[Podcast] Eternal Durdles. Getting the Banned back together.

[Dice_Box]

I have not seen this cast mentioned here before, I quite enjoy it too. With the talk from the Lone Star boys, then this popping up in my feed, it's been quite the week for Ban talk. I thought I would post this up here because the talk is not about what should be banned but the new topic that is picking up speed "Why are things banned". Have a listen, it's worth it. Find it here (https://player.fm/series/eternal-durdles/episode-49getting-the-banned-back-together).

Oh and Zac: "You know what, screw you guys, Brainstorm's gotta go." Truth. (Please listen to the cast before any of you run with that comment.)

[Megadeus]

I disagree with much of this cast. I think the talk of pillars in legacy is dumb. In vintage the pillars are basically cards that essentially represents an archetype, and pillars generally can't be played together (because of the vastly differing strategies they represent) if I'm not mistaken. If you tried to apply that to legacy you're basically brainstorm and chalice if so. The only other thing maybe possible is port (since lands and DnT generally don't play Brainstorm or chalice) but even then lands plays chalice at times in the board too. I just think that the idea of untouchable pillars in this format is dumb. I also am curious to see the difference in opinions on whether or not brainstorm should be banned based on how long a player has been playing the format. Based solely on people I know I feel like older players that have played legacy before it was 70+% of the top decks playing brainstorm realize how unhealthy of a card it is. Also I feel like the people that say it's untouchable also are far less likely to have played a deck without to card to much success

[Gheizen64]

Legacy didn't really ever had a "pillar" metagame, more like a package of cards that were pretty unique to each decks, like the old trifecta:

- thresh
- goblin
- storm

Like, threshold cards and the cantrip + daze +fow package. Then the DR+ LED+IT package. Then the lackey+30 goblins etc...

Nowadays, it's got even more blurried.
I'd argue SDT/balance was a pillar that played completely different from the rest of the meta decks, while sporting a lot of the same cards. One reason why i was against SDT ban, as now it all seems to be more tempo-ish oriented and samey, the deck needed a weakening, but not to be killed in its core identity (prison-control).
Survival is another card that could count as a pillar-ish card, since it can't really be played with either the cantrip cartel, storm cards, chalice, or whatever else, it require a pretty specific kind of deck. But it's banned so w/e.

Legacy has also, for really obvious reasons, a lot of build-around-me cards that can't really be called pillars because they don't put out enough numbers, but are still good decks, see Elves! nowadays or Goblins some years ago. SnT, as much as i dislike the card, is also considerably another pillar but don't put out the numbers, luckily.

[Gheizen64]

Also damn that first Extended GP mention is giving me the feels. I played so much extended back in the days just to be able to still play with the dual lands :cry:

Also Kird Ape banned was such garbage.

[Stuart]

Thanks for posting this, Dice - I wasn't familiar with this cast.

I thought this was a very solid episode, and appreciated framing everything both with historical context and a bigger picture look at why the banned list exists. However, I'll just say that I didn't find Zac's argument for Brainstorm compelling: "Well, we're all here to play Brainstorm so it shouldn't be banned" is pretty hollow.

[maharis]

Thanks Dice, I appreciate it. I'm Nate from this cast. Been waiting to see if we'd pop up here organically before I started posting. Glad you guys liked the way we approached the topic.


I disagree with much of this cast... [snip for space]

Sorry you disagree but hopefully you still enjoyed. I hope you understand from our conversations here that I definitely agree that the cantrip shell is overpowered and crowding out other interesting interactions. (I also said that on the cast).

I am by no means married to Brainstorm as a "pillar" card in the format. But I am trying to be realistic about what might actually happen in the format. With 70% of decks playing Brainstorm, banning it would be dropping a neutron bomb on the format. As much as I would be more excited to play Legacy after that, I think many others would take a break of some length. I worry about the health of the format if that were to happen.

Further, the issue isn't limited to just Brainstorm the card in my opinion. The raw power level of individual cards in the format means that while BS has some very strong/unique corner cases, in most others, Ponder/Preordain would be able to support many of the goodstuff strategies while the loss of Brainstorm would mean more synergy-oriented decks would not be able to keep up. Storm is my go-to for this point.

