Oops, All Gideons!

[Cire]

Regarding the new Planeswalker Rule:

"Starting with this set, all planeswalkers past, present, and future will have the supertype legendary. They will also be subject to the "legend rule." The "planeswalker uniqueness rule" is going away. What does this mean? In short, everything that's true about legendary permanents will now be true about legendary planeswalkers. Also note that this does not mean legendary planeswalkers can be your Commander unless an ability says so."

Quite a few people have been talking about a Planeswalker Stompy deck, now that you can have multiple of a same type Planeswalker around. The most popular Planeswalker in this discussion is Gideon - the reason why is obvious: Gideon of the Trials. You can now have multiple gideons out - creating a solid wall of protection based on the gideon token.

While this rule is not yet in effect (I think), we can start brewing up some sort of gideon deck.

My starting point, initially, in brewing this deck was this modern take (which came out before the rule): here (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/against-the-odds-gideon-tribal-modern). Now that modern deck . . . is well modern, and is lacking access to a couple of cards that legacy decks have access to. Primarily Sol Lands and Chalice. Running those cards would obviously change the way the deck would be played. I played around with some of the numbers and came up with a rough sketch of a deck, but square_two provided a more complete list here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31951-Planeswalkers-are-Legendary-now&p=1022177&viewfull=1#post1022177).

Playing some games with that list and i've come to a couple conclusions. (1) We definitely need to run wasteland to prevent opposing Karakas interactions (2) 13 Planeswalkers is unneeded and the modern deck was correct that 10 is probably the more correct number. Then not conclusions, but observations (A) i'm not the biggest fan of the old school Wrath and Armogeddon solutions - I sort of feel in 2017 there must be a better way (B) If we are going to run wasteland, then maybe crucible as well?

Anyway here is a rough list:

Oops, All Gideons!

// 25 Lands

7 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Karakas

// 18 Artifacts

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Mox Diamond
4 Heart of Kiran
2 Sorcerous Spyglass (new card) (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/ixalan/29166-sorcerous-spyglass)

// 7 Other

4 Armageddon
3 Wrath of God

// 10 Planeswalkers

4 Gideon of the Trials
3 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
3 Gideon Jura

[bruizar]

The deck can perfectly run humility. Gives you maindeck outs against unfair matchups (grisel/emrakul) while being able to beat with full strengthgideons and hearts. Perhaps 1 untaidake over a city of traitors?

[apple713]

i really like this concept. You'll probably be more successful with tabernacles of pendrell vale + armageddon at clearing the board instead of just wrath of gods. Crucible of worlds would also help th strategy. Since u don't have to pay for planes walkers with tabernacle out you have free creatures. Add 1 ghost quarter and the deck becomes very destructive. Giddeons are nice but won't pose enough threat without a way to keep opposing threats at bay.

@ Bruiser

How does humility interact with Gideon activations?

[Ronald Deuce]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pm6WWWxhBdY

[bruizar]

i really like this concept. You'll probably be more successful with tabernacles of pendrell vale + armageddon at clearing the board instead of just wrath of gods. Crucible of worlds would also help th strategy. Since u don't have to pay for planes walkers with tabernacle out you have free creatures. Add 1 ghost quarter and the deck becomes very destructive. Giddeons are nice but won't pose enough threat without a way to keep opposing threats at bay.

@ Bruiser

How does humility interact with Gideon activations?

Layers are applied in timestamp order. This means everything is a 1/1 except gideon and heart of kiran. They are regular size. Also works with manlands.

[square_two]

I don't really understand the need to run both Wastelands and Armageddon. Don't those overlap quite a bit? If you can safely bash in with Mr Beefslab, protected by Chalice, then either the opp has Karakas out or not. I guess Wasteland leads to some more fine-tuned decision making and mana denial...it also opens the opportunity for Warping Wail or other <> cards.

Have a feeling that Humility, Wrath, Armageddon fit -somehow- but just not sure what is best. If you can protect yourself from being attacked, then Gideons will be just fine in combat - that was the reasoning I had with running Ghostly Prison. Additional benefit of being the magical 3 cmc that stompy decks love. Armaggedon seemed to play nicely with both Ghostly Prison and Trinisphere (and of course our Flagstones).

[apple713]

I don't really understand the need to run both Wastelands and Armageddon. Don't those overlap quite a bit? If you can safely bash in with Mr Beefslab, protected by Chalice, then either the opp has Karakas out or not. I guess Wasteland leads to some more fine-tuned decision making and mana denial...it also opens the opportunity for Warping Wail or other <> cards.

Have a feeling that Humility, Wrath, Armageddon fit -somehow- but just not sure what is best. If you can protect yourself from being attacked, then Gideons will be just fine in combat - that was the reasoning I had with running Ghostly Prison. Additional benefit of being the magical 3 cmc that stompy decks love. Armaggedon seemed to play nicely with both Ghostly Prison and Trinisphere (and of course our Flagstones).

The deck could just be armageddon stax without the stax and add the giddeons.

[alderon666]

The deck could just be armageddon stax without the stax and add the giddeons.

My gut reaction is to move the 3-spheres to the sideboard and replace the Mox Diamond + lands with Chrome Mox + white cards. You can have multiple Gideons out, but you can only have 1 of each. Just imagine how bad it is to draw a bunch of lands and 3 copies of the same Gideon...

4x Stoneforge and BSkull and maybe Jitte?

4 Heart of Kiran is way too many,

[Barook]

The deck can perfectly run humility. Gives you maindeck outs against unfair matchups (grisel/emrakul) while being able to beat with full strengthgideons and hearts. Perhaps 1 untaidake over a city of traitors?
I like the Humility + Tabernacle plan. Could throw in some manlands for good measure, too.

[Cire]

Chrome mox is a good idea - but only if we keep our white count at least above 24 (isn't that how that works? it's all good for us to get rid of gideon's but we need to have enough white cards in general for us to consistently be able to play it) - so far its 17 - we'll need to cut around 7 artifacts for us to even reach the minimum. Maybe a mox split?

Regarding humility - I like it a lot especially against S&T. Not really sure how we would search for Tabernacle though - just run it as a one of?

And for 1 Untaidake - we don't really have to replace a City, we can run it instead of a plains. Let's say we are aiming for 2 white mana sources by turn 2 - we would need around 15 white mana sources in the deck. Including the moxen - we only need 11 white producing lands. We currently have 13. We can afford to take out at least 2. This does mean that adding manlands would be trickier.

[Barook]

Question is if we even need Tabernacle to control creatures with Humility. The problem with Ghostly Prison is that they can still attack Gideon without paying mana.

An interesting way to clear the board are Caltrops/Lightmine Field - they can't attack you with Humility in play and once Gideon Jura hits the field, he can provoke the entire board into suicide. But maybe that interaction is too clunky.

Batterskull is definitely nice with Humility, though.

Untaidake seems to narrow to be any good.

Also, why not include a few Elspeths? Another token producer for Humility and the jump ability is great on your tokens, Gideons (and Batterskull if you run it).

Edit: Given the perfect casting cost for a Stompy manabase, Call the Gatewatch might not be that bad since Gideon of the Trials is the first thing you want to jam down for the emblem. Consistency is a good thing.

[apple713]

if you run armageddon you should run crucible.

If you run armageddon in a prison deck you should also run tabernacle. Armageddon, then drop tabernacle is a board wipe. If you have gideon out you'll probably win. Id run 2 tabernacle but not 3.

