[Deck] Czech Pile

[DemolitionColorScheme]

I mained Liliana, the Last Hope at a tournament 2 weeks ago. I've been meaning to write a report but haven't gotten around to it yet. She was helpful when killing Lingering Souls Tokens and keeping a Mystic from connecting with a Jitte while I was battling an Esper Stoneblade player. Other than that she didn't see much action. Her 3 mana cost can be prohibitive when dealing with Tax decks and she is a little slow when dealing with delver players. I don't think I'll main her anymore but she could be worth keeping in the SB.
I see. Her being on the slow side is definitely a thing. Hence why I didn't board her in at all. I should definitely give her more playtime, though. I was thinking of that slot being Vendilion Clique, but I'm not ready to dismiss her just yet.

[Misersoneof]

Hello everyone!

I said I would post this report and here it finally is. It’s been a while since was able to play magic but two weekends ago I went to a 50 person tournament at Hareruya in Oska with Pile. I went 4-2 and took 13th place overall. This was probably my best finish to date and having come after a long hiatus I thought it would be worth posting.

For reference my list was:

https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/czech-pile-4-color-control/

R1: 12 Post

Game 1 I lose the die roll and keep a decent seven. He opens with turn 1 needle on wasteland and I have him pegged on post. I hymn him and dig for threats and discard. After a slow grind I get there with a leovold and snapcaster.

OUT: 1 Liliana, 1 Toxic Deluge, 2 Push, 2 bolt
IN: 1 Thoughtseize, 1 K Command, 2 Flusterstorm, 2 Edict

Game 2 I lose to mana screw. I did not draw a third land and was unable to stop his turn 5 Ugin.

Game 3 I cast hymn, hymn, snap, hymn and then drop Jace to keep him from drawing anything. Beats won the game.

Afterwards I told him how a buddy of mine loved 12 post and how I used to get my ass kicked while playing miracles. He mentioned how he lamented the top ban. Later on he played my buddy who hymned him to death as well.

Record 1-0

R2: Mono Red Stompy (I HATE this deck)

Game 1 I win the roll and keep a hand with 2 deathrites. I proceed to draw a 3rd and put them all into play. He bloodmoons and chalices and I use the hidden mode of attacking with my three squires. I get him down to a low life total but he drops an ensnaring bridge. The next turn I topdeck a bolt. I proceed to cast it and he says ok and adjusts his life total before realizing that there is a chalice on 1. He then tries to walk it back but I note how he already marked it on his life total. I then used the shamans to make black and drain him for his last 2 life.

I didn’t see any sneak attacks so I board to take their early pieces and grind.

OUT: 1 Liliana, 2 Jace, 1 Edict, 2 Push
IN: 1 Hydroblast, 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Sylvan library, 1 K Command, 1 Thoughtseize

Game 2 I keep a shaky six and forget to scry. I notice my mistake but he says it is too late because I said ‘go’. (I guess he got revenge for the chalice) He drops a blood moon and I Blue Blast it but he has a ricochet trap and I am stuck with only red mana. I manage to force his Rabblemaster but after a few more drawsteps with no activity I scoop to save time for a game 3. Also with the rabblemaster I board my pushes back in taking out Thoughtseize and Library.

Game 3 I keep a seven with force in it but he has ricochet trap again and he locks the game up.

After we are done my opponent’s friend who was watching the match said that he thought I had a deathrite in my hand at the end of game two and that I should have played it. I think he was mistaken but I cannot be sure. I think I had a basic swamp out but right now I can’t remember. This matchup always gets me and I hate having to deal with it. There’s a guy at my LGS who brings it to every Legacy Night and it has beaten me so many times. Maybe I should mulligan more aggressively or something.

Record 1-1

R3: Esper Stoneblade

Game 1 I am on the draw and we slug it out back and forth. K command destroys his Jitte and Leovold locks his cantrips. I win with 9 life left.

Out: 1 Abrupt Decay, 1 Edict, 4 FOW, 1 Thoughtseize
In: 1 Sylvan Library, 2 Flusterstorm, 1 REB, 2 Pyroblast, 1 K Command

Game 2 and we go back and forth between deploying threats and eliminating them. He eventually plays stoneforge and I play a Liliana of the last hope. He gets his jitte into play but I give his stoneforge -2 so she cannot deal combat damage. He plays a lingering souls but I kill one with liliana and push the one he equips. Eventually I blow up the jitte and batterskull and kill him with Leo and deathrite.

Record 2-1

R4: Lands

My buddy and I were talking before the tournament about how much of a slow miserable matchup Lands can be. Sure enough I sit down from the friend of the Mono Red Stompy opponent. I mentioned how he had me at a disadvantage because he knew my deck but I didn’t know his. He replied that he thought he was favored.

Game 1 I lose the die roll and he T1 drops a Molten Vortex. I keep my deathrite in my hand ponder for my 1 of abrupt decay. He proceeds to drop an Exploration and gambles for life from the loam. Before long he is ghost quartering me out of the game and any creatures are blasted by Vortex. I manage to find the Decay but it is already too late and he has Pfire and I have no mana.

OUT: 2 Jace, 1 Liliana, 2 Push, 2 hymn, 1 Thoughtseize, 1 Deluge
IN: 2 Edict, 3 Surgical, 1 Hydroblast, 1 Sylvan Library, 2 Flusterstorm

Game 2 I keep seven because I have 3 ponders to look for surgical. I eventually find sylvan library and use it to dig as much as possible. While my opponent uses his loam to find the combo. Despite my Sylvan and multiple ponders I couldn’t find a surgical. I was able to get a deathrite on the table but after I exiled 1 loam he found another. I don’t remember how I died but I probably had no lands left.

Record 2-2

R5: Mono B Pox

According to my friends this guy is a legend. He has played the same foiled out mono black deck forever and always shows up in all black leather with a big leather bound suitcase. This was my first interaction with him.

Game 1 and I am on the draw. He goes thoughseize into hymn into pox while I hymn him back. By the 5th turn he is in complete control and I have no cards left. He drops a Chains of Mephistopheles and I scoop.

OUT: 4 FOW, 1 Edict
IN: 1 K Command, 1 Thoughtseize, 2 Flusterstorm

Game 2 and I start by thoughtseizing him and taking his Hymn. I follow it up with my own and get as aggressive as I can dropping 2 Striges and a Leovold. I use my K commands to get him to discard during upkeeps. Eventually he gets a bitterblossom in play and I use leovold as an abyss forcing him to block every turn to maintain life. He drops an Ob Nixilis The Fallen. I next play defense but eventually top deck bolts and snapcasters to kill him.

OUT: 1 Abrupt Decay
IN: 1 Marsh Casualties

Game 3 is pretty much like Game 2 but change Ob Nixilis with Necropolis Fiend and you have a good idea of the board. I do my best burn deck impression, marsh casualties his bitterblossom tokens and permit his black enchantment to kill him on his upkeep.

Record 3-2

Round 6: UR Delver

We shuffle up and I look at his sleeves which are the Unhinged Island art. I get the soul read and realize that he is on UR Delver.

I lose the die roll and he starts Game 1 with a basic island into ponder. I prioritize basics and play deathrite pass. He bolts my deathrite, sets a volcanic island and passes. I ponder to look for threats and keep a fetch up. He casts a TNN and I brainstorm to find a force. I cannot and his TNN takes me down with the help of Price of Progress.

OUT: 1 Abrupt Decay, 4 FOW, 2 Jace, 1 Thoughtseize
IN: 3 REBs, 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Edict, 1 Marsh Casualties, 1 Hydroblast

Game 2 I keep a 1 lander with ponder and brainstorm. I get my second land with my ponder but have trouble finding my 3rd land. I luck out and happen to see it on the 3rd card of my brainstorm of desperation. Meanwhile my opponent played a Search for Azcanta and a Young Pyromancer but was unable to get beyond 2 lands himself and I was able to kill his creatures and beat him down.

Game 3 I was more careful with my lands and made sure that his price of progress was a dead card. The game ended with him using it to kill himself.

After the match I showed him how I had multiple things for his TNN but he revealed that there was only one of them in the deck. Marsh Casualties however is great against Young Pyromancer decks.

Final Record 4-2

As I mentioned before, I'm not too convinced on the main liliana. She could have been useful against some of my matchups that I didn't see here in. (For example, the Mono Black Pox deck) but it seems most people are not running her anymore so maybe I'll continue to test with her.

As an additional side, I went to an LGS legacy 8 man the other night with a list that is very similar and the only deck I lost to was Eldrazi. I seem to keep having issues with chalice/moon stompy decks. Does anyone have any advice on how best to deal with them? I don't know if I should mull more aggressively to look for removal/FOW/sweepers etc.

[Misersoneof]

This first place list looks interesting:

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2018-01-21

Anyone have any experience playing with Bloodbraid Elf? It seems like it would awkward to cast it and cascade into Toxic Deluge. I also think the Pernicious Deed in the board looks interesting.

[NegatorITA]

This first place list looks interesting:

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2018-01-21

Anyone have any experience playing with Bloodbraid Elf? It seems like it would awkward to cast it and cascade into Toxic Deluge. I also think the Pernicious Deed in the board looks interesting.

maybe there are a way to defeat the mirror / miracle?
How does the deck do against the new miracle? It's been a lot I don't play and hearing the words "terminus" and "its back" make me shiver...

[velya]

maybe there are a way to defeat the mirror / miracle?
How does the deck do against the new miracle? It's been a lot I don't play and hearing the words "terminus" and "its back" make me shiver...

I have to say, I never felt like miracle is a bad match, I always looked forward to it. I have to say, the Search for Azcanta built is not that popular where I play/Miracle is not that popular anymore, but normally they could not cope with the value I drowned them in.

I start to shift Forces into the siteboard and play 4 Hymns main. I am not sure whether this makes the Miracles match that bad, since there is not much that really needs to be forced. I guess I would bring the forces back in after boarding, just to have some outs and remove some Strix/Creature removal. But honestly, Boarding has always been my weak spot :D

[NegatorITA]

I have to say, I never felt like miracle is a bad match, I always looked forward to it. I have to say, the Search for Azcanta built is not that popular where I play/Miracle is not that popular anymore, but normally they could not cope with the value I drowned them in.

I start to shift Forces into the siteboard and play 4 Hymns main. I am not sure whether this makes the Miracles match that bad, since there is not much that really needs to be forced. I guess I would bring the forces back in after boarding, just to have some outs and remove some Strix/Creature removal. But honestly, Boarding has always been my weak spot :D

if they stick jace + azcanta there isn't much you can do to stop them, that's when I was playing Bug Control (the variation of czech pile without red) and I had trouble dealing with gideon, that then lend to that spot in which while I was busy handling him, I got azcantjaced.
now, the new list is different, they have CB and no more gideon, the don't even have mentor main deck... unsure to be honest, here in italy miracle is the "best" deck since it was born here, so, I'll let you know once I can go and play more, maybe, even this evening.
It's very player dependant though, because the deck is very skill intensive.

[RankaLee]

Hey Guys I Just picked up piles after taking a break when Top got ban sad day for miracles but got bored of miracles after 2-3 years so Ive decided to give Piles a Try.
How Do you guys play Vs Elves they seem to be so resilient even after fork bolt snap fork bolt i ended up losing and get drew into visionary and symb I always feel like I run out of gas.
My list is pretty similar to Thomas Mars list cept I go 3 hymn 3 TS/Iok. SB almost the same aswell minus the Goyf
Also Lands also feels like a really bad MU But for the new Miracles I feel like I just need to hold up FOW for their entreat or Jace since we have more threats
I think Over all im like 2/8 wins vs Elves Thanks!!!

[Misersoneof]

Hey Guys I Just picked up piles after taking a break when Top got ban sad day for miracles but got bored of miracles after 2-3 years so Ive decided to give Piles a Try.
How Do you guys play Vs Elves they seem to be so resilient even after fork bolt snap fork bolt i ended up losing and get drew into visionary and symb I always feel like I run out of gas.
My list is pretty similar to Thomas Mars list cept I go 3 hymn 3 TS/Iok. SB almost the same aswell minus the Goyf
Also Lands also feels like a really bad MU But for the new Miracles I feel like I just need to hold up FOW for their entreat or Jace since we have more threats
I think Over all im like 2/8 wins vs Elves Thanks!!!

Lands and Eves can be miserable match-ups for any fair deck.

With elves you want to aggressively keep creature removal and Force for for their Glimpses and Natural Orders. Things like K Command and Jace are good for the late game (instant discard + kill a dude and late game dig) but you don't need them in the early game so shuffle them away with your brainstorms until you can be sure to use them and not die next turn to a NO off the top. Leovold can be brutal against them because they need to either draw cards to combo or swing in with 2/2s. When removing creatures, prioritize Visionary, Symbiote and Heritage Druid as those 3 are the most important to combo off. After they are gone you should then focus Nettle Sentinel and Deathrite as they will be the creatures that will beat you down/drain you late game.

Post board you should bring in your sweepers. Things like Marsh Casualties, Toxic Deluge (if it's not already in your main), Liliana the Last Hope and Jitte are all solid against Elves. I may be called crazy for saying this but I would board out Jace because while he can help shut the door if you are already ahead, he doesn't help you as much as a wrath effect.

Game 1 against lands is miserable. Force any early exploration or molten vortex because those cards will be brutal against you. Early thoughtseize can be good if you are able to get rid of their gambles, explorations, molten vortex or crop rotations. Hymns being random means you may end up making them discard lands that they can loam back so use it only if you think they don't have a loam or you have a deathrite ready to eat something. Sticking and protecting deathrites are a must as otherwise you will have no way of interacting with their graveyard. If you are able to make it to the mid or late game then jace can be your best friend but that won't happen very often.

When boarding bring in your Yard Hate, edicts, enchantment removal, hydroblast and maybe some flusterstorms. Take out your Hymns, K Commands and Fatal Pushes. If you don't run bolts then there can be an argument for leaving in the Pushes because Tireless Tracker is a thing but bolt answers him better and he is usually a 1-2 of. Surigical or Nihil Spellbomb away loams, Punishing Fires or Depths combo pieces. Be ready for a grindy game 2 and most likely a game 3.

[RankaLee]

Lands and Eves can be miserable match-ups for any fair deck.

With elves you want to aggressively keep creature removal and Force for for their Glimpses and Natural Orders. Things like K Command and Jace are good for the late game (instant discard + kill a dude and late game dig) but you don't need them in the early game so shuffle them away with your brainstorms until you can be sure to use them and not die next turn to a NO off the top. Leovold can be brutal against them because they need to either draw cards to combo or swing in with 2/2s. When removing creatures, prioritize Visionary, Symbiote and Heritage Druid as those 3 are the most important to combo off. After they are gone you should then focus Nettle Sentinel and Deathrite as they will be the creatures that will beat you down/drain you late game.

Post board you should bring in your sweepers. Things like Marsh Casualties, Toxic Deluge (if it's not already in your main), Liliana the Last Hope and Jitte are all solid against Elves. I may be called crazy for saying this but I would board out Jace because while he can help shut the door if you are already ahead, he doesn't help you as much as a wrath effect.

Game 1 against lands is miserable. Force any early exploration or molten vortex because those cards will be brutal against you. Early thoughtseize can be good if you are able to get rid of their gambles, explorations, molten vortex or crop rotations. Hymns being random means you may end up making them discard lands that they can loam back so use it only if you think they don't have a loam or you have a deathrite ready to eat something. Sticking and protecting deathrites are a must as otherwise you will have no way of interacting with their graveyard. If you are able to make it to the mid or late game then jace can be your best friend but that won't happen very often.

When boarding bring in your Yard Hate, edicts, enchantment removal, hydroblast and maybe some flusterstorms. Take out your Hymns, K Commands and Fatal Pushes. If you don't run bolts then there can be an argument for leaving in the Pushes because Tireless Tracker is a thing but bolt answers him better and he is usually a 1-2 of. Surigical or Nihil Spellbomb away loams, Punishing Fires or Depths combo pieces. Be ready for a grindy game 2 and most likely a game 3.

Awesome Thanks Alot will give that a try seems I may be killing the wrong things in Elves and for lands yea I think most game I never hit more than 2-3 lands ghost quarter and wasteland with loam feelsbadman lol

[Olaf Forkbeard]

Hi guys, I have an unusual question for ya.

What do I do as a goblins player that scares you, if anything?

Obviously SB Blood Moon is a good card.
Being threat dense is great (Multiple Siege-Gang Commanders).
Making DRS inert is the strongest thing I can do that I've found (Relic etc).

Basically, what do you struggle with, both with, and ignoring my deck? I was hoping for some more insight. Knowledge is power an' all.

[Misersoneof]

Hi guys, I have an unusual question for ya.

What do I do as a goblins player that scares you, if anything?

Obviously SB Blood Moon is a good card.
Being threat dense is great (Multiple Siege-Gang Commanders).
Making DRS inert is the strongest thing I can do that I've found (Relic etc).

Basically, what do you struggle with, both with, and ignoring my deck? I was hoping for some more insight. Knowledge is power an' all.

I've never played pile against goblins so I can't draw from direct experience but it does have trouble with lightning fast aggro. Main we only run 0-1 sweepers and post SB we have 2-3. This can mean that a fast aggro hand + a so-so keep on our part could mean a win for you. Our strategy will come down to removing your creatures as fast as you play them while searching for sweepers. If you can play them faster then you win.

Cards like Ringleader (reload your hand), Krenko Mob Boss and Rabblemaster (Army in a can) would be stuff that we don't want to see from you. If you play Rishidan Port then that also would slow us down long enough for you to get there. Sharpshooter would also be a pain since a lot of our creatures are x/1 and our striges are a main part of preserving life total.

Effects like blood moon would definitely hurt us but we wouldn't necessarily scoop to it. We run 2 basics and have deathrite shaman for mana. Some Pile lists have been running moon too. Honestly your main game plan seems good enough.

Does anyone else have direct experience?

[Olaf Forkbeard]

I've never played pile against goblins so I can't draw from direct experience but it does have trouble with lightning fast aggro. Main we only run 0-1 sweepers and post SB we have 2-3. This can mean that a fast aggro hand + a so-so keep on our part could mean a win for you. Our strategy will come down to removing your creatures as fast as you play them while searching for sweepers. If you can play them faster then you win.

Cards like Ringleader (reload your hand), Krenko Mob Boss and Rabblemaster (Army in a can) would be stuff that we don't want to see from you. If you play Rishidan Port then that also would slow us down long enough for you to get there. Sharpshooter would also be a pain since a lot of our creatures are x/1 and our striges are a main part of preserving life total.

Effects like blood moon would definitely hurt us but we wouldn't necessarily scoop to it. We run 2 basics and have deathrite shaman for mana. Some Pile lists have been running moon too. Honestly your main game plan seems good enough.

Does anyone else have direct experience?

Funny thing about that, and why I asked. Goblins is not an aggro deck, It's a mid range control deck. I can play aggro with a hand that supports it, but most hands are full town grind value, just like your deck.

[DemolitionColorScheme]

So, I know Burn is a godawful matchup and I've been playtesting with a friend of mine that's been playing Burn on and off for years now and is pretty decent at it. I rarely get to squeeze out a win, usually when I do it's due to a Jace fate-seal and digging for a counter backup in the mean time and barely winning on a Jace Ult. The matchup is SO lopsided, though and I'm aware of it, but Burn is a very real deck and would like to know if there are some angles I'm missing.

Here are some points I've found and would like to discuss:
- Deathrite Shaman is an all-known all star, but it never sticks. Good Burn players know that it's a high priority threat; not only due to the life gain, but also do to its ramping possibilities.
Is it correct to slam it ASAP and hope for the best or would it actually be correct to sandbag it for a bit? The latter seems rather futile due to Burn having so much redundancy.

- Keeping a hand full of cantrips feels way too slow.

- Price of Progress is a very real card and even though I / we usually run a single Island and a single Swamp, it does come at the price ... of well, literally progress, haha. Having DRS pretty much never stick makes this even worse.

- What would you guys say is the "best" way of approach regarding this matchup?

- Same goes towards SBing. I usually board like this:

[IN]
2 Flusterstorm
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hymn to Tourach (when on the play)

[OUT]
1 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1-2 Force of Will (when on the play 2 get boarded and 1 additional Hymn comes in | when on the draw 1 gets boarded)

Is this the wrong approach in regards to boarding?

[walked]

Anyone have any thoughts on this list?

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/922812#paper

Seems to pop up periodically, and I like the Planeswalker suite; but I feel like it might just not be good enough. Has anyone had a chance to run it themselves?

[pointicus]

So, I know Burn is a godawful matchup and I've been playtesting with a friend of mine that's been playing Burn on and off for years now and is pretty decent at it. I rarely get to squeeze out a win, usually when I do it's due to a Jace fate-seal and digging for a counter backup in the mean time and barely winning on a Jace Ult. The matchup is SO lopsided, though and I'm aware of it, but Burn is a very real deck and would like to know if there are some angles I'm missing.

Here are some points I've found and would like to discuss:
- Deathrite Shaman is an all-known all star, but it never sticks. Good Burn players know that it's a high priority threat; not only due to the life gain, but also do to its ramping possibilities.
Is it correct to slam it ASAP and hope for the best or would it actually be correct to sandbag it for a bit? The latter seems rather futile due to Burn having so much redundancy.

- Keeping a hand full of cantrips feels way too slow.

- Price of Progress is a very real card and even though I / we usually run a single Island and a single Swamp, it does come at the price ... of well, literally progress, haha. Having DRS pretty much never stick makes this even worse.

- What would you guys say is the "best" way of approach regarding this matchup?

- Same goes towards SBing. I usually board like this:

[IN]
2 Flusterstorm
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hymn to Tourach (when on the play)

[OUT]
1 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1-2 Force of Will (when on the play 2 get boarded and 1 additional Hymn comes in | when on the draw 1 gets boarded)

Is this the wrong approach in regards to boarding?

Typically boarding out FoW against burn isn't something I would do. Cards like PoP, Eidolon, Fireblast, GG on the play, or just even protecting a deathrite from a searing blaze are all things that should probably be forced. Burn typically has consistency issues and when you lose its usually with a cards in hand because they kill you quick so the card disadvantage on FoW isn't a thing in this match up.

[DemolitionColorScheme]

Typically boarding out FoW against burn isn't something I would do. Cards like PoP, Eidolon, Fireblast, GG on the play, or just even protecting a deathrite from a searing blaze are all things that should probably be forced. Burn typically has consistency issues and when you lose its usually with a cards in hand because they kill you quick so the card disadvantage on FoW isn't a thing in this match up.
Very good point! What would you normally board out, then?

[Stryfo]

Anyone have any thoughts on this list?

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/922812#paper

Seems to pop up periodically, and I like the Planeswalker suite; but I feel like it might just not be good enough. Has anyone had a chance to run it themselves?

Since that's my deck I will be a little biased for sure, but I think the deck is really strong. You have really strong fair deck matchups, and get extra points in some of the unfair matchups(lands, elves, depths, blood moon decks) while losing points in others (Storm, Sneak and Show, Post) (all relative to Czech).

I also think my deck is somewhat harder than standard builds of Czech to play because it's not always as obvious what the best way to manage your resources is.

If you're interested in some VoDs to see how the deck plays, you can check out my twitch channel, Twitch.tv/Stryfo. I stream the deck a lot, and (usually) do quite well with it.

[AsianGuy1137]

Since that's my deck I will be a little biased for sure, but I think the deck is really strong. You have really strong fair deck matchups, and get extra points in some of the unfair matchups(lands, elves, depths, blood moon decks) while losing points in others (Storm, Sneak and Show, Post) (all relative to Czech).

I also think my deck is somewhat harder than standard builds of Czech to play because it's not always as obvious what the best way to manage your resources is.

If you're interested in some VoDs to see how the deck plays, you can check out my twitch channel, Twitch.tv/Stryfo. I stream the deck a lot, and (usually) do quite well with it.

If you don't mind me asking, what makes this version stronger against Lands, Depths, and Moon decks while being weaker against Storm and SnS? Is it the addition of Dack Fayden for filtering?

[Stryfo]

I'll break it down deck by deck:

Lands: The strength comes from a bunch of small advantages on top of eachother.
First, Dack does a great job of filtering, as you acknowledge.
Second, Dack stealing mox diamonds is actually huge, you get to have a non-wastable rainbow source for the rest of the game.
Third, the planeswalkers I play are harder to p fire down and ult faster than Jace. Dack ultimate isn't game ending, but it buys a ton of time.
Fourth, I just play more ways of dealing with Marit Lage than most pile lists (rise//fall, Lili, Jace, edict in the main with an additional edict in the board).

Blood Moon Decks:
The ability to cast Dack off of a single basic and Chandra off of NO basics is huge, you get inevitability and card selection quickly and with minimal effort as far as fetching basics goes. (This also applies to SnS postboard, but having less discard is still a big disadvantage)

Depths: I just play more ways of dealing with Marit Lage, also dack emblem ends the game if you can get there.


SnS: Let me start by saying I don't think my SnS matchup is that bad, but I do play less discard and Leos, which is why I think I lose a few points relative to Czech.

Storm: Once again, I don't think my matchup is terrible here, but having less access to discard and Leo than Czech makes this a bit worse.

Hope this was clear, let me know if you have further questions or think any of my points are nonsense.

[pointicus]

Very good point! What would you normally board out, then?

It depends on your list and what you have in your SB, but usually Thoughtsiezes, toxic deluge, 1 JtMS, and volcanic ( which depends on what you have to bring in).

I would also always bring in all the hymns you have in the SB, card is the absolutely the thing you want to see in your opening hand.

[AsianGuy1137]

I'll break it down deck by deck:

Lands: The strength comes from a bunch of small advantages on top of eachother.
First, Dack does a great job of filtering, as you acknowledge.
Second, Dack stealing mox diamonds is actually huge, you get to have a non-wastable rainbow source for the rest of the game.
Third, the planeswalkers I play are harder to p fire down and ult faster than Jace. Dack ultimate isn't game ending, but it buys a ton of time.
Fourth, I just play more ways of dealing with Marit Lage than most pile lists (rise//fall, Lili, Jace, edict in the main with an additional edict in the board).

Blood Moon Decks:
The ability to cast Dack off of a single basic and Chandra off of NO basics is huge, you get inevitability and card selection quickly and with minimal effort as far as fetching basics goes. (This also applies to SnS postboard, but having less discard is still a big disadvantage)

Depths: I just play more ways of dealing with Marit Lage, also dack emblem ends the game if you can get there.


SnS: Let me start by saying I don't think my SnS matchup is that bad, but I do play less discard and Leos, which is why I think I lose a few points relative to Czech.

Storm: Once again, I don't think my matchup is terrible here, but having less access to discard and Leo than Czech makes this a bit worse.

Hope this was clear, let me know if you have further questions or think any of my points are nonsense.
This makes perfect sense. Thank you.

[DemolitionColorScheme]

It depends on your list and what you have in your SB, but usually Thoughtsiezes, toxic deluge, 1 JtMS, and volcanic ( which depends on what you have to bring in).

I would also always bring in all the hymns you have in the SB, card is the absolutely the thing you want to see in your opening hand.
I see. Thoughtseizes and Deluge going out and Hymns going in are a given. Shaving off a Jace is what I originally planned on doing, but I've never thought about boarding out a Volcanic! Does make sense in terms of PoP.

[Misersoneof]

I see. Thoughtseizes and Deluge going out and Hymns going in are a given. Shaving off a Jace is what I originally planned on doing, but I've never thought about boarding out a Volcanic! Does make sense in terms of PoP.

I agree with taking out TS, Jace, deluge and lands. Going down on lands can give you a higher density of spells to interact with burn. Volcanic is also the weakest land since we don't really need any of our red spells and would much rather have green for leovold or deathrite lifegain.

However, I don't know if I want to have all 4 forces in my deck against burn. Our deck is built on having answers to any threat and generating card advantage through 2 for 1s once we get to the late game. Forcing a T1 Goblin Guide or Eidelon seems to be an incredibly bad exchange. There are times in which it might be worth it but most of the time we should have a Push, Bolt or Decay to handle them. To me the only cards worth a force are Sulfuric Vortex, big Chandra and Fireblast. You need them for the late game finishers not their early threats. For this reason I like going down to 2. If you are forced to use them on T1 then you are probably not going to win that game anyway.

Going back to your point on "sticking a deathrite", the question I have to ask myself is, if I play a deathrite and he eats a burn spell am I unhappy with this exchange? As noted before, burn does have consistency issues and we want to play the long game. If in the early game he is merely, "(b) - you gain 3 life, target opponent loses a mana and discards a card" then I would still play it.

If you are able to get to the late game then you'll be able to get him back with K Command or find another one and by then your burn opponent should be desperately trying to topdeck.

[HardBrain]

After few time (over 2 month's) of testing and building my version - finally I got my list. Now I want to share it with you all and hear 5cent.

LANDS [20]:
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Wasteland
1 Bloodstained Mire

CREATURES [15]:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

INSTANTS [16]:
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Counterspell

SORCERIES [8]:
4 Preordain
2 Hymn To Tourach
2 Thoughtseize

PLANESWALKERS [2]:
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

SIDEBOARD [15]:
1 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
1 Life from the loam
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Dread of night
1 Sylvan Library
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Golgari Charm

I feel really safe against more of deck with this build. I cannot describe all decisions before your comment. after first fresh air from your side I will speak all strategy in my head. please don't be nice to me now. I Like true opinion.

[Misersoneof]

After few time (over 2 month's) of testing and building my version - finally I got my list. Now I want to share it with you all and hear 5cent.

LANDS [20]:
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Wasteland
1 Bloodstained Mire

CREATURES [15]:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

INSTANTS [16]:
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Counterspell

SORCERIES [8]:
4 Preordain
2 Hymn To Tourach
2 Thoughtseize

PLANESWALKERS [2]:
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

SIDEBOARD [15]:
1 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
1 Life from the loam
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Dread of night
1 Sylvan Library
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Golgari Charm

I feel really safe against more of deck with this build. I cannot describe all decisions before your comment. after first fresh air from your side I will speak all strategy in my head. please don't be nice to me now. I Like true opinion.

Boy, in a deck with 4 colors and so many options there are a lot of things to analyse. Let's see what you've done here...

You've cut some of the removal/discard (some lists run more Bolts, Edicts, Toxic Deluge or Inquisition) to add 2 True-named Nemesis. You've also adjusted your mana base by cutting two volcanic islands for 2 wastelands and changed 4 ponder into 4 preordain.

