Ruby Storm

[mistercakes]

heyo!

http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD07891K/

lady edith? anyone?

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2018-02-17

congrats! happy to see some of the old cards in there like ssg and reforge.

would love to hear what matchups, and if you're happy with your 4x blood moon plan. i gave up on that one a while ago. (after ssg was dropped it wasn't a reliable turn 1, but you've kept 2 so maybe it's fair). it can be awkward with guide off of act on impulse.

any other choices? i know the hazoret's is more or less just a dice roll to see if you win or lose, still might prefer a 3rd PiF or a guttersnipe. even an empty seems like a better hail mary most of the time. anyway it's great to get on the map again.


2 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Act on Impulse
4 Burning Wish
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Hazoret's Undying Fury
2 Past in Flames
3 Reforge the Soul
4 Rite of Flame
4 Manamorphose
4 Seething Song
2 Helm of Awakening
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Ancient Tomb
10 Mountain


1 Past in Flames
1 Reforge the Soul
4 Blood Moon
1 By Force
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Grapeshot
2 Leyline of the Void
2 Pyroblast
1 Pyroclasm

[Mr. Safety]

yea i think the dragonstorm deck is worth sleeving up. it's definitely the best way to abuse mizzix's mastery. the dragon backup plan is honestly fine too, which is a bit odd for 2018 legacy.

Thundermaw Hellkite FTW.

[mistercakes]

after looking over the last 5-0 list, i wanted to rethink how i approach the deck.

i think if not going with the guttersnipe plan, the best plan is to overload in a single turn.

been goldfishing with the following:


4 act on impulse
4 manamorphose
4 gitaxian probe
4 seething song
4 rite of flame
4 burning wish
3 hazoret's undying fury
3 past in flames
4 lion's eye diamond
4 lotus petal
4 ruby medallion
2 helm of awakening
2 lightning bolt
2 ancient tomb
12 mountain


i gave up on hazoret's as i never really tried it with LED extensively. i also always paired hazoret's with reforge the soul, which is great when it happens, but i think it's a bit of a trap.

i haven't spent too much time on the sb. the major difference i've been testing with is always choosing to play 2nd (on the draw). the extra card allows for better mulligans and you should optimally aim for a turn 3 kill (unless if opponent is non-blue, then you can always choose to play first).

the only exception being show and tell since they are blue and can win fast, it may be an issue by drawing first.

[mistercakes]

pretty satisfied with the hazoret's list overall, but also am proposing another list.

i have also spent some time goldfishing with ANT (i never really played the deck much as I was a doomsday player exclusively until I couldn't find time to play it....then i wasn't quick enough to make all the piles and felt bad always going to time), and realized that this deck is just extremely consistent compared to the ruby deck.

the issue here is that the ruby deck is still pretty consistent, but in a lot of ways it's just doing what ANT does worse.

the approach i'm taking here is very close to the hazoret's list, but asking myself what can this deck do that ANT would love to do, but can't due to maximizing efficiency (or b/c of ad nauseam).

ANT would love to play bolts and more empty.

so for the latest build i'll test:


4 act on impulse
4 manamorphose
4 gitaxian probe
4 seething song
4 rite of flame
4 burning wish
3 empty the warrens
3 past in flames
4 lion's eye diamond
4 lotus petal
4 ruby medallion
4 lightning bolt
2 ancient tomb
12 mountain


i know there's a bunch of people that have pushed the warrens build, but not so many that have pushed it as much with LED and haven't really seen it tested with the 4 bolt approach. usually 6 goblins won't be enough in most legacy matches, but maybe with 4 bolts it's going to be able to do something that a light empty normally would fail to do. because it's just the 3 empty, the deck is still quite capable of doing all the crazy storm stuff, including tendrils for lethal quite easily.

the only major design drawback i see here is that it might be harder to beat the miracles deck, and it will have a more difficult lands matchup than the guttersnipe builds.

anyway, still need to test.

[Mr. Safety]

I think the synergy that Lightning Bolt has with Ruby Storm is enough to include it, even though most other storm lists won't want it. It's adds 5 damage to a Tendrils chain, 4 damage to a Grapeshot chain, and "3 goblins" to an Empty chain. Looking back at Modern's earlier attempts at Storm variants with Pyromancer Ascension, some lists didn't even use Grapeshot but instead just used Lightning Bolt along with Past in Flames. Ascension doubled the Bolts and PiF recast them (sometimes doubled again.) This brings up the unique protection angle that this storm list has that others don't: targeted removal in the maindeck instead of discard. The way this version of storm is built it relies on a critical mass of redundancy rather than filtering spells like Brainstorm, raw draw power instead of cheap filtering. Lightning Bolt does exactly what the deck needs, whereas in TES/ANT it would be critical slots sacrificed for little gain. (I'm curious why you think ANT would love Bolts? I would think they don't really want them at all...)

Add to that the Guttersnipe plan (sideboard for me) and it all of a sudden becomes an agro/combo deck that can clear blockers/hatebears, attack with Snipe or Gobbo tokens, and has reach with Grapeshot/Bolt.

[mistercakes]

On Tuesday I'll try 3 bolt, 2 haz, 1 helm, 2 empty the warrens, 2 pif rest is 4s.

feeling pretty good about this list. not running any shenanigans sb stuff.

(also worth mentioning that i still want to test this last 5-0 list. it's been a while since i had a dedicated list with reforge. not sure how well the blood moon plan worked out. too bad no feedback from the player on their matchups)

[mistercakes]

Game 1: on the draw (lost dice roll)
opponent plays verdant
I start w/ mountain, rof, manamorphose, led, led, bw, empty

Game 2:
Opponent boards a lot of cards, I board out helm and hazoret's for abrade and reforge.
He has turn 0 leyline
Collective brutality on my burning wish
I cast ruby and pass
He plays dark confidant
I follow up with manamorphose, petal #2, reforge into #3 mountain -> Rof, cast ruby#2. Sac petal for Red, cast AoI for R.

Flip AoI, probe, manamorphose. Play LED, LED, cast AoI and eventually chain into an empty for 30+ goblins.

Pass turn and I lucked out b/c he had in his deck 2 golgari charm and a toxic deluge. He didn't hit any in the top 9. (I didn't bother checking what I had next in the event that he did wipe my board).

R2: 4c leovold (lost dice roll)
G1: I tendrils him on turn 3
G2: I almost power through leovold, deathrite, force, fluster, 2 hydroblast, surgical (on burning wish) and 2 hymn.
G3: Similar to game 2 except he FoW'd a defense grid.

R3: UB reanimator (lost dice roll)
G1: I kept a risky 6 with no lands but a lotus petal, and scry'd a nonland to the bottom. Never drew a mountain.
G2: I had a turn 2 kill. After probing it looked safe enough to wait. He drew lotus petal and turn 1 iona.

R4: ANT (lost dice roll)
G1: I was able to turn 1 with a lucky 6 (bw on top). Probe, RoF, RoF, Ruby, Song, AoI -> into a few cards to kill with tendrils
G2: had a few spells to get there, but not enough business spells and just sort of durdled a bit.
G3: had a turn 1 rof petal 2 led bw into reforge, but with R floating and no land drop was only able to draw a land. No other accelerants. Drew 4 probes. He discarded some gas (BW I think) on my part and I was unable to draw another business spell fast enough.

Overall the deck ran fine. I expected to lose vs UB reanimator and ANT is a bit of a coin flip.

The maindeck was good, the only game 1 where I lost was vs reanimator. The bolts did pretty good overall.

Out of the sb, I will cut Goblin War Strike and the Cave-In, which is worse with maindeck bolts.

Still haven't figured out what the other 2 cards will be, but am leaning towards a 3rd grid and something else.

Can also consider cutting 2 tormod's crypts and the 2 berserkers, but will need to evaluate options again.

will update tomorrow w/ sb. (I'll try 3 bolt, 2 haz, 1 helm, 2 empty the warrens, 2 pif rest is 4s.)

never got to resolve hazoret's (was countered both times, and both times i really didn't invest much mana prior, had a ruby and 4 lands in play for first one, 5 lands in play for the 2nd one)

TL:DR
goblins is probably good enough.
better sb options could have improved the 4c pile.
reanimator is normally favored vs storm, so that's an acceptable loss
ANT is a coinflip, and whiffed on a reforge when it counted in game 3.

afterthoughts:
it's possible that the build with the 3 reforge and blood moon sb is good vs a 4c metagame, so will have to test it. the guides and 4 tombs also make the deck probably a full turn faster than 0 guides and 2 tomb.

i like the maindeck in the current build as well, so i will test grids & blood moons (one or the other) and test vs grixis delver and 4c pile. the combo decks are a bit of a race/sideboarding and not as relevant for testing purposes. it's quite clear what the goal is in each case.

[Mr. Safety]

I would think the Bolts would go a long ways with dealing with DRS, which is a linchpin in 4c. Blood Moon is good, but killing Deathrite is a priority for sure. I see very little 4c in my metagame so I dropped the Moons from my sideboard a month ago and replaced it with another 2 Guttersnipes. The other thing I've been doing is trying (hard!) to just leave it alone and get a bunch of games in to see which lines can be taken. Some games are non-games where I just spin my wheels, but that's the nature of any storm deck really. I've been more aggressive in mulligans, especially on the draw.

I've also been watching some Belcher videos lately too, which shows how much of a glass cannon that deck is compared to Ruby Storm. I have gone off with only 2 cards in hand before, just making land drops and ripping a Past in Flames/Shreds of Sanity. Rebuilding a storm chain is completely reasonable. One thing that I did take away from Belcher is that Desperate Ritual speeds the deck up significantly, especially in the absence of a Medallion/Helm. Getting to 3 mana for Seething Song, or just an Act on Impulse>pass the turn is very important. I couldn't reliably do that with Simian Spirit Guide. LED would be effectively useless for this particular angle because I would be looking to draw into more action, not play BW>crack LED in response> PiF/EtW/RtS/etc.

[mistercakes]

yep, but i'm already running bolts. the creatures weren't the issue when i lost.

he had multiple FoW, fluster, surgical, hymn, blue blast?, thoughtseize. the bolts were effective at killing his guys (deathrites and leovolds), but in the end there was too much to power through.

but if you haven't had much luck with blood moons i'll stick with the defense grids for now.

[Mr. Safety]

yep, but i'm already running bolts. the creatures weren't the issue when i lost.

Yeah, the curve is so low, and if they have 2-3 fetchlands without fear of Wasteland then Deathrite Shaman isn't really needed. I know people say 4c has a fragile mana-base, but I think that sentiment is exaggerated. They have pretty good mana stability, even at 4 colors. Deathrite is key, but not crucial.


he had multiple FoW, fluster, surgical, hymn, blue blast?, thoughtseize. the bolts were effective at killing his guys (deathrites and leovolds), but in the end there was too much to power through.

but if you haven't had much luck with blood moons i'll stick with the defense grids for now.

It really has to be turn 1, and that means it probably needs to be x4. I never had enough room to get 4 in the board. It could bait out a Force of Will, which is great, but if they spell pierce it because you can't get it t1, chances are good you'll still have to see Force later on. My take on grindy control decks like 4c and Miracles has been to just go for it...it's only going to get worse, so you just have to make them have the answers. If they do, but no threat, then I have usually been able to rebuild and try again. I'm not saying I win a lot, but at least it isn't a non-game after 1-2 pieces of interaction. I also play maindeck Overmaster, which can occasionally protect a key spell, but I dropped to 2 of them to get Bolts in there. My metagame has only a few blue decks, and the ones I see aren't really bothered by Overmaster, but Bolt does some real damage.

Hymn to Tourach, paired with free Forces, is probably about as bad as it gets for ANY combo deck honestly, besides dredge.

[mistercakes]

it's far from unwinnable, and i believe the matchup is actually favorable game 1. winning 1 of the 2 following games is reasonable, but the sb needs to be pretty tight.

i won't play the blood moon plan unless if i'm on 4 tomb + guides, as it's the easiest way to maintain consistency if you have it in opening hand.

grid, and to a lesser extent red blast seem to be the better cards here. at least with red blast you can take out a leovold, delver, ponder/brainstorm/probe, snapcaster, jace etc. if you play pyroblast it can up your storm count even if there's no blue spell/permanent.

anywho, i think my current board will look like this:


1 empty the warrens
1 past in flames
1 tendrils of agony
1 grapeshot
1 by force
1 reforge the soul
1 hazoret's undying fury
2 scab-clan berserker
2 silent gravestone
4 defense grid


the only slot i'm questioning a bit more now is the reforge the soul. it's pretty good if you are against non-blue decks and have more than 1 mana floating (or R floating with a ruby in play). this doesn't come up often enough, and for one more mana you can roll the dice with hazoret's instead. if you want a more deterministic kill, then right now it only looks like empty is the best choice if you can't storm 10.

i'll go through gatherer and look for some other potential options.

the only things i'm thinking of now are possible strong enchantments (like 4-6 mana ones that generate a lot of advantage or can end the game), considering running a silence or two (then i would need to find room for possibly for white mana although risking it with manamorphose/petal might be okay too), or some other big sorcery that could be effective vs the 4 color decks (possibly the destroy all lands and their owners find basics for each, or just ruination.)

not sure though.

only cards i can see worth testing that haven't really been named yet


Chandra Ablaze
Possibility Storm
Mana Cache

[ronco]

Looks like we might get a new toy in Dominaria...


Spoiler















***********SPOILER ALERT**************
Jaya Ballard
2RRR
Legendary Planeswalker — Jaya
5
+1: Add RRR. Spend this mana only to cast instant or sorcery spells.
+1: Discard up to three cards, then draw that many cards.
−8: You get an emblem with "You may cast instant and sorcery cards from your graveyard. If a card cast this way would be put into your graveyard, exile it instead."

• Mana produced by Jaya's first ability can be spent among any number of instant and/or sorcery spells.
• You choose how many cards to discard while Jaya's second ability is resolving. You can choose to discard zero cards this way (and then draw zero cards) if you wish.
• Jaya's emblem doesn't grant you permission to do anything with instant and sorcery cards in your graveyard except cast them. For example, you can't cycle instant or sorcery cards with cycling from your graveyard.

[mistercakes]

i already tried it last night on cockatrice.

5 mana is a lot without ruby, 4 is playable. it can't protect itself like chandra (who is capable of making RR for anything, or drawing a single card).

jaya draw ability doesn't play well with LED.

i think if the deck is going to run planeswalker options, torch of defiance is better at 4, and the 6 mana chandras are better if you're willing to go for it. worldwake seems much better for 1 more mana, and the other one that makes two 3/1's. (the 2nd ability is the reason why).

[mistercakes]

been testing a bit more and wondering how i can improve the blue matchups without totally devoting the sb slots.

usual 52 cards + 4 bolt + 4 pyromancer ascension.

it was originally in the build when i first created the thread, but i was so hellbent on using it with hazoret's that i didn't realize how broken it already is with probe/manamorphose/act on impulse.

the alternate build i'm running, which is more all in is running -4 pyromancer ascension and running 3 empty + 1 past in flames (although that pif can be a helm of awakening).

i'll need to test the ascensions, but it seems pretty good for any games that need to go longer than 3 turns. i'll also test out 2 faithless looting and 2 ascensions, to help better round out the deck if the ascensions are clunky.

[Knighthawk]

Super excited to give Jaya a whirl. This was the first deck I thought of when it came to her. Likely desperate ritual over led but could be am engine simply pitching cards each turn.

[mistercakes]

cool, hopefully it will surprise me. i wasn't very thrilled with it in goldfishing.

i'm pretty happy with pyromancer ascension overall. there's a little variance in not drawing duplicates, but overall there's enough power and it helps vs all the discard decks as well.

i did cut 1 to play a maindeck empty. i also have a dark petition in the sb now, so that way it can add another storm if for some reason i need to go for goblins and have 6 mana available instead.

what i'll keep until i can jam some games:


4 ruby medallion
3 pyromancer ascension

4 lion's eye diamond
4 lotus petal

4 rite of flame
4 seething song
4 manamorphose

4 gitaxian probe
4 act on impulse
2 past in flames

4 lightning bolt
4 burning wish
1 empty the warrens

12 mountain
2 ancient tomb


sideboard

2 grapeshot
3 empty the warrens
1 tendrils of agony
1 past in flames
1 by force
1 dark petition
1 gamble
1 reforge the soul
2 abrade
2 silent gravestone


to help sell you guys on dark petition:

turn 1: tomb + Ruby

turn 2:

tap tomb + mtn, rof, seething, led, wish-> DP
you finish that with RRRRBBB and get PiF from maindeck
cast PiF for RRB then you have leftoer BBRR
cast song -> then Dark Petition
RRRRRBB before petition, RRBBB after petition
get Wish, cast RoF so you hav RRRBBB, cast wish tendrils
RoF, seething, led, wish, dp, pif, song, petition, rof, wish, tendrils (for 22)

[Knighthawk]

to help sell you guys on dark petition:

turn 1: tomb + Ruby

turn 2:

tap tomb + mtn, rof, seething, led, wish-> DP
you finish that with RRRRBBB and get PiF from maindeck
cast PiF for RRB then you have leftoer BBRR
cast song -> then Dark Petition
RRRRRBB before petition, RRBBB after petition
get Wish, cast RoF so you hav RRRBBB, cast wish tendrils
RoF, seething, led, wish, dp, pif, song, petition, rof, wish, tendrils (for 22)

I think you wind up with an additional mana during the turn so at some point you can even pay for daze. Nice!

[bestryanever]

I've been lurking on this for a little bit and am a huge fan of the deck. I'm still working on saving up for LEDs, what's the latest on replacement tech until then?
I saw that someone mentioned adding 3 desperate rituals and a mountain, is that still the way to go? Are there other considerations?

Thanks in advance!

[Mr. Safety]

Yep, and consider playing additional copies of Ruby Medallion (Helm of Awakening) which makes Desperate Ritual into Dark Ritual.

[mistercakes]

i've noticed that if you have an active ascension out and cast a seething song (for 3 mana producing 10) that you can win if your other card is a burning wish. it requires that we cut the goblin war strike (easiest cut imho) and run a gamble in the sb.

example:
seething song (10 red)
burning wish with (8 red).
fetching gamble and past in flames.
cast gamble getting manamorphose and burning wish. (discarding both). (7 remaining)
cast past in flames (3)
flashback seething song (10 remaining)
cast manamorphose 8 red and 4 black.
cast burning wish. 6 red and 4 black.
get dark petition and tendrils.

situation B) keeping manamorphose
example:
seething song (10 red)
burning wish with (8 red).
fetching gamble and past in flames.
cast gamble getting manamorphose and burning wish. (discard PiF and wish). (7 remaining)
cast manamorphose (9 remaining)
flashback PiF (4 remaining)
cast seething song (11 remaining)
cast manamorphose (13 remaining)
cast gamble (for any 2 cards)
cast wish for tendrils


situation C) keeping burning wish

example:
seething song (10 red)
burning wish with (8 red).
fetching gamble and past in flames.
cast gamble getting manamorphose and burning wish. (PiF and manamorphose). (7 remaining)
flashback PiF (2 remaining)
flashback manamorphose (4 remaining)
flashback seething song (11 remaining)
flashback gamble for manamorphose and past in flames (discarding both) (10 remaining)
flashback past in flames (5 remaining)
flashback manamorphose (7 remaining)
cast burning wish for dark petition and tendrils.

lines get much easier if you have a ruby in play as well.
happy storming!

if you want to be really crazy you can go for this.

example:
seething song (10 red)
burning wish with (8 red).
fetching gamble and past in flames.
cast gamble getting act on impulse and act on impulse. (discarding both). (7 remaining)
cast past in flames (3)
flashback seething song (10 remaining)
cast act on impulse and act on impulse (flip 12 cards). (every probe and manamorphose is a draw 2, you can potentially start casting everything in your deck at this point).

the only downside here is that if you discard the past in flames, you have to hit off of your first 6 cards. (but you only need mana, or more draw spells)

[ahg113]

Time to buy more cards...

@mistercakes- why the 3 EtW''s in sb? Seems excessive, or are there time you board those in and the enchantments out?

[mistercakes]

hahaha :)

i'm basing this off of the success of TES in recent months. they load up on empty after sb for the grixis delver matchup. it could also be useful for the czech pile, but they can still luck you out with one of their 3+ sweepers.

against grixis delver you can leave a lot of it still in, but vs czech pile i'd consider bringing in a bunch of stuff. i will need to test both matchups though.

vs miracles i'm not sure what to do yet! depends on if they run rest in peace or not.

[mistercakes]

was thinking i might want to run a shreds of sanity over the 2nd grapeshot. will have to test as well. can do some weird things with that.

edit: didn't come up enough. either run a 2nd grapeshot, or if you are in a meta full of ANT, you can run sadistic sacrament. worth noting that if you have an active ascension, sacrament can potentially kill TES (as long as they aren't holding the win cons in their hand, same goes for ant). copy also will copy the kicker. so if for some reason you can generate 7BBB you can exile 30 cards. that's cool and useless. i like it.

Also testing 2 pyromancer and a maindeck gamble instead of 3 pyromancer.

