[Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

[Mirrislegend]

So I've been doing quite a bit of testing as I'm going to go play in the LaL tourney next weekend. LaL = Leave a Legacy? Isn't that in New England? Aren't you in the Midwest?


I've been running with 3 x tutors, 3 x recruiters, 3x light up the stage, 2 x copters and 3 x moms and have really liked this configuration. However, do to limited space I am only running 1 bridge in the main, 1 canonist and 4 blasts. For people on the mom bandwagon what do you think would be best in the board, a second bridge or a peacekeeper? Benefit of bridge is you can weld it and you can get it with tutor. Benefit of peacekeeper is you can recruit it and pepper it with Mom, but you do have to pay 1W every turn. Both have 3 tutors available, both have 3 protection creatures. Not having to pay mana every turn for Bridge is a big reason to skip Peacekeeper. I think the most important item is to ask yourself WHY you're playing the card. For example, I'm playing Bridge to stop Death's Shadow, Gurmag Angler, Gristlebrand, Emrakul, Marit Lage, etc and hopefully flipped Delver and TNN. I have no expectations of Bridge stopping Baleful Strix, Snapcaster Mage, Thalia, etc. If you want to be stopping all attackers, go with Peacekeeper. If you don't need 1 card to hold back all armies, Bridge's lack of upkeep makes it much better than Peacekeeper IMO. Not having to pay mana every turn for Bridge is a big reason to skip Peacekeeper.


Slot 1: second canonist (down to 1 main) or 3sphere? 3Sphere is good but hurts us just as much as it hurts them. Canonist is effectively asymmetrical (except for Light Up the Stage). So I vote for Canonist.[/quote]


Slot 2-3: 2 x of dead/gone, abrade, pyrite spellbomb (like these cause they are tuterable and weldable and cantrip), or sudden shock? No Pyroclasm? I don't think that's correct. But that's up to you. Among the options that you presented, at least 1 Abrade. It is just so good. Other than that, go with your preference.


3 more slots:. Things I'm considering...

Pithing needle/revoker
Jitte
2nd blood moon/magus (have 1 main and 1 SB for sure)
Board sweep like engineered plague (I'm splashing black), toxic deluge, pyroclasm, etc.
Sphere of law (would probably run this or jitte in 1 slot)
Second Karn (1 in SB now)
Palace jailer (although I'm running 2 x chains of meph in board)
Slaughter games/lost legacy (good for combo or as a graveyard hate piece for things like loam, phoenix, etc)
More blasts?

Current slots are:
1 x Karn
1 x containment priest
1 x blood moon
1 x e.e
2 x chains
2 x surgical
1 x canonist vs 3 sphere
1 x bridge vs peacekeeper
2 x spot removal (see above)
1 x jitte vs sphere of law (maybe?)
2 other slots

I do have a nihil spellbomb main.

Why Sphere of Law over Warmth? I think between 3x Mom and 3x Welder your Painters should be safer than anyone else's! Also, at 4cmc, Sphere seems slow. ...Now I need to find a Warmth and a SB slot for it.
What matchups is Jitte for, other than Burn?
Slaughter Games / Lost Legacy are good, but slow and color intensive.
I would say yes to Blasts in the SB.

[drude1]

LaL = Leave a Legacy? Isn't that in New England? Aren't you in the Midwest?

Yeah, but we will be in Boston for a vacation with the family. Thought it would be a good opportunity to meet the legend Jerry Mee :tongue:

Both have 3 tutors available, both have 3 protection creatures. Not having to pay mana every turn for Bridge is a big reason to skip Peacekeeper. I think the most important item is to ask yourself WHY you're playing the card. For example, I'm playing Bridge to stop Death's Shadow, Gurmag Angler, Gristlebrand, Emrakul, Marit Lage, etc and hopefully flipped Delver and TNN. I have no expectations of Bridge stopping Baleful Strix, Snapcaster Mage, Thalia, etc. If you want to be stopping all attackers, go with Peacekeeper. If you don't need 1 card to hold back all armies, Bridge's lack of upkeep makes it much better than Peacekeeper IMO. Not having to pay mana every turn for Bridge is a big reason to skip Peacekeeper.

Yeah, Peacekeeper seems fragile. It just that with one of each you have 6 tutors to find that effect, not just 3. Still, there is a lot of creature removal floating around these days. I tend to agree with you on this one.

3Sphere is good but hurts us just as much as it hurts them. Canonist is effectively asymmetrical (except for Light Up the Stage). So I vote for Canonist.

For the most part I agree. Again though, lot's of creature removal floating around. 3sphere would be good against low-to-the-ground cantrip decks like burn or U/R delver. Vote's not in on this one yet

No Pyroclasm? I don't think that's correct. But that's up to you. Among the options that you presented, at least 1 Abrade. It is just so good. Other than that, go with your preference.

So I do have a cratermaker and 2 x Daretti in the main for artifact (and creature) removal already, so the artifact removal isn't quite as important on abrade. I like dead/gone because it bounces things like Marit Lage tokens or other fatties (reanimator, etc). I like pyrite because of its recursive ability with welder. Pyroclasm is obviously good as well, but with so many 1 and 2 toughness creatures myself, I don't love it. I am splashing black so could play engineered plague or deluge (same problem) or dread of night (although that kills my own moms). I don't really want to have to play a BB spell like marsh casualties but it's a possibility as well.

Why Sphere of Law over Warmth? I think between 3x Mom and 3x Welder your Painters should be safer than anyone else's! Also, at 4cmc, Sphere seems slow. ...Now I need to find a Warmth and a SB slot for it.
What matchups is Jitte for, other than Burn?

