames
4 Act on Impulse
4 Burning Wish
4 Rite of Flame
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Reforge the Soul
3 Hazoret's Undying Fury
1 Gamble

[Mr. Safety]

I don't think it would be a 4 of. Likely a 1 of as Burning Wish#5.

The new red snapcaster mage though. That could be hot.

Steal opponent's brainstorms?! (in 50% of all decks)

What is this you speak of? Red Snapcaster mage?

[rufus]

What is this you speak of? Red Snapcaster mage?

Not half as good...



:1::r:

First strike

When Dire Fleet Daredevil enters the battlefield, exile target instant or sorcery card from an opponent's graveyard. You may cast that card this turn, and you may spend mana as though it were mana of any type to cast that spell. If that card would be put into a graveyard this turn, exile it instead.

2/1

[compacta_d]

Not half as good...

pretty good IMO.

It doesnt have flash, but it does take opponents gas AND filter mana to cast it. Also a very nice first strike blocker.

Stuff against burn can do this and bolt their guy etc.

Vs delver/czech steal brainstorms.

Can wheel into stuff and steal opponents flusterstorms etc.

I like it quite a bit.

[Mr. Safety]

I think it fits a lot better in a tempo deck than a combo deck. I could see this being very powerful in modern, but legacy seems a bit too overpopulated with deathrite shaman. Don't get me wrong, it seems powerful but not for this deck I don't think.

I've been meaning to try out shreds of sanity, still haven't gotten there.

[Knighthawk]

Question, would Blood Sun be an effective tool new to our arsenal? If I'm understanding correctly it allows sol lands to do their thing but not be sac'd and still cantrips. Or did I misread it?

[mistercakes]

it's okay. depends on your metagame. i am not convinced the impact of the card is strong enough, maybe in an environment with a lot of tempo decks (lots of fetch lands) and lots of turbo depths. outside of that i think the impact is rather small. we don't care much about wasteland/port enough to run this card and many of the other lands just aren't impactful enough.

i have some new tech for this deck, but will need some time to test and then i will post about it after the fact.

stay tuned :)

[compacta_d]

it's okay. depends on your metagame. i am not convinced the impact of the card is strong enough, maybe in an environment with a lot of tempo decks (lots of fetch lands) and lots of turbo depths. outside of that i think the impact is rather small. we don't care much about wasteland/port enough to run this card and many of the other lands just aren't impactful enough.

i have some new tech for this deck, but will need some time to test and then i will post about it after the fact.

stay tuned :)

I agree with that. Most of the time we don't care about opponent's lands. Marit Lage is often too slow anyway.

[compacta_d]

i have some new tech for this deck, but will need some time to test and then i will post about it after the fact.

stay tuned :)

this is actually driving me crazy. I NEED TO KNOW

[ronco]

this is actually driving me crazy. I NEED TO KNOW

second!
Looking forward to it!

[mistercakes]

3-1 at weekly.

Beat pile 2-0
Beat eldrazi post 2-1
Beat aggro loam 2-1
Lose to pile 0-2

Still needs more testing.

[Mr. Safety]

Dude, you're killing us! I got my set of Shreds of Insanity, so that will be my next testing avenue. I'm not sure where to give ground for it, most likely Empty the Warrens (playing 3 maindeck still) or Overmaster (same, 3 maindeck.) I won't cut any number of Act on Impulse, that card is the nuts. I see it as a mini-PiF which could actually support the Empty the Warrens maindeck plan (which I lean on strongly) much better. Having it for 3 mana at most and typically at 2 mana with a reducer makes it very strong.

TL;DR: I think Shreds will be good in testing. Has anyone else explored the card further? @ronco: weren't you on Shreds for a while?

[compacta_d]

Dude, you're killing us! I got my set of Shreds of Insanity, so that will be my next testing avenue. I'm not sure where to give ground for it, most likely Empty the Warrens (playing 3 maindeck still) or Overmaster (same, 3 maindeck.) I won't cut any number of Act on Impulse, that card is the nuts. I see it as a mini-PiF which could actually support the Empty the Warrens maindeck plan (which I lean on strongly) much better. Having it for 3 mana at most and typically at 2 mana with a reducer makes it very strong.

TL;DR: I think Shreds will be good in testing. Has anyone else explored the card further? @ronco: weren't you on Shreds for a while?

I started out with it.

To me Mizzix's Mastery is better. It is the card that somewhat convinced me of mizz's potential though.

[compacta_d]

3-1 at weekly.

Beat pile 2-0
Beat eldrazi post 2-1
Beat aggro loam 2-1
Lose to pile 0-2

Still needs more testing.

As "figuring matchups" is concerned those all feel like good matchups to me. The czech pile player in my meta is prob my closest friend and very good on top of knowing my BS well.

Any time I play against other players on the same, I usually do much better.

I am still interested in the tech as well. This deck feels like you can jam 20-30 different cards and still go off most times.

[ronco]

Yep, I'm still on shreds. Sometimes I'm light on sorceries but its working well for me now. They replaced faithless looting in my deck. It's not a slam dunk all star, IMO, but it is a strong contender. I do agree with you on AOI, though. I think that needs to stay x4. On thing I might try is going to a 3/3 mix of the reducers.

List for reference from a few pages back:



11 Mountain
4 ancient tomb
2 helm of awakening
4 ruby medallion
4 seething song
4 desperate ritual
4 rite of flame
4 lotus petal
4 manamorphose
4 gitaxian probe
4 burning wish
4 act on impulse
3 past in flames
2 Hazoret's undying fury
2 shreds of sanity
1 empty the warrens


Sideboard:

1 Goblin war strike
1 Hazoret's Undying fury
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
1 Reforge the soul
1 By force
3 guttersnipe
3 defense grid
1 pyroclasm
1 past in flames


Wheel/draw/cantrips:
16 (counting shreds, not counting wishes)

Mana generators:
20, counting lotus petals


I did get one mizzix's in but I haven't had time to test it out yet. I may pull my hazoret's out of the SB and replace it there. I will say the 2 HUF in the main seem to be working though. I know this group is love/hate on them it seems, and i'm not love for 4, but I am love for 2 MD.

I haven't played compacta_d's list yet, but i'm thinking it plays a little bit differently. Between the reforge/LED/Faithless, that one seems to be an all in on getting cards in the yard then bringing them back with a mizzix, whereas the other ones have an option of casting from the hand/SB if the mana works out. Is that a correct statement? Just trying to get a read on it from looking at list. That isn't my strong point so i'm just trying to clarify my understanding haha. But the more I think about it, the more I think mizzix's is a VERY strong card but changes the deck to more of an all in combo finish vs this one that has the option to drop a smaller EtW if it can't go off this turn.

[compacta_d]

3-1 at weekly.

Beat pile 2-0
Beat eldrazi post 2-1
Beat aggro loam 2-1
Lose to pile 0-2

Still needs more testing.

Other than suspense, I do think you should share just to get more data. I do 2x weeklies a week and can get lots quick.

I don't do MTGO though.

[ahg113]

I've been gold fishing a list similar to compacta_d's list, -2 Faithless Looting, +2 Guttersnipe.

It's awesome. Usually around a t3 kill, it's very self-gratifying in a way similar to manaless dredge, can take a while doing stuff without doing anything until it's over. Often times, it appears that the combo win is present, but there''s more gas, so why not keep going and exhaust all the lines of play. By t5, there''s often only <10 cards left in library, which I view as a good thing, given a number of rocks and petals/led/snipes in play.

I do wonder on the fearless aspect, will only come with actual games. Manaless tendencies to just jam don't always feel right, but not every player will have FoW, or flusterstorm up.

Waiting on my AoI's in the mail, along with Shreds. Not sure where I'd put Shreds in the current deck.

Also, mizzix is awesome.

[compacta_d]

I've been gold fishing a list similar to compacta_d's list, -2 Faithless Looting, +2 Guttersnipe.

It's awesome. Usually around a t3 kill, it's very self-gratifying in a way similar to manaless dredge, can take a while doing stuff without doing anything until it's over. Often times, it appears that the combo win is present, but there''s more gas, so why not keep going and exhaust all the lines of play. By t5, there''s often only <10 cards left in library, which I view as a good thing, given a number of rocks and petals/led/snipes in play.

I do wonder on the fearless aspect, will only come with actual games. Manaless tendencies to just jam don't always feel right, but not every player will have FoW, or flusterstorm up.

Waiting on my AoI's in the mail, along with Shreds. Not sure where I'd put Shreds in the current deck.

Also, mizzix is awesome.

Yeah I've definitely had games where I've had to count how many cards are left in the library for fear of Reforging my soul out of the game.

Flusterstorm isn't a problem for this deck. Play it up and see how many times you have 10+man available when you fire the kill spell.

Or post sb when you have defense grid.

Flusterstorm is best used on the first ritual for us. Or trying to catch a key draw spell etc.

[Mr. Safety]

Here's my current list, 5 reducers, 18 rituals counting Manamorphose, 11 cantrips/draw, 9 engine pieces, 14 lands, 3 threats main (Empty.)

4x Ruby Medallion
1x Helm of Awakening

4x Rite of Flame
4x Seething Song
4x Lotus Petal
1x Simian Spirit Guide
1x Desperate Ritual

4x Gitaxian Probe
3x Overmaster
4x Act on Impulse
4x Manamorphose

3x Past in Flames
1x Hazoret’s Undying Fury
1x Gamble
4x Burning Wish
3x Empty the Warrens

10x Mountain
4x Crystal Vein

Sideboard
1x Goblin War Strike
1x Past in Flames
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Grapeshot
1x Cave-In
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x By Force
1x Reforge the Soul
2x Blood Moon
1x Guttersnipe
1x Tormod’s Crypt
2x Scab-Clan Berserker
1x ensnaring bridge


I will likely go -1 Empty the Warrens, -1 Gamble/Overmaster, +2 Shreds of Sanity. Shreds seems to be much better at filling in the gaps than Gamble, especially if I punt and then I need to restart. I've been grinding away at another deck lately, but this deck is still on my radar screen.

[mistercakes]

Other than suspense, I do think you should share just to get more data. I do 2x weeklies a week and can get lots quick.

I don't do MTGO though.

sorry, i haven't played much in the last few months. this was my 4th time playing magic since my son was born in may. (i did do a bunch of modo back in july, but that came to abrupt stop when he became more human.)

[compacta_d]

sorry, i haven't played much in the last few months. this was my 4th time playing magic since my son was born in may. (i did do a bunch of modo back in july, but that came to abrupt stop when he became more human.)

CONGRATS!!!!!!!!!!

Not sure if you mentioned and I congratulated you.

[ronco]

Baby making, the ultimate home brew! Congrats!

[compacta_d]

LOL mistercakes baby

babycakes

[ronco]

LOL mistercakes baby

babycakes

If this was facebook I would like this post.

[Manroe]

So I've really been enjoying this deck and I really enjoy trying to find new tech. Has anyone tried a Fork effect yet?

[mistercakes]

we tried fork (or the m11 one) and also dualcaster mage was tested. i believe vieko said that dualcaster was fine as a 1 of.

we also tried using the one with buyback, as if you have 2 rocks in play and a seething song you could generate infinite storm.

cast seething song, cast reiterate with buyback (get enough mana to cast it with buyback over and over again etc). i can't recall if 1 or 2 rocks gave you infinite storm (an additional rock would generate infinite mana).

keep in mind you can only do buyback if it's in your hand, not flashed back. it was cute, dunno how good it was.

thanks for all the congrats. keeps me busy! hopefully i'll be able to start making my weekly a bit more often in the next few months.

also - my brother unfortunately got stuck with baby cakes for a few years when he was in high school. fortunately for everyone it's been decades.

[mistercakes]

So I don't mind posting now bc I likely won't get enough games in with this configuration.

I was testing the two portal draw 4 discard 3 at random. In goldfishing it was quite good.

Unfortunately during my pile matchups I was against turn 2 Leovold on the play several games.

The card is still very good and bonkers if played from the graveyard.

I'll be testing something else in the next few weeks but may revert back to the draw 4s.

Its also an excellent turn 2 play to set up for a turn 3 kill if you don't have a Ruby.

There's times when luck will screw you over, but generally it's more good than bad.

[ahg113]

Used Google to find those card names, effects were unfamiliar. Came across this thread, fun reading.

http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/casual-multiplayer-formats/multiplayer/701141-mono-red-card-draw-discussion

Tell me again that Daretti, Scrap Savant is a bad card for us. It seems like fun, filtering cards, getting back petals or LEDs. Very silly though, I know.