Honestly, if BS, DRS, and True-Name were all banned Monday, I'm not sure blue fair decks still wouldn't be the best things to be doing. The remaining cantrips would still be on color with Snap and Leovold and the other OP blue creatures, they would still pitch to Force, they would still fuel delve and trigger Pyromancer/Mentor.

The reason Brainstorm has gotten so much better over the years is because of the support it's received from synergistic printings. The fact that blue wedges got Delve and Prowess in Khans and the others got fucking Raid and Outlast was practically what drove me to acquire blue cards. I don't think those mechanics were designed with Legacy in mind, but the fact remains that as long as blue is the spell color, the ceiling for a playable card in the color is lower because of all the spell synergies. Leovold being blue was a dagger. Kess being the only card worth a shit in the new Commander set similar but less so.

If Wizards ever actually wants to take seriously the cantrip saturation in this format, it's going to require a series of "weaning" bans, plus new printing, plus potential unbannings. When I say "weaning" bans I mean they take out the payoff cards, even stuff as innocuous as Gurmag Angler, then some lower-level cantrips (Probe is begging for this I think).

I don't think they are very interested in that, as we discussed -- they seem to see Legacy as a blue/spell format. I'm not sure what we can do about that, but I am going to keep advocating for non-blue strategies as an important part of Legacy.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Stuart]

The fact that blue wedges got Delve and Prowess in Khans and the others got fucking Raid and Outlast was practically what drove me to acquire blue cards.

The imbalance is cause you're conspicuously leaving Dash out of the equation. Mardu Strike Leader kicked Demon Stompy straight up to tier 1.

[MorphBerlin]

Ban Probe, leave Brainstorm alone

[Megadeus]

Maharis I agree. I do believe that blue good stuff decks would still be the best in the format, however Brainstorm is just far and away better than the other two. Ponder/Preordain are very good, but BS being able to swap cards from your hand back into your deck is pretty unique in terms of abilities and is the main difference in power level and what sets it above the others. I just think that at this point it provides this powerful effect for far too efficient of a cost (compared to like Jace 0 ability at 4 mana). Brainstorms ability to put cards back is why decks got to run all the clunky shit like a bunch of Terminus and Jace's, and such. I think ponder/preordain are much closer to the power level of the current format. The efficiency of threats has gotten to the point that I don't feel like the card can stick around for the format to be healthy. I mean really the format is Play brainstorm or play chalice/Thalia too fight it. I guess dark depths combo is in there too but in corner cases. People always point to elves, but I don't see much elves these days except in corner cases. Honestly I think the format is too far gone in terms of dumb broken shit personally. Griselchimp, True Name, Probe, Deathrite. It would take a rash of bans imo to make the format feel like it's somewhat balanced. Between Innistrad block, New Phyrexia, and RTR the format got completely turned on its head


Also I agree that the "don't ban brainstorm because this is the brainstorm format" is incredibly weak and shortsighted. And the people who argue this are the same ones who always drop the #SkillIntensive #GoPlayModern

[Dice_Box]

I think Blue has been the best colour to play without equal since Goblins died. At this point looking for any balance in Colour in legacy is like looking for balance in Fox News. You either agree with it or you don't, but the situations not changing.

Don't ban Brainstorm because Legacy is the last place you can play it is actually untrue. You can play it with Gush in Pauper. Delver is quite strong there too. But that said, I actually feel it is a real argument. "Don't ban it because it's liked" is a reason I feel, at least it is what seems to be the thinking at Wizards. The wish to see it go is not as high as other cards, so they will not rock the boat and take out something that might cause people to really leave the format. It might, it's not causing explicit harm to Legacy the way Top/CB were. (ie you can point at those two cards and see the problems they caused in gameplay) I know this is odd to say about a card that is the most played of any card, in any format as far as I know but, its strength these days is in its stealth. It does little itself. Its "just" a cantrip.

