Bob Depths

[Mr. Safety]

Based on recent success of 'Slow Depths', I am changing the scope of this thread to reflect the more common decklists and strategies. I will leave the original text at the bottom, if anyone is interested in seeing where I was coming from at the time (December 2017.) Since then several decklists have popped up with good finishes on both MTGO and in paper tournaments.

In a nutshell, the Slow Depths version looks to play a better long game than all-in on getting a Marit Lage token. As the Depths/Stage combo has become much more common, seeing play in R/G Lands as well as splashed in other decks like Maverick, the metagame has adapted and is prepared to face the dreaded 20/20. R/G lands has a combo finish and an incredible grind/control plan but tends to do poorly against specific combo decks like Show and Tell and Storm. Turbo Depths has great discard-based disruption and a super fast clock but struggles against some of the other top tier decks like Miracles and Death and Taxes. Slow Depths attempts to bridge the gap between the ultra-grindy R/G Lands and the uber-fast Turbo Depths: discard based disruption but also ways to accrue card advantage over time. Dark Confidant, especially with the low curve of a Depths strategy, fits in perfectly for that strategy. Deathrite Shaman allows for some mild acceleration, still allowing for a turn 2 token, but also isn't just a linear element of mana acceleration but also a threat in and of itself. Lastly, and likely the most valuable part, is that having more creatures available in the deck takes the threat of Diabolic Edict, as well as other sacrifice effects, and manages it better.

Some slow lists play maindeck Sylvan Library, some play it in the sideboard like Turbo Depths. Most Slow lists play maindeck Abrupt Decay, which is almost strictly a sideboard card in Turbo Depths. Many Slow lists also include a transformative strategy with Tarmogoyf and/or Bitterblossom in the sideboard to further bolster the bad matchups. I liken the strategy to Tarmo-Twin from a bygone Modern age where opponents had to play around the combo but ended up losing to fair beats because of it.

*****Decklists*****

Eternal Weekend 2018, Legacy Main Event, Vladamir Arneuve, FIRST PLACE, 5/5/2018

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=19135&d=320910&f=LE

MTGO Challenge, 5/28/2018, RedderTory FIRST PLACE, 5/28/2018

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=19356&d=323083&f=LE

Both events used the same 75, unless I missed something.

25 LANDS
2 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Dark Depths
2 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
2 Swamp
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills

14 CREATURES
3 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 Vampire Hexmage

17 INSTANTS and SORC.
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Crop Rotation
4 Duress
2 Sylvan Scrying
4 Thoughtseize

4 OTHER SPELLS
3 Pithing Needle
1 Sylvan Library


SIDEBOARD

1 Bitterblossom
1 Choke
1 Dread of Night
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Karakas
1 Krosan Grip
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Maze of Ith
2 Rite of Consumption
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge


SCG Team Open Baltimore, Jody Keith, THIRD PLACE, 4/29/2018

This is a slight variation where the transformative plan is emphasized more with Bitterblossom/Tarmogoyf in the sideboard, and going deeper into discard with Cabal Therapy out of the board. He is also trimming slightly on Safekeeper for the 4th Pithing Needle, but he also took a similar list to 10th place in Atlanta with the usual 3 Safekeeper/3 Needle (and a 3rd Bitterblossom in the board.) Link to that list: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=19089&d=320420&f=LE

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=19142&d=320987&f=LE

LANDS
2 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Dark Depths
2 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Sejiri Steppe
2 Swamp
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs

14 CREATURES
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 Vampire Hexmage

17 INSTANTS and SORC.
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Crop Rotation
4 Duress
2 Sylvan Scrying
4 Thoughtseize

4 OTHER SPELLS
4 Pithing Needle

SIDEBOARD
2 Bitterblossom
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Dread of Night
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Karakas
1 Krosan Grip
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Maze of Ith
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Tarmogoyf


{Below is my original post, take of it what you will.}

Good day to you all, I've been developing this deck for a little while as a result of trying to incorporate a miser's Dark Depths combo into a mid-range, black-green shell. I toyed around with a Nic-Fit shell for a little while, but that seemed to be much worse than doing traditional threats in that deck. What I gathered from reading the threads in that direction (Nic Fit/Maverick) was that Crop Rotation is a legitimate utility card, sometimes as a 1-2-of for utility lands and feeding Knight of the Reliquary. I also tried the combo in B/g Pox, and again, it was ok but not ideal. I had to be dedicated to the loam engine and 26-27 lands. I also couldn't feasibly run Dark Confidant with Smallpox/Pox being a focal point, and Bob has shown itself to be one of the best cards in my current list. The best performing version to-date plays a much better game with a ton of good stuff cards like Dark Confidant and Deathrite Shaman. It feels a lot like Splinter Twin in modern when that was legal: threaten the combo, but when people hold up interaction for that you can win with your other powerful cards. I'm even testing out 4x Tarmogoyf in the sideboard as a way to transition g2-3 after folks over-prepare for Crop Rotation. In my metagame there are several Chalice/Stompy variants as well, so hedging against Chalice@1 works well post-board. I also want to incorporate the Gitaxian Probe/Cabal Therapy synergy (why does Storm get to have all the fun?) Therapy is an excellent way to utilize extra copies of Dark Confidant.

One of the things that also really appeals to me is that Vampire Hexmage isn't just a one-trick-pony but rather a versatile utility creature that deals with a lot of threats in the legacy metagame. Jace, Chalice of the Void, and even Liliana are all still played quite a bit. First strike isn't insignificant either. While Dark Confidant, Vampire Hexmage, and Deathrite Shaman are fairly anemic threats on their own, the card advantage from Bob and the Dr are enough to get there when backed up with good disruption. I originally posted this in the Eva-Green thread, but it died off quickly during the Miracles Overlord era. With Counterbalance a seldom seen card now, it opens up more low-curve non-Vial options.

Here's the list I played yesterday at a weekly event, went 2-2 playing against mono-black Pox twice (weird, I know...), Dragon Stompy, and a homebrewed Eldrazi and Taxes Stompy variant (eldrazi with Thalia.) I beat Pox and Eldrazi Stompy, lost to Dragon Stompy and the other Pox deck. It felt like any other rock/good stuff deck where I was always in the game but lost to small edges or lock pieces. Dark Confidant was absolutely amazing, gave me a chance where I wouldn't otherwise have one.

Creatures - 12
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
4x Vampire Hexmage

Discard/Probe
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Thoughtseize
3x Gitaxian Probe
2x Hymn to Tourach

Removal/PW's
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Fatal Push
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Liliana of the Veil

Combo/Card Advantage
4x Crop Rotation
1x Life from the Loam
1x Sylvan Library

Lands
4x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Windswept Heath
1x Bayou
2x Blooming Marsh
3x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Dark Depths
1x Thespian's Stage
4x Urborg

Sideboard
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Choke
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Golgari Charm
2x Diabolic Edict
1x Karakas
1x Maze of Ith
1x Bojuka Bog


I wonder if a 2nd Library is better than the singleton Loam, which is really only there as a value card for Wasteland recursion or getting back Depths if dealt with. It feels really solid, but I can't help but think that I might be missing something. I think my removal is a bit narrow, Decay and Push overlapping quite a bit. Maybe a better creature removal that hits bigger things? I know Maze/Edict/Karaks do work out of the board but maybe my maindeck approach to removal is weak. Not sure, maybe its fine. I know I need more Bayous (working on it...) but for now Marsh has been surprisingly fine.

BTW, 'play turbo depths' is not a helpful comment, if you feel so inclined. Beyond that I hope to develop this deck further into a B/g value deck with the option of a quick combo.

[Lexi]

I feel like since you don't have any cards that complement gitaxian probe other than therapy it might be better to just run more targeted discard in that slot. For example duress or inquisition of kozilek. Another thing you could possible do is run delve cards to complement it in the main or sideboard.

I'm also thinking you may want to run more than 1 of each for dark depths and thespian stage. If say dark depths gets wastelanded then exiled by an opposing DR shaman your chance of winning looks very low. If it were me I think I'd try replacing some number of urborgs with them.

This might be crazy but since you said you want a value combo deck, you may want to consider adding more cards from other primarily black dark confidant decks, the first one that comes to mind for me is The Gate

I'd also consider trying some number of mix diamonds, what they'd replace I'm not sure.