Oh, sphere is oodles better than warmth due to goblins (and goblin tokens) and young pyromancer. With our mana acceleration, sphere is easily a turn 3 play.
Jitte would be good against other creature decks primarily, particularly death & taxes.

Slaughter Games / Lost Legacy are good, but slow and color intensive. Agree, although where I want this card is against other slow decks mostly, such as miracles and eldrazi post. If you can get Ulamog out of their deck, eldrazi post gets a lot easier.

I would say yes to Blasts in the SB.[/QUOTE]

If I could play 18 SB instead of 15, it would likely be 3 more blasts. As is, it's hard to find room. However, after this tourney I don't know that I would keep playing the chains. Just need 2 chains for this tourney, for obvious reasons (if you are a fan of the podcast).

[Mirrislegend]

Well I'll be there too! We'll have to meet up!

[Kap'n Cook]

So I've been slowly catching back up with the thread, figured I'd give some general opinions. For starters, light up the stage reminds me a lot of faithless looting. I know one is pure advantage vs discard/disadvantage but the function is similar, churn through the deck. I am just wondering if it is possible to fit and worth it. If we chop tutor, the single blood moon and bridge lose a lot of value. If you chop copter, you remove the best way to deal damage. I think you can fit it in, but I would probably go for more of a goodstuff type build so that you are always getting good value. Probably play some bolts as reach/removal and some more lavamancers. Basically a choose what axis you want to fight on. The Canonists and blasts are more of a stack based deck and aims to have serious game against fast combo and show and tell.

Anyways, I think all of that goes out the window because we'll have to reimagine the deck to work around this:

Karn, the Great Creator 4

Legendary Planeswalker - Karn

Activated abilities of artifacts your opponents control can't be activated.

[+1]: Until your next turn, up to one target noncreature artifact becomes an artifact creature with power and toughness each equal to its converted mana cost.

[-2]: You may choose an artifact card you own from outside the game or in exile, reveal that card and add it to your hand.

[5]




His static hits LED, Petal, Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond, Expedition Map, Vial, All Equipment, Ballista, Explosives etc.

His plus one kills chalice, unequips equipment (right?) and can turn needle to a creature if we have something like ballista out. Also can crew copter without a creature and make Grindstone part of the beatdown haha

The -2 gets back artifacts from Surgical, Swords to Plowshares, Council's Judgement, Throught-Knot and whatever else and can also Burning Wish artifacts from the board.


Lattice in the board could be a turn 3 win, run a boarded helm with Leylines, side out the 4th grindstone type of shit. Also value bridges/ee's/needles/crypt etc


Probably the most insane walker we've ever had access to. May God have mercy on Vintage

[drude1]

So I've been slowly catching back up with the thread, figured I'd give some general opinions. For starters, light up the stage reminds me a lot of faithless looting. I know one is pure advantage vs discard/disadvantage but the function is similar, churn through the deck. I am just wondering if it is possible to fit and worth it. If we chop tutor, the single blood moon and bridge lose a lot of value. If you chop copter, you remove the best way to deal damage. I think you can fit it in, but I would probably go for more of a goodstuff type build so that you are always getting good value. Probably play some bolts as reach/removal and some more lavamancers. Basically a choose what axis you want to fight on. The Canonists and blasts are more of a stack based deck and aims to have serious game against fast combo and show and tell.

Anyways, I think all of that goes out the window because we'll have to reimagine the deck to work around this:

Karn, the Great Creator 4

Legendary Planeswalker - Karn

Activated abilities of artifacts your opponents control can't be activated.

[+1]: Until your next turn, up to one target noncreature artifact becomes an artifact creature with power and toughness each equal to its converted mana cost.

[-2]: You may choose an artifact card you own from outside the game or in exile, reveal that card and add it to your hand.

[5]




His static hits LED, Petal, Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond, Expedition Map, Vial, All Equipment, Ballista, Explosives etc.

His plus one kills chalice, unequips equipment (right?) and can turn needle to a creature if we have something like ballista out. Also can crew copter without a creature and make Grindstone part of the beatdown haha

The -2 gets back artifacts from Surgical, Swords to Plowshares, Council's Judgement, Throught-Knot and whatever else and can also Burning Wish artifacts from the board.


Lattice in the board could be a turn 3 win, run a boarded helm with Leylines, side out the 4th grindstone type of shit. Also value bridges/ee's/needles/crypt etc


Probably the most insane walker we've ever had access to. May God have mercy on VintageTotally agree with Jack on the new Karn. Already testing new lists. Although what is lattice?

4-0'd my local FNM tonight beating Stryfo's dack fayden list 2-0, U/R delver 2-0, U/B Shadow 2-0 and that u/r storm list 2-1. Deck ran hot. 3 x mom and 3 x welder is hard for decks to deal with. Playing R/w/b with 20 land, 3 petal and 2 mox opal. Black is for 2 Daretti and nihil spellbomb main and a few different cards main.
Regarding light up the stage, I still think it's good. I'm really concentrating on getting the combo and protecting the combo ASAP. I will admit I tend to cut a couple of them against fast decks, but they are great against control decks or discard decks. I would definitely play them in a deck with the new Karn since we otherwise only have copter to find the Karn otherwise. I do still definitely like copter and its stock goes up more with the new Karn.

Anyway, playing in the LaL tourney this weekend. Jack, you on the east coast these days?