[mistercakes]

was goldfishing a bit more and i think it's safer to just play the 13th land over the 8th card here.

dropping bolts down to 2 (dunno if that's wise or not yet), but want to run 4 pyromancer as it's just a bit too good as an engine. still keeping the 1 maindeck empty as i'm running a dark petition in the sb and it's a useful tutor target.

[Mr. Safety]

I purchased the remaining cards for a Dragonstorm variant, spoiler, it's not very good lol. I'm currently going old extended tech with Lotus Blooms, which are abysmally slow by legacy standards (turn 4 combo.) Getting to 9 mana however is quite difficult, and when you consider Burning Wish as well it's at least 10 mana. That means we still need Ruby's and Past in Flames to get to a high enough mana count...and at that point you can win with Tendrils, EtW, or Grapeshot. So I'm playing 4 maindeck Blood Moons as plan #1, which should buy time to get to turn 4.

Here is my testing list, it's quite awkward, but it does what its supposed to do by turn 4.

Dragonstorm Moon

3x Dragonstorm
4x Burning Wish
4x Thundermaw Hellkite
3x Bogardan Hellkite

4x Lotus Bloom
4x Lotus Petal
4x Ruby Medallion
4x Rite of Flame
4x Desperate Ritual
4x Seething Song
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Blood Moon

4x Crystal Vein
9x Mountain

Sideboard
3x Empty the Warrens
1x Dragonstorm
1x Past in Flames
1x Grapeshot
1x Pyroclasm
2x Scab-Clan Berserker
2x Tormod's Crypt
4x Pyroblast


Hardcasting Dragons is not unreasonable, especially after Blood Moon and several turns to draw extra mana. I think for now the SSG's are necessary to really push for a t1 Moon. I think boarding in Empty the Warrens and other cards in cases where Blood Moon is bad is a decent plan, considering it would need a faster combo turn than t4.

[mort47]

Hello. I'm new and I've read almost all of the thread. I've never played Legacy before because it's been prohibitively expensive unless I play burn but now here's a budget-friendly combo deck. Thanks for that, this will probably be my way into the format. I can't justify the LED's until I've tried the format to see if I like it though, so I'm holding off on those for a bit and I've been testing (against AI, so goldfishing) this list:

// Main:
4 Act on Impulse
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Burning Wish
2 Desperate Ritual
2 Gamble
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Guttersnipe
2 Helm of Awakening
4 Lotus Petal
4 Manamorphose
11 Mountain
3 Past in Flames
2 Pyromancer Ascension
1 Reforge the Soul
4 Rite of Flame
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Seething Song

// Sideboard:
2 Abrade
1 By Force
1 Cave-In
3 Defense Grid
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
1 Hazoret's Undying Fury
1 Past in Flames
1 Reforge the Soul
2 Scab-Clan Berserker
1 Tendrils of Agony

The sideboard will probably need graveyard hate but I haven't figured out what yet.

I agree with consensus in this thread that HUF whiffs too often on its own, but if you've got Pyromancer Ascension active it seems to win the game basically 100% of the time, so I've got one in the wishboard which comes out for those rare occasions when you have an active Ascension, enough mana to cast HUF and not enough storm count or stuff in your graveyard to want to go for a win con or PiF. This is very rare though so I might still drop it for being too cute. Definitely better than Reforge when you have the Ascension online though.

Ascension is also impressive because it fits this deck's main advantage over TES and ANT (as far as I can tell anyway) which is being able to keep pushing through disruption. This deck also seems better than others for taking a risk trying to go off earlier and if you end up missing you just need a PiF or a Wish (Gamble in a pinch) and you can just carry on.

I added two Helms because in the LED-less build you almost need one the turn before you go off. On the right draw you can win without but it's not consistent. If I was to throw in LED I'd probably drop those and the Desperate Rituals.

Gamble has been great almost every time I've cast it. Even with an empty hand, getting PiF in the yard is super valuable if the game goes grindy and early on I've used it to find that one extra ritual or cantrip to keep going, so I think I prefer two rather than one.

Guttersnipe is nuts. Games for me ideally start with an early Helm or Medallion, start going off the turn after dropping one and I'll usually hit one of the two Guttersnipes along the way and it wins the turn it's cast. I know it's soft to removal though so I don't know how keen I'd be on it if I was playing against real people. Two seems like the right number because to counteract its squishiness you usually want to pick one up during a combo chain.

One Reforge in the main, one in the wishboard. I'm really scared of using it against blue decks but I think starting with it there and being able to Gamble or Wish for it is correct. I could see trying Bedlam Reveler over it though if giving your opponent a full grip starts to look too risky. Format-dependent and I don't know the format. It's also just bad in the FoW match-up because it's the one big spell that they obviously need to counter whereas all the other spells just provide incremental advantage. Possibly an argument for Overmaster, but I wouldn't want to play many of those so hitting Overmaster and Reforge at the same time just seems too unlikely.

I'm trying three Ancient Tomb because hitting one later after playing a couple of Medallion/Helm is really bad. Also makes the deck cheaper. Slightly reduces the odds of T1 Medallion/Helm but I don't mind throwing away a Lotus Petal or Rite of Flame to get one in play. Not sure about this yet. It might also be correct to go up to 15 land anyway but I don't think I'd go higher than that.

There are my thoughts if anyone wants them. Obviously not knowing Legacy well I'm not sure how valuable this is. I hope that I can build something similar to what I've posted here then upgrade it with LED's later and it be properly competitive.

[mistercakes]

glad to hear you're on board with the deck.

some feedback:

4 Act on Impulse
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Burning Wish
2 Desperate Ritual
2 Gamble
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Guttersnipe
2 Helm of Awakening
4 Lotus Petal
4 Manamorphose
11 Mountain
3 Past in Flames
2 Pyromancer Ascension
1 Reforge the Soul
4 Rite of Flame
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Seething Song

consider cutting 1 past in flames, 1 reforge for 2 lightning bolts. also there's a possibility you'll want to try cutting . 1 helm and 1 guttersnipe for 2 more bolts. it will give you a better game vs all the decks that rely on DRS/delver/Thalia/Leovold.

[Mr. Safety]

I'm going to start testing a 4x Blood Moon maindeck list. One thing I liked about Dragonstorm was that it forced me to play a slower game, which made Blood Moon work quite well. I think I'll drop the DStorm idea but keep the Moons, and try it out.

2x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Rite of Flame
4x Seething Song
2x Desperate Ritual
4x Manamorphose
4x Lotus Petal
4x Ruby Medallion
4x Burning Wish
3x Past in Flames
1x Shreds of Sanity
1x Empty the Warrens
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Act on Impulse
1x Hazoret's Undying Fury
4x Blood Moon
4x Crystal Vein
10x Mountain

Sideboard
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Past in Flames
1x Grapeshot
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Goblin War Strike
1x Reforge the Soul
1x Pyroclasm
1x By Force
3x Pyroblast
2x Scab Clan Berserker
2x Tormod's Crypt


Depending on how much saturation DRS has in my local, which varies substantially, I would end up going back to Bolts. Moon is amazing t1, which is pretty easy in this list, but on the draw with opponent's landing a t1 Deathrite it becomes much worse. Moon makes SSG a decent option, even for beats if I land it early.

[mort47]

consider cutting 1 past in flames, 1 reforge for 2 lightning bolts. also there's a possibility you'll want to try cutting . 1 helm and 1 guttersnipe for 2 more bolts. it will give you a better game vs all the decks that rely on DRS/delver/Thalia/Leovold.

Thanks for the advice. I gave it a try and I found the deck a bit too inconsistent without the final Past In Flames. I'm on board with Bolt though, so I've dropped one Gamble and the main deck Reforge for Bolts. Seems to work well. I could also see Bolt over one Guttersnipe. I also tested dropping a Helm but this build of the deck really wants all six it seems. I might just be playing it wrong though; I almost always mulligan unless I have a Ruby/Helm and mana to cast it.

To make up for just playing two Bolts, I also put Mizzium Mortars in the side board over a Defense Grid. We'll see how that plays out; having not played against any humans yet I don't know. My plan for graveyard-based decks at the moment is to just be faster than them but I'm not sure that's realistic. I also don't know if two Defense Grids is sufficient. It might be time to remove Hazoret's Undying Fury. It's so sweet with Ascension but in the rare situation where it's amazing, Reforge is also good enough.

[ahg113]

Maybe I'm keeping bad slow hands, but Eldrazi is just the worst. It is just miserable, how do you guys handle it?

Current decklist
// Legacy - Ruby Storm-Pyromancer Ascension


// 60 Maindeck
// 12 Artifact
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

// 1 Creature
1 Guttersnipe

// 2 Enchantment
2 Pyromancer Ascension

// 13 Instant
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Commune with Lava

// 14 Land
11 Mountain
3 Ancient Tomb

// 18 Sorcery
4 Rite of Flame
4 Act on Impulse
4 Burning Wish
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony


// 15 Sideboard
// 2 Artifact
SB: 2 Silent Gravestone

// 2 Creature
SB: 2 Scab-Clan Berserker

// 11 Sorcery
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Reforge the Soul
SB: 2 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Mizzium Mortars
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 2 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Dark Petition
SB: 1 Gamble
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony

[mistercakes]

I haven't played the matchup much, but historically eldrazi is good Vs all of the storm decks. Tes is sometimes faster.

[Knighthawk]

Being it will likely be sometime next year that I can try to pick up Leds, has a proper substitute been found? I can live with being slightly slower and acts being slightly worse till I can aquire a set.

Would you recommend 2/2 split of desperate ritual and helm of awakening? Or is spirit guide needed?
Do we have to run win cons in the main vs just burning wishing for them?

Thanks.

[mistercakes]

if i didn't have led's i might try something like this now:


// 60 Maindeck
// 8 Artifact
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Lotus Petal

// 4 Enchantment
4 Pyromancer Ascension

// 16 Instant
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Desperate Ritual

// 14 Land
12 Mountain
2 Ancient Tomb

// 19 Sorcery
4 Rite of Flame
4 Act on Impulse
4 Burning Wish
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Past in Flames



you probably want a maindeck gamble in a deck like this though. maybe cut 1 desperate ritual or 1 act on impulse, as act becomes a lot worse without LED or a rock.

[mort47]

I think this is where I'm at right now:

// Main:
2 Abrade
4 Act on Impulse
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Burning Wish
2 Desperate Ritual
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Guttersnipe
2 Helm of Awakening
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Lotus Petal
4 Manamorphose
11 Mountain
3 Past in Flames
2 Pyromancer Ascension
4 Rite of Flame
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Seething Song

// Sideboard:
1 By Force
1 Cave-In
2 Defense Grid
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Gamble
1 Grapeshot
1 Mizzium Mortars
1 Past in Flames
1 Reforge the Soul
2 Scab-Clan Berserker
2 Silent Gravestone
1 Tendrils of Agony

For a while I was relying solely on By Force for artifact match-ups but Trinisphere is so punishing and you know they have multiples. I couldn't find slots in the sideboard for Abrade (except for that Hazoret's Undying Fury I was talking about) so I moved Gamble into the board and dropped a Guttersnipe. Storm doesn't need many win-cons and I've seen other lists on here running just the one. I've also had plenty of situations while playing where I really wanted to just Burning Wish for a Seething Song and now I sort of can. Only just started testing this list though.


Maybe I'm keeping bad slow hands, but Eldrazi is just the worst. It is just miserable, how do you guys handle it?

For Eldrazi, do we just want Blood Moon? I could see Mizzium Mortars getting cut for a single Blood Moon so you could board it in and Wish-Gamble-Blood Moon. Or is that too slow? Bear in mind I haven't played against it at all yet.


Being it will likely be sometime next year that I can try to pick up Leds, has a proper substitute been found? I can live with being slightly slower and acts being slightly worse till I can aquire a set.

Would you recommend 2/2 split of desperate ritual and helm of awakening? Or is spirit guide needed?
Do we have to run win cons in the main vs just burning wishing for them?

That's what I'm doing and I like it. Spirit Guide was just such a bad hit off Act on Impulse but two Helms let you play Ruby for :0: while storming off which is a nice little bonus. I like one win-con in the main and it's Guttersnipe but I've never felt the need to naturally draw into one of the storm cards.


you probably want a maindeck gamble in a deck like this though. maybe cut 1 desperate ritual or 1 act on impulse, as act becomes a lot worse without LED or a rock.

I'm playing LED-less and I don't think I'd go down Act. Yeah, it's not quite as good as if you have LED but I think you still need it. It still plays well with Seething Song and Pyromancer Ascension. Just my feeling on it, it's your deck and you likely know better.

[mistercakes]

I just won't play it without led anymore, so it's just a guess for me.

[mort47]

I just won't play it without led anymore, so it's just a guess for me.

Makes sense. I wouldn't either if I had them.

I'm currently testing 2x Bedlam Reveler and it's impressing me in the few games I've tried with it. I've seen it mentioned a few times in the thread but nothing conclusive. So far it seems worth a couple of slots in the LED-less build but also might play well with LED.

[mistercakes]

if i didn't have LED's i would consider trying to make more of a pyromancer ascension deck that is BR with some discard. being able to resolve a dark petition with an active pyromancer ascension can do some pretty interesting lines.

even something super simple like ->

DP -> gets DP and lotus petal -> cast dark petition -> gets manamorphose and dark petition -> cast manamorphose (twice), draw some cards -> cast dark petition -> get tendrils or burning wish + some mana.

I'm not really sure where this deck would go, but i really like this kind of approach. dark petition also has synergies with helm of awakening (2 in play makes dark petition free after initial casting).

this wouldn't really fit into mono red obviously, but it does seem like an interesting approach that could protect itself with some discard.

maybe something like this:

4 probe
4 manamorphose
2 thoughtseize
3 cabal therapy
3 burning wish
4 rite of flame
4 dark ritual
4 helm of awakening
4 lotus petal
4 pyromancer ascension
3 dark petition
1 past in flames
1 tendrils of agony
1 empty the warrens
1 gamble
17 lands

[mort47]

If you want to go all-in, Bedlam Reveler is Act on Impulse copies 5-8. Currently trying that with Burst of Speed in the sideboard.

[Mr. Safety]

If you want to go all-in, Bedlam Reveler is Act on Impulse copies 5-8. Currently trying that with Burst of Speed in the sideboard.

This feels like it would need 3x maindeck Empty, for sure. I'm not sure Burst of Speed is better than Goblin War Strike. If you get a bunch of tokens early (turns 1-2) that is usually enough to get you there. If you are looking to end the game on the spot, you need 20 goblins...and you're back to Goblin War Strike being better as it avoids combat.

[mort47]

This feels like it would need 3x maindeck Empty, for sure. I'm not sure Burst of Speed is better than Goblin War Strike. If you get a bunch of tokens early (turns 1-2) that is usually enough to get you there. If you are looking to end the game on the spot, you need 20 goblins...and you're back to Goblin War Strike being better as it avoids combat.

True, but Goblin War Strike doesn't let you attack for 20 with two Bedlam Revelers on turn two. :wink:

I don't know if this is correct but it looks like it has potential, with or without LED.

[Mr. Safety]

True, but Goblin War Strike doesn't let you attack for 20 with two Bedlam Revelers on turn two. :wink:

I don't know if this is correct but it looks like it has potential, with or without LED.

Is that reasonable or is it based on a perfect draw? I like the concept of all-in, red does that very well even while mono-colored. I think that's why I want to play Blood Moons maindeck. It isn't great against everything, but a lot of decks will fold to a t1 Blood Moon. That gives us plenty of time to assemble a combo, one where even 6-8 goblins will get there. The premise is rather than play protection, play more threats (that don't compromise your combo by using too many resources.) Blood Moon fits that bill pretty good. You're basically pressuring a faster combo turn whereas I think I'm trying to just play a threat that attacks on a different axis. I think nailing a t1 blood moon with a ritual + SSG is fine if it gets countered, because I didn't utilize too many resources to get there. Your Reveler plan is good because even if you don't combo you are left with a 3/4 that has prowess and refilled your hand. It seems like a decent plan, for sure. I know that guttersnipe plays that role as well.

[mistercakes]

I've tried revelers and didn't like them. Feel free to use them. Remember they are bad in a meta full of blockers.

[mort47]

Is that reasonable or is it based on a perfect draw? I like the concept of all-in, red does that very well even while mono-colored. I think that's why I want to play Blood Moons maindeck. It isn't great against everything, but a lot of decks will fold to a t1 Blood Moon. That gives us plenty of time to assemble a combo, one where even 6-8 goblins will get there. The premise is rather than play protection, play more threats (that don't compromise your combo by using too many resources.) Blood Moon fits that bill pretty good. You're basically pressuring a faster combo turn whereas I think I'm trying to just play a threat that attacks on a different axis. I think nailing a t1 blood moon with a ritual + SSG is fine if it gets countered, because I didn't utilize too many resources to get there. Your Reveler plan is good because even if you don't combo you are left with a 3/4 that has prowess and refilled your hand. It seems like a decent plan, for sure. I know that guttersnipe plays that role as well.

It's as reasonable as anything else really. I've managed it twice in the twenty or so games I've goldfished today (although one of those times I also found the Manamorphose for Tendrils, the first time the Revelers got there but Grapeshot wouldn't have).

I like your thinking and I think it does come down to personal taste. I much prefer a deck filled with fast, risky (but reasonably consistent) combo kills.

The Revelers do get blocked. I've cleared the way a couple of times with Bolts or attacked before the opponent could make a board (bad AI at least plays creatures) but more often than not its RR draw 3, which is something I think this deck wants. All four might be a bit much though because two of them in hand is so bad.

[Bosaapje]

So I went 1-1-1 (last one ID) and 2-0-1 (last one ID) today with Ruby Storm on the side events at GP Amsterdam. Tomorrow I'm going again, with a slightly different list. I'll try to remember enough tomorrow to make a tournament report but it's late now and I wanna go to bed so I'm concentrated tomorrow. My current list is:

4 Wish
4 Act on Impulse
1 Reforge the Soul
2 Hazoret's Undying Fury
1 Gamble
2 Past in Flames
1 Empty the Warrens

4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
4 Rite of Flame

4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Lightning Bolt

4 Ruby Medallion
2 Helm of Awakening

11 Mountain
3 Ancient Tomb

SB:

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Reforge the Soul
1 By Force
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Past in Flames
1 Gamble
1 Cave In
1 Hull Breach
3 Defense Grid
2 Scrab-Clan Berserker

So I want to include 1 extra Bolt, I really like that they give you time to breath because you can just kill the DRS/Thalia/whatever. Does someone have any idea what I can cut for the 3rd Bolt? Or have any other advice about my list? I've been playing on FNM-level for the last couple of weeks with good results (3-1 and 4-0) and I really like the deck. It has more potential than people give credit for. Anyway, thanks for reading!

[mistercakes]

So I went 1-1-1 (last one ID) and 2-0-1 (last one ID) today with Ruby Storm on the side events at GP Amsterdam. Tomorrow I'm going again, with a slightly different list. I'll try to remember enough tomorrow to make a tournament report but it's late now and I wanna go to bed so I'm concentrated tomorrow. My current list is:

4 Wish
4 Act on Impulse
1 Reforge the Soul
2 Hazoret's Undying Fury
1 Gamble
2 Past in Flames
1 Empty the Warrens

4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
4 Rite of Flame

4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Lightning Bolt

4 Ruby Medallion
2 Helm of Awakening

11 Mountain
3 Ancient Tomb

SB:

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Reforge the Soul
1 By Force
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Past in Flames
1 Gamble
1 Cave In
1 Hull Breach
3 Defense Grid
2 Scrab-Clan Berserker

So I want to include 1 extra Bolt, I really like that they give you time to breath because you can just kill the DRS/Thalia/whatever. Does someone have any idea what I can cut for the 3rd Bolt? Or have any other advice about my list? I've been playing on FNM-level for the last couple of weeks with good results (3-1 and 4-0) and I really like the deck. It has more potential than people give credit for. Anyway, thanks for reading!

thanks for the feedback. lemme know what your results were (match-wise) after the weekend. i think if you want the 3rd bolt, then you're likely going to want to drop 1 of the following:

1 hazoret's
1 helm of awakening
1 gitaxian probe
1 reforge the soul

i'm not really sure there's another option there.

-Rob

[Bosaapje]

I think your correct. I don't want to cut any business so it will probably be a Probe or Helm. I'll sleep over it and decide tomorrow morning. When I'm done I'll write a report.

[ahg113]

I've been clowning around on cockatrice with this list recently and have enjoyed it.

