Punishing Thieves

[Stryfo]

Hi, I am Stryfo, but my MTGO handle is Clashed and I've been working on this deck since early December of last year (not really new, but potentially new to some of you). Recently, I think I've hit something pretty close to the sweet spot. Without any further nonsense, here is my current list:


3 Dack Fayden
3 Punishing Fire
4 Brainstorm
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Polluted Delta
2 Volcanic Island
2 Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Swamp
4 Baleful Strix
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Thoughtseize
1 Fatal Push
1 To the Slaughter
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
1 Tropical Island
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Ponder
1 Gurmag Angler
2 Counterbalance

Sideboard

2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
1 Hydroblast
1 Sultai Charm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Notion Thief
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Thoughtseize
1 Nihil Spellbomb




Since the banning of DRS, the deck has moved closer to a Grixis deck with green sideboard cards. I have decided that the late game inevitability that DRS would help provide in the form of gaining life should be replaced by counterbalance. The idea is that a lot of early losses were coming after stabilization at low life to something like a lightning bolt. We were also missing a mainboard "hatebear" and CB helps with that. I think the build above is pretty decent, I've had plenty of success in MTGO leagues, but have had a really poor run in the challenges, which seems to have been a mixture of bad luck in the matchup lottery and randomly losing favorable matchups.

Some thoughts I've not had time to explore in the new format:

A 22nd land. I probably want to try a colorful spell land (maybe creeping tar pit?). I think the main has a spot currently occupied by angler that is really awkward, and it's very possible it should just be another land.

Hymn in the sideboard for control/combo matchups. As much as I hate Hymn, it is certainly very powerful and can help secure the combo and control matchups (though control is already very good and most combo matchups are close to even).

Bring Chandra back into the 75. I really miss playing with Chandra, but I think she just makes already good matchups better and doesn't fix any holes. She might still be worth exploring.

I miss playing with Rise//Fall, but I can't find a way to conveniently get enough creatures into the deck and still have a reasonable combo matchup (I'd like 10 creatures if I'm playing Rise//Fall)


Here is a video primer to the deck that will eventually include all of the common matchups:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRE2IDmIvgk&list=PLMUt9SKyAlpiopQICRTCdLem1I-2y_S_R



I hope all of you coming to this deck are looking forward to stealing some wins!

Thanks for reading, I look forward to any thoughts, experiences, and ideas you all might have. :smile:

[ESG]

Needs more Liquimetal Coating. ;)

[Shaka1333]

I saw you Top8'ed again in the Challenge yesterday, that's very impressive man ! Congratz :)

The deck looks like a blast to play and is for sure favored against Czech Pile.

Some random questions :

Notion Thief seems a bit random, a 2nd Leovold or any other cards (Ponder, Thoughseize etc...) seems better. Are you 100% convinced that it is the best spell here ?
What about Chandra ? Is she really better than a 2nd Jace ?
You are really super light against combo main deck and even post board, it doesn't seem enough ... Storm and SnS are still quite played even on MTGO so I would be afraid to try your deck because of that.
How has been performing Rise/Fall and Search for Azcanta ?

Can you explain a bit your sideboard ? It looks very versatile but some cards seems better than other like Flusterstorm > Invasive Surgery and Thoughtseize > Duress, Surgical > Nihil Spellbomb

Thank you.

[mgrinshpon]

I've been playing this deck a bit myself in various forms and found Leyline of the Void and Rest in Peace to be hugely problematic. Decks like NicFit, Aggro Loam, etc. all run it and without maindeck enchantment removal, it's felt hugely problematic. I used to run a singleton Sultai Charm and Abrupt Decay (which, notably, doesn't hit Leyline), but recently I've been wanting to try Golgari Charm in the sideboard answer. Thoughts?

Also, why Chandra over the second JTMS? I can see arguments for both but I haven't been enamored with her, especially since she's red and I try not to fetch for red until later in the game.

P.S. I'm regularmother on twitch and periodically tune in. Love the channel, love the decks. Cheers!

[square_two]

I'm surprised Chandra isn't in more of the 4c/pile decks. She comes down with so much loyalty and really demands an answer. Provides card advantage while your opponent is scrambling to do something about her before she ults. I say this though, as someone who doesn't really play those goodstuff decks. I've been killed several times by her, and I've watched Stryfo play a couple leagues with her and she is good every time she comes down. Dodges the expected REB that would hit Jace (I'm not sure how many decks are running BEB/Hydro).

[Hanni]

I'm surprised Chandra isn't in more of the 4c/pile decks. She comes down with so much loyalty and really demands an answer. Provides card advantage while your opponent is scrambling to do something about her before she ults. I say this though, as someone who doesn't really play those goodstuff decks. I've been killed several times by her, and I've watched Stryfo play a couple leagues with her and she is good every time she comes down. Dodges the expected REB that would hit Jace (I'm not sure how many decks are running BEB/Hydro).

I would say the casting cost is why it doesn't see play. Red is a light splash color in Pile, and Chandra costs RR. Deathrite Shaman may make rainbow mana, but the greedier you build your deck, the more often you're going to lose to yourself, let alone the damage that Wasteland's can cause.

[mgrinshpon]

I would say the casting cost is why it doesn't see play. Red is a light splash color in Pile, and Chandra costs RR. Deathrite Shaman may make rainbow mana, but the greedier you build your deck, the more often you're going to lose to yourself, let alone the damage that Wasteland's can cause.

At the time I was running the same manabase as above, but maybe cutting 1 Island and adding a Badlands or Volcanic Island might make Chandra easier to run with.

[Hanni]

At the time I was running the same manabase as above, but maybe cutting 1 Island and adding a Badlands or Volcanic Island might make Chandra easier to run with.

My comment was in reference to Czech Pile, not the list in the OP. The list in the OP is much heavier into red with 3 Grove of the Burnwillows, 2 Volcanic, and 1 Badlands, so Chandra makes more sense in here.

[Stryfo]

@shaka1333:

Notion Thief is an insanely powerful spell in the mid-late game and leads to blowouts that no other spell in the deck can provide. In addition it is easy to cast in terms of colors, and is a reasonable beater. In addition to that, it has absurd synergy with Dack Fayden. It may be that something else could be better, but Notion Thief has been very strong for me.

For a long time I was running two Jaces and the Chandra is a new addition to the deck, but so far I have been very pleased. She clocks better than Jace, she is better removal most of the time, and she is red rather than blue, and her starting loyalty is very high all of these are pretty great qualities. She doesn't dig for answers as well as Jace, but in many matchups, that's not important.

The maindeck is admittedly light on combo hate, but postboard I do not agree, there are ~12 cards to bring in against storm and ~11 against SnS. I think the storm matchup is unfavorable (I'd guess ~40%), and I believe the SnS is close to even.

I have been incredibly impressed by Rise//Fall, it is frequently an easier to cast Hymn to Tourach, and in the late game when both people are ground to dust, it frequently becomes something like a draw three by returning a Snapcaster or Strix from your graveyard and the board. As for Search, my current estimation is it's the weakest card in the list, but it's still a very powerful card, I haven't decided what I'd replace it with yet.

The sideboard is meant to be extremely wide, so that your postboard matchups improve by a significant margin across the board. I'd agree that in many situations flusterstorm is better than invasive surgery, but against decks like lands, being able to counter+exile Loam is extremely powerful. Surgical extraction is better against decks like Reanimator than Nihil Spellbomb, but Spellbomb can be brought in against Snapcaster decks and you don't have to play a card that is largely card disadvantage in a grindy matchup. As for Duress, I like being able to bring in a discard spell specifically against burn, this could mean that Inquisition of Kozilek could be better in that slot, I hadn't thought of that until just now.

@mgrinshpon:
I have not had problems with Leyline decks or Rest in Peace decks, Those decks are going down on cards (and in the case of Rest in Peace, tempo) to beat a graveyard centered subtheme of a control deck, The deck functions fine without a graveyard because of the high density of planeswalkers and generally powerful cards, punishing fire being a 1 for 1 post RiP doesn't take into account that they had to spend time and cards to put RiP into play. As for things I've tried to deal with random enchantments: I've tried Abrupt Decay, but I cut that after the banning of top because your mana gets much better when you're not required to have green in the early turns. I've tried Chaos Warp, which was a little bit too cute. Sultai Charm was fine, and it's my favorite of those three.

As for golgari charm, I really like how versatile it is, and I haven't run it in this deck, but I've run it in similar decks and it was powerful. I might try cutting Search, moving the second Rise//Fall to the main, and putting a Golgari Charm in the board. It's one of those cards you can bring in across the board, Storm, Delver, DnT, potentially SnS if there are enough bad mainboard cards, and even more fringe decks with lots of enchantments.

Regarding the manabase, I think it is very reasonable to cut the 2nd island for a 9th fetchland, it is my personal preference to have a bit better insurance against Blood Moon, but if you don't care about that, trim basics all you like.

[megaflippo]

@shaka1333:

Notion Thief is an insanely powerful spell in the mid-late game and leads to blowouts that no other spell in the deck can provide. In addition it is easy to cast in terms of colors, and is a reasonable beater. In addition to that, it has absurd synergy with Dack Fayden. It may be that something else could be better, but Notion Thief has been very strong for me.

For a long time I was running two Jaces and the Chandra is a new addition to the deck, but so far I have been very pleased. She clocks better than Jace, she is better removal most of the time, and she is red rather than blue, and her starting loyalty is very high all of these are pretty great qualities. She doesn't dig for answers as well as Jace, but in many matchups, that's not important.

The maindeck is admittedly light on combo hate, but postboard I do not agree, there are ~12 cards to bring in against storm and ~11 against SnS. I think the storm matchup is unfavorable (I'd guess ~40%), and I believe the SnS is close to even.

I have been incredibly impressed by Rise//Fall, it is frequently an easier to cast Hymn to Tourach, and in the late game when both people are ground to dust, it frequently becomes something like a draw three by returning a Snapcaster or Strix from your graveyard and the board. As for Search, my current estimation is it's the weakest card in the list, but it's still a very powerful card, I haven't decided what I'd replace it with yet.

The sideboard is meant to be extremely wide, so that your postboard matchups improve by a significant margin across the board. I'd agree that in many situations flusterstorm is better than invasive surgery, but against decks like lands, being able to counter+exile Loam is extremely powerful. Surgical extraction is better against decks like Reanimator than Nihil Spellbomb, but Spellbomb can be brought in against Snapcaster decks and you don't have to play a card that is largely card disadvantage in a grindy matchup. As for Duress, I like being able to bring in a discard spell specifically against burn, this could mean that Inquisition of Kozilek could be better in that slot, I hadn't thought of that until just now.

@mgrinshpon:
I have not had problems with Leyline decks or Rest in Peace decks, Those decks are going down on cards (and in the case of Rest in Peace, tempo) to beat a graveyard centered subtheme of a control deck, The deck functions fine without a graveyard because of the high density of planeswalkers and generally powerful cards, punishing fire being a 1 for 1 post RiP doesn't take into account that they had to spend time and cards to put RiP into play. As for things I've tried to deal with random enchantments: I've tried Abrupt Decay, but I cut that after the banning of top because your mana gets much better when you're not required to have green in the early turns. I've tried Chaos Warp, which was a little bit too cute. Sultai Charm was fine, and it's my favorite of those three.

As for golgari charm, I really like how versatile it is, and I haven't run it in this deck, but I've run it in similar decks and it was powerful. I might try cutting Search, moving the second Rise//Fall to the main, and putting a Golgari Charm in the board. It's one of those cards you can bring in across the board, Storm, Delver, DnT, potentially SnS if there are enough bad mainboard cards, and even more fringe decks with lots of enchantments.

Regarding the manabase, I think it is very reasonable to cut the 2nd island for a 9th fetchland, it is my personal preference to have a bit better insurance against Blood Moon, but if you don't care about that, trim basics all you like.

Hi Stryfo/clashed,

been following your list since months and played with it several times in paper: love its versatility.

couple of questions:

- do U see any room for "unearth" and/or "Kess Dissident Mage" in your list?

- Any ideas on the list of 'Diego Massone' : https://thelibraryatpendrellvale.com/london-legacy-monthly-september/
He has been getting some good results in last couple of months in london legacy and list is quite similar. Your idea on fire and ice in the list?

- could U give some advise on how to sideboard against the different matchups, based on the list here provided? In particular: in what matchup is pulse of murasa a good card? See U trimmed it down to 1 (if I'm not mistaken U started with 2 copies in the SB a while ago?)

- In the meantime I found your stream of 2 days ago on twitch : definitely will have a good look ;)...

[Stryfo]

@megaflippo

- I think there is room for unearth, it's just not a card I personally like that much. As for Kess, you could put her in, but she's in this awkward spot because she costs four and is blue, I suppose if you wanted to cut notion thief for her you could, but outside that I'm not sure where she fits.

- As for the list you posted, I think it's very reasonable, with the exception of Dread of Night in the sideboard, the white deck matchups are so good across the board that I don't believe it is necessary to have such a narrow answer. As for Fire//Ice I love it, my original lists had two or three, but I eventually found they tended to just make the good matchups better, and be cycling+ against everything else.

- There are a lot of matchups to cover, so I can't hit all of them, but I'll try to touch on a few of the more common ones.

Czech Pile:This matchup is all about the grind, usually you can outgrind them, as long as you don't get stuck under Leo. I like to make it so my cards are good at all stages of the game, and also like to hedge against cards like TNN, because a few lists play it.

In: 2x Pyroblast 1x Bitterblossom 1x Rise//Fall 1x Nihil Spellbomb 1x Diabolic Edict
Out: 1x Thoughtseize 1x(0 on the draw) Fatal Push 3x Force of Will 1x(2 on the draw) Baleful Strix

Delver: Here I am grouping the most popular delver lists together as they largely play out the same way (this assumes they are in red for pyroblast). This matchup is about staying alive, if the game goes long, you will win.

In: 1x Deed 1x Pulse of Murasa 1x Rise//Fall 1x Diabolic Edict 2x(1 on the draw) Pyroblast
Out: 1x Jace 1x Notion Thief 1x Thoughtseize 2x (1 on the draw) Force of Will 1x Search for Azcanta

Storm: This matchup is hard, you need to disrupt and establish a clock, which is why DRS is so powerful here.

In: Everything except edict, bitterblossom and hydroblast (unless TES, then you bring in the hydroblast too).
Out: Fatal Pushes, Punishing Fires, The Edict, Liliana the last hope, a grove, Chandra, and the Baleful Strixes.

I know there are many more matchups to cover, but for now I'll leave this as a start.

As for the card Pulse of Murasa, it is much more versatile than it seems at first glance. Pulse is great against all of the delver decks and burn and a passable card against storm and graveyard based strategies like reanimator (against storm you can bounce lands from their graveyard to their hand to effectively counter a hellbent infernal tutor).

[Fjaulnir]

I played Stryfo's Challenge list twice yesterday, had a 1-4 and a 5-0 so those are some very varied results :tongue:

I lost 70% of my losses due to Wasteland though, it seems. 1 is usually fine, but all them Delver decks were Brainstormikg and Pondering aggressively towards 2-3 Wastelands each game - that was just impossible to recover from usually.


A card that really overperformed in my 5-0 was Search for Azcanta. Against Moon Stompy it was my only way to victory combined with DRS. Turn 1 fetch Swamp, DRS. Get Mooned on their turn, exile my fetch for blue ald play Azcanta to keep milling lands/instants for DRS. Had to Revoker Chrome Mox to keep them off Chandra/Confluence mana but apart from that I didn't do much :tongue:

[megaflippo]

@megaflippo

- I think there is room for unearth, it's just not a card I personally like that much. As for Kess, you could put her in, but she's in this awkward spot because she costs four and is blue, I suppose if you wanted to cut notion thief for her you could, but outside that I'm not sure where she fits.

- As for the list you posted, I think it's very reasonable, with the exception of Dread of Night in the sideboard, the white deck matchups are so good across the board that I don't believe it is necessary to have such a narrow answer. As for Fire//Ice I love it, my original lists had two or three, but I eventually found they tended to just make the good matchups better, and be cycling+ against everything else.

