M.O.S.T. - Merieke, Opposition, (Survival), Tradewind Rider [Archive] - Page 2

deragun

04-11-2019, 11:16 AM

Nice to hear you're enjoying yourself and improving, Deragun! Thanks for sharing!
How has Griselbrand been for you then, in what matchups does he shine? Since we can't draw into FoW's, depending on build of course, it's not clear how much he's needed. Draw 7 is pretty good vs control decks and flying 7/7 lifelink is pretty good vs lightning bolts and delvers, so maybe it's the way to go. To some extent Stoneforge Mystic + Batterskull can do similar things but much more reliably, it's hard to figure out which way to go..

My experience matches you assessment pretty well...the draw 7 is definitely the least used part of the card, ironically enough. It's the 7/7 body and lifelink that matter most in my experience with this deck. I play against Miracles infrequently enough (not much in my local store meta) that I can't say if it's particularly good there, but I don't see how it wouldn't be...

Otherwise, in my view it would ideally be a hard-castable similar threat without the draw 7 rather than a quad-black card you're never casting, and still be just as good in most cases. I've thought about trying Atraxa as the target instead of Griselbrand, but I've had too much trouble keeping Atraxa around consistently. Between Dismember,Delver+other blocker/removal, Pteramander, etc, she usually isn't too long for this world for me. My latest thought is that possibly Lyra Dawnbringer might be the best middle ground here. She's castable, and 5/5 first strike deals with most of the trouble I've seen with Atraxa. I might try that out and look to include most of the really good legendary creatures (Merieke, Leovold, Lyra, Teeg, etc) and have the Loyal Retainers be a bit more toolbox-y rather than solely coupled with a non-castable fatty. Elesh Norn is also an interesting idea, but I tend to go down in life often enough that it's the lifelink that saves the day the most. And if none of this works out, I may try the stoneforge/Batterskull idea as well.

Here's what I'm currently thinking for this other Splinterfright oriented deck idea. I have yet to do more than goldfishing (trading into Dark Confidants very soon, so I can give it a real go) but it seems interesting. Manabase might still need some work, but it's a start at least:

CREATURE
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Stitcher's Supplier
4 Baleful Strix
4 Dark Confidant
4 Grim Flayer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Splinterfright

PLANESWALKER
2 Liliana, the Last Hope

SORCERY
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith

INSTANT
2 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Assassin's Trophy

ARTIFACT
1 Umezawa's Jitte

ENCHANTMENT
1 Mirri's Guile

LAND
2 Bayou
1 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs

I was originally thinking of this as Abzan with Moms and Vials, but I think this feels like a smoother deck in comparison. There's a shocking amount of card advantage and deck manipulation between Suppliers, Bobs, Strixes, Flayers, Splinterfrights, Guile, and being able to rebuy most of those with Liliana which I hope will make up for having to play into counterspells without Vial.

Basic idea is to T1 supplier to get the flayer/splinterfright engine going, or to play a Hierarch as removal bait so real threats stick later. Then start slowing things down a bit with Strix/removal and drop a Bob to get ahead and late game search up a giant splinterfright to finish. And there's enough safety valves between Therapy flashback, Liliana, and push/decay to manage life totals with Bob when needed, but low CMC in general as well as library manipulation going on that I hope to not take too much off of Bob most of the time.

As I'm still thinking through this even for the MD, I don't have much of a sideboard yet...but I assume it'll start with a few flusterstorms and a suite of thoughtsieze for combo match ups. I also really like the idea of an Edric, Spymaster of Trest for grindier matchups to get more cards off of Strix and tramplers.

I would love anyone's thoughts on this, and I'll update once I get the Confidants and start trying this out at my local.

pettdan

04-11-2019, 04:51 PM

Actually I'd suggest Sword of Light and Shadow before Batterskull, but they are both useful. The Sword just seems to have a lttle more utility.

Regarding your list, two things come to mind. First, there's too little synergy to motivate Stitcher's Supplier, I feel like. Not sure what you should add, could be some value card like Deep Analysis or aggro card like Bloodghast or Vengevine. Not sure I like any of them enough.. Probably try a mix and get a feeling for them. The other issue is interacting with Storm and Sneak and Show, it's like a Legacy fair deck lackmus test. The therapies are a good start but you need something more, probably some Thoughtseizes since they make follow up Therapies very good. Typically you would like to couple that with hatebears or counterspells or a very fast clock (like Arclight Phoenix or Marit Lage). [edit: just noticed the Leovold, great] That's not so easy to put together.. Liliana of the Veil is another option. So, just some things to consider as you start testing..

Also 16 lands looks a bit light, but you have gsz into arbor and nobles and a lot of card draw so it might work.

Memories of the Time

04-12-2019, 07:04 AM

^Same thought: you have many enablers for what? Supplier is laughable in Legacy if you don't have something really strong to enable.
For me, the strong card of your deck is Liliana, an awesome card for us not played in the usual build for her cc. But really, you need something to do with all these creatures in the grave: Vengevine+Intuition, Necrotic Ooze, Varolz...

pettdan

04-15-2019, 11:18 AM

Here's an invitation to the Discord that Memories created a while back: https://discord.gg/a3HRRhH

I first suggested we only use it for narrow discussion among the active players, in case someone doesn't want to share some tech for whatever reason (I sometimes noticed this). I thought this would encourage more open sharing of information on the Source where everyone can find it more easily.. Now there is a channel available for the active contributors only, in case someone wants to keep some discussion confined. So, use your nick name from the Source for access to that channel!

Bobmans

06-08-2019, 04:58 AM

So this morning I noticed the Yawghmoth, Thran Physician Nicfit list from Bahra and thought that MOST as an archetype might enable Yawghmoth in a very good way.
Also I have been pondering on MOST and have been most attracted with Spike Feeder and Archangel of Thune combo. The deck was still missing something and the Bahra list inspired me to include a 'Yawghmoth-package'.
After some solid discussion with Pettdan about a first draft of the list, this is what it is currently at.

Creature (30)
1x Anafenza, the Foremost
1x Archangel of Thune
3x Birds of Paradise
1x Cabal Therapist
4x Fauna Shaman
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Hallowed Spiritkeeper
1x Knight of Autumn
1x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Matsu-Tribe Sniper
1x Meren of Clan Nel Toth
2x Mother of Runes
3x Noble Hierarch
1x Orzhov Pontiff
1x Quirion Ranger
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Scryb Ranger
1x Shalai, Voice of Plenty
1x Spike Feeder
1x Spike Weaver
1x Walking Ballista
1x Yawgmoth, Thran Physician

Planeswalker (2)
2x Vivien, Champion of the Wilds

Sorcery (4)
4x Green Sun's Zenith

Enchantment (1)
1x Sylvan Library

Artifact (4)
4x Aether Vial

Land (19)
2x Bayou
1x Dryad Arbor
2x Forest
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Karakas
1x Marsh Flats
1x Nurturing Peatland
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath

Sideboard (15)
2x Carpet of Flowers
2x Choke
1x Collector Ouphe
2x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Faerie Macabre
1x Kambal, Consul of Allocation
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Sanctum Prelate

Beerpirat

10-02-2019, 12:28 PM

Hi,
I am an old ATS player from the beginning. I think it was 2003/2004/2005 i am not sure, played it a lot with great fun.

The deck here is interesting and i am happy that i find it. Because discord is not mines i hope somebody helps me here.
At the moment is it hard to find an good answer to w6 and i think about returning to blue like stiller suggested it at the beginning of the thread.

Thanks for help.

pettdan

10-03-2019, 05:00 AM

Hey Beerpirat! Sweet to hear! Very nice to have you writing here too! I love it when people start joining in the discussion. I've been thinking a lot about the W6 menace that changed how we need to build the deck, probably, or at least that's the approach I'm taking.. You'll find some discussion in the Discord. I just recently started testing... When I get up to it, if ever, I'll wrote a longer discussion here.

You should find the Discord link here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32196-Discord-Servers
Let me know if it doesn't work!

Btw, what's ATS?

sco0ter

10-03-2019, 05:41 AM

Btw, what's ATS?

Angry Tradewind Survival.

Angry = Anger to give Tradewind haste.

Fun toolbox control deck.

Beerpirat

10-03-2019, 06:32 AM

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?2616-Deck-ATS-(Angry-Tradewind-Survival)-Former-DTB

I find an old thread here.
Indeed angry tradewind survival.

I will try the link.

pettdan

10-03-2019, 04:49 PM

Very interesting, will add to the deck's history. :) Not as old as the Tradewind Rider/Survival standard decks but very nice still.

pettdan

10-26-2019, 11:33 AM

Ooh, MOst undefeated on the lgl legacy tournament round 3: http://www.twitch.tv/leavingalegacy

nimkee

11-19-2019, 09:41 AM

How is the deck looking now that Wrenn is banned? I'm psyched to give it another go. How are people dealing with Depths?

pettdan

11-19-2019, 05:09 PM

How is the deck looking now that Wrenn is banned? I'm psyched to give it another go. How are people dealing with Depths?

It is a bit early to say how the meta shapes out, which influences deckbuilding a lot here, but basically back to what it was before W6 made us, some of us, add giver of runes, paradise druid, and cut down on mana dorks.. Maybe paradise druid is still worth it, not sure, hitting pws is nice, and I could see a giver or two in the deck..

Do join the Discord, I think there's a link in the discord thread. Also, what version are you playing?

nimkee

11-20-2019, 08:25 AM

I was on an old Atraxa build from 2018, no combo or anything too fancy.

I've yet to use discord though this might push me to do so. How do you do against UW blade with b2b?

It is a bit early to say how the meta shapes out, which influences deckbuilding a lot here, but basically back to what it was before W6 made us, some of us, add giver of runes, paradise druid, and cut down on mana dorks.. Maybe paradise druid is still worth it, not sure, hitting pws is nice, and I could see a giver or two in the deck..

Do join the Discord, I think there's a link in the discord thread. Also, what version are you playing?

pettdan

11-20-2019, 09:47 AM

I was on an old Atraxa build from 2018, no combo or anything too fancy.

I've yet to use discord though this might push me to do so. How do you do against UW blade with b2b?

Perfect, come join! Alwaysneed more people discussing and sharing ideas.. Anyway here works too..

Uw blade is always tough I feel, but I think decent.. Plague engineer does answer tnn which is nice. I recently met them with an updated build, lost.. I ran 3 prelates and a kambal maindeck.. T3 prelate resolved and.. Lets see, might as well paste the whole tournament report from the discord, was intending to do that.. Ended up winning 2-0 vs stoneblade but was so close to ruining it with a misplay last minute.. Opponent actually commented on not boarding into b2b's and how that was probably a mistake,iirc.

From Oct 30:
Had a 2-1-1 at the locals today. Lost vs 4c control with w6, oko and jace, he was down at 1 life in the final game and eeked it out after a very slow start. Funny that I worked hard to improve the matchup, or well actually rather the RUG matchup amd uw.. Need to consider this deck now too, heard about it but didn't play against it before, it was played by two players who both 4-0d the event today. Then I won 2-0 vs UW Stoneblade control, really tight and almost drew by a late misplay, getting deputy into play taking his palace jailer which would allow him to stp it and get another jailer trigger and monarch back.. Realized last second and went for my own jailer instead. Drew with DnT in super tight games. He had a lot of revokers turning of mothers and givers, a lot of flickerwisp for card advantage beaters and multiple jailers.
And also beat 4c w6 cascade (bloodbraids, shardless, coatl, strix, hymn, lily, decays etc)
3 prelates, kambal, and 5 runes felt good. Not sure about deputies and plaguecrafter
2 plague engineers were good.
Jailer was good..

Vickas

02-17-2020, 05:54 AM

After a year playing other decks I'm back with MOST. This time I want some challange... So I want to try playing without White and add more Red.

This is the first list I'm gonna try. Just missing a few cards. But I really want to hear any ideas of what kind of cards can replace the white.
Need some disruption like Thalia and Prelate and protection like Mother of runes.

Key cards are Lazav, the Multifarious, Volrath's Shapeshifter, Necrotic Ooze, Dimir Doppelganger. These guys can use most creatures in the graveyard so
cards countered or destroyed are still usable.

Creature (29)
1x Baleful Strix
1x Big Game Hunter
4x Birds of Paradise
1x Dimir Doppelganger Keranos and Sheoldred are main targets. Can target opponents graveyard!
4x Fauna Shaman
1x Glen Elendra Archmage
1x Grenzo, Dungeon Warden + Nissa, Scry a creature to the bottom and use Grenzo to put it in play.
2x Imperial Recruiter
1x Keranos, God of Storms
1x Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger
2x Lazav, the Multifarious
1x Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1x Lotleth Troll
1x Magus of the Moon
1x Necrotic Ooze
1x Phyrexian Dreadnought
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Sheoldred, Whispering One
1x Volrath's Shapeshifter
1x Dryad Arbor

16 Lands Nothing special except for 1x Volrath's Stronghold

Planeswalker
2x Nissa, Steward of Elements
Sorcery
1x Eldritch Evolution Sometimes good sometimes bad. Think sacrificing Recruiter or Reclamation Sage to find Keranos or Necrotic Ooze.
2x Green Sun's Zenith
Instant
2x Abrupt Decay
Enchantment
4x Standstill Not sure how this will play but with Vial, Nissa, Grenzo I don't really need to play any spells.
Artifact
4x Aether Vial

Sideboard
2x Echoing Truth Not sure what to sidebord against Dark Deapth decks but Echoing Truth works and can be used against, Field of the dead otehr tokens.
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite This with Volraths Shapeshifter are an old favorite
2x Flusterstorm
2x Kolaghan's Command
4x Leyline of the Void
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Thoughtseize

A fun Combos i would like to try when I get stable list: Necrotic Ooze+Minion of Leshrac+Torchling.
Destroys land, untap and can protect itself!

I really like crazy combos and interactions so post any ideas you guys think can be cool to tryout!

pettdan

02-17-2020, 07:14 AM

I don't see standstill being very useful, too easily backfires and you lack good stuff to draw into. Like fow. But, only testing can say for sure.

Here's the latest non-white list I made, only one white card, sacred guide for thassa's oracle combo. Not tested.. I built another list yesterday, may test that..

Dryad Arbor 1
Bayou 2
Forest 1
Island 1
Misty Rainforest 3
Savannah 1
Swamp 1
Taiga 1
Tropical Island 2
Underground Sea 1
Verdant Catacombs 3
Sacred Guide 1
Brainstorm 4
Birds of Paradise 3
Sylvan Safekeeper 0
Green Sun's Zenith 1
Aether Vial 4
Spellstutter Sprite 3
Thassa's Oracle 1
Kitesail Freebooter 3
Fauna Shaman 1
Scavenging Ooze 1
Scryb Ranger 1
Once Upon a Time 1
Baleful Strix 3
Vendilion Clique 1
Plague Engineer 1
Imperial Recruiter 3
Reclamation Sage 1
Edric, Spymaster of Trest 1
Leovold, Emissary of Trest 1
Oko, Thief of Crowns 2
Glen Elendra Archmage 0
Yawgmoth, Thran Physician 1
Shaman of the Great Hunt 0
Meren of Clan Nel Toth 1
Prime Speaker Vannifar 1
Force of Will 3

Right now I just want to play Uro and Karakas. Would be really nice to use Klothys too.

pettdan

03-22-2020, 07:12 AM

The primer is full, again. Instead of going through it I'll move sections to new messages and provide a link in the primer. Below is the 6-12 months old matchup guide, I'll update it at some point, it's still fairly correct.

Matchups

Below we'll have a look at some common matchups and comment briefly on how you can expect the matchups to play out and what cards you should be looking for and boarding in/out.

• Miracles

Comment: Try to pressure them! Aether Vial helps with that, not least pressuring their Jaces. Always expect Terminus!
Your MVP's: Aether Vial, Gaddock Teeg, Glen Elendra Archmage, Mother of Runes, True-Name Nemesis, Invasive Surgery, Winter Orb, Vendilion Clique

• Grixis Control

Comment: They play so much removal and discard that it's hard for you to establish control, then they follow up with planeswalkers that you have trouble coming through for. If you manage to get an active Mother, that's very valuable. Vial tends to be eaten by a Kolaghan's Command so you can't really expect vial tricks. Both Glen Elendra and Shalai can provide some welcome protection, TNN can attack them but usually they have some sweepers that end up taking it along with your other 1 toughness creatures. A late Meren can turn the game around if they can't interact with it. Cataclysm from the board messes with their mana and clears their planeswalkers.
Your MVP's: Meren of Clan Nel Toth, Glen Elendra Archmage, Shalai, Voice of Many, Leovold, Emissary of Trest, Sylvan Library, Cataclysm, Bitterblossom, Mother of Runes

• Grixis Delver

Comment: Hopefully you can go Vial into Mother and Scryb Ranger to stabilize the battlefield, then get a Pontiff to sweep their board (if they have Pyromancer and/or TNN), a lifelinker if you have it or just Meren to build up an overwhelming board. Of course Glenn Elendra can stop Lightning Bolts from dealing the last damage and Leovold to stop their cantrips.
Your MVP's: Mother of Runes, Atraxa, Umezawa's Jitte, Orzhov Pontiff (if they have TNN, probably no Pyromancer), Swords to Plowshares, Abrupt Decay

• RUG Delver

Comment: Like for Grixis Delver but your mana base will be exposed, Carpet of Flowers is very valuable here. They usually don't play a lot of removal so you can probably establish board control with Mother, but Bolt+Stifle+Wasteland can make it so you never establish any board in these games. Watch out for Rough // Tumble out of the board as well as Forked Bolt.
Your MVP's: Mother of Runes, Atraxa, Aether Vial, Scryb Ranger, Umezawa's Jitte, Swords to Plowshares, Abrupt Decay, Carpet of Flowers

• Death's Shadow

Comment: Similar to the delver decks above but they tend to be able to produce a faster clock, making your removal like StP and Decay slightly more valuable, I think.
Your MVP's: Mother of Runes, Merieke ri Berit, Umezawa's Jitte, Abrupt Decay, Swords to Plowshares, Peacekeeper

• Eldrazi

Comment: You can easily get run over by them, try to find a lifegainer, removal or Meren to keep building a better boardstate.
Your MVP's: Atraxa, Umezawa's Jitte, Peacekeeper, Swords to Plowshares, Merieke ri Berit, Meren of Clan Nel Toth, True-Name Nemesis, Glissa, the Traitor

• Big Eldrazi

Comment: It's very hard to beat them before they beat you, this is one of the matchups in which a combo element in your deck will be very beneficial. Otherwise try to interact with their lands and hand.
Your MVP's: Magus of the Moon, Winter Orb, Vendilion Clique, Fulminator Mage, Gaddock Teeg

• Death and Taxes

Comment: This is a good matchup, you have reliable artifact removal that you can easily tutor for and even reuse every turn with Meren, you also have tutorable Pontiff to basically clear their board. You also have Scryb Ranger to win any Mother of Rune battle.
Your MVP's: Orzhov Pontiff, Qasali Pridemage, Knight of the Autumn, Aether Vial, Mother of Runes, Scryb Ranger, Umezawa's Jitte, Abrupt Decay

• Storm-based combo (ANT, TES)

Comment: If they don't win by t2 you have pretty good chances of landing a hatebear. When sideboarding you try to bring in interaction for the first two turns and board out all cards that are mostly relevant for the attack step and vs creatures.
Your MVP's: Gaddock Teeg, Sanctum Prelate, Meddling Mage, Leovold, Emissary of Trest, Thoughtseize, Invasive Surgery, Force of Will, Vendilion Clique, Kambal, Consul of Allocation

• Show and Tell-based decks

Comment: A combination of hatebears and creatures that let you steal the opponent's creatures give you a pretty good matchups. They don't interact well with Fauna Shaman once resolved (Vial and GSZ make resolving a copy easier, of course), so if they didn't win by turn 3-4 you're in a good spot to build up a board and hand with answers to Show and Tell (Glenn Elendra Archmage, Sanctum Prelate, Gilded Drake) and Omniscience (Qasali Pridemage or Knight of the Autumn). Sneak Attack can be hard to interact with once in play (Gaddock helps), Phyrexian Revoker is great if you have it. Aether Vial lets you respond to what the opponent during their mainphase and once you reach EoT be proactive (Gaddock, Glenn Elendra).
Your MVP's: Sanctum Prelate, Meddling Mage, Glen Elendra Archmage, Gilded Drake, Peacekeeper, Aether Vial, Fauna Shaman, Invasive Surgery, Thoughtseize, Force of Will, Vendilion Clique, Gaddock Teeg

• Punishing Loam

Comment: Punishing Loam can be difficult to interact with, unless you get an active Mother of Runes first. Chalice can slow you down, it is not generally a big problem but coupled with Toxic Deluge, Punishing Fire and recursive mana denial (Loam or KotR + Wasteland) it can keep you from doing anything meaningful. Also an unanswered Dark Confidant can draw them into their best tools.
Your MVP's: Mother of Runes, Sanctum Prelate Leovold, Emissary of Trest, Scavenging Ooze, Magus of the Moon, Abrupt Decay, Swords to Plowshares

• Lands

Comment: This is a tough matchups, sometimes they lock you down with mana denial coupled with a Tabernacle, sometimes Punishing Fire gets all your creatures. Sometimes you deploy a board they can't interact with. Sometimes you get to steal their Marit Lage token and beat them with it.
Your MVP's: Aether Vial, Sanctum Prelate, Gilded Drake, Mother of Runes, Leovold, Emissary of Trest, Scryb Ranger, Winter Orb, Vendilion Clique, True-Name Nemesis

• Reanimator (BR, UB)

Comment:
Your MVP's: Leyline of the Void, Faerie Maccabre, Scavenging Ooze, Gilded Drake, Merieke ri Berit, Invasive Surgery, Thoughtseize, Force of Will

• Elves

Comment:
Your MVP's: Umezawa's Jitte, Orzhov Pontiff, Gaddock Teeg, Leovold, Emissary of Trest, Peacekeeper, Invasive Surgery, Linvala, Keeper of Silence

• Goblins

Comment: This can be tough, try to establish board control and watch out for Goblin Sharpshooters (try to keep StP for it) especially when they have a goblin providing haste in play. Also their Goblin Thrashmaster may keep you low on Aether Vials and Jitte.
Your MVP's: Umezawa's Jitte, Orzhov Pontiff, Izzet Staticaster, Abrupt Decay, Swords to Plowshares, Peacekeeper, Engineered Plague (sb), Linvala, Keeper of Silence (sb)

• Infect

Comment: They are faster than you, if you can land an early Peacekeeper that gives you pretty good control of the game. You can try to set up Mother and a flyer for blocking, Pontiff is great and answers the unblockable creature, Leovold stops cantrips. Spot removal help immensely and if you survive a couple of turns getting counters on a Jitte likely wins the game. Glen Elendra can also protect you from pump spells if you live that long. Board into fast interaction.
Your MVP's: Peacekeeper, Umezawa's Jitte, Orzhov Pontiff, Swords to Plowshares, Abrupt Decay, Thoughtseize

pettdan

03-22-2020, 07:48 AM

I've updated the primer a bit, creating an alternative core version with Soulherder as well as adding a couple of relevant printings from the past 12 months: Once upon a Time, Plague Engineer, Oko, Uro, Kroxa, Collector Ouphe. Edit: and Heliod, Lavinia, Klothys

Due to the Corona-virus outbreak I've bought the deck online, making it a budget version (about 140-150 tix). Which can actually drive innovation, when there are so many options for deck-building it can be good to be forced to pick a new path sometimes. Online, Wooded Foothills are the cheapest fetches after Windswept Heath and so this encouraged me to consider a more red version. Which is not a new thing, I've done it before. But also, the addition of Soulherder made me consider a WURG version, rather than UBRG which me and others have run recently, and WURG seems pretty ok. I went from a more heavy red splash in the fair version using Pia and Kiran Nalaar or Huntmaster of the Fells which are both excellent with Soulherder - to a ligher red splash with a combo finish. There are a few black cards too. After playing the deck for a couple of nights in the playtesting room of MTGO I decided to try adding Shapeshifter to get a bit less consistency but a bit more power. Volrath's Shapeshifter with Elesh Norn or Sheoldred, Whispering One both promise to end a game quickly. I added a little section for VS to the primer, it deserves to be expanded on so if someone wants to write a section on that, feel very welcome to do so! I added Full English Breakfast to the inspirational deck lists section of the primer, btw. That deck has a devoted following and works well in a MOST shell, I haven't checked the thread yet and I was on a MtG-hiatus during that period so I'm not very familiar with it.

