Hollow One Controls the Courts

[gkraigher]

Land (15)
3x Badlands
1x Bayou
4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Mountain
1x Swamp
1x Taiga
2x Verdant Catacombs
2x Wooded Foothills


Sorcery (20)
4x Burning Inquiry
4x Call to the Netherworld
4x Control of the Court
4x Faithless Looting
4x Goblin Lore


Artifact (6)
4x Lotus Petal
2x Mox Diamond

Creature (21)
4x Flameblade Adept
4x Gurmag Angler
4x Hollow One
4x Street Wraith
3x Tasigur, the Golden Fang


Sideboard
3x Ancient Grudge
4x leyline Of the void
4x Pyroblast
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Devastating Dreams


Interesting problem that Magic online doesn’t have Control of the Courts in it, so this will have to be a paper deck only.

Mox Diamond is the best accelerate, sincewhen it comes into play you DISCARD.

This is not a graveyard deck, this is a discard deck. Your graveyard matters for delver spells, but that’s about it. You can win through graveyard hate very easily.

This is a shell for the list, I am posting it to this thread to start a discussion.

The deck is crazy fast and consistent.

[JackaBo]

I like the aggro approach with no cute crap; punishing fire, bloodghast etc. However i see a problem with most of the creatures having no evasion. For instance an active pyromancer could hold off most of the creatures. Perhabs it's be worth running deeper in green and replacing 4 of the delve-guys with mandrills or go for a couple of tombstalkers.
Further i believe 16 lands is too few. If you get stuck on one land you can only play 8 of the cards. Furthermore, mox diamond isnt really ramp unless you have an extra land to pitch.

[Redkid43]

I think playing black could be wrong. Taz, Angler, and Tombstalker are very attractive, but I think green for Mandrils seems nice and adds more evasion.

If you go all green, maybe Rootwalla could be an interesting route. That also makes Vengevine appealing too.

[gkraigher]

Further i believe 16 lands is too few. If you get stuck on one land you can only play 8 of the cards. Furthermore, mox diamond isnt really ramp unless you have an extra land to pitch.

20 mana source is actually a lot, when you can cast all but 8 spells with 1 mana. The only spells that always cost 2 mana are goblin lore and control of the court.

Mox Diamond allows for lots of turn 1 Gurmag Angler and Tasigur plays.

[gkraigher]

I think playing black could be wrong. Taz, Angler, and Tombstalker are very attractive, but I think green for Mandrils seems nice and adds more evasion.

If you go all green, maybe Rootwalla could be an interesting route. That also makes Vengevine appealing too.


Tomstalker costs 8 which makes it a lot worse than Gurmag Angler. It also costs double black. Flying is not a relevant ability, speed is. There is a 3/3 black delver creature for 6 mana that is more playable than Tombstalker. But both are worse than a 4/5 and a 5/5z

As for the green cards, I looked at hooting mandrills. It’s certainly not bad, but one of the decks resilience/engine pieces is Call to the Netherword, which can only returnBlack Creatures.

Casting multiple creatures is unlikely, so triggering vengevine is hard. It requires itself to be in the graveyard, and you still have to cast two cards. Even with Rootwalla it’s a bad strategy. Rootwalla is also pretty marginal. It’s the equilavent Of playing narcomoeba or something. It’s just not a powerful card.

It’s best to streamline the deck, make it as fast as possible, and make it as resilient as possible.

[Redkid43]

What about Anger?

[gkraigher]

What about Anger?

That’s an idea.

[filln]

20 mana source is actually a lot

I don't think you can add Mox Diamond like that to your land count to come up with mana sources. Sixteen lands is really low to support Mox Diamond as is...

Anyway, I'm working on a brew similar to this but in a slightly more controlling route and less aggro. One card to consider in the sideboard is Collective Brutality. Flexible and another great discard outlet.

[Redkid43]

Is there anyway that Squee can fit here?

EDIT: Firestorm seems like a really good sideboard card, perhaps even some nonzero amount of it can be maindecked. I also thing Devastating Dreams seems too for sideboard

[gkraigher]

Devastating Dreams does seem like a great card.

[ahg113]

This looks like a lot of fun, kudos. It's expensive to cast, so maybe that's why not, but Demigod of Revenge plays well with everything present. Is black, has game from the graveyard, and evasion on a large body. 5 mana though, seems to be too slow.

Quick question. Every land except basic mountain can be used to cast DRS, but it is not present in the deck. Seems to be a better one drop than Flameblade Adept. What did I miss for its exclusion, (even as a 2 of, 3 would seem greedy, 4 incorrect).

And just as another discard outlet, a card I wanted to be a thing, but never materialized, Lotleth Troll is on theme, but, bad, kinda like Wild Mongrel. : (

And while it's not always around, is there any sort of answer for Lands? Pithing Needle in the SB?

My blind attempt at this deck for 'Trice (Firestorm over Devastating Dreams, did not want to sac own lands)-

// Hollow One Controls the Courts

// 60 Maindeck
// 4 Artifact
4 Mox Diamond

// 22 Creature
4 Gurmag Angler
4 Hollow One
4 Street Wraith
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Anger
4 Demigod of Revenge

// 16 Land
3 Badlands
1 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Taiga
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills

// 18 Sorcery
3 Burning Inquiry
3 Call to the Netherworld
3 Control of the Court
3 Faithless Looting
3 Goblin Lore
3 Collective Brutality


// 15 Sideboard
// 2 Artifact
SB: 2 Silent Gravestone

// 4 Enchantment
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void

// 6 Instant
SB: 3 Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 Firestorm

// 3 Sorcery
SB: 2 Reverent Silence
SB: 1 Hull Breach

[gkraigher]

Obviously you can run Deathrite Shaman. I don’t think you want to play it personally. Exiling lands and delving then away is the same thing. Flameblade Adept is a 4 or 5 mana 1 drop. It also has menace. The card is pretty incredible.

