Ruby Storm

[mistercakes]

Tony has really been helming this deck for quite some time and his efforts have really mainstreamed the deck more with competitive players.

epic primer (https://theepicstorm.com/the-epic-ruby-storm/)
podcast (https://www.hipstersofthecoast.com/2021/04/tonyscapone-and-the-epic-ruby-storm/)

Fun Vintage Cards

https://i.imgur.com/2mAF3EP.png

The Legacy Equivalent

https://i.imgur.com/Bo18rRl.png

How?

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=4625&type=cardhttp://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=446024&type=cardhttp://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=503734&type=card



Ruby Storm:


Why would I play this?
You enjoy storm combo, but are tired of ANT/TES/High Tide. You enjoy playing with Lion's Eye Diamond and killing with Tendrils of Agony. You like being able to manage your storm and mana with only two dice.

Why shouldn't I play this?
Decks with ponder and brainstorm offer a little more consistency. Decks with black provide you with some hand disruption.

Let’s look for reasons to play a traditional storm deck like ANT or TES:

1) Optimized for its combo. Brainstorm/Preordain/Ponder for consistency, Ritual effects, Lotus Petal, LED for mana generation.
2) Duress/Thoughtseize/Cabal therapy for protection.
3) Fetch lands to help with deck manipulation and mana fixing.
4) Black/Red for tutor + past in flames/empty the warrens.
5) Blue/Green additionally for sideboarding

If you want to forego most protection, then you must play a speed game. Decks for that include:

1) Belcher
2) Oops
3) Spanish Inquisition

All of these are pretty rough to play against FoW decks, but you can still steal some wins and they are fun to play. IMHO they get a little boring as once you’ve mastered the lines of play there’s not a ton else to do.

Somewhere in the middle is Ruby Storm (mono red storm).

What are the benefits?

1) Mono colored deck. Ability to play lots of basic lands.
2) Not too many 1 drops to help consistency and optimize draws. (not as weak to chalice x=1)
3) Ability to play some non-basics that aren’t for consistency. (Ancient Tomb and Sandstone Needle that provide quicker kills.
4) Raw power cards, the cards while on their own aren’t at necessarily the same power level, together have great synergies.
5) Ability to play red cards that are typically too mana intensive for multicolored decks.

What does a decklist look like?

It changes a lot, but since the Gitaxian Probe banning, I have settled on this:

// 60 Maindeck
// 12 Artifact
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

// 10 Instant
4 Manamorphose
4 Seething Song
2 Desperate Ritual

// 14 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
6 Mountain
4 Sandstone Needle

// 24 Sorcery
3 Rite of Flame
4 Burning Wish
3 Past in Flames
4 Act on Impulse
3 Reforge the Soul
2 Hazoret's Undying Fury
4 Bonus Round
1 Fiery Confluence

// 15 Sideboard
// 6 Artifact
SB: 4 Defense Grid
SB: 2 Silent Gravestone

// 9 Sorcery
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Fiery Confluence
SB: 1 Hazoret's Undying Fury
SB: 1 Rite of Flame
SB: 1 Reforge the Soul
SB: 1 Shattering Spree



Let me discuss the card selection choices:
4 Ruby Medallion: Allows you to cast multiple spells in a single turn. Makes all of the red mana acceleration extremely powerful.

4 Lotus Petal: free mana acceleration

4 Lion’s Eye Diamond: Great acceleration and has a lot of synergy with Past in Flames, Act on Impulse, and Burning Wish.

4 Seething Song: nets 2 mana like dark ritual, but with a Ruby Medallion it will net +3 red mana. Also can filter colorless into red mana. Pretty silly with Bonus Round, Ruby Medallion, and Hazoret's.

4 Manamorphose: Mana Fixing + Cantrip. With Ruby Medallion or Bonus Round it also functions as mana acceleration.

2 Desperate Ritual: 1 to make up for the Rite of Flame in the SB, a 2nd because it can help you get to 3 mana for seething song and also filter ancient tomb mana into red. (also synergizes well with Hazoret's, Ruby, and Bonus Round.)

3 Rite of Flame: A good mana acceleration spell. Gets better with multiples and is pretty strong with Bonus Round. 1 in the sb.

4 Burning Wish: Tutors for 1R or just R with a Ruby Medallion out. With Bonus Round it can enable many turns that will end the game quickly. Allows for a SB with dedicated targets to dealing with different situations for mostly comboing off.

2 Hazoret's Undying Fury Can steal games. Another business spell for the deck. Extremely powerful with Bonus Round. (1 in the board)

3 Past in Flames (1 in the sb): Yawgmoth’s Will is banned and this card is actually better in this deck (most of the time). With Ruby Medallion the cost is the same as Will and there are many times when you will cast this multiple times. Has great synergy with Lion’s Eye Diamond.

4 Act on Impulse: 3 cards for 3 mana is pretty good. 3 cards for 2 or 1 mana is borderline vintage-power level. With Bonus Round you can flip 6, or 12, or 24 (depending on how many Bonus Rounds have been cast. Can be used to play around Surgical Extraction as your win conditions can’t be hit by it when in Exile. Has a lot of synergy with Lion’s Eye Diamond.

4 Bonus Round: This is one of the cards that is a good reason to play this deck. Other storm decks can't cast this reliably, but seething song and lands like sandstone needle allow this deck to do so. Consider it another enabler of manamorphose. It is extremely good all of the instant/sorcery ramp spells and most of your sorcery cards are game over when used with this. Also worth noting that once it resolves you can cast your spells through cards like Chalice of the Void and even Trinisphere (since the copies can still ramp you).

3 Reforge the Soul: Wheel of Fortune for 3RR. Can be miracled for R. Very good against discard decks and to help a bit vs counter magic. This card is one of the reasons to play this deck.

1 Fiery Confluence: Can kill on its own with 2 Bonus Rounds or Bonus Round + Past in Flames. Gets around Leyline of Sanctity. Also can function as a sweeper and artifact killer.

6 Mountain: 10 red sources minimum, see below for other 4.

4 Ancient Tomb: Functions as a +1 ritual effect the turn you play it and can also enable turn 1 Ruby Medallion or Defense Grids. Also can start with Lotus Petal into Seething Song for some dirty turn 1 plays.

4 Sandstone Needle: Helps smooth out some draws and allows you to play draw go a bit better. Comes into play tapped is obviously not great, but providing double red twice compensates.

Sideboard:

SB: 4 Defense Grid: Flex slots, Blue Decks (noted can come down turn 1 with Ancient Tomb/RoF).

SB: 2 Silent Gravestone: Protects you from surgical extraction and for those matchups also hates on snapcaster mage. Also has a draw effect which is not negligible.

SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony: Wish Target, easiest way to kill with low storm counts.

SB: 1 Grapeshot: Wish Target, can sweep the board and function as a win condition. Gets under Gaddock Teeg.

SB: 1 Empty the Warrens: Wish Target, easy to steal games. Many people with this deck also play more maindeck as most decks can’t interact well with lots of turn 1/2 goblins.

SB: 1 Reforge the Soul: Flex slot, Functions as a wheel of fortune here.

SB: 1 Past in Flames: Wish Target, needed at times to combo off.

SB: 1 Fiery Confluence: Flex slot, Wish Target, can also kill on its own with 2 Bonus Rounds. Gets around Leyline of Sanctity. Also can function as a sweeper and artifact killer.

SB: 1 Hazoret's Undying Fury: Hail Mary if you're too fearful to wish for Reforge against blue and don't want to go for goblins. Also extremely good if you have bonus round + wish + led. (get RoF + Hazoret's, flip 8 cards and hope to hit anything (most cards are legit outs here)).

SB: 1 Rite of Flame: Can be used early on (turn 2 to get an ramp spell), or to get it mid combo during a Bonus Round sequence.

SB: 1 Shattering Spree: Need another artifact hate, could be a number of different cards.



Potential card choices for main or sb.

SB: 1 Pyroclasm: Flex slot, Wish Target, cheap sweeper effect

Simian Spirit Guide: On color ramp and helps play around soft counters like daze, spell pierce, and to a lesser extent flusterstorm. Can also start off some mana chaining after a resolved Reforge the Soul

SB: Kozilek's Return: Flex slot, used for DNT matchup since it's an instant and can also get around Mother of Runes

SB:By Force or shattering spree: Flex slot, Wish Target, good against Chalice decks.

SB: Sadistic Sacrament: Flex slot, can be used against combo, in particular ANT which usually has no outs after this (assuming the card isn't in their graveyard or hand).

SB: Gamble Flex slot, good interaction with Bonus Round. Can be used to grab a past in flames if you have enough mana. (not completely sold on this one in this build. got a lot worse after probe banning.

SB: Goblin War Strike Flex slot, can help close out a game quicker.

Helm of Awakening
Gamble
Empty the Warrens
Reforge the Soul
Simian Spirit Guide
Hazoret's Undying Fury
Faithless Looting
Overmaster
Goblin Lore
Shreds of Sanity
Desperate Ritual
Commune with Lava
Epic Experiment
Gifts Ungiven

and more for SB
Defense Grid
Blood Moon
Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Goblin War Strike
Scab-Clan Berserker
Tormod's Crypt
Telemin Performance
Faerie Macabre
Surgical Extraction
Pithing Needle
Pyroblast
Red Elemental Blast
Boil
Boiling Seas
Anarchy
Blood Sun

How to play the deck
I'd recommend first goldfishing quite a bit. First of all, it's fun. Secondly, it's quite important to know how to sequence your spells with this deck.

First I think the biggest issue for players with this deck is that they want to treat it like a belcher deck. What I mean by that is that players want to go off as soon as possible. While that is entirely possible (turn 1 kills are possible with this deck), you wouldn't expect TES or ANT to try to go off on turn 1 (even though they are still capable). They tend to play a little slower to sculpt their draw vs blue decks and discard cards that would be a threat. With this deck you can roughly do the same by generating more mana.

For example: A deck like ANT can't really generate enough mana without thresshold to brute force their way through 2+ counterspells. TES is slightly faster, but generally there aren't enough business spells to force through.

A big point I want to make is that when ANT casts past in flames, they can usually cast a few rituals and a discard spell or two, but it's quite hard to cast the cantrips as it's a lot harder to generate blue mana in those situations. With this deck, you are likely to cast all of your cantrips and act on impulses. It makes almost any past in flames a must counter, even if it doesn't look like there is anything menacing in the graveyard.

Aim for somewhere around a turn 2-3 with this deck for when you first try to go off.

You should also be comfortable counting mana quickly.

Quick reference:
Rite of Flame. (First is +1, 2nd is +2, 3rd is +3, 4th is +4)
Seething Song. (+2, but with a Ruby it's +3, 2 rubies is +4)
Manamorphose. (with Ruby it's +1)
Ancient Tomb and LED. More obvious but +1 and +3 respectively.

Counting mana with Bonus Round:

with 1 bonus round:

RoF: +3, +5, +7, +9
Seething Song: +7 (with Ruby +8)
Desperate Ritual: +4 (with Ruby +5)
Manamorphose: +2 and draw 2 (+3 and draw 2 with ruby)

with 2 bonus round:
Rof: +7, +11, +15, +19
Seething Song: +17 (+18 with ruby)
Desperate Ritual: +10 (+11 with ruby)
Manamorphose: +6 and draw 4 (+7 with ruby and draw 4)

MATCHUPS

Lands (https://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18134&d=312417&f=LE)

They are generally a bit too slow here and not interactive enough on game 1. Be aware of Tabernacle and Glacial Chasm. Tendrils will kill through Chasm.
POST SB:
Lands tends to bring in some disruption in the form of Thorn Effects, Chalice effects and sometimes Leyline of Sanctity. Occasionally there is a Trinisphere.

Bring in abrades, possible a shattering spree. Bolts are less than stellar in this matchup so it's an easy swap.

Keep in mind guttersnipe (if you play it), and Fiery Confluence get around Leyline of Sanctity


Grixis Delver (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-grixis-delver-24421#paper)

This matchup is a bit of a skill tester. Clock, discard, counterspells, wasteland, and bolt maindeck. If they don't hit a threat fast then just slow roll them. (which is mostly just delver). Be aware that bonus round is symmetrical so lightning bolt can deal quite a bit. (3/6/12/24). don't go crazy if they have a land open. they only play 4 force, 4 daze, x spell pierce as their main interaction with counters. This deck doesn't really have a hard time with soft counters. Just remember that if your hand is average and they have delver + force + waste + another counter, it's okay to lose. You don't have to change the decklist, that's what their deck is designed to do. That draw will beat most decks.

Game 2/3. you can expect a bunch of stuff coming in. flusterstorm, surgical, marsh casualties (for gobbos), abrade, null rod, grafdigger's cage etc. i think just bringing in the usual grids + gravestones are good here, but consider removing some more bonus rounds than usual. the extra mana could be useful here. if you have a ton of this in your local meta, consider running some abrades in the sb.

the discard they have on you is pretty good, but you also have 3 reforge and can easily miracle back into the game.

*sometimes* these decks run stifle. if they do they can stifle the miracle trigger, storm triggers, and bonus round triggers.

[/B]Rug Delver (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-temur-delver-42035#paper)[/B]

RUG's strategy is to play a lone threat and stall the game out with countermagic until they can deal 20.

RUG threats:

Delver of Secrets
Nimble Mongoose
Tarmogoyf
Lightning Bolt


Protection

Force of Will
Daze
Spell Pierce
Flusterstorm
Spell Snare
Stifle


These counterspells are all problematic for Ruby Storm. Your option here is to push your way through with raw power. You can refill both players hands with reforge, but each one of your cards as you enter late stage become absolute must counters. Eventually they just run out or don't have the mana to keep up with you.

Disruption

Wasteland


In addition to the countermagic, wasteland can be strong against your Tombs and Needles.

Strategy
If you have a line where they are tapped out and you can pay for daze (if they have an island in play), go for it. If not, you might want to wait until you can overwhelm them in a single turn.

If I can't resolve an Empty, then I try to resolve a Ruby Medallion as soon as possible. RUG delver relies a lot on its soft counters. Ruby Medallion allows you to cast your spells for less, and generate enough mana to pay for Spell Pierce and Daze easily.

You generally have around 3-5 turns from when their threat was deployed, but it could be less if you are actively using Ancient Tomb.

Sideboarding

Defense Grid is very strong here. Your sweepers are also great. Thirdly, you can consider running the Scab-Clan Berserker if he's in your 75.
Boil could also be a strong sb card since it only costs 2R with Ruby and can be played on their end step, which should force them to interact with you.

Beware of Surgical Extraction. It can be okay to side out a Past in Flames here, possibly 2 if you think they are really pushing on the graveyard hate.
Also beware of Lightning Bolts, as they become very dangerous when paired with your own Bonus Rounds.

Fiery Confluence should be sided in with a Kozilek's Return. If you don't ever want to wish for Pyroclasm, side that in as well. Delvers threats die to these cards, except for goyf, which tends to get sided out in the storm matchup.

OPPONENTS SB CARDS

Surgical Extraction
Grafdigger's Cage
Flusterstorm
Spell Pierce
Rough // Tumble
Abrade


Will update these over time, and will ask for some feedback from others.


Miracles (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-miracles-37971#paper)

Miracles is a matchup where we are the favorite game 1, and I feel like the deck has a pretty fair shot of winning games 2/3.

Key cards game 1:
Ruby Medallion is pretty big here, as it allows you to beat their soft counters. Miracles relies on counterspells and sometimes counterbalance to keep them in the game long enough to win or stall you out with jace. Ruby Medallion makes so many cards must deal with threats that it can be overwhelming. It also allows you to jam multiple spells easily in a single turn.

Past in Flames is able to keep the game going long even when the opponent has exhausted most of your spells for the first time. Because this latest version has 3 maindeck PiF and 1 sb PiF, if the spell is not dealt with game 1, it's almost always game over if you are mid to late game. Games 2 and 3 you will want to protect yourself with defense grid and silent gravestone to avoid surgical extractions.

Reforge the Soul is very important for the matchup, as it allows you to refresh your hand (and theirs). Fortunately they have a limited number of ways of interaction, but all of your spells are redundant and you'll get there by brute force. Keep in mind with Ruby Medallion the miracle effect is only R.

Act on Impulse and Hazoret's are both must counter cards, but they have a bit more randomness involved so I wouldn't consider them as important. Both are great topdecks. AoI especially midgame (with a Ruby out).

Sideboarding:

Miracles players will tend to leave in a few removal spells (terminus) so they have an out to empty the warrens. They will bring in more counterspells. Flusterstorm, spell pierce, and blue elemental blast (hydroblast) are all possible. Surgical extraction should be expected as well. Your main way of interacting is with 4 grid and 2 gravestone. Feel free to cut 2 bonus round, 2 led, 2 desperate ritual, 1 past in flames for 4 grid, 2 gravestone and 1 additional wincon.)

Moon Stompy (https://mtgtop8.com/event?e=17698&d=309647&f=LE)
Elves (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-elves-24420#paper)
ANT (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-ad-nauseam-tendrils-24413#paper)
TES (http://theepicstorm.com)
Death and Taxes (http://www.thrabenuniversity.com)
Stoneblade (https://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18075&d=312147&f=LE)
GrixisControl (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-grixis-36749#paper)
Sneak and Show (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-sneak-and-show-24417#paper)
Eldrazi (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-eldrazi-stompy-24654#paper)


Turbo Depths (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-turbo-depths-43171#paper)
NicFit (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31293-Primer-Nic-Fit)
Food Chain (https://mtgtop8.com/event?e=17911&d=311048&f=LE)
Bug Aluren (https://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18149&d=312520&f=LE)
Maverick (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-punishing-maverick-37091#paper)
Aggro Loam (https://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18149&d=312518&f=LE)
Reanimator (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-b-r-reanimator#paper)

UR delver (https://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18081&d=312200&f=LE)
Tron/Post Eldrazi (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-eldrazi-post-43826#paper)
Burn (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-burn-32699#paper)
Dredge (LED) (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-dredge-42022#paper)

[Fox]

I think the more efficient & resilient strategy is Dark Rit -> Doomsday -> Act on Impulse or Three Wishes. Exile an LED or two, and use them to cast cards not in hand.

[mistercakes]

i'm pretty sure that has nothing to do with this deck and if you're going to compare another deck, then just play ANT.

[Fox]

i'm pretty sure that has nothing to do with this deck and if you're going to compare another deck, then just play ANT.

It's a 6 mana Act on Impulse. It's a pretty direct comparison. I mean you can free-cast stuff, but this is like tier 5 brewing; move it to modern deck development?

This is a 6 mana sorcery that lowers its own EV by having any copies of itself in the same deck. 1x it in the sideboard and Wish for it, that's about the only hope for this card getting played/sort of built-around in legacy.

[mistercakes]

it's most certainly not a 6 mana act on impulse. it seems to be a very powerful card. it's my first draft, but i think the deck could be quite strong in its own right. it's major issue is that it is a glass cannon deck. the deck can go off on turn 2-3 pretty consistently (lethal)

helm of awakening, ruby medallion, burning wish are not modern legal. rite of flame and seething song are banned.

anyway, constructive criticism is welcomed, but what you mentioned is borderline trolling.

[Fox]

anyway, constructive criticism is welcomed, but what you mentioned is borderline trolling.

A good rule to live by concerning Helm of Awakening effects is don't run them; but if you're determined to, you absolutely need to be playing P-Fire.

The easiest way for big mana, mono-red to win a game of legacy is Chalice on 1 (+/- turbo Moon), and the easiest way to do that is Sol Lands...so you're making a bad Big-Red/Dragon Stompy deck that is as fragile as Belcher but also slower and with built-in nonbos.

The formula the deck has to adhere to is solved, because all big mana mono-red decks are essentially "cheese" - and that's a valid strategy. It's just hard to take a list like this seriously when it has no 1-drops, huge mana, and no Chalice. Do you want to make a Chalice on 1 Belcher-style deck or do you want to play some strange P-Fire grindy stormy thing? Either way, the 6 drop sorcery has to reside in the board - maybe you were under the impression that if its cost were reduced to 5 or less that it can free-cast itself like Mind's Desire? The cmcs of this deck are pretty outrageous, have you considered Vial Smasher or Sin Prodder?

Edit: Rite of Flame, there is a one drop.

[mistercakes]

the deck could certainly drop the rite of flames for 4x chalice if it's looking to get some free wins. it's definitely worse in the current configuration than the blood moon decks with regard to cheesing out a free win with a blood moon/chalice. that's totally okay.

i suggest just loading it up on cockatrice for a few games just to see how it works. it's been pretty rewarding doing some solitaire.

from what i've seen in the solitaire games the cc isn't so bad. i'd recommend jamming a bunch of games on there just to see how it plays out. the deck isn't as clunky as you make it seem. i also understand how the reduction in mana cost works. hitting a 2nd hazoret is fine. you are out a card, but hitting any ramp spell is huge and hitting a reforge the soul/past in flames generally means game over.

if you have a past in flames in hand prior to casting and hit a reforge, you can flashback past in flames and also go off a 2nd time. some weird lines of play involve casting burning wish for R getting the past in flames and then casting the 6cc spell.

obviously a huge bonus if you cut the rite of flames is that you can run chalice and you are immune to chalice. the deck would definitely then at this point want to run some sol lands. i haven't figured out a configuration for running sol lands in a deck like this. it's entirely possible a better build runs something like that.

i'll have to come up with a few more drafts to see how the deck might run something like that. after doing a lot of goldfishing though, it seems like the # of business spells needs to remain around what it currently has.

my main concern with running a chalice build is that if you hit a chalice with this flip 4 card, you're also out a card. you really want to just hit the red spells or reduction spells. the apes end up being 2/2's when you flip them.

because of flipping the chalices, it might be better to stick to the rite of flame.

[rufus]

It's really sad that it doesn't chain. Can you go full jank with Mizzix's Mastery?

[mistercakes]

it might be okay as a 1 of or definitely a wish target. the main issue is the spell isn't in the graveyard yet if you flip it. i like the idea of casting the overload with all the ritual effects.

[Karhumies]

Either way, the 6 drop sorcery has to reside in the board - maybe you were under the impression that if its cost were reduced to 5 or less that it can free-cast itself like Mind's Desire?

I believe the general idea is that the cmc 6 sorcery will hit enough rituals, helms, medallions and potentially reforge the soul that you can easily just cast the second copy of the cmc 6 spell using a bunch of mana in your pool once the deck starts going which will result in self-sustaining iterations of the cmc 6 spell going bonkers.

The 4th copy of the card could possibly be in the sideboard to help you keep the iterations going when flipping cmc6 into BW, but that seems like win-more since you are probably going for EtW or Grapeshot at that point and you want the extra chance of getting the first cooy of the cmc6 spell into hand -> 4MD?

[mistercakes]

Yea my first draft did have 3 main 1 sb, but the deck wanted more business spells in the maindeck. You don't need to have a 2nd copy in your hand. Hitting any of the Business spells in hand or off the flip (other than flipping another 6 cc) can result in a huge chain.

One thing to take note of is that if you have a reduction artifact in play, manamorphose is a ramp spell that cantrips.

I still haven't thought of any other good business spells, any ideas are appreciated!

[mistercakes]

going through another draft.

the deck needed more business spells and Fox had a point about Act on Impulse.

Pyromancer ascension isn't a very good draw and was only really great when hit for free.

next iteration of the deck:

4 helm of awakening
4 ruby medallion

4 simian spirit guide

4 desperate ritual
4 seething song
4 rite of flame
4 manamorphose
2 pyretic ritual

4 burning wish
3 act on impulse
3 past in flames
3 hazoret's undying fury
3 reforge the soul

14 mountain


sb:


1 hazoret's undying fury
2 grapeshot
1 past in flames
1 reforge the soul
1 ignite memories
1 act on impulse
1 empty the warrens
X ???


so with the reduction spell, act on impulse is either 1R draw 3 or with 2 medallions it's R draw 3. it's also a great spell to hit off of hazoret's undying fury. helps you not fizzle a lot better than pyromancer.

[mistercakes]

updated. deck is still super fun to goldfish with. will try a few rounds on cockatrice to see how it goes.

[morgan_coke]

This is really interesting, I still think you want to at least consider Chalice here. It's free wins, it's asymmetrical, and it's protection for your combo. Fow doesn't do jack if all the cantrips are turned off.