Esper Vial has been a very succesful deck online, played by mostly one player (JTL005) and it's very similar to MOST. It's basically cutting the green tutor base and green creatures for FoW, Wasteland and StP, similar to some old-style MOST-versions iirc (typically players use either fows or stps for interaction because playing both and in addition brainstorm doesn't leave much room for the creatures and tutors, but this approach seems to merit further testing). Also due to this it's running Recruiter over Fauna Shaman, similar in this aspect to the direction I've taken my list for the past 6-12 months. I started by trying a single Recruiter iirc but when I saw Cermaks' lists that were a bit closer to DnT I also started increasing the amount of Recruiters. Recruiter doesn't synergize as well with Meren but it worked playing both at the same time, the Recruiter tutorable creatures and GSZ with Meren and Fauna Shaman that act as two parallell and largely overlapping sets of toolbox-creatures. However, Soulherder is a similar value engine to Meren but works better with Recruiter, doesn't use the graveyard, costs less, isn't a legend, grows into a game-ending threat, generates value more easily because you don't depend on Vial to get the value immediately, etc etc. Both cards can be played in the deck at the same time but Soulherder is very strong and works well in multiples. Soulherder makes you focus on etb effects as opposed to tapping effects that were more common with Fauna Shaman, which itself is a tap effect. So. To put it short, Soulherder offers a lot of value and utility and I think every version should try at least a copy, replacing at least one Fauna Shaman with a Recruiter (Imperial or -of the Guard).

Similarly Once upon a Time has offered much more consistent opening hands, helping us find the first two lands, finding fetch lands for the splash colors and finding a turn one play in mana dorks or mother. It competes with GSZ for space though. Anyway, you can check the updated core section of the primer if you want to where I suggest an updated core version.

Also, if anyone is interested in watching me stream the deck and discuss plays and card choices then you can join me: http://www.twitch.tv/pettdan_
A warning though, it's just the MTGO practice room, I'm very bad at playing and talking so I do things like attacking into a Mishra's Factory but it's quite fun anyway. The two streams up are vs Reanimator, a fairly new player, and Eldrazi where I couldn't answer t1 Chalice in 2 games. Eldrazi can be tough, certainly. If anyone has a good suggestion for how to watch stream chat while streaming MTGO, let me know. As far as I understand you basically have to use a second monitor or cell phone.

Upd: I just managed to log in to my old account so I'll try to use this account in the future: http://www.twitch.tv/pettdan

pettdan

03-27-2020, 05:12 AM

Here's the list I'm testing right now (on a budget). Considering cutting black or red again. It hurts when you draw both splash color lands and no other, naturally, though it doesn't happen that often.. Also considering adding a fourth ouat because it helps avoid such situations. Or another brainstorm. Considering cutting loyal retainers since it just never was useful yet.

Black would be easy to cut here, I like the shriekmaw in the sb but meren could be another soulherder or something to support the shapeshifters, Merieke could be some red threat for example. I consider adding another magus, seems like a good way to fight uro and bug. I also wonder if there's something I can play to have a better chance vs oko.. Like adding a giver of runes, revoker which I don't like a lot or some haste threat.. Maybe it's time for shaman of the great hunt.

https://i.imgur.com/nRuqnyr_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

https://imgur.com/a/6dksvyb

https://i.imgur.com/ye7WP09_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

I recorded a game yesterday. Still figuring out details but I think g3 could be nice to watch to see what shapeshifter can do. https://www.twitch.tv/pettdan

pettdan

03-28-2020, 11:12 AM

I recorded a little last night, chatting with Vickas about plays. We learned that next time we need to discuss less when playing games since it took a long time to do a single play.

Edit: all links removed from this message as they only stay up for two weeks on Twitch.

Update

I updated list many times in the last week, latest change is cutting a Brainstorm (down to 2), adding a OuaT (up to 4), adding a Prelate (up to 2) and cutting.. Something.

pettdan

04-18-2020, 11:22 AM

I've been testing Volrath's Shapeshifter lately.. Very fun and powerful while also offering utility. Often very surprising utility. It has happened more than once that I get a surprise meddling mage or sanctum prelate when it enters the battlefield.. That I didn't notice beforehand.

I'm currently trying to find some more cards that work well with it and that are feasible to hardcast or vial in, so at 4-5-6 mana. I'll make a list here, it's actually much easier to revisit than my notepad files due to the card links.

Utility:
Magus of the Moon
Merieke ri Berit
Patron Wizard
Vengeful Pharaoh
Street wraith
Galecaster Colossus
Kogla, the Titan Ape

Board presence:
Brokkos, Apex of Forever
Phyrexian Obliterator
Archetype of Endurance
Wurmcoil Engine
Titania, Protector of Argoth
Reality Smasher
Stonehewer Giant
Spiritmonger
Yidaro, Wandering Monster

Hatebear effect vs combo and control mostly:
Chancellor of the Annex
Ruric Thar
Sire of Insanity

Value:
Niv-mizzet, Parun
Sire of Stagnation
Sun Titan

I'm also looking at Recurring Nightmare (works very well with VS), here are a few cards that are good with it, as a reminder:
Recruiter of the Guard
Knight of Autumn
Palace Jailer
Venser, Shaper Savant
Shriekmaw
Titania, Protector of argoth
Wurmcoil Engine

Edited:
By the way, I have reported two bugs on MTGO related to using Volrath's Shapeshifter. If you log in and vote for these that'd be nice.. I hope this links work for you.

https://feedback.wizards.com/forums/926092-mtgo-issues/suggestions/40206925-volrath-s-shapeshifter-becomes-invisible-when-chan

https://feedback.wizards.com/forums/926092-mtgo-issues/suggestions/40055002-volrath-s-shapeshifter-coming-into-play-as-a-meddl

pettdan

05-02-2020, 01:11 PM

I've been testing a couple of different builds recently. Polukranos, Unchained is actually working very well so far.. It has a lot of sweet synergy with the deck. Pretty good value off of a recruiter, but can also be GSZed for. Use Soulherder to reset its counters every turn, letting you hit with a 6/6 and shoot down a creature or two every turn. Bounce it with Karakas to reset it and protect it vs StP. It basically ignores Coatl and Strix. Use Meren to recur it. Also, you can often escape it. Also, it's probably great vs Oko since it becomes a super elk.

Anyway, here's an enchantment list I tested briefly. The versions I've tried have been working surprisingly well vs Lurrus Delver, but it's rather limited testing and not league games so it doesn't say much.

https://i.ibb.co/WH0z78Z/2020-05-02-MOST-Enchantments-v1-0.png

Some comments about the list:
- This list has Jegantha as companion, or else I'd try to add Arasta of the Endless Web or Archon of Sun's Grace to the maindeck. Also, because of Jegantha I had to cut True-Name Nemesis and Mirran Crusader. Jegantha has been ok. Sometimes there's an opposing Karakas in play and I don't have Vial to beat Karakas, other times it comes in and does work. Not sure if it's worth it yet.
- Kunoros has some dissynergy with Recurring Nightmare, allthough I think you can just sacrifice it to RN to ignore that hopefully, and with Meren, but I'm testing it for now.
- The manabase is suboptimal, the fetches should be Misty Rainforests.

Enchantment package:
2 Oath of Nissa
2 Sylvan Library
2 Banishing Light
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Recurring Nightmare
2 Setessan Champion
1 Doomwake Giant

I've been thinking Setessan Champion has some serious power since it was spoiled. I think a Sylvan Plug shell would be best (cantripping Chokes anyone?), with the direction of that list depending of course on where the meta is currently at (such as choke or not, probably not right now, idk). Another card I've been thinking a lot about during the Oko reign is Recurring Nightmare, it just ignores Oko and grinds out a lot of value. I'd love to play it with a creature that destroys planeswalkers, but they are too expensive. And with Setessan Champion, RN looks like a pretty ridiculous card advantage and value engine. I really like it with Volrath's Shapeshifter, but due to MTGO bugs I can't play that card anymore.

Oath of Nissa fizzled once already, so I'm not sure if it's playable here. The enchantment theme rarely came together perfectly, but it was still pretty good, so I'd say it's still testable. Banishing Light might be better as Detention Sphere, but due budgeting I'm sticking with the cheaper option (that I was given for free with my account). Eidolon of Rhetoric seems like a decent hatebear and the synergy with the Setessan Champions makes it seem maindeckable to me but I'm not sure about that.

I'm trying to figure out which enchantments can be added to make this shell stronger. Here's a list of other cards I'm considering but I'm still looking for other options:

Serra's Sanctum
Destiny Spinner
Sterling Grove
Sacred Mesa
Riptide Chimera
Food Chain
Klothys, God of Destiny
Archon of Sun's Grace
Aluren
Kestia, the Cultivator
Chromanticore

Just to discuss one card, Chromanticore is pretty sweet, being playable with Jegantha, Vial, GSZ or just a bop and some lands in play its a quite possible addition. Coming in as a cantrip with a champion in play, being a threat that can be protected by Karakas is sweet vs control decks (with the downside of Karakas being superpopular in the format), bestowing a creature makes it a real Oko beater (bestowed creature becomes a super-elk), and being a legend means you can Karakas-bounce it to reset the elk status (if opponent elks the Chromanticore). Also, it seems like a real gamewinner vs Delver decks. Can even Karakas+Vial bounce it with a champion in play to draw extra cards. Only missing a Volrath's Shapeshifter to cheat it into play (discard so the shapeshifter is copying it) or just discarding it with Shapeshifter or Fauna Shaman so Recurring Nightmare can bring it back indefinitely.

pettdan

05-13-2020, 02:45 PM

Tested a little bit with Painter in a MOST list. Mostly because I want to run maindeck blasts. It's a bit clunky as it is, manabase is not optimal (Wooded Foothills can't find Tundra). Too few artifacts. I think it needs -1 Welder, -1 Engineer, +2 value stuff. If I wanted to spend more tix on it I'd run Imperial Recruiter over the white one. At that point, might as well cut out more white and add more Strixes. May try that if I acquire those cards later.

Anyway, I'll just drop it here for now. Maybe someone wishes to test something similar at some point in the future.

https://i.imgur.com/j3ws6RK.png

The sideboard has juicy Earwig Squad, and the rest is the usual stuff.

pettdan

07-19-2023, 01:03 PM

I'm working on updating the primer now, just posting to inform anyone interested. Unforunately the notes I was taking in my phone during the last three years or so, on how to update the primer, was lost as my phone crashed so it will not be as extensively updated as would otherwise have been the case.

Since a few months I'm looking at WURG because I think Fury is a very high quality card in this type of deck. You play Yorion since it provides great card advantage and grinding power, and as your vial hits 5 it's really nice to have access to flash Fury, not to mention flickering it with Yorion for extra triggers.

FTW

07-19-2023, 07:34 PM

pettdan

07-30-2023, 04:41 PM

Why Fury instead of Solitude? Does the case of killing multiple small creatures come up more often? Solitude can pitch Yorion, so you can always have a white card for it, while Fury might not have a red card.

I'm actually playing both but I think the ability to sweep the board and also hit planeswalkers is very valuable, and a lategame 3/3 double striker is also a bit more useful on the battlefield, probably.
But I have a couple of Swords to Plowshares and also up to 1-2 Solitude in and out of lists as white count is the lowest in my last version.

I'm mostly theorycrafting now with a couple of games every now and then. I've felt like Fury is probably more relevant, but I'm not sure that's a correct assessment.
- Against control decks, it helps you clear potential blockers and ping off planeswalkers. Otoh, Solitude answering a potential Uro is also useful, but in general Fury seems more useful in this type of matchup.
- Fury can answer early Delver and DRC's and Bowmasters, while Solitude answers Murktide Regent which Fury doesn't. I expect aggressive decks to be playing Orcish Bowmasters, often enough, and Fury seems like it has an advantage in such a metagame, but otoh it could be that the presence of Bowmasters in the meta makes the creatures that Fury shines against less played.
- Against Painter, which I think is still reasonably well positioned, I imagine Fury answering Welders and Goblin Engineers as well as potentially Painter, is pretty great. While Solitude offers instant speed removal.
- Against Reanimator and Show and Tell variants, the large-creature-based combo-decks, Solitude seems better.
- Against Elves, DnT and Cephalid Breakfast, Fury seems better.
- Against Turbo Forge, which has been getting a boost with The One Ring, and some extra talk, Fury answering an early Karn tGC could be very useful, while Solitude does nothing.

Overall, my feeling is that Fury is a bit more impactful. Could be wrong, but that's what I'm building with.

Edit: just returning to the post, to conclude I think that when Bowmaster is the format defining card, then Fury is better positioned as it's a clean answer giving you a strategic edge in such a matchup. If for example Emrakul, Marit Lage or Death's Shadow are very popular in the metagame, considered tier 1 decks, then the value of Solitude increases. However, as briefly implied, you can play Fury with Swords to plowshares in your maindeck (in e.g. a WURG version heavy on red) but if you go for Solitude over Fury, requiring dedicating the list to white which tends to reduce the amount of red cards, then it's harder to find a maindeckable or even sideboardable replacement for Fury. Plague Engineer perhaps comes closest to Fury in a list with a low red count, or Orcish Bowmasters (meaning you need to splash black, which is a common choice here). Neither Plague Engineer nor Bowmasters require a heavy dedication to black cards in your list, so they are more easy than Fury to include.

I notice I didn't adress your comment about Yorion offering reliable pitching for Solitude. It is a very valid consideration, thank you, but the way I'm thinking now is that I want to start building a list by deciding on which the important inclusions are. So going for strategic aspects relative to the metagame over synergy. The advantage you mention does perhaps make Solitude more attractive in an unknown metagame. On the other hand, red does bring some free insulation to blood moon, it offers a maindeckable Magus of the Moon which can potentially win a few games here and there, it offers Imperial Recruiter finding different pieces than Recruiter of the Guard. There are so many factors.

pettdan

07-30-2023, 04:54 PM

One of the challenges for me in trying to tie alist together is getting enough card-count for the colors needed for Force of Will, Force of Negation, Endurance, Fury and Solitude. Some of the cards I'm considering for this are Lagrella, the Magpie (one of my favourite MOST/Xc Vial cards lately), Minsc & Boo, Timeless Heroes (already a given), Icefang Coatl (in the list but reduced due to Orcish Bowmasters, not sure how many copies to play, if any), Flame of Anor with Snapcaster Mage/Meddling Mage/other wizards, Omnath, Locus of Creation. Once Upon a Time potenially helps with finding the right colors on t0, so that's very nice.

pettdan

08-13-2023, 04:25 PM

Here are some deckbuilding decisions I'm weighing against each other right now. It's a bit quickly written so I'll probably return to edit the list. It's hard to fit all thoughts here.

A couple of months back I decided it was time to splash red for Fury, Minsc & Boo, Timeless Heroes, Magus of the Moon and red blasts so I cut black. I've splashed for Magus and blasts before, it's been a fairly standard 5th color although I try to avoid that since a few years. And cutting Birds of Paradise has made it more difficult, too. Anyway, with Bowmasters around, the question is more open as to which should be the 4th or even 3rd color as I've started to scale down on white cards.

Fury is a powerful free to cast board wipe that does interact with planeswalkers, and having access to this in a list is a natural advantage. And once Vial gets to 5 counters, where you want it anyway due to Yorion, you have a very powerful eot etb effect, untapping and attack for 6 damage. And if you can flicker it with Yorion that's also quite good. If playing ephemerate or reanimation effects, it's also a very potent target. Flickering it with Lagrella is pretty nice, with the 2 +1/+1 counters it hits for 10 damage. Fable of the Mirror-Breaker is another potentially good red inclusion. All modes are relevant, in basically all decks, but for a 4-color deck, the mana fixing is very valuable, the low amoung of cantrips we usually run does make the filtering really good, and finally the copy effect is perfect for this type of deck that runs loads of creatures with etb-effects.

I've been drawn to a Bant-base for lists because green offers Endurance, Abundant Growth, Once Upon a Time and Lagrella (won't go into blue and white here or this would turn into a primer). Endurance is a FoW that interacts with both graveyard based combo, control (Uro from the blue control decks or Life from the Loam from Lands-decks) and aggressive decks (blocking Delver, DRC) while potentially providing card advantage in fair matchups as a surprise blocker opposite to FoW which typicall provides card disadvantage. Abundant Growth is basically an Arcum's Astrolabe for green-based decks, which does help with the 4-color builds I usually like, while also making Yorion better by turning it into a cantrip. Once Upon a Time is a pretty nice way to find t0 interaction for graveyard-based combo (finding Endurance, potentially Solitude) which helps avoiding mulligans by finding lands when needed and also helping enabling a 4-color-manabase, and if you're running flash spells like Icefang Coatl, Endurance, Force of Negation/Will and maybe even Snapcaster mage, OuaT is easy to cast at eot if you didn't need to use the others. Lagrella, the Magpie has been very good but I've only been playing test games so it's a bit unreliable. Lagrella deserves her own section in the primer, but to put it short, Esper Vial has been a pretty good deck for a few years and it's been focusing on bouncing/flickering permanents recently, and Lagrella flickers two permanents at a time which is huge, bounces with Karakas, boosts your creature, pitches to Forces, Endurance and Solitude and can be found with GSZ. However it can't be tutored with Recruiter of the Guard. Typically I've run 1-2 GSZ and 1 Spellseeker to find GSZ, Recruiter can then find Spellseeker for GSZ if needed.

Green furthermore has sideboard options in Carpet of Flowers, basically extra vials in blue matchups, and Collector Ouphe is a pretty powerful hatebear. Haywire Mite is a valuable inclusion for The One Ring and Kaldra Compleat. There are more options but these above are perhaps the more important ones.

Which color splashes to run (in addition to WUG or perhaps even competing with them)?

• Black and red splash?
Orcish Bowmasters + Fury, which means I'd need to cut blue or white, and I'm not sure which is better. I did start building WUBR yesterday and it seems ok too, so cutting green is also a consideration.

• Black or red splash?
Orcish Bowmasters (WUBG) or Fury (WUGR), I'm experimenting with different lists. Fable of the Mirror-Breaker is another potential red inclusion.

• Red splash, with green:
Punshing Fire (answers Bowmasters for free, immune to Scam/Grief because they can't discard the Grove and if they discard the Fire you can potentially get it back), meaning I probably play WUGR. Also enables Lagrella + Omnath (see comment below) and Flame of Anor (comment below). Imperial Recruiter can be played over Recruiter of the Guard, which has the advantage of letting you tutor for Lagrella but prevents finding Solitude. I've typically tried building with 3 Imperials and 1 RotG. Also Minsc & Boo, Timeless Heros.

Deck building decisions
• 4 Gilded Drakes + bounce/flicker effects (Lagrella, Charming Prince, Barrin etc). This combination of cards takes up quite a number of card slots, depending on how many bounce effects you want to run. Gilded Drake can do a good job of stealing Bowmasters, the Bowmaster effect doesn't interact with it, and works great in a meta full of large creatures like Murktide Regent and Death's Shadow. I'm not sure if there are enough large creatures around, so I haven't fully gone for this yet. Sometimes I put 1-2 Drakes in the main and sideboard, different configurations, and try to play a few extra bounce and flicker effects.