[pettdan]

I'm not sure the deck really needs it, but.. With Confidant, Probe and Thoughtseize in the deck you may be close to being able to play Death's Shadow already. And a copy or two of Reanimate could be nice with that, getting back Confidant, Vampire Hexmage or Death's Shadow to overload removal, it also plays nicely with Death's Shadow. It's a nice strategy that doesn't rely on graveyard, I think I've read how Turbo Depths players sometimes have graveyard hate boarded in against them, so Death's Shadow over Goyf may have some merit. Or coupled with.

Edit: I love transformational sideboards; if you could play 4 Death's Shadow, 4 Dark Confidant, 4 Reanimate, 4 Pox or Smallpox post sideboard that would be a lot of fun (maybe more fun than good). T1 Deathrite, T2 Pox, T3 Thoughtseize and then Reanimate Death's Shadow. Or Smallpox, which is usually more easily playable. Boarding out 4 Crop Rotations probably since they are quite resource consuming.

[Mr. Safety]

Good thoughts guys, I'll chew on them for a while.

@Lexi: you have me convinced that Probe isn't worth playing. I'm not quite sure what to replace it with, but I want it to be low cost so as to avoid excessive damage from Bob. Maybe just more discard, like another Hymn. I think adding a land to the maindeck would be ok, like Dryad Arbor (to avoid Diabolic Edict after Marit Lage) or maindeck Maze of Ith. With 4x Therapy, 3x Thoughtseize, 2x Hymn, and 2x Liliana the discard suite is already very strong. Maybe Collective Brutality? I'll ponder on it, but you've convinced me of Gitaxian Probe being a place to cut. I was using it as a sideboard flex slot, essentially boarding them out every game after I knew what I was playing. Urborg at 4 I'm almost positive is correct, about 95% confidence. With 6 colorless lands in the main (maybe 7 if I mainboard Maze) I definitely need maximum chances of turning them into swamps. Urborg also allows for the (admittedly rare) turn 1 Urborg, turn 2 DD/Hexmage, turn 3 kill with a 20/20. More copies of Dark Depths would be beneficial, but I don't want to take up slots...I think hedging against losing Depths is fine with Loam, but committing too many slots to the combo doesn't let me play the grindy part of the deck as well. It's value first, combo as a fast win condition, and the combo pieces are useful even outside the combo. Rather than opponent's getting the 'gotcha!' feeling when they break up the combo, they still have to face Hexmage killing jaces, Bob drawing tons of cards, and Crop Rotation into utility lands.

I was having a little bit of trouble with Blood Moon, so maybe an Expedition Map x1-2 would be good. I drew plenty of lands, but I was hamstrung a couple times waiting for a basic land to show up. An argument for 2nd Forest.

I've also won a bunch of games with Dark Confidant/Hexmage beats. My chances of winning don't go down too badly with Depths in the graveyard.

Mox Diamond is out of my price range. I'm trying to trade into them but most folks aren't willing to trade them off. I agree it would be solid tech for the deck, especially if I go up to 24 lands.

@pettdan: I like the Death's Shadow idea, but I also have a ton of Chalice players in my metagame. I faced two in one weekly event, and there was only 9 players! Tarmogoyf at 2 mana was really the selling point for an alternative threat. I think if someone is boarding in graveyard hate for Depths, that's really going deep honestly. They don't even play loam to get back DD, although some are trying out Ramanup Excavator. Surgical Extraction is the real threat, and if they do that to DD then Tarmogoyf is free to beat down! I think having so many must-answer threats (bob, goyf, DD) that it becomes difficult to deal with them all. The funny thing is I don't have Shadows, but I do have goyfs! It was definitely on my mind that if my opponent sees loam g1 then they would board in grave hate, and that is counterproductive to the goyf board plan. I guess its another use for Cabal Therapy when its only a 0/1?

I'm not sure I need Loam at all, it's definitely a flex slot. I would love to use Eternal Witness in that slot, but double green is very tough to get. Maybe a 2nd Forest maindeck and playing Witness is the right avenue. With 4x Urborg a 2nd Forest is incredibly low risk, especially given how important green mana is even though I don't play many green cards.

Smallpox/Pox, well, I don't think with 12 maindeck creatures its the right approach. Unearth seems like fairly decent tech with that approach...everything is <2 mana. Maindeck Witness seems like it would support that as well. Unearth with Witness is pretty hot tech, honestly. As singletons I don't know how reliable they are, but it would be just another hedge against losing combo pieces. I would probably play a Witness, or another Library, before I went deep into the Reanimate/Pox route. Witness seems very good

Well guys, here is what I'm thinking I can do based on your feedback, please let me know if you think it's good or not!

-3 Gitaxian Probe
-1 Life from the Loam
+1 Forest
+1 Expedition Map
+1 Eternal Witness
+1 Sylvan Library

I don't think I need more discard, not with 11 maindeck sources already. I do like the idea of another tutor for the deck, even if it is slow, just because it can operate under Blood Moon and get basics.

I appreciate the feedback immensely! I'm going to a tournament in February, and I think this is the deck I'm bringing. I have a couple months to tune it closer to optimal.

[echoes]

hello!

With so many key créatures, isn't unearth a card to concider?

Grave dépendant but seems polyvalent as 1 off, good in the long game and pretty powerful with Eternal witness

[tescrin]

Good thoughts guys, I'll chew on them for a while.

@Lexi: you have me convinced that Probe isn't worth playing.

I would consider it sometimes in non-blue decks. If you run Delve creatures for instance Probe gets you there much quicker, combined with it's pro-therapy interaction things like that are enough to push it over the edge into usability again. When I was starting in legacy I ran it in Pox (and not many decks snuff their own hp like pox with 3 big pox) and I didn't have issues. DRS can cast it when you're desperate, and I definitely won a couple games where a Probe revealed 3x Blah and I munched the player.

[Mr. Safety]

I would consider it sometimes in non-blue decks. If you run Delve creatures for instance Probe gets you there much quicker, combined with it's pro-therapy interaction things like that are enough to push it over the edge into usability again. When I was starting in legacy I ran it in Pox (and not many decks snuff their own hp like pox with 3 big pox) and I didn't have issues. DRS can cast it when you're desperate, and I definitely won a couple games where a Probe revealed 3x Blah and I munched the player.

This was definitely why I started with Probe. I am not uber familiar with the legacy metagame, but I really like the power level of Therapy. Enter: Gitaxian Probe to let me utilize Therapy, give me perfect information, and simply give me more ways to dig deeper into my deck without splashing blue. You could probably convince me to keep Probe in, but I'm not denying that cutting it for Witness/Forest/random good card wouldn't also be good. Honestly, what I liked the most about Probe is that it was an easy cut for sideboarding. Again, my familiarity with legacy isn't great so I would need g1 to really get a feel for the matchup. Against some unfair matchups, I wouldn't hesitate a second to limit my value to one turn (activate DRS/get a draw off Bob) and then sac them to Therapy so I could hamstring my opponent.

[Mr. Safety]

hello!

With so many key créatures, isn't unearth a card to concider?

Grave dépendant but seems polyvalent as 1 off, good in the long game and pretty powerful with Eternal witness

I could see playing 1-2 of them, but with only 1x Witness (I definitely wouldn't play more than that) the chances of it becoming a card advantage loop/engine are really slim. Therapy sacking the witness then Unearthing it gives a lot of value, no doubt. I just don't think that's better than playing even another Sylvan Library to help me dig deeper.

Not dismissing it outright, I'll keep it on the back burner.

[Lexi]

If you're considering exposition map you may also want to consider sylvan scrying, same effect, sylvan can't be used unless you have green but it's cheaper overall and less likely to get hit by chalice of the void.

Something else interesting since you're mostly black you may want to run the black threshold land, that way you have a recursive answer to creatures

[Mr. Safety]

Cabal Pit is mediocre when I'm only playing 1 loam, and I might even be dropping that for Eternal Witness because its more flexible. CP is incredible in pox decks, especially Bg pox, because of the loam engine. I just don't feel the need to try and squeeze in another synergy. That's why I'm not playing Barren Moor as a cycle land either, it just doesn't work well unless I'm already committed to the loam engine. This deck already has a split personality, but one that can function. I don't think going that deep into Crop Rotation/Loam synergy is wise unless I play another 1-2 lands or another 1-2 loams. The sideboarded lands are specific to matchups where they are incredible on their own, making the lost tempo an easily justified trade-off.