[mistercakes]

i tried chalice, but i think the deck needs actual game testing to see the value in it. goldfishing with chalice isn't so useful. once i sleeve up the deck i'll report more. the sol lands are definitely an improvement, and i might want one more mountain in the maindeck. not sure what i'd cut yet.

in a few goldfish games, sometimes just using all 6 mana for the new card can lucksack through. othertimes if you hit a 1 or 2 reduction artifacts you can set yourself up for an easy following turn as well.

i played 1 match vs shardless. game 1 he had double force + wasteland. game 2 i sided out the undying card b/c i forgot it wasn't legal...and it's listed as wildfire in my deck. i sided them out and stormed on turn 3 or so. game 3 he had multiple discard and i faltered on getting a red mana (he discarded my spirit guides).

[maharis]

i just loaded this into tapped out and lol

t1: mountain, spirit guide, helm
t2: mountain, helm, wish for act
t3: mountain, act, rite, desperate, reforge, desperate, desperate, exile spirit guide, reforge again, seething song, exile guide, wish for ignite memories, past in flames, then i lost track of what was going on. Didn't even need the new card!

[maharis]

ahhhh

t1: spirit guide, rite of flame, pyretic, helm, manamorphose x2, past in flames, rite, pyretic, manamorphose x2, hazoret, more rituals, flash back PIF, flash back hazoret, more rituals, act on impulse, reforge, burning wish for grapeshot

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Slow down over there bud!

This deck seems ridiculous.

[mistercakes]

try the new version. it feels a lot better.


// 60 Maindeck
// 12 Artifact
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Helm of Awakening
4 Lotus Petal

// 4 Creature
4 Simian Spirit Guide

// 12 Instant
4 Manamorphose
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song

// 14 Land
7 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors

// 1 Planeswalker
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance

// 17 Sorcery
4 Burning Wish
3 Past in Flames
3 Reforge the Soul
3 Act on Impulse
4 Wildfire


// 15 Sideboard
// 4 Enchantment
SB: 4 Blood Moon

// 2 Planeswalker
SB: 2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance

// 9 Sorcery
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Reforge the Soul
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 2 Grapeshot
SB: 3 Fiery Confluence
SB: 1 Rite of Flame

[Karhumies]

try the new version. it feels a lot better.

First goldfish:
Opening 7: tomb, city, helm, ssg, petal, BW, seething song
t1 no draw. tomb, helm

t2 draw manamorphose.
play petal and crack, ssg mana, manamorphose (draw hazoret), city of traitors, cast hazoret. hazoret hits double ruby medallion, seething song and reforge the soul. Respond to Reforge the soul by casting seething song from hand. discard bw, draw 7: 3 land, helm, medallion, BW, Reforge the soul. Play helm for 1 (when against a real opponent, this should probably be left into exile) and medallion for free. Play Reforge the soul with RR. Discard all, draw 7: 2 land, seething song, act on impulse, BW, Past in Flames. Cast Seething Song. Manamorphose draw land. Act on impulse hits hazoret, petal, guide. cast guide just because, cast petal and crack, I have pretty much lost the count of stuff already. cast hazoret for RR. Hit helm, act on impulse, manamorphose, chandra. cast all, morphose draws desperate ritual, cast it, impulse hits 2 lands and impulse. cast impulse, hits reforge the soul, past in flames and petal. cast petal and crack, cast path in flames for R. Cast all rituals a second time, cast 3 manamorphose, cast 3 impulse. at this point there is only one card left in the deck. manamorphose from exile to draw it, uptick chandra for mana. Cast 3 Burning Wishes. Get 3x Fiery Confluence and cast them. cast path in flames. Cast the 3 Fiery Confluences a second time for lethal. Show the Burning Wish you left uncasted and the Grapeshot in the sb, make a trollface, do the knights of the hokey pokey dance.

I would like to see more EtW in the SB to be boarded in against live opponents because grave hate will hurt in g2 and g3. Hitting EtW accidentally with Hazoret mid-chain seems legit in g2. I might even be tempted to run 1 copy in MD.

Also, the Blood moons could be Defense Grids? Although I am not 100% sure how Helm + Grid works together, Grid can be casted t1 with sol land. We also have the option to board in Chalice @1 but I believe the Grid is much better.

[mistercakes]

going to try 3 rite of flame over the 3 city of traitors. hopefully with 15 initial red sources the deck should help for more explosive starts. i guess it's more of a balance...

any other good red spells here? i tried faithless, but it wasn't really working well.

[mistercakes]

// 60 Maindeck
// 12 Artifact
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Helm of Awakening
4 Lotus Petal

// 4 Creature
4 Simian Spirit Guide

// 12 Instant
4 Manamorphose
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song

// 11 Land
7 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb

// 1 Planeswalker
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance

// 20 Sorcery
4 Burning Wish
3 Past in Flames
3 Reforge the Soul
3 Act on Impulse
4 Wildfire
3 Rite of Flame


// 15 Sideboard
// 4 Enchantment
SB: 4 Blood Moon

// 2 Planeswalker
SB: 2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance

// 9 Sorcery
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Reforge the Soul
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 2 Grapeshot
SB: 3 Fiery Confluence
SB: 1 Rite of Flame

[mistercakes]

Tweaked it a little more


// 60 Maindeck
// 12 Artifact
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Helm of Awakening
4 Lotus Petal

// 4 Creature
4 Simian Spirit Guide

// 12 Instant
4 Manamorphose
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song

// 13 Land
9 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb

// 19 Sorcery
4 Burning Wish
3 Past in Flames
3 Reforge the Soul
3 Act on Impulse
4 Hazoret's Undying Fury
2 Rite of Flame


// 15 Sideboard
// 4 Enchantment
SB: 4 Blood Moon

// Artifact
SB: 4 Defense Grid

// 7 Sorcery
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Reforge the Soul
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 2 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Fiery Confluence
SB: 1 Rite of Flame

[mistercakes]

updated with a better opening post.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

So here's the problem I'm seeing: you have no protection and are using reforge the soul to basically let your opponent dig for an answer. I think this means that while you goldfish well in real life you'll get hosed pretty hard when you give out a free force of will. Or flusterstorm, or stifle because your wincon is reliant on storm off a wish target. With 55% of decks (according to mtgoldfish) playing force of will you may even consider four red elemental blasts main. Definitely in the side.
I don't know how this will affect your game though. If it hurts it too much you might have to go to Modern. Which isn't me trying to be dismissive, I think there's something to this (I especially like the interaction of exiting-as-drawing and hellbent) I just don't see a significant reason that makes this better than existing storm decks.

[frafen]

It sure looks like a fun deck to play. I agre that maybe some REB could help protecting the combo.

[mistercakes]

I'll be able to do testing once the new set is on modo. Just had a baby last month so I haven't been playing IRL.

the 4 defense grid should be a good start, it's also possible that some maindeck red blast (or Pyro for storm count) could be useful.

This deck is a lot less affected by chalice and doesn't care at all about blood moon. It also cares a bit less about Leovold.

[mistercakes]

had to leave magical christmasland and will run some maindeck protection.

Overmaster seems reasonable, since it cantrips at its worst.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/689113#paper

[tarmogoat]

You might want to have an All is Dust in the board in case you want to wish for a boardwipe that lets you play out any game and deal with enchantments like Rule of Law or Back to Basics.

[mistercakes]

Thanks will test it as well.

[mistercakes]

Current list. Also, is it possible for an Op to change the thread name to Mono Red Storm? I was trying to be clever earlier and there's no point. Updated! Throw us a PM next time as we may not see it in the thread. -J


10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Act on Impulse
4 Burning Wish
1 Desperate Ritual
3 Empty the Warrens
3 Hazoret's Undying Fury
4 Helm of Awakening
4 Lotus Petal
4 Manamorphose
3 Past in Flames
2 Reforge the Soul
4 Rite of Flame
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Seething Song
4 Simian Spirit Guide

sideboard

1 Cave-In
1 Empty the Warrens
3 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Grapeshot
1 Hazoret's Undying Fury
1 Mizzix's Mastery
1 Past in Flames
1 Reforge the Soul
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Shattering Spree

[vieko]

I sincerely, cannot wait to run this at my weekly Legacy :)

[mistercakes]

Modo testing begins next week! Also have some new ideas with vieko but want to try them out first before posting.

[mistercakes]

In the meanwhile this is where I'm at without doing changing anything major.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/689113#paper

You can also run desperate ritual over rite of flame if your local meta is infested with chalice.

[Hopo]

To address the glass-cannon issues: Some amount of Overmaster?

[Karhumies]

To address the glass-cannon issues: Some amount of Overmaster?

MD Defense Grid from the previous MtgGoldfish list seems stronger to me. We are not going to interact during the opponent's turn anyhow so the effect is asymmetric, multiples stack together, it protects multiple spells (not only sorceries) per turn, and we can cast it pre-actively before the combo turn (using Sol lands) to "save mana" during the combo turn.

Overmaster does draw a card, though, so if there is ever flex slots in the 75, it's a solid choice for filler.

[mistercakes]

Check my link. I tried overmaster and it didn't work out grid seems good for now. :)

Grid is also a lot better for reforge, so the act on Impulse had to sit out for now. (can keep one if you cut an empty.)

[10leej]

I actually really like this list. Was there any consideration something like Commune with Lava? or is that too mana intensive? I haven't tried it in legacy, but it's done well enough in modern.

[mistercakes]

Honestly I hadn't seen that card before in a deck. It seems okay and it could be okay to do it for 2 or 3 on opponents end step before your combo turn.

The x spells would be a bit better depending on how many mana rocks you have in play too.

The only main issue is if you flip it with hazoret's, it's a dead card.

[mistercakes]

could also go this way if you're more into all in combo.


10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Act on Impulse
4 Burning Wish
4 Defense Grid
3 Hazoret's Undying Fury
4 Helm of Awakening
4 Lotus Petal
4 Manamorphose
3 Past in Flames
2 Reforge the Soul
4 Rite of Flame (or 4 desperate ritual)
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Seething Song
4 Simian Spirit Guide


If you're afraid of having only wish as a wincon, you can run 1 MD grapeshot or 1 MD empty in place of a defense grid.

[Nocioni88]

Something like Pyromancer’s Goggles?


Inviato dal mio iPhone utilizzando Tapatalk

[mistercakes]

Feel free to try it, I thought it looked too expensive to cast.

[KIP_NZ]

Love it, I'm going to run this at our weekly next week! (I only attend fortnightly due to life)

[mistercakes]

that sounds awesome. i'm really happy some other people are going to play it.

will you have the new card by then?

[KIP_NZ]

that sounds awesome. i'm really happy some other people are going to play it.

will you have the new card by then?

We allow 30 "playtest" cards so I'll just proxy em :)

[mistercakes]

that's great.

i just tried a mtgo league without hazoret's and went 2-3.

ANT 0-2 (game 1 an AoI whiffed completely), game 2 i got crushed
UR Delver 2-1 (game 1 i lost to aggro start)
Red Stompy 2-1
Food Chain (1-2) won g1, g2 and g3 multiple mindbreak trap + leovold in both games, also force of will in game 3.
Czech Pile (1-2) won game 1. game 2 i mulled and kept a risky 6 nonland. promptly lost never drawing a land. game 3 i durdled around a bit. he had a strix and a snapcaster. he double thoughseized me but only hit a manamorphose and another ritual. he lands a leovold. only out here is using lots of AoI. i topdeck a chandra and have the past in flames in hand.

i can hope to chain off of the AoI. i cast desperate ritual, add RRR, cast PiF. he invasive surgery without the kicker thing. then i recast it. he FoW. then i cast chandra reveals burning wish. at this point i only have 1 red mana left. i cast wish anyway and he flusterstorms. sometimes they just have everything!

deck is obviously a lot more vulnerable to leovold without hazoret's. in this version the deck is more dependent on reforge the soul. had i landed a defense grid, i think i had the game. he abrupt decayed my grid before i got to go off.
all in all i'm pretty satisfied with this draft considering it doesn't even have the most powerful card in the list.

the only match that was rough was the storm one, and i have beaten it a few times in the practice room...but you never know how good they are.


here's the ghetto version i played.

10 mtn
4 tomb
4 petal
4 grid
4 wish
4 desperate
4 helm
4 ruby
4 simian
4 seething
4 manamorphose
4 act on impulse
2 past in flames
1 chandra, torch of defiance
3 reforge the soul

sb:
1 rite of flame
1 apocalypse (seems fun w/ AoI, but probably terrible)
1 grapeshot
1 pyroclasm
4 leyline of the void
1 helm of obedience
1 empty the warrens
1 past in flames
1 chandra, torch of defiance
1 reforge the soul
1 pulverize (what was i thinking?)
1 by force

i think until next week this deck can work. the leyline helm wasn't so useful in these matchups, but vs reanimator it would have been great.

if i knew i was going to play against 3 blue decks 1 combo deck and a stompy deck...i would have played some pyroblasts probably. need to have a way of dealing with leovold. other option is running 2-3 fiery confluence, but i don't have them on modo.

there should also likely be a cave-in, which i have on my paper list.

worth double noting. leovold isn't THAT good against this deck compared to other storm decks....when the new card comes out. i'd say the strongest part of leovold is that he stops your manamorphoses from cantripping, which can be important.


chandra was also pretty great. it won me a game or two (even if it did just cycle a card during the combo turn)

-Rob

[mistercakes]

updated first post: list

[rufus]

I'm curious whether a Faithless Looting/Mizzix's Mastery/Increaseing Vengeance package would work with the deck.

[mistercakes]

As long as it would benefit the deck as a whole then it's worth trying. Looting does help put the inconsistencies with the deck. When I have used it though I rarely can find a card I want to discard other than past in flames!

Increasing vengeance is a good catch. Might be okay as a one of.

I've tried Mizzix's in the sb as a wish target and only got it one time to play around surgical extraction.

I'll try cutting 1 Helm and 1 grid for 2 looting. That should put the useful spellcount higher, which is sometimes needed. It also only costs R after past in flames. It's also a great hit off of hazoret's or AoI to get rid of chaff drawn by manamorphose or reforge.

[10leej]

Honestly I hadn't seen that card before in a deck. It seems okay and it could be okay to do it for 2 or 3 on opponents end step before your combo turn.

The x spells would be a bit better depending on how many mana rocks you have in play too.

The only main issue is if you flip it with hazoret's, it's a dead card.

Good point I was just looking at it currently.

[rufus]

As long as it would benefit the deck as a whole then it's worth trying. Looting does help put the inconsistencies with the deck. When I have used it though I rarely can find a card I want to discard other than past in flames!

Increasing vengeance is a good catch. Might be okay as a one of.
...

To be honest, I got stuck on the idea of using Mizzix's Mastery and fork effects as a way to chain undying furies.

[mistercakes]

yea that's fair. i think past in flames (3 in md, 1 sb) is usually strong enough to recast them. if there was another big bomb spell to hit i would be tempted.

[onemancannon]

I've moved away from glass cannon and storm variants over the past few years but this has really piqued my interest.

I haven't been able to test your list in the OP just yet, but a few thoughts immediately come to mind:

1. Typical glass cannon can win t1 without being disrupted. If you plan on passing the turn, you open yourself up to discard, chalice, trinisphere, or any of the one U counterspells including daze and Force of will.
Because of this, I was always happy with MonoR Sneak in the sense that it ran 4 chalice and 4 Blood moon. Running 8 must counter cards always felt right, so 4 Grid and 4 Moon could be the answer here.

2. You eluded to amazing cards in Vintage, so where is Lion's Eye Diamond!? With Act on Impulse and Past in Flames, it may as well be a Black Lotus. An old storm variant "Grinding station" used PiF and LED to grind out smaller storm counts, but I believe the deck's slow nature reduced its competitiveness. LED is a bomb here.
Reforge the soul, like Wheel, IMO has that disgusting downside of giving your opponent a fresh 7 especially if you're attempting an early kill and they were forced to mull low.
Have you considered burning inquiry? In this shell, it acts like an Ancestral AND disruption if sequenced properly.

3.Lastly, I would just like to touch on the board. Whether it was belcher or TES, I always wanted 7ish actual cards to board in for certain matchups with 8ish dedicated wish targets. I really like 4 pyroblasts here.

I look forward to actually testing this and chiming in with my two cents. We never got to play Mind's Desire in Legacy; this is as close as we're gonna get!

Edit: Someone eluded to modern mono red storm earlier. I'd like to see if locket of yesterdays is better than helm.

[mistercakes]

Lot to digest in here. I'm also a pretty avid combo player and am quite familiar with other stock lists.

This deck is only a glass cannon in the sense that it doesn't protect itself very well. I've been trying defense grid maindeck, and while I'm not completely sold on it maindeck, it has been proven quite good depending on the matchup.

What this deck does do rather well is overwhelm the opponent. I've had games where I've won through 5 counterspells.

Discard is already considered as there is enough redundancy through the spells and past in flames.

Cards like chalice aren't so useful in most builds of my deck, this is why I prefer desperate ritual over rite of flame. Chalice for 2 is usually too slow. Trinisphere is a problem, as it is for most decks, and a burning wish for an answer is required.

LED is a great card, and it could be great in this deck as well. It will require testing. The main issue here is card slots. There will also be some hands where it doesn't start the combo off or help you cast your reduction rocks.

It also provides opponent with a big incentive to chalice on 0. Feel free to try and let me know what you would cut for them.

The sb is really all over the place and feel free to try stuff out. The defense grids have been quite good so far and am not sure we need that much more disruption. An extra Pyroblast could help, I've tried them, but am not sold on them. I don't really feel inclined to protect any single spell, as they need to also have a clock or do something important. Otherwise you just go off in a turn or two again.

Locket of yesterdays is not better :)

[P-E]

For protection don't forget the colorless xantid with it and grid maybe you have enough protection

[mistercakes]

played a quick league. went 1-4, but should have been 2-3 due to me not knowing that you place all spells from hazoret's on the stack instead of one at a time. if you do hit a past in flames with hazoret's, then make sure you click past in flames first!

first match, miracles.
(should have been 2-0, but ended up 1-2)
i beat him turn 2 game 1. game 2 i had gone off and flipped over rite of flame, past in flames, and act on impulse with a rock out. i clicked past in flames last, but it was the first resolved. unfortunately for me had i been able to recast both of those spells again i would have won. game 3 i mulled to 5 and he got an early jace and couldn't recover.

match 2, TES
1-2
it's just a race. he turn two'd me on game 2 and turn 1'd me on game 3.

match 3, i think it was bant deathblade
2-0
I had pretty much goldfish draws even though he had multiple FoW. i did have a turn 1 kill during one of the games.

match 4, Grixis Pyromancer running portent.
1-2
Game 1 i made 8 goblins, but he had 3 pyromancer and was able to draw some cantrips. (his starting 7 was 3 pyromancer, FoW and 3 lands. i had probed him. he died at 3, so if i had one more spell in opening hand, i had 2 ssg, then 10 goblins would have gotten there.)
Game 2 i was able to combo off
Game 3 he got there

match 5, ANT
1-2
game 1 he durdled a bit and i did too, but my keep of ancient tomb + a bunch of win conditions and mana didn't get there since after 5 draw steps i never drew a mountain, petal, or simian spirit guide.
game 2 i beat him on turn 1.
game 3 he beat me on turn 1. (i also had a turn 1 kill ready, but never got to my draw step!)

overall the deck felt pretty good. i don't mind losing to combo and the blue decks felt fine.

[jdmdave]

Always been a sucker for this type of thing. Is there any reason we don't just go BR and run black rituals?

Eagerly await more results.

[mistercakes]

I tried some builds with black rituals and the main problem is that you can't chain a red ritual off of a black one. Since most of the business spells are red that I would want, I think it's better to stick to one color.

[mistercakes]

r1: Jund (qbturtle15). on the draw.
Game 1. he had no disruption and i won on t2 quite easily. he played a t2 deathrite.
Game 2. he had duress and thoughtseize with 2 grim flayers. he also kologhan's command my ruby medallion. reforge the wheel gave me an easy win.

r2: 4 color control (olioolli)
Game 1. i had a very strong turn 1, but fizzled after a bad hazzoret's (hit 1 act on impulse and 3 lands). he followed up his turn 1 DRS with leovold. then he brainstormed into a FoW. (i was able to burning wish for a past in flames, but when he FoW'd, it was exiled. drew dead after that.)
Game 2. turn 1 ruby medallion off of mtn, ssg. he starts off with usea/ponder. shuffle. turn 2 14 goblins and a defense grid.
chain was. manamorphose, desperate, act on impulse, petal, grid, song, warrens. he follows with a ponder/shuffle and DRS. i draw hazzorets. he plays statiscaster and attacks. ancient grudge on my ruby and grid. he played 2 deathrite shaman, jace, and two FoW. he won at 3 life.

r3: (tkc55) on play.
Game 1: Ruby Medallion on turn 2 with 2 mtn. (he has t1 brainstorm, turn 2 decay, turn 3 mainphase brainstorm and sylvan library).
he forces the end of my chain. obvious he's not too sure what to do. he pays 4 with sylvan and casts manipulate fate. reveals he's on foodchain. casts angler. i cast hazorets into mountain, mountain, mountain, tomb. (i had 11 lands left in my deck)

Game 2: turn 1 tomb grid which gets forced. (he pitches strix). he t1 ponder.
i make 6 goblisn and pass. it felt like he had a 2nd force based on how long he waited he cast ponder and DRS.

haz into pif, aoi, song. that made up for the first game!

Game 3: opening hand of grid, manamorph, petal, 2 mtn, song, pif.

i go turn 2 grid. he decays it. my turn 3 i cast ruby, petal, manamorphose, song, aoi (he forces) i cast pif. he mindbreak traps. rough.
he plays leovold. i play 2nd medallion. i dont recover. sometimes fow + mbt + leovold is good enough

r4. storm (surfin the bird)
i win game 1 with a nice hazoret's topdeck into manamorphose, song, pif.

game 2 he beats me on turn 1 with a pretty nice pif loop chain. my hand was slow (turn 3)

he beats me on t1 again w/ land 3x dark ritual ad nauseam. not lucky vs ANT! i had a turn 2 kill ready.

r5. oath of nissa? looks like bg rock

ruby w/ mox petal
draw reforge and win

g2 he has t0 llotv, i waited for a reforge but never got one

g3 turn 1 ruby. turn 2 hazorets into 8 goblins. he scooped. my next crd was a reforge (miracle) which unchallenged would win the game (i peeked after)
9ga


overall. 2-3
lost to ant with two turn 1 kills (still won a game)
lost to izzet staticaster, then double fow + drs.
lost to fow + mindbreak trap. game 1 whiffed hazorets into 4 lands.

beat jund and nicfit, as combo should. overall still happy with deck.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/689113#paper

[cheerios]

Would pyromancer's ascencion see play in this deck?

[mistercakes]

Had it in the first draft. I think it's not needed. It can certainly be explored again but I'm not willing to invest time in that one.

[mistercakes]

Will update in a few days when we got some more data. Vieko and I have been running some leagues with the deck and the control matchups are pretty good but combo decks still need to be accounted for, especially in this meta. Will try out chalice as mentioned earlier in the thread.

Will try to get vieko's matchups so there can be a summary.

[zwdrew]

I've been following this thread with great interest and finally got around to putting the deck together and doing some goldfishing. What struck me in my (admittedly brief) testing is how often I was able to generate very large amounts of excess mana. This led me to consider Banefire as a possible win condition, perhaps as an alternative to Grapeshot. You can Burning Wish for it, it is uncounterable, and based on my initial testing, it is easier to generate the mana needed for a lethal Banefire than it is to cast the 19 spells needed for a lethal Grapeshot. Anyhow, I would love to hear other thoughts or opinions. Is this a card that anyone else has tested or considered?

[mistercakes]

It could be okay if you have to play around a stifle, but I usually just grapeshot multiple times.

[mistercakes]

Testing running LED, 2 volcs, some fetches and 3 gifts ungiven.

Still no protection maindeck in this build, will update if it's any better than current builds with maindeck grids.

also testing a mono red version w/ bedlam reveler for a little more consistency/additional win condition + good late game topdeck.

[Mr. Safety]

I play a lot of gifts storm on modern, and splashing blue puts you right down that path. Gifts + PiF is definitely a combo, but I'm not sure its legacy material. Eventually you get to the point where you have Led and volcanics and it becomes a bad Ant. I like the mono red version because it can be explosive, which gives it merit.

What about playing some broken creatures you can land t1, like the old all-in-red decks? Deus of Calamity probably won't cut it anymore, but lotus petal and manamorphose help you cast sire of insanity, or even just an inferno titan.

EDIT: Overmaster makes the plan viable as well. Pif becomes an incredible backup plan, hopefully they burn interaction to deal with your t1 play, which leaves them open to pif/grapeshot.

