[Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

[drude1]

If humility comes down before painter then painter doesn't name a color when it comes into play.


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[drude1]

Fyi, bug is fixed!

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[SDBobPlissken]

Two 4-1 leagues since the bug fix. www.twitch.tv/heyclutch









Fixed link.

[Kap'n Cook]

Excellent work Bob!!

Lol thanks homie



Two 4-1 leagues since the bug fix. www.twitch.tv.com/heyclutch

Your link is busted, https://www.twitch.tv/heyclutch


Fired up modo again to start cratermaker testing. Only played one match. I killed a Jitte game 1 against DnT. Already a boss.

I also finally got my report up Source Wars: Episode V - Wizards Strikes Back (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32706-Source-Wars-Episode-V-%96-Wizards-Strikes-Back)

[SDBobPlissken]

Your link is busted, https://www.twitch.tv/heyclutch


Also I finally fired up modo again to start cratermaker testing. Only played one match. I killed a Jitte game 1 against DnT. Already a boss.

I also finally got my report up Source Wars: Episode V - Wizards Strikes Back (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32706-Source-Wars-Episode-V-%96-Wizards-Strikes-Back)

Fixed link. Thanks. That was a great read. Congrats on the finish. It was nice to see Shortcake on camera again.

"I also knew that people still think Death and Taxes is a good deck and would lie to themselves and sleeve it up regardless..." :laugh::laugh:

[Kap'n Cook]

Anyone still on karn? I put them back in over the lavaman/2nd moon, and already I kind of missed the raw card advantage in the dnt/miracles/grixis games. I’m wondering also because while it hasn’t come up yet, cratermaker plus copter lets you kill angler, so protecting karn now against everything is a real possibility. the issue is space though, since you’d probably want two to be able to piggyback on the original cards exiles with silver counters. Any thoughts?

[drude1]

You can always shave, but I know how you feel about that (eg shave a recruiter, blast or a canonist) or cut the e.e. main. Don't know. I'm on a pretty different list (4 blood moon main) so it's hard to compare. Overall the issue I have is grixis control so I'm trying to improve my matchup against that deck as it is a very significant part of the field.
@Bobplisken: watched your stream. It's interesting some of the different lines we take but it's really informative actually. Thanks for doing that.
@kapn: also read your report. Good stuff. Lots of work went into that one.

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[Kap'n Cook]

You can always shave, but I know how you feel about that (eg shave a recruiter, blast or a canonist) or cut the e.e. main. Don't know. I'm on a pretty different list (4 blood moon main) so it's hard to compare. Overall the issue I have is grixis control so I'm trying to improve my matchup against that deck as it is a very significant part of the field.
@Bobplisken: watched your stream. It's interesting some of the different lines we take but it's really informative actually. Thanks for doing that.
@kapn: also read your report. Good stuff. Lots of work went into that one.

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What's the list right now?

[Hisa]

Nice write-up, Jack, your TRs are always fun to read.

I've done five or six leagues with something close to the 4 Cannonist list all to 4-1 or 3-2 finishes. Some of that is definitely rust and in-experience on a list without Blue, though. I lost to Modern Humans with Wasteland and Mom because I suck. (SHAME)

A few thoughts:

I was entirely unconvinced on the Cannonists when I started. Bear seem so much less game winning than Blood Moon. After playing 50 games I have completely come around. Blood Moon is marginal right now -- Leaving aside Miracles there are infinite basics right now. I lost to a Canadian deck because he had a basic Island. Cannonist, on the other hand, slows the tempo of the game way down. It stops Miracle shenanigans, snapcaster shenanigans, cantrip-into-threat shenanigans. Really, it stops shenanigans of all kinds.

The biggest thing I had trouble with was Tarmojoyce. For two leagues I played almost nothing but BUG midrange and had more */1s cast against me in that ten game stretch than I have in the previous six months. It makes me want to play another bridge. But maybe I'm just using ET wrong.

Anyway, I am 99% on shortcake for Champs. I have got to dig out my Ice Age Pyroclasms and make my Enlighten Tutors match (SHAME).

[Michael Keller]

This is no joke: I'm either running Painter or Minotaurs for EW.

[sroncor1]

@ Hollywood- when are you getting to Pittsburg? I am planning on getting in Thursday am. I am actually not even bringing Vintage cards as I solely plan to play Legacy and Old school. DO you have a list? We can talk shop come Thursday.

Also, any other Painters in general going to be in Pittsburg?

Seth

[CptHaddock]

@ Hollywood- when are you getting to Pittsburg? I am planning on getting in Thursday am. I am actually not even bringing Vintage cards as I solely plan to play Legacy and Old school. DO you have a list? We can talk shop come Thursday.

Also, any other Painters in general going to be in Pittsburg?

Seth

For EW? I'll be there, still undecided on what I want to go 0-3 drop with but i'm leaning heavily towards painter.

[drude1]

I'll be there and playing some sort of painter. Just not sure which version yet.

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[Michael Keller]

Still haven't decided what iteration of Painter I'll be playing, though.

[sroncor1]

@ Hollywood- Cool. I mean I will be there playing Old School but happy to talk shop and the like.

That goes for anyone, happy to chat with any Painters in attendance. Depending how Old School is I may enter the main Legacy event at this point. Deck feels pretty good right now, and the Sideboard is playing well these days.

Seth

[amjw]

Hey guys,

I tried Imperial Painter back when Top was still a thing and sold the Recruiters right before Top got banned. Still have the remaining cards of the deck though and was tempted to buy back into Recruiters, make this deck again and make it my alt deck (currently playing Lands and Pox atm to show off my Tabernacle lol). I really want to see how good Smuggler's Copter is.

Looking at Jack Kitchen's deck that he took to an SCG recently I noticed that there was only 1 Blood Moon. Any reason why there's no Magus of the Moon and it's been trimmed down so much? Does it become another good target for Enlightened Tutor or something?

Well done to Jack for his play btw, especially for beating Matthew Vook's 4c deck.

[drude1]

Hey guys,

I tried Imperial Painter back when Top was still a thing and sold the Recruiters right before Top got banned. Still have the remaining cards of the deck though and was tempted to buy back into Recruiters, make this deck again and make it my alt deck (currently playing Lands and Pox atm to show off my Tabernacle lol). I really want to see how good Smuggler's Copter is.

Looking at Jack Kitchen's deck that he took to an SCG recently I noticed that there was only 1 Blood Moon. Any reason why there's no Magus of the Moon and it's been trimmed down so much? Does it become another good target for Enlightened Tutor or something?

Well done to Jack for his play btw, especially for beating Matthew Vook's 4c deck.

Most painters these days are under the impression that Blood Moon just isn't that good of a card anymore. People are playing a lot more basics and so the card isn't as strong as it used to be. Canonist is acting as the new prison piece. Others (such as myself) still think the card is still a 4 of, mostly because grixis decks are still huge (not to mention the other decks punished by Blood Moon such as Lands, infect, Eldrazi and the resurgence of BUG) and if you are going to play blood moon you want it on turn 1-2 when the opponent hasn't had the opportunity to fetch their basics.

And on that note, @Kapn, you asked. So here is the the straight shortcake list that I am playing right now:
// Shortcake

// 60 Maindeck
// 12 Artifact
4 Grindstone
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Smuggler's Copter
4 Lotus Petal

// 16 Creature
3 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant
4 Imperial Recruiter
3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Goblin Cratermaker

// 4 Enchantment
4 Blood Moon

// 9 Instant
4 Pyroblast
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Red Elemental Blast

// 19 Land
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Great Furnace
3 Mountain
3 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Plains
2 Plateau
4 Arid Mesa


// 15 Sideboard

SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Goblin Cratermaker
SB: 1 Sphere of Law
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Abrade
SB: 3 Kozilek's Return
SB: 1 Karn, Scion of Urza

Here is the pile that I have honestly been playing the most and having the most success with:

// Devil's Cake

// 60 Maindeck
// 14 Artifact
4 Grindstone
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Smuggler's Copter
4 Lotus Petal
2 Mox Opal

// 13 Creature
3 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant
3 Imperial Recruiter
3 Ethersworn Canonist

// 4 Enchantment
4 Blood Moon

// 8 Instant
4 Pyroblast
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Red Elemental Blast

// 19 Land
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Great Furnace
2 Mountain
2 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Plains
1 Plateau
4 Arid Mesa
1 Badlands

// 2 Planeswalker
2 Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast


// 15 Sideboard

SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Goblin Cratermaker
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Dread of Night
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Sudden Shock
SB: 1 Karn, Scion of Urza
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge


I still just really like Daretti. He answers so many problems. He takes out creatures and artifacts. He makes tokens to crew copter or as fodder for welder. And his ultimate is very relevant. I also have a good number of sideboard cards in black that I like to swap in and out depending on what I am seeing the most of. The small amount of black isn't really hurting me given my mana base. I also really like the opals as they can act as fast mana (I have frequently cast a turn 1 blood moon on furnace, opal, petal) but it also sticks around and I feel less mana screwed with this list than the straight R/W list. I know most people will think this is a pile, particularly given all the 3 of's. It has just been working for me. As you can see, I am definitely on 4 Blood Moon in both lists. This is again because of the MU's I've listed above. It's the only strategy that I have found that is consistently strong against Grixis lists, even if they do get out 1 or 2 of their basics. And again, I don't begrudge anyone for playing the 1 x blood moon list either. You obviously have had some success with it. I really do like canonist and the first change I would make to either of my lists would be to get the 4th in the deck. However, I do feel like 4 x blood moon is more important, as you really want it on turn 1-2, whereas canonist can come down a little later (except against STORM) and still be effective.

[swampcaster]

I used to play the shortcake a long while back before the copter tech and good lord am i loving this new advancement. I've been pretty lost since the bannings but its so refreshing to come back to painter combo in legacy.

I do agree that moon isnt at its best which is sad because i played the 8 moon deck a lot in the past :(. It is especially bad in my meta so i am on the 1 mainboard moon list.
I'm kind of shocked that pia and kiran nalar aren't in the lists anymore as they are super value, is Karn really worth not being tutorable for?

4 cannonist is a bit jarring to me, i feel like revoker has a bit more utility in it. After reading the reports im warming up a bit more to it though i'll have to get the last one to try a full set.

I played this list tonight and i think i'll try
-1 LED (outdated) -1 REB (seemed a bit much running 6 main)
+1 canonist +1 smugglers copter

Main Deck
4x Ancient Tomb
3x City of Traitors
4x Arid Mesa
2x Bloodstained Mire
2x Plateau
3x Mountain
1x Great Furnace

1x Blood Moon
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Lion's Eye Diamond

4x Painter's Servant
1x Goblin Cratermaker
1x Grim Lavamancer
1x Simian Spirit Guide
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Walking Ballista
1x pia and kiran nalar
3x Smuggler's Copter
4x Imperial Recruiter
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Goblin Welder

4x Lotus Petal
4x Grindstone
3x Enlightened Tutor
4x Pyroblast
2x Red Elemental Blast

Sideboard
4 surgical extraction
1 vexing shusher
1 assemble the legion
1 sorcerous spyglass
2 pyroclasm
1 wear // tear
1 duerar hedge-mage
1 grafdiggers cage (better vs elves than tormods which matters in my meta)
1 pithing needle
1 containment priest
1 ensnaring bridge
1 blood moon (i'd love to up the count but my meta is full of basics and no delver atm)

[Michael Keller]

I think Welder is in too good of a spot now to warrant less than three in any iteration of Painter. Since Deathrite is gone, it makes it that much better - especially on the play against Chalice decks - and really helps blank opponents' counter-magic with added redundancy.

I don't think four Ethersworn Canonist is correct, though. I know a lot of decks play cantrips and try to find answers, but those same decks also pack loads of instants to handle key cards. It also makes K-Command scarier. I think two is fine, and if there's loads of fast combo around you, three should be more than enough.

[Kap'n Cook]

Played in two events this past weekend. For the first, I swapped in a cratermaker for the maindeck ee and another in the side and literally the first game I played out a fetch with a tutor in hand and was met by a chalice I couldn't tutor removal for. So that went downhill from there, and I played some other weird matchups and kept bad hands after I was out of contention going 2-4 overall. I used that time to more just think about the list since I already knew I didn't like it and wanted to have both cratermaker and ee in the main. Hollywood I think you're correct on the canonists. It has proven really good and I still like a bunch maindeck, but its success has also been skewed by a lack of random decks so far in testing. As that has normalized, I found myself boarding them out a lot, which definitely makes me comfortable going to 3. I made that switch, putting ee back in the main and played the challenge yesterday, going 5-2, losing to elves and bigger eldrazi.

I also want to say that everyone should keep testing a ton of random shit to see what sticks and what is working. Like Dan testing Daretti. It looks awesome and seems perfect for copter and welder, I just don't think I am ready to add a third color yet and to be honest I wouldn't have the slightest idea on how it would start changing the manabase, although I would start with what he's been playing if you like that route. It definitely would open up some cool sideboard targets like E-plague or Chains lol. Same goes for Blood Moon numbers. I can't fault anyone for wanting to run more than 1 main, and I have definitely wanted to start adding at least the 2nd somewhere in the 75 as a backup vs depths. The issue is more that greater testing in general needs to be done, as the deck in its current state is still only three months old which is nothing. I still have two karn in there, as I am not sure what decks will present themselves as really bad matchups, but they are the easy cuts if any dedicated hate is wanted.


Thinking I am going to test this in the coming weeks. Thoughts on this list appreciated, areas of concern, etc:


4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Plateau
3 Mountain
1 Great Furnace

4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter's Servant
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Goblin Welder
1 Goblin Cratermaker
1 Walking Ballista

1 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal

4 Grindstone
4 Smuggler's Copter
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Blood Moon

4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Enlightened Tutor


Side:
4 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Containment Priest
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Blood Moon
1 Goblin Cratermaker
3 Pyroclasm
2 Karn, Scion of Urza
1 Flex (Heretic/Hedge mage/4th canonist/etc)

[SDBobPlissken]

I’ve been really woofing it up lately with the deck. Went 1-2-drop and 0-1-1 drop at my last two LGS legacy tournaments . Tonight I had losses to storm and lands which is almost embarrassing. Drew against UWb Walker standstill. After the last two weeks I think that revoker might be what is missing in my 75 at least for the meta at my LGS. Think I’m gonna replace a canonist with it.

[jasper]

Played in two events this past weekend. For the first, I swapped in a cratermaker for the maindeck ee and another in the side and literally the first game I played out a fetch with a tutor in hand and was met by a chalice I couldn't tutor removal for. So that went downhill from there, and I played some other weird matchups and kept bad hands after I was out of contention going 2-4 overall. I used that time to more just think about the list since I already knew I didn't like it and wanted to have both cratermaker and ee in the main. Hollywood I think you're correct on the canonists. It has proven really good and I still like a bunch maindeck, but its success has also been skewed by a lack of random decks so far in testing. As that has normalized, I found myself boarding them out a lot, which definitely makes me comfortable going to 3. I made that switch, putting ee back in the main and played the challenge yesterday, going 5-2, losing to elves and bigger eldrazi.

I also want to say that everyone should keep testing a ton of random shit to see what sticks and what is working. Like Dan testing Daretti. It looks awesome and seems perfect for copter and welder, I just don't think I am ready to add a third color yet and to be honest I wouldn't have the slightest idea on how it would start changing the manabase, although I would start with what he's been playing if you like that route. It definitely would open up some cool sideboard targets like E-plague or Chains lol. Same goes for Blood Moon numbers. I can't fault anyone for wanting to run more than 1 main, and I have definitely wanted to start adding at least the 2nd somewhere in the 75 as a backup vs depths. The issue is more that greater testing in general needs to be done, as the deck in its current state is still only three months old which is nothing. I still have two karn in there, as I am not sure what decks will present themselves as really bad matchups, but they are the easy cuts if any dedicated hate is wanted.


Thinking I am going to test this in the coming weeks. Thoughts on this list appreciated, areas of concern, etc:


List looks good, I think moving to 3 Canonists to fit in a Cratermaker together with EE makes sense. I've been trying to find space for a Revoker maindeck, having tested it in the side and found myself wanting it often. It has a lot of utility against various things, and I think having it available as a tutor target in game 1 is worthwhile—it helps against Sneak and Show, planeswalkers, Depths decks (well, only Hexmage), equipment (I've found that a Jitte you can't immediately answer can be problematic), Inkmoth out of infect (edit: actually no, whoops), and even storm.

For example, one of the biggest issues against EldraziPost is Ugin, and Revoker gives you a proactive out. There are very few matchups where it does nothing, and the failcase is fine given that it still crews the copter.

I'm not sure how I feel about cutting down to 2 Canonists to fit it in, but it's definitely an option. Canonist is a card that's good against the cantrip decks and excellent against storm, but in the former case I don't often find myself in a position to tutor for it because it's good incrementally rather than providing value immediately. This makes me think that having it in higher numbers is to be preferred since you'd rather draw it naturally/have it in play early.

Another option, although possibly not a good one, would be to go with the Elves philosophy of playing 61 cards to facilitate extra tutor targets. I doubt this is optimal given we are at heart a combo deck looking to draw specific combo pieces, but I thought I'd raise it nevertheless.

A different cut/reshuffle I can see would be Walking Ballista, which is a great card but also shines out of the board. Depending on meta, I think Revoker might be better positioned at the moment. There's less DnT than there was, for instance, and Ballista isn't great against Grixis or combo decks.

I've also been experimenting with only playing 5 blasts in the maindeck, but I think having the extra blast is worth it against much of the field, as there's plenty of blue running around to make it good even without a painter in play.


Regarding Blood Moon, I feel like either you want to be maximising your chances of having it on turn 1/2 or only having it around as a tutor target—so I would probably play 4 or just play 1, rather than anything in between. In contrast to a creature, it's failcase is doing stone-cold nothing, particularly in the builds that are heavier on white to facilitate Canonist but don't play a basic plains.

[drude1]

List looks good, I think moving to 3 Canonists to fit in a Cratermaker together with EE makes sense. I've been trying to find space for a Revoker maindeck, having tested it in the side and found myself wanting it often. It has a lot of utility against various things, and I think having it available as a tutor target in game 1 is worthwhile—it helps against Sneak and Show, planeswalkers, Depths decks, equipment (I've found that a Jitte you can't immediately answer can be problematic), Inkmoth out of infect, and even storm.

For example, one of the biggest issues against EldraziPost is Ugin, and Revoker gives you a proactive out. There are very few matchups where it does nothing, and the failcase is fine given that it still crews the copter.

I'm not sure how I feel about cutting down to 2 Canonists to fit it in, but it's definitely an option. Canonist is a card that's good against the cantrip decks and excellent against storm, but in the former case I don't often find myself in a position to tutor for it because it's good incrementally rather than providing value immediately. This makes me think that having it in higher numbers is to be preferred since you'd rather draw it naturally/have it in play early.

Another option, although possibly not a good one, would be to go with the Elves philosophy of playing 61 cards to facilitate extra tutor targets. I doubt this is optimal given we are at heart a combo deck looking to draw specific combo pieces, but I thought I'd raise it nevertheless.

A different cut/reshuffle I can see would be Walking Ballista, which is a great card but also shines out of the board. Depending on meta, I think Revoker might be better positioned at the moment. There's less DnT than there was, for instance, and Ballista isn't great against Grixis or combo decks.

I've also been experimenting with only playing 5 blasts in the maindeck, but I think having the extra blast is worth it against much of the field, as there's plenty of blue running around to make it good even without a painter in play.


Regarding Blood Moon, I feel like either you want to be maximising your chances of having it on turn 1/2 or only having it around as a tutor target—so I would probably play 4 or just play 1, rather than anything in between. In contrast to a creature, it's failcase is doing stone-cold nothing, particularly in the builds that are heavier on white to facilitate Canonist but don't play a basic plains.Just an fyi, revoker doesn't hit inkmoth or depths combo (except hexmage I guess).
I do totally agree with the 1 or 4 moon philosophy. I do also like cratermaker but have also run into the nombo with painter a couple times now. It's not something you can't play around. It's just super awkward.

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[jasper]

Just an fyi, revoker doesn't hit inkmoth or depths combo (except hexmage I guess).
I do totally agree with the 1 or 4 moon philosophy. I do also like cratermaker but have also run into the nombo with painter a couple times now. It's not something you can't play around. It's just super awkward.

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You’re right, my bad. Will edit my post to reflect that—I’ve been playing with Spyglass too much.

Yup, it’s happened to me as well. But you can play around it, and you have ways of getting rid of Painter if you absolutely need to, Welder being the cleanest. Especially given that Cratermaker can still blow up creatures, I think it’s a downside worth getting used to and learning to play around.

[Fallen_Empire]

Kap'n - what matchup's are you boarding in Karn?

Drude1 - I see you posting about shortcake and the mono-blue builds, do you have a personal preference or thoughts on which is better and if so why?

[Michael Keller]

For what it's worth, I'll be rocking a whole new iteration of Painter at EW.

[kayla180]

As a new player to this deck I was wondering what your thoughts would be on this list? I like the idea of playing daretti so I wanted to try mardu.

3 Goblin Welder
3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Goblin Cratermaker
4 Painter's servant
4 Imperial Recruiter
2 Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Lotus Petal
4 Grindstone
4 Smuggler's Copter
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Blood Moon
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Badlands
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 City of Traitors
2 Great Furnace
2 Mountain
2 Plateau
2 Wooded Foothills

2 Containment Priest
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Duergar Hedge-Mage
1 Viashino Heratic
2 Karn, Scion of Urza
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ensnaring Bridge

[GradStudent]

For what it's worth, I'll be rocking a whole new iteration of Painter at EW.

hope its the fabled reanipainter

[Vaughnopoly]

What's everyone's thoughts on daretti, scrap savant? I'm going to a legacy tournament tomorrow and I'm thinking of maindecking 3. He has great synergy with the deck, and I have played Chandra, torch of defiance, but I don't think she is always what we want (conflicting with graveyard shenanigans) I will post my list later tonight

[Megadeus]

What's everyone's thoughts on daretti, scrap savant? I'm going to a legacy tournament tomorrow and I'm thinking of maindecking 3. He has great synergy with the deck, and I have played Chandra, torch of defiance, but I don't think she is always what we want (conflicting with graveyard shenanigans) I will post my list later tonight

Chandra is nice because she's a straight up alternate win condition. Daretti unfortunately isn't. He's incredibly powerful with the main gameplan though.

[SDBobPlissken]

As a new player to this deck I was wondering what your thoughts would be on this list? I like the idea of playing daretti so I wanted to try mardu.

3 Goblin Welder
3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Goblin Cratermaker
4 Painter's servant
4 Imperial Recruiter
2 Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Lotus Petal
4 Grindstone
4 Smuggler's Copter
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Blood Moon
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Badlands
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 City of Traitors
2 Great Furnace
2 Mountain
2 Plateau
2 Wooded Foothills

2 Containment Priest
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Duergar Hedge-Mage
1 Viashino Heratic
2 Karn, Scion of Urza
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ensnaring Bridge

I like it. Let us know how testing goes. Part of the appeal of splashing black to me is that we can play salughter games, Kommand, dread of night and chains in the board.

[Vaughnopoly]

Chandra is nice because she's a straight up alternate win condition. Daretti unfortunately isn't. He's incredibly powerful with the main gameplan though.

Its that I don't like how Chandra exiles the card with her +1. I love her and think she is great in other decks, but I hate the lack of synergy with welder

[Vaughnopoly]

List for tomorrow:

4 painters servant
4 pyroblast
2 red elemental blast
4 smugglers copter
3 daretti, shaped savant
4 grindstone
3 ethersworn canonist
4 lotus petal
4 imperial recruiter
3 goblin welder
3 enlightened tutor
1 simian spirit guide
1 blood moon
1 walking ballista
1 ensnaring bridge
3 mountain
1 plains
2 great furnace
4 arid mesa
3 city of traitors
1 plateau
4 ancient tomb

Sideboard:
3 pyroclasm
1 blood moon
1 ensnaring bridge
4 surgical extraction
1 tormods crypt
1 engineered explosives
1 sorcerous spyglass
1 grim lavamancer
1 duergar hedgemage
1 stuffy doll (I love my random fun ofs)

[Michael Keller]

hope its the fabled reanipainter

Artificer’s Intuition and Goblin Welder. Basically Grixis. Hit the lab hard on this one.

[sco0ter]

Artificer’s Intuition and Goblin Welder. Basically Grixis. Hit the lab hard on this one.

Omg, I cant wait for your decklist!

[drude1]

@Fallen_Empire: That's a tough question. I think it really depends on meta. Honestly, right now in a big tournament mono-blue is probably better. I say that though because I think it has a better matchup against grixis control and miracles, which are probably the two biggest boogy men in the room. Mono blue has been putting up some pretty good results lately. And there aren't a lot of decks that can deal with The Antiquities War. That card is bonkers. However, if you are playing the more currently popular version of the deck (without chalice), then the combo matchups are bad. It's probably also worse against Eldrazi, particularly Eldrazi Post, since they just have the ultimate go-long strategy against that deck. I've beat that deck once and that was with the llawan painter combo on board and removing all is dust with Unmoored Ego. You have to have exacties. I'll also say that you can really get some do nothing hands in the opening 7 with the mono blue list.

@Kayla180: I am also a big fan of Daretti. I actually like the list. It's the closest you can get to combining Daretti with Jack's list. I do agree with SDBob though that if you are going to splash a third color there are a lot of really sweet black sideboards cards that you should consider. Dread of Night is particularly sweet because you can tutor for it and set painter to white to hit elves or young pyro or true-name, etc. And again, I would always advocate for 4 x blood moon in the 75, but that's just me.

@Vaughnopoly: There is a guy at my LGS that plays red Daretti in his list and he really likes it. He is playing a mono-red version of the list though and Daretti is his draw engine. I think he has had good luck with it.