[Cire]

I guess my hesitation to make this an armogedon stax deck plus Gideon is that armogedon stax was never that good to begin with and I'm not sure Gideon makes it that much better. Outside the chalice/mana/gideons we have about maybe 15 cards to play with... maybe idk we can fool around with Thalia's, Sfm, eldrazi or maybe even other colors? The only reason I'm bringing this up is ... idk I've been thinking today and I'm not sure Gideon is good enough to rescue armogedon stax from obscurity but I like the Gideon concept enough to try to make it work. There's tension in that because it slots so well into the armogedon stax shell ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[apple713]

I guess my hesitation to make this an armogedon stax deck plus Gideon is that armogedon stax was never that good to begin with and I'm not sure Gideon makes it that much better. Outside the chalice/mana/gideons we have about maybe 15 cards to play with... maybe idk we can fool around with Thalia's, Sfm, eldrazi or maybe even other colors? The only reason I'm bringing this up is ... idk I've been thinking today and I'm not sure Gideon is good enough to rescue armogedon stax from obscurity but I like the Gideon concept enough to try to make it work. There's tension in that because it slots so well into the armogedon stax shell ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Stax common problem was consistency and pressure. It did nothing until it just won the game. Gideons dont provide consistency but provide pressure. Consistency is something whitevwill never get.

If u have the cards u should test the deck and let us know how it plays. That first version posted seems terrible tho. Not enough lock pieces.

If you can find a balance between pressure and lock pieces i think itll work. 12 threats is a GOOD number. Think about rug , usually only run 12 creatures and do just fine.

[bruizar]

Going RW solves a few things. Blood Moon fixes the lands matchup and Fiery Confluence fixes the DNT matchup. Nahiri provides draw and outs against enchantments and artifacts. Humility provides outs agianst most creature based decks but also sneak attack and reanimator strategies if you can get it out fast enough. Squadron Hawk is to stop the bleeding and to pitch to C.Mox. If you can get a Squadron Hawk out before Humility, you can flood the board with disposable creatures and trade very favorably.

4 Humility
4 Blood Moon
4 Gideon of the Trials
3 Gideon Jura
3 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Nahiri, the Harbinger
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Heart of Kiran
4 Fiery Confluence
4 Chrome Mox
4 Squadron Hawk
4 Chalice of the Void

Black could also provide an interesting splash. If I would play black, I would not play chalice of the void. Monastery Mentor was restricted in vintage, and we're playing white so we want to have a lot of cheap spells, particularly also draw spells. Perhaps some of these cards could play a role:
4 Gitaxian Probe <-
4 Cabal Therapy <-
3 Monastery Mentor <-
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Porphyry Nodes
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Painful Truths / Night's Whisper

Gitaxian Probe tells you if you have to play around Daze and helps Therapy + Mentor
Therapy helps you address permission spells and disrupt combo
Mentor feeds off of both of those cards, as well as the rest of your deck

[square_two]

I like the Humility + Tabernacle plan. Could throw in some manlands for good measure, too.

Just be sure that Tabernacle enters the battlefield -after- Humility :wink:

I think Heart of Kiran might be a trap. Does nothing without a walker on board even if it does hit hard if you can land a followup Gideon. It also lowers the white count for Chrome Mox which might be an issue - or should I just run Mox Diamond? I like the idea of swarming the board with tokens - more Elspeths to help out. That provides an additional layer of protection and ups the number of "doing things" post-geddon. Feels like this is an ok "middle" to where you can board in more combo or creature hate depending on what you are facing. If you can prevent opp's creatures from attacking, not really sure the reason to keep on with Humility - the Gideons already bash through just fine no matter what the opp has.

26
2 Karakas
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Flagstones of Trokair
8 Plains

17
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Armageddon
1 Sorcerous Spyglass // O-Ring // Damping Matrix?

17
4 Gideon of the Trials
4 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
3 Gideon Jura
3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Elspeth Tirel
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion

It does feel like few lock pieces, but if you include Gideon of the Trials then it starts to look more hopeful :/

[Cire]

@bruizar - if we're going to give up Chalice for 1cmc cards, and the decks biggest problem would be consistency. . . blue?

28 lands/mana
4 STP
4 FOW
10 Blue/Cantrips
10 Gideons
4 Win cons that happen to be blue?

Idk - probably worse than nu-miracles?

[bruizar]

I think the strength of the deck is that it can resist degenerate combo kills well with access to Gideon of the Trials, Humility and Rest in Peace. That means you can focus on breaking parity on the fair matchups and tempo match-ups. Brainstorms and ponders do a great job at breaking that parity. Gitaxian Probe also helps a lot against tempo, because it tell you whether or not you're going to run into a daze or not. That information is crucial as any stompy or mud player that has had his 4CC spells countered by a daze will tell you.

[Claymore]

I think everyone is missing Kytheon as well for maximum Gideons.

[Cire]

I think the strength of the deck is that it can resist degenerate combo kills well with access to Gideon of the Trials, Humility and Rest in Peace. That means you can focus on breaking parity on the fair matchups and tempo match-ups. Brainstorms and ponders do a great job at breaking that parity. Gitaxian Probe also helps a lot against tempo, because it tell you whether or not you're going to run into a daze or not. That information is crucial as any stompy or mud player that has had his 4CC spells countered by a daze will tell you.

I don't know if this is an endoresement for the no chalice blue splash suggestion, but if it is - I don't know where we can find the room for Humility/RIP while also keeping up the blue count for FOW.

[Cire]

IDK if this is useful - but can you make a Gideon into a creature - then cast Sakashima the Impostor targeting that Gideon? Would Sakashima enter the battlefield as a full PW and all the associated abilities and Loyalty counters? I never wondered about that because the copied creature would've also been a gideon and the unqiueness rule would've killed it. But as a legend - i think Sakashima would stay right? Not sure if that's good - but in a possible white/blue version you can run Sakashima as gideons that can pitch to blue.

[CelestialMorningLight]

This deck interested me enough to join just so I could post. I was going through and reading the posts and it got me thinking, what about sonething like this as a preliminary list

7 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Karakas
2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Wasteland
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Mox Diamond
2 Chrome Mox
2 Heart of Kiran
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Armageddon
3 Wrath of God
4 Gideon of the Trials
3 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Humility
3 Call the Gatewatch

sb: 2 Wasteland
sb: 1 Karakas
sb: 2 Damping Matrix
sb: 3 Sorcerous Spyglass
sb: 3 Rest in Peace
sb: 3 Council's Judgement
sb: 1 Wrath of God

my aim with this list is to incorporate some of the better technology that I've seen in this thread into one cohesive list. I don't know if it works but it seems like it's not terrible at the very least. If anyone sees something that could be improved, let me know.

Edit: Spelling.

[Claymore]

Not sure if you want Vehicles in a Humility list. You can crew them/use Heart's PW ability, but then they'd become a 1/1 with no abilities if you have Humility out.

[morgan_coke]

Not sure if you want Vehicles in a Humility list. You can crew them/use Heart's PW ability, but then they'd become a 1/1 with no abilities if you have Humility out.

Don't Vehicles work under humility like Manlands do? Or has that changed?

[square_two]

Don't Vehicles work under humility like Manlands do? Or has that changed?

The crew ability looks like it simply turns the artifact into a creature, the power/toughness is already "set". Thus it is affected by Humility.
Manlands actually specify through the ability that the power/toughness is adjusted. Same as the Gideons specifying the P/T through the ability.

[morgan_coke]

The crew ability looks like it simply turns the artifact into a creature, the power/toughness is already "set". Thus it is affected by Humility.
Manlands actually specify through the ability that the power/toughness is adjusted. Same as the Gideons specifying the P/T through the ability.

I see, thanks.

[Azuriz]

This deck interested me enough to join just so I could post. I was going through and reading the posts and it got me thinking, what about sonething like this as a preliminary list

7 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Karakas
2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Wasteland
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Mox Diamond
2 Chrome Mox
2 Heart of Kiran
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Armageddon
3 Wrath of God
4 Gideon of the Trials
3 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Humility
3 Call the Gatewatch

sb: 2 Wasteland
sb: 1 Karakas
sb: 2 Damping Matrix
sb: 3 Sorcerous Spyglass
sb: 3 Rest in Peace
sb: 3 Council's Judgement
sb: 1 Wrath of God

my aim with this list is to incorporate some of the better technology that I've seen in this thread into one cohesive list. I don't know if it works but it seems like it's not terrible at the very least. If anyone sees something that could be improved, let me know.