My initial reaction is that you've made the deck less able to deal with creature based strategies and added a way to beat down and race. Additionally, by changing the mana base, you have made it harder to cast spells because you've effectively turned 2 of your lands that tap for mana into spells. You've changed 4 Color Control into 4 Color Midrange.

To make things even harder on your manabase, you've changed 4 ponders (which give you the ability to look at 4 cards) into preordains which only sees 3 cards.

This list seems like it would have a much harder time with Delver, D&T, Elves and TES (if they go for goblins) and slightly shores up Miracles, other Pile lists and maybe Lands and Eldrazi.

What are your reasons for making these changes?

[ozimek]

(I posted this by mistake in the Miracles thread, so you may have seen the question before. )

Lately there has been a trend to play more Thoughtseize effects. Can someone give a reasoning for that? I guess the aim is to get both players into top decking mode more reliably? Is that a viable strategy against heavier decks with a higher density of late game bombs?

Has the metagame adjusted to be more resilient to Hymns?

[HardBrain]

Boy,

<3I wanted to discover new field for deck and spread options more and more.

LANDS [20]:
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Wasteland
1 Bloodstained Mire

Mana base is maybe strange for more of you. But after 2-3 months testing against decks like .Lands. I can tell that it works! Firstly we have acces to two core basic in this deck. Then still we have two wastelands which shine a lot. In some time we can ruin opponent manaPlan and against deck like ,Lands. we have perfect rest for Token. Against Eldrazi its a huge adv. there are a lot deck when we can crush their strategy just by landKilling. We have a lot of Deck Manipulation card so its no problem to find mana source. don't panic.

CREATURES [15]:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

2 Nemesis - yes, agains TWO NEMESIS. they are so broken that we cannot erase it from pool. It gives us best way to win with no danger. But describing TNN in Legacy is waste of time. It fits and im sure that he will stay in my Shaman-Strix etc Familly.

INSTANTS [16]:
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Counterspell

SORCERIES [8]:
4 Preordain - it can be dumb step for you guys but look: ponder sees 4 cards (3+1) but if you shuffle those 3 cards are still in drawOption. After Preordain we can peek a bit and decide. After scry to bottom we saw 3 cards (2+1) but we have 100% information that we will not draw those dead cards from bottom. Combine it with Brainstorm. We can BS and Send 2 dead cards down. its a step that you need to feel by your self before respons your opinion. I have spend a lot of games to admit it. ponder < preordain in this deck.
2 Hymn To Tourach
2 Thoughtseize

PLANESWALKERS [2]:
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

SIDEBOARD [15]:
1 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
1 Life from the loam - BROKEN! its sooooo good against WastelandDecks. especially shines vs D&T but still after SB we can crush opponent man abase by our Wasteland in mirror match. Still remember that we can dredge it and fulfill our grave.
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Dread of night
1 Sylvan Library
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Golgari Charm

//Ps.
If anyone else have something important to say/ask - please tell me - I will respons with full argument about my changes ;)

Br.

[Misersoneof]

I'm gonna try to go through these points one at a time.


<3I wanted to discover new field for deck and spread options more and more.

LANDS [20]:
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Wasteland
1 Bloodstained Mire

Mana base is maybe strange for more of you. But after 2-3 months testing against decks like .Lands. I can tell that it works! Firstly we have acces to two core basic in this deck. Then still we have two wastelands which shine a lot. In some time we can ruin opponent manaPlan and against deck like ,Lands. we have perfect rest for Token. Against Eldrazi its a huge adv. there are a lot deck when we can crush their strategy just by landKilling. We have a lot of Deck Manipulation card so its no problem to find mana source. don't panic.

I would like to know how and with whom you have tested. To me this seems like you should have gotten the opposite result. Do you have data to back up this claim?

While having Wasteland can be useful when dealing with the Marit Lage combo, lands has a multitude of ways of locking you out of mana with Ghost Quarter, Wasteland and Port. Whenever I have played against lands I have gotten choked on mana more times than I can count and the problem was always been them loaming back Ghost Quarter over and over. Many Lands players don't use Port anymore because GQ can destroy basics. I don't see how cutting color mana sources and bringing in Wastelands helps with this. Postboard you do have Life from the Loam but Lands can put multiple lands into play per turn or can destroy your two green sources. I don't think you can win that race if both you and your opponent are spending each turn returning lands from the graveyard.

Additionally, there are very few matchups in which I would want to run Wasteland. Delver can function on very few lands and if they are destroying ours with Wasteland or Stifle then we need color sources for removal. Miracles runs so many basics that Wastes don't matter. Against Eldrazi we can sometimes stick them with threats in hand, but that situation is very dependent on what they draw.

I just don't see any merit to this inclusion, but again, if you have data to back up your claims, please post it.




CREATURES [15]:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

2 Nemesis - yes, agains TWO NEMESIS. they are so broken that we cannot erase it from pool. It gives us best way to win with no danger. But describing TNN in Legacy is waste of time. It fits and im sure that he will stay in my Shaman-Strix etc Familly.



I have run TNN instead of Leovold before and I know he can be a house against some match-ups. What I find problematic is the fact that you are going up on 3 mana color intensive creatures while going down on blue sources. TNN can't do anything if you lack the mana to cast him.




SORCERIES [8]:
4 Preordain - it can be dumb step for you guys but look: ponder sees 4 cards (3+1) but if you shuffle those 3 cards are still in drawOption. After Preordain we can peek a bit and decide. After scry to bottom we saw 3 cards (2+1) but we have 100% information that we will not draw those dead cards from bottom. Combine it with Brainstorm. We can BS and Send 2 dead cards down. its a step that you need to feel by your self before respons your opinion. I have spend a lot of games to admit it. ponder < preordain in this deck.
2 Hymn To Tourach
2 Thoughtseize


This classic argument of Ponder vs. Preordain has been rehashed many times over in other threads. I don't want to get pulled into a debate but what it boils down to is, if you shuffle with a ponder, what is the percent that you will draw one of the cards you shuffled away. Most players agree that this chance is low enough that Ponder gets the nod but some disagree. For me personally there have been many times in which I have pondered in order to hit my second land drop and being able to see that 3rd card and shuffle it away mattered. But I am not a statistician and don't have the numbers to back me up so I won't bother trying.



SIDEBOARD [15]:
1 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
1 Life from the loam - BROKEN! its sooooo good against WastelandDecks. especially shines vs D&T but still after SB we can crush opponent man abase by our Wasteland in mirror match. Still remember that we can dredge it and fulfill our grave.
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Dread of night
1 Sylvan Library
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Golgari Charm


Loam could be an interesting SB option against Lands or D&T but I think that if I were to try and build a Czech Pile deck with a wasteland loam package, I would try to go up to 22 lands. The idea that you can switch 2 lands to colorless sources, put a Loam in your board and call it a day seems dubious but I try not to judge anyone without adequate proof. What does your testing data look like?

[Wiktul]

I'm gonna try to go through these points one at a time.



I would like to know how and with whom you have tested. To me this seems like you should have gotten the opposite result. Do you have data to back up this claim?

While having Wasteland can be useful when dealing with the Marit Lage combo, lands has a multitude of ways of locking you out of mana with Ghost Quarter, Wasteland and Port. Whenever I have played against lands I have gotten choked on mana more times than I can count and the problem was always been them loaming back Ghost Quarter over and over. Many Lands players don't use Port anymore because GQ can destroy basics. I don't see how cutting color mana sources and bringing in Wastelands helps with this. Postboard you do have Life from the Loam but Lands can put multiple lands into play per turn or can destroy your two green sources. I don't think you can win that race if both you and your opponent are spending each turn returning lands from the graveyard.


I'd love to be that data, as the Lands player who helped to test this build.

I'd also love to see my every matchup with DRS control decks to go as you present them: to be able to combo off fast, secure boardstate with timely and unchallanged Wastelock and reccuring removal against DRS, having the time to deal with both duals and basics with wastelands,quarters and ports at the same time.

Unfortunately, usually that's not the case. Usually I need to choose one of those plans when I see t1 DRS on the draw, and either my Exploration, Loam or Punishing Fire gets countered. Quarter is excellent when it works as trip mine, which means when my opponent don't play basics. When they do, I'm literally wasting my land into nothing, filtering the value of your draw and putting myself in need of recurring that Quarter under grave hate, counters and pressure, not to mention the unpleasant aspect of Leovold's protection.

Still, my main gameplan against you will be fast combo or strong mana denial. Opposite wasteland is one of the biggest threats to both of those plans. I need to play around it's activation for another turn, untill I can put my own waste into play. I need to risk crop rotating or making the token mainphase, when it can be eaten by Jace. 4 Qarters builds are worse when they don't put ourselves in immediate advantage and with opponent having access to basics - they don't. It's just one more turn to get them back from grave, sure. If Loam won't get countered. And if they won't be eaten by DRS or Surgical. And if you don't have another basic. And if I do have an Exploration in play, cause trading 1 for 1 is paaainfully slow for me and I can't afford crawling like this for 5 turns while any opponent with brain will Brainstorm for 3rd land and play Nemezis or Leo. That's why I preffer split Quarter / Port build but that's of course just my personal prefference.

To sum up the "wasteland" part, after playing the deck for over 3 years now, I bearly can name a single card that is more problematic to Lands than opposite Wasteland (well, maybe Blood Moon or DRS, which you can combine together in your deck). I can't argue for the whole metagame being vulnerable to this choice, yet after good 3 months of playing against HardBrain's deck I can assure you it's not easy for me to dispatch, nor it is clunky against other decks in our quite diversed meta :wink:

[Misersoneof]

I'd love to be that data, as the Lands player who helped to test this build.

I'd also love to see my every matchup with DRS control decks to go as you present them: to be able to combo off fast, secure boardstate with timely and unchallanged Wastelock and reccuring removal against DRS, having the time to deal with both duals and basics with wastelands,quarters and ports at the same time.

Unfortunately, usually that's not the case. Usually I need to choose one of those plans when I see t1 DRS on the draw, and either my Exploration, Loam or Punishing Fire gets countered. Quarter is excellent when it works as trip mine, which means when my opponent don't play basics. When they do, I'm literally wasting my land into nothing, filtering the value of your draw and putting myself in need of recurring that Quarter under grave hate, counters and pressure, not to mention the unpleasant aspect of Leovold's protection.

Still, my main gameplan against you will be fast combo or strong mana denial. Opposite wasteland is one of the biggest threats to both of those plans. I need to play around it's activation for another turn, untill I can put my own waste into play. I need to risk crop rotating or making the token mainphase, when it can be eaten by Jace. 4 Qarters builds are worse when they don't put ourselves in immediate advantage and with opponent having access to basics - they don't. It's just one more turn to get them back from grave, sure. If Loam won't get countered. And if they won't be eaten by DRS or Surgical. And if you don't have another basic. And if I do have an Exploration in play, cause trading 1 for 1 is paaainfully slow for me and I can't afford crawling like this for 5 turns while any opponent with brain will Brainstorm for 3rd land and play Nemezis or Leo. That's why I preffer split Quarter / Port build but that's of course just my personal prefference.

To sum up the "wasteland" part, after playing the deck for over 3 years now, I bearly can name a single card that is more problematic to Lands than opposite Wasteland (well, maybe Blood Moon or DRS, which you can combine together in your deck). I can't argue for the whole metagame being vulnerable to this choice, yet after good 3 months of playing against HardBrain's deck I can assure you it's not easy for me to dispatch, nor it is clunky against other decks in our quite diversed meta :wink:

Thanks for the input. I am always glad to get details on testing and I'd like to learn more about how wasteland can be used against a lands player. I can't be sure but I don't think I've played against Lands with Wasteland in my deck.

Could either of you go into more detail about which lands should be targeted with wasteland or how it can be used to protect our lands in the matchup? Also, how often did being on the play effect your games?

In my experience, having a T1 Deathrite against lands is pretty powerful but when he came down T2 he would usually end up PFired or Molten Vortex'd before I got any activations in. Then the burden was on me to find another Deathrite. I mention this because drawing a wasteland seems to be not very helpful in this situation. Does Wasteland lose value if you are on the draw?

To add on to the above, Wiktul, you mention how you have to choose between either killing DRS or destroying lands. Often, my opponent would kill my DRS and then go after my lands. It was a gradual process to be sure but it locked me out quick enough and I wasn't able to cast anything bigger than a 1/1 Strix. How often is this strategy of destroying each of the opponent's lands just too slow?

[Wiktul]

Thanks for the input. I am always glad to get details on testing and I'd like to learn more about how wasteland can be used against a lands player. I can't be sure but I don't think I've played against Lands with Wasteland in my deck.

Could either of you go into more detail about which lands should be targeted with wasteland or how it can be used to protect our lands in the matchup? Also, how often did being on the play effect your games?

In my experience, having a T1 Deathrite against lands is pretty powerful but when he came down T2 he would usually end up PFired or Molten Vortex'd before I got any activations in. Then the burden was on me to find another Deathrite. I mention this because drawing a wasteland seems to be not very helpful in this situation. Does Wasteland lose value if you are on the draw?

To add on to the above, Wiktul, you mention how you have to choose between either killing DRS or destroying lands. Often, my opponent would kill my DRS and then go after my lands. It was a gradual process to be sure but it locked me out quick enough and I wasn't able to cast anything bigger than a 1/1 Strix. How often is this strategy of destroying each of the opponent's lands just too slow?

Well, that depends much of your game strategy at the very beginning of the match - do you like to keep and to search for more lands in first turns, or would you rather rely on the power of DRS and keep one lander. The former requires time to shut you down, the time I usually don't have as long as you're able to defend Shaman and / or counter my key spells in right time.

As for your previous question - wasteland is most dangerous turn 1-2, when destroying my Taiga or Grove, very often the only coloured mana sources to begin with. Even with Exploration or Manabond colorless hand will be slow grind of mana denial without graveyard interaction (no G for Loam), partial combo without acceleration (no G for Cropp, no R for Gamble) and most importantly no removal available. You can pay for my Tabernacle t1 with no lands in play, feeding DRS the very wasteland I used to kill your single land. I can't do that. That is why 85% of the time first fetchable Lands land will be basic forest.

Another situation when waste is an advantage for you is its disruption of my combo. Even without active DRS that's simply time and mana literally wasted to play around it. In those turns I need to port it, to force it with my own waste or quarter or to Loam back the combo pieces and put them into play again, you can have Strixes flying around, edict waiting in hand and Jace ready to go. Over the course of 2 turns I usually need to reasemble the combo you can dig into how many cards for the answer? 6? 8?

Another card that is very good against you is Barbarian Ring - that's another reason to regullary eat lands from my graveyard (Loam is pointless without options) and to have acces to wasteland without any other answers to the Ring killing your stuff. Karakas is quite "meh" for me here, yet I still preffer to bounce your Leo for days, making it 3 mana sorcery "draw a card" each turn instead of "draw 3 cards for all lands and mobs I'm trying to kill". Not much you can do about it, unless you have wasteland.

As for shaman wars it's mostly as you described it. T1 drs backed up with fow is much of an issue. T2 shaman without fow (usually used against my Exploration, Manabond or Gamble) is not so good and that's another reason to play t2 (your t1) wasteland into my single land (assuming you've countered acceleration previously) and see how that goes for me.

[maxim.krisevich]

Hello, just want to share my current list with Kess wich won me a 20-man local tournament recently

1 Badlands
1 Bayou
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Kess, Dissident Mage

1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Fatal Push
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize

No spicy singletons MD, only universal high-impact cards.

2 Flusterstorm
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Counterspell
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Pyroblast
1 Hydroblast
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Sylvan Library
1 Golgari Charm
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Tornament recap:
R1 BUG Shardless Aluren 2-0 (TS/Hymns/Leovold killing Ancestrals)
R2 BUG TNN 2-1 (No way they can outgrind Kess)
R3 UR Sneak and Show (2-0) (just got too lucky with lots of discard and counters)
R4 Death and Taxes 2-1 (could split but decided to play, as we are greatly favored. Still got punished for keeping 1-lander)
R5 ID, I'm 1st at swiss, always play first in top8 rounds

Top8 UR Sneak and Show (2-0) discard + Jace to finish
Top4 BR Reanimator (2-1) lead with trop-drs all 3 games. Opponent reanimated Sire of Insanity games 1 and game 3. Game 1 I manage to topdeck Strix before dying, game 3 I topdeck Edict. So swingy.
Top2 Elves (2-0) don't let them combo off and shoot all dudes

[Misersoneof]

Hello, just want to share my current list with Kess wich won me a 20-man local tournament recently

1 Badlands
1 Bayou
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Kess, Dissident Mage

1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Fatal Push
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize

No spicy singletons MD, only universal high-impact cards.

2 Flusterstorm
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Counterspell
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Pyroblast
1 Hydroblast
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Sylvan Library
1 Golgari Charm
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Tornament recap:
R1 BUG Shardless Aluren 2-0 (TS/Hymns/Leovold killing Ancestrals)
R2 BUG TNN 2-1 (No way they can outgrind Kess)
R3 UR Sneak and Show (2-0) (just got too lucky with lots of discard and counters)
R4 Death and Taxes 2-1 (could split but decided to play, as we are greatly favored. Still got punished for keeping 1-lander)
R5 ID, I'm 1st at swiss, always play first in top8 rounds

Top8 UR Sneak and Show (2-0) discard + Jace to finish
Top4 BR Reanimator (2-1) lead with trop-drs all 3 games. Opponent reanimated Sire of Insanity games 1 and game 3. Game 1 I manage to topdeck Strix before dying, game 3 I topdeck Edict. So swingy.
Top2 Elves (2-0) don't let them combo off and shoot all dudes

Sick finish. Congratulations!

I have a friend who runs Kess but he has had trouble in the past dealing with decks that run Red Blasts or Swords to Plowshares. Against BUG decks she is a house though. How do you think your build is against Delver (Grixis or UR), Miracles and the mirror?

[maxim.krisevich]

How do you think your build is against Delver (Grixis or UR), Miracles and the mirror?

Delver can be very fast (UR being the worst for us), so we should prioritize removal and Strixes to stall to late game. Kess can work as fast clock if we survive the early agression.
Against Miracles - discard-snap-discard hepls greatly, and we should make them use swords on DRS/Snaps/Leo and play Kess as our last game-ending threat.

[Poron]

Kess is a SB card against Sultai and Eldrazi. Against Miracle and Grixis doesn't sound great

[Kyuuri117]

Miracles player here, just looking around at current decklists of opposing decks for my upcoming weekly legacy tournament. Can confirm that Kess is basically a dead card against us, so many easy ways to remove it. And we're cutting STP to a 2-3 of in sb matches anyway since we're bringing in 4 red blast effects. It's not sticking around for more than 1 free spell, so you might as well just run an extra snapcaster. Baleful strix is one of your best clocks against us actually. Don't want to waste a blast/stp on it, don't want to bounce it with jace, and using a terminus on it and a snapcaster, or just two strix feels bad, especially as you guys draw so many cards and are just going to find em again.

[beta]

Hi all,

Been thinking of getting back to czech pile after taking a short hiatus from magic. Wanna try to incorporate inquisition of kosilek after Tomas's latest MKM win and see how it pans out.

Below is my current decklist which i will take for a spin at this friday LGS:

4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Badlands

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
3 Snapcardster Mage

2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughseize
2 Hymn to tourach
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Kologhan's Command
2 Fatal push
1 Diabolic Edict
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Lightning bolt

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

SB:
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Flusterstorm
1 Slyvan Library
2 Marsh Casualties
1 Liliana, the last hope
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Hymn to Tourach


Appreciate some feedback on this list. Reason why I played 2 Decays main is due to the resurgence of miracles. My meta is quite varied, Delvers (RUG, Grixis mainly), reanimator, Eldrazi, Nic Fit, Miracles, Burn, Stompy decks

[DemolitionColorScheme]

SB:
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Flusterstorm
1 Slyvan Library
2 Marsh Casualties
1 Liliana, the last hope
2 Flusterstorm
1 Diabolic Edict
You're running 4 Flusterstorm? That must be a typo, since it's mentioned twice as 2 Flusterstorm.

[beta]

You're running 4 Flusterstorm? That must be a typo, since it's mentioned twice as 2 Flusterstorm.

yup, you are right. thanks for spotting the typo.

[DemolitionColorScheme]

How do we feel about Tomas Mar's exact list @ MKM Frankfurt?

[19 LANDS]
1 Badlands
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volcanic Island

[13 CREATURES]
4 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
3 Snapcaster Mage

[26 INSTANTS and SORCERIES]
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
2 Fatal Push
4 Force of Will
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Night's Whisper
4 Ponder
1 Thoughtseize

[2 PLANESWALKERS]
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

[SIDEBOARD]
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Flusterstorm
2 Forked Bolt
2 Marsh Casualties
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Sylvan Library
1 Tarmogoyf

---------------------------------------------

- 4C Czech Pile - Tomas Mar @ MKM Series Frankfurt (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18145&d=312496&f=LE)

---------------------------------------------

19 Lands, zero basics, slightly more leaning on G and more pro-active with the additional discard. Night's Whisper is cute. Tarmogoyf in the SB, probably for clocking combo matchups. It's really interesting and there's a reason he's 1st place, but running no basics seems extremely greedy to me. Did he just get lucky dodging Wasteland? :confused:

[zhandro]

Hi all,

A quick question. The current duals I have are 2 U seas, 2 Volcs, 2 Bayous, 4 Trops, 1 Badlands. Would it be possible to run the deck with 2 U Seas, possibly using either an extra Trop or Bayou to replace it?

[DemolitionColorScheme]

Hi all,

A quick question. The current duals I have are 2 U seas, 2 Volcs, 2 Bayous, 4 Trops, 1 Badlands. Would it be possible to run the deck with 2 U Seas, possibly using either an extra Trop or Bayou to replace it?
Depends on the list, but going with anything less than 3 USea does seem kinda dangerous. I'd say: Give it a shot. Try to replace 1 with a Trop.

[mike1987]

How do we feel about Tomas Mar's exact list @ MKM Frankfurt?

[19 LANDS]
1 Badlands
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volcanic Island

[13 CREATURES]
4 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
3 Snapcaster Mage

[26 INSTANTS and SORCERIES]
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
2 Fatal Push
4 Force of Will
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Night's Whisper
4 Ponder
1 Thoughtseize

[2 PLANESWALKERS]
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

[SIDEBOARD]
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Flusterstorm
2 Forked Bolt
2 Marsh Casualties
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Sylvan Library
1 Tarmogoyf

---------------------------------------------

- 4C Czech Pile - Tomas Mar @ MKM Series Frankfurt (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18145&d=312496&f=LE)

---------------------------------------------

19 Lands, zero basics, slightly more leaning on G and more pro-active with the additional discard. Night's Whisper is cute. Tarmogoyf in the SB, probably for clocking combo matchups. It's really interesting and there's a reason he's 1st place, but running no basics seems extremely greedy to me. Did he just get lucky dodging Wasteland? :confused:

I think playing IOK over thoughtseize is good against tempo and even burn as the life loss matters. Being more proactive matters in a metagame with more miracles i feel. In a 300 plus man tournament, i am sure he will run into some delver decks. But then again he is Tomas Mar, the creator of this deck so he will know what to do :tongue:

I myself find it hard to go down to 19 lands though and its also interesting to note that he didnt play any edict main, i.e. inability to remove a TNN or marit lage, unless jace bounce the latter

[Misersoneof]

I think playing IOK over thoughtseize is good against tempo and even burn as the life loss matters. Being more proactive matters in a metagame with more miracles i feel. In a 300 plus man tournament, i am sure he will run into some delver decks. But then again he is Tomas Mar, the creator of this deck so he will know what to do :tongue:

I myself find it hard to go down to 19 lands though and its also interesting to note that he didnt play any edict main, i.e. inability to remove a TNN or marit lage, unless jace bounce the latter

I think this list was tuned for the metagame he expected. With few edicts, no basics and going up to 3 Snapcasters it seems he was planning to fight grindy control matchups. Had he faced a lot of Eldrazi, Turbo Depths and Lands players then he would've had a miserable time. The metagame breakdown (http://series.magiccardmarket.eu/coverage-mkm-series-frankfurt-2018-legacy/#metagame-breakdown) of the tournament shows that he was not far off. The most represented deck was Grixis Delver/4 Color Control and the second most was "BUG Leovold" which I believe is a midrange deck.

I wouldn't want to play this deck in my meta which has an abundance of Eldrazi, Sneak and Show, Delver and D&T players.

[mike1987]

3 Czech Pile made top 8 in a 100+ tournament in Germany

http://www.eternal-clash.com/event/24-02-2018/top-8-decklists/

Interesting thing to note is that all of them either play a singleton search in mainboard or in the sideboard

[Misersoneof]

3 Czech Pile made top 8 in a 100+ tournament in Germany

http://www.eternal-clash.com/event/24-02-2018/top-8-decklists/

Interesting thing to note is that all of them either play a singleton search in mainboard or in the sideboard

It seems that the deck is shifting to be even 'grindier' with more ways to get CA. I assume it still has a decent Delver matchup but I bet you have to be very careful/lucky with your cantrips.

If we compare the 3 lists:

1st Place list
-13 creatures with the flex slot going to a Liliana of the last hope main
- 2 main Hymns + 1 in SB
- 1 SB Search for Azcanta
- 1 SB Sylvan Library
(Also 1 watery grave and 2 U Seas but lets assume that isn't relevent)

2nd Place list
-14 creatures with 4 Snapcaster
- 3 main hymns
- 1 main Search for Azcanta
- 3 SB REB effects
- 2 SB Blue Blasts
- No deluge in the 75

4th Place list
-14 creatures with 3 Snap and 1 Kess
- 3 main Hymns
- 1 main Murderous Cut
- 1 SB Search
- 1 SB Liliana the last hope
- 1 SB Maelstrom Pulse

What can we draw from this?

[ozimek]

It was me in 2nd place. Some random observations:

Search was insane all day. Singlehandedly won me at least three games. Of course, a sylvan library or painful truths or similar might also have gotten the job done.

Facing maindeck Lily TLH in the finals was rough.

I was a bit disappointed with the blue blasts. They always seemed to be in my hand at the wrong time. Against burn I didn't draw them a single time, but that's just variance. They obviously would have been great if drawn.

Hymns are super critical in the mirror, and it seems to be decided by whomever resolves one first.

In testing, the life loss from Toxic Deluge was pretty bad, so I figured that with Edicts vs beefy creatures, and Lily + Staticaster is machine guns vs swarms l was reasonably covered. Lily returning a Strix is also pretty useful vs Anglers and Goyfs.

I would have liked to have access to another abrupt decay.

I played against the Kess list. Think it was the semis. Kess didn't seem great due to blast vulnerability.

[mike1987]

It was me in 2nd place. Some random observations:

Search was insane all day. Singlehandedly won me at least three games. Of course, a sylvan library or painful truths or similar might also have gotten the job done.

Facing maindeck Lily TLH in the finals was rough.

I was a bit disappointed with the blue blasts. They always seemed to be in my hand at the wrong time. Against burn I didn't draw them a single time, but that's just variance. They obviously would have been great if drawn.

Hymns are super critical in the mirror, and it seems to be decided by whomever resolves one first.

In testing, the life loss from Toxic Deluge was pretty bad, so I figured that with Edicts vs beefy creatures, and Lily + Staticaster is machine guns vs swarms l was reasonably covered. Lily returning a Strix is also pretty useful vs Anglers and Goyfs.

I would have liked to have access to another abrupt decay.

I played against the Kess list. Think it was the semis. Kess didn't seem great due to blast vulnerability.

Congrats on the awesome results! Did you play against any miracles? how will you board against them? Not sure if single discards are effective. I would think hymns , reb, search and library are good against them. Post board seems even harder to win as they board in their rebs.

[Misersoneof]

It was me in 2nd place. Some random observations:

Search was insane all day. Singlehandedly won me at least three games. Of course, a sylvan library or painful truths or similar might also have gotten the job done.

Facing maindeck Lily TLH in the finals was rough.

I was a bit disappointed with the blue blasts. They always seemed to be in my hand at the wrong time. Against burn I didn't draw them a single time, but that's just variance. They obviously would have been great if drawn.

Hymns are super critical in the mirror, and it seems to be decided by whomever resolves one first.

In testing, the life loss from Toxic Deluge was pretty bad, so I figured that with Edicts vs beefy creatures, and Lily + Staticaster is machine guns vs swarms l was reasonably covered. Lily returning a Strix is also pretty useful vs Anglers and Goyfs.

I would have liked to have access to another abrupt decay.

I played against the Kess list. Think it was the semis. Kess didn't seem great due to blast vulnerability.

Congratulations on your finish and thanks for your insight. I don't suppose there is a video of this tournament somewhere? I would like to watch the replays.

Regarding your notes, I have some questions.

What was the meta at the tournament like? Did you write down which decks you faced?

You said facing mainboard liliana was rough. Can you elaborate? Did you bring yours in against the mirror? Do you think having her main is a good idea for the field?

Why did you want an extra abrupt decay?

[RankaLee]

friend sent me this its a 81 player turny Dutch open series I think with a few Piles games during coverage and finals.
Think it was few days ago
https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/80b22l/81_player_legacy_event_coverage_with_commentators/

[DemolitionColorScheme]

friend sent me this its a 81 player turny Dutch open series I think with a few Piles games during coverage and finals.
Think it was few days ago
https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/80b22l/81_player_legacy_event_coverage_with_commentators/
I was the Czech Pile player (Michel de Jong) going against Tom Neven, who was playing Soldier Stompy (completely foiled up). I'd say that's an interesting deck which you don't come across often!

Timestamp: 06:07:10

Some misplays from me due to time and camera pressure; that Fatal Push off of that Usea with that Fetch in hand hurt my soul and Snapping back that Abrupt Decay instead of that Push (which in my mind didn't exist due to shame, haha) wasn't that bright, knowing he was playing Challice, Suppression Field and Winter Orb. Game was locked anyways with that Jace out, so just went fast-mode to close things out and won anyways.

Went 4-3 in the end due to drawing nothing but land vs. B/R Reanimator when we were 1-1. Managed to stick it out thanks to hardcasting a FoW and having 2 Flusterstorms, but sadly never drawing any business. Felt I could've gone 5-2.

[FFreak]

Just asking , why not play pile with full set of bolts :) ?

[DemolitionColorScheme]

Just asking , why not play pile with full set of bolts :) ?
Because most versions run on UB. Red is basically just a splash in comparison. I feel a 4-of of Bolt is better suited in tempo decks like Grixis Delver.

[Misersoneof]

Just asking , why not play pile with full set of bolts :) ?