Also, for the majority of people here who aren't on 4 blood moon main, is it still worth it to play all the fast mana? (petals, SSG). I thought the point of that was to get out a turn one blood moon with a sol land. I understand you can power out a turn 1 copter a little easier if you need to. But other than that is it worth it?

Artificer's Intuition is spicy. If it would fetch 2 or less artifact it would be the absolute nut. It's a card you definitely have to build around a little though. Also looking forward to seeing a list.

[8bit9mm]

Played in the Legacy Challenge on MtGO yesterday. My first decent-sized tournament since being back on Shortcake (still working on picking up the cards in paper).
The list I played was:

4 Painter’s Servant
4 Imperial Recruiter
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Goblin Welder
1 Walking Ballista
1 Goblin Cratermaker
1 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Smuggler’s Copter
4 Grindstone
4 Lotus Petal
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Blood Moon

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Plateau
3 Mountain
1 Great Furnace

//Sideboard
1 Containment Priest
4 Surgical Extraction
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Duergar Hedge-Mage
1 Goblin Cratermaker
3 Pyroclasm
1 Blood Moon
1 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Karn, Scion of Urza


I ended up 41/87 (not as good as JustJasper, who pulled out that 16th spot!)

My matchups were:

DnT: 2-1
Eldrazi Post: 1-2
Miracles: 1-2 (Annurag)
Miracles: 2-1
Miracles: 2-0
Miracles: 0-2 (punt-city)
Sneak & Show: 1-2

I played against Miracles...a lot.
Playing against Post just feels miserable.
The game vs Annurag was honestly pretty close.
The fourth game vs Miracles was against one of my old DDFT buddies and the loss was all my fault.
I missed a Welder line that I should have seen from a mile away. I literally saw it as I passed turn.

All in all, it was a pretty meh showing from me, but I still feel rusty with the deck. I've been away far too long from my beloved Shortcake.
Nothing felt absolutely unwinnable, even against Post and Sneak & Show. I did kind of miss the 7th blast in the SB, but I don't think you can reasonably expect to play against Miracles for 4 rounds, in a row.

It was pretty funny to put in a Canonist off of Show & Tell when my opponent put in an Omniscience in game 3, even if it did only buy me one more turn before death.

[Hisa]

Also, for the majority of people here who aren't on 4 blood moon main, is it still worth it to play all the fast mana? (petals, SSG). I thought the point of that was to get out a turn one blood moon with a sol land. I understand you can power out a turn 1 copter a little easier if you need to. But other than that is it worth it?


This is where I'm at. I'm at 15 or 20 leagues with some variation on the 4 Cannonist list. Lotus Petal suuuccckkkksss.

I want it to be... literally anything else almost all the time I draw it. It's sometimes nice to be able to Petal -> Sol Land -> Painter and at least bluff the blast. It's sometimes nice to have the white source. Most of the time, however, it feels like I'm setting myself up to be two-for-one-d with marginal payoff. The addition of Chopper to this deck encourages to you to play long, grindy (http://www2.philly.com/resizer/g4tTR6q__7VGaDEQuPfy6JpS1Ec=/1400x0/center/middle/arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-pmn.s3.amazonaws.com/public/GPDOM3P7AZHI3J7RJNSLKEUVYM.jpg) games. Lotus petal does the opposite.

All of that being said, with 7-8 white cards main, the deck really needs a non-wasteable white source. I don't know if the solution is to make Opal work or to add a Plains. Both require re-jiggering of the mana base. Opal is probably where I'm going next.

Also, I'm off the 4+ Moon plan. Resolving a T1 blood moon and just being down two cards for nothing is the pits. It's not remotely the free win it used to be. I think one is still a good hedge, and maybe another in the board (Lands), but I'm just not interested in being down a card for the effect in most games.

[Michael Keller]

Keep in mind that Lotus Petal has built-in synergy with Welder-centric lists. Sometimes, you need an artifact in the graveyard early to protect Painter.

[sroncor1]

The 4 petals remain an absolute must in the deck. As Hollywood mentioned, they serve as more than just mana with the current configuration. Access to white mana and getting to the magic numbers of 3 and 5 in mana is also why they are critical to the functioning of the deck. The ability to increase your chances of first turn Copter basically replaces the first turn moon lines in many places, except it is fair easier to resolve.

With respect to Copter, it was not adopted for build up to long grindy games. While I will admit its loot effect and ability to be a reasonable attacker does allow a slower grind out the life total game, that is more a side effect or secondary consequence. The Copter was added as a way to get increased card selection in the early phases of the game. Often times you are looking at 2-3 loot effects for optimal value. The reason the card is so strong and works for us is that it allows us to but reasonable pressure on our opponent's life total while we do everything else we want. We are still a combo deck and the key will always be develop to board, resolve the combo and win through the small window of opportunity. Copter allows this through increased card selection, and ability to turn our tutors and utility creatures into actual threats and attacking a resource that we normally could never reliable attack. It is from this that we added another must answer threat to the deck all while fitting in the previous game plan.

With respect to basic plains, no you never want one in the list. You are and will always be a base red deck. With the number of sol lands in the deck, it adds to much inconsistency to the deck to have another non red producing land.

While I can not speak to the 3 color lists, I would think the best approach there would be probably just moving past the Blood Moon and embracing the dual land heavy mana base. This way you have color stability in the manabase at the risk of opening yourself to hate. The reason this may be acceptable is that Ancient Tomb is still your best land in a vacuum, and will probably still draw the first Wasteland.

Seth

[drude1]

The 4 petals remain an absolute must in the deck. As Hollywood mentioned, they serve as more than just mana with the current configuration. Access to white mana and getting to the magic numbers of 3 and 5 in mana is also why they are critical to the functioning of the deck. The ability to increase your chances of first turn Copter basically replaces the first turn moon lines in many places, except it is fair easier to resolve.

With respect to Copter, it was not adopted for build up to long grindy games. While I will admit its loot effect and ability to be a reasonable attacker does allow a slower grind out the life total game, that is more a side effect or secondary consequence. The Copter was added as a way to get increased card selection in the early phases of the game. Often times you are looking at 2-3 loot effects for optimal value. The reason the card is so strong and works for us is that it allows us to but reasonable pressure on our opponent's life total while we do everything else we want. We are still a combo deck and the key will always be develop to board, resolve the combo and win through the small window of opportunity. Copter allows this through increased card selection, and ability to turn our tutors and utility creatures into actual threats and attacking a resource that we normally could never reliable attack. It is from this that we added another must answer threat to the deck all while fitting in the previous game plan.

With respect to basic plains, no you never want one in the list. You are and will always be a base red deck. With the number of sol lands in the deck, it adds to much inconsistency to the deck to have another non red producing land.

While I can not speak to the 3 color lists, I would think the best approach there would be probably just moving past the Blood Moon and embracing the dual land heavy mana base. This way you have color stability in the manabase at the risk of opening yourself to hate. The reason this may be acceptable is that Ancient Tomb is still your best land in a vacuum, and will probably still draw the first Wasteland.

Seth

Let me first preface this by saying that I am still on the 4 x blood moon plan (although considering moving 3 of them to the SB), so for me petals definitely feel necessary. I am also playing 2 x mox opal in my list so every so often I get to 3 mana on turn 1 with furnace + opal + petal. Not to mention I am also still on 3 color. Point being I am not considering cutting my petals any time soon. Having said that, I can assume that pretty much anyone who is posting on this forum with any regularity has gotten their fair share of painter games in and have become familiar with the play patterns of the deck. And I will say that I have probably lost more games to mana screw than to any other issue.

The problem is that although the fast mana speeds us up a turn, it is for just one turn and because we are just playing 19 lands we are then hoping to God that we draw lands in the next few turns to catch up. Historically, a turn 1 blood moon was either good enough to just completely hose your opponent or at least good enough to buy multiple turns for us to find our lands, so the risk was worth it. However, if you aren't playing blood moon then you are speeding up for 1 turn and essentially wastelanding yourself in order to drop a smuggler's copter on turn one. A vast majority of the time you are holding that petal for the white spell in your hand and wish it was just a fetch land so that you could use it more than once. I don't know that that is worth it. Those 5 quick mana could just as easily be more fetch lands and then you aren't going to have that issue. With that switch, one plains would probably be reasonable to consider. You could also make a split between more lands and some number or petals or a couple opals or some other fixer. And yes, I also agree that the main purpose of the smuggler's copter is to filter through your deck and increase card selection. But copter is doing that at one card per turn, so I would have to agree with Hisa that copter is set up to help over the course of several turns, and in legacy, anything past turn 5 is probably considered a "grindy" game. Also, I get the petals do serve some other functions such as welder fodder, etc. Those interactions aren't nothing. But they don't fix the issue I'm talking about.

Honestly, I just put it out there as something to think about. I haven't tested it but wrote it out of frustration after losing yet another game to mana screw. I certainly can't agree with sentiments such as "absolute" or "never". The landscape is always changing in this game, and as Jack stated in his last post, "keep testing random shit."

On that note, I finally got my Daretti list to a point where I am running it through my first league (I'm really stingy with tickets which is why I'm always in the practice room). 3-0 so far. I'll post similar to what SDBobPlisken has been doing when I'm done, as I just can't find time to play through the entire league at once and am kind of getting through it piece-meal style. Daretti has honestly been a house so far. Blood moon has been very good in some games but admittedly is not so great in others. As I said, I could see going to 1 in the main. This issue for me is that it is so good against certain decks that I really want to be at 4 in those match-ups. For example, a turn 1-2 blood moon against grixis control is really good still. I know others don't feel that way as they are playing more basics these days. But if they don't have a chance to fetch those basics, it can really be a winning strategy against that deck. And by far the biggest reason I would consider not playing this deck at eternal weekend is because of the grixis control match-up. And that deck is EVERYWHERE.:mad:

[sco0ter]

Why is Ethersworn Canonist the preferred two drop of choice?

Or why is it a 4-off? Why not play a toolbox with these creatures, which all seem quite reasonable as well:


Stoneforge Mystic
Spirit of the Labyrinth
Remorseful Cleric
Aegis of the Gods
Phyrexian Revoker
Harsh Mentor

[SDBobPlissken]

Let me first preface this by saying that I am still on the 4 x blood moon plan (although considering moving 3 of them to the SB), so for me petals definitely feel necessary. I am also playing 2 x mox opal in my list so every so often I get to 3 mana on turn 1 with furnace + opal + petal. Not to mention I am also still on 3 color. Point being I am not considering cutting my petals any time soon. Having said that, I can assume that pretty much anyone who is posting on this forum with any regularity has gotten their fair share of painter games in and have become familiar with the play patterns of the deck. And I will say that I have probably lost more games to mana screw than to any other issue.

The problem is that although the fast mana speeds us up a turn, it is for just one turn and because we are just playing 19 lands we are then hoping to God that we draw lands in the next few turns to catch up. Historically, a turn 1 blood moon was either good enough to just completely hose your opponent or at least good enough to buy multiple turns for us to find our lands, so the risk was worth it. However, if you aren't playing blood moon then you are speeding up for 1 turn and essentially wastelanding yourself in order to drop a smuggler's copter on turn one. A vast majority of the time you are holding that petal for the white spell in your hand and wish it was just a fetch land so that you could use it more than once. I don't know that that is worth it. Those 5 quick mana could just as easily be more fetch lands and then you aren't going to have that issue. With that switch, one plains would probably be reasonable to consider. You could also make a split between more lands and some number or petals or a couple opals or some other fixer. And yes, I also agree that the main purpose of the smuggler's copter is to filter through your deck and increase card selection. But copter is doing that at one card per turn, so I would have to agree with Hisa that copter is set up to help over the course of several turns, and in legacy, anything past turn 5 is probably considered a "grindy" game. Also, I get the petals do serve some other functions such as welder fodder, etc. Those interactions aren't nothing. But they don't fix the issue I'm talking about.

Honestly, I just put it out there as something to think about. I haven't tested it but wrote it out of frustration after losing yet another game to mana screw. I certainly can't agree with sentiments such as "absolute" or "never". The landscape is always changing in this game, and as Jack stated in his last post, "keep testing random shit."

On that note, I finally got my Daretti list to a point where I am running it through my first league (I'm really stingy with tickets which is why I'm always in the practice room). 3-0 so far. I'll post similar to what SDBobPlisken has been doing when I'm done, as I just can't find time to play through the entire league at once and am kind of getting through it piece-meal style. Daretti has honestly been a house so far. Blood moon has been very good in some games but admittedly is not so great in others. As I said, I could see going to 1 in the main. This issue for me is that it is so good against certain decks that I really want to be at 4 in those match-ups. For example, a turn 1-2 blood moon against grixis control is really good still. I know others don't feel that way as they are playing more basics these days. But if they don't have a chance to fetch those basics, it can really be a winning strategy against that deck. And by far the biggest reason I would consider not playing this deck at eternal weekend is because of the grixis control match-up. And that deck is EVERYWHERE.:mad:

Looking forward to seeing your list in action. I think as Jack said if you’re going to play a basic plains it needs to be your 20th land. Opals sound good but it just seems like they can be difficult to turn on and if you are playing multiple artifact lands you are exposed to wasteland and back to basics more. Im really finding the meta to be unfavorable right now towards the deck. I’ve been having a pretty hard time against UW miracles and Grixis Control. Then it also seems like when I run into a deck vulnerable to blood moon like lands or RUG Delver I’m not favored also because of the low moon count.

[aslidsiksoraksi]

Why is Ethersworn Canonist the preferred two drop of choice?

Or why is it a 4-off? Why not play a toolbox with these creatures, which all seem quite reasonable as well:


Stoneforge Mystic
Spirit of the Labyrinth
Remorseful Cleric
Aegis of the Gods
Phyrexian Revoker
Harsh Mentor


All of these are playable, but none of them is as proactive, disruptive, and fits in with the deck as well as Canonist. Canonist makes blasts unanswerable, severely slows down the opponent by stopping them from chaining cantrips into anything, and beats reasonably well. And just for gravy it can be welded.

SFM requires a lot of slots
SoL is fragile and does almost what canonist does in hosing cantrips
Cleric is very niche, we are not super weak to graveyard decks anyway, and can have hate out the board
Aegis again very narrow, can only see this in the storm or burn matchups, where again canonist is good
Revoker I like more than the rest, but also sort of narrow, probably a 1-2x or a couple in the board
Mentor I just think is bad tbh, punishing via damage in a deck that doesn't put a ton of pressure on life totals is just a weak plan

[Hisa]

The 4 petals remain an absolute must in the deck. As Hollywood mentioned, they serve as more than just mana with the current configuration. Access to white mana and getting to the magic numbers of 3 and 5 in mana is also why they are critical to the functioning of the deck. The ability to increase your chances of first turn Copter basically replaces the first turn moon lines in many places, except it is fair easier to resolve.

With respect to Copter, it was not adopted for build up to long grindy games. While I will admit its loot effect and ability to be a reasonable attacker does allow a slower grind out the life total game, that is more a side effect or secondary consequence. The Copter was added as a way to get increased card selection in the early phases of the game. Often times you are looking at 2-3 loot effects for optimal value. The reason the card is so strong and works for us is that it allows us to but reasonable pressure on our opponent's life total while we do everything else we want. We are still a combo deck and the key will always be develop to board, resolve the combo and win through the small window of opportunity. Copter allows this through increased card selection, and ability to turn our tutors and utility creatures into actual threats and attacking a resource that we normally could never reliable attack. It is from this that we added another must answer threat to the deck all while fitting in the previous game plan.

With respect to basic plains, no you never want one in the list. You are and will always be a base red deck. With the number of sol lands in the deck, it adds to much inconsistency to the deck to have another non red producing land.

While I can not speak to the 3 color lists, I would think the best approach there would be probably just moving past the Blood Moon and embracing the dual land heavy mana base. This way you have color stability in the manabase at the risk of opening yourself to hate. The reason this may be acceptable is that Ancient Tomb is still your best land in a vacuum, and will probably still draw the first Wasteland.

Seth

I guess I conceptualize the deck differently than you do. Painter, to me, has always been a combo deck in the vein of Splinter Twin. That is, a deck with a two card (i.e. easy to assemble) combo as its plan 1A and something more traditional as it's 1B. By making your opponent overextend or bring it narrow sideboard cards to combat 1A your 1B improves. In the UR version the 1B is planeswalker control. In classic Imperial (and, I think, Shortcake) it has always been mediocre beats, welder tricks, and prison. Copter helps both 1A and 1B.

Painter is not ANT and it is not SnT. If I wanted to play a combo deck that just tries to power through all of my opponents answers I would play one of those. This deck tries to set up a situation where your opponent Surgicals your grindstone and you attack for three in the air and get virtual card advantage. Many many of the games I play are won the way Garfield intended.


I mostly agree with you about the plains. I was just talking about options for re-jiggering the mana base.

It literally never occurred to me to petal out a T1 Chopper. Don't get me wrong, it is a high impact card, just not in the way Blood Moon or Chalice is. I have mostly used them as protection for a t1/2 Painter and quicker activation of grindstone.


Anyway, you should play the deck in the way that makes you comfortable and successful. The way I play the deck reflects the way I think about it and what I think the most important cards in it are.

[sco0ter]

I don't know if the solution is to make Opal work or to add a Plains. Both require re-jiggering of the mana base. Opal is probably where I'm going next.



Keep in mind that Lotus Petal has built-in synergy with Welder-centric lists. Sometimes, you need an artifact in the graveyard early to protect Painter.

I've once played Mox Opal + Mishra's Bauble + Goblin Welder in another (non-Painter) deck and was quite happy with it.
I've also looked for a way to enable Welder early and Bauble did the job quite well, while also helping Opal.
Just some thoughts.

[LeoCop 90]

I also had the feeling that 19 lands may not be enough for the deck, especially without top. Before you could keep one landers with top and have a reasonable chance of finding your second land. Now it's more difficult.

So in fact i cut one of the petals for the dreaded basic plains as 20th land. I don't know if it's right or wrong, i just feel that with 19 lands i get manascrewed too often and wasteland becomes a nightmare.

[swampcaster]

@drude1 i think you have some very valid points. I am actually loving the 1 - 1 blood moon in the board because my meta is super basic heavy right now. I feel the simian spirit guide and the lotus petals really suck in the list. I almost want to cut a few of them and up the lavaman or welder count so i can go 1 drop into copter.

I'm currently playing 2 canonist 2 revoker split and liking it a lot. Cratermaker and walking ballistic have done infinite work for me in the last couple of weeks and seem super excellent in the list.
I feel the list could cut a couple of the enlightened tutors and just move up in the way of creatures, i seem to be winning a good amount of my games through simple aggro.

Also why is no one playing pia and kiran nalaar anymore? I am constantly fetching for this card. It's a 3 for 1 most of the time and an absolute house at going wide.

I am interested in the mono red list that was mentioned with red deretti. Sound interesting, there are so many great red cards available right now like rabble master that we could be playing. Also bomat courier in a mono red list sounds like a interesting curve of value creatures now that deathrite is gone from the format.

[Mirrislegend]

Why is Ethersworn Canonist the preferred two drop of choice?

Or why is it a 4-off? Why not play a toolbox with these creatures, which all seem quite reasonable as well:

Cast Canonist early, opponent ignores it. Cast Painter's Servant, opponent allows it because now they can pitch their spare lands (or discard spells, which are dead thanks to Welder) to their FoWs. Cast Grindstone, opponent responds with countermagic or removal on Painter's Servant, you Pyroblast in response and (thanks to Canonist) neither of you can play any more non-artifact spells this turn so you activate your Grindstone without harassment.

It feels SO GOOD.

[drude1]

So I finally finished that first league. Ended up going 4-1. Here's a playback for all to peruse. I sped through the playback a little...sorry. Also, I have dogs, one of which is snoring in the background through much of the video...again, sorry.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/329449851##

Let me know what you think.

[SDBobPlissken]

[QUOTE=drude1;1059212]So I finally finished that first league. Ended up going 4-1. Here's a playback for all to peruse. I sped through the playback a little...sorry. Also, I have dogs, one of which is snoring in the background through much of the video...again, sorry.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/329449851##

Let me know what you think

Nice league. Seems like Daretti was really solid. Hope to see more of his iteration.

[f7eleven]

I put this together and played it in a local weekly this past Sunday - it wasn't as much fun as I thought it would be (I had high hopes). The deck kind of reminded me of RIP/Helm -- draw these two specific cards and just win. Was more fun digging with Copter and/or fighting though interaction. Goblin Welder was by far the most fun card, though. And I was impressed by Goblin Cratermaker after four rounds of it always doing things.

Anyway, I copied the Kap'n Cook list from post #270 but wasn't comfortable not running a Plains, so only 2x Plateau. I then switched the fetches to 4x Arid Mesa, 1x Scalding Tarn. Something I've liked doing with Bomberman in the past is NOT diversifying the fetches -- in a deck with this many activated abilities, I think we'd welcome a needle effect being wasted on a fetch.

The SB flex spot was the 4th Canonist.

I finished 4-0 beating Infect, Infect again, Naya Lumberjack, and Goblins -- our store is weird; very few tier decks get played.

[oliverpool]

Still a pretty good result!

I still do feel that something is missing without Top. Some games you just breeze through. Others, it becomes a grind :-p where its just a pain. We need more cards to help filter our hands. Maybe some Koth or Chandra or something. But I feel the latest KapnCook list is looking good.



I put this together and played it in a local weekly this past Sunday - it wasn't as much fun as I thought it would be (I had high hopes). The deck kind of reminded me of RIP/Helm -- draw these two specific cards and just win. Was more fun digging with Copter and/or fighting though interaction. Goblin Welder was by far the most fun card, though. And I was impressed by Goblin Cratermaker after four rounds of it always doing things.

Anyway, I copied the Kap'n Cook list from post #270 but wasn't comfortable not running a Plains, so only 2x Plateau. I then switched the fetches to 4x Arid Mesa, 1x Scalding Tarn. Something I've liked doing with Bomberman in the past is NOT diversifying the fetches -- in a deck with this many activated abilities, I think we'd welcome a needle effect being wasted on a fetch.

The SB flex spot was the 4th Canonist.

I finished 4-0 beating Infect, Infect again, Naya Lumberjack, and Goblins -- our store is weird; very few tier decks get played.

[Mirrislegend]

What are the SB Pyroclasms for? Everything else seems fairly straightforward except for those.

[SDBobPlissken]

What are the SB Pyroclasms for? Everything else seems fairly straightforward except for those.

Mainly for D&T, elves, and infect. Was even pretty decent against enchantress since it didn’t target and could kill off their enablers. Those are the matches I would board all of them in for and maybe board in one for the storm match up in case they go goblins. I have since switched the pyroclasms for sulfur elementals as others have talked about doing and have liked it. It’s still good vs D&T and that is probably the most popular of those aforementioned decks and also clears the board of mentor tokens. You also have painter on white in a pinch to get rid of 1/1’s and hopefully boost your team.

[Mirrislegend]

Sulfur Elemental to kill off Mentor tokens is pretty sexy. Too bad you can't get it with Imperial Recruiter.

[8bit9mm]

Sulfur Elemental to kill off Mentor tokens is pretty sexy. Too bad you can't get it with Imperial Recruiter.

I've been playing 2 Clasm, 1 Sulfur Elemental as of late. Clasm is still good and has a wider range of applications, but Sulfur Elemental is still great and can be an absolute blowout vs DnT. Thus, I've decided I wanted both.

[drude1]

Or you can splash black and tutor for a dread of night!!!

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[8bit9mm]

Or you can splash black and tutor for a dread of night!!!

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

I've never actually been a fan of Dread of Night.

If I'm splashing black, I'm playing Massacre.

[drude1]

I've never actually been a fan of Dread of Night.

If I'm splashing black, I'm playing Massacre.You can't tutor for massacre. Dread of night is continuous so it's so much better against things like elves. However, you could play both. I also play a toxic deluge.


Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[Mirrislegend]

Dread of night is continuous so it's so much better against things like elves.

Dread of Night doesn't hit Elves. Did you mean Engineered Plague? Or Night of Soul's Betrayal?

[8bit9mm]

Dread of Night doesn't hit Elves. Did you mean Engineered Plague? Or Night of Soul's Betrayal?

It does if you name white with Painter.

[finksfinksfinks]

Hey, what are you guys bringing in against miracles? It's big where I play and I'd like to shore up the match

[CptHaddock]

Hey, what are you guys bringing in against miracles? It's big where I play and I'd like to shore up the match

Bring in additional threats, hedgemage (if you're playing him), extra blasts, bolts/spot removal (if you're playing it) and i've been a little on the fence about this before but I think that I would bring in surgical in that matchup now.

[8bit9mm]

Hey, what are you guys bringing in against miracles? It's big where I play and I'd like to shore up the match

Sideboard (15):
1 Blood Moon
1 Containment Priest
1 Duergar Hedge-Mage
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Goblin Cratermaker
1 Karn, Scion of Urza
1 Magus of the Moon
2 Pyroclasm
1 Sulfur Elemental
4 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt

In:
1 Duergar Hedge-Mage
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Karn, Scion of Urza
1 Sulfur Elemental
4 Surgical Extraction

Out:
4 Lotus Petal
1 Blood Moon
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Enlightened Tutor

That's generally how I board against Miracles. It may be wrong to board out the EE, but I always want to be the beatdown in that match-up.
Copter is easily the best card in the match-up, in my opinion.

[Mr. Headshot]

Miracles -> additional blasts, planewalkers, creatures (doesn't matter what precisely, if it can beat it's okay), artifact/enchantments-removal and... pray.

I'm currently brewing with a RWB-build with Daretti Ingenious Iconoclast and... Dark Confidant. Dark Confidant seems like a house. The drawing-power to combine Dark Confidant with Copter seems strong. Also Bob plays very well with copter because he has a little body himself. Has anyone tried Dark Confidant in painter?