Edit: Spelling.

Same for me, also joined because this deck is calling out to me. I think the main thing to do is finding out what the weakest match-ups are against the top decks. The deck has decent game MB against combo between humility, 3-ball, chalice and trials. Against fair decks you have the mana denial plan along with humilty and board wipes to keep alive.

Reading the thread I came to this list:
Planeswalkers
4 Gideon of the Trials
3 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Gideon Jura
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant


Spells
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Humilty
4 Armageddon
3 Trinisphere
3 Wrath of God
3 Crucible of Worlds

Other
2 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Mana
4 Plains
4 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
3 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Karakas
2 Wasteland
2 Chrome Mox
3 Mox Diamond

Sideboard:
2 Damping Matrix
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Containment Priest
3 Rest in Piece
2 Council's Judgment
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Ghost Quarter

I'm gonna proxy up the deck and playtest a bit to see if there is anything obvious that can be done to improve it.
I also found someone giving the a RW list a go https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/750952#paper

Cards to consider:
Bottled Cloister is played by Red/Chandra Stompy and is nice card advantage if it sticks, although we don't have Ensnaring Bridge to get extra value.
Sea Gate Wreckage is another source of card advantage when you're hellbent.
StP or PtE for matches where Chalice doesn't do enough/anything like stompy mirrors or DnT.
Heart of Kiran could be okay in the sideboard to switch with Humilty due to the non-bo, but white just have so many better options in the matches where this is the case.
Ghostly Prison/Sphere of Safety are subpar I think. GP doesn't protect your Gideons which is meh and SoS is really expensive for what it does.
Helm of Obedience and E. Tutor/Inventor's Fair gives you an option where you don't smash face to win, but it might be too cute.

[Cire]

New Gideon:

Gideon Blackblade 1WW
Legendary Planeswalker - Gideon Mythic Rare
As long as its your turn, Gideon Blackblade is a 4/4 Human Soldier with Indestructible that's still a planeswalker.
Prevent all damage that would be dealt to Gideon Blackblade during your turn.
+1 >> Up to one other target creature you control gains your choice of vigilance, lifelink, or indestructible until end of turn.
-6 >> Exile target nonland permanent.
<<4>>

It's another cheap Gideon. I know the latest lists don't run 10 Gideon's, but that's because the other Gideon's were expensive and not great. What about now. We might think to inlcude creatures so that this Gideon's plus one ability can taget something?

-30 Sources of Mana
8 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Wasteland
2 City of Traitors
2 Karakas
4 Mox Diamond
2 Chrome Mox

-19 Control
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
11 Other

-11 Gideons
4 Gideon of the Trials
4 Gideon Blackblade
3 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar

[Glass House]

We might think to inlcude creatures so that this Gideon's plus one ability can taget something?

Don't think that's needed. Just give lifelink to his fellow Gideons.

Should Mirror Gallery be looked into, so multiples of the same Gideon aren't dead draws?

[Cire]

That's a good point!

RE Mirror Gallery - i don;t think so - I think the Chrome Mox is decent enough to get rid of dead draw Giddeon's, we might need some card quality filtering, but most of the other cards should probably be used for control like WOG/Humility I think.

[aedemiel]

Humility should be an auto-include.
EDIT: And maybe even Armageddon if you're playing Flagstones.

[FTW]

Good number of Gideons, but needs more Humility.

4/4 indestructible Gideon? LOL I play Gurmag Angler.

Thalias and Revokers and flying legends are also a problem (7/7 lifelinks, 15/15 pro colors, 20/20 indestructibles, 7/7 you can't play white spells). Karakas helps, but it's easier to win vs 1/1s.

That might be too many mana sources too. I ran 26-30 sources with Armageddon Stax years ago, but that was also with multiple Armageddons and Smokestacks and manlands and Wastelock and 5cmc win conditions and lands that produce no mana (Tabernacle). Without Geddons and a curve topping out at 4, a Chalice/3sphere deck shouldn't need so much mana. Maybe 26 sources and 4 more disruption?

[aedemiel]

That might be too many mana sources too. I ran 26-30 sources with Armageddon Stax years ago, but that was also with multiple Armageddons and Smokestacks and manlands and Wastelock and 5cmc win conditions and lands that produce no mana (Tabernacle). Without Geddons and a curve topping out at 4, a Chalice/3sphere deck shouldn't need so much mana. Maybe 26 sources and 4 more disruption?

I think it's more of a Mox Diamond thing.
You're probably right, we can cut the full Mox Diamond Playset and just play 4 Chrome Mox, which, as stated above, is good with this many legends. I wonder if we can't play Mox Amber for the same reason... (Probably a stretch though as it doesn't cast T1 Chalice).

[FTW]

I think it's more of a Mox Diamond thing.


Other way around I think. Geddon Stax plays Mox Diamond over Chrome Mox (and a high land count) because it's blowing up all the lands anyway and runs 4 Crucible, so Mox Diamond is much more synergistic with the game plan. Also Stax runs a high artifact count making Chrome Mox bad. This build doesn't have any of that going for it, so the 30-mana Mox Diamond plan doesn't make sense. Most other Chalice decks don't prefer Mox Diamond (4c Loam is an exception for obvious reasons).

Chrome Mox seems best. Mox Amber is jank.

[Cire]

The reason I double Moxed was because 8 of our Giddeon's, our best Giddeon's are 1WW, and thus the Sol lands do not really help. It seems crucial to be able to start casting Giddeons Turn 2.

[FTW]

The reason I double Moxed was because 8 of our Giddeon's, our best Giddeon's are 1WW, and thus the Sol lands do not really help. It seems crucial to be able to start casting Giddeons Turn 2.

That doesn't explain why there are more Mox Diamonds than Chrome Moxes or why there are 30 mana sources.

Also, Gideon turn 2 vs turn 3 shouldn't matter as much as landing lock pieces turn 1/2. You still want Plains + land + Mox, but the more important function of the Mox is probably to get that lock piece down fast.

[Cire]

Fair enough. What about something like:

10 Other Lands
6 Sol Land
4 Waste Lands
4 Chrome Mox
2 Mod Diamond

11 Gideons

4 Chalice
4 Trinisphere
3 Wrath of God
3 Humility
3 Armageddon
2 Crucible of Worlds

4 "Open"

Does that make more sense?

[FTW]

Oh, you are playing multiple Armageddon and Crucible. That's a different story. Your other list didn't have them. You should probably decide whether you want to commit to the Armageddon/CrucibleLock plan or not because that has a huge impact on the choice of manabase. They aren't just flex slots but build-arounds.

If you're not on the Geddon plan, then 4 Chrome Mox + 2 Mox Diamond sounds fine.

In general, 3 Wraths + 3 Humility is overkill. Maindeck Wrath is pretty bad and too slow in some games. Just play Humility. It does so much more work in Legacy by shutting down abilities, haste, and creatures generated at instant speed. If you're on the Geddon plan, add 1-2 Tabernacle as your Wrath and SB Ghostly Prison if you're really worried about getting swarmed by 1/1s. If you're not on the Geddon plan, maybe use maindeck Ghostly Prison or use Heart of Kiran and Mishra's Factory as blockers (Prison doesn't stop creatures from attacking Gideons, but Heart and Factory are big through Humility).

[morgan_coke]

Does a small Red splash for Nahiri and something like Deafening Clarion or some of the Red Final Fortune variants make sense here? Timewalks, draw, and removal are always good.

[FTW]

Does a small Red splash for Nahiri and something like Deafening Clarion or some of the Red Final Fortune variants make sense here? Timewalks, draw, and removal are always good.