I am definitely considering Sylvan Scrying, which as you point out has the better cost at 2 mana. With another basic Forest in the deck I think it's reasonable to cast, and it would also let me tutor without Crop Rotation, which is also at 1 mana (nerfed by Chalice@1). Solid suggestion.

[Mr. Safety]

Holy shit...just found these:

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=17827&d=310507&f=LE

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=16663&d=303058&f=LE

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=16406&d=301313&f=LE


They all play Dark Confidant, Deathrite Shaman, Liliana, and Abrupt Decay in some number. One even uses Probe/Therapy, which is super cool to see that someone else thought of that for this deck. Now for the discouraging part for me: they all played 4 copies of Dark Depths, which I think is likely because Bob will not cause much life loss with so many lands (28.) I don't have 4 copies of Dark Depths! I've been trying for a while, but don't have the $120 to spend and people don't like to trade them away.

I'm hoping I can make it work with a stronger value plan.

[alastair]

Played similar BG and Junk lists. Living Wish is pretty strong fetching all parts or utility creatures, and with utility creatures GSZ MD gives you options allowing you to cut things such as Pulse for creatures with ETB etc. I found Chalice builds to be best... but suck at remembering Chalice so don't tend to play them for long. With Chalice, 2cmc becomes more important and Mox Diamond helps the non-chalice hands an awful lot.

[Mr. Safety]

Thanks for the input, I've definitely thought about Living Wish. It's much slower, but much more flexible than Crop Rotation. I could see some very good options (Reclamation Sage, Fleshbag Marauder, Shriekmaw, others) along with having maindeck access to Karakas, Maze of Ith, and Bojuka Bog without having to mess up my mana base for them. In the long run, I'd rather just play an alternative fair/grinding game plan rather than play a slower version of Turbo Depths.

I think I'm committed to the 2nd Forest/Eternal Witness plan. I'll be cutting the Loam and a Probe for that. I think 2 probes will be fine, it's not a necessary synergy and I have other ways of seeing their hand (Thoughtseize) for Therapy. Just naming what I know will make me lose, and having even a small idea of what they are playing, I think are enough to make Therapy good enough for the deck. However...I think playing 4 Therapy is probably 1 too many, which leaves me with one open slot. Here is my short list in order:

1) Sylvan Scrying (additional Tutor)
2) 2nd Sylvan Library (Bob + Library is a very good engine)
3) Unearth (utility card, very good synergy with my low-cost creatures, good for grinding, late game engine with Eternal Witness)
4) 3rd Removal/Discard (Liliana, Hymn, Abrupt Decay, Fatal Push)

If anyone has more ideas, please chime in! I'm very happy with all of the feedback so far, I appreciate the community here at The Source big time.

[Lexi]

I have a handful of more ideas but they all would require a shift in how the deck was built a bit too drastically...

[Mr. Safety]

I have a handful of more ideas but they all would require a shift in how the deck was built a bit too drastically...

Throw them out there, I'm still in the testing phase. These are the core cards I'm committed to:

4x Dark Confident
4x Vampire Hexmage
4x Crop Rotation
1x Dark Depths
1x Thespian's Stage

Beyond that I know I need some amount of disruption in the form of discard and removal. The rest is up for grabs, so I welcome your thoughts.

EDIT: Liliana, the Last Hope? Seems pretty good, especially because her 2nd ability is actually quite useful for me getting back Hexmages, Deathrites, Bobs, and Witness (Goyf sideboard.)

[Lexi]

I'll edit this later why I think these might be useful though they each require a lot of changes to the deck.
Ancient strirings
Chalice of the void
Lake of the dead
Ad nausium
Grove of burn willows + that 2 mana recursive shock

[Mr. Safety]

Yes, those are all options I have thought about. I'll answer them line by line:

1) Ancient Stirrings - If I had 4x each of Depths/Stage, this would be very good, or at least powerful. I think with only singletons, Library/Tutors are better.
2) Chalice - I am committed to Deathrite Shaman, targeted discard, and Crop Rotation. No go.
3) Lake of the Dead - Pretty sweet mana ramp for sure, but what would I do with that extra 4 mana? Reanimator Depths uses it as a ritual that makes good use of extra lands, and they can win on the spot with BBBB with entomb/exhume, protected with discard like Collective Brutality. I don't think its worth going that deep. With Loam, maybe...but most of my stuff costs 2 or less, and I don't need to blast 4 mana to grind.
4) Ad Nauseam - this has me intrigued...but infernal tutor into AN wins on the spot in storm, I don't see that as viable unless I played Dark Ritual. Even turbo depths doesn't play Dark Ritual, they play Lotus Petal and Elvish Spirit Guide. Five is just too much.
5) Grove of the Burnwillows/Punishing Fire - I've thougth about splashing red, but I don't have the Groves, or the Taiga/Badlands to make a red splash work. I would love to sqeeze in 2x Bloodbraid Elf, Burning Wish, Punishing Fire...basically play Jund Depths. That's just a little too far out of reach for me. Good suggestion though!

I have tested Unearth and Eternal Witness this weekend, playing against Grixis Delver and Death & Taxes. It was good in both matchups, and I did live the dream of Witness/Unearth engine grinding out advantage, sacrificing to Cabal Therapy and then getting it back for B, then getting Unearth back. Unearth got back a Dark Confidant and Hexmage a couple times as well. Solid tech.

The more I play with Gitaxian Probe, I think I would be better served by using different cards. I think I have a decent enough familiarity of the format that I can justify Cabal Therapy without it. I'm dropping the remaining copies for Sylvan Scrying and another Sylvan Library.

[Mr. Safety]

New list:

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
4x Vampire Hexmage
1x Eternal Witness

3x Thoughtseize
3x Cabal Therapy
4x Crop Rotation
2x Fatal Push
1x Unearth
3x Hymn to Tourach
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Sylvan Library
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Liliana of the Veil

4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Windswept Heath
1x Bayou
2x Blooming Marsh
3x Swamp
2x Forest
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Wasteland
1x Dark Depths
1x Thespian's Stage

Sideboard
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Choke
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Diabolic Edict
1x Golgari Charm
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Karakas
1x Maze of Ith

[Mr. Safety]

Wow, witness is super clunky. Dropped. No real reason to use unearth anymore really, probably go back to loam. That gives me around 5 slots to play around with.

EDIT: I'm putting in the 2nd Library, 3rd Liliana, 1x Sylvan Scrying, 1x Forest, 3rd Hymn to Tourach. Gitaxian Probe = out, Eternal Witness/Loam = out. I could see playing the Loam, maybe in the board.

[Mr. Safety]

So I'm thinking the Wasteland plan is a questionable option. It's a good utility disruption in most matchups, but may not make enough difference in the matchups where I need to go long (Miracles, Czech Pile.) Where it doesn't provide black or green mana (sans Urborg) I was thinking of trimming it down to 3, maybe 2 copies. That opens up some room for additional disruption (mana is already solid) or possibly something to accelerate, like a Chrome Mox or multiple Lotus Petals. Petals don't change my curve for bob but allow for some faster turns. Mox would have to be only 1-2 copies at most, the cards are just too important. Without a strong loam focus and more lands I wouldn't want Mox Diamond, and I don't have them anyways.

On the other hand, drawing multiple Wastelands with Bob can be really solid at fighting fair decks. I like both options, so I might test them out. Turbo Depths plays Petals/Elvish Spirit Guides to accelerate their combo, I'm thinking Petals would allow for some faster starts on board. Turn 1 Confidant/Hymn/Library/Hexmage, or just doubling up on discard + Deathrite Shaman would be really great. Petal also allows me to play around Blood Moon very well, which has merit. The deck has such a low curve (average cost of a card is 1.65, even with 4 3-drops) that I wouldn't need a ton of lands anyways.

So this is my next quandary: do I play Lotus Petals for faster starts or do I go for Wasteland and rely on the grind plan? It's really a matter of speed I think vs having a broader approach.

Anyone have some thoughts on Petal vs. Wasteland?

Potential Lotus Petal list, maxing out on Hymn:

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
4x Vampire Hexmage

3x Thoughtseize
3x Cabal Therapy
2x Fatal Push
4x Crop Rotation
2x Abrupt Decay
4x Hymn to Tourach
2x Sylvan Library
1x Sylvan Scrying
2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Maelstrom Pulse

4x Lotus Petal

4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Windswept Heath
1x Bayou
2x Blooming Marsh
3x Swamp
2x Forest
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Dark Depths
1x Thespians' Stage


I like the idea of speeding the deck up, with both the combo AND grind plan. It seems good on the surface, but I'm not sure.

