[Deck - CaNG Finalist] Wildfire: Mana + Bombs

[DampingEngine]

Although this incarnation of Wildfire is a known commodity in Syracuse and I terrorized a few people in Philadelphia with it, I haven't unveiled the finished product to the internet until now. Here's the decklist:

4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Sandstone Needle
7x Mountain

4x Gruul Signet
4x Talisman of Impulse
4x Thran Dynamo
4x Gilded Lotus
2x Worn Powerstone

4x Trinisphere

4x Sundering Titan
4x Crater Hellion

2x Wildfire
2x Burning of Xinye
3x Decree of Annihilation
4x Burning Wish

SIDEBOARD:
4x Pyroclasm
3x Chalice of the Void
1x Tooth and Nail
1x Decree of Annihilation
1x Burning of Xinye
1x Devastation
1x Shattering Spree
1x Hull Breach
1x Tranquility
1x Recoup

The deck follows the age old tradition of other Wildfire decks (and seemingly every tier 1 deck in the current type 2) of having mana + bombs and little else. In fact, this deck has no less than 37 mana sources to power out 19 potential board sweepers and 4 Trinisphere to lock the opponent out of the game after they lose their lands. One of the best things about the deck is its fundamental turn of roughly 3.5, closer to 3 if drawing first and closer to 4 if playing. Because of its speed and the redundance of its sweepers, an opponent will often never have more than 3 mana available even in a long game. Now, I'll explain the card choices:

4x Ancient Tomb, 4x City of Traitors, 4x Sandstone Needle: These are the three best available lands that tap for 2 mana. I did use Crystal Vein and Dwarven Ruins initially but they made they deck very vulnerable to wasteland, led to many "comes into play tapped" lands to offer consistent speed, and led to an inability to recover if a bomb was countered. The three nonbasics that I'm still playing are pure gold though. Ancient Tomb is of course the best, I've often dealt 10 damage to myself in a game yet never come close to losing because of the advantage it gave me. Most of the turn 3 bomb plays are created by Ancient Tomb. City of Traitors can be better or worse than Ancient Tomb at different times, but it's a close second in power. Getting both a Tomb and a City in the opening hand is often the "nut", and can allow you plays like hardcasting Sundering Titan or wishing for Burning of Xinye AND casting it on turn 3, often without a 3rd land drop. Sandstone Needle is also excellent since it covers the colored portion of all your spells by itself, and its disadvantage is often unimportant because you destroy all lands when you tap it for the second time.

7x Mountain: In conjuction with the Talismans, these give you the double red you need for all your spells most of the time. It also makes you resistant to Wasteland and prevents Crucible-Wasteland from being an auto-loss (which I have run into before). Although a first turn Mountain doesn't allow you as much speed as a Tomb or Needle would, it can be the best play if you don't need to go off turn 3, or if you are playing against a deck like Goblins and are holding Pyroclasm post-board. However, you should mulligan any 7 card hand that doesn't contain a land that taps for 2.

4x Talisman, 4x Signet: Although they only produce 1 mana more or less, they are the most important part of the manabase. They provide a source of red that isn't destroyed by your board sweepers and providing your splash color is just gravy. They can also be cast turn 1 with a Tomb or even a City once in a while, and they effectively cost 1 if you cast another spell after them. This fact alone makes one wonder how people survived playing Fire Diamonds in the old days. Signets are better than Talismans in this deck because of the lack of 1cc spells, but at the moment I have all of them able to tap for green, which is handy.

4x Thran Dynamo, 2x Worn Powerstone: These are basically redundant with each other, which is why there aren't a full 4 Powerstone. These cover the huge colorless portions of your spells most of the time. Dynamo is usally better since it effectively costs 1, but Powerstone can be part of some turn 3 bomb plays so it's valuable as well.

4x Gilded Lotus: I'm very proud to have been the one to break the legal Lotus in 1.5, because it is indeed broken in this deck. It's very rare indeed that you lose a game when you have Lotus on the table. It provides more than enough red to cast any of your spells, and without taking pain. It also is the main way you cast the splash spells from the wishboard. Lotus is truly the biggest reason to play a deck like this, and seperates it from Urza block era Wildfire decks more than anything else.

4x Trinisphere: Trinisphere is the only main deck lock piece because it has the most synergy with the deck. You're inevitably going to destroy lands, and if Trinisphere is in play when you do, your opponent is usually in a position where they can do nothing for at least three full turns. If you destroyed their lands with a Titan, that means you win. If you didn't, that just means it's a good idea to destroy all lands again when the opponent gets two lands out, which isn't hard.

4x Sundering Titan: Getting 8 mana is actually quite easy with this deck; it happens turn 3 sometimes, and you'll end up with much more than 8 if the game goes long. It's extremely hard to deal with a resolved Titan; Swords to Plowshares is usually the only way it dies (although I have had one Vendetta'd before). I don't play creatures that don't also destroy permanents because I don't have to. It's 1.5 after all, and there are a plethora of creatures that also disrupt.

4x Crater Hellion: I am really shocked that Hellion wasn't played in most of the original type 2 Wildfire decks. It's redundant creature hate that's also a kill method, in a deck that can't run that many kill methods. The echo is a problem only once in a great while, it's very rare that I cast a Hellion without intending to pay its echo. The fact that it has echo also makes it undercosted as a 6/6 for 6, which is very nice. 7/7 would be much better, but what can you do.

2x Wildfire, 2x Burning of Xinye: (Burning of Xinye is the same as Wildfire if you haven't looked it up yet.) I only play 5 of these total between main deck and sideboard simply because there needs to be room for Decree. Having said that, Wildfire is the best board sweeper there is, and the #1 wish target. Having so many different board sweepers makes the deck very resilient to cards like Meddling Mage and Cabal Therapy. I don't have much to say about this legendary card and it's twin except that it's ubiquitous in type 2, and it's even easier to get 6 mana in 1.5.

3x Decree of Annihiliation: Although it may seem that this slot would be better filled with Devastation or more Wildfires, Decree is your trump card again decks with counterspells. Unless they have Stifle or Pithing Needle, there is nothing they can do about this card when it's cycled, so when you reach 7 mana, there is always the threat of destroying all lands. This is the main reason that Landstill is not a problem matchup. They need to play a large number of lands to win, but you can destroy them all without warning. It's also an instant when cycled, which often leads to plays like cycling Decree at the end of the opponent's turn, then casting Trinisphere or a creature on your turn without the fear of a non-Force of Will counterspell. It also is the MVP in the Solidarity matchup, and singlehandedly makes that matchup a favorable one for you. If you untap with 7 mana, you can cycle Decree during your upkeep and challenge them to go off without Reset. Or, if you think they're not expecting Decree, you can end your turn and cycle it during their end step, a ploy which often works since Solidarity players like to wait as long as possible to go off. On top of all that, it's one of the reasons that Burning Wish must be countered (along with Recoup), when sometimes a counterspell player will think "I can just counter the spell they get instead of countering the wish". Much like Decree of Justice, it breaks all the rules one expects spells to follow and is indispensable in this deck.

4x Burning Wish: I believe that Wish is one of the most powerful cards in the entire 1.5 format, and is sorely underused. In a deck that plays many sorceries like this one, it's a natural fit. It also allows you to play nonred spells, which is something you just couldn't do if you had to play them maindeck. I'll go over the sideboard presently:

1x Tooth and Nail: Although this is a new, experimental card, I feel like it should've been in the board all along and I was a fool not to think of it sooner. There were so many times in the past that I wanted to wish for a creature. I've even seen discussions here on the Source where people said they put a Living Wish and some creatures in their sideboard to solve the problem. No need for that in Wildfire; 9 mana is easy to produce, and 7 is even easier if you'd rather tutor for 2 creatures and not worry about getting 2 more mana first.

1x Decree of Annihilation: Sometimes the best thing to wish for is Armageddon, so here it is.

1x Burning of Xinye: The primary wish target, which gives you 8 of these effectively.

1x Devastation: This isn't in the main deck because it's bad when cast after one of your creatures unlike Wildfire/Burning, but it is better when creatures with protection from red or bigger than x/4 appear. It's an "out" against a resolved Mystic Enforcer or a reanimated fatty, which would almost surely be a loss otherwise.

1x Shattering Spree: I previosly had both Primitive Justice and Meltdown in the board, but this should be a fine replacement for both and will be crucial in the mirror match, if there ever is one.

1x Hull Breach, 1x Tranquility: Some extra artifact and enchantment removal for stuff like Humility and occasionally Survival.

1x Recoup: This is often what you wish for if it's your second wish of the game. It's also a great wish target if you're playing against a counterspell deck, since they have to counter two things after you get it. It also allows you to reuse things like Hull Breach if you suddenly find yourself in danger of losing to an enchantment.

4x Pyroclasm: Goblins is a tough matchup for any deck, so three of these (leave one to wish for) can be swapped for Decrees to bolster that matchup along with other aggro randomness.

3x Chalice of the Void: Another card that was previously maindecked. Your only 1cc spell can be cast through a Chalice, so it's pure gold in matchups like Threshold and should replace 2 Worn Powerstone and 1 Trinisphere.

Matchups:

Goblins: It's a challenge, but Pyroclasm turns it heavily in your favor games 2 and 3. Although they can win turn 3, it's more rare than your turn 3 bombs. They also have a large number of unimpressive cards like Fanatic, Sharpshooter, and Incinerator, while your least useful card (Decree) can still lock them out of the game with a Trinisphere. Their biggest asset against you is their Wastelands and Ports, and they also have Aether Vial which is sometimes the best card your opponent can play against you, so this match will never be easy.

Threshold: The white version is much more of a problem with their relevant creature removal, although the other version can burn you out from time to time so it's not a bye either. You probably need either a Trinisphere or Chalice early to win. You also need to cast threat after threat or cycle Decree to exhaust all their counterspells. All you need to do is slip one Wildfire through and you're pretty sure to win because of their light land count.

Solidarity: A highly favorable matchup because of Decree and Trinisphere. Obviously, you sideboard Chalice in as well. I haven't played against the new version with Remand yet which should put up much more of a fight, but I doubt the matchup would turn unfavorable.

Rifter: You will win this match very close to 100% of the time. I haven't tested this match very much because, why would I bother? They can't stop you from destroying all their lands unless they have 8 or so Disenchant effects in their board, and even then you probably have inevitability and can just Wildfire or Decree without using artifact mana, and it will be much easier for you to recover from than it will be for them.

Deadguy Ale: I haven't tested this match as much as I would like, because it was problematic when I did play it. Land destruction can actually be a major problem for this deck, strange as it may seem. They do have a good shot at killing you before you get 6+ mana, which is almost always how Wildfire loses. However, if you get 6+ mana, they can't stop you from just topdecking Wildfire and casting it so you have a good chance as well. Pyroclasm should come in for this match because its kills the two card advantage engines of DA and can be cast with very little mana. I wouldn't side in Chalice even though it might stop first turn Duress or Ritual, because it's unreliable. This is probably the deck I most fear in the LMF.

Some other decks I've played against:

Garv.dec: It's a race, plain and simple. Since Garv has the same fundamental turn you do, it's often more challenging than Goblins or other aggro. That being said, Trinisphere hoses them more than almost any other deck and Chalice comes in as well. I think this matchup is in Wildfire's favor.

Turboland: With the addition of basic mountains, this became a much easier matchup. Now, they can't keep you from building your manabase and cycling Decree. The only way they could is if they comboed out very quickly, which hasn't happened in my matches against it.

RGSA: Although it's probably because Syracuse is the home of the most sucessful RGSA player there is (Mulletus), this has been a major problem for me. The addition of Aether Vial makes it very difficult to keep them from recovering. If they don't get Vial, often you can Wildfire quickly enough to lock them out. I'd side in Chalice since keeping them from accelerating before and after Wildfire is so important.

Burn: You have some great weapons against burn. This is possibly the deck that is most hosed by Trinisphere and Chalice. However, it's quite fast and can scrape up a win here and there. It's a very favorable matchup for Wildfire though.

Zoo/RDW: Aggro decks that goldfish turn 5 have little chance against Wildfire. They also have little chance against several other major 1.5 decks, which is probably why they don't end up in the LMF. Just my 2 cents.

...Well, I see that this has turned into a full blown primer, but it's proper considering how much I've played the deck. I've made numerous top 8's and 4's with it and was somewhat close to a top 8 at the GP Philly grinder with a preliminary version that wasn't nearly as good. I think it's proven itself but most players are unaware of it until now, so I'm glad it's finally making its debut in this contest.

[Evil Roopey]

I tested this a little, and I think that it should lean more towards T&N. I like this list a little.

// Lands
4 [MM] Hickory Woodlot
5 [AN] Mountain
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [MM] Sandstone Needle

// Creatures
1 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 [MR] Triskelion
2 [DS] Sundering Titan
1 [FD] Mephidross Vampire

// Spells
3 [MR] Tooth and Nail
4 [GP] Gruul Signet
4 [US] Worn Powerstone
3 [PT] Pyroclasm
2 [9E] Wildfire
4 [MR] Talisman of Impulse
4 [UD] Thran Dynamo
4 [MR] Gilded Lotus
4 [JU] Burning Wish
2 [P3] Burning of Xinye

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [MR] Tooth and Nail
SB: 1 [SC] Decree of Annihilation
SB: 1 [OD] Firebolt
SB: 1 [LG] Chain Lightning
SB: 1 [PT] Pyroclasm
SB: 1 [OD] Recoup
SB: 3 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [P3] Burning of Xinye
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [PS] Hull Breach

It's nothing final, but it is a cool list.

Roop

[DampingEngine]

I tested this a little, and I think that it should lean more towards T&N. I like this list a little.

// Lands
4 [MM] Hickory Woodlot
5 [AN] Mountain
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [MM] Sandstone Needle

// Creatures
1 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 [MR] Triskelion
2 [DS] Sundering Titan
1 [FD] Mephidross Vampire

// Spells
3 [MR] Tooth and Nail
4 [GP] Gruul Signet
4 [US] Worn Powerstone
3 [PT] Pyroclasm
2 [9E] Wildfire
4 [MR] Talisman of Impulse
4 [UD] Thran Dynamo
4 [MR] Gilded Lotus
4 [JU] Burning Wish
2 [P3] Burning of Xinye

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [MR] Tooth and Nail
SB: 1 [SC] Decree of Annihilation
SB: 1 [OD] Firebolt
SB: 1 [LG] Chain Lightning
SB: 1 [PT] Pyroclasm
SB: 1 [OD] Recoup
SB: 3 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [P3] Burning of Xinye
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [PS] Hull Breach

It's nothing final, but it is a cool list.

Roop

It's funny you should say that, because a friend of mine says the exact same thing. It's a much different deck the way you have it. I think there are advantages to both, but I haven't tested Tooth & Fire at all so I'm not sure when it would be better or worse.

EDIT: He also figured that Akroma + Razia was usually the best thing to get against creature decks.

[MasterBlaster]

EDIT: He also figured that Akroma + Razia was usually the best thing to get against creature decks.

Fetching Mephidross Vampire and Triskellion is a one sided Wrath of God.

[Warmonger]

Oh, this deck is really new and possibly playable - althought I find it still a bit slow. Anyway, i wish u luck in this competition.

[bigbear102]

Seeing this deck in action and testing against it has proven to me that it is a very competitive deck. Saying it is slow means that you haven't really taken much time to test it. Any deck that can clear the board of all creatures and land by turn 3 is not slow.

@Roop: Why no MD decree? The card is a house against every control deck. It also seems that Gruul Signet is just a bad Talisman.

@Damping:Is 19 land really enough to drop ur bombs with, I know the artifact mana is where it's at, but it seems that adding in 2 more 2 producers might help ur game a bit.

[Eldariel]

Fetching Mephidross Vampire and Triskellion is a one sided Wrath of God.

However, Akroma+Razia is a 2-turn clock, and gives you 2 tough-to-kill blockers in addition, which is a huge improvement over either Kiki+DSC (only 1 blocker, which doesn't even fly) or Mephi+Trike (takes 3-5 turns to kill, and are extremely vulnerable to any removal, not to mention, opponent can proactively ignore this combo with Pithing Needle). Not to mention, Akroma+Razia is good against control and combo too, making it unnecessary to devote excess room for extra Tooth-targets (although, Kiki+Titan is of course better against control and combo).

[Evil Roopey]

@Roop: Why no MD decree? The card is a house against every control deck. It also seems that Gruul Signet is just a bad Talisman.

Well, you really dont want to blow up all your lands that much when you are trying to cast a 9cc spell. Also, Signet is actually a better Talisman cuz you don't take damage from it. My list has been consistantly casting a turn 3 Tooth. If you are having to much trouble with control which I doubt with all the threats you have, you can always play 4 Titans. Pyroclasm has been house against just about everything, keeping the board clear and giving you time to setup.


However, Akroma+Razia is a 2-turn clock, and gives you 2 tough-to-kill blockers in addition, which is a huge improvement over either Kiki+DSC (only 1 blocker, which doesn't even fly) or Mephi+Trike (takes 3-5 turns to kill, and are extremely vulnerable to any removal, not to mention, opponent can proactively ignore this combo with Pithing Needle). Not to mention, Akroma+Razia is good against control and combo too, making it unnecessary to devote excess room for extra Tooth-targets (although, Kiki+Titan is of course better against control and combo).

Kiki-Titan is a 2 turn clock against control and combo, while blowing up every land they control. Sounds good to me. Also, most of the decks you will fetch Trisk-Vamp against don't run removal that can deal with them. I'll probably be playing this deck in a few tournaments, I like the Tooth version quite a bit.

Roop

[Eldariel]

Kiki-Titan is a 2 turn clock against control and combo, while blowing up every land they control. Sounds good to me. Also, most of the decks you will fetch Trisk-Vamp against don't run removal that can deal with them. I'll probably be playing this deck in a few tournaments, I like the Tooth version quite a bit.

Roop

Yea, I conceeded that Kiki-Titan is generally better against control (provided that there's no Needle naming Kiki, which of course makes that combo downright awful, taking 4 turns to kill+1 turn per chumpblock. StP is a HUGE problem, since "StP Titan" in response to kiki-activation pretty much kills the Tooth-player for W, costing the control-player only two lands), and definately better against combo, but Trike-Vamp...StP, Vindicate and your average black removal can take care of them and they're the only removal played in addition to Bolts (which still kills Trike when used in response to the ability. You can sweep the board in response, but you can't save the Trike from dying), so it only seems like a decent combo against Goblins. Akroma+Razia is going to be sufficient against Goblins most of the time anyways. Then again, if one finds space for both, all the better.

[Evil Roopey]

Yea, I conceeded that Kiki-Titan is generally better against control (provided that there's no Needle naming Kiki, which of course makes that combo downright awful, taking 4 turns to kill+1 turn per chumpblock. StP is a HUGE problem, since "StP Titan" in response to kiki-activation pretty much kills the Tooth-player for W, costing the control-player only two lands), and definately better against combo, but Trike-Vamp...StP, Vindicate and your average black removal can take care of them and they're the only removal played in addition to Bolts (which still kills Trike when used in response to the ability. You can sweep the board in response, but you can't save the Trike from dying), so it only seems like a decent combo against Goblins. Akroma+Razia is going to be sufficient against Goblins most of the time anyways. Then again, if one finds space for both, all the better.

Well, if you want space for both be my guest, but I like more Titans to be honest. I cut the 3 Clasm in the main for 2 Titans and a Mountain. Also, Titan says "When it leaves play" which means that his ability still triggers when StPed, making a control player lose 4 lands. Now if we use the scenario where you fetched a Razia and Akroma, all it would do is slow down your clock, and still giving them the option of mass removal. I like running 4 Titans though becuase it ups the threat count to unsurpassable amount. Four Titans, 4 Wish, 4 wildfire, 3 Tooth, 1 Trisk, and a Kiki. Everything else in your deck is mana or a Vampire, which you can still harcast with a Lotus in play.

[Eldariel]

Well, if you want space for both be my guest, but I like more Titans to be honest. I cut the 3 Clasm in the main for 2 Titans and a Mountain. Also, Titan says "When it leaves play" which means that his ability still triggers when StPed, making a control player lose 4 lands. Now if we use the scenario where you fetched a Razia and Akroma, all it would do is slow down your clock, and still giving them the option of mass removal. I like running 4 Titans though becuase it ups the threat count to unsurpassable amount. Four Titans, 4 Wish, 4 wildfire, 3 Tooth, 1 Trisk, and a Kiki. Everything else in your deck is mana or a Vampire, which you can still harcast with a Lotus in play.

I'm not arguing Razia+Akroma instead of Titans, I definately would play Titans regardless (it's probably the best card in the deck). I'm arguing playing them instead of Trisk and Meph, since Trike and Meph aren't going to accomplish a whole lot in a format with removal and Needle having a strong presence. They were good in T2, because decks against them didn't have robust removal spells, but a simple StP is enough to stop the duo, while it takes 2 to stop Razia+Akroma from beating you bloody and they've probably dealt 12 to you already before you get a chance to StP. Not to mention, you take aeons to kill with Trike+Meph, while it takes only 2 turns from the Angel-pair. So I'd personally use Titans, Tooths, 1 Razia and 1 Akroma (notice how both, Razia and Akroma survive Fire too, Razia can redirect 3 points to Akroma is nothing else is in play, and Akroma is pro-red).

[Evil Roopey]

I'm not arguing Razia+Akroma instead of Titans, I definately would play Titans regardless (it's probably the best card in the deck). I'm arguing playing them instead of Trisk and Meph, since Trike and Meph aren't going to accomplish a whole lot in a format with removal and Needle having a strong presence. They were good in T2, because decks against them didn't have robust removal spells, but a simple StP is enough to stop the duo, while it takes 2 to stop Razia+Akroma from beating you bloody and they've probably dealt 12 to you already before you get a chance to StP. Not to mention, you take aeons to kill with Trike+Meph, while it takes only 2 turns from the Angel-pair. So I'd personally use Titans, Tooths, 1 Razia and 1 Akroma (notice how both, Razia and Akroma survive Fire too, Razia can redirect 3 points to Akroma is nothing else is in play, and Akroma is pro-red).