[mistercakes]

It's a bad card for us. :)

If I'm weldering I want some good artifacts.

[compacta_d]

we tried fork (or the m11 one) and also dualcaster mage was tested. i believe vieko said that dualcaster was fine as a 1 of.

we also tried using the one with buyback, as if you have 2 rocks in play and a seething song you could generate infinite storm.

cast seething song, cast reiterate with buyback (get enough mana to cast it with buyback over and over again etc). i can't recall if 1 or 2 rocks gave you infinite storm (an additional rock would generate infinite mana).

keep in mind you can only do buyback if it's in your hand, not flashed back. it was cute, dunno how good it was.

thanks for all the congrats. keeps me busy! hopefully i'll be able to start making my weekly a bit more often in the next few months.

also - my brother unfortunately got stuck with baby cakes for a few years when he was in high school. fortunately for everyone it's been decades.

Family history name? even better!

so was he babycakes and you are mistercakes?

Are you talking about Goblin Lore?!?!?!

[compacta_d]

Goblin lore is a pretty hard sell to me.

I'll test them.

It'll likely replace faithless and reforge, but I LOVE both of those cards. I don't have a good track record with "at random" OR with "Draw 4's"

[mistercakes]

yea and control of the court (i tried 3 of each and eventually ended up playing more guttersnipes).

i think i'll have to test some more cards if i can before settling back on them, but overall they were fine. they also net 0 cards if played from the hand. (faithless is -1, reforge is a bit tough to cast some games which is why i've cut them maindeck, but they are powerful vs the non blue decks. i'd say it's more meta dependent on whether you want to run them)

from the graveyard the lore/court will actually net you a card, and after you cast a few probes/manamorphose first it's pretty great to draw 4 discard 3 at random when you already have 3/4 cards in hand while it's on the stack.

looting might be better overall as it gives you control, but sometimes the negative card advantage can really creep up on you.

[compacta_d]

yea and control of the court (i tried 3 of each and eventually ended up playing more guttersnipes).

i think i'll have to test some more cards if i can before settling back on them, but overall they were fine. they also net 0 cards if played from the hand. (faithless is -1, reforge is a bit tough to cast some games which is why i've cut them maindeck, but they are powerful vs the non blue decks. i'd say it's more meta dependent on whether you want to run them)

from the graveyard the lore/court will actually net you a card, and after you cast a few probes/manamorphose first it's pretty great to draw 4 discard 3 at random when you already have 3/4 cards in hand while it's on the stack.

looting might be better overall as it gives you control, but sometimes the negative card advantage can really creep up on you.


Reforge typically counteracts that.

Defense Grids come in over probes when i SB and the blue matchups dont feel bad.

[mistercakes]

yep, i'm just continuously testing. i've found that defense grid doesn't do much vs the decks with abrupt decay + kolaghan's command. vs a delver deck or miracles deck defense grid is much better. don't get me wrong, i like that they are killing grid over my ruby, but that's how many of my games have played out.

btw the deck i lost to the other day had

preboard:

flusterstorm, force, spell pierce, thoughtseize, leovold, drs, decay, kolaghan's command and hymn.

postboard he added to that more flusterstorm, hydroblasts, and surgical.

it wasn't great! we played some games afterwards and i had won 1 out of 5 games total. i did lose the first game when he had turn 2 leovold because i had to tendrils him for exact+2 and he drew a FoW and a spell pierce while I only had 1 mana available.

[compacta_d]

yep, i'm just continuously testing. i've found that defense grid doesn't do much vs the decks with abrupt decay + kolaghan's command. vs a delver deck or miracles deck defense grid is much better. don't get me wrong, i like that they are killing grid over my ruby, but that's how many of my games have played out.

btw the deck i lost to the other day had

preboard:

flusterstorm, force, spell pierce, thoughtseize, leovold, drs, decay, kolaghan's command and hymn.

postboard he added to that more flusterstorm, hydroblasts, and surgical.

it wasn't great! we played some games afterwards and i had won 1 out of 5 games total. i did lose the first game when he had turn 2 leovold because i had to tendrils him for exact+2 and he drew a FoW and a spell pierce while I only had 1 mana available.

That is definitely a lot of tools. I've found that BUG delver is actually the worst feeling. OR even Shardless.

You don't want to test the easy matchups though right?

Defense grid stops all that when comboing out. Why i stick with reforge. That also may be the matchup where you warrens real hard and try to outrace them. Likely they have marsh casualties and toxic deluge though too. Where do they get those wonderful toys?!

[mistercakes]

Yea he had maindeck deluge, but I don't really rely on the goblin plan. My sb had 3 grids but he just blew them up immediately after.

Pile is also the most played deck in eu, or at least roughly even with delver.

[compacta_d]

Yea he had maindeck deluge, but I don't really rely on the goblin plan. My sb had 3 grids but he just blew them up immediately after.

Pile is also the most played deck in eu, or at least roughly even with delver.

that confuses me. He had 6 mana?

nvm.

I don't like goblins either. But sometimes they get the job done.

[mistercakes]

i have 1 empty in the sb for wishing. my games were all won with tendrils or guttersnipe, except one with goblins.

also grid feels like overkill in the delver/miracles matchups. i'd rather just play more threats. pile is the one deck where i'd love to keep it, but most of the time it's just going to get killed or countered. if their draw is slow it's fine and you'll get there, but the odds are stacked in their favor. it's possible we just don't win that one consistently. it is highly played though, so i never really want to just take my chances on dodging that matchup.

[compacta_d]

i have 1 empty in the sb for wishing. my games were all won with tendrils or guttersnipe, except one with goblins.

also grid feels like overkill in the delver/miracles matchups. i'd rather just play more threats. pile is the one deck where i'd love to keep it, but most of the time it's just going to get killed or countered. if their draw is slow it's fine and you'll get there, but the odds are stacked in their favor. it's possible we just don't win that one consistently. it is highly played though, so i never really want to just take my chances on dodging that matchup.

POssibly go the Overmaster route post SB? I also recommend flame slash AND Abrade for leovold. Flame slash is wishable. Slow, but good. Pyroblast is great too. My czech pile friend keeps telling me, but defense grid usually does what I want as well.

Grid has been an allstar for me. I actually bring it in V burn/UR delver as well, which is pretty heavy in my meta.

Also v storm as they'll often have flusterstorm post sb.

with grid and reforge I usually can just lock them out of interacting with me at all while i go off. Stops surgical too.

2 helms mean if I am going big-big I can play for free and they either have to counter that or not counter anything and it usually takes the 1 counter they have.

[mistercakes]

yep, you don't have to sell me on grid, i've played it more or less since the beginning. i think you should just play a lot vs czech pile and see how it fairs you. flame slash is cool too. i'm thinking for games that i don't have a chance winning and have a burning wish, maybe play a fiery gambit in the sb. you have a 12% chance of drawing 9 cards and untapping your lands, as long as they have a creature in play...which is usually the case when you would be put in such a situation.

i don't like overmaster, it's best point is that it is a cantrip for R. i can see a better argument for running pyro/red blasts though. i'll probably play some of them in the next build, i like that they can counter show and tell as well.

[compacta_d]

yep, you don't have to sell me on grid, i've played it more or less since the beginning. i think you should just play a lot vs czech pile and see how it fairs you. flame slash is cool too. i'm thinking for games that i don't have a chance winning and have a burning wish, maybe play a fiery gambit in the sb. you have a 12% chance of drawing 9 cards and untapping your lands, as long as they have a creature in play...which is usually the case when you would be put in such a situation.

i don't like overmaster, it's best point is that it is a cantrip for R. i can see a better argument for running pyro/red blasts though. i'll probably play some of them in the next build, i like that they can counter show and tell as well.

bonus that they kill resolved things like leovold as well.

I put in flame slash because I have an altered one. I was looking through my binder like "i want a 1 mana red sorcery that can kill a leovold." when i saw my sweet mad max flame slash i made this face:

!O.O!

[mistercakes]

Yea my pile of foil cards is increasing constantly bc of this deck.

[ahg113]

Fiery Gambit is a fantastic EDH card. Could find room for it in this sb as well. After playing a game on 'trice and being stone cold to a resolved Leo, I'm all in on the Flame slash bandwagon.

When it comes to siding things in, are probes usually your first cut?

[mistercakes]

They should be, they also lower your count of relevant cards vs Leovold too.

I think you can shave 2 probes and an LED pretty easily. You can also cut a past in flames as usually there's some grave hate.

Fiery Gambit
https://i.imgflip.com/22yng0.jpg

[mistercakes]

you can also consider mizzium mortars instead of flame slash. it deals the same amount for 1 more (0 more if ruby is out) and you can potentially wrath their board.

[compacta_d]

you can also consider mizzium mortars instead of flame slash. it deals the same amount for 1 more (0 more if ruby is out) and you can potentially wrath their board.

AH SHIT you're right.

Probes and LEDs are usually the first to go. Against blue I might go 2/2. or 3/1 Bring in Defense Grids. Maybe Pyroblast. I don't want to remove ALL leds, but getting fow'ed post led crack is brutal.

I only run 1 past in flames, so I'm not cutting that. Might do a mizzix if I expect the DRS, but then overloaded Mizzix's Mastery is probably the best thing to DO versus a DRS, so usually not. Burning wish can kill DRS if I need to. Usually don't care.

[compacta_d]

Yea my pile of foil cards is increasing constantly bc of this deck.

Mine too, I want reforges and AOI's next.

Think i have ONE foil seething song.

[mistercakes]

I've got all foil :)

Has anyone here tested collective defiance? Was thinking of it possibly as a 2 of in the main. It's terrible with led, but otherwise it provides some modes that are useful and can refresh your hand if necessary.

Would like to test, but wanted to know if anyone already has.

[Mr. Safety]

yep, you don't have to sell me on grid, i've played it more or less since the beginning. i think you should just play a lot vs czech pile and see how it fairs you. flame slash is cool too. i'm thinking for games that i don't have a chance winning and have a burning wish, maybe play a fiery gambit in the sb. you have a 12% chance of drawing 9 cards and untapping your lands, as long as they have a creature in play...which is usually the case when you would be put in such a situation.

i don't like overmaster, it's best point is that it is a cantrip for R. i can see a better argument for running pyro/red blasts though. i'll probably play some of them in the next build, i like that they can counter show and tell as well.

The best selling point for Overmaster is non-wish sideboard flexibility. I play 3 main that sometimes allow me to resolve a key spell, but usually just cantrips. This is sided out in non-blue matchup for relevant cards like Blood Moon etc. This is a quirky way of building in sideboard slots that I use in a lot of my decks. I think it works especially well with wishboards.

Regarding the goblins plan, I think War Strike is still really strong in the absence of LED because double black mana is harder to achieve.

I wish reforge was better. Nutty good against non-blue, terrible against blue.

[mistercakes]

i don't know what "non-wish sideboard flexibility is". i don't think i'll be playing any non-led version of the list any time soon. if the version you play works for you that's fine.

[mistercakes]

updating primer. looking for matchup analysis and any other info.

-rob

[compacta_d]

The best selling point for Overmaster is non-wish sideboard flexibility. I play 3 main that sometimes allow me to resolve a key spell, but usually just cantrips. This is sided out in non-blue matchup for relevant cards like Blood Moon etc. This is a quirky way of building in sideboard slots that I use in a lot of my decks. I think it works especially well with wishboards.

Regarding the goblins plan, I think War Strike is still really strong in the absence of LED because double black mana is harder to achieve.

I wish reforge was better. Nutty good against non-blue, terrible against blue.

Defense Grid. Redundancy. Blue matches are my favorite matches. Usually I'm siding out probes and bringing in Grids, because why look at the hand, when I can just stop it.

Terrible in the sense that blue can actually interact with us, where probably every other deck available cannot. And blue usually can't keep up with me at least.

[compacta_d]

I've got all foil :)

Has anyone here tested collective defiance? Was thinking of it possibly as a 2 of in the main. It's terrible with led, but otherwise it provides some modes that are useful and can refresh your hand if necessary.

Would like to test, but wanted to know if anyone already has.

I like it, I'm hesitant because I almost always want 7, not 3, but kill DRS mode is very relevant and it has MORE options than Flame Slash at least.

[compacta_d]

updating primer. looking for matchup analysis and any other info.