Surely I need to rethink the manabase. Due to the fact that we don't rely (less and less) on explosive moon-effects to win I feel it would make (more and more) sense.

Best regards,

[drude1]

I have developed a new appreciation for Karn. It is such a good card, particularly against miracles and grixis control. He is pure card advantage and can make some huge beaters. If he had any sort of ultimate it would be totally over the top. Moved up to two in my board. People just straight up scoop to that card online

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[Mirrislegend]

How well does this deck handle budget restrictions? I own one Plateau and zero City of Traitors, but everything else is manageable. I have a feeling the missing Plateaus will be okay, but the City of Traitors seem pretty critical to many lines of play.

Is it worth playing the deck without City or should I stick to other decks until I can skip enough meals to buy Cities of the Traitorous variety?

[Kap'n Cook]

How well does this deck handle budget restrictions? I own one Plateau and zero City of Traitors, but everything else is manageable. I have a feeling the missing Plateaus will be okay, but the City of Traitors seem pretty critical to many lines of play.

Is it worth playing the deck without City or should I stick to other decks until I can skip enough meals to buy Cities of the Traitorous variety?

The deck will work, it just won't be as fast. The 4th city has never felt too necessary as you only really want one and double city hands are usually mulls unless they have the combo or fast mana. Additional white sources come up a decent amount too as a lot of times you just have to fetch white into Wasteland to tutor. The third was only added recently, so two plateau should be okay. You can't run hedge-mage without two or three though. If you aren't going to run cities, maybe you can get away with a plains, although everyone here knows my feelings about a plains as one of the 19 mainboard lands lol


Over the last two months since Baltimore I've only been able to play about 30-ish matches (2 challenges, 3 leagues, 1 monthly maybe?). The results have been bad, losing probably half of the games. Granted, it is a small sample size, but the losses have been a combination of testing different boards with weird cards, playing really poorly, and even a feeling of unluckiness in close game 3s. I've punted a lot, and in general am still learning a lot about Copter and how strange it makes the lines. Either way, I'll just post what I am planning to test more in depth moving forward and thoughts.


4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Plateau
3 Mountain
1 Great Furnace
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire

4 Lotus Petal
1 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter's Servant
3 Goblin Welder
3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Walking Ballista
1 Goblin Cratermaker

4 Grindstone
4 Smuggler's Copter

1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Blood Moon

3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast


Sideboard:

4 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Containment Priest
1 Duergar Hedge-Mage
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Sulfur Elemental
1 Blood Moon
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Karn, Scion of Urza


Surgical has been very good, as the graveyard decks are just too fast now. I wish I could just jam 4 Rest in Peace and a Helm as that would make the Grixis matchup a bye, but Reanimator being Black-Red instead of Black-Blue means there isn't enough time and blasts can't delay careful studies. Surgical keeps us alive just often enough against Reanimator and Dredge to find the Crypt or Priest. More importantly, Surgical gives us more viable alternatives to fighting Show and Tell and Miracles, which is another reason I wanted to max out the blasts. I have also experimented with starting to bring some in against grixis, as you will probably get two for one'd by the first k-command, but removing that with Surgical lets you fight the Snapcasters more readily through normal blasts and canonists, and lets you try to trade 1 for 1 long enough to win. Again, it's been a really small sample size, but it has felt a little bit better recently. As for boarding against these control decks, I have been chopping all petals/tutors, and usually don't even bother with trying to Blood Moon them anymore. Play/draw there could be an argument to switching slightly, but on the whole this has been the plan.

Sulfur Elemental. Initially I was running all the pyroclasms (and was going to consider whipflare eventually), but DnT has felt very winnable without them. The hope was that there would be more random creature decks popping up with the bannings, but since then it has settled into the usual Miracles/Chalice/Ape Combo meta we all expected. I'm really not sure what Wizards thought would happen when they banned Top. So as the pyroclasm numbers went lower after cratermaker got a spot, I tried two Swords to Plowshares, for cross-hate against Reanimator/Shadow/Goyf/Angler, but then got ran over by Mentor tokens enough to want to switch back to Sulfur. It's also just a generally good anti-control card and can crew at instant speed, which isn't nothing. Obviously there can be the random blowouts against off-beat decks where you name white with Painter too. I do worry about the Elves/Infect matchups by dropping Swords/Clasms/Bolts/etc, but those matchups have always felt very coin-flippy regardless of what build you run, and the hope is that 4 Canonist can slow them down enough to do your thing. At the end of the day, Mentor and DnT are more likely to show up, where Sulfur is much better, than these other small creature decks, so I am okay with taking the hit there.

Hedge-Mage, Moon and Karn. These are the two flex spots I guess. The second moon is mainly for lands/loam/post and random monstrosities, since there are usually ways to destroy the first one. Having the backup copy has been just good enough, and if you ever want to play roulette against some of these three color decks you can always just board the second in on the play with all the fast mana and all the tutors to try to land one on turn 1 or likely turn 2. Hedge mage is back mostly for counterbalance and chalice, as having the etb ability complements Cratermaker and EE nicely. It also gives you a varied mana curve against Chalice. Plus you might just blowout Omni or sneak one out of every 20 games. Revoker could be here too if sneak attack is too prevalent, but I don't think it does enough outside of that matchup, as ANT is very favorable now anyways. For Karn, I just keep coming back to him. Like Dan said, he is just raw card advantage and will take over the game if allowed to live. It really does feel like the best card available that leverages the other shitty 73 cards we have to play.


Anyways, this list is more defined in what it wants to fight, mainly snapcaster and combo. It definitely gives up percentages against the middle tier stuff like shadow and chalice, but the hope is that we have enough to navigate those matchups as it is. As always, thoughts appreciated.

-jack

[Megadeus]

Maybe it's been discussed and tried already, but what about some number of Experimental Frenzy? It's great with ETutor and this deck has the mana to play it quickly if need be. I could see a 4 Welder version with Maybe a number of LED to make it even better. Also the deck has a decent amount of shuffle effects/copter to loot and try again for a new top card. It can't win on its own like a 4 mana walker, but it feels like it might warrant consideration

[pettdan]

Maybe it's been discussed and tried already, but what about some number of Experimental Frenzy? It's great with ETutor and this deck has the mana to play it quickly if need be. I could see a 4 Welder version with Maybe a number of LED to make it even better. Also the deck has a decent amount of shuffle effects/copter to loot and try again for a new top card. It can't win on its own like a 4 mana walker, but it feels like it might warrant consideration

I agree, I suggested it in the Discord a while ago. It doesn't play so well with Recruiter, but better with Ballista (can cast it for 0 if you're digging for other cards) and as you say E Tutor and LED. It would be nice to get som Mox Opals in too but that may be too hard to make work.. At least it changes the deck a lot. I tried one copy of Frenzy once at the LGS but never drew it in the matchups where it would have mattered. I'll surely try it again, here or in Grixis. It is a shame it doesn't work with Auriok Salvagers / Bomberman though..

[finksfinksfinks]

How well does this deck handle budget restrictions? I own one Plateau and zero City of Traitors, but everything else is manageable. I have a feeling the missing Plateaus will be okay, but the City of Traitors seem pretty critical to many lines of play.

Is it worth playing the deck without City or should I stick to other decks until I can skip enough meals to buy Cities of the Traitorous variety?

I'm in the exact same position. At the moment I'm using sacred foundry as a replacement plateau and a pair of crystal veins. They both feel pretty bad, but they do a passable imitation on critical turns

[drude1]

The deck will work, it just won't be as fast. The 4th city has never felt too necessary as you only really want one and double city hands are usually mulls unless they have the combo or fast mana. Additional white sources come up a decent amount too as a lot of times you just have to fetch white into Wasteland to tutor. The third was only added recently, so two plateau should be okay. You can't run hedge-mage without two or three though. If you aren't going to run cities, maybe you can get away with a plains, although everyone here knows my feelings about a plains as one of the 19 mainboard lands lol


Over the last two months since Baltimore I've only been able to play about 30-ish matches (2 challenges, 3 leagues, 1 monthly maybe?). The results have been bad, losing probably half of the games. Granted, it is a small sample size, but the losses have been a combination of testing different boards with weird cards, playing really poorly, and even a feeling of unluckiness in close game 3s. I've punted a lot, and in general am still learning a lot about Copter and how strange it makes the lines. Either way, I'll just post what I am planning to test more in depth moving forward and thoughts.


4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Plateau
3 Mountain
1 Great Furnace
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire

4 Lotus Petal
1 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter's Servant
3 Goblin Welder
3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Walking Ballista
1 Goblin Cratermaker

4 Grindstone
4 Smuggler's Copter

1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Blood Moon

3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast


Sideboard:

4 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Containment Priest
1 Duergar Hedge-Mage
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Sulfur Elemental
1 Blood Moon
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Karn, Scion of Urza


Surgical has been very good, as the graveyard decks are just too fast now. I wish I could just jam 4 Rest in Peace and a Helm as that would make the Grixis matchup a bye, but Reanimator being Black-Red instead of Black-Blue means there isn't enough time and blasts can't delay careful studies. Surgical keeps us alive just often enough against Reanimator and Dredge to find the Crypt or Priest. More importantly, Surgical gives us more viable alternatives to fighting Show and Tell and Miracles, which is another reason I wanted to max out the blasts. I have also experimented with starting to bring some in against grixis, as you will probably get two for one'd by the first k-command, but removing that with Surgical lets you fight the Snapcasters more readily through normal blasts and canonists, and lets you try to trade 1 for 1 long enough to win. Again, it's been a really small sample size, but it has felt a little bit better recently. As for boarding against these control decks, I have been chopping all petals/tutors, and usually don't even bother with trying to Blood Moon them anymore. Play/draw there could be an argument to switching slightly, but on the whole this has been the plan.

Sulfur Elemental. Initially I was running all the pyroclasms (and was going to consider whipflare eventually), but DnT has felt very winnable without them. The hope was that there would be more random creature decks popping up with the bannings, but since then it has settled into the usual Miracles/Chalice/Ape Combo meta we all expected. I'm really not sure what Wizards thought would happen when they banned Top. So as the pyroclasm numbers went lower after cratermaker got a spot, I tried two Swords to Plowshares, for cross-hate against Reanimator/Shadow/Goyf/Angler, but then got ran over by Mentor tokens enough to want to switch back to Sulfur. It's also just a generally good anti-control card and can crew at instant speed, which isn't nothing. Obviously there can be the random blowouts against off-beat decks where you name white with Painter too. I do worry about the Elves/Infect matchups by dropping Swords/Clasms/Bolts/etc, but those matchups have always felt very coin-flippy regardless of what build you run, and the hope is that 4 Canonist can slow them down enough to do your thing. At the end of the day, Mentor and DnT are more likely to show up, where Sulfur is much better, than these other small creature decks, so I am okay with taking the hit there.

Hedge-Mage, Moon and Karn. These are the two flex spots I guess. The second moon is mainly for lands/loam/post and random monstrosities, since there are usually ways to destroy the first one. Having the backup copy has been just good enough, and if you ever want to play roulette against some of these three color decks you can always just board the second in on the play with all the fast mana and all the tutors to try to land one on turn 1 or likely turn 2. Hedge mage is back mostly for counterbalance and chalice, as having the etb ability complements Cratermaker and EE nicely. It also gives you a varied mana curve against Chalice. Plus you might just blowout Omni or sneak one out of every 20 games. Revoker could be here too if sneak attack is too prevalent, but I don't think it does enough outside of that matchup, as ANT is very favorable now anyways. For Karn, I just keep coming back to him. Like Dan said, he is just raw card advantage and will take over the game if allowed to live. It really does feel like the best card available that leverages the other shitty 73 cards we have to play.


Anyways, this list is more defined in what it wants to fight, mainly snapcaster and combo. It definitely gives up percentages against the middle tier stuff like shadow and chalice, but the hope is that we have enough to navigate those matchups as it is. As always, thoughts appreciated.

-jackSo a couple things....

First, do you really think RiP/helm is that strong against grixis? Is that just because they have essentially no answer to enchantments? What about leyline/helm then? What if you were playing black? I keep going back and forth on this. Leylines are obviously fast enough vs the graveyard decks as long as they are in your opening hand. Then the only issue is are surgicals that important in other match ups such as miracles.
Speaking of which, given how much you are on sulfur elemental, if you were playing black would you play dread of night?

A couple more observations...
I think leyline of sanctity is playable online. It's iffy but I've been seeing a ton of discard centric decks online lately. Thoughtseize is everywhere. Leyline is actually pretty good against grixis. I would not bring them to a paper tourney though.
I also think sphere of law is playable. This is mostly due to the mono red stompy and goblin match ups. Stompy in particular seems to really be gaining popularity again.
And finally, I am admittedly on the bandwagon of only running 1 blood moon main and therefore cut one petal for the twentieth land. I am still definitely running more moons in the board though, for the exact reasons Jack mentioned. And I actually still hold it as a priority in the grixis and bug control match ups. And as you can probably tell, I am still splashing black for daretti.[emoji857]

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[Kap'n Cook]

So a couple things....

First, do you really think RiP/helm is that strong against grixis? Is that just because they have essentially no answer to enchantments? What about leyline/helm then? What if you were playing black? I keep going back and forth on this. Leylines are obviously fast enough vs the graveyard decks as long as they are in your opening hand. Then the only issue is are surgicals that important in other match ups such as miracles.
Speaking of which, given how much you are on sulfur elemental, if you were playing black would you play dread of night?

A couple more observations...
I think leyline of sanctity is playable online. It's iffy but I've been seeing a ton of discard centric decks online lately. Thoughtseize is everywhere. Leyline is actually pretty good against grixis. I would not bring them to a paper tourney though.
I also think sphere of law is playable. This is mostly due to the mono red stompy and goblin match ups. Stompy in particular seems to really be gaining popularity again.
And finally, I am admittedly on the bandwagon of only running 1 blood moon main and therefore cut one petal for the twentieth land. I am still definitely running more moons in the board though, for the exact reasons Jack mentioned. And I actually still hold it as a priority in the grixis and bug control match ups. And as you can probably tell, I am still splashing black for daretti.[emoji857]

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


Grixis feels like a Blue Jund deck of the previous meta, where instead of Bloodbraid cascading into decay/bolt/hymn it's snapcaster, and angler/goyf. I haven't played any RIPs so this idea is basically just theory, but RIP answers their biggest beater by making it uncastable, and after taking care of snapcaster you can start trying to trade 1 for 1 with blasts/removal, and gives you an autowin with etutor when the game goes long. Welders would probably need to be boarded down to 1 though in this case, which is another weird thing to consider.


Leylines are definitely the very best hate, but my main question would be the manabase. I would think since we are a sol land/petal deck, we can reasonably expect to hardcast drawn leylines turn 2 or 3. But does that mean playing a Scrubland and 2 Badlands on top of Plateaus and basics? I wouldn't really know where to start on a list along those lines, but what is your most recent list? Curious of a few things.

For dread of night, how often are you using it for painter name white against stuff like elves or infect? Seems worse than sulfur against Mentor since its not a threat on its own/copterable, although better against DnT being tutorable and cheap. Leads to the scrubland question again. Are you playing an Engineered Plague?

[Mirrislegend]

Our combo plan, in game 1, is completely dead against Sneak and Show or any variant that plays original Emrakul, right? I just want to be certain.

[Michael Keller]

If I ran Leyline, I would run some Chrome Moxen. Not only can you imprint them (non-artifact or land, of course) with Painter in play and gain speed like you would with Lotus Petal, but Leyline doesn't become an entirely dead draw should you choose to play it in your sideboard.

[Megadeus]

If I ran Leyline, I would run some Chrome Moxen. Not only can you imprint them (non-artifact or land, of course) with Painter in play and gain speed like you would with Lotus Petal, but Leyline doesn't become an entirely dead draw should you choose to play it in your sideboard.

If painter is out and you imprint Leyline does the mox add blue? Does painter work on exiled cardscards?

[SDBobPlissken]

If painter is out and you imprint Leyline does the mox add blue? Does painter work on exiled cardscards?

Yup, it will work. In the short lived splash for intuition version this was a cool detail of playing chrome Mox.

And yes the combo does not work game 1 vs sneak and show, probably not game 2 and 3 either lol. I board out all but one grindstone and stick to the beatdown plan. Might not be right but it always seems easier than the three card combo. The good thing is that if you resolve bridge game 1 they usually don’t have an answer for it unless it’s a wish version. I’ll play against sneak and show all day over grixis control though. That matchup has just been terrible. I’ve been away from Mtgo for awhile and I’m hoping it has taken a down turn.

[Mirrislegend]

Yup, it will work. In the short lived splash for intuition version this was a cool detail of playing chrome Mox.

And yes the combo does not work game 1 vs sneak and show, probably not game 2 and 3 either lol. I board out all but one grindstone and stick to the beatdown plan. Might not be right but it always seems easier than the three card combo. The good thing is that if you resolve bridge game 1 they usually don’t have an answer for it unless it’s a wish version. I’ll play against sneak and show all day over grixis control though. That matchup has just been terrible. I’ve been away from Mtgo for awhile and I’m hoping it has taken a down turn.

So does SnT join Eldrazi and Depths as the primary reasons for more than 1 Bridge in the 75?

[8bit9mm]

So does SnT join Eldrazi and Depths as the primary reasons for more than 1 Bridge in the 75?

I haven't found the need for more than 1 Bridge in the SnT or Eldrazi matchups (especially Eldrazi since Moon and Painter mess with their mana heavily), but it might be a consideration for Depths, since they can usually remove your Bridge.

I've been considering a 2nd Bridge mostly because I've found people to be dusting off their Death's Shadows again online. Maybe I'll give Meekstone a go instead.

Also, I guess I forgot to post this here (what I've been working on putting back together in paper since I quit the deck post-Top-ban):

https://i.imgur.com/VW8hJfB.jpg?1
https://i.imgur.com/CMJ23Kw.jpg?1
https://i.imgur.com/asODf3U.jpg?1
https://i.imgur.com/sqdYfCs.jpg?1
https://i.imgur.com/0nrpWQ7.jpg?1

Still need to find JPN Portal Pyroclasms that aren't insanely expensive (for a Pyroclasm).

[Mirrislegend]

Holy shit that's gorgeous.

[Kap'n Cook]

Also, I guess I forgot to post this here (what I've been working on putting back together in paper since I quit the deck post-Top-ban):



Needs a playmat upgrade asap haha

[8bit9mm]

Needs a playmat upgrade asap haha

Well, I did pick up this one recently:

https://i.imgur.com/gsWRXlG.jpg?1

I've also got the Unlimited art Plateau mat as well.

[Kap'n Cook]

Went 5-2 in the challenge this past Sunday. I beat DnT, 5c Humans, Mentor-Bomberman, Black Reanimator, and Smalldrazi, while losing to Miracles and Show and Tell. The list I played is the same one I posted earlier, although I switched the sideboard blood moon for a revoker, solely for Sneak Attack. I still used Sulfur Elementals, which helped vs the mentor deck, but I am still going back and forth on it vs pyroclasm. I guess the answer is that neither are amazing, and it's just a hedge against what you expect to play and want more help with. I probably will switch up more of the numbers/sideboard moving forward, I just don't know what should be in there. For show and tell, I don't think it matters. The matchup is just horrible and I am not sure if its even worth adding in more pieces beyond the canonist-blast plan.

At the end of the day, all you can really do is just thank Aaron Forsythe for keeping the fun stuff in the format like Counterbalance and Omniscience. Top was definitely the card sucking the life out of legacy.

[merfolkotpt]

So i had a quick question, when did this deck go away from Viashino Heretic as its maindeck answer to chalice?

[Kap'n Cook]

So i had a quick question, when did this deck go away from Viashino Heretic as its maindeck answer to chalice?


My thinking was that Cratermaker provides enough random incidental value in being able to shoot creatures/emrakul while still killing chalice and without needing to live a turn too. Granted, Painter messes with your ability to do that every so often which can cost you games. I wouldn't really fault anyone for wanting the heretic over it either, just depends on what you want to fight harder.

[Mirrislegend]

I'm going over the Matchups summary on the first page and I'm asking myself the same question over and over:

Against Grixis Control, could we again name White with Painter and bring in Sulfur Elemental? Increasing the power on Gurmag Angler sucks, but removing Strix and Snap as blockers seems very valuable (despite allowing for K Command to reuse the now dead value creatures).

Against Grixis Pyromancer, the same plan kills off Pyromancer, his tokens, and True Name Nemesis.

Naming White and bringing in Sulfur Elemental robs us of Welder utility. Is it worth the price to hold down opponents' threats? If not, in which matchups is Painter on White + Sulfur Elemental worthwhile?

[merfolkotpt]

I'm going over the Matchups summary on the first page and I'm asking myself the same question over and over:

Why name Black with Painter against Miracles? Naming White allows Sulfur Elemental to kill their Mentor tokens.

Against Grixis Control, could we again name White for the same reason? Increasing the power on Gurmag Angler sucks, but removing Strix and Snap blockers seems very valuable (despite allowing for K Command to reuse the now dead value creatures).

Against Grixis Pyromancer, the same plan kills off Pyromancer, his tokens, and True Name Nemesis.

Naming White and bringing in Sulfur Elemental robs us of Welder utility. Is it worth the price to hold down opponents' threats? If not, in which matchups is Painter on White + Sulfur Elemental worthwhile?

To the first one, it still kills mentor tokens right?

For the others i think against blue deck, personally, I would rather have the live welder?

It is SUPER good against elves.

[Mirrislegend]

To the first one, it still kills mentor tokens right?

Doh. Yes. I'll fix that.



For the others i think against blue deck, personally, I would rather have the live welder?


Even against Miracles, where important artifacts are much less likely to end up in the graveyard when they are answered?

[8bit9mm]

Even against Miracles, where important artifacts are much less likely to end up in the graveyard when they are answered?

You wouldn't name white against Miracles anyways.
I feel that Miracles is actually favored for us now, but one of the ways they can really climb out of the hole against us is with Mentor.
Everything else that matters out of them gets answered by our 6+ blasts.

Plus, bringing in extra bodies against Miracles is just a good idea anyways.

[Mirrislegend]

You wouldn't name white against Miracles anyways.
I feel that Miracles is actually favored for us now, but one of the ways they can really climb out of the hole against us is with Mentor.
Everything else that matters out of them gets answered by our 6+ blasts.

Plus, bringing in extra bodies against Miracles is just a good idea anyways.

Yeah it took me a sec but I follow.

[soconnor]

Fellow Painters,

First time poster, long time reader of the source. I played Strawberry Shortcake at the SCGCON winter 10,000 legacy cube, and figured I would share my deck and results.

Creatures – 17

X3 Goblin Welder
X4 Ethersworn Canonist
X4 Painter Servant
X1 Walking Ballista
X4 Imperial Recruiter
X1 Goblin Cratermaker

Spells – 23

X4 Smugglers Copter
X1 Ensnaring Bridge
X3 Lotus Petal
X4 Grind Stone
X3 Pyroblast
X2 Red Elemental Blast
X2 Enlightened Tutor
X2 Blood Moon
X2 Mox opal
X1 Engineered Explosives

Lands – 19

X4 Ancient Tomb
X2 City of Traitors
X3 Arid Mesa
X2 Wooded Foothills
X3 Great Furnace
X2 Plateau
X2 Mountain
X1 Plains

SB – 15

X2 Tormod’s Crypt
X3 Surgical Extraction
X1 Karn, Scion of Urza
X2 Sulfur Elemental
X1 Warmth
X1 Abrade
X1 Pyroblast
X2 Containment Priest
X1 Ratchet Bomb
X1 Vanshino Heritic


Round #1 - UBW Stoneblade 0-2 loss

Game 1 – I mull to five and never get anything going, rough start. . .

In: Heritic/x2 Sulfer/ Abrade
Out: E.E. /x2 canonist/moon

Game 2, Close game, but I get beat down by True Name Nemesis with Jit after my bridge gets disenchanted

Round #2 – 4 color loam 2-0 win

Game 1 & 2 – assemble a quick combo both games within a few turns. Game 2 I had turn one moon off Furnace, opal, petal, which felt awesome for me, but not my opponent

In: x3 Surgical/Karn/x2 Crypt
Out: x4 Canonist/x2 Copter

Round #3 – Dredge 1 -2 loss

Game 1, loose to a quick swarm of zombies

Game 2, pretty grindy game, but I was able to assemble the combo at 6 life

Game 3, another grindy game, I was able to get my opponent to 4 life, but died the next turn

In game three, I felt like a lost due to my lack of experience against dredge. Opening hand I had a crypt but blew it up to early not getting enough value. Didn’t draw anymore SB hate and couldn’t outrace my opponent.

In: x3 surgical/ x2 crypt
Out: x2 copter/ welder/ballista/cratermaker

Rounds #4 – Storm 2- 0 win

Game 1, Beat down with copter and combo off with opponent at 5 life

Game 2, Opponent makes an army of goblins turn 2 and I top deck E.E. next turn! I land canonist and beat down from there.

In: x3 Surgical/ Pyroblast
Out: Bridge/x2 welder/ Cratermaker

Round #5 Death and Taxes 2- 0 win

Game 1: A little back and forth with creatures and then I assemble the combo

Game 2: I have the nuts draw (Painter, Grindstone, Tomb, Land, Petal, Blast, Recruiter) and combo off turn two

In: Abrade/Heritic/x2 Sulfer/Karn
Out: x4 Canonist/E.E.

Round #6 Grixis Control 2-1 Win

Game 1: Managed to beat down opponent with copter after getting the combo disrupted multiple times with counter magic and K-command

Game 2: Mull to six, back and forth a bit but I can never get anything going and eventually die to Jace ultimate

Game 3: Discard and K-command give me a run for my money, but I eventually assemble the combo.

