Contact WotC?

[Crimhead]

So I've finally decided to contact WotC and make a case/plea for Legacy support. Specifically, to request either dual lands be removed from the RL or for substitutes with trivial draw backs to be printed.

Any ideas how and whom I should contact. I refuse to send a Twit because I prefer to use words.

Thanks.

[mistercakes]

perhaps in addition we should have some kind of petition where there is a large showing of support. dunno if will help, but i don't think it can hurt at this point. when a dual land in the US is selling via SSG and CFB for the price of a new video game system, there is just no entry for new players.

[Julian23]

Just contact them via Twitter and ask whom to talk to. It's the tried and true way to get into contact with whoever would be the right person to talk you. If you refuse to establish contact via their primary communication tool, don't expect us to do the work for you.

[apple713]

So I've finally decided to contact WotC and make a case/plea for Legacy support. Specifically, to request either dual lands be removed from the RL or for substitutes with trivial draw backs to be printed.

Any ideas how and whom I should contact. I refuse to send a Twit because I prefer to use words.

Thanks.

i would be interested to hear what they have to say, but its highly unlikely that you'll even get a response.

What case could you possibly make that they would even care about? Seriously this is your biggest problem. You wont be able to convince them that you could run their business better than them. So its unlikely that any argument for it should be entertained. You could get a petition going but think of their customer base. Your petition would have to be massive, think big like 100,000 for them to even blink at it.

I think that the best argument would be something along the lines as a shareholder. The company has a fiduciary duty to the shareholders. If the reserve list somehow breaches that duty then you could argue for its removal. Hasbro owns WOTC as a subsidiary. So hasbro would have the duty i believe. I guess WOTC would have a duty to its shareholders also, but since its not publicly traded you couldnt be a shareholder (since hasbro would hold all the shares).

[Crimhead]

Just contact them via Twitter and ask whom to talk to.
That’s a good idea.


If you refuse to establish contact via their primary communication tool, don't expect us to do the work for you.
Easy tiger!

I'm not asking for anybody to do any work.

Just looking for opinions - do I send to customer service, MaRo, some other personality? A lkttle advice is no more work than a little snark.

I am happy enough to use twitter to find this out (again, capital idea). It's just that my message won't fit within the character limit allowed in a single twit, so I require another point of contact.

[Crimhead]

You could get a petition going but think of their customer base. Your petition would have to be massive, think big like 100,000 for them to even blink at it.
I'm hoping the 100 000 subscibers to Legacy Reddit have already caught their eye. Plus I figure I have nothing to lose.



i would be interested to hear what they have to say, but its highly unlikely that you'll even get a response.
Here's a draft:


Thank you for taking the time to read my letter.

I am a first and foremost a Legacy player (don't shoot). I play other formats, but mostly Legacy (which I love best of all). I am happy to see WotC has ramped up support for Legacy. But I believe more can and should be done to facilitate growth. Please here me out!


Why Support Legacy?

Abstractly, Legacy is a source of awe and mystery to newer players. Even if most will never play it, a thriving (Legacy) community will highlight the depth and proud history of the game (which are a big part of its draw compared to other TCGs).

More concretely, the answer is money. There are droves of players looking keenly at Legacy (you need only check reddit to see new prospective players posting on a daily basis), and people are certainly willing to pay to get in! But if entry costs are prohibitive, format growth will be minimal.

It's understood that you can make more money selling to Standard players (the nature of Standard entails more frequent purchases). However, I believe that by putting too many eggs in this basket, you are missing out. Here's why:

- Most players will not play Standard forever.

People grow tired of their cards rotating year after year. New players become enfranchised players, and they will want to own their favourite decks for the long term. Otherwise they might abandon MTG altogether

- Legacy is a unique experience.

Standard (and Modern) are very friendly to what most players want. But some long for more. Legacy is basically the last format where we can find fast combo, good counter-spells, deck manipulation, and prison. There is a market for this sort of game, and shame not to tap it.

- Legacy players do spend money.

Apart from new Legacy playable cards (Leovold, etc) and non RL reprints, many of us dabble in other formats. If Legacy were to die in a local community, some would stick to these other formats, but others (like myself) would likely lose interest in MTG altogether.

- Eternal Masters.

These (as well as Conspiracy and Commander products) are an excellent source of revenue. But these will sell much better if people have an eternal format in which to actually play the cards! To this end, Legacy must be (reasonably) accessible.