-rob

So far my experience has been:

Bad:
Belcher, Tes, and other faster decks. Blue decks that also run Discard and Hymn. I HATE Hymn. These decks usually also have the -/- for tokens too. Czech Pile is likely the culprit.
Plan here is to basically race. I find I can often race, but sometimes need to hail mary it and whiff where other decks may not.

Medium:
Blue decks that DON'T run discard and Hymn. I HATE Hymn. Burn if you're not careful. Be mindful of Fireblast.
Plan here is usually just to play around stuff. Flusterstorm hurts this deck WAY less than it hurts other storm decks due to the over abundance of mana we generate.

Good:
Everything else? Chalice/Thalia/Thorn taxes usually don't matter against Ruby/Helm. We dodge a lot of SB hate that is used for storm usually.

[mistercakes]

thanks, i'll try to get some more in-depth matchups instead of generalizing. looking to eventually get this to established decks once we can put up some results in a big tourney.

also if you have such a large issue with hymn decks, you should consider running more past in flames.

[CabalTherapy]

thanks, i'll try to get some more in-depth matchups instead of generalizing. looking to eventually get this to established decks once we can put up some results in a big tourney.

also if you have such a large issue with hymn decks, you should consider running more past in flames.

Yes.
Only from looking at the deck I am sure that Hymn to Tourach is not a big problem for it. You guys play three PiFs + BW and AoI become good value engines with Medallion in play.
I wouldn't want to tap out on turn 2 or 3 to play a Hymn in, let's say, BUG Delver and much rather opt to find Leovold/Clique or simply hold up mana with a DRS in play. That is why I like the
Bolts because they keep DRS away and the graveyard intact negating the impact of random Hymns; much like old UR Modern storm that was able to win with one card and an active
Ascension, I see similar potential here.

[compacta_d]

thanks, i'll try to get some more in-depth matchups instead of generalizing. looking to eventually get this to established decks once we can put up some results in a big tourney.

also if you have such a large issue with hymn decks, you should consider running more past in flames.

usually the same deck with counters and DRS's.

I can also run more Reforge the soul and draw a new 7. It's usually the counter backup and Surgicals that come after the discard spells that wreck me. Hymns are the catalyst though.

edit- I WILL add that the version of the deck i got wrecked MORE by hymns WAS the 3xPIF + 3xRTS version.

[Mr. Safety]

i don't know what "non-wish sideboard flexibility is". i don't think i'll be playing any non-led version of the list any time soon. if the version you play works for you that's fine.

Slots in the main/side that Don't require BW.

[mistercakes]

usually the same deck with counters and DRS's.

I can also run more Reforge the soul and draw a new 7. It's usually the counter backup and Surgicals that come after the discard spells that wreck me. Hymns are the catalyst though.

edit- I WILL add that the version of the deck i got wrecked MORE by hymns WAS the 3xPIF + 3xRTS version.

what are you running these days?

[compacta_d]

what are you running these days?



2 helm
3 ruby
3 ancient tomb
4 fetches
6 mountains
4 led
4 petal
4 Act
4 seething
4 rite of flame
4 wish
2 reforge
2 mizzix's
1 PIF
4 faithless looting
4 manamoprhose
4 probe
1 tendrils

sb

by force
flame slash
2 pyroblast
abrade
empty
mizzix
pif
slaughter games
tendrils
cave in
reforge
3 defense grids

[Mr. Safety]

Testing Shreds...really like what it does. It can easily sub in for Pif in a pinch, it's just straight gas. Gamble I feel is no longer necessary, and I cut down to 2 etw to fit in 2 copies.

I looped shreds with aoi and seething song, ended up drawing 6 extra cards with aoi, which fed me a land drop, lotus petal, pif, and burning wish. Really solid tech here, and I think it does an admirable job of replacing Reforge maindeck.

[mistercakes]

Yea overall shreds is useful, it does need a rock in play for it to be good, otherwise with a seething song you net - 1 mana.

Compacta, thanks for the list. My only main concern with your list is its rather cold to a turn 2 Leovold. It's not unbeatable, but quite difficult if they know what they're doing. You can still steal games vs baddies.

It's nice that you have your own build, I'm a little hesitant to run only ten initial sources (excluding petals).

Hopefully I'll be able to get some practice in. I think I'll be going to eternal weekend in Paris. It's a bit cheaper than the UK grand prix and less a logistical nightmare.

[compacta_d]

Yea overall shreds is useful, it does need a rock in play for it to be good, otherwise with a seething song you net - 1 mana.

Compacta, thanks for the list. My only main concern with your list is its rather cold to a turn 2 Leovold. It's not unbeatable, but quite difficult if they know what they're doing. You can still steal games vs baddies.

It's nice that you have your own build, I'm a little hesitant to run only ten initial sources (excluding petals).

Hopefully I'll be able to get some practice in. I think I'll be going to eternal weekend in Paris. It's a bit cheaper than the UK grand prix and less a logistical nightmare.

Oh that is why I dropped a tomb for a mountain. It's been a balance of red.

Faithless looting helps smooth things out actually.

leovold is probably the worst thing for this deck overall. Act on Impulse gets around it obviously, and reforge isn't 100% necessary. SB kill slots help.

Reforge also works as a discard spell. Probe, see Leo, go into reforge to make them ditch it, even if you don't combo that turn.

BUG packing abrupt decay, DRS, Leo, -/- effects, counterspells, and hymn is the hardest matchup. I played your original list at EW and got wrecked by that specifically. Czech pile as well as straight up bug control.

Flame slash, Pyroblast, and Abrade out of the SB are for Leo almost specifically.

Mr. Safety- if you like Shreds, try Mizzix's mastery ;)

[Mr. Safety]

I have made a few small adjustments to my list, mostly because Shreds was only giving me a sorcery most of the time. The adjustments are really not significant, other than I think overall it makes the deck better. In short: -1 SSG, -1 Shreds of Sanity, +2 Desperate Ritual. So that leaves one Shreds, which I feel is better than the singleton Gamble I was playing. The DRituals are better during the storm turn (I was leaning on SSG to occasionally get me a t1 Ruby/Helm.)

So my new list goes like this, and I'm actually really pleased with it so far.

4x Rite of Flame
4x Seething Song
3x Desperate Ritual
4x Manamorphose
4x Lotus Petal

4x Ruby Medallion
1x Helm of Awakening

4x Burning Wish
3x Past in Flames
1x Hazoret's Undying Fury
2x Empty the Warrens

4x Gitaxian Probe
3x Overmaster
4x Act on Impulse
1x Shreds of Sanity

10x Mountain
4x Crystal Vein

Sideboard
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Grapeshot
1x Past in Flames
1x Goblin War Strike
1x Reforge the Soul
1x By Force
1x Cave-In (this might become Pyroclasm, empty-handed its better)
2x Blood Moon
2x Scab-Clan Berserker
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Guttersnipe

Debating on sideboard Pyroblasts again, just because I'm not sure how good the singletons of Bridge/Crypt/Guttersnipe are now that Gamble is out of the mix. Flame Slash seems tech as well, just because I need a way to handle Leovold.

[mistercakes]

the one major case that i think is relevant is that pyroclasm can kill gaddock teeg, and cave-in cannot. other than that it makes not much difference. if you have a guttersnipe in play, then burning wish for cave-in is 6 damage total. could be helpful. also if no ruby in play, cave-in is actually 2 mana cheaper, this might be the difference between dying vs a storm deck that's made a bunch of goblins and your hand is kind of still shaping up, or maybe it got therapied like crazy.

[Mr. Safety]

I was playing against a deck playing Liliana of the Veil and I was down to one card a turn. I top-decked a Burning Wish, which could have wiped out a Dark Confidant and Deathrite Shaman with Pyroclasm...but I didn't have enough mana, nor did I have a red card to pitch to Cave-In. It's a corner case, but I could see Pyroclasm being better simply because it will always cost 1R or R. Cave-In will always cost a red card in hand or 3-5 mana. Again, corner case, but I could see it being relevant against some decks.

Against Storm it would better with Cave-In of course, but again, my point was that pyroclasm is better empty handed.

[mistercakes]

Just run one of each.

my latest build is running both. on the primer.

[Mr. Safety]

Just run one of each.

my latest build is running both. on the primer.

That's probably correct. I'm having trouble stuffing everything into the board is all. I think some of the singletons can go, like Bridge. Without a lot of real tournament experience it might be correct to drop the Blood Moons, not sure.

Sideboard could look like this (want to get a Flame Slash in there as well):

1x Tendrils
1x EtW
1x Pif
1x Grapeshot
1x War Strike
1x Reforge
1x By Force
1x Cave-In
1x Pyroclasm
1x Flame Slash
2x Scab-Clan Berserker
3x metagame guesses (TCrypt, Blood Moon, Pyroblast, EBridge)

Cool new primer BTW. I wasn't surprised at Guttersnipe...but I was surprised with Lightning Bolt. I wasn't sure it was really worth the slots, but apparently Deathrite Shaman is a real issue. Also, it would probably be a nice (but not totally necessary) addition to say that without LED players can still build it with additional Rituals/SSG/Helm of Awakening. Budget versions are much more reliant on Empty the Warrens, and are in general about 1/2 a turn slower.

[mistercakes]

Also if you can kill their clock, it's quite valuable as this deck gets quite nasty if you have seen 12+ cards.

It also kills Leovold, which can be a real pain point.

[ReAnimator]

In the debate between Mizzium Mortars, Bolt, Flame Slash, etc is cut to ribbons worth a thought? Is it conceivable to burn someone out with it?
I'm guessing not, because if you have that much mana it's probably easier to just find a second burning wish.

http://static.starcitygames.com/sales/cardscans/MTG/AKH/en/nonfoil/CutRibbons.jpg

[mistercakes]

I've come across this card a few times during my gatherer searches. I haven't had the balls to try it. I bet it's fine as. Perhaps I'll try one over one of the bolts. I like that it can kill TKS as well.

[escobert]

Hi, new to the site and deck. I've read through the thread but am still waiting on cards to play.


Wouldn't flame slash be as good as cut/rubbon? With tendrils we don't need ribbon and Flame Slash hits for the same as cut for1 less without medallion.


Also, do you recommend the full playset of guttersnipes? I plan on running two to start with and see how I like him. I love him in Mono Red Storm edh with Zada, Hedron Grinder.

Anyone still playing blood moon in the SB? Seems good vs greedy mana bases but otherwise doesn't really fit the decks game plan.


I plan on running two surgical for by hate, should I run something else as well?


Thanks and can't wait to sleeve this beauty up. Oh, and my pet name for the deck is Burning Tide.

[mistercakes]

You can read the primer :)

[escobert]

I did read the primer, as I said I've read the entire thread. That's why I'm asking these questions. They aren't mentioned in the primer.

[mistercakes]

Flame slash is mentioned, blood moon isn't really that useful. You can run surgical but Crypt or gravestone is better.

Cut ribbon dodges chalice and provides a win condition, but hasn't been tested. I don't care for slash and would rather run mizzium mortars or nothing. I run 2 bolts right now.

Snipe is mentioned in the primer as well.

[escobert]

Flame slash is mentioned, blood moon isn't really that useful. You can run surgical but Crypt or gravestone is better.

Cut ribbon dodges chalice and provides a win condition, but hasn't been tested. I don't care for slash and would rather run mizzium mortars or nothing. I run 2 bolts right now.

Snipe is mentioned in the primer as well.


That makes sense with chalice and flame slash, and that was my feeling on blood moon as well. Thanks. I really don't like gravestone's symmetrical effect but I could be wrong there and i like that surgical can be used turn 1 on the draw.

I'll probably go up to the full 4 of snipe. He's a beast in my EDH deck which is very similar to this decks game plan.

[mistercakes]

The gravestone ability to turn off DRS, snapcaster and surgical is a big selling point, and stopping reanimate + animate dead is pretty great.

If you have a local meta with lots of storm and reanimator, play Crypt. It's better off of act on impulse.

[Manroe]

I know that it should never get to this point but sometimes games tend to get grindy; this deck can't beat a chalice on 2 right?

[escobert]

The gravestone ability to turn off DRS, snapcaster and surgical is a big selling point, and stopping reanimate + animate dead is pretty great.


Ah, yup you sold me. I'm guessing the activation never/rarely will get used and PiF doesn't target so we don't care about it bbeing symmetrical.