Because most versions run on UB. Red is basically just a splash in comparison. I feel a 4-of of Bolt is better suited in tempo decks like Grixis Delver.

Some decks run more volcs/badlands than others but I think the real answer here is what bolt is in our deck to do. In Czech pile bolt is a cheap source of removal for creatures that can also be used against planeswalkers. Without Bolt, our deck has a hell of a time fighting a resolved planeswalker pre-board and post-board if the walker is non-blue.

On the other side of this coin, Grixis delver runs 4 bolts because it is a cheap source of removal and its aggressive game plan makes bolt into a late game finisher. Pile isn't as aggressive so bolt seldom becomes a late game finisher for us. We also don't necessarily need finishers since Pile excels in the late game with 2-for-1s and topdecks. Instead we run K-command, which fills the role of bolts number 3 and 4 but also has utility in the form of discard, artifact removal and creature recycling.

[DemolitionColorScheme]

To add: When the popularity of Pile was rising, list like D&T stacked up on Mirran Crusader - even going to a full playset, which Bolt was an optional out to. My list features 2 Volcs / 1 Badlands as well and I prefer packing 2 Bolts. Sometimes, in the percentage game, a Bolt does close out a game whereas a Push wouldn't.

[WThomas]

Any consideration to running LofV or Dack Fayden in the 60?

Or is it much of the same eg: discard, creature removal (LotV), and destroy / steal artifacts, draw (Dack)?

[Misersoneof]

To add: When the popularity of Pile was rising, list like D&T stacked up on Mirran Crusader - even going to a full playset, which Bolt was an optional out to. My list features 2 Volcs / 1 Badlands as well and I prefer packing 2 Bolts. Sometimes, in the percentage game, a Bolt does close out a game whereas a Push wouldn't.

You are correct. There are always going to be some creatures that bolt deals with better than fatal push and vice versa. I'd rather have a fatal push against a Thought-Knot Seer or a Tarmogoyf. Part of why pile is so strong is the diversity of cards we have access to.

I also am not saying that bolt cannot be a late game finisher for us but in most cases it is not. I too have used it to win a game. I faced down a mono black pox opponent that ran bitterblossom at my last tournament. To win I had to do my best burn impression and bolt snap bolted him so he died in his own upkeep while I was at 2 life. Usually however, this is not the case.


Any consideration to running LofV or Dack Fayden in the 60?

Or is it much of the same eg: discard, creature removal (LotV), and destroy / steal artifacts, draw (Dack)?

Lilliana of the Veil has seen play in some lists but most of her abilities are not what we need. Her +1 takes out the opponents' worst card and ours. Since our deck is based around 2-for-1s, our worst card is probably better than their worst card. Her -2 is sorcery speed and that can be too slow against opponents making Marit Lage.

Dack Fayden, on the other hand, has seen play but he requires cards that can be returned to your hand for card advantage. This is why some builds have been including punishing fire and grove of the burnwillows to return it to the hand. Here is a video of the list being played. (https://www.channelfireball.com/videos/4-color-control-legacy-channel-mengucci/)

The problem with this strategy IMO has been that grove forces the deck to go heavier with green and run less black. Additionally, punishing fire is 2 mana which can make it too slow or easily dazed. In a meta filled with fast delvers and Marit Lage tokens on turn 2, black is better. Black gives us Fatal Push, Diabolic Edict, Marsh Casualties and Toxic Deluge.

[xix]

Lilliana of the Veil has seen play in some lists but most of her abilities are not what we need. Her +1 takes out the opponents' worst card and ours. Since our deck is based around 2-for-1s, our worst card is probably better than their worst card. Her -2 is sorcery speed and that can be too slow against opponents making Marit Lage.

Dack Fayden, on the other hand, has seen play but he requires cards that can be returned to your hand for card advantage. This is why some builds have been including punishing fire and grove of the burnwillows to return it to the hand. Here is a video of the list being played. (https://www.channelfireball.com/videos/4-color-control-legacy-channel-mengucci/)

I would watch this stream for the Dack list instead, mengucci was having fun and self-admitting didn't understand the real power of rise//fall usage. And this stream has like weeks of gameplay footage :)
https://www.twitch.tv/stryfo

I agree with most of what you said though, veil is much better in the dack lists and the pfire lists, because you can just discard pfire while they discard better cards. I would play last hope if you weren't on the pfire plan 10/10

[Misersoneof]

I would watch this stream for the Dack list instead, mengucci was having fun and self-admitting didn't understand the real power of rise//fall usage. And this stream has like weeks of gameplay footage :)
https://www.twitch.tv/stryfo


Thanks for the link. I'll definitely have to check it out. I still think that going into Dack + P Fire isn't where this deck wants to be but I'm willing to be surprised.

I agree with you about the Mengucci video but I also think that he has trouble with legacy in general. I watch his legacy series when I run out of other content and I have seen him make various plays that have left me scratching my head.

[Julian23]

Here's an invite link to the Czech Pile Discord server: https://discord.gg/8X3J5Uh

My opponent at GP Madrid last weekend asked me whether I knew about a Czech Pile discord and I told him I'd post it here if I found it.

[beta]

Here's an invite link to the Czech Pile Discord server: https://discord.gg/8X3J5Uh

My opponent at GP Madrid last weekend asked me whether I knew about a Czech Pile discord and I told him I'd post it here if I found it.

Just a pity that chat group is not that active compared to the rest. :frown: I wonder where did Tomas Mar and the others go to talk about strategies.

[Misersoneof]

Just a pity that chat group is not that active compared to the rest. :frown: I wonder where did Tomas Mar and the others go to talk about strategies.

This forum can be pretty inactive as well. haha..

All kidding aside, I have been thinking about having an unearth or 2 in the main to help with the grindier matchups. It seems so useful since if we can't use it, it at least cycles for a new card. Has anyone on here been playing with them? What do you guys think about it?

[WThomas]

This forum can be pretty inactive as well. haha..

All kidding aside, I have been thinking about having an unearth or 2 in the main to help with the grindier matchups. It seems so useful since if we can't use it, it at least cycles for a new card. Has anyone on here been playing with them? What do you guys think about it?

Wouldn't Unearth just make our good MU's better?

I play in a heavy D+T meta and have been testing 2 bolts main and really enjoying the flexibility. Has anyone else tried upping the bolt count?

[Misersoneof]

Wouldn't Unearth just make our good MU's better?

Which matchups are you talking about? I think Unearth is great against aggro and grindy matchups. Against delver or eldrazi you can rebuy creatures that have fallen in combat or to removal. The only decks I wouldn't necessarily want it against are those that play Plow or Chalice but even then you can cycle it. It seems pretty flexible, but maybe it's just too narrow. I've been trying to think of what I would cut for 1 of them. What do you think? Even if you wouldn't play it yourself, what would you cut?


I play in a heavy D+T meta and have been testing 2 bolts main and really enjoying the flexibility. Has anyone else tried upping the bolt count?

As far as I can tell, 2 bolts have somewhat become the norm. Every list I've looked at in the past month has run at least 2. If you're talking about going up to 3 or 4 then I suggest you scroll up a little bit to post #302 where we talk about why we don't usually run the full 4. In a D&T heavy meta, you might find it valuable to have more, but with 3 snapcaster, you can always snap one back when you need more. My overall feeling with D&T is that it has lost a lot of it's power and is not as strong as it once was. How has the matchup been for you overall?

[WThomas]

Which matchups are you talking about? I think Unearth is great against aggro and grindy matchups. Against delver or eldrazi you can rebuy creatures that have fallen in combat or to removal. The only decks I wouldn't necessarily want it against are those that play Plow or Chalice but even then you can cycle it. It seems pretty flexible, but maybe it's just too narrow. I've been trying to think of what I would cut for 1 of them. What do you think? Even if you wouldn't play it yourself, what would you cut?

Perhaps that was a little of an overstatement on my behalf. I meant, it's probably a little too cute, it takes a little bit of work to set up and I think i would rather it be another removal spell. Have you found it to be not the case?



As far as I can tell, 2 bolts have somewhat become the norm. Every list I've looked at in the past month has run at least 2. If you're talking about going up to 3 or 4 then I suggest you scroll up a little bit to post #302 where we talk about why we don't usually run the full 4. In a D&T heavy meta, you might find it valuable to have more, but with 3 snapcaster, you can always snap one back when you need more. My overall feeling with D&T is that it has lost a lot of it's power and is not as strong as it once was. How has the matchup been for you overall?

Yeah, i dont think 4 bolts is where you want to be, but hadn't seen much literature on more than 1 bolt. I'm only new to the format so orginally it was difficult (i was also on 1 bolt), however with more knowledge and the additional bolt (perhaps a crutch?) it has felt much more manageable 55-60%.

[Misersoneof]

Perhaps that was a little of an overstatement on my behalf. I meant, it's probably a little too cute, it takes a little bit of work to set up and I think i would rather it be another removal spell. Have you found it to be not the case?


Yeah, i dont think 4 bolts is where you want to be, but hadn't seen much literature on more than 1 bolt. I'm only new to the format so orginally it was difficult (i was also on 1 bolt), however with more knowledge and the additional bolt (perhaps a crutch?) it has felt much more manageable 55-60%.


From my experience, unearth can be great in the mirror and against Grixis delver. It's a positive tempo spell that allows you to put a more expensive or valuable creature into play for equal or less mana. I've used it to put a strix into play against an early aggressive start and used it to bring a snapcaster back to flashback removal. However, with all that being said, I think the meta has moved away from where this type of play can be helpful. Currently Death and Taxes is a Deck to Beat and Unearth is really bad against them because our creatures get outclassed by Thalia and Mom and will get Plowed.

With the rise of Death and Taxes, we may also see a move to add more bolts in the main. Bolt is overall better against D&T because it can hit Mirran Crusader and is cheap for Thalia. A lot of people on the Discord Server have been high on adding more bolts.

If Death and Taxes becomes more prevalent then I will use the Unearth flex slot I have for a liliana the last hope. She has a similar effect but also can wipe out a board of small-ish creatures.

[WThomas]

From my experience, unearth can be great in the mirror and against Grixis delver. It's a positive tempo spell that allows you to put a more expensive or valuable creature into play for equal or less mana. I've used it to put a strix into play against an early aggressive start and used it to bring a snapcaster back to flashback removal. However, with all that being said, I think the meta has moved away from where this type of play can be helpful. Currently Death and Taxes is a Deck to Beat and Unearth is really bad against them because our creatures get outclassed by Thalia and Mom and will get Plowed.

With the rise of Death and Taxes, we may also see a move to add more bolts in the main. Bolt is overall better against D&T because it can hit Mirran Crusader and is cheap for Thalia. A lot of people on the Discord Server have been high on adding more bolts.

If Death and Taxes becomes more prevalent then I will use the Unearth flex slot I have for a liliana the last hope. She has a similar effect but also can wipe out a board of small-ish creatures.

I certainly see your point, I currently have 1-2 flex spots, so I may give it a whirl. As for LtLH, I can confirm, it's gas. Just sometimes it's too slow.


Has anyone tried the no basics list, I like the idea of being able to waste opposing decks to slow them down early/mid and letting our superior end game do the talking as unopposed as possible through the early - mid turns.

[Misersoneof]

Has anyone tried the no basics list, I like the idea of being able to waste opposing decks to slow them down early/mid and letting our superior end game do the talking as unopposed as possible through the early - mid turns.

When I first started playing the deck I ran 2 Wasteland / no basics. I occasionally found that I was weak to things like blood moon which could sometimes win games on the spot. However, I think the best reason to play a couple of basics recently is delver.

If you look at the Grixis Delver Primer, their plan against us is to keep our manabase in check while they apply pressure. Their best strategy is to waste us aggressively, pierce or daze our removal of their threat or daze/remove our strixes. This is one of the reasons I am not a huge fan of this move to add more bolts to the main btw. Due to blood moon, we never really want to run a basic mountain. Having a basic swamp gives us access to Deathrite and Fatal Push without opening ourselves to a death-knell blood moon or a wasteland. If you have access to multiple lands in your opener, then it is sometimes right to get the Swamp right away.

[beta]

Another MKM and another victory for czech pile!

http://series.magiccardmarket.eu/coverage-mkm-series-rome-2018-legacy/

Think by playing additional discards sorta helped his combo matchups all the way to Top 8. What strikes me is the singleton library in the main, cutting down to 3 ponder and FOW.

[NegatorITA]

Another MKM and another victory for czech pile!

http://series.magiccardmarket.eu/coverage-mkm-series-rome-2018-legacy/

Think by playing additional discards sorta helped his combo matchups all the way to Top 8. What strikes me is the singleton library in the main, cutting down to 3 ponder and FOW.

It s clearly set for grindy matches and the vextra discard is for early interaction indeed, since force is card disadvantage, and that list is all about making the most out of everything ( like 3 Bolt to ensure mirran crusaders and opponent profile doesn't ruin your party)
I like it a lot, just I know I can't run less than 4 forces in the main.

[Kyle]

I understand that it can be narrow, but has anyone considered running Ensnaring Bridge in the SB for Lands/Depths and Sneak and Show, and even Eldrazi at times? It seems like it could be worth testing. I have been running 1x Search for Azcanta and 1x Sylvan Library and rarely bring them in, so I'm considering swapping them for 2x Ensnaring Bridge. You just about always have at least 4 cards in hand so if need-be can easily go under the bridge to attack.

My meta always has at least 1, and regularly 2 Lands/Depths lists every week, so I'm obviously looking to shore up that match-up.

Also, I don't think Lands/Depths/SnS players are planning on bringing in KGrip effects against you under most circumstances.

[Misersoneof]

I understand that it can be narrow, but has anyone considered running Ensnaring Bridge in the SB for Lands/Depths and Sneak and Show, and even Eldrazi at times? It seems like it could be worth testing. I have been running 1x Search for Azcanta and 1x Sylvan Library and rarely bring them in, so I'm considering swapping them for 2x Ensnaring Bridge. You just about always have at least 4 cards in hand so if need-be can easily go under the bridge to attack.

My meta always has at least 1, and regularly 2 Lands/Depths lists every week, so I'm obviously looking to shore up that match-up.

Also, I don't think Lands/Depths/SnS players are planning on bringing in KGrip effects against you under most circumstances.

It seems kind of interesting to test with. If you are up a game, I can see it being random enough to steal G2. But on the other hand, if you lost G1 then they will see it G2 and probably board in K Grip for G3. They may also bring in K Grip anyway to get rid of any enchantments we have in the main or to kill a strix. Give it a test and see how it works in your meta.


On an unrelated note, Czech Pile won the latest MTGO Legacy Challenge (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2018-03-26) and also made up a surprising 31% of the top 32 metagame (https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/87a3u3/legacy_challenge_top32_25th_march_2018/). Congratulations Moseco!

What do people think about the winning list?

My take is that I don't know if I'm a fan of Liliana of the Veil in the main. Also the flex slot seems to be a 3rd K Command over any main discard or extra removal.

[NegatorITA]

It seems kind of interesting to test with. If you are up a game, I can see it being random enough to steal G2. But on the other hand, if you lost G1 then they will see it G2 and probably board in K Grip for G3. They may also bring in K Grip anyway to get rid of any enchantments we have in the main or to kill a strix. Give it a test and see how it works in your meta.


On an unrelated note, Czech Pile won the latest MTGO Legacy Challenge (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2018-03-26) and also made up a surprising 31% of the top 32 metagame (https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/87a3u3/legacy_challenge_top32_25th_march_2018/). Congratulations Moseco!

What do people think about the winning list?

My take is that I don't know if I'm a fan of Liliana of the Veil in the main. Also the flex slot seems to be a 3rd K Command over any main discard or extra removal.

It's an oddball, I never liked her because discarding forces or snaps aren't good, not really anything else usually, yet she can be quite powerful, and the combo of snappy+Lili and counters has been used before successfully, so maybe it's my approach to her use who is wrong, maybe not.
It strikes me that with only two discards main he made it, (would have run the hymn over the deluge Along Liliana too).

[Kyle]

It seems kind of interesting to test with. If you are up a game, I can see it being random enough to steal G2. But on the other hand, if you lost G1 then they will see it G2 and probably board in K Grip for G3. They may also bring in K Grip anyway to get rid of any enchantments we have in the main or to kill a strix. Give it a test and see how it works in your meta.


On an unrelated note, Czech Pile won the latest MTGO Legacy Challenge (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2018-03-26) and also made up a surprising 31% of the top 32 metagame (https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/87a3u3/legacy_challenge_top32_25th_march_2018/). Congratulations Moseco!

What do people think about the winning list?

My take is that I don't know if I'm a fan of Liliana of the Veil in the main. Also the flex slot seems to be a 3rd K Command over any main discard or extra removal.

Not sure why they'd bring in KGrip just for Strix. And there aren't any Enchantments they'd be expecting, but definitely worth testing to find out.

Personally, I like the Moseco list, though I'll never understand why a straightforward CA card like Painful Truths would go in the SB instead of something else, like another Abrupt Decay. I will always have a soft spot in my heart for Liliana of the Veil, regardless of her popularity in Legacy.

[Misersoneof]

Not sure why they'd bring in KGrip just for Strix. And there aren't any Enchantments they'd be expecting, but definitely worth testing to find out.

Personally, I like the Moseco list, though I'll never understand why a straightforward CA card like Painful Truths would go in the SB instead of something else, like another Abrupt Decay. I will always have a soft spot in my heart for Liliana of the Veil, regardless of her popularity in Legacy.

For Strix alone, no. But if they see or expect to see a Sylvan Library or Search for Azcanta then they'd probably bring it in. The extra splash damage of killing a Strix to clear the way for their 20/20 would be gravy at that point. I only mention this because I have been running a sylvan in the main and have been enjoying it.

I think CA has been getting the nod over more removal because there has been a general shift in the meta to hate out Grixis Delver. Miracles and Pile have been seeing success lately because they are equipped to handle almost anything and need to be able to beat each other and the mirror. This is why I personally have been preferring The Last Hope over The Veil. The symmetrical discard of of Veil's +1 doesn't advantage you necessarily and her ultimate doesn't "win" the game. Meanwhile The Last Hope can act as removal, CA and her ultimate will win the game.

[Agrippa91]

How do you guys like the BUG (hymn) delver matchup compared to let's say Grixis or RUG Delver? BBD claimed in a recent article that it's better than grixis, but admits that TNN, pyromancer and angler provide more hard-to-deal-with threats. Thoughts?

[TheKingslayer]

How do you guys like the BUG (hymn) delver matchup compared to let's say Grixis or RUG Delver? BBD claimed in a recent article that it's better than grixis, but admits that TNN, pyromancer and angler provide more hard-to-deal-with threats. Thoughts?

Bug Delver is more favorable than Grixis. Like you said, the diversity of Grixis threats is hard to handle. A good hymn on us can ruin the game v bug, but sometimes it just happens. You can usually one for one and then pull ahead on strix, K command, and Jace. Jace is insane v BUG delver, horrible v Grixis. Board Jace out v Grixis, but keep it in vs BUG.

[Misersoneof]

How do you guys like the BUG (hymn) delver matchup compared to let's say Grixis or RUG Delver? BBD claimed in a recent article that it's better than grixis, but admits that TNN, pyromancer and angler provide more hard-to-deal-with threats. Thoughts?

He said in the article that BUG is underrated and that Grixis is overrated. That's not exactly the same thing.

While BUG can hymn the best cards out of our hands and capitalise on that tempo with Goyf, starts like that are very draw dependant. BUG is notoriously bad at topdecking in the late game and can sometimes trip over its own mana in the early game. If we can get to a late topdeck war or if they fail to tempo us in the early game, then we are mostly favoured to win.

I feel that Grixis is better against us because of the flexibility of the deck. Young Pyro being able to go wide and Gurmag being able to go tall means that we have to find the correct answer for the correct threat. Bolt and REB answers our PWs which hurts our ability to pull ahead. Bolt is a finisher if we are at a low life-total. Kcommand can force a discard while removing a blocker. Red mana provides so much these days.

It could be that he thinks people are over-preparing for Grixis and under-preparing for BUG or maybe he just likes playing BUG more. However, if BBD thinks that BUG delver is stronger than Grixis, I don't agree.

[Kyle]

Went 3-1 with this list at my 14-person weekly:

I run 2 Hymn to Tourachs and 1 Liliana, the Last Hope in the maindeck.

// 15 Sideboard
// 3 Artifact
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Ensnaring Bridge

// 1 Creature
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique

// 9 Instant
SB: 1 Diabolic Edict
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Hydroblast
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay

// 2 Sorcery
SB: 1 Marsh Casualties
SB: 1 Hymn to Tourach

----------------------

Round 1 vs D&T win. Not much to write about D&T as this is a very favorable matchup.

1-0

Round 2 vs BR Reanimator. Ensnaring Bridge was an absolute all-star in this match. At one point during G3 he had a Tidespout Tyrant but not enough cards to bounce all the threats I had on the board (Ensnaring Bridge, Leovold, and Strix) and I eventually drew a Snapcaster to flash back a Diabolic Edict in the graveyard to kill the Tyrant and swing with everything.

2-0

Round 3 vs BR Reanimator. Super grindy games and I made a big mistake G1 which was to Hymn him knowing his hand while I had an active Deathrite Shaman in play. He had Griselbrand x2, Grave Titan, and Exhume, and I was hoping I could get his Exhume (which I didn't) and worst-case scenario exile one of his creatures with Shaman in response to the Exhume. I binned two Griselbrands and he Exhumed next turn and I realized that Exhume doesn't target he was able to bring back the one I don't exile. G2 I brought in Surgical Extractions, Flusterstorms, Hydroblast (narrow, for Faithless Looting), Pithing Needle, Ensnaring Bridges, Vendilion Clique, and another Edict. It was a mull to 6 to get a Shaman and some hate, which through a very grindy 20 minutes got there. G3 almost went to time and involved amazing topdecks. At one point I had three Strixes in play with two Surgical Extractions and two Diabolic Edicts in hand. I Surgically Extracted a Collective Brutality to protect my creatures and hand a bit in mid- to late-game, had an active Shaman, and got there eventually.

3-0

Round 4 vs Mono Red Stompy. This is a terrible matchup and I kept and played badly. G1 was a turn one Blood Moon with no answer. G2 was a bad keep (one lander with a Force and blue card), then Rabblemaster (countered), Rabblemaster, Magus, scoop. I chalk this up to just being a bad matchup that requires solid keeps, particularly ones with basics and/or Force of Will and/or Deathrite Shaman and luck.

3-1

[Misersoneof]

Round 4 vs Mono Red Stompy. This is a terrible matchup and I kept and played badly. G1 was a turn one Blood Moon with no answer. G2 was a bad keep (one lander with a Force and blue card), then Rabblemaster (countered), Rabblemaster, Magus, scoop. I chalk this up to just being a bad matchup that requires solid keeps, particularly ones with basics and/or Force of Will and/or Deathrite Shaman and luck.


Mono Red Stompy is always not fun. It's so hard to stay in the game and there just isn't enough removal/counters for all of their lock pieces.

[Poron]

Hydroblast, Ancient Grudge and Kolaghan Command should settle the thing.. just go a little higher on these

Worst case scenario: Abrupt Decay and Naturalize

[RhoxWarMonk]

Long time legacy player here but first time piloting 4C Leovold. I'm really enjoying the deck and was wondering if anyone has had any pointers they can give to a new player? I've already read the whole primer in detail but I still really seem to struggle knowing things like which lands to fetch at what times and what the proper plays are, especially first turn. Generally I lead with a DRS, especially if I'm on the play but Ive been punished so much doing that I'm starting to wonder if I should be leading off with a thoughtseize instead, given the chance? I also sometimes struggle to close games out - I generally feel like I'm threat lite and if I can't get a Jace to stick, it's a slow grind with Strix and Snaps to get there (DRS does a good job too but that's always public enemy number 1, maybe outside Leovold lol). Since then, I've actually started running Liliana, the Last Hope in my deck. I find she can run away with any game if you can manage to tick up and ultimate, giving me one extra threat to push through with.

Here's my decklist for reference, I happily accept any/add advice and criticism, since I'm really just starting to get my feet wet.

Creatures (13)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

Planeswalkers (3)
1 Liliana the Last Hope
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Spells (24)
4 Brainstorm
2 Fatal Push
1 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Thoughtseize
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Kolaghan's Command
4 Force of Will

Lands (20)
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Island
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

Sideboard (15)
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Flusterstorm
1 Hydroblast
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Sylvan Library
1 Blood Sun
1 Toxic Deluge

I'd love to find room for a second copy of Abrupt Decay, there's a lot of Miracles here and while Counterbalance isn't a huge problem, Search for Arcanta is absolutely horrible and needs to be disposed of ASAP.

Lastly, I only own 2 U Seas, which is why Im running 2x Tropical, instead of the 3/1 split. So far, I've really not noticed I needed the 3rd Sea, as I seem to struggle against Wasteland decks no matter what and have actually found most people try to cut me off green first, rather than black (I'm guessing due to most only running 2 Green sources main, maybe?).

[Misersoneof]

Long time legacy player here but first time piloting 4C Leovold. I'm really enjoying the deck and was wondering if anyone has had any pointers they can give to a new player? I've already read the whole primer in detail but I still really seem to struggle knowing things like which lands to fetch at what times and what the proper plays are, especially first turn. Generally I lead with a DRS, especially if I'm on the play but Ive been punished so much doing that I'm starting to wonder if I should be leading off with a thoughtseize instead, given the chance? I also sometimes struggle to close games out - I generally feel like I'm threat lite and if I can't get a Jace to stick, it's a slow grind with Strix and Snaps to get there (DRS does a good job too but that's always public enemy number 1, maybe outside Leovold lol). Since then, I've actually started running Liliana, the Last Hope in my deck. I find she can run away with any game if you can manage to tick up and ultimate, giving me one extra threat to push through with.

Here's my decklist for reference, I happily accept any/add advice and criticism, since I'm really just starting to get my feet wet.

Creatures (13)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

Planeswalkers (3)
1 Liliana the Last Hope
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Spells (24)
4 Brainstorm
2 Fatal Push
1 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Thoughtseize
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Kolaghan's Command
4 Force of Will

Lands (20)
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Island
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

Sideboard (15)
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Flusterstorm
1 Hydroblast
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Sylvan Library
1 Blood Sun
1 Toxic Deluge

I'd love to find room for a second copy of Abrupt Decay, there's a lot of Miracles here and while Counterbalance isn't a huge problem, Search for Arcanta is absolutely horrible and needs to be disposed of ASAP.

Lastly, I only own 2 U Seas, which is why Im running 2x Tropical, instead of the 3/1 split. So far, I've really not noticed I needed the 3rd Sea, as I seem to struggle against Wasteland decks no matter what and have actually found most people try to cut me off green first, rather than black (I'm guessing due to most only running 2 Green sources main, maybe?).

The trick to playing a control deck like Pile or Miracles is that you're #1 job is to figure out what deck your opponent is on and find the cards relevant to beating them. This is often challenging, especially when playing against the mirror, but once you play it enough, you will know.

Generally speaking, you'll want creature removal against aggro decks and counterspells for combo decks. Discard is generally good but sometimes is situational. Hymn is almost always a two for one but you need double black to cast it. If you're land light, it can rot in your hand. Thoughtseize is also almost always good in the early game but can be a liability if you are facing a very aggressive deck like Delver or Burn when that 2 life is relevant.

When deciding what lands to fetch you will need to ask yourself a couple of questions,

What cards in my hand am I trying to cast this or next turn?
What cards can I draw that are going to change my plan?
What is my opponent going to do and what cards are relevant against him or her?

Also probably the biggest question you should ask yourself is, do I need to fetch now?

With so many choices available, it is important to learn how to anticipate what your opponent will do and play accordingly.

I'll give some examples...

You are on the play and you open a seven with 2 fetches, deathrite, hymn, ponder, K command, Thoughtseize. What is the play?

...

Against an unknown opponent I would fetch a Usea and lead with deathrite. The reason is that he will give you the ability to play a 2 mana or 3 mana spell next turn no matter what your opponent does. If your opponent wastelands you then you can still ponder to find more lands. If your opponent plays a delver then you can K command it and make them discard or play around daze and hymn. If your opponent kills the deathrite then you can still hymn them. The only way you get punished is if your opponent combos off on T1 which is highly unlikely.

Next,

You are on the draw with a hand of 6 with 2 fetches, brainstorm, deathrite, thoughtseize, bolt. Your opponent also mulls to 6 and goes T1 volcanic island, ponder, shuffle, draw, pass. Which card do you lead with?

...

I would fetch a sea and lead with the thoughtseize. This play can be punished if it turns out your opponent is a delver player with no threat and a wasteland (an unlikely but possible scenario), but chances are they are a combo deck of some kind. Information about what you are playing against is key and knowing what is in their hand will help you decide what to shuffle away when you brainstorm.


As far as deck building advice, your list seems pretty good. Your SB has blood sun and vendilion clique which jumps out to me. Do you have a meta with a lot of Lands and Combo?

[DemolitionColorScheme]

You are on the play and you open a seven with 2 fetches, deathrite, hymn, ponder, K command, Thoughtseize. What is the play?

...

Against an unknown opponent I would fetch a Usea and lead with deathrite. The reason is that he will give you the ability to play a 2 mana or 3 mana spell next turn no matter what your opponent does. If your opponent wastelands you then you can still ponder to find more lands. If your opponent plays a delver then you can K command it and make them discard or play around daze and hymn. If your opponent kills the deathrite then you can still hymn them. The only way you get punished is if your opponent combos off on T1 which is highly unlikely.
Opinions will vary, but in G1 on the play I'd definitely open up with Thoughtseize, especially with no FoW backup. It's not really about your opponent just comboing off on T1. Taking their opposing DRS, Delver, Challice, Blood Moon, you name it is also excellent.

Quoting you further along the post:

but chances are they are a combo deck of some kind. Information about what you are playing against is key and knowing what is in their hand will help you decide what to shuffle away when you brainstorm.
I feel the same goes with your opening hand. You can still develop DRS and Ponder the next turn, especially seeing what information you've gathered from the TS on T1, improving your Ponder. Besides, you can also opt to play Hymn.

[RhoxWarMonk]

The trick to playing a control deck like Pile or Miracles is that you're #1 job is to figure out what deck your opponent is on and find the cards relevant to beating them. This is often challenging, especially when playing against the mirror, but once you play it enough, you will know.

