[DTB] UWx Miracle Control

[twndomn]

Two lists from Miracles heavy hitters and a couple of talking points:

Anuraag Das' most recent list from SCG Team Event this weekend - https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/833493#paper

Search for Azcanta - Anuraag is playing three copies of the card! This is also a big departure from his Eternal Weekend list, which featured none.

Entreat the Angels - He chose to play two copies, which brings us to...

Daniel Miller's most recent list, from the Classic at this SCG Event (2nd place) - https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/833560#paper

Entreat the Angels - two copies here

Counterbalance and Back to Basics - two copies MD of each; this keeps with what Daniel has been playing for a month now.

Would love to have some discussion on these card choices, especially Search for Azcanta!

Miller is my new hero. He's been running 2 CB and 2 B2B for a while now, I remember he has them for EW, if my memory still serves me correctly. Noticeably, he hasn't jump on the Search bandwagon, yet.

[Whitefaces]

Miller is my new hero. He's been running 2 CB and 2 B2B for a while now, I remember he has them for EW, if my memory still serves me correctly. Noticeably, he hasn't jump on the Search bandwagon, yet.

Out of interest, why do you think it's a 'bandwagon'?

[twndomn]

Out of interest, why do you think it's a 'bandwagon'?

It's a new card, people want to experiment with it, I get it, it's fine to try, as I do with fringe cards from time to time.

However, the more I tried Miller's Back to Basic game plan, the more I incline to agree with that philosophy of centering around basic lands. This commitment means that you have the non-bo (anti-synergy) with Karakas and... Azcanta land. But as I've mentioned earlier, Karakas in a necessary evil, especially when Leovold is so brutal.

[Kobal]

While we are talking about experimental new cards ...

Has anyone tested Abrade in a Miracles sideboard (or maindeck?) yet? It seems like an ideal hedge card, like when you don't know whether your Delver opponent will board in Winter Orb etc.

[Whitefaces]

It's a new card, people want to experiment with it, I get it, it's fine to try, as I do with fringe cards from time to time.

However, the more I tried Miller's Back to Basic game plan, the more I incline to agree with that philosophy of centering around basic lands. This commitment means that you have the non-bo (anti-synergy) with Karakas and... Azcanta land. But as I've mentioned earlier, Karakas in a necessary evil, especially when Leovold is so brutal.

Right...I don't get the problem? The card is powerful, it's new and being experimented with, so hardly 'fringe'?

Karakas is a terrible answer to Leovold. Since you have no way of punishing the tempo loss, you're giving them cards and never actually dealing with the issue.

[twndomn]

Right...I don't get the problem? The card is powerful, it's new and being experimented with, so hardly 'fringe'?

Karakas is a terrible answer to Leovold. Since you have no way of punishing the tempo loss, you're giving them cards and never actually dealing with the issue.

If you're committed to Miller's list, Search is not attractive at all. It can allow you to Predict better at best. The Impulse part, which is deemed powerful by many, is just anti-synergy with B2B.

If your hand is full of cantrips, no Jace, no removal, the only way to "unlock" this board state is to bounce the Leovold, so that you can play the cantrips to find an answer. Either to counter Leo on its way down, or find that removal. I'm sure you don't need me to point that out. Karakas by itself is versatile enough in many match-ups, and the popularity of Leovold in the recent meta made the card even more important, as evident in Miller's list. Funny thing is, with the rise in the popularity of Leovold, I still see people running Predict, including Miller. When Leovold in play, your predict can draw you a card at best, it's so underwhelming. If I really want to dig for an answer for Leovold and I know the card is popular in my LGS, I would rather run Impulse instead.

With all the reasonings I have listed, I don't get the problem.

[AnziD]

It's a new card, people want to experiment with it, I get it, it's fine to try, as I do with fringe cards from time to time.

However, the more I tried Miller's Back to Basic game plan, the more I incline to agree with that philosophy of centering around basic lands. This commitment means that you have the non-bo (anti-synergy) with Karakas and... Azcanta land. But as I've mentioned earlier, Karakas in a necessary evil, especially when Leovold is so brutal.

I am unsure the philosophy of centering around basic lands necessitates Back to Basics. They work well together but one does not demand the other. That being said, having a high quantity of basics is absurdly appealing.

Regarding Search, the card has been insane. It snaps open the control matchups, gives you something more impactful to do vs Delver in the earlier turns, and is almost a better Jace in the combo matchups. I am pretty sure it will become standard, though maybe 3 is a bit much.

[AnziD]

random thoughts. enjoy if you're a sicko like me

https://i.imgur.com/4Cm27CG.png

[It Is Unfair]

So I wrote a small FAQ for the deck. Since people seem to return to the same questions in cycles every few months. Anyone is free to comment in the document if they find typos, if they disagree with something, or want me to add something (maybe I forgot some question?). You can find it Here! (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Kz8-adPGaM_PkIqR2eKc3YoMYpsrWHmTp2yWJ4xVcso/edit?usp=sharing)

[crowe_1]

^
Very in-depth. Good work, sir.

[Mackan]

Excellent post It is Unfair!

[HammerAndSickled]

Originally was gonna post this on the Reddit post but I figured this is a better platform for discussion.

One thing I'd like more detail on if you're able to elaborate is the section on RiP. Your arguments seem to boil down to 1) Reanimator is too fast for RiP to matter, 2) BUGx graveyard decks or mongoose decks are not as prevalent as they were before, 3) Lands brings in Grip so Surgical is better, and 4) the dissynergy with Snapcaster is too much to overcome.


As far as 1 goes, a single RiP in an otherwise clunky opener does fold to a fast draw from Reanimator. But those aren't really the hands you should keep: it's better to treat Reanimator as a Storm deck where you need Force and then have secondary answers like Canonist to lock it up. You wouldn't keep a Forceless hand against Storm with only a canonist, and you shouldn't keep only RiP hands against Reanimator. Also, Reanimator is far less prevalent than Lands in the last few months, which I'll address later. Surgical is definitely far superior to RiP in this matchup though, I'll agree.


For #2, I disagree with this wholeheartedly and this is the crux of my argument in favor of RiP. Czech Pile is the single most prevalent deck online and still widespread in paper, and it gets seriously hosed by RiP. With a RiP in play their Deathrites, Snapcasters, delve threats, and Kess if they play it are all neutralized. Random 1/2s and 2/1s get ignored or swept up easily so that means you literally only have to worry about 2 Leovold and 2 Jace, maybe 1 Liliana if they have it. The fact that they are a Deathrite deck and also a much better Snapcaster deck than you are means RiP is a house. This is, in my mind, the main reason to play RiP. Most lists only have a single Decay and maybe a Golgari Charm in their 75 to answer it.


Point #3 makes sense but I honestly like both cards for different reasons in the matchup. RiP, even if immediately Gripped, at least acts as a Relic and deals with whatever is going on at the current moment. Even if I knew all my RiPs would be removed instantly I'd still be able to time them to eat a few loams, a few combo pieces or fires, etc. And of course if left unanswered it is very easy to win with a RiP out. Surgical is really good at cutting off one specific line of play, be it Fire or Depths, but today's decks have lots of backup plans including Tracker and sometimes a manland. Loam is obviously the best Surgical target but they often have ways to save it with Thickets, and good lands players don't expose their Loam to Surgical often. So again RiP plays the role of "permanent hate that needs to be answered" while still generating some advantage even if answered, and Surgical fills the reactive role of answering something once. I view them like Canonist/Fluster against Storm.


The 4th point about dissynergy with Snapcaster is something I agree with and I would try to avoid if possible, but I've recently come to a more developed viewpoint. There was an article a while back about why "nonbos" aren't necessarily to be avoided at all costs. In the matchups where Snap is good and RiP isn't, you leave RiPs out, and vice versa. But in the matchups where both are good, you have to play kind of carefully around the dissynergy. Usually I'd burn a Snapcaster early on to flashback a cantrip before I play Rest In Peace, or use my RiP as a bait spell if I'm sure it'll be countered/answered then set up Snapcaster later. As a heavy cantrip deck you have ways to get rid of the cards if they're situationally bad as well. If you do have the utter misfortune of having a resolved RiP that's unanswered and draw a Snap with no way to get rid of it, it's still a 2/1 flash and in the matchups where your opponent is crippled by RiP that's probably good enough. Against Czech Pile Snapcaster is one of your best cards, but under a RiP a lot of their stuff is less scary so you can afford to have a shittier Snapcaster in exchange for turning off a large portion of their threats.


Anyway, props for the awesome in-depth FAQ and thanks in advance for any discussion that can be had!

[It Is Unfair]

You are correct that I had to write some shorter answers to most of the questions. And I agree that this is a good place to maybe go into depth on those worth discussing more. I also like how you structured your post, it makes a discussion easier.

I may have been a bit harsh on RIP, I mostly don't like how some people seem to play it as the only graveyard hate.

Regarding comparing reanimator against storm. I think reanimator is a lot faster than storm on average, at least one whole turn, especially RB. So I value turn 0 interaction much higher in that matchup than I do against storm. I also think they are much worse at playing the longer game, so if I just survive a few turns I can fall back on cards like snapcaster and counterspells, maybe even CB or such depending on the list. This is the main matchup I really wanted hate against a few months ago, but maybe the meta is changing? A let's change could certainly be a reason to change the hate around.

Still on the topic of reanimator, if you however play both than yes it is good, it can close out the game on the same way as CB could. But is it better than containment priest here as the secondary hate? I'm unsure, and priest had some valuable applications against sneak & show, also, I do think playing all three of these is over kill and requires to many slots.

I do like how GY hate for value functions in the pile matchup. I have cast Ground Seal against them with other decks in the past and that was very good. On the other hand it is slow, and needs to stop multiple cards before you get back the card advantage, so of they just curve out with hymn->Leovold I would feel kind of had about drawing this. I'm not going to say it is bad here, because it obviously isn't. I'm just not convinced that it is really the best sideboard card we could have of we wanted something that was "anti pile". I could very well be wrong there though. I have in the past played rip or relic of progenitus for these decks but it was quite a while ago, maybe it is time to revisit that idea.

Regarding noboes I also like that article, and your are correct that I should probably have addressed that or mentioned how this is maybe not that big? Also the cantrips point you bring up is certainly correct. It is just the fact that I value snapcaster as one of our best cards in grindy matchups, as one of the primary ways to recuperate value after a hymn or refuse a CJ on Leovold and such. But maybe I value out to highly? I do like the idea of playing to the board against hymn decks in general, it makes it so that if we do gain advantages they are more robust and easier to keep.

[Wurst_]

Hi everyone!

i'am new to miracles in the current form and still trying to find a list that fits my playstyle the most. It seems like there are two different lists that perform quiet well, one with usually 2 entreat and 2 search for azcanta and one with 4 snapcaster and 3 mentors. The lists with entreat usually are splashing red for blasteffects in the sideboard to deal with jace, snapcaster, the lists with mentor are usually straight UW and try to play a more proactive game.
The decklists with entreat sometimes seem to be a little bit light on outs to chalice since they can randomly win games with entreat against chalice-decks. Mentor is more depending to actually casting and resolving spells so they usually have 2 answers main and another 2 in the board.
As "It is unfair" wrote in his excellent primer red cards like pyroclasm-effects usually involve playing a basic mountain which has its disadvantages too. To me, that is just to much investment for this type of effects. Blasteffects are obv. great but every nonbasic-land makes you more vulnerable to wasteland. even in a deck with jsut 3 nonbasics, i lost severall games to wasteland, especially against delver or d'nt.
Cards like Counterbalance don't seem to be as accepted, although the effect is still quiet powerful. In theory Counterbalance should be most powerful in the lists involving Mentors. I found it really powerful against basically all decks revolving around Brainstorm and Ponder so all Delver-Decks, Pile and most Combodecks.
This is my current decklist:

3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Monastery Mentor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Portent
3 Predict
4 Force of will
2 Counterspell
1 Flusterstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
1 Councils Judgement
1 Unexpectadly Absent
3 Jace, the Mindsculptor
2 Counterbalance
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding tarn
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
6 Island
2 Plains

Sideboard
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
2 Back to basics
2 Disenchant
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Search for Azcanta
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Rest in Peace
1 Countainment Priest

as of now, i'm not that happy with the cliques since most decks with jace play balefulstrix too these days. Against Combo, most of the time it is crucial to find a fast clock, so in there matchups the cliques really shine. Against Jace the Cliques are quiet strong too and a good answer when you don't have blastseffects available but these are still up for testing.
I would be very interested in the current list from it is unfair, and of course the experiance with the different lists of everyone else too;)

[twndomn]

Hi everyone!

i'am new to miracles in the current form and still trying to find a list that fits my playstyle the most. It seems like there are two different lists that perform quiet well, one with usually 2 entreat and 2 search for azcanta and one with 4 snapcaster and 3 mentors. The lists with entreat usually are splashing red for blasteffects in the sideboard to deal with jace, snapcaster, the lists with mentor are usually straight UW and try to play a more proactive game.
The decklists with entreat sometimes seem to be a little bit light on outs to chalice since they can randomly win games with entreat against chalice-decks. Mentor is more depending to actually casting and resolving spells so they usually have 2 answers main and another 2 in the board.
As "It is unfair" wrote in his excellent primer red cards like pyroclasm-effects usually involve playing a basic mountain which has its disadvantages too. To me, that is just to much investment for this type of effects. Blasteffects are obv. great but every nonbasic-land makes you more vulnerable to wasteland. even in a deck with jsut 3 nonbasics, i lost severall games to wasteland, especially against delver or d'nt.
Cards like Counterbalance don't seem to be as accepted, although the effect is still quiet powerful. In theory Counterbalance should be most powerful in the lists involving Mentors. I found it really powerful against basically all decks revolving around Brainstorm and Ponder so all Delver-Decks, Pile and most Combodecks.

Sideboard
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
2 Back to basics
2 Disenchant
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Search for Azcanta
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Rest in Peace
1 Countainment Priest

as of now, i'm not that happy with the cliques since most decks with jace play balefulstrix too these days. Against Combo, most of the time it is crucial to find a fast clock, so in there matchups the cliques really shine. Against Jace the Cliques are quiet strong too and a good answer when you don't have blastseffects available but these are still up for testing.
I would be very interested in the current list from it is unfair, and of course the experiance with the different lists of everyone else too;)

To address each of your points:
1. 2 entreat and 2 search for azcanta
This is not correct. To be specific, Daniel Miller started the 2 EtA + 2 CB + 2 B2B, with Mountain http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=17612&d=309110&f=LE . This is very specific to his play style and it runs zero Search. The jury for Search is still out there. If you are committed to Search, then you're probably committed to Predict. If you're committed to both Search and Predict, it would make a lot of sense to run multiple Mentors MD. While it's fine to experiment with Search, as seen here http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=17702&d=309671&f=LE , I don't believe 2 EtA and 2 Search pairing is definite or optimal at this point in time.

2. The Wasteland argument and r splash
This losing to wasteland argument is weak, when considering R splash or not. When Decay was at its peak, people still run 4 CB. The argument of "I would lose to card X so I don't run card Y" is just not a convincing one. I would argue that R is more important than ever. Before Leovold, Red Splash can already save you from opposing Jace, TNN on stack. Now Red splash can actually Free your Ponder and cantrips when opponent has Leovold in play.

Fundamentally, if you keep losing to Wasteland, run more lands, run more blue Cantrips, fetch Basics even though rest of your hand encourages you to get that 2nd U or 2nd W via Tundra. I doubt getting Waste out of a game is a direct causality of splashing R.

3. To CB or not CB
This argument is very theoretical, and I don't want to go too in-depth. Here's the shorter version: if you MD 3~4 Mentors, CB is probably not integral to your game plan.

4. Your SB
I don't understand the one Leyline. I might be able to overlook 2 Leylines setup. If I intend to run that card, I would start with 3 in the SB, and then trim if appropriate.

5. Clique
As we know, Clique is great against combo. What exactly is Clique's role in fair deck MUs? Well, a well-time Clique can take away SFM's activation. Also, many BUG decks now have Jace in their SB. Clique is one of few evasion creatures that can get to opponent's Jace and/or Liliana. Again, using Strix as the argument is weak. For all we know, Clique might just die immediately upon resolving, but you have to try if your opponent has a Jace or Liliana in play. Most opponents would SB-out creature removal against Miracles in SB games, hence Clique performs better against sloppy opponents, like the ones who would send Leovold into attack.

[JackaBo]

To address each of your points:
1. 2 entreat and 2 search for azcanta
This is not correct. To be specific, Daniel Miller started the 2 EtA + 2 CB + 2 B2B, with Mountain http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=17612&d=309110&f=LE . This is very specific to his play style and it runs zero Search. The jury for Search is still out there. If you are committed to Search, then you're probably committed to Predict. If you're committed to both Search and Predict, it would make a lot of sense to run multiple Mentors MD. While it's fine to experiment with Search, as seen here http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=17702&d=309671&f=LE , I don't believe 2 EtA and 2 Search pairing is definite or optimal at this point in time.


I don't understand this reasoning at all. Either you want predict and a bunch of cantrips (and UA). In that shell you will make sure you know what's on top of your deck and therefore play well with terminus and EtA and to a certain degree counterbalance. Pedict also offers another way to instantly draw a card to trigger Terminus (and EtA).
If you run Azcanta you will seldom know what's on top of your deck (except when it's not flipped, and then you will only know in your upkeep) since you will put the other 3 cards on bottom. But you will be better at digging for silverbullet cards to put into your hand. Also with Azcanta the need for predict goes down as you have another card engine. To me Azcanta would seem to work better with silverbullets that are played from the hand, such as loads of instant speed removal and counters. For that reason i think Azcanta is actually better in a Grixis/kcommand Shell than in a UWx Shell.

[Mackan]

I don't understand this reasoning at all. Either you want predict and a bunch of cantrips (and UA). In that shell you will make sure you know what's on top of your deck and therefore play well with terminus and EtA and to a certain degree counterbalance. Pedict also offers another way to instantly draw a card to trigger Terminus (and EtA).
If you run Azcanta you will seldom know what's on top of your deck (except when it's not flipped, and then you will only know in your upkeep) since you will put the other 3 cards on bottom. But you will be better at digging for silverbullet cards to put into your hand. Also with Azcanta the need for predict goes down as you have another card engine. To me Azcanta would seem to work better with silverbullets that are played from the hand, such as loads of instant speed removal and counters. For that reason i think Azcanta is actually better in a Grixis/kcommand Shell than in a UWx Shell.

Search for Azcanta and Counterbalance sparked my interest in the deck once again and I've been trying a lot of different versions last couple of weeks. Search is a lategame card that let us compete with the other durdly decks of the format. I Think it belongs in either shell as it's just about drawing cards, regardless of what those cards are. I would like to Point out that the Sunken ruin is a great way to set up ETA if your deck is 3-4 cards :-)

I am not sure about Counterbalance but I like it so far... Both ETA and Mentor suck maindeck but both belongs in the 75. It's probably unreasonable to have all the wincons in the sideboard so we'll see...

Predict, snapcaster, search, portent and counterspell all belong in my deck but I need to figure out the numbers.

Oh, and Null rod in the board is fantastic. If you don't run Rod I think relic of progenitus is a must have moving forward do have the snapcaster/search advantage aswell as hosing dredge/reanimator/lands.

[Whitefaces]

I don't understand this reasoning at all. Either you want predict and a bunch of cantrips (and UA). In that shell you will make sure you know what's on top of your deck and therefore play well with terminus and EtA and to a certain degree counterbalance. Pedict also offers another way to instantly draw a card to trigger Terminus (and EtA).
If you run Azcanta you will seldom know what's on top of your deck (except when it's not flipped, and then you will only know in your upkeep) since you will put the other 3 cards on bottom. But you will be better at digging for silverbullet cards to put into your hand. Also with Azcanta the need for predict goes down as you have another card engine. To me Azcanta would seem to work better with silverbullets that are played from the hand, such as loads of instant speed removal and counters. For that reason i think Azcanta is actually better in a Grixis/kcommand Shell than in a UWx Shell.

I've found that it doesn't really matter about synergy or not when it comes to Search, it's not really its purpose. The cuter you get and more silver bullets you include the weaker your deck will be overall. Why it's so great in this deck is because we're the best draw go deck in the format. Once flipped Search will find what you need, either off the activation or from cantrips and this feeds into the other engines. Search and Predict can coincide fine, currently I'm playing two of each and really happy with them. I'd hazard against cutting lower than these two Predicts for ways to draw Terminus at instant speed if anything, but alongside two copies of Counterbalance and the two Searches, card advantage hasn't been an issue.

This is what I'm playing right now and quite happy with.

3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Portent
2 Predict
2 Search for Azcanta
2 Counterbalance

4 Terminus
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
1 Council's Judgment

3 Tundra
3 Volc
4 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
3 blue fetch
1 Arid Mesa

SB
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Monastery Mentor
1 Councils Judgment
1 Disenchant
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Vendilion Clique

[twndomn]

I don't understand this reasoning at all. Either you want predict and a bunch of cantrips (and UA). In that shell you will make sure you know what's on top of your deck and therefore play well with terminus and EtA and to a certain degree counterbalance. Pedict also offers another way to instantly draw a card to trigger Terminus (and EtA).
If you run Azcanta you will seldom know what's on top of your deck (except when it's not flipped, and then you will only know in your upkeep) since you will put the other 3 cards on bottom. But you will be better at digging for silverbullet cards to put into your hand. Also with Azcanta the need for predict goes down as you have another card engine. To me Azcanta would seem to work better with silverbullets that are played from the hand, such as loads of instant speed removal and counters. For that reason i think Azcanta is actually better in a Grixis/kcommand Shell than in a UWx Shell.

Regarding which shell, it's entirely possible Grixis shell is better than UWx shell, I haven't test that so I don't know.

Regarding Search, most of time, if you actually get to flip the enchantment, I consider that you have navigated the early game and you're at least in parity against your opponent. That's usually not how you lose the game. In other words, if you get to almost-impulse at opponent's EOT, I would say you've weathered the scary part already. Your paragraph seems to focus on the flipped land, while I am not. What about the MUs in which flipped land won't even last, like DnT or Lands? What if you need an immediate answer mid-game say Leovold, and you top-deck a Search?

[Wurst_]

Regarding Search for Azcanta, i think the card is quiet powerful but somewhat polarized in its performance. It usually is a quiet bad topdeck and, depending on the matchup it is either crazy strong, like against 4c leovold, or really bad, like against d'nt, lands and most of the time against delver-decks as well. When your gameplan works it should be the only nonbasic in play if you manage to flip it so you won't get more than one activation out of it. The problem i have with those type of cards is, that miracles as an archtype is somewhat polarized since you have a huge set of cards that is either great in a matchup or really bad. This biggest problem with miracles seems to be the consistancy so i currently prefer cards that are maybe less powerful, but better in a wider field of matchups. I guess you could say that about counterbalance too, but it currently seems to work better for me. Also i absolutly twndomn is right that if you get to activate a flipped search multiple times you propably managed the scary part already. I do like the 2 Predict, 2 Search split that whitefaces suggested and will try that.

to all tha stuff that twndomn wrote: sure there is that one list from daniel miller that plays enreat, balance and btb maindeck but when you look at the mtgo-metagame from the last 2 weeks, and the results from the european-scene, what i said is correct. Regarding my reasoning about beeing more vulnerable to wasteland when playing more nonbasicslands all your arguments seem to be rather weak. The Problem is usually not that you get screwed by getting wasted once but more that you no longer can play around cards like spell pierce or daze and sometimes loose to those cards. According to your reasoning it seems like playing more nonbasics comes with no downside at all, since you just can play more fetches/lands which seems to be absolute garbage from my point of view.
About the Leyline, i get that 1 leyline seems strange and you are probably right that it should be either zero or at least 2. i wanted one more permanent card that is good against discard besides balance but didn't want another balance in the sideboard so i choose a leyline for that slot.
About the Cliques i don't get your reasoning at all. Sure Clique is still good vs Jace and Combo but still the amount of baleful strix that gets played is still a problem. especially vs 4c leovold where you need a good answer to jace, you can't always count on clique to do the job since there usually is a strix in your way which would be a good argument for playing the red splash again if you have trouble beating jace in that matchup.

[koten]

With Monastery Mentor moving to the SB, which match-ups are you guys bringing him in for?

[JackaBo]

I will play my old 4 predict/2 ua today but will try whitefaces 2predict/2 azcanta/1 CJ/1 extra counterspell next time.

[phg22]

Can someone explain Search for Azcanta to me. Obviously I can read the card, I know what it does. What I'm seeing is a card that puts you down until you've invested 2+4 mana into it. Why would I want to play this over predicts or Counterbalance, which seem much better tempo plays? Unless you're expecting a bunch of very grindy games (mirror and Czech). I assume, of course, you're not all idiots and this card is good, so I would very much appreciate a clear explanation of why.

[Whitefaces]

Can someone explain Search for Azcanta to me. Obviously I can read the card, I know what it does. What I'm seeing is a card that puts you down until you've invested 2+4 mana into it. Why would I want to play this over predicts or Counterbalance, which seem much better tempo plays? Unless you're expecting a bunch of very grindy games (mirror and Czech). I assume, of course, you're not all idiots and this card is good, so I would very much appreciate a clear explanation of why.

It really is a case of you need to try it I think, I completely breaks open midrange/control matchups and if unanswered will take over a game. I was skeptical but optimistic at the beginning, but it's overperformed. Flipping into a land is very relevant a lot of the time too, we're a mana hungry deck with a lot of things to do with it.

[somethingdotdotdot]

I feel like search has 3 modes:

1. Comes down and is a crappy top every turn (which honestly isn't bad)
2. Flips into an extra land (sorta like a mana dork/enchantment)
3. A slightly worse impulse every turn (which typically wins you the game).

It's surprisingly useful in mode 1 by filtering an otherwise clunky deck. Mode 2 is typically timed so that you can utilize the extra mana that turn, even if it gets wastelanded afterwards. Mode 3 is just gravy--it only happens in the late game, but you get so many extra looks to find answers/win-cons that you just take over the game in about 2-3 turns. I'll keep search unflipped for large parts of the game if I don't need the mana and just want to keep filtering my draws, especially if their deck has wastelands.

[Whitefaces]

Miracles took first and second of the last MTGO Challenge - https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2017-12-11

[alphastryk]

Playing catch up since the rise of Search for Azcanta is getting me back into magic a bit (took a break after top got banned).

I've got 2 questions about Null Rod that I'm seeing in the board now:
1) What matchup(s) are you bringing it in for?
2) Why Null Rod over Stony Silence?

[Whitefaces]

Playing catch up since the rise of Search for Azcanta is getting me back into magic a bit (took a break after top got banned).

I've got 2 questions about Null Rod that I'm seeing in the board now:
1) What matchup(s) are you bringing it in for?
2) Why Null Rod over Stony Silence?

1) Storm and DnT are the big ones, but there's also stuff like Eldrazi Post, Belcher, Blade decks among some others where it's useful. It's a pretty high impact card in the matchups you want it. Personally I'm not playing one right now, but there's a lot of merit to it.