[mistercakes]

But vs Storm as far as sb goes you're all in on berserker and keep in mind it doesn't stop exhume.

[ahg113]

I know that it should never get to this point but sometimes games tend to get grindy; this deck can't beat a chalice on 2 right?

It's difficult to beat multiple chalices, but beating a single chalice is doable. On 2 chalice, cuts off burning wish, manamorphose, but many of the other spells still work, primarily petals, rites, seething- both in-deck win-cons are four, EtW or ToA.

[mistercakes]

Guttersnipe can get there. Pretty easily. After sb if you're really afraid of chalice on 2 then you can play some other artifact removal. I'm not terribly worried about it as it costs 4 mana and I can still win through snipe.

[Mr. Safety]

Chalice on 2 isn't an auto-loss, not by a long shot, as long as you have access to at least 1 maindeck Empty the Warrens. The spells are countered, but still count towards storm count. Guttersnipe is my next test maindeck, I finally picked up a set, and that is also a way to win through Chalice at 2. Just play your Magma Jets (sans scry) and dome them over several turns.

Is Blood Moon de-facto not worth slots to anyone? Am I the only one still playing them in the board? Playing against Czech Pile and Bug Leovold a t1 Blood Moon is game over. Against many other decks its good, but not great. Maybe this is where I finally cut those for other hate cards?

[mistercakes]

Chalice on 2 isn't an auto-loss, not by a long shot, as long as you have access to at least 1 maindeck Empty the Warrens. The spells are countered, but still count towards storm count. Guttersnipe is my next test maindeck, I finally picked up a set, and that is also a way to win through Chalice at 2. Just play your Magma Jets (sans scry) and dome them over several turns.

Is Blood Moon de-facto not worth slots to anyone? Am I the only one still playing them in the board? Playing against Czech Pile and Bug Leovold a t1 Blood Moon is game over. Against many other decks its good, but not great. Maybe this is where I finally cut those for other hate cards?

if you're running guttersnipe, chalice for 2 stops burning wish, ruby, and manamorphose. possibly abrade after sb as well. you should be able to kill them with 2 damage pings. you can also side in the grapeshot if you fear this, as the storm copies will hit regardless.

i dont like blood moon in the sb, but if you have a high % meta of 4c decks and lands decks then i see no problem with running blood moon. across most of the field i dont think the payoff is worth it. i'd focus on just making the deck better in general (ignore me with my random coin flipping card, i'm just having fun with that). or you can focus on the decks that are a bit more difficult (like ANT/TES/Reanimator), as they fall over to hate cards much more easily than the grindy matchups.

also if you have a meta full of elves players feel free to take an auto win by sleeving up your Ali from Cairo

[Mr. Safety]

My experience with non-Eldrazi stompy decks is that you have plenty of time to burn them out with Guttersnipe, not to mention the soonest they can have Chalice@2 is likely turn 2. So we win t1, lol. Stompy decks are going to put Chalice @1 99.99% of the time anyways, they usually play a healthy amount of 2 drops as well.

I think siding different cards than Blood Moon is a good idea to test. There's plenty of options that could be good.

[mistercakes]

i'd like to test out pyromancer ascension again in this deck


4 Ruby Medallion
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose

4 Act on Impulse
4 Burning Wish
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Past in Flames
4 Pyromancer Ascension
3 Lightning Bolt

12 Mountain
3 City of Traitors

the sb could have a dark petition, which wish -> petition with an active ascension should be a guaranteed win.

assume ascension active in play:

cast Burning Wish getting Dark Petition and Past in Flames. Cast DP (BBBBBB remaining). Get Lotus Petal + LED. Cast PiF. (BBBRRR after LED post PiF) Cast Dark Petition again, Getting BBBBBB. Fetch up Manamorphose + BW. play both. Cast Burning Wish. Get Tendrils + Anything. (this is without a medallion).

Just a thought. I'm also pretty interested in casting Act on Impulse with an active Pyromancer Ascension. Anyone else interested in testing this?

[Mr. Safety]

i'd like to test out pyromancer ascension again in this deck


4 Ruby Medallion
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose

4 Act on Impulse
4 Burning Wish
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Past in Flames
4 Pyromancer Ascension
3 Lightning Bolt

12 Mountain
3 City of Traitors

the sb could have a dark petition, which wish -> petition with an active ascension should be a guaranteed win.

assume ascension active in play:

cast Burning Wish getting Dark Petition and Past in Flames. Cast DP (BBBBBB remaining). Get Lotus Petal + LED. Cast PiF. (BBBRRR after LED post PiF) Cast Dark Petition again, Getting BBBBBB. Fetch up Manamorphose + BW. play both. Cast Burning Wish. Get Tendrils + Anything. (this is without a medallion).

Just a thought. I'm also pretty interested in casting Act on Impulse with an active Pyromancer Ascension. Anyone else interested in testing this?

It seems like a slower path, honestly. Broken, yes, but slow while making opponent's Abrupt Decays live. When do you expect to have Pyromancer's Ascension active? Turn 3 is challenging, more likely it's turn 4. I think you would have to play some sort of filtering card like Faithless Looting.

[mistercakes]

well, abrupt decay is already somewhat active vs the ruby medallion. i'm not sure how often you are winning turn 1/2, but turn 3/4/5 is very common for this deck. faithless looting is probably a bit helpful there. maybe i'll have to just run 2 looting over 2 ascension, as it will just be a secondary plan. there's also a possibility it could just be a 1 off. you never really want to see the card in multiples, but would be great whenever you do draw it.

anyway, i'll do some goldfishing today and see how it turns up. i'll start with 3 ascension and 4 bolt and work from there.

[compacta_d]

Haven't checked in in a while.

Mistercakes is probably right about Morters. Also I think I want more cards that begin with "Mizz" (joke). Been playing slivers over this deck. After Feb 10, I'll return, add win percentages to see which deck I play in Seattle.

Chalice on 2 is fine. You'll likely already have a Helm/Ruby at that point, so it would only counter Wish/Morphose/future rubys. Desperate Ritual if you are playing that. Regardless of version it doesn't turn off much as our CMC is much higher than normal storm.
They would need to have chalice on 0,1,2 and maybe 3 then MAYBE I'd feel hopeless. If you are worried about it, Abrade, By Force, Shattering Spree are all there.

Overall this deck dodges things that normal storm would be wrecked by. However QUANTITY of things will still definitely wreck it. I have won post multiple Surgicals, because it usually targets WIsh and PIF and this deck can just draw the entire deck into Tendrils.

Pyromancer's sounds interesting, and I would love to see it with some faithless and reforge, but I still think I like Mizzix's Mastery. Enough discard will definitely fill the yard, but 6 mana->cast entire graveyard for free is usually my version of that.

I do think be easy on newcomer's as there are basically 3 versions of the deck floating around the thread and it's confusing with the conversations we have. We contradict the primer a lot with different ideas and new cards.

[Mr. Safety]

well, abrupt decay is already somewhat active vs the ruby medallion. i'm not sure how often you are winning turn 1/2, but turn 3/4/5 is very common for this deck. faithless looting is probably a bit helpful there. maybe i'll have to just run 2 looting over 2 ascension, as it will just be a secondary plan. there's also a possibility it could just be a 1 off. you never really want to see the card in multiples, but would be great whenever you do draw it.

anyway, i'll do some goldfishing today and see how it turns up. i'll start with 3 ascension and 4 bolt and work from there.

Bolt certainly helps. Flashing back even 2 Bolts that get doubled is 12 damage by itself.

Regarding Decay: it does slow us down with Ruby, but it does not in any way shut off the combo. Killing Ascension is almost guaranteed to slow us down much more significantly because of your investment in setting it up. You have to dedicate slots like Lightning Bolt to make it good, where Guttersnipe (the closest analogy) is much better on the surface for providing an alternative path to victory.

[Mr. Safety]

Pyromancer's sounds interesting, and I would love to see it with some faithless and reforge, but I still think I like Mizzix's Mastery. Enough discard will definitely fill the yard, but 6 mana->cast entire graveyard for free is usually my version of that.

I agree, maximizing Faithless and Reforge is the way to make Ascension work. The problem is that Faithless is inherent card disadvantage and sets us up to get blown out by Deathrite Shaman. Abrupt Decay kills ascension. Reforge feeds them Forces/Flusterstorms/Abrupt Decays. It's the same old problem: non-blue deck matchups are significantly improved by Looting/Reforge, blue decks are significantly worsened with those same cards.


I do think be easy on newcomer's as there are basically 3 versions of the deck floating around the thread and it's confusing with the conversations we have. We contradict the primer a lot with different ideas and new cards.

I think a spot in the primer should have the significantly different versions listed, and categorized as such:

LED Versions
Non-LED Versions

The other really different point is whether to play Guttersnipe or not. I think we're getting closer to a consensus on that (it's good!) so that probably won't be a sticking point. Invariably with a quirky deck like this it will be different for every player trying to develop it. Maybe just pointing out the biggest divisions (LED, Guttersnipe) would clean up the confusion.

Everybody is trying janky shit in almost every deck thread. It's in the community's nature to tweak, change, alter these decks to fit our meta-game and style. We need to recognize that and not see it as a contradiction per se, just personal preference.

[mistercakes]

let's put up some results in a big tourney before it's completely settled. i'm fairly confident that the LED version is more optimal. there's just a bit too much synergy with burning wish, pif, and act on impulse. anywho.

i honestly just haven't the time to play. i've probably passed on 5+ mkm series tournaments since i've started this thread, maybe more. i haven't even had time to play modo since july.

Just wanted to mention that the list on the primer is more or less what I'll actually run next time I play. I just like tinkering too much if I have the chance to goldfish. Realistically you want to be an interactive deck that can win in the early turns but also engage properly. I think faithless has a hard time doing that as it's card disadvantage. Vs a non blue deck it's good, but it can be rough. Obviously it's good with the draw 7, but we should also be aware of the amount of Leovold and chalice decks. We should at least he able to go even with the grixis 4c decks (pile and delver). After that pick your chalice deck of choice and test against that.

When that is done playtest vs miracles, and then do some sneak and show matchups. After that many of the matchups are pretty open.

The primer is designed for an open meta. Local meta can allow for whatever, that's up to the user to browse through the thread.

[compacta_d]

It's not as though I don't test my ideas.

I went 6-5 with the list that had 3 reforge, 3 empties and 3 past in flames at EW. Of those 5 losses I think at least 3 were lost due to answers to goblin tokens. I could recheck my notes, but Marsh Casualties, Toxic Deluge, and Pernicious Deed were the most memorable answers. The more you rely on Empty the Warrens, the more likely you are to get blown out by Leovold decks, including Nic Fit, which isn't where you want to be.

I've been slowly testing each card 1 at a time until NYE where I swapped to slivers to practice for Seattle.

I play 2 small events a week, ranging from 8-24 ish players depending on the event and week. The list I had currently is the one I did great with 3 weeks straight, 6 events either 4-0 or 3-1. From Oct-Jan it was the deck I ran so 24ish events with it. I've probably played every version of the list you all post, EXCEPT the goblin lore one. Haven't picked those up yet.

Faithless Looting costs a card yes. Regardless of which version you play, HUF, PIF, RTS, AOI all make up for the -1 card. Even Shreds of Sanity. It also adds to storm, works out of yard, gets reduced by Rubys, and fixes hands to go off on turn 2 more times.

I think the only reason to not play an LED version is if you do not have LEDS, which is perfectly reasonable. It's mostly a budget deck anyway. I do think it does the empty plan better than belcher. Belcher does the belcher plan better than this deck.

Blue decks are Blue decks. all combo decks are going to have the same "weakness" to blue decks (except maybe dredge). I think more exposure to them will numb you to it and allow you play around it. I am more worried about RTS versus Burn than I am a Blue deck. Ruby Storm has MORE play versus the blue decks than normal storm variants IMO. The more big spells in the deck, the more you can just rip them and cast like eldrazi. We can literally just pay for Flusterstorm when storm is 25 and we have over 20 red mana. Defense Grid works very well with Reforge to also prevent things like Mindbreak Trap. It's also just good at stopping interaction with the combo. They have to counter it, use the counter, or not get to counter anything else.

We also have access to pyroblast. Can run 4. counters/counters and kill leovolds.

Yes, absolutely tune to your meta, but it isn't as though my meta isn't full of leo/blue decks and chalice decks. Red has answers to all these things.