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[schweinefettmann]

Totally agree with Jack on the new Karn. Already testing new lists. Although what is lattice?

4-0'd my local FNM tonight beating Stryfo's dack fayden list 2-0, U/R delver 2-0, U/B Shadow 2-0 and that u/r storm list 2-1. Deck ran hot. 3 x mom and 3 x welder is hard for decks to deal with. Playing R/w/b with 20 land, 3 petal and 2 mox opal. Black is for 2 Daretti and nihil spellbomb main and a few different cards main.
Regarding light up the stage, I still think it's good. I'm really concentrating on getting the combo and protecting the combo ASAP. I will admit I tend to cut a couple of them against fast decks, but they are great against control decks or discard decks. I would definitely play them in a deck with the new Karn since we otherwise only have copter to find the Karn otherwise. I do still definitely like copter and its stock goes up more with the new Karn.

Anyway, playing in the LaL tourney this weekend. Jack, you on the east coast these days?

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

mycosynth lattice - like painter, but instead of colours, makes everything artefacts. so it deactivates moms and stone-forges.

Yea, i think moms are very good; i'd be tempted to find space for a fourth, since she can protect welders and painters. I've been kinda happy with how hannas custody has been for me though, but turning off being able to blow up opposing equipment has been problematic. I think i had a mirran crusader + jitte end my game quicker than i could handle it.

just curious, what else did you run that needed black outside of nihil spell bomb?

[jasper]

mycosynth lattice - like painter, but instead of colours, makes everything artefacts. so it deactivates moms and stone-forges.

Yea, i think moms are very good; i'd be tempted to find space for a fourth, since she can protect welders and painters. I've been kinda happy with how hannas custody has been for me though, but turning off being able to blow up opposing equipment has been problematic. I think i had a mirran crusader + jitte end my game quicker than i could handle it.

just curious, what else did you run that needed black outside of nihil spell bomb?

The point being, though, that it deactivates your opponent's lands, hence it being a hard lock that prevents your opponents from casting more spells assuming they don't already have mana open and an answer to either Karn or Lattice in hand, or enough of a board presence to get rid of your Karn. It's pretty cute in that it's a two card combo where the good half fetches the otherwise terrible half out of your sideboard. I mean, 10 mana is quite a bit, so I'd be tempted to play something like Grim Monolith to power it out if that were my main plan, but in general it could be a neat little plan B that takes very little added investment if you're already playing Karn.

In general I think I like Karn quite a bit. 4 mana is and remains 'not nothing', but being 4 colourless helps for obvious reasons, and the fact that his +1 crews the Copter along with killing Chalice is decent. Anyone know if it becomes a 2/2 or a 3/3? I lazily assume the former but also haven't thought about it at any great length.

I wonder if it'll allow/push the deck to move away from Enlightened Tutor? Although not finding Blood Moon is a strike against that, of course. There's some degree of anti-synergy between wanting silver bullets in the board to fetch with Karn and wanting silver bullets in the main to find with Enlightened Tutor.

I'm also not sure I agree that it makes me want to play more LutS to find Karn, because I think the Copter synergy makes me want to play more copters and Karn has the potential to find both halves of the combo. Of course, there's the tension between wanting to play 4 maindeck copies of your combo and having them available to wish for, and it's possible that playing 4 of both in the maindeck is still optimal, but I can certainly see testing 3 of each with one in the board to wish for, if you have enough Karns—say, 3 (or even 4? might be a little greedy).

[pettdan]

In general I think I like Karn quite a bit. 4 mana is and remains 'not nothing', but being 4 colourless helps for obvious reasons, and the fact that his +1 crews the Copter along with killing Chalice is decent. Anyone know if it becomes a 2/2 or a 3/3? I lazily assume the former but also haven't thought about it at any great length.


Not sure what you refer to in your last question, if Karn targets a Chalice it becomes a 0/0 (clearly you were aware of this though), probably you wonder about what happens if Karn targets a Copter - it should become a 2/2.

[hermit_druid]

The point being, though, that it deactivates your opponent's lands, hence it being a hard lock that prevents your opponents from casting more spells assuming they don't already have mana open and an answer to either Karn or Lattice in hand, or enough of a board presence to get rid of your Karn. It's pretty cute in that it's a two card combo where the good half fetches the otherwise terrible half out of your sideboard. I mean, 10 mana is quite a bit, so I'd be tempted to play something like Grim Monolith to power it out if that were my main plan, but in general it could be a neat little plan B that takes very little added investment if you're already playing Karn.

In general I think I like Karn quite a bit. 4 mana is and remains 'not nothing', but being 4 colourless helps for obvious reasons, and the fact that his +1 crews the Copter along with killing Chalice is decent. Anyone know if it becomes a 2/2 or a 3/3? I lazily assume the former but also haven't thought about it at any great length.

I wonder if it'll allow/push the deck to move away from Enlightened Tutor? Although not finding Blood Moon is a strike against that, of course. There's some degree of anti-synergy between wanting silver bullets in the board to fetch with Karn and wanting silver bullets in the main to find with Enlightened Tutor.

I'm also not sure I agree that it makes me want to play more LutS to find Karn, because I think the Copter synergy makes me want to play more copters and Karn has the potential to find both halves of the combo. Of course, there's the tension between wanting to play 4 maindeck copies of your combo and having them available to wish for, and it's possible that playing 4 of both in the maindeck is still optimal, but I can certainly see testing 3 of each with one in the board to wish for, if you have enough Karns—say, 3 (or even 4? might be a little greedy).