Chance for Glory is an easier splash than Final Fortune and has some interesting interactions with the emblem... Unfortunately the Indestrucible clause is not that useful unless you're using it to save Mishra's Factories from Armageddon (8-9 mana??). Maybe to save Heart of Kiran? The card is also terrible in a lot of situations, so I don't know if a non-Gideon walker + Clarion + Chance are worth the splash.

[aedemiel]

I might be missing something but unlike others, Gideon Blackblade is a 1/1 under Humility if you played it first right?
Also we did not consider the new card Gideon's Triumph. The 2CMC makes it a Swords to Plowshares we could use under Chalice.

[Hanni]

While Gideon's Triumph should in no way be compared to Swords to Plowshares, it does look like it would be a pretty good card for this deck.

[Cire]

Just a quick turn about. Is a chalice stompy deck the best route for this? I ask due to the popularity of Quinn and the updated White Control on this board. What about if instead of Chalice/Trini Sphere we just use STP and various control creatures?

And - edit: as per my comment on the spoiler thread - seems we need to justify not running New Karn. We can easily cast him turn 2/3 and the we have the means of generating 6 mana by turn 4 for the lock.

[aedemiel]

Just a quick turn about. Is a chalice stompy deck the best route for this? I ask due to the popularity of Quinn and the updated White Control on this board. What about if instead of Chalice/Trini Sphere we just use STP and various control creatures?
It's unclear what would be better for now. They could easily merge (I played a Sylvan Quinn deck with 4 Gideons 2 weeks ago). Chalice has the merit to be good against combo. And, in a way, in a Mono White deck, not running Chalice means to run Orim's.
Best version is probably meta-dependent in the end.



And - edit: as per my comment on the spoiler thread - seems we need to justify not running New Karn. We can easily cast him turn 2/3 and the we have the means of generating 6 mana by turn 4 for the lock.
I like Teyo, the Shieldmage for some very different reasons.
What we need is a "wish-spell" for planeswalkers.


While Gideon's Triumph should in no way be compared to Swords to Plowshares, it does look like it would be a pretty good card for this deck.
The main drawback would be the inability to hit a T1 creature. Noble Hierarch, Mom, Delver, Dryad Arbor... Sometimes it's good to just "Bolt the Bird".

[Cire]

FYI, I just saw this:

Interplanar Beacon
Land
Whenever you cast a planeswalker spell, you gain 1 life.
T: Add C.
1, T: Add two mana of different colors. Spend this mana only to cast planeswalker spells.

This lets us cast Turn 2 Giddeons off Sol Lands!

[Glass House]

FYI, I just saw this:

Interplanar Beacon
Land
Whenever you cast a planeswalker spell, you gain 1 life.
T: Add C.
1, T: Add two mana of different colors. Spend this mana only to cast planeswalker spells.

This lets us cast Turn 2 Giddeons off Sol Lands!

Sadly the two mana have to be of different colors, so you can't add WW.

[Cire]

Ah damnit. :mad:

[kinda]

Just a quick turn about. Is a chalice stompy deck the best route for this? I ask due to the popularity of Quinn and the updated White Control on this board. What about if instead of Chalice/Trini Sphere we just use STP and various control creatures?

And - edit: as per my comment on the spoiler thread - seems we need to justify not running New Karn. We can easily cast him turn 2/3 and the we have the means of generating 6 mana by turn 4 for the lock.

You could definitely jam 8+ walkers in sylvan Quinn now due to new karn since it tutors helm. One md helm for etutor option then karn/gideon. Post a list in the Quinn thread if you get one together!

[Cire]

You could definitely jam 8+ walkers in sylvan Quinn now due to new karn since it tutors helm. One md helm for etutor option then karn/gideon. Post a list in the Quinn thread if you get one together!

I don't know if I can just jame in 10 or 14 PWs into the deck, but here's my best attempt, but it looks nothing like your list. Really the only thing it keeps is the Helm-Combo


9 Other Lands
6 Sol Land
4 Waste Lands
3 Chrome Mox
2 Mox Diamond

4 sylvan library
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 ensnaring bridge
1 Humility
2 Tutor Spots

4 rest in peace
3 helm of obedience

4 Giddeon Blackblade
4 Gideon of the Trials
4 New Karn
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
[/Card]

SB: 15
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Mycosynth Lattice
12 Other

[aedemiel]

Okay, this seems deece: https://scryfall.com/card/war/30/single-combat

About your list Cire, I don't think we need up to 6 sol Land in Sylvan Quinn. However, it doesn't seem terrible overall.

[Cire]

About your list Cire, I don't think we need up to 6 sol Land in Sylvan Quinn. However, it doesn't seem terrible overall.

Oh, yeah - it's a rough draft with zero playtesting. As for the Sol lands - it's so that we can generate reliably 6 mana by turn 4 (so we can Karn turn 3 and lock turn 4 if need be). So per my heuristic (10 cards drawn searching for 2 copies of Accel (sol or mox)) we should run around 12 copies of accel. So 6 Sol lands and 6 Mox. We can definitely replace the Sol lands with other type of accel if we deem it best.

[aedemiel]

Oh, yeah - it's a rough draft with zero playtesting. As for the Sol lands - it's so that we can generate reliably 6 mana by turn 4 (so we can Karn turn 3 and lock turn 4 if need be). So per my heuristic (10 cards drawn searching for 2 copies of Accel (sol or mox)) we should run around 12 copies of accel. So 6 Sol lands and 6 Mox. We can definitely replace the Sol lands with other type of accel if we deem it best.

I think the main drawback would be the colorless. Not a problem for Karn, but Gideons and Humility need WW.Maybe moxes are better. Hell, even Lotus Petal doesn't look terrible.

[kinda]

I think the main drawback would be the colorless. Not a problem for Karn, but Gideons and Humility need WW.Maybe moxes are better. Hell, even Lotus Petal doesn't look terrible.

This is my thinking too...I would first try 4 chrome mox, 2 tombs, 1 City. I would shave one library, one bridge, one helm for either the new gideon edict or wog. One of my md tutor targets would be ethersworn canonist too then lots of combo sb hate. I do like the list!

[morgan_coke]

Interplanar Beacon

Pretty much completely solves any decks color issues with 'walkers, if that's what you're worried about.

[Cire]

Interplanar Beacon

Pretty much completely solves any decks color issues with 'walkers, if that's what you're worried about.

Unfortunately, I brought it up a couple posts ago and it was pointed out that it can't produce WW mana. :cry:


I think the main drawback would be the colorless. Not a problem for Karn, but Gideons and Humility need WW.Maybe moxes are better. Hell, even Lotus Petal doesn't look terrible.

Issue with lotus petal is that it doesn't stick around and thus doesn't help get you to both 4 mana turn 3 and 6 mana turn 4.

Ideally we want to be able to curve out as follows:




Chalice Plan
Helm Plan


Turn 1
2
W


Turn 2
1WW
1WW


Turn 3
2WW
2WW


Turn 4
6
6



We could - actually - think about Nobel Hierarch and other mana dorks for the Helm Version?

[aedemiel]

I'm still looking for a clear answer to this:

I might be missing something but unlike others, Gideon Blackblade is a 1/1 under Humility if you played it first right?

The way I see it is, if you already have Humility in play, Gideon would immediately be a vanilla 1/1 and would not even turn back during your opponent turn.
I think (I hope) I'm wrong. Is there a judge around?

[FTW]

I'm still looking for a clear answer to this:


The way I see it is, if you already have Humility in play, Gideon would immediately be a vanilla 1/1 and would not even turn back during your opponent turn.
I think (I hope) I'm wrong. Is there a judge around?

I'm not a judge but I'm pretty sure Gideon Blackblade would be a destructible vanilla 1/1 and lose all its planeswalker abiliies as long as Humility is in play. It's a big nonbo. Humility is so strong with the other Gideons but not this one.