I'll test it, but I really like Trisk-Vamp. I was just testing and I kill someone with Kiki-Trisk-Vamp. Thats a little faster than Razia and Akroma, especially since you can cast Trisk without a Lotus. I like the versatility it offers over the fact clock. Here is my most recent list:

// Lands
6 [AN] Mountain
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [MM] Sandstone Needle
4 [MM] Hickory Woodlot

// Creatures
1 [MR] Triskelion
1 [FD] Mephidross Vampire
4 [DS] Sundering Titan
1 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker

// Spells
4 [US] Worn Powerstone
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [MR] Talisman of Impulse
4 [UD] Thran Dynamo
4 [MR] Gilded Lotus
2 [9E] Wildfire
2 [P3] Burning of Xinye
4 [GP] Gruul Signet
3 [MR] Tooth and Nail

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [OD] Firebolt
SB: 1 [5E] Tsunami
SB: 1 [SC] Decree of Justice
SB: 1 [9E] Stone Rain
SB: 1 [PT] Pyroclasm
SB: 1 [A] Regrowth
SB: 1 [ON] Slice and Dice
SB: 1 [PT] Boiling Seas
SB: 1 [LG] Chain Lightning
SB: 1 [US] Meltdown
SB: 1 [P3] Burning of Xinye
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [PS] Hull Breach
SB: 1 [MR] Tooth and Nail
SB: 1 [SC] Decree of Annihilation

Roop

[Eldariel]

Mmm, you sure you need that many wish targets? I mean, Stone Rain, Tsunami (you've got Boiling Seas and if you cast Wish, you've got red), Firebolt (you'll usually just rather play Chain Lightning if you want to kill someone, and for 2-toughness critters, you've got 'Clasm) and Meltdown (Shattering Spree much?) seem pretty redundant. If you removed the excess fat at the side, you could add actual sideboard cards too (like 4 Pyroclasms for Gobbos).

[Evil Roopey]

Mmm, you sure you need that many wish targets? I mean, Stone Rain, Tsunami (you've got Boiling Seas and if you cast Wish, you've got red), Firebolt (you'll usually just rather play Chain Lightning if you want to kill someone, and for 2-toughness critters, you've got 'Clasm) and Meltdown (Shattering Spree much?) seem pretty redundant. If you removed the excess fat at the side, you could add actual sideboard cards too (like 4 Pyroclasms for Gobbos).

Redunancy was what I was going for, but I did completely forget that Shattering Spree is all the Artifact removal I'll need. Maybe 4 Clasm can get back in there, although I doubt its needed.

Roop

[Lord Dralnu]

(notice how both, Razia and Akroma survive Fire too, Razia can redirect 3 points to Akroma is nothing else is in play, and Akroma is pro-red).
Just a Nitpick but this isn't correct. Razia's ability targets and Razia is red. You said it yourself, Akroma is pro-RED. Just thought I'd point that out.
I do love the deck though. I really don't think the tooth route is better than just plain Wildfire, but if you guys can test it out I'd be happy to change my mind. I was considering making a wildfire deck for this contest, but I didn't think it was powerful enough in legacy. You proved me wrong here.

[Eldariel]

Just a Nitpick but this isn't correct. Razia's ability targets and Razia is red. You said it yourself, Akroma is pro-RED. Just thought I'd point that out.
I do love the deck though. I really don't think the tooth route is better than just plain Wildfire, but if you guys can test it out I'd be happy to change my mind. I was considering making a wildfire deck for this contest, but I didn't think it was powerful enough in legacy. You proved me wrong here.

Lol, good catch. Then they aren't Wildfire-proof, but Akroma sure as heck is. Spirit of the Night would be, but...Vigilance>toughness. Especially, since if opponent has actual creatures (like, y'know, whenever Vigilance is relevant), you can redirect the damage dealt to those creatures anyways, be it combat damage or Wildfire (since the damage is dealt simultaneously and state-based effects are only checked after spell has finished resultion and replacement effect takes place while the spell is resolving...well, you know the drill) or Lightning Bolt.

[Artowis]

What happens if someone actually decides to run artifact hate in the board like Shattering Spree or Artifact Mutation?

[Danarim]

What happens if someone actually decides to run artifact hate in the board like Shattering Spree or Artifact Mutation?
I guess Shattering Spree is a good option vs this deck, but it isn't played often (it does nothing vs chalice with a single counter and sucks vs trinisphere, the artifacts red decks hate the most), while the rest of the spot removal doesn't affect it much.

[Bryant Cook]

I guess Shattering Spree is a good option vs this deck, but it isn't played often (it does nothing vs chalice with a single counter and sucks vs trinisphere, the artifacts red decks hate the most), while the rest of the spot removal doesn't affect it much.
Shattering spree takes care of chalice. There not spells they're copies of spells like storm.

[Artowis]

I guess Shattering Spree is a good option vs this deck, but it isn't played often (it does nothing vs chalice with a single counter and sucks vs trinisphere, the artifacts red decks hate the most), while the rest of the spot removal doesn't affect it much.

Oh really? I find the suprising since if you could knock out the major mana accelerant from the old Wildfire decks you usually bought yourself infinite turns. Because even if they had another one, you got a Time Walk out of the deal. It's not supposed to be a complete solution, but for an aggressive deck like Goblins or even Burn it seems viable.

On that note, have you considered Sun Droplet or Bottle Gnomes for the Goblins match?

[Mad Zur]

I see no reason to bother with creatures that die to Wildfire, are difficult to cast, or suck outside of a combo. If you want to run Tooth, I think a combination of Sundering Titan, Thunder Dragon, and Covetous Dragon would be best (or possibly something with Crater Hellion; I've never tried it). They're all easily castable, fairly threatening, and big enough to live through Wildfire. In terms of actual quantity of game wins, Kiki + Titan and Vampire + Trisk (or Razia + Akroma) are only very slightly better than 2x Titan and Titan + Thunder Dragon, respectively. On their own, the latter are vastly better.

In this sort of deck, I think it's a lot more important to look at situations where you don't have any threats and ask what you want to draw than to look at situations where you get two threats of your choice and ask what would give you the most comfortable win. If I don't have any threats, I don't want to draw anything that dies to Wildfire unless it means I won't need to play a Wildfire anymore. Furthermore, I don't want to draw something I need a specific four-of to cast, especially if that four-of happens to be one of the best Naturalize targets in my deck. I certainly don't want to draw something that only attacks for two on its own.

[DampingEngine]

Thanks for all the comments (even though most are about Tooth & Fire). I almost forgot to mention, if you want something that hoses aggro as an alternative to either of the strategies we've discussed, Kiki + Living Inferno is pretty insane. Inferno actually survives Wildfire as well.

EDIT: We also discussed Angel of Despair + Kiki for problem cards.

The reason I like the Wildfire deck is because it's a little more consistent. It has 3sphere for the lock and all its creatures are good draws, and it basically replaces a 9cc spell with a 7cc one. Tooth does really broken things though, and has a faster clock if you play the Kiki + Titan or Razia + Akroma combo.

As for its weakness to artifact removal, that is a problem. Seeds of Innocence would be a nightmare most games. Sacred Ground is also a problem. These cards aren't being played at the moment, which is probably why I've been able to do so well. If Wildfire ever breaks out, I'm sure you'll see cards like those in a lot of sideboards, although I certainly don't think it will make Wildfire unplayable. Even Seeds isn't as bad as say Kataki vs Affinity is.

[A Banana]

Obviosly no body has been watching standard closely. When I did I found this card:

Teller of Tales
5 CC
Creature - Spirit
Flying, Whenever you play a Spirit or Arcane spell, tap or untap target creature.

That and Kiki-Jiki is an instant win. I'm not kidding.

Just my 2 cents.

[Drkdstryer]

Unfortunately, it's not. Copying a Spirit with Kiki is not the same as playing a Spirit spell.

I'd like to quote the rules, but this is a pretty well covered question and I don't really want to look it up. Suffice to say, you only "play" a spell if it's in your hand and you pay it's mana cost, or some other effect SPECIFIES that you "play" the spell.

[A Banana]

Oh, Sorry. I guess I wasn't paying attention...

[Bane of the Living]

Tooth and Nail for double Blazing Archon against aggro. It's awsome. Have you thought about soem support ld?

[kirdape3]

Team Meandeck has a significantly different take on the Wildfire deck. Rather than use Wildfire as a random bomb in another big mana deck, we use it as a hammer to win the game against all forms of aggro and control decks.

4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Eternal Witness
4 Rumbling Slum
4 Arc-Slogger *

4 Wildfire
4 Burning Wish
4 Pyroclasm
3 Crucible of Worlds

4 Gruul Signet
2 Talisman of Impulse
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
5 Forest
4 Mountain
2 Barbarian Ring

Sideboard:
1 Devastation
1 Life from the Loam
1 Hull Breach
1 Tsunami
1 Rolling Earthquake

10 empty slots

* represents a dilemma. I personally prefer Arc-Slogger due to it's huge board control presence as well as a nice finisher, whereas other options at the four and five mana slot exist.

As you can see, the list is far from actually fully finished. That's due to a small speedbump otherwise known as Star City Games Richmond, a poor showing (only 2 of 18 power pieces taken, and both by Steve Menendian). All of the initial testing was against just Goblins and Threshold.

Goblins - If they open on turn 1 Lackey on the play, you need a Pyroclasm early because a turn 4 Wildfire on the draw simply isn't good enough. Fortunately, you have as much of a chance of drawing a Pyroclasm as they do of drawing a Lackey. If you are on the play, you can proceed straight to your big drops and then just blast them with Wildfire and Clasm. Sakura-Tribe Elder is awfully good here in absorbing early hits. AEther Vial is also a small problem, but when they're Vialing out 2/2s you're pounding them with 4/5s and 5/5s.

You can be blown out, but those losses are few and far between. Postboard they can bring in Patron of the Akki which is annoying, but Arc-Slogger is pretty rude in this sort of fight. It turned out to be 7-3 in the first game and 6-4 in the second when they brought in a full four Patrons.

Threshold - They need to counter the early accelerants (Elder and Signet) or they can't really keep up. What ends up happening is that they only have a certain number of actual counterspells (4 Force of Will and some number less than 4 of Counterspell) whereas you have a whole lot of things that need countering or they don't like life all that much. Sure, they have 4/4s for 2 mana and 3/3s for 1 mana, but if their hand is depleted and Wildfire resolves... gentlemen, that IS.

If they board Sacred Ground then they're not nice people. They still have to contend with shenanigans coming from Arc-Slogger and Slum (and Rolling Earthquake tags all their forces), but they don't have a positive matchup. This one turns out to be a robust 8-2 in game 1s and the same in game 2 if they don't have Ground - then it's a 5-5 match. Your guys are just as big, come out just as fast, and are far more relevant on the ground.

I'd assume that the combo matchup is really awful, but other control decks are awfully mana hungry and can't withstand repeated Wildfire hits.

[Lego]

@kirdape: Your build seems to have about the same matchup against Goblins and Threshold as the original build does, and a significantly worse game against combo and control. Decree of Anihilation is amazing in those games, and the build on the first page is better able to support it than probably any deck ever. I don't see what matchups you are making better in return for making so many worse.

[kirdape3]

The control matchup is actually better since I have more threats (each of the creatures actually requires something to deal with them, plus Wildfire, plus Burning Wish, plus Eternal Witness to get them all back again if they're countered the first time). The original deck has a huge amount of mana and very little actual gas to support it - something remedied in the German Dragon deck fully seven years ago now by Temporal Aperture and Cursed Scroll to give you SOMETHING to do. I'd rather be deploying at least Sakura-Tribe Elders if I'm on a mana glut, as they block.

[Lego]

Have you even tested the original list? To say that it is mana and no gas seems to say to me that you've never played it. Anything you play should be game ending, and there are so many game ending spells in it that I rarely run out of gas, and when I have, it's only after my opponent has as well.

I don't know how you can say that your control matchup has gotten better. You've got 8 big creatures, the original list has 8 big creatures, 4 of which can often win the game. You've got Wildfire and Wish, so does the original list. Basically, I wouldn't want to go -4 Decree of Anihilation, +4 Eternal Witness. That doesn't seem to be helping the control matchup, and it definitely isn't helping the combo matchup. Your creature threats are worse against aggro (Crater Hellion is usually game over) and control (ditto on Sundering Titan.)

You're packing an even number of threats, at best, and none of them are uncounterable game winners (Decree.) To say that the original list has no gas is crazy, since the only thing that really changes in your build is Eternal Witness, and in theory Decree is going to do about the same.

Finally, you lose Trinisphere. Not good. I can't count how many games second, or even third turn Trinisphere has won me the game. Trinisphere followed by Wildfire is game no matter what deck you're playing against. Against Solidarity, I can often drop the Sphere and Tooth for double Titan for game. Losing Trinisphere and Decree of Anihilation for fewer, worse threats does not seem like a great trade-off to me.

Can you explain how you have more threats, or how your threats are more effective? Granted, Sack Elder is one more threat, but it's not really something that people have to take care of anytime soon.

[kirdape3]

Trinisphere was a blank about 50% of the time. All of those were against Goblins, which have 8 ways of putting things into play without being affected by Trinisphere. Against combo it seems okay, but they are going to have time to bounce it and then kill you. That leaves Threshold, which it legitimately destroys. That just isn't good enough for me.

Yes, I tested the first version of the deck - in 1999, when it was winning the World Championships. That deck had a problem with mana and no bombs, and this one is literally 100 times worse at that. I'd rather just proceed into things that I can cast, and some things to thin my deck with.

[Bane of the Living]

How is this deck better than R/G Land Ho? Theyre both trying to do exactly the same thing, except LftL gives us a draw engine, dredges into our huge dudes (roar of the wurm) and Devestating Dreams is 4 mana cheaper than Wildfire. Not only that but you can control the outcome of Dreams much more than Wildfire. Life from the Loam does an amazing job of ramping mana thanks to recurring fetchlands that you dont need to play Sack Elder, Talismans/Signets, or Crucible to recover.

Ive been doing significant testing with r/g lftl and I cant see where this deck has that one beat by a long shot.

It seems like you guys are taking a step in the wrong direction. I know this is keeping original for the contest, but outside of the contest, Id much rather be packing my amazingly gorgeous Life from the Loams.

[Evil Roopey]

Trinisphere was a blank about 50% of the time. All of those were against Goblins, which have 8 ways of putting things into play without being affected by Trinisphere. Against combo it seems okay, but they are going to have time to bounce it and then kill you. That leaves Threshold, which it legitimately destroys. That just isn't good enough for me.

Yes, I tested the first version of the deck - in 1999, when it was winning the World Championships. That deck had a problem with mana and no bombs, and this one is literally 100 times worse at that. I'd rather just proceed into things that I can cast, and some things to thin my deck with.

So you tested it before it got it's most powerful cards? GJ Noob.

[kirdape3]

None of these cards actually DID anything. A Covetous Dragon would've been just as good (even better sometimes, since the Dragon flew). Nice job, idiot.

[Alfred]

I have one thing to say: Arc-Slogger is awesome. Big Slogs is good enough to find a home in at least one legacy deck, and that deck should probably have Wildfire in to too. I agree with Trinisphere sucking in this format. Yes it's good against Threshold and Solidarity, but it really doesn't do that much to many of the good decks in the format, and there's a term for cards like that: Sideboard Material.

Also, if you want artifact acceleration that is a threat? Pack some Guardian Idols. They are basically CIPT Talismans (you're monocolored) that can do something other than provide mana.

[frogboy]

Be civil. You've all been warned.

[Lego]

@bane: This deck isn't even close to LftL-based decks. You're cycling things and setting up a lock with Confinement, or winning with Seismic Assault or casting a Devestating Dreams or whatever it is that you do. Here, the plan is to spend turn one and two dropping huge amounts of acceleration, and then using all 10 mana that you have on turn 3. It's a fundamentally different plan, and there are a few reasons to play this over Loam, Decree being one of them.

@kirdape3: It's obvious that you most certainly have not tested the original list, otherwise you wouldn't be saying the things that you're saying. Trinisphere is theoretically not dead in *ANY* matchup because it increases recovery time after Wildfire. That fact is that in every single matchup, if you Wildfire with a Trinisphere in play, they need three turns before they can do anything. That makes it never a dead card. As for Combo, you're not going to give them the time to bounce it. You drop it second or third turn, and immediately follow it up with a Decree or a Wildfire, and that's game. It's obviously sub-optimal in certain matchups (like Goblins) but you've got so many other threats in those matchups that I don't mind 4 sub-optimal cards. It helps your combo and control matchups so much that it seems like an obvious inclusion for me.

@Your Covetous Wildfire reference: That deck played 4 Wildfire. This one plays 8. That deck played creatures that did nothing but swing for the win. This one plays creatures that destroy lands and creatures. That deck didn't have Decree of Annihilation. This one does. No Trinisphere there. Burning Wish, Sundering Titan, Crater Hellion, Trinisphere, and Decree of Anihilation are astronomical changes to this deck, and they turn it from the 1999 World Championship deck to a very viable 2006 Legacy deck. The fact that you tested it back then means nothing. Stop knocking it until you've tested the list that was posted here (I don't mean that as an insult, I just say it because you admitted that you haven't tested this deck yet. The threats are worlds better than the old Covetous Wildfire threats, and that deck was good enough in its heyday. I just can't stand by and watch people write off good decks without even picking them up and trying them out.)

And please, please stop posting sub-optimal lists that make a large portion of your matchups worse and none of them better.

@Guardian Idol: He's not a Talisman, as he doesn't tap for a color, which is a huge deal. You're dual color, and even then you need double colors for each of your colors. A hand of Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors, Talisman, Talisman, Thran Dynamo, Trinisphere, Decree of Anihilation is a perfect hand. Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors, Guardian Idol, Guardian Idol, Thran Dynamo, Trinisphere, Decree of Anihilation is an immediate mulligan. You simply don't play enough red sources to be able to play the Idol. He also doesn't allow you to play a Talisman and use it the turn of.

[Amon Amarth]

How is this deck better than R/G Land Ho? Theyre both trying to do exactly the same thing, except LftL gives us a draw engine, dredges into our huge dudes (roar of the wurm) and Devestating Dreams is 4 mana cheaper than Wildfire. Not only that but you can control the outcome of Dreams much more than Wildfire. Life from the Loam does an amazing job of ramping mana thanks to recurring fetchlands that you dont need to play Sack Elder, Talismans/Signets, or Crucible to recover.

Ive been doing significant testing with r/g lftl and I cant see where this deck has that one beat by a long shot.

It seems like you guys are taking a step in the wrong direction. I know this is keeping original for the contest, but outside of the contest, Id much rather be packing my amazingly gorgeous Life from the Loams.

For one thing the Combo matchup is infinitely better. Wildfire is also a much faster deck than Land Ho. Both are very valid reasons to play this instead of Loam.dec.

[DampingEngine]

Thanks for defending the deck for the people who did. It is possible to run out of gas, but it only happens after you've cast a board sweeper because you would've mulled the hand if it didn't have at least one. The biggest weakness of the deck is when the manabase is attacked, by a longshot.

I played a 15 person tournament today and went 3-1 and made top 4, although I did have a bye so I only won 2 matches (we did a top 4 split). Once again I lost to RGSA piloted by Mulletus which is a bad matchup made worse by having a great player behind the deck. Aether Vial is a big problem and I wonder if I should find room for extra Hull Breaches in the board or something for this matchup. I beat suicide black and burn 2-1 each. The black deck won a game after a 1st turn Hymn which took one of my two lands, followed by a Wasteland a couple turns later. The Burn deck won a game by Naturalizing my Talisman. Mulletus won one game by using Viridian Zealot to destroy my artifact mana, and the other game he won because I couldn't draw a threat. So only one of the losses wasn't because of my manabase being attacked, and I was really unlucky. I had something like 8 draws to draw any threat so it was unusual even considering the amount of mana I had. Also, I finally got to use Tooth in combat and it was wonderful. I played a slightly different list eschewing the black splash and adding Gruul Signets instead of the black Talisman, since I realized that Signets are better than Talismans in a deck that has no 1cc spells. I'll edit the original post to reflect the changes since I'm confident about them.

[Lego]

I use Tooth so often, I love that card. There are times when I will wish for it over Burning Wish when my opponent is low on land, or has lots of duals and just get double Sundering Titan. It's also nice after you play Trinisphere and Wildfire and just need a threat, you can topdeck a Burning Wish and get double Titan, usually for the win. Love that thing :)

[Machinus]

What's the benefit of using burning wish/tooth and nail over more lockdown cards? Wildfire Stax has a lot of positive synergy, and is more resistant to discard and permission. Here's the Wildfire Stax maindeck that I posted at TMD:

4 Wildfire
4 Covetous Dragon
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Pyroclasm
3 Powder Keg
4 Mox Diamond
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Crystal Vein
4 Wasteland
3 City of Traitors
6 Mountain
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire


It seems to me that using cards like stack and dragon aren't any slower than building up artifact mana over a period of many turns, and are usually much more relevant to the game state. Hinging the entire deck on the resolution of Wildfire/Tooth and Nail seems risky, whereas having an alternate strategy can make the deck more consistent. In this case, Wildfire Stax can be very aggressive with the dragon, or try to lock down the board without Wildfire. The deck isn't as prone to mana flooding, as Wildfire Stax runs significantly fewer mana sources (ten less!) than the more more controlling version in this thread. As well, lock parts increase the chance that the Wildfire will actually resolve, and amplify it's effects.

Thoughts?