Here is a question that we do not ask often, but it is worth thinking about:
How many people quit because of Brainstorm? I do not think the number is that high. People where leaving thanks to Top, that one I know, but Brainstorm itself? Few I bet.

Now: How many would leave if Brainstorm was taken out? I would say a few. More than have left because its in the format. Would that impact an SCG event? Likely no, people still want to play and will move around to do so. Will that impact a local legacy even with 14 regulars? Yea. You take say 3 people out of that 14, thats a real issue.

Thats not to say I do not think the merits in removing the card outweigh the costs, I want to see it gone. But there are unasked and unanswered questions on this topic that I feel may hold some thinking in Wizards. At least I hope they do. I would really hate to learn that a sign really was the last straw for a card because the outcry was just that bad, and it will take us getting to that point again to be seen and heard again. But I may be wrong, it may be true that the B/R list in Legacy these days is more a PR tool than a format regulation one. With action only taken when it is required due to optics and pacification of online anger.

[Gheizen64]

It's a buried horse nowadays, but yeah the "you can't ban BS because people just play Ponder" is a slippery slope. Being just another blue spell in the shell didn't stop Treasure cruise and DTT from being banned. Being a "blue format" didn't save them and shouldn't save BS. Having BS free with SotF , Earthcraft, Twist and Recruiter banned is a joke.

[MorphBerlin]

I don't see how fair decks that don't cheat on mana will be able to conpete with all the Tomb, Chalice, Blood Moon, Dark Ritual, chrome mox, petal apes when they don't get the benefit of more concistency. You trade power for consicenty and the ability to fine tune your deck with 1 and 2-ofs that answer all the different threats these one-dimensional decks pose.

@Dice box: our local has like 6-14 players. My bet is on more than 3 people. I would gueess, that we would loose 50% in the short turn (I would defenitly leave). Because alot of people dont have the card pool to try new decks or just switch over to something new. And 3-7 people is so low, it would not fire reglulary, cause even more people to leave. And this quickly you swiped it away.

I guess y'all just wanna see the world burn... image how many decks would be rendered unplayable...

[Barook]

I guess y'all just wanna see the world burn... image how many decks would be rendered unplayable...
Like what? Weakened =|= unplayable. Miracles even survived a SDT ban, aka its core, even though it lost its Tier 0 status that got it banned in the first place. That just makes claims that decks become unplayable without Brainstorm even more ludicrous.

The hyberboles about the necessarity of Brainstorm are unreal.

[MorphBerlin]

I don't think you ever played a blue deck seriously did you?

What's the difference between Brainstorm and Top, Ponder, Preordain. Maybe you will find out yourself. Maybe then you would realize that with a brainstorm ban miracle would have been actually dead.

[Barook]

I don't think you ever played a blue deck seriously did you?

What's the difference between Brainstorm and Top, Ponder, Preordain. Maybe you will find out yourself. Maybe then you would realize that with a brainstorm ban miracle would have been actually dead.
Nope, because I find Brainstorm disgusting.

And you still haven't answered my question: You talk about many decks. Miracles is one, I'll give you that, since Brainstorm is the other half of the deck that keeps the deck functioning. But what about the many others that you've mentioned? You're apparently an expert on the topic and I'll certainly not start to play Brainstorm decks. I'm genuinely curious.

[DarthVicious]

God forbid a blue control/tempo player should have to plan their moves a turn or two ahead of time without having access to Bullshitstorm to fix their mistakes.

Pillar of the format my ass. More like a cheat code for ten extra lives in a Contra game.

Edit: I know this horse is dead. I just felt the need to kick it once. Once.

[Dice_Box]

There is a line between talking about something and moving back to the dead horse and beating it. If we can thread that needle, I wont have to lock this.

[MorphBerlin]

Nope, because I find Brainstorm disgusting.

And you still haven't answered my question: You talk about many decks. Miracles is one, I'll give you that, since Brainstorm is the other half of the deck that keeps the deck functioning. But what about the many others that you've mentioned? You're apparently an expert on the topic and I'll certainly not start to play Brainstorm decks. I'm genuinely curious.

Yeah, who would have guessed.