Without Humility you need some kind of anti-creature plan. Ghostly Prison slows down attacks, but Griselbrand is a thing.

[aedemiel]

I'm not a judge but I'm pretty sure Gideon Blackblade would be a destructible vanilla 1/1 and lose all its planeswalker abiliies as long as Humility is in play. It's a big nonbo. Humility is so strong with the other Gideons but not this one.

Erf... That's terrible... Humility is almost key card.



Without Humility you need some kind of anti-creature plan. Ghostly Prison slows down attacks, but Griselbrand is a thing.
I was thinking about this Elephant Grass isn't out of the equation either if we're on a Sylvan Quinn build. it even stops Marit-Lage...

[Cire]

In the Chaliceless build above, I think leaving Humility in is still okay - it's just a one of and you can cast it despite the dis-synergy if you really need to.

[aedemiel]

In the Chaliceless build above, I think leaving Humility in is still okay - it's just a one of and you can cast it despite the dis-synergy if you really need to.

I wouldn't play it as a one-of honestly. I've always played 2 and I probably would play 3 if I could (but this is Legacy and 4 mana is too much). Humility is just too good most of the time and end the game on its own.

Maybe we just replace Gideon Darkblade with new Karn?

[Cire]

Maybe we just replace Gideon Darkblade with new Karn?

I'm at the point where I'm just trying to jam as many walkers into stompy builds as I can, but I feel all those experiments deserve their own threads - the point of this thread is to abuse Gideon in the sense of the "Can't lose" emblem and another 3 mana Gideon is too good in that regard to cut. If we're cutting that Giddeon, there is no reason not to cut the others, and then when you cut the others there is no reason not to turn this into another type of Stompy deck or just turn this into Quinn with a Giddeon or two and the New Karn, and I'm sure that's the direction Quinn is moving into - so this seems like if we want this to be a seperate deck we need to define it as a deck that runs X+ Giddeons, if not you're playing Quinn with some Giddeons.

[aedemiel]

I'm at the point where I'm just trying to jam as many walkers into stompy builds as I can, but I feel all those experiments deserve their own threads - the point of this thread is to abuse Gideon in the sense of the "Can't lose" emblem and another 3 mana Gideon is too good in that regard to cut. If we're cutting that Giddeon, there is no reason not to cut the others, and then when you cut the others there is no reason not to turn this into another type of Stompy deck or just turn this into Quinn with a Giddeon or two and the New Karn, and I'm sure that's the direction Quinn is moving into - so this seems like if we want this to be a seperate deck we need to define it as a deck that runs X+ Giddeons, if not you're playing Quinn with some Giddeons.

I actually agree with everything you just said.

If we stick to the topic of this thread then, Humility just isn't playable. Should we replace it with some taxing effect, like Ghostly Prison, Aven Mindcensor or Leonin Arbiter?

Also, I think Gedion BlackBlade shouldn't be a 4-of. The fact that it is a creature makes it much weaker than any other Gid'.

[Cire]

Earlier I was wondering about Sakashima as a potential other Giddeon, but now we have the below as a potential new Gideon if we splash blue (might even be easier to cast than Gideon, Ally of Zendikar since it doesn't need double colors:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D33SmhbUUAAo3l_.png:large

Edit - also will copying a Gideon while its a creature give this a +1/+1 counter and a Loyalty Counter?

[aedemiel]

Earlier I was wondering about Sakashima as a potential other Giddeon, but now we have the below as a potential new Gideon if we splash blue (might even be easier to cast than Gideon, Ally of Zendikar since it doesn't need double colors:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D33SmhbUUAAo3l_.png:large

Edit - also will copying a Gideon while its a creature give this a +1/+1 counter and a Loyalty Counter?

I don't think splashing blue for a 4 CMC clone-effect is that great. Also splasing blue might mean playing Brainstorm, Ponder, FOW... And then at this point we are just a weak Miracles.

[Cire]

I don't think splashing blue for a 4 CMC clone-effect is that great. Also splasing blue might mean playing Brainstorm, Ponder, FOW... And then at this point we are just a weak Miracles.

For the blue splash - I think you're right in the sense that if we go that route we MUST go the chalice route to stay stompy instead of Bad Miracles. It's a fine line to tread - that said the idea behind this is that if we can't go Humility this is another beater - i.e. instead of being able to use humility we just lay down Giddeon after Gideon and hope to beat face with 4/4's and 5/5's . . .

[aedemiel]

New Gideon: https://scryfall.com/card/war/265/gideon-the-oathsworn
It's terrible for what we're trying to accomplish.

[Cire]

Something to consider (and by something - I mean something to consider for each deck in the entire format)

Explosion zone
Land
Explosion zone enters the battlefield with 1 counter
T: add colourless mana
XX, tap: put X counter over explosion zone
3, T: sacrifice explosion zone: destroy all nonland permanents with converted cost equal to the number of counters on explosion zone

With Sol Lands it can put a a counter on itself a turn, so:

Turn 1 Ancient Tomb,
Turn 2 <this>, tap to add 1 counter
Turn 3 Wasteland/whatever, activate - get rid of 2 CMC permenants.

This could help with problematic creatures. It's not replacing humility but in the Chalice version, especially with Crucible it could be very useful.

Potential rough list with Zone.

8 White Producing Lands
8 Sol Land
3 Waste Lands
3 Explosion Zone
3 Chrome Mox
3 Mox Diamond

10 Gideons
4 Karn

4 Chalice
4 Trinisphere
4 Crucible of Worlds

6 "Open"

Lots open in this list cause of the humility dis-synergy and unsureness of running Armageddon if you're using stuff like zone.

[aedemiel]

Yep, I saw this land earlier.
I think it will be great in Lands.deck but I don't know about Stompy deck (assuming we're going for a Stompy route).
4 Crucible is probably too much even in this shell. Also, Flagstone of Trokair is a must with Armaggeddon.

[FTW]

New Gideon: https://scryfall.com/card/war/265/gideon-the-oathsworn
It's terrible for what we're trying to accomplish.

Lol, what's a "non-Gideon creature"? I only have Gideon creatures and noncreature Gideons.

Spark Double should enter with both an extra +1/+1 counter and an extra loyalty counter. Good synergy if you go for the blue splash. Tundra stompy.

I agree with Cire said about maximizing Gideons. Humility is so good, but to break Gideon of the Trials you really need as many cheap Gideons as possible. We need a different way to stop creatures. Maybe some combination of Ghostly Prison, Maze of Ith/Kor Haven, and mana denial (Crucible + Wasteland)? Hide behind Ensnaring Bridge until you hit critical mass?

Unfortunately, attacking with Gideon is no longer a win condition when the opponent doesn't just have vanilla 1/1s. Even if they can't attack, they can block for days. Do we need a way to give Gideon evasion? An alternate win condition (Rest in Peace+Helm of Obedience)?

[aedemiel]

I agree with Cire said about maximizing Gideons. Humility is so good, but to break Gideon of the Trials you really need as many cheap Gideons as possible. We need a different way to stop creatures. Maybe some combination of Ghostly Prison, Maze of Ith/Kor Haven, and mana denial (Crucible + Wasteland)? Hide behind Ensnaring Bridge until you hit critical mass?
Absolutely. I think we can indeed replace Humility with a mix of Ghostly Prison/Wrath or God. Kor Haven seems playable as well. I don't know about the Crucible + Wasteland start. Too much colorless maybe?


Unfortunately, attacking with Gideon is no longer a win condition when the opponent doesn't just have vanilla 1/1s. Even if they can't attack, they can block for days. Do we need a way to give Gideon evasion? An alternate win condition (Rest in Peace+Helm of Obedience)?
RiP+Helm is already Sylvan Quinn, so we now it's playable.
I guess we could try Serra the Benevolent...