[Lego]

A couple of things are wrong with that analysis. You're not building up over several turns, you're usually building up over the first and second turn, often while laying Trinisphere, and you can "win" on turn 3. You're also not hinging on the resolution of anything in control matchups, because you play Decree of Anihilation.

[MonkeY]

Kiki Jiki + Sky Hussar from Dissension is instant win:

Sky Hussar 3WU
Creature - Human Knight
Flying
When Sky Hussars comes into play, untap all creatures you control.
Forecast - Tap two untapped white and/or blue creatures you control, reveal Sky Hussar from your hand: Draw a card. (Play this ability only during your upkeep and only once each turn.)
Illus. Kev Walker
4/3

It took awhile to figure out that you were talking about Tooth and Nail. Please try to be a little clearer.

-PR

[Mordenkain]

EDIT:
Forget about what I said, I didn't read enough of the post to realize my stupidity... Sry.

[Lego]

Kiki Jiki + Sky Hussar from Dissension is instant win:

Sky Hussar 3WU
Creature - Human Knight
Flying
When Sky Hussars comes into play, untap all creatures you control.
Forecast - Tap two untapped white and/or blue creatures you control, reveal Sky Hussar from your hand: Draw a card. (Play this ability only during your upkeep and only once each turn.)
Illus. Kev Walker
4/3

It took awhile to figure out that you were talking about Tooth and Nail. Please try to be a little clearer.

-PR

It's not exactly an instant win, it just makes an arbitrarily large number of 4/3 Flyers. If you have another one in your hand, you can draw your deck, but basically you're looking at winning the following turn. Not much better than something like Akroma/Spirit of the Night (and just as hardcastable) as far as I can tell...

[Eldariel]

It's not exactly an instant win, it just makes an arbitrarily large number of 4/3 Flyers. If you have another one in your hand, you can draw your deck, but basically you're looking at winning the following turn. Not much better than something like Akroma/Spirit of the Night (and just as hardcastable) as far as I can tell...

Kiki gives all the tokens haste, ergo it's, while not an instant win, win on the turn you cast the Tooth anyways.

[bigredmeanie]

So i've been doing some testing and I believe that the mono-red version is better than a version with MD Tooth. The reason being is that the Tooth version doesn't run as many cards to gain board position, and has to include 2 dead cards for an instant win when everything goes your way, but what you have to remember is that neither version runs that many creatues, and therefore if they have any mana on the board, bet that they have a swords/bolt/ edict/ smother/other. Id rather cast tooth and get 2 titans or titan/Helion so that I instantly gain board control no questions asked. It all boils down to a consistancy issue. The non-tooth version gains control of the board better, and keeps it that way more consistantly.

[Lego]

Kiki gives all the tokens haste, ergo it's, while not an instant win, win on the turn you cast the Tooth anyways.

Right, I'm a big idiot. I even played Kiki/Titan in T2 Tooth.

Anyway, I agree wholeheartedly with bigredmeanie. From my limited testing with the deck, Tooth in the side was just fine for me, and some combination of Sunder Titan/Crater Hellion always won the game for me anyway. Plus it's hella fun to play.

[bigredmeanie]

This deck loses hard core to creatures with protection from red, and from creatures with toughness bigger than 4. Is there anything we can do about that?

Kaerveks Torch needs to find a home in the board.

Worn Powersone blows. There has got to be something better. I cut them both, and am running Rukdos Signet and another Wildfire.

[Rastadon]

Most of the creatures with Pro Red are white, so Anarchy's fine. Other than that your only really threat is SoFI, which you've got Spree for.

[Caligula Superfly]

I replaced two mountains with two Crystal Veins. There is already plenty of red, and I like it since its a plain old land when setting up, but can be used to power out your stuff when you need to. There are so many non basics in there already , I don't think its going to make you any MORE susceptible to Wasteland. Back to Basics could hurt though.

I think Cruible of Worlds might work in the Worn Powerstone slot, especially if some crystal Veins go in there. I find that the deck has more trouble having the artifact mana handy to chuck stuff out after a wildfire rather than casting that first bomb, so it would probably be nice. I also have killed a Traitors or Sandstone needle while powering out artifacts, crucible would get them back.

[MonkeY]

Heres a link to a wildfire deck that looks pretty cool. I will test it for da hell of it.

Loamfire (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1273&highlight=Wildfire)

The plan is to abuse Wildfire with Life from the Loam as a recovery card and Land Destruction to further Wildfires abilities. At the same time you use Fledgling dragon as a win since you can get threshold often. You also run Forgotten Cavern and Tranquil Thicket to keep the engine going. Burning Wish is awesome. For lazy people, heres the list: (By Cynical Squirrel)

// Mana
6 Mountain
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Forest
4 Mox Diamond

// Win
4 Fledgling Dragon

// Engine
4 Forgotten Cave
4 Tranquil Thicket
3 Life from the Loam

// Disruption
4 Stone Rain
4 Pillage
4 Wasteland
4 Wildfire

// Utility
3 Burning Wish
4 Wall of Blossoms

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Naturalize
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Recoup
SB: 1 Shatterstorm
SB: 1 Tsunami
SB: 1 Hull Breach
SB: 1 Burning of Xinye
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Decree of Annihilation
SB: 1 Anarchy
SB: 1 Regrowth
SB: 1 Ruination

Thoughts?

I have one. Maybe some artifact mana aside from Mox Diamond would be good so we can Wildfire w/no lands in our hand. Just 1 or 2 slots for it, though. I am also thinking about a Lightning Rift style win instead of fledgling dragon (either Lightning Rift or Words or War).

Before the arguement comes up, Wildfire is better than devastating dreams in this deck because you get to keep your hand. 1 SB doesn't sound bad, though.

[noobslayer]

I'm aware that though the Big Red thread is home to my original decklist, I'd like to start a new thread for this one. Although the two have some striking similarities, I believe they attempt the same thing with drastically different game plans.

Ponza-Stax, as I will call it, (It will likely acquire some stupid pet name in the near future), is a deck a friend of mine and I designed some three or four months ago. It's original incarnation was highly budgeted, and was home to such cards like Shivan Dragon. After telling me of his near tournament winning success, I took up the deck and got to work optimizing it. Low and behold you are seeing the deck as it is now.

Ponza-Stax 1.0

// Lands
3 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [EX] City of Traitors
3 [MM] Rishadan Port
11 [TE] Mountain (1)

// Creatures
4 [MR] Arc-Slogger
4 [SH] Shard Phoenix
2 [UD] Masticore

// Spells
3 [DS] Trinisphere
3 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
2 [MR] Talisman of Indulgence
2 [MR] Talisman of Impulse
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [PT] Pyroclasm
3 [P2] Wildfire

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [IA] Anarchy
SB: 3 [8E] Blood Moon
SB: 3 [GP] Giant Solifuge
SB: 3 [GP] Shattering Spree

The deck aims to lock it's opponent out using traditional stax disruption elements (although not with smokestack). After it has laid waste to the opponents resources, it drops a fat beater, and smashes the opponent for the victory.

Card Choices:

Lands: Semi-standard stax configuration.

Slogger: Kird_Ape3 suggested him when I was first editing the deck, and since then he has proved useful in testing, and the tournament I piloted this deck in.

Shard Phoenix: A highly overlooked card if I may say so. He trades with virtually all the creatures of Gro (barring the large fliers), Goblins, nukes out elves, prevents Exalted Angels from gaining life, and even fuels up masticores. Five Stars.

Masticore: I was looking for a creature who could survive my sweepers, and contend with troublesome pro: red creatures. Masticore fit the slot.

Talismans: Legacy_Player0 gave me the neat idea for these, and because of him, my Wildfires can be virtually one sided.

Wildfire: Testing with wastedlife proved just how essential this card is to my gameplan. I didn't save the game log, but profanity ensued whenever I dropped one of these.

Solifuge: I needed a quick creature to help me race combo match-ups. Solifuge is great at dodging removal.

I don't have any match statistics right now, but they will be available soon after some in-depth testing. (Contact me if you would like to help).

[Machinus]

How is this deck Ponza? I see straight Wildfire. So let me ask you what makes it better than a more traditional configuration?

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=27779.0

[spiritmage788]

I have been working on a deck very similar to this one, but with more land destruction and less artifact mana. I will probably be testing your list soon to see how it goes!

[Cavius The Great]

Have you considered Burning Wish? It would seem rather nasty to fetch a card removed by Arc-Slogger.

[Nightmare]

Threads Merged

[Lanfeng]

i was thinking basalt monolith would be good for the deck, you can always untap it if you do nothing else in the turn, but maybe that belongs in the power artifact decks. it could be abuseable.

[Caligula Superfly]

Alot of games your thran or gilded lotus will drop a trini, crucible, or sometimes a 2 mana artifact + burning wish the turn you play it. You wouldn't want to do that with monolith.

[bigredmeanie]

actually it would replace Worn Powerstone in the 3 drop slot. Much better than Powerstone.

[Shysh]

i was thinking basalt monolith would be good for the deck, you can always untap it if you do nothing else in the turn, but maybe that belongs in the power artifact decks. it could be abuseable.

I'm sorry, um... what? -_O;;

[Caligula Superfly]

actually it would replace Worn Powerstone in the 3 drop slot. Much better than Powerstone.

I already run Crucible in that slot. Much better than both imo.

[Benie Bederios]

I already run Crucible in that slot. Much better than both imo.

I don't find Crucible better than both of them in this slot, the card don't gives you additional mana consitently and you don't run Wasteland.

[TheAardvark]

I don't find Crucible better than both of them in this slot, the card don't gives you additional mana consitently and you don't run Wasteland.

Crucible has been better for me in the slot, as it sort of allows you to produce R more consistently post-Wildfire/Xinye/Decree, whereas the Powerstone has always been really underwhelming. I have swapped out the Talismans for Mox Diamond (3, at any rate) because the Talismans didn't really help that much in my testing, and turn 1 Trinisphere is a really hard hole to dig out of for a lot of decks.

It's odd, but when I first built the deck a couple of months ago, I wasn't sure about the Solidarity matchup, because it seemed to be somewhat unfavorable because they just needed to keep a bomb from resolving until they could establish the mana and go off (perhaps needing to bounce 3sphere first). I had pretty much no-sold the cycling ability of Decree up to that point, so when I realized it in the midst of being Frozen out of the first game I played against Solidarity. I realized that it was actually pretty favorable. Odd how an instant speed, almost uncounterable Armageddon does that, no?

Anyway, just felt like reviving this thread, as this is probably my second favorite deck in the format, and it's still my dark horse choice to play in Champs at GenCon next week.

[BiscuitVader]

I goldfished the deck from the first page, and I like it.
Alot.

Problems I have had though, is Ancient Tomb is suicide agaisnt goblins.
It may be b/c I'm not playing the deck right, or b/c I'm new. But every time I tap it more than 3 times, Goblins kills me, unless I have turn 2 T-Sphere.

Also, Firecat Bilitz seems like it would make a good addition to the Wishboard.
The kill is really slow, and adding that in would speed it up a turn or two.


EDIT: Also, some form of card draw would be great in this deck.

[Caligula Superfly]

Well, I usually try and use Tomb as little as possible, allowing other mana sources take it's place after a turn or two. I agree that 2 uses vs something like goblins is probably all you want to risk. I cut them down to three for that reason, running some Crystal Veins to supplement the loss (great card in here btw).

@TheArdvark: Good Call on the Mox Diamonds, I had put this deck down a while ago, but was testing the diamonds on MWS and remembered how fun it was. :) Why didn't this deck ever catch on? It wins it's share of games against the top decks, and really deserves some more attention.

[DampingEngine]

Actually I've totally given up on this deck, although I'm glad to hear others have picked it up. It's just a bad choice vs Threshold which has basically become the top deck in Legacy. The Solidarity matchup also got dramatically worse with the addition of Remand, which can occasionally buy even more than 1 full turn if you played the spell with a Sandstone Needle, and is always a full turn setback at least. And as anyone that has tested it knows, sometimes Goblins just gets random wins that are accelerated by Ancient Tomb. Not to mention, I never liked the Deadguy Ale matchup because the easiest way to beat Wildfire is to attack its manabase. The last couple times I played the deck, I made a couple changes to the creature base that helped the Goblin and Threshold matchups somewhat. The 8 creatures were 3 Hellion, 3 Razormane Masticore, 1 Bosh, and 1 Titan with 2-3 Titans in the board to swap for Masticore or something. Masticore turned out fairly well since you often get 5 mana a full turn before you get 6, making it a common 3rd turn bomb and possible 2nd turn even. Bosh was amazing and a great Tooth target. If you get Bosh + Titan, you are almost guaranteed to win on the next turn even if they have a blocker (and even if it's pro red) considering you have the mana to use Bosh twice. I also agree that Worn Powerstone is the weakest card in the deck and should probably be replaced. Monolith would help you get fast Wildfires etc., but it would make it much harder to recover after the Wildfire. Crucible isn't bad since you're destroying your own lands so much and a couple of them are sucidial too. If you run Mox Diamond, Crucible would probably be an auto-include. Mox Diamond is an interesting choice which I never actually tested, mainly because I figured I would need more than 19 land in the deck to support it. It would be great to pitch extra Needles and Traitors sometimes though. I've also played with some number of Chalices main deck a couple times which of course is a killer card vs. Threshold and Solidarity, though completely irrelevant vs Goblins unless it's turn 1 and you play first, and is generally bad vs other random decks. So basically I don't like Wildfire's chances vs the whole top tier, but if you expect decks like Landstill and Rifter to be popular and you have tweaked the deck to fight Threshold and Goblins better, it might not be a terrible choice. There's always the surprise factor which is priceless in larger tournaments.

EDIT: Please don't play less than 4 Ancient Tomb. I would probably play 8 of them in here if I could.

[BiscuitVader]

Razormane Masticore
What if we used the origional?
It beats for four, usually on turn 2.

It can ping Thresholds guys out of the way, except for Mongoose, but your still bigger than it, even if it has Threshold....

It survives Wildfire, if you wait an extra turn (which shouldn't be a problem because you have a creature killing 4/4 in play...) it can Regen and escape from Wildfire. Leaving you with a beater in play, and them with nothing.


EDIT: I agree, Tomb can spell death when fighting agaisnt Goblins and Burn, but it is still amazing and 4 need to be run.
EDIT NUMBER TWO: I think this deck needs Magma Jet or another way of fixing your deck in it somewhere. Jet would help against both Threshold (before they hit 7 cards) and Goblins. As well as a bait for counters or a way to dig for the Decree against Solitary.

[BiscuitVader]

Actually I've totally given up on this deck, although I'm glad to hear others have picked it up. It's just a bad choice vs Threshold which has basically become the top deck in Legacy. The Solidarity matchup also got dramatically worse with the addition of Remand, which can occasionally buy even more than 1 full turn if you played the spell with a Sandstone Needle, and is always a full turn setback at least. And as anyone that has tested it knows, sometimes Goblins just gets random wins that are accelerated by Ancient Tomb. Not to mention, I never liked the Deadguy Ale matchup because the easiest way to beat Wildfire is to attack its manabase. The last couple times I played the deck, I made a couple changes to the creature base that helped the Goblin and Threshold matchups somewhat. The 8 creatures were 3 Hellion, 3 Razormane Masticore, 1 Bosh, and 1 Titan with 2-3 Titans in the board to swap for Masticore or something. Masticore turned out fairly well since you often get 5 mana a full turn before you get 6, making it a common 3rd turn bomb and possible 2nd turn even. Bosh was amazing and a great Tooth target. If you get Bosh + Titan, you are almost guaranteed to win on the next turn even if they have a blocker (and even if it's pro red) considering you have the mana to use Bosh twice. I also agree that Worn Powerstone is the weakest card in the deck and should probably be replaced. Monolith would help you get fast Wildfires etc., but it would make it much harder to recover after the Wildfire. Crucible isn't bad since you're destroying your own lands so much and a couple of them are sucidial too. If you run Mox Diamond, Crucible would probably be an auto-include. Mox Diamond is an interesting choice which I never actually tested, mainly because I figured I would need more than 19 land in the deck to support it. It would be great to pitch extra Needles and Traitors sometimes though. I've also played with some number of Chalices main deck a couple times which of course is a killer card vs. Threshold and Solidarity, though completely irrelevant vs Goblins unless it's turn 1 and you play first, and is generally bad vs other random decks. So basically I don't like Wildfire's chances vs the whole top tier, but if you expect decks like Landstill and Rifter to be popular and you have tweaked the deck to fight Threshold and Goblins better, it might not be a terrible choice. There's always the surprise factor which is priceless in larger tournaments.

EDIT: Please don't play less than 4 Ancient Tomb. I would probably play 8 of them in here if I could.
Can you post your list, with the Chalices and Bosh in it?

[The Grim Reaper]

Hello, here is a powerful variant of Wildfire which I believe has a good matchup against the top 3 decks in the format.

The Burning of Xinye
The Grim Reaper

Spells:
2x Burning of Xinye
2x Wildfire
4x Burning Wish
4x Trinisphere
4x Chalice of the Void

Win:
4x Sundering Titan
4x Crater Hellion

Sauce:
4x Gilded Lotus
4x Gruul Signet
4x Talisman of Impulse
4x Thran Dynamo

4x Sandstone Needle
4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
8x Mountain

SB
1x Burning of Xinye
1x Hull Breach
1x Life from the Loam
1x Recoup
1x Tooth and Nail
1x Devastation
4x Decree of Anihilation
4x Pyroclasm
1x Metagame slot

Card Choices

Wildfire: Kills all of the creatures in the top 3 decks (Solidarity, Goblins, Threshold) and destroys likely all of their lands, leaving you with tons of artifact mana to work with. Wildfire is simply unfair in this deck.

Chalice of the Void: A very underrated card. Cast this for 1 against Solidarity and you shut down 60% of their deck. Cast this for 1 against goblins and you shut down a lot of their deck. Cast this for 1 or 2 against Threshhold and shut down most of their deck. A must counter card. Would play 8 if possible.

Trinisphere: Wrecks Solidarity and Goblins if cast early. Strong against Threshhold. Resolve this after you cast a wildfire or cycle decree of anihilation and you win. It was banned in vintage for a reason.

Burning Wish: Needs no explanation. 2 mana tutor for everything this deck uses.

Sundering Titan: Complements Wildfire and Artifact mana and shuts down Threshhold. Easily castable by turn 4 or 5, sometimes as early as turn 2. A solid win condition which is synergestic with the rest of the deck.

Crater Hellion: Wildfires 4-8 with attatched beatstick. Again, this card wrecks both goblins and threshhold. Pay the echo cost if you need a beater or simply use it as another board sweeper. Very strong win condition.

Mana things: I personally have a bit of a hard on for Thran Dynamo, dont ask why. The signets / dynamos / talismans / lotuses provide the mana you need to still cast 6+ cost spells after you cast wildfire. This deck needs a lot of mana acceleration to sustain its grip of power. I would appreciate suggestions if there are better mana accelerants out there, but keep in mind they must be permanent. (ie no Lotus petal)

Sideboard: The SB contains 4x Pyroclasm to side in against goblins and 4x Decree of Anihilation to destroy control. A cycled decree spells good game against most control decks, especially when combined with 3sphere. I'm undecided on the last wish slot, and would like input on it.

Thanks for your time,

Grim.

[kirdape3]

With 36 mana sources, how many times do you simply lack relevant action? Sure, your spells cost 6+ mana in most cases, but in an opening hand of 7 you're asking for 2 or 3 at most relevant cards. Even then, in order to play those cards you often have to wait until about turn 3.

I would probably lower the overall cost of the deck, and add Arc-Slogger. That guy's utterly unfair, and will flat out mow down a board as well as Hellion can without the echo. Titan doesn't impress me very much either, but Covetous Dragon was the main finisher in the original German Dragon deck that won 1999 Worlds. I doubt you'll be winning anything without artifacts anyways.

[The Grim Reaper]

With 36 mana sources, how many times do you simply lack relevant action? Sure, your spells cost 6+ mana in most cases, but in an opening hand of 7 you're asking for 2 or 3 at most relevant cards. Even then, in order to play those cards you often have to wait until about turn 3.

I would probably lower the overall cost of the deck, and add Arc-Slogger. That guy's utterly unfair, and will flat out mow down a board as well as Hellion can without the echo. Titan doesn't impress me very much either, but Covetous Dragon was the main finisher in the original German Dragon deck that won 1999 Worlds. I doubt you'll be winning anything without artifacts anyways.


36 Mana sources has been good to me in testing. With the amount of mana denial running rampant in legacy you need the extra boost in order to cast the high casting cost spells. Alls I need is 2 or 3 relevant cards in my opening hand to win a game. Up until turn 3 of the game i'll be accelerating mana. Its quite easy to drop turn 1 or 2 chalice / Burning wish / Pyroclasm / 3sphere to slow my oponent down.

As for Arc-Slogger, hes very red intensive. Most games I can barely achieve the 2 red necessary to cast wildfire, let alone have more left over to kill creatures. What I like about Hellion is that he gets rid of everything NOW instead of later, which is essential against decks like Goblins.

I've thought about covetous dragon and might replace sundering titans with it. The only problem is that sundering titans are so easy to cast off artifact mana and they win faster than covetous dragon. Also, titans complement the land destruction element of the deck nicely.

[tsabo_tavoc]

Some Mox Diamond?
Actually I like Thran Dynamo more than Gilded Lotus, allowing your turn 2 Dynamo->3sphere, faster Titans.

[calosso]

Why aren't you playing worn powerstone?

[Nightmare]

I merged your thread with a similar one from the Create-a-New-Good-Deck contest due to their similarities. Hopefully reading through the thread will provide some insight on what has been tested before.

[The Grim Reaper]

Why aren't you playing worn powerstone?

I had worn powerstone in before and it doesn't compete with the other mana producers. I need the 8 signets/talismans for colored mana and gilded lotus and thran dynamo are much better than worn powerstone.

