Why isn't Living Wish more common?

[slave]

Ok, so this has bugged me for a while.
Why Living Wish isn't a more common card in legacy. Can someone explain why this is the case?

For example;
Every single time I see someone playing Sylvan Scrying, I can't understand why Living Wish isn't being played instead.
ANY creature, ANY land is far more powerful than a shuffle effect.

[wonderPreaux]

I think most of the issue is that lands/creatures are the things you're generally happy to see in your hand, and thus wouldn't want to devote SB space into pocketing them at a 2-mana premium. In TES or Omnitell, for instance, the wish-targets are highly differentiated in utility and cards you want to see only in certain situations, so the "premium" of the mana cost is balanced by being able to hedge hand quality.

For lands/creatures, they tend to directly and uniformly contribute to Depths. So, since I'd never turn up my nose at seeing the combo pieces, the redundancy of the Scrying is probably contributing more in terms of quality and speed of combo assembly then Living Wish could in terms of being Expensive Hexmage 4-7 w/ some access to Karakas or Bojuka or w/e

[Zombie]

I think most of the issue is that lands/creatures are the things you're generally happy to see in your hand, and thus wouldn't want to devote SB space into pocketing them at a 2-mana premium. In TES or Omnitell, for instance, the wish-targets are highly differentiated in utility and cards you want to see only in certain situations, so the "premium" of the mana cost is balanced by being able to hedge hand quality.

For lands/creatures, they tend to directly and uniformly contribute to Depths. So, since I'd never turn up my nose at seeing the combo pieces, the redundancy of the Scrying is probably contributing more in terms of quality and speed of combo assembly then Living Wish could in terms of being Expensive Hexmage 4-7 w/ some access to Karakas or Bojuka or w/e

That, and in TES there's the matter of enabling LED.

[Megadeus]

There was a fucking sick Bant Lands variant with Living wish for a short time. Look it up

[slave]

I think most of the issue is that lands/creatures are the things you're generally happy to see in your hand, and thus wouldn't want to devote SB space into pocketing them at a 2-mana premium.
I agree completely with the above statement.
But I still wonder why Expedition Map seems to be a more popular choice than Wish, in decks running green....

I think Wish has merit in certain decks.
Depths for example, doesn't need to run certain answers main, but they wouldn't run without them in their side.
Bojuka Bog via Crop Rotation is their instant-speed answer to Snapcaster, Reanimate etc. of course, but other lands like Ghost Quarter, Karakas, Maze of Ith & perhaps even Urborg#4, don't need to be in the main given Crop (and in some lists also Map) already covers the job for the combo.

[Lemnear]

I agree completely with the above statement.
But I still wonder why Expedition Map seems to be a more popular choice than Wish, in decks running green....

The same reason previously stated: You are usually fine drawing lands in your MD and don't need to waste SB space for stuff you wanna draw. Decks like 12-Post which are know for running Maps use them for additional redundancy of Locus lands and to access their Eye of Ugin. To use Living Wish for redundancy, would mean having one/two Locus lands in the SB, which is nonsense given you wanna draw them, thus Exploration Map is better.

[MechTactical]

Living wish is a perfectly reasonable choice for ug twelve post after sdt ban. I am testing a wish build as we speak. The problem with wish is that its rather slow and opens you to discard as well. If it was an instant You could eot wish...

[kombatkiwi]

There's a guy in the nicfit thread 5-0ing leagues playing a deck with only 3 cloudpost main so maybe it could work in that? In general I agree with what Lemnear is saying

[Ingo]

If you're very reliant on specific lands, you want Crop Rotation (just 1 mana, instant and immediate into play) which needs its targets in the main.
So when you'd want a singleton land, there's a tension between Living Wish and crop rotation as you'd need a singleton both in the main and the side to enable both tutors.
There's no such tension between crop rotation and sylvan scrying, ...
In case of multiples (like 4 dark depths, ...) it's also better to have them main as chances of naturally drawing them are higher.

[PirateKing]

If your wishboard is only lands, then as others have said you can be better served with main deck options.
I think the scales tip once you include the creatures or lands ability of Living Wish.
There have not been many, but the decks that ran it had silver bullet lands and silver bullet creatures that maximized the options. None of them were compellingly good decks, but that's been my experience.

[Mr. Safety]

1) Green Sun's Zenith is probably a better toolbox enabler, simply because it scales up, only costs one extra mana, and shuffles back in for another try.
2) Adding 2 mana to a land's cost, while also sacrificing sideboard space, is probably too expensive
3) Having only 3 copies of a land maindeck means you won't draw it as often, and naturally drawing lands is better (as stated already)
4) There really aren't any creatures that are powerful enough to sideboard (ie nothing broken) that aren't already a focus in the maindeck of broken creature decks (ie Natural order into Craterhoof, Show and Tell into Griselbrand/Emrakul, Entomb/Exhume for Griselbrand/Iona, etc.)