[mistercakes]

i should flesh out my thoughts a bit more on this. the mono red version is pretty good, still definitely a tier 2 deck, albeit a very strong one.

the mono red list roughly has about 48 slots that are set in stone (44 if you choose rite of flame over desperate ritual)

the 48 would look like this

(34)
4 helm
4 ruby
4 desperate ritual/rite of flame
4 seething song
4 manamorphose
4 burning wish
4 lotus petal
4 simian spirit guide
2 past in flames
(14)
10 mountain
4 ancient tomb

from there the deck has some different configurations: (12 slots left...refer to these slots as business spells)

i like to run some number of act on impulse, hazoret's undying fury, reforge the wheel, empty the warrens.

3 act on impulse
3 hazoret's undying fury
3 reforge the wheel
3 empty the warrens

(this would be the most glass cannon version, although it can recover quite easily with the random topdecks of PiF, fury, AoI, reforge, or burning wish.)

we (vieko and I) have been testing it a lot. we've tried maindeck defense grids and they seem fine, although they take away from the "business spell count". this makes hazoret's worse if you are only running 8-9 business spells + 4 wish + 2 past in flames, but it is still viable.

----------------------------------------------------------

bedlam reveler is a nice fit for this deck if you don't want to run defense grids maindeck, it also makes hazoret's worse by whiffing (8cc). it's a great topdeck and is quite easy to cast.
example: turn 1 ruby/helm. turn 2 mountain, seething song. = reveler. obviously other lines can probably get there easily too, but just showing potential for him to hit. he also has prowess so if gone unchecked for a turn (he dodges pretty much all the removal right now except swords/dismember).

the business spells that i would run if i choose to run this guy are:

4 bedlam reveler
4 act on impulse
3 reforge the wheel
1 hazoret's undying fury

Another option here is to go for less explosive but have some interaction:

4 Bedlam Reveler
3 Act on Impulse
2 Grapeshot
2 Empty the Warrens
1x pif, grapeshot, etw, hazoret's etc

the last build i've been experimenting with is the modern-style gifts approach.

because casting a gifts can result in the end of the game considering the following:
1 helm/ruby = gifts + RR1
2 helm/ruby = gifts + RR

because of this it feels like the deck should be running lion's eye diamond. it allows for a turn 1 helm/ruby with a tomb followed by a turn 2 gifts + LED for a guaranteed win (if unopposed)

then i think the business spells should be

3 act on impulse
1 past in flames (3 total)
4 lion's eye diamond
1 hazoret's undying fury
3 gifts ungiven

there could be some variation on this. could be wrong as hazoret's does whiff from time to time, but there's a good chance to win the game if a gifts hits. Also trying 2/2 with AoI /hazoret's here.

Led isn't really a business spell but it enables this combo in addition to making act on Impulse and burning wish more effective. It can also double up as a ramp spell with past in flames. Pretty similar functionality in other decks. I do like that it can be used a gifts target if you're holding the past in flames or there is one already in your graveyard as the 4th ramp spell.

I may change one desperate ritual to a pyretic ritual or even go 2/2 for gifts targets.

anyway! those are updates from my side. maybe vieko can post his notes at some point because i know he's more adamant about using empty the warrens than i am.

Edit, was thinking a but more and there's no reason to not try a hybrid of these two ideas.

Business spells :

2 Act on Impulse
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Gifts Ungiven
4 Bedlam Reveler

And the lands in these gifts builds have been
5 fetches, 2 Volcanic, 3 Mountain, 4 Ancient Tomb

Some gifts combos. Must have at least one of each in library upon casting


2 rocks. Gifts + R + manamorphose in grave
pyretic, song, pif, desperate

1 rock. Gifts + RR + manamorphose in grave
Song, LED, pif, desperate

Empty grave
2 rocks. Gifts + RR
Manamorphose, song, pif, desperate

Empty grave
1 rock. Gifts + RR1
Manamorphose, song, pif, desperate

Past in Flames in hand
2 rocks. Gifts + R
pyretic, manamorphose, desperate, song

Past in Flames in hand
1 rock. Gifts + R
song, manamorphose, desperate, pyretic

Past in Flames in graveyard
2 rocks. Gifts + R
pyretic, manamorphose, desperate, song

Past in Flames in graveyard
1 rock. Gifts + R1
pyretic, manamorphose, desperate, song

[vieko]

Running late for a meeting so very quickly:


Scab-Clan Berserker is a beast vs Storm (our hardest matchup IMO)
Reanimator is difficult but absolutely not impossible. A number of grave hate helps but overall: killing them faster seems to be the best course of action
I go back and forth on Helms... I'm favouring the faster builds with Tendrils kill (6 fetches and 2 badlands) so, helm seems redundant sometimes... Ruby does the trick




Will post more later!

[mistercakes]

Running late for a meeting so very quickly:


Scab-Clan Berserker is a beast vs Storm (our hardest matchup IMO)
Reanimator is difficult but absolutely not impossible. A number of grave hate helps but overall: killing them faster seems to be the best course of action
I go back and forth on Helms... I'm favouring the faster builds with Tendrils kill (6 fetches and 2 badlands) so, helm seems redundant sometimes... Ruby does the trick




Will post more later!

glad he worked out. i'm always trying to play it too safe by running 8 helm/ruby. it's probably not optimal but i can't stand not drawing them. looking forward to posts. i think you've got more games with the deck than me!

[Mr. Safety]

Is Chrome Mox worth any slots? It takes a card out of your hand for storm count but it also only helps you, where Helm aids your opponents.

EDIT: Gitaxian Probe?

[mistercakes]

i know vieko has tested probe a lot. he goes back and forth on it and it can be quite strong. right now the deck is a balancing act. i only tried mox as a 2 of and a 1 of and i thought it was fine, but it's more likely to take the place of something like simian spirit guide instead of another card slot.

the trick here is finding a good compromise for hazoret's. i would say right now you only hit a big card 50% of the time. that's with about 12 dedicated hits. this could be past in flames, burning wish, reforge the soul etc.

if the deck wants to be more interactive and load up on some bigger cards so that it can hit more often, it will need to play some other cards to slow the game down. the biggest enablers for that are chalice, tangle wire, and blood moon.

the deck is capable of winning with chaining reforge the souls and past in flames, but still requires usually a medallion or a helm.

right now what i've been testing is some variations using gifts ungiven. the ability to guarantee a win if it hits and you have medallion + RR1 or 2 medallions + RR is very interesting for me.

it also might allow for some kind of unburial rites sb, although i'm a little hesitant with all the graveyard hate going around.

i might also return to a list with chandra, torch of defiance. having the abiility to play this card on turn 1 can be absurd, and if it flips with hazoret's you have the option of seeing another card + 2 damage or adding RR to chain some more spells if needed. it also has a maindeck 4 dmg to creature so this can slow the game down as well. the ultimate in this deck should also ensure an immediate kill, although it's a lot less important, but maybe worth mentioning.

[Nocioni88]

Helm of obedience + leyiline of the void (usually gy hate of monored) in sb is viable imo. Both are an hit with hazoret, and helm is a kill with opponent's rip.


Inviato dal mio iPhone utilizzando Tapatalk

[rufus]

Helm of obedience + leyiline of the void (usually gy hate of monored) in sb is viable imo. Both are an hit with hazoret, and helm is a kill with opponent's rip.
...

I've wondered whether you can cut the land count and run Goblin Charbelcher (which combines with a ritual off Hazoret).

[mistercakes]

We tried both in earlier versions, belcher is better than the leyline plan. Right now we've been using scab Clan eidolon guy and defense grids. The deck is very capable of winning thorough lots of grave hate, even through leyline of the void.

[Mr. Safety]

i know vieko has tested probe a lot. he goes back and forth on it and it can be quite strong. right now the deck is a balancing act. i only tried mox as a 2 of and a 1 of and i thought it was fine, but it's more likely to take the place of something like simian spirit guide instead of another card slot.

the trick here is finding a good compromise for hazoret's. i would say right now you only hit a big card 50% of the time. that's with about 12 dedicated hits. this could be past in flames, burning wish, reforge the soul etc.

if the deck wants to be more interactive and load up on some bigger cards so that it can hit more often, it will need to play some other cards to slow the game down. the biggest enablers for that are chalice, tangle wire, and blood moon.

the deck is capable of winning with chaining reforge the souls and past in flames, but still requires usually a medallion or a helm.

right now what i've been testing is some variations using gifts ungiven. the ability to guarantee a win if it hits and you have medallion + RR1 or 2 medallions + RR is very interesting for me.

it also might allow for some kind of unburial rites sb, although i'm a little hesitant with all the graveyard hate going around.

i might also return to a list with chandra, torch of defiance. having the abiility to play this card on turn 1 can be absurd, and if it flips with hazoret's you have the option of seeing another card + 2 damage or adding RR to chain some more spells if needed. it also has a maindeck 4 dmg to creature so this can slow the game down as well. the ultimate in this deck should also ensure an immediate kill, although it's a lot less important, but maybe worth mentioning.

You've sucked me into this deck, lol. Your work that you've put into this is admirable.

I think if Gifts is that good then it becomes a natural substitute over Reforge the Soul. It costs 1 less (or the same with a Medallion, not counting miracle cost.) Ponder/Brainstorm seem like they just have to be added, but maybe that's incorrect. With Gifts being essentially a 'tutor 4 cards' engine maybe its ok to be the only blue card in the deck. I'm curious to test it out, I have Magic Workstation and I can proxy it out and test it against a gauntlet (I use the DtB forum here for those decks, along with several other tier 2's.)

4x Ruby Medallion
4x Manamorphose
4x Seething Song
4x Desperate Ritual/rite of flame
4x Lotus Petal
4x Burning Wish
4x Simian Spirit Guide
2x Past in Flames
3x Hazoret's Undying Fury
4x Gifts Ungiven
4x Ponder
3x Gitaxian Probe
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Polluted Delta
2x Volcanic Island
1x Island
1x Mountain
4x Ancient Tomb

Sideboard
1x Goblin War Strike
1x Grapeshot
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Past in Flames
1x Hazoret's Undying Fury
1x Diminishing Returns
1x Act on Impulse
2x Defense Grid
2x Cave In
1x By Force
3x Pyroblast

[mistercakes]

My current list im messing around with is


https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/689113#paper

I'm just screwing around with the gifts ungiven. (see my previous post earlier this week.)

It will likely end up either 2 Act on Impulse or 1 Act on Impulse + 1 led. Or something with an empty the Warrens.

I need to test more. It's also possible I'll just run another Helm and 1 of those other cards just mentioned. Chandra feels like a good fit. It's easy to cast on turn 2 and even if you brick hard on hazoret's, it's still not too bad if you hit a Chandra.

LED's work well with past in flames as well, so if you cut the LED's then the deck can also go back to 2 Past in Flames. Gifts version wants 3 Past in Flames so it can more easily kill on the spot. (keep in mind with gifts you likely want to run 2 pyretic ritual and 2 desperate instead of 4 desperate.

[mistercakes]

You've sucked me into this deck, lol. Your work that you've put into this is admirable.

I think if Gifts is that good then it becomes a natural substitute over Reforge the Soul. It costs 1 less (or the same with a Medallion, not counting miracle cost.) Ponder/Brainstorm seem like they just have to be added, but maybe that's incorrect. With Gifts being essentially a 'tutor 4 cards' engine maybe its ok to be the only blue card in the deck. I'm curious to test it out, I have Magic Workstation and I can proxy it out and test it against a gauntlet (I use the DtB forum here for those decks, along with several other tier 2's.)

4x Ruby Medallion
4x Manamorphose
4x Seething Song
4x Desperate Ritual/rite of flame
4x Lotus Petal
4x Burning Wish
4x Simian Spirit Guide
2x Past in Flames
3x Hazoret's Undying Fury
4x Gifts Ungiven
4x Ponder
3x Gitaxian Probe
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Polluted Delta
2x Volcanic Island
1x Island
1x Mountain
4x Ancient Tomb

Sideboard
1x Goblin War Strike
1x Grapeshot
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Past in Flames
1x Hazoret's Undying Fury
1x Diminishing Returns
1x Act on Impulse
2x Defense Grid
2x Cave In
1x By Force
3x Pyroblast

i thought about running ponder in this list too. definitely something that would make the deck more consistent. you could consider cutting 1 fury and 1 burning wish for 2 of something else. also the probes are average in a deck like this. you'll also want minimum 2/2 split with desperate ritual pyretic if you plan on running gifts. last thing to note is that the gifts combo works only if you have a reduction artifact in play. (i haven't figured out how much mana you need to start off with if you have none...but i imagine around 12-15 mana). consider running a helm or two over the probes. don't underestimate reforge the wheel. it's really dumb and it eventually overwhelms most blue decks.

anyway, i don't want to be too dismissive! good luck w/ the list and let us know how it goes.

[mistercakes]

So I just had a dismal league experience. I'm pretty sure that 14 lands while seems optimal for hazoret's is just not consistent enough for interactive games.

I think 15-16 lands is probably a safer bet, especially with the Chandra build which has the ability to go midrange a bit.

It also makes more sense to run rite of flame as its generally better than desperate unless if you draw multiple desperate with a ruby/Helm out.

I just likes desperate as it is better with a rock out, but there is definitely more variance regarding the initial hand when low on red mana sources. (initial red)

I know vieko is testing out some other builds working more around LED and sticking to mono red. So we will see how that plays out.

[Mr. Safety]

i thought about running ponder in this list too. definitely something that would make the deck more consistent. you could consider cutting 1 fury and 1 burning wish for 2 of something else. also the probes are average in a deck like this. you'll also want minimum 2/2 split with desperate ritual pyretic if you plan on running gifts. last thing to note is that the gifts combo works only if you have a reduction artifact in play. (i haven't figured out how much mana you need to start off with if you have none...but i imagine around 12-15 mana). consider running a helm or two over the probes. don't underestimate reforge the wheel. it's really dumb and it eventually overwhelms most blue decks.

anyway, i don't want to be too dismissive! good luck w/ the list and let us know how it goes.

Without protection I think probe is more important, for planning turns. I've been goofing around with mono-red storm for years because I didn't have cash for duals/etc. The game changer is Fury (Mind's Desire for 4.) I've tried u-r storm with shocklands, even gone so far as to play Goblin Bushwhacker/EtW as my win-cons. I've tried Young Pyromancer as a secondary 'storm' engine that helps get value even if I fizzle. The power level is there, the speed is there, the consistency is simply *not* there. Fury really is a game changer, honestly, because it makes it so you have a higher chance of getting a payoff card in your opener. Reforge and EtW were the only payoff cards (PiF is only great if you have a Grapeshot/EtW already in hand.) Probe was a free way to just draw more cards, just like Manamorphose is a way to essentially just draw extra cards while adding storm.

From memory, this is what I was last playing about a year ago for a budget mono-red storm deck:

4x Lotus Petal
4x Rite of Flame
4x Desperate Ritual
4x Rite of Flame
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Manamorphose
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Overmaster
4x Burning Wish
3x Empty the Warrens
4x Reforge the Soul
2x Past in Flames
3x Arid Mesa
3x Bloodstained Mire
8x Mountain
1x Dwarven Ruins

Sideboard
1x Past in Flames
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Grapeshot
1x Burst of Speed (for some reason I never discovered Goblin War Strike)
4x Pyroblast
3x Tormod's Crypt
4x Lightning Bolt

The emphasis was to just mulligan into a fast EtW/Reforge the Soul and hope it gets there. It was unequivocally an EtW deck almost exclusively. Ruby Medallion just wasn't on my radar because I wanted pure speed (and I had no problem getting to 4-5 mana for a payoff card.) With Fury (and to a lesser extent Act on Impulse) I think the Medallion more than makes up for its two mana cost, probably generating in the ballpark of 3-5 extra mana after its paid for. Playing Gifts storm in modern really opened my eyes to the potential of a cost reducer fueling broken storm chains. If there was even *one* more ritual in modern like Pyretic/Desperate the deck would be a consistent turn 3 deck, no doubt.

[mistercakes]

So it's entirely possible that a different thread could be opened for a legacy UR gifts deck, with some better mana and fixing, cantrips etc.

I think for the mono red thread we should stick to seeing what the most optimal builds are. The deck is still in its infancy, and its highly suspect to change quite a bit.

If you start a new thread for UR gifts, I'd be happy to help contribute.

[Mr. Safety]

So it's entirely possible that a different thread could be opened for a legacy UR gifts deck, with some better mana and fixing, cantrips etc.

I think for the mono red thread we should stick to seeing what the most optimal builds are. The deck is still in its infancy, and its highly suspect to change quite a bit.

If you start a new thread for UR gifts, I'd be happy to help contribute.

Sure, but I think Fury is what makes the deck viable at all. I think mono-red would be, by nature, much more stable. I think once you start splashing colors it inevitably leads you to TES/ANT, which are established decks. Gifts is a known quantity, if there was a competitive Gifts storm deck for Legacy I think it would already have been done (I could be wrong, but I've never heard of it.) I'd rather try and break open Fury, and have a red-based deck that naturally preys on a primarily blue format.

[mistercakes]

The lists I've been running can go through up to 5 counterspells, but you do need to hit a few land drops. What's great is when you have a Ruby out then almost all non mana sources / rituals are threats. That's the key to my approach.

Unfortunately it's hard to maintain consistency with the lands. I suppose the spirit guides could be reduced in favor of some lands. This would make the deck likely a 1/2 turn to 1 turn slower, but the payoff is that you would do better Vs the force of will decks, as you can recover faster.

Edit: I regularly talk to vieko on slack, mostly about this deck these days. If you're interested just pm me with your email and I'll add you.

[Mr. Safety]

Cool, thanks.

Oh I'm sold 100% on Ruby Medallion, no doubt. It's what makes the payoff/threats in the deck so much better. The power level with PiF, RtS, and HUF is enough on its own to include 4.

I don't think the Simians can be cut, for the simple reason that if the mana runs out to resolve a Reforge we need free mana to continue the chain. If we haven't played a land that can help, but having 8 other free mana sources (SSG/Petal) seems critical to me. I think the place to cut for lands is Helm of Awakening.

EDIT: Whatever happened to Wildfire? I think having some sort of haymaker disruption seems really strong. Blood Moon/Chalice have been mentioned but Wildfire seems as good, if not better. Doing a search for uncounterable red spells ATM...I messed around with Obliterate at one point in time

[mistercakes]

i never got to test wildfire. laziness i suppose.

the current list i'm trying has cut the helms in exchange for chandras and squeezing in some extra lands. hazoret's still has ~12-15 hits including chandra. i do agree about the spirit guide working with reforge, however it's just not as explosive without 8 reduction. you would need to have the ruby already in play when you cast reforge in order for spirit guide to really do anything great.

i think my recommendation for at least this iteration of the deck is that it should aim for a turn 3-4 win with the ability to win on turn 1 with some huge luck. this will give you some opportunities to get FoW'd, discarded, thalia etc.

it's also pretty easy to take this list and just find 1 slot for the 4th spirit guide. probably an act on impulse, past in flames, or 1 desperate ritual. totally up to you. spirit guide is also much better for playing turn 1 berserker vs storm/reanimator or whatever deck you think it would prey upon.

i usually use goldfish links for the deck, but i'll post here to keep a mental note as that link's list keeps changing daily.


12 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb

1 Act on Impulse
4 Burning Wish
3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Desperate Ritual
4 Hazoret's Undying Fury
4 Lotus Petal
4 Manamorphose

3 Past in Flames
4 Reforge the Soul
4 Rite of Flame
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Seething Song
3 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Defense Grid
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
2 Magma Jet
1 Past in Flames
1 Rending Volley
4 Scab-Clan Berserker
1 Tendrils of Agony


the haymaker cards that would support this list well with chandra would be wildfire and jokulhaups. both are pretty easy to cast with chandra's RR ability.

[mistercakes]

Some good updates with the deck. Will let vieko update.

[mistercakes]

I actually really like this list. Was there any consideration something like Commune with Lava? or is that too mana intensive? I haven't tried it in legacy, but it's done well enough in modern.

Just an update here. We've tested this card and it's quite good. It does push the deck to play, LED, which is never a bad thing.

Hazoret's is now more likely a 1-2 of, and most of the lists we've been testing are just running 4 medallions, relying on led, seething song and rite of flame. The Medallion is still a huge edge, but the deck can win more consistently when it doesn't draw one than in prior versions just running desperate ritual, song and manamorphose.

Still need to do more testing but am quite happy with list right now.

[vieko]

Just an update here. We've tested this card and it's quite good. It does push the deck to play, LED, which is never a bad thing.

Hazoret's is now more likely a 1-2 of, and most of the lists we've been testing are just running 4 medallions, relying on led, seething song and rite of flame. The Medallion is still a huge edge, but the deck can win more consistently when it doesn't draw one than in prior versions just running desperate ritual, song and manamorphose.

Still need to do more testing but am quite happy with list right now.

I'm very happy with the list. Consistently getting 3-2s with a handful of 4-1s and ALMOST 5-0 twice. The learning curve is similar to TES / ANT. I would say we are about a week away from landing 5-0s on MTGO and putting down some primers for everyone :)

[MGB]

I'm very happy with the list. Consistently getting 3-2s with a handful of 4-1s and ALMOST 5-0 twice. The learning curve is similar to TES / ANT. I would say we are about a week away from landing 5-0s on MTGO and putting down some primers for everyone :)

I played against you twice on MTGO, vieko. I'm "Pathy" on MTGO.

I think I beat you once with Trinispheres/Chalices, and then the next match you broke through the lock with anti-hate in G3.

I have to say the deck seems pretty fast and resilient. Do you think it's better than ANT?

[vieko]

I played against you twice on MTGO, vieko. I'm "Pathy" on MTGO.

I think I beat you once with Trinispheres/Chalices, and then the next match you broke through the lock with anti-hate in G3.

I have to say the deck seems pretty fast and resilient. Do you think it's better than ANT?

YOU DID INDEED! It is very resilient, with higher redundancy than TES / ANT, bit slower than TES, bit faster than ANT, with some angles / tricks the other storm decks don't have access to... I believe this could be (one day) on par with other Storm variants.

To our matchup: tax effects are difficult to deal with but not impossible. Storm is by far the hardest matchup to navigate against followed by a fast Reanimator (Depths / BR). Leovold... Leovold... can be an issue sometimes but nothing a bazzilion Goblins won't absolutely wreck. Ethersworn Canonist is the creature I like seen the least (we've got answers for you lady). Control decks are easier to handle with this list than with other Storm variants if only because we often have more aggression than they have counters. For example, I won against an opponent holding double Flusterstorm, Pierce, Force, double Stifle (peeked with Probe). In a different occasion, won after Surgical, Snapcaster into Surgical, Force, Daze, Daze... Most wins come in the form of Tendrils or Goblin War Strike.

Most of my loses have been against myself :) I've made some top-shelf / laughable mistakes seeeeeveral times! Mistercakes and I have tweaked this list SO much, it's been an ever changing learning curve... probably the reason I'm so hooked on this monster right now.

Anyways, looking forward to playing against you again soon "Pathy"!

EDITED: Speaking of lists, here's my latest (mistercakes is working on a slightly different approach):


UNDYING STORM 3.1

14 LAND
10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb

10 RITUAL
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
2 Desperate Ritual

8 MANA
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

8 EXILE / PLAY
3 Commune with Lava
3 Act on Impulse
1 Mizzix's Mastery
1 Hazoret's Undying Fury

4 PEEK / DRAW
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 MANA / DRAW
4 Manamorphose

4 TUTOR
4 Burning Wish

4 REDUCTION
4 Ruby Medallion

1 DISRUPT / DRAW
1 Reforge the Soul

1 FLASHBACK
1 Past in Flames

1 STORM
1 Empty the Warrens

1 COPY
1 Reverberate


SIDEBOARD
2 Abrade
2 Defense Grid
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Scab-Clan Berserker
1 By Force
1 Pyroclasm
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
1 Grapeshot

[Mr. Safety]

How critical is LED? I have all of the cards, or can get them, except for LED. Does it just make the deck a turn slower without it?

Call me crazy, but is Brain Freeze worth testing? The deck would naturally have to lean on Past in Flames much more, but dumping 15-18 cards into your graveyard seems like it would almost assuredly give you enough material to win with PiF.

EDIT: What role does Reverberate play in the deck? Are you simply copying a payoff spell like HUF/Act on Impulse?

[mistercakes]

hiya.

i think with vieko's commune version you do need LED's. i haven't really gotten too much into that version, other than goldfishing it at home.

i've been going in a slightly different direction with the deck. i'll answer your questions then post my latest version.

"How critical is LED? I have all of the cards, or can get them, except for LED. Does it just make the deck a turn slower without it?