[Noman Peopled]

I just picked up the deck and am trying to implement the full number of Chalices in addition to three to four Trinispheres. I think it's advantageous not only in the combo matchup, but also generally at slowing the game down, giving me time to gather mana for your bombs even if my mana base is attacked. Another big plus is that not only can I cast Chalice at pretty much anything from 1 to 3 early if undisrupted, but I can efficiently disrupt a player who's attacking my massive artifact mana off land mana.
Furthermore, those cards' synergy with the rest of the deck is solid. It's also possible that this approach would deemphasise the importance of the pricey Armageddon effects, making it run on fewer mana or at least smoother with the existing mana base. One problem I see is that Chalice is most useful when cast early, when I really want to be playing artifact mana. It's very possible Chalice will slow down an opponent enough to at least remedy this at least against certain matchups. Practice makes perfect, I guess.

I will also try out four Grids in the side, which works well against anything with counters and the popular Stifle, not to mention Solidarity. Maybe Duplicant against turn-2-Akroma randomness.
I'll also play at least three Sprees in the side because I'm paranoid and don't like to be shut down by one card, even if it's not played often.

Any thoughts, especially on where I'm spectacularly wrong?

(The mana engine also could fit in a lot of other decks. I have a strictly experimental build cooking where the LftL engine provides draw, Wasteland protection, and damage (Seismic Ass and Rift), and the Armageddon effects are replaced by Thoughts of Ruin and Devastating Dreams). Both changes should reduce the minimum of mana the deck can run on smoothly, compared to the archetype discussed here, yet can use any amount of mana by simply casting LftL multiple times. Plus, several of the pricier cards used here are still in the side to get with BWish. But it did seem to be slower in preliminary testing.)

[Amoeba-]

Is it possible to take a Tron approach? Crop Rotation is fully legal in Legacy. Or is that straying too far from the decks intention.

[Lego]

Is it possible to take a Tron approach? Crop Rotation is fully legal in Legacy. Or is that straying too far from the decks intention.

The problem here is that this takes too long. You want to drop a first turn land, maybe land and Mox Diamond, and immediately be making a play. You don't want to wait until turn 3 to be finishing your tron and finally playing everything. At that point Solidarity is almost ready to combo off, and a single Remand will allow them to ready. Goblins has almost killed you. Threshold has gotten all of its counter magic online. You need to start hitting them hard from turn 1, and the Tron doesn't let you do that.

[Anarky87]

I was trying different versions of this deck out last night, but they all seemed to suffer the same problem: The deck really needs some method of draw. It's nice when you draw those busted hands that just play out like clockwork, but it's also not cool sitting there with pieces that aren't influencing the game in anyway, while your opponent has their way with you.

I don't know what kind of draw whether it's splashing blue for Thirst and Meditate, or Bottled Cloister or Uba Mask with Library or what have you. The deck really needs a way to find the right pieces or win condition to seal the game. I don't know how many times I Wildfired/Burned Xinye and was in control only to draw Tomb, Mountain, Trinisphere (2nd one), Mox Diamond, etc. Then the opponent would just get back in the game and I would have achieved nothing. I know it's all about 'playing your lock pieces right,' and I did. But the topdecks these kind of decks get is awful when it's all just random. That's why I think it needs some kind of draw...period.

I like the idea of Meditate because it works well with the deck's strategy. Draw 4 cards and your opponent takes another turn of saccing/tapping while you go unscathed. Wasn't there a U/R Stax deck that GreenOne split for first with at that tournament in Europe? Maybe we should try and find the details for that deck and see what it played.

[Son_Gozen]

Im trying this Deck with a U/G Splash and about carddraw what about playing Mind´s Eye??? In the splashed ersion i´m playing 4 Thirst For Knowledge and 2 Fact Or Fiction

[Son_Gozen]

Here´s my R/u/g List

// Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
1 Barbarian Ring
6 Mountain
2 Wasteland
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Maze of Ith

// Creatures
2 Covetous Dragon
2 Gurzigost

// Spells
2 Fact or Fiction
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Gilded Lotus
4 Mox Diamond
4 Wildfire
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Izzet Signet
3 Gruul Signet
2 Burning of Xinye
1 Scroll Rack

it´s playing pretty well thx to card draw and that stuff...

[Ch33bs]

Could a mono-red list do well with the new Akroma (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=38489&d=1168232623)?
I think this deck has better win condition now with the new Akroma. Though I still think it will probably still be lacking an effective draw engine but the amount of LD and stax like cards would make up for it I suppose.

[Noman Peopled]

As I mentioned earlier, I now have four Chalices and three Trinispheres. You just have to be careful not to drop Chalice for two if you need colored mana. I like it as an approach, because it gives you something to do even if your mana base is attacked. Stuff like Titans or Wildfire is only good with your artifact mana intact at least partly. It also helps against combo, which appears to be a weak matchup otherwise (maybe I've been plaing the deck wrong).
As for Akroma: in my experience, this deck doesn't really care what it wins with, as long as it's fast and has some synergy with the rest of the deck. In other words, big creatures that destroy lands or creatures. As much as I like Akroma in this deck, topdecking it in place of Thunder Dragon/Hellion when your opponent has a few Goblins out is desastrous. So yes, Akroma is better than Thunder Dragon as a straight-up win condition, but it's next to useless unless you have stabilized the board with other cards. Sure the deck depends on big mana - this is exactly why I want my win conditions to have a fast and lasting impact on the board.

I tried Titania's Song as a one-of, and for the reasons listed above it was awkward. Sometimes it's awesome, sometimes it does next to nothing (or is outright dangerous). You also never want to play it unless it will win you the game because, well, Wildfire with Titania's Song sucks. It doesn't wrath, it doesn't armageddon, it doesn't disrupt, and it doesn't solve problem permanents, so out it went.
As for draw, I tried Well of Knowledge. It's ideally played after Decree/Wildfire, when they don't have the mana to benefit first. After that, the card advantage is massive and next to unsurmountable. Of course, this relies on your mana denial plan working. The biggest disadvantage, however, is Pithing Needle (though the first one will always be aimed at Decree). But it also demands a severe mana commitment, which sucks when you have some mana but nothing spectacular. In other words, it helps the mid- to lategame out a lot, but doesn't help much to get you there if the need arises.
Now there is Hamonize, however, which is on-color. It's not very efficient and getting GG early can be difficult, so I'm testing different mana bases now. It's also wishable, for what it's worth ...

[Son_Gozen]

Well today we hab a big Legacy event and i was wondering if Wildfire is still playable with Ichorid and that kind of stuff. My friends tried to get me started at that tournament and i was thinking about, what deck i could play. I came to one decision: Wildfire! Gut is it still viable? Which colors do we need to play to keep up with Ichorid and co? And what cards are good for Wildfire?? Well we got Voltaic Key for our Gilded Lotus, Harmonize for carddraw. Any other cards for Wildfire???


this is how i'm trying to play it right now. I'm gonna start testing this week and i hope it works well..

// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
1 [OD] Barbarian Ring
6 [CHK] Mountain (3)
2 [TE] Wasteland
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [DK] Maze of Ith

// Creatures
2 [TO] Gurzigost
1 [ON] Exalted Angel

// Spells
1 [IN] Fact or Fiction
2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [MR] Gilded Lotus
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [P2] Wildfire
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [MR] Thirst for Knowledge
3 [GP] Izzet Signet
2 [GP] Gruul Signet
3 [P3] Burning of Xinye
1 [TE] Scroll Rack
1 [DIS] Research/Development
1 [P3] Capture of Jingzhou

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ON] Exalted Angel
SB: 1 [DIS] Research/Development
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 3 [WL] Pendrell Mists

[Nihil Credo]

Well today we hab a big Legacy event and i was wondering if Wildfire is still playable with Ichorid and that kind of stuff.
I have abandoned Wildfire.dec because of a big problem: Tarmogoyf. That freak survives a Burning of Xinye like nothing. 4RR no longer stops the beatings.

[Son_Gozen]

But there should be somethign that stops Tarmogoyf! Something other than Maze of Ith.. We could play Wrath Of God in Maindeck or even cooler with style: Overwhelming Forces. Takes time and mana but normally we should have that stuff.. Maybe we should play Voltaic Key and more mana artifacts like Thran Dynamo and go back to the old version of wildfire with TaN kill... I'm gonna try to make it viable again it takes a lot of time and investigation and testing to do it as good as possible...

[paragon22]

Wouldn't Coalition Relic be great in this deck?
Also, what about a white splash for Armageddon? A white splash could also give you Flagstones of Trokair, which I hear goes pretty well with Wildfire and Armageddon :wink:

[MasterC]

What about Devastation? It costs :1: more to play, and wrecks all Creatures and all lands!

[Son_Gozen]

Yes i thought about that because i got a playset. Its a cool thing i like Devastation.

Armageddon doesn't wreck creatures like Wildfire, Devastation oder Burning Of Xinye does... To wreck creatures with Armageddon you need a Tabernacle Effect.


Actually I'm working on a build with Devastation and Helldozers ^^ I'll update the new list(s) as soon as I'm finished with building them up and testing them...

I also think that Decree Of Annihilation is good against Landstill. But it'll need more testing..

[bruno_tiete]

I have abandoned Wildfire.dec because of a big problem: Tarmogoyf. That freak survives a Burning of Xinye like nothing. 4RR no longer stops the beatings.

Sad panda face.

I so wish goyf didnt have that freaking (+1).

[moOnsteak]

If I'd say Dragon Stompy as an aggro-chalice deck, so what if this wildfire build consider as control-chalice deck? based on Mr Sanguine Voyeur's great jon tom make a top 8 position with this deck, here's some cards that I thought have some potency to make a cut for this build :
1. Coalition Relic over Worn Powerstone?
2. Talisman of Impulse over Grull Signet?
3. Chalice of the Void or Trinisphere?
4. Well, Volcanic Hellion as an answer against goyf?

[Willoe]

1. Coalition Relic over Worn Powerstone?
2. Talisman of Impulse over Grull Signet?
3. Chalice of the Void or Trinisphere?
4. Well, Volcanic Hellion as an answer against goyf?

Interesting thoughts. Coalition Relic does add colored mana, which is pretty huge after all. The sad thing is that it can't produce two mana two turns in a row, which sucks with Crater Hellion.

Talisman? Why? Gruul Signet does the same, except that Talisman deals 1 damage to you.

Chalice of the Void AND Trinisphere if it's possible. Set at 1, it stops Dreadnought which seems like a HUGE problem to the deck if it resolves. And set at two, it only stops your own Signets, which is pretty irrelevant when it also stops so many other things.

But we also need a problem to deal with Tombstalker. Goyf is taken care off by Hellion and Titan. But how do we deal with Tombstalker? Inferno? Too costy?

[Peter_Rotten]

A massive Necro, but let's allow it in light of this report:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=266152#post266152

[idraleo]

If your problem is Goyf an 5 thoughtness fatties, why not run 4 Volcano Hellion and (or not) Stuffy Doll? Doll is synergic with Wildfire too, and stops each creature except for Terravore...

The "combo" allows you to did a surprising 1 turn kill if opponet did some fetches or Forces, i thought it could give something more to the deck...

[moOnsteak]

Interesting thoughts. Coalition Relic does add colored mana, which is pretty huge after all. The sad thing is that it can't produce two mana two turns in a row, which sucks with Crater Hellion.

Coalition Relic can do that after it added counter, and I consider it is better than comes into play tapped. .


Talisman? Why? Gruul Signet does the same, except that Talisman deals 1 damage to you.
Talisman can produce mana itself, Signet can't. .


But we also need a problem to deal with Tombstalker. Goyf is taken care off by Hellion and Titan. But how do we deal with Tombstalker? Inferno? Too costy?
Volcanic Hellion (not Crater) can solve this problem. .

Also I like the idea to use Stuffy Doll, really good synergy. .

[MTG Guru]

Here's a similiar deck I've been testing for the past year. It utilizes Stuffy Doll as well as a few other "gems".

// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [FE] Dwarven Ruins
7 [US] Mountain (3)
4 [U] Taiga

// Creatures
4 [TSP] Stuffy Doll
4 [SH] Mogg Maniac

// Spells
3 [4E] Inferno
3 [PLC] Shivan Meteor
3 [PT] Fire Tempest
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [JU] Burning Wish
3 [MR] Gilded Lotus
3 [MM] Heart of Ramos
3 [7E] Fire Diamond

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [4E] Inferno
SB: 1 [PLC] Shivan Meteor
SB: 1 [PT] Fire Tempest
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 2 [TO] Overmaster
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [B] Tranquility
SB: 1 [PS] Hull Breach
SB: 1 [JU] Crush of Wurms
SB: 1 [6E] Hammer of Bogardan
SB: 1 [PT] Devastation

This list is extremely fast and consistent and often pulls off turn 4 wins. I highlighted the cards of interest in bold.

I found that Shivan Meteor + Stuffy Doll/Mogg Maniac can deal massive amounts of damage as well being able to deal with a Phyrexian Dreadnought if need be.

Don't ridicule the 7 mana board sweepers in the deck, I can get them out by the fourth turn latest. And the synergy with Boardsweepers like Inferno and Stuffy Doll/Maniac, is simply undeniable. I haven't tested this deck in years and it's fun to see people out there, that share similiar ideas.

Ignore the Inferno in the wishboard, this is obviously an old list.

[xsockmonkeyx]

So with all these big artifacts is there a good reason not to run Voltaic Key (besides Chalice)? With a Dynamo in play, Key turns into a CIPT Sol Ring that you can still squeeze out 1 mana the turn you play it. With a lotus in play, its lotus petal the turn you play it, and double petal your next turn.

Consider this play: turn 1 Key so you have it in play by the time you get 4 mana. Then you drop a Dynamo, it actually produces 1 more mana instead of sinking it. It also might make Wornpower Stone more useful/playable, who know? Maybe Icy Manipulator in an alternate universe. Speeds up Cursed Scroll.

Besides the obvious untapping of manas, you can also give your giant robots vigilance if thats a good thing.

Also, there is a good chance that there is some busted combo you can abuse the key with out there, but nobody's found it yet.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

A few thoughts from testing;

Temporal Aperture has been good. It functions as a sort of mana acceleration and card draw that can dig you out of a rough spot when your hand isn't good enough. With this and the heart of the cards, you can't possibly lose.

Form of the Dragon has been surprisingly good. A Moat with repeating powerful removal often wins games. The only thing it doesn't handle is burn and a ready to attack Tombstalker. Also, a Form of the Dragon followed by an Aperture fueled Decree will pretty much beat any deck in the format.

Volcano Hellion has been costing too much life for a removal spell. Crater Hellion is just better by too much of a margin.

Key was worse then a mana artifact when I needed it and only good when my mana was fine.

Regrowth is the best sideboard card. It's so useful when things go wrong, you need to build your mana base, or you just need another sweeper in the late game.

[Spectör]

So do you have any new list with aperture and form? What did you cut for them?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

For all intents and purposes, Wildfire equates to any mix of Wildfires and Burning of Xinyes.

Wildfire GLaDOS x01.02

// Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Sandstone Needle
8 Mountain

// Creatures
4 Sundering Titan
2 Crater Hellion

// Spells
2 Gruul Signet
3 Worn Powerstone
4 Gilded Lotus
4 Thran Dynamo
3 Burning Wish
4 Wildfire
3 Trinisphere
2 Decree of Annihilation
2 Devastation
3 Temporal Aperture
2 Talisman of Impulse
2 Form of the Dragon

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Decree of Annihilation
SB: 1 Devastation
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 2 Rough//Tumble
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Tooth and Nail
SB: 1 Recoup
SB: 1 Hull Breach
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 Regrowth

Next, I'm going to fit a Titan's Revenge/Demonfire/Kaervek's Torch in the sideboard and see what else works in place of Crater Hellion.

[Spectör]

Playing the deck I noticed the interaction between 3-Sphere and Temporal Aperture. Don't you have to play 3 colorless if you want to play your top card?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Yeah. Trinisphere is good enough to be played even with the disharmony, but that's the primary reason I went down to three.

[Spectör]

I paying 8 Mana really worth one card? What's with Bottled Cloister, it would also help against discard though it might be risky.


Or even Moonring Mirror? At least it'd be fun...

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Eight mana isn't that bad considering you get to play it for free, and most of the cards cost at least five mana normally. Paying eight for a Sundering Titan isn't that bad. I often hold back Trinisphere when I have an active Aperture.

Bottled Cloister seems lackluster considering Aperture. It's only a one time investment, but it's not free spells every turn.

Moonring Mirror does very little. It fights discard, but that's not why Eva Green was difficult. Black decks with green or white are difficult because of how effectively they can destoy your mana.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Is the green splash really worth it? I would think white would be better as it allows you to wish for Decree of Justice (fuckin sick in this deck), Armageddon, Goyf removal, etc. Hell, in a deck like this even a card like Catastrophe could find a home! But really I think the SB needs 3-4x Pitning Needle. Wasteland and Deed are not good to this deck. Even Engineered Explosives can give it problems. Maybe something like:

4x Chalice
3x Needle
1x Pyroclasm
1x Armageddon
1x Devastation
1x Decree of Justice
1x Shattering Spree
1x Cleanfall
1x Morningtide
1x Path of Peace

In the main I would almost prefer to run Armageddon over the Decree since the Decree can't be countered (it can be Stifled though right?) it will probably make the cut before Armageddon. Also, just because this is one of my all time favotire cards I will mention it, back in standard I used to run a R/W Wildfire deck with Firemane Angel in it. That card proved to be fastastic, the life gain was very useful and for some reason no one ever remembered it had first strike, plus it recurs late game! Another card that I used to run was Shard Phoenix. I would honestly prefer to run the Phoenix over the Hellion simply because it is cheaper, it recurs, and basically all the dudes you have to kill have 2 toughness (Gobbos and Elves) and Hellion won't kill Goyf usually. Also I really like Chalice in the main over Trinisphere. Just some suggestions. I really like this deck and am trying to make it the best it can be. Thoughts?

EDIT: I just thought about this, Shard Phoenix can attack when Form of the Dragon is in play and eliminates all complications between Hellion and Form. And if Form dies while Phoenix is in play you may be able to live by destroying their attacking creatures.

[Carabas]

What do you think of Wake of Destruction (http://magiccards.info/ud/en/99.html) as a sideboard card v. monocolored decks? I'm thinking the triple-red might be a bit of a problem, but I can see it being worthwhile.

[Willoe]

What do you think of Wake of Destruction (http://magiccards.info/ud/en/99.html) as a sideboard card v. monocolored decks? I'm thinking the triple-red might be a bit of a problem, but I can see it being worthwhile.

You destroy enough lands without Wake, and I really don't see why monocolored decks should be a problem. It does have a possibility of destroying multiple factories, though. But they'll get destroyed by Decree of Annihilation as well...

[Illissius]

Have you considered Null Brooch?

[Willoe]

Nice idea. How about my p.t. pet card, Myr Incubator, or does that dissynergize too much with Wildfire? I mean, it will give you a sweet outlet to Phyrexian Dreadnought (you chumpblock that fucker) and goyf (you'll chumpblock them, too), in fact, I'm serious about this suggestion even though it sounds like shit.

[xsockmonkeyx]

With Trinisphere in play Temporal Aperture is just a crappy Elkin Bottle.

Wildfire/Lotus = 8 mana w/ Trinisphere, draw with Elkin Botlle = 6+3=9
Dynamo= 8 mana w Trinisphere, draw with Elkin Botlle = 4+3=7
Worn Powerstone= 8 Mana w Aperture, draw with Elkin Botlle = 3+3=6
Signet= 8 Mana w Trinisphere, draw with Elkin Botlle = 3+3=6
Chalice= 8 Mana w Trinisphere, draw with Elkin Botlle = 3+2x where x>2 (x=2, mana=7, how does this work with Aperture?)

The only cards you gain significantly is Devastation (saves 2 mana) and a hardcast Decree (5 mana), which you cant cycle with Aperture. With Bottle you can still cycle I believe.

[Willoe]

Fuck DreadStill:

Willoe taps Thran Dynamo
Willoe taps Talisman of Impulse
Willoe taps Gilded Lotus
Willoe plays Form of the Dragon from Hand
<Willoe> Ok?
<System> Player Lost
<Willoe> Hahaha

Sweet tech. Form of the Dragon > Format

EDIT: I was on 7 and he had a Dreadnought out. Before that, he had FoWed both Trinisphere and Sundering Titan.

[Nihil Credo]

It's neat how Elkin Bottle mills the card away if it's crap you don't want to play, while with Temporal Aperture you end up drawing it next turn anyway (unless you activate it again in your upkeep, but that trick only works once).

[Willoe]

I'm apparently very lucky with Aperture. I really think it's got some potential, but it's extremely luck-defined. But that's the fun, but I'm concerned that we can't actually risk that. In two games, it used it five times and I've revealed:

Sundering Titan
Devastation
Sundering Titan
City of Traitors
Wildfire

That is really lucky, and the revealing of the second titan resulted in yet another Player Lost.

I'd play Bottled Cloister over Aperture, but maybe that's just me. Or possibly remove them entirely and put in 2 more Form of the Dragons. I recently fell in love with that card. No card in the format wins more games than that card (or so I think).
Granted, it sucks against combo and burn, but against damage, nothing can really kill you except a Morphling.

About the creatures. Is Akroma, Angel of Fury worth testing? I just lost because of Swords To Plowshares. Bad times.

This deck is definetely worth testing out against the DTB's and see how it performs. It matchups great against a lot of decks, and winning the MWS tournament might be telling us something. That can also have something to do with the pilot :wink:

The great strength about this deck is that your opponent will have hard times choosing whether they will counter your mana sources or your threats. Of course, also because it dodges Counterbalance, Chalice and Trinisphere.

Additionally, it's extremely fun to blow up the board then watching opponent go bananas when you HARDCAST a Titan.