- There are a lot of matchups to cover, so I can't hit all of them, but I'll try to touch on a few of the more common ones.

Czech Pile:This matchup is all about the grind, usually you can outgrind them, as long as you don't get stuck under Leo. I like to make it so my cards are good at all stages of the game, and also like to hedge against cards like TNN, because a few lists play it.

In: 2x Pyroblast 1x Bitterblossom 1x Rise//Fall 1x Nihil Spellbomb 1x Diabolic Edict
Out: 1x Thoughtseize 1x(0 on the draw) Fatal Push 3x Force of Will 1x(2 on the draw) Baleful Strix

Delver: Here I am grouping the most popular delver lists together as they largely play out the same way (this assumes they are in red for pyroblast). This matchup is about staying alive, if the game goes long, you will win.

In: 1x Deed 1x Pulse of Murasa 1x Rise//Fall 1x Diabolic Edict 2x(1 on the draw) Pyroblast
Out: 1x Jace 1x Notion Thief 1x Thoughtseize 2x (1 on the draw) Force of Will 1x Search for Azcanta

Storm: This matchup is hard, you need to disrupt and establish a clock, which is why DRS is so powerful here.

In: Everything except edict, bitterblossom and hydroblast (unless TES, then you bring in the hydroblast too).
Out: Fatal Pushes, Punishing Fires, The Edict, Liliana the last hope, a grove, Chandra, and the Baleful Strixes.

I know there are many more matchups to cover, but for now I'll leave this as a start.

As for the card Pulse of Murasa, it is much more versatile than it seems at first glance. Pulse is great against all of the delver decks and burn and a passable card against storm and graveyard based strategies like reanimator (against storm you can bounce lands from their graveyard to their hand to effectively counter a hellbent infernal tutor).

Thanks @Strfyo for the reply and extra info:

Any suggestions left for the UW control matchup (mostly on mentor or retreat the angels) ? Is that a favorable MU or not..?
Same question for Eldrazi...they can be very quick with big beats...

[Stryfo]

The UW matchup is actually pretty good, they aren't exactly trying to grind you down like the black decks, and they really only have a handful of important cards, which you accurately identify as mentor and entreat. Because of this I like to bring in deed and keep in deluge. Force of will is also good here because you need to be able to counter key spells.

The Eldrazi matchup is not very good (largely because Pfire is mediocre), but it's not terrible. Their nut draw will be hard to beat, but having access to sweepers, strixes, and editcs to slow them down, and pulse of murasa, rise//fall, and snapcaster to grind them out means that you can still win it. You can't cut all of the forces here because sometimes you need to counter an early chalice, and equally important, sometimes you need to counter all is dust.

[Maagler]

I have been playing aversion of this deck for a while, and I think it is really well positioned now. It can out-grind other versions of Czech pile, but i have been having some issues with combo matchup. I have tuned the sideboard to make storm a better mach.

the list:

Main:
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Gurmag Angler
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Notion Thief

1 Ponder
1 Thoughtseize

4 Brainstorm
1 Kolaghan's Command
4 Force of Will
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Chaos Warp
2 Fatal Push

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil
3 Dack Fayden

2 Badlands
2 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Punishing Fire
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Bloodstained Mire


Side:
2 Pyroblast
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Flusterstorm
3 Duress

[polski]

I have been playing aversion of this deck for a while, and I think it is really well positioned now. It can out-grind other versions of Czech pile, but i have been having some issues with combo matchup. I have tuned the sideboard to make storm a better mach.

the list:

Main:
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Gurmag Angler
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Notion Thief

1 Ponder
1 Thoughtseize

4 Brainstorm
1 Kolaghan's Command
4 Force of Will
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Chaos Warp
2 Fatal Push

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil
3 Dack Fayden

2 Badlands
2 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Punishing Fire
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Bloodstained Mire


Side:
2 Pyroblast
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Flusterstorm
3 Duress

Why chaos warp?

[Stryfo]

@Maagler, I like a lot of the stuff going on with your list, but I have a few questions and suggestions.

First, why ancient grudge? I haven't really had much trouble with artifacts in any of my lists, so I'm curious why you've decided to play two grudges.

Second, how has Tasigur been? He seems cool, but I have never tried him, instead opting for the zombie fish or Tombstalker.

Third, If you want some cards that are good against storm but also a fair number of other awkward matchups, try phyrexian revoker, I have been extremely pleased with it in my lists.

[Maagler]

@Maagler, I like a lot of the stuff going on with your list, but I have a few questions and suggestions.

First, why ancient grudge? I haven't really had much trouble with artifacts in any of my lists, so I'm curious why you've decided to play two grudges.

Second, how has Tasigur been? He seems cool, but I have never tried him, instead opting for the zombie fish or Tombstalker.

Third, If you want some cards that are good against storm but also a fair number of other awkward matchups, try phyrexian revoker, I have been extremely pleased with it in my lists.

Ancient grudge is against chalice deck and also comes in in a surprising number of matchups. I like that I can throw it in the grave with Dack Faden and leave it for later. I will side it in against death and taxes, mud, eldrazi, painter and infect. I have a lot of chalice decks in my meta right now and with the grudges and the bebs in the side they are easy matchups.

Tasigur has been pretty good, but I have been thinking about switching over to tombstalker. The only real issue with Tasigur isthat he is legendary and weak to Karakas, but you are so heavily favored against death and taxes (which is where you see Karakas the most) so I don't think it matters. Activating Tasigur is great in the late game when you are just looking for cards in hand and can singlehandedly push the opponent out of the game. The flying beater may be better though due to it's speed and evasion, not sure if the BB is too hard on the Mana.

I will try revoker, used to run that in 12post vs storm and liked it.


As for Chaos Warp: it is a catch all/maindeck answer for Merritt leige and blood moon. Usually whatever comes off the top is less scary than the thing you are warping away.

Speaking of the lands strategy I just wanted to imput that I think prioritizing getting to dack emblem is the way to go to win that match. By using Deathrite to stall for time and disrupting any fast combo. After you get the emblem, they have a really hard time winning as you will just take their token with a punishing fire. Chaos Warp also really helps here by removing a fast 20/20.

[Maagler]

I have some videos of playing the deck:

Vs Eldrazi:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYS8QyvTznc

Vs URG chalice stuff
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mNthNPARyk

Vs Storm:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5F0w8ZkjLk

Vs Eldrazi again:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBtK4uHdUAU

[Doishy]

I have some videos of playing the deck:

Vs Eldrazi:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYS8QyvTznc

Vs URG chalice stuff
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mNthNPARyk

Vs Storm:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5F0w8ZkjLk

Vs Eldrazi again:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBtK4uHdUAU

G1 versus Eldrazi you play two lands in a turn. Sweet deck though.

[Maagler]

G1 versus Eldrazi you play two lands in a turn. Sweet deck though.

Oops that was sloppy. Not sure it mattered much that game.

[Doishy]

Oops that was sloppy. Not sure it mattered much that game.

I think it did as it meant you had the hard-cast Force of Will the next turn (I mean opponent really should have double-wasted first but still....) but anyways, no big deal.

Dack-Thief is one of my favourite interactions so I would love to try this as a build concept start (don't own enough to go for the full deck). What is the minimum number and ratio of Thieves to Dacks you think would work?

[Stryfo]

My first list started with 4 Dacks 2 Thieves, but I'm currently at 2 Dacks, 1 Thief, I wouldn't really go below 2 Dacks, and honestly, I wish I could find room for a third, but there is a bit of a glut at the 3 drop slot.

[JackaBo]

Yeah saw that too. Nevertheless, deck (dack?) looks fantastic. Feel like sleeving it up.

[Stryfo]

I took some of the ideas I've gleaned from this thread and made some changes to my deck, based in part on what I expect at GP Santa Clara.

From the list on the front page:


Main
-1 Search for Azcanta
-1 Liliana, the Last Hope
-1 Thoughtseize
-1 Ponder

+1 Tasigur
+1 Collective Brutality
+1 Rise//Fall
+1 Lightning Bolt

SB:
-1 Bitterblossom
-1 Rise//Fall
-1 Invasive Surgery
-1 Duress

+1 Thoughtseize
+1 Force of Will
+1 Hydroblast
+1 Collective Brutality

As you can see, I am trying to hedge more against burn with an additional hydroblast and two collective brutalities. The bolt was because I wanted one more clean answer to Leo, and I like having access to bolt. This felt like a lot of changes, but so far I am happy with them. I think these changes are for the best, because the worse matchups gain significant points, and the lost points are small, and largely to already strong matchups.

Edit: I have played two leagues with this build now and am 9-1. My thoughts are:

Brutality is kind of meh against things that aren't burn or delver but I don't want to cut it. Maybe I will move it to the board and bring the 4th force main.
Tasigur giving raw cards for brainstorm and Dack is cool, even if they give you junk.
I'm repeatedly happy with how Rise//Fall plays in this deck against a wide variety of decks, and it remains easier to cast than hymn.

[Maagler]

Brutality is kind of meh against things that aren't burn or delver but I don't want to cut it. Maybe I will move it to the board and bring the 4th force main.
Tasigur giving raw cards for brainstorm and Dack is cool, even if they give you junk.
I'm repeatedly happy with how Rise//Fall plays in this deck against a wide variety of decks, and it remains easier to cast than hymn.

I tested out rise//fall after your suggestion, seems decent in the combo matchup which is something I'm looking to improve. Also had an interesting play against reanimator where I bounced a creature from his grave and a creature he had in play. while I don't expect that to come up much I think that it is a good flex spot for right now and will catch many players off guard.

I think one of the more powerful aspects of the deck is the fact that people seem to have a hard time figuring out what to do against the deck. they either try to oversideboard to fight the graveyard or they lean to heavily on things like chalice/blood moon/leovold to try to get them there.

[itrytostorm]

I took some of the ideas I've gleaned from this thread and made some changes to my deck, based in part on what I expect at GP Santa Clara.

From the list on the front page:


Main
-1 Search for Azcanta
-1 Liliana, the Last Hope
-1 Thoughtseize
-1 Ponder

+1 Tasigur
+1 Collective Brutality
+1 Rise//Fall
+1 Lightning Bolt

SB:
-1 Bitterblossom
-1 Rise//Fall
-1 Invasive Surgery
-1 Duress

+1 Thoughtseize
+1 Force of Will
+1 Hydroblast
+1 Collective Brutality

As you can see, I am trying to hedge more against burn with an additional hydroblast and two collective brutalities. The bolt was because I wanted one more clean answer to Leo, and I like having access to bolt. This felt like a lot of changes, but so far I am happy with them. I think these changes are for the best, because the worse matchups gain significant points, and the lost points are small, and largely to already strong matchups.

Edit: I have played two leagues with this build now and am 9-1. My thoughts are:

Brutality is kind of meh against things that aren't burn or delver but I don't want to cut it. Maybe I will move it to the board and bring the 4th force main.
Tasigur giving raw cards for brainstorm and Dack is cool, even if they give you junk.
I'm repeatedly happy with how Rise//Fall plays in this deck against a wide variety of decks, and it remains easier to cast than hymn.

You planning on doing a quick side boarding guide for some of the most prevelant decks? (Pile, D&T, Storm, Delver, S&S, etc.)

[Stryfo]

@itrytostorm:

I'm happy to include my sideboarding advice, in fact, I did so for some matchups in an earlier post. I'll put all of this information together in the original post.

[itrytostorm]

@itrytostorm:

I'm happy to include my sideboarding advice, in fact, I did so for some matchups in an earlier post. I'll put all of this information together in the original post.

Have you thought about trying flip Jace? Or have you tried and it underwhelmed?

[scarl19]

Have you thought about trying flip Jace? Or have you tried and it underwhelmed?

I have tried him out as a one of, the only problem that i have found is that he doesnt provide a clock in the matchups where you actually need a threat.

[Stryfo]

For those interested in seeing how this deck generally plays, I'm going to stream the Legacy Challenge around 8:00am PST today with my most recent list, I'd love it if you came and joined =)

twitch.tv/stryfo

[Ninjastill]

For those interested in seeing how this deck generally plays, I'm going to stream the Legacy Challenge around 8:00am PST today with my most recent list, I'd love it if you came and joined =)

twitch.tv/stryfo

Do you have an updated list by chance :)?

[Fox]

Do you have an updated list by chance :)?

Sadly the list was stolen.

[Stryfo]

This is where I'm at currently:


4x Deathrite Shaman
3x Baleful Strix
1x Leovold, Emissary of Trest
3x Snapcaster Mage

1x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Liliana of the Veil
2x Dack Fayden

4x Brainstorm
1x Diabolic Edict
1x Fatal Push
1x Lightning Bolt
4x Force of Will
1x Kolaghan's Command
3x Ponder
3x Punishing Fire
2x Rise//Fall
1x Thoughtseize
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Spell pierce

1x Badlands
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
2x Island
4x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Swamp
1x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea
2x Volcanic Island

SB:

1x Sylvan Library
1x Diabolic Edict
1x Hydroblast
1x Notion Thief
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Pulse of Murasa
2x Pyroblast
2x Collective Brutality
1x Surgical Extraction
2x Thoughtseize



Not sure about the spell pierce main, but it has been ok.

[NedB37]

Anyone know if there is a Discord group for either this and/or general Grixis control/thieves etc..?

[Giggioz]

Hi Stryfo!

Thanks for sharing this spicy list, i love it.

I've found it here: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/984707#paper and i'm considering to give it a spin in real :)

Just some random question:

- why Phyrexian Revoker over Spyglasses ?

It seems more a control card here and you do not want it to be removed so easily. Spyglasses give us information about the opponent's hand which is not irrelevant for a control deck. It also blocks thespian stage, wasteland, karakas for leovold, port, etc etc.

- why Ob Nixilis Reignited ?
In which matchups you think is good?
I think a 5 mana spells should be more impactful :P

Bye and thanks again!

[SJerusalem]

I've had the chance to take the current version of this deck out a couple of times for LGS weekly events (no IQs or Premier Events yet). Getting the hang of Dack has been a learning curve for me, but I like how he can either generate "free" draws with Punishing Fire discards or clear chaff off the top of the deck post-Ponder or Brainstorm.

Chandra has been A+ for me. The 4cc is relevant, and it's been helpful to hold it back from counters and to clear out the creatures before jamming it so that it sticks around and does work.

I've been owned a couple times by Storm, mostly due to suboptimal sideboarding by me and some unfortunate mulligans. Stryfo's sideboarding guide in this thread should help remedy that for future matches, although I do feel like it's a matchup that I'll need to dodge in bigger events.

Pernicious Deed is NOT what they are expecting against True-Name Nemesis. I've been very happy with the versatility of that card!

The Storm player pointed out to me that Pulse of Murasa is live in that matchup - if they cast Infernal Tutor as their last card and hold priority to crack Lion's Eye Diamond, you can respond after the crack to put a land back into their hand :eek:

[Stryfo]

Regarding phyrexian revoker: it is there as a hate bear against combo, with mild applications against moon stompy. None of these decks play much removal for it, and when they do, it’s largely removal that can also hit spyglass. The draw for me is that revoker can name LED and lotus petal and presents a clock(this being particularly relevant).

Ob nixilis is admittedly the flex spot of the deck, I wanted my 75th card to be a bomb in control mirrors, and as such, it had to check several boxes:
1)non-blue (bonus points for non-red)
2)non-creature
3)4+ cmc

I came to the conclusion from these that I should play either a second Chandra or an ob nixilis. I ended up leaning towards ob nixilis because he doesn’t get blue blasted. Though really, any engine that satisfies the above criteria could be worth testing. Ob nixilis has been pretty good for me though, it’s a bomb in the matchups you need a bomb.

[Giggioz]

Well,

with such constraints i can just propose a couple planesawalker, i guess:

Nissa, Steward of Elements
It's blue but it has a flexible curve (you can play it with DRS at turn 2)
All 3 abilities are relevant.

or

Vraska the Unseen
A long time ago she has been played in BUG variants.
The destroy ability is a catch all answer. Ultimate should do its job.

Not a fan of both, just some idea thrown on the table.

[Guitarnewf]

Hey all, I have been looking at this deck for a bit now, and have decided to take the plunge and build it. I was wondering if there are any updates in regards to matches, or any words of wisdom anyone has to offer.