[mistercakes]

all valid points. i'd have to have some longer testing sessions vs the control decks using defense grid. if you cast grid and pass the turn there's a very good chance it's getting decayed or commanded.

the reforge version tends to play a turn faster.

regarding the LED's. if you can't afford them, then that's what it is. you can play dredge without LED's and still get by as well, but i wouldn't say that this is a good version of the deck. everyone is prepared for the 1/1's. it also takes rollover hate that needs to deal with TNN, young pyromancer, other storm decks, death and taxes, etc.

glad to hear you've tested a lot.

the other combo (ant/tes) run a full suite of discard and that's how they get to interact. (to a lesser extent, ANT also can just overpower control decks with past in flames as well). we don't have that luxury and we also don't generally have a maindeck answer to leovold. (i also understand that most of the games are decided post board).

i'm pretty comfortable playing combo decks in general. i've played pretty much every combo deck available since 1998, so i'm aware of how to manage blue players. it's more of an understanding to my outs.

from when i was playing on modo in the summer, the blue players tended to be better on average than the ones you would play irl. at weeklies most players tend to be bad to above average. there's a chance you'll hit that same kind of caliber player in a larger tournament, but the grinders and serious players are also there. those players also tend to play blue more than other variants. those are the people i'm gunning for when i'm working on lists.

i enjoy drawing 7 cards as much as the next guy, and when i played in the weeklies they were fine. i'm not confident in those lists in terms of bringing it to a 7+ round event. it's not to say that the other versions are bad, this deck has some rough patches, as we can't really manipulate the deck very well. (faithless looting being some of the best red can offer, which isn't much compared to what the other decks in the format are doing.)

my hope is that all of this is for nothing, and that we will get a nice gift in the next few sets. (might take another year, but am looking forward to it. i mentioned this before: ANT and TES and to a lesser extent DDFT all have optimized themselves. they do run 2+ preordains sometimes, but that's about it in terms of what gets shifted around. this deck has a lot of opportunity to tinker and get better.

as soon as we can put up some results with a reasonably sized tournament, i'm happy to update the primer with lists.

[GAMEster52]

hey guys this my first post in this forum. anyhow i read the thread from time to time since a half year now. i started playing the deck in paper around the same time and since three weeks i also play it online. i always tested lots of the stuff that was mentioned here, like: Guttersnipe, Shreds of Sanity, Magma Jet, Gamble, overcome, mizzix mastery... and other stuff that i wanted to try (warping wail, reverberate, blood sun). the list i am actually playing feels pretty right to me and led me to my best results so far... would be nice to hear your opinion.

---
Mainboard

4 Ruby Medallion
2 Helm of Awakening

4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose

2 Faithless Looting
4 Act on Impulse
1 Hazoreths undying Fury
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 Burning Wish
2 Past in Flames

2 Empty the Warrens
1 Abrade

10 Mountain
3 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors

---
Sideboard

Empty the Warrens
Tendrils of Agony
Goblin War Strike
Reforge the Soul
Past in Flames

Grapeshot
Cave-In
By Force

2 Abrade
3 Defensive Grid
2 Blood Moon

---
i have to say i am not caring much about graveyard hate because mostly when i played against reanimator i just went lucky. but its rarely played in my meta. because of the defensive grids and the higher chance of an early blood moon i like playing four sol lands instead of three.
i also think that the two faithless looting are really good cards because they make me keep hands that i otherwise have to mulligan. i can discard lands, get faster through the deck etc.

thanks to all of you that put so many good ideas into this. i really like the deck!

[mistercakes]

glad to hear it. let us know of your results if you play in anything big or are able to do some extensive testing vs any decklist. will add any extensive matchup analysis to the primer.

-rob

[mistercakes]

been messing around with goldfishing (no time for actual matches recently) and this one has been rather fun. i haven't messed around with commune since the summer, so it's nice to see how the deck has adapted since then. (more faith in act on impulse, and the probes/led's are fully committed)

// 60 Maindeck
// 12
12 Mountain

// 15 Artifact
3 Helm of Awakening
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

// 14 Instant
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
4 Commune with Lava

// 2 Land
2 Ancient Tomb

// 19 Sorcery
4 Act on Impulse
4 Rite of Flame
4 Burning Wish
3 Past in Flames
4 Gitaxian Probe

// 6 Sideboard
// 6 Sorcery
SB: 1 By Force
SB: 1 Mizzix's Mastery
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Reforge the Soul
SB: 1 Past in Flames

it's a bit slower (as you mostly want to go off on turn 3/4), but it's more resilient to leovold and you get to cast commune on their turn, which is a nice change.

[escobert]

been messing around with goldfishing (no time for actual matches recently) and this one has been rather fun. i haven't messed around with commune since the summer, so it's nice to see how the deck has adapted since then. (more faith in act on impulse, and the probes/led's are fully committed)

// 60 Maindeck
// 12
12 Mountain

// 15 Artifact
3 Helm of Awakening
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

// 14 Instant
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
4 Commune with Lava

// 2 Land
2 Ancient Tomb

// 19 Sorcery
4 Act on Impulse
4 Rite of Flame
4 Burning Wish
3 Past in Flames
4 Gitaxian Probe

// 6 Sideboard
// 6 Sorcery
SB: 1 By Force
SB: 1 Mizzix's Mastery
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Reforge the Soul
SB: 1 Past in Flames

it's a bit slower (as you mostly want to go off on turn 3/4), but it's more resilient to leovold and you get to cast commune on their turn, which is a nice change.

I do really like Commune in the goldfishing I've done with the deck. I'm only playing 2 copies currently. I don't however like relying on Wish targets to win. I think at least 1 MB 1 win-con is a must since Surgical Extraction is a card that gets used in almost any deck. If Wish gets extracted then it's game over.

[mistercakes]

i don't mind getting surgical extracted game 1. if they are running it maindeck, then that's just a bad beat for me. after sb i'll probably have some guttersnipes, but haven't fleshed it out much.

[escobert]

Very true, I just prefer to have one MB so I don't have to worry about siding one in games 2&3 and just in case.

Oh, and this is the list I'm currently working with:

MB:
4x Act on Impulse (M15)
2x Ancient Tomb (TMP)
4x Burning Wish (CN2)
2x Commune with Lava (DTK)
2x Desperate Ritual (CHK)
1x Empty the Warrens (TSP)
4x Gitaxian Probe (NPH)
2x Lightning Bolt (AC2)
4x Lion's Eye Diamond (MIR)
4x Lotus Petal (TMP)
4x Manamorphose (SHM)
12x Mountain (TMP)
3x Past in Flames (MM3)
4x Rite of Flame (CSP)
4x Ruby Medallion (TMP)
4x Seething Song (MRD)

SB:
2x Defense Grid (ULG)
1x Gamble (USG)
1x Goblin War Strike (SCG)
1x Mizzium Mortars (RTR)
1x Past in Flames (MM3)
1x Pyroclasm (DDK)
1x Reforge the Soul (AVR)
2x Scab-Clan Berserker (ORI)
1x Shattering Spree (GPT)
2x Silent Gravestone (RIX)
1x Surgical Extraction (NPH)
1x Tendrils of Agony (SCG)

[mistercakes]

cool it's pretty close to what i've been testing. lemme know how it goes if you play it anywhere. i've felt like i wanted more rocks for this version, as X for commune actually increases for each rock in play. 3 rocks + RR = 3 cards.

[escobert]

Yeah, I've definatly seen where multiple reducers can really make Commune go. I dunno what I'd drop for it though. Maybe 2 LEDs, as I find I cast them more for storm count than anything. But, any time I think about dropping them I goldfish a game where they were needed for the black mana with Tendrils.


EDIT: Also, without Guttersnipe I'm not really liking the MB bolts as much. I may go with 2 more desperate rituals. But, I'm going to wait until I play some real matches to determine that. I've got about half the deck sleeved up and all but 6 cards (2 Medallions, 1 commune with Lava, 2 Bolts and 1 Ancient Tomb) in the mail to me.

[mistercakes]

The bolts are good, but guttersnipe is definitely a better card for the deck. Before filling the deck with more rituals it might make sense to play 1/2/3 snipes.

Right now I'm on 7 rocks, but realistically it could. Be 5 or 6 and 1/2 snipes respectively.

The bolts would be best in a high delver/dnt/pile meta.

[Knighthawk]

Wow, I love the look of the updated first post. Treating Guttersnipe and the Ruby's in a similar fashion is a great idea. I see that it also reduces the number of seemingly random (but not random) 1ofs in the main. (Gamble/shreds/helm etc) I really need to get more practice in with the deck instead of looking at it longingly.

I'm glad to see there were updates with commune with lava, was going to ask the other day before I forgot.
It's been awhile since I read the entire thread, but what was the consensus on bedlam reveler as a potential draw 3? Seeing mardu pyromancer in modern just led me to wondering. I'll guess likely not, but wanted to double check to be sure it was covered.

Edit: While Ali from Cairo has some definite style points, there is a likely much cheaper alternative in Fortune Thief, just costs 1 more. However, how does it stop elves as a free win? It'll stop crater hoof stuff, but a single Deathrite activation afterwards is game over isn't it? (A dear friend and elves expert will occasionally use Elder scale Wurm to blow out some players in a similar fashion and we'd regularly discuss how to get around it.)

[mistercakes]

ali says anything that would reduce your life to less than 1 reduces it to 1. i imagine that should stop them from killing you. fortune thief is the same. they have no ways of killing a 4cc creature in their 75. (unless if i'm reading something wrong on the rules text).

i'm still not convinced that commune is the best version, but it's definitely one of the more powerful versions that has effects that only are one-sided. it will need more testing, as guttersnipe has already proven itself. haven't had time to test bolt yet, but it's rarely a bad card in mtg as a whole.

[escobert]

ali says anything that would reduce your life to less than 1 reduces it to 1. i imagine that should stop them from killing you. fortune thief is the same. they have no ways of killing a 4cc creature in their 75. (unless if i'm reading something wrong on the rules text).

i'm still not convinced that commune is the best version, but it's definitely one of the more powerful versions that has effects that only are one-sided. it will need more testing, as guttersnipe has already proven itself. haven't had time to test bolt yet, but it's rarely a bad card in mtg as a whole.

My issue with bolt in my guttersnipe-less build is that I always wanted more gas instead of the bolt. But, this was also goldfishing so, that could easily change with an opponent across from me.

[Knighthawk]

From the gatherer on Fortune Thief-
The first ability applies only if your life total is being reduced by damage. Other effects or costs (such as “lose 1 life” or “pay 1 life”) can reduce your life total below 1 as normal
So hoof for a ton then Deathrite to finish the job is my understanding. If they see the play of course.

Also, was totally unaware this existed till now, likely under powered but always good to know.
Crash Through
R Sorcery
Creatures you control gain trample til end of turn.
Draw a Card.

So R draw a card that doesn't actually need a target to cast. Could be something if that's an effect someone was looking for.

[mistercakes]

ah crap. yea that's right.

if you're looking for R cantrip, just play overmaster. i'm not really on board with that plan.

[Mr. Safety]

I like Guttersnipe for making shorter storm chains lethal with BW > Grapeshot. I will be cutting 1x Helm and 2x Warrens (1 maindeck ETW still) to get 3 copies of Snipe in.

I'm still on the Overmaster plan...playing 3 main. I know mistercakes is opposed to it, but I haven't been disappointed yet.

[escobert]

My biggest concern with Guttersnipe is he's a 3 mana 2/2 that doesn't dodge any removal in the format. I do think he plays well with the deck but, it's not like the deck has issues getting to a 10 storm count for empty or tendrils.


In my testing with him in the list, I was able to do some fun stuff but I just think he's too susceptible to removal.

[Mr. Safety]

Maybe sideboard material then, but others have said he has done really well. I don't think we cast him unless we plan on winning the same turn, and he is typically 2 mana with a reducer.

[mistercakes]

I didn't play guttersnipe for a very long time. After playing it in two weeklies, the little guy is actually very good. Even if he eats a removal spell.

[escobert]

I didn't play guttersnipe for a very long time. After playing it in two weeklies, the little guy is actually very good. Even if he eats a removal spell.

Oh I don't doubt he puts in work, I think he's better in a non-LED version that runs grapeshot though. I use him and his little sister Firebrand Archer in my mono red storm EDH deck. I just prefer the creature-less route with this deck.