It would be freaking awesome if we could include Darksteel Colossus in a Legacy deck. It's not as large as a Dreadnought, but it certainly holds back damage from it although this deck has its limits regarding casting spells. 11 mana might be a bit too prohibitive.

[Xurcks]

Same thing here with the Aperture , only you change to 3 Sundering Titans and 2 Wildfires in 5 uses. The only deck I have used Darksteel Colossus , really love this card , was in a control artifact deck with blue that used trinisphere , COTV and Show and Tell to put the big guy in play. It never lost to painter combo , ever ^^

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Have you considered Null Brooch?No.Not saying anything good or bad about it, just haven't thought of it. I have a lot of things I want to test out.
With Trinisphere in play Temporal Aperture is just a crappy Elkin Bottle..Then don't cast Trinisphere? It's not that hard to survive with out it, especally when you can spew out two game breaking spells a turn.

Darksteel Colossus cost too much. You should never depend on Aperture when choosing what cards to play. Anything costing nine or more can't be counted on.

[Xurcks]

What about Scroll Rack in the deck ? It can help find what you need at the moment and for a low cost , be it mana or something to deal with a problematic permanent in play.

[idraleo]

Why don' t add Greater Gargadon to get an huge finisher? Gargadon have amazing sinergyies with Wildfire and, moreover, with Decree of Annihilation. Sweep off boards and hands and get a 9/7 with haste on the board seems GG against the environment ^^

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Greater Gargadon is just a 9/7 Haste. That's not worth your board position or deck space. Every other threat that's usable attacks either your opponent's creatures or lands. Sundering Titan wrecks mana bases on his way in and out. Crater Hellion takes out everything shy of Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker. Form of the Dragon is Moat, a fast clock, and removal.

[Rush]

In your variant Sanquine, have you ever tried Life from the Loam.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Then don't cast Trinisphere? It's not that hard to survive with out it, especally when you can spew out two game breaking spells a turn.

Dammit, why must you use logic? I was this close to getting someone out there to shuffle up an Elkin Bottle. Speaking of two spells a turn, Key untaps Aperture. Just saying.

[Piceli89]

This deck seems to perform well in the theorical supposition, but can somebody tell me how to win against deck packing a good amount of counters, paired with LD ( wasteland) and fast beating ( Tarmogoyf)? I mean, i played this deck and always noticed that an expert opponent allows us to create a huge manabase with all the mana-artifacts, then just limits himself to counters the key spells while he carries on beating savagely, and the game is just gone. Usually, i managed to build lot of mana, but it always happened that the decisive spells to cast in hand were 2, maximum 3 , and got always countered / discarded just before being played. Moreover, the deck seems to need an early protection against those deck with an excessive fast clock along with a discard suite ( Pikulas), since we suffer A LOT and sometimes the mana curve gets fucked if the lands get wasted / sinkholed or just w dont' manage to drop the signets or the powerstones( which are, in any case, slow ).
The answer i want to get is: is this deck really worth playing in a format so fast-clocked and full of insidious strategies ? I really don't know if the strategy "lose 3-4 turns creating a thousand mana and then blast everything with a bomb" works even in this format... Maybe in t2 or even in extended with tooth and nail decks, but here...
Perhaèps the deck should run some form of "protection" against counters or specific threats ( discard, LD).. But what red/ artifacts can offer us ??
And the last question: how do we face an artifact-hate sideboard ? Even a "humble " ancient grudge or a trygon predator is really a pain.l

[danyul]

In my (limited) experience with the deck I have found that I really dont mind counterspells. I kinda get giddy when I come up against a control deck. This deck runs alot of redundant threats and I've found that almost every red card is a bomb, must-counter. You just run blue decks out of answers. Also, if you get a Trinisphere or two in your opening grip they usually throw everything they can at it which opens the way for other nasty spells. Just cycle a decree and laugh at their silly blue spells.

You asked if this deck is worth playing in a format with so many insidious strategies. I don't see what you are so afraid of. This deck is so much more "insidious" than most other decks. You laugh at Counterbalance. You cycle Decree and laugh at control, or just throw shit at them until something sticks (and whatever sticks, it will be devastating, as all your spells wreck them). Wildfire and Crater Hellion take care of any opposing teams. You just blow their shit up and stop them from playing Magic. It's so cheaty. Maybe I'm just having better luck with the deck. I've mostly been testing against randoms on MWS and a couple friends. Who knows?

I have noticed that a turn two Dreadnought can be pretty stupid, but I guess that's the case for most decks not running StP or FoW. I tossed a Shivan Meteor into the SB for this situation but Chalice@1 is probably the better strategy here.

Maybe my enthusiasm for the deck is clouding my judgment here. I see what you are saying about the disruption that Eva Green style decks throw at you, but I think that style of deck gives everybody problems. If I remember correctly, it was an Eva Green deck that knocked Sanguine Voyeur out of the Source tourney. And against crazy artifact hate out of the sb...yeah, I dunno. Put your faith in the cycled Decree?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Dammit, why must you use logic? I was this close to getting someone out there to shuffle up an Elkin Bottle. Speaking of two spells a turn, Key untaps Aperture. Just saying.As strong and cool as a play that is, it requires eleven mana to operate. That's very win more.
In your variant Sanquine, have you ever tried Life from the Loam.No, but I can't see it being too much of a use. It would be dead most of the time main deck and it's not as good as Regrowth as a wish target. Lands are the least important part of the mana base in the long run. The best thing they allow you to do is to play mana artifacts.
This deck seems to perform well in the theorical supposition, but can somebody tell me how to win against deck packing a good amount of counters, paired with LD ( wasteland) and fast beating ( Tarmogoyf)? I mean, i played this deck and always noticed that an expert opponent allows us to create a huge manabase with all the mana-artifacts, then just limits himself to counters the key spells while he carries on beating savagely, and the game is just gone.A problem with that strategy is the number of key spells you run. If you have more 'must counters' thaen they have counters, you can push though with sheer force. Look at my Source Tourny list for example;


// Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Sandstone Needle
8 Mountain

// Creatures
4 Sundering Titan
4 Crater Hellion

// Spells
4 Gruul Signet
4 Worn Powerstone
4 Gilded Lotus
4 Thran Dynamo
4 Burning Wish
2 Wildfire
2 Burning of Xinye
4 Trinisphere
2 Decree of Annihilation
2 Devastation

Thresh needs to counter Sundering Titan, Wildfire, Trinisphere, Devastation, Decree of Annihilation, and sometimes Crater Hellion. That's eighteen spells not counting Decree, which they often can counter. Thresh typically runs only eight, sometimes twelve counterspells.

[Rush]

Just throwing this out there, but have any of you tried Tooth w/ Kiki + Lightning Crafter for an instant kill w/ Tooth and Nail? For that matter, how many of you have actually tried Tooth in the deck?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Just throwing this out there, but have any of you tried Tooth w/ Kiki + Lightning Crafter for an instant kill w/ Tooth and Nail?I've thought about running a Kiki for the superior sweeping of two Crater Hellions or destrucion of two Titans, but he[?] is too weak on his own to be run. If you resolve an entwined Tooth, you're likely to win anyway. A one sided Wildfire plus thirteen power worth of creatures is kind of a big deal.
For that matter, how many of you have actually tried Tooth in the deck?I wouldn't run it main deck, but as a wish target, it's golden. It's a wishable threat that will end the game upon resolution.

[Rush]

Have you tried Crucible? I think it would be awesome in this deck.

[xsockmonkeyx]

As strong and cool as a play that is, it requires eleven mana to operate. That's very win more.

You were the one that mentioned playing 2 game breaking cards in a turn, no? How did you plan on doing this with less than 11 mana?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

You were the one that mentioned playing 2 game breaking cards in a turn, no? How did you plan on doing this with less than 11 mana?Well played, however Key would be replacing a mana artifact, making eleven even harder to reach.

Have you tried Crucible? I think it would be awesome in this deck.It falls in the same category as Life from the Loam, but can't be wished for.*

Is there any way to make that sentence not end with a preposition and still be readable? "For which it cannot be wished?" That won't do.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Touche. I have played this deck in the past but have yet to see the latest in subterfuge. I trust your judgment, but Im still gonna fuck around with Key.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

By all means, test the Key, try to prove me wrong. I was unimpressed, but you may have different results. An obscure combo may make the card a good deal better, I'm going to see if there are any.

EDIT: Oh hey, Key works pretty well with the 'new' wording of Time Vault.

EDIT II: Disregard that.

[Rush]

I think Crucible would be more useful than Powerstone in a number of situations.

[moOnsteak]

I think Crucible would be more useful than Powerstone in a number of situations.

Unless you can't cast wildfire, hellion, and many more bombs with cruicible that powerstone can. .

[Sanguine Voyeur]

I think Crucible would be more useful than Powerstone in a number of situations.Powerstone is always acceleration, Crucible can only net you mana with City juggling or after you've wiped the board.

[Rush]

A the same time, though, if you don't wipe the board, you don't have much of a chance of winning any way. Additionally, I'm not a fan of Powerstone because of it's comes into play tapped ability.

[moOnsteak]

and I still need to compare between Powerstone or Relic. .
both has :3: cc, potentially add 2 mana. .

[Piceli89]

Wow, just fought against a controllish threshold with intuition+ loam and scored 2-0. Titans are the shit in this deck, and the bombs are really hurting, especially Decree of Annihilation.
I'll give it a second chance.

[Piceli89]

There's just one thing i Don't unerstnad: is burning wish really necessary ? I mean, the main need i had testing the deck was to grab a mana source or a counter/ protection, but since there 's no one of those at a sorcery speed and red or green, i found it to be suboptimal... yes, i can grab a total destroyer or a spree or pyroclasm.. but for the rest ? Is it really worth running ? I'd prefer to dedicate those 3-4 slots to other threats/manasources and to get a more "unified" Sb in order to side in several copies of the same card ( and not all as 1 -ofs) against the usual shits.
What do u think about ?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Burning Wish is powerful for its ability to be what you need it. It can be a threat with Tooth, a sweeper with Devastation, Enchantment/Artifact removal with Hull Breach, or help you regain any thing with Regrowth. However, that's not to say that the wish board itself doesn't need improvement. If you go by what I just said, you could cut it to Tooth, Regrowth, Devestation, Decree of Annihilation, and Hull Breach and be left with ten slots that you can use for combo/graveyard hate and possibly Pyroclasms.

Also, if you are facing an opponent with counter spells, Decree of Annihilation and Trinisphere can be your saviors. They only have so many Forces.

[Piceli89]

Sanguine, can you suggest me some sorceries that are useful for the aforementioned purposes ? I can't find any red/green sorcery which stops combo, cleans/ prevents filled yards or breaks counterspells! At this point, I'm seriously thinking to get another colour for those purposes.. Maybe white can do something ( there was a sorcery which emptied the yard and you gained 1 life pint for any creature or something similar).. but it doesn't stop combo, nor fights counterspells, being white a friend color to blue.

Boh...

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Counter spells can be slowed by Trinisphere and forbade with a cycled Decree. I've beaten counter spells by running into them with every thing I've got. Thresh typically runs eight counter spells and you run more then eight 'must counters.' You can overwhelm them.

In the sideboard against graveyard oriented decks, four Crypts backed with massive amounts of sweepers may win the game, but I'm yet to test it.

I also haven't played against Storm, but I'm assuming that Trinisphere followed with a maelstrom of Armageddons should by you enough time to drop a few threats.

[Piceli89]

I get the point against combo, but are really 3 trinispheres enough to beat it ? after Sb, chalice cna give us a huge hand, but it seems that they manage to find always a way to go off. And Land destruction is almost useless against them ( except for FTendrils), because it's too slow ( usually I reach Wildfire at turn 3 if everything works well) and the broken-speed combos don't rely very much on lands ( Belcher, Spanish Inquisition..). And solidarity has repeal sb, which is hurting a lot, even if in this MU destroying lands is cool ( hoping that they don't Force Of Will those spells and combo immediately after..).
I didn't test ichorid yet, but therapy is hard, i guess.
At this point, i thinbk that some duresses may be taken into account. Seriously.

[idraleo]

I did some test but i' ve been some time fucked up by Moat. As i' ve been, i start thinking that Bogardan Hellkite won' t be so bad for the deck. It keeps Goyf Handed, it did pretty well against goblin (if we survive to hardcast it) and wen Form get the board is an huge blocker. I liked the interaction of Voltaick Key and add it to the mainboard to start test about it. That' s what i'm running now:

// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [MM] Sandstone Needle
8 [CS] Snow-Covered Mountain

// Creatures
3 [DS] Sundering Titan
3 [TSP] Bogardan Hellkite
1 [US] Crater Hellion

// Spells
4 [UD] Thran Dynamo
4 [MR] Gilded Lotus
4 [9E] Wildfire
3 [SC] Form of the Dragon
3 [MR] Talisman of Impulse
2 [PT] Devastation
3 [DS] Trinisphere
3 [B] Basalt Monolith
2 [SC] Decree of Annihilation
3 [US] Voltaic Key
2 [MR] Talisman of Indulgence

[xsockmonkeyx]

Testing this thing last night. I was having a lot of problems with my opponent simply not playing like an idiot by overextending, and forcing to Wildfire/Devastation petty stuff just to save my ass. Goyf/Mongoose/Basically any creature in the format <3cc + him holding back 1 land was pretty much all he had to do to win. Not exactly hard.

I was getting kinda frustrated, so I threw in a couple Icy Manipulators just to mix things up. Holy shit! What a difference! With and Icy in play it forced him to commit to extending to further the game play (more creatures to get around tap target creature, play an extra land to get around Icy Rishadan Port). So when the bomb went off, the inherently went off for more, which was pretty awesome. But here's the fun part: after clearing the board it now takes an extra land and creature to get going cause Ill just tap him down into oblivion. This buys like 3-4 more turns and forces him to keep 2 lands in hand, and extend further than he wants to in order to play the game again.

Voltaic Key + Icy Manipulator is godly.

Temporal Aperture was epic fail.

@idraleo: im going to try out Basalt Monolith and Hellkite. That list looks a lot like what I was trying to do, and is remarkably similar. Also, the correct post count number is 9001.

[Xurcks]

I'm using Thunder Dragon in place of Bogardan Hellkite. What do you think of it?

[Spectör]

Just thought of an alternative for Crater Hellion and Chandra Nalaar came to mind.
I came when I noticed the interaction with hardcasted Decrees.

Also Cloister > Aperture. Cloister is the better bad card.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Testing this thing last night. I was having a lot of problems with my opponent simply not playing like an idiot by overextending, and forcing to Wildfire/Devastation petty stuff just to save my ass. Goyf/Mongoose/Basically any creature in the format <3cc + him holding back 1 land was pretty much all he had to do to win. Not exactly hard.I didn't have that problem once the entire Source tourney or in any of my testing. They often had one threat out, then I swept it away along with their one or two land. I kept doing that as many times as needed until I cold do that, except with a threat attached. Trinisphere makes sure they have to have out three land to do anything.
Temporal Aperture was epic fail.Really? I've had a great time with Aperture. It allows you to suddenly top deck your self out of several situations even when you are short on mana.
I'm using Thunder Dragon in place of Bogardan Hellkite. What do you think of it?I haven't tested Hellkite, but Thunder Dragon is worse then Crater Hellion. For one more mana, you deal one less damage. The taking out Tarmogoyfs is worth the echo.
Just thought of an alternative for Crater Hellion and Chandra Nalaar came to mind.
I came when I noticed the interaction with hardcasted Decrees.I'm running Chandra in the Salvation Tournament. It's been useful and curves out well in testing. It fills a similar role as Form of the Dragon, but less back breaking and easier to cast.

[xsockmonkeyx]

It allows you to suddenly top deck your self out of several situations even when you are short on mana.

Maybe if youre the worlds greatest luck sack. I understand you have the capability to crawl out of situations, but the chances that you hit something relevant is pretty low, especially with the density of mana in the deck. There were some games I was even using key for like 2 Apertures a turn, sink 11 mana, flip over city of traitors, talisman, and scoop shortly afterward. Its very powerful but its not a good card to rely on in a pinch.


Trinisphere makes sure they have to have out three land to do anything.

Oh, so now Trinisphere is always in play again? Well now you can make it 4 lands.

[Carabas]

Aperture has landed me a significant amount of lands when testing the deck. If you ran 3-4 fetchlands, it might be better, but from my testing, it has not been very good at finding me cards that I could use. With significant mana, would Staff of Domination find a place in its stead at all?

[idraleo]

Probably Icy Manipulator fits better in the 2x slot, it slows opponent gameplan and could handle Goyf for a mere mana, and moreover it is fairly better if we play Voltaic Key.

[moOnsteak]

Probably Icy Manipulator fits better in the 2x slot, it slows opponent gameplan and could handle Goyf for a mere mana, and moreover it is fairly better if we play Voltaic Key.

Stuffy Doll did this job better. .

[idraleo]

Stuffy did well but scoops easily by StP, Icy ManipuLator + Voltaic Key handles 2 Goyf at the same time or a Goyf + a land or 2 lands.

[Illissius]

This is probably not a new idea -- neither of the cards are -- but to update the deck for the goyfmat, what about simply taking the old version and doing a 1-for-1 swap of Wildfires for Devastation and Hellions for Forms? Both of these cost one mana more than before -- how big of a problem is that?

[xsockmonkeyx]

I havent had any problems with 1 colorless more for Devastation. The RRR of Form has been kinda, meh? I still need more testing to see if it's playable despite the prohibitive cost (power vs. actually getting it into play).

[Illissius]

It only costs :r: more than Hellion (and doesn't have echo). Coalition Relic over Powerstone would help if the :r::r::r: is the problem (and it also casts Tooth).

[idraleo]

Playing Tooth means maindeck Burning Wish. As far as it goes, Burning seems useless compared by a good redundance of other spells. Coalition Relic did well, but have you tryed Basalth Monolith combined to Voltaic Key? It speeds so much the deck and let you feel as you' re playing with 7-8 Thran Dynamo.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Only one more red (or colored mana) is huge in this deck.

Voltaic key + Monolith is awesome

[idraleo]

Going on with testing, i'm pretty sure that those deck have to run Starstorm as well: it punishes goblin at istant speed and its awesome against dredge too, i'm sure that i'll test some 2-3 off maindeck.


@xsockmonkeyx: how is your Icy Manipulator tests going? I don' t had time t test they, maybe u could say something more relevant?

[Xurcks]

I like Starstorm too in this deck , as i sugested in the thread of Sanguine Voyeur Top 8 report , but as SB material. In my Burning Wish list , I splitted Rough/Tumble and Starstorm 1/3 in the SB , for wishing matters.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I doubt anyone remembers this, but I had been tweaking around a version of Wildfire on my own a few years ago called The Big Machine. There are some elements of that list that were questionable (Staff of Domination, the Ensnaring Bridge/Grafted Skullcap or Bottled Cloister combo), but one of the things I really found to be quite strong was Bosh, Iron Golem. Basically, I found it was very rarely the case that I couldn't kill immediately after untapping with Bosh, with lots of mana and 3-5 mana artifacts to fling (and Bosh himself, of course). Sundering Titan obviously offers a lot of utility, and I wouldn't cut that, but I think Bosh might be running over, say, Crater Hellion.

[idraleo]

Yes Bosh is nuts, moreover because it is by itself a win condition that dodges Moat. Btw, i thought it could be no more than 1 off because nowdays Hellkyte did a similar work, and thanks to the flash ability is a nice threat to did on your opponent EOT to have him waste some Forces or Counterspells.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

I've tested Hellkite, it was lack luster. The five damage and small body wasn't worth the cost.
Going on with testing, i'm pretty sure that those deck have to run Starstorm as well: it punishes goblin at istant speed and its awesome against dredge too, i'm sure that i'll test some 2-3 off maindeckStarstorm requres too much mana for my liking. I'm not willing to pay four mana for a Pyroclasm, five mana for a Firespout, or six mana for a non-land sweeping Wildfire.
@xsockmonkeyx: how is your Icy Manipulator tests going? I don' t had time t test they, maybe u could say something more relevant?His ramblings have convinced me to test them and Key, Monolith, and Manipulator have been sick. Monolith is actually decent in this deck on its own, and being able to make Key a Sol Ring more consistently makes it even better. Icy Manipulator is great at stalling until you dig up some thing to force you out of the situation.
In my Burning Wish list , I splitted Rough/Tumble and Starstorm 3/1 in the SBYou know that Starstorm is an instant and can't be wished for, right?
...Bosh, Iron Golem...I'm not running Hellion any more. I've replaced it with a combination of Icy Manipulators and Form of Dragons for now. The extra mana from Key combined with the stalling allows me to get the mana or sweepers that I need. Bosh seems interesting, it can chuck stuff for removal or end the game much faster then Hellion, Titan, or Form of the Dragon.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Man, is 5/5 small now? What a wacky power curve. Stupid fucking Wizards.

[idraleo]

I' m finding some trouble on handling Loams and Survival based decks. They simply owns us without chances, how did you face those match ups?

Talking on Hellkite, i don' t see how it could be considered small, as it kills Tombstalker and keeps himself alive, or simply sweep the board from some goblin or did a threat on a */10 creature. Most important, his istant speed makes it perfect for an unexpected removal or to did some bluff in our opponent EOT. Manipulators seems to work well, so i thought i'm gonna try a couple of them in my maindeck.

[danyul]

His ramblings have convinced me to test them and Key, Monolith, and Manipulator have been sick. Monolith is actually decent in this deck on its own, and being able to make Key a Sol Ring more consistently makes it even better. Icy Manipulator is great at stalling until you dig up some thing to force you out of the situation.

I haven't had much luck with Voltaic Key/ Basalt Monolith. I always manage to draw one and not the other. Maybe that's just my bad luck.

Icy has been good as well. I'm running 2 in place of the Temporal Apertures, which were showing me lands too often to be impressive.

Bosh has been great. Like IBA said, if you untap with him you can usually win on the spot. I'm running two MD.