Thanks!

[Giggioz]

Today my second take on this deck, i played it a couple of weeks ago in a 13-people tournament and lost in top4 a superclose g3 vs dredge

Today 37 people tournament with this list:

1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Dack Fayden
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil
3 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Ponder
2 Rise // Fall
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Abrupt Decay
1 fatal push
1 Inquisition of kozilek
4 Brainstorm
1 Diabolic Edict
4 Force of Will
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
1 Badlands
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

Sideboard

1 Diabolic Edict
1 Pyroblast
1 red elem blast
1 Hydroblast
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Notion Thief
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Pulse of Murasa
1 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction (the last tournament i've lost vs dredge and i added one of this in place of a jace)
1 Sylvan Library
1 Thoughtseize
1 Abrupt Decay

T1 - Maverick 1-1
T2 - Elves 2-1
T3 - Maverick 0-2 (he sees 4 wastelands g1 and 3 wasteland g2 + top deck of sword fire and ice when i stabilized with dack + strix in play
T4 - SmallPox 2-1
T5 - BR control (moon, confidant, discards, rabblemaster, lilianas) 2-0
T6 Team America - we go to turns on 1-1 with me in play 1 or 2 planeswalker and double punishing fire in gy. He's nice enough to concede and let me get in the top8

Top8 vs another Team America
I've lost the close third game after a superlucky brainstorm of him (he sees flusterstorm + daze for my edict and liliana) and my first turns in screw.

The deck is fun, full stop.
You have a bunch of unexpected 1x that draw a lot of attention from the audience but at the same time the *do* something.
I fronted a variety of decks and i had always a chance to win, it's freaking hard to play, you can lose games for a small wrong decision and i think i did negligible mistakes almost in every game (more than my average i mean).
In 3 matches we went to turn and to avoid draws i played at a very fast peace, even so you risk to draw too much, our victory conditions are not the fastest in the planet.

Sideboarding is quite difficult also.

I liked my main, i never had the opportunity to bring in Pulse of Murasa, i know the trick vs nausea and its obvious implications vs burn but it seems to narrow for me. This card could do a nice job even vs midrange but you do not have place for an extra card when you are sideboarding 5-8 cards.
Notion Thief is fringy too but i'll give him another chance.
I think i want to add a good finisher when i'm short in time in g3 and maybe vs BUG, i was thinking to Tasigur or Gurmag Angler.

That's all folks, thanks to the creator for the mix of strength and fun he forged in this deck :)

[Stryfo]

Another Legacy Challenge, another top 8, I'm loving this current list that's even lighter on win conditions than before. I was very happy cutting down on the green in many matchups. For those interested, here is the VoD, it's quite long though.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/250665991

[vithorn]

Took this list to MKM Hamburg Trial. 18 players, 5 rounds with Top8

1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Dack Fayden
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Kess, Dissident Mage
3 Ponder
2 Rise // Fall
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Fatal Push
1 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
1 Diabolic Edict
4 Force of Will
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire

1 Badlands
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:
3 Pyroblast
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Notion Thief
1 Sylvan Library
2 Flusterstorm
1 Thoughtseize
1 Hydroblast

Matches:
2-1 vs BUG Control
2-1 vs RB Reanimator
1-2 vs Eldrazi
2-1 vs Elves
ID in R5

Top8:
2-1 vs ANT
2-1 vs Soldier Stompy
Prize split in the final match.

I went with idea that deck is super fun to play but didn't really expect to pull up any results. I also had to streamline sideboard a little bit, 15 one-of's is way too much for me to handle.
I wanted to try Kess, in the end I drew her once vs BUG when game was over anyway and vs ANT where flying was relevant to deal final damage through bunch of goblins. No idea if she's better than Chandra or 2nd Leovold.

Thanks Stryfo, deck was blast to play. Time to get this on MTGO. :D

[gizlow]

Hey guys, what are your general tips and suggestions for this deck to fight Lands? I run 2 Surgicals in the board which comes in ofc, but like I said, I'm looking for general tips and tricks. I'm also aware that the MU is pretty bad, and as such I don't expect it to become favourable in any way. So far I've managed to win only a single game against them by chumping Marit Lage while managing to ult Dack and finally stealing her with a Push. Is that really our best bet in the MU?

I've considered going back to running a singleton Angler in the main, getting early beats in with a 5/5 did some work.

[Stryfo]

I have had a very favorable matchup against lands personally. You need to be aware of the proper modes to use with DRS, sometimes you should exile lands rather than loams, but it's all about reading the texture of the game. Having so many mainboard ways to kill Marit Lage (rise//fall, jace, edict, Dack Ult) really helps with the matchup. The most important thing is to identify what axis they are trying to fight you on and craft a plan to beat it. If they have pfire grove going you need to hold most of your threats so that they can't wipe you in one turn cycle. If they are going for mana denial, hold your fetches in play, try to land DRS. if they are going for a fast lage, you need to be prepared with strix and a removal spell.

Dack stealing Mox diamond is HUGE, it cuts off the mana denial plan really well and in fact, sometimes let's you destroy the mana of the lands player.

In fact, all of your planeswalkers are incredibly strong.

When you see your opener, you need to decide which of their plans you can beat, and which you can't. If you can't beat mana denial (game 1) for example, gamble is probably their scariest spell, because it finds their loam. If you can't beat Marit Lage, it's usually crop rotation. Pfire grove is probably the hardest of their plans to beat in game one, but if you have a force of will and an early deathrite, the way to do it is to just eat their pfires. You can recoup card advantage later with your walkers and close the game out this way.

I know this isn't exhaustive, but it's difficult to do anything exhaustive in a game as complex as magic. In any case, I hope this helps you pick up a few more wins, good luck!

[NegatorITA]

I have had a very favorable matchup against lands personally. You need to be aware of the proper modes to use with DRS, sometimes you should exile lands rather than loams, but it's all about reading the texture of the game. Having so many mainboard ways to kill Marit Lage (rise//fall, jace, edict, Dack Ult) really helps with the matchup. The most important thing is to identify what axis they are trying to fight you on and craft a plan to beat it. If they have pfire grove going you need to hold most of your threats so that they can't wipe you in one turn cycle. If they are going for mana denial, hold your fetches in play, try to land DRS. if they are going for a fast lage, you need to be prepared with strix and a removal spell.

Dack stealing Mox diamond is HUGE, it cuts off the mana denial plan really well and in fact, sometimes let's you destroy the mana of the lands player.

In fact, all of your planeswalkers are incredibly strong.

When you see your opener, you need to decide which of their plans you can beat, and which you can't. If you can't beat mana denial (game 1) for example, gamble is probably their scariest spell, because it finds their loam. If you can't beat Marit Lage, it's usually crop rotation. Pfire grove is probably the hardest of their plans to beat in game one, but if you have a force of will and an early deathrite, the way to do it is to just eat their pfires. You can recoup card advantage later with your walkers and close the game out this way.

I know this isn't exhaustive, but it's difficult to do anything exhaustive in a game as complex as magic. In any case, I hope this helps you pick up a few more wins, good luck!


The new main deck looks so smooth!
It makes me wanna try it over Czech pile but what scare me off is the headhache the Singleton sideboard will make me
Do you use rise/fall in discard mode often? Will surely catch up that video of yours sooner or later

[Stryfo]

I use Rise//Fall very frequently as a discard spell, but the key is, except against combo, I almost never use it that way on turn 2. You can't mana screw people with it, but that's not an issue against most decks.

Edit: The sideboard is very customisable, this is just the configuration that I like.

[Amazingxkcd]

is the lifeloss too much to not run thoughtseize instead of IoS in the main?

[walked]

I've been jamming your list in locals for the last few weeks and I've had more success with it than Grixis Delver which says a lot. Not sure if it's because it fits my style more or what, but this deck is phenomenal and my current favorite

Something irks me about running only 3 Ponder but that's just my OCD.

[NegatorITA]

I use Rise//Fall very frequently as a discard spell, but the key is, except against combo, I almost never use it that way on turn 2. You can't mana screw people with it, but that's not an issue against most decks.

Edit: The sideboard is very customisable, this is just the configuration that I like.

Question about Pernicious
I've always loved her in deck that have big mana, because for small token/chalice EE works better (1 less mana to destroy chalice/ETW tokens, ETA tokens, and so on), but I recognize that Pernicious Deed can be a powerful sweeper without touching PWs:
Is that the application you use it for? dealing with aggro based deck too? have you tryed EE in its place? Just curiosity :P

[Stryfo]

@NegatorITA:

I have not tried EE, though I like how deed cleans up everything, regardless of cmc. It is usually a multiple turn mana investment, but it clears ALL of the (non walker) problems, not just the problems at a particular cmc. I like it against a lot of decks. EE is not as good I think, but the fact that it doesn't take green mana is a big deal.

[Atreju]

Hey Stryfo I really enjoy your deck! Would you care to make an updated sideboard guide for the most popular decks? All the one-ofs makes me scratch my head..

Grixis Delver
4c Control/sultai control
Elves
ANT
Miracles
Turbo Depths
Reanimator
Sneak & Show
Red Stompy
Sultai Delver
Lands
Eldrazi Stompy
Big Eldrazi
Burn

[Stryfo]

I have updated my current list and a current sideboard outline for some of the most common matchups on the first page. Check it out and let me know if you have any further questions.

[Atreju]

I have updated my current list and a current sideboard outline for some of the most common matchups on the first page. Check it out and let me know if you have any further questions.

Thanks a bunch!

Well since you're asking I might as well ask you for tips from the final decks in my local meta!

*BUG food chain
*MUD (non tanglewire version)
*pox
*goblins
*energy field U/W

And since I have no shame I might as well ask you whether you would tweak your 75 knowing my exact meta... On Sunday I expect to be facing the following decks:

*BUG food chain
*BUG delver
*Burn
Dragon Stompy
Goblins
4c Control
*Turbo Depths
*Lands
MUD
UW energy field
ANT
Big Eldrazi
Eldrazi Stompy
*Infect
Grixis Delver
Elves
D&T

*=likely to make top four so might face more than once during a tournament. Everything else is usually 1x except sometimes grixis delver. So basically all the normal metagame decks except there's less grixis delver and zero graveyard strategies (because they've been hated out too many times), but more chalice decks than usual, and Burn+Marit Lage are the decks to beat. I've been thinking about maybe switching thoughseize for kozilek's in the main like you did last week (less vulnerable to the aggro decks) and possibly switch the spellbomb for a third edict to deal with Marit and Ulamog.


I'll be sure to write up a report if you would help me out of course!

[Stryfo]

BUG food chain - This matchup is pretty good on the balance, but sideboarding can definitely be challenging, I'd probably go with something like:

In: 2x Pyroblast, Decay, Notion Thief, Library

Out: 2x Force of Will, 1x Liliana, 1x Fatal Push, 1x Edict


*MUD (non tanglewire version) - MUD tends to be one of the best matchups for this deck, 3 Dacks:

In: Decay, Deed, Edict

Out: Thoughtseize, Liliana, Baleful Strix

*pox- I don't have a ton of experience playing against pox with this deck, but my estimation is:

In: Library, Spell Pierce, Decay
Out: Thoughtseize, Edict, Deluge


*goblins - this matchup is also pretty good, pfire is a house as I'm sure you know:

In: Deed, Marsh Casualties, Decay, Library, Hydroblast, Pulse of Murasa

Out: 4x Force of Will, Thoughtseize, 1x Rise//Fall

*energy field U/W - Not a lot of experience here either:

In: Decay, Deed, Library, Spell Pierce, 2x Pyroblast, Notion Thief

Out: Kommand, Fatal Push, Edict, Bolt, Deluge, 1x Rise//Fall, 1x Baleful Strix

In the meta you describe I would make the IoK <-> Thoughtseize switch, and I would probably swap the marsh casualties in the board for a 3rd edict. Spellbomb is quite good against Lands and ANT, and is serviceable against 4c control.

Looking at the meta more closely it's probably also reasonable to make the discard spells into collective brutality rather than IoK and Thoughtseize, you'll get points against burn, and if you really expect to play it a few times, I'd want to be prepared. If burn is not a big deal I don't think you need to go to that length though.

I hope this was helpful, good luck in your event!

[Atreju]

Thanks a bunch! That was very helpful

Match 1: Food Chain 1-1

G1: as always super grindy, it took 30 minutes as we both answered all the threats as they hit the board. I managed to kill all his birds but in the end he resolved both a food chain and a relic of progenitus for the win.

G2: I managed to stick jace on turn 3 as he missed a land drop for his abrupt decay, followed by a dack which prompted a scoop. He has big problems with jace.

G3: similar to G1, super grindy and the clock ran out

Match 2: MUD: 0-2

G1: I keep a land with two brainstorms and a bolt plus lands. He's on the play going T1 chalice T2 lodestone golem T3 chalice. I had no chance.

G2: I kept three duals and tons of gas but got locked out with 2x wasteland. A Wurmcoil Engine was followed by Blightsteel Colossus so my edict didn't help much.

These games were perhaps a litt unlucky but this doesn't really feel like such a good matchup despite Dack's utility. There's too many things I need to answer outside the threats with trinispheres, chalices and karn, scion of urza, and he is very fast. I haven't played it extensively but I'm at best 40-60 in games.

Match 3: Energy Field 2-0

G1 he gets some mana denial going with stifle and back to basics, but I get Dack out to filter to find more answers than he has threats and he goes down to strix beatdown with a stifled snapcaster coming in to finish the job.

G2 he stumbles on mana for a turn and again the threats vs answers balance doesn't line up in his favor

Opponent makes a funny remark saying that I have the perfect Bling deck (I have a lot of masterpieces etc in it) since I get to see all the pretty cards with the ridiculous amount of card draw.

Match 4: Lands 2-0

G1 he slows me down a little bit with wasteland and double rishadan port but not too bad as a DRS hits the board. I make a big mistake by tapping all my black mana to play Liliana the turn he lets me go to main phase without tapping my lands, despite having a diabolict edict in hand. Of course he goes crop rotation, activate thespian's stage and swings in for the win. D'oh.

G2 I get a Jace and a strix on the board and I start ticking up jace. After finding my spellbomb he has no way to get through my shields so I win.

G3 he goes taiga, mox Diamond, discard dark depths cast life from the loam. I surgical his loam, finding one more in hand and steal his mox with dack for a complete blowout. Dack found Chandra and the game ended soon after.

We're four players at 2-1-1 and I don't make the cut to top four.

Turbo Depths wins the finals (yet again) over MUD.

The top four in the League is now Dark Depths - Lands - MUD - Food Chain so I think I want at least one pithing needle in the 75 as it good against all the four. I think I'll drop the Marsh casualties as D&T already seems favorable and Elves isn't all that common.

[Stryfo]

@atreju:

I am curious as to how pithing needle is good against food chain and MUD, but I agree it is decent against lands and depths, and if those are giving you trouble, it's worth trying.

I'd encourage you to test a bit more against MUD, I haven't played against it a ton (probably less than 10 matches) but I don't recall ever losing a match to it, and I have felt in control every time I play against it.

Marsh casualties is definitely a card to cut if you don't expect much delver, but I just like having a bunch of answers to TNN.

[HardBrain]

Since I discover this deck I locked up in room and test with other players and have never looked again to have my own creation and later compare with all of U.
thats why this is my first post here. after many many tests:
4 shaman
3 strix
3 snapcaster
2 Leovold
——-12
2 dack
——-14
4 brainstorm
4 preordain
4 fow
1 counterspell
1 pyroblast
2 kolaghan command
1 bolt
1 abrupt
3 PFire
1 edict
———36
2 seize
2 rise fall
———40
4 tarn
4 delta
3 sea
3 burnwillow
2 volcanic
1 tropical
2 island
1 swamp
1 badland
———61 lol xD
2 flusterstorm
1 blue elemental blast
2 REb
1 needle
1 golgari charm
1 new damping sphere
1 library
3 extraction
1 dread of Night ♥️
1 edict
1 life from the loam

Any thoughts after my life project xD before GP Birmingham.