Call me crazy, but is Brain Freeze worth testing? The deck would naturally have to lean on Past in Flames much more, but dumping 15-18 cards into your graveyard seems like it would almost assuredly give you enough material to win with PiF.

EDIT: What role does Reverberate play in the deck? Are you simply copying a payoff spell like HUF/Act on Impulse?"

LED is not critical in every version, but in a AoI/Commune version, it should be in there. the deck is not necessarily a turn slower. i'd say both versions are turn 2-3 decks that can win on turn 1.

I'm not sure brain freeze is really necessary, it seems like it's doing mostly what gifts ungiven would do. generally the deck can feed itself enough.

Reverberate is a 1 of, which can also be that 1RR guy that also forks a spell. he's in there just as a random goodstuff card that can copy a powerful spell, copy countermagic etc. it's by no means necessary and i've only been testing it, but i've never drawn it yet.

here's my latest list:


//lands
12 mountain
4 ancient tomb

//ramp
4 lotus petal
4 simian spirit guide
4 rite of flame
4 seething song
4 manamorphose
4 ruby medallion

//big spells
4 reforge the soul
3 hazoret's undying fury
4 burning wish
4 chandra, torch of defiance
3 past in flames

//flex spots
2 magma jet

//sideboard
3 tormod's crypt
3 defense grid
3 scab-clan berserker
1 tendrils of agony
1 grapeshot
1 cave-in
1 by force
1 empty the warrens
1 past in flames


sideboard is pretty flexible. berserker is very good vs storm, and decent vs cantrip decks. grids are great. could go to 4 on either one, especially if you don't like tormod's crypt. crypt is in there for ANT and obviously reanimator. the others are wish targets. with this list don't be afraid to side out a reforge and/or hazoret's as they become pretty useful wish targets. if i had room for another slot i'd probably consider running 1 hazoret's in the sb (or 1 wheel, but i like the miracle ability so i'd prefer to keep 4).

i would also consider fiery confluence in the main/sideboard depending on metagame. i might have to drop 1 crypt for one just b/c it's great to kill goblins/elves/stompy decks pretty easily. if your local metagame doesn't play that much storm, you can probably even consider blood moon for those 3 slots. it's another must counter for many decks and it can cripple them.

the major draw back of this version is that it is a little weak to leovold. chandra can kill it, which is nice, but he turns off manamorphose draw and reforge, which is quite powerful in this list. the other list more or less ignores leovold b/c of all the exile style "draw" effects. you can also consider sb rending volley if there's a lot of leovold decks.

i like this version b/c it has 6 maindeck outs to creatures and chandra is a pretty strong threat on her own. it's pretty easy to turn 1 her in this deck. she also gets you to 5/6 mana very easily with her +1: RR ability. if you don't like magma jet then the flex spots are probably:

a maindeck grapeshot, a maindeck empty the warrens, desperate ritual, fiery confluence.


if you have other questions let me know.

[Mr. Safety]

Thanks for that. I like Magma Jet over Reverberate for sure. This is where I ended up for a rough list:

4x Ruby Medallion
4x Rite of Flame
4x Seething Song
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Lotus Petal
4x Manamorphose
4x Burning Wish
4x Gitaxian Probe
1x Desperate Ritual
4x Reforge the Soul
1x Past in Flames
3x Empty the Warrens
2x Hazoret’s Undying Fury
3x Act on Impulse
4x Ancient Tomb
10 Mountain

Sideboard
1x Past in Flames
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Goblin War Strike
1x Grapeshot
1x By Force
1x Pyroclasm
1x Hazoret's Undying Fury
1x Tendrils of Agony
4x Pyroblast
3x Lightning Bolt

This is where I will start testing. Again, very strong emphasis on EtW. I waffle back and forth on multiple copies of Past in Flames maindeck (its so much better when drawn instead of tutored!) I really think PiF is the resiliency plan, with the primary plan of just blasting a big Warrens, maybe BW-ing into War Strike or Grapeshot to finish off. Another great point of resiliency is that Tendrils for 4-5 can gain us multiple turns to rebuild. I would definitely play that angle against decks where I know I will need to slog through multiple angles of interaction. Against decks that are goldfishing (storm, sneak and show, elves, etc.) I think a turn 1-2 big warrens is really the only thing that will fight through that (barring a nut draw into Tendrils ftw.)

I really need to just settle into a list and play 15-20 games with it so I can get beyond theory-crafting.

[mistercakes]

I'd highly recommend at least 15 lands. The 4 probes don't really make up for the 2 lands. Maybe cut 1 AoI.

[Mr. Safety]

I'd highly recommend at least 15 lands. The 4 probes don't really make up for the 2 lands. Maybe cut 1 AoI.

Easy-peasy, thanks for the suggestion. Will drop 1 AoI for an 11th Mountain.

[mistercakes]

I'll prob run my list tonight at my local. I also brought elves and miracles in case I audible.

Will try to take some notes and provide a decent report.

[Mr. Safety]

Nice! I ordered all of the missing cards I needed to flesh this out in paper. I have it loaded on Magic Workstation as well, which is easier but less reliable for actual data.

[vieko]

Nice! I ordered all of the missing cards I needed to flesh this out in paper. I have it loaded on Magic Workstation as well, which is easier but less reliable for actual data.

I've been down the path you are about to embark on before so, here's a few notes to keep in mind:


Two Hazorets means double the chances of whiffing with it: Haz is a fantastic card to find early and force your opponent to counter. If they don't counter it, it tends to whiff early in the game (lands) so be ready for the possibility and plan accordingly (you'll be tapped out for a turn). It truly shines after your opponent has ran out of answers (turn 4-5), you've got a solid manabase in play and you happen to top it.
LED is almost a must-have when running 3-4 Act on Impulse. It makes AoI exponentially better. If you don't have access to LEDs, my suggesting would be to drop the AoI to a max of 2 copies and bump up the number of Past in Flames to 3.
Triple Empty is awesome for most matches BUT Storm... just be aware of this... if you have a line to early Goblin pressure: take it and hope for that Wish into Goblin War Strike.
I would swap Lightning Bolt for Rending Volley or Abrade as either deals with: Cannonist, Leovold, Teeg, DRS, Thalia, Scooze... Abrade also handles: 3Balls, Spheres, Cages, etc. I like Abrade best because it gives me instant solutions postboard and leaves room for wishable answers (By Force / Pyroclasm / Cave-In)
If there's Storm in your meta: Scab-Clan Berserker is (so far) the best answer to them. Cannot stress enough how good this girl is!



Good luck.

[Mr. Safety]

Thanks for the response! I will definitely trade into/buy the scab clans. I get the uncounterable clause of Rending Volley, and I have them so that seems fine. Bolt going to the dome isn't nothing either however, especially if you have a big PiF chain going. The list of creatures you mentioned are all also dealt with by Bolt (with the possible exception of Scooze if its big enough.) Abrade does two things, but both of them inefficiently. I'll have to do testing, I'm not sold yet (sorry!) I'll definitely drop the AoI count.

[mistercakes]

Went 2-2 tonight. Beat ANT and DNT. lost to bant with kotr and dark depths, and 4 color control.

Full report tomorrow.

[procobrito]

Mengucci posted a video today playing against mono red storm, it was you?

Enviado de meu SM-G900MD usando Tapatalk

[mistercakes]

Just watched it. That was me. It's an older version of the deck. Whiffing on hazoret's happens. Perhaps in that game 3 I should have baited with the hazoret's and then cast bringing wish for either empty or Reforge.

Hope it was entertaining, and sorry for playing slow. Newborn in the house so it's likely I was not just playing magic during the match.

[mistercakes]

here's the list i played last night to a 2-2.

//lands
12 mountain
4 ancient tomb

//ramp
4 lotus petal
4 simian spirit guide
4 rite of flame
4 seething song
4 manamorphose
4 ruby medallion

//big spells
4 reforge the soul
3 hazoret's undying fury
4 burning wish
4 chandra, torch of defiance
3 past in flames

//flex spots
1 magma jet
1 fiery confluence

//sideboard
2 tormod's crypt
3 defense grid
3 scab-clan berserker
2 rending volley
1 tendrils of agony
1 grapeshot
1 by force
1 empty the warrens
1 past in flames


Round 1: Daniel with ANT:

Daniel and I talk a bunch on facebook, so he's pretty familiar with the concept of the deck...but not so much specific numbers and he has no idea about the current sb. I won the dice roll and my opening hand was pretty sketchy, but knowing he is on ANT and knowing he knew what I was playing I kept.

Game 1
SSG, LP, RoF, Seething Song, PiF, Reforge the Soul, Hazoret's. I played out all the cards I could and cast reforge. I didn't get an amazing hand but had a turn 2 ruby followed by a turn 3 kill. Unfortunately for me he was able to kill me on his second turn. At least my reforge revealed his opening hand of Dark Ritual,2 land, LED, infernal tutor and a Past in Flames.
Game 2
I cut 2 Chandra, 1 Reforge, 1 Magme Jet, 1 Confluence for 3 Berserker and 2 Crypt.
Starting hand was: 2 SSG, Hazoret's, Ruby, 2 mtn. (top card was berserker from Mulligan scry)
I start with a turn 1 ruby. He plays Underground Sea, Duress. Then a petal and another duress. (he was on starting 6). I draw a Scab-Clan Berseker and he can't recover.
Game 3
Now he knows some of my SB plan. Opening hand is: Ruby , Mtn, LP, BW, PiF, RoF, SSG.
He plays a probe, then ponder and shuffles. I draw Berserker. Later he told me that he shuffled away his bounce spell because he saw that the coast was clear and wanted to find a faster combo hand.

Round 2: Johannes with Bant

This is the first time I've met Johannes, and he seemed to be a nice guy. I saw he was playing a bunch of countermagic from the previous round.
I won the die roll and started with a hand of:
Song, Tomb, RoF, Ruby, Hazoret's, 2 Mountain.

I play turn 1 ruby and there's no counter. He plays a turn 1 Misty and passes the turn. i played my 2nd land and a petal and passed the turn. (i always like playing petal in case i hit my miracle). He brainstormed and then got a tundra.

On my turn 3 I play the Tomb following by the rest of the hand and went for it. He didn't have the force (later he showed me a handful of daze and stifle), but unfortunately for me Hazoret's completely whiffed and revealed Petal, SSG, land, land.

He played KotR on turn 3, and on turn 4 he Tutored up the dark depths to kill me.

Game 2:
I mulliganned a reasonable hand but with only 1 land and ruby, but also a rending volley. My 6 is much worse. I didn't really take notes on this one, but he had a turn 1 noble, turn 2 kotr, turn 3 stage and tutor up dark depths. he also had 2 force of will, 2 daze, 1 flusterstorm and a stifle.

Round 3: Jan with DNT

I also speak w/ Jan regularly and he's a nice guy. He's always playing DNT, pox, or aggro loam. I knew he was on DNT because he is preparing for Prague. (I'm not going b/c I just had a baby and my wife would kill me!....life's priorities!)

I didn't take notes but I'll try to remember what happened here:

Game 1
I had a turn 1 ruby. I know I had manamorphose and a hazoret's but I needed another mana source. He started with Vial, then port, then he played recruiter on turn 3 to vial in a thalia. (canceling out my ruby). I unfortunately never drew another land until it was too late. Sometimes DNT does what it's supposed to do!

Game 2

I start with a turn 1 Ruby. Turn 2 I go for a Hazoret's which hits 4 non lands, including a Ruby, Seething Song, and Reforge The Soul and a Chandra. I won that turn.

Game 3
I have another turn 1 Ruby on the draw. I remember preemptively getting a Burning Wish for Canonist. I also drew a Rending Volley while we both durdled for a few turns and then killed his Thalia, and then killed him. I remember Chandra being pretty good here as well.

R4 Alex

I've met Alex a few times and another likable guy. He's always playing some kind of Control Brew. This time he's playing 4c control with lots of snapcasters, khologans, flusterstorm, fow, DRS etc.

Game 1
I start again with a turn 1 Ruby. (wee) He starts with a ponder. I play a tomb, cast seething song, Burning Wish (it resolves) and I go for 6 goblins. He played a strix, takes 5, plays a DRS, takes 4, then i draw my fiery confluence. I get excited b/c I initially think it can deal 1 damage to only his creatures (stupid german card..or stupid me!) When I play it, I realize what it actually does and choose to deal 6 to him, then attack. he goes down to 3 life, but can gain 2 from the DRS.

I think had I attacked first then wiped out his DRS and dealt 4 to him I would have been a lot better off. After that turn he killed both of my ruby medallions with khologan's command + snapcaster, played a fluster, FoW, and a Leovold. ouch!

Game 2
I start with a defense grid on turn 1. He FoW's. I play another Defense grid on t2. He FoW's. Then he Hymns me discarding ruby, pif. I play a land and Ruby medallion. I miracle a Reforge. This game goes back and forth a lot. He casts 3 FoW's, counterspell, and flusterstorm 3 times and Toxic Deluge for my goblins. He also played surgical extraction twice. Once on my Chandra and once on my ...I have no idea.

Then board position at the near end was the following

My Chandra (6 Loyalty) + Ruby + some lands + Petals. vs his DRS, Snapcaster, and Jace TMS with 3 Counters.

My hand is Chandra, and I draw a burning wish. He's tapped out too with all sources. If I can resolve Wish to get Past in Flames I win easily here.

I start my turn by +1 chandra and reveal nothing good. I cast Simian Spirit guide as a blocker to protect Chandra. Then I cast Burning Wish, he FoW #4. This is not so insanely lucky b/c I did wheel at least 2 or maybe 3 times at this point and he was cantripping like crazy to find more counters. (he had about 20 cards left in his deck, I had counted).

Then I played the next Chandra to see if I can hit the PiF naturally from the deck. I whiff and deal 2 to Jace, then I cast a Simian Spirit guide. It wasn't enough and I died.

In hindsight what I should have done was create a threat to his Jace. Chandra, deal 2 to his Jace, set it to 1. Then play the 2nd Chandra, he would likely FoW this to protect his Jace. Then I was free to cast Wish into PiF into a win.

I also chose not to board in the Berserker, which was maybe a mistake. I boarded in rending volleys and grids, which are great, but I could have also boarded in the 3 guys and taken out some of the more All in combo stuff. Hazoret's is still really good with berserker grid chandra etc.

We played a third game for fun without SB and I was able to overwhelm his countermagic and discard. That felt nice.

Fortunately in Berlin the players are good and it's always a good learning experience. Carsten Kotter, Alex and Daniel was there as well and we discussed the deck a little bit on the train ride back. Carsten is pretty innovative so I like to hear his opinions. He said that I should really consider Blood Moon in this version, and the ability to steal game 1's randomly is probably worth it. I don't really have a good argument to that especially now that I am running 4 Chandra. I feel in the other versions, especially the LED version, blood moon is too often a dead card.

with an update this deck has 4 blood moon, 4 chandra and then the rest is a combo deck. i still need to test it, but it feels like if not going for the other plans it could be a solid option.

This archetype could really go 3 ways.

Midrange with blood moon and chandra. it can still win with turn 1 hands if you're super lucky. (something like turn 1 hazoret's into wheel + seething song can easily get there). it can also end a game with t1 blood moon or even t1 chandra can steal a lot of games. it's also got some good topdecks with 3 reforge, hazoret's, chandra and past in flames.

LED combo. This version is trying to abuse as much as possible with exile cards temporarily so that they can be cast with LED or other rituals. It's by far the fastest version and is also likely the most fun to goldfish. Deck is not as resilient as midrange, but if you can hit your land drops Commune with Lava can easily keep blue decks under control. I feel like this deck is likely to win mostly on turn 3, but it can still win on turn 1 as well.

8 rock. 4 ruby and 4 helm of obedience. This version is trying to maximize the amount of spells that would be broken if they cost 1 or 2 less. It's also the most budget friendly version, but it is quite capable of turn 1 and likely has the most turn 2 kills since a turn 1 rock is very easy to accomplish. Consider this the turn 2 deck.

midrange = turn 3-5
LED = turn 3-4
8 rock = turn 2-3

the deck is still in its infancy but it is super fun to play. it's also nice to play a storm deck that doesn't run counterspells or discard and isn't a glass cannon like belcher, spanish inquisition, or oops all spells.

here's my latest version of the midrange. vieko is the expert on the LED version, and I feel like the 8 rock should be somebody else's baby if they're willing! they can start with some of the other builds in the thread.

4 Seething Song
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Rite of Flame
4 Burning Wish
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Blood Moon
4 Lotus Petal
3 Past in Flames
3 Reforge the Soul
4 Manamorphose
2 Hazoret's Undying Fury
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Ancient Tomb
12 Mountain

sb:

2 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
1 Past in Flames
1 Reforge the Soul
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 By Force
1 Hazoret's Undying Fury
2 Rending Volley
3 Scab-Clan Berserker
2 Tormod's Crypt


this is not a 100% set in stone list, and is still in testing phases. depending on the meta as well, empty the warrens maindeck over some of those numbers could be correct.

if stealing games w/ blood moon isn't your thing, i'd recommend this configuration for the midrange:

4 ancient tomb
12 mountain
4 lotus petal
4 rite of flame
4 burning wish
4 manamorphose
4 ruby medallion
4 seething song
4 simian spirit guide
3 empty the warrens
3 past in flames
3 chandra, torch of defiance
3 reforge the soul
3 hazoret's undying fury
1 reiterate

sb:
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
1 Past in Flames
1 Reforge the Soul
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 By Force
1 Hazoret's Undying Fury
2 Rending Volley
3 Scab-Clan Berserker
2 Tormod's Crypt


notice that reiterate can allow you to get infinite storm with a Ruby and a seething song. also copying a hazoret's seems reasonably unfair.

[Mr. Safety]

Just curious: how many games have you played out where you had the choice between EtW or Reforge the soul? It happened to me several times in testing (I also play 3 maindeck warrens) and I had to choose. I only had a storm count of maybe 3, with 5 mana floating (no Ruby) and I had to choose 8 goblins or Reforge and hope I don't brick. Both times it was turn 2, trying to force a window against DnT (their turn 2 would be Thalia, with a port already online to lock me out turns 3+.) I thought the warrens would help with speed, but instead it became too awkward. My thought is to have more mana spells (Desperate Ritual up to 4) to enable fast Warrens games and to trim down a bit on the ancillary cards (Hazoret's, Act on Impulse, both as singeltons maybe.) Currently I am just trimming an EtW for another DRitual.

How about Gamble, searching out PiF? Have you tried that?

EDIT: Chandra is looking sexier and sexier in this deck...does everything you want. Interaction, removal, mana, and an ultimate that kills opponents. I might have to buckle down and trade into a set.

[mistercakes]

so when i played it on tuesday i wasn't running any maindeck Empty. that decision never really came up for me!

i'd say treat it like TES. with TES you probably won't beat DNT with 8 goblins. just figure out the math if they get a turn 2 stoneforge, turn 3 batterskull.

depending on your metagame you can choose to play with chandra. i like it b/c it's good vs the midrange/tempo decks that normally prey on combo. being able to shoot down a creature is also a benefit, but ramping or getting a card each turn is great. it's not as backbreaking as jace TMS, but it's close. just remember, you can't play lands off of her exile ability. i'd say start with 1 or 2 chandra and you can definitely run some more mana/gambles and try to get there. gamble is certainly a lot better if you're tutoring up past in flames most of the time.

i honestly haven't tried gamble before, you could definitely replace the 3rd maindeck PiF with a gamble and see how it goes. it's definitely better with chandra if you're limited on mana and get flooded in one way or another.

hazoret's is definitely in it for the gambler in me. sometimes you whiff, but sometimes you win the game. i'd say it's about 50/50 if you have about 15 hits. even if i tap out for 5/6 mana and flip only a chandra, that's usually enough to off-set the lands not untapping for a turn.

if you're more into just having a faster combo deck, then check out the LED list. i'm sure vieko will update soon.


testing 2 gambles, and it seems pretty good. will continue testing them. (non blood moon version)

list i'm screwing around with looks like this:


4 burning wish
3 reforge the soul
3 hazoret's undying fury
3 chandra, torch of defiance
3 past in flames
2 empty the warrens
2 gamble
4 seething song
4 manamorphose
4 ruby medallion
4 rite of flame
4 simian spirit guide
4 lotus petal
12 mountain
4 ancient tomb

sb:
3 rending volley
3 scab-clan berserker
2 tormod's crypt
1 cave-in
1 by force
1 past in flames
1 empty the warrens
1 grapeshot
1 reforge the soul
1 tendrils of agony

[Mr. Safety]

Acceleration
4x Ruby Medallion
4x Rite of Flame
4x Seething Song
1x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Lotus Petal
4x Desperate Ritual

Draw/Storm Boosters
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Manamorphose
1x Act on Impulse

Engine
2x Past in Flames
2x Hazoret’s Undying Fury
4x Reforge the Soul

Threats
2x Empty the Warrens
4x Burning Wish

Lands
4x Ancient Tomb
12x Mountain

Sideboard
1x Past in Flames
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Grapeshot
1x Goblin War Strike
1x Pyroclasm
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x By Force
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Rending Volley
4x Pyroblast

Trying this out before I get too deep into testing Chandra or Gamble. I think the right way for me to approach it, Act on Impulse/Hazoret's are simply Reforge the Soul #5-6. They just aren't reliable enough to go all-in on. I like Gamble, it's like a Gifts for 1 instead of 4, which is ultra efficient when searching for PiF, but its only good if I already have a sizable amount of mana in my pool. I need to be prepared to pay 5 for PiF, after paying for Gamble, and I would still need at least R floating to continue the chain. So 7 mana...that's quite a bit when I haven't hit PiF yet.

Chandra would inevitably be x2-3, dropping AoI, a Hazoret's or Pif, or a Mountain/SSG. Ditto for Gamble if I work that in, but I don't think I can do both. Gitaxian Probe would also be a spot to incorporate interaction, as its the least productive of the spells in the deck (aside from information.)

Mostly I think I need to be more patient. I keep trying desperately to jam a t2 combo and this just isn't a turn 2 deck, it's definitely a turn 3 deck (on average.) Sometimes it will blast a big EtW t1-2 but that shouldn't be the goal. The goal should be an inevitable t3 Warrens/big Grapeshot.

[mistercakes]

i think it's a fine approach you're using, but keep in mind you might want 3 empty the warrens since you're so determined to ramp. it's also possible you want to leave 1 wheel in the sb so it's a viable target. other than that i'd say just test test test.

-Rob

[ReAnimator]

Has anyone tried out Overmaster in here? Cheap cantrip for digging and offers some protection for a Reforge or PIF vs decks that can counter you. Not sure what you cut for it, but it could be worth testing.

[mistercakes]

Yep we tried overmaster. It's good with Reforge, but that's about it.

[Mr. Safety]

i think it's a fine approach you're using, but keep in mind you might want 3 empty the warrens since you're so determined to ramp. it's also possible you want to leave 1 wheel in the sb so it's a viable target. other than that i'd say just test test test.

-Rob

Agreed

[bluenote17]

Hey everyone! First time using The Source. I was directed to "the forums" by an MTGOer earlier today, so here I am. Anyways, my decklist (a rough idea that I came up with one late evening) is all about rituals, eschewing the mana reducers that the fine fellow I played against earlier used. My meta is very light on counterspells, so I'm preying on that and praying I don't run into too many FoW while playtesting. The actual list is a mess, as is the sideboard, but I'd like to contribute to the Mono Red Storm forum any way I can. Anyways, here's my list. Constructive feedback is appreciated. Thanks!

Maindeck:
16 Mountain
4 Lotus Petal
4 Rite of Flame
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Manamorphose
4 Burning Wish
4 Seething Song
4 Reforge the Soul
3 Past in Flames
2 Grapeshot
3 Empty the Warrens

Sideboard:
1 Past in Flames
2 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Pyroclasm
1 Shattering Spree
1 Chain Lightning
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Molten Rain
1 Banefire
1 Goblin War Strike
3 Tormod's Crypt

[mistercakes]

Hiya, that was me today. Thanks for posting. I think we just need some more data from you. Mostly because if you're hoping to avoid fow decks, I'm not sure why I wouldn't just play Belcher. Also more than 50% of the meta is fow decks, but I suppose local metas are excluded.

To move the dialoge a little, what is your local meta?

[bluenote17]

My "meta" is really just a group of friends that play Legacy occasionally, and because we're all broke college students, the decks are budget versions of the real things. We've got a diehard Burn player, some janky ramp brew that functions similarly to 12-Post, Elves, and me. It feels like practically the textbook meta for Storm to take root. Regarding results— I can't tell you matchup percentages of anything, but I can give my impressions on the matchups I routinely face. Burn is a straight-up race that (if I have a good hand) I can win easily. The ramp deck usually gives me plenty of time to go off, but Elves puts pressure on the ground that can make winning with Empty difficult (when I'm on the draw, that is). I hope that helps.