All that said, it's a cool and fun card. I think it could be useful in a grindy toolbox kind of deck, getting stuff like Thrun, Scavenging Ooze, Bloodbraid Elf, or even hatebears like Canonist, Teeg, Containment Priest, etc. The problem is it's so damn slow, so it almost becomes a situation where it's better to just have the early game covered and then play some number of threats in the maindeck. Nic Fit and Maverick are the notable decks that use GSZ with this philosophy already. It's unfortunate, but it's just not efficient enough anymore for legacy standards.

[maharis]

There was a fucking sick Bant Lands variant with Living wish for a short time. Look it up

I always loved this deck, one day I will use my store credit to get explorations instead of just piling on more jank like I usually do

http://www.azmagicplayers.com/articles/bant-turbo-lands-primer/

[mistercakes]

i've posted an idea to the nicfit thread:
haven't had time to put together a sb, but wanted to hear some feedback on this list:



4 veteran explorer
4 green sun's zenith
4 cabal therapy
4 living wish
4 lion's eye diamond
4 infernal tutor
3 walking ballista
3 auriok salvagers
3 chromatic sphere
2 diabolic intent
1 deathrite shaman
1 liliana, the last hope
1 eternal witness
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Plains
3 Swamp
3 Forest
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Dryad Arbor


sb would contain obvious wish targets and then maybe some interaction stuff. could also incorporate a singleton sb slithermuse as well. (dunno if that would help at all.)

deck is capable of turn 2 kill with phyrexian tower if opening hand has turn 1 explorer, turn 2 phyrexian tower (hand needs a wish/tutor/salvager effect, led, and a win con (sphere/ballista).

[Erdvermampfa]

It's too slow. Most games in legacy are decided within the first 3 turns nowadays and a turn 2 Living wish isn't a particularly strong play in such an environment.

[MechTactical]

Here's a sample UG post build by Rock Lee from 2017 after SDT ban. I've tested this list and it works very well for a sensei-less post build. Admittedly wish has all the downsides mentioned above. On the other hand post never did much in the first 3 turns except playing sdt, maps, needles, holding up green to crop in response to wasteland or get bajuka against combo etc.


If you're very reliant on specific lands, you want Crop Rotation (just 1 mana, instant and immediate into play) which needs its targets in the main.
So when you'd want a singleton land, there's a tension between Living Wish and crop rotation as you'd need a singleton both in the main and the side to enable both tutors.
There's no such tension between crop rotation and sylvan scrying, ...
In case of multiples (like 4 dark depths, ...) it's also better to have them main as chances of naturally drawing them are higher.

i disagree with this thinking because most of the time you will just wasteland yourself against anything that runs counters... hence we run map or wish. As you can see in the list below wish was used along side crop and map most likely to compensate for the lack of mb post. This build hits cloudpost drops very consistently because you're running 3x post + 3x wishes that are basically 3 more cloudposts MB that cost 1G.

Posted by Rock Lee on the Turbo Eldrazi thread:


I have been tweaking this build for awhile per my teammate Jeff Carpenter's advice and suggestions. Success has been overwhelming online, but I haven't taken it to a 5+ round event yet:

// Lands
1 [LG] Karakas
2 [TSP] Vesuva
3 [MR] Cloudpost
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [V12] Glacial Chasm
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [EXP] Misty Rainforest
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
3 [TSP] Forest (4)

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [BFZ] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
3 [GPX] Primeval Titan
2 [JU] Krosan Wayfarer
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth

// Spells
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [CN2] Show and Tell
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
3 [JU] Living Wish
3 [HOP] Relic of Progenitus

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Vesuva
SB: 1 [MR] Cloudpost
SB: 1 [GPX] Primeval Titan
SB: 3 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [EMA] Nature's Claim
SB: 1 [MMA] Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 [M15] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 3 [M15] Reclamation Sage
SB: 1 [DK] Maze of Ith

Tuning could be adding in some fog-effect creatures/spells or warping wail, both of which fit well in the meta slots.

Living wish I've found to be necessary with combo expanding so explosively due to no more miracles. Maze is intended as an infect answer, but could also be dawnstrider (weak to stifle and explosive starts), moment's peace (weak to explosive starts, not Living Wishable), or Walking Ballista (none of the listed weaknesses)

P.s. Faerie Macabre is such a great wish target!

[Ingo]

i disagree with this thinking because most of the time you will just wasteland yourself against anything that runs counters... hence we run map or wish. As you can see in the list below wish was used along side crop and map most likely to compensate for the lack of mb post. This build hits cloudpost drops very consistently because you're running 3x post + 3x wishes that are basically 3 more cloudposts MB that cost 1G.

Posted by Rock Lee on the Turbo Eldrazi thread:

P.s. Faerie Macabre is such a great wish target!