Sanguine, do you have a current list we could look at? My list hasn't deviated too much from your original Source tourney list other than the changes above. Most of the new cards I have been testing have been lackluster and I'm sure your testing has been more thorough than mine.


I' m finding some trouble on handling Loams and Survival based decks. They simply owns us without chances, how did you face those match ups?

Could you give more details? I haven't had too much trouble against these types of decks.

[idraleo]

Probably i were unlucky by myself, but against Loam i was overwhelmed by Seismic Assault, i got no answer preboard or sideboard to that card. Then my strategy was breaked up by theyr Moxes, wich let they restart if they got a mere Loam in theyr graveyard. It is frustrating to did some Devastation or to cycle a Decree then saw your opponent topdeck a mere land, dredge Loam and then restart to play. Moreover, they got Burning Wish to Shattering Spree, wich punish us. I always side in 4 Chalices to did they on 0 and 2, but unfortunately Loam players could side in Explosives and vanish our sideboard. I'm seriously starting to think on Needle on SB. Even that, i figured this before start running Icy: with an Icy into play, or 2, i thought that this MU will be more favorable because we could tap theyr Moxes or lands during theyr upkeep.

Against survival i find some problem only when they did a SotF on the board (notice, obv always on turn 2), they start go to Genesis and Ingot Chewer or Harmonic Sliver, then they scoop one mana artifact each turn, slowing or gameplan and simoultaneously going on Anger and few other threats. The game often ends in 3-4 turns when they starts this way. The situation changes if they doesn' t saw SotF: in those cases, they' re simply playing a bunch of senseless shits and 1 offs, you can always did whatever you want and you' ll always win, because Wildfire seriously punish those decks.

I don' t know, probably we simply had to add some Tormod's to the sideboard to handle on Genesis and Loams?

A last minute thought, anybody wants to try a couple of MIndslavers on maindeck? They could be a "finisher" by theyrself, and if they' ll became as good as it seems on paper the deck could fit perfectly a couple of Arcbound Reclaimer. Any thought?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Loam is a tough match up. They have land recursion, armageddons and big doods. You just need to disrupt their mana several times before they get a chance to do anything significant.
Sanguine, do you have a current list we could look at?I did have testing results and several good, alternate deck lists, but shit happens. I have none of them now. Here's what I can recall from the one that did best;

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Sandstone Needle
10 Mountains
4 Thran Dynamo
4 Gilded Lotus
3 Monolith
6? Signets and Talismans

3-4 Trinisphere
3-4 Burning Wish
2 Form of the Dragon
4 Sundering Titan
3 Icy Manipulator
3 Keys

And some other stuff...

[idraleo]

Green and Black splashes is always behind the door: with talismans and Lotus we could always get a green or a black mana sources. Black gives us Leyline, Extirpate, some good stuff like Nether Void if we got money to invest, Void (seriously, Void). Green gives the chance to handle on enchantments thanks to Grip, Seal of Primordium, or gives us some utility such as Restock or similar.

The most exciting card i' ll hope to splash is Death Cloud. It simply destroys each strategy, and puts us in the position to win almost each game where it came out. The blask splash is not as stupid as it could seem.

[Tog]

If the new juiced up Phyrexian Furnace from Shards of Alara belongs anywhere, it's this deck. It handily gets rid of the Goyf problems thats so prevalent.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Has anyone else thought about this deck running blue, with Upheaval replacing Wildfire/Devastation, and cards like Tidesprout Tyrant, Memnarch, Tezzeret, Stroke of Genius, etc.?

[danyul]

That's an interesting idea. Toss up a thread/list, sir. With all the neat shit coming out of Shards of Alara, I'm sure something crazy can be built.



A last minute thought, anybody wants to try a couple of MIndslavers on maindeck? They could be a "finisher" by theyrself, and if they' ll became as good as it seems on paper the deck could fit perfectly a couple of Arcbound Reclaimer. Any thought?

I had never thought of Mindslaver. Could be hotstuff, but isn't really a wincon. I think if you are going to devote a slot to something that doesn't make mana or blow up lands, it should be something that can beat for 20 damage. But what do I know?


If the new juiced up Phyrexian Furnace from Shards of Alara belongs anywhere, it's this deck. It handily gets rid of the Goyf problems thats so prevalent.

Yeah, that would be a nice fit for the deck, but I'm having trouble fitting all the essentials into the MD. I think the new Furnace would be best relegated to the SB, if only because the MD is so packed. The SB suffers from this problem as well. Perhaps the wishboard should be trimmed down to fit this guy in addition to Tormod's Crypts if you want that sort of thing. Right now I have 11 wish targets which makes me feel like I've been living a life of decadence.

[idraleo]

Blue should be interesting but i don' t think that Tezzeret got some spot here. BTW, the worst aspect of the blue version is that it couldn' t handle on creature and that it doesn' t really sweep off lands. Even if we did Upheaval, we could get busted from an StP on SUndering or simply lose by a Force.

[Benie Bederios]

Blue should be interesting but i don' t think that Tezzeret got some spot here. BTW, the worst aspect of the blue version is that it couldn' t handle on creature and that it doesn' t really sweep off lands. Even if we did Upheaval, we could get busted from an StP on SUndering or simply lose by a Force.

You mean generating 14 mana in a single turn before loosing. Seems like blue is a worse option than red.

I have to admit I once used the mana base transferred to blue for a Platinum Angel deck. With FoW and Pact of Negation to protect the Angel. Gave it up really, Wildfire was simply better.

Keep up the work boys, once I finished the deck I'm building now, I'm going to put this deck together.

[idraleo]

One of the best thing of build this deck is that it cost you something near 70 dollars XD

[Rush]

Tezzeret might do well in this deck, do you think?

[Baumeister]

This may seem like a stupid idea, but has anyone tried Dragon Tyrant? I've been running it as a one-of replacing a Crater Hellion and every time it hits, it's devastating. I haven't really run into the problem of not being able to pay the upkeep and if my opponent Swords to Plowshares it, or counters it, it's not really that much of a loss because that'll clear the way for another bomb next turn. Just an idea.

Also, are there a set number of mana artifacts and sweepers that need to be run? I'm currently running 16 mana artifacts and 12 board sweepers (including Crater Hellions). Here's my deck for reference:

Lands (20)
8x Mountain
4x Sandstone Needle
4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb

Creatures (8)
3x Crater Hellion
1x Dragon Tyrant
4x Sindering Titan

Other Spells (32)
4x Wildfire
2x Devastation
2x Form of the Dragon
3x Decree of Annihilation
2x Voltaic Key
4x Talisman of Impulse
3x Trinisphere
4x Basalt Monolith
4x Thran Dynamo
4x Gilded Lotus

Makes me wish Grim Monolith was legal...

[idraleo]

Basalth Monolith is not as good as it seems in 4 off. I' ve started playing it with Keys as you do (4-2), but most of the times i found that running 3-3 is better. Key works good with other 8 cards (plus Icy if you run it) but Monolith work as well as we want only if there's a Key on board. Also, personally i don' t like so much Dragon Tyrant. It is only a great body for a great manacost. I thought it could be replaced with something better, from Karn to Duplicant to the 4th Cratera Hellion to Bogardan. And at least, try to run a minimun of cc2 stones, such as a Signet or a single Rb Talisman, because sometimes is easy to get on a hand with less red mana sources.

[MasterC]

Hey there, I've got new input for this thread.

I decided to play this baby at yesterdays Haßloch (Germany) Legacy Tournament. What I earned was a bad looking but nonetheless promising 2-4 result.

Here's the List I finally played:


"The Manhattan Project"

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [MM] Sandstone Needle
8 [IN] Mountain (1)

// Creatures
4 [DS] Sundering Titan
2 [US] Crater Hellion
1 [PLC] Akroma, Angel of Fury
1 [MR] Bosh, Iron Golem

// Spells
3 [PT] Devastation
3 [MR] Talisman of Impulse
4 [MR] Gilded Lotus
4 [UD] Thran Dynamo
2 [P3] Burning of Xinye
3 [7E] Wildfire
4 [DS] Trinisphere
3 [FUT] Coalition Relic
2 [MR] Talisman of Indulgence
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [SC] Decree of Annihilation
SB: 4 [IA] Pyroclasm
SB: 2 [DIS] Demonfire
SB: 4 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle


Choice Explanations:

No Burning Wish: First I planned to play a 3-colored burning wish sideboard (including tooth and nail, tranquility, perish, haunting echoes), but test results showed that bwish make the deck much more clunky and are a pain in the ass most of time if you draw them in multiples (you cant afford to waste turns wishing for sweepers). Also, the guy who should have lend me the wishs decided to play Loam, so this decision was not neccessary.
Instead I played Chalices, which pretty much are an auto include for a deck with this sort of mana acceleration. (in theory you can afford to have chalice at 1-4 in play)

Coalition Relic: I believe those are stronger than Worn Powerstone because
a) They fix colored mana
b) You are more flexible the first two turns (you can either get R and R or RR in the second turn.

Akroma / Bosh: I simply wanted to test the impact of different winconditions. In summary, Akroma was a bit more impressive because almost nothing can handle her (except certain black removal / wrath) and she usually ends the game within 2 turns.

Decree of Annihilation: I expected an aggro / aggro control heavy meta, and that card is only a bomb against dedicated control.

Demonfire: Against Everything that is able to shut down my ground troops (moat, humility, recurring chumpblockers). Never boarded it in because I never needed to.

Report:
Round 1 vs RBG Goblins 2-1
Game 1 The Deck does what its supposed to do. Nuking the board, add 3sphere, nuke the board again, swing with akroma.

Game 2 I'm colorscrewed and die with 3 sweepers in hand and 9 colorless mana sources + 1 mountain.

Game 3 I needle his vial, nuke his lands again and win.

Round 2 vs BG Gamekeeper-DSC-Loam-Control-Combo 1-2

Game 1 I manage to keep him under 3 mana (despite loam and 30 lands) and he dies with 3 deeds in hand.

Game 2 he rips my hand with a blindfolded cabal therapy for 3 Thran Dynamo while I'm screwed on 1 land thanks to wasteland

Game 3 I nuke his lands with Burning of Xinye and have another one to drop it when he reaches 2 again. Then he blindfolded casts Therapy for burning. (Great move, thats why I actually play a split between Wildfire and burning). Then he drops a gamekeeper, and i need to win with akroma or bosh now, or hardcast decree as a complete reset button. my sundering titan is forced to lurk around stupidly on the board, because evil gamekeeper will call mighty reinforcements when killed. for about 15 turns nothing happens, and i don't draw my outs. then, he manages to hardcast dsc. gg.


Round 3 vs Survival Elves 1-2

Game 1 I land a bomb the turn before he reaches critical mass and stomp him with titan.

Game 2 I keep a decent hand with good artifact acceleration and only 1 city of traitors. He wastelands. (i didn't see that one coming since he didn't drop a wasteland Game one. This one really fucked me up.

Game 3 I mulligan from a colorless mana hand with only boardsweepers as spells into a no land hand into a mediocre 5 card hand. he again has a wasteland. I never hit a land again.

Round 4 vs NQG/W 1:2

Game one i have chalice, trini and boardsweepers before his goyfs are big enough. I win.

Game 2 he has counters for my bombs and grips / Oblivion Rings for my acceleration.

Game 3 he drops Gaddock Teeg. (didn't see that one coming). I had almost no chance of winning that one now. then, I top deck akroma, have enough mana to hardcast her and start a damage race against a mongoose and teeg. I beat him from 18 to 9. He beats me to 8 and drops a 4/5 goyf. I attack for lethal 9 damage. response, he swords teeg to reach 2 life. Then he tops and predicts an enforcer into his graveyard to make his goyf lethal 5/6. Really spectacular awful loss.

Round 5 vs 5c Zoo 1-2

Game 1 he applies lots of pressure with that new "enhanced kird ape". my ancient tomb assists him pretty good and i lose.

Game 2 I have Chalice 2 and Trinisphere and manage to crush the board just in time (on 3 life). Then Bosh enters the game an kills within 2 turns.

Game 3 he's too fast for me again. A life saving pyroclasm is denied by my own chalice of the void. damnit.


Round 6 vs Gbw Survival 2-0

My opponent is a very unexperienced legacy player. He makes a lot of mistakes, which I allow him to take back because of the fact that it doesn't really matter if i lose this one, and I want to test in a realistic environment. I win, because he doesnt manage to bring down a goyf in time both games.


Conclusions:
All matches I lost were really close, the elves one would have been also without this shit mulliganing.
Sideboarding more than 4 cards is really a pain in the ass especially if you want to keep chalice in the deck.
Burning wish sideboard is good for handling random assholes like teeg.
Crater Hellion Sucks hard. I was annoyed every time it appeared in my hand
Mulligans are devastating. Your hand gets exponentially worse with each card less.
One single wasteland can seriously smack your face.
The Deck is a blast to play unless you draw crappy initial 7s.
Laughing at Counterbalance, Smother, Chalice, 3 Sphere, Blood Moon is fun.
You receive a lot of positive feedback from viewers and a lot of negative feedback from opponents
The deck would have performed way much better in a control heavy meta.

Keep on devastating
MasterC

[Xurcks]

I'm also using Coalition Relic MD , but i like Burning Wish a lot.
I'm testing one Decree of Justice and one Death Cloud in my wishboard. Decree has been pretty good till' now as a finisher.

[Pulp_Fiction]

I have also found Burning Wish to be clunky, even in a deck that generates a shit ton of mana. I like MasterC's approach to the deck, maindeck Chalice seems like a good plan. Although the total dissynergy (sounds like a word) with Needle and Crypt in the SB but smart play should get around this somewhat. Plus Needle will really only come in against Belcher and Deed anyway (in my meta).

@ MasterC: If you cut 2 Talismans for 2 Mountains you would mulligan a whole lot better. My main problem with the deck was mulligans so I upped the land count and the second problem was threat density. I like Bosh, thats a great 1 of and I was endlessly impressed with Karn, Silver Golem. Blocks anything early on, survives Wildfire and usually when he comes down you swing for lethal within a turn or 2. I think that without Burning Wish it enables you to play Coalition Relic which is a serious plus because I hate Worn Powerstone but it adds more mana over the span of a few turns so thats why it gets the nod. Crater Hellion blows ass, from the minute I saw people were running that I thought it was a mistake. I have never liked that card and I never will.

This deck really needs some more threats and ones that can come down a little earlier on. I really think the deck needs something like Kumano, Master Yamabushi, Shivan Hellkite, or Masticore. With the addition of Chalice you no longer have to worry about Swords as much. Has anyone tested out Masticore? Also I believe the correct number of Sundering Titans is 2-3. Certainly not 4, you don't want to draw them very early on but you want to resolve one later on in the game so I would not play any more than 3.

What is the general concensus on Temporal Aperature? I hate the fucking thing, it never works right and all I ever seem to hit is another land or Devastation when I don't need it. I think additional threats/answers are better than the Aperature. And Gilded Lotus count is another thing I am wondering about. I think 3x might be right. 4x Thran Dynamo, 3x Coalition Relic, 3x Signets, and 3x Gilded Lotus + 22 lands seem to be enough. Does anyone think 4x Trinisphere is really to many or are most people satisfied with 4?

[hyperchord24]

Here are my thoughts on the report and the deck in general. When you draw burning wish, you never look to cast a sweeper. You put it in your back pocket until you need to answer a threat. If devastation happens to answer it, then fine, but I love having the wishes there for things like pyroclasm and hull breach. Honestly though, there are many times when I just get tooth and nail and just win.

As far as the aperture goes, I use it and have had fair luck. Sometimes it's good and sometimes it's bad. That's not the point. You use it in topdeck mode to essentially draw two cards per turn. Yeah, in the early game it's not what you are looking for. But even in the late game when I reveal mountain, that's just one less mountain you're going to draw into next turn.

I've replaced the crater hellions with a devastation and 3 form of the dragon. Form negates 5+ toughness creatures and is a faster clock most of the time because you can't chump block it. The life loss is irrelevant because by the time you drop it, you've already lost a lot of life anyway (I'm still used to playing vintage where your life total doesn't matter).

[MasterC]

Hello guys, thank you for your feedback.

I think that the addition of Burning Wish pushes the Deck into a more controlish Direction, while my Version plays more like a sort of a combo Deck.

The basic plan is:
- Place a turn 2 Trinisphere or Chalice
- Drop a turn 4 Bomb
- win the game with a huge creature.

@Karn: I thought about playing him, but the fact that a single chumpblocking goyf will cost you 1 of your attacking artifacts each turn made me forfeit it. Also he isnt that huge offensive force himself. And I dont see how he survives Wildfire. Can anybody explain this to me?

@Temporal Aperture: I think that it reveals useless cards way too often (e.g. unneccessary bombs etc) and it slows down the deck too much. You cant afford to play it before you dropped your first bomb, and after that should be winning anyways.

@faster threats: I noticed this problem as well. But I don't think that the mentioned creatures are the right choice. The costs of kumano's abilities are very uncomfortable and you will have hard times to deal more than 3 damage per turn. Masticore might be better, but I dont like his upkeep cost, because in this deck it means you will never again have cards in your hand. And I think you should be able to drop a second bomb if neccessary. Also, both die to wildfire.
My approach to this problem will be: COVETOUS DRAGON!
He's cheap, he's big, he has evasion, and he doesnt die to wildfire. With a total of over 20 artifacts we should be able to keep him in play, and if at anytime we dont have an artifact in play, we should be losing anyways.
I feel that this could be our Tombstalker.

If tomorrow would be the next tournament, I would play the following list:




"The Manhattan Project 2.0"

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [MM] Sandstone Needle
10 [IN] Mountain (1)


// Creatures
3 [DS] Sundering Titan
2 [PLC] Akroma, Angel of Fury
3 [UD] Covetous Dragon
// Spells
3 [PT] Devastation
3 [MR] Talisman of Impulse
4 [MR] Gilded Lotus
4 [UD] Thran Dynamo
2 [P3] Burning of Xinye
3 [7E] Wildfire
4 [DS] Trinisphere
3 [FUT] Coalition Relic
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [SC] Decree of Annihilation
SB: 4 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 4 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle

+2 Mountain
-2 Talisman to solve the mulligan problem and the impact of wastelands

-2 Crater Hellion
-1 Bosh
+3 Covetous Dragon for more early pressure

-1 Sundering Titan
+1 Akroma because that bitch is really tough

-2 Demonfire
+1 Decree of annihilation
+1 Pithing Needle because this card was pretty useless.

-4 Pyroclasm
+4 Firespout because in our Deck this card is strictly better. it can come down turn 2 as well, we even can cast it for green mana with 10 green mana sources, and it kills wild nacatl, vanquisher, threshed mongeese, wort, Trygon Predator!!!, pumped tribal creatures (faeries, elves, merfolk), and much more.

[Willoe]

I think Covetous Dragon is more dangerous for you than for the opponent.

Say the opponent has enough mana to deed for four. He can still kill your drac. This is just one of many examples where Covetous Dragon sucks hard.

It might be very agressive, but it's also a very risky play that can lead you into card- and board disadvantage.

I'd rather play some more Akromas. They're buttkicking.

Also, I don't think it's early pressure we want. We want to play a creature that wins the game no matter what. Covetous Dragon doesn't. It gets stopped by a Tombstalker.

[Maveric78f]

Most of all, it seems to me that akroma is awful. The only nice part of it is the uncoutnerable part. But trinisphere gives you already a protection against counterspells.

[Willoe]

Most of all, it seems to me that akroma is awful. The only nice part of it is the uncoutnerable part. But trinisphere gives you already a protection against counterspells.

Uncounterability, immune to swords, and protection from blue which doesn't matter.

The fact that it can be pumped to enourmous heights to be an 1 turn clock (lategame, obviously) is also relevant at some times.

[MasterC]

I think Covetous Dragon is more dangerous for you than for the opponent.

Say the opponent has enough mana to deed for four. He can still kill your drac. This is just one of many examples where Covetous Dragon sucks hard.

It might be very agressive, but it's also a very risky play that can lead you into card- and board disadvantage.

I'd rather play some more Akromas. They're buttkicking.

Also, I don't think it's early pressure we want. We want to play a creature that wins the game no matter what. Covetous Dragon doesn't. It gets stopped by a Tombstalker.

If an opponent is able to deed for four, something is already going incredibly wrong. We should be able to clear his board before he reaches his 4th landdrop. Postboard we have needles.
And decks playing no deed shouldnt be able to handle ALL of our artifacts. And if this is really that much of an issue we can think about packing 2-3 darksteel citadel into the deck.

The fact that Dragon gets stopped by Tombstalker is kind of an argument, but if Tombstalker hits the table, we are into serious trouble anyways unless we have Devastation.



Most of all, it seems to me that akroma is awful. The only nice part of it is the uncoutnerable part. But trinisphere gives you already a protection against counterspells.

Please share your thoughts, which finishers would you recommend for this deck?

[moOnsteak]

Please share your thoughts, which finishers would you recommend for this deck?

Well, I always love Greater Gargadon. .
At least it's cheap and make your sacrificed lands (by wildfire) usable. .
9/7 vanilla won't be bother if there's nothing left in board. .

I'm also testing Flameblast Dragon, cute but we'll see if it's devastating enough as a finisher. .

[tpnp]

Well, I always love Greater Gargadon. .
At least it's cheap and make your sacrificed lands (by wildfire) usable. .
9/7 vanilla won't be bother if there's nothing left in board. .

I'm also testing Flameblast Dragon, cute but we'll see if it's devastating enough as a finisher. .
You can't sacrifice something that's already been sacrificed...so that won't work.

[XSivPSI]

You can't sacrifice something that's already been sacrificed...so that won't work.

it will if you have 4 or less lands in play.

[moOnsteak]

You can't sacrifice something that's already been sacrificed...so that won't work.

okay let's make it clear wit add 'will be sacrificed' to that phrase. .
tap mana for wildfire, then sac it for gargadon. .