[mistercakes]

It's honestly fine in any version. Unfortunately, you have to play actual matches with the deck to see it. It's one of those cards that looks bad on paper, and then turns out great. (eg. Tarmogoyf, gurmag angler, arcbound ravager)

[ahg113]

Played in a $2k Saturday 2/3/2018 @ Top Deck Games, NJ, monthly event, 39 people, 6 rds cut to T8

Overall, finished with a record of 3-3. One of those wins was on paper cause my opponent wanted to go hang with his gf, so he dropped. One of those loses was because I forgot to desideboard, and called myself out on it. I would've won that g1*, and did win g2, lost g3. So, karma balanced, record balanced, some good and bad things. The list I played (was missing the 3rd PiF in MD, replaced with RtS, who'd think PiF was a hard card to find between 3 LGS the night before.)-

// Legacy - Ruby Storm-L.Bolt/snipe

// 60 Maindeck
// 12 Artifact
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

// 4 Creature
4 Guttersnipe

// 10 Instant
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
2 Lightning Bolt

// 14 Land
11 Mountain
3 Ancient Tomb

// 20 Sorcery
4 Rite of Flame
4 Act on Impulse
4 Burning Wish
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Reforge the Soul


// 15 Sideboard
// 2 Artifact
SB: 2 Silent Gravestone

// 2 Creature
SB: 2 Scab-Clan Berserker

// 11 Sorcery
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Reforge the Soul
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 By Force
SB: 1 Cave-In
SB: 1 Mizzium Mortars
SB: 1 Telemin Performance
SB: 1 Mizzix's Mastery
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Sowing Salt


M1 - Jack - ANT
G1 - I played, t2 killed. A probe t1, then AdN down to 4, lots and lots of Tendrils copies.
G2 - I played, mull to 6. First note is that I should've mullled from 6 to 5, it was the same 6, minus a petal from the 1st 7, and a petal was the first draw. The shuffler is the devil, it is known. He fizzled on turn 2 (storm > 11, had bounced my Scab-Clan, AdN down to 5, then g.probe to 3), had revealed the wrong card on Infernal Tutor. My turn 3 I recast Scab-Clan, and he would've died upon resolution. He punted, but I'll take that fair catch.
G3 - He played, both mull to 6. Turn 2, lots of storm, AdN down to 8, was never in this game. Can't remember if I had a Scab-Clan in hand or not.
(0-1, 1-2)

M2 - Noah - BUG Food Chain
G1 - He doesn't really do much. I snap bolted a first turn DRS. On my t4 I storm for 10 Goblins, he had made a strix or two. Right before the game ended, he cast an Eternal Scourge with a Food Chain out, basically untapped it. But too little, too late.
G2 - Got there by t4, on the back of Guttersnipe. On my turn 2 I was able to ping 3 with three spells, for 5 triggers (an AoI exiled another Snipe.) A few turns not drawing anything that would draw spells, just sat there and waited, casting another Snipe. One spell with 3 triggers drops him to 2, then a bolt the next turn would be -7. He never really got going in this game, was kind of a passenger. He cast a V.Clique, and my one card in hand was a mountain I decided not to play.
(1-1, 3-2)

M3 - Ed - RG Lands
G1 - He played, I mulled to 5. Died so fast, not many notes. He dredged into DD with loam, and I died shortly there after.
G2 - I played. I got three Snipe triggers, and then died to DD token again.
Ed decides he wants to bounce after testing some modern proxy deck, so I I get to continue with a win.
(2-1*, 5-3*)

M4 - Zach - ANT
G1 - He played, I mulled to 6. His turn 3, he naturally storms and makes about 12 goblins. He's at 15 after three fetches and a g. probe. My turn, I go yolo, get a Snipe in play, a trigger, have storm at about 5, and flip an AoI with mana in pool, and a BW, and another castable spell, no two black sources for Tendrils, but can likely make about 16 goblins or so. From the AoI, I see a silent gravestone. whomp whomp
G2 - I cast a t2- Scab-Clan, he concedes. After reading the card, and realizing what it does, he makes a face. That face was worth my entry fee, so while not as good as I had hoped, the day was somewhat worthwhile.
G3 - He cast EtW for 12 goblins, I try to dig at 6 life, but couldn't find it, c'est la vie.
(2-2*, 6-5*)

M5 - Ryan - Lands
G1 - I mulled, he played. He doesn't do much, kinda derping. On t4 I win with a storm of ~8+ but using snipe triggers to get him to 4, and an overkill with Tendrils.
G2 - He played. I quick out a Scab, hits, does 2 pings. He doesn't do much, ghosted his own land for a green source. Played a chasm, stopped Scab and a played Snipe. Paid the cost twice, dropping from 14 to 8. Couldn't find any of his combo pieces, I storm out with 3 rocks in play on turn 6 or 7 with Tendrils.
(3-2, 8-5)

M6 - Nick - Miracles
G1 - He played. He has no idea what I'm on, first guests Dragon Storm. Basic mountain pass threw him for a loop. He fetched three times, cast a FoW on Reforge, took a snipe trigger in between. I would've kept with the self-masturbatory nonsense, but the kill is in my gy with Snipe triggers and he concedes. I cast the mana and have it float in pool. I bait him with a Reforge, he counters, then I cast PiF, and cast Reforge anyway. Lots of triggers. It was a fun game.
G2 - He played, I mull to 5. He has the jist now, an early C. Balance counters a Snipe. Never really get in the game with my draws, die to snappy beats slowly. This is funny because he didn't want me to slow play G1, yet he is attacking with a sole Snappy and he has another 2 in hand, and I'm doing nothing. Oh the hypocrisy.
G3 - I play. We go back and forth a bit, he FoW'd an AoI, stops me for that salvo. Lets mana rocks, Gravestone resolve, counters Snipe, Draw. Then, in a moment that might've swung the game in his favor, we were both down to 1 or no cards in hand. He cast perdict, knowing I had an LED on top (Unexpectedly Absent). I had a Silent Gravestone in play, could've used it to draw the LED, limiting his draw from two to one. I later crack the Gravestone in resp to him casting a Wear//Tear. Probably should've cracked it previously. He get's Search for Azcanta flipped, and just pulls away on card draw. By the time he cast Entreat the Angels for 3, non-Miracled, I try to go yolo, but he's got about 5 counterspells in hand. My game is done, I had drawn a bunch of lands.
(3-3, 9-7)

How I felt on the day - mixed results. The Guttersnipes were awesome, always happy to see. They were a wincon, but folks didn't focus on them, too worried about what storm count was, or what might grab with BW, and the Snipes did lots of work. Happy to see rocks, folks usually didn't molest them, maybe a bounce here or there. Typically, I was either super game, or just dead in the water. ANT was just faster, and the lands seemed like a coin flip. In G2 of M3 he durdled a bit, and I could've cast BW for Sowing Salt, but he had a Ghost Quarters that would've blanked it. With loam, a moot point.
Was typically happy with my SB, Scab-Clan is a go, the Gravestones felt way better than T. Crypt. Missed the Defense Grids for that lone Miracles match-up.
Really though, I missed not seeing Act on Impulse. I'm switching in some Commune with Lava on 'Trice to try it. Deck needs more draw, more than just cantrip. Also, 3 PiF feels wrong. There were a few games I had two in hand, that's completely worthless. Even two BW represent more options than just four copies of PiF in two cards. I also coin-flip kept Mizzix in my board rather than Hull Breach. I felt I wanted Breach, but didn't really miss it, maybe against Counterbalance, but that game BW, or the Hull Breach, weren't gonna resolve anyway.

After the game, my 12 Post friend and I played a few no-SB games with our decks and I rolled him. Then we swapped, he floundered at first. After he got use to the need to mulligan, and just to trust the flips with AoI, he started rolling me. He became a hesitant convert, wanted to see more draw spells, Reforge especially.

And not sure where to put this, but I'm mixed on fetches vs. all mountains. Budget reasons, I'm on A.Tomb than City of Traitors. I do like that A.Tomb sticks around, there hasn't been a situation where the two mana from A.Tomb, would have saved the day, but couldn't use because of life loss. Basically, flips with AoI, or Reforge and grabbing a grip that's land heavy, that's sad town. What to do? I like 14 lands, my friend wanted 15 lands.

My match-ups were weird, two ANT, two Lands, Miracles, BUG Food Chain.

What I plan to play with upcoming:
// Legacy - Ruby Storm-Snipe/Commune

// Sideboard a work in progress, Goblin War Strike, Grapeshot, Flame Slash, Mizzium Mortars, Collective Defiance, Fiery Gambit, anger of the gods, Telemin Performance, slaughter games, tormod's crypt, scab-clan berserker

// 60 Maindeck
// 12 Artifact
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

// 3 Creature
3 Guttersnipe

// 11 Instant
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
3 Commune with Lava

// 14 Land
11 Mountain
3 Ancient Tomb

// 20 Sorcery
4 Rite of Flame
4 Act on Impulse
4 Burning Wish
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Reforge the Soul
2 Past in Flames


// 15 Sideboard
// 2 Artifact
SB: 2 Silent Gravestone

// 2 Creature
SB: 2 Scab-Clan Berserker

// 11 Sorcery
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Reforge the Soul
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 By Force
SB: 1 Cave-In
SB: 1 Mizzium Mortars
SB: 1 Telemin Performance
SB: 1 Mizzix's Mastery
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Sowing Salt

[mistercakes]

thanks for the report. great info here. your 75 looks pretty good. haven't tested a maindeck tendrils, i suppose it could be okay. how were the bolts? good to hear about the gravestone, although sometimes crypt can be good vs storm.

the hard part for me is always sticking with 4 ruby and 0 medallion. it's probably correct, and frees up some goodstuff slots. i'll suck it up and go back to the 4. wondering if you would have lost the first game vs food chain without that bolt.

also, sowing salt? purpose here?

[ahg113]

I did like bolt. Don't want four, but as a bit of interaction, disrupt their dudes, reach for the last bit of kill, or an outlet for excess mana, storm count, bolt is a good stuff card on color.

Sowing salt is really corner case against silly stuff like chasm, or the dark depths combo. Not always relevant, but snagging a cloudpost, or an eldrazi temple can really help turn a game if done quickly without waiting for the perfect hand. Can't wait too naturally sculpt your hand a card per turn? Use sowing salt to screw over opponent, a don't lose, instead of, go for win, type selection.

I had tried 3 ruby, 2 stone before, while stone helps with twndrils, other stones, artifact hate, I really hated helping my opponents. Couldn't get overy that hurdle. Now with Commune in deck, may try again, 4r/1h.

[mistercakes]

i guess it depends on your meta, but i'd stay away from the land destruction. tendrils also gets around chasm btw.

i'll try going down to 2 commune with 4 ruby. 4 snipes, 2 bolts, and 2 pif. rest is 4's and lands will be 12 mtn, 2 tomb (tomb is better in the commune build, but i think CoT is better in an aggro metagame).

i think an argument can be made to cut 1 snipe for a 15th land or a singleton helm, the 13th mountain is prob better though if you are playing in 6+ round tourneys.

[mistercakes]

Testing 2 tomb, 2 cot, 12 mtn, 2 snipe, 2 commune, 2 bolt.

Bolts could be other stuff, but I like the versatility.

On the + side, I got to sell two control of the court for 45 euros each.

[Mr. Safety]

I'm about 99% convinced to play this next weekend at a legacy 1k. I have some changes I have been working through, and overall my confidence with the deck has grown considerably since I started with it. Here is my current list, with slots that are flexible for changes. I like Lightning Bolt a lot, will playing 3 maindeck. Guttersnipe in the board for sure. I just need a little help deciding if my sideboard is up to scratch, maindeck is fairly well locked in.

4x Ruby Medallion
4x Rite of Flame
4x Seething Song
4x Lotus Petal
3x Desperate Ritual
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Act on Impulse
4x Manamorphose
1x Shreds of Sanity
3x Past in Flames
1x Hazoret’s Undying Fury
4x Burning Wish
1x Empty the Warrens
2x Overmaster
3x Lightning Bolt
10x Mountain
4x Crystal Vein

Sideboard
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Past in Flames
1x Grapeshot
1x Goblin War Strike
1x Reforge the Soul
1x Pyroclasm
3x Guttersnipe
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Scab-Clan Berserker
1x Ensnaring Bridge

[compacta_d]

Testing 2 tomb, 2 cot, 12 mtn, 2 snipe, 2 commune, 2 bolt.