2) As it's mainly for Storm and DnT, Storm you mostly turn into a URw deck so might bet fetching a Volc over a Tundra early to blast a cantrip. DnT you only want to fetch basics and might not have a W one available. Vs both their answer for cards like this don't care if it's an Artifact or Enchantment.

[Mackan]

1) Storm and DnT are the big ones, but there's also stuff like Eldrazi Post, Belcher, Blade decks among some others where it's useful. It's a pretty high impact card in the matchups you want it. Personally I'm not playing one right now, but there's a lot of merit to it.

2) As it's mainly for Storm and DnT, Storm you mostly turn into a URw deck so might bet fetching a Volc over a Tundra early to blast a cantrip. DnT you only want to fetch basics and might not have a W one available. Vs both their answer for cards like this don't care if it's an Artifact or Enchantment.

It’s also better vs all is dust from big eldrazi.

[Whitefaces]

It’s also better vs all is dust from big eldrazi.

Good point!

Doesn't stop Newmrakul though :cool:

[Minniehajj]

Eyyyy DTB status again. Does this mean we finally found Azcanta?

[wcm8]

I got first place in a small local tournament yesterday (20~ players, 5 rounds Swiss and cut to Top 8) with the following list:

4 F. Strand
4 P. Delta
1 A. Mesa
4 Island
1 Plains
1 Karakas
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island

4 Monastery Mentor
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Jace TMS

4 FoWill
3 Counterbalance
1 Soothsaying
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Search for Azcanta
2 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
1 Council's Judgment
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Flusterstorm

SB:
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Disenchant
2 Pyroblast
1 REBlast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Venser Shaper Savant
1 Containment Priest
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Izzet staticaster
1 Kozilek's Return
1 Pithing Needle
1 Blood Moon

The deck ran very well, and Search for Azcanta in particular is an amazing card. Even without SDT, Counterbalance still pulled its weight. It's arguably even better now that most players aren't expecting it as much.

Changes I would make going forward:
-1 Mentor
-1 Soothsaying
+1 Jace TMS
+1 V. Clique

SB:
-1 E. Canonist
+1 C. Priest

Soothsaying is busted in the late game in tandem with CB, but in that case it's really kind of Win-More. I would also consider running a 3rd copy of Search for Azcanta.

[Fgi_88]

hi everyone! today i've reach top4 in my LGS legacy league (33 players)
my list was: 20 lands, 2 JTMS, 3 SCM, 3 Mentor, 1 Council's Judgment, 4 Terminus, 4 STP, 4 Brainstorm, 4 ponder, 2 Portent, 2 predict, 3 CB, 2 Search, 2 Counterspell, 4 FOW Side: 2 V. Clique, 2 Pyro, 2 Surgical, 1 Containment Priest, 1 Canonist, 2 Blood Moon, 2 Wear//Tear, 1 EE, 2 Flusterstorm

I've palyed against:
Burn L 2-0,
UB reanimator w 2-0,
Eldrazi w 2-1,
Grixis delver w 2-0,
Omnitell w 2-0,
Ant ID.

In top8 i have won with Grixis Delver 2-1 and i've lost to dredge 2-0

[Whitefaces]

Congrats on the results guys, very nice! We also had three copies of Miracles in the challenge top 8 yesterday, with another finals mirror. ItIsUnfair took it down, really impressive after his second place last week.

Johan Steurs also took down the Belgian Legacy Championship this weekend.

I've started writing up a sideboard guide for the deck, so far it's covering Grixis Delver, Miracles, 4c Pile, Lands, Sneak and Show, BUG Delver, Eldrazi Stompy, Storm (ANT and TES), Death and Taxes, Aggro Loam, Dredge and Black Red Reanimator. I'll be adding more matchups to it later today.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YSymCjzSgkIrg-mPSq0aPlI1VEIYM3ZYtm7kgO7h6sI/edit#

[taconaut]

Just formatting your list to be easier to read for discussion:



my list was:

20 lands

3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Monastery Mentor

1 Council's Judgment
4 Terminus
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Portent
2 Predict
2 Search for Azcanta

2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Counterbalance

2 [Jace, the Mind Sculptor]

Side:
2 V. Clique
2 Pyro[blast?]
2 Surgical
1 Containment Priest
1 Canonist
2 Blood Moon
2 Wear//Tear
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Flusterstorm



For people running the counterbalances, do you play them aggressively early game, or later to try to lock it up? Does it differ from when top was available? How aggressively do you use cantrips to set up the top of the deck? Obviously they put even more power in your brainstorms, as they have a pseudo-counterspell mode with CB out - would you consider running a fourth Snapcaster to get even more out of them? I haven't tried it yet but I'm kinda intrigued, the card is obviously very powerful, especially if you catch more than one spell with it.

[Whitefaces]

For people running the counterbalances, do you play them aggressively early game, or later to try to lock it up? Does it differ from when top was available? How aggressively do you use cantrips to set up the top of the deck? Obviously they put even more power in your brainstorms, as they have a pseudo-counterspell mode with CB out - would you consider running a fourth Snapcaster to get even more out of them? I haven't tried it yet but I'm kinda intrigued, the card is obviously very powerful, especially if you catch more than one spell with it.

It really depends on what your hand is like and the matchup. If it's a combo matchup like storm you probably want to slam it asap, similarly with Delver though play around Daze etc. The sooner you get it down vs decks with cantrips the more impact it can have. If you draw it late, then yeah, use it to lock things up ideally. It's obviously a lot worse than with Top, but you can mostly lock people out by predicting their plays and casting Ponders/Portents or activating Jace each turn. Brainstorm is obviously great with it like you say. I don't think the fourth Snap would add a whole lot more to it though, three is quite a lot already and if you're using it to slow the game down enough to find more cantrips and Jace easily enough.

A little thing with it I've found in a similar vein to Cabal Therapy names, you sometimes want to stack the deck not for what they have a higher chance of playing, but what you're cold to. As an example in the challenge yesterday vs 4c pile I brainstormed in response to a Hymn and didn't find a Pyroblast, so hid a CB with a Jace underneath. They only have two copies of Jace usually, so it was a gamble that they don't just Pyroblast the CB, but it worked out as they had the Jace. If I hadn't, I'd have been run over by it easily. The +2 from Jace would also potentially pave the way for a Pyroblast anyway too if I didn't blind have another 1cmc underneath.

[wcm8]

Whiteface: I don't really agree with some of your sideboarding choices (or your overall deck configuration really, especially the 61st card), but here's my main suggestion:

In matchups where you need removal (e.g. 4C Leovold Control), why would you be cutting *any* copies of StP? Especially considering how important it is to answer an early Deathrite Shaman? I think you should be more willing to cut Cantrip spells instead, because the function of those cards in the first place is to find the relevant cards they're digging for -- so if there's nothing else that seems worthy of cutting, it's perfectly reasonable to cut some number of your tertiary cantrips like Portent and/or Predict to make room for your sideboard slots. This is especially true considering that if your opponent resolves a Leovold, you won't even be able to profitably cast Draw spells.

Personally, I don't like the lists that have so much 'air' (i.e. Cantrips) in them. I understand that they make it much easier to dig for particular cards and help use Terminus/Entreat and Counterbalance, but at a certain point you aren't accomplishing much and just seem to be much better off actually playing more 'action' spells. So for me right now, I think 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, and 2 Search for Azcanta seems to be plenty of filter to achieve the goals of the deck, without getting too bogged down with a bunch of do-nothing filter. I've been able to use Vendilion Clique to cast an Instant-speed Terminus (and better yet, protect her with a Karakas activation), and along with Jace there's plenty of methods of setting up the relevant interactions.

I suppose it mostly depends on how you construct the deck, but personally I prefer the fast clock provided by running 3-4 copies of main deck Monastery Mentor. Unlike Entreat, it's not a completely dead card in your opening 7, and it more readily enables you to win against otherwise heavily-unfavorable matchups, e.g Lands. To back Mentor up, I am now running 2 copies of Vendilion Clique along with 3 Snapcaster Magi to help clock the opponent.

[FavoredRevenant]

Congrats on the results guys, very nice! We also had three copies of Miracles in the challenge top 8 yesterday, with another finals mirror. ItIsUnfair took it down, really impressive after his second place last week.

Johan Steurs also took down the Belgian Legacy Championship this weekend.

I've started writing up a sideboard guide for the deck, so far it's covering Grixis Delver, Miracles, 4c Pile, Lands, Sneak and Show, BUG Delver, Eldrazi Stompy, Storm (ANT and TES), Death and Taxes, Aggro Loam, Dredge and Black Red Reanimator. I'll be adding more matchups to it later today.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YSymCjzSgkIrg-mPSq0aPlI1VEIYM3ZYtm7kgO7h6sI/edit#

That sideboard guide is awesome. Even though I don't play Miracles it's great to see what you prioritize and how you think in the matchups against the decks I DO play. I've noticed a lot of Miracles players boarding out their Terminuses against me on TES, a decision I always find silly. I'm glad that's not the prevailing wisdom. It is worth noting that with the sideboard inclusion of Past in Flames, TES does have the ability to play multiple Tendrils in a longer game. It's not worth bringing in graveyard hate for, but it shouldn't be overlooked if the opponent is committed to playing their outs.

[wcm8]

For people running the counterbalances, do you play them aggressively early game, or later to try to lock it up? Does it differ from when top was available? How aggressively do you use cantrips to set up the top of the deck? Obviously they put even more power in your brainstorms, as they have a pseudo-counterspell mode with CB out - would you consider running a fourth Snapcaster to get even more out of them? I haven't tried it yet but I'm kinda intrigued, the card is obviously very powerful, especially if you catch more than one spell with it.

Just drop them early game. If they counter it, they counter it. But if they don't, it can take over the game. Personally, I'm of the school of thought to just play into the possible counterspells (obviously, if you can afford to play around Daze then do so, and obviously if it's absolutely *critical* that you resolve something, then mitigate the risks in whichever way possible). But speaking in general, yes, I would suggest just trying to slam Counterbalance on turn 2 whenever possible. I run 3 copies in my list, so it's entirely possible to find another copy if needed.

Now, some of your other questions are very context-dependent. Against a Delver deck, I do indeed try to aggressively set it up to have a 1-cmc on top whenever possible in order to shield myself from the majority of their spells. Same goes for various forms of combo, e.g. Storm or Reanimator. Now against a Sneak and Show opponent, in the early game you generally want a 1-cmc on top to turn off their cantrips, but as the game progresses to the mid and late-game, you probably want to be floating a 3 and/or 4-cmc card on top (for SNT and Sneak Attack, respectively). In the sideboard games, if you resolved a Containment Priest (which btw, you generally want to keep in your hand and play *in response* to S&T or a Sneak Attack) you might want to keep a 2-cmc on top so as to protect it from Pyroclasm.

So basically, the answer to a lot of your questions really just depends on the specific context of the matchup and game state.

The 4th copy of Snapcaster Mage is a completely reasonable card to run, but in my list I feel like it's pretty tight as is and there's currently nothing I'd rather cut for it. Plus, Snapcaster should be seen as a 3-CMC card, so it's important to consider the overall curve of your deck.

[Whitefaces]

Whiteface: I don't really agree with some of your sideboarding choices (or your overall deck configuration really, especially the 61st card), but here's my main suggestion:

In matchups where you need removal (e.g. 4C Leovold Control), why would you be cutting *any* copies of StP? Especially considering how important it is to answer an early Deathrite Shaman? I think you should be more willing to cut Cantrip spells instead, because the function of those cards in the first place is to find the relevant cards they're digging for -- so if there's nothing else that seems worthy of cutting, it's perfectly reasonable to cut some number of your tertiary cantrips like Portent and/or Predict to make room for your sideboard slots. This is especially true considering that if your opponent resolves a Leovold, you won't even be able to profitably cast Draw spells.

Personally, I don't like the lists that have so much 'air' (i.e. Cantrips) in them. I understand that they make it much easier to dig for particular cards and help use Terminus/Entreat and Counterbalance, but at a certain point you aren't accomplishing much and just seem to be much better off actually playing more 'action' spells. So for me right now, I think 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, and 2 Search for Azcanta seems to be plenty of filter to achieve the goals of the deck, without getting too bogged down with a bunch of do-nothing filter. I've been able to use Vendilion Clique to cast an Instant-speed Terminus (and better yet, protect her with a Karakas activation), and along with Jace there's plenty of methods of setting up the relevant interactions.

I suppose it mostly depends on how you construct the deck, but personally I prefer the fast clock provided by running 3-4 copies of main deck Monastery Mentor. Unlike Entreat, it's not a completely dead card in your opening 7, and it more readily enables you to win against otherwise heavily-unfavorable matchups, e.g Lands. To back Mentor up, I am now running 2 copies of Vendilion Clique along with 3 Snapcaster Magi to help clock the opponent.


I'm not actually playing 61 cards, the little bit in the Miracles section was meant to mean I don't want to side out a Portent, but it's the worst card of what's left.

The 4c pile matchup is all about card advantage from my experience, DRS is the only creature in their deck (they sometimes have one Angler too, which is often boarded out) that you can Swords for card parity, but since we also have Terminus I'd rather leverage that and take something else with it, gaining card advantage. I also don't think DRS is that much of a must answer, not in the same was as from Grixis Delver. In fact, when I was playing 4c I was boarding out all DRSs on the draw, and two on the play since it's a low impact card in the matchup. It's great in the first, say, three turns but after that it becomes really lackluster when bigger things like Kommands, Jace, Hymns, Snaps or from Miracles Search, Counterbalance, Jace, Enteat, Mentor etc are starting to happen. I still respect it enough to leave in two copies of Swords, but it's the only creature I want to ever Swords. Leo in a pinch, but I'd prefer to be using Blasts on the stack or Terminus. I guess the fundamental point of disagreement is I don't think you 'need' removal, or at least not as much as you're suggesting.

On cutting cantrips over removal because they just find what you're looking for, this doesn't make any sense to me. It's very rare you actually want removal in the matchup, Hymns and Jaces are the scariest things they can throw at you, so cantrips let you find what you need that gets hymned away, be it action or land drops. Predict is also crucial in the matchup to recover cards after Hymns, honestly cutting it is madness to me. But since you say you don't like cantrips, this is simply two different ways of playing the deck. If anything I don't think I'm playing enough, I'd love to have the fourth Portent and a third Predict in the deck. Cantrips are busted, instant speed card advantage and velocity is too. I don't buy the 'too much air' argument either, cantrips are basically what makes this deck so great, it's the consistency and necessity to draw white cards vs creature decks and blue cards vs combo decks that makes them so important. Otherwise if you run too much action over 'air' you'll run into the midrange problem of drawing the wrong cards in the wrong matchup. Legacy doesn't allow you to do that if you're playing a control deck.



That sideboard guide is awesome. Even though I don't play Miracles it's great to see what you prioritize and how you think in the matchups against the decks I DO play. I've noticed a lot of Miracles players boarding out their Terminuses against me on TES, a decision I always find silly. I'm glad that's not the prevailing wisdom. It is worth noting that with the sideboard inclusion of Past in Flames, TES does have the ability to play multiple Tendrils in a longer game. It's not worth bringing in graveyard hate for, but it shouldn't be overlooked if the opponent is committed to playing their outs.

Glad you found it interesting! Fair point on PiF, agree it's not worth sbing GY hate for, but good to keep in mind.

[wcm8]

I think you are one of the few players who cuts removal against a deck that relies so heavily on creatures to win the game.

Yes, it's true that Terminus is the better card in this matchup, but against a decent 4C-control opponent, they're going to typically avoid over-extending into a sweeper and instead deploy few creatures at a time (barring a situation where they've stripped your hand entirely with Hymns and are able to safely pull ahead). So when they're dropping only one creature at a time, you are going to want to answer them as they come out, thus justifying keeping in all copies of Swords to Plowshares. There are likely going to be weaker spells for you to cut instead of removal, e.g. Force of Will, Portent (if you're running it).

[Minniehajj]

I think you are one of the few players who cuts removal against a deck that relies so heavily on creatures to win the game.

Yes, it's true that Terminus is the better card in this matchup, but against a decent 4C-control opponent, they're going to typically avoid over-extending into a sweeper and instead deploy few creatures at a time (barring a situation where they've stripped your hand entirely with Hymns and are able to safely pull ahead). So when they're dropping only one creature at a time, you are going to want to answer them as they come out, thus justifying keeping in all copies of Swords to Plowshares. There are likely going to be weaker spells for you to cut instead of removal, e.g. Force of Will, Portent (if you're running it).

I don't want to spend too much time on this, but suffice it to say that prevailing wisdom IS to cut StP vs Czech in some number. It's literally only good vs DRS and that's it. Every other card in their deck is a 2-for-1 that you want to fight back from a 2-for-1 axis. If their creatures hit the table, they will already be up 1 card on us, so fighting them back from an axis that involves us already being behind a card is not a winning proposition. Based on your previous posts, I don't think you fully understand the concept of Card Advantage in a deck such as Miracles or, even if you do understand it, you don't respect and and choose not to employ it in your own play. That's fine, but making sweeping generalizations that are simply untrue is a bit unwise.

[Whitefaces]

I think you are one of the few players who cuts removal against a deck that relies so heavily on creatures to win the game.

It may appear that they kill you with creatures, which when taken literally is true, it's chip damage from them. If you're using Swords on Snapcasters and Strix then you're going to run out of cards fast in conjunction to Hymns, Kommands and Jace etc. Once you've run out of cards they're gonna keep playing guys and finish you off, it's not a winning axis to fight on.

[Fgi_88]

For people running the counterbalances, do you play them aggressively early game, or later to try to lock it up? Does it differ from when top was available? How aggressively do you use cantrips to set up the top of the deck? Obviously they put even more power in your brainstorms, as they have a pseudo-counterspell mode with CB out - would you consider running a fourth Snapcaster to get even more out of them? I haven't tried it yet but I'm kinda intrigued, the card is obviously very powerful, especially if you catch more than one spell with it.

I'm playing 3 Counterbalance because i really want to slam one of them into the board as soon as possible, i've won several games yesterday simply countering stuff with it while i was sculpting my hand. Also i really want to slam a second balance into the board to be able to do tricky things with fetches and/or predict.

If you are running mentors i do not think you need the 4rth Snapcaster, but in shell with Entreat the 4rth Snapcaster can be usefull because your main plan is to survive till you are able to put into play several angry angels

[twndomn]

Just formatting your list to be easier to read for discussion:

For people running the counterbalances, do you play them aggressively early game, or later to try to lock it up? Does it differ from when top was available? How aggressively do you use cantrips to set up the top of the deck? Obviously they put even more power in your brainstorms, as they have a pseudo-counterspell mode with CB out - would you consider running a fourth Snapcaster to get even more out of them? I haven't tried it yet but I'm kinda intrigued, the card is obviously very powerful, especially if you catch more than one spell with it.

Though you don't want to run into Daze, it's completely reasonable to jam CB in the early turns. In MU against Storm variant, it's almost imperative to find CB and jam it ASAP, flipping 0-1-2-4 are all very powerful in this case.

The number of Abrupt Decays has also been on the upswing recently, CB can become a Decay bait if you intend to jam Mentor in the next following turns.

Using cantrips to set up CB is a bit situational dependent, I don't think there's a set of rules to go by. Against combo decks, I would conserve cantrips for the key combo pieces. Against non-combo, using cantrips to set up CB flip for opponent's permanent generates a lot more values than spells (unless the spell is Ancestral Vision per se). Another use of cantrip set up is putting FoW under your Entreat/Mentor to push through your win-con.

[wcm8]

It may appear that they kill you with creatures, which when taken literally is true, it's chip damage from them. If you're using Swords on Snapcasters and Strix then you're going to run out of cards fast in conjunction to Hymns, Kommands and Jace etc. Once you've run out of cards they're gonna keep playing guys and finish you off, it's not a winning axis to fight on.

The bigger problem is not having a timely answer to Leovold. You won't always get to sandbag a Red Blast to deal with him on the stack, nor will you always have a Terminus set up in time. Them drawing one card from a StP is a fair trade for not shutting off your entire cantrip engine. It seems like most Miracles players are running stuff like Izzet Staticaster and Kozilek's Return as sideboard sweepers, so you don't have that many options to cleanly answer a resolved Leovold. Furthermore, many 4C decks are running bigger threats like Angler and occasionally Tasigur. Obviously it makes sense to leave in Predict to keep up with 4C's card draw/advantage, but at a certain point it seems like dropping StP in favor of Portent/Preordain is going to lose you some games.

[Whitefaces]

The bigger problem is not having a timely answer to Leovold. You won't always get to sandbag a Red Blast to deal with him on the stack, nor will you always have a Terminus set up in time. Them drawing one card from a StP is a fair trade for not shutting off your entire cantrip engine. It seems like most Miracles players are running stuff like Izzet Staticaster and Kozilek's Return as sideboard sweepers, so you don't have that many options to cleanly answer a resolved Leovold. Furthermore, many 4C decks are running bigger threats like Angler and occasionally Tasigur. Obviously it makes sense to leave in Predict to keep up with 4C's card draw/advantage, but at a certain point it seems like dropping StP in favor of Portent/Preordain is going to lose you some games.

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree then, if your approach is working for you keep at it, mine is working for me.

Sometimes you get punked by a turn three Leo and you're just on cantrips, and it feels awful. But I've lost many more games by having Swords rot in my hand when they're attacking from other angles and I can't interact. If you want to put it in 'not always have it', postboard there are 3 blasts, 2 stp, 3 terminus, 1 CJ and 2 Counterspell vs 2 copies of their Leos. More often than not you're casting cantrips the first few turns too, I do keep Leo in mind when doing so. Blast also answers Leo on the battlefield, it's just not as good.

[It Is Unfair]

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree then, if your approach is working for you keep at it, mine is working for me.

Sometimes you get punked by a turn three Leo and you're just on cantrips, and it feels awful. But I've lost many more games by having Swords rot in my hand when they're attacking from other angles and I can't interact. If you want to put it in 'not always have it', postboard there are 3 blasts, 2 stp, 3 terminus, 1 CJ and 2 Counterspell vs 2 copies of their Leos. More often than not you're casting cantrips the first few turns too, I do keep Leo in mind when doing so. Blast also answers Leo on the battlefield, it's just not as good.
I agree with you, they are not agresive enough that you should have to keep in all Swords to Plowshares.

With my last list in the recent legacy challenge I boarded down to 1 stp in these matchups I believe.

[Zday12345]

Hey there everyone, I recently picked the deck up both in paper and online and have been testing a few different versions of it. Honestly so far I've enjoyed this UW list the most, it has felt very close to my playstyle and so far has been solid during testing.

UW Miracles

MD 60

Lands 20
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
1 Karakas
5 Island
2 Plains

Creatures 3
3 Snapcaster Mage

Instant/Sorcery 30
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Portent
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterspell
1 Supreme Verdict
4 Force of Will
3 Terminus
1 Entreat the Angels
3 Predict

Enchantment 4
2 Search for Azcanta
2 Counterbalance

Planeswalker 3
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard 15

Creatures 5
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Monastery Mentor
1 Vendilion Clique

Instant/Sorcery 8
3 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Disenchant
1 Council's Judgment

Enchantment 1
1 Back to Basics

Planeswalker 1
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar


So far between playing in paper and jamming two player queues on MTGO, I've had trouble with burn and UR delver (BUG and Grixis are not really problematic outside of BUG's hymns) 4c has felt somewhat close to even, but the boarded games where I draw BtB or Gideon are usually blown wide open. I'm not super convinced I need one of each of these, and could see dropping Gideon for another BtB, or just dropping one or the other for something like Null Rod that has more applications against combo decks, although so far I've felt fairly well positioned against them.

Matches so far

2-1 VS Mono red Sneak Attack
2-0 VS UWR Miracles (At least 2 Counterbalance)
2-0 VS A weird UR Goblins list that splashed for BS/Ponder/Force of will, unsure what else but seemed spicy
2-1 VS Infect
2-1 VS ANT
1-2 VS Burn
1-2 VS Infect
0-2 VS Death and Taxes
2-1 VS BR Reanimator.
1-2 VS 4c Pile
2-1 VS 4c Pile
1-2 VS UR Delver
2-1 VS Grixis Delver

These have been split up between paper testing and MTGO results, but so far the list feels really strong. Would appreciate any criticisms or comments that people have, as I said I'm new to the deck and looking to learn and grow as a player with it. :) Thanks for reading.

[mossivo1986]

You lost ALOT of matches a counterbalance based deck "should" win. Thats probobly why without top its pretty weak.

Also where are your win conditions. This seems like a bigger problem.

[Stefanogs]

I agree with you, they are not agresive enough that you should have to keep in all Swords to Plowshares.

With my last list in the recent legacy challenge I boarded down to 1 stp in these matchups I believe.

I usually play with 3 stp, 3 terminus and 1 council's after board against Pile. STP is more for Shaman than Leo. Their manabase is so fragile that plow first shaman give us time to setup our game. Anyway, seems ok to side out more stps, but need to kp at least 3 sweepers in this matchup.





You lost ALOT of matches a counterbalance based deck "should" win. Thats probobly why without top its pretty weak.

Also where are your win conditions. This seems like a bigger problem.

My biggest issue with Azcanta miracles is that this is not a "counterbalance based deck"... It's a powerful control deck that uses counterbalance... With sooth miracles i have the straight plan to abuse of counterbalance. Well, that's not really an issue but it's something important when choosing the version of miracles you want to play.

[mossivo1986]

Thats a very weak argument. Your either trying to lock the board down while searching for your win condition or whats the point? Why is this "still" better then traditional UWX landstill or a tempo variant.

[Stefanogs]

Which argument? I don't want to convince anyone to play with a particular version. I enjoy playing with counterbalance, that's why i play ss/cb. Some people enjoy real card advantage... so they play 3-4 predicts and/or 1-2 azcantas.

Though strong, standstill's shell is inferior to miracles (to be clear: i like it and played +- 600 matches with it this year). It's easy to play and strong but some flaws prevent it from being tier 1 today: the main issue is the difficult to play around delver, rishadan port or aether vial. There's also weak manabase (you cant play 3 colors, need to choose between uw, ur and ub)... Anyway it's fun an have good matchup against control and combo.

[Jsang]

In a strategic perspective, CB is for playing a game from too being 'passive'. It is always better to present a 'threat' than sitting with a bunch of countermagic and removals. I like the filtering part of Search as well; it is definitely what the deck want in the early game while the flipped side is 'win more' for me, under my limited testings. My current config is 3 CB, 1 Search and 1 Back to Basic. Back to Basic is a blowout card against Eldrazi and 4cc, it can serve as an answer to punishing fire as well.

Regarding win cons, I have been trying 2 JTMS 1 Gideon and 4 Snap; it works for me so far. Gideon has outperformed my expectation, and his ability to close out the game fast cannot be underestimated. I would see myself to sub one snap with a mentor or EtA.

Just my 0.02.

[Agrippa91]

Honest question from a BUG shadow/delver player: Are you really able to “dodge decays” nowadays withoit top? I read the miracles matchup guide on reddit by WhiteFaces. While I found the insights very true from the matchups I'm familiar with from the other side of the table this was the one thing where I thought “really?”.