[Pulp_Fiction]

If you have 4 or less lands in play cast Wildfire and maintain priority after it is cast and sack your lands in response. Not a bad play but gargadon just sucks when u draw him later on.

As far a flat out bombs, you don't need to draw any more cards (and you won't) if Masticore is in play, however, a Hymn to Tourach could kill him off so I think that is out.

Bosh is an amazing 1-of who ends the game quick, fast, and in a hurry. I would certainly play 1 but no more.

Red Akroma, probably good as a 2x of but I am the guy who never runs 3 Jitte cause of the legend rule, it is actually startling how often i draw both Jittes so I would not play any more than 2 Red Akroma.

Bogardan Hellkite is another solid choice, he kills Tombstalker then brings the pain.

Orochi Hatchery is an XX artifact that pumps out mass tokens, that or something like Riptide Replicator or Phyrexian Processor are good kill cards as well and don't suck themselves when you dont have insane amounts of mana.

Also, I stand behind Karn, he comes down early and can hold down the fort pretty well then make mass amounts of attackers later on. But since he is a legend I would only run 1.

[Willoe]

If an opponent is able to deed for four, something is already going incredibly wrong. We should be able to clear his board before he reaches his 4th landdrop.
Please share your thoughts, which finishers would you recommend for this deck?

This happens a couple of times. Landstill makes land drops each turn (approx), and Landstill plays Deed. They have counterspells for our Wildfires. Haven't that issue never happened to you? I tested Covetous Dragon in some games, but I wasn't satisfied. It's just a beef with no fancy effect.

Finishers? I have some suggestions:

Bikini Chick - I've already said why it's good

Greater Gargadon - Nuke the board while suspended, and sac your permanents to give this fucker haste. 9 for the head is a lot, remember. The question is if 9's enough?

Sundering Titan - somewhat easy to cast, but it can be problematic to destroy our own manabase. It sometimes makes casting of colors spells postTitan impossible, which is why I'm rather annoyed at it. It's still kickass, though.

Volcano Hellion - I've been satisfied, but the Echo's a bitch.

Darksteel Colossus - Yeah, eleven mana isn't that hard to reach. It chumpblocks Dreadnought while you find Devastation. Indestructibility is pretty good after all, but it still dies to STP. Sad times.

Myojin of Infinite Rage - VERY hard to cast, and I don't think it's a possibility. Still, nuking every land is sexy.

Bogardan Hellkite - Perhaps not, but Pyromatics plus a four turn clock is good.

Flameblast Dragon - Yeah, this can do some serious damage. But I still think that Akroma's better, even though this one can hit creatures and consumes colorless mana.

Thunder Dragon - Hooray for red-sided Firespout including a beef. Mass Removal's what we like, also because three is the magical number that hits threshed Mongeese.

Whaddayathink? Some of these suggestions are jank, but please discuss!

[idraleo]

Sundering Titan - somewhat easy to cast, but it can be problematic to destroy our own manabase. It sometimes makes casting of colors spells postTitan impossible, which is why I'm rather annoyed at it. It's still kickass, though.


It destroys at worst 1 Mountain to us, sometimes nothing ifour opponent goes to play mountain. How could it destroy our manabase?

[Willoe]

It destroys at worst 1 Mountain to us, sometimes nothing ifour opponent goes to play mountain. How could it destroy our manabase?

Yes, that one mountain can be very necessary in order to Wildfire etc. It's strange that it seems to me that I'm the only one who's considering these minorities. Of course, Sundering Titan is VERY powerful, but it also comes with a risk.

[Xurcks]

Yes, that one mountain can be very necessary in order to Wildfire etc. It's strange that it seems to me that I'm the only one who's considering these minorities. Of course, Sundering Titan is VERY powerful, but it also comes with a risk.

That's why I use Coalition Relic in the MD instead of Worn Powerstone / Basalt Monolith.

[MasterC]

Flameblast Dragon and Thunder Dragon seem to be worth testing. I actually didn't even know them until today. Flameblast seems to be better than Bosh, and Thunder Dragon seems to be better than Crater Hellion. Thanks to this new Dragon Box, he isn't expensive as hell anymore.

I havent had any problems with Sundering Titan yet. The 1 Mountain you may lose is ridiculous compared to what this dude does to the opponents mana base.
The Grow Player in my Tournament Report lost 5 Lands to a single Titan, 3 the Time he entered play and the remaining 2 when he managed to sword him. Hell yeah this is a "leaves play" trigger!

We should try to fit Astral Slide into the deck.
(*insane laughter*)

[moOnsteak]

Greater Gargadon - Nuke the board while suspended, and sac your permanents to give this fucker haste. 9 for the head is a lot, remember. The question is if 9's enough?

Sundering Titan - somewhat easy to cast, but it can be problematic to destroy our own manabase. It sometimes makes casting of colors spells postTitan impossible, which is why I'm rather annoyed at it. It's still kickass, though.

Volcano Hellion - I've been satisfied, but the Echo's a bitch.

Darksteel Colossus - Yeah, eleven mana isn't that hard to reach. It chumpblocks Dreadnought while you find Devastation. Indestructibility is pretty good after all, but it still dies to STP. Sad times.

Myojin of Infinite Rage - VERY hard to cast, and I don't think it's a possibility. Still, nuking every land is sexy.

Bogardan Hellkite - Perhaps not, but Pyromatics plus a four turn clock is good.

Flameblast Dragon - Yeah, this can do some serious damage. But I still think that Akroma's better, even though this one can hit creatures and consumes colorless mana.

Thunder Dragon - Hooray for red-sided Firespout including a beef. Mass Removal's what we like, also because three is the magical number that hits threshed Mongeese.

Sundering Titan is auto-include, so no words against it. .
Gargadon, Flameblast, and Bogardan will be tested and we can find which are better. .

Bogardan >> Thunder Dragon in my opinion, even it can't shoot Mongoese, But dealing 5 is more important than deals 3 to whatever ccritters that will die with only Wildfire. .

Sundering >>>>>> Myojin

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Bikini Chick - I've already said why it's goodI don't like running any creatures that don't have an outstanding effect on board position. As a control deck with no draw or card filtering, you need as much card advantage as you can get. Akroma does no such thing.
Greater Gargadon - Nuke the board while suspended, and sac your permanents to give this fucker haste. 9 for the head is a lot, remember. The question is if 9's enough?Gargadon may be the exception to what I just said. It can eat what is about to die or win the game quickly when you need it over. On the other hand, it's has no evasion or protection and doesn't mesh well with Trinisphere.
Sundering Titan - somewhat easy to cast, but it can be problematic to destroy our own manabase. It sometimes makes casting of colors spells post Titan impossible, which is why I'm rather annoyed at it. It's still kickass, though. Sundering Titan is by far, the best creature in this deck. There are so many three or four colored decks in this format that it will almost never cost more than it take. Add to that a huge, almost unbreakable, body and a damned if you do, damned if you don't clause to their removal.
Volcano Hellion - I've been satisfied, but the Echo's a bitch.I only used it briefly, but I found that the life cost was too much. Volcano Hellion is bad in this format for the same reasons that Earthquake is. You must pay, at time, six life to deal with one threat, not counting the Ancient Tombs you need to pay for it and it's echo.. Not that wise of an investment.
Darksteel Colossus - Yeah, eleven mana isn't that hard to reach. It chump blocks Dreadnought while you find Devastation. Indestructibility is pretty good after all, but it still dies to STP. Sad times.Yes, eleven mana is hard to reach. Too hard for something with such little effects and common vulnerabilities.
Myojin of Infinite Rage - VERY hard to cast, and I don't think it's a possibility. Still, nuking every land is sexy.To hard to cast for something that only Armageddons. Plus, see Colossus argument.
Bogardan Hellkite - Perhaps not, but Pyromatics plus a four turn clock is good.I've found Hellkite to be not worth the mana. It may take out a creature or two, but that'll be it.
Flameblast Dragon - Yeah, this can do some serious damage. But I still think that Akroma's better, even though this one can hit creatures and consumes colorless mana.It allows you to be aggressive while picking off threats, but it wouldn't be able to pull you out of a bad position. However, I have honestly never seen that card before so my judgment is not verified.
Thunder Dragon - Hooray for red-sided Firespout including a beef. Mass Removal's what we like, also because three is the magical number that hits threshed Mongeese.Damage is a bad way to take out creatures in this format. Wildfire can barely do it sometimes. Three damage is too little to be counted on.

[Malloot]

Damage is indeed a bad way to get rid of the problem creatures in this format. so how about playing 10 snow covered mountains and 4-3 Rimescale Dragon.
It might just make the deck less consistent but its a ok answer to all the goyfs tombstalkers and dreads. The problem is that they just untap if he is killed.
This whould be in place of crater hellion

other than that i just came to say i love this deck.
Besides being cheap to build and fun to play its house in casual multiplayer aswell, not many good legacy decks can say that. And who doesn't want to hardcast Sundering Titans all day during a tournament

ps: Scourge of Kher Ridges seems like a damn good beater/board clearer aswell

[Jugglin]

This kind of deck is indeed lots of fun to play. :D
Scourge seems like a fine creature indeed, but i'll first test that.
First, I played the standard deck with a sideboard devoid of any notable graveyard removal. That said, Aggro Loam and Ichorid being one of my most problematic matchups, my sideboard just flat out sucked.

After my epic 0-3 fail at the GP Paris side event (Aggro Loam + 2 Ichorid), I opted for the mainboard Chalice and ended up with this list:

2 Wildfire
4 Gilded Lotus
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Coalition Relic
4 City of Traitors
8 Mountain
2 Burning of Xinye
4 Talisman of Impulse
2 Form of the Dragon
1 Bosh, Iron Golem
2 Akroma, Angel of Fury
4 Devastation
4 Sundering Titan
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thran Dynamo
4 Trinisphere
4 Sandstone Needle

// sideboard
2 Decree of Annihilation
3 Pithing Needle
3 Firespout
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Shattering Spree

Devastation is just too good, so I play a full set of 'em.
They destroy Goyf, Tombstalkers, Terravores and other nasties.
Akroma works out fine for me. People usually don't expect it and them being unable to play a swords on it helped me out in a lot of matchups.
Bogardan Hellkite / Scourge or something seems like a good replacement for Bosh.
Bosh looks good, but doesn't usually do anything when it comes into play.
I dropped the Crater Hellions, because I usually really want to play the echo cost, but Coalition Relic gets in the way from time to time.

Not very sure about the sideboard though. With mainboard Akroma's being a real pain in the neck for most threshold (and other counterheavy decks) Decree doesn't seem like a much needed card for those matchup, but I could be wrong.
Also thought about playing Krosan Grip, since I play relics, talisman and lotus so getting the green mana for it shouldn't be a problem.
That said, Survival of the Fittest being the most commonly seen enchantment which poses a real threat to my strategy, Shattering Spree just seems like a better option since destroying a few mox diamonds/dreadnoughts and stuff is just too good.
I chose Relic over Crypt because it takes care of those big Terravores for good and makes goyf even smaller while getting me much needed a much needed carddraw effect.
I know Crypt activates for 0 mana, which might be crucial against a lightningfast Ichorid opening.

[idraleo]

Why Akroma and Bosh? When i thought on a finsiher, i want that those finisher did well on board. I know, Akroma is a powerhouse against Landstill if it doesn' t runs WoG, but that lonely Bosh seems out of his pLace, since you just run a full set of Sundering and 2 Akroma. Akroma could be justified as a metaslot, but Bosh in this case seems a wasted slot.

Talking on sideboard, Relic of the Progenitus is ever less effective of Tormod' s Crypt against Dredge because you' ll always want to drop on the board a Chalice @ 1 to stop Chain of Vapor, Needle and Therapy.

I think that we should go on something like this, even knowing that a full set of Trinisphere could be too much since the best lock piece comes from Chalice. I reduce Trinisphere and Sundering of 1, and turned Burning into Wildfire (cheaper, easy to find). Added something useful in sideboard against Burn. The good thing of Akroma is, as you rightly said, that it works well against Landstill and control based, and by itself is a good finisher against almost everything.

If Landstill and Threshold will be the most played decks around, adding 2/3 copyes of Boil in sideboard will be a great deal.

// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [MM] Sandstone Needle
8 [CS] Snow-Covered Mountain

// Creatures
3 [DS] Sundering Titan
2 [TSP] Bogardan Hellkite
3 [PLC] Akroma, Angel of Fury

// Spells
4 [UD] Thran Dynamo
4 [MR] Gilded Lotus
4 [9E] Wildfire
2 [SC] Form of the Dragon
4 [MR] Talisman of Impulse
4 [PT] Devastation
3 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [FUT] Coalition Relic

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [MR] Sun Droplet
SB: 4 [SHM] Firespout

[Jugglin]

Bogardan Hellkite / Scourge or something seems like a good replacement for Bosh.
Bosh looks good, but doesn't usually do anything when it comes into play.


As you can see, I really want to remove the Bosh from my decklist.
But what to add instead of it?

And indeed, didn't think about dropping chalice at 1.
Tormod's Crypt goes in again!
Trinisphere seems too gamebreaking for it to play only 3 of em.
Sure multiples are a dead draw, but that's no excuse.

[moOnsteak]

What is required to build this deck?
I assume at least combination of :

8 Basic Lands (mountain of course). .
12 Non-basic (Needle, Tomb, Traitor)

8 Lock Pieces (Sphere and Chalice)
8 Devastating Spells (Wildfire and Devastation)

16 Mana Producer (Dynamo, Talisman, Lotus, Relic)
8 Finisher (Titan, Angel, Bogardan, and/or Form Dragon)

I really want to find a space for Burning Wish, how could I replace for?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

You could cut into the number of Chalices or Trinispheres. Chalices do little to support mana denial and every Trinisphere beyond the first is dead.

[Hopo]

As they spoiled Banefire from Conflux earlier, I thought that this deck might benefit from it as an uncounterable finisher/removal. It's pretty much always cast so x>5 with all the mana available. I'm thinking of finishers distributed a little like this:
4 Sundering Titan
3 Banefire
2 Form of the Dragon

[Mordel]

It seems almost identical to demonfire...which doesn't seem to be run.

[Hopo]

It seems almost identical to demonfire...which doesn't seem to be run.

How is that identical? Sure, x damage is x damage, but it's more profitable to shoot 5 or more to the dome uncountered and keep cards in hand while doing it. I wouldn't play demonfire but I will definitely try Banefire.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Blaze is a poor use of main deck slots. It takes a huge amount of mana for it to do anything relevant on its own.

One as a wish target is alright. Not great, but it's a usable late game bail out.

[Hopo]

Blaze is a poor use of main deck slots. It takes a huge amount of mana for it to do anything relevant on its own.

That's why I thought of this deck. It consistantly plays bombs which cost 6-8 mana. That's 5 or more uncounterable dmg with Banefire. I think that it could deserve a spot in wishboard at least.

[Joon]

What is required to build this deck?
I assume at least combination of :

8 Basic Lands (mountain of course). .
12 Non-basic (Needle, Tomb, Traitor)

8 Lock Pieces (Sphere and Chalice)
8 Devastating Spells (Wildfire and Devastation)

16 Mana Producer (Dynamo, Talisman, Lotus, Relic)
8 Finisher (Titan, Angel, Bogardan, and/or Form Dragon)

I really want to find a space for Burning Wish, how could I replace for?

If I follow those lines, I come up with the following list:

Wildfire.dec

8 Mountains
4 Tombs
4 Cities
4 Sandstone Needle

4 Sundering Titan
2 Akroma

4 Trinisphere

4 Devastation
4 Wildfire

4 Thran Dynamo,
4 Talisman,
4 Gilded Lotus,
4 Coalition Relic
2 Form of the Dragon

4 Burning Wish

SB:

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Pyroclasm
Wishboard:
1 Shattering Spree
1 Hull Breach
1 Tranquility
1 Decree of Annihilation
1 Recoup
1 Burning of Xinye
1 Tooth and Nail

Changes I made from playtesting this are -2 Akroma +2 Form of the Dragon as Form will always survive all devastating spells like Devastation, Wildfire, Burning of whatever, it even survives a hardcast Decree, lol.

I'm not sure about the choices overall - maybe Sanguine Voyeur or another person more familiar with the deck could have a look at this, that would be great.

Are 8 Resetspells enough? Should I include maindeck Decrees against blue Controldecks? Should I play more copies of those resetspells in my wishboard?

Is there any space for Sensei's Divining Top, with Chalice being in the Side it could be a decent option to generate Cardquality.

[DampingEngine]

Hello, this is the guy who built Wildfire way back in 2005. I've started playing a variant of this recently on Magic Online and have been very successful, making top 8 all three times that I've played it in their premier events for the Classic format (events were 24 players or a few more). The format's very close to Legacy now, with the sets from Stronghold to Prophecy missing & some cards from pre-Mirage sets, but with a very small restricted list instead Legacy's banned list (I have Mana Crypt in the Classic version!). I had my best finish tonight, going 4-1 in the swiss and losing in the semifinal. I actually won every game in my first 4 matches and I did manage to win a game in both my losses as well. Here's a link to the decklist and a little blurb on it:

http://www.mymtgo.com/view_deck.php?did=96

Here is what I would change it to in Legacy:

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Arc-Slogger
2 Bogardan Hellkite

4 Aftershock
3 Form of the Dragon

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere

3 Chrome Mox
4 Mind Stone
4 Coalition Relic
4 Foriysian Totem

7 Mountain
1 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Decree of Annihilation
3 Greater Gargadon
3 Incendiary Command
2 Crucible of Worlds

Actually, Gargadon hasn't been all that great for me, but I don't know what to change it to yet. The other options for change are, of course, adding Worn Powerstone or Thran Dynamo in place of Totem, but I would want to swap Mind Stone for a red producer like a signet, and you would lose utility on all 8 cards that way, so I'm not sure it's worth it. City of Traitors is absolutely a no-brainer though, it's just not available on MTGO. Swapping Mox Diamond for Chrome Mox is certainly an option, and there are less red cards than land in this deck, but Mox is a standalone mana source while Mox D. is basically just an accelerator, so you'd probably have to make other changes too.

I borrowed a lot of ideas from Dragon Stompy and similar decks. SSG has been fantastic for me and Chrome Mox has been almost as good. The great thing about them is that you can aggressively power out a Chalice for 1 or Trinisphere on turn 1, and then rebuild your mana with Mind Stone/Totem/Relic on the following turns. Dragon Stompy will often be unable to cast its other spells when they do that, so its a great option to have in this deck. The other really major change is using Aftershock instead of something like Wildfire or Burning Wish. Basically you can't afford to rely on such expensive spells without big mana producers like Sandstone Needle and Thran Dynamo, which aren't even options online, but this deck gets to run a more stable manabase, plus you get utility from Mind Stone, Foriysian Totem, and most of all Wasteland. Aftershock also answers some of the biggest problem cards (Tombstalker, Tarmogoyf, Null Rod) very cheaply. It can always be a Stone Rain if you don't have a better use for it.

As for the other non-standard cards, Arc-Slogger and Coalition Relic have been the biggest reason to revive the deck for me. I always wanted to try Relic in Wildfire, and it works as well as I hoped. It's just an improved Worn Powerstone at worst, and the ability to produce double red on its own is what makes it irreplaceable. Arc-Slogger was the other card I had to try after seeing it in Dragon Stompy, and it just seems like a much better version of Crater Hellion type cards. The main benefit is that it costs only 5, but the removal ability is often superior to a sweeper like Hellion anyways. A lot of the time you want to use removal it's against something like an Ichorid or a creature being equipped, and Slogger is superior for that. It can also kill very quickly when you start burning your opponent. It even has 5 toughness if you want to keep Wildfire in the deck. I didn't play with Mirrodin block when it was current so I hadn't seen Slogger yet when I first built this, but it's probably the best kill method of all. The other big new addition for me is Form of the Dragon, which seems to be widely adopted now, and rightfully so. A lot of decks just scoop to it, but it's also a kill method that's very hard to stop, and the life resetting is more often a bonus than a drawback. Great idea, whoever came up with it first (Sanguine?).

So basically I wanted to post something since I've had success with a new version & there seems to still be a lot of interest in the deck after all these years. Thanks for continuing the work on it everyone, especially Sanguine since you seem to a flagbearer for it. Try the Relics and Sloggers if nothing else!

[Pulp_Fiction]

Now that Metalworker is back does it make Wildfire viable again? Haven't tested anything but I think it is at least worth looking into, especially from the people who have tournament experience with the deck. Thoughts?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Metalworker dies to all of the sweepers and mana sources are what need to survive those the most for this deck to maintain and advantage over the foe.

It's possible that Metalworker will make a deck with a similar curve function, but not one that depends on destroying everything.

[Benie Bederios]

I have some tournament experience and I don't think the mana is the problem of the deck( allthough a card like Grim Monolith could really make this deck good.) The problem is the inconsitency. I got to the top 8 with some insane drawing. In the top eight I lost in 8 minutes against CB Thresh( a possitive matchup) due to insane bad topdecking.

This and that Metalworker dies to Wildfire...

Benie

[Mr. Fix it]

@Bernie

why not baslt monolith? i mean its not 2 mana but its an investment for future 3 mana which ultimately achieves the same goal your looking to get too.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

@Bernie

why not baslt monolith? i mean its not 2 mana but its an investment for future 3 mana which ultimately achieves the same goal your looking to get too.Basalt Monolith is ok at best alone. It can be useful when your struggling to top deck a threat or answer, but not when you plan on casting a big spell more than one turn in a row. It's good with key, but key is somewhat useless alone or with only signets or talismans. Grim Monolith is good because while it's only a little worse than Basalt at times, it cost two, allowing for occasional ridiculous speed and the ability to get to higher mana without needing other mana sources.

If Metalworker cost was two, it may have been viable.