Have you thought about playing Null Rod?

[Mirrislegend]

Have you thought about playing Null Rod?

:rolleyes: Dad jokes...

[Kap'n Cook]

Totally agree with Jack on the new Karn. Already testing new lists. Although what is lattice?

4-0'd my local FNM tonight beating Stryfo's dack fayden list 2-0, U/R delver 2-0, U/B Shadow 2-0 and that u/r storm list 2-1. Deck ran hot. 3 x mom and 3 x welder is hard for decks to deal with. Playing R/w/b with 20 land, 3 petal and 2 mox opal. Black is for 2 Daretti and nihil spellbomb main and a few different cards main.
Regarding light up the stage, I still think it's good. I'm really concentrating on getting the combo and protecting the combo ASAP. I will admit I tend to cut a couple of them against fast decks, but they are great against control decks or discard decks. I would definitely play them in a deck with the new Karn since we otherwise only have copter to find the Karn otherwise. I do still definitely like copter and its stock goes up more with the new Karn.

Anyway, playing in the LaL tourney this weekend. Jack, you on the east coast these days?

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Yup I'm around DC for the time being. I've been playing a lot of Old School recently in lieu of legacy. New Karn will probably change that as there will be so many things to test and try out

[drude1]

Yup I'm around DC for the time being. I've been playing a lot of Old School recently in lieu of legacy. New Karn will probably change that as there will be so many things to test and try out

So are you going to make the drive to play in the Leaving a Legacy tourney this weekend?


Sounds like a couple of us will be there. And I'm coming from Minneapolis, so no excuses!

[Michael Keller]

Where's that at?

[Mirrislegend]

Where's that at?
All the details:
https://www.facebook.com/events/531-main-st-acton-ma-01720-3940-united-states/gaming-etc-presents-the-leaving-a-legacy-2k-5k/385666705248923/

[sroncor1]

Wow, lots has happened since I was away.

To address the beat down that Hollywood mentioned, that comes form the really early days of the deck. It was when Goblins and Lackey were tier 1. We routinely played 3 Figure of Destiny and the card was a house. That backed up by Magus of the Moon gave us an amazing beat down approach. Some early builds also had equipment in the maindeck. If memory serves me correctly, SoLS was the go to piece for us. Now this was over 7-8 years ago and by 2012 the creatures in legacy had taken such a leap forward that first turn Lackey wasn't very good and we transitioned to more Blood Moons main and this transitioned to the more combo/answer focus of the subsequent E tutor lists. I know I have some of these deck lists, but I also imagine they are on the original thread of Painter also.

I doubt I will ever be coming back to competitive legacy as the events and players in general just feel so brutal, but I still love the cards and the shitty 1/1 tutor with the white boarder we get to play. I had a great time last year reworking the deck and getting it back to respectability and reworking teh primer for this badboy. Its in that vein I doubt I will ever walk away form Painter.

With that said, the new Karn, has me more excited to brew than I was last year when I was working through the Smuggler's Copter/Lavaman/other dudes approach that ultimately lead to this thread. The new Karn seems to open up design and deck building on a level that we previously never had. On the surface we now have a wish for artifacts. Its a one sided null rod making our moon effects stronger against lands and storm combo. stops Aether Vial bull shit, while finally making Jitte and Batterskull fairly easy to combat. Its plus ability helps combat the STP, Snap, STP axis while also basically invalidating Surgical as a board strategy against us. He also is a swiss army knife approach to beating Chalice, while allowing the deck so many way to answer Pithing Needle.

I spoke with Jack yesterday and a bit this morning and the wish board is something that I want to really test moving forward. Answers like Bridge, Duplicant, Metamorph, Wurm Coil, Spellbomb, Bubble Matrix, Serrated Arrows, Helm, and Lattice are all cards that excel in some match ups but were sometimes to clunky to use in a singleton manner with only E tutor to find them. Karn's ability to tutor and still require an answer from the opponent is that I think will really help the deck. Much like Copter allowed us to attack Planeswalkers and the life total in ways previously lacking for us, Karn may open up new lines of play providing increased utility and reach for the deck while helping to address some of our nightmare match ups.

I already bought three and can not wait to start testing. Around playing old school that is.

Free Ned Leeds, Fuck Mark Rosewater,

Seth

[Michael Keller]

Wonder if this clears the way for Ring of Ma’ruf!

[Mirrislegend]

I'm hyped for Karn too, but I don't have the same grasp on this deck as everyone else, so I'm not sure how much help I'll be with brewing. I'll leave that to the gurus.

I'm going to my first big event with Strawberry Shortcake this weekend. I'm pretty happy with my list but I'm open to feedback and definitely need some input:

4 Painter's Servant
4 Imperial Recruiter
3 Goblin Welder
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Goblin Cratermaker
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Mother of Runes

4 Grindstone
4 Lotus Petal
3 Smuggler's Copter
1 Ensnaring Bridge

1 Blood Moon

3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast

3 Light Up the Stage

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Arid Mesa
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Plateau
3 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Great Furnace

SB:
4 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroclasm
1 Manic Vandal
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Containment Priest
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Hanna's Custody


Deck construction choices:

I'm purposefully low on Blood Moon effects. I think between B2B in Miracles and Dragon Stompy's recent success, the format has adapted such that Blood Moon is not impactful outside of target matchups. That having been said, the basic Plains allows me to pivot to the Blood Moon plan with ease.
Cratermaker maindeck over Manic Vandal for utility and an expectation of Delver decks.
Walking Ballista has never been good for me. It is durdly in the early game and I have yet to hit a situation in the late game where the pain from Ancient Tomb has been worth the Ballista buffs.