So let's pretend for a moment that you're facing BUG delver with hymns and sylvan library . Because you （yes, you!）are an insane mind reader you know that I brought in all the decays I have.
Well, what now? Are you seriously considering playing the sideboarded games without counterbalance, mentor AND search?
That seems like a very weak strategy in my experience. I've lost more than 1 game because my miracles opponent landed a counterbalance without me having an answer. If he then manages to get down second proactive card I have to decay it's already gg 99％ of the time, there's almost no way I'd naturally draw two decays before you're firmly in the driver seat.
Same with search or mentor: What's the worst that could happen? Even if I immeditely have an answer it's like “whatever, let's try ask the decay question again in a few turns”. The upside of me unable to answer your question is huge: You just run away with the game be it with card advantage or an army of monks.

[Nestalim]

Honest question from a BUG shadow/delver player: Are you really able to “dodge decays” nowadays withoit top? I read the miracles matchup guide on reddit by WhiteFaces. While I found the insights very true from the matchups I'm familiar with from the other side of the table this was the one thing where I thought “really?”.

So let's pretend for a moment that you're facing BUG delver with hymns and sylvan library . Because you （yes, you!）are an insane mind reader you know that I brought in all the decays I have.
Well, what now? Are you seriously considering playing the sideboarded games without counterbalance, mentor AND search?
That seems like a very weak strategy in my experience. I've lost more than 1 game because my miracles opponent landed a counterbalance without me having an answer. If he then manages to get down second proactive card I have to decay it's already gg 99％ of the time, there's almost no way I'd naturally draw two decays before you're firmly in the driver seat.
Same with search or mentor: What's the worst that could happen? Even if I immeditely have an answer it's like “whatever, let's try ask the decay question again in a few turns”. The upside of me unable to answer your question is huge: You just run away with the game be it with card advantage or an army of monks.

You don't, you just overwhelm them by bringing Blood Moon.

[Wurst_]

Congrats on the results guys, very nice! We also had three copies of Miracles in the challenge top 8 yesterday, with another finals mirror. ItIsUnfair took it down, really impressive after his second place last week.

Johan Steurs also took down the Belgian Legacy Championship this weekend.

I've started writing up a sideboard guide for the deck, so far it's covering Grixis Delver, Miracles, 4c Pile, Lands, Sneak and Show, BUG Delver, Eldrazi Stompy, Storm (ANT and TES), Death and Taxes, Aggro Loam, Dredge and Black Red Reanimator. I'll be adding more matchups to it later today.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YSymCjzSgkIrg-mPSq0aPlI1VEIYM3ZYtm7kgO7h6sI/edit#

What does your Sideboarding-Strategy against elves look like? i came upm with something like
-2 Predict,
-1 Jace
-1 Plains
+ Containment Priest
+ Supreme Verdict
+ Councils Judgement
+ Counterbalance

Here my current deckliste for reference:
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Monastery Mentor

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Portent
2 Predict

4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
1 Councils Judgement
1 Engineered Explosives

3 Jace, TMS
2 Search for Azcanta
2 Counterbalance

20 Lands

[twndomn]

Honest question from a BUG shadow/delver player: Are you really able to “dodge decays” nowadays withoit top? I read the miracles matchup guide on reddit by WhiteFaces. While I found the insights very true from the matchups I'm familiar with from the other side of the table this was the one thing where I thought “really?”.



Most players either dodge Decay by cutting CB, or by overloading Decay by SB-in Mentors. I'm on the side of overloading Decay. It's no secret that Delver decks cut creature removal or just removal in general against Miracles. Ever since Hans won Eternal Weekends with Tombstalkers MD and Jace SB, there're more incentives than ever to SB-in more creatures to 1) Overwhelm decay targets 2) Interact against BUG's planeswalkers.


What does your Sideboarding-Strategy against elves look like? i came upm with something like
-2 Predict,
-1 Jace
-1 Plains
+ Containment Priest
+ Supreme Verdict
+ Councils Judgement
+ Counterbalance


First of all, the archetype is called Elf combo. It has the word combo in it. Yes, you might just die to creature beats, but you really need to focus on the combo aspect of it. Second, didn't other Miracles experts say never cut Cantrips? If there's such MU that should cut cantrips, this MU is definitely not it. My question to everyone is that: What does Jace do in this MU? It does nothing against Glimpse, nothing against Natural Order. I mean, you could float Jace for CB to flip a Natural Order, that's about it. Jace is not going to matter until you have at least hold off Elf player's first combo attempt. Its only purpose is to do a CMC 4 Brainstorm to put Terminus back, and you might just expose yourself to stuff like Choke by doing so.

[Whitefaces]

What does your Sideboarding-Strategy against elves look like? i came upm with something like
-2 Predict,
-1 Jace
-1 Plains
+ Containment Priest
+ Supreme Verdict
+ Councils Judgement
+ Counterbalance

Here my current deckliste for reference:
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Monastery Mentor

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Portent
2 Predict

4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
1 Councils Judgement
1 Engineered Explosives

3 Jace, TMS
2 Search for Azcanta
2 Counterbalance

20 Lands

Elves can be tricky, they attack us from a couple of different angles and both deserve respect. I'll be honest and say I don't actually know if there is or what the consensus of sideboarding vs us is, I've had players board out Natural Orders, or bring in discard like Cabal Therapy and Thoughtseize to clear the way for them.

Their plans are either; clear the way for NO and Hoof us, or grind us with Visionary and Symbiote shenanigans etc usually. Nissa, Vital Force is fairly common too and can be tough to beat.

I change up the countermagic suite when boarding, but it changes based on the play/draw more than any other matchup. Their pivotal turn is usually three, sometimes four, so in respects to that I cut all Counterspells on the draw and keep all Force of Will, on the play I'll keep Counterspell and go down to two Force of Will. I generally bring in all copies of Flusterstorm, if you have three then you could probably shave a Counterspell on the play too, not 100% on this though. Although CS is technically live on their turn three, there's a good chance we need some more pieces of interaction, or cantrip to find Terminus, CS itself etc. It's not reliable enough to have naturally on turn two imo.

Predict is very good in the matchup, it can try to combat their grindy plan, but most importantly it's an instant speed way to draw a Terminus. It's not a cantrip as the poster above said, it's a CA tool with synergies in the deck. As a rule of thumb if I'm not siding out Terminus I won't side out Predict either, exceptions are something like Lake of the Dead Reanimator decks with Grave Titan I guess, there are some oddballs out there.

Shaving a Jace is good, he's great in the matchup but really as a followup to Terminus. He doesn't die often, so the two copies should be enough. As a general gameplan I'm trying to not die (heh) in the early turns, then curve into turn five with a Terminus into Jace. It sounds like wonderland, but with all our cantrips and them having to respect Terminus from us, it's not that hard to set up. It's an idea to play for at least, rather than just 'try to answer everything they do'.

I wouldn't board in CJ, it's slow and clunky, really the only good targets are Nissa and potentially Choke or Gaddock Teeg. Teeg is pretty uncommon as it hoses them a lot too, and Choke I sometimes hedge G2 by bringing in a Disenchant, depends how I feel. Priest and CB are great, good to board in, SV is fine. Bit slow, but it's a wrath vs the creature deck.

Regarding boarding out a land, I don't do it in this matchup. While they don't punish our mana at all, we can't afford to be using cantrips on hitting land drops generally imo, we need to dig for answers. I know some other players like to take out one though.

So I guess with your build, assuming you have at least two Flusters in the sb, I'd go something like.

OTP:
-2 FoW
-1 Jace
-1 CJ
-1 CS (it's fine otp as I said above, but I think the other options you have are better)

+2 Fluster
+1 Priest
+1 CB
+1 SV

OTD:
-1 Jace
-1 CJ
-2 CS

+2 Fluster (would also be bringing in a third otd if available
+1 Priest
+1 SV

There's a slight imbalance since you want the CB too, but maybe it's the card to not board in here. I'm not sure actually. Anyway, that's my thoughts on the MU, I'll get around to updating the google doc with Elves and some other matchups soon hopefully! Hope this helped.


First of all, the archetype is called Elf combo. It has the word combo in it. Yes, you might just die to creature beats, but you really need to focus on the combo aspect of it. Second, didn't other Miracles experts say never cut Cantrips? If there's such MU that should cut cantrips, this MU is definitely not it. My question to everyone is that: What does Jace do in this MU? It does nothing against Glimpse, nothing against Natural Order. I mean, you could float Jace for CB to flip a Natural Order, that's about it. Jace is not going to matter until you have at least hold off Elf player's first combo attempt. Its only purpose is to do a CMC 4 Brainstorm to put Terminus back, and you might just expose yourself to stuff like Choke by doing so.

:eyebrow: Everyone calls it Elves...

Jaces pulls you ahead, you need to do that at some point.

[Minniehajj]

I've updated the original post + subsequent posts with the entirety of Whitefaces's and ItIsUnfair's documents regarding deckbuilding theory, matchup analysis, and sideboarding, as well as including the source documents for suggestions and reference. I've also edited the original post to reflect current decklists since the prior ones were a bit out of date. In the coming weeks, I'll be adding more to the history section as well as the tips and tricks section, perhaps even doing some of my own video content to address them as I prefer that medium of communication. Let me know if anyone has any comments or concerns!

[jubeininja69]

I'm currently playing with 4 flooded strands and 4 polutted deltas...why the single arid mesa?

i only have a spare scaldng tarn so can it replace that single arid mesa?

[Whitefaces]

I'm currently playing with 4 flooded strands and 4 polutted deltas...why the single arid mesa?

i only have a spare scaldng tarn so can it replace that single arid mesa?

It's to have another source for basic Plains. Ideally you'd want it, but if you're not playing in any bigger events then Deltas are fine. If you're not playing this extra white fetch, then it's actually a little bit better to keep it all Deltas with no Tarn since that's another 4-of in the deck that you can sometimes hit with a blind Predict. With no basic mountain, Scalding Tarn and Polluted Delta do the exact same thing.

Fwiw if you're playing with Mentors and no Entreats then all blue fetches is better since you generally only need to be fetching out one Plains.

[twndomn]

I'm currently playing with 4 flooded strands and 4 polutted deltas...why the single arid mesa?

i only have a spare scaldng tarn so can it replace that single arid mesa?

There's only one MU that the fetches would make a significant difference, that is against lands. In this MU, Lands would try to lockdown your white sources before they make 20/20. To go around that, in general, you want to leave Flooded Strand and/or Arid Mesa un-cracked. Say you have only one fetchland in play, you force them to have to either Port twice, or Waste-then-Port because you're cracking the fetchland into a Plains. If it's Delta or Tarn, then you're converting to a Tundra, which is more vulnerable to Wasteland. If you already have Tundra in play tapped, or if your Tundra already got Wasted, Lands player might not believe you having more Tundra in the library.

IMHO, the difference in percentage in blind Predict or in blind Needle is rather small.

[Wurst_]

First of all, the archetype is called Elf combo. It has the word combo in it. Yes, you might just die to creature beats, but you really need to focus on the combo aspect of it. Second, didn't other Miracles experts say never cut Cantrips? If there's such MU that should cut cantrips, this MU is definitely not it. My question to everyone is that: What does Jace do in this MU? It does nothing against Glimpse, nothing against Natural Order. I mean, you could float Jace for CB to flip a Natural Order, that's about it. Jace is not going to matter until you have at least hold off Elf player's first combo attempt. Its only purpose is to do a CMC 4 Brainstorm to put Terminus back, and you might just expose yourself to stuff like Choke by doing so.

actually, i think this deck can never board out more that one jace. It is likely the most powerful card in your deck, even if not the best in all matchups. Elves can grind you out like no other deck and you need something to pull ahead or they will just bury you in cardadvantage


Elves can be tricky, they attack us from a couple of different angles and both deserve respect. I'll be honest and say I don't actually know if there is or what the consensus of sideboarding vs us is, I've had players board out Natural Orders, or bring in discard like Cabal Therapy and Thoughtseize to clear the way for them.

Their plans are either; clear the way for NO and Hoof us, or grind us with Visionary and Symbiote shenanigans etc usually. Nissa, Vital Force is fairly common too and can be tough to beat.

I change up the countermagic suite when boarding, but it changes based on the play/draw more than any other matchup. Their pivotal turn is usually three, sometimes four, so in respects to that I cut all Counterspells on the draw and keep all Force of Will, on the play I'll keep Counterspell and go down to two Force of Will. I generally bring in all copies of Flusterstorm, if you have three then you could probably shave a Counterspell on the play too, not 100% on this though. Although CS is technically live on their turn three, there's a good chance we need some more pieces of interaction, or cantrip to find Terminus, CS itself etc. It's not reliable enough to have naturally on turn two imo.

Predict is very good in the matchup, it can try to combat their grindy plan, but most importantly it's an instant speed way to draw a Terminus. It's not a cantrip as the poster above said, it's a CA tool with synergies in the deck. As a rule of thumb if I'm not siding out Terminus I won't side out Predict either, exceptions are something like Lake of the Dead Reanimator decks with Grave Titan I guess, there are some oddballs out there.

Shaving a Jace is good, he's great in the matchup but really as a followup to Terminus. He doesn't die often, so the two copies should be enough. As a general gameplan I'm trying to not die (heh) in the early turns, then curve into turn five with a Terminus into Jace. It sounds like wonderland, but with all our cantrips and them having to respect Terminus from us, it's not that hard to set up. It's an idea to play for at least, rather than just 'try to answer everything they do'.

I wouldn't board in CJ, it's slow and clunky, really the only good targets are Nissa and potentially Choke or Gaddock Teeg. Teeg is pretty uncommon as it hoses them a lot too, and Choke I sometimes hedge G2 by bringing in a Disenchant, depends how I feel. Priest and CB are great, good to board in, SV is fine. Bit slow, but it's a wrath vs the creature deck.

Regarding boarding out a land, I don't do it in this matchup. While they don't punish our mana at all, we can't afford to be using cantrips on hitting land drops generally imo, we need to dig for answers. I know some other players like to take out one though.

So I guess with your build, assuming you have at least two Flusters in the sb, I'd go something like.

OTP:
-2 FoW
-1 Jace
-1 CJ
-1 CS (it's fine otp as I said above, but I think the other options you have are better)

+2 Fluster
+1 Priest
+1 CB
+1 SV

OTD:
-1 Jace
-1 CJ
-2 CS

+2 Fluster (would also be bringing in a third otd if available
+1 Priest
+1 SV

There's a slight imbalance since you want the CB too, but maybe it's the card to not board in here. I'm not sure actually. Anyway, that's my thoughts on the MU, I'll get around to updating the google doc with Elves and some other matchups soon hopefully! Hope this helped.

i get why you don't like judgement in this matchup but it is the best answer to something like nissa we can get. Maybe leaving just the single judgement in and not boarding in the second is fine too. What i don't like about flusterstorm is usually that you can not hande cradle which makes it easiert for them to play around flusterstorm, but of course that would make them put more creatures on the battlefield which likely is ok for us. I will try that too.
WhiteFaces, what is your Opinion on Monastery Mentor and why do you prefer Entreat in the Maindeck?

[Minniehajj]

WhiteFaces, what is your Opinion on Monastery Mentor and why do you prefer Entreat in the Maindeck?

Read this :)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zmQGoNoI7r7wzxULppatGKXo7VoruSf18S8TsiySJOQ/edit

[wweenieking]

Can someone send me an invite to the discord chat? My chat name is snowfall1186. Thanks!

[Stefanogs]

Can someone send me an invite to the discord chat? My chat name is snowfall1186. Thanks!

Hey!

https://discord.gg/e2G7mRG

[wweenieking]

Hey!

https://discord.gg/e2G7mRG

Thanks!

[Kyuuri117]

Don't have much experience with Miracles, either pre or post top ban, but took the below list to a weekly tournament last Saturday and went 4-0 with it, beating Eldrazi, Abzan Pox and 2 Czech Pile

3 Monastery Mentor
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
3 JTMS

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Council's Judgment
3 Terminus
4 Force of Will
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Counterbalance
3 Search for Azcanta

4 Island
1 Plains
2 Volc Island
3 Tundra
9 Fetchlands
1 Karakas

SB
1 REB
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Disenchant (could not find wear/tear's)
2 Rest in Peace
1 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar

Didn't write down notes about the tournament so won't go into huge detail on the report, but i'll give some synopsis

Czech Pile l 2-0

Both games felt pretty easy, and while my opponent is someone I know well and a good magic player, he's just gotten into Legacy recently and wasn't playing optimally. That aside, nothing in the deck aside from JTMS and DRS felt like a threat to the deck. Game one he had a t1 DRS which I couldn't get rid of until I was at 10 ish life (couldn't find a plow or terminus or judgment), but nothing else from him hit the board with counterbalance getting some nice blind hits as well as some set up ones with brainstorm. Search for Azcanta ran away with the game once it flipped. Game two felt very similar, with pyroblast getting rid of his early JTMS and Search for Azcanta outvaluing him enough for Mentor + friends to take the game. The one time he was able to land a Leovold, I karakased it and then Vclique'd it away.

Eldrazi 2-1

Game one he was on the play, and I had kept double force double blue card, so of course he's got tomb into t1 chalice on 1, turn two chalice on 1. By the time I was drawing my second card of the game, i was already out of gas. Wasn't a blistering quick game, but I could not catch up.

Game two he kept a slow hand, and i've brought in the 2 disenchants and ceremonious rejection for the 3 counterbalances. His turn 2 chalice was immediately disenchanted, and I was able to out tempo him early by plow/snap/plowing his dudes when he was trying to equip to to Jitte, as he didn't have enough lands to play more guys in those turns allowing me to stabilize and win with the Vclique I had played earlier.

Game three was very lucky I think. I had 2 plow in my opening hand so his turn 2 TKS didn't run away with the game, and a timely terminus stopped me from taking ten to the face midgame. I then hit ceremonious rejection a few turns later with a snapcaster in hand to stop two more TKS's tutored up with Eye of Ugin, with a mentor on board, and was able to close the game out before Eye outvalued me.

Pox 2-0

This did not feel like a terrible matchup, though it's not one i've played before with Miracles. Saved FoW for his smallpox's, got rid of Lotv's with Judgment's and EExplosives, and was able to close the games out with mentors and JTMS. Also had some lucky blind counterbalance hits which was nice. Search for Az was very nice here helping me to filter away what I didn't need depending on the type of disruption he was presenting (land destruction vs hand disruption)

Czech Pile 2-1

Much more experienced Czech Pile player, all the games were super tight and a lot of fun. Lost game 1 to DRS and Stryx's after again being unable to find an early plow for it. Games two and three the REB/Pyro's, 2 RiP's and Gideon came in, all of them doing a lot of work. Game two RIP stalled his value plan long enough for me to stabilize and Pyro stopped his Jace immediately, and game 3 he was unable to deal with the knight ally token army and ended up showing me two Pyro's/REB's in his hand after the game.

All in all, the list felt very solid (though I did feel very lucky to win that Eldrazi matchup). The only thing I was unhappy about was how poorly counterbalance and search for azcanta play with Engineered explosives, primarily in the Czech pile matchup. EE being able to get rid of any of their threats (and potentially multiple strix's/snapcasters) is not something I'm cutting. but I feel like losing to strix/snapcaster beats is one of the easier ways to lose to Czech pile if you can't find a terminus, as you're not wasting a plow on those. That said, you're also shooting yourself in the foot if you've got your enchantments in play. Unfortunately it doesn't seem like there's a better alternative...

Also going to be adding a second ceremonious rejection to the board. Feel like it's needed in my meta. The eldrazi player is a constant and the pox player is 90% of the time on MUD. I should probably be playing a third one tbh...

[twndomn]

Don't have much experience with Miracles, either pre or post top ban, but took the below list to a weekly tournament last Saturday and went 4-0 with it, beating Eldrazi, Abzan Pox and 2 Czech Pile

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Search for Azcanta


I'll just be upfront about it: dislike your list. To be specific, I believe that the theoretical backing is coming from Itsunfair: you Need certain amount of cantrips to stabilize your draws, as well as making your land drop on turns. I can imagine that you will run into openings in which you rely heavily on Search to find your land. If Search did not resolve or gets decay asap, you might get stuck on 2 lands. I would recommend to add either 2 Predict or 2 Portent to boost your cantrip count, -2 Clique.

I know that I have seen this exact 3 CB 3 Search setup from somewhere else, but I don't think I have ever seen 3 CB 3 Search 2 Clique. Clique is probably better off coming from SB, if at all.

[It Is Unfair]

Also going to be adding a second ceremonious rejection to the board. Feel like it's needed in my meta. The eldrazi player is a constant and the pox player is 90% of the time on MUD. I should probably be playing a third one tbh...

The main problem with ceremonious rejection is that it doesn't work very well against Chalice, which is the main way eldrazi & mud beats us. You rarely die with a disenchant in hand to a attacking creature in my experience, and if so they likely had a cavern of souls anyways. There is also the problem of Rejection not being a card you can board in against literally anything else. While cards like CJ or Disenchant you can board in against all kinds of decks, like any Stoneforge Mystic deck for example. If you are really afraid of eldrazi or mud and don't want to just play more than 4-5 disenchant effects (really diminishing returns) you have two options I think, you can either play cards like null rod against mud, or needle/spyglass against eldrazi (name eye of ugin) or mud (name all kinds of stuff), or you can play land hate, Back to Basics, Blood Moon, From the Ashes, etc are all fairly common options others play. I like both of these options more than rejection, they are simply way higher power level, and the only downside is that they cost slightly more mana.

Other than that I also don't like only 8 cantrips 20 lands. Either play more cantrips (like everyone else is doing right now), or play more lands (Like Joe or Reid or a few others did pre ban).

[JackaBo]

The main problem with ceremonious rejection is that it doesn't work very well against Chalice, which is the main way eldrazi & mud beats us. You rarely die with a disenchant in hand to a attacking creature in my experience, and if so they likely had a cavern of souls anyways. There is also the problem of Rejection not being a card you can board in against literally anything else. While cards like CJ or Disenchant you can board in against all kinds of decks, like any Stoneforge Mystic deck for example. If you are really afraid of eldrazi or mud and don't want to just play more than 4-5 disenchant effects (really diminishing returns) you have two options I think, you can either play cards like null rod against mud, or needle/spyglass against eldrazi (name eye of ugin) or mud (name all kinds of stuff), or you can play land hate, Back to Basics, Blood Moon, From the Ashes, etc are all fairly common options others play. I like both of these options more than rejection, they are simply way higher power level, and the only downside is that they cost slightly more mana.

Other than that I also don't like only 8 cantrips 20 lands. Either play more cantrips (like everyone else is doing right now), or play more lands (Like Joe or Reid or a few others did pre ban).

Yeah cerimonious should be a zero off in the SB, it's way too narrow. Not to me mention the most common targets are either played turn 1 (vial, chalice), is cheated in (equipment) or is played with cavern (eldrazi). If it were a colorless blast then sure but you should rather play answers (CJ, disenchant) and actual counterspell. Spell Pierce is a good card versus staxlike decks.

[twndomn]

:eyebrow: Everyone calls it Elves...

Jaces pulls you ahead, you need to do that at some point.

I noticed Whitefaces in Legacy challenge is now running
3 Flusterstorm
3 Pyroblast
1 REB

Since he's not the only one (Das actually went for the full 4-4), I am now wondering is this a MTGO inbreed meta thing, or is this applicable to the paper Legacy events?

One card I feel the community has overlooked is Spell Snare. In this meta, this card is useful pretty much all the time. Often a player gains edges with Snapcaster, in which SS can cut off. Other Notable targets are Hymn/Chalice on 1/YP/Infernal Tutor/Sylvan Library/Collective Brutality/Dark Confidant. Yes, I'm aware that the power of SS is drastically reduced if your opponent Probes you first, and it can still be blasted on stack; however, I'm now experimenting with
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
3 Spell Snare

Don't have conclusive results yet, feel free to give it a try.

[Whitefaces]

I noticed Whitefaces in Legacy challenge is now running
3 Flusterstorm
3 Pyroblast
1 REB

Since he's not the only one (Das actually went for the full 4-4), I am now wondering is this a MTGO inbreed meta thing, or is this applicable to the paper Legacy events?

One card I feel the community has overlooked is Spell Snare. In this meta, this card is useful pretty much all the time. Often a player gains edges with Snapcaster, in which SS can cut off. Other Notable targets are Hymn/Chalice on 1/YP/Infernal Tutor/Sylvan Library/Collective Brutality/Dark Confidant. Yes, I'm aware that the power of SS is drastically reduced if your opponent Probes you first, and it can still be blasted on stack; however, I'm now experimenting with
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
3 Spell Snare

Don't have conclusive results yet, feel free to give it a try.

Yeah, it's a bit of an mtgo thing, there's loads of mirrors at the moment especially. Online I am playing 3 CB maindeck and 4 Blasts sb usually, but I'm playing a bigger event this weekend where I'm going to 2 CB for a 3rd Predict in the main and 3 blasts in the side as I expect a bit less blue, bit more unknown. Though the numbers either way are solid I think, it depends if you know the meta you're playing in. I know that here in the UK there's a lot of DnT at least, and other random non-blue decks. I've been on 3 Flusters for quite a while though, I'd play that online and irl.

Spell Snare is quite high variance imo, when it's good its insane, and there's a lot of good targets in the format atm that we care about, the mirror especially and it's great vs pile. It's pretty poor vs Grixis Delver, though, which is rough. It also has diminishing returns, so I'd play two at the very max personally.

[Eldrazi Grandfather]

Hello, I' m a new miracle player. I play 2 volcanic island and 3 pyroblast in side; versus the new 4C leovold with 2-3 wasteland is safe to play with only two volcanic or I have to increase the number of red sources? Thx

[It Is Unfair]

Hello, I' m a new miracle player. I play 2 volcanic island and 3 pyroblast in side; versus the new 4C leovold with 2-3 wasteland is safe to play with only two volcanic or I have to increase the number of red sources? Thx
If your only red cards are 3 blasts I think 2 volcanic is enough and preferred. You might run into a game where you get wasted of red but still have 1 blast left in the deck and lose because of it, but it will probably less often than the other alternative (losing game 1 against a wasteland deck because you drew multiple volcanics). If you play any more red spells that you want to board in against wasteland decks (pyroclasm for example, or a 4th blast) then I would would play the 3rd volcanic (or a sideboard basic mountain).

[Eldrazi Grandfather]

I see that many list don't run containment priest in sodeboard; is the game vs show n tell winnable without her?

[Kyuuri117]

Yeah cerimonious should be a zero off in the SB, it's way too narrow. Not to me mention the most common targets are either played turn 1 (vial, chalice), is cheated in (equipment) or is played with cavern (eldrazi). If it were a colorless blast then sure but you should rather play answers (CJ, disenchant) and actual counterspell. Spell Pierce is a good card versus staxlike decks.

If I were bringing the deck to a large event I would swap up my sideboard a bit, but as I know for a fact that two of the 8-12 decks in my local tournament are going to be Eldrazi and MUD on a consistent basis, I don't see why it's bad. Sure, if they get an early chalice on one down it's an issue... but ceremonious rejection or not, that's going to be an issue. I do have the two disenchants in the board already and bring those in. Are you suggesting I bump that up to three or four instead? I understand that ceremonious rejection isn't useful against other decks and that cavern of souls exists, but getting turn 2-3 TKS'd, or thorns into trinisphere'd, just puts you so far behind that I feel like they're worth the slot.