We Need Duals!

The biggest barrier to entry is by far the cost of a Legacy mana-base. While there are a few decks which do not use duals, these are very limited and not what everybody wants to play. The soaring cost of ABUR duals is probably the biggest barrier inhibiting the format.

I am well aware that many decks rely on other RL cards in order to function, but dual lands alone would open up a world of decks, allowing most or all prospective players to choose a deck that suits their tastes.


The Reserved List

I am NOT going to ask you to abolish the reserved list. While I would be 100% in favour of this (despite personally owning ~5K worth of RL cards), I am currently asking for a compromise instead:

- Remove the dual lands from the list.

Cards have been removed in the past, so there is a precedent for this. Also duals have been recognized for special status in the past (old extended). Arguably they have always been misfits due to the heavy reprinting in Revised edition.

- Print Substitutes.

This is a more moderate approach. And note that (unlike Cradle or LED), duals 5-8 will not create power level issues.

Note that I mean substitutes with absolutely no draw back applicable in Legacy. Drawbacks could easily be made which apply only to mechanics specific to other formats (such as the command zone, the monarch, etc).

While the "spirit" of the RL has been cited in the past, fortunately this an elusive and undefined concept. Duals which function differently in other formats will be different cards in every sense.


TLDR

Legacy is the best - loved by many and sought by many more. Please find a way to supply the lands needed to play so you can rightly profit from this phenomenal game.

[apple713]

unlikely to catch their attention. While well written, its nothing they don't already know. GL tho. Might make the argument that abolishing the reserve list wouldn't harm any customers because THEIR customers didnt buy the product from them at the time it was established. It would only harm third party customers, people who bought from places like SCG after the list was in place. Furthermore, counterfeits of older cards are significantly easier to make and obtain since they dont have WOTC protective seal on them and puts the authenticity of the events they do support in jeopardy.

If they did reprint reserve list cards they might make certain stipulations. Such as no original artwork, such as to preserve original cards value.

Point being that they have heard your argument. It's the same argument thats been happening for years. They arnt going to wake up one day and change their mind based on something they already know.

[Volgaris]

They don't even have to remove duals from the Reserve List - they could do something like errata the shock lands to function as normal duals while in a Legacy setting, or print something like:

Island Plains
When this land enters the battlefield, if your Commander is on the battlefield, draw a card and gain 3 life

...or something like that. Acts like a normal dual in a Legacy game, adds a little to commander games, and isn't a "snow dual" so it is actually functionally different.

Maybe with the increase in GPs and appearance at the Pro Tour they have a plan? I'm hoping so.

Also, if WotC reads this, you can totally use that.

Please.

We need more duals.

[thefringthing]

This is not worth the effort. You're not telling them anything they don't already know.

[Crimhead]

unlikely to catch their attention.
True. Then again, if everyone who feels the same sends a letter it'll probably catch something. Just doing my part.



uPoint being that they have heard your argument. It's the same argument thats been happening for years.
I think they had previously dismissed it. During the 20th anniversary, Standard was experiencing explosive growth and WotC were all in on Modern. They were basically ready to sweep Legacy under the rug - they didn't seem to think they needed it.

Those formats have proved to be turbulent, and growth to be unsustainable. Maybe they could use a reminder? My intention is mostly to let my voice (as a customer) be heard. But I prefer to present it as being in their own interests. It didn't take long to write, so no harm done if they blow me off.


GL tho.
Thanks! Good luck to any of us who want more duals in the pool. :)


This is not worth the effort.
Not much effort now - paste and send.

A lot of people chomping at the bit to get into Legacy (but scared by prices). If they are already getting letters, one more couldn't hurt.

I'm off work with an injury, so I have lots of time.

[Fox]

There's what 4 iterations of any given dual land (original, shock, cycle dual, and if you have 2 basics etb untapped) - the first three of those see play in legacy. Wizards hates proxies, but is there any real problem with an event under comp REL saying Sunken Hollow is considered Underground Sea? If you're an aspiring legacy player who goes to GPs, you could probably afford 1-2 blue duals by skipping a GP...and if that's the only place WotC apparently wants to run comp REL then it seems like a pretty easy workaround for the RL on the topic of duals.