Sure there's a price tag on crop rotation (counters trade you 2-for-1), the gains however (1 mana, instant, immediatly into play) are huge in comparison to tutors like wish and map (or into the North, Sylvan Scrying) .
Just look at decks that abuse lands (Lands, Turbo Depths, greensplashing versions of 12-post), you will always find more (or at least as much) crop rotations than other landtutors.

The list you've posted plays wishes in the first place because of Primetime and the creature-wishboard (it has a full set of crops btw). Without those creatures, another maindeck post and 2 Sylvan Scrying would be better than 3 wishes (as you'd have another natural post you could draw into, and you could use Sylvan Scrying to find maindecked silverbullet-lands as well).

EDIT: with silverbullet-lands, I mean singletons like chasm, Karakas, Bog, Ugin as well. Wish can't find them, unless you place them in the side, where crop can't find them. What's the point of tutors if they don't reliably find you what you need?

[MechTactical]

Sure there's a price tag on crop rotation (counters trade you 2-for-1), the gains however (1 mana, instant, immediatly into play) are huge in comparison to tutors like wish and map (or into the North, Sylvan Scrying) .
Just look at decks that abuse lands (Lands, Turbo Depths, greensplashing versions of 12-post), you will always find more (or at least as much) crop rotations than other landtutors.

The list you've posted plays wishes in the first place because of Primetime and the creature-wishboard (it has a full set of crops btw). Without those creatures, another maindeck post and 2 Sylvan Scrying would be better than 3 wishes (as you'd have another natural post you could draw into, and you could use Sylvan Scrying to find maindecked silverbullet-lands as well).

I didn't say that one should play wish over crop. Crop is usually always included if a deck needs a land tutor. I'm saying that you can play wish alongside crop and/or map. I disagree with your assessment regarding rock's build. Sylvan scrying will get you only lands into your hand for the same price and speed as you can get your creatures and lands with wish. Usually the space in post builds is very tight, wish enables us to have access to answers we usually would have post-board.
When you will get your cloudpost wastelanded+surgicaled on t1-t2 post board you will definitely appreciate a living wish and the reaming cloudpost in your board. :wink: And be sure smart players that are familiar with the match-up always go for that option if available...



EDIT: with silverbullet-lands, I mean singletons like chasm, Karakas, Bog, Ugin as well. Wish can't find them, unless you place them in the side, where crop can't find them. What's the point of tutors if they don't reliably find you what you need?

The build still has crop and maps to find the silver bullets you are referring to... i don't need wish to find my eye of ugin i need it to find my titan to snt or revoker to shut down lili, jace, etc. or macabre to exile cards from gy or reclamation sage to get rid of artifacts/enchantments. If needed it can find a vesuva to copy my toolbox lands like chasm, bojuka or glimmer if i need life. it can also find a cloudpost which is only a super plus and gives a lot of consistency to the cloudpost engine. I agree that wish is a worse land tutor, but it's applications go beyond that. I could write pages here :laugh: hopefully you get my meaning...

[Ingo]

I didn't say that one should play wish over crop.
Actually you did (or at least phrase it suggestively) :
i disagree with this thinking because most of the time you will just wasteland yourself against anything that runs counters... hence we run map or wish.




Crop is usually always included if a deck needs a land tutor. I'm saying that you can play wish alongside crop and/or map. I disagree with your assessment regarding rock's build. Sylvan scrying will get you only lands into your hand for the same price and speed as you can get your creatures and lands with wish. Usually the space in post builds is very tight, wish enables us to have access to answers we usually would have post-board.
When you will get your cloudpost wastelanded+surgicaled on t1-t2 post board you will definitely appreciate a living wish and the reaming cloudpost in your board. :wink: And be sure smart players that are familiar with the match-up always go for that option if available...

The build still has crop and maps to find the silver bullets you are referring to... i don't need wish to find my eye of ugin i need it to find my titan to snt or revoker to shut down lili, jace, etc. or macabre to exile cards from gy or reclamation sage to get rid of artifacts/enchantments. If needed it can find a vesuva to copy my toolbox lands like chasm, bojuka or glimmer if i need life. it can also find a cloudpost which is only a super plus and gives lot of consistency to the cloudpost engine. I agree that wish is a worse land tutor, but it's applications go beyond that. I could write pages here :laugh: hopefully you get my meaning...

We are basicly saying the same thing; the wishes are especially there because of the creatures in the wishboard.

There's a point in Surgical Extraction, but Lands, Turbo Depths or 12-post play against Surgical Extraction too, without relating to LWish.

[Blastoderm]

As other people mentioned its better to have four stages and depths to naturally draw them. Matt Nass recently placed 12th at GP seattle with a cool tin fins dark depths hybrid with 3 living wish. I think I've seen this on MTGO, unless it was also him.