[mistercakes]

Ah ok. Just seems like casual. Totally fine with whatever list you want then.

Try to experiment with the cards listed through the thread, even if you try 1 card at a time.

[hadhod]

hi at all.

I'm trying a quite different list from the original mistercakes' one. I try to use directly md a 3x of Defense Grid. I play in Lucca and the meta is heterogeneous: for this reason, i prefer have a little protection md and goes off with constant at t2.

this is the list that i'll test:


// 60 Mazzo
// 12
12 Mountain

// 11 Artifact
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ruby Medallion
3 Defense Grid

// 4 Creature
4 Simian Spirit Guide

// 8 Instant
4 Manamorphose
4 Seething Song

// 4 Land
4 Ancient Tomb

// 3 Planeswalker
3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance

// 18 Sorcery
4 Burning Wish
2 Empty the Warrens
3 Hazoret's Undying Fury
2 Past in Flames
3 Reforge the Soul
4 Rite of Flame


// 15 Sideboard
// 4 Creature
SB: 3 Scab-Clan Berserker
SB: 1 Faerie Macabre

// 2 Instant
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction

// 2 Planeswalker
SB: 2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance

// 7 Sorcery
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Reforge the Soul
SB: 1 Hazoret's Undying Fury
SB: 1 Anarchy/Anger of the Gods
SB: 1 Pyroclasm


i've a couple of questions:

1) why md is played only ssg and not chrome mox?
2) why not splash for cantrips? if our opponent has 1-2 cpells we are litteraly at the top deck.

thx if u want awnser ^^

cya, Hadhod

[mistercakes]

don't mind answering! can use as much help from other players to get this deck on the radar.

so i think it's possible with using chandra that mox could be played over simian spirit guide. i haven't tested it enough, but usually mox is a lot of card disadvantage. if you were to test it i'm pretty sure you would need to cut the guides (i like them b/c they also function as possible blockers for chandra and don't waste an additional card).

(note you have 5 chandras in your list)

the other question is about cantrips. you could potentially play cantrips in a deck like this, but unfortunately the other decks that cantrip well are TES, ANT, and high tide. they unfortunately just do the job of cantripping a lot better, and I think the manabase is better as a stable one. vieko does run probes, which are probably the best cantrip for this deck (compared w/ any of the other blue ones).

you could also run act on impulse, if you have out a ruby medallion it's a perfectly fine topdeck for only 1R.

because you're on 3 grids maindeck, i would try to trim hazoret's to at most 2, you could potentially go to 1. i'd run 2 act on impulse in place of them. up to you though.

[hadhod]

don't mind answering! can use as much help from other players to get this deck on the radar.
(note you have 5 chandras in your list)


i see it in a test i did now xD

i think it is By Force.

I think the deck was pretty good if u want go storm at t1, but it's only a first feeling.




the other question is about cantrips. you could potentially play cantrips in a deck like this, but unfortunately the other decks that cantrip well are TES, ANT, and high tide. they unfortunately just do the job of cantripping a lot better, and I think the manabase is better as a stable one. vieko does run probes, which are probably the best cantrip for this deck (compared w/ any of the other blue ones).

you could also run act on impulse, if you have out a ruby medallion it's a perfectly fine topdeck for only 1R.

because you're on 3 grids maindeck, i would try to trim hazoret's to at most 2, you could potentially go to 1. i'd run 2 act on impulse in place of them. up to you though.


Act on Impulse can be good, like other tested it, but with "only" 4 ruby and 8 rite i'm not sure i want it. In the case it's resolve and u find a Hazoret?

for now, with 3 grids, i'm quite good with them, but i don't have a lots of test for now. I want test against delver before i cut them, but 2x seems the right choose for the md

[mistercakes]

believe it or not the big card in the deck is not hazoret's, it's reforge the soul. there's a reason wheel of fortune is banned, and we're more or less playing 7 copies of it. hazoret's can be great if you hit, but it's miserable if you whiff. i think the effect is powerful enough to continue running it, although vieko told me he has moved past it.

[mistercakes]

so i played two leagues with my latest list:

beat UR (2-0) delver
beat BR (2-1) reanimator
beat DNT (2-1)
lost DNT (1-2) (same guy)
lost eureka show (0-2)

beat ANT (2-0)
lost DNT (0-2) (pleasantkenobi)
beat loam (2-0)
beat 4c control (2-1) pellenik
beat 4c control (2-0) jacetmsst

overall 7-3

I'm pretty satisfied with these results given that the players were all pretty competent (especially the 4c control decks, i've seen them on mtggoldfish with 6-0 challenge finishes. My 2 losses to DNT were to pretty standard DNT losses, however i think me running 3 rending volleys (in fear of thalia and leovold) could have been maybe 2 rending volley and either another grapeshot, or if i just plan on boarding in another card it's entirely possible that it could be a kozilek's return. it's also possible a 2nd cave-in would be great here. i lost to a phyrexian revoker on my chandra in 2 of the 4 games that i lost.

my other loss to eureka show just feels like a pretty tough matchup. we are just racing, but they run counterspells and they win with a 3-4 mana spell. it's not impossible, but i'm not confident in that matchup. the blue decks felt fine, even without defense grids. loam was a bit tricky, but by force hit his chalice and rending volley killed his thalia/knight b/c of its non counter clause.

hazoret's was fine, it didn't do anything crazy. i think two is the right number, it can steal games and due to the randomness, it's usually a must counter for opponents. the big innovation in this testing was gamble. i was pretty skeptical of it at first, as i had tried it in much older versions, but it does feel good.

the other major change from the version where i went 2-3 and 1-4 was that i increased my lands from 14 to 16. this change really makes the deck viable.

if i were to make a change to the maindeck, i would probably cut 1 chandra (playing 2) for something else. i'm not sure what it would be at this time, but it would likely need to be a big impact spell.

here's the list:



4 burning wish
3 reforge the soul
2 hazoret's undying fury
3 chandra, torch of defiance
1 commune with lava
3 past in flames
2 empty the warrens
2 gamble
4 seething song
4 manamorphose
4 ruby medallion
4 rite of flame
4 simian spirit guide
4 lotus petal
12 mountain
4 ancient tomb

sb:
3 rending volley
3 scab-clan berserker
2 tormod's crypt
1 cave-in
1 by force
1 past in flames
1 empty the warrens
1 grapeshot
1 reforge the soul
1 tendrils of agony


suggestions for 1 chandra, and sb 1 rending volley?

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Did we play today? I thought I was so dead game 1 but I slipped through with ports and a token just in time after an underwhelming hazoret's. Game 2 the berserker almost got there but I drew so much of my board that I was kind of lucky that game as well.

Fun deck!

[mistercakes]

I don't recall a game like that. Could. Be vieko or someone else playing the deck. The account I play on is called "saturn".

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Ah wasn't you then. They seemed like they definitely using your list with the berserker showing up in g2. I was on Lands with ports and expecting to die the whole time.

[mistercakes]

Nice to see the deck is getting picked up. I wouldn't have tried boarding in berserker vs lands. Seems weird.

[mistercakes]

did another league, this one to a disappointing 1-4.

1-2
BUG delver w/ mongoose.
game 1 i sneak a chandra through a daze w/ ssg.
game 2 i try to go off, but he counters. i get an untap step and try to go off again, but he had 4 more counters. (lots of guys in play )
game 3 i get a turn 1 ruby. he has drs and mongoose. i wish for cave in. cave-in with 4 mana open. he forces. then i reiterate the cave in. he forces again. then he draws a thoughseize for my chandra. his mongoose is small so it's a slow clock. i draw a crypt to slow it down more. not many outs so need to draw a wish or reforge miracle. he draws another thoughtseize, but it doesn't matter as i don't draw any business spell.

2-1
lands
game 1 turn 1 ruby with tomb and unload my hand for a wish->reforge. he discards a bunch of lands but no loam. my turn 2 i play another a hazoret's which yields me a 2nd ruby, 2 spirit guide and a wish, i make 18 goblins or so. he punishing fires a guide. i attack and he gets chasm. (my lands don't untap this turn). his next turn he is sitting on chasm and 2 lands. i untap and go off and tendrils him.
game 2 he goes turn 1 land exploration stage. turn 2 stage #2 and another land. all i can do is play a turn 2 ruby and hope he doesn't have crop rotation. he does.
game 3 i have to mulligan to 5, but have double ruby. he has double sphere of resistance. there's a point where has dark depths, stage and 2 lands. i had just wished for by force. i untap and kill his 2 spheres with only a manamorphose and a petal. i luckily draw into a past in flames and am able to chain about 20 spells and kill him.

1-2
eldrazi
game 1 he's on the play. he is obviously sitting on a warping wail (he sat for about 3 minutes trying to find my decklist but he can't...so he lets it resolve. i cast seething song into chandra. unfortauntely for me end stepped token and then played an ugin and reality smashed me. couldn't draw out of it.
game 2 my opening hand is : tomb, ruby, 2 petal, guide, mtn, hazoret's. i'll keep! he has turn 1 chalice. i draw RoF. i go for it and hit a wheel and a gamble. my next 7 are great. he takes my empty the warrens. i play manamorphose into a 2nd ruby into chandra and kill his TKS. then he plays reality smasher and kills it. i untap and draw another manamorphse and proceed to cast past in flames, generate some small mana (no songs) and cast hazorets into wish empty guide and tendrisl him with 20 goblins in play.
game 3 i mull my 7 b/c it doesn't look aggressive enough. my 6 is bad. i keep a 5 with no land but a turn 1 ruby with a petal afterwards. it wasn't enough so i gotta chalk that one up to poor mulliganning. it's not a particularly good matchup, and it's likely the only other non-grixis matchup where blood moons would be fantastic. in an unknown metagame i still don't like blood moon, but if the meta is lands, eldrazi and 4c then blood moons should be there.

0-2
grixis delver
game 1 i turn 1 gamble, he forces. that's nice. i was just going to get a ruby anyway. he plays a delver. unfortunately for me i whiff on my 2nd land drop. he blind flips stifle. casts his 2nd brainstorm (exiled one w/ fow). i go to cast burning wish for cave in or grapeshot (undecided) he dazes anyway. he casts a 2nd delver. attacks me i'm at 14. i cast rof, into manamorphose thinking i will get some goblins since he's tapped out, but i draw a ruby and cast that instead. sucks to waste a rof. i draw another burning wish. it resolves. cast cave-in with 2 mana open.he has another force. looks like i'm pretty hellbent on drawing something good here. i go to 2. he bolts me. too bad, my next card was a mountain, if he had no more counters i could have resolved a past in flames and went off.
game 2 i have a reasonable 7 on the play. i gamble, he dazes, i use SSG. i play tomb ruby. he lets it resolve after thinking. he has wasteland for my tomb. i go for a combo but he has a force. since his clock is slow i'm hoping to miracle out of it. he plays angler and grudge. i draw rending volley. he got me. :(


game 1 i have a turn 1 tomb + petal. he goes delta go. i cast manamorphose x2, draw a wish, cast empty the warrens for 12 goblins. he mainphase brainstormed then scooped. b/c of no counters, i bring in 2 berserkers just in case.
game 2 i have a pretty good hand with 2 mountain, volley, wish wish, ruby, empty. he mulligans to 6 and keeps top card. he plays a misty and passes. i draw manamorphose, play mountain and pass. underground sea, wasteland DRS. i burning wish for cave in and exile my empty. it resolves. i play a ruby medallion and it resolves. (drawing chandra) he mainphase brainstorms. i cast 2 manamorphose a ruby and a chandra (forces) i cast wish #2 he dazes. he hymns my hand. i play a mountain and pass. hoping for miracle, pif, or wish. draw another land. now hazoret's is an out. draw wheel. it resolves. i draw a bunch of mana and a pif. he exiles my burning wishes. pretty clever guy. i go for PIF he wastelands and in response counters it, then he can exile pif on the stack. he plays out a delver which doesn't flip and i have a spirit guide holding down the fort. i draw a petal. he hymns my petal. i draw a rending volley which keeps me alive another turn due to his unflipped delver. i don't draw a way out of the deathrite.
game 3 i have a hand with sudden shock, grapeshot, manamorphose, ssg, scab-clan, pif, and a mountain. i play mountain pass. he plays thoughtseize. he took the berserker. he plays delver and deathrite. i eot manamorphose and shock his DRS. i draw chandra. then another chandra. he blind flips abrupt decay and attacks me.

losses here were to lots of countermagic, which there is some chance i will get through it anyway. beat lands, which is mostly a race, after sb there is some disruption. eldrazi seems a bit rough. grixis matchup is about even, depending on their clock. it's possible i will start using defense grids again, although it's hard to find the slots.

chandra is really good in the deck, but it's possible that the 2 chandra should be defense grids. my logic for playing chandra is that it is a proactive threat that it can kill leo, thalia, delvers etc and still ramp, and will almost always bait out a force of will. the other option that i discussed with vieko was running uba mask. i really like uba mask, but it's hard to justify not running lion's eye diamond in a build where all your spells can be cast by lion's eye diamond without a real downside. there's a good chance i should just be running sudden shock over the volleys since they kill everything except leovold. then that means vs leovold the main way of winning would just be goblins, which isn't great, but leovold isn't that big of the meta.

i think the safe bet is still defense grid as it only costs 2 mana and is quite easy to resolve.


summary:

bug delver (1-2)
grixis delver (0-2)
bug delver (1-2)
lands (2-1)
eldrazi (1-2)

the deck definitely has a weakness for the tempo + counters deck. because mtgo is so random it's hard to determine what the best build is, but if this meta was consistent i would have easily considered running maindeck blood moons. i think the current configuration is fine except for the reiterate and commune with lava.

it's possible the chandras and those 2 slots could be 4 blood moons. i'm willing to try it irl, but i don't have blood moons on modo, so it can't be tested by me. the other option is just running 3 defense grids and running 1 other card.

[vieko]

Ah wasn't you then. They seemed like they definitely using your list with the berserker showing up in g2. I was on Lands with ports and expecting to die the whole time.

GG supremePINEAPPLE! I messed up on my Wish there... Grabbed the artifact hate instead of Cave-In which would've killed you on my next uptap :) Brought in Berserker because it has won me G2 vs. Lands in the past... it can be underwhelming but, she got there for me before. I noticed you asked me a question in the chat but had already quit the game... what was it?

[supremePINEAPPLE]

I asked about the wish target, figured that you would have had something that killed me on the spot and cave in makes perfect sense. ggs!

[Mr. Safety]

Building the deck in paper, likely tonight. I still have a short list of potential cards I want to try out. I have playsets of Act on Impulse and Hazorets, but I know 4 of either is likely not optimal (per Vieko.) List hasn't changed since I last posted. Here is my list of jank potential cards:

Runeflare Trap (easily triggered by RftS or opponent's Jace/Brainstorms, makes a storm count of 10-13 with Grapeshot lethal)
Inferno Titan (potential alternate sideboard threat)
Young Pyromancer (storm jr alternative threat, similar to EtW, again can combine with Grapeshot to create a lethal endgame)
Cinder Pyromancer (can deal in the range of 7-8 damage on the combo turn, again helps Grapeshot become lethal)
Pyromancer's Swath (classic tech from old extended/modern that turns Grapeshot triggers into Lightning Bolts)

[mistercakes]

Considered those, I'd say the most viable is probably inferno titan. Seems like a valid sb option, or maybe even 1 maindeck, depending on the meta.

Young Pyro could be okay. Especially vs decks that Board out removal.

[Mr. Safety]

Considered those, I'd say the most viable is probably inferno titan. Seems like a valid sb option, or maybe even 1 maindeck, depending on the meta.

Young Pyro could be okay. Especially vs decks that Board out removal.

I want to play Titan maindeck, but with limited protection as it stands it just doesn't seem good. Sideboard seems ok, but it's already tight with the wishboard, Pyroblasts, and a small amount of graveyard hate.

Testing has gone well. I can see the resilience factor being a huge part of this deck's reason for existing. I have done games where 10-12 goblins wins the game, and I have had games where I got a storm count of 20+ and just BW-ed into Grapeshot. My main plan ATM is to play Git-Probe maindeck and then use those slots for protection post-board (Pyroblast/Tormod's Crypt/Rending Volley.) Playing 3 copies of EtW main lets me skimp on those slots in order to squeeze in the protection. I am actively trying to be patient on when to combo out, and that has been giving me much better results. With such a strong PiF game the deck has a surprising amount of inevitability. The later the game goes, the stronger the PiF plan gets (barring Rest in Peace, but even then BW into EtW for 10+ goblins still gets there.) I have been really underwhelmed by SSG, might cut it entirely. Sixteen lands seems fine, but at this point I'd rather play 17 lands before I played another SSG (2 currently.) Doesn't add to storm count, and hitting it with AoI/HUF is terrible.

Act on Impulse and Hazoret's Undying Fury are the real deal, especially HUF. Ruby Medallion makes for broken turns, especially t1. Reforge the Soul isn't necessarily a storm engine enabler, which is what I was forcing it to be. It's actually better to just set up Past in Flames kills by adding 4-5 more cards to the graveyard and refilling my hand, pass the turn, kill next turn.

Slightly tweaked list below, with new sideboard to try out:

4x Ruby Medallion
4x Rite of Flame
4x Desperate Ritual
4x Manamorphose
4x Seething Song
4x Lotus Petal
2x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Burning Wish
3x Empty the Warrens
3x Reforge the Soul
1x Past in Flames
1x Act on Impulse
2x Hazoret's Undying Fury
4x Gitaxian Probe
12x Mountain
4x Ancient Tomb

Sideboard
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Reforge the Soul
1x Past in Flames
1x Grapeshot
1x Goblin War Strike
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x By Force
1x Pyroclasm
4x Pyroblast
2x Inferno Titan
1x Rending Volley


Cut Tormod's Crypt to fit in Inferno Titan. Not sure if that's correct, but I see very little in the way of broken graveyard strategies at the LGS. Dredge is rare, and so are reanimator variants.

[mistercakes]

looks like a pretty solid list to work with. i'd just be aware that the berserker is very good vs storm, which is a tough matchup without it. the desperate rituals do seem great, and i had them in my original version. perhaps i would like to go back to it. 1 pif is a little risky, but i can see the value in that. i'm personally stuck on 3 maindeck, 1 sb....however i will probably drop back down to 2 because i hate seeing 2 in my hand at a time, but i always want 1 each game.

i haven't considered dropping the guides, but i can try that as well. they are nice to sneak through spells past daze effects which the opponent can't foresee.

you can also try cutting the probes for other cards, as more business is probably better, unless if you are having trouble hitting lands or you desperately need the 2 extra goblins.

[Mr. Safety]

looks like a pretty solid list to work with. i'd just be aware that the berserker is very good vs storm, which is a tough matchup without it. the desperate rituals do seem great, and i had them in my original version. perhaps i would like to go back to it. 1 pif is a little risky, but i can see the value in that. i'm personally stuck on 3 maindeck, 1 sb....however i will probably drop back down to 2 because i hate seeing 2 in my hand at a time, but i always want 1 each game.

i haven't considered dropping the guides, but i can try that as well. they are nice to sneak through spells past daze effects which the opponent can't foresee.

you can also try cutting the probes for other cards, as more business is probably better, unless if you are having trouble hitting lands or you desperately need the 2 extra goblins.

Probe is definitely the weakest card in the deck, but it's also one of the few slots that can give for sideboarding. Probe is information, pure and simple g1. G2 its the first to go once I know what's up. The velocity factor isn't insignificant either. Without Brainstorm/Ponder the deck relies on Probe/Manamorphose a lot more to set up combo turns. I could add more business but that business would then be on the chopping block during games 2-3. I may be looking at it too simplistically, but I have a hard time figuring small percentages/edges when dropping from 4 to 3 copies etc. Simian Spirit Guide is also a sideboarding slot, mostly because the protection is much more important than speed. In my testing I need to really pick my window, be patient, and work with inevitability rather than just going for nuts-out speed.

Past in Flames is really plan B for my deck, plan A being Empty the Warrens. I can sometimes blast a fast combo win (got 1 game where BW into Tendrils win turn 2, care of Manamorphose) or sometimes just go deep with Reforge into BW into Past in Flames, re-buy Reforge and then get another BW into Grapeshot. It may be incorrect to play less than 2 Past in Flames, maybe cutting 1 EtW for another copy is correct. I want to test at least 30 games before making changes however (unless its minor sideboard changes to adapt to matchups as I learn.) I find that if I don't chain into a second Burning Wish I will at least chain into another Empty the Warrens. At that point, as long as my opponent doesn't have a wiper, storm count of 12+ kills just as well with Empty as it does with Grapeshot.

Berserker, ugh, I don't own any yet. I just don't know where to cut in the board. I don't face that many storm decks in my metagame, maybe 2 people play it. Elves is a much more common combo deck, and Pyroclasm/Inferno Titan do a hell of a job killing elves. I will definitely get some if I see an uptick in storm.

[mistercakes]

so if empty is your main plan, then probe is totally valid. i also have 2-3 empty in my maindeck, but i'm not running probe. it's just another angle of attack for me.

regarding the probe sideboarding thing....i would just play better cards in the maindeck, and then decide what gets cut based on specific matchups. if you have let's say

1 more AoI, 1 PiF, and 2 of X (whatever they are) then if you were going to cut the Probes no matter what, then just cut those 4 cards. but maybe in some matchups hazoret's is lousy or maybe even reforge doesn't work so well in some matchups, so you might want to trim 1 of them post sb. i actually have been running 2 gambles maindeck which seems to be quite good so far. (it was mentioned earlier in the thread and i got around to it. i also have been running chandra, but might go down to 1 as i don't like drawing multiples at the same time.

i think you have a good point about the guides not being preferred in slower matchups, i will have to test versions without them, but you are correct in running desperate rituals if you aren't running guides. if it's for your local meta, sb should be tuned accordingly. on modo there is a ton of storm and reanimator, where berseker is great. i also have tormod's crypt, where it is also great vs both and is nice to draw after hitting a wheel.

[Mr. Safety]

Regarding Probe: some decks I don't need to sideboard at all, the Wish package is enough. In those matchups having extra velocity is better than some random number of other cards. I could see playing another Act on Impulse, or maybe Overmaster. I really like Overmaster, it might have to be my next purchase, and honestly its probably just BETTER than Probe.

I like your reasoning though: if I'm going to cut Probe in every matchup regarding sideboard, why not maindeck something more relevant. I could easily try this:

-4 Probe
+1 Past in Flames
+1 Act on Impulse
+2 Inferno Titan

That may actually be better than just a random Peek. It also lets me get 2x Berserker/Crypt into the board. I like it, I'll make the change and start testing. I don't think its a significant enough change that it will make the deck all-of-a-sudden 'not work.'

EDIT: I think the threshold for going for a short-stack Warrens is storm count 4, getting 10 goblins. That's a 2-turn clock. Less than that is sub-optimal, more than that is nice but not necessarily going to give an edge on win percentages. I think I can comfortably hit 10 goblins without Probe in the deck, so that is also where my thoughts are at with the cut. Nice dialogue, I appreciate it.

[mistercakes]

Just be aware if you have mana problems. Sometimes it's tough with 12, 4 petal and 4 ssg to get started.

[vieko]

Probe provides more than just a peek into your opponents hand: it also draws you a card and increase your storm count for 2 life... both super relevant with Tendrils / Goblin / Grapeshot. It is probably one of the better cards in this list... my two cents.

[Mr. Safety]

Probe provides more than just a peek into your opponents hand: it also draws you a card and increase your storm count for 2 life... both super relevant with Tendrils / Goblin / Grapeshot. It is probably one of the better cards in this list... my two cents.

Point noted. Testing is the real proving grounds. The deck has been functional, good even. Working towards optimal is the hard part.

[mistercakes]

I would consider testing this list next

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/689113#paper

Gamble and Chandra are flex spots in this one. But they should be something good off of hazoret's.

You could also go for a less risky build and run 3 Act on Impulse over Hazoret's. You won't have the explosiveness of getting a lucky Hazoret's, but your consistency should go up. I prefer to play it risky.

I'd also consider running 1 other flex spot in exchange for the 3rd maindeck past in flames. could be the inferno titan, or an act on impulse etc.

[Mr. Safety]

So summing up the list: No SSG's, 17(!) lands, a bigger focus on Hazorets, 2 Gamble, and 1 Chandra. The rest seems consistent with other variations of non-LED builds in the thread. I like it quite a bit, especially because it focuses more on HUF, which is the card that I think sets this deck apart from other storm variants. Gamble is essentially extra copies of Past in Flames, which seems like techy goodness.