About running more cantrips, I probably should. I have found that the additional three drops have been very useful with counterbalance in the list though, and abrupt decay is at an all time low these days so not too worried about it hitting search for azcanta.

On another note, is it just universally agreed upon that mentor is the best finisher right now? Is Entreat the Angels generally outclassed at this point? Was interested in messing around with it.

[Whitefaces]

If I were bringing the deck to a large event I would swap up my sideboard a bit, but as I know for a fact that two of the 8-12 decks in my local tournament are going to be Eldrazi and MUD on a consistent basis, I don't see why it's bad. Sure, if they get an early chalice on one down it's an issue... but ceremonious rejection or not, that's going to be an issue. I do have the two disenchants in the board already and bring those in. Are you suggesting I bump that up to three or four instead? I understand that ceremonious rejection isn't useful against other decks and that cavern of souls exists, but getting turn 2-3 TKS'd, or thorns into trinisphere'd, just puts you so far behind that I feel like they're worth the slot.

About running more cantrips, I probably should. I have found that the additional three drops have been very useful with counterbalance in the list though, and abrupt decay is at an all time low these days so not too worried about it hitting search for azcanta.

On another note, is it just universally agreed upon that mentor is the best finisher right now? Is Entreat the Angels generally outclassed at this point? Was interested in messing around with it.

If your meta is heavily skewed with colourless decks then by all means run Rejections, just understand that's it's not a good choice for the deck for anyone else so that's the angle they're coming from when condemning it.

I wrote up something small recently on win cons - https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zmQGoNoI7r7wzxULppatGKXo7VoruSf18S8TsiySJOQ/edit

[twndomn]

About running more cantrips, I probably should. I have found that the additional three drops have been very useful with counterbalance in the list though, and abrupt decay is at an all time low these days so not too worried about it hitting search for azcanta.

On another note, is it just universally agreed upon that mentor is the best finisher right now? Is Entreat the Angels generally outclassed at this point? Was interested in messing around with it.

Decay is definitely lower, but there's no quantifying data to support all-time low. It's not just Decay destroying Search, many Grixis decks have multiple Red Blast effects in the SB and that's fine. I rather them hitting Search using their Blast than hitting Jace.

The Entreat vs. Mentor topic has been discussed in the primers above already. It's still very common for your opponents to SB-out creature removals like Push when they face Miracles, they often Brainstorm away their Push/Edict game one because they don't even care about the 2/1 Snapcaster body. That's why our side-boarding tech of SB-in Mentor is rather punishing.

[FGCmtg]

Played in a 160 odd player event yesterday, made t4 which we split. A friend also made t4 on a list 2 cards different to this (+1 cs, -1 cb md, +1 clique, -1 fluster sb), and another friend, WhiteFaces, came 9th on the same list (+/- 1 card or so) :(.

Thought it'd be good to share the list, though I have limited recollection of how the games all went so I can't really do a write up but am happy to answer any questions if there are any.

Ant 2-0
Pile 2-1
Pile 2-0
Dnt 2-0
Miracles 2-0
Grixis delver 2-0
Sneak and show 2-0
Id
Pile 2-0
Split t4

4 brainstorm
4 ponder
3 portent
2 search for azcanta
3 counterbalance
1 counterspell
4 swords to plowshares
4 terminus
3 jace, the mind sculptor
1 entreat the angels
4 force of will
3 predict
3 snapcaster mage
1 council's judgement

4 flooded strand
4 scalding tarn
1 arid Mesa
3 tundra
2 volcanic island
4 island
2 plains

SB
3 flusterstorm
3 pyroblast
3 surgical extraction
2 monastery mentor
1 snapcaster mage
1 council's judgement
2 disenchant

[Whitefaces]

Yup, 9th place was a bit frustrating, would have been so nice to have us three together. Played the same list as above but +1 Counterspell -1 Counterbalance.

My matchups were

2-1 Grixis Delver
1-1 Pile
2-1 Grixis Delver
2-1 Grixis Delver
2-1 Grixis Delver
0-2 Sneak and Show
2-0 Lands
1-0 DnT, then the guy got a game loss for deck reg error.

They then had a T8 for 9th - 16th place.

2-0 Grixis Delver
0-2 Eldrazi

[losada]

Yup, 9th place was a bit frustrating, would have been so nice to have us three together. Played the same list as above but +1 Counterspell -1 Counterbalance.

My matchups were

2-1 Grixis Delver
1-1 Pile
2-1 Grixis Delver
2-1 Grixis Delver
2-1 Grixis Delver
0-2 Sneak and Show
2-0 Lands
1-0 DnT, then the guy got a game loss for deck reg error.

They then had a T8 for 9th - 16th place.

2-0 Grixis Delver
0-2 Eldrazi

It seems that Grixis Delver is definitely a good matchup. xD

Can you go into detail about the games against Sneak and Show and Eldrazi? Why you lost, plays you would have done differently...

Thanks!!!

[Whitefaces]

It seems that Grixis Delver is definitely a good matchup. xD

Can you go into detail about the games against Sneak and Show and Eldrazi? Why you lost, plays you would have done differently...

Thanks!!!

Yeah, Delver is a good matchup for us generally.

There's not a lot to say about the SnS and Eldrazi matches I'm afraid as there wasn't much decisions to be made.

SnS - G1 he had turn two Show and Tell putting in Griselbrand with Force of Will. Game two maybe I made some mistakes, I need to go over it again, but he had a lot of redundant pieces. I countered two Show and Tells and a Sneak Attack, but after trying to Surgical Sneak Attacks (it got Forced) he then played another and Emrakuled me.

Eldrazi - G1 he had the old T1 Chalice, T2 TKS, T3 Smasher hand and I didn't cast any spells. G2 he had T1 Chalice, T2 Chalice for 2, TKS, Smasher, Smasher. The only thing I guess I could have done differently is mulligan to Force of Will, but the hands were generally OK. G2 I had Swords and Disenchants, but they were turned off by the Chalices.

Both decks have a very high ceiling, like in these matches, and there's not a whole lot you can do. Ancient Tomb is good vs Miracles.

[Fgi_88]

Hi Guys! Last sunday i was able to top8 my LGS Legacy Championship (36 players this time)

R1 Burn w 2-1
R2 Turbo dephts w 2-0
R3 Big Eldrazi w 2-1
R4 Dragon Stompy L 2-1
R5 Grixis Delver w 2-0
R6 Jund ID

Top8 Jund L 2-1

The list i was playing is the same u can find some posts ago

[Medea_]

Here's sort of a neat opportunity: ItisUnfair and I got paired last night while we both were streaming. If you're interested to hear the breakdown of a match from both sides from high level players, it's available. My side (D&T) is the first match in my stream here (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/217354776). His side (Miracles) is at about the 4 hour and 34 minutes mark of his video here (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/217279372).

[Kobal]

Here's sort of a neat opportunity: ItisUnfair and I got paired last night while we both were streaming. If you're interested to hear the breakdown of a match from both sides from high level players, it's available. My side (D&T) is the first match in my stream here (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/217354776). His side (Miracles) is at about the 4 hour and 34 minutes mark of his video here (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/217279372).

While I appreciate the heads up sadly that particular match was not as instructive as I had hoped. I mostly learned three things:
- As the Miracles player, be careful what you click when Search for Azcanta and a Terminus Miracle trigger are involved.
- DnT is far less troublesome if it has no early Aether Vial.
- As the Miracles player, draw more than three lands over the course of the match.

[twndomn]

While I appreciate the heads up sadly that particular match was not as instructive as I had hoped. I mostly learned three things:
- As the miracles player, be careful what you click when Search for Azcanta and a Terminus Miracle trigger are involved.
- DnT is far less troublesome if it has no early Aether Vial.
- As the Miracles player, draw more than three lands over the course of the match.

The clip itself might be trivial and non-informative, but the match-up itself is highly interactive and rather intricate. If we read the 2 primers provided by WhiteFace and Itsunfair again, most of the analysis regarding the MU is about sideboarding, and warning on fetching for Volcanic Island, needing the Red Mana for Wear//Tear.

The intricacy, imho, comes down to Vial activation. There's literally Nothing Ever Good, when Vial was activated at 2 counters. Even if it's a fake activation, you have to respect it. Remember, you cannot respond once you've passed priority: it could be a Thalia, Revoker, SFM (which might be under Mom's protection at eot), think about the worst possible outcome before you pass.

Another common mistake is Vial into Karakas. When they Vial Thalia into play at Miracles player's EOT, just STP it with 2 Mana assuming there is no active Mom please. Many times I have seen Miracles players waiting until it's DnT player's turn, and then they just slam down Karakas, now you're in this nightmare scenario of hide-and-seek. Also, by waiting, you're going into DnT player's turn in which he could tick Vial to 3 on upkeep, that would enable the Flickering of Thalia if you then try to STP it, well before the timing of Karakas.

I would rank as the following:
1. Vial Activations, especially 2: 3 is a lot more predictable: Recruiter, Flickerwisp, Crusader, Prelate. On 2, you have to take board state into account, give it more thoughts before you say pass.
2. SoFI: Have a plan for it, and that plan better take Mom and Port into account, CJ requires WW and Port might get in the way.
3. Never-ending Recruiter chain: This is DnT's attempt to marginalize Terminus.
4. Port/Waste Denial: Everyone is probably trained to mitigate these at this point.

Reference: the old miracles, that infamous clip https://youtu.be/1OdHE4MWxaA

[Quackers]

Hello everyone,

I'm new to the deck seeking some advice from more practiced players of the deck. My questions are 1 MD Unexpectedly Absent vs 1 MD Council's Judgment both have 1 Council's Judgment in the side as well. And then replacing the 4th Swords to Plowshares with a Supreme Verdict.

The list I started to learn the deck with had these differences from the decks that just did well in the 160-ish man tournament and I'd like to know what was some reasoning behind these small adjustments. I appreciate the perspective so I may look at the deck in a more holistic fashion.

[FGCmtg]

Hello everyone,

I'm new to the deck seeking some advice from more practiced players of the deck. My questions are 1 MD Unexpectedly Absent vs 1 MD Council's Judgment both have 1 Council's Judgment in the side as well. And then replacing the 4th Swords to Plowshares with a Supreme Verdict.

The list I started to learn the deck with had these differences from the decks that just did well in the 160-ish man tournament and I'd like to know what was some reasoning behind these small adjustments. I appreciate the perspective so I may look at the deck in a more holistic fashion.

Hi - so UA vs CJ is a question largely of playstyle - CJ is a more permanent answer to things like Jace, and it can answer True-Name and Leovold, whereas UA is more flexible in terms of play pattern (allows you to hold up countermagic, deals with things like Marit Lage end of turn).

The CJ sideboard (or in some cases, UA) serves as a fourth answer to Chalice of the Void, whilst still being useful vs Czech Pile/DnT.

Replacing the fourth swords with a verdict is a statement that sweepers are better than spot removal when playing against Delver. I'm not sure this has been proven to be true - but there are a few benefits to having verdict in your deck (Surprise factor vs daze/fluster/force, you can find it with Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin and cast it efficiently the next turn).

Generally I find Swords to be excellent against Delver and try and play a more Swords/Snapcaster into Mentor/Counterbalance/Flusterstorm game rather than relying on wraths. I suspect this also to be more of a playstyle consideration.

[Stonerwolf]

Hi everybody! I'm new here, but I follow this forum from months. I'm testing for a straight UW Mentor Miracle list, and i also cut CB for 3 Spell Pierce, with no Azcanta, because I haven't tried it for now. I see with some testing with some pretty bad matchups like Dragon Stompy, Mono B Pox, BUG Control, that CB is so unstable here, so i preferred pushing for Pierces, due to more response against turn 2 CoTV, some Seize, and why not some Rituals for combos. I know that Flusterstorm is more efficient in a Mentor list, but it can't afford CoTV, or other things( Blood Moon on turn 1, i can't fetch, i'm nearly dead). I also play the 4th Snapcaster in main for having more tempo action for Pierces eventually, we have to reach late game. I'll post you my list, that I', gonna try to an event here in Italy. Suggests are very welcome ^^

Mentor Miracles by Stonerwolf

4x Snapcaster Mage
3x Monastery Mentor

4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
3x Portent
3x Predict
4x FoW
3x Spell Pierce
2x Counterspell
4x StP
3x Terminus
2x Unexpectedly Absent
2x JTMS

4x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
1x Windswept Heath
3x Tundra
1x Karakas
6x Island
2x Plains

Side:
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Flusterstorm
2x Back to Basics
2x Disenchant
2x Entreat The Angels
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Containment Priest
1x Council's Judgment
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Supreme Verdict

Ps.: Yeah, I play 61 main deck cards ;)

[klaus]

Ps.: Yeah, I play 61 main deck cards ;)
Have you tried going down to 19 land? With just two Jaces and that amount of cantrips you should be able to get away with it.

[Stonerwolf]

Have you tried going down to 19 land? With just two Jaces and that amount of cantrips you should be able to get away with it.

I should try it, but a land cut in a deck who nearly needs a land drop for turn, could it be a good idea?

[t3hmyth]

I should try it, but a land cut in a deck who nearly needs a land drop for turn, could it be a good idea?

The discussion of how many lands originally went from 21 to 20. During the DTT era, Miracles lists with really few lands (even Wasteland) were popular because card advantage was so easy. However, 20 became the standard once Mentor became a staple of the deck in/out of the sideboard. Test it out to see if 19 works; I'd guess that 19 might be okay with enough fetches and the basics.

Your list reminds me of the Mentor Miracle list that Claudio Bonanni has had developing: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31468-Mentor-Miracle/page3