Delver, Miracles, S&T, Storm and what about any blue midrange deck like cezch pile, stoneblade, bant, grixis pyro, which are actually the ones playing the most interaction in the format. But I guess that's not the concern of somebody who wins their games with sol land, chalice, pray for no force

@Darth Vicous, actually cantrips force you to plan your turns ahead instead of playing of the top like the stompy apes

[Barook]

Delver, Miracles, S&T, Storm and what about any blue midrange deck like cezch pile, stoneblade, bant, grixis pyro, which are actually the ones playing the most interaction in the format. But I guess that's not the concern of somebody who wins their games with sol land, chalice, pray for no force
Do you actually believe that decks like Delver and blue midrange become unplayable without BS? :eyebrow: This is insanity. Based on what? Because you can't semi-mulligan your hand or keep Brainstorm open all the time until something happens? I'm actually baffled that there people out there that are serious about what you just said.

No wonder some people want Chalice in Legacy banned.

[DarthVicious]

... and what about any blue midrange deck like ... , which are actually the ones playing the most interaction in the format ...
@Darth Vicous, actually cantrips force you to plan your turns ahead instead of playing of the top like the stompy apes

Yeah, about that. Cantrips are the reason that 'interaction' (read: silver bullets) can be run as a plethora of 1-2 ofs in the SB and still be found as if you're running 8 tutors for all of them, once combined with the fetches and shuffles. Instant speed cantrips combined with fetches is almost as bad as playing against Mystical was.

Just because Chalice is one of the strongest weapons vs. your coveted TricolorTurboXerox.dec doesn't mean it needs to be banned.

[taconaut]

Just finished the cast, was a great listen!

The thing that stuck out to me was the driving principle of "I want more cards to be playable."

You might've been talking more about True-Name Nemesis than Brainstorm in that context, but let's say it was about BS; what cards do you think would become more playable if brainstorm is banned?

I agree that brainstorm is overpowered, but I don't think removing it changes anything with respect to the minimum power level required for Legacy. Even if you make cantrips worse, whatever you want to play still has to be able to beat: Elves, Lands, DnT, Czech Pile (and other midrange goodstuff decks et al), and others, and in exchange, you're dismantling decks like Storm or Miracles that rely on the unique interactions brainstorm has to be playable. I do think you acknowledged that in your post in the thread here, but I think it's under-considered in general is discussions about the banlist. Legacy has a high floor and a long history, so a huge amount of stuff is going to be invalidated whether Xerox is good or not.

If anything is going to make the texture of Legacy more same-y (which I would argue it currently is not, and wasn't pre-top ban either) it's getting rid of synergy decks to make way for more goodstuff decks.

[haganbmj]

Just finished the cast, was a great listen!

The thing that stuck out to me was the driving principle of "I want more cards to be playable."

You might've been talking more about True-Name Nemesis than Brainstorm in that context, but let's say it was about BS; what cards do you think would become more playable if brainstorm is banned?

This is something that comes up often in car rides with my group. The general feeling is that every deck starts with the 25-35 best cards, the 20 required lands to support that, and the remainder is generally made up of whatever the flavor of the month is. The decks more often than not build themselves because there aren't really trade offs so much as clear winners.

My biggest ones are
- Why would you play other reanimation targets when you can get a Griselbrand?
- What creature slots in better in your aggressive blue-centric deck than Delver?
- Why would I want to play an aggressive creature deck without blue?
- Is cutting black worth losing access to Deathrite? Thoughtseize?
- What's the harm in playing Decay when my mana just works?
- Is goyf, clique, etc worthwhile when I could play (or have to play against) a true name?

The point maharis brought up about blue-based strategies being more prone to get playable cards is interesting. The shell kind of allows slotting in some new hot card and just making it work. With enough redundancy in your draw spells and some baseline protection in force of will / probe / discard you can make some one-of or ability work more easily than in some other style of deck.

[maharis]

thanks again for the feedback again everyone -- I was on vacation last week so couldn't keep up too much.