[Amazingxkcd]

cut the counterspell, make it SB if you really want it

[kingtk3]

I have updated my current list and a current sideboard outline for some of the most common matchups on the first page. Check it out and let me know if you have any further questions.

Thanks for your hard work! I have a couple of questions:

why no more Leovold in the 75, but still a copy of Notion Thief? I agree that with Dack in play the latter is stronger, but overall the power of Leovold is superior
why preordain instead of ponder?
have you considered null rod instead of revoker as a side card against storm (shuts LED and Petal) which helps in the Mud and Big Eldrazi MU? You lose some punch against sneak attack decks but gain something to play against stoneforge adn D&T


Thank you

[Stryfo]

@kingtk3

*why no more Leovold in the 75, but still a copy of Notion Thief? I agree that with Dack in play the latter is stronger, but overall the power of Leovold is superior

- I have frequently been unimpressed with leovold in this deck, not because it is not powerful, but because it is not powerful enough for the risk involved. The deck really is grixis with a VERY light green splash, and I want to be able to cast all of my spells all the time. If I'm going to play a green spell, it should be backbreaking -or- life saving. Decay is one of the few answers we have to counterbalance, Pulse of Murasa is good in a large number of matchups and giving this deck another strix/snap/DRS and six life is a huge swing. Deed destroys people. Leovold is too frequently a low value 2 for one against the decks you want it against, and is just not worth having in the deck against others. IF you want to switch up the mana base to support a bayou or 2nd trop, I could see Leo being a solid choice, but I hate losing to blood moon, so I like the three basics, and I'm not sure what else you'd be able to cut.

As for the comparison with Notion Thief, having flash is REALLY good against many of the decks you want the effect against. Not just because you can get them, but because you get to hold up mana and fundamentally change how people have to play against you.

*why preordain instead of ponder?

-I'm just trying preordain, I like it so far, it hasn't really stood out in games as being much better or much worse than ponder.

*have you considered null rod instead of revoker as a side card against storm (shuts LED and Petal) which helps in the Mud and Big Eldrazi MU? You lose some punch against sneak attack decks but gain something to play against stoneforge adn D&T

-I don't think Null Rod is as good as revoker. Against storm, it's important to have a clock, and it already shuts down LED. The artifact mana draws out of big eldrazi are not the problem, the problem is the post + eye of ugin draws. MUD is a good matchup and is pretty rare, so I'm not going to devote any cards to it. I think I'd rather have revoker against DnT than null rod, primarily because it also hits Mother of Runes. DnT is also already one of the best matchups for this deck as is, so I'm not too worried about having dedicated cards for it.

As an aside, I think if you are interested in something good against storm and Big Eldrazi, you could try damping sphere.

[Atreju]

@atreju:

I am curious as to how pithing needle is good against food chain and MUD, but I agree it is decent against lands and depths, and if those are giving you trouble, it's worth trying.

I'd encourage you to test a bit more against MUD, I haven't played against it a ton (probably less than 10 matches) but I don't recall ever losing a match to it, and I have felt in control every time I play against it.

Marsh casualties is definitely a card to cut if you don't expect much delver, but I just like having a bunch of answers to TNN.

Doesn't pithing needle shut down the card food chain? It's not fantastic against MUD but it does hit Forgemaster, Ugin, Lightning Greaves, Karn Scion

[Stryfo]

Food chain is a mana ability, so pithing needle does not hit it, phyrexian revoker does though. Both can name ballista, which is good.

[contra]

FTFY

Big Eldrazi: This matchup is abysmal obviously the best matchup you could hope for, the way you win is with a fast walker almost every time. If you want to try damping sphere it would help against this deck and storm quite a bit.

Anyway, congrats on the 10-0! Really terrific piloting.

[kingtk3]

FTFY


Anyway, congrats on the 10-0! Really terrific piloting.

What event you're referring to? I'm quite interested in the deck ^_^

[Pilhas]

What event you're referring to? I'm quite interested in the deck ^_^

Legacy Challenge
(https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2018-05-21)

[kingtk3]

Congratz to Stryfo!

A couple of questions:

Is Sylvan Library really needed in the side? This deck already seems great at grinding people, so I think to play a copy of damping sphere to help against combo and eldrazi and MUD.
How do you weight the single Thoutseize in the maindeck against a copy of Leovold? I know you already said that you're not impressed with Leo in the deck, but I'm wondering if he can be better than the single target discard you play, which seems a little random.
What are your thoughts about switching deluge and deeds between main and side?



Thanks for the feedback!

[Stryfo]

@kingtk3

As far as Sylvan library goes, it's not strictly necessary, but I've always liked having a few grindy cards to bring into the deck that are non blue and not soft to graveyard hate, and sylvan has filled that position nicely.

The singleton thoughtseize could easily be a leovold, but I don't think that the thoughtseize is random, when I build my decks I build a full 75, this means that sometimes cards I want access to bleed into the main, like when I played a singleton pyroblast. And this deck can handle odd one ofs better than most due to Dack Fayden, so I think the value of the single mainboard thoughtseize is fine. If you want to play Leo, that's completely reasonable, just not my preference.

Switching Deluge to the board and Deed to the main is interesting, I think I'd want to play deluge main for mana purposes, but if you are playing a second fetchable green then that switch could be very reasonable.

[kingtk3]

@kingtk3

As far as Sylvan library goes, it's not strictly necessary, but I've always liked having a few grindy cards to bring into the deck that are non blue and not soft to graveyard hate, and sylvan has filled that position nicely.

The singleton thoughtseize could easily be a leovold, but I don't think that the thoughtseize is random, when I build my decks I build a full 75, this means that sometimes cards I want access to bleed into the main, like when I played a singleton pyroblast. And this deck can handle odd one ofs better than most due to Dack Fayden, so I think the value of the single mainboard thoughtseize is fine. If you want to play Leo, that's completely reasonable, just not my preference.

Switching Deluge to the board and Deed to the main is interesting, I think I'd want to play deluge main for mana purposes, but if you are playing a second fetchable green then that switch could be very reasonable.

Thanks for your feedback.

You're perfectly right: considering the 75 the Thoughtseize in the main complements the discard package with Inquisition in the side and the 2 Fall in the main. What I thought is that discards will come in mainly against combo, and Leovold is another card which is great against combo, while also being a clock, and being relevant against fair decks too.
However playing Leovold will probably change a little the sideboard plans, since you may be one card short in the side out, so that's the reason why I was asking for advice.

Regarding deluge and deed: the former can kill gurmag angler and other big creatures (like something cheated into play or ramped into) and it always costs 3 mana, however the life cost can be a liability against decks with reach or simply make it uncastable.
Deed wipes the board more clean than deluge because gets rid of artifacts (chalice, trinisphere...) and enchantment (azcanta, library, rest in piece...) too. It can be fired at instant speed (relevant for attacking manlands like nexus or entreat in your EoT) and doesn't care about your life total. However you have to spend actual mana so high CC threats may be out of reach.

Each have its pros and cons, but basically are cards that cost more resources than the initial mana cost, being more mana or life.

Another thing: I switched the Diabolic Edict in the side with a copy of to the slaughter as an answer to PW and hopefully another 2 for 1.

What do you think?

[Stryfo]

I’ve always been a fan of to the slaughter, but for a long time a dismissed it in this particular deck because turbo depths was very popular and I felt I needed mana efficiency. Depths is not as common these days so it’s completely reasonable to make that swap, I’ll probably try it out myself in the next week.

[kingtk3]

How would you change the mana base to accomodate -1 Thoughtseize, +1 Leovold and swap between deluge and deed from main to side?

[Stryfo]

I'd cut an island for a bayou and probably change 2 of the tarns for a pair of misties, I'm sure about island->bayou, less sure about 2 tarn->2 misty.

[kingtk3]

I think if any I would drop an Island for a Bayou, but only if I'd change thoughtseize for Leovold. In theory if you only swap deluge and deed from main to side you should be good with the mana base, since deed is a card you're already playing in your 75s.

What do you think about Tarmogoyf in the side? In the 4c control thread they are playing 3 to improve the clock against combo, TNN decks (given that without equipment TNN is not very fast), or to have a big wall against angler and eldrazi and such.

Here's an article of BBD on the matter. Obviously all is referred to 4c control, but maybe we can get some ideas too.

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=14654&writer=Brian+Braun-Duin&articledate=5-24-2018

[Stryfo]

My issue with adding Tarmogoyf is that we don’t need it against stompy because it’s already a great matchup. If we bring it in against delver, we have to be extremely careful with our mana because our base is not as robust as that of Czech Pile, and playing that game is risky against delver. I think it’s conpletely reasonable to play a big dumb beater, but I think both tombstalker, which I’ve played on the past, and gurmag angler, which some Czech lists adopted in the past, are better solutions than Tarmogoyf for this deck. These options don’t clock combo as quickly, but I don’t think Tarmogoyf does enough against combo either.

My personal preference is not to play big dumb beaters, so I haven’t looked into them extensively, though I could definitely be convinced that they are good enough, we just need to find the right ones.

[ventouza6969]

Hi Stryfo,
i have seen all your record videos at your twitch account u have built a really beatifull deck.
Tell me what about of 2 preodain and 1 ponder main? Also whats your thoughts about liliana of the veil into this deck?

[Stryfo]

@Ventouza6969 I played with ponders and I played with preordains and in the early game I felt little difference. In the late game, situations arise where one is better than the other. My reasoning for running a split is: In the mid-late game sometimes your snapcasters will have a choice of preordain vs. ponder, and this is a slight upgrade over not having this choice.

As for liliana of the veil, I ran her for a long time and eventually decided I preferred Dack over her. In that meta I was more interested in having an instant speed edict, but if you don't believe you need instant speed edicts, you could easily swap to the slaughter for liliana. She has some nice synergy with pfire and getting multiple edicts is nice, but too many times I drew her and it was just not exciting to cast her.

[ESG]

I think both tombstalker, which I’ve played on the past, and gurmag angler, which some Czech lists adopted in the past, are better solutions than Tarmogoyf for this deck. These options don’t clock combo as quickly, but I don’t think Tarmogoyf does enough against combo either.

For what it's worth, when I play BUG Delver, I shave Tarmogoyfs against most combo decks for the same reason. It's not fast enough and doesn't provide some kind of disruption. For Punishing Thieves, I think Leovold is quite a bit better as another tool against combo. I also like Vendilion Clique.

[ventouza6969]

all we know that this deck has a lot of "one off cards", this is the big advantage of this deck but as much games as i see the fact that we have a lot of one of cards isnt always good. when we have the correct cards into the correct situations this deck is superior but the opposite is devastating. what do you think stryfo? Also at your last video i realised that you remove liliana for second thoughtseize whats your thoughts behind this? Moreover i think the to the slaughter is very very good but too slow dont u think because it stays into our hand more time than usual to take the full value and eventually it does nothing. do we need to change the casualties to golgary charm so we have and out to enchanment?

[Stryfo]

@ventouza6969

As far as the one ofs go, they are largely either bombs or have a wide usage (of course this is not ALWAYS true, but this is the dilemma of the control deck, and in large part why Dack Fayden is so powerful).

Liliana had an issue that I've been aware of for a while: the matchups where she is good are already good matchups, so I swapped her for a card that makes our worse matchups a bit betterm thoughtseize.

To the slaughter was not great mainboard, but I have found it reasonable as a sideboard card, and moved edict back to the main.

As far as switching the casualties for a charm, this is fine if you are playing a second fetchable green, but I don't think it's reliable enough with only the trop. If you want to play a different sweeper than casualties in the single trop build, you could try another copy of toxic deluge.

[quadich]

So what about spellseeker. I know the guy is janky as hell but it allows us to find many of our otherwise 1 or 2 of spells (decay, edict, pfire, rise/fall i think). Again i know its jank + but maybe its worth considering since i personally often lose to threats that require a specific card (TNN etc. )

[Stryfo]

I REALLY like that spellseeker can find pfire and other cool one ofs, but I don't like that it's a three drop, because we already play a ton of threes.

[quadich]

Yeah i assumed as much. Also the fact that its a 1/1 and thus doesnt really clock makes it too janky imo. If it was a 2/1 or 2/2 things would be a little different i think.

[ventouza6969]

Have you thought stryfo about bedlam reveler in this deck?
Also many of our loses are against wasteland deck do we need to test life from the loam on the board? Okey at first sight isnt good enought for us because of the lack of utility lands but loam plays very well with dack too.

[Stryfo]

I have thought about reveler, just haven’t pulled the trigger yet, I think that could be a very strong card for us. I don’t know what wasteland deck is a bad matchup for us, certainly we lose to wasteland now and again, but that’s legacy. I consider lands, delver, Maverick, and dnt to all be favorable (some more than others) matchups. I can’t think of a wasteland deck that’s bad for us, maybe eldrazi stompy? But the reason that matchup isn’t great is NOT because of wasteland.

[ventouza6969]

I dont mean that decks with wasteland are bad for us i just want to say if loam does some work for us onto these situations and its provide another loop for dack.
Eitherway, u have played enough games without liliana and i've noticed thoughtseize appears more often than before that gives us more flexibility, is that so?

[quadich]

Hi again,

I know i am asking a lot of question, but i was wondering about something peculiar. My local metagame has no combo decks outside of dredge and maybe 1 reanimator deck. How would you change the deck in a meta that 90% fair decks?

[Stryfo]

@ventouza: I see what you mean now, I'm not sure loam is worth a spot with no utility lands, HOWEVER, if you want to make the mana a bit shaky, or cut some sideboard cards or mainboard spells for wastelands, playing a value loam with one or two wastelands could be very powerful (especially with some intuitions for insane value piles), it's just not a path I'm personally interested in at the moment.

@quadich: That's an interesting question. The deck is already pretty geared to fight fair decks, but one could make a few changes to make the deck even better against fair decks. Really my only suggestion would be to switch a thoughtseize for whatever seems to be good against the most of those fair decks, potentially either three drop liliana or another baleful strix. You could also swap the forces in the main for some sideboard cards so that you are just insane on gas. Maybe move two forces to the board and bring in the second decay and the to the slaughter from the board? I don't like removing all of the forces, even in a fair meta because in game ones you are easily able to generate a massive advantage with punishing fire, and having a few vetos to your opponent's cards that don't care about pfire is pretty useful.

[ventouza6969]

Alpine moon just released a very cheep hate for our tought mu like 12post or lands. Any thoughts?

[Stryfo]

I think damping sphere is probably a better sideboard card if you are worried about post because it also splashes against storm. Further, our lands matchup isn't really that bad, so I'm not looking to find additional cards for it. That said, this card is really cool.

[Stryfo]

Regarding the earlier question about Bedlam Reveler. I just finished my first league with it, and went 5-0. I drew the card maybe 4 times, and once it was better than chandra, once it was worse, and twice they were comparable. I'm not sure which is better based on this small sample size, but for those of you who really wanted to play it and were waiting on a better opinion from me, the card is definitely playable in the deck. It was really sweet with Kommand and rise//fall.

[ventouza6969]

Stryfo u just removed the chandra for one reveler? do we have some video record for this 5-0?

[ventouza6969]

According to your 6 or 7 last strems Stryfo i made this sideboard table to simplify our life and our point of view!
If you like feel free to change anything you want to your list hehe!
here is the link:http://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mPg34mTUfeeT8DQ3GpmdUpgpRRbhsGL5RD2ZqBCzlPI/edit?usp=sharing

[Atreju]

According to your 6 or 7 last strems Stryfo i made this sideboard table to simplify our life and our point of view!
If you like feel free to change anything you want to your list hehe!
here is the link:http://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mPg34mTUfeeT8DQ3GpmdUpgpRRbhsGL5RD2ZqBCzlPI/edit?usp=sharing

Thanks for this, very interesting! Considering Sylvan Library comes in in all but one matchup so far, perhaps it's correct to move it to the main board? Going by straight numbers in order of the matches they're cut, Strix (10), Fatal Push (9), Thoughseize (7) seems like the best options to cut to make room.

But it looks like you missed Miracles?

[Stryfo]

@ventouza6969 That's a cool project you have! I fixed a few of the plans there but haven't finished yet, I'll get back to it later. Thank you for your effort! Also, as far as the reveler league, yes the swap was just Chandra for reveler, unfortunately I wasn't streaming the league, just playing games here and there.