The key inclusion that Bonanni makes is Daze: the Daze build has the ability to pivot very quickly at the expense of some power level and some consistency because of the ability to tap out for Mentor with some counter protection/added value.

~~~

I play a version that's not as strongly tempo drive and has 3 Mentor/3 Snap, but my catchall removal is Engineered Explosives. It was based on the original CounterTop version that ran the same with Predict as the post-ban draw engine: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20529-DTB-Miracle-Control&p=956685&viewfull=1#post956685 & the link Minniehajj refers to about GP Columbus: http://www.thebrainstormshow.com/podcasts/episode-019-gp-columbus-through-a-miraculous-lens/

Using EE in the current metagame can be a little more fragile. I use a basic Mountain, though others run 2x or 3x Volcanic Island. The added value is getting multiple cards with an EE, and avoiding any double color requirements that aren't Blue. (I also don't run Entreat) That being said, needing :w: :u: :r: sometimes to eliminate a Leovold or TNN is almost as challenging.

The card I've used in my flex slots has been a 2x Disrupt. It's not free like Daze, but has some upside in early interaction--specifically countering hand disruption on T1/2--and is another outlet for instant speed draw. In general though, it's still relatively weak. It's one of the first cards to side out for a blast effect or Flusterstorm. I think that's generally something that keeps the Tempo Mentor builds is that there isn't a really strong free spell to marry with the Mentor. Cabal Therapy is almost there in an Esper shell, but its problem is that it's slower than Pyromancer.

[Stonerwolf]

The key inclusion that Bonanni makes is Daze: the Daze build has the ability to pivot very quickly at the expense of some power level and some consistency because of the ability to tap out for Mentor with some counter protection/added value.


I've also tested Daze too but this card is better for tempo shells decks, i haven't feel it good here. How much is good investing a bounced land for a free countered spell?

Spell Pierce did not pass my testing, too unstable, and i forget a big trouble: Cavern Of Souls.
So Pierce, is useless for now. I'm going back to swap with 2 CB again and 1 EtA.

[jubeininja69]

I feel UWr should be the default miracles build now. blasts and reb are too good in legacy.

[Minniehajj]

I'll be streaming the Legacy Challenge today! Playing UWr Miracles and will be joined by the legendary Angelo Cadei after he finishes an IRL event :) Would love if you all joined me!

https://www.twitch.tv/minnifer/

[NimbleJosh]

I’ve dug through the primer but couldn’t find a match up analysis for burn. I find I can’t close out games quick enough and they just win. Anyone have strategies for this match up?

[twndomn]

I’ve dug through the primer but couldn’t find a match up analysis for burn. I find I can’t close out games quick enough and they just win. Anyone have strategies for this match up?

As we know, mono-red Burn loses to itself due to variance, so you get that going for you. Not to discriminate, but a lot of Burn players miss the Eidolon triggers and Vortex triggers. Hence, be aware of the miss-trigger rule, like really understand it. Ultimately, you want the game state to be Jace + CB and you use Jace to setup what you're floating every turn. Sometimes it's a good idea to just damage race using Mentor. In short, this MU is very difficult without CB. Hence, my first priority would be to find it.

You can of course SB-in some Burn hate, and that's actually more common in paper event than one would presume. The important issue of side-boarding is to consider what's Burn player's SB: Pillar, Vortex, Firecraft, Vexing Shusher. If you know for sure Firecraft is coming in, RiP is a good way to prevent that eventual inevitability. Disenchant effect are must as it would hit both Eidolon and any other damage dealing enchantments.

Overall, I would stress that using your StP and Blue cantrips wisely. Always consider the possibility of StP your own creature to stay out of Bolt range. When you cast each Brainstorm/Ponder, anticipate what your Burn opponent's next Burn spell would be. Yes, you're supposed to do that for all MU when you have CB in play, but every spell in this MU matters.

[wolffman]

I'm a U/W stone-blade player here looking to play some miracles. I have just about everything for this deck, with the exception of volcanic islands for the red splash. From what I've seen the only red cards appear in the sideboard. This seems like it would make the volcs nothing but a liability in game 1 by increasing our vulnerability to wasteland. With the inbred, blue infested meta I clearly see the value of having red blasts in the SB, but it seems the deck would still be playable as strictly U/W.

Could any of the veterans of this deck share their ideas for what a straight U/W version of this deck should look like? I'm really not sure where to start and I'm sure there would be many little things that I just don't know about to consider when dropping red from the deck. Thanks in advance for your time!

[TimHarding]

I'm a U/W stone-blade player here looking to play some miracles. I have just about everything for this deck, with the exception of volcanic islands for the red splash. From what I've seen the only red cards appear in the sideboard. This seems like it would make the volcs nothing but a liability in game 1 by increasing our vulnerability to wasteland. With the inbred, blue infested meta I clearly see the value of having red blasts in the SB, but it seems the deck would still be playable as strictly U/W.

Could any of the veterans of this deck share their ideas for what a straight U/W version of this deck should look like? I'm really not sure where to start and I'm sure there would be many little things that I just don't know about to consider when dropping red from the deck. Thanks in advance for your time!

I would say that the deck considerably weaker without the red splash. The cases where you’re punished for the volcanics occur far less than the cases where blasts put in serious work. You would have a very hard time winning the mirror, too. I’d avoid the detour and practice with the red from the beginning..

[Deckerator]

Why is no one playing Gideon, Ally of zendikar? For me it such a powerhouse in so many fair match-ups
Playing one in the sideboard and one in the mainboard

Gesendet von meinem Aquaris X5 mit Tapatalk

[Kyuuri117]

Why is no one playing Gideon, Ally of zendikar? For me it such a powerhouse in so many fair match-ups
Playing one in the sideboard and one in the mainboard

Gesendet von meinem Aquaris X5 mit Tapatalk

I run it as a one of in the sideboard since my meta always has 1-2 czech pile decks floating around. Having a game ending threat that doesn't die to abrupt decay/fatal push or a pyro/reb is outstanding.

[Whitefaces]

My problem with Gideon is it's only good when you're at parity or already ahead, not things I like to count on for this deck.

[Deckerator]

Do the miracle decks already have a core deck?
I am still not sure what is the right configuration after the top ban.

The addition of 2x Search for Azcanta is an improvement for this deck.

[FGCmtg]

Do the miracle decks already have a core deck?
I am still not sure what is the right configuration after the top ban.

The addition of 2x Search for Azcanta is an improvement for this deck.

1 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
2 Plains
4 Island
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
1 Counterspell
3 Predict
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Council's Judgment
3 Portent
4 Ponder
4 Terminus
2 Search for Azcanta
3 Counterbalance
1 Entreat the Angels
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Snapcaster Mage

Sideboard
2 Monastery Mentor
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Flusterstorm
2 Disenchant
3 Pyroblast
1 Council's Judgment
1 Snapcaster Mage

Something like this is pretty much stock at the moment, you can cut a predict for a counterspell main, or a snap for a mentor sb and other minor tweaks, but yeah, I'd say this is ~73/75 stock ish.

[mike1987]

1 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
2 Plains
4 Island
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
1 Counterspell
3 Predict
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Council's Judgment
3 Portent
4 Ponder
4 Terminus
2 Search for Azcanta
3 Counterbalance
1 Entreat the Angels
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Snapcaster Mage

Sideboard
2 Monastery Mentor
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Flusterstorm
2 Disenchant
3 Pyroblast
1 Council's Judgment
1 Snapcaster Mage

Something like this is pretty much stock at the moment, you can cut a predict for a counterspell main, or a snap for a mentor sb and other minor tweaks, but yeah, I'd say this is ~73/75 stock ish.

Thanks FGC for providing the stock list! i have been thinking of going back to miracles at my LGS this week as well but that place is flooded with chalices. From big eldrazi, white palace jailer chalice concoction to merfolk. Do you think playing 1 EE in the main is good to combat chalice heavy decks? or should I just play 2 council's judgement in the main.

With only 3 jaces and 1 entreat, do you guys have a problem with ending the game on time? I have always been trying to speed up my play without compromising for errors.

[phg22]

Two Miracle decks made Top 8 of SCG Philly (team constructed open, though), with others in 11th and 23rd. Also an interesting deck labeled "Jeskai Helm" in 25th. List here http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BCT3%5D=3&start_date=01/26/2018&end_date=01/28/2018&start=1&finish=25&event_ID=49&city=Philadelphia.

Joe Brennan's list is particularly interesting, featuring 9 basic lands, 3 terminus without access to Verdict or another sweeper in the 75, and some other interesting choices. Man seems determined not to lose to chalice with 2 Unexpectedly Absent, 1 CJ, and 2 Wear / Tear in the board. Relic is an interesting choice as well. Also Ruination over From the Ashes is honestly very confusing.

Notably 2 Mentors is a four sideboards. I know a lot of people had been getting away from that card entirely.

[TheArchitect]

I took 3rd at a 115ish person 4k at Channel Fireball today!


I have played like 3 paper events in the last 6 months so I have not been too active on this thread lately, but I thought I would share my list since it is a bit different:

1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island

3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Monastery Mentor

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Portent
2 Predict

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Counterbalance
2 Search for Azcanta

2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

1 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus

Sideboard:

1 Council's Judgment
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Flusterstorm
1 From the Ashes
1 Pithing Needle
3 Pyroblast
1 Pyroclasm
1 Rest in Peace (this should be a 3rd surgical)
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Wear // Tear

Matchups:
2-0 ANT, but with some fun/suboptimal card choices
2-0 D&T
2-1 Miracles mirror
1-2 BG depths
2-0 D&T
2-1 UR Delver
2-0 ANT

I was the 3rd seed, but we just split.



I am really happy with 4 mentors. They were the MVP all day. In literally every matchup but depths, I got to cast early mentors and win games where I was behind. Against both ANT opponents, I was losing the attrition war, but stole the game with relatively early mentors. Against the 2nd D&T opponent our round was over in 10 minutes! In the miracles mirror, he resolved CB and search, and I got to resolve mentor after and win with little fight back.

Rest in peace should be a 3rd surgical, I just couldn't find one.

From the ashes is not a card I feel strongly about and could be something else. I would like something that helps the Depths/lands matchup though.

If anyone has questions or feedback I would be happy to hear it.

[jubeininja69]

^can you go over the turbo depths matchup? how did you lose to it?

why the single mountain?

I know there is a guy on here who plays bg depths and is a cfb local. i think his name is solnox. did you play him?

[TheArchitect]

^can you go over the turbo depths matchup? how did you lose to it?

why the single mountain?

I know there is a guy on here who plays bg depths and is a cfb local. i think his name is solnox. did you play him?

Sure! Game 1 I mulled to 5 and then forgot to scry, but I had 2 BS, swords, terminus, land and kept finding good interactive spells and lands. Jace and mentor wrapped things up. My opponent had a window to kill me but made strange choices with his discard spells. The turn mentor killed I "stormed" a bunch with Swords/countering my own guys/spells for the win. Game 2 I kept a 4 lander with snap and cantrips and ended up just cantripping into more cantrips before dying without much fight. Game 3 was much closer, but he had Bobs and library which let him get a million cards and I punted a bit and waited too long to cast a mentor. I think this game was winnable if I played differently.

Overall, Turbo depths had been a pretty easy matchup for me, but he had like 2-3 safekeepers, bobs and librarys which were very good obviously.

I am not sure if it was solnox.

The single mountain is because I like to bring in Red blast against most delver decks, and play red cards against waste/port decks like D&T. One of the main advantages of playing mentors, no entreats is you only need 1 basic plains so you can afford to run a mountain. I have run the mountain in the SB before, but having just 1 "colorless land" MD isn't too bad.

[FGCmtg]

Thanks FGC for providing the stock list! i have been thinking of going back to miracles at my LGS this week as well but that place is flooded with chalices. From big eldrazi, white palace jailer chalice concoction to merfolk. Do you think playing 1 EE in the main is good to combat chalice heavy decks? or should I just play 2 council's judgement in the main.

With only 3 jaces and 1 entreat, do you guys have a problem with ending the game on time? I have always been trying to speed up my play without compromising for errors.

Hey - no problem. If your metagame is full of tribal/chalice stuff, for sure, EE is where you want to be. Generally in an open metagame, I wouldn't expect this to be the case so I haven't played EE in a while. I'd recommend going up to three mentor side, as that card is the most flexible way of beating those decks. The CJ in the main is primarily there as an out to Jace preboard, but you could switch the CJ sideboard for an EE.

Jace/Entreat have been fine to end the game, Search digs for your wincons really well.

[Deckerator]

I also prefer the Mentor Version of miracles.

My version looks like the following (still space for a one off e.g. EE, CJ, Flusterstorm):

Lands: 20

3x Snapcaster Mage
3x Monastery Mentor

4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Portent
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Counterspell
2x Predict
2x Search for Azcanta
2x Unexpectedly Absent
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4x Force of Will
3x Terminus

I am not sure if Counterbalance is still worth playing in the post ban version. I had the feeling that i wanna tap out to early and then it can produce to many random card reveal situations.
What are your opinions on Counterbalance because i still see it in many lists?

[FGCmtg]

I also prefer the Mentor Version of miracles.

My version looks like the following (still space for a one off e.g. EE, CJ, Flusterstorm):

Lands: 20

3x Snapcaster Mage
3x Monastery Mentor

4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Portent
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Counterspell
2x Predict
2x Search for Azcanta
2x Unexpectedly Absent
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4x Force of Will
3x Terminus

I am not sure if Counterbalance is still worth playing in the post ban version. I had the feeling that i wanna tap out to early and then it can produce to many random card reveal situations.
What are your opinions on Counterbalance because i still see it in many lists?

Counterbalance is very important in my opinion - I played the lists before search/counterbalance a lot, and they lacked a threat that your opponent had to respect as such. Counterbalance only needs to catch one spell to pay for itself, after that it should accrue value over time with your cantrips/snapcasters/jaces. It makes your combo matchups significantly better, and lets you lock the game up against delver decks to stop you getting burnt out. It's a very different card to what it was before with top, it's more of a long term value piece than a lock out.

Mentor vs entreat main is a less important issue and more comes down to playstyle - I like the mentor post board style of play as a tool to fight difficult to interact with decks or to pressure people after they've taken out their removal. Entreat lets you play the long grindy control game with an ultimate endgame that goes over all the aggro and midrange decks in the format, where mentor (or even gideon) would just die. (I've played both wincons a lot main post ban, this is just where I like to be). I will say, I wouldn't play main deck mentor without counterbalance as a way to protect it against removal, which largely won't be boarded out if you kill them with mentor g1. You're also encouraged to play flusters to protect mentor, this changes the deck significantly - with entreat your wincon takes one slot main deck and lets you dedicate yourself to the late game, which is just a powerful position to be in against a lot of decks.

[Sparkii]

Sure! Game 1 I mulled to 5 and then forgot to scry, but I had 2 BS, swords, terminus, land and kept finding good interactive spells and lands. Jace and mentor wrapped things up. My opponent had a window to kill me but made strange choices with his discard spells. The turn mentor killed I "stormed" a bunch with Swords/countering my own guys/spells for the win. Game 2 I kept a 4 lander with snap and cantrips and ended up just cantripping into more cantrips before dying without much fight. Game 3 was much closer, but he had Bobs and library which let him get a million cards and I punted a bit and waited too long to cast a mentor. I think this game was winnable if I played differently.

Overall, Turbo depths had been a pretty easy matchup for me, but he had like 2-3 safekeepers, bobs and librarys which were very good obviously.

I am not sure if it was solnox.

The single mountain is because I like to bring in Red blast against most delver decks, and play red cards against waste/port decks like D&T. One of the main advantages of playing mentors, no entreats is you only need 1 basic plains so you can afford to run a mountain. I have run the mountain in the SB before, but having just 1 "colorless land" MD isn't too bad.

It wasn’t solnox, although he was in the top 8 along with me as well. I was the lands player who drew in at first seed into round 7.

Your lack of paper magic does show, in the few times I walked by I definitely saw you miss at least two Mentor triggers. Interesting list, congrats on the finish.

[twndomn]

I took 3rd at a 115ish person 4k at Channel Fireball today!



Congrats to TheArchitect! (dance~)




I am not sure if Counterbalance is still worth playing in the post ban version. I had the feeling that i wanna tap out to early and then it can produce to many random card reveal situations.
What are your opinions on Counterbalance because i still see it in many lists?

It's not an arbitrary decision for the community to arrive at running 2 CB, it's the result of large amount of testing done ever since post Top.

The role of Mentor
The issue here is the card slots when you have Mentor SB. If you MD Mentors, then you have 2 empty SB slots, in which you would probably put more combo hate in those (Mentor gives you advantages against all fair MUs). Now, if you have Mentor SB, does this mean that you would MD your combo hate? From the lists I have seen, the answer is no. This new interesting approach here is that there is no golden rule suggesting you need to run 3 Jace. I am willing to MD more Mentor(s) and MD -1 Jace as an experiment.

The MU against Turbo Depth
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=118561
This looks like the de facto list with Rite of Consumption. Notice how this version no longer runs Into the North.

It is entirely possible for us to just jam Mentor early, hoping Depth player has a discard heavy hand but not the combo pieces. If you play the long game, Depth player would assemble a hand of discard and combo pieces (maybe with safekeeper) to try to win in 1 shot, starting from our EoT. More Needle helps, there might be better tech out there.

[Stefanogs]

About cb, it's an all star, I never play less than 3. I feel naked without it against storm, Delver etc.

[Deckerator]

Thank you for all the replies.
I add 2x Counterbalance to the deck, didn't know that Counterbalance is still such and important card and cut one Portent for a Flusterstorm.

My playstyle is more for the Mentor version (but with only 3x Mentor) because i love to play this card

[ozimek]

Lately there has been a trend to play more Thoughtseize effects. Can someone give a reasoning for that? I guess the aim is to get both players into top decking mode more reliably? Is that a viable strategy against heavier decks with a higher density of late game bombs?

Has the metagame adjusted to be more resilient to Hymns?

[FGCmtg]

Lately there has been a trend to play more Thoughtseize effects. Can someone give a reasoning for that? I guess the aim is to get both players into top decking mode more reliably? Is that a viable strategy against heavier decks with a higher density of late game bombs?

Has the metagame adjusted to be more resilient to Hymns?

Thoughtseize effects in Miracles? Or from our opponents? Is this supposed to be in the pile thread? ;)

[Magicmarvin]

For what is null rod in the sideboards?
As i understand its for DT, Storm and now also men of steel
since it counter
-led
-aether vial
-steel overseer.

Are there even more Applications ?

And would you even board it in vs DT or Storm.

For example isnt it to slow for storm?
And does it disrupt Dt enough by making them play critters instead of locking us out + creatures?

[FGCmtg]

For what is null rod in the sideboards?
As i understand its for DT, Storm and now also men of steel
since it counter
-led
-aether vial
-steel overseer.

Are there even more Applications ?

And would you even board it in vs DT or Storm.

For example isnt it to slow for storm?
And does it disrupt Dt enough by making them play critters instead of locking us out + creatures?

Hey - yeah the card is/was played as a flex slot for DnT, Storm and Eldrazi Post decks (with grim monolith/voltaic key). Now Men of Steel is a deck so yeah it's good there too. The card is awesome vs DnT as two of their best cards, Aether Vial and Sword of Fire and Ice, both get shut off by the card. It essentially just buys you 5-6 turns until they can flickerwisp + equip or something, by which point you should be firmly in control.

I haven't played the card in a couple of months, it's a pretty niche card mostly.

[acidhead]

(Nullrod)
For example isnt it to slow for storm?


Not at all. It's most likely that the game goes into a grind situation where they try to overthrow you in mid-/lategame with discard, their own counters and ultimately having more mana, e.g. by provoking you to counter enough mana/tutors to kill you with natural tendrils or by casting Past in Flames multiple times. Especially for the latter one Null Rod is really good for you as it cuts them off their artifact mana which is the common source for {R} in a combo turn with PiF or BW. It's also another valuable Discard/Removal which isn't your CB.

[twndomn]

Sigh~, Turbo Depths, annoying af.

game 1:
Depths player with 4 cards in hand, cast Crop Rotation, no mox, no additional green source in play.
me: counter it.
Depths player: Elvish Spirit Guide, cast Crop Rotation again.
me: I hate my life, no way I would suspect that's his hand

game 2:
Depths player: puts down Boseiju
me: #$@#, need to find Blood Moon/From the Ashes ASAP.
Next turn
Depths player: make 20/20
me: no stifle
Depths player: Cast Rites of Consumption, sac 20/20 via Boseiju mana.
me: I wish I had Clique SB.

[Kyuuri117]

Sigh~, Turbo Depths, annoying af.

game 1:
Depths player with 4 cards in hand, cast Crop Rotation, no mox, no additional green source in play.
me: counter it.
Depths player: Elvish Spirit Guide, cast Crop Rotation again.
me: I hate my life, no way I would suspect that's his hand

game 2:
Depths player: puts down Boseiju
me: #$@#, need to find Blood Moon/From the Ashes ASAP.
Next turn
Depths player: make 20/20
me: no stifle
Depths player: Cast Rites of Consumption, sac 20/20 via Boseiju mana.
me: I wish I had Clique SB.



This is how i've been feeling in the Infect and Food Chain matchups. Don't have turbo depths at my local meta but I seriously cannot catch a break vs infect or food chain. Infect just overwhelms my answers, and food chain is literally impossible to fully disrupt, and just grinds me out of the game.

[cdnza]

Haven't played magic in about 4 months, decide to go to a small weekly last night. Decide for some reason to play a nonblue deck. Forgot how miserable that is. Going to come back to Miracles for next week.

Interested to hear where the seasoned veterans have landed on the mainboard UA/CJ slot. If you're going to play one maindeck, which do you prefer and why? I've seen lists from MODO that play either (or even one of each) but I'm super behind on the meta after the last 4 months.

[Hanni]

From the ashes is not a card I feel strongly about and could be something else. I would like something that helps the Depths/lands matchup though.

Blood Sun ? Hurts yourself by shutting off fetchlands (like Blood Moon does), but it shuts down their gameplan, cantrips, and I believe it doesn't give them a 20/20 if they destroy it unlike Blood Moon (not sure about this last point?).

[phg22]

Blood Sun and Blood Moon both cause a Dark Depths to enter the battlefield with 0 counters; it will become Marit Lage the Moon / Sun leaves play.

I don't know I about Blood Sun vs Moon. Without top, we do a lot less with random colorless mana than before, but fetches doing nothing can be a problem. Blood Sun does little against the generic greedy mana base since duals still do their thing. For what its worth, I think Back to Basics or From the Ashes are much better non basic hate right now vs the field, but Blood Moon is likely the best place to be vs Turbo Depths.

[Magicmarvin]

I dont think that a card like blood moon is a good answer to turbo depths since cards like abrupt decay just become an uncounterable marit lage.

[Whitefaces]

This is how i've been feeling in the Infect and Food Chain matchups. Don't have turbo depths at my local meta but I seriously cannot catch a break vs infect or food chain. Infect just overwhelms my answers, and food chain is literally impossible to fully disrupt, and just grinds me out of the game.

Both those matchups are tough. Infect is slightly favoured vs us I'd say, but you must have a pretty good understanding of how to play vs the deck too to stand a chance, they'll punish a tiny misstep heavily. Food Chain feels a bit harder than Infect for me. They threaten a combo plus have some insane grinding power. Our route to victory usually involves Jace, though Search is a great addition for the matchup, if it flips to get under a Decay you're probably in decent shape. After Jace, blasts are our best cards. How to play vs them really depends on how you play generally, and how you sb. How do you find you usually lose the matchup?


Haven't played magic in about 4 months, decide to go to a small weekly last night. Decide for some reason to play a nonblue deck. Forgot how miserable that is. Going to come back to Miracles for next week.

Interested to hear where the seasoned veterans have landed on the mainboard UA/CJ slot. If you're going to play one maindeck, which do you prefer and why? I've seen lists from MODO that play either (or even one of each) but I'm super behind on the meta after the last 4 months.

I've gone off UA completely, CJ has consistently done the job. It's a clunker and not always the most pretty, but there was just too many situations where UA didn't do what I wanted for me to justify it. I have 1 CJ md and 1 more in the sb, pretty happy with them.


Blood Sun and Blood Moon both cause a Dark Depths to enter the battlefield with 0 counters; it will become Marit Lage the Moon / Sun leaves play.

I don't know I about Blood Sun vs Moon. Without top, we do a lot less with random colorless mana than before, but fetches doing nothing can be a problem. Blood Sun does little against the generic greedy mana base since duals still do their thing. For what its worth, I think Back to Basics or From the Ashes are much better non basic hate right now vs the field, but Blood Moon is likely the best place to be vs Turbo Depths.


I dont think that a card like blood moon is a good answer to turbo depths since cards like abrupt decay just become an uncounterable marit lage.

I agree with phg22 and Magicmarvin, I don't like Blood Moon and especially Blood Sun in our deck. Depths is a pretty good matchup. They've been sideboarding some more nasty stuff than usual recently, like Safekeepers, more Sylvans etc but we get get through them. I've been leaving in 3 copies of Terminus now to respect Safekeeper. Their scariest sb plan is Boseiju + Rite of Consumption. That one I'm not quite sure what to do vs yet, though I've not faced it myself, might need a plan if it picks up.

[Stevestamopz]

Their scariest sb plan is Boseiju + Rite of Consumption. That one I'm not quite sure what to do vs yet, though I've not faced it myself, might need a plan if it picks up.

http://static.starcitygames.com/sales/cardscans/MAG_GERMAN/Misdirection_Mercadian_German.jpg

[hofzge]

Both those matchups are tough. Infect is slightly favoured vs us I'd say, but you must have a pretty good understanding of how to play vs the deck too to stand a chance, they'll punish a tiny misstep heavily. Food Chain feels a bit harder than Infect for me. They threaten a combo plus have some insane grinding power. Our route to victory usually involves Jace, though Search is a great addition for the matchup, if it flips to get under a Decay you're probably in decent shape. After Jace, blasts are our best cards. How to play vs them really depends on how you play generally, and how you sb. How do you find you usually lose the matchup?


For some time before Top was banned I played Food Chain and the most important card was always Manipulate Fate: If you managed to resolve it you could grind hard and always threaten combo. Therefore I would at times not cantrip blindly T1 to keep up Blasts: As Whitefaces said Blasts really are your lifeline.

[Whitefaces]

For some time before Top was banned I played Food Chain and the most important card was always Manipulate Fate: If you managed to resolve it you could grind hard and always threaten combo. Therefore I would at times not cantrip blindly T1 to keep up Blasts: As Whitefaces said Blasts really are your lifeline.

I totally agree. I've played a fair bit of Food Chain myself too and I remember not playing it into open mana usually, or set up up a turn with two copies to get it through. I even tried bringing in Flusters as Miracles just for it, but that was a bit too narrow I think.


Misdirection

:cool:

[cdnza]

I've gone off UA completely, CJ has consistently done the job. It's a clunker and not always the most pretty, but there was just too many situations where UA didn't do what I wanted for me to justify it. I have 1 CJ md and 1 more in the sb, pretty happy with them.

Thanks for the reply Whitefaces, really appreciate it. What does your IRL sideboard look like at the moment? iirc your main is currently something like 3 CB, 1 CS, 2 SfA, 1 CJ?

[Whitefaces]

Thanks for the reply Whitefaces, really appreciate it. What does your IRL sideboard look like at the moment? iirc your main is currently something like 3 CB, 1 CS, 2 SfA, 1 CJ?

Close! I'm running 2 CS still. This is my list atm with some bonus sb tables attached - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13wZ4UYZgMqeemjFv8cfj1PZ-O1zM6kxPtGfNIs83_4w/edit#gid=0

You can tinker with a bunch of the numbers, depends what you're expecting to face, I feel like it is pretty well rounded to fight most things except Cloudpost decks. The plan there is just Mentor, sometimes gets it.

There are a few slots in it that I think can be changed up (some I don't have in my deck, you'll have to read between the lines):

3rd CB - great vs the top tier decks and combo but worse vs 'stuff'
3rd Predict - great vs a midrange/control heavy meta, OK vs Delver and slow combo, bad vs fast combo. I also think Search has filled some of this cards role, less important with entreat too.
2nd Counterspell - poor vs Delver, great vs midrange/control and slow combo, OK vs fast combo
4th Terminus - this is something I'm not a fan of cutting, but others have had success with 3 Terminus 1 Supreme Verdict - OK vs delver and midrange/control (mirror post sb mostly), poor vs dnt/elves etc

[cdnza]

Super nice of you to share that SB guide with us! Looks like I need to pick up a third Flusterstorm...

Something that intrigues me is you seem to be boarding in the fourth Snapcaster Mage in every matchup. Have any words of wisdom on this topic?

[Whitefaces]

Super nice of you to share that SB guide with us! Looks like I need to pick up a third Flusterstorm...

Something that intrigues me is you seem to be boarding in the fourth Snapcaster Mage in every matchup. Have any words of wisdom on this topic?

Worth it, I think the third Fluster is pretty crucial for the deck.

Yeah sure, it gets asked about a lot. It's because after boarding the deck has more spells to flashback basically, as simple as that sounds. It's very weird to have a sb card that's already in the maindeck and also comes in vs everything, but since vs every match we're bringing in more high impact spells its worth goes up. In G1 we don't have as many good spells to flash back typically, still enough to play 3, but more than that can feel clunky with diminishing returns. As long as the sb isn't scattered with 1-ofs, it's essentially a 4th Blast, 3rd Disenchant, 4th Surgical etc.

Doesn't mean it's always correct to play a snapcaster in the sb though. My sb has a lot of spells so it becomes better, if you're playing stuff like hatebears (priest, canonist, clique), EE, B2B/Moon and things like that then it becomes worse.

[cdnza]

Great explanation, thanks again! Going to try to play with a list very similar to yours (maybe +/- Predict/Counterspell) next week. Should be interesting since the last time I was playing the deck it was when we were all fooling around with Soothsaying...

Going to have to re-read ItIsUnfair's big rant doc in preparation I think!

[ozimek]

Thoughtseize effects in Miracles? Or from our opponents? Is this supposed to be in the pile thread? ;)

It was indeed. My apologies..

I abandoned Miracles after the Top ban, and was homeless for a long time. Have since picked up Pile, but am now eyeing Miracles again :)