In: x2 Crypt/Pyroblast/Karn
Out: E.E./Cratermaker/Copter/Canonist

Ended 4-2, which was good enough for 14th place. Granted the tournament was small, around 45 people I think. The deck felt good and was a lot of fun to play.

I played the same build in a challenge the next day going 2-1-1

Beat – D&T (2-0), Eldrazi Post (2-1)
Loss – Grixis Control (0-2)
ID – Grixis Control, (we did play it out, 1-2)

* I’ve been on Shortcake for about a year and a half. Grixis control has been the worst match up for me; K-Command, discard, Snapcaster to cast K-Command again is brutal. I moved to the x2 Blood moon in the main to try and help with this matchup and with Eldrazi.

[merfolkotpt]

Doh. Yes. I'll fix that.



Even against Miracles, where important artifacts are much less likely to end up in the graveyard when they are answered?

Yeah I think bringing in welder is another MUST deal with creature, because they still have counters and he turns those off, more or less.

[merfolkotpt]

So where does the wisdom lie on pyroclasm vs sulfur elemental in the sb.

Also, I feel like I don't totally understand the ubiquitousness of Duergar Hedge Mage. I get that it can be fetched and also hits both enchantments and artifacts (in theory) but i wonder how often it actually hits enchantments. I feel like if that part is important i would rather play a different card, and if it isn't i would rather have Heretic/Cratermaker? If the enchantment part is important I might think about multiple wear//tear, or 1 slot for artifacts and 1 for war priest of thune?

Finally, is Karn a must run for the matchups with control decks? It feels very powerful to me, but it isn't always in lists on mtgtop8.

[pettdan]

I get the impression that both regarding Pyroclasm/Elemental and Karn, people are going back and forth and testing different things. Hedge-Mage reliably destroys artifacts, is recruitered for and unreliably deals with enchantments, so pick your solution, they all have trade-offs.

[8bit9mm]

@soconnor: That's a very interesting list. I've been considering a basic Plains for a while now.
The card I'm most interested in is Mox Opal. I feel like our artifact density isn't quite there to support it.
How often is it turned on for you?

@merfolkotpt: Duergar Hedge-Mage has been an allstar for me. It's a card I immediately put back in my SB. At worst, it's a Manic Vandal. At best, it's a complete and utter blowout. Most matchups where you actually want to destroy an enchantment, you are free to fetch up your Plateaus anyways.

As for Pyroclasm/Sulfur Elemental, I'm currently on a split. 2 Pyroclasm, 1 Sulfur Elemental. Pyroclasm is more reliable in general, but Sulfur Elemental is better than it seems on the surface.

Karn is definitely powerful in our deck; wish I had room for a 2nd one in the board. I have been considering Chandra, ToD again, though. Karn generally doesn't kill our opponent (although it does happen every now and then), but Chandra is an immediate must answer that gets out of control quickly. The issue is that we are skimping on Bridges as of late and Chandra really wants to sit behind a Bridge, whereas Karn doesn't really need to because he can always make a construct to protect itself.

[soconnor]

@8bit9mm - The two opals are something new I was trying out. I was running 3 great furnace main, upping my artifact count to 25 excluding the two opals. They were turned on a fair amount of times, including a turn one moon off opal, petal, furnace, but sometimes they was just cheap fuel for welder. The three furnaces does open the deck up to be more susceptible to wasteland, back to basics, and price of progress but the deck seems a little soft to that anyway. I had in a Pia and Karin Nalaar main which works well with the opals and extra furnaces, but went with the second moon main instead.

[merfolkotpt]

Mini write up of KFC Legacy Tuesday w/ RW Painter
Last night I played this list to a 2-2 finish at our local LGS in my first IRL outing with this version of the deck. Not very impressive by me, but both losses involved pretty severe misplays on my part, and I think I need to re-work the sideboard for the local meta, now that I have a better idea what is out there.


Mana
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Plateau
3 Mountain
1 Great Furnace
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Lotus Petal
1 Simian Spirit Guide
Critters
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter's Servant
3 Goblin Welder
3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Walking Ballista
1 Goblin Cratermaker
Spells
4 Grindstone
4 Smuggler's Copter
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Blood Moon
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
Sideboard
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 2 Karn, Scion of Urza
SB: 1 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Duergar Hedge-Mage
SB: 1 Blood Moon
SB: 1 Pyroclasm



Match 1: DnT (2-0)
He didn't know the matchup super well which in my experience is good news for the Painter player. Game 1, assembled the combo with backup relatively quickly after setting up a pretty strong board, and early blowing up his mother of runes with Pyroblast. Game 2 more of the same, with the addition of a blowout with sulfur elemental.

Sideboarding
IN:+1 Hedgemage +1 Pyroclasm +2 Sulfur Elemental
Out: 3 Canonist 1 Reb

Match 2 Omnishow by Frank (0-2)
Punted game 1 by grinding in response to his show and tell instead of waiting to see what he put in and possibly having an answer to ET for (he put in emrakul and i would have had enough to ET > Bridge if i hadn't grinded to see his whole deck). Game 2 was a long drawn out game and I didn't side in karns which in retrospect seemed like a mistake. I also was a little more cautious deploying the first ethersworn canonist than i should have been and he got a few extra cantrips in that might have been important. I also probably should have left in 1 more painter to allow pyroblast to blow up boseiju, or kept in/brought in blood moon, to fight boseiju. Bad matchup, made worse by not knowing how to sideboard, suggestions appreciated.

Match 3 UR Delver by Roger (1-2)
Lost game 1 getting tempo'd out especially with two timely wastelands. Second PUNT of the night, didn't bring in pyroclasm against the delver, young pyro deck, no explanation for that, just didn't notice until chatting after the game. Game 2 won off of Painter + sulfur elemental (not sure if this interaction is worth bringing in elemental or not). Game 3 came down to a fast start by him and me having to spend a sulfur elemental as a flash blocker against a young pyromancer, and then him immediately playing good backup threats. Mana development problems once again hindered me in this case deploying bothPainter and sulfur elemental which would have actually shut out his threats. Close match, could potentially be solved by a better sideboard plan and more cards

Match 4 Maverick (2-1)
Lost game 1 after stumbling on mana got stuck on two lands got, wastelanded, only drew one more land before he assembled thespian stage + DD. I did at one point have both painter and grindstone in play with 2 lands and questioned his play of Knight go get cradle to GSZ for a way to blow up a painter, rather than just waste me out of the game completely. I get that i run sol lands, so it would have given me a turn, but from my seat i felt like i would have lost quicker to wasteland. Post sideboard and bringing in like 6 cards, it mostly came down to fast blood moon + sulfur elemental game 2, which he was not expecting. And then turn 2 blood moon game 3.

Final Thoughts
Overall, I think the deck feels powerful, though i should probably note i beat nonblue decks and lost to brainstorm, which might be troubling. It is possible I should more aggressively red blast especially post board when I have 8? I also think the sideboard would be better with some changes for the local meta. My thinking is to punt rb reanimator a little more and have:
-1 Faerie Macabre -2 Tormod's Crypt +1 Grim Lavamancer +1 Rest In peace +1 Trinisphere.

I also am just not sure about Karn, I only had him in play once, and he was fine, though didn’t feel like he was wholly contributing to either the disruptive or combo game plan too much. That being said, I didn’t play against Control which I imagine would be the place he would shine most. To me karn feels less like a sideboard bullet, and more like a maindeckable card? Unclear.

Finally, I think the deck might want one more land, multiple games 1 wasteland really hindered me a lot, and I think with one more land (likely a fetch land to get a white mana or a utility land of some kind) I would have been happier. Alternatively 1 more piece of reusable artifact mana, maybe even like a boros signet, compared to UR painter with mox opal and monolith it just felt like it was starving for mana a couple times. In terms of what to cut, it seems like EE might be the most likely candidate? Both ballista and cratermaker had some really shining moments, but EE less so.

Note: I have sideboarding notes from the other matches but I left them at home. I will add them in once I head that way later today.

[Mirrislegend]

I've got a decent idea of cards to bring in for most matchups, but I'm having a hard time figuring out what to cut.

What cards do you tend to trim out first when sideboarding? When facing a removal heavy deck, do you just assume that the combo cannot fire quickly and sideboard out fast mana sources accordingly? When is Walking Ballista good or bad? Canonist is great for ending/preventing counterspell wars when you go to combo, but seems otherwise useless against Miracles and Grixis Control; is she worth keeping in?

[CptHaddock]

I've got a decent idea of cards to bring in for most matchups, but I'm having a hard time figuring out what to cut.

What cards do you tend to trim out first when sideboarding? When facing a removal heavy deck, do you just assume that the combo cannot fire quickly and sideboard out fast mana sources accordingly? When is Walking Ballista good or bad? Canonist is great for ending/preventing counterspell wars when you go to combo, but seems otherwise useless against Miracles and Grixis Control; is she worth keeping in?

You should never be boarding out the combo outside of maybe 1-2 grindstone vs S&T. There aren't any set rules on how to board but I usually take out some amount of fast mana postboard since matchups tend to slow down a little. Usually some amount of e-tutors for the fairer matchups and then usually some of the silver bullet targets that I am running (if any) that aren't really good in the matchup. Against heavy removal decks you just want to try to go under them or use your walkers to fight them on another axis I think that canonist is worth keeping in vs grixis/miracles since it limits the amount of resources that they can use.

[Mirrislegend]

I finally got in some significant reps with the deck this weekend. My most awkward hands/draws were those that were heavy with Imperial Recruiters. Ballista was fairly "meh" until the late game, so I find myself itching for a Recruiter-able beater for the earlier turns. Are there any combat-worthy creatures that could fill that slot?
I suppose another support creature in that slot would be viable too, though less exciting: probably Mother of Runes.

[8bit9mm]

I finally got in some significant reps with the deck this weekend. My most awkward hands/draws were those that were heavy with Imperial Recruiters. Ballista was fairly "meh" until the late game, so I find myself itching for a Recruiter-able beater for the earlier turns. Are there any combat-worthy creatures that could fill that slot?
I suppose another support creature in that slot would be viable too, though less exciting: probably Mother of Runes.

Copter is mainly the path we take to win via combat damage, in my experience.
Obviously, sometimes your band of misfits can just get there on their own, but Copter represents a significant clock and a real threat.
Goblin Rabblemaster/Legion Warboss are both beaters/armies-in-a-can that we can recruit for.
They both synergize with Moon and Bridge as well.

[Mirrislegend]

Copter is mainly the path we take to win via combat damage, in my experience.
Of course. That's really my point. When a hand is full of Recruiters and we can't draw into the combo or Copters, what can we do? A beater, other than Copter, that we can Recruiter for would be a major boon.


Goblin Rabblemaster/Legion Warboss are both beaters/armies-in-a-can that we can recruit for.
They both synergize with Moon and Bridge as well.
Nice! Much better than my ideas. I think Legion Warboss is the only real choice there, as we don't want to risk our beloved Welder in combat due to Rabblemaster.

[8bit9mm]

Nice! Much better than my ideas. I think Legion Warboss is the only real choice there, as we don't want to risk our beloved Welder in combat due to Rabblemaster.

I didn't think about that. I don't like the idea of being forced to send our Welder to his death.

[Megadeus]

I like the Legion Warboss idea. I currently have Pia & Kia and I guess Ballista kind of to recruit for when I'm going in on the beat down plan.

[Mirrislegend]

I like the Legion Warboss idea. I currently have Pia & Kia and I guess Ballista kind of to recruit for when I'm going in on the beat down plan.
P&K has some major benefits. They automatically generates extra bodies (unlike Warboss who has to wait for them) which is especially good for one of our problem matchups (Grixis Control). P&K can throw spare artifacts to the dome to increase the clock. P&K provides spare artifacts for Welder shenanigans. That having been said, double red is rough and at 4 mana I wonder if you may as well play Ballista.

This discussion is making me wonder if my disdain for Ballista is unwarranted. In which matchups does Ballista shine? How often do we get to 4 mana without using Copter to filter for lands while not using Petal/SSG?

[8bit9mm]

P&K has some major benefits. They automatically generates extra bodies (unlike Warboss who has to wait for them) which is especially good for one of our problem matchups (Grixis Control). P&K can throw spare artifacts to the dome to increase the clock. P&K provides spare artifacts for Welder shenanigans. That having been said, double red is rough and at 4 mana I wonder if you may as well play Ballista.

This discussion is making me wonder if my disdain for Ballista is unwarranted. In which matchups does Ballista shine? How often do we get to 4 mana without using Copter to filter for lands while not using Petal/SSG?

Ballista shines in the creature matchups.
Specifically, DnT, Elves, Humans, and Goblins.
I can't see myself ever cutting Ballista from the main.

It also clears out Strix so that you can get in with your Copter.

[merfolkotpt]

What about scab clan berserker as a "beatdown" option? It has some additional awesome to it, in that it makes finding answers more expensive, and it lives through some hate, like pyroclasm and stuff.

[Megadeus]

What about scab clan berserker as a "beatdown" option? It has some additional awesome to it, in that it makes finding answers more expensive, and it lives through some hate, like pyroclasm and stuff.
I think scab clan suffers from 2 problems. 1 its Mana is tougher in a deck of Sol lands, and 2 if it's just a recruiter Target then that means it's probably a turn 3 or 4 play at the earliest where at that point it's probably difficult for it to actually connect. And at that point the decks against where its ability shines have either killed you or used up a number of their cantrips. I think it's more a card relegated to moon Stompy where it can a bit more reliable cast it fast and play more copies

[merfolkotpt]

So another somewhat disappointing 2-2 performance at my local (good enough for 4th place, because my losses were the 1st and 2nd place players). Beat UR delver and ANT and lossed to Elves and Omnitell.

For elves, Game 1 had the one of rec sage turn 2 (no gsz needed) with it's good friend symbiote to just destroy me. Game 2 I felt firmly in control with the combo in hand and a goblin sharpshooter (new testing slot in sb) and he managed to natural order into archon of valor's reach naming artifact, which unless he makes a bad block or something is unbeatable unless i already had a painter in play.

For omnitell, I think this matchup is just miserable, i don't know what to side out, and am considering taking out all of the grindstones. Having Omni as an endboss at my local is really discouraging me from playing something without blue and black in it. Overall, I am 4-4 with the deck across these two weeks, and while I felt like I misplayed my way to a loss or 2 last week, this week, I felt like I probably played correctly for the most part, and it didn't really matter to the matches I lost.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Can't you sideboard Humility in this deck, as it doesn't stop Servant?

[Mirrislegend]

Can't you sideboard Humility in this deck, as it doesn't stop Servant?
That got axed in 2017, I believe.

[pettdan]

If Humility is in play, Painter entering won't result in the etb-effect happening so no color is chosen. Painter in play before Humility still has the effect though. This is my simple understanding.

Edit: so no, Painter doesn't seem great with Humility, but it's not a definitive nonbo.

[8bit9mm]

So another somewhat disappointing 2-2 performance at my local (good enough for 4th place, because my losses were the 1st and 2nd place players). Beat UR delver and ANT and lossed to Elves and Omnitell.

For elves, Game 1 had the one of rec sage turn 2 (no gsz needed) with it's good friend symbiote to just destroy me. Game 2 I felt firmly in control with the combo in hand and a goblin sharpshooter (new testing slot in sb) and he managed to natural order into archon of valor's reach naming artifact, which unless he makes a bad block or something is unbeatable unless i already had a painter in play.

For omnitell, I think this matchup is just miserable, i don't know what to side out, and am considering taking out all of the grindstones. Having Omni as an endboss at my local is really discouraging me from playing something without blue and black in it. Overall, I am 4-4 with the deck across these two weeks, and while I felt like I misplayed my way to a loss or 2 last week, this week, I felt like I probably played correctly for the most part, and it didn't really matter to the matches I lost.

Honestly, UR Delver is the toughest matchup for Shortcake out of all of those, IMO.
Elves and Omni (especially if it's straight Omnitell) aren't too bad. Both matchups we need to heavily lean on Canonist.
Omni is a much easier matchup than traditional Sneak & Show because they get completely wrecked by Canonist and all our blasts.
Archon out of Elves does suck. I've been under that lock before and it's miserable. Welder is technically a way out, but to do that without dying, you need to have stuff in the yard, or a copter to put it there, because you most likely wont have time discard to hand size.


Edit: Also, Petddan is correct about the interaction with Humility. That's the way it works now with the rules updates.

[Mirrislegend]

Elves and Omni (especially if it's straight Omnitell) aren't too bad. Both matchups we need to heavily lean on Canonist.
Is this why so many lists have the 4th Canonist in the SB?

[8bit9mm]

Is this why so many lists have the 4th Canonist in the SB?

I wouldn't say that's exactly why, but Canonist, in general, is a better hate piece than Moon in the current meta.

[merfolkotpt]

Yeah i just had a couple instances where i would put canonist into play off show and tell when they put in omni and they just sort of shrugged, passed, my upkeep cunning wish, their turn win anyway. The other part that was sort of annoying was the existence of boseiju, which was irritating. I kept in Blood Moon, because of that even though they run a lot of basics, and it made the enlightened tutors and stuff bad draws. Post board my opponent also had young pyromancers which were pretty good at racing me.

I can see how you can win that matchup, but cunning wish as the "I can answer anything" card is something i hate as compared to sneak and show, where ensnaring bridge = all I have to do to win is stop removal of the bridge.

[8bit9mm]

Yeah i just had a couple instances where i would put canonist into play off show and tell when they put in omni and they just sort of shrugged, passed, my upkeep cunning wish, their turn win anyway.

See, the way that's supposed to go is:
Opp: Show and Tell?
You: Resolves
Opp: *puts in Omniscience*
You: *puts in Canonist*

Then, on their turn still, stand up out of your chair and literally throw a redblast their Omni, since they can do nothing about it.

Finally, unbutton/unzip your pants, sit back down, crack a beer and turn on Home Improvement while making Tim Allen grunts.

[Megadeus]

See, the way that's supposed to go is:
Opp: Show and Tell?
You: Resolves
Opp: *puts in Omniscience*
You: *puts in Canonist*

Then, on their turn still, stand up out of your chair and literally throw a redblast their Omni, since they can do nothing about it.

Finally, unbutton/unzip your pants, sit back down, crack a beer and turn on Home Improvement while making Tim Allen grunts.
Basically this. Except then the ape opponent just puts in emrakul and you poop yourself

[Kap'n Cook]

Basically this. Except then the ape opponent just puts in emrakul and you poop yourself


Pretty much. But what can you do, chimps gonna chimp. Wizards has decided for us that show and tell into griselape is fun and allowed, but top had to go because counterbalance had to be okay as well.

The sad thing is that with the current build our ability to fight them is better than it ever has been before, because Game 1 can be stolen through canonist+blast control, yet it is still a beyond horrible bad because of how dumb the deck is that there's really nothing you can do. Your best bet is to dodge it on the hope that your opponents personally chose not to play the deck.

My boarding plan isn't the greatest, but I feel in more games than not, even if many are lost anyways. Boseiju is a kick in the dick, it's high variance and you have to hope you can blast it and draw into another quickly. Ballista doesn't do anything postboard, it's only for those random game 1s where you need to win through a bridge and griselbrand stalemate because they don't run wishes/maindeck answers. Otherwise I'm going for canonist+blast+painter lockdown, and you can try to leverage surgical for hate and information. Crypt was good when we could pitch it for top draws, and right now im testing playing without it for comboing. With surgicals, playing more than 1 stone could be correct too. And then the other flip side is sometimes if you are tired or bored you can just play the crypt and all grindstones and get lucky and fast combo.

19 Land
5 Fast Mana

4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Painter's Servant
3 Goblin Welder
1 Containment Priest
1 Duergar Hedge-Mage
1 Goblin Cratermaker

3 Smuggler's Copter
1 Grindstone
1 Ensnaring Bridge

4 Pyroblast
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Surgical Extraction


Postboard
2 Blood Moon
2 Sulfur Elemental
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Grindstone
2 Karn, Scion of Urza
1 Walking Ballista
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Karn, Scion of Urza
1 Smuggler's Copter

[merfolkotpt]

The other question I have about the Omni matchup is how aggressively I should be using redblasts, I have been saving them for using on show and tell/omni, or if they get a boseiju trying to deal with that, but it feels weird to oherwise "let them set up" with cantrips like crazy. ANy thoughts?

[SDBobPlissken]

If Humility is in play, Painter entering won't result in the etb-effect happening so no color is chosen. Painter in play before Humility still has the effect though. This is my simple understanding.

Edit: so no, Painter doesn't seem great with Humility, but it's not a definitive nonbo.

This is how I am consistently told it works by judges and players now with the rules change, but earlier in the week in on MTGO I casted a painter with overwhelming splendor in play and I still got to choose a color. My opponent scooped also because I had the combo on board. MTGO not operating correctly isn’t surprising at all, but it’s just surprising for something that was a rules change nearly 2 years ago.

[menph]

The other question I have about the Omni matchup is how aggressively I should be using redblasts, I have been saving them for using on show and tell/omni, or if they get a boseiju trying to deal with that, but it feels weird to oherwise "let them set up" with cantrips like crazy. ANy thoughts?

let them set up while you do the same. i think the best aproach is to save the blasts for their key spells and not waste them for cantrips. try to play some painter, canonist and blood moon in order to be ready to control them pretty well.

[drude1]

This is how I am consistently told it works by judges and players now with the rules change, but earlier in the week in the week on MTGO I casted a painter with overwhelming splendor in play and I still got to choose a color. My opponent scooped also because I had the combo on board. Not that MTGO not operating correctly, it’s just surprising for something that was a rules change nearly 2 years ago.I actually AM playing a humility in my SB on MTGO right now for this very reason. It may be a little sleazy, but I don't give a fu@k.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[SDBobPlissken]

I actually AM playing a humility in my SB on MTGO right now for this very reason. It may be a little sleazy, but I don't give a fu@k.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Nice, probably not a bad sideboard option. Maybe this is WotC’s way of changing the rules back because they are always messing with Shortcake. Top, Moon, Magus and Painter under humility, etc.

[Fallen_Empire]

Ashen Rider is a lifestyle. There should be at least 2 copies in every legacy sb.

[GradStudent]

Thoughts on adding the new card : Light up the Stage ?

[SDBobPlissken]

Quote from WotC regarding the KCI banning, “As Modern stands, our metagame data does not indicate a need to impact the other Ancient Stirrings or Mox Opal decks.” (By banning Mox Opal/ ancient stirrings).

But it did feel a need to ban the other Sensei’s Divining Top decks in legacy. I hate to beat a dead horse and keep harping on this two years later but top should be unbanned and ban counterbalance.

[Mirrislegend]

Quote from WotC regarding the KCI banning, “As Modern stands, our metagame data does not indicate a need to impact the other Ancient Stirrings or Mox Opal decks.” (By banning Mox Opal/ ancient stirrings).

But it did feel a need to ban the other Sensei’s Divining Top decks in legacy. I hate to beat a dead horse and keep harping on this two years later but top should be unbanned and ban counterbalance.

My memory isn't great, but I thought SDT was banned for making matches take too long, not due to Counter-Top dominance.

That having been said, as I get more familiar with the deck I think SDT would be amazing here.

[SDBobPlissken]

My memory isn't great, but I thought SDT was banned for making matches take too long, not due to Counter-Top dominance.

That having been said, as I get more familiar with the deck I think SDT would be amazing here.

Yes, this is true. But from what I recall miracles was the only deck mentioned and they had no regard for the splash damage it would create for other decks. Also banning counterbalance would have helped with the timing issue. Topping once on your turn and once at the end of an opponent’s turn doesn’t take as much time as topping once on your turn, once on your opponents turn, and then for every spell that your opponent attempts to resolve. Throw in brainstorms, and fetch lands to dig and reshuffle and then top all over again in order to try and get the correct cmc with counterbalance. Counterbalance enabled you to stretch out time with top. If it was banned instead of top it wouldn’t have only mainly affected miracles and maybe high tide. Some lists were playing a playset in the sideboard.

[8bit9mm]

Yes, this is true. But from what I recall miracles was the only deck mentioned and they had no regard for the splash damage it would create for other decks. Also banning counterbalance would have helped with the timing issue. Topping once on your turn and once at the end of an opponent’s turn doesn’t take as much time as topping once on your turn, once on your opponents turn, and then for every spell that your opponent attempts to resolve. Throw in brainstorms, and fetch lands to dig and reshuffle and then top all over again in order to try and get the correct cmc with counterbalance. Counterbalance enabled you to stretch out time with top. If it was banned instead of top it wouldn’t have only mainly affected miracles and maybe high tide. Some lists were playing a playset in the sideboard.

Exactly this. Top wasn't really the actual offender for timing issues. Counterbalance is the only real reason to ever have to top more than once per turn (if you don't have short-term memory loss).

[Hisa]

Exactly this. Top wasn't really the actual offender for timing issues. Counterbalance is the only real reason to ever have to top more than once per turn (if you don't have short-term memory loss).

Top was banned both because of Miracle's dominance and because of timing issues. See here (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/april-24-2017-banned-and-restricted-announcement-2017-04-24).

It was the wrong ban (should have been terminus), but the format is more fun without CB / Top.

[SDBobPlissken]

Top was banned both because of Miracle's dominance and because of timing issues. See here (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/april-24-2017-banned-and-restricted-announcement-2017-04-24).

It was the wrong ban (should have been terminus), but the format is more fun without CB / Top.

I never really had a problem with terminus. Just leave a recruiter in hand and start the chain again. I hadn’t played other decks at that time, but wouldn’t you just not deploy all of your threats to play around terminus?

Banning counterbalance would have had the same effect on timing issues and miracles dominance. I agree that the format is a lot more fun without countertop.

Unban top, ban counterbalance!