@Atreju While it is true that Sylvan comes in for a ton of matchups, that doesn't mean it should go to the mainboard, the reason is because it is always coming in over different things depending on the matchup. Even though you frequently want the card, it's because there are a variety of awkward cards in the maindeck that have to be there for specific matchups. Cutting those awkward cards (like thoughtseize) make some of your matchups significantly worse (like combo).

[ventouza6969]

@Atreju I just added miracles in our sideplan based on Stryfo's stream.

@stryfo I really enjoy watching your unique playstyle into this deck, so this project is about to capture these choices. Many times i caught myself not to choose the same sideboard plan as you. The deck has so many 1offs which is difficult to understand why this card and why not this card. I think this datasheet gives us a clean view and a common path to follow.
-As far as the reveler i played a few matches, i have some thoughts. reveler dodge pierce and when its ready to resolve, it dodges daze too, it dodges deacy bolt and fatal push, its not very easy to cast it allthough and sometimes i had goodcards in my hand that i didnt want to cast it. In one game it happened to resolve rise on the reveler and a snapcaster from the grave, the game was out of control for my opponent that moment. But i think reveler it's not better than chandra because of rest in peace and leyline of the void which reveler is unable to be casted under these cards.

[Stryfo]

I'm currently trying to think of a build that allows me to play both Chandra and Reveler, at least for testing, because I love playing with Chandra and want to learn more about reveler.

[ventouza6969]

When it will be the next stream with chandra and reveler?

I'm currently trying to think of a build that allows me to play both Chandra and Reveler, at least for testing, because I love playing with Chandra and want to learn more about reveler.

[Stryfo]

I can't stream today, might be able to squeeze one in tomorrow evening.

[Atreju]

@Atreju While it is true that Sylvan comes in for a ton of matchups, that doesn't mean it should go to the mainboard, the reason is because it is always coming in over different things depending on the matchup. Even though you frequently want the card, it's because there are a variety of awkward cards in the maindeck that have to be there for specific matchups. Cutting those awkward cards (like thoughtseize) make some of your matchups significantly worse (like combo).

I get that utility cards such as fatal push or thoughtseize might change the dynamic of the deck as much. But the #1 card that is cut is baleful strix which is more of a filler/value card, not unlike sylvan.

If you start to keep track of how many times you face each of these decks while (maybe somebody else?) keep track track of your sideboard choices, it will be possible to determine what number of each card that is cut or brought in belongs in which pile :-P After all it doesn't make sense to compare the number of times a card is cut or brought in when manaless dredge and grixis delver each count as equal variables.

[Stryfo]

Regarding your first point, strix is crucial against delver, which you’ll note is one of the few matchups we don’t want sylvan. Strix is also very important in the lands and depths matchups, to give extra draws towards Lage removal.

[Atreju]

@Atreju I just added miracles in our sideplan based on Stryfo's stream.

@stryfo I really enjoy watching your unique playstyle into this deck, so this project is about to capture these choices. Many times i caught myself not to choose the same sideboard plan as you. The deck has so many 1offs which is difficult to understand why this card and why not this card. I think this datasheet gives us a clean view and a common path to follow.
-As far as the reveler i played a few matches, i have some thoughts. reveler dodge pierce and when its ready to resolve, it dodges daze too, it dodges deacy bolt and fatal push, its not very easy to cast it allthough and sometimes i had goodcards in my hand that i didnt want to cast it. In one game it happened to resolve rise on the reveler and a snapcaster from the grave, the game was out of control for my opponent that moment. But i think reveler it's not better than chandra because of rest in peace and leyline of the void which reveler is unable to be casted under these cards.

I just played omnitell and keeping Kcommand in is probably a mistake.

[ventouza6969]

probably yea its a bad card but depens on the timing u just drew it, if u draw kcommand at the midgame its a sweet instant speed discard on his opp draw. Also show n tell players sometimes play defence grid i have also seen grim lavamancer as a tech. Anyway we dont have better card in our sideboard!

[walked]

Where does dack go without DRS?

:cry:

[nimkee]

Where does dack go without DRS?

:cry:

During one of the leagues Stryfo had his folder open with about a half dozen Thieves variations. One of them just so happened to be labeled "Post DRS Ban Thieves" if I recall. I forgot what he actually put in it though.

Stryfo...so where do we go?

[Stryfo]

This is where I'll likely be starting from:

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1175690#paper


I want to stress that it's impossible to build a control deck into an unknown meta, and I fully expect to get smashed a few times before I get it right. However, I'll be tuning this to try to get it right until it works or is abundantly clear that the deck needed DRS.

Happy brewing.

[quadich]

So i obviously have not tested it,but how about accumulated knowledge. Great with dack fayden and also a great card by itself.
Also how do we deal with loam + wasteland now?:(

[Gregery]

I heard in Stryfo's stream that new Bolas is going to go over Keranos? Is Bolas going to be that good? Is it because of his planeswalker form is good or just the 4/4 for 4 plus discard?

[Stryfo]

It’s because you can’t stop me from at least trying Bolas, he’s way too sweet.

[Gregery]

It’s because you can’t stop me from at least trying Bolas, he’s way too sweet.

Respect.

[Atreju]

I see RUG delver is causing some problems. Maybe it's time for Meekstone? Since there aren't many abrupt decays any more.

Please don't drop black, I need some rise//fall in my stream watching life :-P

[Stryfo]

It’s hard to tell if RUG delver is a problem, some games feel very close, others feel very one-sided one way or another. I just haven’t played enough matches to tell what the average is. In all honesty, I prefer the black builds too, they are more fun for me to play, but I do want to try to figure out what’s the best version moving forward, so I’m going to try a lot of stuff.

[CovenantElite30]

It’s hard to tell if RUG delver is a problem, some games feel very close, others feel very one-sided one way or another. I just haven’t played enough matches to tell what the average is. In all honesty, I prefer the black builds too, they are more fun for me to play, but I do want to try to figure out what’s the best version moving forward, so I’m going to try a lot of stuff.

Hey man, fell asleep watching your stream last night. Did you end up casting Nicol Bolas? How was he when you casted him? Did you see this card staying in your deck?

[Stryfo]

I cast Bolas a few times, flipped it once, it’s possible that it should stay, but it’s unclear. A 4/4 flier is really nice.

[Atreju]

I cast Bolas a few times, flipped it once, it’s possible that it should stay, but it’s unclear. A 4/4 flier is really nice.
We do need another finisher but I don't think Bolas is the best choice because it's not so easy to get value with the discard. I think I want Kess, but I prefer both Bedlam Reveler and Keranos over Bolas.

[Stryfo]

For those still interested in a Grixis build, I think I've got something:


3 Dack Fayden
3 Punishing Fire
4 Brainstorm
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Polluted Delta
2 Volcanic Island
2 Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Swamp
4 Baleful Strix
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Thoughtseize
2 Fatal Push
2 Counterbalance
1 To the Slaughter
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
1 Tropical Island
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Ponder

2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
1 Hydroblast
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Spell Pierce
1 Notion Thief
1 Firespout
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
1 Counterbalance
1 Diabolic Edict


The Counterbalances are a compact, low cmc way of generating long term advantage in a variety of matchups, allowing for something akin to the life gain of DRS in the late game against lightning bolt decks and functioning as a hatebear-like spell against the combo decks. The addition allows for cutting discard slightly and increasing removal in the main. I wanted another sweeper and I've been very impressed with firespout so far (kills goose while leaving strix around) I think the sideboard could certainly use a little work, as you can tell by the ob nixilis being there, and it's possible that one more finisher should find it's way to the main, but honestly, when we get to the late game against most decks, pfire closes it or Dack ult does, so maybe another finisher is not required.

This is where I'm at for now and I'm pretty happy with how it plays so far, though I do need to get used to playing with counterbalance, since it adds another dimension to an already complex deck.

Let me know what you all think, have any of you been fiddling with the deck or is it just me after DRS got the axe?



P.S. RiP Rise//Fall =(

[walked]

For those still interested in a Grixis build, I think I've got something:


3 Dack Fayden
3 Punishing Fire
4 Brainstorm
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Polluted Delta
2 Volcanic Island
2 Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Swamp
4 Baleful Strix
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Thoughtseize
2 Fatal Push
2 Counterbalance
1 To the Slaughter
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
1 Tropical Island
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Ponder

2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
1 Hydroblast
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Spell Pierce
1 Notion Thief
1 Firespout
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
1 Counterbalance
1 Diabolic Edict


The Counterbalances are a compact, low cmc way of generating long term advantage in a variety of matchups, allowing for something akin to the life gain of DRS in the late game against lightning bolt decks and functioning as a hatebear-like spell against the combo decks. The addition allows for cutting discard slightly and increasing removal in the main. I wanted another sweeper and I've been very impressed with firespout so far (kills goose while leaving strix around) I think the sideboard could certainly use a little work, as you can tell by the ob nixilis being there, and it's possible that one more finisher should find it's way to the main, but honestly, when we get to the late game against most decks, pfire closes it or Dack ult does, so maybe another finisher is not required.

This is where I'm at for now and I'm pretty happy with how it plays so far, though I do need to get used to playing with counterbalance, since it adds another dimension to an already complex deck.

Let me know what you all think, have any of you been fiddling with the deck or is it just me after DRS got the axe?



P.S. RiP Rise//Fall =(

I'm skeptical of counterbalance but dont hate it. I'll sleeve this up and run it at my weekly tomorrow if I have time to get it together :)

[NedB37]

No new Nicol Bolas?? Or did you test and find it didn't quite work?

[Atreju]

I don't like firespout because it's not very good at killing Goyfs.

How about switching one of the decays for a second deed? It deals with back to basics and counterbalance as well as goyfs and geese. If Ob Nixilis is there mainly to draw cards, I suggest trying Painful Truths instead.

[Stryfo]

@ Atreju: Most of the time, goyf is not a problem with this build, there are many ways of killing goyf. I actually am not playing deed in this build at all, largely due to the popularity of stifle in the current meta. Ob Nixilis is, I think, a more powerful option than painful truths, it is a game winning bomb, where painful truths is not, that said, it's still in the placeholder stage right now.

@NedB37: The card is very fun to play with, but it just wasn't performing quite well enough for me, at least not in this build. There is likely another build of the deck where that card is better.

[NedB37]

@NedB37: The card is very fun to play with, but it just wasn't performing quite well enough for me, at least not in this build. There is likely another build of the deck where that card is better.

Agree. I'd like to try it, see if i can make it work.

Is the Trop in your main for Firespout? I assumed it was another source for Grudges but, you don't seem to be running any. If it wasn't for Firespout, would this be a basic Mountain?

[Stryfo]

I'm playing a pair of decays in the board, that's what the trop is for. I'm very hesitant to play a list that doesn't have clean answers to counterbalance. If I wasn't playing the trop I would play a basic mountain I think.

[NedB37]

Do you know, i didn't even see those! Makes sense. I'm going to sleeve it up ASAP (probably in a little over a week) and see how we go.

[Stryfo]

The more I play with this counterbalance list, the more I like it. It wins painfully slowly, but it does a pretty good job at stabilizing against a wide variety of decks. Once the meta settles down a bit more, we can get a more optimized build. But I'm liking where I'm at now.

New cards I'm trying are Azcanta and Tasigur, liking both well enough so far.

[kingtk3]

For those still interested in a Grixis build, I think I've got something:


3 Dack Fayden
3 Punishing Fire
4 Brainstorm
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Polluted Delta
2 Volcanic Island
2 Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Swamp
4 Baleful Strix
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Thoughtseize
2 Fatal Push
2 Counterbalance
1 To the Slaughter
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
1 Tropical Island
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Ponder

2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
1 Hydroblast
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Spell Pierce
1 Notion Thief
1 Firespout
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
1 Counterbalance
1 Diabolic Edict


The Counterbalances are a compact, low cmc way of generating long term advantage in a variety of matchups, allowing for something akin to the life gain of DRS in the late game against lightning bolt decks and functioning as a hatebear-like spell against the combo decks. The addition allows for cutting discard slightly and increasing removal in the main. I wanted another sweeper and I've been very impressed with firespout so far (kills goose while leaving strix around) I think the sideboard could certainly use a little work, as you can tell by the ob nixilis being there, and it's possible that one more finisher should find it's way to the main, but honestly, when we get to the late game against most decks, pfire closes it or Dack ult does, so maybe another finisher is not required.

This is where I'm at for now and I'm pretty happy with how it plays so far, though I do need to get used to playing with counterbalance, since it adds another dimension to an already complex deck.

Let me know what you all think, have any of you been fiddling with the deck or is it just me after DRS got the axe?



P.S. RiP Rise//Fall =(

It seems that counterbalance replaced Rise//fall: while I understand the points you make for CB (though I don't necessarily agree, because I'm not so positive about the flips), the same could be said about R//F (long term advantage, hatebear, obv not pseudo life gain against burn).

So my question is: why did you switch to CB? Are there any other downsides about R//F that I'm not aware of?

Thanks.

PS (a bit off-topic): I'm a long time player of grixis tezzerator, and I always wanted to jam some PFires to combo with the Dacks, but never found the right manabase to accomodate 3 groves. If anyone wants to help I'll be glad. I'm asking here because those decks shares a difficult manabase and maybe I could find some correlation.

[Stryfo]

Rise // Fall is not really a spell you can ever cast on two, the hymn mode is just too inconsistent on turn two, and it doesn’t stabilize the game most of the time. The Rise half also got a lot worse with the banning of DRS because now instead of 11 or 12 creatures, we play 7, so it’s much harder to set up. Having played a lot of combo myself, the best way to attack combo decks tend to be permanents, which is why I used to run revoker in my board, playing counterbalance is an extension of that philosophy.

[kingtk3]

Your reasoning about R//F seems legit, and I agree that for slower decks the best way to fight combo is with permanents and some permission backup.

Still, isn't anything better than CB? I don't like the randomness and the fact that some spells are hard to flip-counter (Natural Order, sneak attack).

[Stryfo]

counterbalance is random when you drop it, but as the game goes on, it is far from random, and frequently nets far more value than any two mana play should.

[ThiefSlayer]

I played the cb build yesterday. First game I played against miracles, blindflipped snap against explosives for 2. Couldn't be happier about my first game's opponent.

Second game I played against death And taxes, And though cb was deployed T2 And did nothing all game, it's one of the very few matches cb is bad and it's still a pretty good matchup. When you have 4 brainstorm, 4 ponder, 3 snap and 2 jaces It doesn't seem random at all. Loved this new take on the deck.

[Stryfo]

I just want to throw out there that even though I couldn't play the challenge this weekend, I was crushing leagues during the week. I think the build I have is pretty nuts, there aren't many matchups that feel truly bad (even burn is made much more palatable by cb) and I like a lot of the pieces right now. I might try to find room for a lili the last hope at some point, because I really enjoy playing with that card, but I'm not convinced it's necessary.

I think that in this current build mana management is extremely important, but it's certainly made easier by the costs I've incorporated into the deck (we aren't trying to cast hymn or anything like that). And it's even more important postboard if you need to bring in green cards. I imagine the mana could be made slightly better by cutting the green board splash, but you lose so much against blade and miracles by doing so that I don't think it's worth it.

[SJerusalem]

I saw you dropped the Search for Azcanta for a Firespout in the sideboard. What was your thought process behind that change, and did it work as predicted? Would that be the flex slot for the Liliana, The Last Hope?

[Stryfo]

That slot is pretty flex, yes, I like having the third sweeper for a lot of decks, and I like firespout in particular against RUG Delver, since it kills goose without losing life, and potentially without killing your own strixes. The Azcanta I really only found to be good in matchups that were very good already, and didn't improve upon them that much.

[kingtk3]

What about a copy of engineered explosives instead of firespout? It deals with goose as good, but it's also an answer to chalice and other pesky permanents up to 4 cc

Inviato dal mio HUAWEI MT7-L09 utilizzando Tapatalk

[Stryfo]

@kingtk3 That's actually a change I ended up making a while back, good thinking!