I find it very hard to believe CB is viable without top. My inclanation would be to jam more straight up Counterspells (and Snaps for the CA), but I can see that people are having success with CB still. I don't get it, but I should probably just test it and see...

[twndomn]

http://static.starcitygames.com/sales/cardscans/MAG_GERMAN/Misdirection_Mercadian_German.jpg

Don't think Misdirection is the SB solution you would want against Turbo Depths. Turbo Depth is packed with Duress and Thoughtseize. As long as you're not pressuring Depth player with Mentor, they will sculpt their hand and start their combo sequence with a discard. Misdirection doesn't interact well against those discard spells.

I would argue that Clique is the answer to most of these combo match-ups, as in Food Chain and Turbo Depths. Clique actually sends Griffin into the grave, disrupts combo pieces like Rites and Food Chain. Worst case scenario, it can be served as an emergency block for the 20/20 (yes, you could still die to removal or crop rotation).

[Deckerator]

What about playing karakas as a one-off?
This deck plays so many cantrips that it should be easy to find.

I know that Turbo depths can set a needle on karakas but a lot of the old miracle lists played at least one karakas.
Why isn't it played, nowadays? Also what happened to the legend list of Joe lossett?

Karakas could help against S&S, Reanimator and depths.

Gesendet von meinem Aquaris X5 mit Tapatalk

[FGCmtg]

What about playing karakas as a one-off?
This deck plays so many cantrips that it should be easy to find.

I know that Turbo depths can set a needle on karakas but a lot of the old miracle lists played at least one karakas.
Why isn't it played, nowadays? Also what happened to the legend list of Joe lossett?

Karakas could help against S&S, Reanimator and depths.

Gesendet von meinem Aquaris X5 mit Tapatalk

Karakas generally doesn't do enough in the current builds to warrant playing. SnS/Reanimator want to have Griselbrand in play, Karakas doesn't normally beat Griselbrand. The more popular decks in the format (Delver) see Karakas as a wasteable plains, and cutting blue sources in the deck is risky/unadvisable.

Legends Miracles died with top - essentially you needed the top to lock your opponent out and give you consistency so you could play a bunch of clunky 3 and 4 drops, which you can't really afford to do any more.

Depths is a good matchup, which we can beat with swords, snapcaster and jace, with flusters post board - karakas is too much of a risk in other matchups to warrant having the card again.

This is why the card doesn't see play any more (I think it's really sweet though, v cool card.. just yeah.. risky in the metagame against the closer matchups)

[Eldariel]

Don't think Misdirection is the SB solution you would want against Turbo Depths. Turbo Depth is packed with Duress and Thoughtseize. As long as you're not pressuring Depth player with Mentor, they will sculpt their hand and start their combo sequence with a discard. Misdirection doesn't interact well against those discard spells.

I would argue that Clique is the answer to most of these combo match-ups, as in Food Chain and Turbo Depths. Clique actually sends Griffin into the grave, disrupts combo pieces like Rites and Food Chain. Worst case scenario, it can be served as an emergency block for the 20/20 (yes, you could still die to removal or crop rotation).

Well, Misdirection isn't a bad card against Thoughtseize. It trades 2 for 2 (Thoughtseize and their worst non-land card for Misdirection and your worst blue card) while making them reveal their hand, pay B and lose 2 life. Not amazing but you could do worse. Of course, it's sadly completely ineffective against Duress since it only targets opponents.

[twndomn]

Karakas generally doesn't do enough in the current builds to warrant playing. SnS/Reanimator want to have Griselbrand in play, Karakas doesn't normally beat Griselbrand. The more popular decks in the format (Delver) see Karakas as a wasteable plains, and cutting blue sources in the deck is risky/unadvisable.

Legends Miracles died with top - essentially you needed the top to lock your opponent out and give you consistency so you could play a bunch of clunky 3 and 4 drops, which you can't really afford to do any more.

Depths is a good matchup, which we can beat with swords, snapcaster and jace, with flusters post board - karakas is too much of a risk in other matchups to warrant having the card again.

This is why the card doesn't see play any more (I think it's really sweet though, v cool card.. just yeah.. risky in the metagame against the closer matchups)

This kind of post is misleading.

First of all, why give the impression that you must run Legendary creatures in Miracles if you decide to run a Karakas? Running a Karakas does not automatically falls into a conclusion of Legend Miracles.

Second, how did you draw the conclusion that Karakas doesn't normally beat Griselbrand? I question your methodology and assessment, especially you wrote a blanket statement without context. Say Griselbrand in Sneak and Show, I can see how a resolved Griselbrand basically ends the game. However, I have kept a hand of 5 lands and 2 spells, with Karakas as one of the lands and defeat BR Reanimator, in multiple occasions. I would argue the opposite. If you start the game against BR Reanimator and they reveal a Chancellor of the Annex, Karakas might be a better way to interact than Surgical, assuming they did not discard and dig Annex out of grave, went for land petal entomb for Griselbrand, reanimate instead.

Third, thinking StP alone will carry you to victory against Turbo Depths is feeding into a false sense of security. sylvan safekeeper and crop rotate into Sejiri Steppe are plenty of ways to get around StP. Gaining Flusterstorm post board is simply not enough. StP and Fluster don't even interact against Boseiju + Rites. From my experience, do everything you can to hold off the first 20/20 attempt, which might require you to fight off discard. If Depth player is slow off the gate, apply pressure even at the cost of taking a risk.


Well, Misdirection isn't a bad card against Thoughtseize. It trades 2 for 2 (Thoughtseize and their worst non-land card for Misdirection and your worst blue card) while making them reveal their hand, pay B and lose 2 life. Not amazing but you could do worse. Of course, it's sadly completely ineffective against Duress since it only targets opponents.

Say I'm BR Reanimator player, I thoughtseize you and you misdirect it back to me, I reveal my hand and choose to discard Griselbrand, what did the Misdirection accomplish? Rather, I'm not saying you should SB-in Misdirection against BR Reanimator, I'm saying blanket statement without context is not helpful.

[FGCmtg]

This kind of post is misleading.

First of all, why give the impression that you must run Legendary creatures in Miracles if you decide to run a Karakas? Running a Karakas does not automatically falls into a conclusion of Legend Miracles.

Second, how did you draw the conclusion that Karakas doesn't normally beat Griselbrand? I question your methodology and assessment, especially you wrote a blanket statement without context. Say Griselbrand in Sneak and Show, I can see how a resolved Griselbrand basically ends the game. However, I have kept a hand of 5 lands and 2 spells, with Karakas as one of the lands and defeat BR Reanimator, in multiple occasions. I would argue the opposite. If you start the game against BR Reanimator and they reveal a Chancellor of the Annex, Karakas might be a better way to interact than Surgical, assuming they did not discard and dig Annex out of grave, went for land petal entomb for Griselbrand, reanimate instead.

Third, thinking StP alone will carry you to victory against Turbo Depths is feeding into a false sense of security. sylvan safekeeper and crop rotate into Sejiri Steppe are plenty of ways to get around StP. Gaining Flusterstorm post board is simply not enough. StP and Fluster don't even interact against Boseiju + Rites. From my experience, do everything you can to hold off the first 20/20 attempt, which might require you to fight off discard. If Depth player is slow off the gate, apply pressure even at the cost of taking a risk.



Say I'm BR Reanimator player, I thoughtseize you and you misdirect it back to me, I reveal my hand and choose to discard Griselbrand, what did the Misdirection accomplish? Rather, I'm not saying you should SB-in Misdirection against BR Reanimator, I'm saying blanket statement without context is not helpful.

Sorry, I thought some of these things would be obvious.

At no point did I say you had to run legendary creatures to make Karakas good - but the initial post wanted to know why 'Legends Miracles' is not being played any longer, and I gave my response to that accordingly.

Karakas has always done a poor job at beating Griselbrand, essentially any deck looking to put Griselbrand into play will have some other end-game threat be it Emrakul, or Sire of Insanity/Tidespout Tyrant or something else. Once your opponent has drawn 14 cards, put another Griselbrand into play plus the other threat, you essentially died to the first Griselbrand even if you bounced it. It's a rare occasion on which you just Karakas their demon and they don't draw cards, or they draw cards and can't utilise them - their whole deck is designed to cheat huge threats into play and with 14 extra cards, you're dead more often than not.

Regarding turbo depths, you can beat all of those situations by not playing like an ape. Obviously, you can lose any matchup where you draw poorly or you get nutdrawn, but on average you can beat all of those situations with an average hand from a standard Miracles list. I'm not saying the matchup is a bye, but simply discussing the high variance edge cases isn't useful.

I hope this was more insightful for you.

[twndomn]

Karakas has always done a poor job at beating Griselbrand, essentially any deck looking to put Griselbrand into play will have some other end-game threat be it Emrakul, or Sire of Insanity/Tidespout Tyrant or something else. Once your opponent has drawn 14 cards, put another Griselbrand into play plus the other threat, you essentially died to the first Griselbrand even if you bounced it.

Now you're just exaggerating using bad math. 20 - 8 from reanimate on Griselbrand - 14 life to draw 14 cards, that's not even valid. Griselbrand coming from Sneak and Show versus coming from BR Reanimator/Griselbrand-storm (tin-fin) are all different contexts. They happen at different turns and each archetype will draw different set of 7 cards per activation. If you are going to lump them all together, and then jump to the conclusion that Karakas will not be helpful against any of the archetypes, that's your personal blanket opinion.

Removed the flamier parts of this post. Keep it cool, bruh. -zilla

[prepare4robots]

Now you're just exaggerating using bad math. 20 - 8 from reanimate on Griselbrand - 14 life to draw 14 cards, that's not even valid. Griselbrand coming from Sneak and Show versus coming from BR Reanimator/Griselbrand-storm (tin-fin) are all different contexts. They happen at different turns and each archetype will draw different set of 7 cards per activation. If you are going to lump them all together, and then jump to the conclusion that Karakas will not be helpful against any of the archetypes, that's your personal blanket opinion.

How many Karakas do you recommend running twndomn?

[FGCmtg]

Now you're just exaggerating using bad math. 20 - 8 from reanimate on Griselbrand - 14 life to draw 14 cards, that's not even valid. Griselbrand coming from Sneak and Show versus coming from BR Reanimator/Griselbrand-storm (tin-fin) are all different contexts. They happen at different turns and each archetype will draw different set of 7 cards per activation. If you are going to lump them all together, and then jump to the conclusion that Karakas will not be helpful against any of the archetypes, that's your personal blanket opinion, most likely a result from sub-optimal game-play. How would any of your assessments be considered an insight?

I'm not sure what you're hoping to achieve with your approach to this discussion. Randomly throwing around accusations of sub-optimal game play don't really get us anywhere, generally it is best to assume a reasonable degree of intelligence/ability in the other person during a conversation like this otherwise there is no point in replying at all from your perspective other than self-indulgence.

Nobody playing miracles should be losing to the 7/7 lifelink flier part of Griselbrand, the part that kills you is Yawgmoth's Bargain which happens to be attached to it. Obviously the 14 life thing I was discussing is only sometimes, 7 cards is often enough to kill us, 14 happens plenty, yes they die when they are on zero life *claps*.

Karakas is 'helpful' in that the 7/7 goes back into their hand of now approx. 10 cards which will put Sneak Attack/Omniscience/Tidespout Tyrant + Sire + Gris into play, and in the case of Tin Fins, reanimates Gris with haste again and kills you with Tendrils/Brutality/Emrakul. Repeat - you never die to a big lifelink flier, so karakas is of minimal utility compared to the cost it incurs by having it in your starting 60, and it is of lower impact than other sideboard cards you could play.

If nobody played Wasteland or Blood Moon, and everyone played Griselbrand decks, then yes, Karakas would be better enough than plains to include as it has text where plains doesn't. That isn't the world we live in, so I don't play the card.

<end>

[drocker23]

seems the trend lately is moving away from mainboard Monastery Mentor to Entreat the Angels. While i've generally favored Monastery Mentor in the main as a crutch, is 3 Jace and 1 Entreat the Angels really enough to put away game 1's? It seems like it would be extremely difficult to put a game away even if you seem to have control of it without some way to lock the game down since Top + Counterbalance doesn't exist anymore and no decks are playing things like Ensnaring Bridge to lock the board down.

The most ideal way to win game 1 I can think of is to brainstorm Entreat the Angels to the top and then set up Force of Will to be revealed to Counterbalance when you go to miracle the card. Is this the approach to closing out games? or are there more factors involved such as intentionally running the clock down low in game 1, or online players attempting to time out the miracles players?

In my experience without any sort of a lock down mechanism, it is not unreasonable for an opponent to reclaim the board even in the late stages of the game while you're still digging for a way to actually close out the game.

[FGCmtg]

seems the trend lately is moving away from mainboard Monastery Mentor to Entreat the Angels. While i've generally favored Monastery Mentor in the main as a crutch, is 3 Jace and 1 Entreat the Angels really enough to put away game 1's? It seems like it would be extremely difficult to put a game away even if you seem to have control of it without some way to lock the game down since Top + Counterbalance doesn't exist anymore and no decks are playing things like Ensnaring Bridge to lock the board down.

The most ideal way to win game 1 I can think of is to brainstorm Entreat the Angels to the top and then set up Force of Will to be revealed to Counterbalance when you go to miracle the card. Is this the approach to closing out games? or are there more factors involved such as intentionally running the clock down low in game 1, or online players attempting to time out the miracles players?

In my experience without any sort of a lock down mechanism, it is not unreasonable for an opponent to reclaim the board even in the late stages of the game while you're still digging for a way to actually close out the game.

Entreat and 3 JTMS is plenty to kill your opponent. A reasonable amount of the time you can win with a pair of Snapcasters protected by Counterbalance. Counterbalance is still enough to lock your opponent out of most spells in the late game, even without Top.

I'd say the primary win condition is JTMS, with Entreat being your 'Jace on 13' (credit to WhiteFaces for this analogy) when you don't have enough cards to ultimate your opponent and not deck out, or if there's some other time sensitive issue in the game. The deck does require you to play quickly - you can't sit considering every Ponder or Portent for longer than a couple of seconds - you need to be aware of what your plan is at all points, so that you know when you need to dig aggressively for Entreat as early as is safe to do so.

[AnziD]

kenta hiroki asked me a couple questions about miracles after the MTG First 40 duals event. You can find the link here: http://www.hareruyamtg.com/article/sp/category/detail/4922?ismodesmartphone=on . The article is in Japanese (and has trimmed some of what I wrote), but you can find the unabridged English version below. Enjoy!

Q:so the first question is basic. Why do you like Miracles and how long have you playing the deck?

A: I started playing Miracles in the spring of 2014 after challenging myself to improve at Magic. I had only recently started playing competitive Legacy and found myself losing more than I wanted with my deck at the time - Show & Tell. After some serious self-reflection, I realized the reason I was losing so much was partly due to my play but also a function of the deck I was playing. I found myself too many times in situations where my linear deck simply didn't have the options available to handle unfavorable board-states or allow me to leverage my skill as player against my opponent. Around this time Reid Duke wrote an article, "The Best Way to Win in Legacy", in which he described how the recipe to success in the format was sticking with one deck and mastering it. Admittedly, I was guilty of flip-flopping through a number of decks, so I decided then and there to follow Reid's advice, pick 1 deck, and never let it go. After lots of browsing, I stumbled on the Miracles gameplay of Brian-Braun Duin and Joe Lossett, and the spike in me instantly started drooling as I watched the two masters Matrix-dodge their way through all the tricks and traps their opponents threw at them. And yeah, it was love at first spin. Sure, I had no idea what I was doing when I started, but I could sense the seemingly limitless depth and flexibility the deck presented. Today, thousands of spins and a ban later, the deck has a lot less raw power but still retains that depth of options that rewards me for playing the deck well.

Q: Yeah, from my experience, miracles was the deck that I didnt know the right play every single game how many I tried to go back and think. so Speaking of top, how did top ban change? I know that was the drastic change, but the deck has still been keep up in top tier.

A: Yeah the Top ban was devastating both for the deck and for me personally. From the deck's perspective, the most obvious loss was the Top-Counterbalance soft lock. No longer is there this low-investment late game destroyer. But for me, what I missed the most was being able to stop all the turbo xerox nonsense the hyper-efficient Legacy decks are capable of, like Probe into Ponder, Therapy, flashback Therapy gg kind of thing. The lock was very good at slowing down the pace of the game, and after the ban I was definitely struggling with Miracles to beat those strategies. Don't get me started about dying to Bolt!! Of course, there were other downsides too - not being able to reliably cast Terminus at instant speed or hide critical spells from discard or even have a consistent engine to support my favorite card, Predict. The deck just felt a lot less consistent, but that made sense since you no longer had the reliability of Top. Playing matchups the way I did before the ban also just didn't work. Turns out, the deck changed a lot more than I initially thought. It was the subtle things - like having to use my removal more aggressively against Delver to not get burned out or having to Force of Will creatures more often or even playing with cards I never played with before like Leyline of Sanctity. When I first started playing right after the ban, the deck seemed really bad. It still had some power behind Terminus, but it just kept dying to itself, aka too inconsistent to keep up with the more efficient decks. Let me tell you - Portent is no replacement for Divining Top. In fact, that card is really, really bad. It just happens to work really well with Terminus and Terminus is almost the only reason to play this deck now. Things had to change. And they did! The first few drafts that were succeeding, largely due to the innovation of Callum Smith, Nicklas Lallo, and friends, were just UW Predict-value piles that maxxed out on cantrips and card draw and tried to bury the opponent in card advantage. There were some obvious flaws with this early version. Storm using Cabal Therapy was just too efficient at shredding the defensive 7-card hand. Hymn to Tourach allowed Czech Pile to snowball into the better Snapcaster control deck. Loam and Punishing Fire in game 1 were unbeatable. And even Grixis Delver, a matchup that was favored (slightly) for Miracles, would just counter Predict and make the Miracles deck too inconsistent. In other words, if our answers didn't line up well with the threats our opponent presented, we lost. Previously we had CB+Top to handle the random elements, but now... not so much. I don't remember where on the timeline it happened, but I had been keeping track of the players who had been succeeding with UW control, mostly players from Japan and Dan "61/14" Miller. And the common card that they were playing that I wasn't was... surprise! Counterbalance. My gut reaction after the ban was that the card was just too inconsistent to rely on. The closest we could come to locking someone out was with Jace, the Mind Sculptor in play, but even then we could only eliminate a single CMC. But after playing with the card some, I realized that it was more than good enough, and significantly better than the other cards it was replacing, like Ethersworn Canonist and Leyline. And if you think about it, it makes sense. Lock out CMC 1 vs the Probe/Therapy decks or put two CMC 2 spells to beat Lands. Blind flip to reveal for fetches and Predict. And so on. Also, playing more with the deck we were able to learn how we needed to adapt our play to start winning matchups again. The deck is a different beast and now requires different strategies and tactics to win. But what made the deck "okay" to "reasonably good" in my eyes was the 1U Ixalan enchantment - Search for Azcanta.

Q: so from your list last weekend, how did you come up with the list. Some interesting approach like No mentors in the main and SB, total 4 Flusters main and sb, 3-1 split sweeper, Back to basics.


A: My list is definitely impacted by my preferences in playing the deck. To explain this it is necessary to understand my deckbuilding philosophy, which is built on the pillar of favoring consistency over power. The idea here is that, even though I will have fewer of the glamorous 1-of "whammy" cards, my deck will be packed with generic answers that are applicable across the broad spectrum of all Legacy decks. For example, instead of playing 2 Ethersworn Canonists that are good mostly vs Storm, I have the 3rd and 4th Flusterstorms which can come in against Delver and Czech Pile. Or, instead of Izzet Staticaster for Death & Taxes/Infect/Elves, I have Supreme Verdict for ALL creature decks. Sure, Canonist and Staticaster are more powerful in the matchups they are great in, but Flusterstorm and Verdict are more powerful in the matchups the other two cards are worse in. I would be okay with Flusterstorm in the Storm matchup, but definitely not be okay with Canonist in the Delver matchup. Additional justification for playing the 50/50 cards over the 70/30 cards is I can leverage my skill to bump that 50 to a 51 or 52 so that over the course of infinite games I win more matches overall than with the 70/30 cards. Thus, I prefer cards with a high floor and low ceiling.

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Portent
3 Search for Azcanta
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Predict
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Council's Judgment
4 Force of Will
2 Counterbalance
1 Counterspell
1 Flusterstorm
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Back to Basics
1 Entreat the Angels
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
5 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa

3 Flusterstorm
3 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Back to Basics
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Disenchant
2 Engineered Explosives


To go through specific card choices for the maindeck:

2 Portent vs 3 Portent - I think this was one of the tougher choices to make, as silly as that might sound. Its actually really difficult to measure the impact of playing or not playing a single cantrip because the metrics to evaluate it are just too subjective. Its not as easy a decision as Swords over Bolt where I can see the Bolt not kill the Tarmogoyf, its always a question of whether I am finding my deck consistent "enough". Did I draw the Disenchant for the Sylvan Library on time? Did I find my 4th land drop on turn 4 for Jace? In those situations I just think its easier to be lazy and default to the safer choice of 3 Portent. It means I'll have fewer 1-land hands with no cantrips. It means I'll be able to proc Terminus on my opponent's turn more often. It means I'll have one less card to have to worry about boarding out. Its the type of stress thats probably not worth the trouble of worrying about. So why not 4 Portent, Anuraag? Let's be clear - Portent is still a bad card. A baaaaaaad, bad card. I've already come to terms with playing it, but too many times I've been at 4 life looking for that Plow to stop my opponent's Deathrite only to draw...

3 Search For Azcanta, 2 Snapcaster Mage, 2 Predict - The way I came about these numbers was interesting. My list from the SCG Team Open in November featured 3 of each of these cards. If you know me, you know I love me some Predict. And Snapcaster Mage has been a 3-of staple in the deck for who knows how long. Most lists only play 2 Search. Anuraag, what are you doing?! Let me explain. Remember, my deck needs to operate as consistently as possible. On turn 3, Predict drawing two cards is far, far more powerful than Search for Azcanta's pseudo-scry ability. But what are the worst case scenarios, especially in the highest ELOs? In my experience, an early Predict is very difficult to resolve postboard in the fair blue matchups. The card has proven its value and (I like to think) it's earned the respect it deserves. So unlike before, my opponents now aggressively counter it when possible. When I can't fight to protect it, the card can be so painful to play with. The reason is that it just costs too much. I am okay with spending a turn to try to draw some cards - playing Terminus gives me that luxury. But what I am not okay with is sacrificing percentage points by suboptimally stacking my cantrips in a way that punishes me if Predict doesn't resolve. Before, I had Top to simply reorder the cards. But now, my cantrips work one time and one time only, so drawing even 1 card is an inefficiency I have learned I cannot afford. Cutting the 3rd Snapcaster Mage is something new for me - I did it back when I won Eternal Extravaganza 6, but like every other blue mage, if I can play 4 I most definitely will. The issue with Snapcaster I find comes very specifically from the Grixis Delver matchup. Arguably (Bob, if you're reading this close your browser now) the current best deck in Legacy , I want to win this matchup all the time every time. The situations I find myself losing are the ones where I can't escape the early game. Maybe I draw too many duals, maybe my opponent YOLOs into a Terminus but doesn't get punished. But the one that feels the worst is looking at a hand of 2 or 3 Snapcasters on turn 4 with a graveyard of Ponders and a Deathrite on the other side of the table. It's great in the late game when both sides are topdecking, but in the early game it can be a little clunky and too easy to interact with. My solution for the lack of Predict and Snapcaster is to play 3 Search for Azcanta, the card I think is almost solely responsible for the deck's recent success. The card is an engine all on its own - in the early game it filters away cards you don't need, in the mid-game it ramps you to snowball faster, and in the late game it drowns the opponent in card advantage. Of these 3 effects, transforming into a blue source is probably the most powerful, followed by the early game filtering and lastly the card draw. However, the takeaway should be that the card functions by itself. It doesn't require me to know the top card of my deck or need me to have cast certain spells to be especially useful. It is more consistent, but less powerful. Sound familiar?

3 Terminus 1 Supreme Verdict - This split is a function of playing Search for Azcanta. While Terminus is the reason to play Miracles, there's a slight issue with finding it off a Sunken Ruin activation and then not being able to cast it for a turn or two. Verdict solves this issue by giving me something I can dig for and cast with relative (-to-Terminus) ease. And let's be real - "uncounterable" is silly. Really silly. Verdict doesn't come without downside though; there are definitely situations where it is strictly worse than Terminus. On turns 1 to 3, it does almost nothing. It will only ever be sorcery speed in this list. The worst part of this card is the WW cost. Playing Verdict actually disrupts the deck's entire construction. On turn 4 I'd ideally have UUUW to maybe play Counterbalance or Snapcaster+Cantrip and protect it with Flusterstorm. Now there are more situations where I find myself fetching UUWW to cast Verdict through Wasteland. With UUWW, boarding patterns and the range of counterspells I can play is affected, which brings me to the next point...


2 Counterbalance, 1 Counterspell, 1 Flusterstorm - Mana is everything in Magic. It's the fundamental axis on which the game revolves around. Accordingly, the spells I want to play must align with what I can cast. As I mentioned earlier, UUU in a world of WW spells is difficult to accomplish. My tradeoff is limiting as many UU spells as I can, and the result is this countermagic configuration. I still want at least one copy of Counterspell as its universal applicability makes it a great card to draw to in the mid and late game. Unfortunately I am not a fan of additional copies in the 75 as the card can actually be quite inefficient in stages of the game where I need to operate as low to the ground as possible. Specifically this is on turn 1 to 3 for matchups like BUG Delver or Czech Pile where Counterspell could be a great card, but not necessarily in that moment or against more cheaply costed spells. To retain the density of countermagic in my maindeck, I've opted for a single copy of Flusterstorm. Flusterstorm is still great in the fair blue and combo matchups in game 1, to the point where the downside is a risk I am comfortable taking. In this situation, I err to power over consistency because without Flusterstorm in the deck, I do not feel like I meet the baseline power-level the deck needs to perform. Finally, the Counterbalances. Counterbalance is a card I am torn on. It has the potential to be backbreakingly powerful, yet is clearly imbued with blind-flip variance. It's a great tool to have in game 1 against decks like Lands or Storm, where you can manipulate the top of your deck to almost completely shut down their strategies. It's also great to prison out your opponent on turn 10 when your Jace is drawing cards every turn. The situations where I am not a fan are the low-resource game states where you've burned all your cantrips trying to survive and are now in topdeck mode. Its just very disheartening to have your opponent topdeck a creature of a random CMC only to have you flip a fetchland. Don't get me wrong though - the card is absolutely necessary. It gives the deck a semblance of inevitability that gives Miracles its very draw-go essence. But to rely on it like we did in the past with Top is definitely a trap.

1 Back to Basics - To make up for not playing the 3rd Counterbalance yet still wanting more prison aspects to the deck, I chose to play 1 Back to Basics. I was never a huge fan of this card but lately have really enjoyed this effect against the tier 1 decks. Obviously this card shines when your opponent (correctly) assumes you play no Wastelands and only fetches duals. It's also great very specifically against Rishadan Port, one of the few cards that can steal inevitability away from this deck. But despite being vulnerable to freshly drawn lands in a way Blood Moon is not, I think that Back to Basics forcing my opponent to commit more resources is a very underrated benefit of the card. One of the most sinister poisons in high-octane Legacy matches is drawing your 5th or 6th land and immediately committing it as a resource. Unlike other formats, Legacy is extremely efficient, so the diminishing returns in land drops is especially real. You don't (usually) need 8 lands in play to cast the 3 1-mana spells in your hand. Instead, its probably better to save those lands for a more powerful Brainstorm down the line. But, when Back to Basics forces any player to commit more lands to cast spells, those unrefundable resources become a liability that the Miracles player can capitalize on. One downside to Back to Basics is that it does not synergize well with Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin. As poor as it sounds, in testing these situations usually do not matter too much as either Back to Basics has locked up the game, will stay in my hand uncast, or Azcanta has drawn enough cards to not be necessary anymore.

1 Entreat, 0 Mentor - "So what's the consensus now? Mentor or Entreat? Which is better?". I hear this question a lot, and every time I say what I say now - it's preference. In a deck like Miracles, the actual threat that ends the game rarely matters from a theoretical perspective. As Miracles-Master-turned-vegan-monk Philipp Schoenegger once said, "If I could win all my matches with a single copy of Raging Goblin as a wincon, I would do just that". To determine whether Entreat or Mentor or something else is "better", the first question one must answer is "How do I want to play this deck?". Personally, I prefer the style of playing to "not lose" rather than playing to win. It may sound a little backwards but the idea is that once I have established control using cards like Jace, Counterbalance, or Back to Basics, the actual win will ...inevitably... come, so I focus entirely on stabilizing and pulling ahead when I can. For this kind of strategy, I choose to play Entreat as it is the most powerful and resilient one-card combo available. Even though the flurry of angels isn't as readily available on my opponent's endstep, 20 to 28 power worth of flyers is still impressively difficult to manage for the average opponent. Monastery Mentor is definitely a powerful counterpart to Entreat. Untapping on any turn with Mentor in play is usually lights out. My issue with Mentor is that a lot of things have to go right for Mentor to take off. The biggest issue with Mentor is that it is significantly less resilient. Dying to almost every removal spell especially sucks since its a lot harder to protect Mentor with Counterbalance. This fragility means I'll likely have to play multiple copies of Mentor since I can't rely on just the single copy. Suddenly, my deck becomes more focused on winning rather than not dying, and that is not in line with my overall game plan. Mentor is really good against postboard nonsense like Bitterblossom or Winter Orb in ways that my current list is not. However, I believe the other situations one might call for Mentor are sufficiently handled by other card choices, like the 2nd Verdict or 4th Blast. I might lose some percentage points against really narrow hate, but the percentage points I gain by playing Entreat are for now more than I am losing otherwise.