[gkraigher]

Ashen Rider may be the best choice vs Sneak and Show. It also has synergy with Call to the Netherworld.

[JackaBo]

I've goldfished this deck but replacing the moxes with lands and it works pretty well. You can pretty consistently cast a fatty on each turn from turn 2 and forward.
I believe some number of removal is required in the 75 is required as Leo stops your lootingplan and Pyro can stop your aggroplan.
This deck with your sideboard have no way of winning against storm either.

[NeckBird]

This is what I was messing around with:

4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Vengevine
4 Hollow One
4 Faithless Looting
2 Taiga
4 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Careful Study
4 Street Wraith
3 Hooting Mandrills
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Hapless Researcher
2 Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 Goblin Guide
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Mountain
1 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest

2 Pyroblast
4 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Destructive Revelry
2 Silent Gravestone

Burning Inquiry seems too inconsistent. Cut the black entirely and went for blue/green with Careful Study, Hapless Researcher, Gitaxian Probe, Basking Rootwalla, Vengevine, and Hooting Mandrils. Squee might be too cute, but I'm unsure what I'd replace him with. He helps when you dump out your hand with double Looting/Study so you don't have to discard relevant stuff. Maybe just add Lotus Petal or actually try out Burning Inquiry again.

[gkraigher]

I've goldfished this deck but replacing the moxes with lands and it works pretty well. You can pretty consistently cast a fatty on each turn from turn 2 and forward.
I believe some number of removal is required in the 75 is required as Leo stops your lootingplan and Pyro can stop your aggroplan.
This deck with your sideboard have no way of winning against storm either.

very true. The storm matchup is unwinnable at this point. That is step 2 in development. Step 1 is to get the shell right. We are still in step 1. Once we get to step 2, which is suring up bad matchups, there are plenty of anti-storm cards that can be played. Leyline of the Void does very well vs the traditional storm, but ANT shits all over that plan. You could play Chalice of the Void for 0. You can also play thoughtseize.

As for Burning Inquity, the card is better than it looks. It can act like a hymn to tourach for 3, getting rid of a greedy blue players only land. It also messes up combo decks like show and tell. Conversly, it is a huge liability vs other decks like Dredge. It may have to be cut, and doing so would free up room for some other cards. Having less 1 drops, does allow the deck to consider playing Chalice of the Void. Which is simply a great magic card. It's very hard to find success in Legacy if you aren't playing Brainstorm or Chalice of the Void.

[maharis]

This is what I was messing around with:

4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Vengevine
4 Hollow One
4 Faithless Looting
2 Taiga
4 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Careful Study
4 Street Wraith
3 Hooting Mandrills
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Hapless Researcher
2 Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 Goblin Guide
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Mountain
1 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest

2 Pyroblast
4 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Destructive Revelry
2 Silent Gravestone

Burning Inquiry seems too inconsistent. Cut the black entirely and went for blue/green with Careful Study, Hapless Researcher, Gitaxian Probe, Basking Rootwalla, Vengevine, and Hooting Mandrils. Squee might be too cute, but I'm unsure what I'd replace him with. He helps when you dump out your hand with double Looting/Study so you don't have to discard relevant stuff. Maybe just add Lotus Petal or actually try out Burning Inquiry again.

Arrrrgh, I had been going down the Hollow Vine path myself and was hoping I could come up with a working list first! Good job though.

The current version I'm testing is R/G with Firestorm and Loam to feed it, plus Barbarian Ring for reach. Not messing around with random discard. BUG, RUG and Jund versions all seem viable though. Let's hope VV gets a reprint in M25

Land (18)
3x Arid Mesa
1x Barbarian Ring
1x Forest
1x Forgotten Cave
1x Mountain
3x Taiga
1x Tranquil Thicket
3x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills

Creature (26)
4x Basking Rootwalla
4x Flameblade Adept
4x Hollow One
2x Hooting Mandrills
4x Insolent Neonate
4x Street Wraith
4x Vengevine

Instant (10)
3x Firestorm
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Sudden Shock

Sorcery (6)
4x Faithless Looting
2x Life from the Loam


Obviously you can run Deathrite Shaman. I don’t think you want to play it personally. Exiling lands and delving then away is the same thing. Flameblade Adept is a 4 or 5 mana 1 drop. It also has menace. The card is pretty incredible.

Yeah this card is really good at killing Jaces in my testing. It's also cheap enough to trigger VV pretty easily.

[gkraigher]

I'm pretty sure the most broken cards in any of these lists are the Goblin Lores and the Control of the Courts. I'd just run more of these with delve spells in the green versions too.

[ahg113]

Land (18)
3x Arid Mesa
1x Barbarian Ring
1x Forest
1x Forgotten Cave
1x Mountain
3x Taiga
1x Tranquil Thicket
3x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills

There looks to be 6 playable lands, and 10 fetches. With a loam engine, why doesn't this deck want Molten Vortex/Seismic Assault for reach? Also doesn't seem a stretch to throw in one or two groves for Punishing Fire either.