[Cire]

I've been actually thinking about the chaliceless bild and seeing that the cheapest giddeons are 1WW thinking about getting rid of Sol lands from my initial Chaliceless build (especially since we are not trying to power out Humility). With that in mind there is no point in running New Karn, and instead the aim is to just play white control with Giddeons. The brainstormed list was:

20 Lands

2 Mox Diamond
4 Noble Hierarch

4 Sylvan library
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Enlightened Tutor
2 Giddeon's Triumph
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Tutor Spots

4 rest in peace
4 helm of obedience

4 Gideon of the Trials
3 Giddeon Blackblade
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar

It's really really rough, but that's the karnless/sol landless/chalicless route that we could take. Next steps is probably to take out the Helm combo as without the sol lands it gets expensive. Instead the extra space could be for more tutors and Giddeons. The extra space could also be more lands and we can try to run a snow base for scrying sheets.

[FTW]

20 Lands

2 Mox Diamond
4 Noble Hierarch

4 Sylvan library
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Enlightened Tutor
2 Gideon's Triumph
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Tutor Spots

4 rest in peace
4 helm of obedience

4 Gideon of the Trials
3 Gideon Blackblade
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar

It's really really rough, but that's the karnless/sol landless/chalicless route that we could take. Next steps is probably to take out the Helm combo as without the sol lands it gets expensive. Instead the extra space could be for more tutors and Giddeons. The extra space could also be more lands and we can try to run a snow base for scrying sheets.


Could work.

Chrome Mox over Mox Diamond. Diamond + 20 lands + 0 crucible + 0 loam + 0 land tax seems bad.

For RiPHelm decks you should only need 3 Rest in Peace (4th SB) and 2 Helm of Obedience. Tutors do the rest of the work. Helm is a dead draw early game, even midgame. You only ever want it when you have RiP and 4-5 mana and the coast is clear. The rest of the time Plains is a better card. RiP is very strong in some matches but only a combo piece in others, and it's redundant in multiples. 4 copies in the 75 seems good, but 4 main may be too many.

Do we have enough interaction with the opponent? Without Chalice and Humility you lose a lot of interaction. Mana, draw, tutors, combo pieces, Gideons.. most of that is non-interactive. There's just spot removal and 1 Ghostly Prison. 1 card to interact with noncreature permanents, 0 cards to interact with spells. You can free up more slots for interaction by making a few cuts:
-2 Helm of Obedience
-1 Rest in Peace
-1 Sylvan Library
-2 Gideon's Triumph

If you splash blue instead of green, Rest in Peace has really good synergy with Web of Inertia (Oops, you lose your combat phase).

Edit: Neither Ghostly Prison nor Web of Inertia stop creatures from attacking Planeswalkers, which is really awkward.

[kinda]

I've been actually thinking about the chaliceless bild and seeing that the cheapest giddeons are 1WW thinking about getting rid of Sol lands from my initial Chaliceless build (especially since we are not trying to power out Humility). With that in mind there is no point in running New Karn, and instead the aim is to just play white control with Giddeons. The brainstormed list was:

20 Lands

2 Mox Diamond
4 Noble Hierarch

4 Sylvan library
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Enlightened Tutor
2 Giddeon's Triumph
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Tutor Spots

4 rest in peace
4 helm of obedience

4 Gideon of the Trials
3 Giddeon Blackblade
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar

It's really really rough, but that's the karnless/sol landless/chalicless route that we could take. Next steps is probably to take out the Helm combo as without the sol lands it gets expensive. Instead the extra space could be for more tutors and Giddeons. The extra space could also be more lands and we can try to run a snow base for scrying sheets.

Chrome mox over diamond I think, plus you likely want 4. I'd cut some helms for karns too. Try it!

[Cire]

Yeah whenever I plug up one hole in the deck other problems come up.

The issues are:

1) The best non-hate bear white interaction with the opponent is Humility
2) Humility plays poorly with Giddeon
3) Without Humility there is no real reason to play Sol Lands
4) Without Sol Land there is no real reason to play a Stompy build (Chalice/Trinisphere)
5) Without Stompy Build there is not enough interaction with opponent.

So that's where we are now. I know we initially when green for potential card quality - but would we maybe include black instead and add in discard and thus such interaction?

[aedemiel]

Sooo... Deadguy Ale with Gideons?

[Cire]

Sooo... Deadguy Ale with Gideons?

I mean, maybe? Really the only identity this deck has is that it would run 10+ Giddeons (plus with the assumption of 8 Accel of some type and at least 20 lands). I think in the last 2-3 pages we essentially discussed why Stompy Shell wouldn't work for that identity and are now trying to figure out the other 22 something cards (even less since we've decided not to play chalice (since without humility our prime motivation to run sol lands is gone) we're playing STP, so really 18 cards).

Deadguy Gideon, even despite the hilariously appropriate name now, might make sense - turn 1, land discard, turn 2, draw engine or creature kill, turn 3 start dropping gideons onwards.

[FTW]

What if we play the Stax shell and ignore the bad Gideon?

I say bad because:

+1 is useless unless you have a 2nd Gideon out (with a different name) AND are attacking instead of using another ability (win-more)
it doesn't protect itself
it's more vulnerable to creature removal (e.g. Terminus)
he makes Humility bad
as a 4/4 without Humility he gets chumped for days (Angler, TNN, YP making tokens)


Really the only thing going for it is a 3cc "Gideon" permanent. But Stax isn't trying to race anyway. This is control, not tempo. Just play more ramp or better control and then use the better Gideons. Instead of cutting Humility for Blackblade, cut Blackblade and keep Humility.



//Mana: 26
3 Talisman of Progress
4 Chrome Mox
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Karakas
8 Plains

//Gideons: 11
4 Gideon of the Trials
4 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
3 Gideon Jura

//Permanents: 19
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
3 Tangle Wire
2 Banishing Light
2 Oath of Gideon
4 Humility

//Spells: 4
2 Warping Wail
2 Gideon's Triumph

//Sideboard: 15
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Defense Grid
3 Rest in Peace
1 Helm of Obedience
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Timely Reinforcements


That's a version without mana denial, just focused on board control.

Talisman adds another white source you can cast off a turn 1 sol land, which should help with turn 2 WW.

Oath of Gideon makes 2 1/1 tokens, is easy to cast off a sol land manabase, and makes Gideons better. It might just be bad but I think it's worth trying.

Warping Wail, Gideon's Triumph and Banishing Light give some low cc interaction to balance out the curve. Warping Wail is easy to cast with 8 Sol Lands and 3 Talismans.

Karakas not only handles enemy threats but also protects attacking Gideons from spot removal (he's Legendary).

Tangle Wire slows down the game to let the more expensive control pieces come online, especially important in the absence of mana denial tools.

Or you can play a build with mana denial. Gideon + resistor + pressure on manabase is probably GG. But the deck might have a harder time hitting double white.


//Mana: 27
4 Mox Diamond
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
3 Flagstones of Trokair
6 Plains
2 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

//Gideons: 10
4 Gideon of the Trials
4 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Gideon Jura

//Permanents: 19
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Banishing Light
4 Humility

//Spells: 5
2 Gideon's Triumph
3 Armageddon


Crucible is an all-star here with Wasteland, Mox Diamond, City and Geddon!

Armageddon + Flagstones/Crucible + Wastelock + resistors should put a lot of pressure on the opponent's manabase while Humility + Tabernacle keep creatures under control. Then Gideons clean up the rest.

[aedemiel]

Oddly enough, in this king of shell, Ajani Steadfast fits the deck nicely:
— 3W CMC makes it easily playable with sol Lands.
— The +1 gives Lifelink or First strike (it's no evasion, but Lifelink is a nice touch).
— The -2 can put BOTH a +1/+1 and a loyalty if you animated your Gideons first.
— The ultimate makes the "You-can't-lose-the-game" emblem almost a lock.