Manabase - 5th Island over 3rd Tundra to complement Back to Basics.


With regards to the sideboard, I think the individual choices make sense when you look at how they perform against the different subsections of Legacy decks - Flusterstorm is great vs combo, Blast is great vs fair blue decks, Surgical for graveyard hate, and the remaining removal spells and mana denial for the non-blue decks. However, you'll notice when looking at my sideboard that there is a lot of redundancy. Cards you might find in my list and not others are the 4th copies of Flusterstorm and Blast. Postboard I really want my deck to be as lean as possible, and these 1-mana spells are probably the best in the business. 4 Blast is nothing new, but the 4th Flusterstorm needs a little justification. As a control deck, I typically have targets in the back of my mind for what I want to beat. Notably, the decks I am interested in absolutely crushing are Delver and Czech Pile. What I've learned through infinite games is that Flusterstorm is phenomenal both offensively and defensively against this deck. On the play or draw it's absolutely remarkable at stopping Hymn to Tourach (the most important threat Pile can present), Stifle, Force, Blast and any Brainstorms along the way. Most people might not enjoy the extra Flusterstorms in these matchups, but on turns 1 and 2 I always found myself begging to have just one copy in my hand. The downside is that in the late game the card is not as great, but my focus in these matchups is to survive first and let my stronger cards (Search, Jace, etc) do the heavy lifting later on. The way my sideboard is constructed at the moment, there are some glaring weaknesses. But currently the meta is not in a position to take advantage of those weaknesses so I will keep playing this configuration.

[NimbleJosh]

Hello, I participated in a 1k that turned into a 2k at Gaming Etc in Acton Mass over the weekend. Finished 14th out of 95 with a 5-2 record. Had my breakers been better I could have been top 8. Here’s the list…
3x Snapcaser
3x Monastery Mentor
2x Jace the Mind Sculptor
3x Counterbalance
1x Search for Azcatana
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
3x Portent
2x Predict
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Force of Will
4x Terminus
2x Counterspell
1x Unexpectedly Absent
1x Arid Mesa
4x Flooded Strand
4x Scalding Tarn
3x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island
4 x Islands
2x Plains
Side Board:
1x Karakas
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Surgical Extraction
3x Red Blast
2x Flusterstorm
2x Disenchant
1x Containment Priest
1x Ethersworn Cannonist
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Bloodmoon
Round 1 (Miracles):
Game one we did a little back and forth. I landed a mentor while he had two cards. One is a swords, I force. The other is a swords, I force. We are both hell bent. He rips a blind terminus. In the next few turns he lands a Jace and counterbalance. I scoop it up before we kill too much time. Out 4x Swords and 2x Terminus, In 3x Blast 2x disenchant. Game two I get a turn two counter balance followed by a mentor. I floated a terminus on top of my deck which countered 2 of his. Mentor seals the deal in two turns. Game three, read game two again… (1-0)
Round 2 (4c Control):
I don’t remember much about this match other then Hymm hit me 4 times in the two games I lost. (1-1)
Round 3 (Burn):
Game one I land a turn two counter balance. I had to play pretty tight as my life was at 1. I ended up storming off with mentor for the win. Out 3x terminus 1x UA In 2x fluster 2x disenchant. Game two was pretty much the same. He kept a spell heavy hand and was punished by counter balance. He did try to fireblast me in response to an alpha strike, I swordsed a 5/5 monk to stay alive and win. (2-1)
Round 4 (Belcher):
Game one I got belched. Out 4x swords, 2x terminus In 2x flusterstorm, 2x disenchant, 1x EE 1x Cannonist. I’m on the play, he storms off and make 22 goblins turn 1. I drop and EE turn 2 and wipe his board. I slowly win with a Jace ultimate. Game 3 my opener was 2 force, flusterstorm and some assortment of lands and cantrips. He doesn’t attempt a turn one win. Turn two he storms into empty which I fluster. He has enough mana to drop belcher which I force. I win the match off a mentor. (3-1)
Round 5 (4c Control):
Game one takes 35 minutes and I loose. Out 3x swords and 1x terminus, in 3x red blast and 1x EE. He never saw a red source game 1 and is shocked when his Leo is blasted off a fetch. I close the game quick with mentor. Game three goes to time. I’m at 6 and he’s at 4. I have a monk token and snap, he has 2 DRS. I top deck an EE and pop it for 1 and swing. He gained life off his DRS pre pop so he’s still at 4. He rips a Leo, I counter it, he salts out. (4-1)
Round 6 (Punishing Theives)
Game one is interesting; I have no idea what he’s playing. At one point I brainstorm and he slams a notion thief. He draws his two cards as I put two back. I then say, “poo I had a swords I could have played.” He puts his two cards back on his deck and says, “Then play it, you’re good.” Guy was great. Long story short, I couldn’t compete with his threat density (LotV, Jace, Chandra, Dak) and he had punishing fire to deal with mentor. My opponent was great but I felt the match was unwinnable. I lost in game two. (4-2)
Round 7 (Lands):
Game one he has a fast combo and I have no way to deal. Out 1x counterbalance 1x counterspell 4x terminus, in 1x bloodmoon, 2x disenchant, 2x surgical 1x karakas. Game two I baited his wasteland with a volcanic and landed a karakas to bounce his token. I then stormed off with mentor. Game three was very slow, he turn 2 sphere which was forced and turn three sphere which was countered. I landed a mentor. He attempts to punishing fire while I’m tapped out. In response I surgicaled a random card in his grave yard. I built a small army of tokens to the point where I swordsed his ML token and was still able to kill him through the 20 life gain.
Overall the deck felt solid. 4c Control is annoying, seems to be very draw dependant. The thieves deck also seemed almost unwinnable. I probably could have boarded better, he said red blasts and karakas and clique would have been good against him.. Not sure I like the SB karakas but I never went up against S&T or reanimater.

[AppallinglyDull]

Hello, I participated in a 1k that turned into a 2k at Gaming Etc in Acton Mass over the weekend. Finished 14th out of 95 with a 5-2 record. Had my breakers been better I could have been top 8.

Congrats! I was at the same tournament and finished 3-2-2, out of even top 32 contention. Both draws were against Port/Vial decks, and had games where my opponent had 3+ Ports keeping me off actually winning, even though he had no other action. One went to time in game 3 where I had a won board state; in the other I won a grindy, come-from-behind game 2 with less than a minute on the clock. I was playing Entreat + CJ in the main instead of Mentor, and with some differences in the sideboard as well.

Was your Lands opponent named Jim, by any chance? I played him on Lands in R2 and lost to two Spheres on board in game 3. (I didn't have the counters or the Disenchants.) Super nice guy.

[AppallinglyDull]

kenta hiroki asked me a couple questions about miracles after the MTG First 40 duals event. You can find the link here: http://www.hareruyamtg.com/article/sp/category/detail/4922?ismodesmartphone=on . The article is in Japanese (and has trimmed some of what I wrote), but you can find the unabridged English version below. Enjoy!

This was really interesting. Thanks for sharing!

[NimbleJosh]

Congrats! I was at the same tournament and finished 3-2-2, out of even top 32 contention. Both draws were against Port/Vial decks, and had games where my opponent had 3+ Ports keeping me off actually winning, even though he had no other action. One went to time in game 3 where I had a won board state; in the other I won a grindy, come-from-behind game 2 with less than a minute on the clock. I was playing Entreat + CJ in the main instead of Mentor, and with some differences in the sideboard as well.

Was your Lands opponent named Jim, by any chance? I played him on Lands in R2 and lost to two Spheres on board in game 3. (I didn't have the counters or the Disenchants.) Super nice guy.

I don’t think his name was Jim.

[Wurst_]

i'm just back home from Eternal Clash in northern Germany. We had 103 Players this time. I played the following Decklist:
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Entreat the Angels
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Portent
2 Predict
4 Force of Will
2 Counterbalance
1 Counterspell
1 Flusterstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
1 Councils Judgement
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Jace, tms
2 Search for Azcanta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Plains

Sideboard
3 Pyroblast
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Monastery Mentor
2 Disenchant
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Counterbalance
1 Sorcerers Spyglas

Round 1 vs Elves
Game 1 a timly Terminus cleans up the board followed by a Entreat for 3 tokens which was good enough.
Sideboard: -1 Jace, -1 Counterspell, -1 Plains // + 2 Monastery Mentor, +1 Flusterstorm
Game 2 he starts with turn 1 zenith for arbor turn 2 visionry + Symbiote. i have the sword and follow with a turn 2 search for azcanta (i actually don't like boarding search out vs decks that potentially board in choke vs. us) he later gets choke in play but my flipped azcanta keeps me in play until i can explosive the choke, followed up by a jace and entreat again
Round 2 vs Miracles
game 1 i start with turn 2 azcanta vs his turn 2 balance. I wait until azcanta flippes and have explosives just when he dropped his own search so i can trade 2 for 1. The game proceeds for another 15 minutes until i hace a kill. He played with 2 mentor and 2 absent maindeck which spelled some trouble but i got to manage it. With 15 minutes left we start game 2. he had turn 3 clique which beat me down to 8 but i then got balance, search along a mentor online which was obv good.
Sideboarding
- 4 Swords, -2 Terminus, -2 Plains, -1 Entreat, // + 3 Pyroblast, +2 Flusterstorm, + 1 Counterbalance, +1 Red Elemental Blast, +2 Mentor
Round 3 vs Eldrazi
Game 1 i got smashed pretty fast by turn 1 Chalice into Dorks with me having loads of cantrips in hand. Game 2 he had turn 1 thorn which ai can force, than i got an timly terminus followed by snapcaster beats. Game 3 i mull to six and keep Flooded Strand, Jace, Portent, Swords, Explosives, Brainstorm. HE starts with turn 1 Thorn which is really bad news but i draw my second land in time and cast portent just after he had Thought-Knot Seer for my Swords. Portent shows me another Portent, another jace and a Terminus. I think for quiet a long time and choose to shuffel and draw because i thought i just need to draw a land in time which was propably wrong. he dropped smasher and killed me in 2 swings. i guess i just need to take the terminus in my next turn and hope to draw some lands afterwards.
Sideboarding
-2 Counterbalance, -1 Counterspell, -1 Flusterstorm, -1 Jace // + 2 Mentor, 2 Disenchant, 1 Spyglas

Round 4 vs Ur-Delver
Both games i manage to to stabilize on just unter 10 life with balance and jace in play which is good enough.
Sideboarding
-1 Jace, -Judgement, 2 search, 2 Force, Counterspell // +2 Flusterstorm, 2 Mentor, 1 Counterbalance, 2 Pyroblast

Round 5 vs Elves
I fail to draw very timly Terminus which leaves him with a Cradle that makes tons of mana. Game 1 i can counter a deadly natural order but the following nissa is to good. Game two i get choked but my flipped azcanta keeps me in play until i have explosives for choke but in the same turn he has nissa which is to good again.
Sideboarding
-1 Jace, 1 Predict, 1 Counterspell, 1 Plains // + 2 Mentor, 1 Flusterstorm, 1 Spyglas (i'm still not happy with my boarding vs elves. i knew that he was on 2 nissa maindeck so i decided to board the spyglas too)
Round 6 Omni Show
Game 1 i have counterspell and force earlyon but just island and plains for lands so i need to cantrip for my 3rd land, but doesn't have counterspell up because of my plains after i forced a turn 2 show and till, which makes sneak attack to good to beat. Game 2 and 3 i Board a massiv amount of cards and surgical show and tell in both games and shut sown sneak attack with spyglas in both postboard games.
Sideboarding
-4 Sowrds, 4 Termins, 2 Plains, 1 Search, 1 Judgement, 1 Explosives, 1 Entreat // + 3 Pyroblast, 3 Surgical, 2 Flusterstorm, 2 Mentor, 2 Disenchant, 1 Red Elemental Blast, 1 Spyglas

Round 7 vs Grixis Delver
Game 1 i can handle every creature he throws at me and land a jace on 7 life which takes the game. Game 2 i mull to 5 and keep a hand with 2 lands, fluster search and balance which is ok and keeps me in play for a few turns but i get grinded out in the end. Game 3 i land a counterbalance which counters 3 spells. i find a really timly terminus for 2 creatures in 7 life when he had 2 bolts left in hand. after that i can land jace and he responds with one of his bolts. i reaveal another 1 drop on top and jace takes down the game.
Sideboarding
-2 Force of will, -1 Counterspell, -1 Search for Azcanta, -1 Jace // +2 Mentor, 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Counterbalance

5-2 in the end is good enough for 11th. I had loads of fun again and the only changes i might make is cutting a 4th blasteffect for the 4th snapcaster but i am still not sure on this. Another thing that might me ok is cutting the 3rd surgical or 3rd balance for a single leyline of sanctity in the board. Especially the spyglas was really good all day and i would keep it for the moment. I would really love some feedback to my keep in game 3 and the situation with my portent on turn 2 as well as my sideboarding vs elves.

[twndomn]

Sideboarding
- 4 Swords, -2 Terminus, -2 Plains, -1 Entreat, // + 3 Pyroblast, +2 Flusterstorm, + 1 Counterbalance, +1 Red Elemental Blast, +2 Mentor

5-2 in the end is good enough for 11th. I had loads of fun again and the only changes i might make is cutting a 4th blasteffect for the 4th snapcaster but i am still not sure on this. Another thing that might me ok is cutting the 3rd surgical or 3rd balance for a single leyline of sanctity in the board. Especially the spyglas was really good all day and i would keep it for the moment. I would really love some feedback to my keep in game 3 and the situation with my portent on turn 2 as well as my sideboarding vs elves.

Cutting 2 plains is pretty extreme, I would only do this if I were on the draw for game 2. I can see 19 in certain MU, but not in mirror.

I know most MTGO players are running 4 Blast + 3 Flusterstorm to dominate the stack. It's such an in-breed meta thing to do. I would not run 4 Red Blast effect to begin with.

I don't understand why one would play Spyglass instead of needle. Needle can get cut off by Chalice on 1, that's about it, you don't need to look at opponent's hand to figure out what to name, you should just know once you put your opponent on an archetype.

White Leyline is not a silver bullet one-of. You have to run multiple to actually enjoy its effect. You might be able to justify as one-of if you run Enlightened Tutor package, maybe.

I disagree on approach in SB games against Elves. First, you have to respect Choke. Second, you have to respect Nissa. Flusterstorm is not going to help against there. These are all in addition to the usual suspects (play patterns) coming from Elves.

[sikariok9]

I have been playing this list with some success, what do you guys think about Nahiri?
It is really nice/fast as long as you dont draw Emrakul...also extra enchantment hate and somewhat cantrip...
The Big Boy can be also used to reset your graveyard in a grindy game, with Azcanta, predict or Nahiri.

1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
2 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Portent
2 Predict
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
1 Council's Judgment

2 Counterbalance
2 Search for Azcanta

3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Thorn
1 Nahiri, the Harbinger
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard:
1 Moat
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Council's Judgment
2 Disenchant
3 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Snapcaster Mage / Null rod / Engineered explosives

As you can see I'm currently playing 0 monastery mentor in the 75...Actually im not missing them much...
What do you guys think about it?
Cheers

[Magicmarvin]

As you can see I'm currently playing 0 monastery mentor in the 75...Actually im not missing them much...
What do you guys think about it?
Cheers

I think its not good, bc Nahiri needs two slots dedicated to her instead of one with Eta. This dillutes the deck.

Also i think lacking mentor makes certain matchups worse. Especially elves and everything were u dont have invietability.

-But dont get me wrong if u are able to faster set up nahiri into emrakul than a mentor with some spells against decks that have a better lategame or outgrind us, then its better.

Look what i found in search for the rules text of nahiri:

https://pre00.deviantart.net/3965/th/pre/i/2016/349/a/6/nahiri_the_harbinger__after__commission__by_jaytee_faartist-darpuqm.jpg

[sikariok9]

Well,
You can substitute the 2nd slot for Nahiri (emrakul) for the 3rd predict or 3rd counterbalance, it is already a flex slot in my opinion.
What kind of decks or specific ones have a better lategame than we do? What others can outgrind us?
In the real lategame Emrakul is insanely strong, since you can shuffle back the whole graveyard, resetting your deck.

Concerning to monastery mentor, I always see him powerful, but makes you do suboptimal plays to pump him, and I think this is not the game plan. Everybody knows we playing SB mentors, so they can adapt and leave some removal, in which case you end up a) wasting resources to pump him then watching it die, b) waiting too long to drop him some with untapped mana, being almost at the same time thay you would play Nahiri.

I see SB entreat as a great wincon, since you include him in the MUs where he really shines, being a horrible draw in many others main deck.

Any more opinions?
PD: Nice pic XD

[NimbleJosh]

Well,
You can substitute the 2nd slot for Nahiri (emrakul) for the 3rd predict or 3rd counterbalance, it is already a flex slot in my opinion.
What kind of decks or specific ones have a better lategame than we do? What others can outgrind us?
In the real lategame Emrakul is insanely strong, since you can shuffle back the whole graveyard, resetting your deck.

Concerning to monastery mentor, I always see him powerful, but makes you do suboptimal plays to pump him, and I think this is not the game plan. Everybody knows we playing SB mentors, so they can adapt and leave some removal, in which case you end up a) wasting resources to pump him then watching it die, b) waiting too long to drop him some with untapped mana, being almost at the same time thay you would play Nahiri.

I see SB entreat as a great wincon, since you include him in the MUs where he really shines, being a horrible draw in many others main deck.

Any more opinions?
PD: Nice pic XD

If you’re playing mentor properly, you should be winning the game with in the next two turns he comes into play. That’s just my experience though.

[Magicmarvin]

Elves is a deck that tries to outgrind us in game 2, with the combination of mystic and symbiote, glimpse of nature and nissa.
I also can imagine that it is difficult to keep nahiri alive since they have so many critters.
The mentor is a very good card vs elves.

Eldrazi is a problematic matchup when they get into late game and keep eye of ugin plus reality smashers going.
The Eldrazi Post matchup i think is straight unwinnable, without going full beatdown with mentor and entreat.

I also think it is very difficult to set up nahiri emrakul against every deck that plays burn or creatures. Since in order to pull a win u always have to keep nahiri around for 3 turns.
I understand that u always can argue that this is no problem since u can reset everything with emrakul but this takes again longer and you have to jump further hoops.

But you are right to not play mentor in main deck, i also play my mentor in the side since i cant grab it with azcanta.

I also think that the mentor comes at a relatively low cost in the sb and can be boarded in in many matches as second wincon next to entreat.

[AnziD]

If you’re playing mentor properly, you should be winning the game with in the next two turns he comes into play. That’s just my experience though.

This statement is absurd. I think you mean "ideally" instead of properly. I absolutely understand I am nitpicking but Mentor has its risks and a blanket statement like "just play it better" is a cop-out. Without Top cantrips are used a lot earlier to stabilize and that makes Mentor a lot less powerful unless we're already winning the game. In that situation, sure proper play makes Mentor really good. But in other situations where we haven't stabilized and are forced to cast Mentor the card can be very embarrassing. In those situations Mentor was played as best as possible and simply wasn't enough. It's fine to look at other win conditions that are good in those situations.

[Magicmarvin]

This statement is absurd. I think you mean "ideally" instead of properly. I absolutely understand I am nitpicking but Mentor has its risks and a blanket statement like "just play it better" is a cop-out. Without Top cantrips are used a lot earlier to stabilize and that makes Mentor a lot less powerful unless we're already winning the game. In that situation, sure proper play makes Mentor really good. But in other situations where we haven't stabilized and are forced to cast Mentor the card can be very embarrassing. In those situations Mentor was played as best as possible and simply wasn't enough. It's fine to look at other win conditions that are good in those situations.

How do You win against a deck like elves.

I can imagine that the mu is terrible with your deck from the interview

[AnziD]

How do You win against a deck like elves.

I can imagine that the mu is terrible with your deck from the interview

Yea its certainly not easy. The plan is still straightforward - shut down Symbiote + Visionary, counter the bombs (Glimpse/Nissa/Choke/...maybe NO but unlikely), and wrath wrath wrath. I'm not sure how to adapt this matchup to the post-ban lists, but the thought of Surgical and Back to Basics did cross my mind. Obviously I am not in love with this kind of strategy, but I've never actually resolved a Surgical versus Elves so I don't even know if its good/bad. Gut says high risk high reward. Between EE/Verdict/Snapcaster/counterspells its not unreasonable to get something in the GY but the variance still exists. Post-ban I have resolved B2B/Moon vs the deck a few times and it was great twice and awful once. The time it was awful was vs reidderrabbit and I think it involved me punting plus him topdecking a Forest. The other two times it was a blowout, once preboard, once postboard (I kept it in because G1 I saw Trop for Leo and Cavern). I'm unsure though, I think land hate might be acceptable because the cheese factor is almost assured to work once, and when it does the games are so favorable. Without the cheese plan its really just grind vs grind, so Predict/Search/Jace are king. I actually think I'm off CB in the post-board games because its just too much variance for too little reward (unlike Surgical which potentially could have a high reward but again, I have no data so I can't really say its good or bad).

[Magicmarvin]

i always left cb in, its not bad on 1 or 2.

But i agree cutting cards for sb is hard and cb is a valid cut.
The only thing im 100% sure taking out is one plains since they have no wasteland.

Im playing a duplicate of the whitefaces list for reference.

[sikariok9]

As you can see, in the mentorless decklist I provided, there is an unique sideboard card. Yes, It is the moat.
Perfect to protect Nahiri and Jace from walking creatures, and also happens to be nuts VS the 2 decks you mentioned (elves and eldrazi). Nahiri also exiles choke and sylvan library.

[Whitefaces]

I'm still not sure on the right way to sideboard vs elves honestly.

I think I like CBs, but there's certainly merit to cutting them. Mentor is great, Flusters are great, I tend to hedge with 1 Disenchant for Choke and consider the second after I see one. I usually cut lands vs combo, but I don't really like it vs elves. Our cantrips are taxed to find relevant interaction the first few turns meaning we have less freedom to use them for lands if needed.

B2B/Moon is a blowout on a clean board for sure. It's not the kind of thing I like playing for, but it's worth trying more.

[JackaBo]

Elves bla bla

B2B/Moon is a blowout on a clean board for sure. It's not the kind of thing I like playing for, but it's worth trying more.

Isnt that win more though? If you swept you're already in good shape. If they have the crew assembled it does nothing.
Just board in your moat and counter gsz. :)

[Whitefaces]

Isnt that win more though? If you swept you're already in good shape. If they have the crew assembled it does nothing.
Just board in your moat and counter gsz. :)

Kind of. As a follow up play it can be devastating, it's quite situational though. Like I said, not really the way I'd approach the matchup, but it's high impact. They can rebuild really fast post terminus, Symbiote + Visionary is basically Griselbrand.

No way jose will I be playing a Moat. Much too narrow a card these days. And if Eldrazi became massively popular again, I'd probably just play something else.

[Magicmarvin]

What do u think about the jim davis deck

Monestary Mentor as main Wincon and 2 back to basics main
no counterbalances

In the feature matches agains soldiers and delver the back to basics were dead cards most of the time and terminus won those games.
Gut it was better than the other versions.

What do u think about the deck

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18668&d=316427&f=LE

[JackaBo]

I guess you can chose between azcanta and btb, as they dont go well together and both are good vs certain decks. Not sure why he cut balances, they should have been great in that field full of delver decks.

@whitefaces: The premiere way of fighting miracle these days seem to be TNN and liliana otlh. Moat stops both of these wincons, just saying ;)

[NimbleJosh]

Moat stops both of these wincons, just saying ;)

Humility does too for like $400 cheaper. Humility also stops grislbrand and emrakul.

[Whitefaces]

The decks playing TNN and LtLH are also playing plenty of cards that don't care about Moat too, it's still too narrow. Would you board it in vs Grixis Delver or Pile? Vs Delver the namesake card and DRS don't care about it, plus being a 4cmc sorcery speed card. Vs 4c DRSs, Strix and Jace ult don't care about it. When playing a bomb with a high cost you need it to have much more of an effect in matchups that you need it.

[Magicmarvin]

This is an article by jim davis explaining his deck

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/36752_Basic-Lands-Are-Better-Than-Duals-Back-To-Basics-In-Legacy.html

the gist is:

- he thinks wasteland is one of the strongest cards in the format and therefore he only wants to play basics

- going in hand with basics he plays back to basics now

- counterbalance is a win more

- entreat doesnt fit the deck since it (miracles in general, lel) cant go late anymore

- he generally moved his deck more in a tempo role and plays 2 color now

[atopebenidorm]

Hi. I am trying a 4c miracles right now. Maybe is a crazy idea but after play different combinations in some months ( with red ) i finally find the right versión (with black). This is the decklist:

3 snapcaster mage
4 baleful strix
1 entreat the angels

3 sylvan library
4 Brainstorm
4 ponder
4 terminus
4 swords
1 council judgement
4 fow
2 flusterstorm
3 jace tms
1 engineered explosives
1 Search for azcanta
1 spell pierce

2 Underground sea
2 tropical island
3 tundra
1 Island
1 plains
1 swamp
4 Flooded strand
4 polluted delta
2 misty rainforest

1 flusterstorm
3 surgical
1 ethersworn canonist
2 Vendilion clique
1 council judgement
1 entreat the angels
3 thoughtseize
1 supreme veredict
1 disenchant
1 zealous persecution

Yesterday i played some small tournaments at GP Madrid with great results: 7-1-2.

1-1 vs uw planeswalker control. I Will win but the game finally in turns. I need 3 minutes more to win...

2-0 vs dredge.
2-1 vs 4c control. Entreat un the right moment= win
2-1 vs elves
0-2 vs elves
1-1 va grixis delver ( I missplayed with my jace when the match was nearly over)
2-0 vs merfolk
2-1 vs Lands
2-1 vs ant

I only Lost vs elves (Julian Knab). I missplayed a lot in those games.

The library was very strong vs combo and control. It let me keep the miracles on top. Baleful was mvp vs delver and gives me extra protection when I play jaceand time. The cantrip effect helps a lot in a control deck, the reason i don't play predict.

I think cheap counters are better than counterbalance by far because i need protect the terminus in the right moment. Probably try any hydroblast because pyroblast are really strong vs jace

[twndomn]

This is an article by jim davis explaining his deck

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/36752_Basic-Lands-Are-Better-Than-Duals-Back-To-Basics-In-Legacy.html

the gist is:

- he thinks wasteland is one of the strongest cards in the format and therefore he only wants to play basics

- going in hand with basics he plays back to basics now

- counterbalance is a win more

- entreat doesnt fit the deck since it (miracles in general, lel) cant go late anymore

- he generally moved his deck more in a tempo role and plays 2 color now

Thank you Jim, Back to Basics is now $70+ dollars before the Legacy GP. Good thing I got my copies long ago.

I wouldn't interpret as win-more, even though he wrote that regarding Entreat. He doesn't want to produce UU using his basic lands to play Counterbalance turn 2, he's not even interested, he rather find his plains early, answer threats, and maybe go tempo. Hence he's already decided he doesn't want CB to be part of his game plan. Also, he's committed in spending cantrips on Mentor, he will not give himself the option to set up CB triggers, again he's not interested. The stretch cantrips too thin argument he's also made it against Entreat.

I understand where he's coming from regarding CB. However, I feel he fundamentally misunderstood the use of CB. It's meant as a value card, cumulatively. There's rarely occasions you Want to spend brainstorm to setup, unless you must counter a Glimpse of Nature or Infernal Tutor. His points make sense in his build; the archetype as a whole might want to rethink about CB some more.

The argument of win-more for Entreat just doesn't make sense to me. I get it you want to load up on cantrip and spend them to create Monk tokens, but sometimes Mentor and Co. just cannot do it, people have game plans against Mentor. The reasons to play Entreat is that it is a standalone good card and it's not easy to hate it out.

Overall, his philosophy/approach is similar to Miracles in Eldrazi Winter, stop short of running Daze (flusterstorm instead).

[AnziD]

Hey all, here are some games with the new Preordain list I've been testing: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5SyfqNPooFxkN1NJcM0HRiLfuMXlZE8Y. No commentary this time around but hopefully this helps get an idea of how the list plays out.

[Hrothgar]

Hey all, here are some games with the new Preordain list I've been testing: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5SyfqNPooFxkN1NJcM0HRiLfuMXlZE8Y. No commentary this time around but hopefully this helps get an idea of how the list plays out.

This is very interesting.
Thanks Anzid foro share.

[NimbleJosh]

I understand where he's coming from regarding CB. However, I feel he fundamentally misunderstood the use of CB. It's meant as a value card, cumulatively. There's rarely occasions you Want to spend brainstorm to setup, unless you must counter a Glimpse of Nature or Infernal Tutor. His points make sense in his build; the archetype as a whole might want to rethink about CB some more.



In my experience, every mirror I’ve played comes down to who resolves counterbalance first. Also what are people’s thoughts on this basis land build with one volcanic and one mountain to play red blast in the board?

[Paul_Leger]

Also without counterbalance I feel like the deck is very vulnerable against discard spells, especially Cabal Therapy.
That said, the card is just huge against ANT I think.

[Magicmarvin]

I made a template that can be used for a sideboard map

the decklist is that one of itsunfair
with sideboarding configurations edited by him.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14N2hn6OPxm-gaM3Cts0h1KHNdSI3KQc9TDQuhRS4TOU/edit?usp=sharing

[AnziD]

Also without counterbalance I feel like the deck is very vulnerable against discard spells, especially Cabal Therapy.
That said, the card is just huge against ANT I think.

Turbo Xerox, Cabal Therapy, and Loam are like the biggest elements CB is great at shutting down. I am unsure what other solution best beats these three as well as CB.

[WThomas]

Can someone point me in the direction of the discord forum?

Thanks :)

[WThomas]

Can someone point me in the direction of the discord forum?

Thanks :)

Found it!

[twndomn]

In my experience, every mirror I’ve played comes down to who resolves counterbalance first. Also what are people’s thoughts on this basis land build with one volcanic and one mountain to play red blast in the board?

Another Jim Davis no-CB Convert
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=119763
Well SCG did make monk tokens of him. Interestingly, Karakas and Search as SB tech, his SB makes a lot more sense than Jim's.

Similar list in Kyoto 2018
https://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpkyo18/gpkyo18-finals-decklists-2018-03-25

[Minniehajj]

Another Jim Davis no-CB Convert
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=119763
Well SCG did make monk tokens of him. Interestingly, Karakas and Search as SB tech, his SB makes a lot more sense than Jim's.

Similar list in Kyoto 2018
https://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpkyo18/gpkyo18-finals-decklists-2018-03-25