A few spins on 'Trice, DRS really not needed. Didn't find random discard problematic, especially with call of the netherworld. Burning inquiry, horrible against dredge, lulz discard spell vs fair/combo decks.

[alphastryk]

I've been playing around with the idea of Lingering Souls to give the deck a little more staying power and fiddling with threat count etc, and heres where I got to:

Lands (15)
1 Arid Mesa
3 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Marsh Flats
1 Plateau
1 Scrubland
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills

Sorceries (19)
4 Burning Inquiry
3 Call to the Netherworld
1 Control of the Court
4 Faithless Looting
4 Goblin Lore
3 Lingering Souls

Creatures (16)
4 Flameblade Adept
4 Gurmag Angler
4 Street Wraith
1 Sultai Scavenger
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang

Artifacts (10)
4 Hollow One
4 Lotus Petal
2 Mox Diamond

The manabase might still be a little off (and I know dropping basics is greedy as hell), and maybe green is needed depending on the sideboard but I wanted to focus on executing our plan well before I overthink things.

[maharis]

Dat 1/1 with built in pump. Watch out Griselbrand here comes lizard mid range.

https://i.imgur.com/nWhI1bB.png

[maharis]

Well, I 3-2'd a league and went 2-2 at my weekly (but won my first 5 games) with an approximation of this list:

4 Hollow One
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Vengevine
4 Flameblade Adept
4 Street Wraith
4 Insolent Neonate
2 Hooting Madrills
1 Anger

4 Faithless Looting
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Firestorm
2 Sudden Shock
2 Life from the Loam
1 Dead/Gone

4 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Forgotten Cave
1 Barbarian Ring

4 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pyroclasm
1 Magistrate's Veto

I do think it has to have blue in it because it's very challenging if you don't draw faithless looting or they surgical faithless looting. So getting redundancy with Careful Study is appealing. Also I think the storm plan out of the board would be better with Flusterstorm/Force -- like Neckbird's list. And Cephalid Coliseum, etc. etc.

Anger has been pretty good, even just as a 4-mana haste creature to trigger VV or get through for the win. However, Wonder would probably be even better. I also have Brawn in my "maybe" pile to get around TNN/YP infinite chump blocks.

The Loam package is OK... it's nice to refill your hand for Looting effects and we always have Barb Ring recursion as a plan. I think it's better than trying to play Grove or something; both plans are slow, but Loam has a little more upside in helping hit land drops vs. Wasteland decks and building mini-engines with cycling lands.

[Eldariel]

Red offers an interesting extra in Gamble. Being able to find an extra Hollow One and discard a card comboes nicely with e.g. Faithless Looting. Though sadly the random discard does make things a tad unreliable and I think a Legacy-viable version would have to run non-random self-discard. It also doesn't feel strong enough to be able to run without interaction; combo feels very difficult otherwise.

[Lexi]

This deck probably wouldn’t run frantic search if frantic search was legal right? Waiting until turn 3 even if free is too slow I’m guessing but then again people are suggesting cephalosporins coliseum which is slower and effectively costs 2 blue.

[alphastryk]

Red offers an interesting extra in Gamble. Being able to find an extra Hollow One and discard a card comboes nicely with e.g. Faithless Looting. Though sadly the random discard does make things a tad unreliable and I think a Legacy-viable version would have to run non-random self-discard. It also doesn't feel strong enough to be able to run without interaction; combo feels very difficult otherwise.

Now Gamble is an interesting thought... back to the drawing board :)

[maharis]

This deck probably wouldn’t run frantic search if frantic search was legal right? Waiting until turn 3 even if free is too slow I’m guessing but then again people are suggesting cephalosporins coliseum which is slower and effectively costs 2 blue.

I would definitely play Frantic Search. I don't think it would be a 4-of but it's very powerful. I've considered cards like Compulsive Research and Thirst for Knowledge but the tapping out is the hard part. The fact that it is an instant means if you are on the Rootwalla/VV plan you can do it on their turn (though it doesn't help with Hollow One of course).

Izzet Charm is in my pile of cards for the U build right now. Kills DRS, looting redundancy, and counters haymakers like Jace, K-Command, and NO (and potentially even Terminus if they try to brainstorm/predict into it on our turn or something). Hope to have a list by tomorrow.

[maharis]

This deck has some serious swings but the payoffs are so sick

https://i.imgur.com/zvC621f.png

[ChrisDissent]

This deck has some serious swings but the payoffs are so sick

Hello, could you share your updated list pls ? Really interested.

[mistercakes]

Would casting breakthrough for x=2 be worth it in this kind of deck? Or still too lousy?

[maharis]

This is the most up to date list but I’m fiddling with it a lot

4 hollow one
4 flameblade adept
4 hapless researcher
4 street wraith
4 basking rootwalla
4 vengevine
1 skaab ruinator
1 hooting mandrills
1 wonder

4 careful study
4 lightning bolt
2 faithless looting
2 izzet charm
2 stubborn denial
1 life from the loam

3 scalding tarn
3 wooded foothills
2 misty rainforest
2 tropical island
2 volcanic island
1 taiga
1 island
1 forest
1 mountain
1 lonely sandbar
1 barbarian ring

3 pyrostatic pillar
2 flusterstorm
2 surgical extraction
2 pyroblast
2 ancient grudge
1 echoing truth
1 pyroclasm
1 tormod’s crypt
1 sulfur elemental


Would casting breakthrough for x=2 be worth it in this kind of deck? Or still too lousy?