[iight]

Hi all, I guess I'm a strawberry shortcake player. I played this game during ice ages, and a couple buddies and I started playing online a few years ago now. It all started when I started playing iona, and then found painter as a lock. I was actually playing a green variant that included natural order and some other rando cards. Eventually that led into playing a reanimation version that was also iona, but also had some toolbox creatures. the game has changed a lot.

anyway, I was searching around for synergies last year and stumbled on the imperial version and started tinkering around with it. I probably have a variant for every color at this point.

I found this group last night, and just wanted to say hi, I'm playing a slight different r/w version that includes chaotic backlash as a 2ndary wincon. your resources here have been fun as I tinker around with the recipe.

cheers!

[Kap'n Cook]

I never really had a problem with terminus. Just leave a recruiter in hand and start the chain again. I hadn’t played other decks at that time, but wouldn’t you just not deploy all of your threats to play around terminus?

Banning counterbalance would have had the same effect on timing issues and miracles dominance. I agree that the format is a lot more fun without countertop.

Unban top, ban counterbalance!


Certainly seems like it should have been simple enough right? The problem was never sandbagging a threat to rebuild, it was you only really ever got one small window to try to win against them, while they could punt their ass off and still blind flip fuck you. You can recover from one terminus, maybe the second, but definitely not the third, and this isn't even counting Snap+Swords, Jace, or a resolved counterbalance on any turn. That probably goes for every legacy deck facing OG miracles. Don't forget the old standby of masturbating with a mentor either.


The most fucked thing about Miracles was that since Counterbalance effectively locked the entire format out of resolving spells, chaining 3 mana 1/1's over 8 turns was more broken than Show and Tell into Griselbrand

[Mirrislegend]

Don't forget the old standby of masturbating with a mentor either.
This is where I learned the power of Sulfur Elemental in the sideboard. I originally thought it was just for Death and Taxes. Boy was I wrong. The fact that we can't tutor for it makes me ITCH to play a 3rd copy, especially against Miracles.

[drude1]

Oh how I miss top. The true weakness of this deck is that we can't keep up with all the card advantage/fixing that other decks have. Copter isn't terrible but it's obviously nowhere near as powerful as top was. I'm really having troubles with miracles again lately just because I am getting buried by all of their card draw. Is playing a couple Karn main viable? Would that even tip the scales enough? Can't they just print some top-like card that just isn't quite as broken? Jesus, is it that hard?!?

P.s. chaotic backlash is kinda hilarious. Just a little spendy.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[8bit9mm]

Oh how I miss top. The true weakness of this deck is that we can't keep up with all the card advantage/fixing that other decks have. Copter isn't terrible but it's obviously nowhere near as powerful as top was. I'm really having troubles with miracles again lately just because I am getting buried by all of their card draw. Is playing a couple Karn main viable? Would that even tip the scales enough? Can't they just print some top-like card that just isn't quite as broken? Jesus, is it that hard?!?

P.s. chaotic backlash is kinda hilarious. Just a little spendy.

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I mean, we used to play with 2 Chandra in the main (at least I did).
I don't see why we couldn't tweak the build to include 1-2 MD Karn.

[finksfinksfinks]

Went 3-1 good for 1st place at the LGS tonight running 3 moons and 1 cannonist. Beat UB and RB reanimator, UB death's shadow and lost to charbelcher. Weirdly enough I won despite blood moon being bad in most of those matchups and never blasting a naturally blue spell. Copter was incredible, chumping an Iona over and over thanks to welder while I got combo online. Also managed to race an Iona naming blue after I landed painter naming blue. Player 1 of Karn and wished I had a second. Karn+copter was a fast enough clock to close out games before my opponents recovered from stumbles.
The deck was a load of fun, and even when I though I was stone cold dead the deck still had legs. Favorite moment was ripping painter off the top at 4 life vs death shadow and immediately firing off 3 blasts to clean up angler double shadow and stroll away with the game

[Michael Keller]

Gonna be rockin' out Painter at SCG Syracuse this weekend.

[Mirrislegend]

Gonna be rockin' out Painter at SCG Syracuse this weekend.

I want to go and do the same, but I simply don't have enough reps. Live Legacy is very hard to come by, locally :( What's your list?

[Michael Keller]

It's probably going to be similar to a stock Shortcake list, with a few modifications I haven't solidified yet. I'm also experimenting with a shade of blue for some added sideboard utility.

[Mirrislegend]

It's probably going to be similar to a stock Shortcake list, with a few modifications I haven't solidified yet. I'm also experimenting with a shade of blue for some added sideboard utility.

Trinket Mage? Cuz I'd love a way to get EE while under Chalice.

[8bit9mm]

Trinket Mage? Cuz I'd love a way to get EE while under Chalice.

I've been playing UR with Trinket Mage for the last few months now, with some Shortcake sprinkled throughout.
Trinket Mage tends to over-perform and has gotten me out of some tricky spots.

[Michael Keller]

Mine is really more Shortcake - with only a very minimal amount of blue. Some of the cards I was looking at were:

Trinket Mage
Flusterstorm
Hydroblast
Blue Elemental Blast
Izzet Staticaster
Man-o'-War


Stuff like that. I'm also aware this is outside of the realm of Shortcake talk, so I'll play nice here.

[Mirrislegend]

I've been playing UR with Trinket Mage for the last few months now, with some Shortcake sprinkled throughout.
Trinket Mage tends to over-perform and has gotten me out of some tricky spots.

It's nice to hear my analysis validated. However, I'm not sure it's worth losing Blood Moon's "oops I win" power. On the other hand, everyone seems to be playing Painter with 3 colors, so maybe Blood Moon is overrated.

[Michael Keller]

It's nice to hear my analysis validated. However, I'm not sure it's worth losing Blood Moon's "oops I win" power. On the other hand, everyone seems to be playing Painter with 3 colors, so maybe Blood Moon is overrated.

It's really not. It's the best card in the deck, actually. There's this misconception that Blood Moon loses stock; it'll never lose stock - it wins games by itself. It only may seem like it's lost value because there's one in the deck, but that's due to Enlightened Tutor. The card just shuts down so many decks and forces opponents to play around it (which is another advantage of running one with Tutor).

[Mirrislegend]

It's really not. It's the best card in the deck, actually. There's this misconception that Blood Moon loses stock; it'll never lose stock - it wins games by itself. It only may seem like it's lost value because there's one in the deck, but that's due to Enlightened Tutor. The card just shuts down so many decks and forces opponents to play around it (which is another advantage of running one with Tutor).

I'm working under the assumption that running 3 colors necessitates losing the Blood Moon plan. I could definitely be wrong. I need people to weigh in.

If I'm correct, that means people are picking the strength of 3 colors over the strength of Blood Moon. I suppose the correct answer will vary based on Blood Moon's strength according to local meta.

[CptHaddock]

The classic splashing blue for cards that aren't brainstorm.

[Michael Keller]

I'm working under the assumption that running 3 colors necessitates losing the Blood Moon plan. I could definitely be wrong. I need people to weigh in.

You would keep at least one in; it's too intrinsically powerful. The deck still runs 3-4 Lotus Petals, so you can still cast things off them if need be.


If I'm correct, that means people are picking the strength of 3 colors over the strength of Blood Moon. I suppose the correct answer will vary based on Blood Moon's strength according to local meta.

Even with two colors, folks are going to one Blood Moon. A third color just to open up a few options out of the board isn't going to break the deck, and you should still run one Moon in the main - but it will cautiously drift it away from a R/w "Shortcake" definition.

[8bit9mm]

The classic splashing blue for cards that aren't brainstorm.

I am not that brave. If I'm playing blue, Brainstorm and Ponder are mandatory attendees to the party.

Edit: but, still rocking Moons in the SB. If you're playing 2 colors in Legacy and one of them is red, You might as well chuck some moons in there.

[Kap'n Cook]

It's probably going to be similar to a stock Shortcake list, with a few modifications I haven't solidified yet. I'm also experimenting with a shade of blue for some added sideboard utility.

http://www.starcitygames.com/decks/127390

Nice run man, with some interesting new cards. Can we get a report? I'd love to hear your thoughts on the deck and the meta right now

[joaquin]

Yeah man good job on the run! Ugh I wanna build painter so bad but I can't afford the city of traitors. I wonder if I could just run crystal vein temporarily and hate my life...

[Michael Keller]

http://www.starcitygames.com/decks/127390

Nice run man, with some interesting new cards. Can we get a report? I'd love to hear your thoughts on the deck and the meta right now

Thanks guys - always a pleasure Painting it up. I'll try and get a report up, things are just really busy with work and the family. I was in a strong position to make Top 8, then I just hit a stroke of bad luck in successive rounds that was tough.

I'll update you guys ASAP.

[Mirrislegend]

I'll update you guys ASAP.

OMG I can't wait. Your list is full of so much spice; I love it!

[drude1]

Light up the stage is for reals. I'm honestly surprised people haven't been talking more about this card (including myself). I'm really curious what you thought about that card in particular.
I totally agree with the general sentiment... Nice spice!

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[Michael Keller]

So after 15 rounds of Magic with Imperial Painter at #SCGNY, I wound up in 52nd place - good for Top 64 (out of 656). I can't remember all of my match-ups and their results, but I'll provide some notes based on the list I played and changes I would recommend going forward.

For reference, here is the list I piloted:

//Main
2 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Painter's Servant
1 Spellskite
3 Goblin Welder
1 Grim Lavamancer
4 Imperial Recruiter
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Manic Vandal

1 Great Furnace
4 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Arid Mesa
3 City of Traitors
2 Plateau
1 Wooded Foothills

2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Grindstone
4 Lotus Petal
2 Smuggler's Copter

1 Blood Moon

2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast

3 Light Up the Stage

//Sideboard
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Zuran Orb
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Containment Priest
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Blood Moon
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Lava Dart
3 Fiery Confluence

Here were the key takeaways from the event:

Light up the Stage is the Real Deal
Over the course of the entire event, I found myself really always wanting to draw into this card. It's straight-up card advantage, and with so many small creatures that can easily connect for a point here and a point there - combined with reactive fetches and Forces - casting it for its Spectacle cost was rarely an issue. I think there were only two or three times throughout the entire event I hard-cast it empty handed, but when I did cast it no matter what, it was incredible. I do think three is probably right, but I can even see four going forward.

Magus of the Moon Returning to the Main
One of the biggest things I anticipated for this event was hitting a load of Chalice decks like Eldrazi or Dark Depths combo decks like Turbo or Slow Depths. Blood Moon in Shortcake has been an option that has dwindled in value in recent months, but I think this needs to be reconsidered. I was always hoping to slam an early Blood Moon in a majority of my match-ups, and Magus actually was instrumental just like its Enchantment counterpart in winning a few rounds against Eldrazi and U/W Delver-Blade. Magus was also added to bolster combat damage to support Stage, and I think his stock has risen slightly because of this.

Lava Dart...!?
Most of the other sideboard cards are fairly straight-forward. This was a card I was looking hard at for a long time, and read some very interesting feedback on folks deep in other forums, articles and other resources to get their opinions on it. As it turns out after testing it, I was very surprised how good it wound up being. Most fast aggro decks looking to get ahead early had a hard time dealing with the card, because it just iced their hot start. I was able to off multiple T1 Delvers, and made it so that they became even worse in the mid to late game because of its flashback ability. But the real power of the card shone with Light up the Stage. I was able to throw a Mountain into the graveyard later in the game to cash in on the Spectacle cost and win a few games because of that. One great moment was an opponent on Depths casting Crop Rotation with two Hexmage out. I cast Dart in response killing one, and then flashed it back killing the other - a real blowout. It also really helped not needing to waste a Blast on a Delver early and save it for stack interaction or paired with Painter, in addition to being incidentally good when you're grinding yourself with Welder in play looking for another combo piece or that last bit of damage. It's also beyond incredible against Infect, where you just keep getting key value off of its flashback ability. Will I play it going forward? I'm not entirely sure, but so far I'm very impressed by it. It kind of/sort of filled a similar role that cards like Firebolt did in Painter sideboards - except I think this is just better right now.

Dealing with Turbo Depths
This is a very important issue with Painter going forward. I understand Shortcake cuts back on the Moon effects and emphasizes the use of Enlightened Tutor, but this is something to reevaluate. I'm aware of the rule change with Moon and Depths, but the truth is it screws with their mana base early enough where you can hold them off to find other utility or the win. Enlightened Tutor for all its power is a liability post-board where Surgical Extraction is a real threat. I just think to beat Depths and stomp it out, I can see options in the main and sideboard including cards like Pithing Needle, singleton Ghost Quarter (which finds you Plains if you run it before casting a Moon effect), singleton Karakas, Surgical Extraction and at least three Welders to protect Ensnaring Bridge in the wake of Decay/Trophy effects.

Speaking of protection...

Hanna's Custody
This is a card I've looked really hard in recent weeks, and was so close to running it at SCGNY. Boy, I wish I had. This card - while innocuous - is arguably one of the best cards I can see Painter using in the future. Once this card lands against control decks, it becomes incredibly difficult for them to interact with you, and shuts off so many draws they rely on to stop Painter from winning unimpeded. I know for a fact had I had this card deeper into Day 2 - I would have easily rode to the Top 8. It's a must-counter, otherwise you just do whatever you want. I do think that Custody - in conjunction with fast, early hate like Needle and Moon effects - shut the door on Depths for a long time, in addition shutting down interaction from other decks that would try to shut down the combo during the game. Goblin Welder (and to a lesser extent Spellskite) fills the role of this at times, but casting one card that immediately and always blanks answers to your cards and offers optimal protection is something to seriously consider - especially against control decks packing loads of removal. I just wish I had this in those match-ups where the wins were on the table.

Zuran Orb
Zuran Orb never really saw play much throughout the event, and will almost certainly be replaced with something that offers better protection and is more difficult to deal with. I've entertained cards like Circle of Protection: Red to help with the Burn match-up, notably because it's an enchantment that can't be Smashed (to Smithereens). Burn players can surely play around the card, and there might be better options for that match-up. Blessed Alliance may be something to look at, as it also helps in the Depths MU.

Crew up the Copter
I wasn't a big fan of Smuggler's Copter at all during the event. It felt like it was cool to crew it up and use it when I could and grab some filter, but there were times where it just sat there and did nothing - which was awful. The card filter can probably be mitigated by the superiority of Light of the Stage - but I'm not sure. They can certainly coexist in the deck, the issue is that I really didn't like just having it play sitting there which happened a few times during the event.

Fiery Confluence
This card was good throughout the event and played a nice sideboard control element when it popped up. It made the deck feel a little more like Mono Red Stompy, which uses this to full effect. The ability to cancel out troublesome artifacts like Needle and Chalice, while offering pretty good board wipe utility was really comforting. There were a couple of times it was a blowout, but I just don't know if its better than other instant-speed answers. I chose Vandal in the main over Heretic because you don't have to wait a turn to activate it, and it at least reactivates cards in your hand. I'm still trying to figure out if Vandal is optimal main and if these are optimal in the board. They also enable Stage's Spectacle cost, at a minimum.

Revoker vs. Needle
After fifteen rounds of Magic and playing against Storm and Depths multiple times, I think the Canonists main (and perhaps one in the board) with two Needles are probably better than the Revokers. The problem with Revoker is that it doesn't hit Stage like Needle would and is a bit more fragile. I think its ability to hit LED is nice, but I mean, if we're running multiple Canonists between the main and side, is that really necessary? Needle would have been so good - I wish I had it in the deck this past weekend.

Grim Lavamancer
This was great in the main, and I will probably run another out of the board for utility. Being able to connect early is great with Stage and puts Delver and fast aggro on the backpedal in a hurry, which I like. It also hunts down Safekeeper in the Depths MU and ices Bobs along with it. This card, along with Lava Dart and Goblin Welder, make it so that the perfunctory Grindstone activation for value can be used on yourself to enable these shenanigans, but one must also be leery of Surgical Extraction. Regardless, he was - as usual - great in most scenarios.

I think I need to sleep on a new deck list until I saturate the changes after the long drive home. No matter what, I had a great time playing and the deck felt pretty good overall.

[Fallen_Empire]

Thank you for this write up! Lots to think about. You've inspired me to get back on the painter horse. Questions about the list:

Are the 2x macabre's & crypt enough graveyard hate? Do you think it makes sense to swap the Spellskite for Hanna's Custody?

[schweinefettmann]

Thank you for this write up! Lots to think about. You've inspired me to get back on the painter horse. Questions about the list:

Are the 2x macabre's & crypt enough graveyard hate? Do you think it makes sense to swap the Spellskite for Hanna's Custody?


Thank you for this write up! Lots to think about. You've inspired me to get back on the painter horse. Questions about the list:

Are the 2x macabre's & crypt enough graveyard hate? Do you think it makes sense to swap the Spellskite for Hanna's Custody?

My assumption is that you'd need to do some tricksy-footwork:
shuffle trigger on the stack, weld in another grindstone, grind to the next emrakul, then macabre the two, let the shuffle trigger resolve.
then go off again.. possibly (this is the solidarity player in me coming out, i think).
or maybe recruiter into containment priest against sneak and snow, show and tell.

I wouldn't swap out spellskite for hanna's custody. the target magnet seems good, and is recruitable. And speaking of which, hannas custody gives all artefacts shroud (basically). shuts off our welders too. Might be worth running a one-of daretti scrap savant as a non-targeting welder. Or it might be worth looking at leonin abunas. it costs 3w (one more), and doesn't shut off welders. it's also 2/4, so its recruitable and bolt-proof.

[colo]

My assumption is that you'd need to do some tricksy-footwork:
shuffle trigger on the stack, weld in another grindstone, grind to the next emrakul, then macabre the two, let the shuffle trigger resolve.
then go off again.. possibly (this is the solidarity player in me coming out, i think).
or maybe recruiter into containment priest against sneak and snow, show and tell.

I wouldn't swap out spellskite for hanna's custody. the target magnet seems good, and is recruitable. And speaking of which, hannas custody gives all artefacts shroud (basically). shuts off our welders too. Might be worth running a one-of daretti scrap savant as a non-targeting welder. Or it might be worth looking at leonin abunas. it costs 3w (one more), and doesn't shut off welders. it's also 2/4, so its recruitable and bolt-proof.

Leonin Abunas is 2/5 even, and it interacts much more favourably with Goblin Welder than Hanna's Custody. It's rather hard to tell which one to try, but I do feel intrigued by both options!

[Mirrislegend]

@Michael Keller:

Can you comment on choosing Manic Vandal over Goblin Cratermaker? Because I count got many items in favor of Cratermaker and only 1 in favor of Vandal.

Did you miss Engineered Explosives?

[Michael Keller]

@Michael Keller: Can you comment on choosing Manic Vandal over Goblin Cratermaker? Because I count got many items in favor of Cratermaker and only 1 in favor of Vandal.

I don't like Cratermaker because it has anti-synergy with Painter in play. Chalice becomes a colored permanent, and cannot be targeted.


Did you miss Engineered Explosives?

Not a whole lot. I actually think Ratchet Bomb is probably better because you can get it above two counters (because you're only playing three colors - if you don't count Lotus Petal which is a stretch), and the initial investment to hit a Chalice is the same: two mana. It may also be better in theory because a Chalice on zero (for whatever reason) could potentially lock you out from hitting it with an EE.

[Michael Keller]

My assumption is that you'd need to do some tricksy-footwork:
shuffle trigger on the stack, weld in another grindstone, grind to the next emrakul, then macabre the two, let the shuffle trigger resolve.
then go off again.. possibly (this is the solidarity player in me coming out, i think).
or maybe recruiter into containment priest against sneak and snow, show and tell.

I wouldn't swap out spellskite for hanna's custody. the target magnet seems good, and is recruitable. And speaking of which, hannas custody gives all artefacts shroud (basically). shuts off our welders too. Might be worth running a one-of daretti scrap savant as a non-targeting welder. Or it might be worth looking at leonin abunas. it costs 3w (one more), and doesn't shut off welders. it's also 2/4, so its recruitable and bolt-proof.

Hannah's Custody is tutorable, too; you're playing Enlightened Tutor. Shutting off Welder is the least of your worries at the expense of never having to worry about cards like Terminus taking over the game, and once a Painter resolves all your worries go away. With no additional investment (i.e. loss of life from Spellskite, activating Welder after waiting a turn, etc.), it just shuts off cards that give Painter trouble. It's absolutely not win-more; there are good and bad match-ups for the deck and the purpose of the card is to shore up those MUs without needing to worry about crap like Swords to Plowshares, Lightning Bolt, Kolaghan's Command, Abrupt Decay and Assassin's Trophy.

Keep in mind you'd still play Welder if you have Custody in play - it forces an opponent to deal with one first and then the other, and the damage is relevant to enable Light up the Stage. There's also a very good chance you won't have Welder and Custody in play at the same time, because Welder does - in most instances - die to removal before it goes active or takes over a game. Custody is much, much harder to deal with.

[Mirrislegend]

@ Michael Keller:

What's the plan against Miracles and Grixis Control? LutS, Blood Moon, Revoker/Pithing Needle all help to varying degrees but none are slam dunks (well, a Blood Moon effect against Grixis will steal a single game but rarely a second game). Without having Planeswalkers in your 75 to provide card advantage (and an alternate wincon), how do you beat control decks?

[Michael Keller]

@ Michael Keller:

What's the plan against Miracles...

Miracles is what it is and what it always has been, but this is where I think playing Hanna's Custody is good. Terminus and Swords-Snap-Swords is annoying. Painter plays a myriad of Blasts, sure, the idea is to shut down that removal and force the opponent to use Terminus as the only answer to a resolved Painter - or - destroy Custody and then worry about Painter and friends. Miracles has always been kind of a stagnant match-up, because you can play the control role in a bunch of different ways - right down to naturally Grinding an opponent out for the win.


and Grixis Control? LutS, Blood Moon, Revoker/Pithing Needle all help to varying degrees but none are slam dunks (well, a Blood Moon effect against Grixis will steal a single game but rarely a second game). Without having Planeswalkers in your 75 to provide card advantage (and an alternate wincon), how do you beat control decks?

I think the match-up is intrinsically difficult no matter what (G.C.). But if you run a card that - for lack of a better term - stops their shit from breaking yours, then you'll be fine. All of these decks rely on Snapcaster for repeated value. If you shut down their main avenue of attack by nullifying hate with Welder or Custody, I think you'll be fine.

I played against Grixis Control in Round 12 of the Open. My opponent and I got into a top-deck war, and he wound up getting there. I just know that, at some point had I resolved something he couldn't deal with like H.C., he would have almost certainly lost. Grixis Control only really has a handful of counterspells - balanced with removal and discard. If you nullify the removal, it makes it so that it becomes extremely difficult for the G.C. player to interact with you.

That being said, here is something similar that I would test going forward:

//Main
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter's Servant
3 Goblin Welder
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Manic Vandal

4 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Arid Mesa
3 City of Traitors
2 Plateau
1 Plains
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Great Furnace

4 Grindstone
4 Lotus Petal
2 Ensnaring Bridge

1 Blood Moon
1 Hanna's Custody

4 Pyroblast
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Red Elemental Blast

3 Light Up the Stage

//Sideboard
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Lava Dart
2 Fiery Confluence
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Containment Priest
1 Blood Moon
1 Hanna's Custody

[sroncor1]

Hollywood- Congrats. I know I hardly play anymore, but doesn't Terminus still nuke the board with Custody out, as it doesn't target?

Seth

[Michael Keller]

Hey Seth,

Thanks...I was just using in the context of protection. When an opponent casts Terminus, the card that you would typically use to protect Painter with would be Welder - but that would go away, too. If Custody resolves and sticks, you don't have to worry about needing a second card in play to protect it.

I suppose it's kind of a bad analogy because Terminus isn't spot-removal - but mass-removal - but the intent of the comment was to iterate that Hanna's Custody doesn't leave play with Painter and when it sticks it basically blanks all spot removal in an opponent's deck and stays in play in the wake of Terminus.

[Mirrislegend]

@ sroncor1:
That's why we play 6x Blast in the main and more in the sideboard. Instead of wasting them all trying to handle StP, Custody allows us to reserve them for the big plays like Terminus.

@ Michael Keller:
Whoa, no Smuggler's Copters at all!? I'm surprised to see you remove all copies of our only flyer when you're trying to turn on LutS.
Without Copter's filtering, wouldn't a 4th LutS be worth testing ASAP?
Regarding the Revoker in the maindeck: is this just standard utility (Jaces, Lilianas, Jittes, Vials, etc) or do you have specific cards in mind?

[Michael Keller]

@ sroncor1:
That's why we play 6x Blast in the main and more in the sideboard. Instead of wasting them all trying to handle StP, Custody allows us to reserve them for the big plays like Terminus.

@ Michael Keller:
Whoa, no Smuggler's Copters at all!? I'm surprised to see you remove all copies of our only flyer when you're trying to turn on LutS.
Without Copter's filtering, wouldn't a 4th LutS be worth testing ASAP?

I'm still trying to figure it out. Copter just didn't impress me at all, regardless of its flying ability. Like I said - most of the time it sat there idle and did nothing. Sometimes it was good and useful, but it just seems underwhelming from my experiences.

[Bash]

It may also be better in theory because a Chalice on zero (for whatever reason) could potentially lock you out from hitting it with an EE.

You can still play EE @ 0 with CoTv @ 0 on the board by paying 2 colorless (for example) with Ancient tomb when casting EE

[schweinefettmann]

What is it about the smuggler's copter that doesn't impress? it gives you a guy that flies, does minimal damage and draws cards. and it usually only gets removed on the turn it becomes a creature. Isn't that kinda ok at least? Maybe compared to LutS it doesn't do enough.

with all the talk about the copter being bad, i thought about thopter foundry and sword of the meek. If we're worried about fliers, the combo basically gives us enough blockers to stone most attackers, and given a couple of turns, you'd probably be able to get yourself a small squadron of fliers. And its somewhat terminus and swords to plowshares-'proof'.
I suspect it's too colour intensive to get into play though. mine is built on 2 mox diamond and 4 lotus petal (i don't have the budget for 3 city if traitors). My brief testing (3 foundry/2 sword) has been tricky to get into play, but when i land a foundry, it gives us a pretty good clock/resiliency against a lot of problems (namely, that the opponent is still alive).