Would love some feedback, please!

[Lexi]

Can you name 10 cards or so that you don't like seeing your opponent playing?

Weigh both how often you face them and how badly it affects you.

[alastair]

Petal seams ill suited, it would require a further cut but +2 lands and 3 Mox Diamond gives you additional utility lands and reusable ramp. Add a Loam and those additional lands start to really work for you.

[Mr. Safety]

I would love to add Mox Diamonds, but I don't have access to them. I really like that plan though. If I can trade/buy into them I definitely will move in that direction.

Petal would actually go really well with Wasteland, but I don't think the tempo can be maintained. I just figured petal gets me faster lilianas, and I'm headed for an empty hand anyways. Petal lets me use Traverse the Ulvenwald, which fetches combo pieces nicely.

I think I'll cut to 3 wastelands, make some adjustments and work 2-3 petals in. Will update after testing.

Another option is to just play more mana dorks, like birds. Not the worst idea, but it has the same problem as petal, it's really only good early.

[Mr. Safety]

After playing with this deck for a while, I've decided Wasteland just doesn't belong in the deck. I could still play a 1-of to get with Crop Rotation, but that seems bad when I get to my second point: Pithing Needle needs to go in. I know that I'm trying to make a lean Turbo Depths deck that can go long, but Pithing Needle seems just really good. It keeps my curve low and lets me play my utility lands (urborg, stage, karakas, maze) without fear of losing tempo to the delver decks. Tarmogoyf sideboard looks a little silly if they bring in grave hate for PFire. I might need to play something different like Bloodbraid Elf or Scavenging Ooze to attack from a different angle when transforming off the Depths combo post-board

Now for the craziness: I've been testing a red splash for Grove/Fires, and it seems really good. It shores up the fair matchups really well in the maindeck by having recurring removal while allowing for some great sideboard cards like Pyroblast. This is what I'm tasting ATM:

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Vampire Hexmage
4x Dark Confidant

3x Thoughtseize
3x Cabal Therapy
3x Punishing Fire
4x Crop Rotation
2x Sylvan Library
2x Liliana of the Veil
2x Pithing Needle
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Life from the Loam
2x Kolaghan's Command
2x Fatal Push

4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Wooded Foothills
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Bayou
1x Blooming Marsh
1x Blood Crypt
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Ghost Quarter
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Dark Depths
1x Thespian's Stage

Sideboard
4x Tarmogoyf
1x Maze of Ith
1x Karakas
1x Bojuak Bog
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Choke
2x Pyroblast
1x Golgari Charm
1x Toxic Deluge


Mana-base is ok, not spectacular. I'm trying to splash red only for a few cards, not trying to cram in the color like Jund. This is kind of like Jund meshed with a stripped down RG lands deck. Testing has been good, it can definitely grind out games. I've tested against D&T and Grixis Delver so far. I may want Hymn to Tourach instead of Liliana, honestly. It lowers my curve slightly.

The other option I have (untested) is a white splash. I have the lands (Savannah, Scrubland), the spells that I would want would be Swords to Plowshares, Lingering Souls, Vindicate, Gaddock Teeg, Knight of the Reliquary (but that gets me too close to Maverick/agro loam without the Chalice or GSZ, which seems bad.) I like the red splash better, just for PFire and KCommand. They both provide card advantage and reach.

Hoping to get some feedback!

[Mr. Safety]

I played the straight Bg version with Witness/Unearth, and I went 2-1-1. Beat new miracles and burn. Drew against Grixis Delver, then lost to Grixis Delver. I think PFire and Kcommand would have done a lot of work in the delver matchups, but I'm also convinced that Wasteland isn't useless. I will likely still keep 2 in the deck, just making sure I keep the mana stable.

[Claymore]

A similar version made Top 8 of MKM Europe, but no Bobs.

http://series.magiccardmarket.eu/coverage-mkm-series-frankfurt-2018-legacy/

[Mr. Safety]

Cool list. I'm scratching my head at Cabal Coffers and Emrakul in the board. Does he really get that much mana? I see he's trying to have a long game plan. He's also doing Green Sun's Zenith and Excavator. Not bad tech, I just really like the confidant plan.

I'm not sold on PFire just yet, but still testing. I did find the Witness/Unearth combo very good, but weak to deathrite. So is Pfire, but my primary target for PFire is Drs anyways.

[filln]

Cool list. I'm scratching my head at Cabal Coffers and Emrakul in the board. Does he really get that much mana?

This is sideboard tech that I think DNSolver (?) explored during the heyday of Miracles as an uncounterable, difficult to interact wincon in drawn out games. Combine with Eye of Ugin, Emrakul can easily be searched out and "only" costs 13. If you have an Urborg out the Eye adds another mana and Cabal Coffers adds quite a bit, especially if you Stage the Coffers. This means you could cast Emrakul for as little as Eye of Ugin (3 mana) + Urborg (1 mana) + 3x other lands (3 mana) + 2x Cabal Coffers (10 mana net), giving you 17 mana with 7 lands... assuming I did the math right. :laugh:

[apple713]

When you add punishing fires to the deck you are then just playing a worse version of combo lands. I have a midrange version of this deck in my sig. it is posted in the primer. My list doesnt have bob but you could easily cut a few cards for him.

[Mr. Safety]

I hear you there, I can see that argument for a worse version of combo lands. I am however having a fun time playing this deck. Maybe its garbage, but I've really liked the KCommand and Pfires, and I've added lightning bolt to the main over Fatal Push, which has provided reach.

This is the list I've been testing. I gave up on Tarmogoyf when I added PFires, because grave hate will likely come in to deal with PFire...so where does that leave Goyf? Sad, that's where. If I go back to straight Bg, then I'll likely go with Tarmogoyf in the sideboard and the red slots turn into some mix of Hymn to Tourach/Maelstrom Pulse/Abrupt Decay/Fatal Push/Go for the Throat.

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Vampire Hexmage
4x Dark Confidant

3x Thoughtseize
3x Cabal Therapy
4x Crop Rotation
2x Lightning Bolt
2x Pithing Needle
2x Abrupt Decay
3x Punishing Fire
1x Sylvan Library
1x Terminate
2x Kolaghan's Command
2x Liliana of the Veil

4x Urborg
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Wooded Foothills
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Bayou
1x Blood Crypt
2x Blooming Marsh
1x Forest
1x Swamp
1x Mountain
3x Grove of the Burnwillows

sideboard
2x Surgical Extraction
3x Pyroblast
1x Duress
1x Golgari Charm
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Karakas
1x Diabolic Edict
1x Sylvan Library
1x Life from the Loam
1x Ghost Quarter

[Mr. Safety]

When you add punishing fires to the deck you are then just playing a worse version of combo lands. I have a midrange version of this deck in my sig. it is posted in the primer. My list doesnt have bob but you could easily cut a few cards for him.

I couldn't find the list. The link just takes me to the Turbo Depths thread.

Edit: is it your list in the primer? If so, I could sub in bobs for the chalices.

[Mr. Safety]

Still working on this, but I think I've found a list that works. The hardest part has been the mana base, I've been slowly massaging it to make it work.

4x DRS
4x Bob
4x Hexmage
3x Thoughtseize
3x Therapy
2x Bolt
4x Crop Rotation
2x Abrupt Decay
3x Punishing Fire
1x Terminate
2x Sylvan Library
2x Liliana of the Veil
2x Kolaghan's Command
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Wooded Foothills
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Bayou
1x Blooming Marsh
1x Blood Crypt
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
3x Urborg
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Mountain
2x Wasteland
1x Depths
1x Stage

Sideboard
2x Pyroblast
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Life from the Loam
1x Diabolic Edict
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Karakas
2x Bloodbraid Elf
2x Toxic Deluge
2x Hymn to Tourach

[apple713]

I couldn't find the list. The link just takes me to the Turbo Depths thread.

Edit: is it your list in the primer? If so, I could sub in bobs for the chalices.

Yes it is my list in the primer.

[Mr. Safety]

Thanks.