• Snapcaster Mage + Flame of Anor, trying to maximize the amount of wizards being played

• I have started pulling down on the amount of Icefang Coatls and Baleful Strixes which doesn't feel great and so I'm considering alternative card advantage that is less vulnerable to Bowmasters:
- Flame of Anor perhaps, even though it's also card draw which is vulnerable to opposing Bowmasters, it does potentially answer Bowmaster and the card advantage it can provide together with Snapcaster Mage seems quite potent.
- Shaman of the Great Hunt is one of my favourite cards from around 2016-2018 iirc and I'm thinking of including it again, but an issue I come upon is that it needs the white recruiter to find it while white and red tend to compete for card slots to enable pitching to Fury or Solitude in my lists. We'll see. It's good against Bowmasters, I believe, because it has 2 toughness and boosts your entire team while potentailly drawing cards if/when needed. The haste is also good against the initiative effect and planeswalkers.
- Barrin Tolarian Archmage is a potential card advantage engine with Karakas, so this seems like a good replacement as it already is a very useful card in the deck and pretty consistently a 1 of in deck lists to recruiter for. However, the three-mana slot is usually very occupied.
- Stoneforge Mystic did gain a lot of attraction with Bowmasters' entry into the format, and I was already usually playing it, but adding Furys to my lists has put a lot of color requirements on the deck building so I don't seem to be able to afford the equipment package.
- Omnath, Locus of Creation is great for pitching to FoW, FoN, Fury and Solitude. Also Force of Vigor if I was playing it, which is a consideration although I never quite wanted to. It's a card drawing spell that perfectly replaces Coatl and Strix in a Bowmaster meta, except for the mana cost of course. But allowing pitching of spells does compensate a bit. Also it can be Karakas-bounced, which the other two can't.
- Samwise the Stouthearted enables graveyard recursion. Easiest use is perhaps at the end of turn2 after you fetch, ensuring a third land drop. Similarly it's great with Wasteland. The ring tempting effect makes one of your creatures legendary so you can bounce it with Karakas for additional value, and you can always bounce Samwise to make it a card advantage engine. He's also good with the pitch elementals, letting you bring them back so you actually only spend one card to get the pitch elementals etb effect. This card deserves a small section in the primer.

• I loved playing Grief + Animate Dead/Ephemerate a few months back but I'm budget conscious on MTGO, trying to preserve the collection value, and sold them when they spiked so I'm priced out of them for the time being. There are so many options anyway, it seems fine.

• Spellseeker + Ephemerate + Eternal Witness. This was a given combination for me the last couple of months but adding Fury and the existence of Bowmaster did make me cut Witness. May come back. Also, there's now Samwise the Stouthearted for similar, but different, graveyard recursion. He only works with permanents and only on the same turn they left, and usually you want to bring back Swords to Plowshares or a threat that was countered or destroyed a few turns back.

• Charming Prince is well positioned thanks to getting back your creatures that the opponent may have reanimated, a popular tactic for Scam decks. It's also good to provide card advantage with 2 toughness and potentially without involving card draw for when needed.

• Cavern of Souls or Wasteland. Wasteland is great with Samwise but a bit demanding for a 4-color manabase. Cavern does put a strong requirement on creature types but if using Flame of Anor that seems like a good potentail list for it. But probably using the human creature type rather than the wizard type. I could see trying an Abzan list with Samwise and Wasteland, but it's a real shame Bowmasters has made Thalia seem like a liability in deckbuilding.

• Natural Order. I've considered trying a green-heavy list with Natural Order, Atraxa and perhaps Teferi or Allosaurus Shepherd. Perhaps also Delighted Halfling since we can easily be a legend-heavy deck.

• Food Chain. As I was playing Grief, which I mentioned above, around January, I realized that Food Chain would be able to use the mana from pitch elementals efficiently, and Grief is the perfect one since it lets you clear the way for a Recruiter chain starting with Grief. I only played it a little but I wanted to use Tourach, Dread Cantor as an easy payoff for a single Recruiter in fair matchups, and blue control decks were running loads of StPs and Prismatic Endings at the time iirc so it was a great fair wincon; also I was thinking of Bladecoil Serpent as a way to empty the opponent's hand. I'll have to dig for more of the synergies I was playing. Oh, I ended up with Aeve, Progenitor Ooze as a wincon that Recruiters can find, immune to FoW and also useful with Vial and Karakas. Titania, Protector of Argoth is another good fair value payoff after resolving the Grief-discard.

• With the printing of Orcish Bowmasters, an Aluren approach to MOST/4c Vial again seems promising. Bowmasters is the first wincondition since Orzhov Pontiff was a hot card that deserves its spot by itself and this one even as a four of. Cavern Harpy is, like always, pretty good in the deck, letting you get extra etb-effects from the black and blue creatures (more Bowmaster pinging, more card draw with Coatl/Strix, potential life gain if playing Uro, resetting Plague Engineer, more bounce effects and potential soft-lock with Venser).

PS sorry for the constant editing, must be hard to read while Im making updates.

pettdan

09-23-2023, 07:56 AM

Still not sure what to build but I keep brewing on nic fit, painter and MOST/vial variations.

The new Eldraine set has a lot of adventure spells which actually make the case for considering Fauna Shaman again, because it differs from the Recruiter and Fiend Artisan tutoring by putting cards into your hand so you actually can use their adventures too.

ESG

09-24-2023, 12:10 AM

pettdan

09-28-2023, 05:29 PM

Just read the updated primer. Wow! This deck is so open-ended. Seems almost endlessly customizable, which is a great asset. A common concern I hear is that a deck will be rendered obsolete, but this deck's incredible number of choices make it very robust. It's been years since I played against the classic Fauna Shaman version, but I remember it well. I appreciate you relating your insights about different experiments and potential packages to explore.

Thanks, happy to hear you got something out of it! I'll keep updating the primer slowly and try to include some new decklists here from the discord because it's a pretty interesting and vast deck-building space.

pettdan

10-07-2023, 09:21 AM

I'm going to add some decklists from the Discord and link them in the primer.

User: Shazbok
Type: Fiend Artisan, green-heavy version

Comments: Played this to a 4-2 finish at recent paper event. Felt strong with aspects of MOST, ie green based-toolbox. Obviously lots of Cradle control inspiration

Date: 18 September 2023

2 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
4 Gaea's Cradle
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath

2 Allosaurus Shepherd
1 Atraxa, Grand Unifier
3 Birds of Paradise
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Elvish Reclaimer
1 Endurance
4 Fiend Artisan
1 Grist, the Hunger Tide
1 Knight of Autumn
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Malanthrope
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Opposition Agent

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order
3 Once Upon a Time
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard:
1 Endurance
3 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Vigor
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Plague Engineer
3 Thoughtseize
1 Toxicrene

pettdan

10-07-2023, 09:34 AM

User: PettDan

Comments (from February, that is):
Here's what I'm currently playtesting
The manabase is a bit lacking, since I tend to sell off fetches as their value climbs on mtgo
Also I normally have an Endurance or two in, not sure how I would fit them
Could for example cut Cling to Dust and Shriekmaw or Opposition Agent

Date: 21 February 2023

Lands: 29
1 Bayou
2 Karakas
3 Marsh Flats
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Prismatic Vista
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Snow-covered Forest
2 Snow-covered Island
1 Snow-covered Plains
1 Snow-covered Swamp
1 Tundra
1 Underground sea
+5

Creatures: 20
1 Charming Prince
4 Baleful Strix
2 Ice-fang Coatl
3 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Spellseeker
1 Opposition Agent
1 Eternal Witness
1 Knight of Autumn
1 Lagrella, the Magpie
2 Grief
2 Solitude
1 Shriekmaw

Spells: 19
1 Ephemerate
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Prismatic Ending
4 Brainstorm
1 Cling to Dust
2 Once Upon a Time
2 Force of Negation
2 Force of Will
1 Green Sun's Zenith

Enchantments, Artifacts, Planeswalkers: 12
4 Abundant Growth
4 Aether Vial
2 Animate Dead
2 Teferi, Time Raveler

pettdan

10-07-2023, 09:42 AM

User: Nicksnax
Date: 10-17-2022

Creatures:32
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Birds of Paradise
3 Giver of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Collector Ouphe
4 Fauna Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Outland Liberator // Frenzied Trapbreaker
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Endurance
1 Hullbreacher
1 Knight of Autumn
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Opposition Agent
1 Peacekeeper
1 Plague Engineer
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Shalai, Voice of Plenty
1 Shifting Ceratops
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

Spells:13
4 Aether Vial
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Sylvan Library
1 Grist, the Hunger Tide

Lands:15
2 Bayou
2 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
4 Windswept Heath

Sideboard:15
2 Allosaurus Shepherd
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Deputy of Detention
3 Endurance
2 Opposition Agent
2 Sanctum Prelate
1 Questing Beast
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Deafening Silence

FTW

10-08-2023, 12:42 AM

It looks like there are many diverse directions to build the deck, all of them quite different. From your testing, is there 1 version or particular toolbox cards that seem strong in this meta?

I would expect X/1s to be bad with a high % of Bowmasters in the format. That makes the traditional build with many X/1 mana dorks look bad, but Aether Vial & OUAT & GSZ still seem strong. Do you have a build that doesn't rely as much on X/1s?

The Elves build with Elvish Reclaimer, Fiend Artisan and GSZ looked good. If it was less like Elves and more like MOST toolbox, what would it look like?

Eg
//Engine: 23
4 Aether Vial
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Elvish Reclaimer
4 Fiend Artisan
4 Fauna Shaman
3 Once Upon A Time

//Tools: 20
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Allosaurus Shepherd
1 Giver of Runes
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Outland Liberator
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Orcish Bowmasters
1 Grist, the Hunger Tide
1 Endurance
1 Knight of Autumn
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Opposition Agent
1 Plague Engineer
1 Shalai, Voice of Plenty
1 Shifting Ceratops
1 Meren
1 Shriekmaw
1 Generous Ent

//Lands: 17
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
2 Gaea's Cradle
7 fetch
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Forest

Or would you go different colors for different tools?

Play fewer tutors and more answers?

pettdan

10-08-2023, 06:12 AM

@FTW: Yeah so most of these lists are from before Orcish Bowmasters was released, so they will probably have to change to be updated, I agree. I'm working on a couple of lists, like every two-three weeks I'm tweaking a new list usually. But I think my approach has been fairly stringent for the past 3-4 years, usually my lists have Yorion and something like 2 OuaT's, 1 GSZ, 1 Spellseeker for the GSZ, 3-4 Recruiter of the Guard, 2-3 Coatl/Strix, 1 Loran, 1 Charming Prince. I also like adding 1 Eternal Witness, 1 Ephemerate to that. Ephemerate is such a powerful spell, in my testing it's almost always good. And the Witness is obviously useful for bringing back a land or a Swords to Plowshares for example, and usually games end up in topdecking battles where Ephemerate + Witness is a game-winning card advantage-engine letting you clear the opponent's board over 2-3 turns usually. And you can tutor for the cards, making it easy to topdeck. I think I've updated the core descriptions in the primer so you'll find a similar comment there.

Today, I'm not sure if I prefer Orcish Bowmasters (and Grief + Animate Dead which creates a reanimation value loop with Yorion) (WUBG) or Fury (WURG). My available cards on MTGO fluctuate a lot, and I don't currently play actively in paper, so my version changes based on which cards I have and I avoid the most expensive cards until their price cools down.

Now I think I prefer the red splash, because... My favourite card in MOST now is Lagrella, the Magpie. It has been very good whenever I see it, I feel like it's been dominating every game I play where it shows up, if the opponent can't answer it (and Vial and Karakas both help make that difficult). And if you splash red, then Imperial Recruiter can find Lagrella, making the case for WURG. The next card I'm interested in playing is Flame of Anor, because it seems quite powerful and Snapcaster is also pretty good in the deck. Once you're making these decisions, the rest of the deck kind of builds itself - 4 Brainstorm, 4 Swords to Plowshares, 3-4 Abundant Growth, 4 FoWs. It becomes hard to match the color requirements for Fury, Endurance, Solitude and FoW, but OuaT at least helps a little by finding a colored creature and I'm trying Omnath (WURG) who's also good with Karakas.

It's possible that playing both Bowmasters and Fury is preferable, but it's hard to cut StPs and hatebears.

Now I'm not sure this is the best answer to your question, and I may go back to reread your question and adjust the reply. I discussed these perspectives, about red or black splash, in a recent post here so there is more discussion on those aspects there (a bit lengthy, sorry), and I'm not commenting much on the Fiend Artisan list yet because I haven't started with that myself. I actually got two Fiend Artisans on MTGO recently so will consider what to do with them, just didnt think of much yet.

Well, a few comments about Fiend Artisan. Fiend Artisan is leveraged by Gaea's Cradle and mana dorks, while Fauna Shaman is leveraged by Aether Vial. Fauna Shaman does work well with adventure cards and that is one approach to try now. If you want to build with both Fauna Shaman and Fiend artisan, I suggest you figure out which will be most impactful for your deckbuilding and maximize that one, and use the other one for a few one of targets. So if you go for Fiend Artisan-focus, play the cradles but skip Vials or just run say 2 Vials. For testing. And if you go for Fauna Shaman-focus, play the 4 Vials and 1 Cradle with maybe 1 KotR and 1 Reclaimer to tutor for the Cradle, that's a setup I used long ago when trying Cradle. Actually, one approach I keep revisiting is Cermak's style of Abzan list with Vials and Wastelands and 1-2 KotR's. There also was a local player running a Bant version which tried to go Thalia, Wasteland, KotR, fetch Cradle, Fauna Shaman for Craterhoof. I guess Fiend Artisan may fit better than Fauna Shaman there.

I see you're reading while Im adding to the reply so I'll make some final additions down here. I haven't seen that much Fiend Artisan action so I don't think I understand how to use it best very well, need to study it better I guess. Also, I didn't write that out clearly but I would go for 3-4 Artisans and 1-2 Fauna Shamans or the other way around, if you want to run both. And I would be tempted to try to add 1 Recruiter of the Guard and 1 Charming Prince too, just so you can always build a board of creatures without investing card advantage into them, it tends to be good. But maybe not in the green-heavy builds.

From my perspective, the 4-color lists with Recruiters for tutors seem best, because they build natural card advantage when putting creatures on the board which is good against control decks and sweepers especially, and they have a lot of free interaction in FoW, Endurance, Solitude, Fury and/or Grief. And that combination of flexible card advantage, tutors, and free spells to respond to combo and aggro seems pretty powerful.

So, if I'm missing too much of the essence of your question, feel free to repeat it to me. :)

pettdan

10-08-2023, 06:34 AM

It's possible that the next version of MOST/Vial I try should focus on Up the Beanstalk. Basically running 4 Beanstalks with FoWs, Fury/Solitude and other 5 drops while also running some redundant answers to opposing Beanstalks. Beanstalk not only synergizes with the elementals and fow that we usually play, it also offers extra card drawing with Yorion.

If running both 4 Abundant Growth and 4 Up the Beanstalk, that not only makes Yorion very good, it also puts 8 cantripping enchantments in the deck, making it relevant to look at the enchantment section of the primer again. Just wanted to add this idea here because I think I'll work on that next.

I updated the enchantments segment in the primer and I'll add it here:

• Enchantments

I've made a rough attempt to group these cards, would need to define these categories better because they overlap. Here's an old attempt at an enchantment-focused list (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32280-M-O-S-T-Merieke-Opposition-(Survival)-Tradewind-Rider&p=1083580&viewfull=1#post1083580).

Utility: Up the Beanstalk, Abundant Growth, Utopia Sprawl, Sylvan Library, Oath of Nissa, Courser of Kruphix, Bitterblossom, Sacred Mesa, Klothys, God of Destiny, Sterling Grove, Urza's Saga, Ranger Class, Wizard Class, Paladin Class,

Removal: Oblivion Ring, Banishing Light, Leyline Binding, Touch the Spirit Realm, Cast Out, Thin Ice, Swift Reconfiguration, Trial of Ambition, Detention Sphere, Banishment

Hatebears, interactive creatures: Aegis of the Gods, Callaphe, Beloved of the Sea, Doomwake Giant, Eidolon of Rhetoric

Draw-engines: Setessan Champion, Sythis, Harvest's Hand, Enchantress's Presence, Argothian Enchantress[/cards], Eidolon of Blossoms
I prefer Setessan Champion in the deck because it's not only a draw-engine, it's also a significant threat by growing with every enchantment.

Payoffs, engines: Arasta of the Endless Web, Riptide Chimera, Zur the Enchanter, Archon of Sun's Grace, Recurring Nightmare, Destiny Spinner, Kestia, the Cultivator, Tameshi, Reality Architect, Weaver of Harmony

Threats: Chromanticore, Paradox Zone, Katilda, Dawnhart Martyr, Kami of Transience

Combos, combo-enablers: Aluren, Food Chain, Academy Rector, Curse of Misfortunes, Sneak Attack
Curse of Misfortunes-targets: Cruel Reality, Curse of Fool’s Wisdom, Curse of Deaths Hold, Overwhelming Splendor, Swift Reconfiguration (with Devoted Druid)

Sideboard cards: Carpet of Flowers, Leyline of the Void, Rest in Peace, Planar Void, Choke, Back to Basics, Blood Moon, Blood Sun, Stony Silence, Engineered Plague, Leyline of Sanctity
Back to Basics and Blood Moon aren't typically the best cards in the deck, but you can run a basic-heavy list with Prismatic Vista and Abundant Growth if you really want to. Personally, I'm very interested in the idea of turning Choke into a cantrip with Setessan Champion, letting you run it with little cost (if you're lucky).

Other considerations: Mardu Ascendancy, Second Chance, Shared Animosity, Mirri's Guile, Solitary Confinement, Elephant Grass, Exploration, Serra's Sanctum, Wild Growth, Hall of Heliod's Generosity, Replenish, Karma, Gloom, Nether Void, Chains of Mephistopheles, Brain Maggot, Michiko's Reign of Truth, Nylea, Keen-Eyed, Jukai Naturalist, Sanctum Weaver, City of Solitude, Ghostly Prison, Propaganda, Sphere of Safety, Ground Seal
Mardu Ascendancy is a Najeela, the Blade-blossom without Warrier-requirement and coupled with Doran, the Siege Tower it would be game-ending, but WBRG isn't so easy to build.

Up the Beanstalk and Abundant Growth can add a critical amount of enchantments to the deck, letting other cards that get value from enchantments become considerations to include. Like Riptide Chimera, a flying 4/3 creature is perhaps not as impressive anymore but it has plenty of targets to draw cards every turn. Setessan Champion has been a favourite card and I built an enchantment nic fit list with it, it has great synergy with Recurring Nightmare I think, RN is already a very powerful card and turning it into a draw engine is pretty sweet. I like Arasta punishing the opponent from playing instants and Sorceries, and you can protect it with Karakas, and there are so many cards here that let you draw a ton of cards, I could see an enchantment build coming together but it may lack some prime threats. Maybe Aluren or Food Chain could top off the list with a potential combo win?

---

Setessan Champion + Recurring Nightmare + Riptide Chimera + Up the Beanstalk/Abundant Growth is going to draw you a bunch of cards and provide a lot of etb-effects as you reanimate creatures. Actually, Aluren works pretty well with Setessan Champion, if you have Carpy and a blue/black enchantment creature you can draw loads of cards and Setessan Champion even becomes a potential wincon that turn because it grows. I'm going to have to dig through the enchantress discord now to find some good enchantment payoffs to put in such a list.

pettdan

10-08-2023, 09:03 AM

Another list from discord
User: PettDan
Version: WURG
Date: 07-11-2023

Just a recent but rather untested list to show a more updated go at it.

For this list, my approach was something like this: Bowmasters is too expensive to buy right now, but I want to play a deck that is good against Bowmasters. Priorities: 1) use Lagrella, 2) Fury is a great card against both Bowmasters and planeswalkers, great with Yorion and Lagrella (5/5 double striker and easy extra etb triggers), 3) while in red, Minsc & Boo is a superb threat, 3) Imperial Recruiter adds red cards for pitching to Fury and also finds Lagrella which the white recruiter doesn't, 4) Stoneforge is a good threat against Bowmasters and Jitte kills Bowmasters, Kaldra is a proactive threat, 5), I want StP, Prismatic Ending and Solitude to answer Death's Shadow, Grief, Murktide Regent, Delvers and DRC's. 6) Cut down on Strixes and Coatls because they are poor topdecks against Bowmasters which was seemingly very popular at the time, however it's still an important card for making Lagrella useful so I still want some unknown quantity of it in the deck. I was temporarily out of Spellseeker, iirc, or it might have been added. Blue count was too low in this list, so that's something I worked on.

In my next list, I decided to add Flame of Anor, Snapcaster Mage, Samwise the Stouthearted, Lorien Revealed and Omnath, Locus of Creation which theoretically does a great job of replacing Strix/Coatl against Bowmasters and can be bounced with Karakas for protection and value. A problem with Stoneforge Mystic is that in a deck with pitch cards in 4 colors it doesn't provide to the color requirements.

https://i.ibb.co/txbbJys/WURG-230711-pettdan.png

https://ibb.co/QC66KsN

FTW

10-08-2023, 11:33 PM

Ok, interesting. Thanks for the updates on strategy and deckbuilding.

The appeal of Fiend Artisan to me is that it's a good beater on its own, synergizes with discarding creature cards, and can grow enough to dodge Bowmasters and weenie removal (which much of the enablers are weak to). It's a proven engine in Elves. However Elves is bad vs Bowmasters and other X/1 hate. I wondered if Fiend Artisan would be good here, like in that 1 list. But it is mana hungry and doesn't synergize with Vial and those engines.

So you seem to prefer Vial and hand tutors (Recruiters). The Recruiter bodies seem bad vs Bowmasters, but good with flicker tech (Charming Prince, Yorion, Samwise, Ephemerate).

If you build in that direction, what makes MOST distinct or better than Esper Vial? Is it the 4th color? (Especially if you go WURG for Lagrella, Fury, Imperial Recruiter, Minsc...)

pettdan

10-09-2023, 07:54 AM

If you build in that direction, what makes MOST distinct or better than Esper Vial? Is it the 4th color? (Especially if you go WURG for Lagrella, Fury, Imperial Recruiter, Minsc...)

Short answer: there is nothing that distinguishes Esper Vial from MOST/Vial, it's just a subset. There is no card in Esper Vial that isn't commonly played in MOST, afaik, most of them are staples. Before Recruiter of the Guard was printed, you couldn't run an Esper version but now it seems like a natural approach.