It would be sick but I think a tad too slow, at least in the build I’m using. However, it could be interesting in a Call to the Netherworld build just because of more free madness.

There’s probably math on having a couple VVs, hollow ones and rootwallas in your top X cards. Like, what are the chances that you breakthrough for 1 and get a bunch of VVs back that turn. But that’s above my math ability.

[maharis]

Streamed the deck a bit last night, I can't put it down because of turns like this

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/233061771

[razvan]

I am starting to acquire the cards to make this ridiculousness. I do think that having 4 maindeck Thoughtseize might be reasonable, but it might also just dillute too much of the deck. I also only own 2 Control of the Courts, so I will put in 2 Collective Brutality and see (and also see how it would be as CotC #3 and #4).

It's an exciting deck to be certain.

[Lexi]

I am starting to acquire the cards to make this ridiculousness. I do think that having 4 maindeck Thoughtseize might be reasonable, but it might also just dillute too much of the deck.

I think you're on the right track about wanting discard, but I think cabal therapy might be more useful as it is still a resource you can use once it is discarded. I think it works especially well either after an attack or with a root walla.

[Fox]

I think Breakthrough is probably fine. In a normal game were you ever going to turn 2 a Goblin Lore with 4 cards left in hand [before Lore resolves] and risk a 37.5% chance of losing the best plan your hand had? After that point Breakthrough is going to generally outperform, especially in a longer game. The question is probably more about are you playing red at all, or can you fit Faithless Looting by itself in a BUG approach. The URg approach also seems fine, but I don't think you could really justify not incorporating P-Fire. Collective Brutality seems like a far better card than Thoughtseize given how untinteractive the linear versions of this deck are.

[slave]

I've been playing around with this deck idea. I like it!! Kudos for the deck idea.

I'm pretty sure the most broken cards in any of these lists are the Goblin Lores and the Control of the Courts. I'd just run more of these with delve spells in the green versions too.
I think you're dead right to pursue these two cards.
They offer a great chance to drop fatties like Hollow One, given Chalice@1 is easy for many opponents' decks to drop on T1.


... cabal therapy might be more useful as it is still a resource you can use once it is discarded.
For me, I like the idea of black, creature options a plenty even without recursive threats.
Cabal Therapy is probz my fave magic card. Raven's Crime here could be useful, as we only care about the first couple of land drops, after that you might repeatedly use Crime to kill their hand. I know Living Death is a casual card and doesn't really fit here, but this deck idea immediately had me thinking about it....

Blue does have solid options.
Hapless Researcher, Careful Study, Breakthru etc. are all nice, but I'm actually more interested in Tolarian Winds.
Court & Goblin lore together with Winds is where I'm thinking.
Winds resolving = big turns with Flameblade Adept, and enable any delve card, letting you drop most of your hand on the field.
Winds with Call to the Netherworld works okay.:cool:

My real concern here though, is that Goblin Lore, Control of the Courts & Tolarian Winds are all going to be counter fodder....
Without those cards doing some heavy lifting, I think the rest of the deck may not be the threat we may hope for, which is why I'm testing out a list with discard.

[maharis]

The URg approach also seems fine, but I don't think you could really justify not incorporating P-Fire.

The reason is for no Punishing Fire/Grove is that this is fundamentally an aggro deck and as such needs to be able to close out games efficiently and doesn't want to give the opponent any breathing room. I know that Punishing Zoo has existed in the past but this deck is even more aggressive than those more midrangy Zoo decks -- I consider it more like Affinity.

[Firefraise]

I'm tinkering something very junky right now with unearth and circling vultures. What do you think of it? Specially unearth, both seems good with hollow one and skaab ruinator which are my main damage sources.

I'm working on my mana base and a way to protect the win coditions but at the moment i was thinking about 4 hollow one, 4 skaab ruinator, 4 unearth, 4 circling vultures, 4 mox diamond, 4 street wraith and 4 attunement as a base.

Totaly forgot about tolarian winds though

[maharis]

I tried skaab ruinator. It was hilarious but it’s vulnerable to pyroblast and decay, and you always have to tap 3 lands which is kind of a lot. I was considering a UR moon build without VVs and with Dack and Ruinator though. And mind bomb! But that’s not on MTGO.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Firefraise]

I tried skaab ruinator. It was hilarious but it’s vulnerable to pyroblast and decay, and you always have to tap 3 lands which is kind of a lot. I was considering a UR moon build without VVs and with Dack and Ruinator though. And mind bomb! But that’s not on MTGO.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You don't have to tap 3 land with unearth. Mind bombs! I forgot about those too, need to try them.

[razvan]

So I tried to BR version this week and went 2-2. Beat maverick and the mill deck, lost to elves and jeskai stoneblade.

I will post a new and updated decklist, but the one I ran was relatively standard, except 2 MD Collective Brutality over 2 Control of the Court which I only own two of. The sideboard is too chaotic and I will need to improve it. Definitely need board sweepers, whether Anger of the Gods, or Toxic Deluge. Firestorm or Devastating Dreams *could* be good but I think you don't want to discard too much to that specific effect.