[SJerusalem]

@kingtk3 That's actually a change I ended up making a while back, good thinking!

I'll admit to not knowing all of the protocols to The Source, but it seems that the first post of this thread (or a subsequent post) is due to chronicle the post-ban version of the deck, it's new tools, and new sideboard strategies.

Your list is always being tweaked and upgraded, which is sweet :smile:, so I realize it's just a snapshot but a helpful find for others who may just now be finding the deck.

The Counterbalance has been the gassiest of gas for me :cool:

[kingtk3]

@kingtk3 That's actually a change I ended up making a while back, good thinking!

:)

BTW, I think that a copy of Pernicious deed should be played in the side, maybe instead of Ob Nixilis?

Against which decks you bring in the 4th Snapcaster from the side? Against combo to recast discard and put a clock?

[Stryfo]

@SJerusalem:
You're absolutely right, at the very least I will update the list on the front page, I don't know if I can give the greatest sideboarding advice on every matchup yet, but I'll work on that as well.

@kingtk3 Refer to the front page shortly =)

[Atreju]

Hi again Chase. Watching the gp coverage now I've realized I need an ensnaring bridge in my 75, I might even switch it for push mb.... (for my local meta anyway), have you tested it?

With DRS gone there really aren't that many targets for push. Which also means less targets for pfire and I find myself looting away push a lot when I wish it was a pfire. With abrupt decay also mostly gone it seems bridge is in a good spot although I must admit getting our hand down to size is a serious issue with our crazy card draw :-P

As you know, we have major issues with dark depths and eldrazi stompy.

You often mention how a card is win more than actually shoring up the bad matchups. You switched bolt for push when DRS disappeared (presumably because of the tarmo-threat?) so I am curious to how you think bridge stacks up.

And a big +1 to both of you guys for the engineered explosives idea :-D It's just so flexible (which is in fact the real theme of this deck) and can ironacilly never be a flex spot with the current ban list.

[Stryfo]

I think that these kinds of decks need at least one one drop removal spell, and with the uptick in Death's Shadow decks I think fatal push is even stronger now than when I switched to push initially, which as you correctly assumed, was for tarmogoyf. I think bridge is certainly a reasonable plan for sneak and depths, but I'm not sure yet how good it is against eldrazi, I'd need to play a few matches with bridge to feel it out. After watching Ark4n play with it a little, I was happy to try it, but I could never figure out what I wanted to cut, and I don't think push is the right call.

As non-intuitive as it may seem at first glance, it's possible that the thoughtseize in the sideboard could become the bridge, since it largely only comes in against combo decks, a large number of which are soft to bridge. I am not too worried about losing some equity in the storm matchups, since I think they are quite reasonable with the mainboard counterbalances.

I'll try this in a few leagues, but I'm interested to know what you would cut if it wasn't fatal push.

[Atreju]

I'll try this in a few leagues, but I'm interested to know what you would cut if it wasn't fatal push.

I agree about Thoughtseize. For my local meta, I think hydroblast or pernicious deed.

For deed, two boardwipes feels like enough most of the time, and the enchantment removal effect is a little awkward with three green enhantment removal cards in the sideboard anyway.

Bridge is better than hydroblast in the reanimator and sneak matchups and Burn is a lost cause anyway.

I think Bridge will work against eldrazi. Getting your hand size down to three should be enough most of the time and your removal and strixes should be able to deal with the remaining threats. It's not completely reliable but seems better than pretty much anything else in the deck.

It also works against prison MUD which is a very hard matchup. With bridge, I can save my counterspells for Ugin without having to fight through sundering titans and lodestone golems.

[walked]

Bumping this as I've been quite enjoying your most recent list.

Mana is still incredibly greedy though; paired with Back to Basics being a big player right now - leaves me concerned. That's really the biggest issue I've had with commonly played stuff right now, though.

[Stryfo]

@walked

I'm glad you're enjoying the deck.

Your concern is definitely real, I almost never lose to miracles unless it's on the back of B2B, and mainboard pyroblast only goes so far. However, I have still found the miracles matchup to be very favorable. The thing is, in most situations, their deck can be boiled down to like 3 cards that matter, B2B, Mentor/Entreat and (Maybe) Counterbalance. If those don't resolve they can't win the vast majority of games. And Dack ultimate pressures 2/3 of those cards, leaving only B2B as relevant if you can resolve a Dack. Between Counterspells and discard you can pretty easily put them very far behind.

I am going to try a new build when Assassin's trophy is released that goes a little heavier on green. I'll likely move to a 22nd land to play another fetchable green source (probably trop). In principle, this makes the mana slightly greedier, since we are going to be interested in resolving some green spells, but having additional answers to any problem permanent (even our worst problem, Eye of Ugin) might be worth it.

[Atreju]

Blood moon miracles is still the most popular around here due to popularity of depths, lands and eldrazi stompy. And against jeskai miracles we seem heavily favoured.

I really like this deck. 75/75 all blinged out.

https://scontent-amt2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/42551289_10156800875975406_4646371431280541696_o.jpg?_nc_cat=111&oh=0b3e347c1ea2005cf609915d91a11966&oe=5C16C71B

[walked]

@walked

I'm glad you're enjoying the deck.

Your concern is definitely real, I almost never lose to miracles unless it's on the back of B2B, and mainboard pyroblast only goes so far. However, I have still found the miracles matchup to be very favorable. The thing is, in most situations, their deck can be boiled down to like 3 cards that matter, B2B, Mentor/Entreat and (Maybe) Counterbalance. If those don't resolve they can't win the vast majority of games. And Dack ultimate pressures 2/3 of those cards, leaving only B2B as relevant if you can resolve a Dack. Between Counterspells and discard you can pretty easily put them very far behind.

I am going to try a new build when Assassin's trophy is released that goes a little heavier on green. I'll likely move to a 22nd land to play another fetchable green source (probably trop). In principle, this makes the mana slightly greedier, since we are going to be interested in resolving some green spells, but having additional answers to any problem permanent (even our worst problem, Eye of Ugin) might be worth it.

That makes sense. Are you going to bring Leovold back into the fold, even if just a 1-of?

Also - am I lucking out hard or is D&T just a bye? I feel like this matchup is so one-sided I must just be getting good draws (havent had a chance to play more than 4-5 matches now)

edit: I also feel like I really crave a second K-Command; is that just too much to try to cram in?

[Atreju]

That makes sense. Are you going to bring Leovold back into the fold, even if just a 1-of?

Also - am I lucking out hard or is D&T just a bye? I feel like this matchup is so one-sided I must just be getting good draws (havent had a chance to play more than 4-5 matches now)

edit: I also feel like I really crave a second K-Command; is that just too much to try to cram in?

Leovold was cut from the deck before DRS was banned so I'm guessing not. Yes D&T is probably the best matchup. I think there's not much we can do about burn but I'm still twisting my brain to try and figure out what to do against dark depths. I've actually considered blood moon lately because it seems to do much of the same as ensnaring bridge, but is not so soft to abrupt decay.

[Stryfo]

I've tried the second Kommand but wasn't super impressed by it. There is a huge glut at three and I didn't find it better than just another 1 or 2 drop (or land).

As far as Leo goes, I will not be playing him again, he was such a binary card, it seems you cast him on turn 2 or 3 and he's pretty good or you draw him later and he just does so little. Because of this he puts strain on early mana, which I didn't like. Trophy has the option of being cast early, but is really a much better play as you get further into the game, so the strain on the mana isn't so bad.

DnT is a bye, basically every card in our deck is good against them in some capacity, and while our manabase looks greedy, it is not so bad when you look at the spells we are actually trying to cast, and we have a lot of mana producing lands, so it's hard for them to mana deny us for any length of time.

[Stryfo]

I played the following list to a 3-3 (plus a bye) finish in the challenge today. I wasn't happy with the result exactly, but I was VERY happy with how the deck played. I lost to Eldrazi post, which is still a terrible matchup, and I lost to 4c Loam and Mono Red Stompy. against 4c loam I mulled to 5 twice and potentially misplayed, I still believe that matchup is slightly favorable. Against Mono Red Stompy I felt like everything had to fall my opponent's way twice for them to win, and it just did, unfortunately.

I beat Grixis Control, Elves, and a Bant TNN deck. All of the matchups felt very favorable. I haven't got to play a ton with this list yet (~15 matches), but it feels really strong, and assassin's trophy has slotted in very nicely, especially because it is really more of a midgame card that can be cast early if really necessary, rather than a true early game play, which allows your mana to be far less strained than some other cards that fit that slot.

http://www.streamdecker.com/deck/r1JhKiTYQ

[protasov]

Hey there.

I'm trying Stryfo's current list, but with some changes. (-1 Nihil Spellbomb, -1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest, +2 Gurmag Angler).

Lands (22)

1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

Instants (16)

2 Assassin's Trophy
4 Brainstorm
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Fatal Push
4 Force of Will
1 Kolaghan's Command
3 Punishing Fire

Sorceries (8)

1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge

Planeswalkers (5)

3 Dack Fayden
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Creatures (9)

4 Baleful Strix
2 Gurmag Angler
3 Snapcaster Mage

Is there any reason not to play Anglers?

+++
Add good clock vs combo and big eldrazi
Fat blocker vs small eldrazi
Our only chance to race Burn
Insane vs Delver-decks, they usually have 3-4 cards in 75 that can kill them

---
Enable useless removal cards of our opponents
Don't disrupt combo
Make Snapcaster slightly weaker

Maybe 2 Gurmag Angler should be 1 Gurmag Angler + 1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest.

Any thoughts?

[Stryfo]

I don't think that Gurmag clocking combo is a real thing for this deck, it's obviously good, but not so good that I would want to play it for that reason. I think that with the retooled mana base that It's a little silly to not run at least one Leo, and it's embarrassing that it took me so long to realize that.

Regarding your ideas:

Add good clock vs combo and big eldrazi -- I don't think that gurmag does enough here, it isn't really that fast and is completely outclassed by their mid-top end.
Fat blocker vs small eldrazi -- small eldrazi, outside of their nut draw, is already a pretty good matchup, but if there is a lot in your meta, I can see adding Gurmag.
Our only chance to race Burn -- I just don't think this is fast enough without something like mainboard hymns. and burn is rare. If you expect more burn, anglers might be good for you.
Insane vs Delver-decks, they usually have 3-4 cards in 75 that can kill them -- I'm not worried about delver, it's usually a pretty good matchup, but you're right.


---
Enable useless removal cards of our opponents -- we do play -some- creatures already, so I'm not sure I buy this argument, but most of our stuff doesn't care about removal in the same way gurmag does.
Don't disrupt combo -- very true
Make Snapcaster slightly weaker -- I think this can be played around, not such a huge deal.

The thing about angler is: it's obviously good, but it's good in matchups where we are already favored (not including burn), and the cuts we can make don't change those matchups significantly enough for me. However, I believe cutting Leo and spellbomb does significantly effect our less favorable game one matchups (combo).

As an aside: did you know you have a 12% chance of drawing a 1 of in your opener? I think that's a big deal when thinking about haymaker one ofs like spellbomb.

I'm glad you decided to pick up the deck and give it a try, in any configuration. After all, I play this deck in the configuration I do because I just love the way it plays.

Happy Thanksgiving

[Atreju]

I got second place in the top 8 of the yearly local legacy league yesterday

Creatures (8)
4 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
Planeswalkers (6)
3 Dack Fayden
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Spells (24)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize
3 Assassin's Trophy
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Punishing Fire
1 Kolaghan's Command
4 Force of Will
Artifacts (1)
1 Nihil Spellbomb
Lands (21)
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

Sideboard (15)
1 Island
1 Fatal Push
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Pyroblast
1 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Assassin's Trophy
1 Sylvan Library
1 To the Slaughter
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Notion Thief
1 Rise // Fall

Some thoughts on my changes compared to Stryfo's list:

Hydroblast is only really good against burn, which is close to unwinnable anyway and it doesn't do much to shore up the matchup. There's Sneak attack, but I have more edict effects for that. For the same reason, I switched inquisition to thoughtseize because there are many problem four drops that need to be dealt with such as sneak attack and TKS.

I went all the way up to four assasin's trophy as it's the most important card against colorless and marit lage decks which are otherwise problematic. I did the mistake of using one on a T2 sylvan Library vs Lands that cost me the tournament, as he continued to crop rotate for a fast marit lage.

I took out hymn for rise//fall because it's better vs fair decks (I like bouncing angler and getting back a strix) while still being serviceable vs combo.

I'm currently considering dropping Sylvan Library (we have so much card draw anyway it never feels like a bomb on turn two) for a fourth Dack Fayden in the side, because landing Dack on T3 is how we win most games against the problem matchups.

I moved an Island to the side after noticing Stryfo sided out a land vs anything that doesn't have land hate. Most land hate decks are reasonable matchups anyway so I figured I'd rather have another spell for game 1.

I went maindeck liliana of the veil and two edict because "swarm" decks such as Elves aren't that big any more. I find sacrifice effects are usually just as good as targeted removal (we pretty much always have to clear the board to win anyway), and again it shores up some holes vs the problem matchups.

[Stryfo]

Congratulations on your finish! well done!

How was the Rise//Fall with so few creatures? I am looking for an excuse to play with them again, I haven't been able to swing it since the ban though.

[Atreju]

Congratulations on your finish! well done!

How was the Rise//Fall with so few creatures? I am looking for an excuse to play with them again, I haven't been able to swing it since the ban though.

I never sided it in this tournament but I like it. It's best against gurmag angler decks but I didn't face any. Getting strix back has always been the best target anyway, I think it's correct to still play it but definitely not main deck.

It's not quite as good as hymn for discard but it's not far off either, and I like the mana cost better. Two black is hard to get to. Especially since I play three trophies, I find myself always trying to find as many colours as possible for the first turns.

[PotatoSol]

Hey, i'm looking to get back into legacy and this deck caught my interest. I used to plat esper deathblade, and havent played much since the drs ban.

I was wondering why you weren't running mox diamond though, it can help power out a turn 2 dack (not sure if this is good) and help mitigate the effects of blood moon / b2b

I also thought chalice or counterbalance could be good with that, being able to drop them turn 1. (Though chalice would make it so we cant run brainstorm/ponder which may not be what this deck wants)

[Stryfo]

I'm sure a build of this deck could exist that wants to play mox diamond, but as is, the deck just doesn't play enough lands to support it. As for chalice, I also see a world where this deck plays chalice and cuts ponders and one mana discard/removal (maybe keeping brainstorms) to play more lands, mox diamonds, some number of loam, and the chalice that you suggest. This is just not where the deck is right now, I'd encourage you to try it out before writing it off if you have the means.

As for counterbalance, I tested it extensively and found that it was fine, but it was worse than hymn if the mana was good enough to support hymn.

Best of luck with whichever build you choose, and welcome back to legacy.

[PotatoSol]

Ill play around with a few builds but i wont be able to get good testing in until feb probably. I just wanted to see if you had tried those cards yet (i saw cb was in earlier builds but got cut so ill probably skip testing that)

e: this is the very first list i'm going to test out.

// 60 Maindeck
// 10 Artifact
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Chrome Mox

// 7 Creature
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Notion Thief
4 Baleful Strix

// 10 Instant
3 Punishing Fire
4 Force of Will
3 Assassin's Trophy

// 23 Land
3 Wasteland
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Ghost Quarter

// 6 Planeswalker
3 Dack Fayden
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil

// 4 Sorcery
3 Life from the Loam
1 Collective Brutality


// 15 Sideboard
// 4 Artifact
SB: 2 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives

// 1 Creature
SB: 1 True-Name Nemesis

// 1 Enchantment
SB: 1 Zur's Weirding

// 4 Instant
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Assassin's Trophy

// 5 Sorcery
SB: 1 Hymn to Tourach
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Collective Brutality


Don't expect it to be very good tbh, lots of random stuff just jammed in, I'm just trying to feel what could have potential.