Generally speaking, you'll want creature removal against aggro decks and counterspells for combo decks. Discard is generally good but sometimes is situational. Hymn is almost always a two for one but you need double black to cast it. If you're land light, it can rot in your hand. Thoughtseize is also almost always good in the early game but can be a liability if you are facing a very aggressive deck like Delver or Burn when that 2 life is relevant.

When deciding what lands to fetch you will need to ask yourself a couple of questions,

What cards in my hand am I trying to cast this or next turn?
What cards can I draw that are going to change my plan?
What is my opponent going to do and what cards are relevant against him or her?

Also probably the biggest question you should ask yourself is, do I need to fetch now?

With so many choices available, it is important to learn how to anticipate what your opponent will do and play accordingly.

I'll give some examples...

You are on the play and you open a seven with 2 fetches, deathrite, hymn, ponder, K command, Thoughtseize. What is the play?

...

Against an unknown opponent I would fetch a Usea and lead with deathrite. The reason is that he will give you the ability to play a 2 mana or 3 mana spell next turn no matter what your opponent does. If your opponent wastelands you then you can still ponder to find more lands. If your opponent plays a delver then you can K command it and make them discard or play around daze and hymn. If your opponent kills the deathrite then you can still hymn them. The only way you get punished is if your opponent combos off on T1 which is highly unlikely.

Next,

You are on the draw with a hand of 6 with 2 fetches, brainstorm, deathrite, thoughtseize, bolt. Your opponent also mulls to 6 and goes T1 volcanic island, ponder, shuffle, draw, pass. Which card do you lead with?

...

I would fetch a sea and lead with the thoughtseize. This play can be punished if it turns out your opponent is a delver player with no threat and a wasteland (an unlikely but possible scenario), but chances are they are a combo deck of some kind. Information about what you are playing against is key and knowing what is in their hand will help you decide what to shuffle away when you brainstorm.


As far as deck building advice, your list seems pretty good. Your SB has blood sun and vendilion clique which jumps out to me. Do you have a meta with a lot of Lands and Combo?

Thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed answer; you nailed it, this is exactly what I'm struggling with. It usually comes down to; what land do I fetch with first (99% of the time I fetch USea but Im sure that's not correct that frequently) and what do I start out with as my first turn play. These scenario's you listed help a lot but as DemolitionColorScheme mentioned above, it's so tempting to throw out the T1 Thoughtseize and try to snag something from their hand instead of playing the DRS. As you stated, I'm sure it's completely dependent on the deck you're playing against but I don't always know what Im up against, especially on the play. One great thing about legacy, it usually doesn't take that long to figure it out but by the time I realize, it could already be too late and I'm already behind due to making the wrong choice on T1.

In regards to my SB options, there's a lot of Sneak and Show in this area, which is why I added the Clique and it's been really solid. There used to be a lot of Storm here too but that's since died off quite a lot, now most of the combo players are on SnS or Turbo Depths, which is also why I wanted to try out the Blood Sun. To be totally honest though, the Blood Sun is really not very good in my experience, even against depths and lands. I was actually considering bringing it in against Wasteland decks as well but it's far too slow and against dark depths.dec, they can sometimes combo off before I even get a chance to play it. It's too narrow and likely is going to get cut for something that's more broad and useful but I haven't quite figured out what that last slot will be yet :) A 3rd Surgical is certainly an option and I've been considering moving a TD into the main deck and putting a second in the SB, but I worry about the card being completely dead against combo. Thats why Im main-decking 4x discard spells at the moment, to give myself a little extra edge in those tough combo matchups.

Overall though, this deck is great and a ton of fun. I think once I get the hang of piloting it a bit better, I'll start to see better results.

[Misersoneof]

Maybe I undervalue targeted discard. I'll have to do some more testing with Thoughtseize and see if my games improve. Lately I've been seeing less and less combo though which might be why my immediate reaction was to play deathrite. I did play against 2 Storm decks earlier this week though so who knows.

In defense of my opening 7 situation that I posted above, I will say that if you went T1 deathrite, you would still be able to function if your opponent responds with a chalice or blood moon. I said that there was a Kcommand and a ponder in the hand which is part of the reason why leading with deathrite seemed like the best course of action. If one or both of those cards were different then I might lead with TS. (I only say might here because it's hard to know what my gut reaction would be at this point)

I find it interesting to hear that Blood Sun is not as good against lands / turbo depths as it appears. I have been considering picking up a couple copies for those matchups to test with. Is it that it is too slow or have you run into lands players boarding in K Grip?

[DemolitionColorScheme]

In defense of my opening 7 situation that I posted above, I will say that if you went T1 deathrite, you would still be able to function if your opponent responds with a chalice or blood moon. I said that there was a Kcommand and a ponder in the hand which is part of the reason why leading with deathrite seemed like the best course of action. If one or both of those cards were different then I might lead with TS. (I only say might here because it's hard to know what my gut reaction would be at this point)
Well, I just stated Chalice as a possible option, something they might have. When I don't know what I'm up against (so, let's not say we're playtesting with a group or friends), I will always fire TS on T1 when I'm on the play. Even if I don't snag something extremely important, the information alone develops my entire gameplan, improving my Ponders, BS and letting me decide if Hymn is of the utmost importance on T2 to destroy their critical mass (in case of combo, for example).

I run a split of 2 TS and 3 Hymn main and I do have to say that in most non-combo matchups I board out the 2 TS, but have been really happy with running 2 main and gathering information. At times it feels like FoW 5 and 6 in a field of scary combo. And at times I'm happy to snag an opposing DRS, Delver (threat) or even a TNN (since I just run Deluge main as an answer, Edict(s), Casualties & Blasts in the side).

[Misersoneof]

On a different topic, earlier this week I went to a legacy local. It was 3 rounds and my only loss was to my friend who was on Miracles. He plays more often than I do so it really isn't surprising that I lost. My plays were really loose and so I want to analyse the game to make sure I'm not missing any mistakes for when I play him again.

He took me down game 1 by accumulating more CA. He predicted himself early on and snapped back some cantrips while I was only able to 1 for 1 him. Once I was down to 1-2 cards and he still had 6, he miracle'd Angels for 4 and I had no way of dealing with them. I don't think there was anything I could've done different here but I'll accept any advice.

OUT 4 Force, 2 Push, 1 Edict, 2 Strix
IN 1 Sylvan Library, 2 Flusterstorm, 3 REB, 2 Hydroblast, 1 Abrupt DK

Game 2 I probably should've won but lost because I was stupid with my resources. I was able to live the dream and drop an uncontested T2 Sylvan Library. Because I am inexperienced with the card, I forgot a couple of my triggers but still managed to get up on CA by paying life. Out of desperation to catch up, my opponent milled his Entreat with a predict which I took as a sign that I was winning. I went down to 2 life from drawing cards which in hindsight was a mistake because I had a number of brainstorms in hand. While I was beating him down he cast a jace, which I answered with a bolt in response to his 0 activiation. The next turn he cast a ruination while my blue sources were tapped. I was left with only my 2 basics I fetched up to play around blood moon but still felt in the game. I swung with my creatures and put him down to lethal next turn but he EOT flashed in a snapcaster which I couldn't answer and took the match.

I think my mistakes were:

Drawing with Sylvan Library despite having cantrips in hand.
Not actively looking for counters against Miracles.
Swinging with creatures despite having no answers to a EOT snapcaster.

What do you guys think? Was there something else I should've done differently? Also, how do you guys board against miracles?

[Amazingxkcd]

He was only able to rip the EOT snapcaster since you pinged yourself too much. Lets say you were at 8 by properly managing your library & cantrips. You still have 4+ turns to find an answer to it while still playing threats against him. In control matchups, every trigger matters, especially beneficial triggers!

[Misersoneof]

Has anyone developed a SB guide for Pile? There seem to be a number of people creating them for Grixis Delver and Miracles but I haven't found one posted on this thread.

EDIT: I do realize that there is one in the primer but I think it's a little out of date.

[Dutch253]

I know he dodged the axe this time but if DRS does end up getting banned how does Pile fair? I’m interested in the deck and only need a JTMS and a Badlands to finish it. I’d really like to play something that’s 50/50 vs most decks in the format.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Terribly. I doubt it would be playable.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

[Dutch253]

Terribly. I doubt it would be playable.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

Really?

[phg22]

Without Shaman, 4 colors simply isn't reasonable. It's likely a similar list would continue to see play without green.

[Misersoneof]

It's generally understood that if Shaman were to get banned that Czech Pile would no longer exist. Pile uses 4 colors interchangeably and has access to cards like Baleful Strix, Hymn to Tourach, Kolaghan's Command, Abrupt Decay, Marsh Casualties and Counterspell which are all color intensive. Shaman helps us to cast these cards. Even when he gets removed he acts as a lightning rod for our opponent to focus their efforts instead of wastelanding us or countering our spells.

If you take him out of the format then Czech Pile becomes too slow or precarious too play. Players would most likely split camps. Some would go into Grixis Control, others into BUG Midrange, and the rest would play whatever delver variant still stands. (Assuming that they don't have some other deck to play)

EDIT Card Tags

[NegatorITA]

Shouldn't we get an updated primer right now?
Many list are now basically grixis, playing no decay, but is it really safe?
edict is now a must have, probably due the presence of depths other than all the others threat (nemesis/angler/eldrazi) which still isn't an easy match up.
the new update on the pw damage rule & the presence of much more beb in the sideboards should make Chandra, torch of defiance a less desiderabile choice, thoughts on this? I've seen more lists running two Liliana in the board, seems good since are harder to deal with.

Miracle is slight more present and I still belive is a even or slight worse match up, some tips will be good.

Br reanimator is a terrible match up with only two surgical in my opinion, same as dredge.

Moon stompy can be harsh, t1 moon or sun almost tilts you out of the game and even if you held that at Bay you still have to face 6/7 more pw, luckily they don't really filter or draw much since we have kolaghan to answer their bottled cloystred/trinisphere/chalices, but pw are hard to hold if you don't pick blue elemental blast in the board

[JackaBo]

Shouldn't we get an updated primer right now?
Many list are now basically grixis, playing no decay, but is it really safe?
edict is now a must have, probably due the presence of depths other than all the others threat (nemesis/angler/eldrazi) which still isn't an easy match up.
the new update on the pw damage rule & the presence of much more beb in the sideboards should make Chandra, torch of defiance a less desiderabile choice, thoughts on this? I've seen more lists running two Liliana in the board, seems good since are harder to deal with.

Miracle is slight more present and I still belive is a even or slight worse match up, some tips will be good.

Br reanimator is a terrible match up with only two surgical in my opinion, same as dredge.

Moon stompy can be harsh, t1 moon or sun almost tilts you out of the game and even if you held that at Bay you still have to face 6/7 more pw, luckily they don't really filter or draw much since we have kolaghan to answer their bottled cloystred/trinisphere/chalices, but pw are hard to hold if you don't pick blue elemental blast in the board

I can't believe miracle is a bad matchup. This deck was orginated as s deck that could fight miracle even during the top era. As long as you run sweepers, rebs and bolts you should be favoured.

[phg22]

It's matchup that a bad player will always lose. I've played from both side and lost once. I think on the whole Miracles is favored from that experience. Their haymakers are more problematic for us (Mentor and nonbasic hate, counterbalance stealing games). Leovold also steals games for Czech, and sticking a Jace is good for both sides. It's close, but probably tilted towards miracles.

[mike1987]

What do you guys think of bitterblossom as a sideboard card? Seems like it excels in the mirror, miracles, turbo depths and lands deck. I am trying out one copy in the side, will update you guys on its efficacy.

[Misersoneof]

Shouldn't we get an updated primer right now?
Many list are now basically grixis, playing no decay, but is it really safe?
edict is now a must have, probably due the presence of depths other than all the others threat (nemesis/angler/eldrazi) which still isn't an easy match up.
the new update on the pw damage rule & the presence of much more beb in the sideboards should make Chandra, torch of defiance a less desiderabile choice, thoughts on this? I've seen more lists running two Liliana in the board, seems good since are harder to deal with.

Miracle is slight more present and I still belive is a even or slight worse match up, some tips will be good.

Br reanimator is a terrible match up with only two surgical in my opinion, same as dredge.

Moon stompy can be harsh, t1 moon or sun almost tilts you out of the game and even if you held that at Bay you still have to face 6/7 more pw, luckily they don't really filter or draw much since we have kolaghan to answer their bottled cloystred/trinisphere/chalices, but pw are hard to hold if you don't pick blue elemental blast in the board

The primer has needed an update for a while and I would love to work on it but I don't have the time that such a job requires. If someone else is interested on working on it, I'd be happy to do some editing or give my input as I have been looking at this deck for a long time now.

I currently run 1 main decay and 1 in the board and I would never consider cutting both of them. It is a clean answer against opposing enchantments and PWs and the only downside is that it is mana intensive.

I think that the biggest issue with the miracles matchup is knowing what your opponent is playing. Miracles currently has around 3-4 different iterations with mentor versus entreat and Counterbalance versus Back to Basics. Even once you've established that your opponent is on miracles, you still can't be sure which threat or lock piece they might try to drop which makes knowing what to search for more difficult.

The best metric for how you are doing is hand size. If you have more cards in hand then they do then you are probably winning. Your best card against them is hymn and you should try to use it as much as possible. Snapping back hymns or cantrips to stay ahead on cards is always a good idea. If they counter back then let it go. Save your counters for their haymakers or lock pieces that you don't have an answer for.

This may be a bad idea but postboard it might be right to keep in some number of FOW. Because Miracles has been eclectic lately they could bring anything from additional copies of their main deck haymakers to things like Gideon, Ally of Zendikar and From the Ashes/Ruination. These are must answer threats and we need a counter for them.


What do you guys think of bitterblossom as a sideboard card? Seems like it excels in the mirror, miracles, turbo depths and lands deck. I am trying out one copy in the side, will update you guys on its efficacy.

I cannot comment on Bitterblossom's efficacy against lands and turbo depths but I have seen it across the table from me a couple of times and each time I've seen it as being "on my team". The slow drain of life means that the opponent has put themselves on a clock and rather than a slow game that can go back and forth, they now have a time limit. Because of this my game plan usually becomes either "outlast the clock" or "burn them out".

What worries me about using it against control decks though is that it is a slow engine and it can be mitigated with a well timed wrath. Doing some simple math, you don't see any advantage from it until Turn 5 when you finally manage to get up on life. This is of course assuming you are swinging with the tokens each time and none of them get removed. Please let us know how your testing goes though.

edit I can't English

[Chhaam]

I cannot comment on Bitterblossom's efficacy against lands and turbo depths but I have seen it across the table from me a couple of times and each time I've seen it as being "on my team". The slow drain of life means that the opponent has put themselves on a clock and rather than a slow game that can go back and forth, they now have a time limit. Because of this my game plan usually becomes either "outlast the clock" or "burn them out".

What worries me about using it against control decks though is that it is a slow engine and it can be mitigated with a well timed wrath. Doing some simple math, you don't see any advantage from it until Turn 5 when you finally manage to get up on life. This is of course assuming you are swinging with the tokens each time and none of them get removed. Please let us know how your testing goes though.

I went 5-2 in the legacy open this weekend before my team died with this board. Wins against D&T, B/R reanimator, Grixis Delver, B/G Depths, ANT. Losses to elves (just couldn't find removal) and Shardless in turn 5 of turns.
This was my board:
1 Bitterblossom
1 Blood Sun
1 Chandra, Torch of defiance
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Flusterstorm
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Hydroblast
1 Liliana The Last Hope
1 Marsh Casualties
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sylvan Library

I find Bitterblossom amazing in the lands and turbo depths matchups as well as very strong against miracles and reasonable against some other grindy decks. I like that it both protects you from the 20/20 while putting your opponent on a faster clock for little cost. When my opponent is gonna kill me by swing for 20 it hardly matters what life total I'm at and forcing my opp to draw enough outs to beat bitterblossom and the rest of my deck fast enough feels really strong.

The well timed wrath in miracles is good, but that's assuming we arent applying any other pressure than faerie tokens. If they have to wrath my 3 tokens and a deathrite and i untap and slam a leovold while the tokens keep pumping out, it burns through their resources quickly and forces them to have the board wipe repeatedly.

Right now I'm considering adding 2 wasteland to the main and a loam in the side for the depths matchup since it seems to be on the upswing along with lands, miracles, and delver constantly in top 8. Considering cutting Chandra for the Loam as I think she might be a little too narrow and hard to cast or maybe blood sun, but I'd still rather have blood sun than loam against lands.

[RhoxWarMonk]

Played 4c tonight at our local store, such a great crowd legacy folks are <3. I ended up going 1-1-1, beating Burn (no typo), losing to Nic Fit and drawing against the mirror. The Nic Fit match ended with him winning turn 5, so was quite close; he literally top decked like a champ, while I brainstorm'ed into lands... it happens :laugh:

I tested out the second Badlands over the second Volcanic and really wasn't a fan. Going to switch back to the original/more standard configuration for next week.

I'm going to work a 3rd surgical into the SB, interested in maybe trying out Bitterblossom after reading Chhaam's comments as I find Turbo Depths and Lands both hard matchups. Seems like a good card against their 20/20 shenanigans, though I don't know if I'd board it in against anything else (sans Miracles maybe)...

What does everyone think of the new lists running Preordain over Ponder? Seems like an interesting choice, I've never tested it personally but it's putting up results.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I've been trying preordain over ponder. It's been fine. It takes a little getting used to, but I don't think I have lost a game because of it.

[CptHaddock]

What does everyone think of the new lists running Preordain over Ponder? Seems like an interesting choice, I've never tested it personally but it's putting up results.

You can read the reasoning behind it here (https://snapcardster.com/blog/author/Andreas/page/3/), towards the bottom of the article on the first page. The general idea has been that preordain helps you smooth out the early game and since you already have a very strong late game you're essentially trading off some late game digging power for early game consistency. I've tried both ponder and preordain versions of the deck and they've both been fine. In my honest opinion past the 4 brainstorms, it actually doesn't matter what other cantrips you are running.

[RhoxWarMonk]

You can read the reasoning behind it here (https://snapcardster.com/blog/author/Andreas/page/3/), towards the bottom of the article on the first page. The general idea has been that preordain helps you smooth out the early game and since you already have a very strong late game you're essentially trading off some late game digging power for early game consistency. I've tried both ponder and preordain versions of the deck and they've both been fine. In my honest opinion past the 4 brainstorms, it actually doesn't matter what other cantrips you are running.

Excellent, thank you kindly for the link! Always love to read new stuff for legacy.

[beta]

Given the uptick in moon stompy and turbo depths, how can we adapt to it?

Would playing abrupt decay and thoughtseize in the main help against these decks? Most decks recently are not playing thoughtseize and decay anymore.

One interesting list is BBD’s list at GP Toronto. He plays 3 goyf in the side. I guess it’s good against grixis, stompy and combo decks

[CptHaddock]

Given the uptick in moon stompy and turbo depths, how can we adapt to it?

Would playing abrupt decay and thoughtseize in the main help against these decks? Most decks recently are not playing thoughtseize and decay anymore.

One interesting list is BBD’s list at GP Toronto. He plays 3 goyf in the side. I guess it’s good against grixis, stompy and combo decks

I don't actually think that either of those 2 matchups is that bad. I'd say moon is the worse one since you can very much be hosed by a turn 1 blood moon, and then run into these awkward states where you need to counter multiple things but don't have a blue card to pitch to FoW. For depths i'd recommend adding some number of edict effects, and for dragon stompy i'd recommend some number of blue blasts/hydroblasts in the side with a decay or 2 in the main and praying that you get a turn to fetch -> swamp -> DRS. I think that people cut thoughtseize because the mtgo metagame is very fair, but I think it's still very powerful against miracles and the mirror.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Given the uptick in moon stompy and turbo depths, how can we adapt to it?

Would playing abrupt decay and thoughtseize in the main help against these decks? Most decks recently are not playing thoughtseize and decay anymore.

One interesting list is BBD’s list at GP Toronto. He plays 3 goyf in the side. I guess it’s good against grixis, stompy and combo decks

I play 1 TS and 1 Decay main with a TS in the board. I also play 1-2 blue blasts in the board.

I highly disagree with your statement that Goyf seems good against Grixis. Their Pushes and Y. Peezy make him pretty useless, he can't block delver, he is almost always smaller than an Angler. Bad.

[RhoxWarMonk]

I play 1 TS and 1 Decay main with a TS in the board. I also play 1-2 blue blasts in the board.

I highly disagree with your statement that Goyf seems good against Grixis. Their Pushes and Y. Peezy make him pretty useless, he can't block delver, he is almost always smaller than an Angler. Bad.

Agree with all this, not sure why Goyf would be good against Grixis but certainly a quick clock against combo and can block a lot of high end creatures in most stompy lists.

I keep fluctuating between 1-2 TS main (moving the second to the SB), I just love the card but the life loss is surprisingly relevant and it's rarely a good top deck late. There's a good bit of combo played in my area though (and sadly, a bit of burn /shudder)... I just have the one decay main (none SB) and as much as I find it meh a lot of the time, being uncountable is sometimes very useful and I always want a least SOME way out of blood moon or other various lock pieces. You don't always have that force of will when you need it and having a way out can make or break a game one. I actually play 2 blasts in the board now, because moon decks have become so much more popular and they do double duty against any burn decks I come across (in place of the TS's). It's probably correct to play one TS and 3 Hymns, rather than the 2-2 split, something I may end up going with in the next event.

On another note, is anyone else playing LotLH in the MB?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I do. It's been fine locally.

[RhoxWarMonk]

I do. It's been fine locally.

I find she's been so much better than LotV but I still find a lot of people using the latter (with success), so I'm not sure if I'm simply "doing it wrong" or not?

The other thing I'd love to discuss more is preordain vs ponder. Ponder is definitely the traditional choice but it seems a lot more people are opting for Preordain now and are finding a lot of success with it. Anyone here make the switch yet and if so, thoughts?

[DemolitionColorScheme]

An interesting read on BBD's take on Goyf in the board for Grixis Delver and Chalice matchups:
- http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=14654&writer=Brian+Braun-Duin&articledate=5-24-2018


And then it hit me. It struck me, like a smooth criminal. I lost control of myself and yelled out, “Ach Hans, run. It's the Llurghoyf.” Tarmogoyf isn't a new idea in Four-Color Control; I have seen lists playing the card in the past but for some reason I had completely forgotten, but it seemed like the perfect card to combat Grixis Delver after sideboard.

I sent a message to Brad Nelson at 2 a.m. the night before we left for Toronto, telling him to bring Tarmogoyfs along on the trip.

That worked out pretty well.

I registered three Tarmogoyfs in my sideboard, a threat designed to put pressure on Grixis Delver and Chalice of the Void strategies, and I played against a lot of Grixis Delver and Chalice of the Void strategies. I did not lose to any of them, and Tarmogoyf did a lot of work and surprised a lot of opponents.
Any opinions / experiences with this?

[RhoxWarMonk]

An interesting read on BBD's take on Goyf in the board for Grixis Delver and Chalice matchups:
- http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=14654&writer=Brian+Braun-Duin&articledate=5-24-2018


Any opinions / experiences with this?

Just read the article, I don't have any experience with goyf in this shell but I trust that he playtested the crap out of the Grixis Delver matchup, so his advice holds a lot of weight IMO and it's something I think I'll give a try myself. To be honest, I'm still a little skeptical because I find Grixis tends to go wide and Delvers fly over top but I can absolutely see Goyf being a beating against prison strategies and at least will hold down gurmags and put extra pressure on them in the early game, so it's likely better than some of the alternatives; guess we'll see.

One interesting thing I noticed is that most lists are no longer playing Abrupt Decay... why is that? Both BBD and Lucas Siow opted against running it in the 75 but it's a card I rarely ever consider dropping completely in fear of not being able to answer certain problem permanents like blood moon, for example. I guess Hydroblast does the same thing post board and for only 1 mana, where as getting the green required to cast AD after BM has hit the table is tricky, but it hits more than just BM, including pesky planeswalkers like Liliana. I'd love to hear some opinions on this and see if it's another slot I can squeeze out of the MD.

[NegatorITA]

Just read the article, I don't have any experience with goyf in this shell but I trust that he playtested the crap out of the Grixis Delver matchup, so his advice holds a lot of weight IMO and it's something I think I'll give a try myself. To be honest, I'm still a little skeptical because I find Grixis tends to go wide and Delvers fly over top but I can absolutely see Goyf being a beating against prison strategies and at least will hold down gurmags and put extra pressure on them in the early game, so it's likely better than some of the alternatives; guess we'll see.

One interesting thing I noticed is that most lists are no longer playing Abrupt Decay... why is that? Both BBD and Lucas Siow opted against running it in the 75 but it's a card I rarely ever consider dropping completely in fear of not being able to answer certain problem permanents like blood moon, for example. I guess Hydroblast does the same thing post board and for only 1 mana, where as getting the green required to cast AD after BM has hit the table is tricky, but it hits more than just BM, including pesky planeswalkers like Liliana. I'd love to hear some opinions on this and see if it's another slot I can squeeze out of the MD.

let's see:
Hydroblast/BeB take care of: young pyromancer, burn spells, moon, chandra, kolaghan, past in flames, burning wish and sneak attack... quite the numbers for a "shitty" sideboard card.
Reb/Pyroblast deal with BTB (which is the primary hate seems in fair events/online along with moon),Counterbalance,True name, show and tell, manipulate fate, leovold, delvers, ancestral visions, jace, the usual blue good spells

Now, let's all brainstorming : what's left out that are dangerous for us?

Rest in peace - which is currently not so widely played due of BR Reanimator being too fast for it to be effective.
Humility - rarely played, we can still win with PW out of it.
aluren - not so wisely played, don't have experience, but decay don't it it aluren anyway.
food chain - food griffin is so ahead of us personally, that here decay DO matters a lot, but how many food griffin are played out there? and still 1 or 2 may not help.
Counterbalance - without top isn't impossible to reb it away, but if it were to be everywhere, some decay could help, it's not everywhere btw)
gurmag/nemesi - decay doesn't help
new karn - decay doesn't help
liliana the last hope - here decay helps but:

If you see the new list all run 3/4 snap 3+ bolt: these should do the trick both vs liliana AND gurmag, while even offering some kind of reach for TNN (because yep, without equipment, hello triple kolaghan) nemesis shouldn't put up a fast race (shouldn't, in reality WE don't have a fast race, so...)

What really concern me, is that they all dumped every kind of extra thoughtseize, really nobody plays combo at gps?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

He said himself it surprised many of the relevant opponents to see Goyf. My suspicion is that boarding plans and even gameplay changes somewhat if SB Goyfs become an actual plan and the strategy fails. I'm not saying don't do it in a regional or larger event, because if your opponents don't expect it, as BBD's example shows, it's strong; but as sticking them in the board insinuates-it needs to be a surprise.

[DemolitionColorScheme]

So, in regards to the Goyfs:
I went to the Dutch Open Series today and jammed 3 Goyf in the SB as of yesterday (after some playtesting) and while I wasn't paired versus any Delver-variants, I did encounter 3 Chalice-'n-stuff decks and every time I boarded in the Goyfs they were a severe beating for them. It basically just becomes "protect the Goyf(s) and ride it / them to victory" and I was actually really pleased with 'em in those matchups. Ancient Tombs + getting rid of a few opposing artifacts and PWs makes for a rather large Goyf early on and quite the clock. Chalice decks that are being pressured and are on the backfoot often just ... well, lose.

In playtesting versus Grixis and UR Delver, they were spectacular as well; not only as a wall for Swiftspears, Gurmags and groundtroups, but as an offensive tool as well. Being able to close out games fast is at times just really nice. I wouldn't board them in versus stuff like BUG Delver or BUG Leovold due to Push.

I boarded them in versus Storm as well since Strix is so dead in that matchup, outside of the (expensive) cantrip and FoW-pitch, and there they did fine as well.

In regards to Abrupt Decay:


One interesting thing I noticed is that most lists are no longer playing Abrupt Decay... why is that? Both BBD and Lucas Siow opted against running it in the 75 but it's a card I rarely ever consider dropping completely in fear of not being able to answer certain problem permanents like blood moon, for example. I guess Hydroblast does the same thing post board and for only 1 mana, where as getting the green required to cast AD after BM has hit the table is tricky, but it hits more than just BM, including pesky planeswalkers like Liliana. I'd love to hear some opinions on this and see if it's another slot I can squeeze out of the MD.
This is something that's been on my mind as well as of late. I've always ran with 1 Decay in the main (2 K-Command in the main next to it) and 1 in the side (before the Goyf-switch). I dunno, I'm on the fence about it. The downside of Decay at times is that it's B/G which at times can be slightly awkward, but we also know that in Legacy especially, a 1 mana difference is rather huge and it being uncounterable does come up in the matches where it stays in, like vs. the mirror (and BUG / Grixis variants), Miracles, Infect, etc.

K-Command and Abrupt Decay do overlap in the artifact department, but here the 1 mana difference can be huge when being on the play, dropping a land -> DRS / Ponder, them dropping a Tomb + Chalice and you being able to Abrupt Decay immediately and then fire off another DRS / Ponder / BS / TS or keeping DRS-mana open to Push / Bolt / Blast a Magus, for example. Granted, this does depend on different factors, since K-Command would be way better when they try to resolve a Magus and you just blast the Chalice + Magus, considering you have a DRS out and a fetch in the GY.

Things Abrupt Decay does hit, K-Command doesn't, and are rather relevant:
Sylvan Library, Exploration / Manabond, Molten Vortex, Blood Moon, RiP (not really a thing anymore, very true), Bitterblossom, Lili's, Back to Basics, Suppression Field, random jank 1-3CMC enchantments (did win me a game today, getting a Leovold trigger and drawing into Decay), etc.

Things Abrupt Decay hits but stuff like Pyroblast hit as well, but where the uncounterable portion of Decay actually comes up in regards to matchups:
Counterbalance, Search, Back to Basics.

Now, in terms of it being a maindeck thing and 2CMC:
It does get rid of stuff on turn two, like a resolved YP, DRS, Delver, Thalia (with a DRS out); basically, any threat. Vs Delver it isn't even that bad that it's not that cheap and hyper-efficient, the uncounterable part actually lines up with us not having to play around Daze. Granted, I do always board it out vs Grixis and UR Delver.

So, well - I'm not sure. Sometimes I'm staring at an early K-Command vs Delver and it feels so ... far away.



What really concern me, is that they all dumped every kind of extra thoughtseize, really nobody plays combo at gps?
This I agree on! I still run 2 TS main (next to 3 Hymn) and it feels really bold not running TS in the 75, but I do have to say - they basically always come out vs the non-combo matchups, since I don't feel it's necessarily where we want to be. Besides the G1 info I gather with it, it never feels ridiculously powerful in Legacy, even though it's a fantastic card.