[Jander78]

(who are trapped by rotation into constantly buying product)
I don't see this being worth the effort, but if you're going to send an inquiry letter, I'd definitely remove the product bashing. If they manage to read that far down your letter, they'll stop right there.

[Crimhead]

I ended up sending a stupid little twit after all:


@maro254 - Takes Duals of RL or print real subs. - Please never "fun police" Legacy! - Make utility lands good again (new Deserts suck).

At least he'll probably read it.

[raudo]

If they take something out from RL the whole RL is of course ruined.

I like the list and hope they keep it forever. It makes Legacy great that some cards are hard to find and get.

[BeTeP]

Hi man! Everyone says that this idea is no good, that wotc is already knows about it. While it is true, i think you all we need is to write them those letters again and again. And when this problem will be disscussed everywhere and those letters gets about 100 000 likes or more, then they probably do something. If we do nothing so are they. And it is bad solution, noone gets profit about it.
So - keep working, maybe someday they wake up and do the right thing.
Miracles dominates format for years, but they look at it at the end and banned top. Maybe it took another 3-4 years to read those letters and do something right.

[Crimhead]

If they take something out from RL the whole RL is of course ruined.


Sol Ring?

I think every uncommon from ABU that was once on the list has been removed.

[Julian23]

They have tinkered with the RL list a couple of times. The most important change was when they removed all Uncommons from it.

I think they also accidentally actually functionally reprinted a random, horrible card from it not too long ago.

[Dice_Box]

Reverberate?

[apple713]

Reverberate?

yeah, with fork being on the list.

With a slight change like that it would easy to reprint cards on the reserve list. Duals for example could be like.

Underground Ocean

Swamp-Island Land

T: U or B

While this card is play, it loses basic land type swamp and island.

[Crimhead]

Reverberate?
Wasn't a functionally identical card.

Fork creates a red copy of the target spell.

[Dice_Box]

It was close enough that it started a shit storm that ended with a further tightening of the list. The "Spirit" of the list was introduced after.

[ParkerLewis]

To OP : don't listen to the naysayers and do it. Just like with voting, every gesture matters in the end. I like our chances of a healthier Legacy way better in a world where WotC continues to receive daily mail on the subject of card availability than in a world where they receive no word on it ever because every potential initiative as small as it may be is discouraged and stifled by others who have in effect already given up.

And sincerely cheers for your contribution to the format's long-term health.

[Crimhead]

Everyone knows that something is impossible to achieve until you get a naive she does not know and invents
A. Einstein

[Lemnear]

Please ... everybody knows that the best way to adress issues is a giant sign on WotCs parking lot

[Claymore]

Seems contacting Hasbro and telling them of all the money their struggling franchise is leaving on the table would be a more effective route these days.

[MGB]

Please ... everybody knows that the best way to adress issues is a giant sign on WotCs parking lot

s/sign/steaming hot dump

[Crimhead]

Seems contacting Hasbro and telling them of all the money their struggling franchise is leaving on the table would be a more effective route these days.

Maybe I should by $50 in stock and write my concerns as a share holder!

[apple713]

Maybe I should by $50 in stock and write my concerns as a share holder!

as a shareholder you do have certain legal rights. I dont know the exact details but youd prob have a better chance that way.

[frogczar]

I applaud this. I completely agree with everything in your letter/note to WotC.

Easiest solution is to just revise the list and remove the Dual lands. They should never have been taken out of the game going all the way back to fourth edition. Probably one of the biggest mistakes in the history of Magic.

Thank you.

[Mr. Safety]

I like your letter, quite a bit. The best part is that it is succinct, ie they will probably read the whole thing. Long, drawn out letters show passion but really don't grab attention very well. Good balance. I also think one of the best ways to support this would be for as many of us as possible copy/paste this message (with your permission of course) and send it in the same way. One letter like this may not get their attention, but 100+ very well might. Persistence seems like the key to success in this realm I think. This makes it easy to support, essentially a few clicks of the mouse, and we can get a pile of these to WotC.

Their approach has been to attempt to make different duals with unique angles (Seachrome Coast, Glacial Fortress, Temple of Enlightenment, Irrigated Farmland, etc.) all of which work fantastic in a Standard card pool with a set amount of cards. As you say, players want more, and they want to do some powerful things in the game. Legacy is actually (my opinion) a much more balanced format than Modern for older set formats. It has interaction, broken combo, and prison. It doesn't really have a pure agro deck (like zoo) anymore, but that seems natural considering the depth of the card pool. Modern is broken combo vs. tempo, all day long (gross generalization, I know, trust me, I know. I play a lot of modern lol.)