I played the red-splashed list last Friday, went 2-2 (one was a bye, lol.) I beat Chalice/Bomberman brew w/Dark Confidant and Monestery Mentor, lost to Enchantress (I know right?), lost to Sneak and Show. Sneak and Show seems particularly hard to beat without full sets of Depths/Stage. I really liked Bloodbraid Elf out of the board, going to maindeck it and move more towards a traditional Punishing Jund build with Crop Rotation/Hexmage instead of Tarmogoyf/other utility slots. Like any other BGx midrange deck I felt I had a good chance against most decks, but some never a great matchup. Good stuff has always had this problem. *shrug* Deck is a blast to play, for sure. I like that it provides a way for Jund to have a chance against combo (historically bad matchup, they board heavily for it.)

[Mr. Safety]

I'm going to go back to the GitProbe/Therapy plan, straight B/G, and just maximize hand disruption and cheap removal. I had better performance that way with Depths as an actual plan. The jund route is better done as...just jund, lol. Punishing Fire isn't really necessary as long as I have at least 3x Abrupt Decay in the main. The mana was better, it was more streamlined, and I'll pursue it from there.

[Warden]

I'm going to go back to the GitProbe/Therapy plan, straight B/G, and just maximize hand disruption and cheap removal. I had better performance that way with Depths as an actual plan. The jund route is better done as...just jund, lol. Punishing Fire isn't really necessary as long as I have at least 3x Abrupt Decay in the main. The mana was better, it was more streamlined, and I'll pursue it from there.

Before Eli won with turbo depths, he had several versions that crushed our local meta. Two of them had confidants in the 75. IIRC, none of them had 4 in the maindeck.

If I were to play bob-depths, I would build around 3 creatures: just DRS, Bob, and Hex. DRS and Confidant are “slower” than the turbo variant but give you consistency in exchange. Cards like Liliana, K command, pfires, and goyf are all fun but not ideal. If there is another shell to play with (ie; not BG), it’s in Junk colors for KotR (the Junk-depths deck of yesteryear). Green gives you land tutoring while black is for discard and the creature base. To round out the deck you need some proactive protection in the form of Waste, Ghost Q, Decay, and Needle. Steppe, Living Wish, or Bojuka Bog are also important. Ramunap/Loam/Safekeeper probably go in the 75 in some capacity. I like the list on the first page however, I’d try to push Gitaxian Probe + Therapy + Needle for synergy.

[Mr. Safety]

Good thoughts. I was getting distracted, lol. I definitely want to test this out more.

[Mr. Safety]

This is where I'm starting from now that I can dedicate some time to it.


4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
4x Vampire Hexmage
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Pithing Needle
3x Thoughtseize
4x Crop Rotation
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Sylvan Library
2x Hymn to Tourach
1x Maelstrom Pulse

4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Windswept Heath
1x Marsh Flats
1x Bayou
2x Blooming Marsh
3x Swamp
2x Forest
3x Urborg
1x Depths
1x Stage
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Sejiri Steppe
1x Maze of Ith

Sideboard
1x Karakas
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Life from the Loam
1x Sylvan Library
2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Go for the Throat
2x Diabolic Edict
2x Toxic Deluge
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Choke


Sideboard is in flux, I don't think I want Tarmogoyf anymore, but I do want Liliana OTV in the board for grindier matchups. Go for the Throat is for stuff like Gurmag Angler and anything out of Decay range. Maindeck Maze/Pulse might be enough for single threats like that but I don't know for sure until I test.

[hymnyou]

Cool thread, love bob. I've been playing depths since early 2014, I started down this path in the beginning phases based off dark times in vintage. Here's a list of mine from 2015, this deck was a tank. Obviously I would update in a lot of ways but foundation is there. I've been thinking of going back to something like this. Got 25th at legacy champs at ew in November with updated turbo list so may stick with that, but this has a strong grind if tweaked right. I would def be playing collective brutality in an updated list.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=87633

[Mr. Safety]

I have been doing well in test games, the flex spots being hymn and pulse. Not sure if there are better options. I definitely want a 2nd Depths, but other than that the deck is tight (in a good way.) Mana is perfect, I give up speed without petal/guide but I gain a lot more resiliency with drs/bob.

[Mr. Safety]

Tombstalker seems like a really cool option for an alternative win condition. I think the current creature suite can get there by itself, but having a haymaker that isn't Marit Lage isn't a bad idea. I was doing Tarmogoyfs in the sideboard for a little while, which worked really well in some matchups. Burn especially, which I see often, and Chalice Stompy decks that cut off my Crop Rotations. I could always just play a Tarmogoyf, which works with Unearch (which I want to try again.) EDIT: Flipping a Tombstalker with Bob seems really atrocious; I see there was a full 4 Libraries in that list, which really helps mitigate the risk. Maybe just good old Tarmogoyf. Maybe there is an alternative threat I can use, because I love the evasion that Tombstalker gave. EDIT #2: Phyrexian Obliterator seems good but hard to cast. Tarmogoyf is looking better and better. Old skool? Hypnotic Specter? EDIT#3: Thrun? Garruk Relentless?

Going to try these small tweaks and see where it takes me:

-1 Probe
-1 Therapy
-1 Sejiri Steppe

+1 Eternal Witness
+1 Unearth
+1 Chrome Mox

I think Liliana is better at grinding than Hymn, although curving discard from Thoughtseize into Hymn is in fact one of the better 'fair' lines this deck can do. I might still squeeze in a couple Hymns in the sideboard, mostly for the combo and control matchups like Storm and Miracles. The real open questions I am facing are how to approach Wasteland and Pithing Needle.

-Wasteland helps immensely with the grind plan, helping me to cut resources off the opponent when I'm playing 'fair' with Bob/Library/Liliana. One of the harder matchups is Czech pile (they attack from so many angles) and Wasteland can really mess with their mana, especially if I can ping off DRS with Abrupt Decay.
-Pithing Needle is another t1 play that synergizes with Probe in a big way, I've used it to cut off fetchlands on both play/draw. In a sense it is doing the same as Wasteland but also typically naming Wasteland in the matches where I see it. Ghost Quarter is a great utility removal, but I don't want multiples, it's basically a silver bullet for Karakas or sometimes Maze of Ith. I can't rely on it truly cutting off a color.
-Is Wasteland in the sideboard a viable option? Some games will just naturally go long, and I'm planning on having a good grind plan anyways. I don't know if the slots would be worth playing. I think it could replace Choke, but that's the only real spot for it. Everything else is too important.

Overall, I'm really happy with the deck as it has been playing out. I played on Magic Workstation (not the best testing ground, I know) and beat mono-black Pox, drew with Czech pile (he left during g3), and beat UR Delver (the agro version with Stormchaser Mage.) At least one of the games in all the matches went into a long grindy plan, a couple which I lost eventually because I couldn't utilize my draw engine (Bob against UR Delver at 3 life) or because Library bricked (Pox.) I think the Unearth plan would be very good at getting back Deathrites (which have overperformed in a big way in almost every matchup) Hexmages (killing PW's is cool) and Confidants (which die a lot.) Witness would get back removal, Crop Rotations that get countered, Depths if I need to do it again, and can combo with Unearth for a good engine. I know Loam could do the same, but this gives versatility and essentially does the same thing, if slower.

So, if you're going 'tl;dr', should I play Wastelands or just stick to Pithing Needles? My gut says Pithing Needle is just too important and Wasteland doesn't have a strong enough impact for my game plan, even the long grindy one. I know Turbo Depths has it figured out already, but I am deliberately going in a different direction with Bob/DRS instead of Lotus Petal/Elvish Spirit Guide.

EDIT#4: Now hear me out...Smuggler's Copter? I would splash in a Dryad Arbor in somehow. The looting seems quite good, and a 3/3 flyer is a decent clock in it's own right.

[Mr. Safety]

Newest list:

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
4x Vampire Hexmage
1x Eternal Witness

3x Gitaxian Probe
3x Cabal Therapy
3x Thoughtseize
3x Pithing Needle
3x Hymn to Tourach
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Sylvan Library
4x Crop Rotation
1x Unearth

4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Windswept Heath
1x Marsh Flats
1x Bayou
2x Blooming Marsh
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3x Swamp
2x Forest
2x Dark Depths
1x Thespian's Stage
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Maze of Ith


Sideboard is in flux. Locked in slots:

2x Surgical Extraction
2x Liliana of the Veil
2x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Toxic Deluge
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Karakas
2x Diabolic Edict

That leaves 3 open slots for Choke, Tarmogoyf, Krosan Grip, Go for the Throat, Life from the Loam, Engineered Explosives, Duress, Golgari Charm, or other cards that could be suggested.