// Legacy - Ruby Storm-Pyromancer Ascension

// 60 Maindeck
// 12 Artifact
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

// 1 Creature
1 Guttersnipe

// 2 Enchantment
2 Pyromancer Ascension

// 13 Instant
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Commune with Lava

// 14 Land
11 Mountain
3 Ancient Tomb

// 18 Sorcery
4 Rite of Flame
4 Act on Impulse
4 Burning Wish
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony


// 15 Sideboard
// 2 Artifact
SB: 2 Silent Gravestone

// 2 Creature
SB: 2 Scab-Clan Berserker

// 11 Sorcery
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Reforge the Soul
SB: 2 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Dark Petition
SB: 1 Gamble
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Cave-In
SB: 1 By Force

I've gone back and forth between a Cave-In and Flame Slash, except for Leo, singleton grapeshot kinda fills that void if desperate. I like to be able to swap a Empty for Tendrils depending on the match-up, but keep it 1 MD / 3 SB between the two kill spells. Usually I like Silent Gravestone, sometimes I wish it were cave, others something else. But it shuts down DRS, and that's a great thing. Exiling GYs is tough at times, but optionality is pretty great. Scab-Clan is old tech, and have been happy with casting it, sometimes wins a game by itself. Singleton Guttersnipe is me going down with the ship, I like a diversity of win-cons in deck (Snipe, Wish, Tendrils).

[UnOrthodox Bird]

I've gone back and forth between a Cave-In and Flame Slash, except for Leo, singleton grapeshot kinda fills that void if desperate.

Personally, I would stick with Cave-In. Obviously you have the bolt/ascension thing going on and usually want to hit face, but bolt for leo is pretty good. Keep your sweeper.

[mistercakes]

I've been clowning around on cockatrice with this list recently and have enjoyed it.

// Legacy - Ruby Storm-Pyromancer Ascension

// 60 Maindeck
// 12 Artifact
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

// 1 Creature
1 Guttersnipe

// 2 Enchantment
2 Pyromancer Ascension

// 13 Instant
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Commune with Lava

// 14 Land
11 Mountain
3 Ancient Tomb

// 18 Sorcery
4 Rite of Flame
4 Act on Impulse
4 Burning Wish
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony


// 15 Sideboard
// 2 Artifact
SB: 2 Silent Gravestone

// 2 Creature
SB: 2 Scab-Clan Berserker

// 11 Sorcery
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Reforge the Soul
SB: 2 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Dark Petition
SB: 1 Gamble
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Cave-In
SB: 1 By Force

I've gone back and forth between a Cave-In and Flame Slash, except for Leo, singleton grapeshot kinda fills that void if desperate. I like to be able to swap a Empty for Tendrils depending on the match-up, but keep it 1 MD / 3 SB between the two kill spells. Usually I like Silent Gravestone, sometimes I wish it were cave, others something else. But it shuts down DRS, and that's a great thing. Exiling GYs is tough at times, but optionality is pretty great. Scab-Clan is old tech, and have been happy with casting it, sometimes wins a game by itself. Singleton Guttersnipe is me going down with the ship, I like a diversity of win-cons in deck (Snipe, Wish, Tendrils).

Still testing this? Wondering how it's been working out. I still haven't been able to play for some time now due to work/traveling.

[Mr. Safety]

So Dragon Stompy is a DTB...that decides it for me, I'm playing Blood Moon Storm at my next LGS outing, probably this Friday. List will be similar to one I posted a page or two back:

Fast Mana - 15
1x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Rite of Flame
4x Seething Song
2x Desperate Ritual
4x Lotus Petal

Reducers - 4
4x Ruby Medallion

Engine - 9
4x Burning Wish
3x Past in Flames
1x Shreds of Sanity
1x Hazoret's Undying Fury

Draw/Filter - 12
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Manamorphose
4x Act on Impulse

Win Conditions/Hosers - 6
4x Blood Moon
2x Empty the Warrens

Lands - 14
4x Crystal Vein
10x Mountain

Sideboard
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Past in Flames
1x Grapeshot
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Goblin War Strike
1x Reforge the Soul
1x Pyroclasm
1x By Force
3x Pyroblast
2x Scab Clan Berserker
2x Tormod's Crypt


Pyroclasm over Cave-In, because Gaddock Teeg has had a slight uptick at LGS. Pyroblast in the board seems good to protect Moons/Burning Wish on the cheap. Double Crypt because I almost always see BR reanimator represented, even if I get lucky and avoid the matchup. Still sold on War Strike because of the maindeck Warrens.

Will report back with results/matchups/feedback.

[johannart]

So Im going to start by saying I love this deck. I want to own it. That being said what do you people think about the effect of dampening sphere on the deck's flow? Inherently speaking you start resistant to the anti-storm effect of the card for the first 2 or so spells which can be used to wish for artifact removal if needed or draw it post board, but will the card limit this deck's consistency in the greater legacy meta in the long term?

[Mr. Safety]

So Im going to start by saying I love this deck. I want to own it. That being said what do you people think about the effect of dampening sphere on the deck's flow? Inherently speaking you start resistant to the anti-storm effect of the card for the first 2 or so spells which can be used to wish for artifact removal if needed or draw it post board, but will the card limit this deck's consistency in the greater legacy meta in the long term?

It's an artifact, something red is very capable of dealing with. Abrade, By Force, Shattering Spree. "We got that covered." With a reducer in play, the first spell is 1 cheaper, the second one is at cost, and the third costs 1 one more. This is actually a lot easier to deal with than traditional storm, because Ruby Medallion offsets it already.

EDIT: I totally forgot Guttersnipe in the board...will probably squeeze in at least 2 copies.

[johannart]

It's an artifact, something red is very capable of dealing with. Abrade, By Force, Shattering Spree. "We got that covered." With a reducer in play, the first spell is 1 cheaper, the second one is at cost, and the third costs 1 one more. This is actually a lot easier to deal with than traditional storm, because Ruby Medallion offsets it already.


That is what I thought, does tendrils do anything beyond give you an out for glacial chasm? Why not just play stone rain?

[mistercakes]

glacial chasm does not stop tendrils of agony. leyline is sanctity can be beaten by guttersnipe.

if a lands player has glacial chasm + leyline of sanctity then you lose. :)

i suppose you can use chaos warp if you really are afraid of this. just tune to your local meta.

i'm going to test some of the builds hopefully in a few weeks when i can do some playtesting sessions. my main goal is to test vs grixis delver + cz pile + miracles.

whatever build feels best against those will be my build for a considerable amount of time. unfortunately i don't have time to test, so when it happens it happens. hopefully someone else can do some testing as well. hopefully you guys have some competent testing partners!

[Mr. Safety]

if a lands player has glacial chasm + leyline of sanctity then you lose. :)


Blood Moon ftw!

[UnOrthodox Bird]

So Dragon Stompy is a DTB...that decides it for me, I'm playing Blood Moon Storm at my next LGS outing, probably this Friday. List will be similar to one I posted a page or two back:

Fast Mana - 15
1x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Rite of Flame
4x Seething Song
2x Desperate Ritual
4x Lotus Petal

Reducers - 4
4x Ruby Medallion

Engine - 9
4x Burning Wish
3x Past in Flames
1x Shreds of Sanity
1x Hazoret's Undying Fury

Draw/Filter - 12
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Manamorphose
4x Act on Impulse

Win Conditions/Hosers - 6
4x Blood Moon
2x Empty the Warrens

Lands - 14
4x Crystal Vein
10x Mountain

Sideboard
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Past in Flames
1x Grapeshot
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Goblin War Strike
1x Reforge the Soul
1x Pyroclasm
1x By Force
3x Pyroblast
2x Scab Clan Berserker
2x Tormod's Crypt


Pyroclasm over Cave-In, because Gaddock Teeg has had a slight uptick at LGS. Pyroblast in the board seems good to protect Moons/Burning Wish on the cheap. Double Crypt because I almost always see BR reanimator represented, even if I get lucky and avoid the matchup. Still sold on War Strike because of the maindeck Warrens.

Will report back with results/matchups/feedback.

I'm not convinced playing the deck without LED is the best option, especially with 3x maindeck Past in Flames. Noting that you have Crystal Veins, is the lack of LED a budget option or do you feel they aren't worth running?

[mistercakes]

safety does his own thing. i think it's almost entirely due to budget constraints.

-rob

[UnOrthodox Bird]

safety does his own thing. i think it's almost entirely due to budget constraints.

-rob

I figured as much, and with the recent jump in LED prices, I totally understand. Thanks for the clarification.

[Mr. Safety]

Definitely due to budget/lack of LED.

[MDHackbert]

Wanted to try this deck again now that it has had some dev time. What is the best version y'all have so far.

P.S.
Does this deck have a discord? The Storm discord seems to only have ANT/TES channels.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[mistercakes]

i have a discord for it, but it's dead! nobody uses it.

anyway, this is my latest version. it still needs to be tested. i haven't had the time:


// Hypothetical Ruby

// 60 Maindeck
// 12 Artifact
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

// 2 Enchantment
2 Pyromancer Ascension

// 12 Instant
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
4 Lightning Bolt

// 14 Land
11 Mountain
3 Ancient Tomb

// 20 Sorcery
2 Past in Flames
4 Rite of Flame
4 Act on Impulse
4 Burning Wish
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Gamble
1 Empty the Warrens


// 15 Sideboard
// 4 Artifact
SB: 2 Defense Grid
SB: 2 Silent Gravestone

// 11 Sorcery
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Reforge the Soul
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 By Force
SB: 1 Cave-In
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Gamble
SB: 1 Dark Petition


with grixis delver being the undisputed deck now for all the spikes, i think it's very reasonable to keep the 4 maindeck bolts. also could run 12-2 split on lands instead of 11-3. empty is also to help hedge on the grixis matchup. the dark petition is there for when you have an active pyromancer ascension or if you just have 6 mana and want to tutor for goblins, it's better than wasting the extra 2 mana and 1 storm to wish for empty.

i do like ahg113's list as well (the maindeck)

also scab-clan is still great if you're in a storm meta.

[UnOrthodox Bird]

Figured I would type up my latest weekly legacy at my lgs.

3 Rounds, so nothing too exciting, but I went 3-0, (6-1 in matches).

My list:

Sorcery (23)

4x Act on Impulse
4x Burning Wish
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Gamble
4x Gitaxian Probe
1x Hazoret's Undying Fury
3x Past in Flames
2x Reforge the Soul
4x Rite of Flame

Artifact (14)

2x Helm of Awakening
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
4x Ruby Medallion

Instant (9)

4x Manamorphose
4x Seething Song

Land (14)

3x Ancient Tomb
2x City of Traitors
9x Mountain

Sideboard (15)

2x Blood Moon
3x Defense Grid
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Firespout
1x Grapeshot
1x By Force
1x Past in Flames
1x Reforge the Soul
2x Scab-Clan Berserker
1x Shattering Spree
1x Tendrils of Agony

Round 1: Lands

Game 1:
I open with Ancient Tomb into Ruby Medallion. Opponent has to read the card, so I know at least my list is slightly unknown to him. He opens land into Mox Diamond Tranquil Thicket, so I know he is on lands and figure this will be an easier match. Turn 2 I git probe to confirm his deck and go for it. Act on Impulses + Seething Songs get me the mana I need, Manamorphose gets my black for Tendrils as he responds to my Burning Wish with Crop Rotation for Glacial Chasm.

Board:
2x Blood Moon for 1x Reforge the Soul 1x Past in Flames (Moon can hose their deck, and I don't need as much resilience vs lands).

Game 2:
I keep a weak opener that has a Medallion. Play it turn 1 of a petal. Opponent Krosan Grips it, followed up next turn with a Sphere of Resistance. Turn 3 I drop Helm of Awakening into Medallion into Blood Moon. Turn 4 I Burning Wish for By Force, casting it for x=3 on 2 Mox Diamond and the Sphere of Resistance. Opponent scoops it up.

1-0 for the night, 2-0 in games.


Round 2: Bug Delver

These two games happen quickly, as my opponent mull'd to 5 first game, 6 second game.

Game 1:
I open with Ruby Medallion, opponent asks if he is getting Dragon Stormed and I chuckle. He opens with USea Ponder. Second turn I land another Medallion, and he plays land and Hymn to Tourach. Next turn I Git Probe he 5, see no counter, and go for it.

Board:
3x Defense Grid 2x Blood Moon for 2x Reforge the Soul 1x Past in Flames 2x Helm of Awakening (The Helm don't help BUG too much, but I figured I don't want anything in his deck being easier to cast, namely Liliana and hardcasted FoW)

Game 2:
As I said, opponent mulls to 6. I keep a meh hand with Defense Grid and play it turn 1. Turn 2 I draw a second Grid and play it. Turn 3 I draw and play Blood Moon. This leaves him with just 2 DRS on board and me with a hand full of mana and no gas. I manage to cast all my Git Probes, and between that and his DRS activations, I go down to 4. On my turn 5 I Past in Flames, recast a probe andsee his hand is 2 land, brainstorm, FoW, and Jace(?). With his two DRS tapped and no way to cast his spells, through Defense Grid x2, I go off.

2-0 for the night, 4-0 in games.

Round 3: Miracles

Game 1:
I play Ruby Medallion after opting to be on the draw. I attempt to go off turn 2, but he counter spells which I saw off Gitaxian Probe. Turn 3 has me play another Ruby Medallion and go off when he whiffs a brainstorm. I make it to 19 storm and attempt to find my Grapeshot, only to realize I don't have it in my board (I maintain that the list I posted above is my list, I apparently have my Grapeshot in my edh deck and only brought a 14 card sideboard). I make 24 Goblins instead and kill in 3 turns. This was a huge misplay. Unaware of every card in Miracle, I never turned them all sideways. This gave my opponent a turn when he double Swords to Plowshare on two Goblins. Dumb mistake, but I get there anyway.

Board:
3x Defense Grid for 1x Reforge the Soul and 2x Helm of Awakening (A good number of cards in my opponents deck have a generic mana, and I don't want to reduce that, specifically Predict. I also don't want to draw a wheel, opting to cast it when I want off the Board.

Game 2:
I keep a solid opener, and attempt to go off turn 2. Opponent counters my Act on Impulse, then end of turn Surgical Extraction hits it. Next turn he counters my Burning Wish and at the end of turn he hits that with Surgical Extraction. With a lot of gas gone and 4 of my 5 mainboard win conditions, I feel a bit dismayed, but I have 5 castable cards in hand, and hitting my 1 Reforge, Hazoret's or Empty can get me back in the game. However, my opponent plays Jace on his turn 4 and fateseals me. When he gets up to 11 counters and then Surgical Extraction hits my LED in the bin, I scoop it up for game 3.

Game 3:
I keep a great opener after choosing to be on the play. I Gitaxian Probe and see a counter, and choose to run my Ruby Medallion out anyway. Opponent doesn't take the bait. Turn 2 I play another Medallion. Turn 3 I open with Rite of Flame into Act on Impulse, which he counters. Turn 4 I attempt to go off again, seeing one FoW in hand. He casts it to counter Hazoret's, but I am ready with Past in Flames, and 2x Seething Songs 1x Act 1x Hazoret's, Gitaxian Probe and a Manamorphose in the bin. The Act draws me into Burning Wish and 2x other cards. With Past, 2x Seething, Act, 2x cards off Act, Manamorphose, Gitaxian Probe, Burning Wish into Tendrils seals the Game.

3-0 for the night, 6-1 in games.


I am really happy with the outcome. Playing versus two blue decks and winning is always a treat. Obviously, as others have mentioned, the deck is pretty resilient, in that failing to go off one turn doesn't end the game. I feel I really need another wincon in the mainboard. I own all the cards for the Pyromancer's Ascension version of the deck, but have yet to play it. I'll probably bring the list in the comment above mine to my lgs next week.

All in all, it was a solid night and I walked away with a slightly overpriced foil Plow Under for my troubles (store credit winnings):
https://i.imgur.com/VOoGWs9.jpg

[mistercakes]

Thanks for the report. Glad to see the deck did well.

You may notice the pic for my avatar here. stunted growth.

This card is sweet.

I've been working on the ascension list a bit with goldfishing and hopefully will be able to jam some games this weekend. (finally)

[Mr. Safety]

Nice job! I have been working on a 4x Blood Moon/3x Empty the Warrens list for a few weeks now. It has been really great, but I really need to get Ancient Tombs! Crystal Vein gets me t1 Medallions and Moons...but if it's my only land, it has been a slog to get to another mana source. So even before I get Lion's Eye Diamonds, I really need 3x Ancient Tomb.

[mistercakes]

the list i've been testing is the same as the one i posted a few posts back, but with a 3rd ascension as the 61st card.

[mistercakes]

Weekly was canceled due to release tourney for new set.

Did still get to jam about 6 games vs grixis delver (I think he won one game)

A few games against 4c value deck, went about 50/50

Then played 2 games vs miracles. First game I dumped a hand into wish for Warrens but he had the force.

Game 2 he had Counterbalance. I had 2 ascension but couldn't get the 2nd counter. Lost to a mentor clock of 2 turns once it came down.

Overall pretty pleased with the deck, although I will likely cut the 2 grids for something more aggressive against control decks. (I think the tempo matchups are favorable)

I felt like silent gravestone was pretty good. Maybe it's worth it to have 2 sb Reforge to help fuel the deck when it feels like you've been locked out by the control decks. Hard to say, but it likely can help enable pyromancer, or draw into one when necessary.

[ronco]

If you have an ascension online and you play a reforge, can you cast instants between the copy and the original resolutions? The copy would resolve with the original still on the stack, right?

[owerbart]

Why are you guys so sold on LED? I've been playing a list posted here (3 hazoret, 3 reforge the soul, 2 act on impulse, 4 helm of obedience.) and for me the main concern with this deck should be to get your engine going rather than doing fancy things with LED. Can someone explain why did you drop hazoret's undying fury to a number less than 4 copies? That card is the true big money of the deck. I'm also playing 3 etw main 1 side, so you get much more payoff cards that has been the reason why i was mulling so many hands, because i had mana but nothing to do with it. I own a playset of LEDs and to me it is a card that plays on a different angle of what this deck tries to do.

[mistercakes]

Up to you how you want to play the deck.

Nothing wrong with the brute force method.

[UnOrthodox Bird]

Why are you guys so sold on LED? I've been playing a list posted here (3 hazoret, 3 reforge the soul, 2 act on impulse, 4 helm of obedience.) and for me the main concern with this deck should be to get your engine going rather than doing fancy things with LED. Can someone explain why did you drop hazoret's undying fury to a number less than 4 copies? That card is the true big money of the deck. I'm also playing 3 etw main 1 side, so you get much more payoff cards that has been the reason why i was mulling so many hands, because i had mana but nothing to do with it. I own a playset of LEDs and to me it is a card that plays on a different angle of what this deck tries to do.

I disagree, in that aggressive openers with wheel or AoI are made better with LED. It just flat out produces the most mana. At the same, when you chain 2-3 AoI and all your castables are in exile, you can play out and LED or two to generate more mana. I just don't get how you can be opposed to it when you play reforge, hazoret, AoI, and have past in flames. It is amazing with past in flames.

As for hazoret's, I still love the card and have a copy in my mainboard, but it whiffs often enough that I just don't want multiples. I already count copies between hazoret's, reforge, and past in flames. Wouldn't want to cut much for hazoret's.

But yeah, LED just seems vastly superior in a deck where most of the draw power comes from AoI, or the few lists that also run Commune with Lava. It just seems like you are running a different deck. LED is meant to be abused with AoI, and most people aren't running 3 reforge maindeck, or 4 helm. You're light on AoI and big on the cost reducers (I haven't seen a list with more than 6 in a while), so clearly LED will play differently.

[mistercakes]

You can still play 4 led even in a high reduction version. Space is limited in that so you'd have to cut the probes entirely.

I'm still not sure what version would be best. They both have their merits.

For me the biggest selling point on the ascension build is running the bolts.

If youre in a heavy storm/snt/combo meta, then running the helms builds are probably not ideal.

If you're playing vs a heavy Czech pile/miracles meta, the helms are also potentially a liability.

for reference, here is my all in list:


// 60 Maindeck
// 16 Artifact
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Helm of Awakening
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

// 3 Creature
3 Simian Spirit Guide

// 8 Instant
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose

// 12 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
7 Mountain
1 City of Traitors

// 21 Sorcery
4 Rite of Flame
2 Hazoret's Undying Fury
3 Reforge the Soul
3 Past in Flames
4 Act on Impulse
4 Burning Wish
1 Gamble


// 15 Sideboard
// 3 Creature
SB: 3 Scab-Clan Berserker

// 2 Instant
SB: 2 Abrade

// 10 Sorcery
SB: 1 Reforge the Soul
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Gamble
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 By Force
SB: 1 Cave-In
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Dark Petition

[solnox]

Theres 50 pages on this thing. good golly

[mistercakes]

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2018-05-12

APATHETICPLAYER

on here at all?

happy to see a 5-0! good to see trying some other stuff. i hadn't tried the rite of flame as a wish target since when i first brewed the deck. maybe i should try it again.

what were your matchups? (hopefully it's someone on here)

[mistercakes]

pretty excited to see the blood moon deck win the GP. maybe this will uptick the red stompy decks, which this deck can generally do pretty well against.

still undetermined which version would be best, but playing vs so many dead cards maindeck is great.


Planeswalker (2)
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Creature (15)
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Hazoret the Fervent
2 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
Sorcery (4)
4 Fiery Confluence
Artifact (14)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
4 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Trinisphere

8 moon effects, 4 bridge, and all their win cons. confluence can be annoying, and trinisphere is still fantastic. chalice only hits minimally when it's for 1.

might be the one matchup where we are actually better than traditional storm lists game 1. (and any post sb game on the draw)

[mort47]

After having the deck proxied for ages, I finally bought all the remaining pieces at GP Birmingham last weekend. I was there for side events so I played a few games in Turbo Town. I didn't have time to finish any except the first one because draft events fired either for myself or opponent but it went pretty well.