-------------------------

This is the current list I'm running:
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Verdant Catacombs

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Abrupt Decay

4 Ponder
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge

SB:
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
1 Hydroblast
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Marsh Casualties
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Sylvan Library
3 Tarmogoyf

[Misersoneof]

Hey everyone,

It's been a while since I've come back to this thread and it seems like there has been some real good discussion going on. I've gotten caught up on BBD's article and I can't say that I disagree with his conclusions, I am sad to say however that I don't own any goyfs so I will not be able to play with his proposed SB package.

But, I have been thinking really hard about the meta and while some of you have been moving more and more into green cards, I've been looking at eliminating them all together.

My current list runs a single Trop, switches leovolds for TNNs, doubles the basics count and runs 3 moons in the board. My reasoning has been that for any deck with a greedy manabase, I can moon and then counter or remove anything that they can still cast while riding a TNN or Jace to victory. Against decks that run moon or chalice, I have constructed a deck that ignores lock pieces until the crucial turn where I wipe them out and play some threats.

This is my list that I've been tinkering with.

Land (19)
1x Badlands
1x Bloodstained Mire
2x Island
4x Polluted Delta
3x Scalding Tarn
2x Swamp
1x Tropical Island
2x Underground Sea
3x Volcanic Island

Sorcery (9)
3x Hymn to Tourach
4x Preordain
2x Thoughtseize

Instant (16)
4x Brainstorm
2x Diabolic Edict
2x Fatal Push
4x Force of Will
2x Kolaghan's Command
2x Lightning Bolt

Creature (13)
4x Baleful Strix
4x Deathrite Shaman
3x Snapcaster Mage
2x True-Name Nemesis

Planeswalker (3)
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Liliana, the Last Hope

Sideboard (14)
3x Blood Moon
1x Blue Elemental Blast
1x By Force
1x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2x Flusterstorm
1x Pyroblast
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Toxic Deluge

I realize that this is a Grixis Control list and it doesn't necessarily belong in this thread, but I would like input from some of you guys on what I am opening myself up to with this list and the elimination of green. Is there any way to shore up those openings other than reintroducing green to the deck? I guess I'm asking if you guys think I'm going off the reservation with this list and if I should come back to the fold.

As a side note, I have noticed from a lot of the lists being posted seem to have very little in the way of dealing with a quick marit lage. Has the meta moved away from Lands and Turbo Depths or have some of you accepted it as a bad Game 1 match?

[DemolitionColorScheme]

I realize that this is a Grixis Control list and it doesn't necessarily belong in this thread, but I would like input from some of you guys on what I am opening myself up to with this list and the elimination of green. Is there any way to shore up those openings other than reintroducing green to the deck? I guess I'm asking if you guys think I'm going off the reservation with this list and if I should come back to the fold.
For me, personally; I feel all those Grixis and BUG lists are pretty much Pile, but just dropping one of the splashes; either Red or Green. The core and the 2-for-1-mentality is basically the same across all the versions. The upside of the 3-color versions is that they can incorporate more basics and - indeed - Blood Moon or can even add Wasteland.



As a side note, I have noticed from a lot of the lists being posted seem to have very little in the way of dealing with a quick marit lage. Has the meta moved away from Lands and Turbo Depths or have some of you accepted it as a bad Game 1 match?
As far as I know, most lists still run 2 Diabolic Edict in the side or sometimes a 1-off in the main and 1 in the side. I think it depends on how the maindeck is built. 2-mana removal is pretty pricey for Legacy and I just rather have a Deluge in the main at the moment.

As for the Blood Moon tech; I like it! I'd give it a shot. Blood Moon can be backbreaking versus a lot of strategies. We can't get it out on turn 1, but with a DRS, we can slam it on turn 2.

[NegatorITA]

My version would look like:
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
2 Badlands
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Bloodstained Mire


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
3 Kolaghan's Command


4 Ponder
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge

SB:
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
1-2 Hydroblast
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Toxic deluge
2 Surgical Extraction
2-1 Liliana, the Last Hope
0-1 pithing needle
3 Tarmogoyf

Edited the list as I would play that:
Indeed I'd prefer to run two lili in the board over the lybrary (personal tastes) but I'm afraid of having only one BeB effect when it hits to much stuffs lately... also two lili can still be a bit overkill with the three goyf... even if they are grindy powerful tools

[CarlosTiberioJr]

As we have almost the same core for maindeck now, wouldn't be nice to have some sideboard plan (at least what isn't so good to remove from deck) for the most common matchups on legacy ?

[DemolitionColorScheme]

As we have almost the same core for maindeck now, wouldn't be nice to have some sideboard plan (at least what isn't so good to remove from deck) for the most common matchups on legacy ?
Yeah, that would definitely be nice! I'd be interested seeing how other people board seeing as there are definitely viable different boarding plans.

[NegatorITA]

Yeah, that would definitely be nice! I'd be interested seeing how other people board seeing as there are definitely viable different boarding plans.

Mmmm with the new decklist I'm unsure how to side in properly the goyf, but here is what I'd go for: (updated list and updated sideboard)
def need some suggestion/feed back vs grixis and miracle eh, I know everyone has different concepts, like cutting force or not cutting them ever.

1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
2 Badlands
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Bloodstained Mire


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana, the last hope

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
3 Kolaghan's Command


4 Preordain
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge

SB:
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Hydroblast
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Toxic deluge
2 Surgical Extraction
1 pithing needle / surgical extraction / thoughtseize
3 Tarmogoyf[/QUOTE]
[/SPOILER]

The needle slot is still under judgment, I guess we can call it a meta call, needle should help vs walker/depths/wasteland.deck maybe even artifact. deck (voltaic key? ballista?) but TS help more vs all combos and SE vs BR/dredge, can be replaced obv with spellbomb or cage if your deck need more GY hate

vs storm
- 4 strix
- 2 push
- 1 jace
- 1 liliana, the last hope
- 1 kolaghan's command

+ 2 surgical
+ 2 reb
+ 2 beb
+ 2 flusterstorm
+ 1 toxic deluge

debating if I should now remove ALL the kolaghan + jace in order to slam in the tripe goyf


VS BR reanimator
I wish I have more GY hate to begin with, surely if meta is GY infested I'd run a third surgical over needle.

- 2 push
+ 2 edicts
- 3 tourach
+ 2 surgical + 1 needle (or triple surgical)
- 3 kolaghan - 1 liliana
+ 2 flusterstorm + 2 blue elemental blast

Oddly I've not played against BR with 4c much, but that's my plan: I want to avoid him discarding cards he may like, and I go with all the help I can get, because fluster is half decent, and BeB only hit loothing/stronghold, but it may still be good targets


VS Grixis Delver
- 4 force
+ 2 reb + 2 beb
- 3 tourach
+ 3 tarmogoyf
- 2 jace - 1 thoughtseize
+2 flusterstorm +1 toxic deluge

Unsure here if I side in correctly, I play against the best legacy deck not so much and I'm unsure since the side is "new"

VS Show and tell
- 2 push
- 2 bolt
- 1 deluge
+ 2 beb + 2 reb + 1 needle
- 1 liliana - 3 kolaghan
+ 2 flusterstorm + 2 surgical extraction
- 4 strix
+ 2 edicts + 2 goyf

Not totally sure here either if I should slam in some goyf or not, strix can still keep in check a needled griselshit after all... and diabolic edict works only at times, so here is what I'd try, unsure though.

VS Blood moon stompy
- 4 strix
+3 goyf + 1 needle
- 2 fatal push
+ 2 beb

VS Bug shardless/control
- 4 force
+ 2 reb +2 fluster
-1 thoughtsize
+ 1 deluge

Can also meddle with tourach/push/edicts but depends on the opponent list or if I'm on the draw/play

Vs Mirror
- 4 force
- 1 thoutseize
- 1 deluge

+2 beb +2 reb + 2 fluster

can also move some tourach for removal if expeting angler and or if I'm on the draw/play.


VS miracle
- 1 thoughtseize/kolaghan
+1 needle
- 4 strix
+ 2 flusterstorm + 2 reb

here I definitely need some suggestion vs miracle, but that's how I go, strix cantrip but doesn't really do nothing vs mentor and it's slow vs PW, force is still good because going in late we need to stop their powerful spells. Thoughtseize should be cut on the draw and kolaghan on the play but maybe it's fine to always cut the command instead.

Vs food griffin

I think we should side in Tarmogoyf, because fast clock and discard is usually how I beat them (when I was running angler and double thougtseize and one or two decay=)
really, need suggestions here though since with that list I think we are even less favored (no decay at all hurts, needle should really be another TS)
Def we need reb/fluster to counter their manipulate fate though.

[DemolitionColorScheme]

I'll add my sideboard-planning vs. the field.


My current list:
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Verdant Catacombs

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Abrupt Decay

4 Ponder
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge

SB:
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
1 Hydroblast
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Marsh Casualties
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Sylvan Library
3 Tarmogoyf

vs Grixis Delver:

OTP:
-4 FoW
-2 Thoughtseize
-1 Abrupt Decay
-1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

+3 Goyf
+2 Pyroblast
+1 Hydroblast / +1 Flusterstorm
+1 Liliana, the Last Hope
+1 Marsh Casualties

OTD:
-4 FoW
-2 Thoughtseize
-1 Abrupt Decay
-2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

+3 Goyf
+2 Pyroblast
+1 Hydroblast / +1 Flusterstorm
+1 Liliana, the Last Hope
+1 Marsh Casualties
+1 Flusterstorm

I wouldn't board out Hymn here. Being pro-active vs Delver is pretty good. There's a case for going down -1 Hymn and keeping in 1 Jace on the draw or replacing that with an Edict.

-------------

vs Ant:
-2 Fatal Push
-2 Lightning Bolt
-1 Abrupt Decay
-3 Strix
-1 Toxic Deluge

+2 Flusterstorm
+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Pyroblast
+3 Goyf

vs TES:
-2 Fatal Push
-2 Lightning Bolt
-1 Abrupt Decay
-4 Strix
-2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

+2 Flusterstorm
+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Pyroblast
+1 Hydroblast
+1 Marsh Casualties
+3 Goyf

-------------

vs Mono Red Prison:

OTP:
-1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
-1 Ponder
-3 Hymn to Tourach

+3 Goyf
+1 Hydroblast
+1 Liliana, the Last Hope

OTD:
-2 Thoughtseize
-2 Hymn to Tourach
-1 Ponder

+3 Goyf
+1 Hydroblast
+1 Liliana, the Last Hope

Sylvan Library could come in here, but is a bitch when a Blood Moon / Magus does resolve and you can't crack your fetches to shuffle. I wouldn't board out your Pushes here, since they can be an answer to their creature base. Even if you can't fetch to activate Revolt, blocking with a DRS still gives you a trigger. Same goes for Strix. It's something that can get under Chalice most of the times, does cantrip and can block a Magus / Rabblemaster / Orge. There's something to be said for keeping 2 Thoughtseize on the play, though.

-------------

vs Stompy / MUD / Big Eldrazi / Cloud:

OTP:
-2 Fatal Push
-1 Ponder
-2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

+3 Goyf
+2 Edict

OTD:
-2 Fatal Push
-2 Thoughtseize
-1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

+3 Goyf
+2 Edict

Lightning Bolt still deals with Lodestone Golem, Metalworker and can shoot Planeswalkers and such.

-------------

vs UWR Miracles (non Mentor):
-2 Fatal Push
-1 Thoughtseize
-1 Volcanic Island
-1 Strix

+2 Pyroblast
+1 Hydroblast
+1 Liliana, the Last Hope
+1 Sylvan Library

vs UWR Miracles w/ Mentor:
-1 Volcanic Island
-1 Strix
-1 Thoughtseize
-1 FoW
-1 Fatal Push

+2 Pyroblast
+1 Hydroblast
+1 Liliana, the Last Hope
+1 Sylvan Library

We're pretty much forced to keep in Deluge for a Mentor that's running wild. Liliana and Library are a pretty big deal in this matchup. Hymn and K-Command are great here as well. These games will go long and I feel FoW is pretty mandatory, since they do have some permanents which we want to fight over and 2-for-1-ing ourselves while being able to make up for that with Hymn, K-Command, Lili, Snap, Strix and Library is okay. Gideon is really problematic for us, for instance.

-------------

Turbo Depths:
-2 Fatal Push
-1 Toxic Deluge
-2 K-Command
-1 Ponder

+2 Edict
+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Flusterstorm

I feel this matchup is truly abysmal. This basically comes down to Strix-block and bounce with Jace, or Edict and then Surgical-ing their Depths. Bolts need to stay in to get rid of things like Dryad Arbor, Safekeeper or an extra Hexmage that's being played to keep them safe from Edict. Sometimes you can get lucky with Hymn-ing their Depths and then Surgical-ing it. Abrupt Decay stays in for Library, Expedition Map and Needle.

Slow Depths:

OTP:
-2 K-Command
-1 Abrupt Decay
-2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
-1 Ponder

+2 Edict
+1 Marsh Casualties
+1 Liliana, the Last Hope
+2 Surgical Extraction

OTD:
-1 Thoughtseize
-1 K-Command
-1 Abrupt Decay
-2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
-1 Ponder

+2 Edict
+1 Marsh Casualties
+1 Liliana, the Last Hope
+2 Surgical Extraction

Basically the same matchup, but it's even harder since they bring a ton of creatures to the matchup which we do need removal for. I don't think we can rely on Strix-block + Jace-bounce, but I'd like to hear different perspectives on this matchup.

-------------

I don't have enough time to finish this now, but will pick this up later!

[NegatorITA]

was playtesting tonight and wasn't impressed by tarmo vs tes, it didn't really matter this much
Food chain still proves to be a terrible match up if I don't have any decay
I think in my meta there are too much combo for running a goyf list :/

[Secretly.A.Bee]

It's (Tarmogoyf's) inclusion is predicated upon being strong versus combo and tempo because of the fast clock it represents early on; this gives the opponent the ultimatum of deal with it or die. Having said that, tes is a very fast deck. It's a whole turn faster (sometimes more) than ANT, and sometimes there's nothing that can get underneath it, and that includes a single Force of Will. It's just fast.

[DemolitionColorScheme]

It's (Tarmogoyf's) inclusion is predicated upon being strong versus combo and tempo because of the fast clock it represents early on; this gives the opponent the ultimatum of deal with it or die. Having said that, tes is a very fast deck. It's a whole turn faster (sometimes more) than ANT, and sometimes there's nothing that can get underneath it, and that includes a single Force of Will. It's just fast.
Indeed. And I think having the potential to increase the clock with a Goyf while Hymning and Thoughtseizing does more than Strix's would in that matchup.

[NegatorITA]

Indeed. And I think having the potential to increase the clock with a Goyf while Hymning and Thoughtseizing does more than Strix's would in that matchup.
Indeed I was surprised how much more fast then Ant is, Usually only ant is played around here but my buddy just got TES and we both wanted to test.

I may just make some fix here and there on your list ( mainly playing Golgari charm over Marsh) and try.
Still not a fan of library, would rather have a second Lili/Chandra/combo hate card personally

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Still not a fan of library, would rather have a second Lili/Chandra/combo hate card personally

How often do you play the mirror? It's very good there imo. If I were you I would try the 1B sorcery that draws you 2 cards and loses you two life. It's like a tempo version of Library that allows you to Snapcaster for extra draws. Plus, you get 4 cards for 4 life that way rather than 4 life for 1 card. You lose the filter, but gain a little flexibility.

[NegatorITA]

How often do you play the mirror? It's very good there imo. If I were you I would try the 1B sorcery that draws you 2 cards and loses you two life. It's like a tempo version of Library that allows you to Snapcaster for extra draws. Plus, you get 4 cards for 4 life that way rather than 4 life for 1 card. You lose the filter, but gain a little flexibility.

this
I've already tryed the Night's whisper/Painful truth and Library slot:
they are all great in the mirror/control/bug/jund/D&T match up, just I'm often stuck playing vs
dredge
ant
tes
S&T
aluren
Food chain
burn
moon stompy

:really:

[mcnealstash]

How worth it is the red splash in 4 color? I've seen a few BUG lists that drop red so that they can pick up some number of wasteland, and are usually running some amount of TNN. Is picking up a few k commands and bolts really worth stretching the mana base for?

[phg22]

People have been doing it to success for over a year, so obviously yes.

[mcnealstash]

People have been doing it to success for over a year, so obviously yes.

But people have also just ran straight sultai colors like Jeremy Dezani did and got second @ GP Seattle in April. I think that if the meta shifts to really hate on 4 color- aka more chalice and blood moon decks, is there some merit to switching to a slightly less greedy mana base while also picking up wasteland ourselves to deal with decks that are running ancient tomb and city of traitors?
The format seems like it's turn into basically the "fair decks": 4 color and grixis delver, and the turn 1 chalice decks (dragon stompy, eldrazi, affinity). Many of the unfair combo decks aside from turbo depths are kind of on the outside looking in at the moment (sneak and show, reanimator, LED storm, etc.).

[Secretly.A.Bee]

There are arguments on both sides. I prefer the red as I am also a DnT player and I know that the red version is a lot better (imo) against DnT and therefore is what I play. I hate losing to something I have an intimate knowledge of.

[kramer733]

How does stoneblade defeat czech pile? What is czech pile's weakness?

[MorphBerlin]

How does stoneblade defeat czech pile? What is czech pile's weakness?

All these "Grindy" MU come down to two things: Cardadvantage or unanswerble threats (TNN).

[MorphBerlin]

But people have also just ran straight sultai colors like Jeremy Dezani did and got second @ GP Seattle in April. I think that if the meta shifts to really hate on 4 color- aka more chalice and blood moon decks, is there some merit to switching to a slightly less greedy mana base while also picking up wasteland ourselves to deal with decks that are running ancient tomb and city of traitors?
The format seems like it's turn into basically the "fair decks": 4 color and grixis delver, and the turn 1 chalice decks (dragon stompy, eldrazi, affinity). Many of the unfair combo decks aside from turbo depths are kind of on the outside looking in at the moment (sneak and show, reanimator, LED storm, etc.).

You think wastelands will help your Moon stompy MU? I highly doubt that.

Tbh I don't think moving to Grixis or Sultai wll improve your resillance against blood moon that much. It's the turn 1 or 3 Moons that get you, and all 3 Variants are bad against that. Removing a color is more for wasteland decks imo.

[mcnealstash]

You think wastelands will help your Moon stompy MU? I highly doubt that.

Tbh I don't think moving to Grixis or Sultai wll improve your resillance against blood moon that much. It's the turn 1 or 3 Moons that get you, and all 3 Variants are bad against that. Removing a color is more for wasteland decks imo.

Keeping them off of 3 or 4 mana for even a single turn can be the difference between winning and losing. Obviously a turn 1 moon without FoW is probably going to be a loss regardless of what variant your on. But let's assume we have force for their turn 1 moon and we wasteland their city of traitors or ancient tomb. Oftentimes this will keep them off of their threats for a couple of turns, allowing us to set up our turns, maybe cast a hymn to tourach or thoughtseize, etc.. I just have seen more and more people trimming bolts and k commands recently- I saw a list that 5-0'd that had literally 2 k command and 1 bolt. At this point, I'm thinking, why bother with red? Is it really that much more worth it to open ourselves up to wasteland while not being able to play it ourselves. Yes k command is a grindy element of the deck and can be a 2 for 1, but dropping 2 slots for something like another abrupt decay or a single liliana, the last hope doesn't really seem that bad at all if our deck's mana gets tightened up a little bit. A lot of the sultai decks run TNN- but you could even drop these cards (if you're worried about people sb teching marsh casualties, deluge, or edict) for a toxic deluge and a card like a singleton tireless tracker as another card advantage engine (DRS ramping into a tireless tracker to get 2 clues is gas). A lot more 12 post lists are popping up online because people recognize that it dookies on 4 color control- wasteland shines in this matchup as well.

Basically my point is you're sacrificing relatively minimal power to make the deck slightly cleaner going sultai. I ported to legacy pretty recently from modern, and things seem more stagnant here- 4 color is great, it puts up great results and I can't deny it's a great deck, but I do question things when people just netdeck and use boiler plate lists vs. test on their own and actually figure out what is best vs. an entire format that is adapting to beat them (aka lots of chalice and blood moon). 4 color has made itself known and people are out to beat it now. I know that Andrea Mengucci, for instance, prefers straight sultai leovold compared to 4 color for a lot of the reasons I mentioned above. Dezani, one of Mengucci's friends, took his advice and put up a solid result at one of the largest legacy events of the year, yet people don't talk about this deck at all.

[Stryfo]

While I’m not saying your conclusion of BUG vs. 4c is incorrect, because most evidence at this point is likely anecdotal from either side, I don’t think you’re looking at the deck holistically enough. Specifically, red offers blasts, and missing out on those by playing BUG is a real downside, whether that’s enough of a reason to choose 4c over BUG is a real discussion, but I don’t think the answer is clear at this point.

[HSCK]

4 Color has been a better performer overall than BUG. The newer versions of 4 Color with 5 one mana removal spells and 3 Kommand are just so much more efficient than Sultai is.

[XR_TRON]

4 Color has been a better performer overall than BUG. The newer versions of 4 Color with 5 one mana removal spells and 3 Kommand are just so much more efficient than Sultai is.

^ This, the Lightning Bolts are versatile acting as more removal and rarely a slightly faster clock. The access to Pyroblast/Red Elemental Blast also can't be understated. Also, Kolaghan's Command is a hell of a card and sometimes does work against moon decks. :-)

[Misersoneof]

I've been looking at eliminating a color from Czech Pile for a while now in order to run more basics for the recent blood moon heavy meta. From what I've learned, green has access to more efficient threats but less efficient removal. Red on the other hand has very efficient removal but it's threats aren't.

The cards that green gives Pile access to are Leovold, Abrupt Decay, Sylvan Library and (most recently) Goyf. These permanents are cheap, powerful and require an answer from the opponent. Abrupt Decay is good at answering a lot of popular permanents (including those just mentioned) and has the added benefit of being uncountable. But it's drawback is that it cannot hit anything over 3 cmc, it requires 2 mana to cast and is color intensive. This makes it powerful but very inefficient. Maelstrom Pulse also has the same problem in that it is mana intensive and color intensive. What you gain in the ability to target ANY nonland permanent, you lose in being able to be countered. Rarely will it hit 2 permanents.

Red removal on the other hand is incredibly efficient. As mentioned above, Red provides us with Bolt, K Command and Pyroblast/REB. Bolt is probably the strongest removal spell ever printed and its continued use in pretty much every eternal format out there is a testament to it. It kills creatures, planeswalkers and players alike and does so for 1 single mana. K Command is also mana and color intensive, but it's incredibly flexible. It's almost always a 2 for 1 and functions as removal, card advantage and is powerful in a top deck war. Pyroblasts/REBs are also efficient but are extremely situational. They can act as removal or counter for single mana but only if you are playing against a Blue Mage, which is why they tend to be strictly sideboard material.

I'm not going to go into red's permanents here because we all know that this deck doesn't run any and this post is already too long.

The last thing to think about is what kind of deck you are trying to make. Czech Pile is a control deck, which means that above all else, it wants to run answers to problems, not threats that need to be answered. This is why the archetypes are typically called "Grixis Control" and "Sultai Midrange".

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I saw a list that used 2x Goblin Rabblemasters, has anyone else tried that? I don't like the Goyf option to be completely honest. I own them, but I dislike them in this deck.

I'm not interested in dropping red.

[MorphBerlin]

You will never cut green from 4C because you need one green dual for DRS anyway, so we are talking about forfeiting the use of incredibly powerful cards like Leovold, Decay, Sylvan, G.Charm for cutting one dual? The opportunity cost for running that additional dual is close to zero. If you want to play the grixis colors you should go into the y.pyro+therapy deck, but that is just a worse version of grixis delver imo.

You can cut red, thats why you see bug control with at least a little success. You can replace everything but Blasts, but you loose some efficiency. You get more basics and the ability to run wastelands which help some MUs (Lands, Depths, etc)

[Secretly.A.Bee]

You will never cut green from 4C because you need one green dual for DRS anyway, so we are talking about forfeiting the use of incredibly powerful cards like Leovold, Decay, Sylvan, G.Charm for cutting one dual? The opportunity cost for running that additional dual is close to zero. If you want to play the grixis colors you should go into the y.pyro+therapy deck, but that is just a worse version of grixis delver imo.

You can cut red, thats why you see bug control with at least a little success. You can replace everything but Blasts, but you loose some efficiency. You get more basics and the ability to run wastelands which help some MUs (Lands, Depths, etc)If you were responding to me, you are mistaken, as I don't want to drop green. I think all 4 colors are absolutely necessary.

[MorphBerlin]

If you were responding to me, you are mistaken, as I don't want to drop green. I think all 4 colors are absolutely necessary.

No I was just explaining why cutting green from 4C isn't worth thinking about unless you make a totally different deck.

Cutting Red is possible on the other hand but I agree that playing 4C is better overall

[Misersoneof]

No I was just explaining why cutting green from 4C isn't worth thinking about unless you make a totally different deck.

Cutting Red is possible on the other hand but I agree that playing 4C is better overall

Maybe you are referring to me?

Currently I have been 'cutting green' by getting rid of all of the cards that can only be cast with green mana. I still run a trop in order for deathrite activations but I have been considering cutting it. The deck that I have been working on looks like this:


Land (19)
1x Badlands
1x Bloodstained Mire
2x Island
4x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Swamp
1x Tropical Island
2x Underground Sea
2x Volcanic Island

Sorcery (9)
3x Hymn to Tourach
4x Preordain
2x Thoughtseize

Instant (16)
4x Brainstorm
1x Dead // Gone
1x Diabolic Edict
2x Fatal Push
4x Force of Will
2x Kolaghan's Command
2x Lightning Bolt

Creature (13)
4x Baleful Strix
4x Deathrite Shaman
3x Snapcaster Mage
2x True-Name Nemesis

Planeswalker (3)
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Liliana, the Last Hope

Sideboard (14)
3x Blood Moon
1x Blue Elemental Blast
1x By Force
1x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2x Flusterstorm
1x Pyroblast
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Toxic Deluge


The point of it is to take the Baleful Strix, K Command, Hymn shell of Pile and eliminate the "Green Cards" in order to have a more stable manabase for Blood Moon in the side while keeping the amount of 1 drops low for chalice. While I haven't been doing extensive testing against delver, I have been testing it against Mono Red Stompy and Eldrazi decks and it has been doing fairly well.

The "Young Pyromancer Cabal Therapy" list that you may be referring to is a deck championed by Wilson Hunter of The Brainstorm Show podcast fame. This is indeed a different deck from Pile as his game plan is different. His deck looks like this:


Land (18)
1x Badlands
1x Bloodstained Mire
2x Island
1x Mountain
4x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Swamp
1x Tropical Island
2x Underground Sea
1x Volcanic Island

Planeswalker (1)
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Instant (17)
4x Brainstorm
1x Counterspell
2x Diabolic Edict
2x Fatal Push
4x Force of Will
1x Kolaghan's Command
3x Lightning Bolt

Sorcery (13)
3x Cabal Therapy
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Ponder
2x Thoughtseize

Creature (11)
4x Deathrite Shaman
2x Gurmag Angler
2x Snapcaster Mage
3x Young Pyromancer

Sideboard (15)
3x Blood Moon
1x Cabal Therapy
2x Collective Brutality
2x Dead // Gone
2x Pyroblast
3x Surgical Extraction
2x Toxic Deluge


Source (http://www.starcitygames.com/articles/37143_The-Unsung-Legacy-Tech.html)

While I have been testing this deck too, some things I don't like about it are the basic mountain over the second swamp, the fact that he runs Dead // Gone in his SB instead of main and the fact that he is really 1 drop heavy which can't survive with Chalice on 1. Despite my feelings on the deck, he has been putting up some strong results with it as he Top 16'd at a recent GP. The bottom line however is that this deck is a control deck.


I saw a list that used 2x Goblin Rabblemasters, has anyone else tried that? I don't like the Goyf option to be completely honest. I own them, but I dislike them in this deck.

I'm not interested in dropping red.

Rabblemaster is an interesting choice. He is an army in a can but I don't like the idea that if your opponent has a deathrite your token dies anyway. I have been playing with the idea of running Young Pyromancers in my build instead of the TNN but with the lack of 1 drops, I don't think my deck can take full advantage of the token production.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Young Pyromancer is not a card I like in this shell, either. I think if I wanted to play with it I would just play Grixis Delver or something Mardu. I don't know if I agree with your single point summary of Rabblemaster, as opposing DRS are an issue anyway, and I try to deal with them as soon as I get the opportunity. I'm more concerned about room and how it differs in use from TNN, and whether or not it fills a need and if that is really better than what TNN does. I only play 12 creatures and really need a good argument to make me want to change it. The reason I am interested in this is because once in a while, another win condition would help, but it has to be good enough.

Edit: I really wish Squee, the Immortal wasn't 1(r)(r)...

[RhoxWarMonk]

Young Pyromancer is not a card I like in this shell, either. I think if I wanted to play with it I would just play Grixis Delver or something Mardu. I don't know if I agree with your single point summary of Rabblemaster, as opposing DRS are an issue anyway, and I try to deal with them as soon as I get the opportunity. I'm more concerned about room and how it differs in use from TNN, and whether or not it fills a need and if that is really better than what TNN does. I only play 12 creatures and really need a good argument to make me want to change it. The reason I am interested in this is because once in a while, another win condition would help, but it has to be good enough.

Edit: I really wish Squee, the Immortal wasn't 1(r)(r)...

Have you tried Gurmag Angler? He's pretty solid as a finisher, especially on a lower creature count, where I assume you have more spells than the average list.

In regards to the Wasteland argument, I've been considering cutting a fetch for a singleton -- has anyone experimented with this? Not sure if it's the right call but this deck is all about utility and I find I utilize my 1-ofs (AD, Toxic Deluge, LotLH, etc) reasonably well. I dont think I could cut any basics, they've been so valuable against PoP and Wasteland decks but there's been a number of times that I'd have loved to have a even a single Wasteland to cut off a mana source or to take down a Dark Depths. The deck is too mana intensive to run many (any?) colorless land but I feel it might be something worth considering.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Hmm. I have not. I'm not sure why not, maybe I should.

BBD played a third Jace, any opinions on that? I don't think I want to but it was something I haven't heard of others really trying.

[RhoxWarMonk]

Hmm. I have not. I'm not sure why not, maybe I should.