Longer answer: I think Esper Vial basically is a subset of MOST, it plays the same creatures and spells that many MOST versions, not all, played for years, it just cut out the green cards which basically means GSZ and the mana dorks, Fauna Shaman wasn't really cut but substituted for Recruiter of the Guard. So Esper is certainly a valid approach, but I'm more interested in exploring a larger set of cards and actually Esper Vial players are also adding colors, even green with Once Upon a Time was discussed for a while. A red splash was recently introduced that was almost exactly how I splashed red a couple of years back (redblasts, magus, potentially an attacker). Streamlining the deck is relevant and I play the Esper version sometimes, but I'm more about creativity and exploring rather than streamlining and focusing. And I think there are many good cards outside of the Esper standard cards. Actually while I go to 4 and 5 colors, as Bowmasters became popular, Jeff who built Esper Vial as we know it went into 2 colors, Orzhov, and you know all is good, there's endless customizability here and so hard to know what's right. I'm kind of worried to find out in testing that Abundant Growth will be too much of a liability vs Bowmasters decks and that this will force me into 3 colors, but hopefully not.

Actually, just looking at the MOST cards already tells us this: Merieke = Gilded Drake, Survival/Fauna Shaman = Recruiter of the Guard, Tradewind Rider = Venser. Opposition isn't really played anymore, it's a powerful spell but I think Pyroblast just makes it too easy to answer. And it's not a creature anyway so limited synergy in that aspect. So, by applying the historically kind of irrelevant naming convention used to name the deck "MOST", an updated name for MOST/Esper Vial could be G(O)RV.

So you seem to prefer Vial and hand tutors (Recruiters). The Recruiter bodies seem bad vs Bowmasters, but good with flicker tech (Charming Prince, Yorion, Samwise, Ephemerate).

The recruiter bodies aren't bad against Bowmasters, I'd say, because you get the recruiter body for free and your opponent needs to spend their ping to take it out. Well, if they do in response to your flicker or bounce of the recruiter, than that is bad, you're right at the same time. So one needs to try to wait for situations when there isn't 2 mana up. One comment I've seen a few times is that Esper Vial, and similarly MOST/X-color-Vial, is usually better equipped to leverage Bowmasters than other decks who lack Vial and tutors for Bowmasters.

About Fiend Artisan, I need to evaluate what to use it for. I'll start here. Feel free to chime in.

Fiend Artisan
Advantages:
* Creature tutor without color/power/toughness-restrictions.
* Lets you put the creature directly into play without risk of being countered (can be stifled though).
* FA can potentially grow into a game-ending threat.
* Sacrifice-outlet for cards that need it.
Disadvantages:
* Mana-hungry and can't leverage Vial.
* It has a tap-effect and no etb-effect so it can easily be neutralized at parity in card-advantage by removal-heavy decks.

Bullets with high impact to build around:

* Craterhoof Behemoth is probably one of the most impactful, game-ending targets that the Elves deck is built to utilize.
* Elesh Norn, Grand Xenobite and Sheoldred, Whispering One are good Volrath's Shapeshifter targets and natural to consider in this context.
* Culling the Weak lets you generate a lot of mana and Fiend Artisan helps you use that mana without exposing it to a counterspell. Well, they can still counter CtW though. This is mostly a cool card I've been looking at for Nic Fit recently, again.
* Happy to hear more suggestions, which are the most impactful targets?

Typically, we're looking at non-green creatures (because green creatures have been extensively researched due to GSZ's and Natural Order's similar effects, but they are good targets too of course). Actually, we should look at Birthing Pod decks because they have similar targets.

Good characteristics of Fiend Artisan-targets:

* Attackers with haste: If they have haste, that's an advantage, not least because you can't use Vial to eot the creature and attack without sorcery-speed responses.
* Hatebears: Bringing in hatebears can be powerful, surprising the opponent and leaving them unable to stop it once it's in play. Magus of the Moon for example is pretty good here.
* Creatures with EtB-effects: since you can sacrifice the creature after you got value from the etb-effect, it's a quite valuable application.
* Combo-elements: being able to put a combo-relevant creature into play is quite promising, especially for combos that can win at instant speed. Thassa's Oracle/Inverter of Truth, Devoted Druid-combo, maybe Yawgmoth, Bomberman...
* Persist/Undying-creatures for extra value with Artisan.

Haste:
Shaman of the Great Hunt, better with Vial because that frees up mana so you can use the card draw effect immediatly.
Izzet Staticaster

Hatebears:
Magus of the moon, very useful to be able to put this into play when opponent didn't float mana for example.
Sanctum Prelate

Value:
Samwise the Stouthearted, lets you bring back the sacrificed creature immediately.
Glen Elendra Archmage, utility, can have a game-ending effect vs combo decks, be very useful vs control decks and also lends itself to further sacrificing to the Fiend Artisan effect.

Threats, combo, hard to remove:
True-Name Nemesis
Keranos, God of Storms
Yawgmoth, Thran Physician

EtBs:
Solitude
Fury
Grief
Seasoned Dungeoneer
Caves of Chaos Adventurer
Orcish Bowmasters

Removal:
Plaguebearer, it's been a long time since I looked at this cards but using this to clean up DRCs, Delvers and Saga tokens seems at least interesting.
Plague Engineer

snugar_i

10-11-2023, 07:50 AM

Sweet to hear, thanks for telling me! If you have any thoughts or reflections, I appreciate any future comments.
That was a bot, unfortunately :-(

10-11-2023, 12:11 PM

That was a bot, unfortunately :-(
No worry, cleaned up now.

pettdan

10-16-2023, 05:33 PM

Another card I want to try building around is Up the Beanstalk.

So I'm just going to list a couple of cards that seem good with it. Usually I just put this in a brewing area but why not share it. I'll come back to update.

Companions:
Yorion, Sky Nomad
Jegantha, the Wellspring

X-spells:
Green Sun's Zenith
Forth Eorlingas!

Pitch-spells:
Fury
Solitude
Force of Will

Domain-discount:
Leyline Binding

Delve:
Murderous Cut
Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Murktide Regent, I don't usually play vanilla beaters but ok
Hooting Mandrills

Land-discount:
Submerge

Miracle:
Terminus , clearly not for us
Triumph of saint Katherine

Convoke:
Knight-Errant of Eos

Regrowth effects:
Meren of Clan Nel Toth is pretty useful for bringing back Fury and Solitude every turn
Eternal Witness bringing back FoW for example

Goblins:
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Grenzo, Dungeon Warden

Artifacts:
Batterskull
Kaldra Compleat
Walking Ballista
Phyrexian Fleshgorger

Affinity or Improvise:
Thought Monitor
Thoughtcast
Kappa Cannoneer
Whir of Invention
Urza, Chief Artificer
Myr Enforcer, only relevant with Birthing Pod-effects

Green:
Green Sun's Zenith
Gaea's Cradle
Titania, Protector of Argoth
Primeval Titan, usually too large for my MOST builds
Avabruck Caretaker
Nissa, Ascended Animist
Nissa, Who Shakes the World
Wrenn and Seven
Storm the Festival, imagine building a deck with this, hmm... Not going to happen, but still. 1 Cradle, 2 KotR, 1 Reclaimer.

Blue:
Hullbreaker Horror
Lorien Revealed, actually it's the cycling that enables this card in a deck

Enchantments:
Setessan Champion
Sythis, Harvest's Hand
Weaver of Harmony
Leyline Binding
Serra's Sanctum

Flashback (if they actually trigger, need to check):
Memory Deluge

Synergy:
Vial Smasher the Fierce

So, I think this indicates a couple of straightforward builds (that already exist, some of them): delve à la RUG Delver, affinity à la 8-cast, UW-based control (w Binding, FoW).
Some brewing options I see for MOST/Vial are:
- a Cradle-based build with lands matter that tutors for Cradle or develops mana through Ramunap Excavator, Veteran Explorer, Primeval Titan, Titania, and/or Reclaimer+Flagstones.
- an enchantment build with Setessan Champion and/or Sythis, potentially even Serra's Sanctum to power up non-enchantment 5-drops.
- a Vial Smasher-build, but BR is not so easy to splash for my normal builds
- Yorion, Solitude, Fury, FoW, Leyline Binding, GSZ, these all go into a pretty standard MOST list.
- a list with a Stoneforge-package, not so spectactular and also not that much synergy, you don't normally want to hardcast the equipments anyway.

FTW

10-16-2023, 09:09 PM

Up the Beanstalk is popular and powerful, but it needs the deck to be built around the synergy. It shines best in something like 4c/5c Zenith with Yorion. These decks run
Force of Will
Solitude
Yorion, Sky Nomad
Leyline Binding
Lorien Revealed
Terminus
Forth Eorlingas!

They can also overpay X on Green Sun's Zenith and Prismatic Ending. Overall they have a lot of cards that can trigger Beanstalk. AND none of them are dead cards on 2 mana. That's the beauty of the deck. It's full of 5s that don't have to be 5s (and are also powerful standalone control effects). But lategame they CAN be 5s, turning every spell into a cantrip, letting you go over the top!

A lot of your MOST builds have low curves with a lot at 1-3 cmc. A lot of your key engine pieces are 1-2 cmc. Would you have to bend the deck too much to make Beanstalk work? Would you have to run 5s that risk being dead on lower land counts?

If you go the enchantment direction with Beanstalk, it seems like a bad GW Enchantress.

The Affinity/Improvise direction would mean either forcing cards that are not Legacy playable or being a bad version of 8-cast with less stable mana (4x Thought Monitor 4x Thoughtcast 4x Kappa Cannoneer 4x Sea Gate Restoration 4x Lorien Revealed 4x new Myr Enforcer all triggers Beanstalk but doesn't look like MOST).

If you were to try it in MOST, 80-card Yorion makes the most sense. At worst Yorion will flicker Beanstalk (+2 cards) so it's never bad even if you're in topdeck mode or have nothing to trigger it.

Green Sun's Zenith becomes top choice as an engine card. What other tutors would you run? Recruiters? Abundant Growth fits better than mana dorks, works with Yorion, and doesn't lose to Bowmasters.

You may want to look at landcycling creatures like Generous Ent or Timeless Dragon, which can cycle early to fix duals or be cast late to trigger Beanstalk.

Edit: Does Triumph of Saint Katherine make Worldly Tutor playable? In most decks no. But what about in MOST decks? MOST wants toolbox creature tutors anyway, right? Setting up a 5/5 lifelink that triggers Beanstalk is strong. Tutors also mean you don't need a high number of 5s to play Beanstalk. You just need a high number of ways to get to 5s (when it's profitable to have 5s). You can mitigate the drawback of Worldly Tutor being dead (-1 card) by playing a couple cantrip creatures like Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath so that you can "cycle" Tutor when you need to.

Reeplcheep

10-17-2023, 08:18 AM

ThrabenU recently posted a video about beanstalk in a green creature shell. The overlapping enablers used were hooting mandrills, contagion, hogaak, green suns zenith, and murderous cut.

pettdan

10-19-2023, 07:07 AM

First of all, it's sweet to have some discussion and comments, thank you FTW! I postponed replying because I needed to digest it a little, there are many things to comment on here and I'm still not sure about the direction of Beanstalk-MOST and I'm not sure how to address each comment so this will just be an attempt to respond something. In the end, I suppose it's when we try to actually build a deck that we can balance and evaluate many of these comments and questions.

Up the Beanstalk is popular and powerful, but it needs the deck to be built around the synergy. It shines best in something like 4c/5c Zenith with Yorion.
...
They can also overpay X on Green Sun's Zenith and Prismatic Ending. Overall they have a lot of cards that can trigger Beanstalk. AND none of them are dead cards on 2 mana. That's the beauty of the deck. It's full of 5s that don't have to be 5s (and are also powerful standalone control effects). But lategame they CAN be 5s, turning every spell into a cantrip, letting you go over the top!

I haven't looked closely at those lists, I need to do that. But I think MOST/Vial has some unique and powerful advantages, and I think they can be preserved while running Beanstalk. Beanstalk is a nice value engine, but I don't think it necessarily has to be the main strategy of a deck, it can probably be used to amplify an existing strategy. I guess what I mean is that I don't think the ability to draw cards necessarily maximizes the win percentage in a large variety of matchups. If it did, then we'd see more draw-focused decks. [edit: I guess this needs more motivation since card draw is the easiest way to figure out who wins a game, but I guess my point is that there are other ways to get card advantage and also functionality of cards also matters] However, it certainly is very good and valuable and it could be that it indeed will be the most powerful strategy to just maximize the advantage of beanstalk, but we're not there yet so we cannot assume that to be the case. We have some freedom in strategy of our deckbuilding here.

A lot of your MOST builds have low curves with a lot at 1-3 cmc. A lot of your key engine pieces are 1-2 cmc. Would you have to bend the deck too much to make Beanstalk work? Would you have to run 5s that risk being dead on lower land counts?

This is an especially good question, I think. There are some key cards that are low in cmc, like Recruiters and Aether Vial. Recruiter replaces itself, and Vial casts it for you, so I don't think Recruiter actually is a problem for Beanstalk. If you tutor up 5-cmc creatures, then it could be an advantage even, perhaps. Recruiter does add a lot of value to Yorion, for example. However, Beanstalk does synergize better with GSZ than with vial. But Vial is more powerful than GSZ. There's no simple analytical way to figure out which combination of cards will be more powerful, flexible, better in different ways, it will have to be evaluated I think.

However, Ather Vial does seem to have very low synergy with Up the Beanstalk, just like Vial isn't great with Cradle, Fiend Artisan, pitch-elementals or delve. Sometimes I just change Vial into Cabal Therapy and change the deck into Nic Fit, and that does synergize better with the beanstalk, but like I mentioned, you can't say for sure what is actually better in the end as Vial is a very powerful spell, Vial decks have usually been more successful than GSZ decks. So I think we have to innovate in deck building to see where a Vial version goes, how it looks, what it does well or not well.

If you go the enchantment direction with Beanstalk, it seems like a bad GW Enchantress.

I think this is impossible to say at this point. I enjoy brewing with Enchantress cards, and I always dislike Enchantress as a strategic deck choice. It's a fun interesting deck and I'm happy to see it played, but in the past when I played against the deck it always felt like it had some weak spots and I was usually able to find ways to beat it with my decks. I remember some games, years back, where Karakas, Vial and Leovold just won the game and they couldn't interact with it. Other games when I'm on Nic Fit have been easily won by just dropping Pernicious Deed and clearing the board. I think a more wellrounded strategy which leverages the enchantment value engines could be a very good choice, at least it's a relevant approach to try. I've been building those decks recently, and in the past.

Edit: interestingly, peripherally relevant, Im just listening to the pod Faithless Brewing (excellent podcast for brewers but rarely for legacy, unfortunately; s19e05) and they are actually making a Setessan Champion deck for Modern, 5-0-ing on the first attempt and observing that enchantress style decks are much worse. Well that was my quick interpretation, maybe I missed something there but I found it repeated my message here pretty perfectly but however for Modern.

The Affinity/Improvise direction would mean either forcing cards that are not Legacy playable or being a bad version of 8-cast with less stable mana (4x Thought Monitor 4x Thoughtcast 4x Kappa Cannoneer 4x Sea Gate Restoration 4x Lorien Revealed 4x new Myr Enforcer all triggers Beanstalk but doesn't look like MOST).

Again, I think this is a premature statement and the deck needs to be evaluated before coming to this kind of conclusion. I've played WUBR vial with Painter in the past 2 years and it's been a pretty good deck in testing. There's a lot of deck building space that anyone who wishes to can explore. You could be right, though, naturally.

If you were to try it in MOST, 80-card Yorion makes the most sense. At worst Yorion will flicker Beanstalk (+2 cards) so it's never bad even if you're in topdeck mode or have nothing to trigger it.

Definitely in a Yorion list, yes. A recent MOST/vial-list I ran had 3 fury, 2 solitude, 4 fows in the maindeck. So I think that's already pretty good payoff for the Beanstalks. And changing StP into Leyline Binding is a pretty small deck-building decision, if trying to increase triggers. I guess you'd keep some StP's though. Well, I started drafting a brewing list to help this work, so I'll continue see what I can put together in a while.

Green Sun's Zenith becomes top choice as an engine card. What other tutors would you run? Recruiters? Abundant Growth fits better than mana dorks, works with Yorion, and doesn't lose to Bowmasters.

Edit: It seems like Fauna Shaman is the only creature tutor that fits really well with Up the Beanstalk, and like you say GSZ seems great. I mean, the power/toughness requirements of the recruiters seem to make it a bit more difficult to find 5+ cmc creatures, besides Solitude.

You may want to look at landcycling creatures like Generous Ent or Timeless Dragon, which can cycle early to fix duals or be cast late to trigger Beanstalk.
Yeah, these creatures are already good and I think if running Animate Dead, which creates a value-loop with Yorion, you can also reanimate the pitch elementals which is pretty good. If doing black splash.

Edit: Does Triumph of Saint Katherine make Worldly Tutor playable? In most decks no. But what about in MOST decks? MOST wants toolbox creature tutors anyway, right? Setting up a 5/5 lifelink that triggers Beanstalk is strong. Tutors also mean you don't need a high number of 5s to play Beanstalk. You just need a high number of ways to get to 5s (when it's profitable to have 5s). You can mitigate the drawback of Worldly Tutor being dead (-1 card) by playing a couple cantrip creatures like Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath so that you can "cycle" Tutor when you need to.

Triumph of Saint Katherine is one of the more interesting cards I listed, I feel. I recently added Worldly Tutor to the primer for combinastion with Vesuvan Drifter so it does have a second valuable target [edit: a combo target in this case, I expect to put Emrakul on top of the library, or maybe Elesh Norn, not sure what else has good impact] besides the Triumph. I guess WT is most likely to be run as a one of with Spellseeker so you can effectively use a Recruiter to put Triumph on top of your library which will be pretty good against Delver and control decks, I suppose. Im not sure how powerful Triumph is, I dont think Ive seen it in play, it just seems pretty obnoxious and I can see it being a valuable addition to the creature toolbox. Edit: so that's a yes, I think Worldly Tutor becomes relevant to brew with, in a list with Triumph and perhaps testing the Vesuvan Drifter combo. I wonder what else might work with Drifter...

Edit: I just had a meta game consideration and that's Gaddock + Sylvan Safekeeper, as a good way to stop a bunch of what Beanstalk decks are doing. Now, if you run those two, you probably want to run Ramunap Excavator or another creature that can bring back lands, and then you want GSZ and Titania, Protector of Argoth. Which triggers Beanstalk. So that is one starting point of building a MOST/Vial Beanstalk deck. Of course, depending on how many Gaddocks we run, we want to avoid having too many spells locked down by Gaddock. So I think Leyline Binding is out, while GSZ is ok because it will usually find the Gaddock and it's ok to strand a powerful spell in hand once in a while. FoW is also ok, if opponent answers Gaddock then that freed up FoW, and if they don't answer it, then you're probably in a good spot anyway, in the matchups where it matters. I'll just put the thought here for future consideration. Edit 2: However, this seems to be a more natural fit with a Nic Fit, Maverick or Stax deck.

pettdan

10-19-2023, 07:07 AM

ThrabenU recently posted a video about beanstalk in a green creature shell. The overlapping enablers used were hooting mandrills, contagion, hogaak, green suns zenith, and murderous cut.

Thanks! I'll have a look at it.

pettdan

11-20-2023, 06:59 AM

shaden

11-22-2023, 08:57 AM

Good morning everyone! I apologize for my low level English, I will try to make a small report regarding my experience at the main event legacy of the eternal weekend.
First of all I want to make a premise, the deck itself is really fun and as you will all have noticed looking at the enormous diversity between published lists (I really thank Pettdan for the archiving work and for keeping this discussion more active as possible) it allows you to diversify a lot of strategy based on your playing style and the metagame you predict.
There is no right or wrong list, rather there is the best list to use in a tournament with a certain metagame.

My choice was certainly wrong because it was made following my tastes, since in a historical moment in which the presence of combo decks (our most favorable match ups) is at an all-time low and the prevalence of tempo decks with bowmasters destroying us it literally, means that we should probably follow a different path for this moment.
Finally my time for playing is always few so my mistakes had a significant influence on the final result.
All this to say that there is always room for improvement so you should never give up 😉

So let's get to the tournament:
R1 Mono Black (with Karn, Dauthi, Opposition agent and Damnation)
Really unfavorable match up, I was advantaged by the fact that my opponent didn't know the deck so in G1 after a long waste of resources by both Griselbrand with 2 mothers managed to bring home the victory and in G2 it ended due to of time in a situation of substantial balance (if my opponent had made fewer mistakes he would certainly have won both games): 1-0
1-0

R2 Jund
Perhaps the worst match up existing for us (between lightning, waste, decay, trophy, Liliana, punishing fire, seize) Never really been in the game: 0-2
1-1

R3 4c control beans
G1 really lasts a long time but by dint of having an advantage with beans I run out of resources and manages to remove meddling which calls terminus and shortly thereafter it ends
G2 a magus of the moon at the right time leaves him with only mountains and wins alone
G3 the time is practically over and it ends in a draw, I decide to give it to him because he probably would have won...: 1-2
1-2

R4 Naya Depths
G1 I manage to block it with peacekeeper long enough to assemble the divining with + thassa's oracle combo.
G2 a fast 20/20 that I have no answer to in my hand kills me
G3 I want to try to win it so with mother active and a bird on the field considered her sejiri in the cemetery they make me feel calm but not knowing that she plays two I die since I had removed Vendilion from the main deck the night before, in addition to the error this game I could have played it much better, my fault: 1-2
1-3

R5 UB Scam
In G1 he wins very quickly with grief and trolls G2 I manage to revive a Griselbrand that he will have no way to remove in a short time G3 as in G1: 1-2
1-4

R6 Merfolks
It's been a long time since I played against them but it's always been a fairly favorable match up, but I played both games backwards: 0-2
1-5
Something went off in me, having finished very early I take some time to rest for a moment.
R7 Reanimator
The break did me good, I play 3 good games, in G1 I start very strong and I have no way to do anything, in the remaining 2 games I manage to get the better of it quite easily: 2-1
2-5

R8 Eldrazi
G1 starts with ancient tomb and chalice at 1, my hand with brainstorm and 2 hierarch (drawing bird immediately after) can really do little and I concede
G2 with kigh on autumn at T2 I slow him down and manage to reanimate Griselbrand in a short time
G3 fow protects me from chalice and a fast natural order for progenitus Wins in 2 turns: 2-1
3-5

R9 infect
G1 starts with earth and glistener elf, in turn 2 invigorated and berserk protected by daze on my fow they kill me (I could have block but I hoped to have at least one more turn)
G2 here I really lost because my mistakes, I manage to have an active fauna but wanting to try to win I don't go for peacekeeper and this costs me the game, he will close the next turn: 0-2
3-6

At this point I was really too tired to continue, 9 rounds with Most are just too many...

the list I played can be seen from the link published by Pettdan

I add some considerations that can be a starting point for discussion:
- Vial: I like them a lot but I'm still not convinced that they are suitable for the deck thus composed, for example post side I want to quickly get 4 mana for Natural Order or Minsc & Boo, it would be better to replace them are better mana dorks and/or GSZ
- Volrath's shapeshifter: I have NEVER transformed it into phage to close, it has occasionally useful to become atraxa/griselbrand for short periods of time, 2 I think are too many assuming I don't cut it completely...
- I would like an advantage engine with fauna and Squee would be perfect but it is not blue (fow requires at least 17/18 blue cards and we are at the limit) and it would mean adding another suboptimal without having active fauna in play

I hope it is useful to all of you and that perhaps it can lead to some food for thought 🙂

ESG

11-25-2023, 04:25 AM

Thanks for the report, Shaden. Since you want Squee and care about the blue count, would you consider Master of Death (https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/205/master-of-death)?

pettdan

12-04-2023, 05:27 PM

Thanks for the report, Shaden! Very nice to read and share your experience! About the list, I wouldn't dare bringing a combo based on x/1s to a big tournament (with Bowmasters in the format), like for example Volrath's Shapeshifter, but the card has a lot of potential so I was extra curious to see how it went.