I am testing my above list against a gauntlet (DnT, SnT, Grixis Delver, ANT, Stoneblade variants, Elves, UR Delver, Lands.) So far the deck has issues (regardless of build I think) against DnT (thalia), and Show and Tell (having access to functionally limitless counterspells is hard to beat.) Stoneblade variants seem to be easier because they are trying to disrupt and then race with smaller threats (Bskull, TNN, Jace) which gives us a turn or two to get there. Show and Tell drops draw-7's and annihilator 6's. I haven't tested against Grixis Delver, ANT, UR Delver, or Elves yet.

Haven't drawn Inferno Titan yet, but it seems fantastic against a ton of decks if it resolves. Ripping Jace, Mystics, Delvers, Deathrites, multiple elves. It might be magical-Christmas land, but it also deals 12 damage over 2 turns, out of Push/Bolt/Decay range, and makes short-stack Grapeshots lethal.

[mistercakes]

my main issue w/ inferno is it whiffs off of hazoret's and it doesn't help your storm out too much.

SNT is a bad matchup, i think that's just how it goes unless if you want to have a good sb plan (maybe the pyroblasts are okay there). DNT can be pretty tough, mostly b/c of thalia and revoker...although ruby cancels out a thalia. revoker is only good vs petal and chandra, so it's minimal...but it does have an effect.

after sb you should have some cards vs it. i like rending volley, cave in, sudden shock, pyroclasm, pyrokinesis. if there's a lot of DNT you can even consider kozilek's return b/c of mother of runes.

i haven't had time to test yet in a few days but maybe i'll get some in over the weekend.


-Rob

[Mr. Safety]

Wow, fast response lol.

My big decision for the sideboard currently is Pyroblast vs. Other Options. Pyroblast gives us a decent chance against Show and Tell/Force of Will, but it sucks up a ton of sideboard space when considering the wishboard. I don't see having room for more than 1 Rending Volley, 1 Pyroclasm, and 1 By Force (don't even have Cave-In or Pyrokinesis.) Alongside that decision is how many slots to dedicate to win-cons/engine pieces in the board and how many slots to dedicate to interaction for specific matchups. Goblin War Strike might be unnecessary, and it might be unreasonable to keep the Tendrils in the sideboard (we MUST have a Manamorphose or 2x Lotus Petal after storming off to even cast it.) I think both are dead/inconsistent in too many matchups, which is where I can squeeze in Pyrokinesis/Cave-In.

Inferno Titan is a maindeck interaction piece against fair decks, and a threat by itself. If I were to land Titan it would be a goal in itself, without needing to go further with the storm chain. If I happen to have a Burning Wish in hand with 4 mana floating left over (unlikely) I could do a short-stack Grapeshot for value. If I have 10 mana floating in the first place and I don't have anything keeping me from winning the game on-board then the choice is easy: go for the storm win.

[mistercakes]

i work in front of a computer, so i can keep a tab open for this thread :)

i think at this point these lists just need to be tested again. i haven't tested any lists without spirit guide, so everything at this point with those lists is pure theory. the main benefit of desperate over spirit guide is off of hazoret's. if you don't have a ruby medallion then they do the same thing, except one adds to storm count and the other one helps you deal with daze better. it also provides you with an initial red mana source, which this deck desperately wants.

btw - tendrils is great. i won't be cutting that from my list. it also beats glacial chasm (just worth noting if you play vs a lot of lands decks). also if you're going off a gamble can get you a manamorphose if need be, but usually it's a non-issue.

[Mr. Safety]

i work in front of a computer, so i can keep a tab open for this thread :)

i think at this point these lists just need to be tested again. i haven't tested any lists without spirit guide, so everything at this point with those lists is pure theory. the main benefit of desperate over spirit guide is off of hazoret's. if you don't have a ruby medallion then they do the same thing, except one adds to storm count and the other one helps you deal with daze better. it also provides you with an initial red mana source, which this deck desperately wants.

btw - tendrils is great. i won't be cutting that from my list. it also beats glacial chasm (just worth noting if you play vs a lot of lands decks). also if you're going off a gamble can get you a manamorphose if need be, but usually it's a non-issue.

Well, it really becomes a Gamble then, lol...because you might discard it. Unless you have access to another copy of Past in Flames its a risk that could give you disappointment. If you have no cards in hand it automatically gets discarded; the best part about Gamble > PiF is that it doesn't matter if its in hand or in graveyard, just one mana difference.

I don't think its SSG vs Desperate, I think we need some number of both. I like Desperate better, for all your reasons, but the need for SSG is definitely still there. I cut down to 2, but those 2 are still pretty important (in all non-HUF situations really.)

I'll keep the Tendrils comment in mind when testing against Lands. I haven't tested that matchup yet, but it makes perfect sense when they can keep you off your combo for several turns (while nailing you with a 20/20 lol.)

[mistercakes]

tendrils is good vs everything :(

the gamble is in there for randomness without PIF but it's almost always great with a PIF...or to find a PIF.

[Mr. Safety]

Yes...as long as you can cast it! :wink:

For now, HUF is enough randomness for me. It's about all I can handle, lol.

[mistercakes]

I can honestly say I've never struggled casting tendrils. Have you played a lot of games with it?

[Mr. Safety]

I can honestly say I've never struggled casting tendrils. Have you played a lot of games with it?

A few, maybe 5. In the game (only 1 so far where I've killed with tendrils) it was easy, I drew into a Manamorphose from a GitProbe with Burning Wish in hand and a storm count of 8. That kill was only made possible by casting a Manamorphose earlier in the chain, which drew me into that BW. I had EtW in my hand as the plan, and it just worked out to BW>Tendrils. I definitely need practice to see the lines better, because a Tendrils kill is actually (theoretically) the easiest by only having a 9 storm count. Most of my storm experience comes from modern, which leans on Gifts but isn't really that complicated. Your repetitions with the deck must outnumber mine by 100+ I'm guessing.

[mistercakes]

this is a few days old:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aH-4538-Qk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pW5ivu2vYUQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRfdL-Rz8ik

[Mr. Safety]

this is a few days old:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aH-4538-Qk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pW5ivu2vYUQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRfdL-Rz8ik

Nice, thanks!

[Mr. Safety]

Nice games! I see now how Reforge really fuels PiF. Are you doing 4x RtS maindeck or are you sticking one in the SB? I didn't catch what you Gamble-d for in the second video, I think it was Burning Wish. The game played out too fast for me to see.

It's amazing how the deck can just slog through 1-2 counterspells (they actually just add to storm count!) All of the games demonstrated what a resolved Ruby Medallion can do, which is fuel broken turns. How often do you mulligan when you have no Medalions?

[mistercakes]

Its not a determining factor for me, but the gamble can help find them.

Trying some other cards too. Will post later when I get some data.

[AceOfJacks]

Greetings everyone.

I saw this thread and immediately fell in love. I want to try to brew my own bad version of this deck, so here's my attempt!



Main:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Mountain
4 Taiga (To cast Hull Breach out of SB without relying on Manamorphose or Lotus Petal)
1 Arid Mesa
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Rite of Flame
4 Manamorphose
3 Tormenting Voice
4 Burning Wish
3 Reforge the Soul
3 Hazoret's Undying Fury
2 Gamble
2 Past in Flames
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
1 Tendrils of Agony


Sideboard:
3 Defense Grid (anti counterspell)
1 Cave-In
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Fiery Confluence
1 Grapeshot
4 Hull Breach (probably side in 3, keep the 4th as wish target)
1 Past in Flames
1 Pyroclasm
1 Reforge the Soul
1 Tendrils of Agony

100% untested. Probably going to tweak before running it at a local weekly. Thoughts?

[Mr. Safety]

Greetings everyone.

I saw this thread and immediately fell in love. I want to try to brew my own bad version of this deck, so here's my attempt!



Main:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Mountain
4 Taiga (To cast Hull Breach out of SB without relying on Manamorphose or Lotus Petal)
1 Arid Mesa
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Rite of Flame
4 Manamorphose
3 Tormenting Voice
4 Burning Wish
3 Reforge the Soul
3 Hazoret's Undying Fury
2 Gamble
2 Past in Flames
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
1 Tendrils of Agony


Sideboard:
3 Defense Grid (anti counterspell)
1 Cave-In
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Fiery Confluence
1 Grapeshot
4 Hull Breach (probably side in 3, keep the 4th as wish target)
1 Past in Flames
1 Pyroclasm
1 Reforge the Soul
1 Tendrils of Agony

100% untested. Probably going to tweak before running it at a local weekly. Thoughts?

Read the thread, it will tell you where mistercakes and I are both at for lists. I am basically turbo-warrens where mistercakes has a better past-in-flames plan which kills with tendrils or grapeshot. Both decks can do both, the focus is just a little different.

[mistercakes]

I might have to give in to the defense grids again maindeck. It's really rough playing them game 1 vs a deck that isn't affected by them, but I've lost too many games to double fow + flusterstorm; or counterspell + fow.

While I do like desperate ritual, I think Simian Spirit Guide is better for the deck. Having access to initial Red mana is very important.

I still need to tinker a lot with the lists, but many are good in their own right. Without the blue consistency spells I think you need to take it as it is.

I'm not sure what hull breach is adding that you want a 4x. If you're going to run 4 taiga it does open yourself up to some weird wasteland draws. I'd probably fit in some autumn's veils.

I could even get behind running a loam since there's gamble and games vs blue can go long.

[AceOfJacks]

I considered Hull Breach for a Burning Wishable enchantment removal. Leyline of Sanctity, Leyline of the Void, and even Rest in Peace are all played in my meta, so I wanted an out for those. I should rework some numbers and probably lower the number of Hull Breaches, but I tuink we NEED some sort of enchantment removal if we're going to cover our bases.

[mistercakes]

I can honestly say that enchantments are not a big problem for this deck. Just make goblins if leyline if Sanctity. Same goes for leyline of the void. I've probably played about 100 matches and haven't lost to any of those 3 cards yet.

What the deck struggles against is more unfair decks winning faster or when the fair decks have a clock and 2-3 hard counters (not daze or pierce).

[Icapica]

After I lost my favorite deck (Quinn) with the Top ban, I had been looking for something else that I'd want to play. This deck seems a ton of fun and not very expensive.

How many Chandras are people running now? I've had mixed experiences with it when testing. It's annoying to draw when I'm trying to storm, but occasionally it can buy me a lot of time when I'm not able to combo fast enough.

Seems like people have abandoned Moon effects. Are they just not good enough in the deck?

[mistercakes]

It's not necessary to run any, I like at least 1 as a random out to Leovold or other weird cards.

I'm going to test running some non-zero amounts of Helm of Awakening again, as I never really fleshed those builds out with more than 14 lands.

Will keep updating as I get some games in, but the thought is if I can get a rock out, then cards that are normally low impact (in particular act on impulse) can force some counter magic, where it normally might not if you have to pay the full 3.

Came across this one while goldfishing:

Mountain, rite of flame, rite of flame, seething song, manamorphose, burning wish, past in flames.

Finished the latest league. 2-3. Lost to blue deck blue deck, beat ANT beat rock, lost to blue deck.

This version didn't have any defense grids. Next version will go back to one of my original builds but modified a few cards.

[AceOfJacks]

Just bought a set of Ruby Medallions on TCGPlayer. They will not show up in time for this weeks local, but there is a Dual Land event coming up at my LGS. Usually people expect me to play Dragon Stompy, so this will be a curveball for them.

Main:
4 Ancient Tomb
12 Mountain

4 Lotus Petal
4 Ruby Medallion

4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Rite of Flame
4 Manamorphose
3 Tormenting Voice
4 Burning Wish
3 Reforge the Soul
3 Hazoret's Undying Fury
2 Gamble
3 Past in Flames
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void (lot of Reanimator at lgs)
3 Defense Grid (counterspells)
1 Cave-In
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Fiery Confluence
1 Grapeshot
1 Past in Flames
1 Hazoret's Undying Fury
1 Reforge the Soul
1 Tendrils of Agony

Also, I have a friend who has a set of LEDs that he is willing to allow me to use. He thinks its for a different deck. Should I try them in this?

[mistercakes]

Here's my list im going to test again.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/689113#paper

Vieko's led lists are a bit closer to an all in combo deck. This one instead just tries to hurl massive threats over and over again until 1 squeezes through.

Still considering the 4th probe over the 3rd hazoret's. A Chandra could also be there.

The deck is pretty malleable. Just make sure you are comfortable with whatever build you decide to play.

I think this is probably the safest version to play. The city of traitors are just being tested. So you can run 4 tomb and another mountain or 4 tomb and a crystal vein if CoT isn't accessible to you.

Your sb seems good, I'm not sure if I'm sold on fiery confluence. I've been running some non-zero number of rending volleys for Leovold /canonist/Thalia /sanctum prelate.


Latest edit : did some more goldfishing and I think I'll test a list that isn't so hellbent on getting lucky with hazoret's. It can win games quite easily with a good flip, but need to get some data on a build that is playing a little more conservative. Running 4 AoI and 2 Chandra instead of 3 AoI and 3 Hazoret's.

Went 3-2 in league. Not bad.

Might try 3 magma jets over 1 probe and 2 Chandra. This might remove some sb strain and improve draws.

[solnox]

@mistercakes

Just put your list together and ran a league went 3-2. I played vs Vieko a few weeks back and wondered what this deck was. Super interesting.

I beat ANT, Grixis Delver, Lands,

Lost to Bant Deathblade and TES.

Vs Deathblade, he had it all, dazes, forces, wasteland for tomb etc.

vs TES, he ripped like a champ after he emptied and drew Therapy. I was going to go off on my T2.

Lands was a free win even through Leyline of the Void. Just had to storm harder to like 17 or so before generating enough mana.

Grixis Delver, I managed to win on T3 through Pyro/Therapy+Force of will

vs ANT, he misclicked his flusterstorm on my Reforge the Soul and he flustered himself. I wheeled 7 and easily tendrils

[mistercakes]

That's great news. Did you run the version I posted with 2 Chandra and 3 probe, or 2 probe and 3 magma jet?

Can you post the 75 on here? I'm quite sloppy with that and I'm always updating my link via that goldfish link. Hard to keep track.

[solnox]

4 Act on Impulse
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Burning Wish
2 Crystal Vein
2 Desperate Ritual
3 Gitaxian Probe
2 Hazoret's Undying Fury
2 Helm of Awakening
4 Lotus Petal
4 Manamorphose
3 Past in Flames
3 Reforge the Soul
4 Rite of Flame
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Seething Song
2 Simian Spirit Guide
10 Mountain

1 By Force
1 Cave-In
4 Defense Grid
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
1 Past in Flames
1 Reforge the Soul
2 Rending Volley
2 Scab-Clan Berserker
1 Tendrils of Agony

I don't own chandras online and they're 40 each :( not worth it atm. I dont have Cities eitehr as this was mostly for fun.

[mistercakes]

thanks for posting. i didn't realize chandra was so expensive, that's annoying.

few short questions as it's useful data:

how were the crystal veins? would 4 tomb/1 vein have been better?

how were the hazoret's?

would running 4 probes and 1 hazoret's been better?

also did defense grids do anything for you in the blue matchups? i struggle with wanting to commit so many cards in the board to blue, but not sure if there's any other way.

how would magma jets have been in the deathblade match? i know they are a bit weak vs the other decks you mentioned, ANT/Tes/Lands.

[solnox]

Didn't really feel the difference on Crystal Veins

Hazorets was literally Praise Be To RNJesus. It was either the best card in your deck or worst card.

I think you want 2 Hazorets as you still need some payoff cards.

Defense Grid is key in beating blue decks I think. A resolved Defense Grid is lights out the turn you combo.

I dont think Magma Jet would've helped. It was just some bad draws and misplays that really cost me.

I just ran another 3-2 through a league.

Beat Red Stompy, UB Delver, Jund, Lose to Red stompy, Eldrazi

In my win vs Red Stompy, I T1'd Belcher handed him with burning wish 20 goblins. G2 I fizzled but ripped a Reforge off the top and comboed off easily as I had 3x Medallion effects.

In the Loss, T1 Chandra, I probe, he has 3 ball and I'm short 1 mana to win. G2 Hazorets flipped 3x Probe, Medallion when he had a chalice for 1. I didn't rip a reforge or Past in Flames.

UB Delver- Defense Grid on T1 and T2 won the game. Let me combo off unopposed and he showed me a hand full of flusterstorms. piece

Eldrazi- Leyline+2 Thorn and Lodestone was too much. Mull to 4 g3. meh

Jund- T1 I Medallion, he seizes my burning wish. I sack into another ritual and Reforge with mana floating and easily combo. G2, T1 he seizes again but I manage to ritual into wish for 12 gobbos.

[mistercakes]

Ok I'll keep a misers hazoret's in my build. Being able to not flip a 2nd I think is a safer play.

There's still some room for play with the 75.

Abrade could see some play over the rending volleys. I'd give that a shot. You still would like 3 b damage vs Leovold, but being able to kill trinisphere and chalice / thorn would be better than having only by force.

What makes me happy about this deck is that while ANT and TES aren't really going to be changing many cards with future sets, this deck can get a huge benefit from cards with the exile until eot effect.

A functional reprint of act on impulse could even make this deck a real menace to the metagame.

[mistercakes]

I watched your replay of your match vs TES in the first league.

Game 3 when you burning wished for pif and then cast into a whiffed hazoret's likely should have been

Song into wish into wheel, wheel with 0 mana open, but you hadn't played a land. I think seeing 7 cards here could have set you up. Did you also being in the red guy? I saw that guy brought in his echoing truths so there's no guarantee there, but that guy on turn 1 is really difficult to deal with.

My reasoning behind not casting hazoret's here is that you are using all your mana hoping to flip a wheel and some mana. I think bc you didn't play a land yet a guaranteed wheel + 7 cards is giving you better outs here.

[solnox]

How do you see other people's replays?

[mistercakes]

i'm on the TES facebook group, and the guy posted the replay there. :)

[solnox]

Fair point where I should believe more in Reforge.

Do we have outs to Iona?

[mistercakes]

Fair point where I should believe more in Reforge.

Do we have outs to Iona?

nope! i suppose if you need an out, you can always run karakas in the sb....or just run some more graveyard hate, as this is the main reason iona ever shows up on the board.

[mistercakes]

over the chandra slots (which you're playing hazoret's) you can also try running 2 empty the warrens there. see how many wins you can steal. likewise if you want you can try blood moon. only as a 2 of, but could steal some games as well.

[Mr. Safety]

Fair point where I should believe more in Reforge.

Do we have outs to Iona?

Surgical Extraction in the board, if you face a bunch of reanimator.

Regarding Hazoret's: I've been on 2 since the beginning and I haven't hit the 2nd one once in roughly 40 games. I've whiffed plenty of times, lol, but haven't hit unplayable cards because of cost.

[mistercakes]

fair enough! i'm pretty happy w/ chandra in those 2 slots, but will test empty the warrens and magma jet to see if they improve some %'s in matchups where chandra hasn't really done enough. (usually it's countered, where forcing a magma jet is fantastic for us, and forcing an empty just doesn't make sense.


in non-modo environments i would probably run 3 jet and 2 probe, but on modo there's enough combo to keep the 3 probes. as much as i want to run hazoret's, i think that the deck is probably fine without it. if i am feeling lucky i will run it though, b/c it's quite fun to flip cards over!

with the 5 leftover slots i think here's some combinations that can be tested:

could run
3 probes, 2 hazoret's.
3 probes 2 chandra,
3 probes 2 empty,
3 probes 2 magma jet
3 probes 2 abrade,
3 probes 2 commune with lava,
3 probes 2 blood moon

any of these could also go with 2 probes and 3 of the other card. i think as long as minimum 2 probes you can play with any of those numbers.

for reference the rest of the cards

4 seething song
4 rite of flame
4 manamorphose
2 desperate ritual
2 simian spirit guide
4 lotus petal
4 ruby medallion
2 helm of awakening
4 burning wish
3 past in flames
3 reforge the wheel
4 act on impulse
10 mountain
3 ancient tomb
2 city of traitors

[Mr. Safety]

I've been thinking of cutting down to 3 Probes as well...the deck is incredibly tight to work in even 1-2 slots worth of cards. I'm still on Inferno Titan x2 maindeck, which hasn't come up very often, and 2 copies of EtW (putting in a 2nd PiF in place of 3rd Warrens.) The way I look at it, the deck is basically: mana, engine, threats. I want to have around 11 big payoff cards in the deck (some are literal threats, some are engine pieces that should lead to threats, so 'virtual' threats, so to speak.) I currently have 12.

2x Empty the Warrens
4x Burning Wish
2x Past in Flames
2x Inferno Titan
2x Hazoret's Undying Fury

I don't rely on Reforge the Soul as one of those cards because it sometimes just refills my hand to give me better odds at a combo the next turn. With that said, rituals into Reforge t1 is a very strong play, especially if there is a Past in Flames in the mix. I'm starting to really map out games, which is very helpful for knowing when to go off (sometimes I just have to go for it) and when to be patient.

[Mr. Safety]

We're not the only ones noticing HUF:

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=16419&d=301444

Belcher list with a miser's HUF. Belcher is obviously less resilient than mono-red storm (past in flames is a thing), but the premise is the same. No blue cantrips, just storm a bunch and hope EtW/Belcher/Burning Wish get there.

[mistercakes]

I've been thinking of cutting down to 3 Probes as well...the deck is incredibly tight to work in even 1-2 slots worth of cards. I'm still on Inferno Titan x2 maindeck, which hasn't come up very often, and 2 copies of EtW (putting in a 2nd PiF in place of 3rd Warrens.) The way I look at it, the deck is basically: mana, engine, threats. I want to have around 11 big payoff cards in the deck (some are literal threats, some are engine pieces that should lead to threats, so 'virtual' threats, so to speak.) I currently have 12.

2x Empty the Warrens
4x Burning Wish
2x Past in Flames
2x Inferno Titan
2x Hazoret's Undying Fury

I don't rely on Reforge the Soul as one of those cards because it sometimes just refills my hand to give me better odds at a combo the next turn. With that said, rituals into Reforge t1 is a very strong play, especially if there is a Past in Flames in the mix. I'm starting to really map out games, which is very helpful for knowing when to go off (sometimes I just have to go for it) and when to be patient.

is it these 12 + reforge in your deck? just wondering how many live hits you have when you cast hazoret's. also that is pretty cool with that belcher list. if there's a deck that can hit 6 mana easily it's that one.

[Mr. Safety]

is it these 12 + reforge in your deck? just wondering how many live hits you have when you cast hazoret's. also that is pretty cool with that belcher list. if there's a deck that can hit 6 mana easily it's that one.

Yes, it's those 12 + 3x Reforge maindeck (I side for BW.) I don't see Reforge as a payoff card really, because you have to discard your hand as it resolves. If your payoff is Past in Flames its fine; if its EtW/BW/HUF then it really doesn't get you anywhere. It's a storm engine, pure and simple (just like Ad Nauseam.) The amount of games where I went all-in on Reforge without mana-floating were really disappointing. The amount of times I whiffed and didn't draw a free mana source (Petal, SSG) PLUS rituals to keep chaining were too high for my comfort. The higher land count helps tremendously, but slows the deck down to a turn 3 deck rather than turn 2. That's fine considering the resilience from Past in Flames, but sometimes just too slow. As I noted earlier, some of the more common matchups I would face (Sneak/Show, Death and Taxes) are difficult to navigate. DnT can land a lock piece like Thalia or Rishadan Port, or both isn't uncommon, and combo-ing without Medallion becomes pretty much impossible. Sneak/Show is a nightmare. I sometimes would get *one* turn after they SnT an Emmy onto the battlefield, hopefully getting a storm kill or enough goblins to whether an attack. Even then I only get one more turn with Warrens. And the countermagic, uggh, the countermagic! The version I use for testing has maindeck(!) Flusterstorm.

Matchups against chalice decks are actually easier to manage than the blue decks, so far. The only cards chalice@1 stops are GitProbe and Rite of Flame. That's 8 cards out of the whole deck, lol. Storming out turn 2-3 is just fine because chalice decks typically have slow/little pressure, instead relying on the chalice for most of the work (Eldrazi being the exception, as they run Sphere of Resistence and sometimes Trinisphere.) Maindeck access to By Force is the nuts lol.