Bolts could be other stuff, but I like the versatility.

On the + side, I got to sell two control of the court for 45 euros each.

Yeah, after you mentioned them I was gonna buy them for the maybeboard. Maybenot board now. Not worth it for me IMO when the otherstuff is good enough.

went 4-3 at a 70+ person tournament. Beat Mono R sneakx2, Tes, Miracles. Lost to UR delver, Czech, and food chain, which happened to have the super nuts combo speed game 3. Shrug. I also had Super nuts for the following turn though. 5-2 would have prized as well.

the Czech match was rough. Game 1 was thoughtseize, hymn, hymn, fow+blue Fow+blue in that order. With a deathrite in there somewhere.

Game 2 was deathrite, deathrite, deathrite locking me out of PIF and Mizz. Normally doesn't feel that bad, but that match did.

UR delver has just enough disruption and a great clock. I'd add that to bad matchups. I think worse than Grixis Delver possibly, but let you all decide that.

I sided out 1 mizz and brought in 1 PIF to make that change to the main deck. Still have 1 in md and sb though.

In that czech pile matchup there was a time where i faithless looting 5 times in one turn, then next turn topdecked the past in flames. Laugh it off, but mildly tilting. I think the Faithless COULD be Gamble, and actually work very well. Get land when I need it and allow for better PIF chains. Probably more keepable hands as well. usually when I loot I know what I am looking for, and many times it is PIF or Burning Wish, or I have too many redundant cards in hand and no rits. Even getting Rite and pitching it at rando would be good for the next rite. I think the skill required for gamble is more though knowing odds, knowing the patterns and plays, not tilting to the pitch etc.

Think my Sideboard needs some work though. Slaughter Games shined a bit this weekend, but meh. Blood Moon probably still good.

[compacta_d]

My test list would look like"

4 gamble
2 PIF
2 RTS
1 Mizz
2 Helm
3 Ruby
4 LED
4 Petal
4 ROF
4 Seeth
4 probe
4 manamorp
1 tendrils
4 wish
4 AOI

4 Fetch
6 MTN
3 Tomb

SB

1 tendrils
1 empty
1 mizz
1 PIF
1 RTS
1 abrade
1 Mizzium mortars
2 Pyro
3 Defense Grid
probably 2 blood moons
1 Cave-In


Gonna proxy test this with loots as gambles and goldfish it. If I like it I'll pick up the gambles and try it out at my weeklies.

[mistercakes]

I've played 2 gambles in the deck past. It's fine but not always what I want.

[compacta_d]

I've played 2 gambles in the deck past. It's fine but not always what I want.

I should also actually just try dropping the maindeck Reforge and replace with PIF.

that may be the better play, but USUALLY need a burning wish to win the game at some point. Reforge gets there.

I DO think that the specific grouping of cards matter pretty hard for the deck. It allows different lines. Faithless Looting becomes worse when you take out past in flames and mizzix's mastery.

Reforge is worse without the LED's etc. Changes the whole storm flow chart.

Gamble could be good with heavy Past in Flames and Mizzix's how Faithless is. Or maybe -2 RTS +2 PIF -1 mizz +1 gamble

Lots of goldfishing for lines is good. Can't play weeklies EVERYDAY.

[mistercakes]

I'm not sure how you get away with only 14 initial red mana sources. I've goldfished this deck probably more than anyone and I don't think it's correct.

[shimst3r]

Did you test Serum Powder to increase the likelihood of having a Medallion in your opening hand? It gives away what you're playing, but on the other hand it increases consistency.

[mistercakes]

i haven't tested it, but the deck doesn't really need ruby to win. however, you will be significantly favored in the games where you resolve a ruby.

serum is quite clunky otherwise, maybe in a version with 4 helm of awakening. what do you propose the cut is?

[Mr. Safety]

I'm not sure how you get away with only 14 initial red mana sources. I've goldfished this deck probably more than anyone and I don't think it's correct.

10x Mountain + 4x Petal? That's what I'm doing as well. I cut the SSG's completely when I moved over to Shreds of Sanity so I would have more instants to fetch out (another reason for Bolt.) It has worked fine for me, and ironically enough, in the past 4-5 test games I've drawn 3+ lands in my opener.

I am loving Lightning Bolt, to the point that I think Overmaster might need to go away completely to make room for the full set of Bolts. Right now I am 2/2/2 on Bolt/Overmaster/Empty in the maindeck and there are tons of ways to leverage a longer game that way. Killing Deathrite Shamans has been great, and a storm chain of 10 becomes lethal many times with a Bolt in the mix because I can go off leaner and kill with Grapeshot even without a Medallion. With a medallion it becomes a lot easier to go for Tendrils or EtW/War Strike.

My testing recently has me making these observations of the test cards:

-Shreds makes mana rock 5+ really unnecessary, because its a leaner Past in Flames option that can boost mana/storm. Shreds has added on average a 3 storm count and typically ended up with the same mana I started with, so even on mana (sans Medallion.) With Medallion it becomes incredible, and adds 3 storm on average and +2 mana on average. I am completely sold on this as maindeck PiF #4. I haven't tried Mizzix Mastery...but I haven't needed to, Shreds is very good. I also think this completely obfusticates the need for Gamble, which was a fairly low impact card even when it did what I wanted. Some games Gamble is amazing, but most games I didn't draw it at all. Shreds is better as a redundant storm enabler than Gamble, in my humble opinion.

-Lightning Bolt makes Grapeshot kills a lot easier, which makes games without Medallion much smoother. When you can use 1-2 extra mana (not enough to achieve a tendrils kill) to deal 3-6 extra damage that can usually win the game. The removal is very good. I am on the verge of going for the full set, just for early interaction against fair decks and on a slow start. Without the cantrip cartel to smooth the deck out it is really reliant on raw draw power with AoI, Probe, Manamorphose, HuF, and Reforge. Its not a matter of if we will go off, but whether we have enough time to go off. Bolt buys us time and actually speeds up the kill potential by maybe a half-turn. This is pretty big considering I don't have access to LED.

-Guttersnipe does the same as bolt out of the board. It actually speeds the deck up, but at the risk of removal. In my metagame there is a glut of fair decks, many of them blue with plenty of removal like Grixis Delver/Czech pile or Punishing Maverick. Post-board Guttersnipe has been really good at simply pressuring from a different axis. If they don't have an answer to Snipe the longer game gets better because chains of rituals don't need to go anywhere on their own, they are pinging off 2 life every time a short chain happens. Really sold on Guttersnipe out of the board.

-Blood Moon, as much as I love it, just doesn't warrant enough slots. I have enough decks in the metagame Moon-ing people themselves that it is a dead slot. Those slots are going to Snipe. I also forgot that I had a By Force in the board, which I neglected to include in my list further up.

-I had used Helm of Awakening for a long time, without any real effect of enabling opponent's too much. Something had to give for Bolts and I am positive this is a better option, at least I'm convinced for now.

Those are my thoughts right now. Really like Lightning Bolt, it's a little counterintuitive because its not a traditional storm inclusion, but man I should have seen it before. Thanks to mistercakes for selling me on Guttersnipe and Bolts.

[mistercakes]

the guttersnipe is all vieko. (as is LED and probe). damn him.

the bolt is cabaltherapy, vieko and myself.

[Memories of the Time]

I've left Magic for some months due to university, but i'm still following this thread.

I've seen much hate against gamble, but often forgetting one of its best side: the awesome flexibility for reach SB pieces, such as 1x Blood Moon and so on. In my tests, last summer, it has ben incredible, also to increase the possibility of a t2 rock.

[mistercakes]

gamble has been in my maybeboard for quite some time. it's a great card, but haven't felt like using it in a while.

[Manroe]

10x Mountain + 4x Petal? That's what I'm doing as well. I cut the SSG's completely when I moved over to Shreds of Sanity so I would have more instants to fetch out (another reason for Bolt.) It has worked fine for me, and ironically enough, in the past 4-5 test games I've drawn 3+ lands in my opener.

I am loving Lightning Bolt, to the point that I think Overmaster might need to go away completely to make room for the full set of Bolts. Right now I am 2/2/2 on Bolt/Overmaster/Empty in the maindeck and there are tons of ways to leverage a longer game that way. Killing Deathrite Shamans has been great, and a storm chain of 10 becomes lethal many times with a Bolt in the mix because I can go off leaner and kill with Grapeshot even without a Medallion. With a medallion it becomes a lot easier to go for Tendrils or EtW/War Strike.

My testing recently has me making these observations of the test cards:

-Shreds makes mana rock 5+ really unnecessary, because its a leaner Past in Flames option that can boost mana/storm. Shreds has added on average a 3 storm count and typically ended up with the same mana I started with, so even on mana (sans Medallion.) With Medallion it becomes incredible, and adds 3 storm on average and +2 mana on average. I am completely sold on this as maindeck PiF #4. I haven't tried Mizzix Mastery...but I haven't needed to, Shreds is very good. I also think this completely obfusticates the need for Gamble, which was a fairly low impact card even when it did what I wanted. Some games Gamble is amazing, but most games I didn't draw it at all. Shreds is better as a redundant storm enabler than Gamble, in my humble opinion.

-Lightning Bolt makes Grapeshot kills a lot easier, which makes games without Medallion much smoother. When you can use 1-2 extra mana (not enough to achieve a tendrils kill) to deal 3-6 extra damage that can usually win the game. The removal is very good. I am on the verge of going for the full set, just for early interaction against fair decks and on a slow start. Without the cantrip cartel to smooth the deck out it is really reliant on raw draw power with AoI, Probe, Manamorphose, HuF, and Reforge. Its not a matter of if we will go off, but whether we have enough time to go off. Bolt buys us time and actually speeds up the kill potential by maybe a half-turn. This is pretty big considering I don't have access to LED.

-Guttersnipe does the same as bolt out of the board. It actually speeds the deck up, but at the risk of removal. In my metagame there is a glut of fair decks, many of them blue with plenty of removal like Grixis Delver/Czech pile or Punishing Maverick. Post-board Guttersnipe has been really good at simply pressuring from a different axis. If they don't have an answer to Snipe the longer game gets better because chains of rituals don't need to go anywhere on their own, they are pinging off 2 life every time a short chain happens. Really sold on Guttersnipe out of the board.

-Blood Moon, as much as I love it, just doesn't warrant enough slots. I have enough decks in the metagame Moon-ing people themselves that it is a dead slot. Those slots are going to Snipe. I also forgot that I had a By Force in the board, which I neglected to include in my list further up.

-I had used Helm of Awakening for a long time, without any real effect of enabling opponent's too much. Something had to give for Bolts and I am positive this is a better option, at least I'm convinced for now.

Those are my thoughts right now. Really like Lightning Bolt, it's a little counterintuitive because its not a traditional storm inclusion, but man I should have seen it before. Thanks to mistercakes for selling me on Guttersnipe and Bolts.I actually had an idea of a list with 2 MD Grapeshot, 4 Bolt and 3-4 Firebrand Archer. I think this version would play much closer to a traditional storm deck (storm to ~10 and kill you) and Archer seemed a bit interesting to me due to mana constraints.

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[Memories of the Time]

gamble has been in my maybeboard for quite some time. it's a great card, but haven't felt like using it in a while.

Yes, i know, i've read all the pages of this thread. I was saying that, imho, we forget about this two things about gamble too often, just that =)

[Mr. Safety]

I actually had an idea of a list with 2 MD Grapeshot, 4 Bolt and 3-4 Firebrand Archer. I think this version would play much closer to a traditional storm deck (storm to ~10 and kill you) and Archer seemed a bit interesting to me due to mana constraints.

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Archer is a little weak...the old Modern/Extended tech was Pyromancer's Swath. I don't think you need it, Guttersnipe is a better threat and 3 mana isn't difficult to achieve over 2. I could see Young Pyromancer as a 2-drop in a Grapeshot-focused deck, but I don't think that's very good either (just too fragile compared to Warrens.) The bolts allow leaner-mana situations to allow Grapeshot to be lethal, which means we don't have to lean on Medallion as much. I love this because it means I don't have to play Helm of Awakening. I don't hesitate to make a small Grapeshot chain to act as a Wrath of God and buy time either.