Anyway, I'm considering what to try now, here are couple of options. I recently got (on MTGO) a Fiend Artisan and Cradle, Mox Diamonds and Fury and Grief are cheap on MTGO, two Bowmasters, so we'll see if I get around to playing a little. I actually spend my evening time trying to learn Python, Django (web development framework) and Javascrip now, also dipping into machine learning, so we'll see how that goes.

Potential directions to test:

- GSZ, Titania, Safekeeper, KotR, Cradle. Seems like this direction could go Abzan with Wastelands.
- Fury, Lagrella, Omnath, maybe Fable. This is the direction I was taking earlier this year, before Fury went to 50 tix. (edit: and Forth Eorlingas, Minsc & Boo)
- Flame of Anor, Snapcaster Mage. These fit with the above version, but could also be run in a more dedicated list with many instants and Snapcasters.
- Food Chain, Grief, Bowmasters OR Questing Druid. I was trying this around January this year, iirc. Seemed nice.
- Aluren. It's always been a smooth inclusion for a combo element, but now with Bowmasters there's a wincon that's very easy to include.
- Leovold, Delighthed Halfling, Ertai, maybe Cavern.
- Beanstalk MOST.
- Enchantment MOST with perhaps Beanstalk, certainly with Abundant Growth and Setessan champion, Fable. This is more likely to be a Nic Fit deck. Nice with Recurring Nightmare too.
- Humans: Talia's Lieutenant, Greymond (a.k.a. Rich). Lets you run Caverns which can be pretty good.
Late additions (240120):
- Artifact theme with potential inclusions: Goblin Welder, Goblin Engineer, Breya (4-mana Breya), Strix, Emry, Tameshi, Saga, Painter+Grindstone, Nihil Spellbomb, Phyrexian Dragon Engine
- Natural Order, Atraxa, GSZ+Arbor, Allosaurus Shepherd. Teferi, Kutzil?
- Scryb Ranger+Mother of Runes
- Abzan-build with Wasteland, Meren, Grief+Troll?+Reanimate, Solitude, Canonist (Thalia or Spirit of the Labyrinth might be better unless for Bowmasters)
- I always think about how I can build an updated version with Shaman of the Great Hunt, a favourite card that has been very good in the past. It still looks pretty good to me.
- I'd like to build a dedicated Recurring Nightmare version. It's very similar to Ephemerate+Witness, which I already play, but it'll take a different direction I believe. Will be thinking of using Grief, Troll, Ertai, Solitude, Bowmasters, Witness (keep thinking).
- I want to play a flash version.
- Bounce+discard version, using discard for removal. Using: Brazen Borrower, Venser, Barrin, Teferi, with Grief. Recoil? Thoughtseize? Liliana otv?

FTW

12-04-2023, 06:15 PM

Oooh, Shaden representing at the Eternal Weekend and getting a mention in the stream. Unfortunately the force was not with them on this day.

https://mtgdecks.net/Legacy/five-color-combo-decklist-by-shaden-1805919

16 X/1s. Ouch.

According to MTGGoldfish, 4 of the top 8 decks have 4x Bowmasters. OP could have been punished even more if not playing in the losing bracket.

How would you modify the 1-mana slot to be more resilient in this meta?
Would you play Giver of Runes instead of Mother? Ramp like Utopia Sprawl instead of Birds? Play Grief scam and Bowmasters yourself? Not play combos that need X/1s?

Edit: Have you ever considered playing Hushbringer + Phyrexian Dreadnought? Is that compatible with any Vial MOST build? Hushbringer hates on Bowmasters, Initiative, Grief, Thassa combos, Yorion control.... most of the format. It does limit your own build options though. You could back it up with other non-ETB hatebears like Meddling Mage, Thalia, Teeg, Collector Ouphe...

pettdan

12-05-2023, 06:24 PM

How would you modify the 1-mana slot to be more resilient in this meta?
Would you play Giver of Runes instead of Mother? Ramp like Utopia Sprawl instead of Birds? Play Grief scam and Bowmasters yourself? Not play combos that need X/1s?

Playing your own Bowmasters seems like a valid approach, I've seen comments from Esper Vial that they are usually better at leveraging Bowmasters than other decks. I typically run Abundant Growth as a CMC 1-slot, and I'm curious if it's bad against Bowmasters. Depending on how bad it is, I'm considering replacing (edit: a few) copies with Delighted Halfling, though it pushes you into a legends and planeswalkers build.

If I was playing a creature combo like with Volrath's Shapeshifter, I might be testing a mix of Mother and Giver, with more weight on mother.

Edit: adding to that reply, after reading your question another time, yes I also would consider playing Scam. I was playing 2 Grief and 2 Animate Dead in testing around January-February, iirc, this year, and it felt pretty good, that was before the Scam trend had started, at least I wasn't aware, so it was a small package back then (Jeff Lin was trying something like that in Esper Vial and it seemed nice so I also wanted to try it)

Edit: Have you ever considered playing Hushbringer + Phyrexian Dreadnought? Is that compatible with any Vial MOST build? Hushbringer hates on Bowmasters, Initiative, Grief, Thassa combos, Yorion control.... most of the format. It does limit your own build options though. You could back it up with other non-ETB hatebears like Meddling Mage, Thalia, Teeg, Collector Ouphe...

Yes I've been thinking about Hushbringer and Dreadnought in an Abzan build, since there's a bunch of relevant creatures without etbs there, kind of pushes you into a Maverick style build but I'd keep vials. Seems like it could be worth trying again now. I'm also considering, and more recently too, a similar build with Death's Shadow instead of Dreadnought. Also Varolz, the Scar-Striped is great with both of them.

Edit: btw, Vickas used to experiment with Lazav and Dreadnought, you can find his lists linked in the primer, here's the latest one: https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32280-M-O-S-T-Merieke-Opposition-(Survival)-Tradewind-Rider&p=1081213&viewfull=1#post1081213

pettdan

12-28-2023, 07:02 AM

I started testing a list on mtgo recently, just a match or two per day. I've got all the cards I could wish for now on MTGO and I opened a bunch of tresure chests for good value play points. If you buy and open treasure chests, especially if you time it right you get a good discount on play points, and this lets you enter tournaments and leagues for a lower cost. I think I got about 50% discount on these play points.

Here's what I'm testing in order to have a fair chance to beat Beanstalk decks. I have no idea of whether it will be effective or not.
2 Loran
2 Karakas (bounce Loran, destroy another Beanstalk or Binding)
1 Leovold
2 Hullbreacher
2 Orcish Bowmasters
1 Gaddock Teeg (considering Lavinia instead)
1 Initative creature since it was claimed to be good against Beanstalk decks

I could see also playing a copy of Witherbloom Command.

That's a fair amount of card draw disruption, and I figured it will be relevant in many other matchups too. I think in order to step it up, I could drop some white, move more into BUG and play more Leovolds. But I think the list loses too much from that, Recruiter and Solitude. Otoh, it could enable playing more Griefs so it's a consideration.

Another thing I was considering was to make the deck building, and deck evaluation, more structured by trying to systematically evaluate a couple of concepts that I'm building a deck on. We already do this when we build decks, in an unstructured process, but when your deck is very flexible it might be worthwile expressing these things for more easy evaluation of deck buildling direction and decisions. These are the decisions of direction I was thinking of:

List of evaluation criteria when evaluating how a (Vial/MOST) deck operates.

A. Synergy. Does the deck build on specific synergies? We usually play a bunch of synergies, but this is the glue that holds a deck together and it's worth considering which way we decided to take a specific build. There is a section of synergies in the primer but it could be for example artifacts (Strix, Welder), Equipment (Stoneforge, equipment), Wizards, Humans, ETB-effects (Strix, Coatl, Loran, bounce or flicker effects), or graveyard synergies (Meren, Samwise, Witness+Ephemerate).
B. Tutors. This is in my opinion what defines MOST/X-color Vial, the creature tutors set the deck building criteria (so maybe it should be evaluated first, as A).
C. Removal. Nothing special here, must always consider removal. For MOST, it's usually a mix of spells and creatures.
D. Powerful finisher. This is the point I wanted to emphasize when making this list. This is what I posted about when I posted about different directions to test. So in practice, this should perhaps be first in the list. It doesn't define the deck or how it operates, but it does define how you build it, which colors, which creatures tutors you pick etc.
E. Answers to other decks and their finishers. Silver-bullets.

For application during deck building, perhaps the order is another. Deck building needs to settle some decisions first that influence the overall structure of the deck.

A. Powerful finisher. If there's a well positioned finisher you can build your deck on, then you go into those colors and let this direct the other choices you make.
B. Answers to other decks and their finishers, silver-bullets. If a deck is popular, and you have a terrific answer to it that you can tutor up, that's a great strategic opportunity that you want to grasp/explore/exploit.
C. Tutors. Based on your threats and silverbullets, pick tutors that help you find them.
D. Synergies. The rest of the deck.
E. Removal. Got to have it.

FTW

12-28-2023, 11:36 AM

I like this meta-discussion around deckbuilding.

Although you are the MOST expert and I am just a general Legacy player, I would argue that Answers should be A and Finishers should be B or C (maybe below Tutors).

MOST seems to be fundamentally a creature toolbox deck. Therefore, the best thing you could/should do is evaluate the current meta DTBs and pick the best tools to answer those decks. You have the advantage of being the most customizable creature toolbox, so why not play all the best answers? Then pick the right tutor package to find them.

You can find playable finishers in any color combo or synergy combo. Finishers could be a later thought. In Legacy, it seems more important that you're beating what the top decks do and weaving around common meta problems, instead of just building in a silo around some wincon (how the newer formats work).

pettdan

12-28-2023, 12:02 PM

Although you are the MOST expert and I am just a general Legacy player, I would argue that Answers should be A and Finishers should be B or C (maybe below Tutors).

MOST seems to be fundamentally a creature toolbox deck. Therefore, the best thing you could/should do is evaluate the current meta DTBs and pick the best tools to answer those decks. You have the advantage of being the most customizable creature toolbox, so why not play all the best answers? Then pick the right tutor package to find them.

I agree, and I think that's actually what I tend to do. Because MOST is more of a reactionary deck than a proactive deck. Having access to tutors does enable a more reactive game plan, perhaps, while focusing on threats tends to lead to streamlining a deck to most efficiently find and use those threats. I think I was thinking of the (relatively rare) situation that a specific threat seems very well-positioned and that could then be a first consideration in deck construction. I may change the order of those two or three.

It's a shame you removed your list of top tier decks, I was going to use it.

FTW

12-28-2023, 02:28 PM

It's a shame you removed your list of top tier decks, I was going to use it.

I wanted to keep the comment readable & focused on the main idea. I'll repost it.

In the current meta, strategies to build around:

Bowmasters (avoid too many X/1s and value "draw" effects, play your own Bowmasters)

Beans (play disenchant bears, play draw hate like Bowmasters, Leovold, Hullbreacher)

Initiative (play enough bodies to take back Initiative, especially with evasion... this one might be easy because they annihilate their own hand for tempo while you play 30ish creatures)

Scam (play GY hate, play enough redundancy that you outlast them if they keep 2-for-1 ing themselves)

Chalice/Moon (play disenchant bears, diversify mana & cmcs, Vial seems good vs both)

Saga artifact decks (play mass artifact hate in the 75, not only Rec Sage effects)

Between Scam, Beans, Reanimator, and Initiative there are a lot of tier 1 decks cheating on curve playing high CMC effects early, so cards like Lavinia and Containment Priest seem good in the 75.

Edit: If black is a secondary color (eg GBwu for Bowmasters), you could consider playing the 1BBB tutor. It puts anything 1-4 cmc directly into play! i.e. most of your deck. They have to decide to counter without any idea what you could be getting. You should have enough fodder for the Bargain cost.

pettdan

12-28-2023, 05:57 PM

I wanted to keep the comment readable & focused on the main idea. I'll repost it.
I see, thank you!

In the current meta, strategies to build around:

So, this is pretty much how I built my current deck, and how I usually go about it, but it could do with working on this by writing it out and especially I'd like to find out if there are any really good answers, answers that are so good that they merit taking the deck in a certain direction just to be able to include them. Which I may not be able to do here, but at least it's a start. Well, there is Meltdown which I feel has the potential to be such a card. And also, I didn't include it here, but Test of Talents to get with Spellseeker is another such high potential card, I think.
Anyway, I went through this commenting on my recent build, but also trying to think wider.

Bowmasters (avoid too many X/1s and value "draw" effects, play your own Bowmasters)

- WUBG: Here I run 4 StPs, 2 Solitudes, 2 Bowmasters, 1 Plague Engineer (briefly had a second in the sideboard) and then Spellseeker to find more of them through Recruiter. Also Lagrella temporarily exiles Bowmasters or kills the token.
- x/1s and cantrips: I cut down from 6-7 Coatls/Stridges to 3, and considering if Abundant Growth may be problematic. Not sure where I should end up on Coatls/Stridges, hopefully testing will tell. Could perhaps run more of these since they tend to draw into the answers even if they die on etb against Bowmasters.
- with red splash, I think Fury is a pretty good additional answer. And Granger Guildmage, perhaps, probably not.
- GWB: could try a GWB build since it doesn't use cantrips. I just never get around to playing a list of this, it's difficult to build.
- other potential answers: it seems to me like Jitte would be a good way to machine gun down any opposing Bowmasters.
- other cards to avoid: unfortunately, I'm very low on Mother of Runes, Birds of Paradise, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Scryb Ranger with Bowmasters one of the most popular creatures to run. But Plague Engineer was having a similar effect prior to that, and Fury also has i suppose.

Beans (play disenchant bears, play draw hate like Bowmasters, Leovold, Hullbreacher)
Yeah, discussed this a few posts up, seems like a decent approach. Also may try to jam my own Beanstalks later, we'll see. You can run Gaddock to stop Beanstalk control, while relying on Fury, Solitude, Titania to trigger it yourself (and GSZ + FoW that get stuck behind Gaddock). Perhaps, maybe not.

Initiative (play enough bodies to take back Initiative, especially with evasion... this one might be easy because they annihilate their own hand for tempo while you play 30ish creatures)
- haste: I should try to fit a haste beater like Questing Beast. Kaldra Compleat would also do.
- initative: I run an initative creature myself, to recruiter for, but I could see adding a green one to occasionally GSZ for.
- evasion: Coatl seems great here, Kaldra Compleat might also be great.
- other potential answers: there was a sideboardable BB spell, iirc, that exiles an attacker and creates a copy until eot which results in gaining the initiative. I forget it's name.
I think it's going to be very easy to be run over here so a haste attacker might be important. But also, I'm leaning towards a fairly removal-heavy deck, where recruiters and Spellseeker find more removal, and then if you can keep the board clear, any attacker will be able to steal the initiative. But that's going to be hard to achieve.

Scam (play GY hate, play enough redundancy that you outlast them if they keep 2-for-1 ing themselves)
- cheap removal: I feel like StP and Solitude are quite important here, offering good answers to cantrip into (if they discarded the first one).
- againsts discard: Eternal Witness can bring back any answer to a reanimated threat that was discarded.
- graveyard interaction: not sure if I should board into Leylines but it's an option. And I have maindeck Endurance. Sometimes I run a Cling to Dust or Nihil Spellbomb to increase t1 interaction, but they'll probably have plenty of discard, I expect, to clear the path.
- stealing threats: Gilded Drake could help against for example an early reanimated Troll. Charming Prince works out if they discarded and reanimated your creatures.
- bouncing reanimated spells: Venser, Barrin and Teferi are all pretty great at bouncing reanimated creatures. I didn't run much of these now, but having one copy to recruiter for is very good. Barrin offers a card advantage engine (coupled with Karakas), while Venser offers a potential soft-lock (coupled with Karakas), not sure which I prefer. Probably Barrin due to the 3 cmc.
In this matchup I think a mix of removal and Coatl/Strix is the most easy inclusion, and probably a bouncer to recruiter for, because reanimation tends to be answered by early discard.

Chalice/Moon (play disenchant bears, diversify mana & cmcs, Vial seems good vs both)
I don't know how updated lists look now, but I heard a little discussion (on, I believe it was, Everyday Eternal). But yes, Vials are probably good, there's disenchant bears to tutor for, FoW/FoN to stop early lock-pieces and then plenty of removal to hopefully establish a leading board presence but it will be difficult to find the right mix of interaction. The card-drawing hate I'm running for Beanstalk decks will be dead though.
- mana-fixing: Vial and Abundant Growth provide some resilience against Moon effects.
- artifact/enchantment removal: currently preboarded with double Loran, with potential for Karakas-bouncing. I currently run a Force of Vigor in the sideboard, but it could turn into Kataki which would be worse for this matchup.
- other sideboard options: Blue Elemental Blasts are pretty good here, I only play one now but can recruiter for it. May be worth playing a second, testing will show.

Saga artifact decks (play mass artifact hate in the 75, not only Rec Sage effects)
Again, double Loran with Karakas-bouncing is a potentially very good answer here. Also Lagrella can kill of tokens. Force of Vigor in the sideboard is also relevant, but I would like to run some stronger silverbullet against these decks.
- WURG: Spellseeker into Meltdown from the sideboard is the most attractive solution to me, I think.

Between Scam, Beans, Reanimator, and Initiative there are a lot of tier 1 decks cheating on curve playing high CMC effects early, so cards like Lavinia and Containment Priest seem good in the 75.
Yeah, Lavinia and Similarly Gaddock are quite potent. I think I need to test both to see which I like better. I expect that when playing against Beanstalk decks, the game will last until they have 6 lands and then they'll just ignore Lavinia. Similarly, storm decks can hit 4 lands in play to ignore Lavinia, while Gaddock must be answered.

Edit: If black is a secondary color (eg GBwu for Bowmasters), you could consider playing the 1BBB tutor. It puts anything 1-4 cmc directly into play! i.e. most of your deck. They have to decide to counter without any idea what you could be getting. You should have enough fodder for the Bargain cost.
It's an interesting consideration, I should probably add it to the primer. I think few versions will be able to hit BBB though, but a black-centered version could. Also, if running Scryb Ranger and Birds of Paradise, it's possible to get that mana, but unreliably still. It would allow tutoring for Minsc & Boo, for example.

I'll probably be back to update this because there's a lot to consider here.

Come to think of it, the double Loran I run now (I mentioned a couple of times) are actually highly synergetic with the card-drawing hatebears, letting you turn Loran's symmetric card draw into anti-symmetric, card draw for yourself only, or to get extra triggers from Bowmasters.

FTW

12-28-2023, 06:32 PM

Sounds like you've thought out a lot of answers.

Loran bounce and Force of Vigor are a bit slow at answering the go-wide artifact decks like Karn Forge or 8cast. You could Spellseeker for Meltdown, but something like Collector Ouphe or Kataki, War's Wage might be nice to have (maybe SB) on top of the double Loran.

You make a good point for why Gaddock Teeg is a more permanent answer than Lavinia, especially with a slow clock and no LD. Then you just need to build around Teeg: no GSZ, board out FoW in some matches.
Lavinia is still good at slowing down those decks to your fair pace. It also trumps some random combos like Rhinos and Mississippi River.

I've been thinking about the viability of a version with 4 Hushbringer + some number of Phyrexian Dreadnought, since Hushbringer hates on a lot of the meta.
You can still play a lot of non-ETB hatebears (Meddling Mage, Lavinia, Teeg, Outland Liberator, Collector Ouphe, Scavenging Ooze, Thalia, Ethersworn Canonist, Sanctum Prelate, Leovold, Trygon Predator, Hullbreacher, Opposition Agent, Plague Engineer, Grist, Sheoldred, Meren, Glen Elendra, Shalai..).

With Dreadnought the challenge is also finding ways to make the combo pieces not dead when you don't have them. Aether Vial lets you combo Dreadnought + Dreadnought, a way to go off without Hushbringer. Pitch tutors like Fauna Shaman are great at smoothing variance, either finding the 2nd piece or pitching a useless piece for something needed. Giver of Runes could protect the creature combo & creature tutors while not dying to X/1 hate. Dreadnought is also inherently great at enabling mechanics like Delirium and Morbid/Descend (1-mana suicidal artifact creature). Traverse the Ulvenwald gets easier to use. Maybe you play Delighted Halfling as the mana dork: it dodges Bowmasters, casts Dreadnought, and fixes for the legendary hatebears. However it does not activate Fauna Shaman or cast Traverse, so it has limitations. Varolz would give beatdown value from Dreadnoughts in graveyard.

pettdan

12-28-2023, 06:40 PM

The Hushbringer list needs a draft before I can say much more about it, I think, at least right now. But I may come back to that.