Anger is great, so I upped that to 2 MD. This is what I would run right now:

4 Flameblade Adept
4 Street Wraith
4 Hollow One
4 Gurmag Angler
2 Flamewake Phoenix
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Anger
4 Burning Inquiry
4 Goblin Lore
2 Control of the Court
2 Collective Brutality
4 Faithless Looting
4 Mox Diamond
4 Badlands
3 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Bayou
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Swamp

[Ceralyst]

Hello all,
I have been tinkering with a Grixis Hollow One list lately, but have only been able to play test it against 4 C Pile. In 8 (un-side boarded games) Games I split 4-4 against it. The main reason for my losses was Deathrite shaman and Baleful strix. Both of these cards need answers, or they will remove your threats, and take away your advantage. The deck operates as a hybrid Hollow one / Dredge deck, as I utilize my graveyard for Prized Amalgam, Bloodghasts, Flamewake Phoenix, and Cabal Therapy, then also to fuel big delve creatures. It can be very explosive, and also somewhat resilient with the recursion creatures, and cabal therapy package. I play Lotus Petal over Mox diamond because you are running a shortened mana base already.
For Mox diamond to be effective you would need be running at least 20 lands in the main deck. Lotus petal does a fine job of accelerating the mana and fueling the GY at the same time. I am by no means a great deck builder, so any input you all can give would be appreciated.

An example hand to have a solid turn 1 on the play would be:
Lotus Petal, Faithless Looting, Hollow one, Tasigur, Street wraith, Anger, Fetchland
Always lead with lotus petal for faithless looting (or careful study) before you play a land in case you hit a bloodghast. Assume you hit a Bloodghast and a land off of the looting (discard your anger, and bloodghast)
cycle street wraith (assume you draw a Gitaxian Probe), Play your probe; draw off probe (assume you draw a careful study), then play your fetch (return bloodghast), search for a badlands. At this point you can cast your Tasigur, and Hollow one then swing for 10 turn 1.

Spells: (18)
4 - Faithless Looting
4 - Careful Study
4 - Gitaxian Probe
3 - Forked Bolt
3 - Cabal Therapy

Artifacts: (4)
4 - Lotus Petal

Creatures: (23)
4 - Street Wraith
2 - Gurmag Angler
2 - Tasigur
4 - Hollow One
3 - Flamewake Phoenix
4 - Bloodghast
2 - Prized Amalgam
2 - Anger

Lands: (15)
4 - Polluted Delta
4 - Bloodstained Mire
2 - Underground Sea
3 - Volcanic Island
2 - Badlands

SB: (15)
1 - Cabal therapy
2 - Silent Gravestone
2 - Pyroblast
1 - REB
2 - Diabolic Edict
2 - Abrade
2 - flusterstorm
1 - surgical extraction
2 - vapor snag

[Eldariel]

I like this list. It feels like it has enough advantages to not be a strictly worse Dredge-deck while still maintaining aspects of what makes Dredge scary. I think "terror with graveyard but a credible threat without" is what you should aim for; you'll see a lot of Leylines G2 and 3. I definitely think the discard package should be a bit bigger though; I'd like some number of Collective Brutality (also doubles as removal for DR but fairly pricy) or Thoughtseize (seems better than Inquisition in 99% of the cases), using 7-8 slots. Also, have you found any trouble with the reduced discard package? Lack of Burning Inquiries reduces the number of explosive T1s you can have requiring two cards instead of one, though there's much to be said over controlling your draws. Having all the engine spells cause card disadvantage in the strict sense of the word feels a bit annoying though, which is the advantage of Goblin Lore and Control of the Court; random but CA neutral. Modern testers consistently report those cards to be performing above expectation so perhaps there's something to the random build of the deck.

EDIT: Though Tasigur seems almost strictly worse than Angler. In a world of Reality Smashers, Tarmogoyfs, Anglers and company 4/5 is so much worse than 5/5 and a deck with 15 lands and little lategame isn't particularly interested in Tasigur's ability. I'd probably just run more engine cards in those slots instead though.

[Ceralyst]

I like this list. It feels like it has enough advantages to not be a strictly worse Dredge-deck while still maintaining aspects of what makes Dredge scary. I think "terror with graveyard but a credible threat without" is what you should aim for; you'll see a lot of Leylines G2 and 3. I definitely think the discard package should be a bit bigger though; I'd like some number of Collective Brutality (also doubles as removal for DR but fairly pricy) or Thoughtseize (seems better than Inquisition in 99% of the cases), using 7-8 slots. Also, have you found any trouble with the reduced discard package? Lack of Burning Inquiries reduces the number of explosive T1s you can have requiring two cards instead of one, though there's much to be said over controlling your draws. Having all the engine spells cause card disadvantage in the strict sense of the word feels a bit annoying though, which is the advantage of Goblin Lore and Control of the Court; random but CA neutral. Modern testers consistently report those cards to be performing above expectation so perhaps there's something to the random build of the deck.

EDIT: Though Tasigur seems almost strictly worse than Angler. In a world of Reality Smashers, Tarmogoyfs, Anglers and company 4/5 is so much worse than 5/5 and a deck with 15 lands and little lategame isn't particularly interested in Tasigur's ability. I'd probably just run more engine cards in those slots instead though.