EDIT: list for reference, hasn't changed more than 1-2 cards since last post:

4x Rite of Flame
4x Desperate Ritual
4x Seething Song
4x Manamorphose
4x Lotus Petal
2x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Ruby Medallion
4x Burning Wish
2x Empty the Warrens
2x Past in Flames
2x Hazore'ts Undying Fury
3x Reforge the Soul
2x Inferno Titan
3x GitProbe
12x Mountain
4x Ancient Tomb

Sideboard
1x Empty
1x Grapeshot
1x Tendrils
1x Goblin War Strike
1x By Force
1x Reforge the Soul
1x Past in Flames
1x Pyroclasm
4x Pyroblast
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Scab-Clan Berserker (new addition)

GitProbe and SSG made way for Titans. I will be testing as-is for a while to see opportunities. I still want to test Young Pyromancer sideboard...mini-Warrens sounds so good when they board out spot removal. Act on Impulse getting cut was from Vieko's advice. AoI gets a lot worse when it isn't powered by LED mana (it's more mana hungry for sure.) Might cut some number of Pyroblast for Rending Volley...I wish Volley was a sorcery! I suppose Flame Slash or Chain Lightning could work, but susceptible to counterspells.

[mistercakes]

Ok cool, lemme know how it goes.

I'm back on the AoI train :)

It is worse without led, but still one of the most powerful cards in the deck with 1 rock out.

Regarding turn 3 vs turn 2 it might be worth it to have abrade in the maindeck then. Can kill clocks and blow up any troublesome artifacts.

[Mr. Safety]

Ok cool, lemme know how it goes.

I'm back on the AoI train :)

It is worse without led, but still one of the most powerful cards in the deck with 1 rock out.

Regarding turn 3 vs turn 2 it might be worth it to have abrade in the maindeck then. Can kill clocks and blow up any troublesome artifacts.

Maybe...I'm not sold on Abrade yet.

Pros
1) It's 2 mana, so it kills Chalice@1, and it kills equipment if you time it right (but the deck is already resilient to Chalice, equips tend to be slow clocks)
2) It's flexible, kills Deathrite, Stoneforge, Delver, Snapcaster. Doesn't kill Goyf, Angler.

Cons
1) It's horribly inefficient without Medallion. I don't think Incinerate has ever been played in Legacy where Bolt is available.
2) It could be completely dead in some matchups, and we're already tight on slots. Storm, Elves, and even most creature-based mid-range decks can shrug this off or counter it. If I'm going to play something that could get countered I want it to be more powerful (Titan.)
3) It doesn't further any plan, so at best it's a sideboard card to fight hate. Contrast that with something like Lightning Bolt that could up the storm count functionally by 3 with the Grapeshot plan, and 1 extra functional storm count with Tendrils, all the while killing Ethersworn Canonist, Gaddock Teeg, Thalia, AND the above list of threats. Coincidentally can also kill a Jace on 3 if you get lucky (do it with the Brainstorm activation on the stack!)

[mistercakes]

Very valid points. Just need to test, but I know that the other combo decks have been trying it out and it seems to be okay there.

[Mr. Safety]

Very valid points. Just need to test, but I know that the other combo decks have been trying it out and it seems to be okay there.

Well, theorizing is one thing; practical application is another. It may seem bad on the surface but instead may fill a very important role. I am thinking other combo decks are much weaker against chalice@1 (TES, ANT, even Sneak/Show can't cantrip/Spell Pierce/Flusterstorm.) They are definitely in the market for artifact hate that applies to other situations.

TL;DR - Mono-red plays a tricky game by using cost reducers (Medallion) and higher CMC spells. Other decks go with naturally efficient spells at 1 mana, making Chalice better against them.

[vieko]

Well, theorizing is one thing; practical application is another. It may seem bad on the surface but instead may fill a very important role. I am thinking other combo decks are much weaker against chalice@1 (TES, ANT, even Sneak/Show can't cantrip/Spell Pierce/Flusterstorm.) They are definitely in the market for artifact hate that applies to other situations.

TL;DR - Mono-red plays a tricky game by using cost reducers (Medallion) and higher CMC spells. Other decks go with naturally efficient spells at 1 mana, making Chalice better against them.

I've ran Abrade. It is a versatile card to side-in G2/G3 as an instant response to artifact / creature hate. These + Wish targets in the SB, is a solid plan. It all depends on what you are more concerned about. For instance, can you afford your response to Canonist to be countered? If yes, then Abrade is for you... if not, then Rending Volley is better.

[Mr. Safety]

I don't see a lot of Canonist, but if I did I would be playing Rending Volley, for sure. I think Rending Volley, simply for it's efficiency and uncounterable clause, is better than Abrade. I might even go for multiple Pyroclasm in the board, because honestly, that card is very good in the current metagame I am playing in (Delver variants, Elves.)

I get the flexibility part of it, but I don't think (in my limited experience, admittedly) it addresses the core issues of the deck. The deck doesn't play library manipulation, so the deck's strength has to be based on redundancy for consistency. Every card that doesn't do anything to support the main plan takes away from the main plan. Hate cards are necessary, but having hate cards that also support the main plan are better. I think the Chandra inclusion is a great example of this: its necessary interaction that also supports the main plan (adds mana, 'draws' you cards, kills creatures, ultimate is a storm 4 = win.) It does everything you want it to, while supporting the main plan.

I must be sounding noobish, but I don't see Abrade as being that great for mono-red storm. If it were a sorcery, it would be better.

EDIT: I'm not using Defense Grid either, and that may be a factor. Defense Grid makes flexible cards better because you have to somehow jam Grid into the main/side as well, making space a premium. I am opting for 3-4 Pyroblast instead of Grid.

[mistercakes]

yep makes sense. just trying to figure out how the last few spots should work in the sb, and i might value some flexibility with a card over a single dimension card which may not get used at all depending on matchup.

it also can hit grafdiggers cage, which is worth mentioning.

[solnox]

I love Act on Impulse. It basically feels like an Ancestral Recall half the time and you can Flash back it for even more value

[jdmdave]

I got absolutely obliterated by someone playing this while on UR delver. I own almost everything except 2 ancient tombs, so I look forward to a more definitive list before buying in.

[hadhod]

Hi at all.

Yesterday i did a League in Lucca with this list:

// 60 Mazzo
// 12
12 Mountain

// 11 Artifact
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ruby Medallion
3 Defense Grid

// 4 Creature
4 Simian Spirit Guide

// 5 Instant
4 Seething Song
1 Commune with Lava

// 4 Land
4 Ancient Tomb

// 2 Planeswalker
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance

// 22 Sorcery
4 Burning Wish
2 Empty the Warrens
3 Hazoret's Undying Fury
2 Past in Flames
3 Reforge the Soul
4 Rite of Flame
4 Gitaxian Probe


// 15 Sideboard
// 4 Creature
SB: 2 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 2 Scab-Clan Berserker

// 4 Instant
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Lightning Bolt

// 7 Sorcery
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Reforge the Soul
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 By Force
SB: 1 Hazoret's Undying Fury



i go to a 4-1 and i take all the worst Mu that i don't want take xD

round1: Eldrazi 2-0

g1 lost the roll and do 60+ goblins (in a moment a stop to count them xD) at first
g2 he play thorn of ametyst at first, and i play 2 ruby, so i've a little burst at 5th with i won the game the next one.

round2: Stoneblade UW 2-0

g1 otd, tomb in Grid and combo off next turn
g2 is quite strange, because i try to storm at first only for force my opponent to play double flusterstorm and kill it 3-4 turns after playing around a cspell. Very very interesting and complex game

round3: turbo depth 1-2

g1 otd, he mulls to 5 and i win without pressure
g2 i lost from bayou + urborg + vampire hexmage + esg + crop after he mulls to 5 again
g3 i'm stomping but flizzing in an unreal mode: after 2 reforge, with like 20 cards more in deck, i don't see pif and bw for the victory, but also no Hazozet and no other Reforge!

round4: Tezzerator 2-0

g1 otp, tomb into grid -> wasteland -> no lands but petal + ssg + rites for etw for 12 goblins and kill him in 2 turns.
g2 he starts with land, mox diamond, chalice and i use bw for By Force, kill all and goes for 24 goblin in the same turn

round5: Grixis Delver 2-0

g1 otd, after a delver at first i respond with so much land drops (3-4) and he casts a lot of creatures. At 4th i try to go combo off thx also at Probe and found a hand with only 1 Daze.
g2 tomb grid, tomb grid, no mountain, and when i found it i go for lethal.

2 things: i like a lot the deck, seems very good. I found it's very powerfull otd (like all combo decks) and can be adjust for the meta you expect.
In an other way, Grid seems very powerfull for this deck! In a lot of games i don't side and win always thx to him. Also against Eldrazi in first round, i drew 2 of them, but i close always. So, for the mode i built it, i think the deck is solid and very flexible for the actualy meta, but grixis is always a problem. The last, ToA is an overkill: for me, if u want try to go for lethal, grapeshot is always good because u can go for 20+ storm if u want.

i found also this cards for the SB:


Aftershock
Fiery Confluence

[mistercakes]

That's great. Super interesting that you cut manamorphose.

[hadhod]

That's great. Super interesting that you cut manamorphose.

i prefer probe instead morphose, because i want know if i can go combo off or not xD

[Mr. Safety]

i prefer probe instead morphose, because i want know if i can go combo off or not xD

The list is tight, as we've found out, and it seems that you somehow manage to hit massive amounts of storm (and early!) Manamorphose allows for Tendrils in the board, but it looks like you didn't need it.

Did Commune with Lava justify its slot? I would think Act on Impulse would be better for pure efficiency's sake, but I can see how it could scale up really well (doing 4+ if you have an extra 6+ mana floating.)

[mistercakes]

i think it might be worth trying AoI over hazoret's in your build. it's been very effective for me, + normally probe is a much worse hit off of hazoret's than manamorphose.

for reference what my 75 looks like:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/689113#paper

4 seething song
4 rite of flame
4 manamorphose
2 desperate ritual
2 simian spirit guide
4 lotus petal
4 ruby medallion
2 helm of awakening
4 burning wish
3 past in flames
3 reforge the wheel
4 act on impulse
3 Gitaxian Probe
2 Magma Jet
10 mountain
3 ancient tomb
2 city of traitors

SB:
4 Defense Grid
2 Scab-clan Berserker
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Reforge the Wheel
1 Past in Flames
1 Grapeshot
1 By force
2 Abrade
1 Cave-in
1 Empty the Warrens

i am still considering running 1 more empty in the sb instead of the 4th grid.

[Mr. Safety]

I was thinking about Magma Jet to sub instead of Inferno Titan main. I finally got Titan into play against Deadguy Ale in testing. It killed a Deathrite Shaman, dealt around 14 damage to my opponent...then they Liliana-ed him and I lost slowly over the next 5 turns lol. Magma Jet would have been much better at smoothing out draws, killing some stuff for interaction, and its even good during the combo turn by dealing damage or killing a hate card. This might be the Bolt I was looking for, lol. Maindeck this seems good, and it gives flexibility for sideboard while not being dead g1. I like it a lot. Old skool tech to the rescue.

I will immediately be switching to Magma Jet main, Titan side. I like it that much.

Probe is more and more becoming a liability. I think savvy play makes up for lack of information, and honestly, we have to just jam combos anyways. Manamorphose allows for Tendrils in the board, so I will be keeping those and working some sort of substitute for Probe (maybe this is where I can work in Act on Impulse.) Will still play 2x Probe for now, but the slippery slope has started. I think it will eventually get cut. Redundancy is the name of the game for this deck. An extra random draw 1 isn't going to make or break the deck. Manamorphose is a much bigger role-player for the deck and the other draw cards draw multiples (AoI, RtS.) If we can't control card quality we just need to draw a butt-load of cards, lol. Replaying AoI/RtS with Past in Flames is so much more powerful and reliable as well.

So for now:

-2 Inferno Titan
-2 Gitaxian Probe

+2 Magma Jet
+2 Act on Impulse

Sideboard
-1 Cave in
-1 Goblin War Strike
+2 Inferno Titan

[mistercakes]

i'm not sure if it should be 3 probe 2 jet or 3 jet 2 probe. obviously needs to test, when comboing it might be insane for finding wish/pif/putting lands on the bottom etc. all for just R if a rock is in play.

i would definitely run 2/3 but i'm a bit concerned with only 15 lands.

[Mr. Safety]

i'm not sure if it should be 3 probe 2 jet or 3 jet 2 probe. obviously needs to test, when comboing it might be insane for finding wish/pif/putting lands on the bottom etc. all for just R if a rock is in play.

i would definitely run 2/3 but i'm a bit concerned with only 15 lands.

I edited my post, lol. I run 16 lands and Magma Jet should help find lands, better than Probe. I am going to try 0 probes, 2 Magma Jet and work in Act on Impulse.

[mistercakes]

gl! the hardest part for me was always finding the minimum amount of lands to start. that's why i eventually caved in and am running some probes. i think if you can cast magma jet, you're already looking to get rid of lands.

[mistercakes]

I think we're reaching enough players where anyone who wants to join my slack (it's like discord but I've had it for longer) vieko and I talk regularly on there.

I also use it for work, so it's always open on my comp /phone.

If you're interested pm me your email.

[Mr. Safety]

gl! the hardest part for me was always finding the minimum amount of lands to start. that's why i eventually caved in and am running some probes. i think if you can cast magma jet, you're already looking to get rid of lands.

I get that. I think running 16 lands, with the option of Jet filtering through extras, is close to optimal for testing. If my hand is one mana short of going off, finding a land isn't a bad thing either. A full yard, 4 lands, and Past in Flames is not a bad situation either.

The danger with Magma Jet is: do you keep a land without Mountains and count on a Lotus Petal/SSG to fuel Magma Jet to get you there? It's risky business. I would say mulligan that hand. I think Jet falls into the same category as Probe really, it just does more. I have kept openers with double Probe/no lands, but even that is pretty edgy. However, if there is a window where you play Jet to set up your next turn it could be amazing.

[mistercakes]

I get that. I think running 16 lands, with the option of Jet filtering through extras, is close to optimal for testing. If my hand is one mana short of going off, finding a land isn't a bad thing either. A full yard, 4 lands, and Past in Flames is not a bad situation either.

The danger with Magma Jet is: do you keep a land without Mountains and count on a Lotus Petal/SSG to fuel Magma Jet to get you there? It's risky business. I would say mulligan that hand. I think Jet falls into the same category as Probe really, it just does more. I have kept openers with double Probe/no lands, but even that is pretty edgy. However, if there is a window where you play Jet to set up your next turn it could be amazing.

if i had a 1 land hand and it's just a mountain and no other mana source in hand, but had a magma jet...i'm likely to mulligan. same hand but with a probe instead, much more likely to keep.

[vieko]

if i had a 1 land hand and it's just a mountain and no other mana source in hand, but had a magma jet...i'm likely to mulligan. same hand but with a probe instead, much more likely to keep.

I second this motion.

[Mr. Safety]

if i had a 1 land hand and it's just a mountain and no other mana source in hand, but had a magma jet...i'm likely to mulligan. same hand but with a probe instead, much more likely to keep.

Agreed, more likely, but it could still be a disaster lol. Maybe Jet isn't efficient enough (looking to my own advice...) However, our 1-mana options for filtering are really limited.

Do we start looking to Chrome Mox instead of SSG?

[mistercakes]

Agreed, more likely, but it could still be a disaster lol. Maybe Jet isn't efficient enough (looking to my own advice...) However, our 1-mana options for filtering are really limited.

Do we start looking to Chrome Mox instead of SSG?

I tried Chrome Mox, and it's more about what's leftover in your hand. Mox is however better when flipping from AoI. I'm still pretty sure ssg is better.

Mox can still be good if you are casting AoI to find a land.

Maybe just try 1 and 1 for now and see when mox is better or worse. You never want multiple mox, but multiple ssg is fine.

[solnox]

Don't have slack but I could sign up for that

heey its jdmdave from depths

[Raizen884]

Hey, I liked how the deck works and I've been twitching it also online to play something different, I didn't keep track of all of the discussion, but I'll like to put some of my thoughts here.

I really really like the power of Gitaxian Probe, it gives us free spells and lets us be prepared to face certain cards, I prefer Probe over Magma Jet. Another thing over testing, not sure if you already discussed this, reforge the Soul is great, but its drawback giving 7 new cards to the opponent is just so brutal, I have switched more to Act on Impulse, because it feels more resilient on combo turn, so for my opinion its if you do use Reforge the Soul you kind of need the defense grid, reforge + no defense grid is just going to be very hard to beat FoW and too unreliable. I'm keeping 1 on the SB because I can wish for it.

I was actually going a very low count of lands, 14, that kind of backed up by both Manamorphose and Probe, since I was playing more activelly those spells kind of like cantripping, but I agree that might be too low, even though I was playing a more aggressive list to combo off T2.

I'll update my list after some tests and post it here so you guys can take a look at what I have come up with, my biggest concern now is fighting FoW/hate cards, Defense Grid is a way, but I'll try some other things to compensate our lack of hand discard

[mistercakes]

I think it's worth reading through the thread. Happy to hear your results with the deck and the list used to get there.

[solnox]

I've been having trouble playing vs miracles. Their stack of counterspells postboard with the inclusion of daze these days really makes it hard to go off. Some even have Hydroblast.

Defense grid is probably our best answer to this tho

[vieko]

I've been having trouble playing vs miracles. Their stack of counterspells postboard with the inclusion of daze these days really makes it hard to go off. Some even have Hydroblast.

Defense grid is probably our best answer to this tho

That, aggressive play and redundancy... which most lists I've seen on this threat have :) I have less issues against blue decks than other Storm variants.

[jdmdave]

Don't have slack but I could sign up for that

heey its jdmdave from depths

I've had strong GP results with depths, but I still think the deck lacks the level of "play" to keep someone interested in the format. I've always had a soft spot for storm, but can't afford the LEDs/Seas, so this has piqued my interest.

[mistercakes]

it's not 100% certain that LED-less builds are correct. i prefer them currently, but vieko has almost exclusively been testing builds with the LED's for quite some time.

in a deck that is so heavy on act on impulse and past in flames it could be correct, but i like hitting more business spells than mana sources. (i think he's more or less running more maindeck mountains and less sol lands. then he's not running the 4 slots where i currently have desperate ritual and simian spirit guide, and running 4 LED there).

[Mr. Safety]

My personal opinion is that if you are going to use LED then there is already 2 decks designed to use them better (ANT, TES.) Both of those decks pair it with Infernal Tutor for incredibly consistent kills. My thought is that with the mana reducers (Medallions) and Seething Song this deck has mana that is just as, if not more, explosive and can lead to broken turns with Past in Flames and Hazoret's Undying Fury.

Just my $0.02.

[mistercakes]

i'm going to try a few different things.

i currently like the magma jets and still need to test, but am also going to think about those last two slots and try

1 magma jet, 1 chandra torch of defiance.
or
2 hazoret's undying fury

in addition to that i'm also going to test 3 city of traitors and 2 ancient tomb instead of the other way around to see if the life loss matters enough.

[cdnza]

Has anyone tried playing Overmaster? Maybe it's unnecessary, but I love the idea of it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[AceOfJacks]

Has anyone tried playing Overmaster? Maybe it's unnecessary, but I love the idea of it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I literally just bought 4 of these yesterday to try them out. I'm having problems finding space though.

[mistercakes]

Tried it, but when I tried it the list was a bit different. Check the earlier posts in the thread.

[DeliriumFit]

Hey everyone, just bought into the deck on Monday in a fit of excitement, and took it to Legacy Tuesday at my local store, which had about 30 people, generally a fairly solid competitive scene.

I didn't face a single blue deck, which was obviously nice.

Round 1 vs Maverick, I turned 2 or 3 him both games. His only pieces of interaction with thought seizes and pithing needle, as well as wasteland. He never found a Thalia.

1-0

Round 2 vs fuckstorm.dec - basically Death and Taxes running 4 Thalia, 4 Vryn Highmare, and 4 Chrome Mox to accelerate out these dudes, all maindeck, with extra Thorn of Amethyst in the side... wtf! Anyways, he stomped me. When your spells cost 2 or 3 more, its a bad time.

1-1

Round 3 vs regular Death & Taxes - he only every found a single Thalia but I found a second reduction effect. There was also an opportunity for him to vial in a flickerwisp and displace one of my ruby's, but by the time he committed to that, it was too late.

2-1

Round 4 vs Goblins (paired up! the goblins guy never goes 3-0 or 4-0! Good for him) unfortunately for goblins guy, he had absolutely 0 chance here and I turn 3'd and then turn 2'd him quickly enough.

3-1

Here was the list I ran:

Hazoret Storm

Lands (14)
4x Ancient Tomb
10x Mountain

Enablers (19)
4 Burning Wish
3 Act on Impulse
1 Hazoret's Undying Fury
3 Reforge the Soul
3 Past in Flames
2 Gitaxian Probe
2 Empty the Warrens

Storm (27)
4 Ruby Medallion
3 Helm of Awakening
4 Lotus Petal
2 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
4 Rite of Flame
3 Desperate Ritual

Sideboard (15)
3x Pyroblast
2x Sulfur Elemental
1x Pyroclasm
1x Hazoret's Undying Fury
1x Reforge the Soul
1x Past in Flames
1x Ignite Memories
1x Grapeshot
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Tendrills of Agony
1x Goblin War Strike
1x Act on Impulse

[mistercakes]

thanks for the quick report.

wondering if you can expand a little bit.

i notice 10 mountain and 4 tomb. how often were you stuck not finding a land, especially a red mana source?

how many games did you just drop 8+ goblins and run them over without a full combo?

any other opinions/thoughts? if you wanna chat there's a slack for it, just msg me with your email and i'll add ya.

welcome to the club.

[DeliriumFit]

Yeah I was gonna expand on my thoughts after the first day, but got pulled into a work meeting, as you do.

First, yes there were some awkward no red mana hands, and I'm thinking of going up to 15 lands, with 11 Mountains.

As for the goblins, I actually never did that, even though I should have at least once (double petal, rite, land, goblins). If I'm being honest, because it was my first time playing the deck, I always wanted to do the cool, risky line, and go for it. I think with more experience, I'll be making more groups of 8-12 goblins.

Other thoughts:

I didn't put much work into the sideboard, it was haphazardly thrown together. The two Sulfur Elementals seem essential, and I was happy to have them. I didn't have to board in the Pyroblasts, so I couldn't really test if they are what i want vs Force of Will decks. I was also considering Hope of Ghirapur as red-friendly Xanthid Swarm. Worth trying.

I may also have too many Wish targets, was being too cute. Open to ideas. Blood Moon and Chandra is also a transformational consideration which seems sweet!

I think thats it for now? What do you think.

[hadhod]

sorry for the waiting xD

someone ask me about Commune with Lava: probably is always better Act, but i prefer it for some interaction in EoT and try to combo off in mine turn. Isn't very good with Defense Grid, but can be good.

Maybe, a lot of Helms? they are good against no counterspells, but against them? i think i can cut the grids in my list for them, but i'm not sure. Someone play them?

[hadhod]

Someone play Mana Flare? can be good for me, because give a tons of mana at t2-3; but in combo mode isn't very good.

also Gauntlet of Might

[Ferrerothorn]

Hey there!

Longtime lurker and Legacy enthusast, compelled at long last to come out of the forum closet by this deck. Took it to a 4-0 finish at a local monthly Legacy event, and loved every minute.
List used was a variant on the OP, relisted below for convenience, plus my warstories!

To anyone looking into this deck and thinking "Why not just play ANT, TES, or any other good Storm", I'll say the one-word answer is "inevitability". This deck is resilient. Like, with a capital "-esilient"!

SI and TES really need to start asking themselves the big questions in life about conceding if the game goes on longer than their fourth turn, or if you pull the trigger too early and fizzle, you're shafted.
This is not the case with Hazoret the Undead Furry (petition for archetype name?); which has a stunning ability to pull back from misfires, and isn't as FoW-weak as you might think; we simply have too many must-counter nukes. Hazoret's one thing, but Reforge the Soul, Burning Wish, Act on Impulse too...
The Sol Land inclusion really helps us out when fighting through Daze, too. Give it a try if you're reading this and on the fence about sleeving the deck up.