Burn: 2-1
Stoneblade: 1-0
Forgemaster MUD: 1-1
Mono B Control/Pox: 1-0

Deck is legit. This is the non-LED brute-force version with just some bolts as interaction and both By Force and Shattering Spree in the wishboard. I don't have a full list to hand but it won't be much different to the last version I posted whenever that was. In game one against MUD I was successfully comboing off through Trinisphere with Pyromancer Ascension online until I accidentally killed myself with Gitaxian Probe. Game 3 against burn was a turn one Tendrils win. The games with MUD were largely recurring artifact removal, giving me a few turns to find all the pieces after blowing through two Burning Wish in three turns.

This is the first time I've ever played legacy and I had a great time. After the turn one win I realised both games either side of us had stopped to watch and loads of people asked questions about the deck afterwards. I told them where I found it so we'll see if any turn up. I kind of wish I'd entered the legacy main event at the GP rather than doing limited side events as there's not going to be another legacy GP in this country for a while now (I assume). I didn't expect that the deck would actually be competitive. It's only a small sample size and it's regular REL, but it's still very positive.

Thanks again, mistercakes and others on this thread, for giving me my first taste of legacy.

[.Ix]

I purchased the remaining cards for a Dragonstorm variant, spoiler, it's not very good lol. I'm currently going old extended tech with Lotus Blooms, which are abysmally slow by legacy standards (turn 4 combo.) Getting to 9 mana however is quite difficult, and when you consider Burning Wish as well it's at least 10 mana. That means we still need Ruby's and Past in Flames to get to a high enough mana count...and at that point you can win with Tendrils, EtW, or Grapeshot. So I'm playing 4 maindeck Blood Moons as plan #1, which should buy time to get to turn 4.

Here is my testing list, it's quite awkward, but it does what its supposed to do by turn 4.

Dragonstorm Moon

3x Dragonstorm
4x Burning Wish
4x Thundermaw Hellkite
3x Bogardan Hellkite

4x Lotus Bloom
4x Lotus Petal
4x Ruby Medallion
4x Rite of Flame
4x Desperate Ritual
4x Seething Song
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Blood Moon

4x Crystal Vein
9x Mountain

Sideboard
3x Empty the Warrens
1x Dragonstorm
1x Past in Flames
1x Grapeshot
1x Pyroclasm
2x Scab-Clan Berserker
2x Tormod's Crypt
4x Pyroblast


Hardcasting Dragons is not unreasonable, especially after Blood Moon and several turns to draw extra mana. I think for now the SSG's are necessary to really push for a t1 Moon. I think boarding in Empty the Warrens and other cards in cases where Blood Moon is bad is a decent plan, considering it would need a faster combo turn than t4.

Why are you playing Lotus Blooms? Just wondering what your reasoning for that is. I'd think Pyretic Rituals are just better.

To me, it looks like Scourge of Valkas are better than Bogardan hellkites. You still kill with 4 storm (1 scourge and 3 thundermaw) and they are a lot more castable. I'm also playing Faithless Looting, Tormenting Voice, and Mizzix's Mastery. Makes it a lot easier to hit Dragonstorm. I still need to do proper testing with the list, but it's really not so terrible.

[mistercakes]

After having the deck proxied for ages, I finally bought all the remaining pieces at GP Birmingham last weekend. I was there for side events so I played a few games in Turbo Town. I didn't have time to finish any except the first one because draft events fired either for myself or opponent but it went pretty well.

Burn: 2-1
Stoneblade: 1-0
Forgemaster MUD: 1-1
Mono B Control/Pox: 1-0

Deck is legit. This is the non-LED brute-force version with just some bolts as interaction and both By Force and Shattering Spree in the wishboard. I don't have a full list to hand but it won't be much different to the last version I posted whenever that was. In game one against MUD I was successfully comboing off through Trinisphere with Pyromancer Ascension online until I accidentally killed myself with Gitaxian Probe. Game 3 against burn was a turn one Tendrils win. The games with MUD were largely recurring artifact removal, giving me a few turns to find all the pieces after blowing through two Burning Wish in three turns.

This is the first time I've ever played legacy and I had a great time. After the turn one win I realised both games either side of us had stopped to watch and loads of people asked questions about the deck afterwards. I told them where I found it so we'll see if any turn up. I kind of wish I'd entered the legacy main event at the GP rather than doing limited side events as there's not going to be another legacy GP in this country for a while now (I assume). I didn't expect that the deck would actually be competitive. It's only a small sample size and it's regular REL, but it's still very positive.

Thanks again, mistercakes and others on this thread, for giving me my first taste of legacy.

glad to hear you checked out the pyromancer ascension + bolt list. pretty funny that even in those lists you still have the core of the deck that makes it capable for turn 1 wins. the deck is super fun, you just have to be honest with yourself at times since we aren't using blue for consistency you will have some games where you just don't get the combination of cards needed.

hopefully next europe legacy gp will be on the mainland and i'll get over to it.

[mort47]

glad to hear you checked out the pyromancer ascension + bolt list. pretty funny that even in those lists you still have the core of the deck that makes it capable for turn 1 wins. the deck is super fun, you just have to be honest with yourself at times since we aren't using blue for consistency you will have some games where you just don't get the combination of cards needed.

It's a scrappy little deck. Even in games without all the pieces I was able to play a more interactive game and keep my opponent's threats at bay until I drew into what I needed. One opponent Forced a card draw spell and I just kept going a couple of turns later. Pyromancer Ascension is super flexible as well. I ran it initially as Ruby 5 and 6 but it also makes spells harder to counter, doubles up your removal and lets you combo off through Trinisphere (I don't mind paying three mana to get ten back) or Chalice.

Ascension is bad in multiples though so I'm sticking at two. Bolt, while sometimes necessary, I think is more likely to make this build a bit less consistent so I'm only playing two of those as well. Not totally sure about that though, probably depends on the meta.

Here's my list:

// Main
4 Act on Impulse
3 Ancient Tomb
2 Bedlam Reveler
4 Burning Wish
3 Desperate Ritual
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Guttersnipe
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Lotus Petal
4 Manamorphose
11 Mountain
3 Past in Flames
2 Pyromancer Ascension
4 Rite of Flame
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Seething Song

//Sideboard
1 By Force
2 Defense Grid
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
1 Hazoret's Undying Fury
1 Past in Flames
1 Pyroclasm
1 Reforge the Soul
2 Scab-Clan Berserker
1 Shattering Spree
2 Silent Gravestone
1 Tendrils of Agony

Oh and unrelated good news because I'm excited. I asked my LGS about a legacy event and he said he didn't think he'd seen anyone play legacy there but I could try and drum up some interest. I asked around and we're planning an event! A few people from out of town expressed interest and the LGS owner has an LED lying around which he's willing to offer up as first prize (and I'd totally try it in the deck as a one-of). There's very little legacy in the UK and even less in North Wales where I am so I'm really hoping we can throw together a good event.

[Mr. Safety]

Page 2 on new/dev?!?!? Come on guys, we can do better than that!

I am going to test the brute-force approach, dropping the Blood Moons for a full set of HUF. I haven't tried it in a while, but I think it could be good. Without LED I need a way to cheat on mana costs, and this does it.

[mistercakes]

http://mythicspoiler.com/bbd/cards/sentineltower.jpg

this is interesting, dunno how good it is. it feels like overkill, but maybe a singleton is pretty cool. it functions as a guttersnipe that doesn't die to bolt. (3 spells = 6 dmg), with this card, 3 spells = 7 damage.

in any case, i'm really happy they're printing a storm style card after explaining how storm was such a mistake. could justify using helms a bit more though now.

something like this is lethal:

seething song, burning wish, past in flames
then flashback all 3.

(that's 15 damage)

if you have any other spell in the graveyard it's lethal, assuming you can cast everything.

[ReAnimator]

The great thing about this card is it triggers off of opponents counterspells and brainstorms on your turn, so it's a bit of a defence grid, i think that makes it worth trying out at least. Seems less fragile than Guttersnipe.

[mistercakes]

excellent point, i missed that.

it's probably best as a sb card vs decks like miracles. (where they have a ton of countermagic. i'd much rather run this over defense grid.)

(edit, also 100k views on the thread in less than a year. that's pretty sweet!)

[Mr. Safety]

I'll be grabbing a set of these, at least for testing purposes. I think it's probably a sideboard option, similar to Guttersnipe. I like that it's resilient to removal, even abrupt decay, but I don't like that it's 4 mana and *not* red for Ruby Medallion. We just have to decide if the Helms are justified or if they offset the gain by providing a mana boost for opponents.

[ReAnimator]

https://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/168/241/636627692275453751.png

So this thing is just absurd right?

[Glass House]

Oh yeah, I think this is it. This might just be the boost we needed. It's as if someone at WotC thought "that mono red storm deck looks pretty cool, let's throw them a bone."

[ReAnimator]

Oh yeah, I think this is it. This might just be the boost we needed. It's as if someone at WotC thought "that mono red storm deck looks pretty cool, let's throw them a bone."

Right?


This is a pyromancers Ascension that you don't need to work hard at to get on line and can be fetched with Burning Wish.

It turns Manamorphose and Probe into completely absurd cards as well.

If you cast a second one in a turn all your spells are copied x3 times.

The big question is if you splash black or not or stick to mono red.

I think this fundamentally changes this deck in a significant way, it also lets you avoid graveyard hate if you need too.

Might not play well with LED but that might be ok.

[Mr. Safety]

https://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/168/241/636627692275453751.png

So this thing is just absurd right?

Pretty sure this is exactly what the deck needed. Doubling draw triggers from GitProbe, double mana/draw from Manamorphose, getting 2 copies of Hazoret's Undying fury...this deck could already combo off with a low threshold, this makes it even easier.

Welcome to the new age of Ruby Storm boys. Get your sets now!

EDIT: This card single-handedly makes Pyro Ascension obsolete btw...

[Mr. Safety]

Right?


This is a pyromancers Ascension that you don't need to work hard at to get on line and can be fetched with Burning Wish.

It turns Manamorphose and Probe into completely absurd cards as well.

If you cast a second one in a turn all your spells are copied x3 times.

The big question is if you splash black or not or stick to mono red.

I think this fundamentally changes this deck in a significant way, it also lets you avoid graveyard hate if you need too.

Might not play well with LED but that might be ok.

Jesus.Fucking.Christ. I didn't even realize it was a sorcery for Burning Wish. I can answer your black splash question: completely unnecessary at this point. There are now 3 complete engines to make the deck work: Hazoret's Undying Fury, Past in Flames, and now this. Who needs Brainstorm when you have up to 12 copies of your key engine card, making it likely you'll get one in your opener a high percentage of the time? No more durdles, lets get right to t2 loops that make judges cry.

[Knighthawk]

https://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/168/241/636627692275453751.png

So this thing is just absurd right?

I was just coming here to post that, glad to see I was beaten to the punch. This Is awesome and I can't wait to see Act on Impulse doubled.

Though upon reading it there is a potential issue. It doubles opponents spells as well. Brainstorm into force or dear god Flusterstorm could be a headache, or potentially worth it.

First guess? Make enough room to try them main, and then depending on how that goes find out if it's a wish only card, a 2/4 of, or for a different deck entirely. Ur storm with epic experiment? Etc.


That artifact is pretty nifty too.

[compacta_d]

OOH I'm definitely taking this deck for a whirl again with these hot new cards.


Also going to try Brain Freeze. Not sure why I didn't think of it before, but with decent mana it basically digs for Past In Flames real hard. Can also be a win condition mixed in with some Reforges.

edit- I sold off my LEDS though. I am on poor man's version.

Though with that new Tower you WANT spells not rocks.

[Mr. Safety]

OOH I'm definitely taking this deck for a whirl again with these hot new cards.


Also going to try Brain Freeze. Not sure why I didn't think of it before, but with decent mana it basically digs for Past In Flames real hard. Can also be a win condition mixed in with some Reforges.

I may be wrong, but I don't think any splash is needed for this deck anymore. How are we *not* getting absurd storm counts and finishing with Grapeshot easily?

Oh and BTW, Hazoret's can flip this and cast it as well...

EDIT: Preordered my set from SCG. I don't normally do this, but damn...

[Mr. Safety]

I was just coming here to post that, glad to see I was beaten to the punch. This Is awesome and I can't wait to see Act on Impulse doubled.

Though upon reading it there is a potential issue. It doubles opponents spells as well. Brainstorm into force or dear god Flusterstorm could be a headache, or potentially worth it.

First guess? Make enough room to try them main, and then depending on how that goes find out if it's a wish only card, a 2/4 of, or for a different deck entirely. Ur storm with epic experiment? Etc.


That artifact is pretty nifty too.

In my list it will take the place of some number of Empty the Warrens, and definitely x1 in the sideboard FOR SURE.

[Manroe]

I like both of these for this deck, just gotta make em fit.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk

[compacta_d]

I still think Tendrils is best wincon.

Deck can fizzle with grapeshot. Not likely but I've had it happen. I've also had it happen where grapeshot got me out of a bind Tendrils would NOT have. New Tower is definitely an amazing 4 drop (ahem 2-3 drop) that can turn a probe into an Urza's Rage.

I think a single U mana is easy enough to generate and can add consistency with Past in Flames. Dig for PIF, then storm out mill opponent. Wheel's help.

[Mr. Safety]

I still think Tendrils is best wincon.

Deck can fizzle with grapeshot. Not likely but I've had it happen. I've also had it happen where grapeshot got me out of a bind Tendrils would NOT have. New Tower is definitely an amazing 4 drop (ahem 2-3 drop) that can turn a probe into an Urza's Rage.

I think a single U mana is easy enough to generate and can add consistency with Past in Flames. Dig for PIF, then storm out mill opponent. Wheel's help.

Agreed, I wasn't considering Tendrils a black splash. I now see you don't see Freeze as a blue splash really, either. I've been posting like crazy, this new card has my blood up.

I just mean we don't need to fool around with Dark Petition or other non-win-condition off-color cards. Win conditions that Manamorphose and Lotus Petal facilitate are fine (Tendrils, Brain Freeze, etc.) but we have plenty of engines to make the deck run now.

[Glass House]

I think Overmaster is worth revisiting, because we really want Bonus Round to resolve.

[ReAnimator]

I think Overmaster is worth revisiting, because we really want Bonus Round to resolve.

Worth testing for sure.





Desperate Ritual's stock goes way up with Bonus Round as well, if you can splice it, you get 12 mana, which is just nuts.

Could be that a more ritual based version with less Petals and LED's is the correct way to go.

[ReAnimator]

Though upon reading it there is a potential issue. It doubles opponents spells as well. Brainstorm into force or dear god Flusterstorm could be a headache, or potentially worth it.

If they have a counter they have to counter the Bonus Round, if you've already resolved it, their counter counters the two copies you already made, so it won't be enough to really hinder you at all. That's my gut feeling anyway. It's essentially the same, instead of one counter for one threat, you have 2 counters for 2 threats so the math isn't really different.

[mistercakes]

i think the new cards can be tested. not sure if it makes ascension obsolete per say. you still need to cast this card first, and then resolve a mana spell immediately after. vs counter magic this is a lot of mana invested in for the first spell.

if i'm testing the new cards it would be something like this:



// 60 Maindeck
// 19 Artifact
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Sentinel Tower
3 Helm of Awakening

// 8 Instant
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose

// 14 Land
10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb

// 19 Sorcery
2 Past in Flames
4 Rite of Flame
4 Act on Impulse
4 Burning Wish
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Gamble


// 15 Sideboard
// 2 Artifact
SB: 2 Silent Gravestone

// 2 Instant
SB: 1 Abrade

// 12 Sorcery
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Bonus Round
SB: 1 Reforge the Soul
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 By Force
SB: 1 Cave-In
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Gamble
SB: 1 Dark Petition


you could also consider running 1 reiterate as it combos with a rock out for

RR3 + casting cost of seething song with a rock out (1R). this allows you to cast seething song, copy it while it's on the stack, resolve the reiterate with buyback, and copy the seething song over and over again. this will net you 0 mana overall, but will kill with this card out or something like guttersnipe. (it's nothing new, but it's fun)

if i'm looking to copy my spells, i'm pretty sure this new spell can fit as a wish target, but i'm not sure it makes it to the main deck.

i suppose you can run some desperate rituals over the LED's, but i like being able to play a little more risky with AoI. this allows me to cast it blind and hope to hit petals/led's instead of only having petals as an out for an initial mana source.

anyway. really excited there's some new things to test and i hope other people can put in some effort, as i'm still finding it difficult to find time to play.

as an aside the deck has still come a long way!

here's my original notes from last june:

4 rite of flame
4 desperate ritual
4 seething song
2 pyretic ritual
4 manamorphose
4 ruby medallion
4 hazoret's undying fury
4 pyromancer ascension
3 past in flames
4 grapeshot
3 lightning bolt
2 reforge the soul
4 lotus petal
14 lands

[Mr. Safety]

I think Overmaster is worth revisiting, because we really want Bonus Round to resolve.

I agree. Like all storm decks, this one is based on critical mass. So rather than have protection, we can just jam engines until one resolves...or we can get our cantrip count higher (especially when Overmaster draws us 2+ cards with Bonus Round.) I really want to jam a full set of Overmaster, and I probably will sacrifice slots to Empty the Warrens to make it work. I might even just go down to 1x Warrens in the sideboard.

Rough list:

4x Rite of Flame
3x Desperate Ritual
4x Seething Song

4x Ruby Medallion
1x Helm of Awakening

4x Act on Impulse
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Manamorphose
2x Overmaster

4x Burning Wish
3x Past in Flames
2x Bonus Round
3x Hazoret's Undying Fury

4x Crystal Vein
10x Mountain

Sideboard
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Grapeshot
1x Reforge the Soul
1x Bonus Round
1x Pyroclasm
1x By Force
1x Cave-In
3x Guttersnipe
2x Scab-Clan Berserker
2x Pyroblast


I think the potential for HUF to get out of hand is worth the 3 copies. Maybe only 2, but I've been meaning to test more copies lately anyways. I can see whiffing a little on 4 cards from HUF, but I can't see that happening too often with 8 free spells. Imagine flipping a Bonus Round with HUF, stacking it on top, and getting double on the other 3 potential spells.

I just want to jam engines, and for that reason I think only 2 Overmaster is needed. This deck is pure gas, everything is either mana, draw, or a kill condition.

[mistercakes]

Imagine flipping a Bonus Round with HUF, stacking it on top, and getting double on the other 3 potential spells.


this doesn't work. the other 3 spells would need to be put on the stack after the bonus round resolves. they are all going on the stack at the same time (in an order you prefer).

[Glass House]

Not that this matters in practice because if you resolve a Bonus Round you've pretty much already won, but for the sake of amusement how many copies do you get for each subsequent Bonus Round? 1 BR = 1 copy; 2 BR = 3 copies?; 3 BR = 7 copies?; 4 BR = 15 copies?

[mistercakes]

i think it's best to map out how you think this card will actually play out. i'm not sure it's so great! (also imagine playing vs somebody, not just a goldfish).

[Glass House]

Sure, we have to see it in real games, but on my few goldfishes so far it's been obscene.

[mistercakes]

can you go through some lines of play for me? it seems every line almost requires a seething song to start.

[Glass House]

As ReAnimator pointed out, Desperate Ritual becomes really valuable. I'm running 3 rituals, no LED's.
You can go T1 Ancient Tomb -> Medallion, T2 Mountain -> Desperate Ritual -> Bonus Round -> Manamorphose. draw 2 and gain 4 mana and go on from there.

[mistercakes]

that's a decent line. best of luck. i'm happy with whatever configuration of this deck works.

(i'll test with it too, it could be fun if nothing else)

if i test it, it will be something like this:

// 60 Maindeck
// 11 Artifact
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Lotus Petal
3 Helm of Awakening

// 12 Instant
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
4 Desperate Ritual

// 14 Land
10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb

// 23 Sorcery
2 Past in Flames
4 Rite of Flame
4 Act on Impulse
4 Burning Wish
2 Hazoret’s Undying Fury
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Bonus Round


// 15 Sideboard
// 2 Artifact
SB: 2 Silent Gravestone

// 1 Instant
SB: 1 Abrade

// 12 Sorcery
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Bonus Round
SB: 1 Reforge the Soul
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 By Force
SB: 1 Cave-In
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Gamble
SB: 1 Dark Petition

[ReAnimator]

@Mistercakes

That list is essentially exactly what i was thinking in my head.

I'm going to try to build it up tonight or tomorrow and see how it goes.

[ReAnimator]

I did some gold fishing. Bonus round really rewards you for playing cantrips, so i put mistercakes list from above, but with -2 Hazoret's Fury +2 Overmaster together.
I'm not sure that's enough, to go off with it properly you really need a bunch of cantrips or a PIF in the sequence to get double off of them. Might try Faithless again, or something else like Cathartic Reunion in there, something to get deeper.