I thought it was interesting how we got a pretty detailed explanation from Wizards on what they want Vintage to be in their restriction announcement on Monday. I still don't feel like we've ever gotten something like that for Legacy. I believe one of the reasons B&R discussions are so contentious here has to do with that.

For example, I agree from a philosophical standpoint with Megadeus' point that Brainstorm is singularly OP among the cantrips and probably should be gone. The problem is I don't even feel like it's worth discussing because it hasn't happened by now, and so many other cards have fallen to preserve it I can't imagine it ever happening unless Wizards decided to scrap the whole banned list and start over (which I also think they are loath to do).

But that doesn't mean that people should be ostracized for bringing it up. Many people resent the implication that not playing a deck with Brainstorm makes you stupid. I actually think it's the opposite. Brainstorm de-emphasizes skills like hand evaluation, sequencing, and deck construction. I'm just not sure enough that it does so to a such greater effect than Ponder or Preordain that it would be worth the massive shitstorm of a banning.

But it is hard to just ignore it, especially while there are still bricks on the ban list. When they ban cards... Gheizen mentioned Cruise and Dig... you could add Top too... clearly Wizards has identified that card selection is the most powerful thing to be doing in the format and the last three bans have all gone after some aspect of it... but even then you always trend toward 65-70% cantrip decks. It would take a fundamental reorganization of the format to make a real dent in that.


The point maharis brought up about blue-based strategies being more prone to get playable cards is interesting. The shell kind of allows slotting in some new hot card and just making it work. With enough redundancy in your draw spells and some baseline protection in force of will / probe / discard you can make some one-of or ability work more easily than in some other style of deck.

Not only that, but the sheer volume of cards that synergize with cast-cheap-spells-and-use-fetches printed in the past few years is insane. Young Pyro and Gurmag Angler allow you to use the same consistency shell to grow horizontally or vertically... those cards aren't even blue. Mentor just had to be restricted in vintage and if that shit ever takes off here it's going to be miserable. I mean theoretically a blue Wasteland deck could use Ramunap Excavator's effect to great success -- keeps cards like Daze and Spell Pierce alive longer, etc. But they don't even need to do that to get big advantages. Like literal crucible of worlds that attacks isn't good enough for the blue shell because for the same mana cost you can just get a Prowess machine that synergizes with 12 cards in your deck instead of 4.


Just finished the cast, was a great listen!

The thing that stuck out to me was the driving principle of "I want more cards to be playable."

You might've been talking more about True-Name Nemesis than Brainstorm in that context.

Both of these points above are the reason we started with TNN and not Brainstorm. Kneecapping Brainstorm probably has the same effect as TNN, but one is a) more likely to happen and b) more likely to pay off in immediate dividends. TNN allows the blue decks to not just win in consistency, but also to win on the battlefield. But it's not the only culprit: the token makers, delve creatures, and Baleful Strix hurt here as well.

I've been playing the esper delver list that's been circulating a bit. I do it because I like Lingering Souls. The deck plays Lingering Souls because it's good against TNN specifically. But last night I played against Maverick and I actually lost to a double-Knight plus Jitte draw because I couldn't just brick one of them in combat. My four spirits couldn't beat that draw. Had I been playing TNN instead of Souls, that massively OP board on the other side would've just been shit. I'm not going to make the change, though, because there's enough TNN out there that I don't have to worry about Knight. But I think Knight is a much more interesting card that encourages other kinds of decks.

[DarthVicious]

(Brainstorm-related stuffs)

I wouldn't say people get ostracized for bringing up The Great Brainstorm Debate, but the simple fact is that every possible argument for/against/indifferent towards its banning, including my comments and yours, have already been brought up on this site in previous threads. As passionate or dispassionate as some of us are, on either side of the fence, there isn't anything new for anyone to say that hasn't already been said multiple times.

However, I think the only reason it keeps coming up is, like you said, it's hard to ignore. Friggin everyone and their little sister's ex boyfriend's brother is playing the card.

True-Name is worse than Brainstorm in my opinion. Another herp-derp-look-i-win card like Dread of Night vs D&T, Iona vs mono color, Chalice vs half the format, etc. Except its a lot harder to interact with if you're not running black.