I need feedback on:

Engineered Explosives: My fear of Chalice grows the more I play this deck. Without EE, I will never feel safe from the Chalice boogeyman. However, EE has been otherwise weak in my experience (which is pretty minimal tbh). Should I play EE? What should I cut for it?
Sulfur Elemental: Sure, its good against D&T, but hitting those Monastery Mentor tokes from Miracles is the real deal. Is it worth trying to wedge it in when it has a fairly narrow use and can't be tutored for? If yes, where do I fit it?
Pyroblast/REB: Does the split matter? Meddling Mage hasn't been a Legacy staple in years, but I'm not sure if I'm missing something else.
Walking Ballista: I'm open to playing Ballista if people have strong arguments for it. It's very possible I've just been playing it wrong.


Other feedback welcome!

[crowe_1]

With regard to REB/Pyro, the split is not just for Meddling Mage. Cabal Therapy and Surgical Extraction are pretty common, and splitting reduces the odds of getting blown out by them. The only reason not to split is if you’re leaning on Ensnaring Bridge, where you can randomly burn Pyro but not REB.

[schweinefettmann]

Also depending on what you’re expecting, moms can be amazing. I might try to convince you to go 2-3 main deck.

So based off that, if you’re likely to meet multiple problematic artifacts, it might be worth going with cratermaker and one other.

But most importantly, test the deck and feel what it wants to do, and tweak dependent upon how you want it to play. My shortcake has now gone the route of heavy stompy with the white only for canonist and 4 moms. But that fits me, and I wouldn’t imagine that everyone would like that either!

Like all punishing (as in hard to play) decks, shortcake rewards practice.

Disclaimer - I’m far from even an ok shortcake player! So keep my comments with a massive dose of salt.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mirrislegend]

With regard to REB/Pyro, the split is not just for Meddling Mage. Cabal Therapy and Surgical Extraction are pretty common, and splitting reduces the odds of getting blown out by them.Ah, that's what I was looking for!


The only reason not to split is if you’re leaning on Ensnaring Bridge, where you can randomly burn Pyro but not REB.Daaaaaamn that's a savage play that I didn't think of. I'll have to consider it.


Also depending on what you’re expecting, moms can be amazing. I might try to convince you to go 2-3 main deck.

So based off that, if you’re likely to meet multiple problematic artifacts, it might be worth going with cratermaker and one other.I'm definitely open to a second Mom. Probably in the Magus of the Moon slot? Moon is effective against 4 out of the top 16 decks; 2 of which are heavy red, one is light red but heavy on creature removal, and the third can actually benefit from Moon (Dark Depths comes into play with zero counters with Blood Moon effect in play. If they kill Blood Moon effect, insta-Marit-Lage).

I'm playing Cratermaker main and Vandal in the SB. I think that's sufficient for the most part. But I'm not sure it will beat Chalice decks. Also, I want Hanna's Custody for Grixis Control, but many versions play a Pithing Needle in the SB. When Custody is in play (and Custody is for the Grixis Control matchup), EE answers Needle but Cratermaker and Vandal do not. Where would you fit EE in this 75?

[sroncor1]

@Hollywood- HAHA. I mean the card is sick, and lops are fun. What is your current list. As I go back to the drawing board so to speak, I know I will be missing some things while I test over the next month. Love to see what you have been tinkering with. To be fair I don't think I have picked up my painter cards since you saw me at Eternal Weekend. But this new Karn has really got me thinking that things could be fun again.

REB/Pyro- Splitting is less important than utility. To be current it should be 4 Pyroblast first then add in REB. I like beta and alpha REB more so I make the suboptimal play and use them preferentially. But there are enough corner cases that the ability for pyro to target a non blue spell or permanent is relevant that it is the "correct" play to run four.

My advice for getting better with the list is take a stock list and play it for a month. I would recommend making no changes to the maindeck during that time. I caution against changes the sideboard also, but I do understand local metas are very weird and you may just need a few cards to address expected decks in smaller events and metas. Understand that you will likely lose a lot and that the most important outcome of any match is not if you won or lost, but evaluating the sequencing and why specific plays allowed you to win or lose. Due to magic being played by likely two bad players, sometimes your opponents punts are just worse than yours and they mask the true details of a match up. Ultimately the hardest part is the mulligan decision. And that only comes through practice and reps. It is only when you can sequence multiple lines of play with your opener for the first 3-4 turns will you feel comfortable with it. and that just takes time and practice and we still fuck it up.

My hope is to have a new deck list up in the next two weeks. I will start to test the new Karn lists this weekend. I need to do another review of the DTB with a deep dive or available wish targets first and that may take some time as I have to figure out what is available, if and how it can help us, then give it a try. also complicating things is the new mulligan rule which could be a true gamechanger.

Seth

[Michael Keller]

My current list changes everyday. One minute I'll try one thing, the next I'll try another. I can never settle on a 75 in any format lol.

[Davek]

Well, i know nothing about this deck (I used to be a 12-post player before SDT got banned) but i like playing versatile and unconventional decks, so this seems a deck i may really enjoy. Would it be possible to have a solid list to test a bit just to see how it goes for me? Thank you!

[schweinefettmann]

Well, i know nothing about this deck (I used to be a 12-post player before SDT got banned) but i like playing versatile and unconventional decks, so this seems a deck i may really enjoy. Would it be possible to have a solid list to test a bit just to see how it goes for me? Thank you!