Coval is literally just playing the "corrected" version of Jim's list, found here (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/36752_Basic-Lands-Are-Better-Than-Duals-Back-To-Basics-In-Legacy.html)

[vegetarian234]

Hey guys.

I’m really struggling with the 4c Control matchup.

I feel like they’re better at grinding than I am, and REB, Snap, REB is tough to beat.

I can’t ever stick a permanent. I just feel like I lose every interaction.

If it’s really needed I’ll post my list, but I’m more or less looking for general strategy because I must be playing it all wrong.

I always play to the board when possible so my cards don’t get hymned or thoughtseized away.

Any help would be much appreciated.

Thank you!

[Stefanogs]

Hey guys.

I’m really struggling with the 4c Control matchup.

I feel like they’re better at grinding than I am, and REB, Snap, REB is tough to beat.

I can’t ever stick a permanent. I just feel like I lose every interaction.

If it’s really needed I’ll post my list, but I’m more or less looking for general strategy because I must be playing it all wrong.

I always play to the board when possible so my cards don’t get hymned or thoughtseized away.

Any help would be much appreciated.

Thank you!

In this matchups you need to side out lands (you need to find spells), fow (2 for 1) and plow (just one for one). Need to side in REB, Fluster and... i really like to play 2 blood moons (they need to kp fow or hydroblast to deal with). Our best weapons are counterbalance, pyroblast, moon and flusterstorm backups.

I think 4c control is favored to us (ofc, there's some games were we got t2 hymn and t3 snap hymn...)

Gl!

[Echinoderm]

In this matchups you need to side out lands (you need to find spells), fow (2 for 1) and plow (just one for one). Need to side in REB, Fluster and... i really like to play 2 blood moons (they need to kp fow or hydroblast to deal with). Our best weapons are counterbalance, pyroblast, moon and flusterstorm backups.

I think 4c control is favored to us (ofc, there's some games were we got t2 hymn and t3 snap hymn...)

Gl!


Stefanogs, I was looking at your standstill miracles list down below and was very intrigued. How has that deck worked out? Does it have any bad matchups? Do you think you could splash a third color if you wanted?

Thanks!

[One With Nothing]

Could someone please direct me to the Discord server? The link on the primer page is expired. Thanks!

[Whitefaces]

Could someone please direct me to the Discord server? The link on the primer page is expired. Thanks!

Here you go!

https://discord.gg/sHGrP5F

[Minniehajj]

Could someone please direct me to the Discord server? The link on the primer page is expired. Thanks!

Hey sorry, it's been updated to a link that never expires! Thanks for bringing it to my attention!

I'll also take some time after Seattle to update the rest of this primer to more current decklists, since I haven't time to keep things up to date.

[Star|Scream]

Hi just looking for some opinions on which version I should buy into. I'm about $150 away from either buying another Tundra and playing UWr with blood moons and blasts or putting that money towards 2 back to basics, 1 karakas and playing the Jim Davis list. I may have an additional $150 in the future, but right now I just have that. My gut tells me to buy into the b2b because while they can be reprinted, one GP win or a few more top 8's with b2b will probably spike it pretty high, while Tundras seem to be stable for now..

Any thoughts?

[phlyp]

Hi just looking for some opinions on which version I should buy into. I'm about $150 away from either buying another Tundra and playing UWr with blood moons and blasts or putting that money towards 2 back to basics, 1 karakas and playing the Jim Davis list. I may have an additional $150 in the future, but right now I just have that. My gut tells me to buy into the b2b because while they can be reprinted, one GP win or a few more top 8's with b2b will probably spike it pretty high, while Tundras seem to be stable for now..

Any thoughts?

b2b is risky.... tundra is a pretty stable investment but i wouldnt build my deck towards moneymaking...if b2b is the better meta call buy it..
depending on jim davis really moved the meta with his calls UWr would be the better pick (show and tell underrated and a stable basic mana build you would definitely miss red blast and the main b2b would be blanks)
karakas is a pretty good investment even for both builds

[Whitefaces]

Hi just looking for some opinions on which version I should buy into. I'm about $150 away from either buying another Tundra and playing UWr with blood moons and blasts or putting that money towards 2 back to basics, 1 karakas and playing the Jim Davis list. I may have an additional $150 in the future, but right now I just have that. My gut tells me to buy into the b2b because while they can be reprinted, one GP win or a few more top 8's with b2b will probably spike it pretty high, while Tundras seem to be stable for now..

Any thoughts?

I would definitely get the Tundra. I don't see B2B going up much more if it does, it's not crucial to the deck. I believe UWr is better, and RL vs no RL.

[Magicmarvin]

https://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpsea18-legacy/top-8-decklists-2018-04-07

2 miracles decks in gp seattle top8 one mentor tempo and one portent miracles.

Both play one or more btb in main.

Portent miracles plays 2 snaps, 1 gideon, 1 clique (61 cards lel)

[twndomn]

After hearing how much traumas Stefanogs has created for the storm players via Soothsaying + CB, and then talking to him on beginning of the Day 2 of GP (got introduced via a mutual friend), gonna give Soothsaying another shot.

[WThomas]

After hearing how much traumas Stefanogs has created for the storm players via Soothsaying + CB, and then talking to him on beginning of the Day 2 of GP (got introduced via a mutual friend), gonna give Soothsaying another shot.

What were his thoughts on Soothsaying in other MUs?

I'm interested with the idea of playing it but also skeptical, it seems too slow verse Grixis Delver and poor verse G/Bx decks, or am I under valuing the card?

[Minniehajj]

https://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpsea18-legacy/top-8-decklists-2018-04-07

2 miracles decks in gp seattle top8 one mentor tempo and one portent miracles.

Both play one or more btb in main.

Portent miracles plays 2 snaps, 1 gideon, 1 clique (61 cards lel)

Luke had only 5 islands, not 6. The decklist was wrong

[Enderlbs]

Hi everyone!

I'm new both to this forum as well as the deck. My LGS has recently begun running Legacy tournaments after much pleading from several members of our community (including myself).
I've read through the primer as well as various older primers (pre-top banning).
I wanted some advice regarding decklist optimisation. Unfortunately, I'm on a budget and don't have several pieces that I've seen running around.
I own two Tundras but no Volcanics first of all, so I'm aiming for the straight UW list. However, I don't own any Back to Basics and as they've spiked considerably I'd prefer not to purchase them if possible. Some people say that they're critical, others no so much. How sub-optimal is it to run no B2B?
I also don't own any engineered explosives and would prefer not to run them as well.

My local meta is mainly comprised of the following:
Death and Taxes (1 or 2)
Storm (1)
Lands (1)
Sneak and Show (1-2)
Belcher (1)
Grixis Delver Death's Shadow (1) [Budget manabase reasons]
BUG Delver
Burn (Several)
Miracles (Several)

Would you say that Counterbalance would be preferable against this meta?

My current list:

Instant (17)
4x Brainstorm
2x Flusterstorm
4x Force of Will
3x Predict
4x Swords to Plowshares

Creature (6)
3x Monastery Mentor
3x Snapcaster Mage

Enchantment (3)
1x Search for Azcanta
2x Counterbalance

Sorcery (11)
4x Ponder
4x Portent
3x Terminus

Planeswalker (3)
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Land (20)
1x Arid Mesa
4x Flooded Strand
6x Island
3x Plains
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Tundra

Sideboard
1x Containment Priest
2x Council's Judgment
3x Disenchant
1x Entreat the Angels
1x Pithing Needle
1x Search for Azcanta
1x Spell Pierce
1x Supreme Verdict
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Vendilion Clique


I've also considered going up on 1 mana interaction such as Path to Exile or Spell Pierce and running the 4th Snapcaster Mage.

Any thoughts or advice on the main deck/side board?

Thanks a bunch!
:laugh:

[JackaBo]

Hi everyone!

I'm new both to this forum as well as the deck. My LGS has recently begun running Legacy tournaments after much pleading from several members of our community (including myself).
I've read through the primer as well as various older primers (pre-top banning).
I wanted some advice regarding decklist optimisation. Unfortunately, I'm on a budget and don't have several pieces that I've seen running around.
I own two Tundras but no Volcanics first of all, so I'm aiming for the straight UW list. However, I don't own any Back to Basics and as they've spiked considerably I'd prefer not to purchase them if possible. Some people say that they're critical, others no so much. How sub-optimal is it to run no B2B?
I also don't own any engineered explosives and would prefer not to run them as well.

My local meta is mainly comprised of the following:
Death and Taxes (1 or 2)
Storm (1)
Lands (1)
Sneak and Show (1-2)
Belcher (1)
Grixis Delver Death's Shadow (1) [Budget manabase reasons]
BUG Delver
Burn (Several)
Miracles (Several)

Would you say that Counterbalance would be preferable against this meta?

My current list:

Instant (17)
4x Brainstorm
2x Flusterstorm
4x Force of Will
3x Predict
4x Swords to Plowshares

Creature (6)
3x Monastery Mentor
3x Snapcaster Mage

Enchantment (3)
1x Search for Azcanta
2x Counterbalance

Sorcery (11)
4x Ponder
4x Portent
3x Terminus

Planeswalker (3)
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Land (20)
1x Arid Mesa
4x Flooded Strand
6x Island
3x Plains
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Tundra

Sideboard
1x Containment Priest
2x Council's Judgment
3x Disenchant
1x Entreat the Angels
1x Pithing Needle
1x Search for Azcanta
1x Spell Pierce
1x Supreme Verdict
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Vendilion Clique


I've also considered going up on 1 mana interaction such as Path to Exile or Spell Pierce and running the 4th Snapcaster Mage.

Any thoughts or advice on the main deck/side board?

Thanks a bunch!
:laugh:

With lots of burn and control mirrors i think CB is good. I think you may need a few more white grind cards to have a chance versus the red control decks. Turn 2 CB can take you there but generally redblasts own all your CA cards. I like entreat of the board as it's hard to deal with. However into plays into their flusterstorm post board. Maybe you can afford to run Gideon as well? It dodges both red blast and fluster.

[alphastryk]

Luke had only 5 islands, not 6. The decklist was wrong

Now thats interesting - and makes that decklist make more sense. Any way to get WotC to actually correct the coverage?

[twndomn]

What were his thoughts on Soothsaying in other MUs?

I'm interested with the idea of playing it but also skeptical, it seems too slow verse Grixis Delver and poor verse G/Bx decks, or am I under valuing the card?

He's on this forum, you can just PM him, why go thru me? Long story short, he's favoring Soothsaying over Search. He just likes the interaction of Soothsaying + CB a lot. You're right, other than lucky blind flips, it's most likely too slow against Grixis Delver opponent, the value of running this is more evident against Czech pile.

[Zllig]

Got 2nd in a decent sized 6 round tournament to win a Moat. First place was a Mox Emerald, so I was a little bummed. Moat is nice because I'll actually play with it at some point. Here is the list, might do a report if I'm bored in the future.

// 61 Maindeck
// 6 Creature
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Monastery Mentor

// 21 Instant
4 Predict
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
4 Force of Will

// 20 Land
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
2 Field of Ruin
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
5 Island
3 Plains
1 Arid Mesa

// 3 Planeswalker
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// 11 Sorcery
4 Ponder
3 Portent
3 Terminus
1 Council's Judgment


// 15 Sideboard
// 1 Artifact
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives

// 4 Creature
SB: 3 Meddling Mage
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique

// 1 Enchantment
SB: 1 Blood Moon

// 6 Instant
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Abrade
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction

// 1 Land
SB: 1 Mountain

// 2 Sorcery
SB: 2 Supreme Verdict

[sagagx]

Hi everyone,

I was attending a 90 people tournament this weekend, playing for the first time this deck.

My list:

1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
5 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Search for Azcanta
4 Brainstorm
1 Council's Judgment
1 Counterspell
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Ponder
3 Portent
2 Predict
1 Preordain
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Supreme Verdict
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus

SB:
2 Back to Basics
1 Celestial Purge
2 Disenchant
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Sudden Shock
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique

Below the report of my matches:

1) Grixis Delver
1-2- He don't play well so he is hitting Terminus and other removal spells too easily
1-0

2) Infect
1- Lack of removal and loss counter war against nexus strategy. All other creatures are not a problem but I loose to nexus.
2- Sudden shock is key against Nexus and other creatures.
3- Nexus*3 on his side, lack of counter to protect my swords from multiple vine and his fow. No sideboard cards hit and I made mistakes when sideboarding (should enter +1 clique and +1 pyro)
1-1

3) Lands
1- He is going to 4 life after a great game, I Jace a marit lage (force him to do it in my main phase) but multiple maze prevent me from killing him. Lack b2b maindeck and CB don't work to counter multiple loam and he kill me with molten. I failed to find my removals (council and explo) in time.
2- He is too slow once I surgical Loam, I kill with entreat.
3- Not many time left, I have to hurry, surgical loam again and going for a quick entreat despite his maze, was close from a draw because of multiple maze next turn.
2-1

4) Lands
1- Too quick for me, T1 mox Loam, CB always fails to counter loam even with brainstorm, lack b2b maindeck
2- Same start for him almost, T1 exploration, I fow, T2 loam and he find quickly a mox. I don't have my sideboard cards (disenchant*2, surgical*2, b2b*2) nor explosive and after too many turns I finally put in play b2b but he have a forest and a mox. He ghost quarter my plains and kill me with tracker and molten. I can't find a Sword neither despite many many cantrips.
2-2

5) Grixis Delver
1- Too quick for me, and he manage to counter my Terminus, I can't counter back.
2- He counter again my Terminus but I waited him with Verdict this time after and it's the game.
3- He plays more slowly this time, in play he was left with a pyromancer, making a significant number of tokens (4). I am still high in life at 11. I assemble Jace and Entreat with him having 3 cards in hand the first turn of Turns. I created 3 angels because I was thinking he may have a Fow and a Pierce in hand, so I keep 2 mana open to counter back. In fact no counter and he plays a gurmag, a shaman and another pyro on his turn. He is at 16 and attack me with pyro and tokens putting me at 8. Turn 3 now, I draw Terminus so I am wondering if I play a draw because he have many damage on the table. I evaluate the damage, it should be fine but very close. I attack with 1 angel, and cast gideon after Brainstorm with Jace (was searching for a sword it may be a mistake according to spectators, I should have bounce back the Gurmag). I make a 2/2. He activate shaman eot and on his last turn attack with everything putting me at 3 after blocks, activate shaman I am on 1. My last turn I attack with the 3 angels making the 12 damage.
3-2

6) BUG Nemesis
1- Terminus and Jace are very strong
2- Terminus, more verdicts, pyro and Jace are very strong
I don't really fear HTT, with predict I can recover pretty quickly, this card is key against HTT strategies.
4-2

7) 4c control
1- He beat me down with 2 baleful strix, I explosives them but I am low on life at 10. He manage to make great CA with kolaghan and bringing baleful back, despite me countering the first, he is doing same thing next turn. After he kill my Jace with snap and kolaghan.
2- More counters help, but he is also playing pyroblast so my Jace don't resolve neither. CB are useless, hitting his decays. I manage to finally put a Jace and assemble entreat a few turns later after him double fow my Gideon.
3- only 5 minutes left, draw.
4-1-2

For a first time it was not that bad, but I feel weird about CB. Was good against Grixis but it seems not that mandatory. Some opponent spells I countered with CB was not very relevant to the game.
Gideon was not good enough, I can't protect him, even against 4c control and strix/bolt/kolaghan.
Search is too many times irrelevant, hitting decay most of the time or being useless against many matchups. I feel like I can win without it, even if I really enjoy to play it.
I miss Back to Basics maindeck for Lands. I feel like it's quiet hard to win against loam and ghost quarter strategy without it.

I will try next time to not play CB, play more counters instead (counterspell, fluster) and to also play Mentors instead of Gideon. Also brings maindeck B2B instead of Search, going down to 2 Tundra.

What do you think ?

[Kyuuri117]

Was reading the dragon stompy thread and apparently new karn shits all over miracles if it resolves. Frankly, I don't really have much trouble believing this, as it seems to work similarly to Nissa Vital Force. I'm expecting to see this show in in MUD as a probable 4 of (in a matchup that was already pretty poor) as well as potentially in Eldrazi. We have any plan to deal with it besides not letting it resolve / additional copies of council's judgment?

[Whitefaces]

Was reading the dragon stompy thread and apparently new karn shits all over miracles if it resolves. Frankly, I don't really have much trouble believing this, as it seems to work similarly to Nissa Vital Force. I'm expecting to see this show in in MUD as a probable 4 of (in a matchup that was already pretty poor) as well as potentially in Eldrazi. We have any plan to deal with it besides not letting it resolve / additional copies of council's judgment?

I've just read the thread too, they just said it was good vs Miracles once? I don't see the 'shits all over if it resolves'. Karn is a strong card, I expect it to be played a bit in Legacy, but I don't really see it as being any more threatening than Chandra so if they're cutting her for Karns I'm happy. Countermagic, Council's Judgment (2) and Mentor (3) are my answers to planeswalkers.

[Kyle]

Off the current topic of how to beat Dragon Stompy:

Has anyone tried From the Ashes in place of Back to Basics or Blood Moon? Seems good against the current greedy manabases, albeit possibly narrow. Its also expensive to cast.

[Ceralyst]

I'm curious if anyone has tried using Teferi, Hero of Dominaria in any lists? I am optimistic that he could be a 1 or 2 of in some lists. Perhaps running him with more straight counterspells to better utilize his plus ability, or predicts, since his minus ability seems to jive nicely with the predict miracles build. He also has a game ending ultimate. Thoughts?

[FavoredRevenant]

Hi, all. I'm looking at taking the following list to SCG Atlanta this weekend for the classic and the side events. Is there anything egregiously wrong with the list, or anything I haven't taken into consideration?

MAIN:
Creatures:
3 Snapcaster Mage

Spells:
4 Brainstorm
1 Flusterstorm
4 Ponder
4 Portent
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Counterbalance
2 Predict
1 Search for Azcanta
2 Back to Basics
1 Council's Judgment
1 Entreat the Angels
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
4 Terminus

Lands:
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
6 Island
3 Plains
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island

SIDE:
1 Snapcaster Mage
3 Flusterstorm
2 Path to Exile
3 Pyroblast
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Disenchant
1 Supreme Verdict

Some notes: I notice most lists are running a 2-2 split between Tundras and Volcanics. I'm on a 2-1 split pretty much entirely because I don't have a second Volcanic. Is it even worth the side splash for the Blast effects if I only have one (hard to protect) red source? I've geared my sideboard to be generically good against a wide variety of decks, as I'm sure I'll be playing against a lot of different decks at the event. I followed the advice of some more experienced players and shifted the last Snapcaster to the side, as they gain more value in games 2 and 3 once you've configured your interaction to suit the opponent's deck. Between the full 4 Terminus and StP, my removal suite in the main is pretty tight. I included the Verdict in the side for grindy creature matchups. I also included 2x Path to Exile for the same reason, but I'm not sure that's the best use of those slots. I've considered putting 2 Mentors there so I can bring in different threats in matchups that require it. I'd like to hear other players' thoughts on that.

[phg22]

Part of what makes Jace so good is that having him around multiple turns makes it so difficult to lose. He just puts you so much farther ahead if you 0 him twice then he gets blasted compared to plussing Teferi (or any other walker) twice before it dies. Basically, any non JTMS walker needs to do something other than gain straight card advantage (ie: Gideon, AoZ) or not be blue (Chandra, ToD, who our mana cannot support).

[Star|Scream]

No posts in about a week? Might as well suggest some Jank:

Psychic Possession


For grindy matchups. Also sets up miracles every turn and keeps ponder live against a Leovold. Yes it's terrible, but I got nothing else going on!

[twndomn]

Off the current topic of how to beat Dragon Stompy:

Has anyone tried From the Ashes in place of Back to Basics or Blood Moon? Seems good against the current greedy manabases, albeit possibly narrow. Its also expensive to cast.

Why is it greedy/narrow? Back to Basic basically says you cannot commit to running Karakas and/or Search. FtA can actually convert a Karakas/Serarch into a basic land. Let's say B2B or FtA gets countered on stack, Snapcaster can actually flashback FtA, which is another perk. B2B requires opponent's tapping and sometimes an active DRS would allow Grixis deck to squeeze out. Instead of MD B2B, one ought to try MD FtA, your Lands opponent probably won't see it coming.

[Minniehajj]

No posts in about a week? Might as well suggest some Jank:

Psychic Possession


For grindy matchups. Also sets up miracles every turn and keeps ponder live against a Leovold. Yes it's terrible, but I got nothing else going on!

Most of our discussion has shifted away from this place to our Discord. If you'd like to join, feel free to click this link below!
https://discord.gg/hVhkvEW

[Kendawg]

Have been feeling underwhelmed by V-Clique. While impactful in grindy control mirrors, and can deal with planewalkers, and can speed up a clock vs storm or Sneak and show, It rarely plays out this way. Its horrible vs the control decks playing Strix, It doesn't create a clock like monastery mentor does, and I'm really tempted to make the 2nd Clique I have in the board a 4th snapcaster mage. Thoughts?

Also that discord link is dead.

[Whitefaces]

Have been feeling underwhelmed by V-Clique. While impactful in grindy control mirrors, and can deal with planewalkers, and can speed up a clock vs storm or Sneak and show, It rarely plays out this way. Its horrible vs the control decks playing Strix, It doesn't create a clock like monastery mentor does, and I'm really tempted to make the 2nd Clique I have in the board a 4th snapcaster mage. Thoughts?

Also that discord link is dead.

I mostly agree, Clique is a fine card but rarely seems to pull its weight these days. I'm playing three Mentor in the board, the third was a Clique sometimes.

Here's another invite, shouldn't expire - https://discord.gg/sHGrP5F

[ParisFlorian]

I am currently on a Entreat build, with 3 Mentors SB.
I run 2 copies of Entreat MD. Are you happy with just one ? Personnally I had sometimes some troubles to close games with a single one.

Florian

[twndomn]

Have been feeling underwhelmed by V-Clique. While impactful in grindy control mirrors, and can deal with planewalkers, and can speed up a clock vs storm or Sneak and show, It rarely plays out this way. Its horrible vs the control decks playing Strix, It doesn't create a clock like monastery mentor does, and I'm really tempted to make the 2nd Clique I have in the board a 4th snapcaster mage. Thoughts?

Also that discord link is dead.

The problem you described is real. However, there're couple things to note: 4-color control with Strix is one MU. Clique is a versatile SB card, people usually don't want to focus that much on a single MU. Just because they run Strix does't mean they'll have it untapped when you flash Clique-in EOT to go after their Planeswalker.

Another thing is the function of Clique vs Snapcaster. They fundamentally serve different purpose. Going back to 4-color control, this is a MU about CA and multiple angles of attack. I get your frustration, just don't think this 1-card swap would give you the edge in this MU.

Long story short, Clique is still effective and disruptive against combo decks.

[Kyle]

Anyone put up any results (good or bad) testing Ancestral Visions?

[CutthroatCasual]

Do we start packing Stony Silence for Steel Stompy?

[phg22]

I think I'd rather go to a card like By Force that also serves as a chalice answer. Though Stony Silence / Null Rod might make sense in UW or if you're looking for a card against storm as well.

[Poron]

Haha and here is my prophecy of Null Rod in Miracle :laugh:

Anyway, 100% of Eldrazi’s and Steel Stompy’s lands are non basic. Back to Basics and a well timed Terminus should do it

[Whitefaces]

Haha and here is my prophecy of Null Rod in Miracle :laugh:

Return of the King!

[CutthroatCasual]

Return of the King!

Everybody is coming back.

Oh look one of my comments is in your sig!

[Poron]

Aura of Silence and Serenity.. for white players MUD has never been a problem

[Secretly.A.Bee]

If you had access to a Moat, would it be something you would probably utilize in the sideboard, or would it not make the cut?

[Zllig]

If you had access to a Moat, would it be something you would probably utilize in the sideboard, or would it not make the cut?

Moat is great and you should never pass up a chance to play it, but attacking with Mentors > Moat sadly.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

So in the board alongside a couple clique with options such as 1-2 Entreat and Baneslayer Angel?

[ParisFlorian]

If you had access to a Moat, would it be something you would probably utilize in the sideboard, or would it not make the cut?

As I often face Eldrazis, and since I am on an Entreat build, I run 1 Moat in SB. In other situations, I guess there are better choices for this slot (eg Humility, PTE...)
If you also run Blood moon / B2B in your SB, beware of the WW in the cost (be sure to play 3 or 4 basic plains)

Florian

[Whitefaces]

Unless your local meta has lots of stuff like Eldrazi, Elves, Goblins etc I wouldn't bother with Moat. The main decks are Delver (Delver, DRS), Pile (DRS, Strix, Jace), Miracles (Jace, Entreat) etc, it's too situational and expensive.

It's cheap online and almost nobody plays it there either, it's not a cost reason that it's not played much.

[Poron]

100% of the mentioned treaths die to Kozilek’s Return and/or REB

[CutthroatCasual]

If you had access to a Moat, would it be something you would probably utilize in the sideboard, or would it not make the cut?

I used to play Moat in pre-ban. Loved the card, it never “won” me games but it would give me more than enough time to stabilize.

These days since I’m playing only 1 ETA, I don’t run the Moat anymore.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Ok, thanks for the information. I appreciate you sharing your experience with it.

[Captain Hammer]

Is Teferi, Hero of Dominaria a better Jace?

It costs one more mana, but it’s absolutes are much more potent overall.

[Moctzal]

Is Teferi, Hero of Dominaria a better Jace?

It costs one more mana, but it’s absolutes are much more potent overall.

Not being able to put a Terminus from your hand on top of your deck seems like a pretty big strike against Teferi compared to Jace.

[Poron]

It’s a permanent which costs 5 and dies to REB.

The best mechanic for this deck is:
1) survive early game
2) land a threath (Clique, Mentor, Gideon, Jace)
3) Terminus the table and win from there.

Point 2 and 3 can be inverted.

Card advantage is just a mean to get a Gideon on an empty board.
That’s where your train leaves

[dnt4lyfe]

what do miracle players bring pyroblast in against just curious?

[FGCmtg]

what do miracle players bring pyroblast in against just curious?

Blue decks?

I'm playing three volcs currently, so that I can feel comfortable bringing in blasts vs wasteland decks like Delver and BUG Leo.

[Poron]

Jace and Leovold

So principally mirror match and Czech Pile matchup.

[Dzra]

Everybody is coming back.

Hay guyz, I am back.

I recently sleeved up a 19 land, 4 BS, 4 Ponder, 4 Portent, 2 Predict list. Sometimes the mana has felt sketchy, but it's really been surprisingly solid. I could convince myself to cut a Portent for the 20th land.

My first run last week, I tried out 2 Pyroclasms in the SB, but I'm thinking about probably cutting them since I only play 2 Volcanics in this build and fetching Volcanic early against Wasteland decks feels terrible. I'm really not so sure that I even want or need REB against Delver right now. The Miracles maindeck is so strong vs Grixis Delver that I'd rather just cut the 4 FoW for a couple Flusterstorms, another Verdict, and maybe a Path (or Moat??) then call it a day.

I'm not currently running any CB in the 75, but I haven't hit any Storm players at the locals yet either, so I'm not sure if this will be a problem or not.

Anyways, just saying hi, I've been out of mtg for a while. Maybe I'll check into the discord, it's cool to see some familiar people still posting here, haha. :D

[Minniehajj]

Hay guyz, I am back.

I recently sleeved up a 19 land, 4 BS, 4 Ponder, 4 Portent, 2 Predict list. Sometimes the mana has felt sketchy, but it's really been surprisingly solid. I could convince myself to cut a Portent for the 20th land.

My first run last week, I tried out 2 Pyroclasms in the SB, but I'm thinking about probably cutting them since I only play 2 Volcanics in this build and fetching Volcanic early against Wasteland decks feels terrible. I'm really not so sure that I even want or need REB against Delver right now. The Miracles maindeck is so strong vs Grixis Delver that I'd rather just cut the 4 FoW for a couple Flusterstorms, another Verdict, and maybe a Path (or Moat??) then call it a day.

I'm not currently running any CB in the 75, but I haven't hit any Storm players at the locals yet either, so I'm not sure if this will be a problem or not.

Anyways, just saying hi, I've been out of mtg for a while. Maybe I'll check into the discord, it's cool to see some familiar people still posting here, haha. :D

Welcome, glad to see you're back! The discord is where we hold our primary discussions these days. Feel free to join us there and chat away!

[Sibelius]

An article on some new Miracles tech from Italy.

Well written with good logical conclusions!

https://thelibraryatpendrellvale.com/seize-a-miracle-by-angelo-cadei-and-marco-aquila/

Hope you enjoy it

Sib

[ParisFlorian]

This idea to play 3 Thoughtseize in the SB is weird.
First, I am quite confident with the traditionnal answers (Flusterstorm, Surgical extraction...) to fight combo.
Second, just do the maths : 7 blue fetches + 1 single Underground Sea + 3 TS = only 20% chance to be able to cast the TS on T1.

The only real merit I could see is that it gives Engineered explosives the ability to remove 4 mana permanents (Jace, Chandra, Karn, etc)

[Poron]

Black stopped to have sense with Council’s Judgment

In my opinion if they will ban Deathrite Shaman we’re going major back again. Reanimator will surge and we will have a very easy matchup with S Extraction and Containment Priest.Rebs are going to surge for Miracle and Czech Pile

Our win cons must be white

[Echinoderm]

Black stopped to have sense with Council’s Judgment

In my opinion if they will ban Deathrite Shaman we’re going major back again. Reanimator will surge and we will have a very easy matchup with S Extraction and Containment Priest.Rebs are going to surge for Miracle and Czech Pile

Our win cons must be white

Will there be any Czech Pile without Deathrite? Hard to imagine that deck functioning without the mana fixing. More like BUG maybe and B/Gx?

[Poron]

Good call, but Leovold will keep on being played in a more SFMish built

[Dzra]

I don't think Deathrite needs to be banned, but anyways... We used to discuss Black splash a whole, whole lot back in the day. I was never much impressed with it then and I don't see myself getting too excited about it now. Are combo MUs really such a problem now?

[Maelstrom]

Hi

Upcomming miracles player here :) I have some questions that I hope some of you will answer.

Firstly can someone explain the pro and cons on running Entreat the Angels vs. Mentor vs. Gideon, Ally of Zendikar?

Also how hard is it to run Blood Moon instead of Back to Basics? I was wondering if I put in one more basic plains (from 2 to 3) running bloodmon and still being able to cast Entreat and/or gideon wouldnt be a big issue?

Best regards

For reference I am wanna do something like this:

Lands (20):
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
3 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island

Creatures(3):
3 Snapcaster Mage

Spells(29):
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Portent
2 Predict
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Council's Judgment
2 Counterspell
1 Entreat the Angels
3 Terminus
1 Supreme Verdict

Other(8):
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Counterbalance
2 Search for Azcanta

Sideboard(15):
2 Blood Moon
2 Containment Priest
2 Flusterstorm
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Rest in Peace
2 Wear // Tear (would you just play disenchant here?)
1 Vendilion Clique

[twndomn]

Hi

Upcomming miracles player here :) I have some questions that I hope some of you will answer.

Firstly can someone explain the pro and cons on running Entreat the Angels vs. Mentor vs. Gideon, Ally of Zendikar?

Also how hard is it to run Blood Moon instead of Back to Basics? I was wondering if I put in one more basic plains (from 2 to 3) running bloodmon and still being able to cast Entreat and/or gideon wouldnt be a big issue?



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