I was able to go off just with Bonus Round a couple of times, when i had a morphose and probe.

[mistercakes]

I still like pyromancer ascension since that build runs 4 bolts and then you don't need to run Helm, which is not ideal especially when including LED in the list.

[hadhod]

maybe we can test this one:

https://cdn1.mtggoldfish.com/images/gf/Bonus%2BRound%2B%255BBBD%255D.jpg

Seems pretty strong!
EDIT: i see now that card was found yet xD

another card to test is Mana Flare, 'cause i think it's the same of helm, but better storming.

[mistercakes]

sb isn't optimal yet.

this is what i have been happy goldfishing with so far:


// 60 Maindeck
// 10 Artifact
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Lotus Petal
3 Helm of Awakening

// 12 Instant
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
4 Desperate Ritual

// 14 Land
10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb

// 24 Sorcery
2 Past in Flames
4 Rite of Flame
4 Act on Impulse
4 Burning Wish
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Bonus Round
2 Faithless Looting


// 15 Sideboard
// 2 Instant
SB: 2 Abrade

// 13 Sorcery
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Reforge the Soul
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 By Force
SB: 1 Cave-In
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Gamble
SB: 1 Dark Petition
SB: 1 Bonus Round
SB: 1 Banefire


also am considering a singleton gamble in the main over a faithless.

(banefire is pretty interesting, if you have a copy you only need to do it for 10, which isn't really so hard. it's probably overkill but it does get around glacial chasm for red and it will stop them if somehow they are able to counter your win con. it will very likely get cut, but putting it out there. could also very be a hazoret's in the sb.)

for an LED build i'd go with this:

// 60 Maindeck
// 12 Artifact
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

// 12 Instant
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
4 Desperate Ritual

// 14 Land
10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb

// 22 Sorcery
1 Past in Flames
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Rite of Flame
4 Act on Impulse
4 Burning Wish
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Bonus Round
1 Faithless Looting
1 Gamble


// 15 Sideboard
// 15 Sorcery
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Reforge the Soul
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Fiery Gambit
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 By Force
SB: 1 Cave-In
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Gamble
SB: 1 Dark Petition
SB: 1 Bonus Round
SB: 1 Banefire
SB: 1 Gitaxian Probe


it's possible cutting 1 pyroclasm or banefire could make sense to squeeze in a hull breach.

also to answer this:
Not that this matters in practice because if you resolve a Bonus Round you've pretty much already won, but for the sake of amusement how many copies do you get for each subsequent Bonus Round? 1 BR = 1 copy; 2 BR = 3 copies?; 3 BR = 7 copies?; 4 BR = 15 copies?

it's the same as a binary sequence, but the number of copies will be one less that value.

1,2,4,8,16,32,64,128,256,512

you cast the first one and you get:
1 copy
3 copies
7 copies
15 copies
31 copies
63 copies
127 copies
255 copies

(after that you can't flash any more back).

[MDHackbert]

You can go Deeper with Shreds of Sanity and Pull From Eternity

[Mr. Safety]

sb isn't optimal yet.

this is what i have been happy goldfishing with so far:


// 60 Maindeck
// 10 Artifact
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Lotus Petal
3 Helm of Awakening

// 12 Instant
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
4 Desperate Ritual

// 14 Land
10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb

// 24 Sorcery
2 Past in Flames
4 Rite of Flame
4 Act on Impulse
4 Burning Wish
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Bonus Round
2 Faithless Looting


// 15 Sideboard
// 2 Instant
SB: 2 Abrade

// 13 Sorcery
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Reforge the Soul
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 By Force
SB: 1 Cave-In
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Gamble
SB: 1 Dark Petition
SB: 1 Bonus Round
SB: 1 Banefire


also am considering a singleton gamble in the main over a faithless.

(banefire is pretty interesting, if you have a copy you only need to do it for 10, which isn't really so hard. it's probably overkill but it does get around glacial chasm for red and it will stop them if somehow they are able to counter your win con. it will very likely get cut, but putting it out there. could also very be a hazoret's in the sb.)

for an LED build i'd go with this:

// 60 Maindeck
// 12 Artifact
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

// 12 Instant
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
4 Desperate Ritual

// 14 Land
10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb

// 22 Sorcery
1 Past in Flames
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Rite of Flame
4 Act on Impulse
4 Burning Wish
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Bonus Round
1 Faithless Looting
1 Gamble


// 15 Sideboard
// 15 Sorcery
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Reforge the Soul
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Fiery Gambit
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 By Force
SB: 1 Cave-In
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Gamble
SB: 1 Dark Petition
SB: 1 Bonus Round
SB: 1 Banefire
SB: 1 Gitaxian Probe


it's possible cutting 1 pyroclasm or banefire could make sense to squeeze in a hull breach.

also to answer this:
Not that this matters in practice because if you resolve a Bonus Round you've pretty much already won, but for the sake of amusement how many copies do you get for each subsequent Bonus Round? 1 BR = 1 copy; 2 BR = 3 copies?; 3 BR = 7 copies?; 4 BR = 15 copies?

it's the same as a binary sequence, but the number of copies will be one less that value.

1,2,4,8,16,32,64,128,256,512

you cast the first one and you get:
1 copy
3 copies
7 copies
15 copies
31 copies
63 copies
127 copies
255 copies

(after that you can't flash any more back).

My turn to correct: I don't think x values carry over when copied, ie banefire for 10 would get copied but you would need to sink x in again. I think this is how x spells work when copied.

[alderon666]

My turn to correct: I don't think x values carry over when copied, ie banefire for 10 would get copied but you would need to sink x in again. I think this is how x spells work when copied.

It does. Ruling from Twincast.

1/10/2009 If the spell Twincast copies has an X whose value was determined as it was cast (like Earthquake does), the copy has the same value of X.



If you decide to play 3x Bonus Round in your deck, you should maximize spells that are good/cheap to cast after you resolve a Bonus Round.

4x Manamorphose
4x Gitaxian Probe
3-4x Faithless Looting

And you should stay away from stuff that costs a lot of mana, that you want to cast after Bonus Round, like Act on Impulse and Hazoret’s Undying Fury.
You would need to cast a ritual > Bonus Round > Act on Impulse > ritual.
And once your Burning Wishs start getting doubled, you can get a card draw spell and a finisher with a single wish.

[Misdirection]

If they have a counter they have to counter the Bonus Round, if you've already resolved it, their counter counters the two copies you already made, so it won't be enough to really hinder you at all. That's my gut feeling anyway. It's essentially the same, instead of one counter for one threat, you have 2 counters for 2 threats so the math isn't really different.
Yes, in that case, suppose the opponent has just one FOW, they can let bonus round resolves and counter the two copies of the real pay off card?

Though opponent should counter bonus round anyway in the first place

[mistercakes]

What's important here is that it's another must counter kind of spell. This is the method the deck tries to rely on, brute forcing through instead of using minimal business spells with discard and cantrips.

[alderon666]

1 Cathartic Reunion


Should probably play one of these in the SB. When you cast a doubled Burning Wish, you can get Past in Flames and Cathartic Reunion. Play Cathartic Reunion discarding PiF and something else, draw 6 and have PiF on the graveyard.

[Mr. Safety]

What's important here is that it's another must counter kind of spell. This is the method the deck tries to rely on, brute forcing through instead of using minimal business spells with discard and cantrips.

Totally agree; that's why I like the fact that this deck has so many engine cards it can rely on.

[mistercakes]

1 Cathartic Reunion


Should probably play one of these in the SB. When you cast a doubled Burning Wish, you can get Past in Flames and Cathartic Reunion. Play Cathartic Reunion discarding PiF and something else, draw 6 and have PiF on the graveyard.

If you want to dig the most you should either consider faithless looting, or goblin lore/control of the court.

Cathartic reunion requires you to discard 2, and you may not have this.

[alderon666]

If you want to dig the most you should either consider faithless looting, or goblin lore/control of the court.

Cathartic reunion requires you to discard 2, and you may not have this.

Yeah, but the cards you mentioned generate little to no card advantage.

Goblin Lore is neutral when cast once, if you copy it, it generates +1 CA.
Faithless Looting never generates any CA, only filters and fills graveyard.

Cathartic Reunion cast once is neutral, but when copied generates +3 CA.

[Glass House]

Why not use Tormenting Voice? Not as crazy as Reunion but requiring only 1 discard instead of 2 makes it less likely to get stuck in hand (or exile).

[mistercakes]

If you have a rock out, and you are using this bonus round first. Cast burning wish for lore + pif. Assuming you still have enough mana left over its one of the better ways to dig.

If you want a guaranteed method what has worked for me in goldfishing is getting

Past in Flames + gamble.

Cast gamble, get manamorphose. Reveal at random, if you don't reveal manamorphose cast it before the 2nd gamble resolves. If this happens there's a lot of different lines of play. If it doesn't work then you can try once more.

If you whiff both times there's still a chance you have enough mana to cast pif as it should only cost 2r with a rock in play. Then you only need r to get back into the game with flashing back.

Tldr, you don't need to play any of the other whacky cards out of the sb. Gamble is enough.

[raid]

Hallo,

I was wondering if any of you are exploring the possibility of the old modern Unstorm Deck for Legacy.

With

4x Bonus Round
4x Pyromancer Ascension

we have now 8 Combo Pieces that produce infintie mana/Storm with

2x Manamorphose
2x Noxious Revival

looping.

There´s also the possibility of Pirate´s Pillage + Manarock acting as another Manamorphose.

The Modern List was Red/Blue playing a lot of cantrips which in Legacy would probably be just a worse Omniscience Deck, so i tried going with Rituals and Past in Flames, but the lack of good cantrips is really hurting and didnt feel so great goldfishing.

If any of you had any luck going this direction i would be interested to hear. :)

[mistercakes]

No need to run cards like noxious revival.

[owerbart]

Ok so a card from M19 got spoiled and looks really good as a wish option:

Apex of Power 7RRR
Exile the top seven cards of your library. Until end of turn, you may cast nonland cards revealed this way. If this spell was casted from your hand, add 10 mana of any color.
What do you think?

[ReAnimator]

It's super cool and epic, but i don't think you would tutor for this over other options almost ever. A draw 7, PIF or ETW are all going to be better in that spot for the most part i would think.

[mistercakes]

i love that this is a card, but it's just not strong enough compared to other cards.

btw after more goldfishing, i think this is where i've arrived. there's still variance just like all builds of this deck.


// 60 Maindeck
// 11 Artifact
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Lotus Petal
3 Helm of Awakening

// 12 Instant
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
4 Desperate Ritual

// 14 Land
10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb

// 23 Sorcery
2 Past in Flames
3 Rite of Flame
4 Act on Impulse
4 Burning Wish
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Bonus Round
3 Hazoret's Undying Fury
1 Gamble


// 15 Sideboard
// 15 Sorcery
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Reforge the Soul
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 By Force
SB: 1 Cave-In
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Gamble
SB: 1 Dark Petition
SB: 1 Bonus Round
SB: 1 Banefire
SB: 1 Rite of Flame
SB: 1 Gitaxian Probe


The dark petition can prob be something else.

[Mr. Safety]

Chandra, Pyromaster and Chandra, Torch of Defiance are probably both better than the M19 card. Pyro lets you get 3 copies of a card with ultimate, lets you 'draw' an extra card each turn, and can ping off small creatures. ToD adds mana, filtering, creature removal, and an ultimate that straight out wins the game with only 3-4 spells cast. Both are only 4 mana, this new card is what, 10? Yes it replaces itself with mana, but getting to 9-10 is rough even for Ruby Storm.

[Megadeus]

ten mana is feasible if you went to like grim monolith. But thats a whole different beast and may as well be dragonstorm at that point

[Mr. Safety]

ten mana is feasible if you went to like grim monolith. But thats a whole different beast and may as well be dragonstorm at that point

It's just outclassed, sadly, by other less expensive engines (Hazoret's Undying Fury, Reforge the Soul, Past in Flames.) With so many good cards available already that we can't squeeze in (Shreds of Sanity, Chandras, etc.) I think this card gets pushed even further down the list of playables.

[ahg113]

I've been away for a minute and not testing/playing recently.

I'm down with the Bonus Round and the general assortment of cards, going no-LED. (Surprised by latest MisterCakes list, but always willing to try and listen.)
However, shouldn't there be at least one non-Burning Wish win-con in the main deck, maybe even a solitary Sentinel Tower for lulz? It just feels very naked not to include a storm spell, nor a permanent source of damage, in the 60. It's extremely unlikely, but a surgical extraction/Slaughter Games effect on Burning Wish is game over.

[Megadeus]

Does this deck just beat force by throwing more haymakers than they have counters? I could see why led is bad if that is the plan.

[mistercakes]

Yes but don't underestimate LED. Helm is much worse in a combo meta.

edit: to give more context

LED is good at slamming through extra mana when you don't have enough initial sources. casting past in flames, cards off of act on impulse, and cheating cards through burning wish are the major benefits to LED.

the only reason i'm not running LED in this list that when you run so many of these reduction effects, LED gets worse. it also doesn't fork off of this new card, bonus round.

[mistercakes]

I also have only been goldfishing with this list.theres a good chance running bolts will play out better, at least over running hazoret's or some others. 2 bonus rounds and a bolt is almost lethal.

[Brael]

I also have only been goldfishing with this list.theres a good chance running bolts will play out better, at least over running hazoret's or some others. 2 bonus rounds and a bolt is almost lethal.

I like Bolt, if you want to, you can put Chain Lightning into the sideboard.

[mistercakes]

It'll take time to test. I'll try without any bolts first. Then if they are needed I will squeeze them in.

Haven't been at a tourney in months. Even a local.

In time. :)

[compacta_d]

Came here to talk about Bonus Round. Glad y'all are ahead of the curve.

I opened 2 in prerelease. Card is a house.

I actually think the deck is just run Bonus Round and Bolts. You can run 4 MD Lightning Bolt and at least 1 Chain Lightning in the sb as a wish target. Probably 2 in sideboard for the Bonus Burning Wish.

1 Bonus Round +3 bolts is near lethal. 2 Bonus Round +2 bolts is 24 damage. Keep in mind the second bonus round is also bonus rounded for 3 total copies from 2 spells.

Throw storm out. Just keep looping and getting mana til you bolt them to death.

Bonus Bolts.

The REAL bonus is that it's also removal for DRS and hate bears.

[compacta_d]

copy pasting mistercakes list and modding it. I'll play this....goblins this friday, standard next friday to prep for nationals...lol maybe like July 6th? Maybe I'll do before then.


// 60 Maindeck
// 9 Artifact
3 Ruby Medallion
4 Lotus Petal
2 Helm of Awakening

// 12 Instant
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
4 Desperate Ritual

// 13 Land
6 Mountain
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Bloodstained Mire

// 26 Sorcery
1 Past in Flames
1 Reforge the Soul
3 Rite of Flame
3 Act on Impulse
4 Burning Wish
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Bonus Round
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Faithless Looting


// 15 Sideboard
// 15 Sorcery
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Reforge the Soul
SB: 1 Act on Impulse
SB:
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 By Force
SB: 1 Cave-In
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB:
SB:
SB: 1 Bonus Round
SB:
SB: 1 Rite of Flame
SB: 2 Chain Lightning


ah i dont know the rest. Bonus Round takes up a lot of space lol. I hope it draws enough cards.

edit- as crazy as it sounds, maybe burning wish is the thing to cut? maybe it's not needed anymore? that sounds crazy to even me. Bonus Round +Bolt just seems SO GOOD. LIGHTNING ROUND!

[mistercakes]

burning wish shouldn't be cut. with bonus round active it gets 2 targets, with 2 bonus rounds it tutors for 4 cards.

take this example:

turn 1 tomb+rock.
turn 2 mtn + seething song + bonus round + burning wish. (RRR remaining).

get gamble and past in flames. i personally like to gamble for manamorphose 2x. if you don't discard manamorphose either time then you win assuming they can't interact with you. (remember you can cast instants between the gamble copy and gamble.

assuming you start with 6 cards you have the following probability:

6 cards +1 draw step = 7 cards.
tomb+rock+mtn+seething song+bonus round+wish+x

assuming you resolve the wish after that line your hand while the gamble's are on the stack is:
X+past in flames + manamorphose (first gamble, so you have a 66% of winning the game).
if you discard manamorphose you get another manamorphose and still have a 66% chance of hitting something other than it.
although pretty sure the odds of hitting manamorphose twice in a row are actually .33*.33 (or about 11%)

i'll take those chances.

let's assume you get to cast 1 manamorphose and draw 2 blanks. then discard past in flames. (this should ensure you are quite limited with your options as much as possibe.)

cast past in flames, R remaining.

cast manamorphose, draw 2 more (brick twice just for the sake of it) and get 4 mana. cast bonus round. cast seething song (20 mana).

cast gamble (4 targets this time). to simplify you can just get burning wish, past in flames, bonus round, seething song.

lets assume you discard all 4 randomly. recast past in flames. cast new bonus round. cast seething song (generates 40 mana this time). cast burning wish getting 8 sb cards, feel free to get the banefire as the last resolution, so they can't clique it out of your hand. (not that they wouldn't have cast it prior already.)

cast banefire for lethal.

[compacta_d]

Yeah. That does seem good. Ha. With all that though you can bolt etc. as well.

Well maybe squeezing bolts is too much then. :C

I'll goldfish it all once I get 2 more Bonus Rounds. Opened 2 in the sealed events.

[mistercakes]

here's another example:

(1 rock in play) let's say you have 1 probe and 1 pif in your graveyard and 3 mountains in play and a desperate ritual in hand. you draw bonus round.

cast bonus round, cast desperate ritual for 6 red.

cast past in flames with flashback for (RR left), cast desperate flashback. (7 red now). flashback bonus round. (5 red)

cast probe to draw 4 cards. (you have a lot of live outs here). bonus round makes for a very scary draw for opponents.

[mistercakes]

if you want to fit bolts, the worst card in the list is still hazoret's. :)

i'd probably consider cutting the 3 hazoret's and running maybe 2 bolts and 1 mountain. the deck is pretty greedy with the red now. maybe just leave a miser's hazoret's in the deck, or if you want to play it safe run a singleton empty.

[ahg113]

This thread is so awesome. Thx to all the smart people that math good.

Here's a reasonably questionable thought, overmaster in place of G. Probe, and cut one of those or a f. looting for the 4th L. Bolt. With a suite of L. Bolt's, I'm not as concerned with including a storm card/g.snipe/sentinel tower MD. While 4 L. bolt's aren't a wincom by themselves, it's a lot more reassuring against the opponent's interaction. I do question a SB of all wish targets though. An early chalice on two shuts this deck down hard.

And with compact_d's list, why not max ruby? I'm not seeing the benefit of casting another helm instead of a fourth ruby.

[mistercakes]

You don't need all wish targets. I'm just messing around. You can cut the dark petition pretty easily. You can also cut the cave in or the Pyroclasm. That frees up 2 spots for 2 Abrade.

I think you should test that with the maindeck I proposed, but with - 2 hazoret's and +2 bolts. I still like hazoret's a bit as it's good with bonus round, but bolt is bolt.

I'll play with 2 haz and 1 more mountain and test some more. (i'm also not opposed to running some more gambles, as they are extremely good with bonus round)

[compacta_d]

the 3 ruby 2 helm split is the number I came up with after the playing the deck a while.

2 helms mean that all future rubies and Defense Grids are Freebies. Defense Grids override Helms for opponent's counterspells anyway. Helm reduces my main deck and side board Tendrils as well.

The ruby/helm/land counts I think have changed for everyone over the course of time to be what they are comfortable with.

I am very comfortable with gambly low land counts and artifact counts from playing reanimator. I sequence and push through quite a bit. I also play Faithless Looting to smooth out those opening hands and pitch lands later in game.

Also why I insist on fetch lands even though the damage actually matters quite a bit. I'm more than happy to win at 1 life, and would rather reduce the amount of lands I draw when I draw 24 cards a turn to increase consistent non-whiffability.


Bonus Round may change all of these things. Can't wait to Faithless Looting x 4. I'm angry at myself for selling off my manamorphoses and LEDS. Though with Bonus Round I think dropping LED for Desperate Ritual may be the actual right call now.

[hadhod]

Hi at all.

I'm testing a very tiny blue splash:

https://image.ibb.co/h0BKTT/image.png

Why blue?

Epic Experiment

This card, with some mana and with Bonus can play all the deck!

The SB gains Fluster against combos and control too.