I had one question about opposing abrupt decays. we're just going to have to live with it, right?

Last question/suggestion: thoughts on Duergar Hedge-Mage? it's like manic vandal, isn't a human, but it has the potential to also nab an opposing sylvan library, leyline of sanctity, or whatevers as a minor bonus. Not sure if its restriction of 2 or more mountains makes it unplayable or not.

[colo]

Smuggler's Copter doesn't make the cut for me because it depends on another creature to do _anything_. And that's for a 2-mana artifact that itself eats creature removal if it's doing work, costs 3 under Thalia, and doesn't even actively support your usual primary win condition.

I've been using Thopter/Sword in a Transmute Artifact-heavy Grixis list to some success. It's evolved into my preferred wincon in a number of matchups (UR Delver, Show and Tell). I think it's a very potent solution to a number of the archetype's inherent problems.

You solve Abrupt Decay by means of Misdirection, Divert, or (in Shortcake, probably preferably) Apostle's Blessing.

Duergar Hedge-Mage is a strong card, but I'd be wary of its conditional nature. Its flexibility might trump that, but if your opponent can potentially use their spare Wasteland to deny you your artifact removal trigger, that's just gotta get to hurt you at times, I'm afraid.

[Michael Keller]

I'm just providing insight as to my experiences. I'd say the sample size was small only because it was one event, but fifteen rounds was pretty indicative of what the format - for me at least - is comprised of and what kind of cards caused problems both internally and externally for the deck from an architectural and interactive dynamic. Smuggler's Copter is a good card, but I don't like and didn't like the way it did nothing many times and became another dead draw when I needed something better or more useful. That negative became a liability in a majority of cases for me, which is why I don't like it going forward. The card filter for me isn't as good as Light up the Stage with other options. (But as I said, playing both is still perfectly viable.)

One thing I'm reconsidering in the main is Viashino Heretic - if only because the damage it can do from its activated ability enables Stage (potentially). The three toughness can become relevant like its Painter counterpart to stop Snapcasters and Dark Confidants from attacking - I'm just pondering if the wait-a-turn thing is more important than the ability of the card in general.

I think many cards that are incidentally good against Depths (and good against it in general) are key going forward. I think it will represent a healthy portion of the meta - larger events especially - because it isn't expensive to build and is very competitive. Blood Moon in that regard becomes scary to play against it as I mentioned because of the rule change a while back.

Miracles is Miracles like I said; you just have to grind that match-up out early and stockpile Blasts for Jaces and Snapcasters (or Swords early enough if you have Painter). And there are just times where naturally Grindstoning an opponent can win you games, if for nothing else it messes up their Counterbalance triggers or Portent-based Terminus.

[Mirrislegend]

I feel like I'm the only one who has drawn dead 5 turns in a row and spent the whole time pining for a Smuggler's Copter.
Based on Michael Kellerman's results I went to 2 Ethersworn, 3 Copter, and 2 LutS and I like it. I'm open to 2 Copter, 3 LutS, but repeat filtering plus non-negligible clock (with evasion) has high appeal for me.


I think many cards that are incidentally good against Depths (and good against it in general) are key going forward. I think it will represent a healthy portion of the meta - larger events especially - because it isn't expensive to build and is very competitive. Blood Moon in that regard becomes scary to play against it as I mentioned because of the rule change a while back.
What's the rules change with Blood Moon and Depths?

[Darklingske]

Smuggler's Copter is a good card, but I don't like and didn't like the way it did nothing many times and became another dead draw when I needed something better or more useful. That negative became a liability in a majority of cases for me, which is why I don't like it going forward. The card filter for me isn't as good as Light up the Stage with other options. (But as I said, playing both is still perfectly viable.)
Exactly my feeling on the card. When you have Copter and beasties, all is great, but when there are no beasties around, Copter really makes me very sad.


One thing I'm reconsidering in the main is Viashino Heretic - if only because the damage it can do from its activated ability enables Stage (potentially). The three toughness can become relevant like its Painter counterpart to stop Snapcasters and Dark Confidants from attacking - I'm just pondering if the wait-a-turn thing is more important than the ability of the card in general.
I really love heretic! Been playing him for a long time and I love having him over Vandal or Hedge-Mage.


I think many cards that are incidentally good against Depths (and good against it in general) are key going forward. I think it will represent a healthy portion of the meta - larger events especially - because it isn't expensive to build and is very competitive. Blood Moon in that regard becomes scary to play against it as I mentioned because of the rule change a while back.
I was thinking on switching to Blood Sun just for Depths (as it is a large portion of the current meta) but I'm doubting wether it should be in the board (as backup for moon) or just plain replace Moon in the main. Both have their uses in very different cases. Hard decisions to take!

[Michael Keller]

Keep in mind that Jack has also had a lot of success with Copter, so this may be more opinionated at this point. It just didn't work well for me during the course of the event, with effectively the same number of creatures.

[schweinefettmann]

Exactly my feeling on the card. When you have Copter and beasties, all is great, but when there are no beasties around, Copter really makes me very sad.


I really love heretic! Been playing him for a long time and I love having him over Vandal or Hedge-Mage.


I was thinking on switching to Blood Sun just for Depths (as it is a large portion of the current meta) but I'm doubting wether it should be in the board (as backup for moon) or just plain replace Moon in the main. Both have their uses in very different cases. Hard decisions to take!

Doesbt blood sun also remove cones into play triggers (ie comes into play with 10 ice counters on dark depths)?


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[Darklingske]

Doesbt blood sun also remove cones into play triggers (ie comes into play with 10 ice counters on dark depths)?

Correct, I missed that part!! So Sun is maybe not the best replacement, but then again, what is?

[Mirrislegend]

Pithing Needle has been suggested. It should probably do the job of shutting off Stage, given Hanna's Custody and the usual Painter's Servant + Blasts.

[sroncor1]

@ Mirrislegend- HAHA. I know why we run blast, I did write the primer and all...

I just wanted to make it clear that the card doesn't directly address Terminus, but the STP, Snapcaster, STP sequence, which is very valuable. I will say that year ago the card never really panned out but it is likely the meta has changed in a manner to make it favorable.

The idea of a different draw engine than Copter is intriguing to say the least. Copter does a lot, but I think it is sort of a 4, 1, or 0 play. You either always want it as a focal point of the way you play and sequence the deck or its a tutorable option for the right situation(although I will be honest that I am not sure what that situation is).

I will always be fan of a streamlined and consistent deck, and so my preference will always be for more 4 of in the deck.

That being said I am speaking totally hypothetically as I have played the deck probably 4 times in the last 6 months, and probably less than ten events since we did the reworking of the deck back in the spring last year. I have found myself focusing more on Old School these days, but I still lurk with my pet deck.

Hollywood- I really like the ideas you are testing. I do think Walking Ballista should always be in the deck as it is just so strong in so many match ups. But other than that I have little to add. While Cratermaker seems fantastic, I will be honest, I have yet to pick any up, so I have never tested it.

I have spoken with and thought of testing with Jack some if work lets up. In the mean time keep painting. And free Ned Leeds...

Seth

[Mirrislegend]

I will say that year ago the card never really panned out but it is likely the meta has changed in a manner to make it favorable.

Which card never panned out? Hanna's Custody? You've already tested it?

[sroncor1]

Yes Hanna's Custody was tested years ago, I mean the card is nearly 2 decades at this point. It may be better suited in the current meta, but for me the card was never impactful enough when cast. I can see it as a sideboard option to fight the STP, Snap, STP engine or the Kolghan's Command sequencing. But for 3 mana you really need a lot, and I am not sure losing Welder and an inability to interact with your opponents hate artifacts is worth it. I will admit testing should be done, but in the past the card didn't do enough and it isn't like the format as slowed down or reduced consistency amongst decks since then.

You might be able to read about some of that testing in the older threads. I think the front page has links to the older threads that are archived.

Seth

[Mirrislegend]

Yes Hanna's Custody was tested years ago, I mean the card is nearly 2 decades at this point. It may be better suited in the current meta, but for me the card was never impactful enough when cast. I can see it as a sideboard option to fight the STP, Snap, STP engine or the Kolghan's Command sequencing. But for 3 mana you really need a lot, and I am not sure losing Welder and an inability to interact with your opponents hate artifacts is worth it. I will admit testing should be done, but in the past the card didn't do enough and it isn't like the format as slowed down or reduced consistency amongst decks since then.

You might be able to read about some of that testing in the older threads. I think the front page has links to the older threads that are archived.

Seth

Well, seeing as I most want it for StP, Snap, StP and KCommand, Snap, KCommand, I think its definitely primo sideboard material for the hard control matchups. Miracles occasionally has a Engineered Explosives in the SB. Grixis Control has more relevant stuff; usually 1 Pithing Needle and 1 Nihil Spellbomb. I'm guessing its worth the risk, but I won't know until I try. That'll be the first time I want Engineered Explosives vs Grixis Control.

[Michael Keller]

Thanks, Seth.

I think Custody as a singleton (or pair with an additional option out of the sideboard) is a bit more viable at this point in time. I do not, however, assume it is optimal - what I suggest is that based on my experiences, I noticed there were so many times where opponents would have succumbed to the combination of Painter's Servant and Grindstone with this in play. I tried it out a few weeks before the event and I liked what I saw.

The Welder interaction can be awkward, but it also depends on the scenario and when you're bringing it in. Assuming you play H.C. and it sticks, your combo is - for all intents and purposes - fail-safe, in addition to ensuring that Blasts are never dead in hand when a Painter resolves naming "blue." For as good as Welder always can be, there are times and match-ups where the investment of a single option like H.C. completely nullifies opposition as opposed to Welder - which dies much easier.

Death and Taxes is another example, where it would blank Swords to Plowshares, enable Blasts, stop Flickerwisp on an artifact of yours, protects Bridge and protects the combo. Dealing with Welder is much easier because it has an activated ability and can be killed by most removal. H.C. is extremely difficult to deal with, and I just think as a game gets drawn out it shores up a lot of situations where an opponent might be comfortably sitting on removal or answers.

This card shuts that all down completely and opens the door for a clean win upon resolution of the combo. Few other cards in Legacy fit that bill in a deck like Painter - the only other two being Spellskite and Welder (both good cards, but not so good later in the game where H.C. off the top is much, much better).

[jasper]

Great run and nice report, Michael! Unlucky to miss out on Top 8 in the last couple of rounds, but definitely confirms that the deck has legs in the hands of a seasoned painter.

Interesting to see new options being considered like Light Up the Stage. I have to say, not having played with it, the card does not seem good, particularly when in order to fit it in, one of the prime ways the deck has of getting in for damage (copter) is being cut to accommodate it (but more on our favourite chopper in a bit). The failcase is a worse divination, which is not a card I think any deck in legacy has any business playing to begin with. It's a tempo-negative play that doesn't dig particularly deep—it's less likely to find a combo piece than even just a cantrip, so I think if that's the play pattern we're looking for there are better options. Even if we're reliably triggering spectacle, that doesn't change the fact that it only lets you see two extra cards, and doesn't even play nicely with Welder or provide cards in hand to loot away.

Of course, take this with a pinch of salt as I haven't tested the card, but I'm curious as to what the main motivation is for looking at it as an option. These builds of Painter have always been more-or-less pedal-to-the-metal decks, about flinging your hand out there with some lock/disruptive elements (canonist/moon) and hoping for the best in terms of that being enough to hamper your opponent long enough to combo, with a secondary grindy/dorks plan facilitated by onboard CA engines like Recruiter.

When you don't have ways to catch up onboard, playing a relatively expensive spell for card advantage (that doesn't stick around, meaning that it plays poorly with reactive spells like blast) seems suboptimal to me. Decks that can afford to play straight-up card advantage spells, like Accumulated Knowledge out of Miracles, have things that restore parity (terminus) or answer spells without needing to access mana (force) or utilise the flexibility of instants to be able to leave up answers and then cast AK if the answer isn't necessary at that time (counterspell, snapcaster).

Notice that a deck like Grixis Control, which also plays a bunch of 2-for-1s, has to play ones that affect the board directly, like Baleful Strix and Kolaghan's Command. This is because playing those cards (answers that generate CA) allow you to take the time to outgrind your opponent and prevent you from falling behind incrementally to the point where simply having access to more resources means you win the game.

How this applies to Shortcake is that Smuggler's Copter lets you advance your secondary gameplan (killing your opponent with random dorks) while also providing card selection. Top (oh how we miss thee) also provided selection, and while it didn't affect the board in as direct a way, being an artifact played much better with the rest of the deck, and it also let you see so many more cards than something like Light Up the Stage.

To anticipate a response regarding Copter: colo rightly points out that Smuggler's Copter does nothing on its own, but I think the fact that it does something (and quite a lot, at that) in combination with almost a third of the other cards you play (17+ creatures, with recruiters even finding you a backup) mean that you should generally have something to crew it with. There are certainly times when you have two Copters and no creatures, but statistically that shouldn't happen very often. A question for those who have found it to be lacklustre—do you generally find it's poor because your creatures have all been removed or because you don't draw enough of them?

As far as Hanna's Custody goes, despite having played with it only a handful of times, I found its clunkiness in combination with Welder and lack of impact on the board to be problematic. If you're only playing it as a 1-of, you can't rely on it being present early enough to allow you to play it before playing the things that it protects. This, in turn, means that you're going to keep trying to play your game, and if your threats get removed before it comes down, chances are you're going to not have much left that it actually protects.

Additionally, the decks that we are talking about bringing it in against mostly have answers. Miracles can remove Custody with Disenchant or Council's Judgement, for example, and can also counter it in a pinch, and playing a card that does stone-cold nothing at first if it does resolve seems antithetical to a gameplan that involves trimming the fat as much as possible (removing petals) and trying to make it difficult for them to remove all our threats by surgicalling their swords. Sure, Grixis doesn't have good answers beyond Force to Hanna's Custody, and forcing the Force (as it were) might be worthwhile in that matchup. But the same goes for Leonin Abunas, which is another option in that slot that, while being one mana more expensive, at least vaguely impacts the board and is easier to tutor for than Custody.

(Yes, Custody can be Enlightened Tutored for, but it's rare that you can afford to burn a 'slow' tutor on a non-combo piece if it's not winning you the game outright (cf. Blood Moon) because of how tempo-negative the card is and the extent to which that affects finding further gas.)

As far as Goblin Cratermaker vs Manic Vandal, I definitely hear you that it's awkward when you can't kill a Chalice because there's a Painter in play. That said, it's usually going to be clear when that is going to be a relevant concern, and can be mitigated by tight play and consciousness of the issue. What Cratermaker brings in spades is flexibility, not least being good enough all round to justify a slot in the maindeck, which gives you a lot of game against a variety of things pre-sideboard. I don't think the format is slow enough for a card like Viashino Heretic to shine. I've lost a number of games that I would otherwise have won due to the fact that it can't activate when you play it, and I think it's really tough to justify playing a card in the maindeck that is a vanilla 1/3 for 3 in a fair few matchups. My experience has been that Cratermaker has been the real deal for the deck.

[Mirrislegend]

surgicalling their swords

I never thought of Surgical Extraction as a card relevant to control matchups. However, I suppose it makes sense when you consider control decks to be threat-light and answer-dependent. Surgicalling StP vs Miracles or KCommand vs Grixis Control would go a long way towards swinging those matchups.

Any other non-graveyard decks where you'd recommend boarding in Surgicals? Despite StP and Snapcaster, I'm torn if Surgical is correct vs UW Delver.

[schweinefettmann]

Well, gut reaction says that against control, the clock isn’t as important, so surgical works fine. Against wu stoneblade, they have a relevant clock, and negative tempo of a surgical puts us too far behind when we need to be pushing things forwards. I might be wrong tho.
Maybe if it’s possible to surgical a critical threat? But it’s no guarantee it’d be possible to hit.


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[Michael Keller]

https://i.imgur.com/izZJLbq.jpg

It’s going down tomorrow.

[Mirrislegend]

I love it. I can't wait to hear how it goes. Won't you need a bunch of extra mana sources to cast that 5 drop? 4th City and maybe some SSGs? SSG and Doll are awkward with Light Up the Stage. Whatever, I'm sure it will be a blast.

[aedemiel]

It’s going down tomorrow.
Not a Shortcake player but I've been waiting for a lifetime to see this combo in Legacy! Let us know how it went.

[drude1]

@Jasper: Regarding your thoughts on light up the stage, no offense, but you obviously haven't played with the card. First, I would say that I agree that cutting smuggler's copter for this card might not be ideal, and I would argue then don't do it! I'm playing with both in my list and now I feel like I can at least have a shot at keeping up with the card drawing engines we are constantly facing in blue. I think 3 copter plus 3 LutS is probably where we want to be. Copter is obviously also great at turning on spectacle. As far as not being as good at finding our combo pieces as cantrips, I guess you can make that argument because most cantrips see 3 cards vs 2; but we aren't playing blue, so the argument is moot. Thus, LutS is the best thing we got going. Also, there are pros and cons to not adding the cards to our hand. The biggest pro is that those cards can't get stripped out of our hand by cards like thoughtseize or hymn. Second, it doesn't fill up your hand for ensnaring bridge. And third, it's not actually drawing cards so gets around some of the issues associated with that. In fact, in my more "experimental" version of the deck splashing black, Chains of Mephistopheles is great out of the sideboard against blue decks for this very reason. It is pure card advantage and the card has more than proven itself in other decks already. As far as flipping a blast, it doesn't go unused, even if it is unused. Obviously if you have a painter on the board then it is a vindicate for R. Even if you don't have a painter on board I have had multiple opponents take an entire turn off just waiting for the blast to disappear. Time walk? Yes please. And I don't really understand your argument of it not being good because it doesn't affect the board. I guess nobody should play brainstorm or ponder either then. Card drawing engines are a staple in any combo deck. I will say that the difficulty lies in what should be cut to play the card. Again, I will agree with you that smuggler's copter is better than people give it credit for. After all, we are playing an A + B combo deck. We should be doing everything in our power to find the necessary pieces as fast as we can. I just think that you need to get a couple matches using LotS under your belt before you criticize it. You will likely change your tune.

p.s. I also agree on your sentiments regarding goblin cratermaker. The Hanna's Custody issue is still up for debate, but as a one of I totally agree that it's impact is difficult to attain in a timely fashion. But against other heavy controlling decks you would just have to consider that, as you typically have time to set up. As I've been testing it, the times when it's on the board it is actually very good. It's just not realistic that you can get it on the board reasonably fast in most cases. You probably would actually need to play multiple copies for it to really have an effect. Given that Leonin Abunas is recruitable, that might be the card to go to if you are looking for this kind of effect, as e.tutor just has so many other likely more relevant targets.

[Michael Keller]

Got a lot of feedback to give after today’s event in Philly. Will follow up later.

[Xod]

Got a lot of feedback to give after today’s event in Philly. Will follow up later.

Excited!:smile: (couldn't play the deck yesterday, because my lava darts and LotS where still in the mail, but looking forward to it)

[Xod]

Just as a sidenote, played Keller's list 2 weeks back (proxies where allowed). And managed to go 3-1 with it. Won 2 times against Steel Stompy and once against a Depth Renanimator deck and lost against infect (didn't see a since blast in both games and Blighted agent killed me because of it)

Was super fun to play that list and both Copter as LotS did mayor work. Might wanna put in an extra Copter (number 3), but don't know what to cut. Also, Manic Vandal saved the game twice (steel stompy --> chalice), and with painter out it would be tricky to change it to cratermaker, but I agree, too much value all-around to not include him.

3 Fiery confluences where also all-stars.


So need to squeeze in an extra copter, and probably a Stuffy Doll :cool: (and a guilty conscience) maybe cutting a bridge. So very eager to see your feedback Michael.

[Michael Keller]

Don't play Guilty Conscience and Stuffy Doll. I was just trolling :)

[Xod]

Don't play Guilty Conscience and Stuffy Doll. I was just trolling :)
Awwww… still might try one on Thursday evening, just ffs. :tongue:

[Mirrislegend]

I'm on 3 Copter and 3 LUtS and the split is SO good. Going down to 5 blast in the maindeck is offset by the increased filtering.

Has anyone tested Fiery Confluence extensively? I'm concerned about the 4 CMC. Sure, the card is nuts against artifact decks, but if something is going to take the SB slots I have reserved for Pyroclasm, it better be fast enough for the Pyroclasm-relevant matchups (Delver/Pyromance, Elves, Death and Taxes, etc).

[Michael Keller]

I'm on 3 Copter and 3 LUtS and the split is SO good. Going down to 5 blast in the maindeck is offset by the increased filtering.

Has anyone tested Fiery Confluence extensively? I'm concerned about the 4 CMC. Sure, the card is nuts against artifact decks, but if something is going to take the SB slots I have reserved for Pyroclasm, it better be fast enough for the Pyroclasm-relevant matchups (Delver/Pyromance, Elves, Death and Taxes, etc).

This past weekend I took out the Confluences and played two Pyroclasm.

Here is a question I have for everyone: Do you think By Force or Rack and Ruin is better for artifact-based decks? Rack is conditional, obviously. The problem I always have using cards like these in those match-ups is wanting instant-speed reaction so I can free up mana the next main phase. Abrade is also very good.

Goblin Tinkerer was in the original lists for Painter; I wonder if it has any merit against Chalice, Needle and Vial strategies right now - because realistically, those are the only artifacts we care about. And - it lives against them. Batterskull and Jitte can both be killed by Tinkerer, but at the cost of losing him. Still - if you kill those artifacts anyhow, it doesn't matter.

EDIT: Tower of the Magistrate to save Tinkerer against artifacts decks and Stoneforge strategies?

[Megadeus]

This past weekend I took out the Confluences and played two Pyroclasm.

Here is a question I have for everyone: Do you think By Force or Rack and Ruin is better for artifact-based decks? The problem I always have using cards like these in those match-ups is wanting instant-speed reaction so I can free up mana the next main phase. Abrade is also very good.

Goblin Tinkerer was in the original lists for Painter; I wonder if it has any merit against Chalice, Needle and Vial strategies right now - because realistically, those are the only artifacts we care about. And - it lives against them. Batterskull and Jitte can both be killed by Tinkerer, but at the cost of losing him. Still - if you kill those artifacts anyhow, it doesn't matter.

I really really like abrade. I'm torn on it and cratermaker. Cratermaker has just been so meh for me because of the painter interaction. Tinkerer is probably fine, but how much better than Heretic is it?

[Michael Keller]

I really really like abrade. I'm torn on it and cratermaker. Cratermaker has just been so meh for me because of the painter interaction. Tinkerer is probably fine, but how much better than Heretic is it?

Heretic costs one more mana to cast and one more mana to activate. The only artifacts we really, honestly and truly care about are Chalice and probably Vial (which kind of cuts off Blood Moon's profitability) - and Tinkerer survives when you activate it on them. Needle and Mox Diamond are also on the list, I suppose.

EDIT: Tinkerer hits Inkmoth Nexus and lives - to a lesser extent.

[Mirrislegend]

Cratermaker and Abrade are roughly equivalent, but with different downsides. Cratermaker's ability to shoot artifacts is inconsistent due to the color issue and Abrade is not tutorable. If you only have one slot for this, then Cratermaker is favored. If you have multiple SB slots available, then a few Abrades could be worthwhile.

Given that Cratermaker dies to shoot an artifact, is Tinkerer really much different? I think if you're looking for repeated artifact removal, there's no real choice except Viashino Heretic.

I'd be on 2 Abrades right now if I wasn't desperate to fit in 2x Pyroclasm. Maybe its time to try Hedgemage again?

@MichaelKellerman: We're on the edge of our seats for that Philly tournament report!

[Michael Keller]

Cratermaker and Abrade are roughly equivalent, but with different downsides. Cratermaker's ability to shoot artifacts is inconsistent due to the color issue and Abrade is not tutorable. If you only have one slot for this, then Cratermaker is favored. If you have multiple SB slots available, then a few Abrades could be worthwhile.

Given that Cratermaker dies to shoot an artifact, is Tinkerer really much different? I think if you're looking for repeated artifact removal, there's no real choice except Viashino Heretic.

The problem I've seen with Heretic is that you're not always going to have a Sol land to cast him reliably on turn two. There are times where he will legitimately be active on turn four. If you can put a Tinkerer into play on turn one (Lotus Petal, SSG) or turn two naturally, then honestly Tinkerer is strictly superior. Again - the only artifact in Legacy right now that's worth caring about is Chalice of the Void - and it survives hitting that.

Consider that Wasteland also exists in the format, so if you somehow manage to land a Heretic on turn two off a Sol land and Mountain and it gets wasted, you won't be able to activate the Heretic if you don't have another mana source. However, if the same thing happens on turn two with a Tinkerer, you only need one red mana to activate it - which is very relevant.

To be quite frank, I think - right now in Legacy - Goblin Tinkerer outclasses Heretic from top to bottom, and it's not very close.

[finksfinksfinks]

I like the idea of Copter+LutS as a card advantage engine (will be testing later tonight), which leads me to a seemingly unrelated question: How worth it is Cannonist?
The main bonuses of the white splash so far have been Etutor and Cannonist. If Etutor can be replaced by LutS (I know it doesn't tutor, but it gets around Chalice and alongside Copter digs pretty deep without sacrificing card parity), then there's a possibility of keeping the combo focus of the deck without the complication of the white splash. I've never found cannonist to be that decisive, and often the color restrictions mean it doesn't always come down on turn 1 to stop Storm decks like Damping Sphere or Thorn of Amethyst would. Cutting both of those means that the deck can play Moon without shooting itself in the foot, doesn't have to worry about color restrictions, thus making things like Chandra or Confluence easier to reliably cast, and is also much less weak to wasteland strategies.
...And it becomes 3ish plateau's cheaper, which isn't the most pressing strategic concern but isn't irrelevant either.