I would probably go with mr keller's list he took to the SCG tournament a month or so back. It's a good list that does what strawberry shortcake is designed to do, basically. I think you'll learn a lot about how and which tutors to fire off, for which targets, and how to protect your pieces, and so on. One piece of advice though, the deck can be very unforgiving, so if you don't succeed, judge the deck not by how it performs, per se, but more on its potential (or at least feel).

I've recently been put back onto a mono-red list that has more prison elements.. called 'daretti spaghetti' just to let me blow off some steam. It's been interesting to play, but the best part is just blowing up all the lands and locking my opponents out of the game.

[sroncor1]

I would actually argue that Hollywood's list is the wrong place for a newer player to start. I will not argue with his success with the deck, but Hollywood has been playing Painter for over a decade. The various singletons and new tech he used worked well for him, but he also probably is in the top ten players in the world with Painter in regards to reps with the deck and understanding its interactions. For newer players I think simplicity and redundancy throughout the deck is the best way to learn it. The various singletons his version plays would be a nightmare for an inexperienced player on the deck. I say all this in a world where it is possibly that Hollywood's shift may be the eventual correct way to go, or the new Karn provides a completely different approach for us.

My two cents. But I would suggest something more straight forward when learning the deck. But no matter which you choose, it is likely that you will lose a lot, and that is ok. Without cantrips, the opening keep is unforgiving and it takes a while to understand how to play to your outs in the deck.

Seth

[Michael Keller]

To be fair, that list I played was also speculative. I think there were a lot of mistakes even I made in building the deck because I tried integrating Light up the Stage into it. I don't know if the Shortcake version is the right path for it, but I know if I were playing Mono Red it would be an auto-include.

[Mirrislegend]

To be fair, that list I played was also speculative. I think there were a lot of mistakes even I made in building the deck because I tried integrating Light up the Stage into it. I don't know if the Shortcake version is the right path for it, but I know if I were playing Mono Red it would be an auto-include.

Maybe its because I'm still new to Shortcake, but I'm loving LUtS. Its not much of a nonbo with Canonist if you use it to make land drops and threaten your opponent with Blasts. Plus, if you don't need the tempo, you can just slam spells off of LUtS for the obvious reason of not wasting them; you advance your board state without providing much information about your hand contents (as a direct result, LUtS hits that you chose NOT to cast often provide more information to your opponent than you might like, so LUtS is inherently very proactive).

[sroncor1]

My statement wasn't meant to address Light up the Stage at all. Sorry for the confusion. The card has merits, just that a highly tuned or adjusted list with multiple singletons is a poor way to learn the deck due to the complexity of it.

Come May I imagine I will be slinging something like this:

4 Imperial Recruiters
4 Painter’s Servant
3 Goblin Welder
3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Lavaman
1 Walking Ballista
2 SSG
3 Karn
4 Grindstone
5 Blast effects
4 Smuggler’s Copter
3 E tutor
4 Lotus Petal
8 sol lands
2 Plateau
5 fetch lands
3 Mountains
1 Great Furnace

side:
1 EE
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Trinisphere
1 Cannonist
1 Pyrite spellbomb
1 tormods crypt
2 helm
4 leyline
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 phyrexian metamorph
1 wurmcoil engine

Some notes:
1. Yes I know it is 1 card too many. Still working on that.
2. With Karn sol lands seem better. That also makes land drops off of Light up the Stage worse. Something to think about. In general we may need to rework some of the mana to better accommodate 4 drops as shortcake has always been about the 3 drops.
3. sideboard is rough, but with plenty of utility to really leverage Karn. I can not see this not drastically changing, but I think its a reasonable starting point as it provides answers and reach to many of the top decks.
4. The Gravehate we run may change a lot. Depending on what happens with the mulligan rule, these cards could drastically change. Currently I expect the rule to go forward, and as such Leylines are just superior at that point.
5. Also moon effects are missing. They do belong. Its more about testing. Eventually they will work themselves back into the deck.


Seth

[Michael Keller]

I wonder how good Karn would be in LED builds looking to abuse his second activated ability to procure and cast larger artifacts.

[sroncor1]

Hollywood- I was talking with Jack about the place of LED in the deck. It is really interesting, especially with Welder. That may be another deck entirely at that point. Would you be thinking of using it as a 4 of?

Seth

[Michael Keller]

I'd probably use it in some kind of Mono Red build. I don't know if it has a place in the Shortcake version, but LED in more Welder-centric variations might be good. It's hard to say...I've honestly never used LED in Painter - not even the UR builds because I just never bought into it - even when Top was around.

[sroncor1]

@ Hollywood- Yeah I was never a fan even though I understand the corner cases where it was helpful. The ability to pair it with Karn and effectively have seven plus mana on turn 3 does open up some options, although I am not sure how to best abuse that. But with Welder I can see a bunch of cool lines that may be possible, but that might be a complete rebuild at this point...

Seth

[punda]

I’ve been tinkering with a version that has both welder and led.
It definitely leads to potentially quicker combo kill.
I am planning on trying faithless looting at some point.
Also petal over the opal give a turn 1 kill.
Any thoughts or ideas?

4 tombs
3 cities
4 mesa
1 wooded foothills
2 plateau
2 mountain
2 great furnace
1 plains

4 grindstone
4 led
2 mox opal
2 pyrite spell bomb
4 conjurer’s bauble

4 painters
4 goblin welder
4 auriok salvagers
4 imperial recruiter
2 walking ballista

4 pyroblast
3 enlightened tutor

[schweinefettmann]

That looks fun actually.. I like the bomber man combo.. especially since it looks like something that’d act as a diversion against the other combo!