A card that can be tested in this kind of deck is also Set Adrift (whishable!) and maybe Time Spiral.

cheers,
hadhod

[mistercakes]

could be okay. keep in mind there might be some other single cards that offer a guaranteed win with bonus round if you're going to try blue.

i'd recommend trying out gifts ungiven or intuition. getting 2 gifts ungiven for even 3U with a bonus is a little challenging, but i think you can probably figure out many combos. the main issue is why? if you are going to play blue then you should add the consistency cards like ponder and preordain.

here's what i'm currently at with my testing, which is pure goldfishing still:



// 60 Maindeck
// 14 Artifact
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Helm of Awakening

// 2 Creature
2 Simian Spirit Guide

// 8 Instant
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose

// 14 Land
10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb

// 22 Sorcery
3 Past in Flames
3 Rite of Flame
4 Act on Impulse
4 Burning Wish
3 Gitaxian Probe
1 Hazoret's Undying Fury
1 Reforge the Soul
3 Bonus Round


// 15 Sideboard
// 2 Instant
SB: 2 Abrade

// 13 Sorcery
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Reforge the Soul
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 By Force
SB: 1 Cave-In
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Bonus Round
SB: 1 Banefire
SB: 1 Rite of Flame
SB: 1 Gitaxian Probe
SB: 1 Gamble




i'm not 100% sold on the 3rd past in flames, but we'll see. if it's going to be anything else it'll likely be a 2nd reforge or an empty.

also, after quite a bit of goldfishing:


http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=80275&type=cardhttp://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/000/157/itsatrap.jpg

[Glass House]

Whiled looking into sideboard options, I realized that Fiery Confluence can be more than a sweeper. It can actually be a win condition that disregards storm count. With enough mana and a Bonus Round and a Burning Wish in hand, you win.
Cast Bonus Round, cast Ritual/Song, cast Wish grabbing another Round (copy grabs Confluence), cast 2nd Round, cast Confluence. 24 damage to the face.

[ahg113]

Bonus round is so friggin awesome.

Just stomped Eldrazi, which I thought was an impossible feat, and the guy went for broke keeping a sb hand of two Leylines, and a Chalice he set on one.
Won game 1 through a TKS and not much else pressure. Used a B.Round to just double a F.Loot, and the next turn used a B.Round to double a BW, which got a shattering spree and C.Lightning, S.Spree blew out two Dynamo's and a key, C.Lightning busted the TKS. Got a PiF, popped an LED binning a BW, went bonkers with flashback.
Won game 2 through early hate, two Leylines, and a t2 Chalice on 1. No early pressure (mulled to six, 3 hate pieces, 3 lands), the turn after he played an Endbringer went wild with Bonus Round, was up to two casted in the turn. Had flipped 6 with a BR'd AoI. And got a RftS after a BR, able to cast a Manamorphose between hands. Had two lightning bolts available, Sentinel tower and B.Wish via AoI, and was up to about 13 storm. Not enough mana to do "everything" but enough to win.
Player conceded both games instead of waiting around for the kill.

Battlebonds may be my favorite set since... ever.

Here's the decklist:

// Legacy - Ruby Storm - Lightning Bonus

// 60 Maindeck
// 14 Artifact
3 Ruby Medallion
4 Lotus Petal
2 Helm of Awakening
1 Sentinel Tower
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

// 11 Instant
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
3 Lightning Bolt

// 14 Land
10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb

// 21 Sorcery
1 Past in Flames
1 Reforge the Soul
4 Rite of Flame
4 Act on Impulse
4 Burning Wish
2 Faithless Looting
2 Overmaster
3 Bonus Round


// 15 Sideboard
// 2 Artifact
SB: 2 Defense Grid

// 2 Creature
SB: 2 Scab-Clan Berserker

// 11 Sorcery
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Reforge the Soul
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 By Force
SB: 1 Cave-In
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Chain Lightning
SB: 1 Gamble
SB: 1 Banefire
SB: 1 Bonus Round


Thinking about putting in a hull breach, but not sure for what.

[mistercakes]

Whiled looking into sideboard options, I realized that Fiery Confluence can be more than a sweeper. It can actually be a win condition that disregards storm count. With enough mana and a Bonus Round and a Burning Wish in hand, you win.
Cast Bonus Round, cast Ritual/Song, cast Wish grabbing another Round (copy grabs Confluence), cast 2nd Round, cast Confluence. 24 damage to the face.

Yea it's pretty good. Might be better than the cave in, Pyroclasm spot, would be pretty hard to find another spot though. I'm still not 100% on the bane fire slot, I like being uncounterable. It could also take that spot possibly.

Ill have to count how often I have bonus round + wish + 5 mana (with a rock)

[hadhod]

could be okay. keep in mind there might be some other single cards that offer a guaranteed win with bonus round if you're going to try blue.

i'd recommend trying out gifts ungiven or intuition. getting 2 gifts ungiven for even 3U with a bonus is a little challenging, but i think you can probably figure out many combos.

I test Intuition but not Gifts. Intuition seems better 'cause can be a super tutor. But, for tutoring I prefer another card:

https://cdn1.mtggoldfish.com/images/gf/Spellseeker%2B%255BBBD%255D.jpg

I prefer it for soem reason:

I like it's a creature. Can chumpblock in some case.
It's another copy of bwish.
Can tutor some side-in spell (Flusterstorm, Abrade, Surgical for example)



It's blue and it's a problem for the manabase for sure. But I want test it :D




the main issue is why? if you are going to play blue then you should add the consistency cards like ponder and preordain.


The reason is seample: draw engine like ponder/preordrain reduces the explosive hands and makes very difficult build a good manabase. So, when i built it, i choose explosiveness than consistence (like High Tide's deck)

There is also another interesting Blue card: Turnabout, but it's got double U in mana cost :( (and maybe isn't so powerfull xD).

From my point of view, the U spells give us more consistence than the normal R version:

more tutors
more 1-spell-win
more SB



I hope this is clearer than the previous post, and i hope to give some starting points for study another way to play this deck.

Cheers,
Hadhod.

PS: @mistercakes: Why Ritual is a trap?

[mistercakes]

Bc it's significantly worse than led.

[mistercakes]

i considered the blue recruiter guy for a high tide kind of deck, but i'm not sure how good it would be.

the idea i had with it was with sapphire medallions and high tide.

assuming you have turn 2 sapphire, and turn 3 high tide.

cast this new guy for 1U, get snap. cast snap for U. untap 2 lands (U remaining)
recast him. get snap #2. cast snap for U (untap 2 land) (UU remaining)
recast him. do same thing.
recast him. do same thing.

(now you have UUUU) + 2 untapped lands. (tap for 8 mana)

Cast him for UU, get merchant scroll, cast scroll, get intuition, cast intuition, get 3 snapcaster.

Cast snapcaster targeting snap. Cast snap on snapcaster.

Untap 2 lands. (u remaining), tap both (uuuuu)

Cast snapcaster, target other snap. Return snapcaster again. Tap both islands (now UUU UU UU)

Do this twice more. Ends up with UUU UU UU UU UU and all lands tapped.

Cast snapcaster one last time. And grab merchant scroll to get cunning wish.

Cast cunning wish to get blue sun zenith. Cast new guy to get brain freeze.

Cast brain freeze and then blue sun zenith them for 1 card, or if you think the draw step will kill them then get anything

I'm not sure if this is the optimal build, but being able to kill with just a medallion, a high tide and one of this new guy is pretty powerful.

[ahg113]

// 15 Sideboard
// 2 Artifact
SB: 2 Defense Grid

// 2 Creature
SB: 2 Scab-Clan Berserker

// 11 Sorcery
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Reforge the Soul
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 By Force
SB: 1 Cave-In
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Chain Lightning
SB: 1 Gamble
SB: 1 Banefire
SB: 1 Bonus Round

Recently played a game where I missed EtW in the SB. Had 6 :r: mana, no rocks, storm count of 10, Burning Wish and Bonus Round in hand, opponent fluster stormed an Overmaster, really wanted an EtW in SB.
So taking out the Scab-clan. I like the card, but it's not as needed now as a 2-of. Can power through most games without it. For the other Scab-Clan, thinking either Fiery Confluence (when did that get expensive?), Hull Breach, or a 2nd Chain Lightning. Thoughts?

Edit: Or good ole Grapeshot

[mistercakes]

back to my bolt build, variance with other cards has some high payoff, but the trusty bolts will win more games.

// 60 Maindeck
// 14 Artifact
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Helm of Awakening

// 12 Instant
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
4 Lightning Bolt

// 14 Land
11 Mountain
3 Ancient Tomb

// 20 Sorcery
2 Past in Flames
3 Rite of Flame
4 Act on Impulse
4 Burning Wish
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Bonus Round
1 Gamble


// 15 Sideboard
// 2 Instant
SB: 2 Abrade

// 13 Sorcery
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Reforge the Soul
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 By Force
SB: 1 Bonus Round
SB: 1 Banefire
SB: 1 Rite of Flame
SB: 1 Gitaxian Probe
SB: 1 Gamble
SB: 1 Fiery Confluence
SB: 1 Dark Petition

not 100% sold on 4 bolts, prob 3 and an empty will be good. it tends to work out better with LED + dark petition -> goblins line for those random mtn+1 mana source +wish + 2 led. i think this is almost always safer just to play 14 goblins.

then it's just this:


// bonus MRS

// 60 Maindeck
// 14 Artifact
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Helm of Awakening

// 11 Instant
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
3 Lightning Bolt

// 14 Land
11 Mountain
3 Ancient Tomb

// 21 Sorcery
2 Past in Flames
3 Rite of Flame
4 Act on Impulse
4 Burning Wish
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Bonus Round
1 Gamble
1 Empty the Warrens


// 15 Sideboard
// 2 Instant
SB: 2 Abrade

// 13 Sorcery
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Reforge the Soul
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 By Force
SB: 1 Bonus Round
SB: 1 Banefire
SB: 1 Rite of Flame
SB: 1 Gitaxian Probe
SB: 1 Gamble
SB: 1 Fiery Confluence
SB: 1 Dark Petition

[Mr. Safety]

Got my set of pre-ordered Bonus Rounds last night, it's time to sleave up and start testing. If it is explosive enough, and it provides enough engine cards like I think it will, I might audible to that deck instead of Nic Fit or Slow Depths at the 1K this weekend.

[mistercakes]

Sweet. Good luck!

[jugglervr]

lightning bolt

wondering... does bolt kill anything we need to kill that sudden shock doesn't? SS kills a thalia with mom protection. I know the numbers add up poorly for going lethal with SS and bonus round... just pondering whether it's worth looking at to be able to ice thalia.

[ahg113]

wondering... does bolt kill anything we need to kill that sudden shock doesn't? SS kills a thalia with mom protection. I know the numbers add up poorly for going lethal with SS and bonus round... just pondering whether it's worth looking at to be able to ice thalia.

Leo comes to mind immediately. And banking on having a rock out to make the SS the same cost as a LBolt is chancy.

Initial thought on Sentinel Tower, it's too expensive. I attempted to cast it once, bit a FoW, which was ok. Otherwise it sits there and I wonder if/when I want to cast it.

Happy Hunting Mr.Safety

[scottpou]

If it is explosive enough, and it provides enough engine cards like I think it will, I might audible to that deck instead of Nic Fit or Slow Depths at the 1K this weekend.

Where is the 1k this weekend?

[Mr. Safety]

It's at The Complex in Scarborough, Maine. Doors open at 10:00am, tournament starts at 11:00am

[owerbart]

I took this bad boy to its first rodeo:

10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Act on Impulse
4 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens
3 Hazoret's Undying Fury
4 Helm of Awakening
4 Lotus Petal
4 Manamorphose
3 Past in Flames
3 Reforge the Soul
4 Rite of Flame
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Seething Song
4 Simian Spirit Guide

sideboard

1 Cave-In
1 Empty the Warrens
3 Defense Grid
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Grapeshot
1 Hazoret's Undying Fury
1 Mizzix Mastery
1 Past in Flames
1 Reforge the Soul
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Shattering Spree
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Pyroclasm
1 Chain Lightning


Went 2-1 vs Grixis Control
1-2 vs BUGpost
2-1 vs BUG Chain
2-1 vs Dredge
2-1 vs Grixis Control

I was thinking about trying to make space for a transitional DragonStorm sideboard, since casting big dragons through medallions works wonders against a world filled with pierce, flusterstorm and spell snare.

[mistercakes]

that's pretty great to beat 3 blue decks. i love seeing things like this. what happened vs Bugpost? wtf is bugpost?

would you be able to go into a little detail about how you interacted during those matchups?

were they empty-based wins? did you fight through lots of counters with reforge/pif?

how come only 2 act on impulse?

and any chance you'll be testing with bonus wish?

i'm not sure the sb can support a dragonstorm board as you'll need 4-6 dragons and X copies of dragonstorm. perhaps you could run 4-6 dragons and a single copy of dragonstorm as a wish target, but at that point i'm not sure it's worth it.

(also noted that i do like the 4 petal 4 ssg 10 mtn amount of initial red sources. the lack of initial red sources has always been a pain point for the deck.)

[Mr. Safety]

I think we are seeing the potential of the brute-force approach come to light even more. That list is jam-full of must-counter engine cards/threats. When every spell you ramp into is must-counter it seems that eventually they will run out of counters.

I'm still a little skeptical about Reforge the Soul, but that seems like an easy spot for Bonus Round if I were to take this approach.

[compacta_d]

what happened vs Bugpost? wtf is bugpost?



Bug post is like 12 post, except it plays typcial BUG spells and things like Prime Time to get the posts.

[mistercakes]

Got a list? What is the ub? Show and tell? Discard?

[Mr. Safety]

I am guessing an evolution of this deck:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24848-Deck-Turbo-Eldrazi

[ReAnimator]

So testing with Bonus Round leads to some conclusions that are hard for me to resolve.

You are way more incentivized to run spells over artifacts because the artifacts don't interact with BR at all. But the Artifacts are all better when you are on a non BR game plan. So that leads to the deck sort of wanting to go down two separate paths, one for BR and one for the other engines. The sweet spot is where you can have cards that work with both plans.

It's not just the artifacts, the draw spells are way way better if they are naturally cheap, compared to things like Act on Impulse which is mostly terrible with BR unless you have 2 cost reducers in play already. If you are already incentivized to have cheaper cantrips, then the mana reducers get less good overall as well.

I’m wondering if a more spell focused version with a minimum or perhaps even no cost reducers could be a thing for bonus round. More like TES or Belcher.

The problem being the rituals are less good on their own in general, and the cantrips in red are pretty wanting, they don’t dig super effectively so running ones that are only good after a bonus round has already resolved is pretty lackluster.

I’m going to try a Gamble heavy list with less cost reducers and try to tutor them up when necessary and early but then once having one, gamble is still a good card post BR resolving.

[owerbart]

Yeah BUG post is cloudpost but with BUG spells .

Almost all games were overkills, when i went off i either did like 30 gobs or grapeshot to the face. Because i ran hazoret undying fury you can always reveal a random etw guarantee yourself some value from.the flips. The deck felt really good. Tendrils is needed since g1 against bugpost he went for t3 show and tell the titan searching glacial chasm, and tendrils was my only out. Vs all the blue decks i just kept on trying and eating forces, but because i ran 3 past in flames i'm literally putting them in check every turn. Against g3 vs bugpost i'm 99% sure i miscounted and i actually had a kill. Also there's a typo, last round it was 2-0 vs grixis control, not 2-1. Also running less than 8 medallions seems heavily suspicious, and i wouldn't run things like gamble since you just want raw cards, not something in specific.

[owerbart]

Another thing is that Reanimator is your worst matchup, but you can maybe try to do this: Pack 4 black leylines, 4 helm of obedience. Yeah it kinda leaves you with less sideboard options but maybe it exists the possibiluty that a resolved hazoret undying fury just flips your missing combo piece (of both)

[mistercakes]

Agreed with most points, except that AoI is still amazing with LeD.

[Mr. Safety]

Agreed with most points, except that AoI is still amazing with LeD.

I would argue it's amazing with only one reducer, too. Doubling it with Bonus Round, even at 2 mana, is pretty ridiculous. Paying the full 3 and doing it with Bonus Round does seem to be a stretch, basically needing a pair of Seething Songs (which nets you 7 mana, 6 for those 2 and one mana left over to continue the chain.)

[Misdirection]

I took this bad boy to its first rodeo:

10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Act on Impulse
4 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens
3 Hazoret's Undying Fury
4 Helm of Awakening
4 Lotus Petal
4 Manamorphose
3 Past in Flames
3 Reforge the Soul
4 Rite of Flame
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Seething Song
4 Simian Spirit Guide

sideboard

1 Cave-In
1 Empty the Warrens
3 Defense Grid
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Grapeshot
1 Hazoret's Undying Fury
1 Mizzix Mastery
1 Past in Flames
1 Reforge the Soul
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Shattering Spree
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Pyroclasm
1 Chain Lightning


Went 2-1 vs Grixis Control
1-2 vs BUGpost
2-1 vs BUG Chain
2-1 vs Dredge
2-1 vs Grixis Control

I was thinking about trying to make space for a transitional DragonStorm sideboard, since casting big dragons through medallions works wonders against a world filled with pierce, flusterstorm and spell snare.

Congratulations on your good result.
Re brute force build, how do you think about reforge the soul?
I start to dislike the card more and more as the card always draws my opponent Force of Will. Or they just kill me with bolts with the cards drawn.

I am sticking with fury at the moment. As the card seems a better payoff in a blue meta

[mistercakes]

seems a bit like my build from last year:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31803-Ruby-Storm&p=1015922&viewfull=1#post1015922

(ignore the sb)

i did a ton of testing with this and ended up not being super thrilled with reforge. it is extremely great vs non blue and mediocre vs blue.

that's my takeaway from it!

[Mr. Safety]

Congratulations on your good result.
Re brute force build, how do you think about reforge the soul?
I start to dislike the card more and more as the card always draws my opponent Force of Will. Or they just kill me with bolts with the cards drawn.

I am sticking with fury at the moment. As the card seems a better payoff in a blue meta

This has always been my opinion as well. I still have 1x Reforge in the sideboard because against non-blue decks it can pull a win out of nowhere.

[mistercakes]

i'm less worried about the counterspells and more for the chance that they have surgical extraction as well. also using reforge to rip into empty is a bit risky for some decks as they can kill you on their next turn or they can wipe the board.

[JosefK]

I agree with ReAnimator, spells > artifacts in a bonus round deck. I really dont know if it belongs in this thread or if it's a new deck entirely but i cut all reducers, LED and act on impulse and added desperate rituals and preordain, brainstorm and meditate. Deck seems very strong so far, mostly goldfishing but also registered it in an IRL legacy league, only played two games so far vs stoneblade and moon stompy and won both, but will see how it goes in the rest of the league. Preordain with bonus round is insanely good at digging. Brainstorm is kind of meh with BR, but brainstorm is brainstorm... I tried Gifts and Pieces of the Puzzle in the meditate slot, but i really like the raw drawing power of meditate. Skipping multiple turns is probably game over, but never happened so far. The deck could support FOW, which i might try but don't know if the card disadvantage will be to much.

I'm mostly scared of permanent based hate like scab clan berserker, thalia or thorn/trinisphere, fow could help with those. Graveyard hate can be scary depending on how the game folds out, but counterspells and discard is not such a big problem in my opinion.

[mistercakes]

so if you looked back for the last few weeks, i was pairing desperate ritual over LED with bonus round. after lots of testing, LED is still just a stronger card. bonus round is great with desperate ritual...no complaints there.

desperate ritual on its own....not very good. it's pretty strong with a rock in play, but overall it's a tier 2 kind of card.

whenever you cast act on impulse, it's very rare you're unhappy to see an LED, but desperate sometimes leaves you in an awkward spot.

i like that bonus round can be played in 2 or even 3 color decks, but the manabase is a bit choppier and this leaves you open to wasteland + all the other hate-based cards. additionally, you don't have the protection that a deck like ANT has because it's running optimal numbers of the other cards.

just my 2 cents.

i would start a new thread for something that is incorporating a lot of blue cards in it.

-Rob

i did a hand on cockatrice goldfishing, turn 2 on the play.

what is your line of play?

here's the list for reference:
// 60 Maindeck
// 14 Artifact
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Helm of Awakening

// 11 Instant
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
3 Lightning Bolt

// 14 Land
11 Mountain
3 Ancient Tomb

// 21 Sorcery
2 Past in Flames
3 Rite of Flame
4 Act on Impulse
4 Burning Wish
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Bonus Round
1 Gamble
1 Empty the Warrens


// 15 Sideboard
// 2 Instant
SB: 2 Abrade

// 13 Sorcery
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Reforge the Soul
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 By Force
SB: 1 Bonus Round
SB: 1 Banefire
SB: 1 Rite of Flame
SB: 1 Gitaxian Probe
SB: 1 Gamble
SB: 1 Fiery Confluence
SB: 1 Dark Petition

(scroll below for what i would do) . in hindsight this hand doesn't exemplify LED over desperate ritual, i think in this case you actually can end up with the same result. if you don't have a bonus round in this hand i think it's an easy one of these: RoF, petal, led, burning wish (crack led for BBB), get dark petition -> empty the warrens for 12 goblins. with desperate ritual you get RoF, petal, desperate, burning wish -> empty for 10 goblins.

https://i.imgur.com/xPetZFn.png




cast petal, rof, bonus round, led, burning wish and crack led in resp.
(rite of flame + gamble). cast RoF, go up to 8 mana. cast gamble (7) fetch for burning wish and past in flames, discarding both.

flash back past in flames, cast rite of flame (7 mana). cast bonus round again. (4) cast the other rite of flame (11 mana).

cast burning wish. 4 cards this time. get probe, fiery confluence, grapeshot, bonus round.

cast bonus round (8 mana). cast probe (draw 8 cards). you have lethal here since you can confluence for 48 damage, but if you want to do stupid things for fun you can.

and this one? (turn 2 on the play, just drew another mountain)

https://i.imgur.com/VqgpAjp.png

and this one turn 1 on the play

https://i.imgur.com/oRJYUTN.png

[compacta_d]

That second one I might ship for not enough gas, but PIF and Wish can get draw more stuff. being at 4 mana is awkward. I'd prob wait a turn for max mana ramp if I could.