I feel like you are correct where it could use more of a discard package. I also see your point, but also my friend's point about Tasigur. He stated that Karakas is huge while playing him since he's legendary. I wanted to take away the randomness from the modern version, and more or less control what I am discarding with this build. I really have not had any trouble yet where I have had hollow ones in my hand and was unable to cast him. I would think that taking out both tasigur's, and adding a 3rd gurmag, and a 4th Cabal Therpay may be beneficial. Perhaps I could go down to 1 Anger, and some number of Forked bolt for better removal? I also think that maybe Daze would be an option, as it would potentially allow me an alternative way to play lands for bloodghast triggers.

[rlesko]

I don't really like Lotus Petal in this deck - I don't think it can handle the card disadvantage and the upside of getting a bloodghast in play when your opponent is at 20 seems minimal at best.

I've played this deck a lot in modern and let me tell you- discarding 2 is a world of a difference from discarding 3. I understand people wanting to get away from burning inquiry as its card disadvantage and other random discard but I honestly don't see how the deck functions without a critical mass of discard 3+ spells. Also churning through cards is very important.

I think the core of the deck revolves around the following cards

4 faithless looting (IMO not replaceable by careful study. If you want to run grixis thats fine. But being able to flash it back is extremely important to give your deck card velocity)
4 Goblin Lore
4 street wraith
4 hollow one
4 delve dudes
6-8 bloodghast / phoenix / other value creature to discard (I'm struggling on a number for the recurring creatures, but obviously a critical mass is important)
4 Cabal Therapy

If I were to convert the deck to legacy the first card I would put in would be 4 cabal therapies. Obviously you would want to include gitaxian probe after that, but I'm not actually sure the deck wants that, as its not discarding cards. It may be too good not to play, though.

I think the following cards are powerful enough to be considered for a legacy shell-

Undiscovered Paradise

Attunement
Breakthrough (Mana intensive)
Careful Study
Magus of the Bazaar (in conjunction with fast mana or Anger)
Read the Runes
Tolarian Winds

Anger
Control the Court (lol buyout)
Firestorm

Dack Fayden

Ashen Ghoul
Chain Smog
Tortured Existence (Mana intensive)
Entomb (decent utility with Anger, cabal therapy, and your other value graveyard dudes)

[yankeedave]

I really like the idea of this deck. I'd be tempted to do something like the below:

2 Anger
3 Badlands
4 Bloodghast
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
2 Flamewake Phoenix
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Gurmag Angler
4 Hollow One
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Polluted Delta
4 Street Wraith
4 Thoughtseize
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island

A friend pointed out that DRS is a beating and isn't a fan of the 2/2 split with Anger and Pheonix. Test hands have proved a little clunky so far, but I'd appreciate your thoughts.

[Ceralyst]

I really like the idea of this deck. I'd be tempted to do something like the below:

2 Anger
3 Badlands
4 Bloodghast
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
2 Flamewake Phoenix
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Gurmag Angler
4 Hollow One
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Polluted Delta
4 Street Wraith
4 Thoughtseize
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island

A friend pointed out that DRS is a beating and isn't a fan of the 2/2 split with Anger and Pheonix. Test hands have proved a little clunky so far, but I'd appreciate your thoughts.

My current list is below. I still really like lotus petal in this build. There are games where I had 2 hollow ones in hand, cycled 2 street wraith's, played a land, and lotus petal and was able to cast both hollow ones turn one. Other games just using lotus petal to help dig for bloodghast and prized amalgam to put into the Graveyard before playing a land is huge. It also allows you to cast 2 looting spells turn 1.
Correct sequencing is crucial for this deck. You will also want to make sure you prioritize casting cabal therapy turn 1 if you have probe (unless you have an absolutely explosive hand).
Save your bolts for DRS. They should be your primary targets for bolt and / or therapy. I will also be testing with some number of Firestorms in the main and side.

Spells: (20)
4 - Faithless Looting
4 - Careful Study
4 - Gitaxian Probe
4 - Lightning Bolt
4 - Cabal Therapy

Artifacts: (4)
4 - Lotus Petal

Creatures: (21)
4 - Street Wraith
3 - Gurmag Angler
4 - Hollow One
3 - Flamewake Phoenix
4 - Bloodghast
3 - Prized Amalgam

Lands: (15)
4 - Polluted Delta
4 - Bloodstained Mire
2 - Underground Sea
3 - Volcanic Island
2 - Badlands

SB: (15)
2 - Silent Gravestone
2 - Pyroblast
1 - REB
2 - Diabolic Edict
2 - Abrade
2 - flusterstorm
2 - surgical extraction
2 - Invasive Surgery

[rlesko]

If you're worried about bloodghast triggers, why not just play fetches and undiscovered paradise? Could even play some number of dakmor salvages. I just don't see why this deck would want the card disadvantage of Lotus Petal and remain convinced the deck cannot handle it in addition to all the looting effects.

[Ceralyst]

If you're worried about bloodghast triggers, why not just play fetches and undiscovered paradise? Could even play some number of dakmor salvages. I just don't see why this deck would want the card disadvantage of Lotus Petal and remain convinced the deck cannot handle it in addition to all the looting effects.

This deck plays 8 fetchlands already. I was contemplating a 9th though... Undiscovered would be okay, but I think fetches and duals are just better. I am not "worried" about the bloodghast triggers. I have no problem getting them out now. The reason is to speed the clock up 1 turn. This deck needs to be fast and pound the opponent with an overwhelming number of power on the board, so it can have lethal on turn 3 or 4. In order to do that turn 1 bloodghast with either a 2nd bloodghast, or an amalgam will help with the pressure. That goes without saying that you can also hit a hollow one, and potentially have 9-10 power on the board turn one. You have no idea how many cards you can chew through on turn one until you sleeve up this deck and try it. There are games where I can play a hollow one or 2, and an angler on turn 1, because it is not uncommon to see about 12 -15 cards on turn 1 through all of your filtering.