BBD played a third Jace, any opinions on that? I don't think I want to but it was something I haven't heard of others really trying.

I have not tried the 3rd Jace but I think if I was adding another planeswalker to the MD, it would be a Liliana, the Last Hope over a 3rd Jace. Jace IS awesome, he wins a lot of games but having 2 in your opening hand feels bad... at the same time, it's hard to argue with the results.

What I find interesting is how many people are taking out Thoughtseize altogether, it's a little puzzling to me as it's always been a card I've really liked. Im trying to cut them all now and see how it plays out, I definitely feel Hymn is a better card in this deck since you want to 2 for 1 as much as possible. My suspicion is that having thoughtseize as a singleton is pretty weak because you really want it in your opener compared to late game (usually) and it's generally a very bad top deck (again, usually) - so perhaps cutting them all for other gas is the better approach.

[Misersoneof]

I sympathise with your feelings on Squee. Having a win con that doesn't care about being exiled or killed is incredibly valuable but (r) (r) would require a reassessment of the mana base.

As a former Miracles player, my problem with the 3rd Jace in this deck is the lack of basics. Miracles can comfortably develop mana without fear of wasteland and drop Jace T4 or T5. But if our opponent has a wasteland heavy hand or drops an early blood moon, he becomes just another dead card for pile. The only time in which we want to have 3 Jaces is when we are facing against miracles. For any other deck his only role is to pull ahead if we've managed to stabilise the board or force food.

I feel that Gurmag might be the best option of the recent cards discussed here but only if you are looking at an extremely aggro meta. He's cheap, doesn't die to most forms of removal and can end a game if you can keep your opponent locked down. However he's not very good against Miracles or the mirror. Strix can keep him stymied and swords is bad.

[NegatorITA]

why people play dead // gone when there is far // away assuming it's used to deal with marit lage?I get that far deals two damage to DRS and delver, yet far away pitch to force, in late can be fused and deals with marith lage more efficently
Guess it's the ability to act as pseudo bolt that guarantee its inclusion, but I'm not sold over it.

[Misersoneof]

why people play dead // gone when there is far // away assuming it's used to deal with marit lage?I get that far deals two damage to DRS and delver, yet far away pitch to force, in late can be fused and deals with marith lage more efficently
Guess it's the ability to act as pseudo bolt that guarantee its inclusion, but I'm not sold over it.

You raise an interesting point. I have been trying to find a removal spell that answers Marit Lage, is useful against Delver decks and can get around a chalice on 1. Compared to dead gone, it seems better against blood moon decks and the multiple modes all seem relevant against Marit Lage. Even though it doesn't cleanly answer Deathrite or Young Pyromancer with a couple of tokens, if it resolves against a delver deck it could set them back on Tempo long enough to make it to the end game.

[NegatorITA]

You raise an interesting point. I have been trying to find a removal spell that answers Marit Lage, is useful against Delver decks and can get around a chalice on 1. Compared to dead gone, it seems better against blood moon decks and the multiple modes all seem relevant against Marit Lage. Even though it doesn't cleanly answer Deathrite or Young Pyromancer with a couple of tokens, if it resolves against a delver deck it could set them back on Tempo long enough to make it to the end game.

I also think that there are different approach to the deck:
I keep seing these list without TS, but these cleary seems tuned toward a metagame where there is not much combo:
my tes buddy can ramp over me with these list, but, magic
I switched two cards with two thoughtseize, and last night I was winning like 8 match over 10 (mind you, I always had good to decent hands, but, these cards do make the difference)
Now, in my local meta there isn't any marit lage, but there are a few in the milan metagame I'm going to swim into the incoming week.
There are also miracle, grixis control, moon stompy, eldrazi, BIG eldrazi and some BR, surely there will be some show and tell, some grixis delver (or maybe, actually MORE) some bug control for sure and bug delver as well:
A true open field on the level of a SCG open or classic or whatever you have.
So I'm pretty thorn atm about what to run, considering that there is going to be some quite number of GY based deck, I won't leave home without 3 surgicals.

My current list will look as the following:


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest


4 Force of Will
2 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to tourach

4 Brainstorm
4 Preordain

2 Fatal Push
3 Kolaghan's Command
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Toxic deluge

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou
2 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
3 bloodstained mire
3 Scalding Tarn


SideboarD
1 hydroblast
1 blue elemental blast
1 red elemental blast
1 pyroblast
2 flusterstorm
3 surgical extraction
2 diabolic edict
1 golgari charm
1 abrupt decay
1 liliana, the last hope
1 toxic deluge



I wonder if in such an open meta would be wiser to move the lili main deck over one toxic deluge.
Also would like to fin it a third edict (or another solution of the mentioned before) but I can't see myself cutting anything if not again one thoughtseize (or maybe the lone decay)
decay & golgari charm though help vs the random food chains (which aren't really so random here), and are really two marvelous catch all that cutting them seems so wrong.
Another solution COULD be to cut one kolaghan for a decay maindeck, and voilà, we have the third edict.
But maybe I should focus more into gaining an extra edge AGAIN vs miracle rather than fixing an already difficult match up? (I still belive depths to be a not so easy deck to handle, if they are fast or go big there isn't much we can do)

[phg22]

I see Dead / Gone as a bolt that kills Marit Lage. While the ability to kill the 20/20 is important, making out deck worse overall to do so is not advisable. Since we care very little about the face damage and most creatures that die to bolt also die to shock, Dead / Gone is a clean answer to Lage that's still very efficient when I just want to 1 for 1 removal everything.

[Misersoneof]

I see Dead / Gone as a bolt that kills Marit Lage. While the ability to kill the 20/20 is important, making out deck worse overall to do so is not advisable. Since we care very little about the face damage and most creatures that die to bolt also die to shock, Dead / Gone is a clean answer to Lage that's still very efficient when I just want to 1 for 1 removal everything.

I'm trying to understand the intent of this comment. Are you saying that running Dead // Gone is making the deck worse overall or is this a comment on some of the above alternatives like Far // Away? Tomorrow I am going to a local Legacy Tournament and I am thinking about cutting one of my two bolts for a Dead // Gone in addition to running an Engineered Explosives somewhere in my 75 as a catch all removal and or sweeper.

[beta]

Been playing miracles quite a lot in my LGS of late and have been losing quite a lot of times as well. What is the generic gameplan we have against them? It seems that our creatures are usually too slow and gets mopped up by their removals. Once they land counterbalance, it is hard to navigate around it (or maybe i am not experienced enough). Command seems lacklustre against them as our creatures will usually get removed or tugged. The way we can win is to hymn and land a jace it seems.

[phg22]

My point is that, while killing Marit Lage is important, we shouldn't be playing cards like Far / Away that are often really bad to do so. Edict is good because is covers TNN and Angler, so without Lage in the format we might still be playing it. Dead / Gone is going to do what Bolt does > 90% of the time anyway, so swapping one in is another reasonable way to cover against Lage.

[Misersoneof]

I see what you're saying now. I agree with your assessment that Dead // Gone is probably the best tool since it swaps well for bolt but still answers Marit Lage. The only think I don't like about it is the fact that it doesn't really do anything against chalice decks except set them back a turn. This is why I've been looking at two mana removal spells that can fill all 3 roles but there doesn't really seem to be one.

Regarding Miracles, I played against it once in the tournament on Saturday and again (different build) in casuals afterwards with my Grixis Control list. I was able to win a majority of games despite not having access to Abrupt DK or Leovold. My basic plan was to keep a creature in play and continually chip away at their life total while also attacking their hand as much as possible.

Post board I took out 4 strix, 1 fatal push (2 if they played angels) and 1 edict and brought in 3 REB, 2 Flusterstorm and 1 extra Lilly TLH. Perhaps instead of the 4 strix, I should've boarded out my 2 Thoughtseize and or my 3 K Commands but my goal with this configuration was rip apart their hand so they couldn't cast or find their answers. This plan seemed to work and despite my opponent having counterbalance or Back to Basics in play, I was able to make those cards irrelevant while they desperately searched for ways to answer my Shamans and snapcasters.

I'll do a write up of the tournament if people are interested but my list is a little different from standard Czech Pile.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Is new flip-Bolas too cute? I know, it's too cute. But I think I'm going to try it.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I see what you're saying now. I agree with your assessment that Dead // Gone is probably the best tool since it swaps well for bolt but still answers Marit Lage. The only think I don't like about it is the fact that it doesn't really do anything against chalice decks except set them back a turn. This is why I've been looking at two mana removal spells that can fill all 3 roles but there doesn't really seem to be one.

Regarding Miracles, I played against it once in the tournament on Saturday and again (different build) in casuals afterwards with my Grixis Control list. I was able to win a majority of games despite not having access to Abrupt DK or Leovold. My basic plan was to keep a creature in play and continually chip away at their life total while also attacking their hand as much as possible.

Post board I took out 4 strix, 1 fatal push (2 if they played angels) and 1 edict and brought in 3 REB, 2 Flusterstorm and 1 extra Lilly TLH. Perhaps instead of the 4 strix, I should've boarded out my 2 Thoughtseize and or my 3 K Commands but my goal with this configuration was rip apart their hand so they couldn't cast or find their answers. This plan seemed to work and despite my opponent having counterbalance or Back to Basics in play, I was able to make those cards irrelevant while they desperately searched for ways to answer my Shamans and snapcasters.

I'll do a write up of the tournament if people are interested but my list is a little different from standard Czech Pile.Just post your list with it to give us context. Would love to read a report. I didn't get to go and I'd love to get an updated feel for the metagame. I've been busy and just can't make an event this year.

Edit: sorry for the double-post

[Misersoneof]

EDIT: So I guess I should've mentioned that this was a local I played in near me. I didn't mean to mislead anyone into thinking that I played at the GP or something. Sorry if that's the case.

My list:

Land (19)
1x Badlands
1x Bloodstained Mire
2x Island
4x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Swamp
1x Tropical Island
2x Underground Sea
2x Volcanic Island

Creature (13)
4x Baleful Strix
4x Deathrite Shaman
2x Gurmag Angler
3x Snapcaster Mage

Instant (16)
4x Brainstorm
1x Diabolic Edict
2x Fatal Push
4x Force of Will
3x Kolaghan's Command
2x Lightning Bolt

Sorcery (9)
2x Hymn to Tourach
4x Preordain
2x Thoughtseize
1x Toxic Deluge

Planeswalker (3)
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Liliana, the Last Hope

Sideboard (15)
2x Blood Moon
1x Blue Elemental Blast
1x By Force
1x Diabolic Edict
2x Flusterstorm
1x Hydroblast
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Pyroblast
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Surgical Extraction


I went into the tournament knowing that I would probably play against bloodmoon stompy, reanimator and miracles so I tuned my board by dropping a hymn for a 3rd K Command and 2 lightning bolt instead of the 1 bolt 1 Dead // Gone split. Turns out I was 100% right.

Round 1 Miracles:
I win the roll and started aggressively with thoughtseize, into thoughtseize deathrite, into snapcaster thoughtseize. By discarding his enablers I was able to keep him from searching for removal. He landed a back to basics but I had some basics in play so I ignored it. I kept attacking and draining and he died.

Game two he landed a counter balance but I already had a deathrite and it has a tough time countering KCommand. I used 2 Commands to burn him and discard and draining whatever he discarded. His balance didn’t counter anything and he died.

Round 2 BR Reanimator

I forgot that this guy's only deck is reanimator. I lose the roll and keep a hand with only 1 deathrite. He announces a chancellor trigger so I lay a land and pass the turn. He combos off and gets a griselbrand into play. He draws 7 but can’t continue so he discards to hand size (none of which were creatures). I see if I can rip an edict which I don’t. I lay second land and cast strix, he takes a moment to remember his trigger and when he does I then scoop em up.

Game 2 was a grind fest.
My T1 deathrite keeps the yard nice and tidy while I drain him for two every turn. Shaman eventually eats a collective brut (pitching Norn) but I have edict, deluge, Force and two strix in play so it’s fine. He takes the force and reanimates Norn going to eight life. I realise he just 2 for 1'd me but I deluge her away. He then proceeds to cast exhume and I let it resolve, draw off the strix trigger which dies to Norn's ability and draw more countermagic. I edict his Norn and then rip angler off the top who wins in 2 turns.
Game 3 I keep a hand with no blue sources but spellbomb and deathrite. It also had a force but no blue card. I scry a blue card to the top. He T1s me by putting in Norn. I kill her but I’m at 1 life and he collective brutality’s for the win. Maybe I shouldn’t have kept that hand but it seemed solid at the time.

Round 3 Moon Stompy

Been waiting for this matchup. I win the roll and keep a solid 7 with 2 basics, deathrite and k command. I drop deathrite and he casts T1 3ball. I proceed to fetch up more basics and pressure him with deathrite and T3 hymn. Eventually I get Lilly and Jace in play and I just plus them both to their ultimates for the win.

Game 2 I keep a normal 6 with a basic or two but a lot of 1 drops. He proceeds to T1 3 ball, T2 chalice, T3 rabblemaster and T4 scab clan beserker. He runs my ass over.

Game 3 is a long one. I keep a Thoughtseize, basic swamp, fetch, Deathrite, Bolt, Ponder and Brainstorm. I TS him and see chalice, 3 ball, spyglass, rabblemaster and 2 mountain. I take rabblemaster and ready myself for the grind. In retrospect, I think I should have taken chalice. That was the biggest problem during the game. He doesn’t get the sol land but gets a second mountain. He drops chalice T2 but I’ve got the deathrite into play. He drops all of the other lock pieces and we play draw go for a while. Eventually he gets a second rabblemaster and I only have the bolt. I decide to go for it anyway and bolt the rabblemaster during his main (paying 3 mana). He picks up the goblin and places it in the yard before remembering the trigger. I offer to let him take it back but he says it’s fine. He knows the rules of a tournament. We then draw go for a while more. He then lands a chandra and my only option is to keep her in check with by attacking with a strix and a deathrite. He kills one of them and we are at a standstill. I rip gurmag and can play him while keeping force mana up (for 3 ball). He chumps the fish with a Magus of the moon next turn and next turn gets a rabble master which I force. He plusses Chandra and gets a bridge. I rip and drop a second angler and pray to top a kCommand. He gets another bridge and I know I only have one out. I tap the deck and peel my singleton By Force. I blow up everything except the spyglass and then swing at Chandra. She dies and he knows it’s over. He extends the hand after another draw phase.

After the tournament I did some testing with a different Miracles player (as I mentioned above). The games were much longer than the one in the tournament but my take away is that I would prefer the second lilly in the board to be a Chandra. Lilly is tough for miracles to deal with but her +1 and -2 doesn't do anything against them. I'd much rather be drawing a card or shocking their face. 2 bolts are definitely better than the 1 bolt, 1 dead // gone split against miracles since bolts can take care of Jace. I probably should have done something to mark the bolt that should have been a dead // gone to more thoroughly test the hypothesis.


On a slightly different note, I have been currently thinking about replacing the last bolt with a sudden shock. The reasoning is that it is 2 mana, which means it doesn't care about chalice, it can hit planeswalkers, it's uncounterable and it also can make sure that your opponent's deathrite can't activate in response.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

EDIT: So I guess I should've mentioned that this was a local I played in near me. I didn't mean to mislead anyone into thinking that I played at the GP or something. Sorry if that's the case.


You didn't, I simply failed to read the post well. My mistake. NBD.

[NegatorITA]

So, Tomas Mar did it again
http://www.ovinotournament.com/ovinospring2018-legacy-main-event/#1472664871402-b107ea74-8fb6
while I like the maindeck, I still can't realize what's the plan vs BR with that kind of sideboard...

[Misersoneof]

So, Tomas Mar did it again
http://www.ovinotournament.com/ovinospring2018-legacy-main-event/#1472664871402-b107ea74-8fb6
while I like the maindeck, I still can't realize what's the plan vs BR with that kind of sideboard...

I don't suppose there is a recording of the Top 8 out there? I'd love to see the finals at least. Anyone have a link?

[mike1987]

So, Tomas Mar did it again
http://www.ovinotournament.com/ovinospring2018-legacy-main-event/#1472664871402-b107ea74-8fb6
while I like the maindeck, I still can't realize what's the plan vs BR with that kind of sideboard...

Thanks for the link. Wish Tomas has an account here so we can bombard him with card and sideboard choices :tongue:

I think the main changes to the deck are the basic lands and the playing of just 3 ponders :eek:

While Tomas is well known for his choice of playing many turn 1 discards, wouldnt it be a terrible top deck from mid-late game, would love to hear you guys' opinions of this as i am just currently playing 3 hymns. And will you board out those turn one discards vs chalice decks?

[Misersoneof]

Thanks for the link. Wish Tomas has an account here so we can bombard him with card and sideboard choices :tongue:

I think the main changes to the deck are the basic lands and the playing of just 3 ponders :eek:

While Tomas is well known for his choice of playing many turn 1 discards, wouldnt it be a terrible top deck from mid-late game, would love to hear you guys' opinions of this as i am just currently playing 3 hymns. And will you board out those turn one discards vs chalice decks?

Does he not normally play an island and a swamp?

My discard package is currently 2 hymn and 2 thoughtseize. Personally I think I could get on board with his discard package. I have had a lot of games where going Turn 1 thoughtseize has kept my 1 drops live. At this stage of the game, I almost always want to see them and I think having Inquisition over TS might be a reasonable switch. My main question is, how useful is the 3rd hymn? I know it's good in a lot of control mirrors but I have a hard time thinking it's worth the slot against stompy or delver. Delver will often times counter it when it's live and stompy only plays things sorcery speed so rarely is it backbreaking.

I could see myself going up on 1 drop discards but I'm not to sure about a 3rd hymn and I definitely don't like going down on ponders.

[DemolitionColorScheme]

Does he not normally play an island and a swamp?
He was actually playing full duals for a while, if I'm not mistaken.


My discard package is currently 2 hymn and 2 thoughtseize. Personally I think I could get on board with his discard package. I have had a lot of games where going Turn 1 thoughtseize has kept my 1 drops live. At this stage of the game, I almost always want to see them and I think having Inquisition over TS might be a reasonable switch. My main question is, how useful is the 3rd hymn? I know it's good in a lot of control mirrors but I have a hard time thinking it's worth the slot against stompy or delver. Delver will often times counter it when it's live and stompy only plays things sorcery speed so rarely is it backbreaking.

I could see myself going up on 1 drop discards but I'm not to sure about a 3rd hymn and I definitely don't like going down on ponders.
I think 3 Hymn is a sweet, sweet spot. Hymn in itself can be a wincon, especially when going Hymn, Snap -> Hymn. It's not just about having too much Hymns; it's about having access to those early Hymns. Sometimes it sucks to draw it in some matchups where hands are depleted, but we play Brainstorm and Jace and sometimes you can still hit stuff when people are topdecking permission (like Blasts and Spellpierces).

I've always played 3 Hymn and 2 Thoughtseize and have recently switched to an extra Bolt, keeping one Thoughtseize - which I was actually thinking of replacing with a 3 K-Command. In the combo matchups, Thoughtseize can be fantastic, but I feel in a lot of matchups, trading 1 for 1 (and losing 2 life) just feels really underwhelming. I do think Tomas' thinking is probably along the lines of being a little more proactive vs Delver and being able to go T1 Inquisition vs Delver can be pretty good to remove a threat before it even hits the board. If the discard eats a Daze, we're fine with that - cause it feels like we're losing less tempo, since it's one of the few tempo plays we can actually make on T1.

I don't really like going down to 3 Ponders as well, but I do have to admit that I often board one or more out vs stuff like Mono Red and Delver.

[RhoxWarMonk]

He was actually playing full duals for a while, if I'm not mistaken.


I think 3 Hymn is a sweet, sweet spot. Hymn in itself can be a wincon, especially when going Hymn, Snap -> Hymn. It's not just about having too much Hymns; it's about having access to those early Hymns. Sometimes it sucks to draw it in some matchups where hands are depleted, but we play Brainstorm and Jace and sometimes you can still hit stuff when people are topdecking permission (like Blasts and Spellpierces).

I've always played 3 Hymn and 2 Thoughtseize and have recently switched to an extra Bolt, keeping one Thoughtseize - which I was actually thinking of replacing with a 3 K-Command. In the combo matchups, Thoughtseize can be fantastic, but I feel in a lot of matchups, trading 1 for 1 (and losing 2 life) just feels really underwhelming. I do think Tomas' thinking is probably along the lines of being a little more proactive vs Delver and being able to go T1 Inquisition vs Delver can be pretty good to remove a threat before it even hits the board. If the discard eats a Daze, we're fine with that - cause it feels like we're losing less tempo, since it's one of the few tempo plays we can actually make on T1.

I don't really like going down to 3 Ponders as well, but I do have to admit that I often board one or more out vs stuff like Mono Red and Delver.

Couldn't agree more on the 3rd hymn, I too play 3 and can't see myself going back. There's just too many times it wins games, actually my spell suite looks fairly similar to yours. Currently I'm on 3 hymn/1 TS, 2 Bolts and 3 K-Command. Really liking that setup, though I wish I had room for the 3rd bolt (its currently a Toxic Deluge or LtlH, depending on your MD slots).

I can't imagine going up to so many discard spells or going down from 4 Ponders, but Mars is a hell of a lot better of a player than I am. Right now I'm quite happy with my main deck but I feel my SB still needs work. Has anyone had much success with the 3x Tarmogoyf plan? I really haven't found any footing with them yet and quickly cut them in favor of other playtesting choices (which Im also not happy with atm).

[Misersoneof]

It seems that a lot of people are running 3 hymn, 1 Thoughtseize for their discard package while I have been running 2 hymn & 2 TS. While I agree that Hymn is really strong, does it really trump targeted discard on T1? I would've thought that looking at the op's hand, taking their best card and being able to shape your plan is better than rolling the dice.

[phg22]

Right now there are a lot of fair, grindy matchups. Against Miracles, the mirror, BUG it doesn't matter so much what we hit with Hymn, just that it resolves creating card advantage. Even against unfair decks that aren't RB Reanimator, Hymn is often better. We don't have a fast clock, so Thoughtseize often still leaves our opponent a top deck from victory while Hymn can leave them multiple draw steps from victory. This also makes Leovold more effective at closing the door.

[DemolitionColorScheme]

Has anyone had much success with the 3x Tarmogoyf plan? I really haven't found any footing with them yet and quickly cut them in favor of other playtesting choices (which Im also not happy with atm).
That too I can comment on. I switched over to the 3x Goyf SBplan a little over a month ago and I'm actually really happy with 'em!

I'll quote myself from a few pages back:
"I went to the Dutch Open Series today and jammed 3 Goyf in the SB as of yesterday (after some playtesting) and while I wasn't paired versus any Delver-variants, I did encounter 3 Chalice-'n-stuff decks and every time I boarded in the Goyfs they were a severe beating for them. It basically just becomes "protect the Goyf(s) and ride it / them to victory" and I was actually really pleased with 'em in those matchups. Ancient Tombs + getting rid of a few opposing artifacts and PWs makes for a rather large Goyf early on and quite the clock. Chalice decks that are being pressured and are on the backfoot often just ... well, lose.

In playtesting versus Grixis and UR Delver, they were spectacular as well; not only as a wall for Swiftspears, Gurmags and groundtroups, but as an offensive tool as well. Being able to close out games fast is at times just really nice. I wouldn't board them in versus stuff like BUG Delver or BUG Leovold due to Push.

I boarded them in versus Storm as well since Strix is so dead in that matchup, outside of the (expensive) cantrip and FoW-pitch, and there they did fine as well."

Outside of those experiences, I've kept them in and they're still in the SB now. In our playtesting group, people are actually rather afraid of the Goyf seeing as a lot of decks at the moment really don't have an easy answer for them; they either really bring the beats or people will try to 2-for-1 themselves by blocking with a creature and then try to Bolt it. In a weird way, Goyf has become a rather large 2-for-1 which rarely pans out for them - we either FoW the Bolt, Blast or Fluster it. It's also a pretty spectacular target for K-Command. I've found that even in the Lands matchup (which I feel is pretty bad for us) the Goyfs do excellent work. They often tend to board out stuff like Maze of Ith, due to Leovold, DRS and the rest of our creatures which aren't really that threatening. Landing a Goyf that is outside of PF-range seriously sets a clock and enables us to close out the game faster, seeing as Lands is THE deck that loves games going long.

I really like 'em versus Mono Red Prison as well, specifically. Getting rid of more 1CMC spells post-board and keeping a hand with a FoW, pitch and a Goyf often just wins games. Let them resolve the Chalice. Play a Goyf, FoW the next threat and start clocking.


It seems that a lot of people are running 3 hymn, 1 Thoughtseize for their discard package while I have been running 2 hymn & 2 TS. While I agree that Hymn is really strong, does it really trump targeted discard on T1? I would've thought that looking at the op's hand, taking their best card and being able to shape your plan is better than rolling the dice.
I used to run 3 Hymn / 2 TS and I see where you're coming from, but there's not that much you really NEED to take in a lot of the fair matchups. Keeping in TS on the draw vs Chalice-'n-stuff decks is pretty bad as well, where Hymn still does something. The 2-for-1 nature of Hymn just suits our overall gameplan much better than the 1-for-1 of Thoughtseize, I've found out.

However, I won't ever say TS (or targeted discard) is bad and I still really like it in a combo-heavy meta.

[NegatorITA]

I could only ask him a thing or two, and more like presenting my own view on his deck choices, and ask if these views were correct:
I always liked to have 4/5 discard, going t1 discard followed by a turn two hymn is often back breaking:
What's the bad news after that usually? it usually is that we don't have a clock, so we can't really follow up, and you draw more discard or nothing relevant and you die; but that doesn't happen when you have a jace, do it?
So the reasoning is simple: you have a lot of t1/t2 discard and THEN your jace should be safe to start Brainstorming.
I know it's very simplicistic, but it actually works when you get it going.
His reasoning for cut spell like duluge totally was that if you have to pay x life to come back you are already losing (and I'll add that a good opponent shouldn't lose to a deluge, thus you'll still fall behind)
For the lack of surgical, what I got was that basically he prefer to have more game vs dredge and similar rather than BR reanimator (and here we could start talking all day about which deck you want to get more prepared for)
I couldn't ask (yet) what about the usage of surgical vs punishing fire or wasteland, but well, that's I could get :)

For the librabry I can guess that getting more cards or card quality WHILE holding a jace should be enough vs grindy matches, having lost vs miracle with a liliana ready to ultimate, I guess I can't prove this reasoning wrong yet? :)

EDIT:
there are going to be videos:
don't know when yet, but they are gonna be pubblished here (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCD02_gsAReSvc3HRp3FoxyQ/videos)

Also:
In yesterday challenge we saw ecobaronern (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=27891&iddeck=225546) list(4th place), play that lost vs Brandon list (2d place)

Honestly these three list seems the starting point for all Czech playstyle

Mar's: unique playstyle, aggressive discard and unconventional sideboard choices, yet seems effective.

Ecobaronen's: aka Andreas Petersen/Enevoldsen list, runs preordain and it's almost grixis, usually my list to go, they switch from 4/5 discards to 4/5 1cc removals, seems tuned for the open meta.

Takashi/Branduin list: only hymns as discard spell, triple Jace, triple bolt/komand, tarmos in the side, looks tuned for the fair matches

[phg22]

Sylvan Library used to be a lot more common, and I cannot fathom why so many have gone away from it. It's one of the first cards in my board because what it does, it does so much better than anything else.

[Poron]

Totally agree. Overall with DS that can give you some life back

3 Kolaghan’s Command
3 Hymn
3 Snapcaster
2 Sylvan Library

You just sink in card advantage. With SL I would even consider to cut Jace which is super mana intensive (both total and colored amount)and super fragile G2

[mike1987]

Would you guys board in library against delver strategies as well?

The age old question of a turn one deathrite or discard is easier when playing against combo. However against delver strategies/miracles, would you guys start with a turn 1 discard before playing DRS the second turn? Or will you guys cast the DRS and risk the removal at the upside of an added velocity?

[Poron]

if you have 2 DRS play one, else play the TS unless he has blue mana open

[Misersoneof]

I could only ask him a thing or two, and more like presenting my own view on his deck choices, and ask if these views were correct:
I always liked to have 4/5 discard, going t1 discard followed by a turn two hymn is often back breaking:
What's the bad news after that usually? it usually is that we don't have a clock, so we can't really follow up, and you draw more discard or nothing relevant and you die; but that doesn't happen when you have a jace, do it?
So the reasoning is simple: you have a lot of t1/t2 discard and THEN your jace should be safe to start Brainstorming.
I know it's very simplicistic, but it actually works when you get it going.
His reasoning for cut spell like duluge totally was that if you have to pay x life to come back you are already losing (and I'll add that a good opponent shouldn't lose to a deluge, thus you'll still fall behind)
For the lack of surgical, what I got was that basically he prefer to have more game vs dredge and similar rather than BR reanimator (and here we could start talking all day about which deck you want to get more prepared for)
I couldn't ask (yet) what about the usage of surgical vs punishing fire or wasteland, but well, that's I could get :)

For the librabry I can guess that getting more cards or card quality WHILE holding a jace should be enough vs grindy matches, having lost vs miracle with a liliana ready to ultimate, I guess I can't prove this reasoning wrong yet? :)

EDIT:
there are going to be videos:
don't know when yet, but they are gonna be pubblished here (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCD02_gsAReSvc3HRp3FoxyQ/videos)

Also:
In yesterday challenge we saw ecobaronern (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=27891&iddeck=225546) list(4th place), play that lost vs Brandon list (2d place)

Honestly these three list seems the starting point for all Czech playstyle

Mar's: unique playstyle, aggressive discard and unconventional sideboard choices, yet seems effective.

Ecobaronen's: aka Andreas Petersen/Enevoldsen list, runs preordain and it's almost grixis, usually my list to go, they switch from 4/5 discards to 4/5 1cc removals, seems tuned for the open meta.

Takashi/Branduin list: only hymns as discard spell, triple Jace, triple bolt/komand, tarmos in the side, looks tuned for the fair matches


Thanks for posting the link to the youtube page. I'll be checking it from time to time to check for uploads.

I've been taking a real hard look at Mar's deck and I can't help but come to the conclusion that it just straight up loses to Grixis Delver.

I put his list on my tapped out account and goldfished it alongside Grixis Delver. Delver's disruption package almost always made it so the discard was irrelevant and impossible to land a Jace. Even when I went T1 inquisition into T2 Hymn, Delver almost always had either a counterspell or a wasteland to keep the Jace from coming down. Even if he could come down, the delver player would usually have creatures in play to kill him before he could pull ahead.