How did that deck go? Work as intended?


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[punda]

Played 5 rounds in paper last night.

Round 1- beat Miracles 2-0
-game 1 traditional grindstone kill, ended up playing painters 2 turns in a row then recruited for a third. They ran out of answers.
-game 2 turn 1 welder turn 2 played a grind stone and led (pyroed a spell pierce). Then discarded a painter with led, grinded and welder out the stone for the painter to win.

Round 2 -beat mono red prison 2-1
-game 1 traditional grindstone win
-game 2 turn 1 chalice on when while I was holding 5 one drops.
-game 3 bomberman win

Round 3- beat d&t 2-0
- both were long grindy games where top decked LEDs got through their ports and wastelands.

Round 4- lost to UB death shadow 0-2
- mull to 5 game 1 and 6 game 2. Discard, removal and a fast clock is rough.

Round 5- lost to RB reanimater 1-2
-game 1 had a turn 2 kill in hand. They reanimated a sore of insanity turn 1 on the play.
-game 2 I won due to having both surgical and containment priest.
-game 3 I had surgical in my opener. He revealed a chancellor then reanimated turn 1.

[Mirrislegend]

How did the 4x Bomberman and 4x Conjurer's Bauble feel? That seems kinda clunky.

Faithless Looting seems perfect for your shell. Have you considered it.?

[punda]

Faithless looting is on my list to try.
Salvagers are have nice utility in the deck since they can also return grindstone crime the graveyard. Also a cc and toughness of 4 are both relevant.
The baubles at worst replace themselves. At best the draw your deck with the combo looking for a finisher. They cane be welded back into play in order to draw more cards. Also there is the fringe surgical protection.

[Mirrislegend]

Faithless looting is on my list to try.
Salvagers are have nice utility in the deck since they can also return grindstone crime the graveyard. Also a cc and toughness of 4 are both relevant.
The baubles at worst replace themselves. At best the draw your deck with the combo looking for a finisher. They cane be welded back into play in order to draw more cards. Also there is the fringe surgical protection. Salvagers CMC of 4 was my primary point there. With a cost like that, you're begging for a huge tempo loss. And drawing multiples would be even worse. Seems like 3 would be a better number, given the Imperial Recruiters...

[punda]

Salvagers CMC of 4 was my primary point there. With a cost like that, you're begging for a huge tempo loss. And drawing multiples would be even worse. Seems like 3 would be a better number, given the Imperial Recruiters...

Sorry completely missed that point. That makes totally makes sense. I’m going to try 3 in my next build. It would open a flex spot for a crypt/ee/bridge or maybe just another pyrite spell bomb.

[Michael Keller]

Played 5 rounds in paper last night.

Round 1- beat Miracles 2-0
-game 1 traditional grindstone kill, ended up playing painters 2 turns in a row then recruited for a third. They ran out of answers.
-game 2 turn 1 welder turn 2 played a grind stone and led (pyroed a spell pierce). Then discarded a painter with led, grinded and welder out the stone for the painter to win.

Round 2 -beat mono red prison 2-1
-game 1 traditional grindstone win
-game 2 turn 1 chalice on when while I was holding 5 one drops.
-game 3 bomberman win

Round 3- beat d&t 2-0
- both were long grindy games where top decked LEDs got through their ports and wastelands.

Round 4- lost to UB death shadow 0-2
- mull to 5 game 1 and 6 game 2. Discard, removal and a fast clock is rough.

Round 5- lost to RB reanimater 1-2
-game 1 had a turn 2 kill in hand. They reanimated a sore of insanity turn 1 on the play.
-game 2 I won due to having both surgical and containment priest.
-game 3 I had surgical in my opener. He revealed a chancellor then reanimated turn 1.

This is why, for me at least, Faerie Macabre has always been in most instances superior than Surgical Extraction in Painter. It's not like we're playing discard into Surgical or Wasteland a key color source into Surgical; Faerie Macabre is tutorable with Recruiter and is non-interactive. The only time it's better is when you activate Grindstone to hit Emrakul when it's flipped, but under those circumstances Crypt is usually just better because of the recursion ability with Welder and can be retrieved with Enlightened Tutor.

Consider Painter also runs Ancient Tomb, and an additional two life adds up, if just a touch.

[SDBobPlissken]

This is why, for me at least, Faerie Macabre has always been in most instances superior than Surgical Extraction in Painter. It's not like we're playing discard into Surgical or Wasteland a key color source into Surgical; Faerie Macabre is tutorable with Recruiter and is non-interactive. The only time it's better is when you activate Grindstone to hit Emrakul when it's flipped, but under those circumstances Crypt is usually just better because of the recursion ability with Welder and can be retrieved with Enlightened Tutor.

Consider Painter also runs Ancient Tomb, and an additional two life adds up, if just a touch.

While I like macabre, I think surgical is better at least for my play style. Surgical comes in for combo and UW Control. There are plenty of times where if my opponent goes turn 1 ponder I will surgical the ponder. If they didn’t shuffle and were looking forward to that next card I just messed that up for them. If they had a ponder in hand it just acted as a discard effect as well. It also gave me information on what lines of play my opponent has. These are little things that I think make surgical superior over macabre.