[PotatoSol]

Going to an event this weekend. Was wondering if you could look at this list:

// 60 Maindeck
// 1 Artifact

1 Nihil Spellbomb


// 8 Creature

4 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest


// 16 Instant

2 Assassin's Trophy
4 Brainstorm
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Fatal Push
4 Force of Will
1 Kolaghan's Command
3 Punishing Fire


// 22 Land

1 Badlands
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Bayou


// 5 Planeswalker

3 Dack Fayden
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


// 8 Sorcery

1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge


// 15 Sideboard

1 Notion Thief
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Pulse of Murasa
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 To the Slaughter
1 Assassin's Trophy
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Rise // Fall


=====

Some cards I didn't include are Pulse of Murasa, Engineered Explosives, and the SB Island.

Can you explain why you don't run Engineered Explosives over say Pernicious Deed?

Also, why do you like the Pulse of Murasa and the SB Island? Do you think some sort of life gain is necessary?

Ive also been considering some number of pithing needle - have you tested with those? What about other random hate cards - blood sun for example?

[Stryfo]

Hi PotatoSol, good luck in your event. To answer your questions:

Q: Can you explain why you don't run Engineered Explosives over say Pernicious Deed?

A: Pernicious deed is a much more powerful card, it hits EVERYTHING instead of just cards at one cmc. It's a bit more mana intensive in most cases, but it does so much more that I have found it to be worth it.

Q: Also, why do you like the Pulse of Murasa and the SB Island? Do you think some sort of life gain is necessary?

A: Pulse of Murasa is actually excellent on a number of axes. As you note, it gains life, which is how you close the game against any deck that features lightning bolt. It's easy to grind people out of cards, but you can't always keep force of will in your deck in grindy matchups, so sometimes they win with bolt off the top. Pulse eases that tension. Pulse also gains 20 life against depths decks and is a counter spell for infernal tutor out of ANT. It's far more versatile than it looks at first blush and I'd highly recommend trying it before writing it off.

I've been playing a sideboard island because when I played it mainboard I found myself boarding out a land in a large number of matchups, I'm not sure what is correct for a general meta, but I'd lean towards 22 lands main in a GP after trying both ways. If your meta has a heavy representation of Mono R prison, Delver, or mana denial decks, I'd just play 22 lands main.

Q: Ive also been considering some number of pithing needle - have you tested with those? What about other random hate cards - blood sun for example?

A: I don't play pithing needle because it is just too narrow. The only decks I want it against are depths decks and sneak and show, and it's just a little too low impact for both of those matchups. If you want a more wide range hate element I'd suggest phyrexian revoker, I've had a lot of experience with that card in the past. As for blood sun, I think it's just too low impact, and turning off fetchlands is a real downside.

[oOOoOphidian]

Pulse also gains 20 life against depths decks.

I don't understand this statement

[Stryfo]

I don't understand this statement

It's not literal, I just mean that it forces them to attack twice with marit lage.

[Amiodarone]

I have seen a ton of the BUGr versions of thieves on this thread. Have the RUG versions gone by the way side?

I have been very happy with bedlam reveler and a simpler mana base. Intuition package is always on point and helps in sb matches as well.

I have considered some number of Phoenix`s but that def seems just too cute imho.

Am I really missing out with all of The hand disruption.. just seems a bit clunky in the mid game.

Also impending disaster is phenomenal against all the UW miracles lists in my area with the standard 19 land manabases mostly basics.


1x Barbarian Ring
3x Bedlam Reveler
4x Brainstorm
3x Dack Fayden
2x Daze
1x Flusterstorm
4x Force of Will
1x Forest
2x Grim Lavamancer
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
2x Intuition
1x Island
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1x Life from the Loam
3x Lightning Bolt
3x Misty Rainforest
1x Mountain
2x Ponder
3x Punishing Fire
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Search for Azcanta
3x Snapcaster Mage
2x Spell Pierce
1x Tropical Island
1x True-Name Nemesis
3x Volcanic Island
2x Wasteland

Sideboard
2x Ancient Grudge
2x Blasphemous Act
2x Gilded Drake
3x Impending Disaster
1x Mindbreak Trap
2x Pyroblast
3x Surgical Extraction

I appreciate all of your time and feedback if you have any. Thank you.

[Stryfo]

I've played a RUG list before, my experience was that you need to be a faster deck than versions with black because you have serious problems dealing with TNN and Marit Lage. As such, when I played the RUG build I ran a playset of goyfs. I found that black's draw was far more than just discard, it gave answers to many problems that just don't exist outside of black and white. The discard is also very helpful against combo. I do like the wasteland loam package a lot, and I think that's the real draw to staying out of black.

[PotatoSol]

Played in a ~50 man tournament. It was a free tournament so it only paid to top 8, 6 rounds. I went 3-3, beating DnT, Infect, and Miracles and losing to Grixis Delver, Show and Tell, and Burn

Deck felt great against infect and DnT, and good against miracles. Back to Basics is scary from them but otherwise I feel that everything else can be easily answered.

Show and Tell match up felt bad but not unwinnable. Definitely misplayed by not leaving a strix back when my opp has a active sneak attack. He was hellbent and the attack gave me lethal next turn but I easily could have just played it safe.

Burn feels unwinnable. PoP is so good against the mana base, and the only life gain in the 75 is Pulse. Not too worried about the matchup tho since its such a niche matchup.

Grixis delver actually seems like a good matchup, definitely misplayed a bunch just need practice. TNN specifically seems problematic but I cant imagine adding any other cards to help that we dont already have (deluge, edicts, etc)

Deck was fun and pretty good, probably could have went 5-1 if i was more comfortable on it but this was my first time playing it paper. Ill edit my decklist in later if I remember but I ended up running 22 lands mb, pulse side, and 2 flusters instead of hymn. After my limited testing i still want to work on the show and tell matchup


// 60 Maindeck
// 1 Artifact
1 Nihil Spellbomb


// 8 Creature
4 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest


// 16 Instant
2 Assassin's Trophy
4 Brainstorm
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Fatal Push
4 Force of Will
1 Kolaghan's Command
3 Punishing Fire


// 22 Land
1 Badlands
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Bayou


// 5 Planeswalker
3 Dack Fayden
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


// 8 Sorcery
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge


// 15 Sideboard
1 Notion Thief
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Assassin's Trophy
1 Pulse of Murasa
2 Pyroblast
3 Surgical Extraction
1 To the Slaughter
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Flusterstorm
1 Rise // Fall

Changes from last time were in the sideboard, -1 Abrupt Decay, -2 Hymn to Tourach for +1 Surgical (3 total) and +2 Flusterstorms. I felt the hymns were too mana intensive and the decays werent necessary based on what I was seeing around the room (mostly creature decks or non-permanent based decks). Also knew a few storm players and other combo players in the room

After thinking it over a bit, I think the deck needs some faster way to close out games. The games I lost I actually usually stabalized in but was unable to close out games fast enough. I don't think Gurmag Angler is right, but I'm going to start with him atleast. I ideally want a token generator that isn't a creature itself so that our opponent's removal is less good. Maybe a planeswalker or enchantment. I'd even like lingering souls but going 5c for that seems loose.

Also, maybe Leovold just isn't the best in the matchups I personally played against, but I wasn't impressed by him. He doesn't combo well with Dack Fayden, and just overall feels low synergy with the deck. He's just a random good card thrown in that further increases our reliance on green. Highly considering just swapping him out to Notion Thief, for 1 main 1 side.

[Stryfo]

I'm glad you had fun at your tournament.

I'll agree that the burn matchup is basically unwinnable. If you are walking into a room full of burn and cloudpost the deck needs a serious overhaul, it's probably better to play something else.

Regarding Sneak and Show: the matchup will be much harder without discard, which is part of why hymn (rise//fall) is so important. I think not having additional discard to play against the combo decks is a mistake, because game ones are really tilted in their favor due to all of the dead cards we have.

I agree with you that hymn is very mana intensive, which is why I've switched back to Rise//Fall which does a good hymn impression in the combo matchups and has a lot of value in the Rise half against Delver, grindy strategies, and depths.

The main problem I hear people having with the deck is closing speed, but I simply haven't found the best answer to that question yet, I haven't been impressed by gurmag angler, and the curve is probably too clunky to add another expensive spell. I've tried Chandra, Torch of Defiance in the past, and it was amazing pre-DRS ban, but I haven't played with it much since.

Leovold is there in part because it gives extra game against a lot of the matchups that are hard in game one. It doesn't have the greatest synergy, but it is so strong against blue combo and punishing fire that I want to personally keep him around. He is also our fastest clock. Maybe this is the slot to look at changing to increase the clock if you don't like him.

I will also say that while I can recognize the deck's glacial pace, I haven't found myself needing a faster clock in matchups that aren't just terrible. What I mean by this is if it's not burn or post, the clock the deck presents is fast enough. This could just be from me having a ton of experience with the deck though. If you find that the deck get's much better when you add a couple of quick closers let me know so that I know what you're trying; I'm very interested.

[PotatoSol]

Going to be at scg balt. Going to test cutting 1 Baleful Strix, 1 Leovold, and 1 Fatal Push from the mainboard for probably 3 true-name nemesis. Tnn can wall most push targets or out race them, and punishing fire can deal with most of the utility creatures. Cutting 1 baleful might be wrong, but I don't know what else to try cutting.

Going to be doing side events saturday and the classic sunday most likely.

I might make some adjustments to the sideboard, thinking I might try and fit another rise // fall in if i can find another copy. I might also put another edict in the side, and i might try to fit a notion thief in the mainboard but i doubt ill find room

Maybe cut the inquisiton main for a rise // fall and the pulse side for a notion thief or edict effect? Will see after saturday

[Stryfo]

I found a convenient way to compile most of my data from playing this deck from some time in December. This picture contains the results of several hundred matches. I think that we can only get information from a few of the more played against decks, but it could provide some inspiration as far as where the deck needs more points and where it doesn't. I don't think the split is exact, specifically I don't think the different eldrazi characterizations were accurate, I don't think it correctly differentiates post and aggro so I wouldn't trust those numbers. Post is still nearly unwinnable and aggro is still a decent matchup. 4c control is likely a combination of actual 4c control and grixis control both are good matchups.

https://gyazo.com/e108cf489a6d2144f20def601aa36135

Hopefully this information helps you guys with tuning, I know I'm going to be messing around with some numbers now that I know more precisely where the weaker points are.

[aslidsiksoraksi]

I've been very interested in this deck lately, and I especially liked the card Cindervines that was recently printed.

I wanted to play a RUG version, and I agree that the idea would be to be faster since you can't really answer a resolved TNN or a Marit Lage. Here's a list:

3 lavamancer
3 tnn
3 snap
3 punishing fire
3 cindervines
4 bolt
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 force
2 jace
3 dack
1 forked bolt
1 spell pierce
1 spell snare
2 CounterBalance
3 grove
3 volc
2 trop
1 mountain
4 island
4 tarn
1 mire
2 strand

SB
3 pyroblast
3 vapor snag
3 surgical
2 pulse of murasa
2 flusterstorm
1 null rod
1 search for azcanta


The general idea was to be a little more aggressive, landing cindervines or tnn early to get a hard-to-interact-with kind of threat and then burn them out while controlling the board with lavamancer and pfire. Counterbalance, Jace, and the Dack + pfire engines give the deck some ability to grind out longer games as well. Overall a bit bigger and more resilient than delver but lighter and more aggressive than Miracles/Grixis Control. Looking at the matchup sheet you presented, the worst matchups were burn and canadian thresh, and then big eldrazi. I feel like having TNN and lavamancer would help in those contexts (though these are only a small meta share really). That said I'm probably giving up a lot against Depths and maybe other combo decks since there's no discard. On the other hand, vines should make the fair blue matchup, especially the more midrange/control versions, even better than before.

The sideboard was meant to hedge against Depths, and to give some tools against delver, as it feels like bigger blue decks should already be a good matchup. With the burn and my own TNNs I feel comfortable racing other TNNs, and vines is an answer to life-gaining equipment. MD Cindervines seems good against chalice decks as well.

Any thoughts? Is it important to get a loam engine in there? Does this seem like something with potential?

My apologies if this is not a good place to post the idea

[Stryfo]

When I played a RUG version of the deck I was particularly happy with the green two drops, I think I would want to play a scavenging ooze as well as some number of tarmogoyf in a list like this.

I also like cindervines a lot and tried it in the sideboard of the 4c version, but in the end was not impressed. That said, I think in a more aggressively tilted list it will shine a bit more.

If I was playing the RUG build of this deck I wouldn't play CB or CV in the main, but I think both are excellent sideboard cards. I'd take advantage of the improved access to green and probably try some number of BoP, because there are so many great 3s to ramp into. I think 3 grim is too many, so that's another spot to trim I think.

I do think this idea has merit, I eventually moved away from it because I really enjoy the black cards, but there is almost certainly a powerful RUG shell that just needs to be found.

of course, if you made changes like this, you'd probably need to retool your mana base from the one posted.

[aslidsiksoraksi]

Thanks for the advice! I am particularly keen to try maindeck Cindervines, but if it turns out to be a dud then ok. To my mind it forces the opponent to use their life as a resource, so from our side this only really works if we pressure their life, so we need an aggressive build. That part of the idea I'm sort of set on for now and want to give a real shot, though I agree that there are some intrinsic flaws with the idea.

I think you're probably right about cutting CB, maybe shaving a lavaman. You mention BoP for 3s - I was also excited to play Birds but upon reflection the only threes were TNN and Dack... both good to ramp into but still. Do you have any other threes in mind? I suppose t3 Jace isn't bad either. I could do an intuition package (add a Loam and maybe a wasteland and a barbarian ring).

I am a big Scooze fan, so will try to find room for one or two, they will also help with pressuring the opp life total. Probably try and play a basic forest and some number of misty rainforest to make the green work better.

Mostly just saying some thoughts - thank you for your input, it is quite helpful!

[Stryfo]

I think if you're playing 3-4 TNN and 3 Dack, you're good. However, you could also play something like young pyromancer as a pseudo-3 drop that doesn't actually glut your 3 slot.

[ReinhardtGao]

Hey guys. I'm looking forward to some suggestion for the manabase.

I currently own 3USea, 2Trop, 1Bayou, 1Volc, 1Badland. Honestly in the short period of time I couldn't buy in any dual lands. How would you build the lands based on my circumstance?

[Stryfo]

I think without 2 Volc + 1 badlands, you probably need to play 22 lands.

4 Delta
3 Tarn
1 Mire

3 Sea
2 Island
1 Volc
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Badlands
1 Trop
1 Bayou

3 Grove

That's where I'd start at least.

[ReinhardtGao]

I think without 2 Volc + 1 badlands, you probably need to play 22 lands.

4 Delta
3 Tarn
1 Mire

3 Sea
2 Island
1 Volc
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Badlands
1 Trop
1 Bayou

3 Grove

That's where I'd start at least.

Thanks for that! What do you think of using Misty Rainforest and Wooded Foothil in this deck?

[Stryfo]

Because I am not playing any basic forests, I am not super interested in playing misty and wooded foothills as my fetches.

[Stryfo]

Congratulations to Edgar on top 8ing GP Niagara falls with the deck!

I'm working on a video primer, it can be found here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRE2IDmIvgk&list=PLMUt9SKyAlpiopQICRTCdLem1I-2y_S_R

As well as on the first page. It is not yet finished, but I will be adding videos rapidly in the coming weeks.

[Unlif3]

Hello fellow artifact-stealers,
Long-time lurker, especially appreciated Stryfo's MU spreadsheet that was dope. Long-time Legacy player, I really wanted to get some meaningful experience with the deck before jamming in a few insights and asking a few questions. To get that experience, I played a very similar list to the Niagara Falls top8 one. Wall of text ahead.