[Mr. Safety]

I think I've finally gotten the 'gotta-fuck-around-more-with-this' out of my system. I spent some time yesterday during an unexpected day off from work, got my shit together, and worked out a decent list. Consistency has gone way up, and there is really only a few slots that aren't nailed down, but having a fluid 2-3 cards to mess around with seems good depending on how testing goes. I got a good chance at testing on Magic Workstation (even ran into another Sourcer!)

4x DRS
4x Hexmage
4x Bob
4x GitProbe
4x Therapy
2x Pithing Needle
3x Thoughtseize
1x Fatal Push (fluid slot)
4x Crop Rotation
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Sylvan Library
1x Sylvan Scrying (fluid slot)
2x Liliana of the Veil
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Windswept Heath
1x Marsh Flats
1x Bayou
2x Blooming Marsh
2x Swamp
2x Forest
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3x Wasteland
1x Thespian's Stage
2x Dark Depths

Sideboard
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Toxic Deluge
2x Diabolic Edict
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Hymn to Tourach (fluid slot)
1x Life from the Loam (fluid slot)
1x Sylvan Library (fluid slot)
1x Maze of Ith
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Karakas
1x Glacial Chasm

I waffle on the 2nd Library, which in some matchups is my best card and others is just abysmally too slow to count on. In the end I wanted a 4th spot removal with Fatal Push to go with the Abrupt Decays. Liliana is better at establishing inevitability, which is why I opted for her main over the sideboarded Hymns. The Hymns come in against opposing combo decks that are faster. Needle was so good with Probe that I left in 2 copies, even though I'm playing with my own Wastelands. If I can play around it by Waste-ing first, then playing Needle, fine. If not I just accept that protecting my lands is more important than killing others. Needle will name Karakas most of the time anyways, or just messing with in-hand fetches.

Pretty excited to be testing this out, it feels good.

EDIT: I've been cruising the Depths thread, so I picked up a couple copies of Rite of Consumption, might even squeeze one in maindeck. Also want to try Smuggler's Copter x1.

[Mr. Safety]

Played in a local FNM, went 2-2 beating Chalice Bomberman and ANT, losing to Br Reanimator and Esper Mentor. I definitely learned quite a bit about how to adjust the deck. Here was my list, below I'll post changes that I will be making.

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
4x Vampire Hexmage

3x Gitaxian Probe
3x Cabal Therapy
3x Thoughtseize
2x Fatal Push
4x Crop Rotation
1x Rancor
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Hymn to Tourach
1x Sylvan Scrying
1x Sylvan Library
2x Liliana of the Veil

4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Marsh Flats
1x Windswept Heath
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Bayou
2x Blooming Marsh
2x Forest
2x Swamp
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3x Wasteland
2x Dark Depths
1x Thespian's Stage

Sideboard
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Diabolic Edict
2x Toxic Deluge
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Pithing Needle
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Karakas
1x Maze of Ith
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Life from the Loam
1x Sylvan Library


So Liliana maindeck isn't fantastic, but I want her for the grindy matches. Swapping her straight away for Pithing Needle maindeck. I somehow forgot to include a Sejiri Steppe in my list (doh!) so -1 Wasteland, +1 Steppe in the maindeck. There is tension from the Wasteland + Needle (sometimes naming Wasteland) but I don't think it's enough to stop it from working. Sideboard I am going -1 Life from the Loam, -1 Maze of Ith, +2 Rite of Consumption, and adding Liliana there. The rites would definitely have helped me win at least 2 games against Esper Mentor, as would have Sejiri Steppe to get past Baleful Strix. Also going -1 Rancor (even though it has great uses) and +1 Smugglers Copter. Not sure on Dryad Arbor just yet...

Br reanimator is a challenging deck to face. I lost g1 to Iona, with no active Deathrite Shaman (he pulled it off t1.) I eeked out g2 somehow, I think it was after I Thoughtseized and Therapy-ed his Reanimates. I had Needles, followed up with Surgical Extraction g3 and he still got there with Grave Titan. I mulligan-ed hard, but it didn't pan out.

Overall, I'm very happy with the deck. A few minor tweaks and I think it will be close to where I want it.

[Mr. Safety]

Another Shaman/Confidant build did well recently, taking 5th. Some noticeable differences, biggest one is always 4x each Depths/Stage, where I'm at most 2/2. I also don't have the 2nd/3rd Bayou to really get my mana base nailed down. I like the Dread of Nights in the board for D&T, has splash damage against Maverick. Pretty cool to see something similar do well; it validates that this isn't such a terrible idea.

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18840&d=317909&f=LE

[Mr. Safety]

Got a lot of great insight from the Turbo Depths thread, especially in regards to Probe/Therapy.

I'm still grinding away with this mid-range concoction w/depths combo. I'm going back to playing Wasteland myself, because I remembered that Wasteland kills opposing Wastelands/Karakas, and it can grind a fair plan better than Ghost Quarter. Accordingly, I have dropped the Pithing Needles. If I'm not naming Wasteland so I can play it, or Deathrite Shaman (another popular target) because I'm playing it...the reasons for using it are getting lower. So instead I am working in a full set of Lotus Petal, 3x Duress, and dropping Probe/Therapy completely. With such an emphasis on Confidant/Library, and the sideboarded Bitterblossoms, lifeloss is starting to stack up too much. Without Needle, Probe gets worse as well. I think the free, fast mana will be much more valuable than the free peek/draw. I absolutely love the idea of a t1 Confidant/Library, too. It will also make the deck probably 1/2 a turn faster (and it was about a full turn slower than traditional Turbo Depths already.) Liliana is back in as another way to grind out games.

New list, excited to try it:

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
4x Vampire Hexmage

3x Thoughtseize
3x Duress
4x Crop Rotation
1x Fatal Push
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Sylvan Library
2x Hymn to Tourach
2x Liliana of the Veil
4x Lotus Petal

4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Marsh Flats
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Windswept Heath
1x Bayou
2x Blooming Marsh
2x Swamp
2x Forest
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3x Wasteland
2x Dark Depths
1x Thespian's Stage
1x Sejiri Steppe

Sideboard
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Bitterblossom
2x Toxic Deluge
2x Diabolic Edict
2x Rite of Consumption
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Karakas
1x Maze of Ith


Definitely considering Tarmogoyf again as a transformative sideboard option...because of Rite of Consumption. I could drop Bitterblossom, Glacial Chasm, and maybe an Edict for 4x Tarmogoyf.

For now, I'm looking forward to more degenerate starts with Lotus Petal. Deathrite Shaman isn't really that much slower than Elvish Spirit Guide, and he has a lot more going on for him.

[ShadWills]

I have been messing with a lot of these cards for a while now. It seems like our minds may work similarly. I also started on the Nic-Fit thread and moved through Pox as well. I really liked Nic-Fit but wanted a combo finish and Depths combo was really slow in that deck. I also really wanted to play Cabal Therapy with Probe. My biggest problem there was that it takes up too much space. I only play casual because I'm timid to bring a deck with no true duals or fetches to a tournament. But my list seems very strong in my playgroup. I only own one Bob now but I have some experimental lists where he looks real good.

Actually I arrived at this deck because I really wanted to break a particular card.

Mirri's Guile

Ironically I don't own any copies yet but in my experimental lists it is an all-star. I think I would try and run four Mirri's Guile and three Sylvan Library. These two cards play so well with Bob and Crop rotation. And When you're in a close game it is so nice to have the edge these cards provide. Also I have liked some equipment. I currently run a Jitte and a Loxodon Warhammer and the Warhammer has been great. The deck has a tight curve and some acceleration so a singleton of something like Warhammer has been quite castable for me. Also I find myself wanting sweepers sometimes, but is a bit of a nonbo with Bob. If my contributions sound engaging I will post my current list.

[Mr. Safety]

I took this to FNM last night and went 0-3, with a bunch of feel bads. I stole a few games, and all my matches went to 3 games, but I'm fairly well done with the idea for now. I'm actually going to move into junk nic-fit.

Feel free to post a list though, I'd gladly be a sounding board for you. I think Mirri's Guile is worse than library, because the most common way to deal with the token is swords to plowshares, which lets you aggressively draw extra cards. Guile is great, but 7 copies of that type of effect is way too many. Regarding probe/therapy, I've been convinced that Duress is just better, and the life loss from probe was significant.