It also goes without saying that if Delver wins the roll then the problem is much worse.

Maybe Mar plays in a meta without Grixis Delver?

[Poron]

Grixis Delver is the Pyromancer party. Play more Marsh Casualties and Hydro/Pyroblast

You also have the colors for Izzet Staticaster and 1/1 tokens is the thing it was born for

[xix]

Thoughts on cutting down to 0 or 2/3 forces lately, has anyone else though about just straight up removing them all together. (or at least your thoughts on the matter)

We board them out so often I only want them in 2-3 matches.

I have tested it a few times and its been working locally which admittedly is mostly fair. I am playing Tomas's list mostly.

I have moved to a 1-2 ensnaring bridge main, and a extra bolt(up to 2) with 3rd hymn/kcommand main. And have Last hope as maindeck over the LOTV.

I have loved the Bridge vs multiple decks. Its between that and bitterblossom/ 1 gurmag/1 true name for some more closing speed, the former two being my first choices over the latter two.



For the interested: my meta is:
3-4 dnt
1-3 r/g lands
2 turbo
2-3 reanimator
1 aggro loam
1 bomberman
3 SNS
2-3 grixis
2 4c pile
1 u/r delver
1 miracles
2 elves
2 merfolk
1 goblins
1-3 storm all ANT

[NegatorITA]

Thanks for posting the link to the youtube page. I'll be checking it from time to time to check for uploads.

I've been taking a real hard look at Mar's deck and I can't help but come to the conclusion that it just straight up loses to Grixis Delver.

I put his list on my tapped out account and goldfished it alongside Grixis Delver. Delver's disruption package almost always made it so the discard was irrelevant and impossible to land a Jace. Even when I went T1 inquisition into T2 Hymn, Delver almost always had either a counterspell or a wasteland to keep the Jace from coming down. Even if he could come down, the delver player would usually have creatures in play to kill him before he could pull ahead.

It also goes without saying that if Delver wins the roll then the problem is much worse.

Maybe Mar plays in a meta without Grixis Delver?

As useful as it could be, he bested one of my friends which Is a long time Delver player without much efforts it seems, need to investigate how when I meet him

[beta]

Petr's Sochurek's view on Czech pile and why he prefers Tomas's list

http://www.hareruyamtg.com/article/en/category/detail/340

[phg22]

I've played the last two weeks with 3 Forces in the board and none main. The reality is that any standard configuration is going to have poor game ones vs combo anyway. I'm playing 2 Toughtseize, 3 Hymn, and a Spell Pierce main for combo. A few others have said the game one combo matchups are basically the same with or without Force. Without Force, you're obviously gaining a lot against the rest of the format. BR Reaninmator and Mono Red Prison are the two common matchups off the top of my head that are much worse game one without Force.

From a theoretical perspective, our clock is very slow. Unless we draw very well, we usually don't have a high enough density of disruption to win game one vs combo unless they stumble. We're often hoping to land Leovold and strand them with cantrips. I think Thoughtseize and Hymn are much more likely to leave our opponent floundering than a Force of Will. It's okay to lose game one a lot. Combo decks exist off their game one win percentages and if you wanted to win game one consistently, you chose the wrong deck.

[NegatorITA]

I've played the last two weeks with 3 Forces in the board and none main. The reality is that any standard configuration is going to have poor game ones vs combo anyway. I'm playing 2 Toughtseize, 3 Hymn, and a Spell Pierce main for combo. A few others have said the game one combo matchups are basically the same with or without Force. Without Force, you're obviously gaining a lot against the rest of the format. BR Reaninmator and Mono Red Prison are the two common matchups off the top of my head that are much worse game one without Force.

From a theoretical perspective, our clock is very slow. Unless we draw very well, we usually don't have a high enough density of disruption to win game one vs combo unless they stumble. We're often hoping to land Leovold and strand them with cantrips. I think Thoughtseize and Hymn are much more likely to leave our opponent floundering than a Force of Will. It's okay to lose game one a lot. Combo decks exist off their game one win percentages and if you wanted to win game one consistently, you chose the wrong deck.

Tastes? I'd never leave with forces, and I can tell you since one of my buddy plays ant or tes mostly, that having or not having at least 2+ discard spell in the main makes A LOT of difference, and since my meta is small, there are a LOT of combos, I don't really want to lose half of the game1 when I sit down to a tournament.

That's my list atm after trying some of the previous

https://manastack.com/deck/czech-pile-7

currently not running any answer to TNN main deck since there are like 0 players with it in my area (most common decks we have are food chain, tes, ant, grixis delver, moon stompy, miracle, bug control, 4c, D&T, goblins, omni show, reanimator, dredge)

Debating that third bolt:
I usually run a deluge in that slot, wondering if I should since eldrazi, albeit not common, hits hard.
I'm still not totally sold on the 0 deluge plan as mar says, but, hey, to each its own,
I'm thinking to a possible solution that catches a bit of all problematic cards but it seems there is none:
forked bolt can be very useful has it hits a pletora of stuffs while also killing DRS.
Dead/gone that cover the one mana removal slot and also marit lage / angler, even if these aren't common match up (only in the big events consider that)
toxic deluge
marsh casualties come to mind as maindeck removal, do we really have no other options though?

[Amazingxkcd]

so with DRS & Probe now banned, will Czech pile just become Grixis Control? Impossible to smoothly run 4 colors now

[RhoxWarMonk]

so with DRS & Probe now banned, will Czech pile just become Grixis Control? Impossible to smoothly run 4 colors now

Yeah, it'll have to go into BUG or Grixis, depending on what you want to do...

Sadness

[Poron]

Where is the banned list?

[RhoxWarMonk]

Where is the banned list?

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/july-2-2018-banned-restricted-update-2018-07-02

[NegatorITA]

well, I guess it's time to sell everything :(





not really

but

they killed the best deck I've ever played

[Poron]

What made this deck huge was Snapcaster Mage and the incredible card advantage of 3 Hymn and 3 Kolaghan’s Command even repeated.

Just drop green and big mana spells and you should be fine in a control shell.

Turn 1 Seize into turn 2 Hymn with counter backup is still huge

Overall your SCM become better without their Shamans and Pyromancer still kills the same

Green is definitely to be dropped

[DemolitionColorScheme]

Yeah, I feel going Grixis is definitely the way to go. I think we can still make this work and keep stuff like Strix, Snap, Hymn, K-Command and even Jace rolling. Losing DRS is going to be a major blow for us, but the 2-for-1 mentality can still work in the grand scheme of things. We might even be able to abuse some Blood Moons now. RUG Delver might be popping up and they've been soft to Blood Moon as much as Grixis Delver, if not more so.

[RhoxWarMonk]

What made this deck huge was Snapcaster Mage and the incredible card advantage of 3 Hymn and 3 Kolaghan’s Command even repeated.

Just drop green and big mana spells and you should be fine in a control shell.

Turn 1 Seize into turn 2 Hymn with counter backup is still huge

Overall your SCM become better without their Shamans and Pyromancer still kills the same

Green is definitely to be dropped

Sultai Leovold was a thing before the bannings as well, which doesn't rely on deathrites. I think both Grixis Control and BUG Control shells are reasonable to go into now, and make sure you all load up on those surgical extractions before they spike in price :D I have a feeling 3-4 will be mandatory in SBs now going forward (unless you happen to play white).

[DemolitionColorScheme]

Sultai Leovold was a thing before the bannings as well, which doesn't rely on deathrites.
Huh? Sultai Leovold has always played DRS.

[Poron]

Apart from Library and Abrupt Decay what is the advantage of losing Bolt, Blasts and K-Command?

Overall red gives you the best winnings card ever in a can trip world: Pyromancer

The best line might be back again
Delver
Hymn
Pyromancer

[RhoxWarMonk]

Yeah, I feel going Grixis is definitely the way to go. I think we can still make this work and keep stuff like Strix, Snap, Hymn, K-Command and even Jace rolling. Losing DRS is going to be a major blow for us, but the 2-for-1 mentality can still work in the grand scheme of things. We might even be able to abuse some Blood Moons now. RUG Delver might be popping up and they've been soft to Blood Moon as much as Grixis Delver, if not more so.

Solid point. I played RUG delver for a while and IIRC it traditionally never played any basics at all. A Blood Moon was nearly impossible to break out of, especially if you had a slow hand and couldn't get under it.

Lots of ways to go here now though. K-Command + Hymn + Snaps are still great. You can also perhaps just replace Leovold with Kess, who's also quite good and go on your way. On the other side, going into BUG gives you access to Abrupt Decay (which suddenly should be really good with Miracles only going up), Leovold and a more discard heavy approach, which should help the combo matchup that'll be much more frequent (sans Reanimator, perhaps). Either way, it'll be interesting to see how things adapt. A lot of decks will need to change now, the whole metagame should look completely different a month from now.

[RhoxWarMonk]

Huh? Sultai Leovold has always played DRS.

Oh sorry, that came out wrong. Yes absolutely they rely on deathrites but I don't think the deck instantly dies as a result of the banning. They'll adapt the same as the other deathrite decks.

[RhoxWarMonk]

Apart from Library and Abrupt Decay what is the advantage of losing Bolt, Blasts and K-Command?

Overall red gives you the best winnings card ever in a can trip world: Pyromancer

The best line might be back again
Delver
Hymn
Pyromancer

I agree, it likely makes more sense to stick with red due to K-Command and Bolts. Green also has Leovold but I think Kess would be a good solution.

I'm just saying, there's lots of choices and we shouldn't just automatically assume that Grixis is automatically the way to go. Maybe it is (very likely) but Im personally going to explore all options available.

[NegatorITA]

What made this deck huge was Snapcaster Mage and the incredible card advantage of 3 Hymn and 3 Kolaghan’s Command even repeated.

Just drop green and big mana spells and you should be fine in a control shell.

Turn 1 Seize into turn 2 Hymn with counter backup is still huge

Overall your SCM become better without their Shamans and Pyromancer still kills the same

Green is definitely to be dropped

agreed,
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=27610&iddeck=221866

the master already foresaw it coming

[DemolitionColorScheme]

Apart from Library and Abrupt Decay what is the advantage of losing Bolt, Blasts and K-Command?

Overall red gives you the best winnings card ever in a can trip world: Pyromancer

The best line might be back again
Delver
Hymn
Pyromancer
So, you're proposing a more midrange-y version of Grixis Delver? Like the ol' BUG Delver, with Hymns and such? That could be interesting, though in the past when we had BUG Delver as one of the T1 decks, there was never a Grixis version that tried to do about the same as BUG Delver did - back then, even though we had RUG Delver messing around with YP. It's interesting, though. Granted, we do have K-Command now.

... thinking of YP and losing Probe makes me sad as well, haha. Fuck these bans! :cry:


Solid point. I played RUG delver for a while and IIRC it traditionally never played any basics at all. A Blood Moon was nearly impossible to break out of, especially if you had a slow hand and couldn't get under it.
RUG never played basics, no. 3Volcs/3Trops, 8 fetch, 4 Wastelands.


Lots of ways to go here now though. K-Command + Hymn + Snaps are still great. You can also perhaps just replace Leovold with Kess, who's also quite good and go on your way. On the other side, going into BUG gives you access to Abrupt Decay (which suddenly should be really good with Miracles only going up), Leovold and a more discard heavy approach, which should help the combo matchup that'll be much more frequent (sans Reanimator, perhaps).
Kess might be interesting, though I've never been a huge fan of her. Dunno, always felt I'd rather just resolve a Jace. Granted, the 3/4 flying body is a thing. I think it depends on how much Delver we've got coming our way.


Oh sorry, that came out wrong. Yes absolutely they rely on deathrites but I don't think the deck instantly dies as a result of the banning. They'll adapt the same as the other deathrite decks.
Yeah, exactly. Sultai Control was just Czech Pile without red and a TNN + Wastelands sprinkled in.

BUG can definitely be a thing and it really does depend on the meta, but boy ... lemme tell you, I love me some Red Blast / Pyroblast.

[Poron]

The only reason to play green over red can only be Sylvan Library, but with Jace and fetchlands it doesn’t make so much sense

Red gives you blasts bolts commands and Pyromancer..

Abrupt Decay can be a good reason as well, but it is very splashable with a couple of Tropical Island

[Anachronism]

The only reason to play green over red can only be Sylvan Library, but with Jace and fetchlands it doesn’t make so much sense

Red gives you blasts bolts commands and Pyromancer..

Abrupt Decay can be a good reason as well, but it is very splashable with a couple of Tropical Island

Sylvan Library can be replaced well enough with Search for Azcanta. Counterbalance might be a problem without Abrupt Decay though.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

It's been real. I'm off to tap some moms, ports and vials. Good luck on whatever you pick up next.

[Darkness]

The people in this thread trying to keep this archetype alive reminds me when I tried to play NO RUG in 2011 after the misstep banning. The nile is not just a river.

[Sefir]

The people in this thread trying to keep this archetype alive remind me when I tried to play NO RUG in 2011 after the misstep banning. The nile is not just a river.

If there are lessons to be taken from the Miracles community after the Top ban, is that if the community shows enough will, interest and innovation, anything is possible.

[Nestalim]

4c is dead, but Grixis and BUG will remain.

[RhoxWarMonk]

4c is dead, but Grixis and BUG will remain.

This is my take as well.... don't know how 4C can live now without deathrite, you can't just swap in 4 BoP, deathrite is one card that is literally irreplaceable.

That said, BUG and Grixis shells will live on and adapt. Yes, they'll be different and will need to adapt to battle GY strategies like Reanimator (expect Grisslenasty to be next on the chopping block, once this becomes oppressive) and dredge. How these shells will look is anyone's guess and which out of the two will be more popular is certainly up for debate. A lot of people in this thread seem to be leaning towards Grixis but BUG was good before the ban (Im aware they too run DS), so I personally want to try some BUG lists as well before dabbling into Grixis. No right or wrong answer here, it'll likely largely depend on meta calls and playstyles. I expect a huge amount of Miracles at my next tournament here, so packing Abrupt Decays feel like a good idea to me.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

If there are lessons to be taken from the Miracles community after the Top ban, is that if the community shows enough will, interest and innovation, anything is possible.No, only many things are possible, not anything.

For miracles, top was seemingly just a crutch. I would posit that Deathrite wasn't a crutch, but rather a pillar, nay the cornerstone of the deck.

[KobeBryan]

4c is dead, but Grixis and BUG will remain.

I don't see how BUG remains. There's nothing good in bug without DRS that would be better off in BUG than other color combinations.

[Hanni]

I don't see how BUG remains. There's nothing good in bug without DRS that would be better off in BUG than other color combinations.

I'd argue that Leovold alone is worth remaining in BUG. Abrupt Decay just adds the icing on the cake to make BUG worth it.

[Poron]

Grixis colors will remain and Leovold dies to

Pyroblast
Bolt
Fatal Push

One thing was to randomly summon it with DRS and any possible combination of two lands.
now the format will be full of Wasteland and Stifle and you have lost your mana fixer and mana dork altogether

A 3 colors sorcery speed spell has no space, imho

Even Jace is often cut G2 because of his mana intensivity and weakness

[MorphBerlin]

I'd argue that Leovold alone is worth remaining in BUG. Abrupt Decay just adds the icing on the cake to make BUG worth it.

I disagree but time will tell. I would sleeve grixis control up right now if I wanted to play something similar to pile. Decay is only woth the inefficency if CB becomes relevant again.

[DemolitionColorScheme]

https://i.imgur.com/ZOJb6Js.jpg

I'm going to fuck around a bit with a Grixis Thieves list, just for the hell of it, seeing as nothing is settled anyways.

[LANDS : 22]
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Tropical Island
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn

[CREATURES : 9]
4 Baleful Strix
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Grim Lavamancer

[PLANESWALKERS : 5]
3 Dack Fayden
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

[INSTANTS : 14]
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Punishing Fire
2 Fatal Push
1 Kolaghan's Command

[SORCERIES : 10]
3 Ponder
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Rise // Fall

SB:
3 Pyroblast
1 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Hydroblast
1 To the Slaughter
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Spell Snare
1 Pernicious Deed

---

We'll see how it goes. At least it does look like fun.

[FlinkerMomonga]

This will be my first attempt for Grixis Control:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
3 Island
1 Swamp

4 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Gurmag Angler
1 Kess, Dissident Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

3 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Toxic Deluge

3 Thoughtseize

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// Sideboard //
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Pyroblast
2 Hydroblast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Blood Moon
1 Liliana, the Last Hope


I'm not sure about the Vendilion Clique. I thought about replacing it with either Jace, Vryn's Prodigy or Search for Azcanta.

What are your thoughts about my list?

[MEWTU]

For Grixis, without DRS do we still like 20 lands or do you think 21 is better?

[DemolitionColorScheme]

I'm currently on 22 land. I feel staying on 20 land is way too hopeful.

[RhoxWarMonk]

Latest 5-0's are out on MTGO post ban, this is the version listed for Grixis Control.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1183667#paper

Some interesting choices, thoughts?

Side note, really wish WotC gave us full access, I'd love to see all the decks that are in the 5-0 bracket.

[DemolitionColorScheme]

This looks like Pile, minus Leovold and DRS and with those slots filled with 2 Gurmag, Counterspell and some upped numbers on K-Command and Push (depends on which version you ran, of course). This looks really weird to me, though. I know, a single 5-0 list is such a small sample size, but this just looks clunky as fuck. This deck really has 1 turn one play on the play and it's to cast Ponder (or Brainstorm, I guess). I'm not saying it's mandatory to have a turn 1 play, but in a DRS-less version of Pile (I'm just gonna call this Pile) is it really the way to go to make this deck's curve even higher than it was when DRS was around? That can't be correct ... No TS, no Inquisition. Nowhere in the 75.

How does this not fold to tempo decks / mana denial? He might not have encountered any - that could be the case. I don't know, though, this list just looks way too optimistic.

[MEWTU]

cool, that list is very similar to what I've been testing with to very positive results (-2 Push, +2 Bolt; -1 Hymn, -1 Command, +2 Deluge; -2 Counterspell +2 Thoughtseize), slightly different mana base (I have 4 basics) and sideboard.

I don't really think it seems that clunky. I mean, what's Miracles doing on turn 1 besides Ponder? I guess they have Portent, too, sure. And I will agree that I like a few Thoughtseizes in the maindeck but Ponder, TS or Removal turn 1 is perfectly reasonable.

I don't know, I don't see why there isn't a deck here. It's pretty similar to Miracles in concept, but instead of StP we're playing Bolt/Push, and the tools we use to create value are slightly different (K Command vs Predict, etc).

I only have about 10 matches so far, so not nearly anything conclusive but I've only lost to UR Delver (0-2, game 1 kept a slow hand and game 2 I neglected to play around PoP and got destroyed but probably would've lost regardless) and Miracles (1-2; game 1 had him hellbent but he topdecked a Search for Azcanta that I couldn't deal with, won game 2 handily, game 3 had double force for my removal on Mentor). Creature matchups seem easy, I've played Elves three times and just straight obliterated it every time, and played Merfolk and won in 3. Going to keep testing with the shell with minor tweaks here and there, having a lot of fun with it.

[DemolitionColorScheme]

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying this couldn't work, but I'm exactly in the camp you seem to be: Possibly slightly more basics and definitely turn 1 interaction like TS / IoK. We're not Miracles, though. We don't have access to a 1 mana sweeper and 1CMC removal that gets rid of anything outside of basically TNN and Goose. Push is great, Bolt is great - but Bolt often doesn't get rid of a Goyf or Gurmag.

Also, from reading your post; You haven't playtested against any form of mana-denial? No (RUG) Delver, DnT, Maverick, etc? Correct?

[Hrothgar]

Hi guys!
The Deathrite Shaman’s ban destroy the classic Grixis Delver archetype and the 4c Control Czech Pile archetype.
Many players, after ban, trying to use the Grixis colors with good feedback from test. Here we all can talking about the possible evolutions of the Grixis colors in competitive Legacy.

In this Discord now we have two different sections:

- MIDRANGE (similar to old Czech Pile decks)
- DELVER (similar to old Grixis Delver decks)

Each gameplay variant of Grixis gets its own channel based of 2 subchannels from now on: “General” and “Decklist”. If the subchannels are being used more often and we feel like too many people joined or actively post, we will think about extending it.

If you miss anything or feel like we should add something, please let me know!

I hope you like this and will be good for all of us!

All of you can use this link that will not expire, to invite other players / share the chat

https://discord.gg/GuBX4wd

You’re also free to create new invite.

[DemolitionColorScheme]

LSV on the new 'Pile':
- https://www.twitch.tv/videos/282389436

[RhoxWarMonk]

LSV on the new 'Pile':
- https://www.twitch.tv/videos/282389436

He ended up going 4-1, losing to RUG delver. Same list as the 5-0 on MTGGoldfish.

Pretty good games, deck seemed solid despite the lack of one drops.

[DemolitionColorScheme]

He ended up going 4-1, losing to RUG delver. Same list as the 5-0 on MTGGoldfish.

Pretty good games, deck seemed solid despite the lack of one drops.
Yeah, I was surprised as well, though I do have to say that if RUG Delver is going to be T1, the list he was running did seem a little clunky, but that could also be due to him boarding out the Pushes, which he mentioned was probably a mistake.

[MEWTU]

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying this couldn't work, but I'm exactly in the camp you seem to be: Possibly slightly more basics and definitely turn 1 interaction like TS / IoK. We're not Miracles, though. We don't have access to a 1 mana sweeper and 1CMC removal that gets rid of anything outside of basically TNN and Goose. Push is great, Bolt is great - but Bolt often doesn't get rid of a Goyf or Gurmag.

Also, from reading your post; You haven't playtested against any form of mana-denial? No (RUG) Delver, DnT, Maverick, etc? Correct?

I didn't list everything I'd played against. And again barely any matches, so take it with a huge grain of salt. I'll be keeping testing for sure.

Played five pre-board games against my friend's DnT during the prerelease this weekend (slightly outdated so no Brightling or that new crypt-on-a-stick), went 3-1-? (we had to stop in the middle of one game but it was a tossup with Batterskull and cards in hand vs my 2 Anglers and hellbent). Wasteland was moderately annoying, Port less so because we operate so much at instant speed. The 2x Deluge maindeck was obviously huge. I'm on 2x K Command right now (mostly because I only own 2 online where I play for the most part) and a third somewhere in the 75 would be amazing here, I think.

Played against 4C Loam once and won in 3, lost game one (kind of punted, could've dealt with a KotR at the expense of a Deluge and 5 or 6 life; held it wanting to get more value, KotR snowballed and was my downfall) then G2/3 were a combination of wrecking him with Hymn and not letting literally a single threat resolve between Bolt/Push (which could maybe change to a 3/2 split), Edict and Deluge.

Haven't played RUG Delver yet, and I can see it being tough if they're on the Stifle plan.

Again single matches here and there so nothing conclusive besides a first "feel" for the deck, but I think they can be fun to read anyway so why not.

Edit: oh and I also lost to storm 2x, 1-2 both times but I don't think it's a terrible terrible matchup by any means.

[MEWTU]

(Just treating this as a place to post Grixis Control stuff for now, I guess)

Won a twenty man, four round tournament with my local playgroup earlier today. Chill but competitive group, got at least one PT guy, some grinders, some MTGO guys, some dudes who mostly just fuck around with the group on Saturdays and hit the odd GP every now and then (aka me), etc. I'd consider it late day one/day two GP level of competency.

I'll post my list, my results, and some thoughts interspersed between. My original list was close to the one that was posted earlier in this thread as a 5-0, which had little 1CMC interaction. I then saw another list posted on MTGTop8 that featured a full 4 Thoughtseize maindeck, which I loved. However, the creature package didn't include any Snapcasters and included 3 TNN which I don't think is where we want to be at, so I kind of fused the two of those lists and my original list that I was testing (which was similar to that first mentioned, 5-0 list)

The List:

LANDS: 20

4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Island
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands

People are basically floating between 19-21 lands right now. With the 3 Preordain build as you'll see below, the list I referenced had 19 lands. But I didn't have enough proxies printed out (I mostly play on MTGO and when I play paper with the gang, I use cool alter art proxies printed off Google. It dictated several of my card choices haha, as I'll describe) to fill out the 60th card so I tossed in a 20th land, the second Mire, which I'd printed. But I was very happy with the 20 land count.

Threats: 11

4 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Gurmag Angler

1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Angler was an all-star. Non white decks just can't deal with him, and against white decks it's easy enough to hold him until you get to a position when you can answer a StP or don't mind it resolving. The graveyard can get a bit tight between him and Snapcaster, so I think 2 is a good number. Never not playing 4 Strix, it just checks all the boxes. My original list had all four Snapcasters but again I only had the two proxies, so I swapped the last two with two Counterspells. I think I'd like a third Snapcaster possibly but the Counterspells were really good all day (except when I sided them out vs DnT). Nothing too crazy with the Planeswalkers, Lili is just insta-gg against some matchups and I actually got to ulti her three times(!) today which was sweet. Other possible inclusions: TNN -- don't like it. Blocks I guess and pitches to Force, but is just kind of slow and awkward and not where I want to be at. Kess: worse than Snapcaster Mage IMO. More of a "fun of" card.


Spells: 29

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Preordain

4 Thoughtseize
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push

2 Counterspell
1 Diabolic Edict

2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Toxic Deluge

4 Force of Will

Like I mentioned the Counterspells were a bit of a late addition but they performed very nicely and I would include at least one in my flex slots going forward, I think. The major thing here is playing the full four Thoughtseize maindeck and zero Hymn's (relegated to the sideboard) -- this could be controversial but I feel like we already have a fine enough matchup against the grindy archetypes that Hymn is nice vs, and adding the Thoughtseizes maindeck gives us extra percentage points vs combo. And casting T1 Thoughtseize is just really fun. I was also really happy with the three Preordains as something extra to do early in the game. Otherwise the inclusions are standard enough -- I settled on a 2/2 Bolt/Push split after generally running more Bolts than Pushes in the past -- I just wanted to be able to answer threats like Knight of the Reliquary while dropping the extra points against planeswalkers (and the odd burn to win the game). I love at least 1 Diabolic Edict and Toxic Deluge in the maindeck flex slots (which I'll outline below) to hedge against Marit Lage tokens and any go wide strategies, Deluge is also really really nice against DnT. I didn't have room to fit a third K Command but I would've loved to have another, it was critical in two of my matches.

Sideboard: 15

2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Blood Moon
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Pyroblast
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Toxic Deluge

Nothing too crazy going on here. This is probably close to what I would run in an open metagame, but I did consider my local gang when putting this together. We have a fairly standard metagame with a slight lean towards combo decks, which was a great reason to play the full four Thoughtseize maindeck, and supplement with an additional two Edict and some other incidental stuff here. Two Hymn to Tourach to bring in against grindy stuff like Miracles, Death and Taxes, etc; anything where you aren't getting your face beat in super quickly and are looking for two-for-ones. Otherwise not much to say -- I opted to play two Blood Moon here instead of like one more anti-combo spell (a third Flusterstorm probably) and one more anti-grind card (a Bitterblossom or Chandra etc). But I figured Blood Moon just straight hoses some archetypes and that's worth two slots, and I also know we have at least one and generally two Lands players.

So there's the deck and some rambling. Unfortunately I don't actually have a spectacular memory so I'm way better at the theoretical stuff above than actually describing my matches haha. But I'll give you the rundown and a few quick thoughts on each:

Round 1: Four Color Loam (W 2-0, 1-0 in matches)

I consider this a fine matchup, probably slightly favored. They have Wasteland and Chalice but otherwise not really much going on in the way of threats that we have a hard time answering, and their grind isn't as good as ours once we start two-for-oneing, even with Life from the Loam and P Fire, IMO. Maybe I just got lucky that my opponent never tried to cast Liliana (would love a third Bolt and/or third Snapcaster for this matchup). And due to P Fire we do pretty much need to win with planeswalkers or Angler, so important to keep in mind how we protect those. Luckily they don't have much answer for Angler.

Game one involved an early Chalice for one which I was able to play around and then kill with C Command, eventually using Lili ultimate to make a million zombies. Game two I was able to kill all his threats, including one turn where I had to Deluge for 1 to knock off a Dryad Arbor so I could Edict his Knight. Eventually beat him to death with an Angler. I don't really remember any other specific details of this match but it felt easy and I was never not in control.

Round 2: Storm (W 2-0, 2-0 in matches)

Storm on the other hand I just don't love. Firstly I just hate playing against it, I find the "sit there and sculpt your hand" type of game less fun than games with a lot of creatures and removal being flung back and forth (I think my favorite matchup to play with this deck is DnT for that reason). And secondly I think it can be a toss up and that they're probably slightly favored. The four Thoughtseize was really nice though.

Game one my opponent and I traded draw and discard spells and we got to a point at which he Thoughtseized me which I fake-thought about for a while, finally Counterspelling with an "eh, fine" and Force+pitch in hand. He immediately went for Infernal Tutor->Sac two LED's and I wrecked him with Force and eventually won via Jace ultimate. Game 2 I don't remember as much, he mulliganed to six and did nothing turn 1, I Thoughtseized away a Tutor and then Surgicaled it (I don't *love* Surgical against Storm but I'll generally bring in at least 1 since I have a lot to board out and it can be fine) in an otherwise anemic hand and eventually beat him down with an Angler after countering a few spells and him generally never being able to combo. The actual Counterspells were really nice in this matchup.


Round 3: "Steel Stompy" (Chalice Affinity) (W 2-1, 3-0 in matches)

This is a sweet deck from a dude who always brings some spicy stuff to the table. Basically Modern Affinity but with Sol Lands and Chalice plus more big spells like Karn and all four Walking Ballista etc.

Game one he resolved a T1 Chalice on the play, I looked at my hand of five one drops and frowned. I was eventually able to K Command it but it was too late, he'd hit me with a Wasteland at that point and I was way behind and died to the board (I do think I slightly misplayed the K Command modes though and could've possibly lived one more turn but was probably still toast). Game 2 I was able to Blood Moon away his million manlands, kill all his threats and I think beat him down with Angler, don't really remember. Game 3 was a lot of removal plus a resolved Liliana causing him problems, I was eventually able to +1 a Ravager causing him to sac the only other artifact he had, which I responded with a K Command to discard his last card and finish the Ravager. He scooped when I ultied Liliana. K Command was an absolute all star in this match, not surprisingly. A third would've been a welcome addition.