I usually play Ouphe but cut it for Force of Vigor the other day. Not sure why now, hmm. Probably will change it back. Especially since the ring is answered by Ouphe. Hmm, it may be that I changed ouphe into Gaddock, since they sometimes play a similar role (well against Storm, they sometimes do overlap a bit, vs Turbo Forge they do).

Here's a list posted in the Esper Vial discord recently. It's pretty close to what I have been trying, with still a new configuration and especially 4 Reanimate, 4 Troll. Adding it to the primer.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/6043231#online

FTW

01-04-2024, 07:08 PM

I've been toying around with a Hushbringer brew. The rough shell is there but it hasn't quite come together.

Current draft: MOST Dreadbringer

//Artifacts: 4
4 Aether Vial

//Creatures: 30
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Delighted Halfling
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Hushbringer
4 Fauna Shaman
3 Meddling Mage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Outland Liberator
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Lazav, the Multifarious
1 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Grist, the Hunger Tide
1 Shalai, Voice of Plenty

//Spells: 9
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Traverse the Ulvenwald
2 Legolas's Quick Reflexes

//Lands: 17
4 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Karakas

//Sideboard: 14
2 Deafening Silence
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Containment Priest
1 Lavinia, Azorius Renegade
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Hullbreacher
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Plague Engineer
1 Peacekeeper

//Companion: 1
1 Jegantha, the Wellspring

Dreadnought + Hushbringer = 12/12

Vial + Dreadnought + Dreadnought = 12/12

Lazav + Dreadnought = 12/12

Varolz + Dreadnought = +12/+12 to any creature

Solo Dreadnought = +2 Delirium (to turn on Traverse sooner)

Solo Hushbringer hates on Initiative, Scam, Bowmasters, Thassa's Oracle, Goblins, Yorion decks (Beans, 5c Zenith, D&T) etc.

Fauna Shaman can either assemble the combos or pitch a dead piece to find something useful, reducing variance. Pitching Dreadnought is useful later for Lazav, Varolz, and Delirium.

With only Fauna Shaman + Dreadnought (no other creatures in hand), you can discard Dreadnought to get Lazav and have a 12/12 that cost only 1 card (not 2-for-1).

Legolas's Quick Reflexes combos with Fauna Shaman for a 2nd activation & Shocks something. It also protects Dreadnought and can be used precombat as "Can't be removed this turn. When this attacks, deal infiniteen damage to opponent's best creature". It does the same with Lazav-Nought or Varolz-scavenged Nought. Very powerful trick with 12/12s.

To avoid nonbos the deck is on non-ETB hatebears. There are still a lot of playable ones out there. Most effects are 1-sided. Most are self-explanatory. Ooze vs grave decks and as a big beater late. Thalia slows down spell-based decks. Teeg disrupts many combo & control decks. Grist kills things. Leovold vs Beans and other draw-heavy fair blue decks. Hullbreacher for a 2nd effect. Prelate vs spell-based decks. Ouphe vs artifacts. Containment Priest vs the usual creature cheating suspects. Faerie as a faster answer vs Reanimator and Oops.

Meddling Mage can be either offensive or defensive. Without FoW, it's there to provide some combo hate in game 1. Against fair decks it can be set to opponent's best answer for Dreadnought.

Lazav & Varolz combo with Dreadnought but also have utility with other creatures. Fauna Shaman can Entomb specific creatures to graveyard. Faerie Macabre puts itself in the grave and then can scavenge onto something.

Jegantha is free to include in game 1. Extra threat. Big body. Creature to discard to Fauna Shaman from an empty hand.

Mangara is outdated tech, but Loran, Knight of Autumn, Palace Jailer, and Solitude don't work with Hushbringer. You can still do the EOT Vial trick & bounce with Karakas.

Overall there's a bunch of tech. It has a lot of ways to deal with Bowmasters, Initiative, and Monarch. Hushbringer itself hates on a lot of Tier 1 strategies. But I don't know if this is cohesive enough. Does it need more tutors? More actual threats? More answers? Is the mana stable enough to support this many colors?

Edit: Perhaps Eladamri's Call is more reliable than Traverse. Traverse makes you lose to so much grave hate (e.g. Surgical or Soul-Guide on 1 card to remove Delirium).
Considering -3 Traverse, +2 Eladamri's Call +1 GSZ

pettdan

01-06-2024, 11:57 AM

I haven't looked through that properly yet but it's nice to see a list, thanks FTW! I did see that there was no Mother, Giver or Safekeeper though. I think if you go along any path where you need to 1-for-2 to get a Dreadnought to stay in play, then you kind of need to be able to protect it. There are 3 Meddling Mages though, and you can name removal so they seem pretty valuable for that purpose and for locking down combo otherwise. And there's Legolas's Quick Reflexes so, well, seems worth testing.
I'll read more cosely soon!

Comments on the list, update:
- Traverse seems very difficult to get delirium for. There seemed to be few instants and sorceries. I think it probably needs Bauble or Strix or some other permanent type that tends to leave play.
- I usually like Once Upon a Time, so I'd probably play that over Traverse. But it's not so fun to signal the combo.
- Two basics seems like it's a little low, in case you want to be able to use Traverses that haven't been activated with delirium yet.
- One potential threat here is that Uro from an opponent just stays in play, it doesn't die, and when it starts attacking it's going to be difficult, perhaps. So you may want even more than the 4 StPs to answer it. Karakas does actually answer it well with Hushbringer in play, they don't get extra draws from it. Maybe play double Karakas. I usually do anyway.
- I'd probably try to fit 4 Abundant Growth and a sb Yorion, because that guaranteed late-game card advantage finisher is pretty useful. Even with Hushbringer potentially stopping the flickering of Growths.
- You have very little card advantage, I wonder if there's something that could be added. Sylvan Library isn't great against Bowmasters, but it is a consideration. I would't mind seeing 2 Leovolds, it tends to provide some card advantage.
- Your deck doesn't seem particularly mana-hungry, I wonder if Birds of Paradise are needed. But they do discard well to Fauna Shaman when they aren't needed, so it's ok. But I'd consider going for 1 Dryad Arbor and 3 GSZ instead.
- I don't usually play a single Thalia, and if I play Thalia I usually make sure to play Wasteland also. I'd consider if you can add Wasteland.
- A single Ethersworn Canonist is usually more impactful than a single Thalia, I think. Also, it's Bowmaster-proof.
Well, those are some initial thoughts on the list, something to consider.
Like you say, Hushbringer hating on several decks is pretty sweet. It's difficult to see that it's worth giving up etb-effects for, but if you can find card advantage from non-creatures that might weigh up for the lost value. Not sure what that would be, though.

---

Anyway, this example of Swift Reconfiguration combo was posted in the Maverick discord, thought I'd share it here also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhZ3EfOuYgk

FTW

01-06-2024, 10:12 PM

Thanks for the detailed comments!

I don't usually play a single Thalia, and if I play Thalia I usually make sure to play Wasteland also. I'd consider if you can add Wasteland.
A single Ethersworn Canonist is usually more impactful than a single Thalia, I think. Also, it's Bowmaster-proof.

Good points. Canonist seems better. Easy swap.

I haven't looked through that properly yet but it's nice to see a list, thanks FTW! I did see that there was no Mother, Giver or Safekeeper though. I think if you go along any path where you need to 1-for-2 to get a Dreadnought to stay in play, then you kind of need to be able to protect it. There are 3 Meddling Mages though, and you can name removal so they seem pretty valuable for that purpose and for locking down combo otherwise. And there's Legolas's Quick Reflexes so, well, seems worth testing.

I originally had 3 Giver of Runes but replaced them with 2 Legolas + 1 Halfling. Legolas seemed very strong with Fauna Shaman and 12/12s. Maybe the deck still needs Giver too.

I picked Giver over the others because it survives Bowmasters. The colorless protection is also useful against many format answers (Aether Spellbomb, Walking Ballista, large constructs). Thoughts?

- Traverse seems very difficult to get delirium for. There seemed to be few instants and sorceries. I think it probably needs Bauble or Strix or some other permanent type that tends to leave play.

Agreed. I commented on it at the bottom. You've convinced me to drop Traverse.

Btw Bauble is not needed. Dreadnought reads "1: put artifact & creature in the GY". It IS the permanent type that leaves play, without needing a support card like Bauble. That was the original motivation for Traverse. If you don't have a Dreadnought combo already, Dreadnought has a secondary mode of giving Delirium to tutor some other important card (or find Lazav to be 12/12). Land is easy, so you only need 1 more type between instant, sorcery, planeswalker (Grist), or enchantment (SB). That seemed feasible. But it's very easily disrupted by any interaction, so it's not reliable.

Maybe -3 Traverse -1 Birds +2 Eladamri's Call +2 Green Sun's Zenith?

I usually like Once Upon a Time, so I'd probably play that over Traverse. But it's not so fun to signal the combo.

Normally I'd use OUAT but it seems less consistent at assembling combos or finding toolbox creatures. Eladamri's Call first? Maybe both OUAT and Eladamri's Call?

One potential threat here is that Uro from an opponent just stays in play, it doesn't die, and when it starts attacking it's going to be difficult, perhaps. So you may want even more than the 4 StPs to answer it. Karakas does actually answer it well with Hushbringer in play, they don't get extra draws from it. Maybe play double Karakas. I usually do anyway.

Opponent using Hushbringer to make Uro is a risk. At least they lose a draw. My thinking was that with 4 Dreadnought 4 Swords 1 Karakas you have more ways to come out ahead than they have ways to make Uro. If you have Dreadnought and they have Uro, they can't attack into a 12/12 (miss the draw trigger), you trample over Uro, and precombat Legolas will kill Uro. So overall Hushbringer should help more than hurt. Thoughts?

That is the core premise of the deck. If Hushbringer favors opponent more than it favors you, then there's little reason to play Hushbringer + Dreadnought combo instead of other cards in the same shell. The primary goal is to benefit from Hushbringer assymetrically: have it hate on opponent more than it helps them, run hatebears and engines that are immune to it, and get 1-mana 12/12s.

Your deck doesn't seem particularly mana-hungry, I wonder if Birds of Paradise are needed. But they do discard well to Fauna Shaman when they aren't needed, so it's ok. But I'd consider going for 1 Dryad Arbor and 3 GSZ instead.

Birds is fixing more than ramp. Otherwise it would be 4 Halfling or 4 Hierarch, but they can't fix for everything.

Dryad Arbor was excluded on purpose. The goal was to avoid Bowmasters, especially on land. Only 5 X/1s. Birds also dies to Bowmasters, but at least it fixes colors to compensate for the risk. The list seems like it needs fixing more than ramp. Is there enough fixing without Birds? Thoughts?

Abundant Growth is one option, like you said. It doesn't discard to Fauna Shaman and wants Yorion/flicker effects (nonbo with Hushbringer). It also walks into flash Orcish Bowmasters -> kill your 2/2. Suddenly a lot more creatures are vulnerable to Bowmasters. Not sure Abundant Growth is the best answer. It didn't feel right for what the rest of the build is trying to accomplish.

You have very little card advantage, I wonder if there's something that could be added. Sylvan Library isn't great against Bowmasters, but it is a consideration. I would't mind seeing 2 Leovolds, it tends to provide some card advantage.

Yes, this is a big problem. To avoid nonbos I have no ETB draws or ETB value. Avoiding keyword "draw" also dodges Bowmasters. But then there's no card advantage either. The deck needs some other source. Ideally in tutorable creature form.

I considered Meren, but Hushbringer stops Meren from gaining experience counters.

Maybe Edric, Spymaster of Trest? Tireless Tracker?

Or something else that gets cards without the "draw" word? Lead the Stampede?
Wrenn and Realmbreaker?
Questing Druid?
Duskwatch Recruiter?
Yidris, Maelstrom Wielder?
Caparocti Sunborn?
Dragonlord Ojutai?
Ellie and Alan, Paleontologists?

Some of these are interesting.

Like you say, Hushbringer hating on several decks is pretty sweet. It's difficult to see that it's worth giving up etb-effects for, but if you can find card advantage from non-creatures that might weigh up for the lost value. Not sure what that would be, though.

That's the core question of the deck. Is Hushbringer good enough to give up ETB effects and 8 slots? Otherwise, even with the most optimized shell, you could just cut Hushbringer and Dreadnought, run a more compact wincon, and have more flex slots and all the best ETB effects.

Edited deck:

//Companion: 1
1 Jegantha, the Wellspring

//Artifacts: 4
4 Aether Vial

//Creatures: 30
3 Birds of Paradise
3 Giver of Runes
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Hushbringer
4 Fauna Shaman
3 Meddling Mage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Outland Liberator
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Lazav, the Multifarious
1 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Grist, the Hunger Tide
1 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath

//Spells: 10
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Legolas's Quick Reflexes
2 Eladamri's Call
2 Green Sun's Zenith

//Lands: 17
4 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Karakas

//Sideboard: 14
2 Deafening Silence
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Containment Priest
1 Lavinia, Azorius Renegade
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Hullbreacher
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Plague Engineer
1 Peacekeeper

For now Uro is the card engine. It's GSZable. It can work with Hushbringer or without it. Lazav can attack as Uro too.

pettdan

01-07-2024, 03:19 PM

Just some initial comments here. I'll read again later.

Thanks for the detailed comments!

You're very welcome, of course!

Yes, this is a big problem. To avoid nonbos I have no ETB draws or ETB value. Avoiding keyword "draw" also dodges Bowmasters. But then there's no card advantage either. The deck needs some other source. Ideally in tutorable creature form.

I considered Meren, but Hushbringer stops Meren from gaining experience counters.

I think Meren is a quite good card advantage engine (it used to be very good, felt like the most game-winning card in the deck, when I played in paper before the pandemic, but I'm not sure if it still could be), getting experience counters is just a bonus. I think it's worth testing, but it's always difficult to find the space.

Normally I'd use OUAT but it seems less consistent at assembling combos or finding toolbox creatures. Eladamri's Call first? Maybe both OUAT and Eladamri's Call?

I think Eladamri's Call is too expensive, paying 2 mana to find a creature is probably too much. Could be wrong though, it's certainly ok to test it. But usually, paying G for GSZ used to be expensive. I think Fiend Artisan may be better. It overlaps well with Fauna Shaman (in the sense that they both require an answer next turn or you get a great advantage, so they both "tax" opponent's removal), and if you want to tutor for Dreadnought or Hushbringer, they are only 1-2 mana so quite decent to use Artisan for.

Btw, I think OUAT is really good (when you can find threats and answers, and there's a high density of hits) and something to probably include, that t1 find a land is great, and instant speed searching at EOT is also great, but you kind of need some instants so you can leave mana open when you pass the turn and have a couple of options.

Another thing I considered was that the blue hot creature, too expensive on MTGO, with built in Stifle might be good here. But iirc it would remove the trample from dreadnought. Tishana's Tidebinder, I think.

Edit: Since you want non-creature card-advantage, probably, it may be good to look for planeswalkers that synergize well with the deck. Teferi TR is an obvious one, it lets you put together any combo undisturbed. I was also thinking of Minsc and Boo, because it's a generally great threat, but also sacrificing a Dreadnought to deal lots of damage and draw lots of cards is going to be good. And planeswalkers make mana dork translate better into powerful threats (because you can't answer mana dork and planeswalker with the same sweeper, ramping into a creature that is answered by a Terminus is such a bad moment).

FTW

01-07-2024, 09:00 PM

Fiend Artisan is a good idea. It also works well with Legolas and as an alternate wincon. It also provides value for redundant Hushbringers or hatebears on board, converting them into more useful cards.

I added Meren too. You make a good point that Meren is still strong without the experience counters. Sometimes Hushbringer won't be out and you can get counters! With even 1 counter, Meren replays end of turn Dreadnought!

Meren also works with the graveyard sub-theme (Lazav, Varolz, Fiend Artisan, Grist mill) better than Uro does. It's a good target for Fiend Artisan, getting back the creature you sacrificed at end of turn.

Updated list:
//Companion: 1
1 Jegantha, the Wellspring

//Artifacts: 4
4 Aether Vial

//Creatures: 27
3 Birds of Paradise
3 Giver of Runes
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Hushbringer
4 Fauna Shaman
2 Fiend Artisan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Outland Liberator
1 Likeness Looter
1 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Grist, the Hunger Tide
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth

//Spells: 11
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Legolas's Quick Reflexes
2 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Once Upon A Time

//Lands: 18
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor

//Sideboard: 14
2 Deafening Silence
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Containment Priest
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Plague Engineer
1 Peacekeeper

Edit: Maybe Likeness Looter is better than Lazav here. It flies and provides some digging, though it's weaker to Bowmaster.
Varolz scavenging Dreadnought onto Hushbringer to make a 13/14 flying lifelink is underrated tech that can get you back in a game where regular Dreadnought gets raced/blocked.

Edit2: Tested a few games. The mana is very weak and the variance is very high. Cleaned up the mana, mostly cutting blue and adding OUAT.
Likeness Looter replaces Lazav for superior card selection.

pettdan

01-08-2024, 06:35 AM

Meren also works with the graveyard sub-theme (Lazav, Varolz, Fiend Artisan, Grist mill) better than Uro does. It's a good target for Fiend Artisan, getting back the creature you sacrificed at end of turn.

I didn't get as far as commenting on Uro yet, but I really liked it in the deck because it's a great threat, even without Hushbringer synergy. However, I also think the manabase doesn't support it. 2 Tropical Islands isn't enough, even with BoP support. Well, testing may tell otherwise.

Edit: Maybe Likeness Looter is better than Lazav here. It flies and provides some digging, though it's weaker to Bowmaster.
Varolz scavenging Dreadnought onto Hushbringer to make a 13/14 flying lifelink is underrated tech that can get you back in a game where regular Dreadnought gets raced/blocked.

My first thoughts are that Lazav is better, because it survives Bowmaster and it also can be protected with your Karakas. I think next thing to consider is how to deal with opposing Karakas to clear the way for Lazav. At 1 copy it's not that important, probably. And even if Lazav is bounced, that's not that bad. But Wasteland seems like it might be good for that purpose, but also as a way to mess with opponent. Something to consider later in testing, perhaps.

Edit2: Tested a few games. The mana is very weak and the variance is very high. Cleaned up the mana, mostly cutting blue and adding OUAT.
Likeness Looter replaces Lazav for superior card selection.

OuaT is great, helping set up initial mana, and also Abundant Growth makes for great manabases. But we already discussed that. Another way to improve your mana base is to cut BoP for Prismatic Vista. BoP accellerates, but often having a reliable manabase is more valuable. Just something tot consider. You can always cut BoPs one by one for lands.

FTW

01-09-2024, 04:16 PM

I tested it more. It's just not good. Too high variance, too durdly. Seems better to just play Dreadnought in a blue shell or just play regular MOST.

I thought the creature tutors would help both assemble 12/12s or convert redundant cards to matchup-specific silver bullets, but in practice it's still too much variance.

You're the MOST expert here. Is the MOST shell not conducive to A+B creature combos? Or at least not at 4x copies? If there is a combo, it seems like it needs to take 2-4 slots and win the game on the spot instead of just making a 2-for-1 fatty.

Even the Swift Reconfiguration combo at least threatens to win immediately, which each piece alone advances your plan (removal or ramp green for the tutor engines).

It seems so much better to just cut the combo and then get to run good cards.

pettdan

01-10-2024, 05:02 PM

I tested it more. It's just not good. Too high variance, too durdly. Seems better to just play Dreadnought in a blue shell or just play regular MOST.

I kind of expected that. The main problem with Hushbringer-combo is that Hushbringer prevents you from playing all the best creatures in Legacy (with some notable exception, as we discussed). Otoh, you get some really nice hate against decks that use those creatures, but the problem is that it's not a great strategy, recently, to try to protect a creature and keep it in play. It's much easier to just play card advantage threats. I mean I do return to Hushbringer decks once in a while, but I haven't figured out much yet. I guess it's important to compensate for that disadvantage by playing for example planeswalkers, as discussed briefly above. Or other card advantage engines, perhaps. Edit: I think you should probably also build with the assumption that Hushbringer will be removed. So you can play a couple of creatures with etb-effects that don't have synergy, like Strix/Coatl and I think Yorion is a good idea.

I thought the creature tutors would help both assemble 12/12s or convert redundant cards to matchup-specific silver bullets, but in practice it's still too much variance.

There's a lot of removal that answers a 12/12 cmc 1 artifact creature. It probably kind of needs haste, and still there's a lot of instant speed removal, and most of it exiles. The problem with Fauna Shaman is that it's not reliable as a tutor, you often get to use it but not always. So it's great when you can use the recruiters to find important cards. But with 4 Fauna Shamans and 2 Fiend Artisans, it seems like it should be pretty consistent. But you also need a game plan that works to just draw into, topdecking, I suppose. It's really nice to have creatures with card drawing and etb tutor effects, because it gives you a bunch of action when you draw into things. Perhaps. And that's pretty much what one needs to give up on when playing Hushbringer. So playing cards like Uro seems really important, since it's both a draw engine with Hushbringer, and it kind of combos with the Hushbringer too. Well, if the opponent is sitting with an StP in hand, then it's kind of a disadvantage that you don't get an etb draw. So Karakas becomes really important, to protect it.

You're the MOST expert here. Is the MOST shell not conducive to A+B creature combos? Or at least not at 4x copies? If there is a combo, it seems like it needs to take 2-4 slots and win the game on the spot instead of just making a 2-for-1 fatty.

First, I think in a way we're all MOST experts, at least the players who play creature heavy decks. Especially the players playing creature heavy decks with some variaty of creature tutors in them. Just wanted to add that. We're all MOST experts. :) Actually, at my LGS, oh and also Vickas in this thread, has been playing Stiflenought MOST, so you could have a look at his lists, I think there's probably one or two here (should be linked in the primer).