The lotus petals serve multiple functions.
1. Fast mana to accelerate your turn 1 discard effects
2. Fuels the graveyard for angler
3. helps support additional mana when needed for the already short mana base.

[maharis]

Almost forgot about this deck...

I think turbo hollow one decks are extremely well positioned right now. Anyone tried anything? I just 3-2'd a league with a GR version. Vengevine is supercharged now that DRS is gone. But combo ate my lunch.

[Michael Keller]

How is Vengevine "turbo-charged" right now? With DRS gone, Surgical Extraction is going to get bolstered in more sideboards because the incidental graveyard hate that could be leveraged is now gone.

And with Reanimator poised to return, so will other forms of hate out of sideboards.

[maharis]

How is Vengevine "turbo-charged" right now? With DRS gone, Surgical Extraction is going to get bolstered in more sideboards because the incidental graveyard hate that can be used is gone.

And with Reanimator poised to return, so will other forms of hate out of sideboards.

It's great in game 1, and in game 2 all the GY hate comes in that does nothing vs. 3 hollow ones on turn 1 :smile:

https://i.imgur.com/JA2OlHA.jpg?1

I do think that if they figure out to counter/surgical Faithless Looting we're in trouble, so have to go back to the U splash for redundancy with Faithless Looting. You also get ways to counter their hate cards.

[mistercakes]

Just run silent gravestones. Also shuts off snapcasters.

[maxtopig]

What's your latest list, if you don't mind me asking?


It's great in game 1, and in game 2 all the GY hate comes in that does nothing vs. 3 hollow ones on turn 1 :smile:

https://i.imgur.com/JA2OlHA.jpg?1

I do think that if they figure out to counter/surgical Faithless Looting we're in trouble, so have to go back to the U splash for redundancy with Faithless Looting. You also get ways to counter their hate cards.

[deragun]

Now that this thread is semi-active today, I'll throw my thoughts on this type of deck into the ring. I was working on a Grixis based list for about 2 months until the DRS ban. I haven't done much since as I'm busy toying around with GW maverick immediately post ban.

Here's my latest list:

4 Flameblade Adept
4 Bloodghast
1 Prized Amalgam
1 Anger
1 Wonder
4 Hollow One
4 Gurmag Angler

2 Dack Fayden

4 Burning Inquiry
3 Careful Study
2 Entomb
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Tolarian Winds

3 Arid Mesa
2 Badlands
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Island
1 Mountain
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

SIDEBOARD

4 Thoughtsieze
2 Abrade
2 Price of Progress
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
2 Silent Gravestone
3 Bitterblossom

I wanted to go with non-random discard, and the core idea of the deck is to leverage Tolarian Winds to max value. So ideal sequence would be T1 Adept, into T2 Tolarian for 4 or 5...swing for unblockable 5 or 6 dmg and drop a Hollow One 2nd main. Tolarian also makes a T3 Angler pretty easy to do. Anger/Wonder are to break board stalls with the 2 entomb tutor package, and the Amalgam is another tutor target for extra value before getting a bloodghast out of the yard.

Non-random was the goal, but I ended up settling on using Burning Inquiry despite this because the pseudo removal on them proved to be more than worth the chance of losing a playable angler/HO.

Sideboard will need work in a post DRS world. My immediate thoughts are that it should be able to play through a surgical, etc, so no longer a need for the Gravestones. Price of Progress was a test on extra reach for the kill, but probably not what's most needed anymore. Given the deck easily makes Goyf 4/5 or higher by T3, more ways to deal with that are needed...probably Big Game Hunters are where I'll start. I'm also going to have to look for a few more good options that aren't GY dependent. Other madness creatures, or such that will help give some game under a RIP, etc. Also, haven't played against much combo, so not sure if the 4 thoughtsieze would be enough...maybe more against combo.

Anyway, just thought I'd share. Any thoughts/questions are welcome!

[maharis]

What's your latest list, if you don't mind me asking?

Same as post 22 but with blood moon, edge of autumn and nostalgic dreams instead of firestorm and sudden shock. The moon plan isn't as good anymore though now that Grixis is on the outs so that's getting cut. Will probably go back to RUG.


Just run silent gravestones. Also shuts off snapcasters.

Very true, and I don't think I'll be doing the loam thing so this could work.

Will force me to run Tormod's Crypt as my own grave hate but I think that's fine.


Here's my latest list:

looks cool. I know I should probably play black in the deck but Vengevine is so satisfying. Maybe a BUG version with VV, bloodghast and Amalgam could work. You lose the Flameblade plan but there's always Drake Haven. Or Wharf Infiltrator!

[ed06288]

so anyway

Sent from my SM-J100VPP using Tapatalk

[rufus]

I always want to put cards like Library of Leng and Call to the Netherworld in decks with bulk self-discard effects.

[deragun]

looks cool. I know I should probably play black in the deck but Vengevine is so satisfying. Maybe a BUG version with VV, bloodghast and Amalgam could work. You lose the Flameblade plan but there's always Drake Haven. Or Wharf Infiltrator!