[Mirrislegend]

The problem I've seen with Heretic is that you're not always going to have a Sol land to cast him reliably on turn two. There are times where he will legitimately be active on turn four. If you can put a Tinkerer into play on turn one (Lotus Petal, SSG) or turn two naturally, then honestly Tinkerer is strictly superior. Again - the only artifact in Legacy right now that's worth caring about is Chalice of the Void - and it survives hitting that.

Consider that Wasteland also exists in the format, so if you somehow manage to land a Heretic on turn two off a Sol land and Mountain and it gets wasted, you won't be able to activate the Heretic if you don't have another mana source. However, if the same thing happens on turn two with a Tinkerer, you only need one red mana to activate it - which is very relevant.

To be quite frank, I think - right now in Legacy - Goblin Tinkerer outclasses Heretic from top to bottom, and it's not very close.
You make great points and normally I would agree. However with Stoneforge rising again, being Jitte reliably and sometimes SoFaI and Batterskull feels really relevant. Maybe Tinkerer and some Abrade or Fiery Confluence?


I like the idea of Copter+LutS as a card advantage engine (will be testing later tonight), which leads me to a seemingly unrelated question: How worth it is Cannonist?
The main bonuses of the white splash so far have been Etutor and Cannonist. If Etutor can be replaced by LutS (I know it doesn't tutor, but it gets around Chalice and alongside Copter digs pretty deep without sacrificing card parity), then there's a possibility of keeping the combo focus of the deck without the complication of the white splash. I've never found cannonist to be that decisive, and often the color restrictions mean it doesn't always come down on turn 1 to stop Storm decks like Damping Sphere or Thorn of Amethyst would. Cutting both of those means that the deck can play Moon without shooting itself in the foot, doesn't have to worry about color restrictions, thus making things like Chandra or Confluence easier to reliably cast, and is also much less weak to wasteland strategies.
...And it becomes 3ish plateau's cheaper, which isn't the most pressing strategic concern but isn't irrelevant either.
I think that any number of card advantage and filtering engines will never make up for the ability to go "End of your turn, cast ETutor, gg". Also, non-creature bullets can't be bullets anymore. We'd need 3+ of Blood Moons and Ensnaring Bridges if we wanted to play them. The utility options, like Pithing Needle and Engineered Explosives, get really screwed over.

[Michael Keller]

You make great points and normally I would agree. However with Stoneforge rising again, being Jitte reliably and sometimes SoFaI and Batterskull feels really relevant. Maybe Tinkerer and some Abrade or Fiery Confluence?


Honestly, Stoneforge decks are seriously the least of Painter's worries. They're typically slower decks, unless you're playing the awful version that runs Delver which seems to be falling out of favor quickly. Painter just has so many ways to brick wall those strategies. When it comes to cards like Jitte and Batterskull, sure - Heretic has advantages - notably that it survives against an opponent with two Jitte counters. However, in weighing the issues the deck has against the whole of the format, Chalice is by far and away the most troublesome card - which makes Tinkerer a better option. Painter already has game against Stoneforge decks by making everything blue, effectively nullifying Sword of Fire and Ice. It also has a toughness of three, so Jitte has a harder time against that, as well.


I just think the bargain mana and activation cost of Tinkerer against Chalice outweighs Heretic in the early game. That's when Tinkerer works best - and when you'd need to stop Chalice most. Confluence is okay, and I liked it. I mean, if people are advocating trying out CMC=4 planeswalkers out of the sideboard as an alternate option to go wide against control, then sidestepping those slots and filling them with the utility of Confluence seems fine if your list is built better overall for the control matchup.



I think that any number of card advantage and filtering engines will never make up for the ability to go "End of your turn, cast ETutor, gg". Also, non-creature bullets can't be bullets anymore. We'd need 3+ of Blood Moons and Ensnaring Bridges if we wanted to play them. The utility options, like Pithing Needle and Engineered Explosives, get really screwed over.

Keep in mind that Surgical Extraction's stock is at an all-time high in both Legacy and Modern. That makes Enlightened Tutor substantially worse in post-board games against competent opponents. This is why I eschewed Stage this past weekend (to your other point) in Shortcake, because I think it's superior in Imperial Painter - not Shortcake. I think Imperial Painter (mono red) can be much more aggressive and has a better opportunity to be built properly to take advantage of Stage.

[Xod]

Are we discussing to included Goblin Tinkerer in the main deck (as a replacement for vandal/cratermaker) or more like a sideboard spot (with a cratermaker main). I would go with the latter option.

And I agree that the speed of tinkerer outclasses all the advantages of heretic.

Stupid question, if Rack and Ruin is on the stack, and the opponent can remove one of those targets, does it fizzle? (I'm just confused because of the wording)

[pettdan]

@Xod: you only need one legal target upon resolution. Edit: said by a non-judge.

[H]

@Xod: you only need one legal target upon resolution. Edit: said by a non-judge.

That is correct, a spell only fails to resolve if all it's legal targets are now illegal. Otherwise, the spell does as much as it can.

[drude1]

So I'm not really getting the issues people are having with cratermaker. I understand that it doesn't work to kill artifacts when a painter is out, but in game 1 you are usually going after a chalice and that is usually getting played on turn 1 or two. Just don't play a painter if they have dropped a chalice. I have had a couple games where the problem has been a jitte, but then the opponent usually just kills painter ASAP and I drop cratermaker and kill the jitte.
The overall utility of cratermaker in taking out a delver or pyromancer or thalia or the 30 other relevant creatures along with artifacts is just too good. Also, there is nothing more satisfying than dropping a cratermaker to a show and tell and blowing up the opponent's Emrakul. I had a game 2 days ago where I actually recruited for a cratermaker and my opponent STILL played show and tell into Emrakul. I also recently played a game where I was playing another deck and got my Ugin destroyed by a cratermaker against goblins. There is really no excuse to not having that card in at least your 75 right now. Also, if you really want some recurrent artifact and creature hate AND make artifact fodder for welder shenanigans, splash black and play Daretti! He's a house.

Also, has anyone considered forked bolt for creature removal? Seems good right now, although I really wish it was an instant.

[Michael Keller]

Thought long and hard on this one. I took everyone's feedback, incorporated my experiences and came up with this draft:

4 Painter's Servant
3 Goblin Welder
3 Imperial Recruiter
2 Goblin Cratermaker
2 Mother of Runes
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Magus of the Moon

4 Grindstone
2 Smuggler's Copter
2 Ensnaring Bridge

4 Pyroblast
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Enlightened Tutor

1 Blood Moon

4 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Arid Mesa
3 City of Traitors
3 Plateau
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Great Furnace

//SB
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroclasm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Goblin Cratermaker
1 Containment Priest
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Meekstone
1 Blood Moon

Since the deck is less "all-in" on Blood Moon turn one, I cut the Petals and Spirit Guides and just went with a straight-forward, basic approach: a healthy balance of creatures, removal and permission and lands.

[schweinefettmann]

For 1 more mana, at instant speed, you get fire//ice.. that can be relevant; doesn’t get knocked by chalice either. The ice half is probably fringe usable; say against a trinisphere or against a vial..


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[Mirrislegend]

Thought long and hard on this one. I took everyone's feedback, incorporated my experiences and came up with this draft:

4 Painter's Servant
3 Goblin Welder
3 Imperial Recruiter
2 Goblin Cratermaker
2 Mother of Runes
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Magus of the Moon

4 Grindstone
2 Smuggler's Copter
2 Ensnaring Bridge

4 Pyroblast
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Enlightened Tutor

1 Blood Moon

4 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Arid Mesa
3 City of Traitors
3 Plateau
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Great Furnace

//SB
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroclasm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Goblin Cratermaker
1 Containment Priest
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Meekstone
1 Blood Moon

Since the deck is less "all-in" on Blood Moon turn one, I cut the Petals and Spirit Guides and just went with a straight-forward, basic approach: a healthy balance of creatures, removal and permission and lands.

Wow this is hella spicy.
I love the Mother of Runes and Lightning Bolts and Swords to Plowshares! Trading out fast mana and going up to 21 lands seems reasonable and that 1x Karakas is a wonderful way to make use of that change.
My concerns:
- I'm not sure that 7 creature-oriented removal is correct in a deck with 2 Ensnaring Bridge and 2 Enlightened Tutor.
- Among that removal, I'm not sure the split is right. Since this deck doesn't look particularly aggressive, why not skew towards Swords to Plowshares to hit Marit Lage and Gurmag Angler? Also, why so many Lightning Bolts? 2 Bolts and 4 StP (along with 4 Pyroblast) would almost certainly be sufficient to keep down aggressive enemy starts (that your current removal package seems to be tuned for) while staying flexible for other threats.
- Only 3 Imperial Recruiter? I feel like with this shell against many decks I'll want to sequence a Mom followed by a Painter or a Cratermaker then a Painter. Neither of which seem very viable without 4 Recruiter. That having been said, I'm a very bad Magic player, so those lines could be very wrong.
- Only 2 filtering/dig? 2 Copter, 0 Light Up the Stage, 0 Faithless Looting seems criminal! What are you going to do when you can't mise what you need?
- Are you not missing Walking Ballista? It's been OKAY for me, but I've heard lots of love for it.

Damn, I liked my list and now I have to wedge in a Mother of Runes? Curse you and your savage tech! ;)

[Michael Keller]

My concerns:
- I'm not sure that 7 creature-oriented removal is correct in a deck with 2 Ensnaring Bridge and 2 Enlightened Tutor.

Seven removal spells is actually much more aggressive holistically towards removal than most Painter builds. Pyroblast also does fit that bill, to a degree. That's eleven (11) potential removal spells. Two Enlightened Tutor as opposed to three is indicative of a shift away from leaning on the combo and more to ground and pound, and two Bridge is always a proper number in Painter - regardless of the number of Tutors you play.


- Among that removal, I'm not sure the split is right. Since this deck doesn't look particularly aggressive, why not skew towards Swords to Plowshares to hit Marit Lage and Gurmag Angler? Also, why so many Lightning Bolts? 2 Bolts and 4 StP (along with 4 Pyroblast) would almost certainly be sufficient to keep down aggressive enemy starts (that your current removal package seems to be tuned for) while staying flexible for other threats

Since the deck isn't focusing more on the combo and fast mana, Lightning Bolt is more aggressive, kills Planeswalkers and gives you reach against decks like Dimir Shadow. Swords to Plowshares is sure-fire removal, but we're also not predominantly base white with our mana.


- Only 3 Imperial Recruiter? I feel like with this shell against many decks I'll want to sequence a Mom followed by a Painter or a Cratermaker then a Painter. Neither of which seem very viable without 4 Recruiter. That having been said, I'm a very bad Magic player, so those lines could be very wrong.

Three Recruiter is fine. There are fewer one-ofs in the deck, so redundant copies and a trifecta of tutors are fine (five if you count Enlightened Tutor for Painter).


- Only 2 filtering/dig? 2 Copter, 0 Light Up the Stage, 0 Faithless Looting seems criminal! What are you going to do when you can't mise what you need?

Light up the Stage in some number could be viable, but that would likely require looking elsewhere to make space. Looting isn't very good in a build where you're incidentally looking to abuse Welder as opposed to purposely using Welder. You could make room for a third, though.


- Are you not missing Walking Ballista? It's been OKAY for me, but I've heard lots of love for it.

I hate Ballista in Painter. It's a tutor target, sure, but I've never liked it. It mostly comes down as a 1/1 or 2/2. I'd rather invest my mana somewhere else later in the game.


Damn, I liked my list and now I have to wedge in a Mother of Runes? Curse you and your savage tech! ;)

Ha - to be honest, I think Mother of Runes is probably where we want to be if we're playing white. You all know what it does and what it can do. Painter is the card you really need to protect; Mother is probably the best card in Legacy at doing that. I tried Custody and haven't gotten enough reps in yet with it, but Mother is tried and true.

[Mirrislegend]

indicative of a shift away from leaning on the combo and more to ground and pound
This is the context I was missing. With that context, 4 Bolt and 3 Swords makes much more sense.

However, other parts of the construction make less sense. 2 Bridges, Mom, and a 21st land all seem counter to a creature-attack design.

I feel that if you want to attack, I think the mono-red shell is correct. You can fit 4 LUtS to compliment the offense. You can play Pia and Kiran (in multiples!) without mana color concerns. Hell, you could maindeck Chandra ToD to guarantee Spectacle (plus her other obvious benefits).

If you want to hybridize, want options, or want more combo focus then that's where Shortcake shines. All of which are among the reasons that I'm on Shortcake.

[drude1]

I actually really like mother of runes in the deck and would argue that if you are going to play it, you probably want 3-4 so you can get it out early. It does the job of Hanna's custody or leonin, etc. without being clunky.
The thing I don't like about this list is that you are portraying it as more of a "ground-and-pound" list but you are trying to do that with a bunch of 1 and 2 power creatures. You are simply going to get outclassed. This list should really be all about copter. Otherwise you are just spending turns trying to kill your opponent's creatures while naturally drawing into your combo. I admittedly really don't like the 7 removal cards in the list. It just feels really schizophrenic. It's a bad hate bear deck with a 2 card combo in there as an after thought. I would say cut the removal, up your copter count and get LotS back in the list. Then you are definitely on to something.

I'm feeling hyper critical these days I guess. Sorry. Just my $0.02.

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[Michael Keller]

This is the context I was missing. With that context, 4 Bolt and 3 Swords makes much more sense.

However, other parts of the construction make less sense. 2 Bridges, Mom, and a 21st land all seem counter to a creature-attack design.

That's part of how Painter plays. Painter decks - in practice - have always run one or two Ensnaring Bridges with a load of random creatures. That's just how the deck plays. Twenty-one lands (seven of which add two mana) is perfectly acceptable. Aether Vial in Death and Taxes is effectively a mana accelerator and uses multiple colorless-producing lands. Nothing in this iteration uses more than a single color to cast anything, which makes it easier on the mana base.

And sometimes, sticking a Bridge and flooding the board is fine lining up for an eventual alpha assault. It's not like you're playing Brainstorm or Ponder here; you're creating lines of play off of what's in your hand and what you're against. Ensnaring Bridge may seem counter-intuitive on the surface, but it's ultimately there to protect you against larger threats cheated into play.


I feel that if you want to attack, I think the mono-red shell is correct. You can fit 4 LUtS to compliment the offense. You can play Pia and Kiran (in multiples!) without mana color concerns. Hell, you could maindeck Chandra ToD to guarantee Spectacle (plus her other obvious benefits).

I disagree. Just because you have a second color doesn't mean you can't win the game on the ground. Most games in Painter I'd argue are won without Grindstone and just grinding out victories through asymmetric mana shutdown from Blood Moon or Blast effects and attackers.


If you want to hybridize, want options, or want more combo focus then that's where Shortcake shines. All of which are among the reasons that I'm on Shortcake.

I disagree again. You can run either version and change the architecture of the deck to support your strategy, and R/w is really the same with a few mana adjustments and Enlightened Tutor. Cards like Swords to Plowshares and Lightning Bolt clear the path for attackers to pin down damage.

Painter is a "weeny" deck at heart - and first and foremost. Grindstone is just a scare tactic for opponents that makes them think twice about what you're going to do and how they need to sequence their plays. All the meanwhile the only thing you care about is clocking them each turn, whittling away at their life total and winning that way or then with Grindstone.

Enlightened Tutor again adds major security vulnerabilities to the deck post-board in some match-ups because of Extraction. I'd argue that in games two and three you actually want to go aggro as opposed to combo.

[Mirrislegend]

sometimes, sticking a Bridge and flooding the board is fine lining up for an eventual alpha assault. It's not like you're playing Brainstorm or Ponder here; you're creating lines of play off of what's in your hand and what you're against. Ensnaring Bridge may seem counter-intuitive on the surface, but it's ultimately there to protect you against larger threats cheated into play.

I disagree. Just because you have a second color doesn't mean you can't win the game on the ground. Most games in Painter I'd argue are won without Grindstone and just grinding out victories through asymmetric mana shutdown from Blood Moon or Blast effects and attackers.

I disagree again. You can run either version and change the architecture of the deck to support your strategy, and R/w is really the same with a few mana adjustments and Enlightened Tutor. Cards like Swords to Plowshares and Lightning Bolt clear the path for attackers to pin down damage.

Painter is a "weeny" deck at heart - and first and foremost. Grindstone is just a scare tactic for opponents that makes them think twice about what you're going to do and how they need to sequence their plays. All the meanwhile the only thing you care about is clocking them each turn, whittling away at their life total and winning that way or then with Grindstone.

Enlightened Tutor again adds major security vulnerabilities to the deck post-board in some match-ups because of Extraction. I'd argue that in games two and three you actually want to go aggro as opposed to combo.

I'm following your logic more now.

However, as far as I can understand, your list does not comply with your intent. If you intend to attack, would you not chose more combat viable creatures?

Hangarback Walker, Endless One, Dauntless Bodyguard, Figure of Destiny, Herald of Anafenza, Hope of Ghirapur!, more Smuggler's Copter, Pia and Kiran Nalaar, there are so many options for attackers.

Yet you picked 2 Mother of Runes (which seems like a combo-focused choice) and an extra Cratermaker and cut down to 2 Copter. I don't see how that provides combat viability for the weenie plan. What am I missing?

[colo]

I was considering Mother of Runes in this deck as well. I've been playing Death and Taxes long enough to appreciate how good that card is. Now, I also respect Ethersworn Canonist for its ability to grind the Xerox engine to a halt (and it's just insane with Mother in play), but as far as combo protection goes... has anyone of you ever considered Grand Abolisher? I realize WW isn't necessarily easy to cast, but since some of you seem to be considering alternatives to the Sol land manabase anyway, I think it could still fit...

Reaching a critical number of Humans in the deck (Mother, Abolisher, Recruiter, Canonist all share that type) could make Cavern of Souls a valid option for colour fixing that does not impede the two main combo pieces, and between blasts, Mothers, Abolisher and Canonists, it should be possible to combo out with impunity quite often.

[Mirrislegend]

I was considering Mother of Runes in this deck as well. I've been playing Death and Taxes long enough to appreciate how good that card is. Now, I also respect Ethersworn Canonist for its ability to grind the Xerox engine to a halt (and it's just insane with Mother in play), but as far as combo protection goes... has anyone of you ever considered Grand Abolisher? I realize WW isn't necessarily easy to cast, but since some of you seem to be considering alternatives to the Sol land manabase anyway, I think it could still fit...

Reaching a critical number of Humans in the deck (Mother, Abolisher, Recruiter, Canonist all share that type) could make Cavern of Souls a valid option for colour fixing that does not impede the two main combo pieces, and between blasts, Mothers, Abolisher and Canonists, it should be possible to combo out with impunity quite often.

You are too spicy for me. I can't handle it. I just wanna understand Keller's aggro plans.

[CptHaddock]

I was considering Mother of Runes in this deck as well. I've been playing Death and Taxes long enough to appreciate how good that card is. Now, I also respect Ethersworn Canonist for its ability to grind the Xerox engine to a halt (and it's just insane with Mother in play), but as far as combo protection goes... has anyone of you ever considered Grand Abolisher? I realize WW isn't necessarily easy to cast, but since some of you seem to be considering alternatives to the Sol land manabase anyway, I think it could still fit...

Reaching a critical number of Humans in the deck (Mother, Abolisher, Recruiter, Canonist all share that type) could make Cavern of Souls a valid option for colour fixing that does not impede the two main combo pieces, and between blasts, Mothers, Abolisher and Canonists, it should be possible to combo out with impunity quite often.

Why do you think that a card that isn't even playable in the dedicated white weenie deck is playable in this one?

[finksfinksfinks]

I'm testing a defense grid in the side, which should do more or less the same thing as abolisher but is easier to cast and interacts well with welder. Not sure if it's good enough vs control but I think it's a better fit than abolisher.

[CptHaddock]

Thought long and hard on this one. I took everyone's feedback, incorporated my experiences and came up with this draft:

4 Painter's Servant
3 Goblin Welder
3 Imperial Recruiter
2 Goblin Cratermaker
2 Mother of Runes
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Magus of the Moon

4 Grindstone
2 Smuggler's Copter
2 Ensnaring Bridge

4 Pyroblast
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Enlightened Tutor

1 Blood Moon

4 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Arid Mesa
3 City of Traitors
3 Plateau
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Great Furnace

//SB
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroclasm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Goblin Cratermaker
1 Containment Priest
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Meekstone
1 Blood Moon

Since the deck is less "all-in" on Blood Moon turn one, I cut the Petals and Spirit Guides and just went with a straight-forward, basic approach: a healthy balance of creatures, removal and permission and lands.

I really think you should fix the mana especially since you actively need a white source for a turn 1 mom. Frank Karsten wrote a great article about this: https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/frank-analysis-how-many-colored-mana-sources-do-you-need-to-consistently-cast-your-spells/. He recommends 14 for a turn 1 play.

[colo]

Why do you think that a card that isn't even playable in the dedicated white weenie deck is playable in this one?


Abolisher completely shuts out your opponent during your turn own, so any instant speed interaction with Painter's Servant or (casting) Grindstone is nullified, which will win the game for Painter - while it won't win the game for a "White Weenie" (assuming D&T, which I've been playing since 2008) deck.

@finksfinksfinks: How do you like it, and when/against what do you board it in? The fact that Defense Grid has a symmetric effect makes it *far* worse in my book, but the fact that it's an artifact and can be cast off of any mana sources is an obvious and siginficant upside.

[Mirrislegend]

I feel that Canonist + Blast make for a decent defense against our-turn interaction. Canonists and Blasts are both relevant on the opponent's turn, which Abolisher and Defense Grid are not. Abolisher requires double white. Defense Grid stops us from countering their plays with Blasts. I'm going to stick with Canonist + Blast.

@Michael Keller: Please come back and explain to me the attacking aspects of your latest Shortcake list. I'm still so confused.

[finksfinksfinks]

I'm mainly bringing it in vs control decks, miracles and grixis. Any time where they care more about my turn than I do theirs.
The idea is that I don't care about countering anything they're doing unless it's interrupting my game plan, so I only need to interact on my turn.

[Mirrislegend]

I'm mainly bringing it in vs control decks, miracles and grixis. Any time where they care more about my turn than I do theirs.
The idea is that I don't care about countering anything they're doing unless it's interrupting my game plan, so I only need to interact on my turn.
So they play their removal at sorcery speed. And sorcery speed removal IS strictly worse than instant speed removal. However, unless you're planning on putting Painter and Grindstone onto the field and immediately activating Grindstone all within one turn, sorcery speed removal will still be sufficient to stop you.

[Megadeus]

So they play their removal at sorcery speed. And sorcery speed removal IS strictly worse than instant speed removal. However, unless you're planning on putting Painter and Grindstone onto the field and immediately activating Grindstone all within one turn, sorcery speed removal will still be sufficient to stop you.
Agreed here. Unfortunately our combo is 6 total Mana to cast and activate. It's not unreasonable to get to by any means, but it is a lot.

[schweinefettmann]

Agreed here. Unfortunately our combo is 6 total Mana to cast and activate. It's not unreasonable to get to by any means, but it is a lot.

well, 4 mana in play plus 1-2 petal and SSG makes the 6 mana not too impossible. and anyways, we're usually planning to combo off over like 2 turns, right?

I'm right now testing leonin abunas and earnest fellowship. basically locks out our blasts (sort of), but protects everything outside of wraths and edicts. recruitable and enlightened tutor-able too. but its basically only useful in really grindy control games.

Regarding grand abolisher, i think it might be more playable if you feel that a heavier white splash is necessary. There are certainly a lot of good white cards that works in shortcake; canonist, abunas, mom, swords, E-tutor, containment priest. i could probably even make an argument to make the deck even more grindy and staxy with trinispheres, defense grids and smokestack and dropping the blasts, bolts and swords (which i'm actually trying, and having it explode on me quite often).

If we do run more white, and wanting that double-white i'd probably go with 4 arid mesa, 2-3 plateau, 2 plains and 1 karakas at minimum.

I'm wondering though, especially for you guys who are a lot more experienced with the deck, what's the sort of "cost" between threatening a blast and playing protection for your stuff? As in is the cost of making our manabase worse and adding more fluff in the deck worth adding the protection? So far, i feel like most of the protection cards I'm playing are either blanking like 10+ cards and therefore wins the game, or is completely irrelevant and slows me down too much and could have done the same thing with blast and/or other effects i already have in-deck.

[Megadeus]

well, 4 mana in play plus 1-2 petal and SSG makes the 6 mana not too impossible. and anyways, we're usually planning to combo off over like 2 turns, right?

I'm right now testing leonin abunas and earnest fellowship. basically locks out our blasts (sort of), but protects everything outside of wraths and edicts. recruitable and enlightened tutor-able too. but its basically only useful in really grindy control games.

Regarding grand abolisher, i think it might be more playable if you feel that a heavier white splash is necessary. There are certainly a lot of good white cards that works in shortcake; canonist, abunas, mom, swords, E-tutor, containment priest. i could probably even make an argument to make the deck even more grindy and staxy with trinispheres, defense grids and smokestack and dropping the blasts, bolts and swords (which i'm actually trying, and having it explode on me quite often).

If we do run more white, and wanting that double-white i'd probably go with 4 arid mesa, 2-3 plateau, 2 plains and 1 karakas at minimum.