Edit: I couldn't find that section in the primer so I'll write a little comment on it under the possbile combos section, right away.

But, anyway, when I've tested briefly different configurations, I've always felt like you want to minimize the combo, making it 2 cards preferably, and making sure they are individually good. I'll return and update if I find the text in the primer on this topic, I have been writing about it but not sure if it was lost in my notes when my phone crashed. So for example Heloid + Ballista combo seems nice, because Ballista itself can clear the board and kill planeswalkers, and Heliod is hard to remove and gains life and puts counters on creatures while waiting to combo. And yet there needs to be more synergies to be worth putting it in a deck, and Ballista needs to be well positioned. It's kind of power-crept out of the format now I think, although it's a good way to answer Bowmasters so maybe it's making it back again, not sure.

The best combo in MOST so far, for me, has been Aluren, because it requires very few deck building changes and it's a single card you can put in the deck and have an instant speed win that can't be stopped by removal. I've been thinking a lot about playing Cavern Harpy during the last year, it's a great grind tool by itself. However, Aluren is a 4 mana non-creature that does nothing by itself, so it has disadvantages too. But sandbagging a recruiter should be fairly doable, perhaps.

Even the Swift Reconfiguration combo at least threatens to win immediately, which each piece alone advances your plan (removal or ramp green for the tutor engines).

Yeah, I like Swift Configuration because it's both removal, protection and combo in one card. That flexibility makes it very useful even if you can't put together the combo. The weak part there is probably the Druid because 2 mana for a mana dork isn't great. It's not useless though.

It seems so much better to just cut the combo and then get to run good cards.

Yeah, I already answered that but that's what I've always experienced. I think there is a card that may change that though. Abdel + Animate Dead is a pretty good Worldgorger-like combo with pieces that are individually good. Abdel flickers your creatures for card advantage.

Edit:
Suggestions:
Maybe Hushbringer + Dreadnought with Varolz backup can be run as a small synergy package, just putting them in a regular MOST deck. It's still going to feel not great to draw into them, but it will be an additional strategy that can be relied upon. I feel like Varolz is the best actual threat there, because Varolz lets you for a very low cost make any creature already in play get game-finishing potential, it can attack immediately. And you use a resource in your graveyard so it isn't costing you card advantage to do this. Maybe with Goblin Engineer to set it up. And/or Fauna Shaman. A Goblin Engineer toolbox is quite potent.

pettdan

01-11-2024, 10:02 AM

I started a new Youtube-channel to upload recorded games, and here's the first video of me playtesting WUBG MOST/Vial on MTGO: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqSqrmZKZk4

The above list was with [edit: nope, it wasn't a WURG list as I first recorded, this was a WUBG list:
WUBG version with Lagrella, Leovold/Hullbreacher/Bowmasters, Ephemerate-Spellseeker-Witness and a Passageway Seer. I tried to build to have relevance against Up the Beanstalk decks with extra card drawing-hate and an initiative creature to help with the control matchup.]

The purpose of this right now is to run some tests of different lists to evaluate which colors and which threats and answers seem most promising at the moment. Edit: oh and the purpose of recording this is just to show people who are curious how the deck and different versions play out, how synergies work, and enabling it as a source for further discussion for anyone who is curious about exploring creature-centric control and midrange decks, typically using Aether Vial (but I don't think it's actually central to the archetype) and historically starting with green which had the best creature tutors.

I will be improving the quality as I evaluate some details of this process. This was recorded without proper camera and microphone, around midnight so it's dark and I'm a bit tired. Also, the laptop lags a lot when I record games, so at times my clicks aren't registered by the client. The first upload took 2 hours, then Youtube told me the file was discarded because I hadn't validated my account. For the second upload, I converted the file to make the upload in 15 minutes instead, which probably influenced the quality negatively.

Note that these test games are usually against inexperienced opponents. Or people trying out some new decks. But I think that will do for testing, for now.

Edit:
Uploaded another video then shared the list with a nice player (huntinggjornersen on MTGO, idontknow/abgshb on discord) who just 5-0d with it so here it is: https://www.mtgo.com/decklist/legacy-league-2024-01-127779
Many other edits too, I keep calling Hullbreacher Hushbringer instead, but it was Hullbreacher I included to fight the card draw from Beanstalk decks.
If someone wants to try the list, here are some md flex slots: 1 Loran, 2 Hullbreacher, 1 StP, 1 Leovold, 1 Seer (the initiative creature, I can never remember its name), 1 Wasteland (maybe add 1 Lorien Revealed), 1 Plague Engineer (seems worth, for Goblins, also Welder, Bowmaster), 1 Gaddock

FTW

01-15-2024, 07:18 AM

Looking at your comments about Aluren hybrid and the other Aluren thread, a MOST-Aluren shell could be promising. I'm convinced that MOST cannot absorb the variance inherent to Dreadnought decks, but perhaps it could support an Aluren-type combo.

You can easily support the Recruiter of the Guard 1-card combos, e.g.
Recruiter of the Guard -> Niambi, Esteemed Speaker -> Cavern Harpy -> Orcish Bowmasters -> infinite damage, infinite life, amass infinity

Bowmasters also creates token fodder, which could be useful for black tutors like Diabolic Intent or Beseech the Mirror (which can cast Aluren from library).

Example:

//Lands: 19
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Savannah
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Karakas

//Spells: 18
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Prismatic Ending
3 Living Wish

//Enchantments: 4
4 Aluren

//Planeswalkers: 3
3 Teferi, Time Raveler

//Creatures: 16
4 Delighted Halfling
3 Orcish Bowmasters
1 Cavern Harpy
1 Niambi, Esteemed Speaker
1 Samwise the Stouthearted
1 Meddling Mage
4 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath

//Sideboard: 15
1 Acererak the Archlich
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Endurance
1 Solitude
1 Containment Priest
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Loran of the Third Path
1 Skyclave Apparition
1 Plague Engineer
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Deafening Silence

This version is white-heavy for Teferi protection & premium removal vs hate.

Could try to force Jegantha as a companion.

This could also work as 80-card Yorion. Yorion adds a lot of synergy. But it's also harder to find Aluren in 80-cards. Don't know if it's worth it.

Black-heavy version is also possible, using discard and black tutors instead of white removal and Teferi

//Spells: 20
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Diabolic Intent
3 Assassin's Trophy

//Enchantments: 4
4 Aluren

//Creatures: 16
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Orcish Bowmasters
1 Cavern Harpy
1 Niambi, Esteemed Speaker
1 Samwise the Stouthearted
4 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath

//Lands: 20
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
2 Island
2 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower

Does this still count as MOST? It's creature-based and uses creature tutors, ramp creatures, and a singleton toolbox. However it also looks more like generic fair Legacy.

pettdan

01-15-2024, 04:05 PM

I'm quite tired after travelling and was thinking of trying to test something new with the all access token tonight. So I won't go into the deck list now. But I was curious to dig up my old Aluren lists and link in the primer, and below.

Here's an old Aluren list. This is from before I dropped Fauna Shaman, but had started using Recruiter of the Guard. There are still many manadorks and they are pretty good for ramping into Aluren. But I would go much lighter on them today, for a more stable manabase.

https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32280-M-O-S-T-Merieke-Opposition-(Survival)-Tradewind-Rider&p=1064397&viewfull=1#post1064397

I'm convinced that MOST cannot absorb the variance inherent to Dreadnought decks, but perhaps it could support an Aluren-type combo.

Did you check Vicka's lists that are linked in the primer, as I suggested? They run Dreadnought as a 1 of, I think that doesn't influence variance much. But running 4 of Dreadnought and 4 of Hushbringer, that might be a bit difficult, I mean - obviously it is

By the way, I saw a 4 Uro + 2 Dreadnought + 3 Dress Down + 2-3 Stifle list today, not sure about the DD/Stifle numbers. I think it was in the last Legacy Challenge or some other MTGO tournament or possibly in the 5-0 deckdump.

Does this still count as MOST? It's creature-based and uses creature tutors, ramp creatures, and a singleton toolbox. However it also looks more like generic fair Legacy.

I think it's close to MOST, it's obviously not Vial but I would consider this more of an Aluren deck and a Nic Fit deck. Nic Fit since it plays the Nic Fit synergy pair of Therapy + Veteran. Aluren since the deck seems to focus on finding and enabling Aluren, with plenty of discard and cantrips to support it and with an limited alternative gameplan. But with the tutors and a few one ofs to tutor for, it certainly approaches and/or overlaps with MOST-territory.

FTW

01-15-2024, 07:33 PM

Yeah, there are many viable blue Dreadnought decks. I've also made Dreadnought + Hushbringer work in mono W (Urza's Saga, Oswald Fiddlebender, artifact aggro). I was just curious if it could work in MOST, but it seems not, at least not beyond a 1-of package.

What would make Aluren more of a MOST hybrid? If it dropped some spells and ran more creature tutors and alternate wins outside of the Aluren combo?

I think Vial does not make sense with Aluren since Aluren achieves a similar effect and Vial does not ramp out Aluren. Delighted Halfling or Abundant Growth seem good. Halfling ramps to Aluren and makes Teferi uncounterable (Teferi is important to protect the combo).

Recruiter is the best creature tutor since it is also a 1-card combo with Aluren, so it would make sense to build the toolbox around 4-of Recruiter.

After that, what would the next natural tutor be? Fauna Shaman does get all the relevant pieces but seems slow for Legacy (1GG, T, pass the turn vs 2W to get a creature in hand). Zenith doesn't find enough relevant cards. OUaT would be good. Maybe Fiend Artisan?

Living Wish is an elegant fit as the 2nd tutor. It works as an Aluren combo piece (find 1-card win like Acererak or Recruiter), it finds a toolbox card, or it can find a fair wincon. It means you start preboarded vs combo.

Edit maybe this GBwu pile:

//Creatures: 23
4 Delighted Halfling
4 Orcish Bowmasters
2 Fiend Artisan
1 Cavern Harpy
1 Niambi, Esteemed Speaker
1 Samwise the Stouthearted
1 Grand Abolisher
3 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Endurance
1 Lagrella, the Magpie
1 Grist, the Hunger Tide
1 Academy Rector

//Planeswalkers: 2
2 Teferi, Time Raveler

//Enchantments: 10
4 Abundant Growth
3 Aluren
3 Leyline Binding

//Spells: 8
3 Brainstorm
3 Living Wish
2 Once Upon A Time

//Lands: 18
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Prismatic Vista
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

//Sideboard: 15
1 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Solitude
1 Endurance
1 Containment Priest
1 Plague Engineer
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Loran of the Third Path
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sheoldred, the Apocalypse
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Deafening Silence

Lategame Fiend Artisan can 1-card combo with any creature fodder if allowed to untap twice
4GT, sac random creature: Academy Rector
Untap, 3GT, sac Rector: put Aluren & Recruiter of the Guard both uncounterably into play to start the combo chain

Although Aluren is the main plan, Living Wish & sideboarding accessing many toolbox tools and fair wincons.

pettdan

01-16-2024, 08:35 PM

Yeah, there are many viable blue Dreadnought decks. I've also made Dreadnought + Hushbringer work in mono W (Urza's Saga, Oswald Fiddlebender, artifact aggro). I was just curious if it could work in MOST, but it seems not, at least not beyond a 1-of package.

I'd like to keep the hope alive that there's a version with Hushbringer where you have some synergies like Uro and Dreadnought but also a good gameplan to grind a bit when there's no Hushbringer. And if Hushbringer is really well positioned, this pays off. And right now, it seems like Hushbringer is really good against Goblins and Initiative, which I hear are popular decks online. Maybe a bant Maverick deck with mana denial, knights and such, also Uro. I know, it's difficult, sure is

What would make Aluren more of a MOST hybrid? If it dropped some spells and ran more creature tutors and alternate wins outside of the Aluren combo?

I've just taken my regular list and added Harpy and 2 Aluren. The Aluren is a surprising late-game (or possible even t3 with ramp) surprise combo that's hard to interact with outside of counterspells. Edit: I think my point here is that each copy of Aluren takes one slot away from utility in some lists, while adding a potential combo win. There's not a whole lot of adjustments needed, but I try to trim down copies of cards that don't have synergy, while adding some that do. And I'm so curious to play with Cavern Harpy again, I think it might be good enough to earn a slot even without Aluren, because it's a 2 mana self-bounce effect, providing lots of card advantage opportunities, it can also block Murktide, for example, every turn, while bouncing other creatures for card advantage. And opponent can't destroy it with removal, they have to discard or counter it. If you have Vial, they basically can't touch this value engine, unless they catch you with some discard and Vial tapped.

Recruiter is the best creature tutor since it is also a 1-card combo with Aluren, so it would make sense to build the toolbox around 4-of I think Vial does not make sense with Aluren since Aluren achieves a similar effect and Vial does not ramp out Aluren. Delighted Halfling or Abundant Growth seem good. Halfling ramps to Aluren and makes Teferi uncounterable (Teferi is important to protect the combo).

I think Aluren is very similar to Vial so rather consider it to be Vial 5-6, for example. Similar to Vial, it lets you flash in any creature. Now unfortunately, it stops at 3, while vial goes to 5+, often for Yorion, Solitude, perhaps Fury. While Aluren gives multiple, even infinite use and enables combo win. Vial enables the same combo, but only once per turn. So, I wouldn't say it's a problem that Vial doesn't cast Aluren, it plays the same role of Aluren. I may need to polish that argument or view.

Recruiter is the best creature tutor since it is also a 1-card combo with Aluren, so it would make sense to build the toolbox around 4-of Recruiter.

After that, what would the next natural tutor be? Fauna Shaman does get all the relevant pieces but seems slow for Legacy (1GG, T, pass the turn vs 2W to get a creature in hand). Zenith doesn't find enough relevant cards. OUaT would be good. Maybe Fiend Artisan?

Living Wish is an elegant fit as the 2nd tutor. It works as an Aluren combo piece (find 1-card win like Acererak or Recruiter), it finds a toolbox card, or it can find a fair wincon. It means you start preboarded vs combo.

Not sure more than 4 Recruiters are needed. In a Yorion list, it's nice to have some Imperial Recruiters as well, I think. Artisan doesn't seem good with Vial or Aluren, they enable casting from hand, but it's ok to test.
Edit: Living Wish, along with other wishes, are always interesting options to try, but it tends to be slow. Otoh, there's Vial to compensate for the lost tempo, in some games. My intuitive first and best target for Living Wish is Karakas, because it's such a great tool for generating card advantage, utility and protecting resources. So it may be worth it to run 2 copies just to be able to have more reliable access to Karakas, a card we don't want to draw multiples (I mean, say 2 md Karakas and 1 sideboard to Wish for seems ok, while I don't like putting 3 Karakas into a 4c deck). Acererak or Recruiter could also be decent targets there, maybe some Fury/Solitude, maybe Tishana's Tidebinder. Maybe Haywire Mite, Faerie Maccabre.

Didn't check the list carefully yet, but I was happy to realize that Lagrella works wonderfully with Cavern Harpy, allowing you to flicker any creature multiple times regardless of colors.

pettdan

01-18-2024, 04:27 PM

I played a game with a Beanstalk version yesterday: https://youtu.be/3bu_mc_NlK8?si=wiiC8OoO_WlMi4bj

Quality may have been a bit worse, I have a better camera now but increased the volume a bit too much, I believe. Will try to find my microphone later.

That game was against Cloudpost, which I remember having felt like the most difficult matchup in the past. Basically, we have a slow clock and usually I don't run more than say 1 Wasteland. I sometimes run Magus of the Moon, even sometimes adding it in the 5th color with no land to cast it from (relying on Birds of Paradise, or nowadays Abundant Growth, or Vial to cast it). However, this was a WURG version so no reason not to play it, except for having sold it recently. Anyway, even with Magus in play it can be difficult to win, if they hit 4GG they get primeval titan and then they are close to casting giant eldrazi.

Well, anyway, the Beanstalk version naturally plays Leyline Binding which is an answer to both the giant Eldrazi and the One Ring, quite excellent. And since I last remember playing Cloudpost, there's also Solitude so quite many ways to answer Eldrazi. Free access is over now so I'll have to consider if I'm shopping Leyline Bindings or if the experiment is over for this time.

pettdan

01-19-2024, 08:59 AM

Huntinggjornersen tried this list yesterday with a 4-1 result in an MTGO league, losing to BUG Beanstalk. Quite interesting to me that a more oldschool Fauna Shaman list can have good results, been thinking about trying something just to get a feeling for how it feels today.

https://i.gyazo.com/2ba406cedea9accb114eafdfa4028d0c.png

FTW

01-20-2024, 01:33 PM

pettdan

01-20-2024, 04:53 PM

We were discussing viable (not necessarily Vialable) tutors earlier. Does the new card Archmage's Charm (GGG) work here?

The cost is a bit steep, but the modal nature seems very good for a toolbox deck like this. At instant speed, either:
1) Put any creature in hand from library
2) Put any land from library to play tapped
3) +1/+1 counter and Pit Fight
4) Exile artifact or enchantment

It kills Bowmaster (with any creature, even tapped BoP), exiles The One Ring or Kaldra, or tutors for a silver bullet.

The flexibility seems very good in a deck like this.

Otherwise the above shell witb 4 Vial, 4 OUAT, 4 GSZ seems efficient (surprised Fauna still works without Mother of Runes).

I think it's a card to consider, but 3 mana for a tutor is far too much, I think, and GGG is very hard to make in most versions I've played. The exiling disenchant seems to make it pretty good, having an answer to the one ring is pretty good (edit: I mean, it helps deal with a common situation in the format for a deck that wishes to play a long game, which is difficult to do against an active ring), and it's also potential creature removal, it does quite a lot.

I'm actually working on a flash build now, went through all flash cards on gatherer and well this card could work there, if it wasn't for the GGG casting cost. I mean, when you have many flash creatures in your hand, sometimes you may not want to cast any of them at end of opponent's turn, waiting for a better opportunity, and then this card would be quite useful.

pettdan

01-20-2024, 04:57 PM

Here's a list of potential flash cards to include in a flash-focused deck:

Alms Collector
Aven Mindcensor
Bonecrusher Giant
Containment Priest
Dualcaster Mage
Elder Deep-Fiend
Errant and Giada
Faerie Mastermind
Harbinger of the Tides
Horned Loch-Whale
Hullbreaker Horror
Hushwing Gryff
Izzet Staticaster
Kyodai, Soul of Kamigawa
Merfolk Trickster
Niambi, Esteemed Speaker
Nimble Obstructionist
Notion Thief
Obscura Interceptor
Pearl Lake Ancient
Restoration Angel
Scryb Ranger
Slitherwisp
Spellqueller
Spellstutter Sprite
Subtlety
Tishana's Tidebinder
Torrential Gearhulk
Vendilion Clique
Werefox Bodyguard
Wildborn Preserver
Vodalian Hexcatcher
Zareth San, the Trickster

Non-creatures with flash:
Leyline Binding
Necromancy
Omen of the Sea
Swift Reconfiguration
The Wandering Emperor
Ward of Lights

Probably will be using these:
Brazen Borrower
Endurance
Ertai Resurrected
Hullbreacher
Ice-Fang Coatl
Opposition Agent
Orcish Bowmasters
Samwise the Stouthearted
Snapcaster Mage
Solitude
Venser, Shaper Savant
Possibly also including Loch-Whale and Niambi

These cards or card types or abilities have good synergy with flash:
Teferi? Perhaps the playstyle fits rather well with flash cards, enabling you to put up blockers or bounce opponents creatures, untap, play Teferi. Not sure.
Ninjutsu: Fallen Shinobi, etc
Adventure cards with an instant adventure
Any instants:
- flame of anor
- kolaghan's command
- siphon insight
- sauron's ransom
- saw in half
- sheoldred's edict
- deadly dispute, village rites
- test of talents
- cling to dust
- drown in the loch
- veil of summer
- ephemerate
- mindbreak trap
- extirpate
- entomb
- shallow grave
- goryo's vengeance
- cunning wish
- fact or fiction
- spell pierce
- flusterstorm
- counterspell

Edit: made a list and played a test game, here: https://youtu.be/f4_Z0flndbY?si=f05lQ2MltnPzGTeK . I think I'll try to record about 2 games per week, or optimally 1 per day.
Edit: I notice the sound is oversaturated, I'll adjust that moving forward. Just started using a microphone I bought for streaming a while back and it seemed to work great when I tested, but apparently not.

pettdan

01-29-2024, 12:12 PM

So, here are links to a few test versions I've run recently, more recent ones at the top. Deck lists are recorded. Recording quality is hopefully improving. There's so much to try, it's nice to be playing and being able to record and share games makes it more fun. Note that these are all test games, opponents not always making good choices and I'm also improving. There's a lot of lag on the laptop when recording, unfortunately, so I need to practice patience when clicking fails, which it does about 70% of the time.

9. Abzan Abdel vs 8cast: https://youtu.be/l9tR3bt9GYQ?si=_zSlWJpFZCYwTc3w
8. Abzan Scam vs Lands: https://youtu.be/jlzLEDQsGfA?si=fS40INQlyI1qtfw0

With Bowmasters so popular, it's interesting to see if a version without cantrips can do well. Unfortunately, Bowmasters still kills most of the hatebears in the deck, but I figured they can still be worth running since few other decks do. Or, probably DnT do, but I haven't seen much of them. There was a very succesful Abzan version run by Cermak around 2018-2019, so I'm curious to try that approach, and now I have 4 Wastelands so this is part of what I'm curious about. Grief has added Scam potential to this archetype as well, so that's one avenue worth exploring in Abzan Scam. A challenge here is how to put some card advantage into the list, without triggering opposing Bowmasters.

It's a bit of a shame I got to play against Lands, since that's a good matchup, I believe, for this type of version. It would be more interesting to try some of the matchups that aren't necessarily improved by this change. Otoh, maybe I'm wrong.

-

7. WUBG Scryb Ranger vs ANT: https://youtu.be/E3jSKu6Mn1k?si=aZR8QVA1IWQ5hvju
6. WUBG Scryb Ranger vs RUg Delver: https://youtu.be/pRswVo6mVxw

I decided to add some green elements to see if the ramp is worth it. There's not much ramp, just a few manadorks to GSZ for or hardcast.