[NegatorITA]

looks like a list who took ispiration from this topic won the EW in Europe?
https://www.magicbazar.fr/article/52-eternal_weekend_2018

[walked]

looks like a list who took ispiration from this topic won the EW in Europe?
https://www.magicbazar.fr/article/52-eternal_weekend_2018

http://www.starcitygames.com/decks/120602
Jody Keith as well this past weekend

[Mr. Safety]

http://www.starcitygames.com/decks/120602
Jody Keith as well this past weekend

He was even doing the Bitterblossom/Tarmogoyf sideboard tech. Very cool.

I've been thinking that Dread of Night needs to be in the sideboards...Death & Taxes has to be the worst matchup for just about any depths variant.

[TLK]

Do you sideboard into BB/Goyf every match or just the ones where you're worried about Wasteland?

[Baum]

looks like a list who took ispiration from this topic won the EW in Europe?
https://www.magicbazar.fr/article/52-eternal_weekend_2018

The same guy also made Top8 at GP Madrid earlier this year: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18737&d=317153&f=LE

[Mr. Safety]

Do you sideboard into BB/Goyf every match or just the ones where you're worried about Wasteland?

Pithing Needle is always a 3-4-of in the maindeck to deal with Wasteland. Another way to get around it is to always play Depths last, pop it with Hexmage even if they have Wasteland by doing it in response. Double Wasteland is tough, but again, Needles. Bitterblossom I think is mostly for the miracles and D&T matchups (that's why I was playing it) because getting a Depths through Terminus is such a slog and the recurring tokens are really good against Flickerwisps etc, buying time to deal with Karakas/Wasteland. Tarmogoyf is a way to apply pressure while threatening the combo, mostly good against decks like Death & Taxes (horrible matchup) and making the battlefield clogged up against anemic smaller threats. Goyf typically beats for 5 a turn, which is a pretty fast clock in itself. It turns it into a rock-like deck with discard, decays, bobs, and goyfs. Sometimes that gets you there.

I sideboarded Tarmogoyf in my local for Burn (another fast threat they can't deal with), Grixis Delver (higher threat count is good), and Pox (who have a ton of sac effects to deal with Marit Lage.)

[lavafrogg]

So “Slow” Depths is a very real thing right now. I just 4-0’d a weekly with it.

Bobs were straight gas and thedexk was a ton of fun to play.

2-0 DnT
2-0 Elves
2-0 Pox
2-1 Turbo Depths

Is this the right thread for DRS/Bob Depths or is that in the Turbo thread?

[Mr. Safety]

There is a lot of discussion on the Turbo Depths thread. This thread started as an experiment, then it morphed into a Slow Depths thread. At the time I started the thread there were others that were tinkering with a DRS/Confidant build, I tried some crazy shit, but now the current Slow Depths deck is really close to an established version of Depths combo (alongside Turbo Depths and R/G Lands.) I certainly didn't come up with the idea first, I was just piggy-backing on some fringe lists.

[lavafrogg]

There is a lot of discussion on the Turbo Depths thread. This thread started as an experiment, then it morphed into a Slow Depths thread. At the time I started the thread there were others that were tinkering with a DRS/Confidant build, I tried some crazy shit, but now the current Slow Depths deck is really close to an established version of Depths combo (alongside Turbo Depths and R/G Lands.) I certainly didn't come up with the idea first, I was just piggy-backing on some fringe lists.

Ugh.... I can only see the discussion going nowhere in the “Turbo” thread. I’ll give it a shot, I read through the forum and have seen whet has been posted about the slow lists, there just isn’t much.

[apple713]

Ugh.... I can only see the discussion going nowhere in the “Turbo” thread. I’ll give it a shot, I read through the forum and have seen whet has been posted about the slow lists, there just isn’t much.

I'm not sure exactly when the title changed from dark depths to turbo depths but I've covered most of the lists in the primer. Last time I checked they were discussing dark confident. Dark confident was never a bad choice but it certainly wasn't a party of lists that played turbo versions. If they are quick to dismiss ideas it is generally because they've tested almost everything already.

[Mr. Safety]

Sure, it's a developed deck at this point. However, the slower depths decks using not only dark confidant but also deathrite shaman have been doing well. It's a real deck.

[lavafrogg]

I'm not sure exactly when the title changed from dark depths to turbo depths but I've covered most of the lists in the primer. Last time I checked they were discussing dark confident. Dark confident was never a bad choice but it certainly wasn't a party of lists that played turbo versions. If they are quick to dismiss ideas it is generally because they've tested almost everything already.

I feel like they are 2 completely different versions of the same deck with different sideboard and main board plans. I will continue to read through the thread but aside from a few Channel Fireball articles/a video I can't find much aside from some major tournament finishes.

It also seems like the "Slow" version could just be a meta adjustment of the Turbo Version, but since players like myself have no interest to play the "Turbo" lists and tons of interest in the grindier lists... it makes a difference in this context.

Obviously no one wants this to degrade into the BUG fiasco of 2016(?) where we had 3 different BUG lists that all played 75% of the same cards, but I am looking for some info/a place to discuss the slower lists and want to make sure that I am posting in the correct location. Safety has done a good job of posting about Bob Depths for a while now, so this seemed like a natural place to start.

4

[Mr. Safety]

If you want I can update the primer, shave off all of my experimental bullshit, and post some winning/high placement lists. I would likely start with Jody Kieth's version and the one that won Eternal Weekend, but I know there are a few other lists floating around on mtgtop8.com as well.

EDIT: OP updated with Eternal Weekend winning list (which is also card-for-card the one that recently won an MTGO Online Legacy Challenge.) This seems like a good starting point, then I'll get Jody Kieth's version incorporated and any other high-placed finishes.

[lavafrogg]

If you want I can update the primer, shave off all of my experimental bullshit, and post some winning/high placement lists. I would likely start with Jody Kieth's version and the one that won Eternal Weekend, but I know there are a few other lists floating around on mtgtop8.com as well.

EDIT: OP updated with Eternal Weekend winning list (which is also card-for-card the one that recently won an MTGO Online Legacy Challenge.) This seems like a good starting point, then I'll get Jody Kieth's version incorporated and any other high-placed finishes.

Love.

First question for this thread: what is the plan against faster combo? The winning sideboards just appear to have 3 survivals and a Cage but I have found that to be kind of light. Does the 8 discard into win plan just have to be good enough or does it warrant Hymn/sphere effects?

[Mr. Safety]

Primer updated with Jody Kieth's list.

The plan is to lean on the discard of course, along with silver bullet lands: Karakas for Sneak/Show, Bojuka Bog for Reanimator/Storm/Dredge. Against elves there is Golgari Charm (and to a smaller extent Grafdigger's Cage.) Belcher is a nuisance, but rarely seen. TES can be difficult because it is fast, probably 1/2-1 turn faster, and able to work through a discard. I think that's why Jody Kieth was sideboarding Cabal Therapy. It gives you 10(!) targeted discards, 2 of them repeatable, so the odds of drawing your best interaction is high. I tinkered with Probe/Therapy early on, which gives velocity, information, and allows Cabal Therapy to be much more effective than a single Duress/Thoughtseize. It comes at a cost though, and probably not one that should be ignored. I also really liked Hymn to Tourach, usually as a 2-of, because it could allow for chaining disruption. T1 Thoughtseize, t2 Hymn can devastate almost any strategy, but especially faster combo decks. At that point you can then curve out with your smaller threats into a win or just give you a few turns to assemble a Marit Lage. I would argue that if you expect a meta-game with a high saturation of fast combo that Slow Depths is probably not as good as Turbo Depths.

In a typical meta-game with a lot of blue-based 'fair' decks, I think the mid-range plan is really good. Rather than banking on a 20/20 in every game you can do the slow grind, which is surprisingly good against the worst matchups. Discard into Bob/Library is about as good as you can hope for against Miracles, and discard into Dread of Night/Marsh Casualties/Golgari Charm is about as good as you can hope for against D&T.

[Mr. Safety]

Another good finish for Slow Depths, this one from Erick Santos again (seen him attached to the deck before.) I'm not a fan of the shaky mana-base, especially considering he's using Nev Disc and Deed in the board. I never went below 24 lands, and 25 isn't unreasonable. Another Forest + Swamp would make me feel better. *Shrug* He made it work.

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=19383&d=323453&f=LE

Looks like he has had modest success with Slow Depths since at least August of last year as well.

http://mtgtop8.com/search?player=Erick+Santos

[hovercraft]

Explore over Sylvan Scrying is interesting too.