Give us duals, or give the game death. - Patrick Henry

[Ace/Homebrew]

Maybe I should by $50 in stock and write my concerns as a share holder!
Voicing your concerns as a shareholder definitely feels like it would send a stronger message.

Appears a share costs $115 currently. :rolleyes:

[bwah?]

Seems that the reserved list is no longer what guarantees value retention.

Look at the value of basically any rare from 93/94. Many reprinted plenty of times (Jayemdae Tome, Winter Orb, and Wrath of God are great examples) but the A/B/U are now worth absurd amounts mostly because of a fringe/unsanctioned (but fun!) format.

Granted, influenced by "MTG Finance", but no worse than duals which are used in a format on the Pro Tour.

[Crimhead]

I also think one of the best ways to support this would be for as many of us as possible copy/paste this message (with your permission of course) and send it in the same way.

I have no objections whatsoever.

[Captain Hammer]

If they printed the opposite of Sunken Hollow, ie. it an island swamp that comes into play tapped only if you already have 3 or more nonbasic lands in play, it would see tons of play in legacy and modern.

http://i.tcgplayer.com/104305_200w.jpg

Why not print the inverted version of this card? ETB tapped if you have 3 or more nonbasic lands in play already.

Most legacy decks operate on a low enough curve that tops off at 3 and wouldn't suffer from playing such a land, but it is still inferior to underground sea, just not in a way that will matter much in the vast majority of situations.

Any set with those lands would sell a ridiculous amount of product as well.

[LMental]

Something tells me a company like WotC does quite rigorous market analysis through tracking sales, tournament attendance, social media chatter + big data analysis before deciding which formats to support (and if they don't, they're stupid). Thus is seems unlikely that even a few hundred letters will change their view on this (they might make a PR concession if the Legacy community is sufficiently loud and angry, however).

[Cartesian]

Good luck with this, and thank you.

[walked]

I went ahead and sent your letter in. Cant hurt.

[Lord Seth]

Something tells me a company like WotC does quite rigorous market analysis through tracking sales, tournament attendance, social media chatter + big data analysis before deciding which formats to support (and if they don't, they're stupid). Thus is seems unlikely that even a few hundred letters will change their view on this (they might make a PR concession if the Legacy community is sufficiently loud and angry, however).Oh right, the "rigorous market analysis" that resulted in Standard environments so disliked that they had to, over the course of just half a year, ban cards three different times. The last time we saw bans that rapid was Urza's Saga block.

[Humphrey]

snow-covered duals. i need them

[Crimhead]

Oh right, the "rigorous market analysis" that resulted in Standard environments so disliked that they had to, over the course of just half a year, ban cards three different times. The last time we saw bans that rapid was Urza's Saga block.

To be fair, I think this was mostly a failing on design and development to create the intended environment.

[Lord Seth]

To be fair, I think this was mostly a failing on design and development to create the intended environment.Not really. They've constantly defended things like the nerfing of answers as being what players want according to market research.

In fact, if you examine the numbers, development did a surprisingly good job balancing things out. Sure, UW Aggro was the top deck, but it wasn't nearly as dominant as the top deck was in the last few Standard environments (compare Collected Company, Abzan, and Monoblack Devotion, which were constantly at 30% or more of the metagame). And there was legitimate representation of various strategies, with quite viable aggro, control, and combo(!) decks. The only real issue from a metagame standpoint was how much play Smuggler's Copter was seeing, but it still fit into a variety of strategies and decks.

The problem is that the format they created, while actually reasonably balanced by Standard standards, was also one that players really disliked to the the point they were banning things despite the fact, again, the metagame from an objective standpoint was better than it had been for the last 1-3 years. They did a stellar job doing exactly what they claimed the market research said players wanted, and players rejected it en masse.

True, there were some more legitimate issues with development, like CopyCat or having to ban Aetherworks Marvel later on; the former they just completely missed, and the latter came about because their initial group of bannings was actually not all that thought through (the bannings of Reflector Mage, Smuggler's Copter, and Emrakul was practically tailor-made to ensure Aetherworks Marvel would become the best deck, and the only reason it didn't was because CopyCat distracted everyone for a while). But those came after the format that caused them to ban several cards.