Anyway, my list:

The Kill-Con:
3x Empty the Warrens
4x Burning Wish

The Storm Engine:
3x Hazoret's Undying Fury
3x Past in Flames
2x Reforge the Soul
2x Act on Impulse

Gas, Gas, Gas:
4x Helm of Awakening
4x Ruby Medallion
4x Manamorphose
4x Seething Song
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Rite of Flame
4x Lotus Petal
1x Desperate Ritual

Lands:
10x Mountain
4x Ancient Tomb

Wishboard/Sideboard:
1x Empty the Warrens (Wish)
1x Hazoret's Undying Fury (Wish)
1x Grapeshot (Wish)
1x Shattering Spree (Wish)
1x Reforge the Soul (Wish)
1x Mizzix's Mastery (Wish)
1x Past in Flames (Wish)
1x Goblin War Strike (Wish)
2x Cave-In (Wish)

3x Relic of Progenitus (Side)
2x Red Elemental Blast (Side)

The Glasgow (Scotland) Legacy scene is pretty strong, with a wide variety of archetypes, strong players, and decent event size. Event overview!


Round 1 - vs. Burning Wish Belcher
G1: I lost the toss, and dried up a little inside when my opponent Land Grants, pitches Harambe -> Ritual, Ritual, Belcher.
Fortunately, the chain stopped there, and on my turn 1 I pulled off a Burning Wish for Shattering Spree. A long war of attrition ensued, and I was aware that both Helm effects and Draw 7s would probably benefit the Belcher more. Both sides launched off multiple Warrens for 10 or so Goblins, but the virtual card draw on Hazoret and AoImp saved the day. Never known a Belcher game go to 15+ turns and they still had a chance.

G2: Neither of us sideboard. He Warrens for 8 Gobbos @ T1 on a mulligan to 5, I take the 8 from their first swing, then go off for a turn 3 kill.


Round 2 - vs. 4c Loam
G1: I kept a hand of 2 lands and 5 gas, won the toss, but neglected to put a Helm into play on T1 - without some big boy spell in hand, I'm afraid of how much benefit my opponent would get before I do. Turns out I never draw into biznizz, and die to Reliquary beatdown 6 or so turns in.
G2: I sided in 3x RoProgenitus at the expense of 3 Helms of A. My opponent got the dreamland magic hand of a Leyline of the Void after a mulligan to 5, and on his first turn, drops a Mox D and a Chalice on 1. Fortunately, this deck has a good spread of mana costs for gas and business alike, so I wasn't too afraid. I drop a turn 1 Relic which keeps his Loamables in check, he never finds anything more threatening than a Scavenging Ooze, and I eventually Storm off for 18 Goblins by chucking a spare Relic and a Rite of Flame into the Chalice for the Storm count.

"It's like High Tide, but Red" my opponent remarked between rounds. (Red Tide - petition for archetype name #2?)

G3: He finds a Burnwillows-Cabal Pit combo very early on, but that's not enough to stop 20 Goblins on my 3rd turn. Ha!

Round 3 - vs. BUG Combo Elves
G1: Opponent wins the toss and plays first, overextending with a Quirion Ranger into 4 Elves on by the end of his second turn. This was a perfect opportunity to Burning Wish for Cave-In, but he manages to drop a Deathrite and a NO'd 6/6 Craterhoof before I am able to rebuild handsize. I have to go off early to find Goblins to save my ass, but after we've both blasted our handsizes away to nothing, I rebuild faster, and drop a memorable EtW -> PiF -> EtW for 124 Goblins on 3 life remaining. There was quite a crowd building up by this point.
G2: I didn't sideboard. Beautiful opening of Helm -> Helm means I explode on my second turn, and War Strike him for 32.

The Finals - vs. Grixis Delver
A little scouting meant I knew beforehand I was playing a Blue Guy for the finals - I was quite glad of the opportunity to test against counters.

G1: Won the toss, Tomb -> Petal -> Ritual chain lands 14 Goblins on turn 1, and you just can't race that.
G2: Didn't side out my Helms, because I didn't expect much colorless mana in costs on his side of the field. Naturally, he goes first. T1 Delver into T2 Pyromancer just telegraphs that he's holding free counters. I play my small-time ramp (Petals and such) early on to try and bait out some counters, which he doesn't fall for, but that would at least give me the mana to pay for a Daze next turn or such.
Over this time he built up a big-ass Elemental army, though, and I wasn't able to race it.
G3: I'm on the play, I mulligan to 6, and bust out 12 Goblins and a Harambe on Turn 1. He checks the top card of his deck, and scooped on the spot. :D

A fun and rewarding night, an absolute dream to play, and something to keep building on in the future.

[vieko]

A fun and rewarding night, an absolute dream to play, and something to keep building on in the future.

Welcome and CONGRATS! Well done.

[mistercakes]

https://discord.gg/dmvaTz

[DeliriumFit]

Mizzix's Mastery seems a little win-more, no? I figure if you can afford to overload it, you are already way ahead and have much better things to do with your mana. Otherwise, it might be a 4 mana Reforge the Soul or Hazoret's? Thats kind of medium?

Maybe I'm wrong.

[Mr. Safety]

I second Red Tide for a name...

[mistercakes]

Vetoed! Carsten plays a red version of high tide... Which is actually pretty good.

[Doishy]

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSKPW7kYxTLFOmqyU6XIWZ7mfkgpJZ9FbvAeH3RZqyVzpnQDBw2

:)

[vieko]

No, no.... TIGER BLOOD

[vieko]

TWO MONO RED STORM decks at my weekly!

Yours truly and my second favourite Magic Judge + good friend Jefferey. I ran my latest LED list to a 2-2 finish. Jeff passed on mistercakes' Torch Storm 75 and went down his own FURY ROAD (ultimate redundancy) to a 3-1 finish. He only lost to Maverick (Haz'ed into lands) and beat: Elves, Death's Shadow and something else... almost decked an opponent with Reforges / flashbacked Reforges :)


My matches went like this:

2-1 vs. BR Reanimator (Will)
G1: Animated Chancellor, beats, scoop.
G2: Kept no lander with Tormod's Crypt + rituals + business, topped City of Traitors, cast Ruby, cast Ruby... things got out of hand from there.
G3: Double Berserker + Goblins + Storm count for days.

2-0 vs. Elves (Sam)
G1: Established solid board (including Teeg), Wish into Pyro, then Gobbos.
G2: He mulled to 5, I tendrils turn 3?

1-2 vs. Maverick (Mario)
G1: Tendrils for 24.
G2: Locks me with Teeg, Thalia, Canonist... runs Canonist into gobbos (mistake for sure)... I was one mana short from taking the game away via Wish + Pyroclasm.
G3: Was close! He had the upper-hand via tax effects... I almost stabilized but was overdue to make my mistake for the night (see below for more on that).

1-2 vs. Death and Taxes (Andrew)
G1: Made a massive pile of goblins and War Strike for the win.
G2: He locks me down, I stabilized (Medallions) + Goblins... we would've been there forever, I scooped us into G3.
G3: Locks me early, I remove lock, locks me again... Serra / Thalia x 3 me to death.

OVERALL
Love this thing! I piloted better than last time, made only 1 mistake: did not save Abrade to kill Canonist vs. Maverick opting to kill Thalia instead... granted I didn't know he had it in hand but knew very well he runs it. With his clock that game, I had a higher chance to hit my reduction rocks and neuter Thalia's tax than topping a second Abrade... oh well :) Here's my latest list for your reference:


MONO RED STORM 4.3

14 LAND
12 Mountain
2 City of Traitors

8 RITUAL
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song

8 MANA
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

6 REDUCTION
4 Ruby Medallion
2 Helm of Awakening

5 TUTOR
4 Burning Wish
1 Gamble

5 EXILE / PLAY
3 Act on Impulse
2 Commune with Lava

4 MANA / DRAW
4 Manamorphose

4 PEEK / DRAW
4 Gitaxian Probe

2 DISCARD / DRAW
2 Tormenting Voice

2 STORM
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens

1 FLASHBACK
1 Past in Flames

1 DISRUPT / DRAW
1 Reforge the Soul


SIDEBOARD
2 Blood Moon
2 Abrade
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Scab-Clan Berserker
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
1 By Force
1 Pyroclasm
1 Sudden Demise

NOTES ON THE ABOVE:
- 15 lands is what this deck wants. I wanted a MB Grapeshot tonight, 14 lands were run.
- Moved Grapeshot MB to make room for a second sweeper (meta call).
- MVP: Gamble... did not mess me once, got me what I wanted every time it was cast.
- Abrade was excellent.

[mistercakes]

I'm glad people are trying Fury out again. After a few bad runs it's easy to have doubts, but that card is just a bit too powerful.

Sometimes you get 15cc for free.

I'm currently in a league at 3-1.
Beat storm, storm, elves. Lost to Leovold (still got game 1).

How was blood moon?


Other thing about the name of the deck. In the beginning I thought it's be nice to have a clever name, but the truth is simplicity sticks.

Belcher, pox, high tide, reanimator, survival, ANT, rug delver..... The list goes on.

I think its easiest just as mono red storm. I would have leaned towards something like Ruby Storm but again I'd rather keep it more direct.

Also all these reports with different lists more or less means to me that the core of the deck is good enough to do whatever you want.

It's a storm deck that doesn't argue over the last 2 cards, but instead we have a healthy debate about the last 10-14 cards.

There might be an optimal build, but the more I see these results.... Who cares? We will get there eventually. A deck that is competitive and has this much flexibility is super rare.


4-1 in league with this:

3 ancient tomb
2 city of traitors
10 mountain
4 lotus petal
3 probe
1 gamble
4 rite of flame
4 burning wish
1 desperate ritual
4 manamorphose
2 helm of awakening
4 ruby medallion
4 act on impulse
4 seething song
2 simian spirit guide
3 past in flames
2 chandra, torch of defiance
3 reforge the soul

sb

1 tendrils of agony
2 abrade
1 grapeshot
2 scab-clan berserker
1 emtpy the warrens
1 past in flames
1 cave-in
1 reforge the soul
1 by force
1 tormod's crypt
3 defense grid (although could be blood moon, haven't tested)

beat ant ant elves grixis, lost to 4c leo. (still won game 1 vs them and would have won game 2 but i needed to hit a sol land off of the reforge so i could cast defense grid + past in flames. didn't have enough mana and he had the flusterstorm for the past in flames.

2 chandras could likely be 4th probe and 1 of anything (empty the warrens, hazoret's undying fury, 2nd gamble, commune with lava, grapeshot) or if you don't like the idea of wishing for the reforge the soul, i'd recommend just running 4 maindeck. it is something i do regularly though.

[Mr. Safety]

Haz-been

(Hazoret's Undying Fury + Past in Flames, "past" tense of be)

[hadhod]

HS - HeartStone? No, Hazoret's Storm!

this name is quite fantastic xD

\intopic mode: i'm trying now 2 Act on Impulse: i've a question on them: how many Ruby+Helm do u want play for playing Act less possible? Helm seems good, but it's symmetric (good against aggro and control, worst against all others).

[mistercakes]

I feel like a lot of the new people discovering the deck are retracing over the same path vieko and I went down.

Please go through the thread to see progress with the deck. There's been a lot of play testing to come to the results we have. There's a reason I've tried to document all of this.

Currently it feels like 6 Medallion effects is what you can get away with.

I'd argue that Helm is also not great vs control, at least the ones playing kologhans command and snapcaster. The only reason why it's back as a 2 of (we had cut them all for about 2-3 weeks of testing) is because in a deck like this it doesn't matter if it's symmetrical. Our effects with helm /Ruby are much more powerful. (as mentioned in the primer).

I will update the opening post with roughly 3 different building strategies for the deck:

Biggest hazoret's payoff (which was in my original builds)
Most consistent red storm deck (which I prefer)
Strongest LED build (vieko's)

I have moved from option 1 to option 2 since more or less nonstop testing since the card was released on modo about a month ago.

Perhaps I'll also have to include some questions/answers so people don't constantly get stuck asking in the thread on things that have already come up.

I've been a but busy due to having a baby since May, but I went through the thread to show League history.

League history

2-3,(predates haz on modo)
1-4
2-3
1-4
2-2 paper local
3-2
4-1
1-4
2-3
3-2
4-1

I also want to mention that most of this league history was with running 3-4 hazoret's.

Keep in mind I played about double this amount of matches in the casual tourney practice room. (where I could close out mid-game if wife needed me for anything)

There's a fine balance between how many lands rocks and business to play with this card, and this is where playing lots and lots of matches with the deck will help you better understand this.

I love when you can pay 6 mana flip some some dumb. Combination of seething song and past in flames or wheel and just win. Statistically it's quite hard to do this.

Perhaps if we had a real numbers guy do some analysis it would provide an argument against my experience.

I probably should have documented each time hazoret's whiffed, bc it really does have a major importance in deck design.

[solnox]

Just took my list to a 3-0 finish in a weekly.

Beat UR Delver, Elves and Sneak and Show

Elves- Burning Wished for a Cave In to buy time before I combo him out both games in a row.

UR Delver, I T1 Helm of Awakening, drew probe and see his hand of dazes, I rip City off the probe and go off right there.

G2: I flip a Pyroblast off my Act on Impulse which conveniently stops his Force of Will.


Vs sneak

G1: He gets super unlucky and cant find force in 21cards off Griseldad. I combo him.

G2: I play some rituals after he griselbrand activates twice. He forces my first burning wish but lets my 2nd one resolve. I grab Past in Flames which 2 more rituals in hand, a medallion on board and 4 mana floating. He forces the PiF but I play more rituals and FB it to replay my yard. Draw into Burning Wish to kill him.

Pyroblast felt pretty damn good in sideboard and will probably be there for my paper list. Don't currently have any pyroblasts online

[hadhod]

I love when you can pay 6 mana flip some some dumb. Combination of seething song and past in flames or wheel and just win. Statistically it's quite hard to do this.

Perhaps if we had a real numbers guy do some analysis it would provide an argument against my experience.

I probably should have documented each time hazoret's whiffed, bc it really does have a major importance in deck design.

if u want study in a statistical mode, do u wnat a probability at priori (the classic one) or a Bayesian statistic?

[mistercakes]

I never studied statistics, so can't really comment on that. What would be nice is some kind of statistics to avoid debating over gut feelings.

[mistercakes]

Just took my list to a 3-0 finish in a weekly.

Beat UR Delver, Elves and Sneak and Show

Elves- Burning Wished for a Cave In to buy time before I combo him out both games in a row.

UR Delver, I T1 Helm of Awakening, drew probe and see his hand of dazes, I rip City off the probe and go off right there.

G2: I flip a Pyroblast off my Act on Impulse which conveniently stops his Force of Will.


Vs sneak

G1: He gets super unlucky and cant find force in 21cards off Griseldad. I combo him.

G2: I play some rituals after he griselbrand activates twice. He forces my first burning wish but lets my 2nd one resolve. I grab Past in Flames which 2 more rituals in hand, a medallion on board and 4 mana floating. He forces the PiF but I play more rituals and FB it to replay my yard. Draw into Burning Wish to kill him.

Pyroblast felt pretty damn good in sideboard and will probably be there for my paper list. Don't currently have any pyroblasts online

What ya running these days as your 75?

[Krasman]

TWO MONO RED STORM decks at my weekly!

Yours truly and my second favourite Magic Judge + good friend Jefferey. I ran my latest LED list to a 2-2 finish. Jeff passed on mistercakes' Torch Storm 75 and went down his own FURY ROAD (ultimate redundancy) to a 3-1 finish. He only lost to Maverick (Haz'ed into lands) and beat: Elves, Death's Shadow and something else... almost decked an opponent with Reforges / flashbacked Reforges

Second favourite judge... :'(

Full fury seems funner and swingier. Against elves casting 4x reforge and 3x fury in same turn was fun.

The only match loss was failing with fury in each of the games against maverick. Both fury saw mountainx2, tomb and mana morphose, which is extremely unlucky.

[mistercakes]

I think that's closer to my original build, just depends on if you are bare okay with variance. It definitely is fun to shuffle and flip! I think for any 3-4 round local it's probably where you want to have the most fun anyway. Glad to have you aboard.

[solnox]

4 Act on Impulse
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Burning Wish
2 City of Traitors
2 Desperate Ritual
3 Gitaxian Probe
2 Hazoret's Undying Fury
2 Helm of Awakening
4 Lotus Petal
4 Manamorphose
3 Past in Flames
3 Reforge the Soul
4 Rite of Flame
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Seething Song
2 Simian Spirit Guide
10 Mountain


1 By Force
1 Cave-In
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
1 Past in Flames
1 Reforge the Soul
2 Pyroblast
3 Defense Gride
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Rending Volley

I feel I want to try the 8 rock version. Rocks are absurd

[mistercakes]

It's true!:(

Crazy dumb cards. Especially when you have 2 Helm and the rest just become free.

[AceOfJacks]

I did some playtesting with a friend today with this list:
12 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Lotus Petal

3 Helm of Awakening
4 Ruby Medallion

3 Overmaster
4 Manamorphose

4 Desperate Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song

2 Hazoret's Undying Fury
3 Past in Flames
3 Reforge the Soul
4 Burning Wish
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot

Sideboard:
3 Defense Grid
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Cave-In
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Fiery Confluence
1 Grapeshot
1 Hazoret's Undying Fury
1 Past in Flames
1 Pyroclasm
1 Reforge the Soul


He played about 10 games against me with Sneak and Show (maindecking 3x Omniscience), and we only played pre-board, but I honestly think his deck is just faster. I whiffed a lot, or he countered a lot, and he also just SnT/Omni/Intuition/Emrakul a LOT. like 4-5 games in a row. Afterwards, we played a few against his Dredge deck, and it was about 50/50 in 6 or so games. I noticed a lot of times my Manamorphose or Overmaster just didn't draw into enough, so I want to add a few more cantrips (in the form of Gitaxian Probe) to try to hit more gas.

I am thinking I will make the following changes in the main deck:
11 Mountain (-1)
2 Helm of Awakening (-1)
2 Past in Flames (-1)
0 Empty the Warrens (-1)
0 Grapeshot (-1)
2 Gamble (+2)
3 Gitaxian Probe (+3)


Also, I got my Ruby Medallions in the mail today, so I might pilot this at the weekly on Monday.

[Rampart]

So I am new to this deck but why do we run tendrils. I am only two matches into a league right now but I have been basically able to grapeshot people for 30 each game with ease. Its seems to me when we go off we basically go off really hard and really over the top.

[AceOfJacks]

So I am new to this deck but why do we run tendrils. I am only two matches into a league right now but I have been basically able to grapeshot people for 30 each game with ease. Its seems to me when we go off we basically go off really hard and really over the top.

Reasons for Grapeshot:
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Gaddock Teeg
Phyrexian Revoker
Vryn Wingmare
just to name a few.

Reasons for Tendrils:
Sometimes you cannot storm to high numbers, from opponents making you discard, opponents countering key spells, etc. Sometimes storming to 10 is all you can do.

[Rampart]

Reasons for Grapeshot:
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Gaddock Teeg
Phyrexian Revoker
Vryn Wingmare
just to name a few.

Reasons for Tendrils:
Sometimes you cannot storm to high numbers, from opponents making you discard, opponents countering key spells, etc. Sometimes storming to 10 is all you can do.

???what??? I asked reasons for tendrils when we have grapeshot.

[AceOfJacks]

???what??? I asked reasons for tendrils when we have grapeshot.

It's been a tough game. Your opponent Hymed away 4 of your cards. Thwy countered your Past in Flames. They Surgicaled your Past in Flames. You had trouble with mana reducers, due to Kolaghan's Commands. You BARELY got up to 8 storm, and you know one copy of your Tendrils won't resolve. But you have enough to flashback that Manamorphose and play a Tendrils.

Better yet. Your opponent has a Worship or an Energy Field in play. They take 0 damage. Empty won't do it. Goblin War Strike won't do it. Grapeshot won't do it. Tendrils says they lose life, not take damage. Let's try that one.

[vieko]

It's been a tough game. Your opponent Hymed away 4 of your cards. Thwy countered your Past in Flames. They Surgicaled your Past in Flames. You had trouble with mana reducers, due to Kolaghan's Commands. You BARELY got up to 8 storm, and you know one copy of your Tendrils won't resolve. But you have enough to flashback that Manamorphose and play a Tendrils.

Better yet. Your opponent has a Worship or an Energy Field in play. They take 0 damage. Empty won't do it. Goblin War Strike won't do it. Grapeshot won't do it. Tendrils says they lose life, not take damage. Let's try that one.

Beat me to it :) Why not one more wishable angle to win?

[mistercakes]

I'd say it's not 100% necessary, however as mentioned sometimes you can get a small storm chain.

If you are in a meta full of lands decks it gets around glacial chasm. I've won through a glacial chasm lock at least 3 times in league matches bc of tendrils of Agony.

[Rampart]

Beat me to it :) Why not one more wishable angle to win?

Because it absorbs precious sideboard slots. I almost would rather have another scab-clan most of the time to put pressure on blue matchups or combo decks. I understating the flexibility that it generates but how often are you guys really need tendrils.

Worship is still answered by grapshot. Energy field is answered by reforge so I don't think those are strong arguments personally.

The Grindy picture match up is a different story. Your not going to flash back your manamorphose because your pif has already been surgicalled unless you wish post surgical for pif but then your golden anyway. Let's say you don't have anymore pif like your picture you painted. Your probably not going to get up to 7 storm normally without a reforge or a rock so you most likely are going to go for goblins.

Chasm out of lands or 12 post I think might be the real argument but I don't know how much better it I then blood moon. Also I think moon and grid share the same spot

I don't know maybe I am wrong?

[vieko]

Because it absorbs precious sideboard slots. I almost would rather have another scab-clan most of the time to put pressure on blue matchups or combo decks. I understating the flexibility that it generates but how often are you guys really need tendrils.

Worship is still answered by grapshot. Energy field is answered by reforge so I don't think those are strong arguments personally.

The Grindy picture match up is a different story. Your not going to flash back your manamorphose because your pif has already been surgicalled unless you wish post surgical for pif but then your golden anyway. Let's say you don't have anymore pif like your picture you painted. Your probably not going to get up to 7 storm normally without a reforge or a rock so you most likely are going to go for goblins.

Chasm out of lands or 12 post I think might be the real argument but I don't know how much better it I then blood moon. Also I think moon and grid share the same spot

I don't know maybe I am wrong?

I wish I'd kept better records of my matches to back the following findings with data... will start doing so! In the meantime, please take my word for it: most of my wins are from Tendrils kills (guestimating 60%), then Empty (either gobbo damage or War Strike), then Grapeshot. I've played 20+ leagues with the LED variant (my fav), Rob's OG list and the countless iterations we've tested to get here. Not looking to argue really, just putting down my experience :) Good luck!

[AceOfJacks]

Because it absorbs precious sideboard slots. I almost would rather have another scab-clan most of the time to put pressure on blue matchups or combo decks. I understating the flexibility that it generates but how often are you guys really need tendrils.

Worship is still answered by grapshot. Energy field is answered by reforge so I don't think those are strong arguments personally.

The Grindy picture match up is a different story. Your not going to flash back your manamorphose because your pif has already been surgicalled unless you wish post surgical for pif but then your golden anyway. Let's say you don't have anymore pif like your picture you painted. Your probably not going to get up to 7 storm normally without a reforge or a rock so you most likely are going to go for goblins.

Chasm out of lands or 12 post I think might be the real argument but I don't know how much better it I then blood moon. Also I think moon and grid share the same spot

I don't know maybe I am wrong?

Ok, listen, it's late, and I had A LONG day, I'm tired. Maybe my examples were poor.

All I know is that I have played against decks running True-Name Nemesis and Worship. I have also played against decks that contain Energy Field and Rest in Peace. I have even played against decks that have Nevermore in them. It's possible you might find one of these cases once in two months, but these combinations do actually exist in some metagames.

Not everyone plays the same 75 lists in the "Decks to Beat" section. People play fringe decks. People play fun cards, that are not the most efficient answers. People play for the sake of enjoying the game, not being super competitive.

[Rampart]

I wish I'd kept better records of my matches to back the following findings with data... will start doing so! In the meantime, please take my word for it: most of my wins are from Tendrils kills (guestimating 60%), then Empty (either gobbo damage or War Strike), then Grapeshot. I've played 20+ leagues with the LED variant (my fav), Rob's OG list and the countless iterations we've tested to get here. Not looking to argue really, just putting down my experience :) Good luck!

I am not looking to argue either tbh. I guess what I am trying to ask is the following: tendrils accounts for roughly 60% of your kills. Why is that? Is it because it was easy? Is it a personal preference? Is it because it saves you some clicks? Is it because it was the only card that could get the win? Out of that 60% how many times was tendrils "nessassary"

Against not looking to beat someone with a stick, just looking for a more compressive answer I guess

[mistercakes]

In short you won't always get Storm = 19 or 20. You also have to deal with some of these other weird scenarios where tendrils is the only out.

I'm with the experienced boat here. Play a bunch of matches (like 25-30), and then you can do some theorizing about what to cut and add.