- First, the deck is an absolute blast to play. Slow & grindy CA, recurring Fires, very few lopsided MUs, getting to play a lot of sexy cards (Notion Thief <3), fair and fun MtG. Great job pals for where you brought the deck.
- One of my main concerns is that quite often the deck turns out to be a cute version of Grixis Control, with a worse manabase that doesn't allow you to play HTT. Sure does playing green give us some interesting options (Decay, Deed, Leovold) but we're also giving up on some points in the process.
- I've been wondering lately if good ol' Liliana v1 didn't deserve to share the 3-drop PW slots with Dack. She is similar to the latter, the mana is slightly more awkward but sill can be cast off two basics + a biland, she does allow some CA with Punishing + Grove out (albeit slower than in the late-game), ticks up at the same rate for an ultimate that's a blowout against Control anyhow. The -2 is I think slightly more relevant as it gives us an additional Edict effect to fight those pesky TNN's/Anglers. The printing of the upgraded Edict in WAR makes me wonder if Lili took the upper hand in the 3CMC-PW duel. I'm considering a 2-1 split in favour of Liliana. It also occurred to me that Dack being blue was more often a liability (Pyroblast is a card) than a strength (pitching to Force).
- I've had trouble on the draw with proactive, utilitary T1 permanents, like Goblin Lackey, Mother of Runes and even Noble Hierarch/GSZ=0 for Dryad Arbor. The deck is playing PF as its main source of removal and doesn't have access to Push/Bolt, therefore the fastest you can deal with the latters is on your own T2, which is too little too late. So I often end up blowing up a Force on those. Feels bad.
- I want to find a room for a copy of Rise//Fall in the MD. The card not only is super-cool but also offers a lot of flexibility. I think it would replace Kolaghan's Command and the Fall part would be better if coupled to Liliana for a better hand attack. However Rise//Fall + 2 Liliana in lieu of Kolaghan + 2 Dack makes the MD weaker to artifacts and consistently weakens, for instance, the UW Blade MU I think.
- I'm considering a singleton Life from the Loam in the sideboard. The card is a super good answer to Wasteland strategies, whether it's Tempo or 4c Loam. Dredge 3 is good in the deck, however casting Loam involves fetching a nonbasic source of green which, in the face of Wasteland, is awkward. Have pals out there tried and dismissed it ?
- I have swiftly replaced the 2 Tarmogoyfs in the side for 2 Gurmag Anglers. The idea behind is that I want to jam them in in Combo and Tempo MUs. In tempo MUs it does dodge Daze and Snare while not forcing me to open a green source to Wasteland, in combo MUs it allows me to tap not two but only one mana while presenting a potent game-ending threat. Delve is a bit awkward but in combo MUs I want to cantrip agressively anyhow.
- Sulfuric Vortex gave me trouble out of URx Delver sideboards. Not only does it put a meaningful clock on you, it also shuts down the PF-Grove engine and your only out to this is Decay, forcing you to fetch green. Horrible.
- I have seen people play Pulse of Murasa in their sideboards, have not myself and never missed it. I don't even get why the card is played in the first place.
- I found Leovold to be underwhelming in the current metagame. I wouldn't cut it - it does really shine sometimes - but more often than not does it get immediately Plowed/Bolted/Pushed/Karakas'd, thus ending up being an overcosted Baleful Strix. Maybe do I play the card too early/proactively, but it does seem to me that as Leovold is the only meaningful target for removal (blowing a removal on Strix or Snap feels generally bad), he ends up eating those to the face.
- It happened to me several times, especially against red decks, to have the game "in control", being +6 or more in CA with Dack-Grove up, and ending up losing to topdecked bolts because I have no meaningful way to counter each of those (only MD permission is 4 Forces, doesn't get much better post-board). Also feels bad.

Waiting for feedback on those points, because I'm usually much better at playing what people have thoroughly tested than building myself. Anyhow, I may very well end up playing this very sexy pile of crap IRL, this feels way too good to be passed.

[Stryfo]

- First, the deck is an absolute blast to play. Slow & grindy CA, recurring Fires, very few lopsided MUs, getting to play a lot of sexy cards (Notion Thief <3), fair and fun MtG. Great job pals for where you brought the deck.


Thanks =)


- One of my main concerns is that quite often the deck turns out to be a cute version of Grixis Control, with a worse manabase that doesn't allow you to play HTT. Sure does playing green give us some interesting options (Decay, Deed, Leovold) but we're also giving up on some points in the process.

I'm not sure what points we're actually giving up, call me biased all you want but I think this deck is actually positioned significantly better than grixis control is at the moment.

- I've been wondering lately if good ol' Liliana v1 didn't deserve to share the 3-drop PW slots with Dack. She is similar to the latter, the mana is slightly more awkward but sill can be cast off two basics + a biland, she does allow some CA with Punishing + Grove out (albeit slower than in the late-game), ticks up at the same rate for an ultimate that's a blowout against Control anyhow. The -2 is I think slightly more relevant as it gives us an additional Edict effect to fight those pesky TNN's/Anglers. The printing of the upgraded Edict in WAR makes me wonder if Lili took the upper hand in the 3CMC-PW duel. I'm considering a 2-1 split in favour of Liliana. It also occurred to me that Dack being blue was more often a liability (Pyroblast is a card) than a strength (pitching to Force).

I am not sure which list you are running, but my recent lists have all had a liliana of the veil in them for precisely TNN and gurmag angler. As for Dack's blueness being a liability, it's technically true, but it's like calling Jace's blueness a liability, it doesn't really matter in deck construction because the card is just so insanely powerful. If you are considering cutting Dack I HIGHLY encourage you to play more with Dack, basically every time you untap with Dack you should be immensely favored to win the game, that just isn't the case with liliana.

- I've had trouble on the draw with proactive, utilitary T1 permanents, like Goblin Lackey, Mother of Runes and even Noble Hierarch/GSZ=0 for Dryad Arbor. The deck is playing PF as its main source of removal and doesn't have access to Push/Bolt, therefore the fastest you can deal with the latters is on your own T2, which is too little too late. So I often end up blowing up a Force on those. Feels bad.

I am not sure which list you're working from, but my list does play a single push. As for whether it's worth more than one slot, consider the meta share of utility one drop creatures, I'll estimate 30%, and I believe that to be very generous. Then we estimate the odds of those utility one drops being in the opener for these decks, which is about 45%, and we then bring into account the fact that they are only important 50% of the time (because they are on the play). Altogether this means an upper bound of about 7% of the time you will need a turn one removal spell If we further take into account the odds of not having a one of vs. a two of one drop removal spell in the opener + first draw, the chance of this scenario coming up (they play a one drop on turn one that you can't answer on turn one) from 7% (no answers) -> 6% (one answer) -> 5% (two answers). Beyond this, I'd argue that against non-elves decks, killing mana dorks with 1 drop removal isn't that important, which drops those percentages even further. Given this I haven't found the additional one drop removal spell to be worth it.

- I want to find a room for a copy of Rise//Fall in the MD. The card not only is super-cool but also offers a lot of flexibility. I think it would replace Kolaghan's Command and the Fall part would be better if coupled to Liliana for a better hand attack. However Rise//Fall + 2 Liliana in lieu of Kolaghan + 2 Dack makes the MD weaker to artifacts and consistently weakens, for instance, the UW Blade MU I think.

I tried Rise//Fall a few times in the main and haven't liked it in the current climate. It was amazing in the DRS era, but now it's just a little too awkward because Rise is just too weak on average now, where it used to be extremely powerful in DRS meta.

- I'm considering a singleton Life from the Loam in the sideboard. The card is a super good answer to Wasteland strategies, whether it's Tempo or 4c Loam. Dredge 3 is good in the deck, however casting Loam involves fetching a nonbasic source of green which, in the face of Wasteland, is awkward. Have pals out there tried and dismissed it ?

I've tried loam and haven't been impressed, I don't think it helps against tempo much because it's a too mana spell that gets countered by everything and forces you to fetch green. I don't think the deck needs more help with 4c loam, that matchup is fine.

- I have swiftly replaced the 2 Tarmogoyfs in the side for 2 Gurmag Anglers. The idea behind is that I want to jam them in in Combo and Tempo MUs. In tempo MUs it does dodge Daze and Snare while not forcing me to open a green source to Wasteland, in combo MUs it allows me to tap not two but only one mana while presenting a potent game-ending threat. Delve is a bit awkward but in combo MUs I want to cantrip agressively anyhow.

I don't currently play any big dumb beaters in my list and I haven't really run into any trouble against combo, Dack is a virtual clock that does a lot more to protect you than a creature does. The spot where I really like gurmag angler is against other gurmag angler decks.

- Sulfuric Vortex gave me trouble out of URx Delver sideboards. Not only does it put a meaningful clock on you, it also shuts down the PF-Grove engine and your only out to this is Decay, forcing you to fetch green. Horrible.

Yes, this card is annoying. Hydroblast does answer it though.

- I have seen people play Pulse of Murasa in their sideboards, have not myself and never missed it. I don't even get why the card is played in the first place.

I still think Pulse of Murasa is a great include. It rebuys whatever the most important land or creature in your graveyard is and gains 6 life. basically every time I've resolved this against Delver it has shut the door, since they frequently kill you just before stabilization, and this card helps with that. It also just lets you get out of bolt range in a ton of matchups, which is a big deal. I even bring it in against storm as a cancel effect for infernal tutor, since you can bounce a fetch to their hand and make their tutor really bad.

- I found Leovold to be underwhelming in the current metagame. I wouldn't cut it - it does really shine sometimes - but more often than not does it get immediately Plowed/Bolted/Pushed/Karakas'd, thus ending up being an overcosted Baleful Strix. Maybe do I play the card too early/proactively, but it does seem to me that as Leovold is the only meaningful target for removal (blowing a removal on Strix or Snap feels generally bad), he ends up eating those to the face.

This is true, but I find Leo to be an effective tool against combo and punishing fire that randomly hoses fair blue. I'm willing to use a single slot on Leo.

- It happened to me several times, especially against red decks, to have the game "in control", being +6 or more in CA with Dack-Grove up, and ending up losing to topdecked bolts because I have no meaningful way to counter each of those (only MD permission is 4 Forces, doesn't get much better post-board). Also feels bad.

Yes, this happens, the best thing to do is to play in such a way that you don't die to topdecked bolt. I frequently make my mana worse to stay at 4, throw away fetches with Dack, make awkward blocks, etc. When I know that's a possibility. Pulse of murasa in postboard games also gains up to 12 life, which makes it much harder for these sequences to occur.


Hope that clears up any confusion you have, best of luck playing the deck!

[PotatoSol]

been busy with school so I've been off the deck (off magic really) for a while, but the new set brought us the new Narset which makes me excited to play magic again. I was wondering if you were considering it as a replacement to leovold, also allowing us to drop green. This is a rough draft of a potential mb


// 60 Maindeck
// 10 Creature
3 Notion Thief
3 True-Name Nemesis
4 Snapcaster Mage

// 15 Instant
4 Force of Will
3 Punishing Fire
4 Brainstorm
4 Fatal Push

// 23 Land
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
2 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Geier Reach Sanitarium
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
1 Island

// 8 Planeswalker
3 Narset, Parter of Veils
3 Dack Fayden
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// 4 Sorcery
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Rise // Fall
1 Ponder




This lets us stay grixis, to fix our horrible mana base a bit, while giving us access to the main portions of our deck. This is a super rough draft that I haven't even tested yet, but I wanted to know your thoughts.

- Cephalid Coliseum and Geier Reach Sanitarium have been added. They can be insane with a narset or notion thief out, but they do weaken our manabase. I'm thinking I'm probably going to end up cutting geier entirely, and maybe leaving a single coliseum in, but I generally like to start with the greedier versions of decks so the 2/2 split for now. The lock with geier reach is also just fun.

- I want to find room for baleful strix

- Not sure if I have enough impactful instants/sorceries for snapcaster atm

- TNN is probably bad since it will be pretty much the only creature clock, and most wins will probably off the back of a Jace or establishing a lock in which case snaps or notion thief are fine


Again, this is super rough, but I really wanted to explore dropping green so that we can fix the mana base a bit

I also want to add Day's Undoing as a potential card to look at. With a Narset or Thief out, it pretty much always ends in a concession, and it can also hose graveyard strats if timed properly. I didn't include it yet since I'm afraid it might be too cute for legacy

[Stryfo]

First, the deck is essentially required to play 3 or 4 green sources no matter what, so I believe splashing green is so free and easy that it is a mistake not to do so.

Second, as for the list. It looks incredibly clunky to me. 9 threes (plus 4 snapcasters) 5 of which don't effect the board and 5 4s is really tough. And while on the surface the mana might look better, I'm not convinced it actually is, there are fewer cantrips and the mana distribution looks a little awkward to me, I'd never go below three non-grove red sources, for example. This version looks very powerful in blue mirrors, but that's already where this deck shines, and I think you're giving up a lot of points elsewhere.

As for Narset in general, I tried her out as a one of and wasn't really impressed, the primary reason being that she was winmore for this deck, since every matchup where she was good was already good.

If it plays out differently then by all means let me know, the deck looks sweet, just a touch inconsistent.

[whiskeyhughes]

Hey guys! I am looking to build this deck, and I was curious what list is everyone on with the release of Modern Horizons?

[Stryfo]

I don't really know if this is the list that "everyone" is on. But this is what I've been playing the last few weeks and it feels like a large chunk of the online meta is favorable, with the primary exception being RUG Delver.

https://app.cardboard.live/shared-deck/a51b8202-b441-11e8-9cde-12e7b5d8b110

[1ron]

I don't really know if this is the list that "everyone" is on. But this is what I've been playing the last few weeks and it feels like a large chunk of the online meta is favorable, with the primary exception being RUG Delver.

https://app.cardboard.live/shared-deck/a51b8202-b441-11e8-9cde-12e7b5d8b110

I'm having a hard time with this list in my local meta. There's a lot of moon decks unfortunately. I think I'm going to drop a Tropical Island and put in a basic Forest as well as change up the fetches a bit.

[nimkee]

Any tips on the RUG delver matchup in the World of Wrenn?

I saw your data on the matchup...how much of that 18% match winrate was before Wrenn happened?

[Stryfo]

Any data I have posted is very much pre wrenn. My recent lists with goyfs have performed much better against RUG delver, though it is still the worst delver matchup if they are playing traditional lists.

The newer RUG lists are not playing as much stifle or goose and many RUG players are jumping to 4c. Both of these new delver variants are much easier than traditional RUG. Assassin’s trophy is REALLY good in these matchups, they blow up everything, even lands, which can be huge.

[nimkee]

Thanks for the feedback, I appreciate it. I'm taking your recent list to Eternal Weekend in Japan this Saturday. I'm pulling an audible to thieves after having been on BUG delver for a few months, which felt decent against all the UR Delver I was seeing, and had a good combo matchup with the discard. Back in the DRS era Thieves was my favorite deck, and I did quite well with it in no small part to your streams. I've been watching a bunch of your vids recently, and listened to some of your comments on podcasts about the format trending towards decks landing one knock-out punch. Anyhow...yeah, thieves is a blast. Thanks for everything^^


Any data I have posted is very much pre wrenn. My recent lists with goyfs have performed much better against RUG delver, though it is still the worst delver matchup if they are playing traditional lists.

The newer RUG lists are not playing as much stifle or goose and many RUG players are jumping to 4c. Both of these new delver variants are much easier than traditional RUG. Assassin’s trophy is REALLY good in these matchups, they blow up everything, even lands, which can be huge.

[jubeininja69]

Any data I have posted is very much pre wrenn. My recent lists with goyfs have performed much better against RUG delver, though it is still the worst delver matchup if they are playing traditional lists.

The newer RUG lists are not playing as much stifle or goose and many RUG players are jumping to 4c. Both of these new delver variants are much easier than traditional RUG. Assassin’s trophy is REALLY good in these matchups, they blow up everything, even lands, which can be huge.

Hi stryfo,

I'm moving on to your goyf list but still need a 2nd trop. What would be a good temp replacement? Extra bayou, grove or taiga?

[Stryfo]

I think if you don't have a second trop that misty is probably the best option, followed by verdant. Slightly worse against wasteland, slightly better in vaccuum.

[streetMage]

This seems good with Dack Fayden's -2 ability...

http://mythicspoiler.com/ted/cards/wishclawtalismanp.jpg

[spym4n]

Hello guys!

Anyone playing the deck this season?

I'm playing a lot on Magic Online. Several mistakes and several losses, but I think it's normal since I don't have any experience.

Is this thread dead?

[spym4n]

One of the biggest complaints I read on this thread was that the deck did not have a quick way to close the matches after stabilizing. Now we have Uro... What do you think about the card?

[gato con botas]

brutal