-

5. WUBG Flash vs UB Ninjas: https://youtu.be/dPw9RqnUzng
4. WUBG Flash vs UB Scam: https://youtu.be/f4_Z0flndbY

I feel like the flashspells are so valuable, being able to wait and see what opponent does before interacting is great and it lets you hold up counterspells which can be really good. So I tried to maximize flash spells and instants.

-

3. WURG Beans vs Cloudpost: https://youtu.be/3bu_mc_NlK8

Up the Beanstalk is a great card advantage engine with Yorion synergy, and we have at least Fury, Solitude, FoW and Leyline Binding to make good use of it. Unfortunately, Cloudpost is usually one of the toughest matchups, you can't win quickly against them and their creatures can easily run you over. Leyline was really good here though.

-

2. WUBG vs RUg Delver: https://youtu.be/dafpftan9do
1. WUBG vs RW Painter: https://youtu.be/sqSqrmZKZk4
Well, just a "regular" starting list. These games were recorded without equipment at my mom's place, so a bit worse quality.

pettdan

02-26-2024, 08:53 AM

I'm not sure if I've thought about this before (not since the release, I believe) but with the release on MTGO I realized that Toxicrene, we can now play a decent alternative to Magus of the Moon without splashing red. It's a bit expensive to GSZ for though, and if you want to recruiter for it you need red for Imperial Recruiter anyway. 1 more mana is quite important when the card stops Wastelands, but it survives bolt, Punishing Fire and blocks Delver and DRC.

pettdan

03-09-2024, 03:46 PM

While thinking about the meta game during the last 10 days or so, I've noticed what seems to me like a glaring weakness of the current metagame. I think it should be very easy to play a version of any fair deck (Nic Fit, MOST/Vial, Maverick) that should have at least a decent win percentage against the most popular aggro, combo and control decks. I suppose the metagame will correct by introducing a deck with some of these elements soon, or maybe I'm missing something obvious. It will be interesting to see, you can't ever predict changes.

So I've been pretty excited to update my deck with a version based on this, waiting to see someone else beat me to it. I did see a deck built pretty much like I was thinking do well in Modern but still none in Legacy. But, nights go long and I have to go to bed and I never managed to decide on a decklist and get a test game in until last night (finishing around 1 pm).

The second section discusses briefly my metagame observation, it's very straightforward and nothing complicated. The first section discusses how I adjusted my list to exploit this weakness -exploit sounds so aggressive, it's just about picking a couple of cards that are well positioned. I didn't discuss all the aspects, I think especially the Goblins matchup probably needs a couple of more cards for a positive matchup (like Plague Engineer and Blue Elemental Blast).

I'd love to play this deck through a league but I don't think I'm able to talk and record while playing efficiently enough so I'd rather record and share.

Here's a new video with a test game from last night using a WUBG version.
https://youtu.be/EQ26-IaZPOs

pettdan

03-30-2024, 07:01 AM

I recorded a new test video the other day. This version is WBGu, just a light blue splash for Leovold and Lagrella. Actually the list isn't as good for flickering as lists with more blue in them, especially considering Coatl or Strix, but I figured I'd try Lagrella anyway, it can usually go some good work and just getting an exile effect for opponent's creatures with GSZ can usually be very important.

This list uses Thoughtseize, Tidehollow Sculler and Stoneforge Mystic as some central cards, trying to disrupt the opponent with discard to create a window where equipment can be deployed to either present a fast clock or take control of the board. That perhaps makes it a bit closer to The Rock and Deadguy Ale, although no Wastelands this time.

The matchup was very interactive, playing a testgame vs Wu Taxes/Vial: https://youtu.be/_5YiLTjc70s?si=89WspXIX4X176YDG

pettdan

09-22-2024, 05:33 AM

Here Mark Strassman, or Strassdaddy, plays a nice Fiend Artisan combo list: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1okWcpyPOU

The list is made by the Maverick afficionado who goes by the username Karador. Fiend Artisan is pretty much an upgraded Fauna Shaman, one could say, so I think it fits here. It's also relevant because the combo elements are ones that are relevant to consider for the deck. The deck uses Devoted Druid + Swift Reconfiguration to get infinite mana and then some different ways to use that mana (Duskwatch Recruiter for example).

I've been looking at Swift Reconfiguration for the past 6 months or so because I finally picked them up at a good price on MTGO. I was thinking of playing it with Sythis, Harvest's Hand but the main problem I run into is that Devoted Druid looks so bad being a 2 mana ramp creature and very vulnerable to removal. We'll see, this video was inspiring to see.

The coolest card in the deck is perhaps Hazel's Brewmaster. Maybe we can view this as an updated Necrotic Ooze? Well I'm not sure if it's necessarily an upgrade in all aspects, but it does bring a graveyard exiling effect which can be very relevant, and it's lightning bolt safe. Exiling Devoted Druid with it gives you infinite mana (edit: well that is quite an upgrade over Ooze, isn't it?). It's quite similar to Agatha's Soul Cauldron, which is another card I'm eager to try, since a long time, but it plays so well with Ancient Tombs, I haven't figured out how to play it in a MOST list yet.

Last couple of days I'm leaning towards a list with Cauldron, Goblin Engineer, Painter, Pyroblast. Why? Because maindeck pyroblasts are great against Frog and Tamiyo which are the format's premier threats, and they're played in a mix of aggro, combo and even control decks so if you have maindeck pyroblasts that gives you an edge. And as you know pyroblast is also relevant against a large number of combo and control decks, it's just a great strategic advantage to have it in your maindeck. The downside of course is that you need to play Painter's Servant to enable playing maindeck blasts, but Painter is actually a very well positioned card right now against Eldrazi which is another of the most popular decks, it seems. By shutting off many of their lands. I even heard the Everyday Eternal podcast discuss someone playing Painter in the sideboard just for the effect against Eldrazi. So your Blast+Painter synergy hedges you against both Eldrazi and all Frog AND Nadu decks. In addition, Jeskai Control seemed to gain some popularity and Pyroblast is a great answer to Teferi and Narset.

And then, since MOST tends to win slowly, having a combo win is always an interesting alternative. Goblin Engineer helps finding a single Grindstone, and then you can combine Engineer with Cauldron, maybe also add the Alliances combo artifact to exile with Cauldron (I forget the name now, I'll be back to update - Phyrexian Devourer). Then maybe Strix to Weld/Engineer for card advantage and blocking, Vial's for utility and they can be sacrificed to Engineer when they did their job, StP, Imperial Recruiter to find Painter or Engineer or Strix, Phelie for flickering anything for value, maybe Staff of the Storyteller for more value. We'll see, Nadu is more straightforward and it doesn't mix with the Painter package so well.
.

My recent testing of MOST/3-/4c vial are different experiments with Nadu. Nadu can be run as a combo element but I've been running it mostly to get value with Karakas and when opponent removes your creatures, when you flicker it with Phelia, and also being a good defensive and offensive creature, blocking Delvers and DRCs, and pitching to FoW and Endurance. It does very much for the deck. At first I had a Shuko or Lightning Greaves in the list, but they weren't so impactful in a list that isn't super dedicated to combo. However, I'm thinking now that maybe I need some more combo focus now that Eldrazi are so aggressive and it's very valuable to be able to close out a game quickly there, even going from a losing board position to winning. So I first added a Nomads En-kor that can be recruitered for, but I'm thinking of trying Sylvan Safekeeper with more GSZ-focus in the list because it protects the combo and is more efficient to tutor for. Also, I've been trying running less Vials, which is perhaps a mistake, but partly because I want more interaction (Frog decks require quick interaction, I think, and probably Eldrazi too), lowering cmcs (which makes Vial less valuable). We'll see.

FTW

09-22-2024, 10:33 PM

I like the build because the combo pieces fill diverse roles.

Swift Reconfiguration is a combo piece but also your Swords to Plowshares: 1 cmc removal stopping Psychic Frog, Tamiyo, Eldrazi, Atraxa, Archon, etc.

Devoted Druid has a lot of ways to make it not bad outside the combo:
-NO fodder (T3 Atraxa)
-Grist fodder (T3 Grist through Daze, sac to destroy something)
-Brewmaster combo (T3 Brewmaster -> infinite mana)
-Fiend Artisan fodder (make GG, sac it to get Brewmaster -> infinite mana)

I wonder if the deck wants 1 Archon of Valor's Reach. There were game states where the infinite combo takes 2 more pieces to set up (can only tutor for 1), Atraxa doesn't win, and you'd rather play something that stops opponent from winning next turn than draw cards. I think Atraxa is better in decks with FoW (where it can draw Force/cantrips to protect itself + an extra copy pitches to Force). Here drawing a couple random green cards seems less decisive. You might get lucky and draw Druid + Reconfiguration + Ballista, but then you still need to pass the turn, then cast and resolve everything without protection, so it's a while before those cards convert to value. Other times you might get Mana Dork + land + OUAT. It's a lot worse than Reanimator drawing Force + Psychic Frog + Ponder + Animate Dead and being basically unstoppable.

For Nadu MOST, look at the Nadu Elves builds:
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=59643&d=647154&f=LE
https://www.mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=1840&meta=34&f=LE

Green-based creature-heavy deck full of 1 cmc manadorks and creature tutors.

pettdan

09-25-2024, 01:39 PM

Devoted Druid has a lot of ways to make it not bad outside the combo:
-NO fodder (T3 Atraxa)
-Grist fodder (T3 Grist through Daze, sac to destroy something)
-Brewmaster combo (T3 Brewmaster -> infinite mana)
-Fiend Artisan fodder (make GG, sac it to get Brewmaster -> infinite mana)

I like your point here about making double mana, it helps not only generating mana with Fiend Artisan but also with getting 2GG for Natural order and playing around Daze. I mean the potential for double mana does have extra synergy with the list. I don't usually play Natural Order though, so that's how I evaluate the combo pieces, but it's always a relevant edge to add. I guess it's rather well positioned thanks to Eldrazi being popular, getting Atraxa into play matters a lot.

For Nadu MOST, look at the Nadu Elves builds:
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=59643&d=647154&f=LE
https://www.mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=1840&meta=34&f=LE

Green-based creature-heavy deck full of 1 cmc manadorks and creature tutors.

Yeah I heard about this deck but haven't looked at lists yet, thanks!

Whoshim

10-28-2024, 07:17 PM

Here is a video of StrassDaddy playing MOST with pettdan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRYAf2Ws7Hk

pettdan

10-29-2024, 05:48 PM

Here is a video of StrassDaddy playing MOST with pettdan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRYAf2Ws7Hk

Thank you for posting! I hope it gave you an interest in trying the deck (if you haven't already that is).

pettdan

10-29-2024, 05:57 PM

I'll archive this part of the primer in this message and write an updated section for the primer.

------------------------------------------------

Two potential cores of the deck[indent]
To help me in my deck building with this deck I tend to build a core of the deck that contains the most useful cards that are needed to keep the deck together and provide the answers to some of the most common strategies. Let me know if you like a different core of the deck and I'll add it.

Upd March 2020: Since a while back I've been running Flickerwisph and Recruiter, inspired by DnT, and with recent MTGO success of Esper Vial using Soulherder I decided to try it too, I'll update the shell with Soulherder below. Also the release of OuaT means this card is now competing with GSZ (and Brainstorm) for space in the deck. I think if you're playing a value control version, then Recruiter is better, but if you're playing a combo control version, then Fauna Shaman is relatively better, but I think there is a lot of overlap between the optimal versions of both approaches. Also Collector Ouphe has appeared as a new hatebear for the sideboard, Oko presents a good threat and answer vs fair decks that MOST can ramp into, Uro and Kroxa appear as new Vial+Karakas value engines and late-game grind power. Kunoros has appeared as another relevant hatebear although it's hard to say how it fits, being a bit slow at three mana and not green and competing with Scavenging Ooze and Containment Priest.

With Soulherder:
3 Once Upon a Time
1 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Fauna Shaman

Non-creatures:
4 Aether Vial
1 Sylvan Library

Green creatures:
2 Birds of Paradise
2 Noble Hierarch
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Knight of Autumn

Non-green creatures:
3 Mother of Runes
1 Soulherder
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
16 fetches and forests

Comment: with Soulherder etb effects get better, like Knight of Autumn and Orzov Pontiff. The lower amount of GSZs mean Dryad Arbor, Meren and Leovold are much harder to find consistently. This also means it's less necessary to run black cards and splashing red is more of an option than in the Meren version. An advantage of this version is a lot of built in card advantage and good board presence. The OuaT's could be replaced with Brainstorms, making it easier to build a FoW-version.

With Meren:
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Once Upon a Time
4 Aether Vial
2 Birds of Paradise
2 Noble Hierarch
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Recruiter of the Guard
3 Mother of Runes
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sylvan Library
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Plague Engineer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
16 fetches and forests

Comment: This version seems more relevant for a combo version since Fauna Shaman offers unparallelled tutor ability and puts creatures in the graveyard which is sometimes needed for combos.

Sideboard:
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1-3 Leyline of the Void

Close contenders:
Peacekeeper

Motivation for this core:
These are 43 cards so you have 17 potential one-offs to add to the deck. From this you can go for a FoW version, a combo version, a mana denial version à la DnT, an elves package, wizards, artifact theme or whatever you like.
The current trend is to play Aether Vial, I think it is too good not to play, but it can be changed for more mana dorks.
You probably want more answers to Umezawa's Jitte, depending on how popular it is, but answers will help vs Chalice too and that never hurts. That can be in the form of additional Qasalis, Reclamation Sage, Abrupt Decay, Kolaghan's Command, Force of Will and/or Peacekeeper.
I usually play 2 Scryb Ranger, 0 Quirion Ranger, but I think this depends on how many lands you choose to play. Furthmore, usually there will be 2 Leovolds.
You also typically want some card draw, either Sylvan Library or Brainstorm. If you want to play FoW's somwewhere in the 75 then Brainstorm is well suited.
I removed Merieke ri Berit from this list because I've been fine without her, however she's a real game-winning card that's nice to have access to. If attrition based decks are tier 1, then she may be ill positioned.

pettdan

10-29-2024, 06:57 PM

I'm archiving this part of the primer which was written to discuss the core of the deck, common card choices and recent evolution of the deck.

-----------------------------------------

Common and a few not so common core cards of the deck (by decreased order of frequency in decklists, subjectively)

Post 2020 approach:
I will describe here my personal development in deck building strategy for MOST or 4c/3c Vial. Some still play something very close to the earlier versions.
In early 2018 I started using (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23898-Trade-Pod-(Tradewind-Rider-Birthing-Pod)&p=1036021&viewfull=1#post1036021) the Recruiter of the Guard and Flickerwisp combination of cards from Death and Taxes to get a card advantage aspect while also having a lot of utility and the tutor function. I basically cut 1-2 copies of Fauna Shaman and added Recruiters. It's a less powerful tutor effect, but it's harder for the opponent to interact with and leaves a body and if you flicker that body you get another tutor effect for free (which is a great advantage).

When Esper Vial first appeared in the reports of MTGO results using Soulherder (probably with this list: Jeff Lin's Esper Solution (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=24376&d=370286&f=LE) later Esper Vial), it seemed clear that the combination of creatures with etb abilities that could translate into card advantage especially with Soulherder could be a powerful approach. This made me reevaluate creatures that don't provide card advantage, especially the manadorks. Well, another reason to reevaluate using manadorks was that I noticed that Jeff was using more lands and no mana creatures to ramp with, Esper doesn't have them, offering a slower start but a more stable mana development. I figured I'd try the same, being less explosive but more reliable. And it seemed good. I think Delighted Halfling might be worth building with, however, and Dryad Arbor is good if running a GSZ heavy list. As of late 2024, the meta has become very aggressive and so GSZ may have an advantage over Recruiter in that it can accellerate your manadevelopment in the first two turns.

With the printing of Orcish Bowmasters, the deck takes another turn as it forces you to reevaluate all your creatures and how you play.

I will discuss here some cards that are good in a WUBG version of the deck. However, all cards with draw effects need to be reeavaluated in a format where Orcish Bowmasters is a popular card, which it probably will be as long as Brainstorm is a good card.

Examples of good cards for a WUBG version:
Yorion, Sky Nomad
Phelia, Exuberant Shepherd
Nadu, Winged Wisdom
Psychic Frog
Tamiyo, Inquisitive Student
Endurance
Force of Will
Brainstorm
Abundant Growth
Once Upon a Time
Swords to Plowshares
Abrupt Decay
Prismatic Ending
Orcish Bowmasters
Recruiter of the Guard
Green Sun's Zenith
Spellseeker
Solitude
Lagrella, the Magpie
Leovold, Emissary of Trest
Baleful Strix
Ice-Fang Coatl
Gilded Drake
Gaddock Teeg
Meddling Mage
Lavinia, Azorious Renegade
Plague Engineer
Skyclave Apparition
Knight of Autumn
Samwise the Stouthearted
Haywire Mite
Witch Enchanger
Stoneforge Mystic
Knight of the Reliquary

Abundant Growth makes a good Arcum's Astrolabe-imitation, it helps smooth out the mana requirements, let you operate more easily on fetching basic lands and gives you a chance to play through a Blood Moon. It also makes Yorion a better follow-up, and it helps letting Phelia attack while growing and drawing cards. When building a deck in 2024, you need to consider how an opposing Orcish Bowmasters will change theh value of Baleful Strix, Ice-Fang Coatl and Abundant Growth; I prefer Coatl because having flash lets you sometime play around your opponent's Bowmasters.

Examples of good cards for a WURG version, red additions:
Imperial Recruiter
Fury
Broadside Bombardiers
Mawloc
Magus of the Moon
Minsc & Boo
Pyroblast
Flame of Anor
Omnath, Locus of Creation
Punishing Fire
Dack Fayden
Shaman of the Great Hunt

Pre 2020 approach (for a 60 card maindeck, Yorion not yet printed):
• Lands: 14-18 cards

1 Forest
0-1 Plains
1-3 Savannah
1-2 Tropical Island
1-2 Bayou
0-1 Tundra
0-1 Underground Sea
0-1 Taiga
6-8 Fetches for Forest type cards
Not counting Dryad Arbor among the lands.

FTW

10-29-2024, 08:52 PM

pettdan

10-30-2024, 08:19 AM

Have you tried playing a Nadu MOST?

In GBuw you get access to:
Creature Tutors
Psychic Frog
Nethergoyf
Orcish Bowmasters
Wight of the Reliquary
Nadu
1 Nomads en-Kor
1 Bristly Bill, Spine Sower
1 Springheart Nantuko
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Scryb Ranger (blocks Psychic Frog!)

You could play a lot of the best current creatures in Legacy alongside Nadu support.

Yeah, that's what I'm playing now, thanks for the suggestion! You can see a little discussion on the list I'm testing, or one of several lists Im testing, in the stream linked yesterday.

FTW

10-30-2024, 01:20 PM

pettdan

10-30-2024, 01:51 PM

Thanks! I just watched a bit of the video.

That build looks GUWb, with a lot of interesting tech. Nice to see Merieke back with Scryb Ranger! Phelia has so many synergies too. Tamiyo may be less good: it's mana hungry and you have fewer spells than tempo decks.

Have you tried a black-heavier GBuw Nadu build to also incorporate the new black powerhouse creatures: Psychic Frog, Bowmasters, black Goyfs, etc? The average creature quality might rise, leading to less variance in the early game before you can assemble the late-game engines. It would likely be more graveyard-centric: maybe Fiend Artisan, Wight of the Reliquary, Meren.

I played both Tamiyo and Frog in a build recently and I liked Tamiyo better, but I'll keep changing and testing them.

It was nice to play Merieke again and she can have quite the impact on a game, but in order to fit sideboard Taiga and Pyroblasts I think I cut her for a fourth Abundant Growth. I made several cuts so it's not entirely clear which card was cut for what. Anyway, my priority now is to improve the matchup vs Eldrazi and Nadu decks, if possible. So that's why I'm adding sideboard Pyroblasts (hence adding 4th Abundant Growth). As for Eldrazi, I'm thinking creatively about that but may need to go for Harbinger. Or maybe add Nadu combo elements.

I think there's too much graveyard hate in maindecks now to play Meren (edit: not Merieke which I accidentally wrote), Witness is a bit more flexible and has Phelia synergy so I'm on that for now, also it brings back Wasteland and fits better in a tempo-oriented metagame. But that change is always a consideration.

Scryb Ranger was pretty good, it has great synergy with Nadu and then it just stonewalls a bunch of blue creatures (Atraxa, Frog etc). And with surveil lands it's suddenly library manipulation too. And protecting lands vs Wasteland of course, and getting an extra mana if you don't have a land drop, and vigilance to your Nadu for blocking duty. As long as opponent's aren't playing many Bowmasters it's great.

I haven't tried Wight yet. I can't see good usecases for it, at some point I'll try it. I think it requires more focus on utility lands and also having more creatures to sacrifice, so that's a bit much deck building restrictions. But I was thinking of just maximizing tutors in a list and see what works out.

Thanks! I just watched a bit of the video.
Did you avoid that direction on purpose to keep a high blue count for Force? With the top decks being Reanimator & fair decks (Eldrazi, UB, Red Stompy, Cradle Control) & creature-based combo (Nadu, Painter), maybe Force isn't needed. Endurance & Faerie Macabre can fight Reanimator arguably as well as Force. Getting to run your own Frogs has a lot of benefits.

Yeah I think you make another good explanation as to why FoW isn't as clutch as it might sometimes be, Nadu decks play Cavern and/or Halfling, Painter plays blasts, vs Reanimator Leyline is better in the sideboard, I think especially Vexing Bauble existing is going to influence how much play Force sees. But that easily develops into a rock-paper-scissorcs-metagame development, perhaps.

I think the white cards are best and the black cards are more a matter of preference. I started the Nadu decks playing more black and less white, with Fiend Artisan for example, but quickly during testing it evolved into more white than black, and now I think the next test might be cutting maindeck black for more maindeck red. But I'm evaluating other options too. So many alternatives!