[shimst3r]

serum is quite clunky otherwise, maybe in a version with 4 helm of awakening. what do you propose the cut is?
Thank you for considering my suggestion, but after some days of extensive goldfishing I came to the conclusion that Serum isn't quite warranted. The more practice I have with the deck, the less I see the need for a guaranteed Ruby in the opening hand. :eyebrow:

Based on the list in the opening post, there's not enough room for Serum either. The only cards I'd cut after goldfishing are Commune with Lava which (at least from my experience as of yet) shouldn't be replaced with anything but draw spells.

[mistercakes]

Thank you for considering my suggestion, but after some days of extensive goldfishing I came to the conclusion that Serum isn't quite warranted. The more practice I have with the deck, the less I see the need for a guaranteed Ruby in the opening hand. :eyebrow:

Based on the list in the opening post, there's not enough room for Serum either. The only cards I'd cut after goldfishing are Commune with Lava which (at least from my experience as of yet) shouldn't be replaced with anything but draw spells.


i like commune, but it could probably be a 1 or or even dropped. i'm going to continue testing it until i can at least get some matches in with it.

the slots that are flexible seem to be the 16th land (although you can probably get away with 14 if you're lucky) . some people play 13 here, but over the course of a long tournament, it will catch up with you. the bolts as well, and the guttersnipes.

if you do run the playsets of snipes and bolts, you're likely to make it to an end game (bolts keep honest decks slow, although they can be brutally bad vs some decks.)

i like the 16th land right now, although i am considering cutting 1 commune for a 3rd bolt or a 3rd pif, probably a bolt. it could also be a gamble as mentioned.

[Mr. Safety]

Regarding lands: I tried 15 lands and I got flooded way too much, even over 50+ games. I cut to 14 and I am happy with that number. I would never play 16 unless it were for utility lands that perform like a spells.

[Knighthawk]

I preface this with the knowledge that I need way more reps with this deck, however love reading the thread. What are your thoughts on this:

2 city of traitors
12 mountain

4 Ruby Medallion
4 Lions eye diamond
4 lotus petal
4 rite of flame
4 manamorphose
4 seething song
4 gitaxian probe
4 act on impulse
4 burning wish

3 guttersnipe
2 past in flames
1 shreds of sanity
4 lightning bolt//3 and 1 abrade

Sb:
1 tendrils of agony
1 empty the warrens
1 grapeshot
1 past in flames
1 cave-in
1 reforge the soul
1 by force/shattering spree
3 scab clan berserker
2 defense grid
2 silent gravestone
1 abrade or potentially hull breach.

This is what I think I'd like to test after reading this far.
If leds can't be found im thinking 15th land and 3 desperate rituals.

I'd say keep our eyes peeled for this year's group of products. Dominaria will likely be promising and between all the cool new products and the core set returns, we could very well wind up with an additional act on impulse or something else.

Side note, say we did get a functional reprint....what would we even cut?

[Manroe]

I preface this with the knowledge that I need way more reps with this deck, however love reading the thread. What are your thoughts on this:

2 city of traitors
12 mountain

4 Ruby Medallion
4 Lions eye diamond
4 lotus petal
4 rite of flame
4 manamorphose
4 seething song
4 gitaxian probe
4 act on impulse
4 burning wish

3 guttersnipe
2 past in flames
1 shreds of sanity
4 lightning bolt//3 and 1 abrade

Sb:
1 tendrils of agony
1 empty the warrens
1 grapeshot
1 past in flames
1 cave-in
1 reforge the soul
1 by force/shattering spree
3 scab clan berserker
2 defense grid
2 silent gravestone
1 abrade or potentially hull breach.

This is what I think I'd like to test after reading this far.
If leds can't be found im thinking 15th land and 3 desperate rituals.

I'd say keep our eyes peeled for this year's group of products. Dominaria will likely be promising and between all the cool new products and the core set returns, we could very well wind up with an additional act on impulse or something else.

Side note, say we did get a functional reprint....what would we even cut?Honestly, I've had better luck without LEDs if I run snipes main. I originally built this to be budget and I got the LEDs for something else. Really fell in love with it.

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[mistercakes]

List looks worth testing. Play the singleton Abrade if you're in a heavy dnt/drs/Stompy meta. Otherwise play a 4th bolt or a 2nd shreds (it gets better with bolts too.


If we get a functional reprint of AoI this deck becomes very scary. I don't know if it will ever happen, but would also be happy with a 1R 2 card AoI. Anyway. Let's see what happens, as mentioned earlier in the thread: the deck will only get better over time. The other storm decks are already pretty optimal, so the work in progress is a great reason to keep this deck sleeved up.

[ahg113]

With a duplicate AoI, i'd trim some g.probes, and from the above list, some bolts. There should be two gy effect cards, mizzix or pif, so that Shreds is looking to be replaced by AoI clone too. And if Commune is in the deck, that''s a candidate as well.

Not touching any ramp spell(morph inc.), not touching artifacts, nor burning wish, what's left? Snipes for sure, but i'm a huge fan of those.

[compacta_d]

My land count is probably the thing i worked most on.

I found 13 to be the exact amount of lands I wanted.

Fetch lands help reduce whiff capabilities off the AOIs and RTS. Even flopping 1 land hurts the consistency.

At first I ran 4 Tombs, but found I needed Red WAY more than that.

Dropped 1 tomb and upped my mountains. Found it fantastic.

Faithless looting helps fix land drops as well as puts rite of flames and PIF/Mizzix targets in yard.

Gamble would do the same.

My numbers with Helm/Ruby as well. Having 2 helm really helps with defense grids and dropping Tendrils of Agony numbers. At first I was 4 ruby/2 helm. Then found 5 to be a good number and adjusted from there.

Helm FINALLY bit me in the ass vs a miracles player when he predicted a TON and just out carded me. I still won that match though FWIW. Game 3 we both got flooded and the fetches helped a LOT IMO. At a point I new the 3 lands left in my deck and odds of drawing certain things etc and went off from there.

Just SOLD off my LEDS along with some other stuff, so I am 100% moving out of the deck into something I feel is better suited for GP's etc. Selling manamorphose, so possibly can come back to it later without the LEDS for local stuff, but probably not good enough to warrant it at that point for me.

Final thoughts- I like 2 PIF main 1 sb i think. 1 mizzix mastery mained 1 sb. seriously try this card out. its a snapcaster for freebies and often wins on the spot when overloaded. Allows for tendrils off red mana only and adds extra storm count. They also chain together. Mizz-mizz-tendrils etc.

I think Gamble and Faithless in some qtys help consistency.

Fetch land math only applies to a game where you draw 4 cards, not 40.

[mistercakes]

thanks. my main concern is always finding an initial red mana source. if you're consistent enough to get that with 10 that's great. i haven't been able to have that same consistency with 10. (i don't count petals as in most real-matches it's a risky keep).

too bad to see you sell off! LED is one of my favorite cards, but money is money! best of luck.

[Mr. Safety]

I don't think the deck is dead without LED's...it's different, but not dead. A little slower, about 1/2 a turn, but that leaves open slots for interaction that you can't cut anywhere else for (Bolts, Overmaster) or adding more threats (Guttersnipe, maindeck Warrens) or just slamming more Shreds of Sanity/Hazoret's Undying Fury.

[compacta_d]

I don't think the deck is dead without LED's...it's different, but not dead. A little slower, about 1/2 a turn, but that leaves open slots for interaction that you can't cut anywhere else for (Bolts, Overmaster) or adding more threats (Guttersnipe, maindeck Warrens) or just slamming more Shreds of Sanity/Hazoret's Undying Fury.

i agree, but im selling off lots

[.Ix]

There was some discussion of a Dragonstorm variant in this thread last year. Apparently, some Japanese players have done well with it.

http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD00006SOT/

http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD00656TA/

http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD00135N/

I don't think it's so different from this deck as to require a different thread, and it might have merit as a LED-less variant.

[mistercakes]

The third list being closest to the deck discussed here. Maybe better than the non LED list.

[Memories of the Time]

Can't understand why you should play 6 dragons, 2 dragonstorm, 3 empty the warrens and 4 burning wish.
I like a dragonstorm way, but i think that the point should be to have like 4 wish 3 dragonstorm+1 on sb and the minimum number of dragons?

[mistercakes]

of the 3, this is prob the best one:

http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD00006SOT/

[Mr. Safety]

Dragonstorm is so spicy! However, there is a minimum of 9-12 cards that need to be dedicated to make it work (6-8 dragons, 3-4 Dragonstorms.) There is a Rb dragonstorm thread here, i'll try and find it.

[compacta_d]

Dragonstorm makes a lot of sense to me.


Saw the post on reddit and prompted me to come in here. I'll probably pick that stuff up with store credit.

Mizzix's mastery + faithless looting is real good! :P

[Knighthawk]

We had another article highlighting the deck yesterday. Anyone from the Source?

http://www.gatheringmagic.com/carlosgutierrez-02192018-burning-up-a-storm/

[mistercakes]

i know ahg113 posts on here, so maybe he knows the author.

[Mr. Safety]

Guttersnipe one of your few cards that are vulnerable to commonly played removal spells, but gives you the potential of controlling the board or just killing your opponent outright, particularly in multiples.

Guttersnipe doesn't hit creatures, so he missed that. Makes me think that Burning Vengeance is something that could be valuable if we are looking for that effect.


The strength of this deck is that the draw spells mean that you can go off from a relatively small base even after your opponent has the opportunity to utilize their own disruptive elements.

He gets this right.

[ahg113]

I haven't the foggiest. I haven't sleeved that up in paper yet (waiting on Commune with Lava in the mail), so it must be against someone I've played against on cockatrice.

The credit really does belong to mistercakes, my handle is misguidingly associated.

A pleasant surprise.

[ahg113]

Guttersnipe doesn't hit creatures, so he missed that. Makes me think that Burning Vengeance is something that could be valuable if we are looking for that effect.

For the heck of it, Snipe is a body, so it's possible to control the board in ways of not removal, but just a deterrent from them attacking you, you attacking them, or blah blah blah.

[mistercakes]

been doing some goldfishing with 12 mtn, 2 tomb, 3 commune, 2 snipe, 0 bolt, 3 pif. (rest is 4's)

it's been pretty good, but i'm pretty sure the deck will still want another land. if that's the case then the 3rd commune drops down to 2. each time it's super risky just to get a 2nd land, which this deck needs to be consistent.

[Mr. Safety]

For the heck of it, Snipe is a body, so it's possible to control the board in ways of not removal, but just a deterrent from them attacking you, you attacking them, or blah blah blah.

I don't think Guttersnipe would ever deter someone from attacking you. If you block, you lose a win condition. If you don't block, they pressure your life total. If that's what he meant by 'controlling the board' then I have very little faith in his evaluation of Magic interplay. I think it's more likely he was under the impression that Guttersnipe also has the ability to hit creatures. I play this deck and Junk/Deadguy Ale both quite a bit. As a mid-range fair deck player I wouldn't hesitate to attack into Snipe, not even for a second, and my StP's and Abrupt Decays will kill that guy ASAP. It's a terrible argument for 'controlling the board'.

It did however really get me thinking about Burning Vengeance, which is a combo kill with Past in Flames. It's another way for Grapeshot to be lethal if mana is an issue (like not having a Ruby Medallion.) The fact that it's an enchantment is also very relevant. I might do 3x Vengeance maindeck and then swap it out with Guttersnipe post-board when grave hate comes in and creature removal goes out.

I'm also looking into what it would take to get Dragonstorm into the mix. It's janky as hell, but sweet jesus it would be fun.

[mistercakes]

Vengeance is pretty bad here. Feel free to try it but it's totally dependent on past in flames and if for some reason they are playing grafdiggers, it does nothing. Also you don't need to squeeze dragonstorm into the deck, it's a good deck on its own.

Vieko showed me these dragonstorm decks about a year ago, which is what inspired me to do Ruby Storm in the first place.

Guttersnipe controls the board in the aspect that the game becomes centered around him once he hits the table.

[Mr. Safety]

That makes sense, it becomes a Guttersnipe sub-game. Vengeance would only be a maindeck card, boarded out for Guttersnipe out of the side. I think I've mentioned before that I actually board out copies of PiF post-board for relevant interaction against grave hate. Vengeance would have to follow suit.

Dragonstorm would be for pure funsies, honestly. I know the version I am already using is pretty decent. At the local it could be HILARIOUS though.

[mistercakes]

yea i think the dragonstorm deck is worth sleeving up. it's definitely the best way to abuse mizzix's mastery. the dragon backup plan is honestly fine too, which is a bit odd for 2018 legacy.