I only play paper, and don't have vengevines, so I never deeply considered the green side of this archetype. However, wouldn't a BUG version with Bloodghast and Amalgam be a lot of hard to actually cast creatures that would make VV much harder to pull off? I always assumed a workable VV version would require fewer other 'return to battlefield' creatures on top of Basking Rootwalla to have enough options for VV.

I'll have to keep Drake Haven in mind though. I generally was trying to make the deck fully function off of only 2 lands, but ended up trying out Dack anyway. That seems like another very interesting 3 drop for my version, but it would be a bit slow as I'd almost never be able to drop it AND get a token off it same turn.



I always want to put cards like Library of Leng and Call to the Netherworld in decks with bulk self-discard effects.
Never really considered Library before, that could be interesting...but seems like a maxed out random discard version would benefit most from that. Call was in my original builds, but just didn't seem to do enough. Anglers are only real target, otherwise you'd have to start running Tasigurs for more targets but that much delve really cancels Coliseum's utility and Coliseum is a much needed giant growth for Adept to push through lethal. Calling back a bloodghast, while ok in pure CA terms, just didn't work out well in my testing.

[rufus]

...
Never really considered Library before, that could be interesting...but seems like a maxed out random discard version would benefit most from that. Call was in my original builds, but just didn't seem to do enough. Anglers are only real target, otherwise you'd have to start running Tasigurs for more targets but that much delve really cancels Coliseum's utility and Coliseum is a much needed giant growth for Adept to push through lethal. Calling back a bloodghast, while ok in pure CA terms, just didn't work out well in my testing.

I'm not sure either idea is particularly good in practice.

Library can also do work with full hand discard like Tolarian Winds. That said, I imagine that most of the time Noxious Revival would to the same thing, but better, most of the time.

To make Call to the Netherworld make sense you want 12+ black creatures that you're happy to return, but Street Wraith and Gurmag Angler only gets you to 8.

[apple713]

just spitballing here, are there advantages to playing this over a simple reanimator or dredge? If the goal is to capitalize on delve cards you are going through an awful lot of trouble to just get an angler into play for cheap and its not a game breaking card. If the deck had a way to combat combo decks it might just be nice as a recursive midrange deck but its really lacking here.

[deragun]

just spitballing here, are there advantages to playing this over a simple reanimator or dredge? If the goal is to capitalize on delve cards you are going through an awful lot of trouble to just get an angler into play for cheap and its not a game breaking card. If the deck had a way to combat combo decks it might just be nice as a recursive midrange deck but its really lacking here.

In reality, probably not much advantage right now for my Grixis attempt. Primary idea is to try having much more game against GY hate than all-in GY decks. HO/Adept are untouched by RIP/LLoV, bloodghast is castable etc. Threats are diversified enough that I never felt Surgical was lights out pre-ban. Big Game Hunter is good option post board for Tarmogoyf, but given that D&T is making a serious comeback and none of their threats are hit by BGH, and you'll rarely cast bloodghast with their mana denial suite I'm stuck on how you'd win post board games there.

I'll maybe go back to this in a few months once the meta settles a bit. But before ban, I felt it was about as good as I can make it, and it often felt like it needed just 1 more thing. Either a better synergistic entomb target, or another flavor of adept @ 1cmc (Cunning Survivor costing U instead of 1U would likely do it), or something.

[KobeBryan]

Now that this thread is semi-active today, I'll throw my thoughts on this type of deck into the ring. I was working on a Grixis based list for about 2 months until the DRS ban. I haven't done much since as I'm busy toying around with GW maverick immediately post ban.

Here's my latest list:

4 Flameblade Adept
4 Bloodghast
1 Prized Amalgam
1 Anger
1 Wonder
4 Hollow One
4 Gurmag Angler

2 Dack Fayden

4 Burning Inquiry
3 Careful Study
2 Entomb
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Tolarian Winds

3 Arid Mesa
2 Badlands
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Island
1 Mountain
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

SIDEBOARD

4 Thoughtsieze
2 Abrade
2 Price of Progress
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
2 Silent Gravestone
3 Bitterblossom

I wanted to go with non-random discard, and the core idea of the deck is to leverage Tolarian Winds to max value. So ideal sequence would be T1 Adept, into T2 Tolarian for 4 or 5...swing for unblockable 5 or 6 dmg and drop a Hollow One 2nd main. Tolarian also makes a T3 Angler pretty easy to do. Anger/Wonder are to break board stalls with the 2 entomb tutor package, and the Amalgam is another tutor target for extra value before getting a bloodghast out of the yard.

Non-random was the goal, but I ended up settling on using Burning Inquiry despite this because the pseudo removal on them proved to be more than worth the chance of losing a playable angler/HO.

Sideboard will need work in a post DRS world. My immediate thoughts are that it should be able to play through a surgical, etc, so no longer a need for the Gravestones. Price of Progress was a test on extra reach for the kill, but probably not what's most needed anymore. Given the deck easily makes Goyf 4/5 or higher by T3, more ways to deal with that are needed...probably Big Game Hunters are where I'll start. I'm also going to have to look for a few more good options that aren't GY dependent. Other madness creatures, or such that will help give some game under a RIP, etc. Also, haven't played against much combo, so not sure if the 4 thoughtsieze would be enough...maybe more against combo.

Anyway, just thought I'd share. Any thoughts/questions are welcome!

Use goblin lore