I'm wondering though, especially for you guys who are a lot more experienced with the deck, what's the sort of "cost" between threatening a blast and playing protection for your stuff? As in is the cost of making our manabase worse and adding more fluff in the deck worth adding the protection? So far, i feel like most of the protection cards I'm playing are either blanking like 10+ cards and therefore wins the game, or is completely irrelevant and slows me down too much and could have done the same thing with blast and/or other effects i already have in-deck.

The point is though that if you have defense grid or abolisher then they can still use their removal at sorcery speed. So playing part of your combo and then passing the turn makes it so your grid is irrelevant. For grid to matter you need to go off all at once

[Mirrislegend]

The point is though that if you have defense grid or abolisher then they can still use their removal at sorcery speed. So playing part of your combo and then passing the turn makes it so your grid is irrelevant. For grid to matter you need to go off all at once

Thank you for making my point more eloquently that I did. Hopefully everyone understands now.

So, seeing as Michael Keller hasn't shown up in a while, does anyone want to weigh in on his statements? Specifically that Strawberry Shortcake was always a weenie deck at heart.

[8bit9mm]

Thank you for making my point more eloquently that I did. Hopefully everyone understands now.

So, seeing as Michael Keller hasn't shown up in a while, does anyone want to weigh in on his statements? Specifically that Strawberry Shortcake was always a weenie deck at heart.

I'll weigh in with that, because I don't necessarily agree.

Back when we had Top, I would have classified Shortcake as a Prison/Combo deck that just so happened to have a dual silver bullet package between Recruiter and E-tutor.

Although the deck contained some weenies, they weren't really the focus of your gameplan.

[Mirrislegend]

I'll weigh in with that, because I don't necessarily agree.

Back when we had Top, I would have classified Shortcake as a Prison/Combo deck that just so happened to have a dual silver bullet package between Recruiter and E-tutor.

Although the deck contained some weenies, they weren't really the focus of your gameplan.

That is indeed the impression I got! Especially when reading the history of the deck.
Without Top, we've recently found other ways to filter and dig. Copter requires attacks and Light Up the Stage both requires damaging the opponent. That naturally evolves the deck towards attacking. Also, in my opinion, Blood Moon's effectiveness is on the downswing between the success of Dragon Stompy and Miracles using Back to Basics (which is also spreading to StoneBlade Control). With our best Prison element losing power, I feel like we're left with combo and aggro to work with.

If we're going to attack, might as well pick good candidates for the job. What combat creatures are worth considering? I think the best choice is Pia and Kiran Nalaar, but at 4cmc with double red its definitely a stretch. Next one I would consider would be Hope of Ghirapur, which would allow us to protect our combo turn, but is not particularly aggressive. Dauntless Bodyguard has 2 power, but doesn't protect against Swords to Plowshares. Anyone got any suggestions?

[Michael Keller]

Thank you for making my point more eloquently that I did. Hopefully everyone understands now.

So, seeing as Michael Keller hasn't shown up in a while, does anyone want to weigh in on his statements? Specifically that Strawberry Shortcake was always a weenie deck at heart.

Sorry dude, I've got work and kids and they kind of keep me busy.

We have differing opinions of slight intricacies of how the deck is defined. It's a Painter's Servant deck with Grindstone and creatures that do things. That has always been its core fabric. I focus on playing it a different way than some people, and I've taken big-tournament hits on risks to see how they'd play out. I'm basing my list on my own experiences, which I've shared.

[Glass House]

If we're going to attack, might as well pick good candidates for the job. What combat creatures are worth considering? I think the best choice is Pia and Kiran Nalaar, but at 4cmc with double red its definitely a stretch. Next one I would consider would be Hope of Ghirapur, which would allow us to protect our combo turn, but is not particularly aggressive. Dauntless Bodyguard has 2 power, but doesn't protect against Swords to Plowshares. Anyone got any suggestions?
On the topic of protection, Samite Elder becomes Super Mom with a Painter in play.

[Michael Keller]

On the topic of protection, Samite Elder becomes Super Mom with a Painter in play.

Elder is cute, but Mom is just superior, comes down on turn one and unconditional without needing a Painter in play.

[schweinefettmann]

On the topic of protection, Samite Elder becomes Super Mom with a Painter in play.

well, with a painter in play, earnest fellowship beats samite elder too; makes all swords fall off everyone and really messes with everyone's heads with what has protection from whatever else!

But mr keller is right on. it's not about how effective a card is when it hits play, it's also about the sequencing to how you get to that point. It's easy to point at that marit lage token and say that it was the 20/20 that killed me, but in reality, it's the entire sequencing up to that point that actually killed me.

When i lose to DnT, it's almost always on the back of a mom. Not being able to kill it is a massive pain, especially since naming the painter's colour basically prohibits anything i can possibly cast/do to get it. The only thing is a non-targeted -x/-x, stack manipulation, or an actual sweeper that can get it. and all of those things (sulfur elemental aside) are very resource-draining for RW painter decks.

i currently don't run mom, but i probably really should. but the pain on my manabase is pretty nutty as it is, i'm not sure if i can afford more bends. I can only afford 1 arid mesa and 4 other mountain fetches for my 1 plateau, 2 basic plains and 1 white artifact land (forget the name) + 4 petals. anyone have any idea how to squeeze them in? or am i basically boned as it is? transformational sideboard?

[Megadeus]

If Mom is a problem, Ballista is a hell of a card

[schweinefettmann]

It sure is, if Painter isn’t already in play. And if painters in play, our own moms are amazing!


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[Mirrislegend]

If Mom is a problem, Ballista is a hell of a card

I've been consistently unimpressed by Ballista. Maybe its because I haven't been playing against Death and Taxes? I've talked to 1 other person who felt it was a dud, and 2 who felt it was amazing. 2/2 split, nothing conclusive. I cut Ballista for Mom and I'm happy so far.

[Fallen_Empire]

That is indeed the impression I got! Especially when reading the history of the deck.
Without Top, we've recently found other ways to filter and dig. Copter requires attacks and Light Up the Stage both requires damaging the opponent. That naturally evolves the deck towards attacking. Also, in my opinion, Blood Moon's effectiveness is on the downswing between the success of Dragon Stompy and Miracles using Back to Basics (which is also spreading to StoneBlade Control). With our best Prison element losing power, I feel like we're left with combo and aggro to work with.

If we're going to attack, might as well pick good candidates for the job. What combat creatures are worth considering? I think the best choice is Pia and Kiran Nalaar, but at 4cmc with double red its definitely a stretch. Next one I would consider would be Hope of Ghirapur, which would allow us to protect our combo turn, but is not particularly aggressive. Dauntless Bodyguard has 2 power, but doesn't protect against Swords to Plowshares. Anyone got any suggestions?

4x Cannonist's makes Storm a bye, it also puts in major work against cantrip decks and all this phoenix nonsense. This is a lock angle that goes under the radar but yes I think you are right about moon's decline. Besides card filtering, the copters served an important role as a plan b (creature beats). Do we really want to play a painter deck that scoops if grindstone or painter gets surgical'd? I feel like that is what this deck is if we don't have a creature angle. I think if we take copter's out we should look to better creatures as well. What do you think about jamming -4x copter 3xStoneforge/1xBatterskull package?

[schweinefettmann]

So it didn't go too well for me last night at the local; I won so number of games, but lost every match. My assumption is that I mis-diagnosed the beatdown/control roles in some of the games.

Some notes on individual cards:
hanna's custody - It induced many groans when it hit. That being said, locking me out of using welder has been painful, but protecting the combo was better. Every time it landed, it was more beneficial than detrimental, i'd say. abrupt decay is hard to deal with though.
smuggler's copter - when it's good, it's amazing. When it's bad, it's horrendous. It reminds me a lot of moggy flunkies back in the day when i played goblins. The number of times it gets pushed after i tap something else to crew it makes it pretty bad, but more often than not, it just ends up stranded with no pilots.
aethersworn canonist - no combo players here aside from me, and it kept eating removal (like, end of my turn, then main phase of theirs, then they just continue). can occasionally help to eke a win.
goblin cratermaker - usually better than it looks. That being said, it's a one-shot effect, and apparently there are no omni-tell players here. I'm thinking i should switch this to either gorilla shaman or goblin tinkerer. or maybe even vandal.
walking ballista - saw it once, was relevant basically 0% of the time, and it just ate a K.command.
engineered explosives - it was surprisingly good. Nuked a bob, a library and something else that i can't remember. miles better than ratchet bomb!
simian spirit guide - Basically ended up as a win-con more than half of my wins. combo in play with a canonist in play, they try to nuke the grindstone when i only have 1 mana up, then double SSG in response for the win. Also being able to 0-mana blast something has been cute.
thopter/swords - it's too cute here. I think at the end of the day, it's a deck with a bunch of 2-card synergies/combos. I don't think i need even more that aren't sharing pieces with other combos.
light up the stage - I think its good. My deck ran 4 LUTS and 3 copters. the copters drew me some cards and fuelled welders (if they survived), but LutS is real. 3 mana draw 2 isn't the worst, and considering that i always end up low on cards, every little bit helps.
daretti, scrap savant - is surprisingly good. ended up getting me i have no idea how many cards, and then fed the welder. I think daretti is actually better than karn in this deck, but your milage may vary (my build probably has fewer artefacts compared to the norm, i think).

The one card i really don't know what to think of is the enlightened tutor. Against 2 knights, i was able to tutor for a bridge, but that card disadvantage is a bit of a killer. I'm thinking that the deck has a bit too much going on. Or maybe it's my little brain that's struggling to keep up with all the lines that i should be taking.

At the end of the day, i think mr Keller is bang-on; a weenie plan B/C is a good idea. 4 bolts, some number of swords, 1-2 copters, 4 bomats, 4 moms, 4 painters, 3 canonists, 4 welders, 1-2 heretics, and some number of fiery confluence.

In the future though, i'm thinking of testing bomat courier. Anyone else used it? it's a 1 mana 1/1 haste dude that exiles the top of the library. then at the low cost of a red, pitching your hand, you can take all the cards exiled with the courier to your hand. The big downside though is that it's face-down (so you can't see it). it can be offset by recruiter and/or E.tutor (since you can just look through your deck to see what's missing).

Does anyone know of streams/videos of games of shortcake that i can use to study up a bit?

[jasper]

This is mostly a crosspost from the Discord server, with a few additional thoughts in response to things that have been said on the thread in the last few days.

I played a league with LutS last night, in the build at the bottom of the post.

The main deck is fairly similar to the list that Michael Keller played to 59th (?) at the SCG event a while back, the main features of which I see as being: 2 Smuggler's Copter, 3 Light up the Stage, 2 Enlightened Tutor, 2 Canonist, 1 Magus of the Moon.

The changes I made were designed to increase the chances of triggering spectacle, with an extra 1-drop in form of Mother of Runes, which is sort of like a 4th Welder with a slightly different use-case. I cut Spellskite because it plays poorly with both LutS and Smuggler's Copter, cut Manic Vandal because I think Goblin Cratermaker is better as a maindeck card and generally does more, and cut a Bridge because I see it as more of an Enlightened Tutor silver bullet.

The sideboard is fairly radically different, and much closer to what I have been running in other builds of Shortcake. I don't think Lava Dart and Zuran Orb are playable, and I think that Surgical Extraction is the best choice for graveyard hate over something like Faerie Macabre because it's better against Loam decks and also comes in against Miracles for StP.

The other notable difference is that there's the option to go up to four copies of Blood Moon (and one Magus) post-board, which is a concession to depths and because in general having only one more moon post-board felt a bit anaemic. The thinking is that if it's good in a matchup, it would be good to be able to maximise the number of copies. Jury's still out on whether that's optimal, but it 'feels' good; I could also see going down to 2 in the board which still lets you go up to four copies of moon including magus post-board.

Also, no sweepers in the board currently, which could be wrong—I wouldn't mind finding space for a couple of Pyroclasms or Sulfur Elementals.

In any case the league went pretty well, despite finishing 3-2. Lost 1-2 to a couple of very good draws from Depths that would have been beatable but for being on the draw, lost 1-2 to UR Delver in games that were close and felt winnable, and beat 4c Loam (2-0), DnT (2-0) and BR Reanimator (2-1, despite MtGO crashing during sideboarding leaving me unboarded for game 2).


@Jasper: Regarding your thoughts on light up the stage, no offense, but you obviously haven't played with the card. First, I would say that I agree that cutting smuggler's copter for this card might not be ideal, and I would argue then don't do it! I'm playing with both in my list and now I feel like I can at least have a shot at keeping up with the card drawing engines we are constantly facing in blue. I think 3 copter plus 3 LutS is probably where we want to be. Copter is obviously also great at turning on spectacle. As far as not being as good at finding our combo pieces as cantrips, I guess you can make that argument because most cantrips see 3 cards vs 2; but we aren't playing blue, so the argument is moot. Thus, LutS is the best thing we got going. Also, there are pros and cons to not adding the cards to our hand. The biggest pro is that those cards can't get stripped out of our hand by cards like thoughtseize or hymn. Second, it doesn't fill up your hand for ensnaring bridge. And third, it's not actually drawing cards so gets around some of the issues associated with that. In fact, in my more "experimental" version of the deck splashing black, Chains of Mephistopheles is great out of the sideboard against blue decks for this very reason. It is pure card advantage and the card has more than proven itself in other decks already. As far as flipping a blast, it doesn't go unused, even if it is unused. Obviously if you have a painter on the board then it is a vindicate for R. Even if you don't have a painter on board I have had multiple opponents take an entire turn off just waiting for the blast to disappear. Time walk? Yes please. And I don't really understand your argument of it not being good because it doesn't affect the board. I guess nobody should play brainstorm or ponder either then. Card drawing engines are a staple in any combo deck. I will say that the difficulty lies in what should be cut to play the card. Again, I will agree with you that smuggler's copter is better than people give it credit for. After all, we are playing an A + B combo deck. We should be doing everything in our power to find the necessary pieces as fast as we can. I just think that you need to get a couple matches using LotS under your belt before you criticize it. You will likely change your tune.

p.s. I also agree on your sentiments regarding goblin cratermaker. The Hanna's Custody issue is still up for debate, but as a one of I totally agree that it's impact is difficult to attain in a timely fashion. But against other heavy controlling decks you would just have to consider that, as you typically have time to set up. As I've been testing it, the times when it's on the board it is actually very good. It's just not realistic that you can get it on the board reasonably fast in most cases. You probably would actually need to play multiple copies for it to really have an effect. Given that Leonin Abunas is recruitable, that might be the card to go to if you are looking for this kind of effect, as e.tutor just has so many other likely more relevant targets.

Fair points, and absolutely no offence taken—you were right that I needed to get some games in with it, which is why I kept prefacing my comments with the caveat that I hadn't. So thanks you for giving me the impetus to give it a go.

As far as LutS, which is the main thing I was really testing, I tried a few games with it in a mono-red imperial build and found myself unable to spectacle it enough, hence the changes to the shortcake build to try and facilitate that more. I think that if you're spec'ing it more often than not, it can be pretty good, but when you're having to pay full price for it, it's a fairly big hit to tempo. (That said, sol lands do help with that, of course.) Overall you were right that I liked it better than I thought I would (in shortcake, in the build of imperial it felt not great due to lack of 1- and 2-drops that could get in for damage), so will carry on testing.

I definitely take your point about the pros of not adding the cards against discard and for Bridge. I can also definitely see the 3/3 Smuggler/LutS split being correct, and will keep tweaking numbers. To clarify my point about not affecting the board, I meant that in terms of playing it as a 3-mana card. It remains problematic in my view to spend 3-mana to not affect the board, hence my discussion of card advantage engines in other decks. Brainstorm and Ponder are good because they are cheap—at 3 mana, they are awful (and even at 2 they would be poor). That's why I tweaked the build to facilitate triggering spectacle more reliably, and indeed I think it could be further tweaked in that direction (say by adding another copter). Walking Ballista is another card I'd like to find space for, either in the main or side. I could see, for example, -1 Cratermaker +1 Ballista in the main, with a second Cratermaker in the side.

A word on Cratermaker: I do think the card is very good, dissynergy with Painter notwithstanding. Again, it's a question of flexibility and the multiple roles in can play within the deck. It's like a Manic Vandal/Walking Ballista split card that also happens to be a 2/2 for 2. The impact of not being able to blow up artifacts with a Painter in play doesn't come up that often, and when it does there are almost always ways of playing around it. For instance, you can use your blast effects instead, or weld out Painter in order to be able to destroy an artifact and then weld Painter back in again. The only time neither of those are an option is when your opponent has a Chalice on 1 and you have a Painter but no welder in play. These situations are fairly easy to mitigate with careful sequencing—if Chalice is a threat, don't play your Painter out prematurely. Failing that, Chalice decks mostly win with creatures on the ground (Thought-Knot Seer, Goblin Rabblemaster, Knight of the Reliquary) and you can chump with Painter to unlock your Cratermaker.

4 Lotus Petal
4 Grindstone
2 Smuggler’s Copter
1 Ensnaring Bridge

4 Pyroblast
3 Light up the Stage
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Blood Moon

3 Goblin Welder
1 Mother of Runes
1 Grim Lavamancer
4 Painter’s Servant
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Goblin Cratermaker
4 Imperial Recruiter
1 Magus of the Moon

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Arid Mesa
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Mountain
3 Plateau
1 Great Furnace

Sideboard
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Containment Priest
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Blood Moon
1 Engineered Explosives

[Mirrislegend]

4x Cannonist's makes Storm a bye, it also puts in major work against cantrip decks and all this phoenix nonsense.
I'm trying to gauge the strength of Canonist against Xerox decks. Most such decks are on 4 Brainstorm and 4 Ponder, with the occasional Preordain. Is that enough for Canonist to have a significant impact? If yes, is it worth Recruiting for? Is it worth siding in extra copies? I'm down to 2 Canonist maindeck and 1 SB. If it takes a mere 8 cantrips for Canonist to severely rattle someone's gameplan then I'd definitely find space for a 3rd MD and keep a 4th in the SB that comes in vs Xerox, in addition to Storm and the like.
Miracles has at least 4 more cantrips/draw spells on top of those usual 8, so it is pretty clear that Canonist will do a lot of work there.

[Megadeus]

I'm trying to gauge the strength of Canonist against Xerox decks. Most such decks are on 4 Brainstorm and 4 Ponder, with the occasional Preordain. Is that enough for Canonist to have a significant impact? If yes, is it worth Recruiting for? Is it worth siding in extra copies? I'm down to 2 Canonist maindeck and 1 SB. If it takes a mere 8 cantrips for Canonist to severely rattle someone's gameplan then I'd definitely find space for a 3rd MD and keep a 4th in the SB that comes in vs Xerox, in addition to Storm and the like.
Miracles has at least 4 more cantrips/draw spells on top of those usual 8, so it is pretty clear that Canonist will do a lot of work there.
Don't forget against snapcaster it's really good too

[Mirrislegend]

Don't forget against snapcaster it's really good too
That's pretty spicy. Snapcaster is almost exclusively in Xerox decks. So that brings the total number of cards hit by Canonist in any given Xerox deck from 8 to 10-12 (with Miracles now at 14-16). Though UR Xerox tends to skip Snapcaster.

[colo]

In my experience, the actual value of Ethersworn Canonist primarily depends on two things: First, if the opponent has removal for it right away (as opposed to having to dig for it, which *will* take time - I can't tell how many times I've heard myself saying something along the lines of "you can't cast that, you already $cantripped this turn" while pointing at the Canonist on board), and second, if they've actually played against the card already, and know how much it will grind their gears. It's stellar or close-to-stellar against any deck that has some kind of spell-based setup phase, that culminates in a big payoff, because it can delay that payoff by so much. If your hand enables a T2 Canonist, that alone puts it in very solid "blind keep" territory in my book. If you can go on to protect it - celebrate!

[schweinefettmann]

The biggest problem i've had with canonist is that my opponents always have the exact right answer for it every single time. a K.command really sets us back to 0-land pretty quick, and it has 2 modes that can hit canonist. the really irritating thing about K.command is that it's not blue without a painter in play, so only spellskite works against it. Maybe i'm just too impatient and end up jamming them in before i'm ready, and i can definitely appreciate that i'm not nearly as good a painter as y'all are (and definitely can't hold a bristle up against mr keller or even bob ross).

Then again, i just re-read the post, and it's specifically about xerox decks. I'm not 100% familiar with these, but they're basically a family of deck archetypes that cheat on lands, right? so any deck using from say 10-19 lands main deck? I think in those cases, i can see canonist being extremely good, since they're not going to be able to both guarantee land-drop AND find removal. It would also be a pain against high tide, since it's both a clock and a hoser.

oh and sulfur elemental is a BOSS (as in when it's relevant). I'm guessing my opponent had no idea what was going on when i landed painter naming white, but it nukes pretty much all token strategies (outside of marit lage), and to an extent, DnT.

Just curious, outside of hosing swords by naming whatever colour protection that sword gives, is there any other reason to name another colour outside of blue or white? Also, i think there's probably a reasonable argument to up the number of moms here. i think a split of 3 welders and 3-4 moms might even be appropriate. In my somewhat limited experience, i've found that protecting my board is a heck of a lot harder to do than the master painters make it look. Just having silver bullet answers means that we're significantly more likely to lock the game down (a bit), but it also means that if they get removed, we're pretty boned. Most of the time, each plow or push or edict or k.command they point at us can be flashed back again, so we're dealing with what i'd consider to be a heck of a lot. More moms means we can blank more of their removal. a mom + canonist means they can only chuck one at us every turn. but if they manage to sword our one-of mom early enough, it's a pretty tough hill to climb from there.

Or what do you guys think? I was tempted to even put in a cheeky one-of Akroma's Memorial as a copter-pitch target to weld into play (i get that it's not good!).

[Mirrislegend]

The biggest problem i've had with canonist is that my opponents always have the exact right answer for it every single time. a K.command really sets us back to 0-land pretty quick, and it has 2 modes that can hit canonist. the really irritating thing about K.command is that it's not blue without a painter in play, so only spellskite works against it. Maybe i'm just too impatient and end up jamming them in before i'm ready, and i can definitely appreciate that i'm not nearly as good a painter as y'all are (and definitely can't hold a bristle up against mr keller or even bob ross).

Then again, i just re-read the post, and it's specifically about xerox decks. I'm not 100% familiar with these, but they're basically a family of deck archetypes that cheat on lands, right? so any deck using from say 10-19 lands main deck? I think in those cases, i can see canonist being extremely good, since they're not going to be able to both guarantee land-drop AND find removal. It would also be a pain against high tide, since it's both a clock and a hoser.

oh and sulfur elemental is a BOSS (as in when it's relevant). I'm guessing my opponent had no idea what was going on when i landed painter naming white, but it nukes pretty much all token strategies (outside of marit lage), and to an extent, DnT.

Just curious, outside of hosing swords by naming whatever colour protection that sword gives, is there any other reason to name another colour outside of blue or white? Also, i think there's probably a reasonable argument to up the number of moms here. i think a split of 3 welders and 3-4 moms might even be appropriate. In my somewhat limited experience, i've found that protecting my board is a heck of a lot harder to do than the master painters make it look. Just having silver bullet answers means that we're significantly more likely to lock the game down (a bit), but it also means that if they get removed, we're pretty boned. Most of the time, each plow or push or edict or k.command they point at us can be flashed back again, so we're dealing with what i'd consider to be a heck of a lot. More moms means we can blank more of their removal. a mom + canonist means they can only chuck one at us every turn. but if they manage to sword our one-of mom early enough, it's a pretty tough hill to climb from there.

Or what do you guys think? I was tempted to even put in a cheeky one-of Akroma's Memorial as a copter-pitch target to weld into play (i get that it's not good!).

Xerox decks are the decks that "cheat on lands", as you put it, due to playing many cantrips.

I've found myself naming odd colors with Painter when I don't want to risk enabling my opponent's Force of Wills. However, this is a fairly narrow situation. I need to be fairly close to Grindstoning for the win, such that their counterspelling effects are my primary hurdle and Blasts can handle those without Painter naming Blue.

More Mom could be strong, but it definitely needs testing first. I'm not sure about my 1x Mother of Runes yet!

If you want to include Welder spice, I think Sundering Titan is probably the best bet.

[drude1]

So I've been doing quite a bit of testing as I'm going to go play in the LaL tourney next weekend. I've been running with 3 x tutors, 3 x recruiters, 3x light up the stage, 2 x copters and 3 x moms and have really liked this configuration. However, do to limited space I am only running 1 bridge in the main, 1 canonist and 4 blasts. For people on the mom bandwagon what do you think would be best in the board, a second bridge or a peacekeeper? Benefit of bridge is you can weld it and you can get it with tutor. Benefit of peacekeeper is you can recruit it and pepper it with Mom, but you do have to pay 1W every turn.

Also, for SB I have a few other open slots. What do you guys think?

Slot 1: second canonist (down to 1 main) or 3sphere?

Slot 2-3: 2 x of dead/gone, abrade, pyrite spellbomb (like these cause they are tuterable and weldable and cantrip), or sudden shock?

3 more slots:. Things I'm considering...

Pithing needle/revoker
Jitte
2nd blood moon/magus (have 1 main and 1 SB for sure)
Board sweep like engineered plague (I'm splashing black), toxic deluge, pyroclasm, etc.
Sphere of law (would probably run this or jitte in 1 slot)
Second Karn (1 in SB now)
Palace jailer (although I'm running 2 x chains of meph in board)
Slaughter games/lost legacy (good for combo or as a graveyard hate piece for things like loam, phoenix, etc)
More blasts?

Current slots are:
1 x Karn
1 x containment priest
1 x blood moon
1 x e.e
2 x chains
2 x surgical
1 x canonist vs 3 sphere
1 x bridge vs peacekeeper
2 x spot removal (see above)
1 x jitte vs sphere of law (maybe?)
2 other slots

I do have a nihil spellbomb main.

Open to suggestions.


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[8bit9mm]

I'm curious as to what your manabase looks like if you're running 3x Mothers.