[Mr. Safety]

Explore over Sylvan Scrying is interesting too.

Also: zero copies of Sylvan Library. Pretty sure that isn't how I'd run it.

[apple713]

Sure, it's a developed deck at this point. However, the slower depths decks using not only dark confidant but also deathrite shaman have been doing well. It's a real deck.

I consider Dark depths as a deck to be a deck thats running 4x dark depths, 4x thespian's stage, 4x vampire hexmage. This is the core of the combo. There are really 2 versions of depths with wide variation of cards. Turbo version and midrange builds make up 1 and lands makes up the other. However, once you make a deck that is going past mid game you start warping the deck to a point where it doesn't play the same as the others. This is where the lands version comes in. Its slow, it's controlling, and it plays very different since It's strategy is different. This is why it has it's own thread.

If you were to make good arguments and put up good numbers with a "bob" depths list it wouldn't get its own thread. The turbo / regular thread would adopt it. They dont care how fast the deck is, they just want to win. At the time the deck was being played the turbo version was seeing the most success, mainly because the other versions were underrepresented, but it became popular.

[AnvilOfCrom]

Also: zero copies of Sylvan Library. Pretty sure that isn't how I'd run it.

Me too. I'm running 2 Librarys and 3 Bobs and i'm pretty happy with it.

But i'm still not sure about the Goyf SB plan, because i never tried it. Miracles, Grixis Delver, Czech Pile, Lands, DnT are all good matchups to bring Goyf in, right? :confused:
I could see playing 2 in the SB.

[Mr. Safety]

Seems right to me. Bitterblossom is also good against all of those matchups, especially the blue ones like Czech/Miracles. D&T really needs Marsh Casualties or Dread of Night to get up to the 50% rate, and it's still a tough one when facing StP, Karakas, Wasteland, and Flickerwhisp all in one deck. Tarmogoyf is quite good against Lands and D&T because it distracts their Swords to Plowshares and it's a non-land threat or it's too big for Punishing Fire to deal with.

Some lists also play a singleton Rancor in the maindeck, which can be very good considering some of the roles it can play: trample over flying blockers, makes Hexmage a 4/1 first strike, allows Dark Confidant to hit harder, and even allows Deathrite to beat for 3 if Rest in Peace/Leyline of the Void is involved. I always felt it was worth it's slot.

[Mr. Safety]

I consider Dark depths as a deck to be a deck thats running 4x dark depths, 4x thespian's stage, 4x vampire hexmage. This is the core of the combo. There are really 2 versions of depths with wide variation of cards. Turbo version and midrange builds make up 1 and lands makes up the other. However, once you make a deck that is going past mid game you start warping the deck to a point where it doesn't play the same as the others. This is where the lands version comes in. Its slow, it's controlling, and it plays very different since It's strategy is different. This is why it has it's own thread.

If you were to make good arguments and put up good numbers with a "bob" depths list it wouldn't get its own thread. The turbo / regular thread would adopt it. They dont care how fast the deck is, they just want to win. At the time the deck was being played the turbo version was seeing the most success, mainly because the other versions were underrepresented, but it became popular.

Two things:

1) The thread is called 'Turbo Depths', not 'Dark Depths'. Otherwise I agree.
2) There is very little reaction in the Turbo thread when people bring up questions about the slow version. People obviously want to talk about the mid-range version of the deck, but it's stifled when visiting the Turbo thread. *shrug* Take of that what you will.

[ErickSantos]

Another good finish for Slow Depths, this one from Erick Santos again (seen him attached to the deck before.) I'm not a fan of the shaky mana-base, especially considering he's using Nev Disc and Deed in the board. I never went below 24 lands, and 25 isn't unreasonable. Another Forest + Swamp would make me feel better. *Shrug* He made it work.

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=19383&d=323453&f=LE

Looks like he has had modest success with Slow Depths since at least August of last year as well.

http://mtgtop8.com/search?player=Erick+Santos

Hello Mr. Safety and all member of this topic. Thanks to keep an eye on my results. It's funny cause i was inspired by this topic to change my Turbo Depths to a Midrange version.
The Turbo Version is a powerfull weapon, but in a field with answers the performance drops dramatically.
Let me show you my points for the changes:
1) 22 Lands: in fact i use 25, Lotus petal is a land in this build. But without ways to put those lands on battlefield the card advantage isn't good enough.
2) Explore: The list was mistyped, it's as Exploration. The same as above. Bob can give full combo, but the speed is downsized for the land drop limit.
3) No Sylvan Library: Besides the deck is midrange, the life count isn't a problem (unless you're facing a burn *Shrug*). So leave the Bob do his job and go forward.
4) Disc and Deed: They are rehearsals against Moon Stompy and other locks. I still do not have complete opinion about them. So I always leave 2 to 3 sidebord slot in search of better options. In my toolkit are: Deed, Nev, Plague Boiler, Gaze of Granite, EE. Any tool that may clean the way to the victory.

In the theme Turbo x Slow. The main strategy is the same for both, but the alternative ways are the point of discuss and should be encouraged. Some times 'potato, patato', but we can't be always right.

I hope I contributed to the topic, just as it did for my current version.

[Mr. Safety]

Thanks for the response Erick! You've obviously done well in a few events piloting this deck, so we appreciate the reports.

I think I'm going to try Collective Brutality in this deck, it does a ton of really good work. This deck isn't all-in, so incremental advantage is something we definitely want to look at when battling fair. Discard, removal, and reach all in one card seems very good. I'll probably try 2, test it out on Magic Workstation and get back to everyone on how good it performs. I'm still learning/in-love with NicFit but I return to this deck quite often, at least to evaluate card choices and test on Workstation.

[Mr. Safety]

Another slow list did well 6/23:

http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=27905&iddeck=225701

Solnox is playing maindeck Confidants now, which seems to split the difference (still no Deathrites/Decays main.) I mention it here because the Turbo Depths thread doesn't see a ton of activity, and it's not a common choice in the maindeck.

http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=27863&iddeck=225189

Here's a couple lists from 6/17 in a German tournament, 4th and 8th respectively:

http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=27843&iddeck=224951
http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=27843&iddeck=224955

I did get a 'stock' list to apple713 in the Turbo thread, but he hasn't posted it as a variant in the OP yet. Until then, I'll keep updates current in this thread.

[ErickSantos]

Big loss for our beloved deck: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/july-2-2018-banned-restricted-update-2018-07-02

[Mr. Safety]

For real. Confidant is still good, and maybe decay is still maindeck worthy. We really need to see how it shakes out.

[Mr. Safety]

I've been tinkering with this deck again, and I think including Dark Confidant is still good enough to go for an alternative list than all-in. I don't think it requires a separate thread, but here is what I'm testing ATM:

4x Vampire Hexmage
3x Dark Confidant
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Thoughtseize
3x Duress
2x Collective Brutality
3x Pithing Needle
1x Sylvan Library
4x Crop Rotation
2x Expedition Map
2x Sylvan Scrying
4x Lotus Petal
1x Rancor
3x Dark Depths
3x Thespian's Stage
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Bayou
2x Blooming Marsh
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Mishra's Factory
1x Sejiri Steppe
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Bojuka Bog
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Sideboard
3x Faerie Macabre
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Karakas
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
2x Toxic Deluge
3x Not of this World
2x Rite of Consumption


Basic plan is to swap Not of this World for Bobs post-board, depending on matchup. Confidant is generally better at grinding out games, but against difficult matchups like Death and Taxes Not of this World comes in to help protect Marit Lage. Overall, the deck is designed to be decent at a fast combo but resilient enough to grind out games against typically bad matchups (Miracles, Death and Taxes.)

I am testing the singleton Rancor in the maindeck, but I think it would probably be better as Confidant/Duress #4. Collective Brutality is designed to help give utility as a discard and removal (Baleful Strix, etc.) and allows me to theoretically cut to 3x Duress. Turn 1 Dark Confidant is pretty fucking amazing, btw. If I untap with him he will recoup the Petal/SSG immediately. If he's countered, that's taking away interaction for the combo.

Another route I am considering taking is including 1x Golgari Rot Farm. It's not for mana but rather to rebuy the EtB effects like Steppe/Bojuka Bog and to protect the combo (in response to Wasteland, Crop Rotation > GRF, put DD to hand and fizzle the wasteland.)