Round 4: Death and Taxes (W 2-1, 4-0 in matches)

I generally consider this matchup super fun, so I was happy to play against it. I think it could be a 50-50 matchup. I've had very good results in my tiny amount of testing which I've outlined in my last post but they always seem to have some tricks up their sleeve.

Game 1 was a 25 minute long grind fest. Eventually through removal and disruption the board boiled down to his Thalia+Jitte+Karakas shenanigans vs my Gurmag Angler. I eventually drew Liliana which is just nuts in this matchup, and used it to fuck with his Thalia and chip damage in, eventually I was able to finish the Thalia with a K Command and finish him off. Game two he beat my face in quickly with Thalia + some dork with a Sword of Light and Shadow on it. Game three he didn't have a ton going on early game besides a Vial which I always force and some land disruption, he eventually had a Mom and tapped out for the new 1WW Morphling dude (forget the name) against which I was luckily able to rip the land I needed for Toxic Deluge. Then I cast Liliana, he was able to drop a Revoker naming it but I had a Fatal Push and was off to the races, eventually winning with ultimate Zombies.


All in all still really loving the deck, especially this new list with more early casts in Thoughtseize and Preordain. Building off this shell, which I think I'll keep roughly the same, I consider the flex slots:

2 Counterspell
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Preordain

I wouldn't hate cutting a Preordain and just having two, but for now I'm going to keep working with the three. The rest you can just shift as needed, I could see adding more Snapcaster Mages for sure and possibly another Bolt. I also don't hate the idea of adding another grindy spell like maybe a Search for Azcanta (we're a bit soft to Wasteland anyway so why not right?) or a Painful Truths/Night's Whisper or something just to add some points vs grindy stuff.

Let me know if you have any questions! And would love to hear about how other people are faring with Grixis.

[Yeaux]

Hey Mewtu - glad to see somebody else is having success with Grixis right now. Yesterday I ran the Grixis Control list that the Brainstorm Show podcast guys talked about through a League and went 5-0. The list is:

4 Baleful Strix
2 Gurmag Angler
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Bitterblossom
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Blood Moon
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Fatal Push
3 Kolaghan's Command
2 Lightning Bolt

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Island
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Badlands
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:
2 Blood Moon
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Snare
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Engineered Plague
1 Painful Truths
1 Vendilion Clique

I really liked Gurmag and Bitterblossom. Sticking an early BB against most control decks or even decks you generally have a hard time closing out allowed me to have the constant pressure that control decks like this can lack sometimes. Sometimes fetching the basics to play around wastelands was awkward, but without any main deck hymns, it's not too bad. The amount of wastelands that were invalidated from my opponents I miss hymns, but this deck having four MD targeted removal makes up for it a bit. Next time I run it through a league, I'll likely move the MD moon to the side for another JTMS or other sticky threat.

[Misersoneof]

Was waiting to see if this deck would be kicked out of the DTB section but I guess Czech Pile (or Grixis Control??) is here to stay.

I have been looking at Wilson Hunter's new Grixis Control list and I think it's a good underdog choice for the current meta. It has answers to a lot of things other decks will be doing and I can't help but feel that very few opponents will see it coming.

That being said, I am gearing up for Eternal Weekend in Yokohama this next month and there are a couple of decks that I am looking at testing against.

1. Sneak and Show

This deck was one that I thought was not discussed enough after the deathrite ban. It lost nothing in the banning other than its worst matchup (grixis delver) and a slightly unfavored matchup (storm). I think this will be the deck to beat going forward. Additionally, the Japanese are also notorious for their love of show and tell. What cards are important to have against this deck?

2. UWx Control

Miracles as well as UWx Stoneblade both seem to be solid deck choices in the new meta. With the 'goose being loose' and TNN still a viable option, I think that wraths will be at a premium. Additionally, if Sneak and Show does become the number 1 deck, then extreme control strategies might be good options to fight against it.

Due to threat of these decks (perceived or otherwise) there has been an uptick of bitterblossoms in grixis lists. How effective is this card against them?

3. Death and Taxes

This is already a pretty good matchup for us I think so I don't think it will require much consideration here.

4. RUG Delver

This deck will prey on any deck with a manabase that is susceptible to its attacks. I think that push, bolt and gurmag line up well against this deck. As long as we can avoid having fetches stifled and discard the geese then we should be alright.

Are there any other decks that I should add to this list? Do you disagree with anything that I have written above?

[supachai]

Hi all,

As the author of this deck's Primer, I wanted to have a quick discussion on how to proceed with this thread. With DRS gone, the future of this deck is certainly going to be different. I already added a note in the history section that this will bring significant implications. It may become Grixis focused or BUG, or maybe both will exist in some form. I suppose the question is, should we keep this thread as a place to discuss these new versions or create new ones and leave this one as a small piece of Legacy history?

I realize the meta is in flux and will take some time to stabilize. If we are to keep this one, I could potentially try to update the primer with new information and lists. I also wouldn't be opposed to someone else taking the mantle in a new thread as I will be busying taking a new job in the coming months. Please chime in on your thoughts. It is sad that Czech Pile was such a short-lived deck, but I am happy that I was able to contribute to the community in some way, and I hope that the deck adapts and continues to exist in some shape or other.

[DemolitionColorScheme]

Was waiting to see if this deck would be kicked out of the DTB section but I guess Czech Pile (or Grixis Control??) is here to stay.

I have been looking at Wilson Hunter's new Grixis Control list and I think it's a good underdog choice for the current meta. It has answers to a lot of things other decks will be doing and I can't help but feel that very few opponents will see it coming.

That being said, I am gearing up for Eternal Weekend in Yokohama this next month and there are a couple of decks that I am looking at testing against.

1. Sneak and Show

This deck was one that I thought was not discussed enough after the deathrite ban. It lost nothing in the banning other than its worst matchup (grixis delver) and a slightly unfavored matchup (storm). I think this will be the deck to beat going forward. Additionally, the Japanese are also notorious for their love of show and tell. What cards are important to have against this deck?

2. UWx Control

Miracles as well as UWx Stoneblade both seem to be solid deck choices in the new meta. With the 'goose being loose' and TNN still a viable option, I think that wraths will be at a premium. Additionally, if Sneak and Show does become the number 1 deck, then extreme control strategies might be good options to fight against it.

Due to threat of these decks (perceived or otherwise) there has been an uptick of bitterblossoms in grixis lists. How effective is this card against them?

3. Death and Taxes

This is already a pretty good matchup for us I think so I don't think it will require much consideration here.

4. RUG Delver

This deck will prey on any deck with a manabase that is susceptible to its attacks. I think that push, bolt and gurmag line up well against this deck. As long as we can avoid having fetches stifled and discard the geese then we should be alright.

Are there any other decks that I should add to this list? Do you disagree with anything that I have written above?
I think we have pretty good matchups vs D&T en Blade decks in general (depending on the list), but Miracles is going to be harder without Leovold, Library, Decay and Hymn. Bitterblossom can be quite good vs Miracles, though. I'll give you that - not sure if that's enough, though.

S&T isn't going to be a good matchup and I think S&T is going to be one of the biggest DsTB. Arcane Artisan is a good new addition to the deck as well and is going to tamper with our SB-plan. Speaking of; I definitely suggest running 3 REBs in the new meta. Also, S&T can fold to an early clock + permission / disruption and while we can do the permission / disruption part, an early clock we can't deliver and Bitterblossom isn't going to change that at all (it's achingly slow), neither is Blood Moon. The downside of the above list is that it also packs zero Hymns, which are great vs combo. The loss of DRS is actually really apparent in this matchup, since DRS not only provided an early EOT clock, it also enabled us to discard and keep mana open for permission.

I think RUG Delver is rather even. If they get the Threat / Stifle / Wasteland / Daze hand, it's hard to get going and the above list also runs 1 less Push and 0 Edicts. Bitterblossom gets sided out in that MU (according to the Sideboard Mapping), but that list does run more Basics, which can be good, but can also provide some color-issues. Blood Moon is GG vs RUG and if they side out FoWs, that might be a really big win there.

[DemolitionColorScheme]

Hi all,

As the author of this deck's Primer, I wanted to have a quick discussion on how to proceed with this thread. With DRS gone, the future of this deck is certainly going to be different. I already added a note in the history section that this will bring significant implications. It may become Grixis focused or BUG, or maybe both will exist in some form. I suppose the question is, should we keep this thread as a place to discuss these new versions or create new ones and leave this one as a small piece of Legacy history?

I realize the meta is in flux and will take some time to stabilize. If we are to keep this one, I could potentially try to update the primer with new information and lists. I also wouldn't be opposed to someone else taking the mantle in a new thread as I will be busying taking a new job in the coming months. Please chime in on your thoughts. It is sad that Czech Pile was such a short-lived deck, but I am happy that I was able to contribute to the community in some way, and I hope that the deck adapts and continues to exist in some shape or other.
I think we can keep this thread going. The Grixis lists, at least, are very much Pile-like in nature and they're basically just Pile without DRS and Leovold. BUG lists still vary a lot, some going with a similar setup as the Grixis lists, others veering off towards the Noble and Goyf side of things.

I think we can still make it clear in the primer that this deck / these decks were birthed from what Pile used to be; keeping the history intact.

[DemolitionColorScheme]

Here's an interview with Tomas Mar (the creator of Czech Pile) at MKM that was taking place yesterday and today.
He talks about the DRS banning and the future of the Legacy meta and the future of BUG / Grixis / 4C Control.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhK9B4SoUkc

Some general points he mentioned:
- Combo is great at the moment, together with DnT, Miracles, Lands and Aggro Loam.
- He also proposes that RUG isn't that great anymore (with him having played it a lot in the past as well)
- SFM is outdated and those decks usually aren't fantastic vs combo. He proposes Blade decks will fall off soon.

Grixis / BUG / 4C Control:
- DRS wasn't actually all that important in the grand scheme of things and he is pretty sure decks like these can still thrive.
- From what I can gather, he feels that 4 colors might still be mandatory, depending on how much Miracles is present. Decay and Life from the Loam will be big players in these kinds of decks, since he feels that Decay and Red Blasts are both really important in that matchup. Loam will have to be a crutch without DRS.
- Strix is going to be good in this meta, which is one of the reasons why RUG Delver will struggle more; RUG has gained nothing new and decks like these defenitely have gained a lot through the years.

I don't know what Tomas exactly played at MKM, but I'm sure lists will be posted soon enough and we can have a look at what direction he's taken.

[Politta]

This weekend I played a list similar to the one MEWTU posted above.

Main:

9 Creatures
4 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Gurmag Angler

3 Planeswalkers
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana, the Last Hope

28 Spells
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
3 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
2 Lighting Bolt
2 Fatal Push
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Diabolic Edict

20 Lands
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Island
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands

Side:

2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Hydroblast
2 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Dead / Gone
1 Diabolic Edict
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Marsh Casualties


It was a 4 rounds + top 4 tournament. I went 2-1-1 in the Swiss rounds, won the first match of the top 4 and then we split the final.

Overall the deck performed very well! It's very good against lands, d&t and, red prison decks, which are about 60% of my local meta lol

I will probably add 1 or 2 Engineered Explosives in the side to deal with enchantments, as I lost to a RIP+Helm combo and got a draw against an Academy Rector / curses deck. I might also add another Thoughtseize and remove the Inquisition of Kozilek.

[MEWTU]

Hey Mewtu - glad to see somebody else is having success with Grixis right now. Yesterday I ran the Grixis Control list that the Brainstorm Show podcast guys talked about through a League and went 5-0. The list is:

Nice work!

I really liked Gurmag and Bitterblossom. Sticking an early BB against most control decks or even decks you generally have a hard time closing out allowed me to have the constant pressure that control decks like this can lack sometimes. Sometimes fetching the basics to play around wastelands was awkward, but without any main deck hymns, it's not too bad. The amount of wastelands that were invalidated from my opponents I miss hymns, but this deck having four MD targeted removal makes up for it a bit. Next time I run it through a league, I'll likely move the MD moon to the side for another JTMS or other sticky threat.

Interesting take with the heavy basics + maindeck Blood Moon. Was it good enough? I feel like 5 basics is at least 1 too many and possibly 2, and Blood Moon is a super polarizing card right now - either very good or very bad, for the most part. I don't really love having too many cards like that in my maindeck (I do have Edict and Deluge to be fair though) so don't think I'd want it main. Same goes for Bitterblossom (being polarizing) -- I was considering playing 1 in my sideboard exactly for Miracles like you said. We'll have to see if that becomes a big enough part of the metagame and is a bad enough matchup to warrant it.


Was waiting to see if this deck would be kicked out of the DTB section but I guess Czech Pile (or Grixis Control??) is here to stay.

1. Sneak and Show

This deck was one that I thought was not discussed enough after the deathrite ban. It lost nothing in the banning other than its worst matchup (grixis delver) and a slightly unfavored matchup (storm). I think this will be the deck to beat going forward. Additionally, the Japanese are also notorious for their love of show and tell. What cards are important to have against this deck?

Do you disagree with anything that I have written above?

The only thing I disagree with -- if you think (or hope, like me hehe) that Storm is dead then you are sadly mistaken, my friend. Otherwise agree and I think Grixis can still be tier 1.


Hi all,

As the author of this deck's Primer, I wanted to have a quick discussion on how to proceed with this thread. With DRS gone, the future of this deck is certainly going to be different. I already added a note in the history section that this will bring significant implications. It may become Grixis focused or BUG, or maybe both will exist in some form. I suppose the question is, should we keep this thread as a place to discuss these new versions or create new ones and leave this one as a small piece of Legacy history?

I realize the meta is in flux and will take some time to stabilize. If we are to keep this one, I could potentially try to update the primer with new information and lists. I also wouldn't be opposed to someone else taking the mantle in a new thread as I will be busying taking a new job in the coming months. Please chime in on your thoughts. It is sad that Czech Pile was such a short-lived deck, but I am happy that I was able to contribute to the community in some way, and I hope that the deck adapts and continues to exist in some shape or other.

I think that the name Czech Pile (and thus the thread) should remain based around UBx(x) value based control as it has always been. I think Grixis will be overall both stronger than BUG and closer to the original archetype (like you said, BUG lists are gonna start sticking in Hierarchs, and Goyfs and get pretty green -- we are closer to UBx with a very light splash) but really, time will tell.

I would say you can have BUG Leovold and Grixis Control (Czech Pile if you still want to call it that; I typically love funky decknames and miss getting to play with Solar Flare, Structure & Force, URzatron etc; but for whatever reason never loved Czech Pile haha -- that's neither here nor there though) as the two branches of what was originally 4CC/Cz Pile, basically.


Here's an interview with Tomas Mar (the creator of Czech Pile) at MKM that was taking place yesterday and today.
He talks about the DRS banning and the future of the Legacy meta and the future of BUG / Grixis / 4C Control.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhK9B4SoUkc

Some general points he mentioned:
- Combo is great at the moment, together with DnT, Miracles, Lands and Aggro Loam.
- He also proposes that RUG isn't that great anymore (with him having played it a lot in the past as well)
- SFM is outdated and those decks usually aren't fantastic vs combo. He proposes Blade decks will fall off soon.

Grixis / BUG / 4C Control:
- DRS wasn't actually all that important in the grand scheme of things and he is pretty sure decks like these can still thrive.
- From what I can gather, he feels that 4 colors might still be mandatory, depending on how much Miracles is present. Decay and Life from the Loam will be big players in these kinds of decks, since he feels that Decay and Red Blasts are both really important in that matchup. Loam will have to be a crutch without DRS.
- Strix is going to be good in this meta, which is one of the reasons why RUG Delver will struggle more; RUG has gained nothing new and decks like these defenitely have gained a lot through the years.

I don't know what Tomas exactly played at MKM, but I'm sure lists will be posted soon enough and we can have a look at what direction he's taken.

At work but definitely going to watch this later. Totally agree that DRS wasn't that important to 4CC. It was more of a necessary evil but I think the deck is just as powerful without it while playing in a meta without it. It was a lightning rod for removal and the banning now makes removal very bad against us (love when my Strix gets StP'd :D), and now we can play 4 Thoughtseize maindeck and not feel bad about it; it's my favorite turn 1 play in this list now, and also just in general.

Interesting take on the still needing 4 colors though and not sure I agree there. The main appeal to playing green was basically T2 Leovold. Since we can't do that any more, I don't see needing to further stretch our landbase just to play what will basically end up a singleton Decay maindeck and maybe another (one, two TOPS) sideboard; and Life from the Loam isn't really where I want to be at, that seems kind of random. Besides enchantment hate in Decay, everything that we would consider running from Green (Sylvan Library, Ancient Grudge, what am I missing?) is pretty easily replaced IMO. If you're that terrified of Counterbalance (I'm not, really) then running straight Grixis with a few EE's somewhere in the 75 (some are even running them maindeck, probably in my Toxic Deluge slot) is just better against the field while still being decent in those scenarios.

Do agree that Strix is still amazing, probably my favorite card in the deck (besides Thoughtseize :D)


This weekend I played a list similar to the one MEWTU posted above.

Main:


2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Hydroblast
2 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Dead / Gone
1 Diabolic Edict
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Marsh Casualties


It was a 4 rounds + top 4 tournament. I went 2-1-1 in the Swiss rounds, won the first match of the top 4 and then we split the final.

Overall the deck performed very well! It's very good against lands, d&t and, red prison decks, which are about 60% of my local meta lol

I will probably add 1 or 2 Engineered Explosives in the side to deal with enchantments, as I lost to a RIP+Helm combo and got a draw against an Academy Rector / curses deck. I might also add another Thoughtseize and remove the Inquisition of Kozilek.

Nice! What'd you play against?

How'd you like the MD Deluge/Edict? Those are kind of the slots I'm most unsure of since they're polarizing cards (either very good or nearly useless like I mentioned above).

What'd you bring Dead/Gone in against? Do you think it was better than just another Edict?

You went pretty heavy on GY hate in the sideboard, did that pay off?

Agreed on TS vs IoK - I'm of the opinion that it's basically always incorrect to play IoK over TS in Legacy. The potential risk of the opponent having a blockbuster card that we need to remove (Jace, Ad Nauseam, FoW, the list goes on) is just too high, and with the lower lifeloss in the format due to duals vs shocks the pain is negligible in most cases.

I was on vacation last week but will probably mess with the deck online at some points this week and then playing it with the gang on Sunday - will report back with thoughts and results. Going to make some minor tweaks to my list, probably try to squeeze in another creature (likely Snapcaster Mage) in the maindeck, and maybe mess with those two flex slots I've been mentioning. And some slight sideboard tweaks.

[Politta]

Nice! What'd you play against?

How'd you like the MD Deluge/Edict? Those are kind of the slots I'm most unsure of since they're polarizing cards (either very good or nearly useless like I mentioned above).

What'd you bring Dead/Gone in against? Do you think it was better than just another Edict?

You went pretty heavy on GY hate in the sideboard, did that pay off?

Agreed on TS vs IoK - I'm of the opinion that it's basically always incorrect to play IoK over TS in Legacy. The potential risk of the opponent having a blockbuster card that we need to remove (Jace, Ad Nauseam, FoW, the list goes on) is just too high, and with the lower lifeloss in the format due to duals vs shocks the pain is negligible in most cases.



I played against Mono Red Prision (2-0), Academy Rector / curses (1-1), RIP+Helm combo (0-2), and D&T (2-0). In the top four I played against another D&T (2-0) and split the finals with the guy that was playing Academy Rector / curses.

The graveyard hate was because the week before we had 2 dredge players + 2/3 reanimator players! None of them showed up this time tho lol

I really liked the main deck edict, but I might replace the deluge with the Dead/Gone that I'm bringing in almost every match lol It's useful agains lands kid of decks, but also against d&t, maverick, tcc decks etc

[btm10]

Interesting take on the still needing 4 colors though and not sure I agree there. The main appeal to playing green was basically T2 Leovold. Since we can't do that any more, I don't see needing to further stretch our landbase just to play what will basically end up a singleton Decay maindeck and maybe another (one, two TOPS) sideboard; and Life from the Loam isn't really where I want to be at, that seems kind of random. Besides enchantment hate in Decay, everything that we would consider running from Green (Sylvan Library, Ancient Grudge, what am I missing?) is pretty easily replaced IMO. If you're that terrified of Counterbalance (I'm not, really) then running straight Grixis with a few EE's somewhere in the 75 (some are even running them maindeck, probably in my Toxic Deluge slot) is just better against the field while still being decent in those scenarios.


I basically took the opposite approach to yours - cutting Red (my lists always skewed a little greener than most anyway, never went to 3 Kolaghan's Command or below 2 Decay) and have been very happy with it. I'm on striaght BUG with 4 one mana discard spells (3/1 TS/IoK) and 2 Pierce. Tarmogoyf is an absolute hammer in the current meta and closes games very quickly against Loam, Lands, and combo while locking Delver decks off of the ground. The big change BUG has to make is to focus on being more efficient and less focused on value (without going quite so far as being a Delver deck). You do give up some equity against Jace, but Leo is a solid answer to Jace and Painful Truths and Sylvan Library help you keep up. I'll add Loam to the list of stuff to test, especially if I'm going to try a 4c list.

[MEWTU]

I played against Mono Red Prision (2-0), Academy Rector / curses (1-1), RIP+Helm combo (0-2), and D&T (2-0). In the top four I played against another D&T (2-0) and split the finals with the guy that was playing Academy Rector / curses.

The graveyard hate was because the week before we had 2 dredge players + 2/3 reanimator players! None of them showed up this time tho lol

I really liked the main deck edict, but I might replace the deluge with the Dead/Gone that I'm bringing in almost every match lol It's useful agains lands kid of decks, but also against d&t, maverick, tcc decks etc

ahh haha word.

Yeah the Edict has been nice for me, and same exact thought on the Deluge. When it's good, it's REALLY good, like game endingly good -- but when you draw it vs like Miracles or Lands or whatever you feel like a dummy. I actually played around with the slot abit last night which I'll highlight below.

I like the versatility of Dead/Gone, that's a cool idea.


I basically took the opposite approach to yours - cutting Red (my lists always skewed a little greener than most anyway, never went to 3 Kolaghan's Command or below 2 Decay) and have been very happy with it. I'm on striaght BUG with 4 one mana discard spells (3/1 TS/IoK) and 2 Pierce. Tarmogoyf is an absolute hammer in the current meta and closes games very quickly against Loam, Lands, and combo while locking Delver decks off of the ground. The big change BUG has to make is to focus on being more efficient and less focused on value (without going quite so far as being a Delver deck). You do give up some equity against Jace, but Leo is a solid answer to Jace and Painful Truths and Sylvan Library help you keep up. I'll add Loam to the list of stuff to test, especially if I'm going to try a 4c list.

Word, interesting take. I played against a similar list last night. Luckily didn't have too much trouble with Goyf due to Strix and Push/Snapcasters.

Some random testing results from last night (just from tournament practice room as I was drinking while messing with the list between matches and didn't feel like running a league, so kind of meaningless hehe but I'm bored at work)

I played around with the Blood Moons in the sideboard and the Deluge in the maindeck, ended up adding another Lili to the main and moving the Deluge + 2 more sweepers (Deluge #2 and EE) to the sideboard. I also added a Spell Pierce in there somehow but don't remember exactly how haha. And went -1 Preordain +1 Snapcaster Mage maindeck which I think I really like.

Played vs Reanimator and got absolutely ranched. Game 1 he mulliganed to 4 and still was able to reanimate the big white Thalia dude (forget the name) which I held off for a while with a Strix but just got flooded out and eventually he reanimated an Elesh Norn and beat me down. Game 2 I had an interesting decision and opted for T1 Nihil Spellbomb, T2 Thoughtseize (rather than other way around), which I think was correct but he topdecked exactly the Reanimate to allow him to use every single card in his hand to reanimate a Griselbrand. Maybe I played it slightly wrong, idk. Basically just drew very poorly in these games with few counterspells and hate cards, don't think it's a GREAT matchup though but certainly winnable.

Then I played BUG Control like btm10 mentioned above. Game 1 went long with both of us blasting each others' hands (he was heavy on Hymn) and killing our threats), we ended with like 15 cards in our deck each. At one point he played a Leovold, I untapped and .... brainstormed. Heh. I blame the beer. Lost that one super closely, feel I would've won if I hadn't punted that (I had Snapcaster for Fatal Push in my hand at the time of the BStorm). Then easily won game 2 and 3. Game 2 he tried to do some stuff with Life from the Loam, idk it seems pretty irrelevant and I just eventually resolved a Jace or something and killed or countered every single thing he ever played, game 3 went about the same and I beat him down with an Angler. Lili Last Hope into -2 to grab a Strix or SCM is so amazing against Abrupt Decay, Red Elemental Blast was really nice, and they have next to zero answers for Angler. I think we're just favored in this matchup, he even had Wasteland but it wasn't that consequential (and probably not running the full 4 anyway, I'm guessing 2 or 3). Would love to test this one more as I love the grindy matchups like this, btm10 if you play MTGO we could definitely play some games some time, lmk.

Then pretty easily 2-0ed storm, so now I'm 2-2 vs the archetype and feeling a lot better than I originally was -- heavy discard, some permission plus a quick clock in Angler did the trick. I'm almost considering going to 3 Anglers but drawing 2 can be awkward.

The second Liliana was great in the BUG Control matchup and useless in the other so not yet sold on that slot. Like I said though really liked the shift to 2 Preordain 3 Snapcaster Mage and will probably stay there.

(Also let me know if these types of anecdotes aren't useful and/or interesting and I'll stop posting them and stick to true League/paper tournament posts, but I think it can be kind of fun - I enjoy reading them when other people post, anyway)

[Ahab]

Here's an interview with Tomas Mar (the creator of Czech Pile) at MKM that was taking place yesterday and today.
He talks about the DRS banning and the future of the Legacy meta and the future of BUG / Grixis / 4C Control.


What's up with the interviewer? He seems pretty annoyed. Super unprofessional.

[beta]

Looking through some Grixis list that placed well these few days:

https://mtgdecks.net/Legacy/lps-invitational-mox-boarding-house-bellevue-wa-tournament-51843
https://mtgdecks.net/Legacy/preservation-series-1k-mox-boarding-house-bellevue-tournament-51845
https://mtgdecks.net/Legacy/grand-prix-chiba-2018-%E6%97%A5%E6%9C%AC%E3%83%AC%E3%82%AC%E3%82%B7%E3%83%BC%E9%81%B8%E6%89%8B%E6%A8%A9-%E5%A4%8F-tournament-51832 (big event)

Some of the commonalities of the lists i noticed were:
3-4 Baleful Strix
3-4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to tourach
2 Jace, TMS
8 Cantrips

The interesting difference was the creatures played: TNN, Angler and even Kess.

While i agree with Tomas's view that green is very good against miracles with leovold and decay but playing early discards can circumvent cards like counterbalance or jace. Secondly, the card advantage engine has always been anchored in the grixis colours and not green (snapcaster, command and hymn).

Good to see Grixis still putting up results after drs banning. Maybe it will take a while to find the optimal list.

[RhoxWarMonk]

Secondly, the card advantage engine has always been anchored in the grixis colours and not green (snapcaster, command and hymn).


This confused me, can you please elaborate what you mean? Snapcaster is a blue card, hymn is a black card, so the only card you mentioned in that list that's Grixis is K Command, which is a fairly new card. I obviously misunderstood something :)

[NegatorITA]

This confused me, can you please elaborate what you mean? Snapcaster is a blue card, hymn is a black card, so the only card you mentioned in that list that's Grixis is K Command, which is a fairly new card. I obviously misunderstood something :)

:eyebrow: exactly
To play commands you must be on grixis colors not bugs ones

[beta]

:eyebrow: exactly
To play commands you must be on grixis colors not bugs ones

Yea what I meant was the cards giving us card advantage are all grixis in colour, or made up to be grixis. Like snap, hymn and command. I am arguing the fact that what made Czech pile strong back then was that it primarily function as a grixis deck splashing for green, and although drs is banned, we can still potentially tap on the grixis cards which was the engine for Czech pile all along.

Apologies, English isn’t my first language.:tongue:h

[RhoxWarMonk]

Yea what I meant was the cards giving us card advantage are all grixis in colour, or made up to be grixis. Like snap, hymn and command. I am arguing the fact that what made Czech pile strong back then was that it primarily function as a grixis deck splashing for green, and although drs is banned, we can still potentially tap on the grixis cards which was the engine for Czech pile all along.

Apologies, English isn’t my first language.:tongue:h

No need to apologize at all, I just misunderstood the part about k command :) I agree the value engine is certainly grixis and it's very viable but many are having some success with Bug control as well. I do think this shell is better for what the deck is trying to do though and I also feel bug is more a midrange deck right now than anything.

[NegatorITA]

Many grixis (and more miracle) in today challenge, I'm pleased by this and my new underground sea, so is time to build grixis control again? Or will fade away at the next gp?

[supachai]

Thanks Mewtu and Demolition for the feedback. Appreciate it.

Interesting perspective by Tomas Mar as well. I certainly think value-control will continue to exist in some form, and I'm perfectly okay keeping the Czech Pile thread as the primary place to discuss these new decks, even if they are different colors. Hopefully I can find some time to update the primer.

[MEWTU]

Guys I just wanted to say, on the Discord there is TONS of discussion going on. Is it even worth updating/maintaining a thread like this? I'm talking like, 10x more discussion. People chatting back and forth all day long, etc. Compare to the zero to three or so posts we get per day around here.

[CTlegacy88]

Does anyone have a link to the discord?

[DemolitionColorScheme]

Does anyone have a link to the discord?
- https://discord.gg/GuBX4wd

[DemolitionColorScheme]

Guys I just wanted to say, on the Discord there is TONS of discussion going on. Is it even worth updating/maintaining a thread like this? I'm talking like, 10x more discussion. People chatting back and forth all day long, etc. Compare to the zero to three or so posts we get per day around here.
I think it's worth to people that don't want to hop on the Discord-train. I mean, I'm active there all day (as Arafúra), but I can imagine there are still folks out there that don't use Discord or don't wanna.

[RhoxWarMonk]

Looks like Grixis Control is the most played list at the Pro Tour, with a whooping 20 entries! Sneak n Show and Eldrazi were 2 and 3 respectively.

We'll see how it does this weekend but I thought that was extremely interesting.

[DemolitionColorScheme]

Looks like Grixis Control is the most played list at the Pro Tour, with a whooping 20 entries! Sneak n Show and Eldrazi were 2 and 3 respectively.

We'll see how it does this weekend but I thought that was extremely interesting.
Where did you see this exactly? Is there any listing or footage?