Also, I still believe Serra the Benevolent is playable.

[FTW]

TBH that Ajani has better synergy than Gideon Blackblade. That emblem looks strong.

Are there any playable white proliferate effects in the new set? Anything to help get that Emblem out. Contagion Clasp even?

[aedemiel]

Are there any playable white proliferate effects in the new set? Anything to help get that Emblem out.
Wanderer's Strike is the only thing noteworthy and is barelly playable.

[Cire]

TBH that Ajani has better synergy than Gideon Blackblade. That emblem looks strong.

Are there any playable white proliferate effects in the new set? Anything to help get that Emblem out. Contagion Clasp even?

I don't think we can really rely on old school ultimates which take up to 4 turns after casting to become effective.

As for proliferate, the best proliferates would require a splash - Flux Channeler or Evolution Sage

[FTW]

I don't think we can really rely on old school ultimates which take up to 4 turns after casting to become effective.

As for proliferate, the best proliferates would require a splash - Flux Channeler or Evolution Sage

With Oath of Gideon in play, you get the emblem 2 turns after you cast him. Or with proliferate synergies it could be as early as the next turn. That's why I asked about proliferating. If there are viable engines, it makes the Ajani ultimate feasible.

Waiting a turn or 2 is not unreasonable in a Chalice+Humility+Armageddon deck. Geddon Stax regularly wins on turn 20.

[morgan_coke]

I think you'd want the Proliferate land. Karn's Citadel or something. But that Ajani honestly looks win-more to me.

[aedemiel]

I think you'd want the Proliferate land. Karn's Citadel or something.
Karn's Bastion. Yeah you're right, this land looks nice.


But that Ajani honestly looks win-more to me.
Might be true, but the actual Wincon could also be: "Get all the Emblem, wait for the Opponent to deck..."

[Cire]

I think the reason we were excited about Oops, all Gideon was the idea that Gideons could function as beatsticks and win cons as well as preventing you from losing - the idea was for them to double task. If they are just win-cons then realistically this deck will just turn into a white stax deck with 4-8 PW (with the assumption that White PW are the best possible win cons in that deck). Not saying that isn't the logical conclusion, but just want to be open about it.

[FTW]

I think the reason we were excited about Oops, all Gideon was the idea that Gideons could function as beatsticks and win cons as well as preventing you from losing - the idea was for them to double task.

In order for them to be beatsticks and prevent you from losing, the deck really needs multiple Humility.

A 3-mana 4/4 that gets blocked by TNN/Angler or dies to Delver is not much of a threat in this format. Gideon beatdown works when every other creature is a vanilla 1/1. Maybe that looks too much like Stax for you, but it's probably the best shot Gideon beatdown has.

[Cire]

In order for them to be beatsticks and prevent you from losing, the deck really needs multiple Humility.

A 3-mana 4/4 that gets blocked by TNN/Angler or dies to Delver is not much of a threat in this format. Gideon beatdown works when every other creature is a vanilla 1/1. Maybe that looks too much like Stax for you, but it's probably the best shot Gideon beatdown has.

I'm not disagreeing with you - all I'm saying is I've come to the conclusion that this deck is untenable as a separate deck idea (if we are going the route of Stax). Humility doesn't run well with Gideon Blackblade, if you are not running Giddeon Blackblade it seems you are not abusing the Gideon Emblem since you are forced to run more expensive Giddeons. If you are running more expensive Giddeons you might as well run other more expensive Planeswalkers (Like Karn, for instance). If you are no longer running cards to abuse the Gideon Emblem then you are simply looking for the best win-cons for a Humility/White-Stax deck. I'm finding it hard to believe running more than 4 of a non-Karn walker is the best win-con for any Stax type deck.

The above is why I was considering non-stompy builds with the 8 3 CMC Giddeon's since the Stompy build looks to me like a dead end as it seems to default to any other white Stax/Eskimo list. Any theory in regards to any Gideon or PW over the fourth will, IMO lead one to cut it for more traditional and proven options.

[aedemiel]

Oooooor.... We could stick to the 8 CMC3 Gideon we have, lower the overall mana cost of the deck and play more 1-for-1 removall.
After all, StP is still a card and Gideon's triomph was just printed.

[Glass House]

I'm in agreement with Cire. The deck's central idea is abusing the Gideon of the Trials emblem. The moment you deviate from that idea and start cutting Gideons in favor of "optimal" cards like Humility, there is no reason to not push further down that route and just turn the deck into Stax. And at that point, is there any reason for this thread to exist?
So for the sake of giving this deck its own identity, I think that the deckbuilding should revolve around making the most optimal use of the emblem, and not around making the most optimal use of white prison cards.

[FTW]

Humility doesn't run well with Gideon Blackblade

Yes, so don't run Blackblade. Other reasons to not run Blackblade: it's a bad card with weak abilities.


if you are not running Giddeon Blackblade it seems you are not abusing the Gideon Emblem

Without Blackblade you can still play 10-11 Gideons. My list has the same number of Gideons as the Blackblade list. The other Gideons are also easier to keep alive. Jura and Ally protect themselves, while Blackblade does not. Blackblade is the easiest to kill, so it does not add much value for the Emblem beyond fodder.

Gideon, Ally of Zendikar comes down as early as turn 2-3, the same time as Gideon Blackblade. 2WW is no harder than 1WW for a Stompy manabase. If you're comparing it to Blackblade in a non-Stompy deck (e.g. Noble Hierarch), when you consider relative speed (how fast you can deploy things relative to the opponent), 2WW in a 3sphere/Chalice deck could be even faster than 1WW in a non-Chalice deck because your turn 1 play slowed the opponent down.



If you are running more expensive Giddeons you might as well run other more expensive Planeswalkers (Like Karn, for instance).

No, because other walkers don't work with the Emblem. The reason to run Gideons is the emblem, not the mana cost. If the only reason was the mana cost, you could have Liliana of the Veil, Liliana, the Last Hope, or Ashiok, Dream Render instead.



I'm finding it hard to believe running more than 4 of a non-Karn walker is the best win-con for any Stax type deck.

Why is running more than 4 of a non-Liliana non-Jace walker the best win-con for a non-Stax deck?

Either you think the Emblem is worth supporting or you don't. Blackblade doesn't change that equation. If you're just looking for the best walker to ramp to at a given CMC, a single Gideon is never it (at 3 cmc or 4). But Gideon tribal might be.



The above is why I was considering non-stompy builds with the 8 3 CMC Giddeon's since the Stompy build looks to me like a dead end as it seems to default to any other white Stax/Eskimo list.

But the non-stompy build is a dead end as it defaults to losing the game, due to lack of interaction. All they can do is deploy Gideons quickly and watch them die. Without Chalice or Humility, the opponent has too many tools to attack Gideon back. Turn 2 3-mana vanilla 4/4 beatdown isn't a thing in Legacy. See: Leatherback Baloth.

[FTW]

So for the sake of giving this deck its own identity, I think that the deckbuilding should revolve around making the most optimal use of the emblem, and not around making the most optimal use of white prison cards.

I agree the point is to abuse the emblem, but these are not mutually exclusive. You can build around the Emblem while also running Humility.

Gideon of the Trials does not read "cannot create an Emblem unless Gideon Blackblade is in your list". The only absolutes are that the deck needs Gideon of the Trials and other Gideons. Don't cut Blackblade for Humility; cut Blackblade for other Gideons and then also run Humility.

The reason I'm pushing Humility is not to be a Stax clone, but because the other Gideons also suck without Humility. If opponent has normal creatures undisrupted, he can just attack Gideon back (e.g. Delver, Thalia, TNN, Batterskull, Clique, Griselbrand), block Gideon with bigger things, or remove him (e.g. Lightning Bolt, Swords to Plowshares). Vanilla 4/4 beatdown isn't enough pressure to ignore that. If opponent has 1/1s or can't cast spells, Gideon is much more likely to get there. Without the Stax shell, what's the plan to protect Gideons? You can play without Humility, but there needs to be some kind of plan.

[Glass House]

Fair enough.

Onto a different subject: since the emblem requires keeping your Gideons alive, I was trying to find ways of protecting them. Shalai, Voice of Plenty was the first option that came to mind, but that doesn't work with Humility. Privileged Position is another option but the mana cost is a pain.

[FTW]

Onto a different subject: since the emblem requires keeping your Gideons alive, I was trying to find ways of protecting them. Shalai, Voice of Plenty was the first option that came to mind, but that doesn't work with Humility. Privileged Position is another option but the mana cost is a pain.

Shalai seems good in a creature-heavy build without Humility. What other creatures would you support it with?

[Glass House]

Shalai seems good in a creature-heavy build without Humility. What other creatures would you support it with?

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32434-GW-Turbo-Legends
To be honest, Shalai immediately reminds me of this other brew. Some ideas could be salvaged from it. Maybe there is merit in merging the two decks? Cire was experimenting with a green splash, after all...

[FTW]

Interesting GW list.

If you're talking about backing up Gideons with Chalice, resistors and Wasteland recursion, you already had my vote.

[Cire]

Cire was experimenting with a green splash, after all...

I'm currently exploring a variety of probably insane Rock inspired lists and Plug inspired lists. In both versions, the concept is that 8+ Gideons may, in some circumstances, be better than a full GSZ suit. The concept essentially claims that Gideons are win-con and anti-lose cards in one and that such a suit may be better than a variety of answers. The lists are only theory at the moment with no testing results, but the main issue with them so far is color fixing. Both the Rock and Plug run Abrupt Decay, which required GB. The idea is that we should be able to produce W turn 1, BG turn 2 and 1WW turn 3. This is rough. Moreover, Rock and Plug both go in hard for Wasteland recurrence and KOTR toolbox which complicates the matter. Currently testing around the following (slashes indicate the card choices between a Rock and Plug inspiration - they do not add up to 60 cause everything is still in flux). In many cases, the idea behind these lists is that Gideon Emblem Abuse > Liliana control. Not sure how effective that really is, but testing it.

2-4 Mox Diamond
2-4 Chrome Mox / 4 Nobel Hierarch

4 GSZ
0-1 Ramunap Excavator
0-1 Knight of Autumn
1-3 Knight of the Reliquary
2-4 GSZ Targets

4 Chalice of the Void / 4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Trinisphere / 4 Thoughtseize
2-4 Abrupt Decay
2-4 Sylvan Library / 2-4 Dark Confidant

8-10 Gideons

14-16 Other Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Toolbox Lands
1 Dryad Arbor

[aedemiel]

So, with the new «*Karn-build*» trend, what do you guys think we should do?
Since the guy shuts-off our mana-rocks and isn't soft to Chalice and Trini (and the fact that Humility isn't great either), maybe the Stax route isn't playable anymore.

Should we play something more land-destruction oriented? Or just embrace the sorcerie speed Control life with an O-ring focus?
Hell, should we maindeck Disenchant???

[Cire]

So, with the new «*Karn-build*» trend, what do you guys think we should do?
Since the guy shuts-off our mana-rocks and isn't soft to Chalice and Trini (and the fact that Humility isn't great either), maybe the Stax route isn't playable anymore.

Should we play something more land-destruction oriented? Or just embrace the sorcerie speed Control life with an O-ring focus?
Hell, should we maindeck Disenchant???

The Rock Build is actually decent against Karn itself (but weak against Decks that run Karn due to Chalice. The build would currently run around 12 1 CMC cards, I was thinking of reducing that somewhat to better deal with Chalice, just don't know what that would be. Replacing Hierarch with 2 CMC mana rocks, taking out some STP/Thoughtseizes for 2 CMC equivalents and/or enchant/artifact destruction.)

[Poron]

you play white, you play chalice, abandon Trini and go for 4 Mentors + Baubles

[aedemiel]

you play white, you play chalice, abandon Trini and go for 4 Mentors + Baubles
So, just play Bomberman basically?

[aedemiel]

Is this for us? https://i.redd.it/bzx7ma0of8031.png

[bruizar]

Posted this in the spoiler thread, think it belongs here:

MonoWhite Cawblade

4x Serra the Benevolent
4x Gideon of the Trials
2x Gideon Blackblade
1x Nahiri, the Lithomancer
3x Porphyry Nodes
4x Chrome Mox
4x Squadron Hawk
4x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Sword of Sinew and Steel
1x Sword of Truth and Justice
1x Batterskull
2x History of Benalia
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Scroll Rack
2x Unexpectedly Absent
2x Trinisphere
1x Crucible of Worlds
8x Plains
4x Wasteland
4x Ancient Tomb
2x Karakas
2x Hall of Heliod’s Generosity


* History of Benalia and Porphyry Nodes work with Hall of Heliod's Generosity
* Gideon Blackblade is a creature for Serra the Benevolent emblem and a Gideon for Gideon of the Trials emblem
* Sword of Sinew and Steel is to get rid of planeswalkers and artifacts since creatures shouldn't be a problem with Porphyry Nodes
* Sideboard you get access to Seal of Cleansing, Eidolon of Rhetoric and Rest in Peace, cards that will all work well with Hall of Heliod's Generosity.
* Squadron Hawk + Chrome Mox to ramp, Scroll Rack to emulate Jace/Brainstorm with Hawks
* Sword of Truth and Justice on Sqaudron Hawks can make your airforce big quickly and the proliferate helps get your Planeswalkers and Saga up.

[aedemiel]

Honestly, I don't think this list work.

— I like the Porphyry Nodes+Hall of Heliod's Generosity Interaction, but History of Benalia just doesn't belong in Legacy.
— I like Serra, but she's definitely not a 4-of card.
—Squadron Hawk is extremely underwhelming. And it doesn't emulate Brainstorm with a scroll Rac: Land Tax does, and you don't play any. In fact you only play one scroll rack which is enough to not do anything most of the time.
— Only 2 Trinisphere and no Chalice. You're dead to any kind of combo as is.

There is something I really like however it's the "full-equipment-toolbox" idea supported with Nahiri. Maybe there is something here thanks to the new swords. But not in a Gideon deck.

[schweinefettmann]

i'm not sure if this is the right place to be, but i might try to go with all those PWs, standstill and heliod's land. you're generating a huge amount of virtual cards, porphyry nodes will be reducing whatever your opponent is doing, and standstill loop will be drawing you a good number of cards.

I will say though, i'm not really sure those swords are the right ones to be using. the sword of UW seems good here, but the other doesn't give that relevant protections (the only ones you need protection from are white/exile and blue/bounce. destroy doesn't work against gideon, right?). Though the PW killing is possibly relevant in case they land something.

i also don't get how RIP works with heliods land. I guess I'm missing something obvious.

Is there space for karmic justice? could be good as another lock piece.

[FTW]

So, with the new «*Karn-build*» trend, what do you guys think we should do?
Since the guy shuts-off our mana-rocks and isn't soft to Chalice and Trini (and the fact that Humility isn't great either), maybe the Stax route isn't playable anymore.


This "new trend" is overhyped. Maybe it's making more showings at local LGS Legacy nights, but it's 5% of the competitive metagame. We shouldn't change the whole decklist to adapt to it when Brainstorm.dec is still most of the field.

History of Benalia seems really bad.

I also don't understand the point of Porphyry Nodes in a list full of 1/xs. Sure it's great with Gideon Blackblade, but with all the other dorks it'll just hit your own things and not the opponent's. Even if you have a way to protect your own dorks, it's still not hitting the opponent's.

Playing 6 Gideons and 6 non-Gideon planeswalkers seems suboptimal.