That last one is hot though. I'd likely run it into a Reforge with R floating, but I'm very comfortable with Reforge.

It's awkward because you cant do PIF AND bonus round, so you end up with only wishing that turn, and its basically what you deem best from the wishboard.

Dark Petition with RBBB floating is great too, but then you probably petition for Act on Impulse with B floating.

I'm a bit rusty, so interested to see where you go with the hands.

[Manroe]

Oof, had an issue with surgical extraction getting copied 4 times in the bonus round version. That was quite brutal against me. Anyone else had issues with the card?

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk

[mistercakes]

i haven't been able to test it yet, but if that's a bit of a worry i would recommend upping the defense grids in the sb, or possibly running some more maindeck win cons. maybe instead of running 3 lightning bolt and an empty, you can run something like:

1 lightning bolt
1 chain lightning
1 tendrils/magma jet/sudden shock
1 empty the warrens


also for sequencing, you can try to have your bolts either in your hand or exiled from act on impulse, they should be safe from surgical there.

[vieko]

i haven't been able to test it yet, but if that's a bit of a worry i would recommend upping the defense grids in the sb, or possibly running some more maindeck win cons.

I would 100% up the Defense Grid count if running Bonus Round. Once your opponents gets how this thing works, they can take full advantage of it. Full disclosure: I have not tested the card past theorycrafting with @MisterCakes

[mistercakes]

prob too slow, but could be fun with bonus round:

https://www.mtgpics.com/pics/big/m19/298.jpg

for the list that i mentioned 1 bolt, 1 chain lightning 1 x (this could be the x) and 1 empty the warrens.

[ahg113]

Oof, had an issue with surgical extraction getting copied 4 times in the bonus round version. That was quite brutal against me. Anyone else had issues with the card?

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk

That's a bitch for sure. If it actually becomes a problemon instead of one bad beat, try Silent Gravestone. Before going all in with Defense Grid, I had used that to help stunt DRS interaction.

[mistercakes]

That's true, gravestone is better than grid if you're only looking to beat surgical/snapcaster /drs/faerie macabre, and prey on parts on reanimator deck. Grid is better for blocking out blue decks, but it does cost 1 more and gets worse with Helm(s) out.

[mistercakes]

// 60 Maindeck
// 14 Artifact
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Helm of Awakening

// 10 Instant
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
2 Desperate Ritual

// 14 Land
12 Mountain
2 Ancient Tomb

// 22 Sorcery
2 Past in Flames
3 Rite of Flame
4 Act on Impulse
4 Burning Wish
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Bonus Round
1 Gamble
1 Hazoret's Undying Fury


// 15 Sideboard
// 2 Artifact
SB: 2 Silent Gravestone

// 2 Creature
SB: 2 Scab-Clan Berserker

// 11 Sorcery
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Reforge the Soul
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 By Force
SB: 1 Bonus Round
SB: 1 Banefire
SB: 1 Rite of Flame
SB: 1 Gamble
SB: 1 Hull Breach




been goldfishing with this one a bit. the 2 desperate rituals are in there to help with turn 1 kills. the hazoret's is just a miser's. they all could be bolts, guttersnipes, or empty.

[perian]

Last Legacy FNM in my LGS I finished 2nd with the following list:

// 60 Maindeck
// 14 Artifact
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Helm of Awakening
// 10 Instant
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
2 Desperate Ritual
// 14 Land
10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
// 22 Sorcery
2 Past in Flames
4 Rite of Flame
4 Act on Impulse
4 Burning Wish
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Bonus Round
1 Gamble
1 Empty the Warrens

// 15 Sideboard
// 15 Sorcery
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 By Force
1 Bonus Round
1 Banefire
1 Pyroclasm
1 Gamble
1 Shattering Spree
1 Reanimate
1 Dark Petition
1 Telemin Performance
1 Gitaxian Probe
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Traitorous Blood

Played against:
D&T 1-2 (1st)
Tezzerator 2-1
Maverick 2-0
Lands 2-1

I played the deck without any testing, because I have not a lot of time for MtG and do not play online.
Our Meta lacks blue decks atm. That's really strange compared to current global meta. But good for this deck.
The SB is a full wish board because I didn't what to board a lot and try as much as possible.
I wasn't able to get a Reforge the Soul in time, so it is missing. I am not sure if I want to run Fury.

My first impressions:
- The deck is a blast!!!
- Bonus Round is fantastic (as long as people are unprepared)
- The deck need to mull a lot - mostly because of missing lands - but can have decent 4 cards hands
- Helm is not optimal - helps the opponents often to much
- You need to play more aggressive g2&3
Beginning helps a lot
- You can play through a lot of hate (e.g. I play against: Chalice @0&1 at the same time, sphere of residence & trinisphere) and win
- Thalia, Canonist, Mother on board & Mindbreak Trap in hand are hard to beat (Helm helped to play the hate too early...)
- Tick the storm count higher, if opponent may play sword

Fun facts:
- Gambled T1 with 6 cards in hand to find Tomb - discarded Tomb (only 1 mountain in the starting hand)
- I was not the only one playing Ruby in the room (another with ledless build and bolts - in total 4 storm decks). We didn't allined to play the same or talked before about the deck - it was coincidence.
- I was asked if bonus round is already legal to play - I wasn't 100% sure of the official release date of battlebond at the first gasp.
- Once the crowd started to chant: "Ruby, Ruby, Ruby, Rubeeeyyyy!" (catchy song ;))

What would I chance:
- 2nd Gamble main - PiF to SB
- Clean out / optimize SB and replaced with better cards

[mistercakes]

that's great! how many people are at your local?

funny to hear of more than one ruby storm at a local event. do you think you can get the other guy to possibly write up on here?

-rob

[perian]

that's great! how many people are at your local?

Only 14 iirc. Typically we are between 12 and 20 players at our weekly Legacy FNMs. I will try to reach out for the other Ruby player.

[mort47]

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/july-2-2018-banned-restricted-update-2018-07-02


Legacy:

Deathrite Shaman and Gitaxian Probe are banned

Well, now what? :rolleyes:

Overmaster?

EDIT:

I tried it once and it felt bad. However, there is some hope. I'm trying leaning harder on Pyromancer Ascension and Bonus Round with 2-3 Tormenting Voice. Early game it'll help sculpt your hand and while you're going off it rips through your deck for :r:. More expensive than paying two life, sure, but it also goes twice as deep and is still insane when you double it, whereas Overmaster still just feels kind of disappointing.

[mistercakes]

I'm on holiday for the next 3 weeks (poor me). Happy to see DRS and probe go, but building with this deck will need to change a little more.

Bonus round gets a lot worse without probe. Will likely need to go back to pre bonus round pre ascension lists that are better against daze and stifle.

I really like Simian Spirit Guide in cases like this.

Playing against delver decks that can't know what is in your hand is a big benefit, remember we are just pushing through and now they have to actually guess.

Will have to do some testing when I am find some time.

[mort47]

Bonus round gets a lot worse without probe. Will likely need to go back to pre bonus round pre ascension lists that are better against daze and stifle.

I've been going in the other direction. Currently dropped the Pyromancer Ascension (which is definitely worse without git probe, much harder to switch on) and put in three Bonus Round and four Tormenting Voice. It seems to work, but with the Tormenting Voice really needing to cost :r: I'm thinking if I'd return to any of the cards from earlier versions of the deck it'd be Helm of Awakening. Simian Spirit Guide never felt great to me in the deck because it adds :r: for a card but doesn't ever do anything else. The first Rite of Flame by comparison adds to your storm count and gets doubled with Bonus Round and triggers Guttersnipe and all that good stuff. Might just be me now who cares about the Guttersnipe thing. Gotta get me a couple of those new M19 promos.

Oh yeah, one more thought. DRS is dead. Do we still want Bolt?

Enjoy the rest of your holiday. :cool:

[Mr. Safety]

Losing probe is a big hit to non-LED lists. It was one of the best cards for giving velocity, free storm count, and free info. I suppose overmaster can be used, but it's not as good.

I'll probably do this to start:
-4 probe
+ 1 sag
+3 overmaster

With bonus round, bolts seem to be quite good as well.

[mort47]

Here's the list I'm currently goldfishing if anyone's interested.

Ruby Storm

Main:
4 Act on Impulse
3 Ancient Tomb
2 Bedlam Reveler
2 Bonus Round
4 Burning Wish
2 Guttersnipe
2 Helm of Awakening
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Lotus Petal
4 Manamorphose
11 Mountain
3 Past in Flames
4 Rite of Flame
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Seething Song
4 Tormenting Voice

Sideboard:
1 By Force
2 Defense Grid
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
1 Hazoret's Undying Fury
1 Past in Flames
1 Pyroclasm
1 Reforge the Soul
2 Scab-Clan Berserker
1 Shattering Spree
2 Silent Gravestone
1 Tendrils of Agony

Seems like it might be good but it's too early to say obviously. I feel like without black hand disruption or blue cantrips we were leaning harder on Gitaxian Probe than most decks.

I'm confident that Tormenting Voice is better than Overmaster though.

[mistercakes]

I agree that tormenting voice is likely better than overmaster, especially in grindy games.

The other card that would be great with bonus round is commune with Lava.

Consider a draw like this :

Turn 1 Ruby with tomb.
Turn 2 mountain seething song, bonus round, commune for x = 3, which will double and net 6 cards.

For a Christmasland draw:

Turn 1 Ruby with tomb.
Turn 2 mountain desperate ritual, bonus round, seething song and tap tomb for 9RR, cast commune for either x=9 or x=10, which will net you 18 or 20 cards, 18 is safer since you don't need to hit a petal or led.

For slower games this will have a bigger impact, plus you can get some end step stuff on their turn.

I'm not sure yet how to squeeze it all in, I would like to play a gamble as it's quite good with bonus round.

I was thinking with bonus round if you cast gamble, it can be a great hit as the first target for gamble.

Will do some brewing, but didn't bring my laptop so I can't even goldfish!


4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Ruby Medallion
2 Helm of Awakening

4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
3 Desperate Ritual

4 Act on Impulse
4 Burning Wish
3 Commune with Lava
3 Bonus Round
2 Past in Flames
1 Gamble

10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb

SB

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Shattering Spree
1 By Force
1 Pyroclasm
1 Reforge the Soul
1 Gamble
1 Past in Flames
3 Silent Gravestone
3 Scab-Clan Berserker

[Mr. Safety]

Overmaster was never about draw, it was about protection at best, draw at worst. I don't see how tormenting voice even enters the conversation when faithless looting is a card. Honestly, if you want to draw cards, settling for net one for 2 mana sometimes is pretty bad in this deck when you have access to AoI and Reforge. Looting at least supports pif better than tormenting voice. I have at least 3 other cards I'd play over voice:

1) faithless looting
2) shreds of sanity
3) lightning bolt

All of those are after Overmaster, because I think we are going to need to adjust to the changing format again. I also think that the free draw from probe was a lot more important than we are letting on. Probe saw that we could resolve an engine card, overmaster makes sure we resolve an engine card. Much closer than tormenting voice, net one card, sometimes at the steep price of 2 mana.

Edit: forgot about commune with lava, another card with a better payoff I think.

[mistercakes]

Overmaster is bad, looting is okay. Card disadvantage isn't helpful and looting opens you up top much to surgical.

Tormenting voice is great with Ruby + bonus round, but overall it is likely too weak. vieko tested a long time ago alongside probe and came to that conclusion.

Bolt is likely needed in a flex spot, along with guttersnipe.

There really isn't that much to adjust to. Bolt is the best card out of the 4, the others aren't even close.

Delver decks become more linear and not wide. Rug delver will be somewhat problematic, bug Delver is historically the anti combo delver shell.

ANT and infect lose probe which also slows them down. Ant and tes are currently considering more discard, which makes cards like faithless looting much worse. (think going turn 1 looting and then getting thoughtsiezed or duressed.

Other decks are mostly the same. You will have more of a wasteland meta now that DRS is gone.

Bolts value goes up a bit to deal with tempo decks, specifically bug Delver and to a lesser extent rug delver.

Bolt is still good where it was prior (dnt and maverick).

Guttersnipe + bolt makes the deck unique in the sense that it is a combo deck that attacks from two angles and protects itself from the board.

You will be slower by running these cards, but that's okay.
If you expect a high combo meta, then I'd recommend running more balls to the wall big payoff cards.

I tend to like combo more, but guttersnipe and bolt have their place.

I'm still screwing around with bonus round, although losing probe hit it pretty hard. It's more of my personal preference.

[GAMEster52]

just won a local event 4-0-0. sleeved it up yesterday wanted to play a last time with the probes ;) did not really have time to prepare so i found out now that i misscalculated the lands... normally i would prefer total of 11 mountain... but maybe 10 is the right amount. i think we were around 16 people...

2-1 against Miracles
cant say much about the matches, i think he wasn't a highly experienced player...
2-0 against RUG Delver
first game go off turn two or three for 16 or more tokens... 2nd game go off some two turns after resolving a defense grid.
2-1 against Grixies Delver
cant say much, in the last game he made a mistake when casting liliana instead of kolaghans command and destroying my defense grid, he basically let me discard my hand and ate my graveyard, i had two or three ruby medallions in play and topdecked burning wish for reforge the soul, finally won after past in flames reforge again, he could not counter because defense grid...
2-0 against Infect (Final)
1st game i begin and go off turn 1 with 14 goblin after seeing his hand through probe. 2nd game i have to go off turn three or something to get 6 token and start jump blocking, some turns later i go off again and finish it.

// 60 Maindeck
// 14 Artifact
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Helm of Awakening

// 9 Instant
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
1 Desperate Ritual

// 13 Land
9 Mountain
3 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors

// 24 Sorcery
2 Past in Flames
4 Rite of Flame
4 Act on Impulse
4 Burning Wish
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Faithless Looting
1 Reforge the Soul
2 Empty the Warrens
1 Hazoret's Undying Fury


// 15 Sideboard
// 3 Artifact
SB: 3 Defense Grid

// 2 Instant
SB: 2 Abrade

// 10 Sorcery
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Reforge the Soul
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 By Force
SB: 1 Hull Breach
SB: 1 Goblin War Strike
SB: 1 Cave-In
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast

maybe have to add, that i did not prepare for storm or reanimator cause i was pretty sure there will be no opponent today playing one of these...

[mistercakes]

Thanks for that. Always happy to hear this deck smashing some net decks.

[compacta_d]

the bonus round interaction is a good point. Cathartic Reunion? Tormenting Voice?

Faithless looting has been an all star for me. It's odd that you all are down on it.

It smooths out turn 1 hands.

It pitches past in flames and mountains. Remember that time you drew 3 mountains?

Flashback gets reduced by rubies. Gets cheapened by Past in flames even.

Haven't tested with bonus round, but sounds great there too. draw 2 pitch 2, draw 2 pitch 2. hand smooth as butter.

Probe ban is a loss, but it was my most sbed out card. Usually replaced with Defense Grids. I think more rits go there now. Or the spot for Faithless for some. Gamble is good as well.

[Mr. Safety]

the bonus round interaction is a good point. Cathartic Reunion? Tormenting Voice?

Faithless looting has been an all star for me. It's odd that you all are down on it.

It smooths out turn 1 hands.

It pitches past in flames and mountains. Remember that time you drew 3 mountains?

Flashback gets reduced by rubies. Gets cheapened by Past in flames even.

Haven't tested with bonus round, but sounds great there too. draw 2 pitch 2, draw 2 pitch 2. hand smooth as butter.

Probe ban is a loss, but it was my most sbed out card. Usually replaced with Defense Grids. I think more rits go there now. Or the spot for Faithless for some. Gamble is good as well.

Lots of varied experiences; overmaster had always been at least good for me, but others say it's bad. *shrug* I really like looting as well, however, grave hate will be stronger g2-3 as the format adjusts.

I totally forgot about gamble. Will put that on my playtest list again.

[compacta_d]

I think overmaster is a legit flex spot.

deck has LOTS of flex spots

[mistercakes]

the bonus round interaction is a good point. Cathartic Reunion? Tormenting Voice?

Faithless looting has been an all star for me. It's odd that you all are down on it.

It smooths out turn 1 hands.

It pitches past in flames and mountains. Remember that time you drew 3 mountains?

Flashback gets reduced by rubies. Gets cheapened by Past in flames even.

Haven't tested with bonus round, but sounds great there too. draw 2 pitch 2, draw 2 pitch 2. hand smooth as butter.

Probe ban is a loss, but it was my most sbed out card. Usually replaced with Defense Grids. I think more rits go there now. Or the spot for Faithless for some. Gamble is good as well.

I tested it quite a bit with bonus round and came to the same conclusion that it's generally not great with led and that the card disadvantage wasn't worth it.

It's not my point to tell someone what to play, so if you like it feel free.

[GAMEster52]

hey guys,

currently i am trying to replace the probes. did someone ever tried noxious revival? in addition more faithless looting and reforges in mainboard. so you could go occasionally for the miracle cost of reforge... also the noxious revival mainboard can shut down reanimator (ok, they have discard but its at least something...) and i dont want to use important slots of sb for graveyard hate...

what do you think in general about the card? do know any other good cards that have synergies with noxious revival?
will post a list when i tested more...

[mistercakes]

It's okay. It's card disadvantage. If you're playing with Reforge it might be slightly better. The anti reanimator stuff is the best reason, but I wouldn't say it's worth a maindeck slot.

[Reinardbr]

So, today i played a Legacy league on MTGO with this deck, and i think its great!

Here my list:

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1156871#online

[mistercakes]

What were your matchups and how'd you do?

[Reinardbr]

So, today i played a Legacy league on MTGO with this deck, and i think its great!

Here my list:

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1156871#online

My matchs:

1 - RUG Delver 2-0, both games was close, after get almost all cards countered in g1, got 2 ruby in table, and a wish to reforge the soul, (my opponent had 3 FoW in yard). G2 put a grid on turn 1, combo off in turn 4 with a backup plan on pif.
2 - Goblins 2-0, both games i just go to combo on turn 2, no effective answer from the deck.
3 - RUG Control (Stryfo) 1-2, i win g1 turn 3, g2 lost to a Surgical Extraction on Rite of Flame when i'm comboing, g3 mull 5, stay at 1 land for 6-7 turns, there no go back.
4 - Moon Stompy 2-1, g1, just combo on turn 3 against a chalice on 1 t1 and a rbblemaster on t2 with just a City from my opponent. G2, can't handle chalice on 2, but Overmaster and bonus round can do the job here. G3, just combo off t2 against a slow start from him.
5 - Dredge 2-1, He just got a very slow start, and i combo in turn 3, after he dredge for the first time. G2, can't do anything against a explosive hand with faithless looting, led, and 2 cabal therapy. G3, win on t3 after he missed the therapy.

Bonus Roundd is insane, the Deck can combo off with just a card, and this is incredible amazing.

[mistercakes]

That's great. The flex spots are the 2 ssg, 3 overmaster, 1 Reforge and 1 hazoret's,to a lesser extent the 3rd maindeck pif.

Ssg might be less of a flex spot in a format where daze sees more play.

Haven't you tried anything else yet? Commune with Lava, gamble, other rituals?

What are you siding out when you bring in your grids?

[Reinardbr]

That's great. The flex spots are the 2 ssg, 3 overmaster, 1 Reforge and 1 hazoret's,to a lesser extent the 3rd maindeck pif.

Ssg might be less of a flex spot in a format where daze sees more play.

Haven't you tried anything else yet? Commune with Lava, gamble, other rituals?

What are you siding out when you bring in your grids?

I doesn't tried anything else. To bring up Grids, ocassionally i take out Hazoreth's Fury, Overmaster or the third PiF.

I'm thinking about running 1 Empty the warrens Main Deck or the 2nd in side to bring games 2 and 3, some times u can just do 14-16 goblins on turn 1 without a wish.

[mistercakes]

1 Empty in the main is fine. It helps if you have a dark petition or infernal tutor in the sb so you can add am extra storm if you happen to have it. Petition is also pretty cool with bonus round.

[perian]

Why aren't you maxing out Rite of Flames in your MDs?

Imho it's the best ritual to start the combo or for a quick T1 ruby. I have never had the intention to wish for it till now. I my list the wishes mainly are used to find the finishers or combo pieces. I have replaced it in the side with an other ritual if needed. With a Ruby on board the 1R rituals are nearly as good and sometimes even better.

[mistercakes]

The main reason here for putting a Rof in the sb is for bonus round. For example this line is pretty common in goldfishing.