[einhorn303]

Saw this card on the Zendikar spoiler, might be relevant to Wildfire:

Khalni Gem
4
Artifact (Uncommon)
When Khalni Gem enters the battlefield, sacrifice it unless you return two lands you control to your hand.
{T}: Add two mana of any one color to your mana pool.

[hyperchord24]

I think I'd rather just have thran dynamo, worn pwerstone or even darksteel ingot. Unless returning the lands is relevant due to wildfire. I'm not sure. I haven't played the deck in a while. I don't remember missing the lands I lost.

[einhorn303]

I think I'd rather just have thran dynamo, worn pwerstone or even darksteel ingot. Unless returning the lands is relevant due to wildfire. I'm not sure. I haven't played the deck in a while. I don't remember missing the lands I lost.

I think it would more replace the Gilded Lotus slot.

It does have a few other synergies. You can return an almost depleted Sandstone Needle, or return a City of Traitors, play other lands, then play the City of Traitors.

[slylie]

I've been testing a wildfire build and after losses ending in fustration where i was sitting with the board sweeper/aftershock in hand but not enough life to tap my ancient tombs to cast it (If I only have a FEW more life), I modified the build and maindecked Sun Droplet. ....

http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAGMDN/sun_droplet.jpg

Yes laugh laugh laugh but wow, the deck became so much more consistient, it buys you a turn or two against fast aggro or burn, and then in the late game if you get two or three out you can get your life total up to a point they basically have no chance to win, gaining 2-5 life a turn. (one game I was playing vs counter-top I got my life total up to 65).

I'll post my build when its a bit more refined but how is everyone else doing? Felt this thread needed a little necro.

:)

[MasterC]

Necro again. :tongue:

What do you guys think:

Is this Eldrazi Dude a potential finisher for our deck? (besides Sundering Titan and Akroma?)

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=102195&stc=1&d=1267572862

10 Mana isn't that cheap, but this deck definitely can pay for it.
Also, he doesnt even need to hit the table to draw you 4 cards.

[porcupinetreeman]

I've been playing Wildfire for a long time now. I think this guy could probably fit in the deck at least a one of. He stops milling, which is a bonus. He also draws cards which really sweet. His downfall is his high mana cost though. Its easy to get 6-7 mana, but 10 mana can be tough with a lot of disruption.

Probably start with this.

// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [MM] Sandstone Needle
8 [PT] Mountain (2)

// Creatures
2 [DS] Sundering Titan
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
2 [TSP] Bogardan Hellkite
2 [PLC] Akroma, Angel of Fury

// Spells
4 [MR] Gilded Lotus
4 [UD] Thran Dynamo
3 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [MR] Talisman of Impulse
4 [FUT] Coalition Relic
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [PT] Devastation
3 [P2] Wildfire
4 [JU] Burning Wish

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [PT] Devastation
SB: 1 [P2] Wildfire
SB: 1 [SC] Decree of Annihilation
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [A] Tranquility
SB: 1 [MR] Tooth and Nail
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [PS] Hull Breach
SB: 1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [SHM] Firespout

[Sanguine Voyeur]

I am glad you necro'd this. I could not find it.

It's 10 mana for something that doesn't immediately affect board position. I mean, yes, it is a 12/12 that could win you the game merely by attacking, but it won't save you from dying. I think that something that cost so much should at least save you from losing when it resolves.

The direction to take this deck may be to something with a lower curve. Something to make it less of a glass cannon control deck. I may be wrong, however, my knowledge of current legacy is limited.

Everflowing Chalice and Khalni Gem look neat.

I do not know how to autocard.

[MasterC]

I am glad you necro'd this. I could not find it.



I used the search Function in maybe 15 different Configuration and Keywords. I searched manually, I didn't find it.
Then I decided to google it :cool:



It's 10 mana for something that doesn't immediately affect board position. I mean, yes, it is a 12/12 that could win you the game merely by attacking, but it won't save you from dying. I think that something that cost so much should at least save you from losing when it resolves.


The cool thing is he doesn't need to resolve. If someone counters your Hellkite or Titan, you'll be left with your pants down because you only play ~8 winconditions and have no card draw. Good luck for topdecking into another one.
The Eldrazi provides at least 4 cards.



Everflowing Chalice and Khalni Gem look neat.


Overflowing Chalice is strictly worse than any other mana Artifact played in the current lists. Khalni Gem might be worth a closer look, maybe in the slot of coalition relic.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Chalice has flexibility in that it can be either a 2 drop or a four drop. It could either serve as the stepping stone to get out a Dynamo the next turn, take the place of Dynamo to a lesser degree if you don't get any bigger mana stones, or some sort of super boost when it's late game and you draw mana instead of bombs.

@Porcupinetreeman; Why maindeck Chalice and 4 wishes? I find 3 to be enough.

[Scrabble]

The best finisher for the deck is Arc-Slogger. Honestly, it fits the mana curve just right (so you can hit a Wildfire the next turn). I play four with 2 Form of the Dragons and 2 Akromas because it's nice to be able to have a 2 turn clock as well with the Lotus's out.

I don't think the new beast's gonna be any good. Ten mana and no protection is pretty bad, even if you do "win" the next turn (having them lose their lands basically seals the game). I'd much rather play Akroma because it doesn't die to all the most common forms of removal (StP's, PtE, bolts, etc.), and can still kill just as quickly.. not mention that it not being able to be countered has come in handy plenty of times.



For those of you who know the power of Form of the Dragon, Acadmeny Rectors might be worth a look. I haven't been able to fit them in the way I'd like, but having a 4 mana moat/finisher is pretty nice.

[porcupinetreeman]

I am glad you necro'd this. I could not find it.

It's 10 mana for something that doesn't immediately affect board position. I mean, yes, it is a 12/12 that could win you the game merely by attacking, but it won't save you from dying. I think that something that cost so much should at least save you from losing when it resolves.

The direction to take this deck may be to something with a lower curve. Something to make it less of a glass cannon control deck. I may be wrong, however, my knowledge of current legacy is limited.

Everflowing Chalice and Khalni Gem look neat.

I do not know how to autocard.

Khalni would never work, you don't have enough lands to support it.

Everflowing Chalice is also bad, even if you can manage to pay 4 for it, its bad.

This deck has a perfect curve, the point is to cast one spell, namely wildfire or devastion, then it is game over.


The cool thing is he doesn't need to resolve. If someone counters your Hellkite or Titan, you'll be left with your pants down because you only play ~8 winconditions and have no card draw. Good luck for topdecking into another one.
The Eldrazi provides at least 4 cards.

Have you played the deck? Burning wish is a win with tooth and nail. Also I consider every big spell a win condition. It plays a lot like stax, does stax have card draw? no.


Chalice has flexibility in that it can be either a 2 drop or a four drop. It could either serve as the stepping stone to get out a Dynamo the next turn, take the place of Dynamo to a lesser degree if you don't get any bigger mana stones, or some sort of super boost when it's late game and you draw mana instead of bombs.

@Porcupinetreeman; Why maindeck Chalice and 4 wishes? I find 3 to be enough.

Four wishes because they can get countered and you are dedicating your sideboard to them. I like to run deck decks with 4 of each of the good cards.

And chalice at 1 just wins games against decks, also protection from STP.


The best finisher for the deck is Arc-Slogger. Honestly, it fits the mana curve just right (so you can hit a Wildfire the next turn). I play four with 2 Form of the Dragons and 2 Akromas because it's nice to be able to have a 2 turn clock as well with the Lotus's out.

I don't think the new beast's gonna be any good. Ten mana and no protection is pretty bad, even if you do "win" the next turn (having them lose their lands basically seals the game). I'd much rather play Akroma because it doesn't die to all the most common forms of removal (StP's, PtE, bolts, etc.), and can still kill just as quickly.. not mention that it not being able to be countered has come in handy plenty of times.

For those of you who know the power of Form of the Dragon, Acadmeny Rectors might be worth a look. I haven't been able to fit them in the way I'd like, but having a 4 mana moat/finisher is pretty nice.

Arc-Slogger is terrible in this deck. There's plenty of mana to play something worthwhile.
I tested form of the dragon, and the life loss is too great. Also, you can tooth and nail the one Kozilek

[TooCloseToTheSun]

@Porcupinetreeman - your list looks suspiciously like mine. :wink: Anyway, Form is bad especially because it takes you some time to stabilize. When you play anything it is usually game over. Resolving Sundering Titan, Bogardan Hellkite, Akroma, Angel of Fury, Devastation, Wildfire, Decree of Annihilation, or Tooth and Nail is game. They have an immediate impact unlike Arc-Slogger, to that effect Kozilek will have an immediate impact cause you draw the 4 cards. All in all the deck is super fun to play.




4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Sandstone Needle
8 Mountain

3 Sundering Titan
2 Bogardan Hellkite
2 Akroma, Angel of Fury

4 Gilded Lotus
4 Thran Dynamo
3 Trinisphere
4 Talisman of Impulse
4 Coalition Relic
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Devastation
3 Wildfire
4 Burning Wish

Sideboard

1 Devastation
1 Wildfire
1 Decree of Annihilation
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tranquility
1 Tooth and Nail
1 Shattering Spree
1 Hull Breach
1 Life from the Loam
2 Tormod's Crypt
4 Firespout

[thorin_the_king]

just a question from someone who doesn't play the deck:

wouldn't sneak attack merit a place in this deck? i mean, if we have the mana to cast a big bomb we'll do it but this will give us the abbility to play all those fatties fast and hit hard. (with all those eldrazi is more appealing)

for reference:"Sneak Attack"
Info: Color = Red Type = Enchantment Cost = 3R Edition = Urza's Saga (US)

:r: : Put a creature card from your hand into play. That creature gains haste until end of turn. Sacrifice the creature at end of turn.

i'm interested in the advice of those who play the deck thx a lot

cheers

thorin

[Baumeister]

Sneak Attack isn't that good because of the amount of mana that is generated by the deck. At that point, it's easier just to play the creature from your hand and attack with it next turn.

To be honest, though, the deck is utterly sub par without Grim Monolith. Even then it's pushing it. I play this deck casually and it kills itself by not drawing acceleration/bombs at the right time. Plus, with Zoo being as popular as it is, Ancient Tombs can really set you at a precarious life total. A lot of the right plays with the deck involve putting you down to 10 or less life with your own lands.

The ideal acceleration package would be something like this:

4x Talisman of Impulse
4x Grim Monolith
4x Thran Dynamo
4x Gilded Lotus

Until we can play that, this deck won't be a serious contender.

EDIT: Also, Sundering Titan needs to be a four-of. It's way too easy to play, and outright amazing right now with all the duals everyone is playing. Perhaps a creature package like:

4x Sundering Titan
3x Bogardan Hellkite
1x Bosh, Iron Golem

Bosh is good, but mainly as a surprise factor. He can easily deal ~12 damage in one turn (attack + fling).

[Scrabble]

Arc-Slogger is terrible in this deck. There's plenty of mana to play something worthwhile.
I tested form of the dragon, and the life loss is too great. Also, you can tooth and nail the one Kozilek

Alright, this is wrong.

We do play the decks differently- I run 4 less artifact mana and 4 more threats. This means the overall mana cost of the deck is reduced, but it actually makes the deck more effective imo. What games do you lose? Zoo? I'd imagine. Or any deck that can drop threats quicker than you can find a reset spell. Arc-Slogger not only stops all the 3 power beaters in those tough matchups, but it finishes in 3-4 turns, survives wildfire, and can deal with goyfs and the like that Wildfire doesn't kill. Your ten mana eldrazi isn't going to do that. Your 9-11 mana Tooth and nail is gonna come out too late, and Decree of Annihilation doesn't stop the hoards.

Form of the Dragon however, costs 2-3 mana less than all of the other threats, and immediately affects the game state. "The life loss is too much"- this is only true if they have a k-grip. In this case, it can harm you, but in any other game, Form seals it. Tombstalker we can kill on our upkeep, then it's an axe to the face every turn from there on out. These are cards that from personal experience, swing problem match-ups in our favor. As cool as it is to build up 24 mana and then drop A Decree followed by Tooth and Nail, alls that says is "I can because it's cool." I'd prefer to win in a less flashy, but more effective way, and that is by trimming the mana costs and fixing your problem matchups. If you don't understand, look at DampingEngine's newest list (the creator of the deck). See where it has evolved to over the years. If you don't want to go on a search, I'll just tell you- it's got Sloggers and Form of the Dragons. They're the money makers.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

Alright, this is wrong.

We do play the decks differently- I run 4 less artifact mana and 4 more threats. This means the overall mana cost of the deck is reduced, but it actually makes the deck more effective imo. What games do you lose? Zoo? I'd imagine. Or any deck that can drop threats quicker than you can find a reset spell. Arc-Slogger not only stops all the 3 power beaters in those tough matchups, but it finishes in 3-4 turns, survives wildfire, and can deal with goyfs and the like that Wildfire doesn't kill. Your ten mana eldrazi isn't going to do that. Your 9-11 mana Tooth and nail is gonna come out too late, and Decree of Annihilation doesn't stop the hoards.

Form of the Dragon however, costs 2-3 mana less than all of the other threats, and immediately affects the game state. "The life loss is too much"- this is only true if they have a k-grip. In this case, it can harm you, but in any other game, Form seals it. Tombstalker we can kill on our upkeep, then it's an axe to the face every turn from there on out. These are cards that from personal experience, swing problem match-ups in our favor. As cool as it is to build up 24 mana and then drop A Decree followed by Tooth and Nail, alls that says is "I can because it's cool." I'd prefer to win in a less flashy, but more effective way, and that is by trimming the mana costs and fixing your problem matchups. If you don't understand, look at DampingEngine's newest list (the creator of the deck). See where it has evolved to over the years. If you don't want to go on a search, I'll just tell you- it's got Sloggers and Form of the Dragons. They're the money makers.

If form of the dragon lowers your life to five you will never beat zoo, never. Arc-Slogger eats zoo's removal like no other also. When I have played the list I posted above I have never lost to zoo. Chalice at 1 combined with the ability to sweep the board with almost any big spell in the deck is house against zoo. I would like to see your list though.

[porcupinetreeman]

Alright, this is wrong.

We do play the decks differently- I run 4 less artifact mana and 4 more threats. This means the overall mana cost of the deck is reduced, but it actually makes the deck more effective imo. What games do you lose? Zoo? I'd imagine. Or any deck that can drop threats quicker than you can find a reset spell. Arc-Slogger not only stops all the 3 power beaters in those tough matchups, but it finishes in 3-4 turns, survives wildfire, and can deal with goyfs and the like that Wildfire doesn't kill. Your ten mana eldrazi isn't going to do that. Your 9-11 mana Tooth and nail is gonna come out too late, and Decree of Annihilation doesn't stop the hoards.

Form of the Dragon however, costs 2-3 mana less than all of the other threats, and immediately affects the game state. "The life loss is too much"- this is only true if they have a k-grip. In this case, it can harm you, but in any other game, Form seals it. Tombstalker we can kill on our upkeep, then it's an axe to the face every turn from there on out. These are cards that from personal experience, swing problem match-ups in our favor. As cool as it is to build up 24 mana and then drop A Decree followed by Tooth and Nail, alls that says is "I can because it's cool." I'd prefer to win in a less flashy, but more effective way, and that is by trimming the mana costs and fixing your problem matchups. If you don't understand, look at DampingEngine's newest list (the creator of the deck). See where it has evolved to over the years. If you don't want to go on a search, I'll just tell you- it's got Sloggers and Form of the Dragons. They're the money makers.

This is just wrong. If you play form of the dragon, you lose against zoo. I run 4 x firespout to deal with zoo. Krosan grip + Pridemage obviously beat form of the dragon...when they do you just lose because your only at 5 life.

And 1 resolved Tooth and Nail is game against zoo....so I wouldn't consider it "danger of cool things"

There's almost no point where I would rather cast Arc-slogger over Wildfire or devastion.

[slylie]

I used the search Function in maybe 15 different Configuration and Keywords. I searched manually, I didn't find it.
Then I decided to google it :cool:




You need to check how far back you are searching - there was no posts in here for a long long time so you need to do an advanced search from the begging.

[MasterC]

Have you played the deck? Burning wish is a win with tooth and nail. Also I consider every big spell a win condition. It plays a lot like stax, does stax have card draw? no.



Yes, I own the deck and I played it in tournaments.

I play a version different to yours, without Burning Wishs.
Instead I play 8 sweepers and 8 hitters.

The reason is because burning wish slows down the deck one turn most of the time for making it a bit more consistant.
Also, I don't like the idea of running a toolbox sideboard. I perfer a sideboard dedicated to problematic matchups.
4 graveyard hate, 4 needle, 4 firespout, 3 meta slots.

I dont really like Slogger, because he doesn't win a game on his own, unlike the other winconditions. he trades with Goyfs often enough. If you have to pay 5 or 8 mana isn't an issue in this deck. So you better go for the fat ass beaters.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

Yes, I own the deck and I played it in tournaments.

I play a version different to yours, without Burning Wishs.
Instead I play 8 sweepers and 8 hitters.

The reason is because burning wish slows down the deck one turn most of the time for making it a bit more consistant.
Also, I don't like the idea of running a toolbox sideboard. I perfer a sideboard dedicated to problematic matchups.
4 graveyard hate, 4 needle, 4 firespout, 3 meta slots.

I dont really like Slogger, because he doesn't win a game on his own, unlike the other winconditions. he trades with Goyfs often enough. If you have to pay 5 or 8 mana isn't an issue in this deck. So you better go for the fat ass beaters.

I think Matt (porcupinetreeman) was wondering if you played the burning wish version. It plays a little different from the wishless version. I used to play a wishless version but I never had any luck with it. I haven't played either version in a while but a friend of mine won our local tournament a few weeks ago with the list I posted above. The best moment of that whole tournament was when he played akroma against UW Tempo and the guy tried to daze it.

[slylie]

As for form of the dragon, its ok against zoo as long as you have Trinisphere down first. They will be long dead before they can pay 6 mana to lightning bolt you twice. Don't forget it is a moat that must be answered in 3-4 turns or they lose. You obviously don't throw it down without a plan, but as its certain people are going to play aggro, the moat effect can win you a lot of games. Not to mention decks like merfolk, dredge, elves, get shut down quite well by a resolved form of the dragon, or if not long enough till they can draw an answer, at which point the 5 damage to the dome a turn should have killed them.

[Mantis]

Why Akroma and not just 4 Sundering Titan?

[MasterC]

Why Akroma and not just 4 Sundering Titan?

I run 4 Sundering Titan in my list, alongside 2 Akroma and 2 other beaters (haven't found the perfect card for the slot until now).

Akroma is awesome because:

-in this Deck, she seals the deal in 2 turns usually
-She rapes Merfolk and Bant
- she can come down early to race Aggro Strategies

[TooCloseToTheSun]

So I took my above list to our local tournament yesterday and I got second place with a 3-0-1 record. The guy I ID'ed with won. :frown:

Round 1 - Zoo 2-0
Round 2 - Vampires 2-0
Round 3 - My friend I ID'ed with.
Round 4 - Elves 2-0

All in all a fairly good tournament.

[Jaynel]

All is Dust
7
Tribal Sorcery - Eldrazi
Each player sacrifices all colored permanents he or she controls.

Is this playable?

[Sims]

I think so, You hit 7 mana usually to cast Devastation or even 8 for Titan, and this will get rid of not only annoying goyfs and tombstalkers that are outside wildfire range, but also their deeds, planeswalkers, tokens, survivals, counterbalances, etc.. I am liking this card, i just haven't decided how it's going to get worked in yet. From the board or in the main, replacing devastation flat out or some kind of split (to keep more LD than just wildfire in..)

[MasterC]

All is Dust
7
Tribal Sorcery - Eldrazi
Each player sacrifices all colored permanents he or she controls.

Is this playable?

I wouldn't play it maindeck, as it doesn't destroy lands, which is our gameplan.
As a sideboard card against Deed, Survival and Planeswalkers I'd rather choose Needle, which also shuts down Wasteland and Vial.

[JeroenC]

I know we already talked about the 10mana Eldrazi, but wouldn't the 8mana 8/8 Annihilator 2 be an option?

[slylie]

So I took my above list to our local tournament yesterday and I got second place with a 3-0-1 record. The guy I ID'ed with won. :frown:

Round 1 - Zoo 2-0
Round 2 - Vampires 2-0
Round 3 - My friend I ID'ed with.
Round 4 - Elves 2-0

All in all a fairly good tournament.

Good job man. Undefeated until the finals. I'm very glad people are looking at this deck again. I've been working on it in secret for a long time now and just love playing it.

As for the talk about all is dust, I think devestation is much better and I don't really see all is dust being playable in here. If it somehow destroyed lands it would be awesome, but against most decks is just a colorless wrath of god. Perhaps playing a creature suite of all artifact creatures and this would be neat, but our goal with the deck is throw down artifact mana, then devestate our opponents entire board, then win. Maindeck its just useless against too many decks.

[slylie]

Mindstone on steroids... maybe playable as a 2of?

http://www.gatheringmagic.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/m7ed.jpg

[Carabas]

The biggest problem with that is the fact that it makes colorless mana. You already have plenty of good, cheaper, colorless sources, and so the slot it winds up competing with is Gilded Lotus. For a deck that sometimes has trouble casting its colored spells, the lotus seems a bit more important than the ability to draw 3 cards while flooded. It's not so bad that I won't test it, but I don't expect any good to come of it.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

If you have six mana, you can already cast Wildfire and Hellion.

[slylie]

its nice to have excessive amounts of mana after you do cast devastation or wildfire to follow up with titan tho. I agree its too bad it produces colorless but I'm thinking more on the lines of the mana is there, and if you don't need the mana its the best colorless draw 3 spell in a long time. Anyways I'll try testing it.

[MasterC]

Oh snap, why the hell isn't it like

Dreamstone Hedrone :4:

Tap: Add :3:

:6: Tap Sacrifice: Draw Three Cards?

:mad: