What's wrong with Ravager Shops in Legacy?

[sco0ter]

Vintage seems to be currently plagued with a mono brown Ravager Shop deck, as can be seen by the Top 8 of the recent Eternal Weekend (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/vintage-101-it-s-a-ravager-eat-ravager-world-out-there),
where this deck made it five (!) times into Top 8. I think it's accepted that it's one of the best decks in Vintage right now.

Looking at the decklists, the only huge difference to a potential Legacy deck is Mishra's Workshop (besides Moxen obviously, but every Vintage deck runs them).

Everything is else is Legacy legal:

Arcbound Ravager
Hangarback Walker
Walking Ballista
Phyrexian Revoker
Steel Overseer
Chief of the Foundry
Foundry Inspector
Lodestone Golem
Phyrexian Metamorph

Chalice of the Void
Sphere of Resistance
Thorn of Amethyst
Trinisphere

Ancient Tomb
Mishra's Factory
Wasteland


While other Vintage strategies like Oath or Time Vault combo simply cannot be ported to Legacy because their key cards are banned, Legacy has long since established a strategy which probably comes closest to Workshop strategies, known as Stompy shell, basically replacing Workshop with City of Traitors.

Sure, City of Traitors is weaker than Mishra's Workshop, but the Legacy metagame is generally weaker than the Vintage one, too.

Plus, Legacy has more lock pieces available (3Sphere, Thorn, Chalice, Lodestone Golem), which are all restricted in Vintage, but all played as one-offs in the deck.

That said, I really wonder, why there's neither any success with a similar Ravager deck in Legacy, nor any discussion about it.

Literally nothing, not even in the Developmental forum, except an old Steel Stompy (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20016-DECK-Steel-Stompy) thread, which comes close, but it's from 2011 and doesn't consider the new Hangarback Walker/Walking Ballista interaction with Ravager.
There's only 1 deck, which comes close, on mtgtop8.com (http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=17181&d=306339&f=LE).

I've always thought a Tier 1 Vintage deck, which is so dominant must have some impact on Legacy.
Why there's no interest in a deck like this in Legacy?
Why isn't it more successful?
Obviously because it's bad. I am sure, it has been tried. But why is it bad?
Is it really the 1 mana difference from Workshop to City?

I'd be curious about your thoughts.

[Megadeus]

It suffers from the stompy inconsistency. It may crush most blue decks, but it can't beat a lot of the random shit legacy throws at you which doesn't exist in vintage right now because you can't resolve a fucking 1 drop to have off these decks built around them.

[Hanni]

There was an article that Megadeus posted today in the Vintage subforum that you should read.

Basically, the reason why Shops is so good in Vintage is because the blue decks have to dedicate too many slots that are completely dead in the Shops matchup just to be able to compete with the rest of the blue stew, and are therefore underprepared for Shops.

The strategy of artifact stompy is otherwise a very beatable deck without the big mana accel + a million resistors. The thing is, in Legacy, a format which is far more prepared at killing creatures... isn't soft to an artifact stompy deck. Eldrazi Stompy is also much better than an artifact stompy deck in Legacy, since we don't have Workshop but we do have Eldrazi sol lands.

[Whitefaces]

I think it really does boil down to the moxen and Workshop being completely busted, but I'd be interested to see if this could work too. Ravager does have great synergy with Ballista and Hangarback.

[Dice_Box]

Because the mana is not there. You don't have the jewellery and losing Shop and replacing it with City is just terrible. Trust me, I have tried. Shops is my Vintage deck of choice. Sadly the lack of consistency with mana is too much of an anchor holding it back.

[kombatkiwi]

In my opinion the reason why this deck doesn't work in legacy is that lands that tap for 2 rather than 3 are not only worse at casting the spells that cost 3 or more (Chief of the Foundry, Foundry Inspector, Lodestone, 3ball, Big Hangarback/Ballista etc) but because your lands tap for less mana you also get punished by your own spheres even harder than you would otherwise.

Therefore the payoff of playing mono-artifacts Sphere/Chalice in legacy must be to go even bigger with Cloudpost/Metalworker and somebody made top 32 of EW with MUD.

If you don't like the plan of going big with Metalworker then without Workshop there is nothing else that cares about the spells being artifacts, and when you are playing them off the same manabase TKS/Smasher etc are just better cards than Hangarback Walker and Foundry Inspector. (And as somebody already pointed out you get even better mana by doing this because you also have access to Temple/Eye)

[Hanni]

In my opinion the reason why this deck doesn't work in legacy is that lands that tap for 2 rather than 3 are not only worse at casting the spells that cost 3 or more (Chief of the Foundry, Foundry Inspector, Lodestone, 3ball, Big Hangarback/Ballista etc) but because your lands tap for less mana you also get punished by your own spheres even harder than you would otherwise.

Therefore the payoff of playing mono-artifacts Sphere/Chalice in legacy must be to go even bigger with Cloudpost/Metalworker and somebody made top 32 of EW with MUD.

If you don't like the plan of going big with Metalworker then without Workshop there is nothing else that cares about the spells being artifacts, and when you are playing them off the same manabase TKS/Smasher etc are just better cards than Hangarback Walker and Foundry Inspector. (And as somebody already pointed out you get even better mana by doing this because you also have access to Temple/Eye)

At which point, you are no longer playing stompy. Big mana + bombs is a different strategy, and one that can and does do well in Legacy.

[Michael Keller]

Interestingly enough, I'm surprised Cradle isn't leveraged more in a Ravager or MUD-Stompy-esque shell in Legacy more than it should be. With zero-drop creatures, it becomes effectively a Workshop - sometimes better, sometimes worse - but at least it would generate a ton of mana in a hurry. Under those circumstances, powering out equipment like Sword of Fire and Ice, etc. and equipping would be savage.

I know that Steel Stompy was something that was explored in recent years. Gaea's Cradle in Legacy is incredibly powerful in the right deck, and if you're looking for tons of colorless mana it's something to consider.

[H]

I've seen people play "Affinity" locally to reasonable success.

But the difference between tapping for :3: and essentially no drawbacks and :2: with a bunch of drawbacks is very significant.

Also, in general, Legacy decks run a good deal more removal and creatures of their own.

Further, the combo match-up is vastly different when you can't play through your own Sphere's as easily.

There is more to it also, like how the fact that a Vintage Workshop deck is running Moxes is not a "push" just because Blue decks do too. Spheres make Moxes worse than Lands, so you can, at times, "blank" somewhere near 20% of their mana base, simply by being on the play.

[sco0ter]

There was an article that Megadeus posted today in the Vintage subforum that you should read.

Basically, the reason why Shops is so good in Vintage is because the blue decks have to dedicate too many slots that are completely dead in the Shops matchup just to be able to compete with the rest of the blue stew, and are therefore underprepared for Shops.

The strategy of artifact stompy is otherwise a very beatable deck without the big mana accel + a million resistors. The thing is, in Legacy, a format which is far more prepared at killing creatures... isn't soft to an artifact stompy deck. Eldrazi Stompy is also much better than an artifact stompy deck in Legacy, since we don't have Workshop but we do have Eldrazi sol lands.

Interesting article.

So basically Workshop is the only strategy which beats Mental Misstep? And Misstep is the only card/strategy, which beats everything else and enables Delve? Boiling down to two strategies only?
It's weird and complicated and probably the wrong forum to discuss it.

Thanks for your answers so far.

@Dice_Box:
Do you mean consistency issues in Vintage Workshop decks or in Legacy Stompy decks? I could imagine in Vintage these issue are even more grave, because they are more dependant on a single card (Workshop).

@kombatkiwi:
The fact that Eldrazi aren't more successful than Workshop aggro in Vintage, makes me think, that really the card Mishra's Workshop alone is responsible for the success and if you would replace it with City of Traitors it would be completely bad. Which kind of explains the lack of the deck in Legacy.

[H]

Interestingly enough, I'm surprised Cradle isn't leveraged more in a Ravager or MUD-Stompy-esque shell in Legacy more than it should be. With zero-drop creatures, it becomes effectively a Workshop - sometimes better, sometimes worse - but at least it would generate a ton of mana in a hurry. Under those circumstances, powering out equipment like Sword of Fire and Ice, etc. and equipping would be savage.

I know that Steel Stompy was something that was explored in recent years. Gaea's Cradle in Legacy is incredibly powerful in the right deck, and if you're looking for tons of colorless mana it's something to consider.

It's been tried in Vintage (http://www.archive.themanadrain.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=r9hqtsrats0d6r68cl92vcv3m6&topic=46147.msg639641#msg639641), but again, that is kind of an apple to oranges case, because Moxes are vastly better than the Legacy options to "jump start" Cradle.

[Dice_Box]

@Dice_Box:
Do you mean consistency issues in Vintage Workshop decks or in Legacy Stompy decks? I could imagine in Vintage these issue are even more grave, because they are more dependant on a single card (Workshop).
No, I mean in Legacy. Shop is a great card to get, but that is not the only major piece of mana accel you get. The Moxen, Crypt and Sol Ring are massive additions as well and let you punch out broken openings with consistency. Shop is actually almost never my first land drop as I do not want it to eat a Wasteland.

In Legacy your Mana rocks are limited, always have some drawback and are almost never free. Also to run Sol Lands in Legacy means often that your mana base is committing Seppuku almost any time you play a land. Its not an even close to fair fight. I would take my Vintage mana over the best Legacy could throw, even without Shop.

[Drzed]

Even if the mana base in legacy is far from explosive, the ravager-ballista-hangarback package is great. I'd really like to see if it's possible to play an aggressive artifact deck in legacy with those cards. The "modern" style affinity is just bad and will probably never be competitive and I don't really like the uninteractivity with the board the eldrazi decks suffer.

Sent from my MI 5 using Tapatalk

[MGB]

Do you realize how big of a difference there is between Mishra's Workshop and Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors?

A land that taps for THREE MANA with NO DRAWBACKS vs. lands that only tap for two mana and have significant drawbacks...

The difference between three mana and two mana is the difference between Counterspell and Cancel. It's a HUGE CHASM Of difference and the drawbacks are severe on the Sol-lands.

Mishra's Workshop is one of the single most broken lands ever printed and it honestly should be restricted in Vintage. If it were legal in Legacy the format would be 80% Shops decks but as it is with the land banned, a Shops strategy is inferior.

So in summary, yes, it's all because the Workshop is not available in Legacy. Otherwise the deck would be Tier 1 and dominate the format.

[Hanni]

Do you realize how big of a difference there is between Mishra's Workshop and Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors?

A land that taps for THREE MANA with NO DRAWBACKS vs. lands that only tap for two mana and have significant drawbacks...

The difference between three mana and two mana is the difference between Counterspell and Cancel. It's a HUGE CHASM Of difference and the drawbacks are severe on the Sol-lands.

Mishra's Workshop is one of the single most broken lands ever printed and it honestly should be restricted in Vintage. If it were legal in Legacy the format would be 80% Shops decks but as it is with the land banned, a Shops strategy is inferior.

So in summary, yes, it's all because the Workshop is not available in Legacy. Otherwise the deck would be Tier 1 and dominate the format.

Agreed. Mishra's Workshop would be more oppressive for Legacy than most of the other cards on the banned list.

[Nicklas]

MUD would also be busted in Legacy if everyone played 4 Mental Misstep, 2 Pyroblast, 1 Flusterstorm MD.
(And only 1 Brainstorm to shuffle all those dead cards away!)

[Lemnear]

Even if the mana base in legacy is far from explosive, the ravager-ballista-hangarback package is great. I'd really like to see if it's possible to play an aggressive artifact deck in legacy with those cards. The "modern" style affinity is just bad and will probably never be competitive and I don't really like the uninteractivity with the board the eldrazi decks suffer.

Sent from my MI 5 using Tapatalk

The difference is that Legacy variants can't drop their whole hand turn 1.

I feel some people here are underestimating the amount of T1 mana available via SoLoMoxen + Crypt + Vault in addition to Workshop

[Cave]

Many many years ago, when everybody and their mother was playing vintage, and the format was comparable, playerbase-wise, to today's legacy, there was a part of the community that couldn't afford buying p9's and was constantly struggling to find a competitive unpowered archetype. I recall this italian player developing a weird version of what was then called "Stacker". This deck originally a P9 deck but it was quickly transposed to unpowered due to most of its cards being cheap and cost efficient.
This archetype was packing 4 workshop, 6 to 8 other sol lands, waste, strip, factories, 16 lock pieces, 3 crucibles, Metalworkers, Triskelions, Karns and most importantly 6-8 Arcbound Ravager+Myr Retrivier.

It was busted. It put up an incredible number of results against an unprepared field. Ravager synergized so well with the prison strategy it was unbelievable. Set smokestack to 3, pass the turn, make you cry and then sac it eot to give +1/+1 to ravager and avoid the sac effect, then untap, draw, attack, play retriever, recast smokestack? Just too good.


That being said, I think the stax/ravager aggro idea is hardly transposable in legacy, because we need 28-30 mana sources to do what an equivalent unpowered vintage deck can do with 22. Also, if we consider p9's, we notice they have little to no drawback, as opposed to monoliths not untapping and dinamos costing three and much other unlucky stuff. Stompy decks in legacy are indeed powerful but extremely clunky, and that's mainly due to lack of workshops.

[Drzed]

The difference is that Legacy variants can't drop their whole hand turn 1.

I feel some people here are underestimating the amount of T1 mana available via SoLoMoxen + Crypt + Vault in addition to WorkshopYeah i know. It's just that I'd love to play the package in some competitive legacy deck (and I don't think it's unresonable power level wise). What makes the vintage version broken is the fact that every 3 drop in the deck is actually a 1 mana drop and your jewelry manabase makes for a fling like finish with your ravagers without having any drawback.

We can probably use the old "slam chalice and win with an ham sandwich" and just play a bunch of aggressive artifact creatures [emoji14]


Sent from my MI 5 using Tapatalk

[sco0ter]

The difference is that Legacy variants can't drop their whole hand turn 1.

I feel some people here are underestimating the amount of T1 mana available via SoLoMoxen + Crypt + Vault in addition to Workshop

Maybe. But it's not that easy. Saying a Vintage-like Ravager aggro is not viable in Legacy because it lacks the power of Moxen and Workshop is like saying, blue control is not viable in Legacy because it lacks Mana Drain, Recall and Mental Misstep. Or Combo is not viable because it lacks Moxen and restricted tutors. Or Dredge is not viable because it lacks Bazaar of Baghdad.

[malfie13]

currently there is a very large difference between unrestricted mishra's workshops and even as a one of or zero of. The whole landscape of vintage would change if mishra's Workshop was restricted or banned. In Legacy I know I'm biased but I don't think that a ravager shops deck is as well positioned as a prison version of a colorless deck or eldrazi version of an aggro colorless deck. A big prison colorless has pieces that negate common hate and slow down Decks that may be faster than them or keep them from implementing their strategies. eldrazi goes so big so fast and also has creatures that give disruption without getting hit by no rod command recall and other common hate pieces

[malfie13]

and I'm not saying I know anything about vintage, because I don't know nearly as much about as I do about Legacy

[bruizar]

The problem isn't (so much) workshop, the problem is manacrypt, solring and 5 moxen in a deck that doesn't care about color. In artifact decks off-color moxen act as mox diamonds. So, workshop decks can more consistently ramp into relevant spells via jewelry as compared to how colored decks leverage jewelry. Only after this primary reason for the success off artifact decks in vintage, does Mishra's Workshop come into play, just adding to that consistency.

You can't cast an Ancestral Recall off of a Mana Crypt or Mox Ruby, you can cast a Chalice of the Void for 1 off of a Mana Crypt or Mox Ruby (provided you have at least 1 land).

Chalice of the Void was restricted a long while ago now, but there's something to say about it that is relevant. One of the reasons why Chalice was so powerful was because on the play, you got to play all your jewelry and then throw a chalice of the void at 0 on the table to lock your opponent out of playing their jewelry.

I have even seen brews with Serum Powder and Leyline of Anticipation that would cut off your first turn play by dropping jewelry + sphere / chalice in the upkeep when you're on-the-play.

[hymnyou]

MUD would also be busted in Legacy if everyone played 4 Mental Misstep, 2 Pyroblast, 1 Flusterstorm MD.
(And only 1 Brainstorm to shuffle all those dead cards away!)

This

[phonics]

Because vintage shops is essentially a tempo deck, and vintage mana enables the deck to get far enough ahead where it is able to thrive. It probably wouldnt be playable in vintage if dropping some combination of multiple threats or resistors on the first turn wasnt possible.

[Finn]

The best cards in the deck are the ones that cost a fortune and are illegal in legacy. That deck starts with “I have all this broken colorless mana acceleration. What’s the cheesiest cheese I can do with it?

When you take away the accelerator, you are left with just the cheese. Sitting in your hand while your opponent curves out.

[Ronald Deuce]

Feels like the major problem with Shops in Legacy is that you lose access to five Lotuses, which is what makes the deck good.

[MGB]

Feels like the major problem with Shops in Legacy is that you lose access to five Lotuses, which is what makes the deck good.

And four copies of a Black Lotus land.

[Therealmslayer]

One of the basic tenets of keeping a hand with vintage stax is "3 lock pieces by turn 2." legacy stax can't do that without workshop or moxen.

[Dice_Box]

One of the basic tenets of keeping a hand with vintage stax is "3 lock pieces by turn 2." legacy stax can't do that without workshop or moxen.
This is less true today than it once was, since Shops is now a Tempo deck you look less for true prison and more for a delay and a win

[bruizar]

The conclusions in this thread point to 7x mox opal/mox diamond + artifact land + sol land as a starting point for emulating a sphere based deck. But if you go mox diamond you must have access to crucibles, since card advantage is already terriblly hard to come by in a deck like this. I really hate mox diamond..

[Fox]

You're not going to get the drop on people in legacy without accelerators (you're down 11-12 cards: Workshop, Moxen, Crypt, Sol Ring, +/- Lotus). Your prison will be much less effective, and you'll never really have free reign to safely assemble alpha strikes out of nowhere (Ravager/Ballista + Moxen) versus a locked out opponent. You'll also importantly lack the artifact count on board to pull it off even if opponent is locked out; we're probably talking about giving opponent an average of 3 more turns to recover. Your creature suite will be limited to Ravager, Ballista, Revoker...and while you could try to unreliably cast the best Juggernaut (currently Lodestone), you're probably better off with Smuggler's Copter. There are better, and importantly more, Sol Lands available to Eldrazi, which is just as effective at cheese'ing out wins on the back of Chalice while also being a vastly superior Thorn deck. Sphere is an incredibly dangerous card for a non-basic based deck to run in legacy, particularly b/c you lack a single land that can deploy 2-drop cards through it. The other card that you can't run in legacy is Foundry Inspector.

[sco0ter]

The other card that you can't run in legacy is Foundry Inspector.

Why not? Exactly this was part of my question in the OP.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Why not? Exactly this was part of my question in the OP.

Dies to removal, by which I mean the following:

0) Removal is played more in Legacy than in Vintage

1) The net loss of parity when removed by Swords, Push, or Bolt is -2. This, although not great, would be forgivable if the following weren't also true.

2) Only effective once before it is removed, and that is a fairly minor effect (retain priority, cast an Artifact for 1 less).

Though Foundry Inspector itself might be able to find a home in some kind of Ponza Stompy list with Wasteland and maybe Rishadan ports: being able to cheat the cost of Lodestone, Trinisphere, and Thorn of Amethyst seems like it'd go well with mana denial. However it won't be Ravager Shops.

[sco0ter]

Dies to removal, by which I mean the following:

0) Removal is played more in Legacy than in Vintage

1) The net loss of parity when removed by Swords, Push, or Bolt is -2. This, although not great, would be forgivable if the following weren't also true.

2) Only effective once before it is removed, and that is a fairly minor effect (retain priority, cast an Artifact for 1 less).

Though Foundry Inspector itself might be able to find a home in some kind of Ponza Stompy list with Wasteland and maybe Rishadan ports: being able to cheat the cost of Lodestone, Trinisphere, and Thorn of Amethyst seems like it'd go well with mana denial. However it won't be Ravager Shops.

Come on, these "dies to removal" and "can be countered" arguments are not substantial... :confused:
This is true for nearly any creature. Metalworker, Knight of the Reliquary, etc. can even be answered by sorcery speed without having any effect.

[Fox]

Why not? Exactly this was part of my question in the OP.

Have to mind twist yourself to cast this in legacy on turn 1. Assuming you could even turn one this guy, that will be the entirety of your turn. The reason this card is ok in vintage is tap Workshop, deploy, then play Mox, then play Sphere effect. It is highly unlikely this card would see any play in vintage if it cost 4 mana and was anything smaller than Juggernaut; even with a 5/3 stat line, it'd probably remain unplayed due to a cost of 4. In a legacy stompy deck the hardest mana point to overcome is between 2 and 3, while going from 3 to 4 is rather trivial comparatively (we're assuming the stompy player isn't running 8 Moon stripping half mana from own Sol Lands). Past the 2 cmc point (plus number of Sphere in play), you are competing with Lodestone/Trinisphere or a card that threatens to gain massive amounts of mana: Metalworker. You're tapping Ancient Tomb quite a bit more in legacy, so you'll need to eventually answer the lifeloss problem; here is where Metalworker + Wurmcoil begins to make sense, alternatively Urborg to allow Tomb tapping for 1 mana (similar to Moon in red stompy). Once you go down the Urborg path, it's probably easier to attempt a Dark Depths combo with Mirage Mirror (competing again at the 3cmc point). The life point issues arising from heavy Ancient Tomb usage is why we don't see Porcelain Legionnaire - despite the stats, you're already losing the race to Delver.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Come on, these "dies to removal" and "can be countered" arguments are not substantial... :confused:
This is true for nearly any creature. Metalworker, Knight of the Reliquary, etc. can even be answered by sorcery speed without having any effect.

Do you even know what a good dies to removal argument looks like? I mentioned parity directly and alluded to both the capacity to use said card before it gets removed and the capacity to take over the game if it doesn't get removed. A 3 mana card that discounts a single artifact spell by 1 if it is immediatedly removed is bad in a format full of removal.

Metalworker and Knight take over games when they survive. Delver and Thalia 1.0 die at parity or better (unless Gut Shot). And Snapcaster does something when it enters the battlefield, meaning removal doesn't really work.

So before you insult my logical reasoning again, I suggest you learn what 'dies to removal' actually means: here's a good article (although in the context of Modern).

http://modernnexus.com/eldritch-moon-thalia-bolt-test/

[Dice_Box]

If your opponent is using removal on an Inspector I would chalk that as a win.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

If your opponent is using removal on an Inspector I would chalk that as a win.

Took me a while to get the point (and I'm still not sure tbh), but this just goes to show how weak Foundry Inspector is in the Legacy format; if it isn't threatening enough to be removed and yet still dies to removal badly (read at parity loss with no real impact with or without removal) if it was, then it isn't good in the format in question.

[Dice_Box]

Took me a while to get the point (and I'm still not sure tbh), but this just goes to show how weak Foundry Inspector is in the Legacy format; if it isn't threatening enough to be removed and yet still dies to removal badly (read at parity loss with no real impact with or without removal) if it was, then it isn't good in the format in question.

It's a support card, not itself a threat. It's not meant to be a threat but it can be extensively threatening. It's not alone a strong effect, like playing Signal Pest in Modern, but when it's properly supporting the correct framework its value increases.

A more relevant example of this in Legacy would be Rishadan Port. It itself is not very threatening but when it's used in the correct shell it's effective enough you want to remove it asap.

[Fox]

@DiceBox what sequence of plays, particularly early in a game make a 3/2 discounter profitable in legacy? If turn 1, you're down to 4 cards or fewer potentially cast off a City. Doesn't work well after an actual Sphere is deployed (Thorn is fine). Optimal is x=1 Chalice off not-City into turn 2 Inspector? I don't see the payoff from this creature being worth the risk of mid-late game topdecking; the window where it's genuinely helping seems like it'd be pretty narrow and all-in.

[Dice_Box]

It's main use I feel would be in unbalancing effects such as Sphere of Resistance. A Tempo style of deck such as one Ravager is normally employed in would benefit from not hamstringing itself.

That said, my original post holds my most current views, this is not a Legacy viable deck.

[Hanni]

The discount effect is better in an Affinity style deck with lots of one and two mana creatures/artifacts, such as Vault Skirge, Cranial Plating, most of the cast found in the Vintage Shops deck, etc. Although, I think Etherium Sculptor is likely better.

The point here is that I believe the Ravager Aggro plan makes more sense in an Affinity shell than in a Stompy shell. I'd still run Ancient Tomb and Chalice, but I'd build the deck more towards an Affinity approach with artifact lands, Mox Opal, etc.

Legacy cannot make a stompy-esque Ravager Aggro deck work because it lacks the mana that makes it work in Vintage. Eldrazi is the better stompy deck in Legacy.

[Stuart]

Well, turns out we were all wrong. Amadeus Grun just ran his "Men of Steel" deck undefeated till the finals of MKM Frankfurt. (http://series.magiccardmarket.eu/coverage-mkm-series-frankfurt-2018-legacy/)

[Eldariel]

Well, turns out we were all wrong. Amadeus Grun just ran his "Men of Steel" deck undefeated till the finals of MKM Frankfurt. (http://series.magiccardmarket.eu/coverage-mkm-series-frankfurt-2018-legacy/)

Hmm, that's a rather beautiful list (though he probably did benefit a lot of the rogue factor vs. non-Vintage players in the field). Mono-Brown definitely cuts down on the traditional consistency problems Affinity has. Surprising to see Mishra's Factory over Inkmoth Nexus but I suppose Factory's sheer size particularly on the defense could theoretically be more important than the easy Ravager kills off Inkmoth. Definitely seems like the deck works off the one-sided Thorn and Lodestone in addition to Chalice though. The big advantage here over Eldrazi seems to be that all the mana can be used to cast Chalice/Thorn at 1 and indeed, the overall access to the artifact hate spheres. One of the sleekest curves ever but Walking Ballista, Hangarback and Inventor's Fair cut down on the potential flood issues, and the mana denial suite rounded out with Wasteland. One downside is that those are basically all Chalice at 1s; the deck is quite hurt if it ever tries to play Chalice at 0 or 2 and it seems unlikely that you'd generally be able to produce enough mana for Chalice at 3.

[compacta_d]

a friend plays tezzerator at locals.

Runs chalice, lodestone, fow, sol lands, mox diamond and thoptersword combo.

Similar to this list.

[CptHaddock]

a friend plays tezzerator at locals.

Runs chalice, lodestone, fow, sol lands, mox diamond and thoptersword combo.

Similar to this list.

Similar = they both play artifacts?

[Stuart]

(though he probably did benefit a lot of the rogue factor vs. non-Vintage players in the field)

For sure. The fact that Null Rod/Stony Silence isn't really a presence in Legacy is a pretty big opening for these decks.


Surprising to see Mishra's Factory over Inkmoth Nexus but I suppose Factory's sheer size particularly on the defense could theoretically be more important than the easy Ravager kills off Inkmoth.

Another note: without Cranial Plating, Inkmoth is slightly less good.

[compacta_d]

Similar = they both play artifacts?

Similar in that they both go stompy with chalices and lodestone golems/phyrexian revokers.

minus the tax artifacts/affinity robots, plus planeswalkers basically.

edit- i do think he has those types of artifacts in the sb for storm etc. But not mained

[Eldariel]

Coloured artifact decks have always had consistency issues in Legacy though. And you miss out on a lot of power if you don't play Sol Lands but instead run Artifact Lands, and it's hard to get enough sources of any given colour for reliable use. Somewhat of a problem with Tezzerator as much as most of the coloured Stompy shells too.


For sure. The fact that Null Rod/Stony Silence isn't really a presence in Legacy is a pretty big opening for these decks.

Another note: without Cranial Plating, Inkmoth is slightly less good.

Not only lacking hate but in general not knowing how to play against/with Modular tricks and Ravager in general. It's a rather tricky card, as is Hangarback and Walking Ballista. Speaking of Cranial though, lacking Cranial Plating also feels like it makes Vault Skirge significantly worse. Without SoFI, Steel Overseer or Ravager, it's a 1-mana 1/1 Lifelink Flier. In a deck with only 9 cards to "turn it on", this feels rather suspect. I get that it helps with Mox Opal but I'm left wondering if it's really the best artifact creature for curve purposes or in general to saturate the curve here... Certainly, the problem with Chalice at 1 causes some issues with Arcbound Worker and it's not clear Worker would be as good as Vault Skirge anyways. Something like Ornithopter could also bear counters rather well too and help turn on Mox Opal earlier though, for instance. Eh, I should probably test the list before I make even obvious-seeming changes.

[Dice_Box]

http://series.magiccardmarket.eu/2018/01/07/amadeus-grun-men-steel/

MAIN DECK:
4 Walking Ballista
2 Lodestone Golem
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Steel Overseer
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Vault Skirge
2 Hangarback Walker
3 Mox Opal
4 Lotus Petal
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Karakas
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Inventor's Fair
4 Wasteland

SIDEBOARD:
2 Spellskite
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Ensaring Bridge
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Sorceress Spyglasses
2 Ratchet Bomb

[mistercakes]

i like this list, to me the real innovation was dropping the artifact lands entirely. i think it's a bit of a trap that i've fallen for with ravager and mox opal. i ran affinity for a while with chalice maindeck and thorns in the sb, and there's no reason they aren't good in a heavy storm meta, which i think it was in frankfurt.

[Admiral_Arzar]

I forgot this thread existed when I posted this last month: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32181-Steel-Stompy-2-0-Ravager-Shops

My list differs quite a bit from the Frankfurt list, but it is similar enough in concept I suspect there was some convergent evolution going on. I ended up dropping Mox Opal for more lands due to having less cheap artifacts, since I don't run Vault Skirge.

[Crimhead]

I don't know a whole lot about Vintage archetypes these days.

But from a Legacy perspective I see a MUD deck but lacking Metal Worker; which is an interesting exclusion to me.

[Dice_Box]

It's not running Metalworker because it's a tempo deck. You want to limit the amount of cards that have no impact the turn you play them. It's also why you see Petal over Diamond. A one shot is more efficient than a tempo loss.

[Sisyphos]

I don't know a whole lot about Vintage archetypes these days.

But from a Legacy perspective I see a MUD deck but lacking Metal Worker; which is an interesting exclusion to me.

You see a MUD deck? So you see a deck in which the creature base only contains one three drop (the mentioned Metalworker, which is incidentally a mana accelerant), focuses on 4, 5 and 6 mana plays (Lodestone, Forgemaster, Wurmcoil), and goes up to 8 mana finishers (Ugin). Interesting. I see a deck that runs two four drops at the top of its curve. I mean yeah sure, you can play Ballista or Hangarback for as much mana as you can get, but thats not how the deck plays out. Simply because a deck plays artifacts and Metalworker makes mana by revealing artifacts does not mean that Metalworker helps the game plan of every deck playing artifacts. The two decks have different goals and therefor play different cards. Just like TES plays Rite fo Flame and ANT doesn't or like Manaless Dredge chooses to draw first and regular Dredge wants to play first.

The way the deck is build means that it runs fine on two mana, perfectly on four and having more than that means starting to be flooded nine times out of ten. The deck runs cards that can use excess mana to minimize the disadvantages of flooding out, but it is not the goal of the deck to have more than four mana available. With a MUD shell on the other hand having less than four mana means being mana screwed nine times out of ten.

[Crimhead]

Until Dice (TY Dice) explained this was a tempo deck, I didn't really understand the game-plan at all. Ramping into large Ballistas and Hangarbacks seemed to make sense to me.

I don't have a whole lot of experience playing Stompy builds - and I also have a hard time understanding why WB is even good without big mana. Even in Lands (which I am quite well experienced in), I've seen it in SBs but don't really get it. I'm here to learn man! :)

[Dice_Box]

The trick is not to cast a big Walker (either of them) but to artificially inflate them with Revoker. Using Revoker to eat unnecessary Artifacts and then sacing it to itself to move the counters onto one of the big XX creatures. Then you can either go wide or go direct. You get bonus points for when you have 2 Revoker, a walker and a Ballista. Then shit gets crazy.

The rest of the deck is built to delay and to hit hard in the early to mid game. You don't want to play long here. Cards like Steel Overseer help with your plan, granting more counters you can abuse. It's also the reason your only looking at 2 Lodestone. 4 mana is two cards you could play otherwise, unless the disruption is important that mana is better spent elsewhere.

I have done some editing, adding in Smuggler's Copter. I think that is what the deck could abuse alongside Blinkmoth Nexus but I will find out next week.

[phonics]

It plays the tempo game but unlike something like delver, most of its weenies have a ton of utility that help it go wide or over the top while being resilient to things like all forms of removal and combat tricks. Its like some stompy/ tempo hybrid.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Revoker
Ravager :wink:

[Crimhead]

Thanks for the education guys.

I really hope this deck grows and thrives. I have a special fondness for colourless stompy decks (including stompy hybrid), and I also love to see tempo decks that are not good-stuff Delver variants (that's why I love Infect). What a fabulous format this is. :smile:

[Man of Steel]

A Friend told me (after the MKM Series), that you are dicussing my deck here

I think it is funny, that most of you want to cut Vault Skirge, because this was one of the latest Innovations for the deck. In my opinion Vault skirge pushes this deck over the edge. Flying and lifelink is key for the deck. In addition to that it is a curve filler because it is the only one mana spell you can play without being punished by cov

[Crimhead]

We love your deck!

Thanks for Chiming in, that makes good sense about Skirts.

There is more discussion here:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32181-Steel-Stompy-2-0-Ravager-Shops

[Man of Steel]

Thank you. To understand my build of the deck, you have to know that the engine of the deck is so big (the following list of cards is what i call the engine, because you need all of them to make the plan work), that almost all the other cards have to do more than one thing:

4 Walking Ballista
4 Steel Overseer
4 Arcbound Ravager
3 Mox Opal
4 Lotus Petal
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Mishra`s Factory
2 Inventor`s Fair
4 Wasteland

Other cards:



2 Lodestone Golem Disruption and clock
1 Sword of Fire and Ice Clock and Hatecard for strix and TNN
4 Phyrexian Revoker Disruption and curvefiller
4 Vault Skirge Lifegain, flying and curvefiller
2 Hangarback Walker Combocard und resilient threat
2 Karakas Mana and Answer to almost unbeatable threats

[Eldariel]

A Friend told me (after the MKM Series), that you are dicussing my deck here

I think it is funny, that most of you want to cut Vault Skirge, because this was one of the latest Innovations for the deck. In my opinion Vault skirge pushes this deck over the edge. Flying and lifelink is key for the deck. In addition to that it is a curve filler because it is the only one mana spell you can play without being punished by cov

Could you describe in more detail how you usually use Vault Skirge? It costs 2 life to cast so you need to hit for 3 or more damage for it to gain you any life and you need some pump effect for it to truly take over the game and it's still cold to removal. Is the plan of action to cast Chalice for 1, Skirge and then dump counters on it immediately off Ravager/Overseer? Do you often use it with SoFI to race? It seems to me like a decent number of the time it'd be just a 1/1 lifelink flier that costs a lot to cast and a terrible topdeck. It also makes turning your Mox Opals on slower than running a 0-drop in its stead. However, I can definitely see the appeal of Ravager + Skirge - I'm just wondering how it does without Ravager (since you only run 4 and little card selection on top of that), particularly when Overseers are answered? If you don't have Chalice against a removal rich deck, do you ever add stuff on top of Skirge anyways or do you just wait to dump stuff on it when they're forced to remove other stuff? How do you use it? I mean, what's the gameplan with this card?

[Man of Steel]

all your questions depent heavyly on the matchup and the situation

Your all around game plan is to be an aggro or a prison deck

if you are the aggro deck, you Need to have an overseer, ravager or Golem maybe the sword Counts as well. Why vault skirge is good in conjunction with These Cards is selfexplaining Except for the Golem. If you "only" have the Golem, the games are normaly played at such a slow pace that a 1/1 skirge is totally fine (because you have already 6 power and a sphere effect)

if you are the prison deck, having at least a thorn or chalice the games are likely played at such a slow pace that a 1/1 skirge is totally fine, because in the top deck war under a disruption permanet my deck Plays better than pretty much everything else, which makes an evasive threat that may give you 1 or 2 more tomb activations is all you want. And it makes other topdecks even better

i hope this helps you to understand how to use the skirges. In many cases you wait for your Opponent to act first if you have a ravager