Cast bonus round, cast burning wish. Now you can get rite of flame and gamble.

If you have a single red after burning wish, you're extremely likely to win here (assuming no interaction).

[mistercakes]

Been looking back at a few cards that might interact well with bonus round:

Mizzix's Mastery (which might help justify faithless looting enough, does seem rather good after bonus round if you have a manamorphose + almost anything else.)
Browbeat (which on its own is not great, but in a build with bolts could be alright since it could deal 10 for 2r)
Fight with fire (as a wish target, dealing 20 for 6 mana)
Recoup (maybe not enough targets since it only hits sorcery).

If adding a second color as a small addition (not enough to justify the mana base, but pieces of the puzzle or desperate reseach could both be okay.)

Desperate research for 1b seems like it could be fine after bonus round.

Haven't tested any.

Mizzix's Mastery with faithless seems like it could be merited more now with bonus round. I think compacta tested it a lot pre bonus round.

[perian]

Fight with fire (as a wish target, dealing 20 for 6 mana)

Unfortunately only the kicker is 5R, so in total it would be 7RR for 20 iirc.

[perian]

The main reason here for putting a Rof in the sb is for bonus round. For example this line is pretty common in goldfishing.

Cast bonus round, cast burning wish. Now you can get rite of flame and gamble.

If you have a single red after burning wish, you're extremely likely to win here (assuming no interaction).

Thx for the example. But I don't get it. Maybe I miss something.

Your example starting with RRRRRR (no RoF in gy) --> RRR + card from Gamble (imho PiF) in gy or maybe hand (if I start with more cards in Hand).
How do I win from there?

If I have a Ruby out:
RRRR --> RRR + card from Gamble (using Rof)
RRRR --> RRRRR + PiF from Gamble (using 1R ritual)

I prefer the second line in this Ruby scenario.

What do I miss? Is there a better line?

[mistercakes]

Let's say you have R remaining after burning wish with rock in play and bonus round already resolved.

If you have 0 cards in hand then probably your only play here is to grab past in flames and rite of flame.

The hope here is that you cast past in flames with R leftover and then recast rite of flame with the hope of probably a manamorphose or something else that can cantrip after recasting bonus round.

If you have 1 or more cards in hand I prefer this line with R open:

Rof and gamble.

Cast rof and then cast gamble for manamorphose. Your odds will be at worst 50% (if you have more cards in hand it can go down a lot.)

Keep in mind you can also get a seething song here which can be equally strong.

When you discard for gamble, but prior to the copy of gamble resolving (actually the original non copy happens last), you can cast your instant.

If you don't discard manamorphose then you cast it and will have RRR+XXXX, for the second gamble you can get past in flames. Even if you discard past in flames, you can flash it back for 3R, then cast bonus round (flashback) rite of flame (flashback), manamorphose for) 4 cards) and then cast gamble (flashback). At this point you can probably just make up some line of play.

If you have RR in pool after the burning wish, then I recommend getting gamble and past in flames. This allows you to get manamorphose with each gamble. (odds are pretty low to discard manamorphose each time). Also if you don't discard the past in flames and one of the manamorphose resolves, pif only costs 2R.

Otherwise an option could be to run 3 act on impulse in the main and one in the sb. This would allow you to burning wish for rof + AoI. You'll reveal 6 cards, which could be enough considering you can hit led for mana as well. I'm not sure it's worth it since AoI is so good in the maindeck. (probably best topdeck most of the time.)

If you have a rite of flame in the graveyard prior to all of this then I think it would make sense to grab RoF + gamble. Then you can cast rof for 6 mana. Gamble for manamorphose and pif. (manamorphose first), if you discard manamorphose and past in flames, then you can still flashback and go off like in the RR scenario.

[mistercakes]

If you have RRR and no cards, or have to use LED while holding priority for burning wish, then I think if bonus round came first you should likely have a Hazoret's Undying Fury in the sb. This way you can get rite of flame and hazoret's.

Flipping 8 cards should win the majority of the time.

I've been trying to come up with a line for using led to get BBB and use desperate research into some convoluted line, but I'm not sure it's much better than the hazoret's one.

I'll have to think about it some more. There could also be a green option with regrowth if there's a manamorphose in the yard. Not sure if that's any better than the scrap card that exiles on resolution.

GGG, get regrowth + past in flames.
Cast regrowth getting manamorphose and led.
Cast manamorphose (for g bc of ruby). Draw 2 and get RRRG.* Play led, cast pif for RRR, cracking led in response for RRR.

Pool has RRRG.

Cast regrowth with flashback, returning manamorphose and LED.

Play led, cast manamorphose cracking led for RRR. Drawing 2 more and now having 8 Mana in pool. (assuming all cards drawn are completely dead, hopefully not).

Flashback pif for RRRR.* Flashback bonus round for RR. Flashback manamorphose for R, with R remaining and +8 for a total of 7 red and 2 black. (and drawing 4 cards).

Hopefully you'll hit something by this point.

Will need to investigate other options here. Bonus round leads for interesting lines.

Bonus round + rock + wish and led for GGG.

Regrowth + Regrowth + Manamorphose (in graveyard).* If you don't mind 2 sb spots being taken up then this is an easy draw your deck solution.

Another thing maybe worth noting is if you have something like seething song + led + bonus round + burning wish you can get rite of flame and hazoret's undying fury even without a rock in play.

[perian]

Why aren't you maxing out Rite of Flames in your MDs?


I have found my thinking error. It's quite easy - all other good red rituals are instants. :laugh:

[mistercakes]

Another 5-0.

MAGGEN

Anyone on here? Curious about matchups, and why 0 act on impulse?

Congrats in any case. :)

[Metropolitano]

I follow this thread from the early days (august 2017) and now i decide to contribute with some experiences.

At first, congratulations (Mistercakes and Viecko) for this lovely deck concept. It allows to be competitive in Legacy without needing a great investment on staples. From the first moment i felt in love with this monocolour storm beast, and very interested on its development.

Actually i'm playing a "non LED version" of Ruby Storm on my local metagame, surprising (even nowadays) some unsuspecting players who end up tasting the power of flames...

I've also played some LED versions but i think this deck feels free on variations (we had the last proof this week, with a top8 playing a new vision of the deck, without bonus round and abusing on Reforge the Soul in a current metagame that is full of Canadian Threshold, for example).

My current list (but not the last one):

4 Ruby Medallion
2 Helm of awakening
4 Lotus petal
1 Sentinel tower

2 Guttersnipe

4 Manamorphose
4 Seething song
2 Desperate ritual
3 Lightning bolt

4 Rite of flame
4 Act on impulse
4 Burning wish
3 Bonus round
2 Past in flames
2 Empty the warrens

12 Mountain
3 Ancient tomb

Sideboard
3 Defense Grid
2 Silent gravestone
2 Scab-Clan Berserker
1 Past in flames
1 Tendrils of agony
1 Empty the warrens
1 Goblin war strike
1 Reforge the soul
1 Anger of gods
1 By force
1 Gamble

I'm testing Sentinel tower as an alternative win condition (as a 1x). I think it's very interesting in our strategy.
You can chain 5-6 spells, drawing cards and generating mana, and then cast sentinel tower (you can find it very often while chaining spells). Two or three spells after, your opponent is dead (lightning bolt can help too much in this question). It's so insane!

I also like so much Bonus round, although i scare a bit casting it against blue decks (doubling their counters too). Despite of this, "Fun" is an esential component of this deck, and i get fun even when i crash after a chain of spells without finding a win condition...

Guttersnipe is one of my fixed slots. They help a lot shooting and damaging (and ignoring Leyline of Sanctity hahaha).

The worst card is, by far, the helm of awakening. We have here two slots that would be replaced by another options, if possible.
Most of my lost matches have a reason: Helm of awakening accelerating my opponent...

Thank you guys for the development of this little beast... (and sorry for my poor "spanglish"...)

See you here,

[mistercakes]

glad to have someone else on board with the deck!

how has anger of the gods been? is it better for you than pyroclasm?

i agree that helm isn't so good. vieko hates it btw.i think if you really dislike them they can easily become LED's or Simian Spirit Guides. my only concern with cutting helms is that desperate ritual becomes a lot worse. i suppose it's a compromise.

i did try sentinel tower a bit when it was spoiled and liked it, but it was a bit clunky. i suppose in slower matchups it can really shine. guttersnipe is quite good and i'm always having mixed feelings about it. in theory it looks terrible, but when you play it the card wins games. pretty frustrated that even after playing with it a bunch (and getting some wins with it) i still overall dislike it!

[Karhumies]

Has Blood Sun been discussed post DRS and Probe ban? Seems like we have a bunch of flex slots md, so why not run at least a 1-of? It draws a card, gets cheaper with rocks, and can randomly destroy an opponent if they are heavily relying on fetchlands. With turn 1 DRS gone, I would guess that a turn 2 Blood Sun is much more powerful now than how it used to be before the ban?

[mistercakes]

i haven't looked at that card in some time. i did notice a japanese list running blood sun and scorched ruins which was an eldrazi deck running a singleton obliterate.

i suppose it could be okay. not sure if it's better than blood moon, but is cool. give it a shot i suppose.

[Metropolitano]

glad to have someone else on board with the deck!

how has anger of the gods been? is it better for you than pyroclasm?

i agree that helm isn't so good. vieko hates it btw.i think if you really dislike them they can easily become LED's or Simian Spirit Guides. my only concern with cutting helms is that desperate ritual becomes a lot worse. i suppose it's a compromise.

i did try sentinel tower a bit when it was spoiled and liked it, but it was a bit clunky. i suppose in slower matchups it can really shine. guttersnipe is quite good and i'm always having mixed feelings about it. in theory it looks terrible, but when you play it the card wins games. pretty frustrated that even after playing with it a bunch (and getting some wins with it) i still overall dislike it!


Anger is a bonus card when you face against zombardment (gravecrawler/bloodghast) or dredge (ignoring bridges from below), two pairings that are susceptible to be played after DRS ban.
Also has more range to kill some 3 thoughness threats (Leovold, Serra avenger) or to prevent pumping effects (goblin/merfolks lords).
With “Anger/By force” pack in sideboard I can put out Abrade and win two slots for surgical prevention (Silent gravestone x2).
Anger don’t feed opponent’s graveyard (delve, threshold strategies).

Sentinel tower can save you after a surgical on burning wish or PIF. And bonus round increases its voltage. I really like it and I think it fits on this deck, even being, effectively, a bit clunky.

I would to test faithless looting game lines, but actually I guess there are so many “chalice of the void” strategies being played (monored prison, loam decks, Eldrazi, even Soldiers XD) and we must avoid abuse on cost 1 spells.
What do you think about it?

[mistercakes]

I'm not sure I'm sold on anger, as Thalia is the more important threat for this deck.

I agree with avoiding 1cc if possible.

Ill post my list I've been goldfishing with. I have two (one with led and one without) when I have a little more time today.

[Glass House]

I've been very intrigued by Maggen's list. I made a few changes and goldfished a bit with it and while it does rely heavily on Past in Flames/flashback - making it extremely vulnerable to grave hate - it is incredibly consistent.
One little experiment I ran was trying a single Catalyst Stone and it seems to work out fine.
Another thing I tried was a list with LEDs (which really are a perfect fit in this list) and Scrap Mastery as a Wish target. It does generate some big mana but it might just be a win-more card. Worth noting that not only does it get back all your LEDs and Petals, but among all the discarding you are doing with Reforge the Soul, Faithless Looting and LEDs you end up with some Medallions in the graveyard as well, so you don't really lose any cost reducers.

[mistercakes]

Good find on catalyst stone. Cool interactions with shoving cards in graveyard with led and gamble. Will try it out. I have a sweet brew to test out. I think I can make my Saturday weekly.

It's cool that this card is kind of like pseudo hate vs ANT, who still relies a lot on past in flames. Also cool to hate on snapcaster and the random mirror match.

[mistercakes]

Updated the primer with my latest list.

[gato con botas]

please could put a deck with lion eye diamond

[mistercakes]

// 60 Maindeck
// 12 Artifact
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

// 10 Instant
4 Manamorphose
4 Seething Song
2 Lightning Bolt

// 16 Land
10 Mountain
2 Ancient Tomb
4 Rishadan Port

// 22 Sorcery
3 Rite of Flame
4 Burning Wish
3 Past in Flames
4 Act on Impulse
3 Bonus Round
3 Reforge the Soul
1 Chain Lightning
1 Faithless Looting


// 15 Sideboard
// 5 Artifact
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Defense Grid

// 10 Sorcery
SB: 1 Rite of Flame
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Hazoret's Undying Fury
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Bonus Round
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Fiery Confluence
SB: 1 By Force

[JosefK]

Rishadan port???

[mistercakes]

played a bunch of games against RUG delver last night and needed to change some of the spells in the deck (numbers) to squeeze in some Empty the Warrens maindeck. Bonus Round while strong vs non blue decks is a bit too much of a hurdle here, so needed to cut one.

SB is far from finished, but what I have now

// 60 Maindeck
// 12 Artifact
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

// 3 Creature
3 Simian Spirit Guide

// 8 Instant
4 Manamorphose
4 Seething Song

// 15 Land
2 Ancient Tomb
9 Mountain
4 Rishadan Port

// 22 Sorcery
4 Rite of Flame
4 Burning Wish
3 Past in Flames
4 Act on Impulse
2 Bonus Round
3 Reforge the Soul
2 Empty the Warrens


// 15 Sideboard
// 3 Artifact
SB: 3 Defense Grid

// 1 Instant
SB: 1 Kozilek's Return

// 11 Sorcery
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Fiery Confluence
SB: 1 Reforge the Soul
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Gamble
SB: 1 Goblin War Strike
SB: 1 Sadistic Sacrament


although the last 3 could be, Cave-In, and 2 Scab-Clan Berserkers as well.

[ahg113]

So the obvious use of Port is to stall the opponent until we feel there is an opportune time to go off. How has this plan worked for you? Has the addition of more non-basic lands been a detriment at all? Have you found yourself flooded with 6 non-red producing lands, or notice a difference between multi-tombs vs. ports?

I'm quasi-interested in getting ports, but it doesn't really feel necessary. Instead of bludgeoning an opponent with haymakers, this is a diversion into interaction. And, since there''s no other board based disruption, seems blah, no bolts or the sort either.

Draw go isn't great, granted. Does Port really make that big a difference?

[mistercakes]

I wouldn't say the main use is to stall the game, it's to give the deck a way to interact. Force them to make decisions, if you're lucky they will choose poorly. If not, it's still good to force decision trees besides deciding what they need to counter.

Feel free to proxy them if you don't own and test a matchup for a while.

Owning ports is never a bad thing anyway.

[JosefK]

What decisions does it force? I really can't see the benefits... If I were forced to play with utility lands I would probably start with karakas(good vs snt, Thalia, leovold and reanimator), boseju, barbarian ring (Thalia, canotist), or even cephalid coloseum before going for rishadan port. Would love to hear a more in depth reasoning...

[mistercakes]

I'll have to try to capture some games. Unfortunately since I moved from US to Germany I don't own a pc for modo.

Karakas is a great suggestion btw. I think it could easily be a sb card, if not maindeckable if your meta is full of that kind of stuff.

Edit, if anyone wants to test with me on cockatrice I have that on my Mac.

just had a really great hand goldfishing:

seething song, rite of flame, bonus round, rite of flame, lotus petal, burning wish, mountain.

how much damage can you get out of this without using reforge the soul. using this sb:


// 15 Sideboard
// 3 Artifact
SB: 3 Defense Grid

// 2 Creature
SB: 2 Scab-Clan Berserker

// 1 Instant
SB: 1 Abrade

// 1 Land
SB: 1 Karakas

// 8 Sorcery
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Fiery Confluence
SB: 1 Reforge the Soul
SB: 1 Shattering Spree

[Glass House]

Has anyone ever tried Hope of Ghirapur in the side? Could complement or replace Defense Grid.

[mistercakes]

I haven't tried it. If you do please post how it goes.

[JosefK]

how much damage can you get out of this without using reforge the soul. using this sb:


48?

[mistercakes]

Yep :)

[ronco]

I'm probably not BR mathing right, but i'm seeing 24: 2 castings of BR (plus 1 copy of BR) into to casting of fiery confluence + 3 copies of it, for 6x4= 24 damage.

Is that the line you are seeing?

edit - NVM, forgot the flashback again for the extra 24. got it!

[jugglervr]

Why is this dropping to the second page? who's got some results to share??

[mistercakes]

I have no recent results, I have been testing a new brew. (non combo) will return to this deck when I have some more time. Been goldfishing with it still from time to time. Have been trying out a 14 land build that runs 4 tomb, 6 mtn and 4 sandstone needle which seems to be decent. (4 ssg and 4 petal as well)

[Mr. Safety]

Why is this dropping to the second page? who's got some results to share??

Losing Gitaxian Probe was huge. One of the ways that the deck, in any interation, fueled its engine was through raw card draw (Probe, Manamorphose) so losing 'free' cantrips has hurt it's ability to consistently combo out. Perfect information was fairly critical, as most lists didn't play protection, instead relying on brute force and Past in Flames.

While there remains plenty of engines to use (Past in Flames, Reforge the Soul, Bonus Round) they all get significantly better if you can get free spells after you cast them. The fewer free spells, the more you rely on cost reducers like Ruby Medallion/Helm of Awakening, or you have to commit to investing in Lion's Eye Diamond to gain enough mana (and work around it's discard clause) to have mana floating after casting an engine. I tried subbing in Overmaster for Probe (to maintain at least the draw and relevant ability if not the 'free' cost) but it was fairly miserable unless I already had a nutty-good hand.

My next attempt will be with 2x Gamble and Faithless Looting. It puts the deck into Past in Flames, almost assuredly, g1. That should be fine without DRS in the format. G2 it will, by necessity, lean on Empty the Warrens more. This should be fine. Without LED's it's a lot harder now without Probe; Probe really was the poor-man's combo enabler.

[mistercakes]

Pretty simple approach with this list
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Helm of Awakening
4 Ruby Medallion

4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Act on Impulse
4 Burning Wish
3 Reforge the Soul
3 Empty the Warrens
2 Past in Flames

6 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Sandstone Needle

SB

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Pyroclasm
1 Kozilek's Return
1 Past in Flames
1 Apex of Power
1 Sadistic Sacrament
1 Fiery Confluence
1 Abrade
3 Defense Grid
1 Shattering Spree
1 Reforge the Soul

[Mr. Safety]

Pretty simple approach with this list
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Helm of Awakening
4 Ruby Medallion

4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Act on Impulse
4 Burning Wish
3 Reforge the Soul
3 Empty the Warrens
2 Past in Flames

6 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Sandstone Needle

SB

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Pyroclasm
1 Kozilek's Return
1 Past in Flames
1 Apex of Power
1 Sadistic Sacrament
1 Fiery Confluence
1 Abrade
3 Defense Grid
1 Shattering Spree
1 Reforge the Soul

I really don't like Sandstone Needle here; entering tapped with more Wastelands in the format is an unnecessary risk. I fully support Sol Lands, but not ones that enter tapped. I would also caution against too much reliance on Reforge the Soul. It's the nuts against non-blue decks, but those are a strong minority in the format.

Also surprised to see no Bonus Rounds in the 75.

[ahg113]

So I actually dropped G.Probe before the ban (although the ban does seriously piss me off). The loss of life in conjunction with A. Tomb was actually losing me a few games here and there that would make a round closer than it needed to be.

This is the list I've been working with to good results. I still am not good at mulligan decisions (personal/personnel? problem). As with any deck, it will lose to itself if the shuffling is against you, too much mana, too much action, too much mana, etc., but it still just overpowers when the right mix is available. The SB could use some tweaking, maybe a Fiery Confluence, only not in deck because I've hit my internal budget for magic cards, maybe I can trade/store credit for one...

I've been a big fan of Commune with Lava, works great with LED, scales with Rubies, and is silly with Bonus Round (but what isn't). The instant part is a great trick to pull on folks, manamorphose (with rock), seething song, can cast those spells on opponents EOT and untap with all those cards in exile to expand options. To replace G.Probe, I moved to a split of Faithless Looting and Overmaster. I would rather G.Probe, but they do the job somewhat adequately. I've found F.Looting to be great early in the game to sculpt hands, and Overmaster while chaining spells, or to bait a counterspell. It is a good psychological bluff.

Ruby Storm - Lightning Bonus
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Commune with Lava
10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Past in Flames
4 Rite of Flame
4 Act on Impulse
4 Burning Wish
2 Faithless Looting
2 Overmaster
3 Bonus Round

SB
3 Defense Grid
1 Past in Flames
1 Reforge the Soul
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 By Force
1 Cave-In
1 Pyroclasm
1 Shattering Spree
1 Chain Lightning
1 Banefire
1 Bonus Round
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot

[Mr. Safety]

I'm currently going to test Bonus Round, but Commune with Lava seems very good to me. Surprisingly enough, most of the red rituals are instants, which makes an EOT Commune with Lava pretty good. You can dump SSG/Desperate/Seething Song into a decent sized Commune and have access until the next turn. I like it better than Reforge the Soul for sure.