[drude1]

While I like macabre, I think surgical is better at least for my play style. Surgical comes in for combo and UW Control. There are plenty of times where if my opponent goes turn 1 ponder I will surgical the ponder. If they didn’t shuffle and were looking forward to that next card I just messed that up for them. If they had a ponder in hand it just acted as a discard effect as well. It also gave me information on what lines of play my opponent has. These are little things that I think make surgical superior over macabre.Yeah, I agree... But it's close. I would actually rather have macabre against reanimator specifically, but every other MU it's probably surgical, particularly against any loam decks or other combo. I do also agree though that 1 macabre would probably be good do to the fact that you can recruit it.

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[drude1]

So I ended up going to the Leaving a Legacy tourney near Boston over the weekend. Much to my dismay, I could not back up my 4-0 performance at my LGS the week before and ended at 4-4. This was the Shortcake list splashing black for Daretti and nihil in the main and Chains, e.plague and (surgical) in the S.B. Just a quick recap of the tourney...

Rnd 1 lost very quickly and very badly to sneak & show 0-2. Both games he combo'd by turn 3 with Omniscience and won handily, even with me dropping a bridge in game 1.

Rnd 2 won 2-0 against a mono blue painter/Antiquities War deck (he was later on camera). I combo'd him out pretty quickly in both games.

Rnd 3 won against pox variant 2-1

Rnd 4 won 2-0 against UB reanimator splashing green and splashing a show and tell

Rnd 5 lost 0-2 decisively against U/R delver. The match was just poorly played by me. I blew all of my blasts on early threats (countered a TNN, and destroyed a delver and a pteromander) only for him to drop 2 more threats and win while he is blowing up my painters.

Rnd 6 lost 1-2 against Miracles and literally blew a line that had me winning on the spot in the third game (still so angry with myself I don't even want to talk about it...really rookie mistake)

Rnd 7 won 2-0 against U/W deathblade.

Rnd 8 lost 1-2 again to Miracles. Just got out resourced.

Should have been 5-3 and could have been 6-2 with some tighter play.

The black splash was good when I saw it but I honestly didn't see it much. Really wish I would have seen the Chains more against the control MU's but it just didn't happen. In one game I tutored for one on turn 1 but it got countered.

Anyway, I actually don't really want to focus on this deck too much and what is really difficult right now is that I feel like we are in limbo until the next set comes out. I have been just gold-fishing some lists with the new Karn and this is really where I want to concentrate my efforts. It just sucks that all testing until May is theoretical. Having said that, this is where I'm at with the list right now...

3 x Goblin Welder
3 x Mother of Runes (p.s. this was an all-star for me all day at the LaL)
2 x Ethersworn Canonist
1 x Goblin Cratermaker
4 x Painter's Servant
3 x Imperial Recruiter (I know, some still cringe at this, but I typically don't want to see more than 1 in a game)
3 x Grindstone (trying 1 in SB)
3 x Enlightened tutor (still important against fast MUs like other combo or for an early moon)
4 x Pyroblast
2 x Red Elemental Blast
3 x Smuggler's Copter
1 x Blood Moon
1 x Ensnaring Bridge
3 x Karn, The Great Creator
4 x Lotus Petal (or maybe 3 x petal and 1 x Boros Signet)

Land (20)
4 x Ancient Tomb
2 x City of Traitors
2 x Bloodstained Mire
1 x Marsh Flats
4 x Arid Mesa
3 x Mountain
1 x Plains
2 x Plateau
1 x Great Furnace

SB (work in progress)
1 x Grindstone
1 x E.E.
1 x Tormod's Crypt
1 x Canonist/3sphere
1 x Pithing Needle (I went with this over Revoker as revoker was used primarily to shut off artifact mana abilities which Karn does now)
1 x Ensnaring Bridge
1 x Mycosynth Lattice (this combo is actually very attainable...more on this later)
2 x Blood Moon
4 x Leyline of the Void (especially if mulligan rule changes)
1 x Helm of Obedience (can leave in board and fetch with Karn)
1 x creature removal (probably artifact source such as Ballista, spellbomb, etc)

Copter is really good with Karn. If you have a copter, welder and karn in play you can get the lattice with karn, attack with copter and pitch the lattice and weld it back. 6 mana also isn't that hard to get to with this deck, although I am currently testing a boros signet over the 4th petal just because it sticks around and can give us recurrent W under a moon and can also be welded away for something like the lattice. I may even go to 2/2 split but that will get worked out in testing.

I have also been testing a version cutting one canonist and 1 blast for 2 Light up the Stage. The card was actually really good for me over the weekend. It again is particularly good in the control MUs and can be boarded out against the fast MUs but obviously is never dead. It does sometimes feel a little slow though and sometimes I found myself keeping bad hands with LutS because I would get brainstorm trapped ("the LutS will fix everything!").
I think it would depend on the meta.

Leyline/helm in the board is not necessary at all and I may likely switch that out to open up an extra slot or two for other useful artifacts. Building a "wish" sideboard is always a challenge. I like leyline with the new mulligan rule and I think you are always going to want to leave a crypt in the board for karn so leylines made sense in that regard as well, but those with helm takes up 5 slots, which is a lot.

There are also so many other cute artifacts to potentially include in the SB. But again, testing will be necessary.

Anyway, looking forward to brewing once the next set comes out. Kinda chomping at the bit with this one.

[compacta_d]

I'll also point out Karn can crew vehicles by turning them into creatures.

Vehicles retain creature stats when not a creature. Once they become a creature all the text becomes relevant.

Copter becomes 2/2 flying looter. Still great!

[Mirrislegend]

I'll also point out Karn can crew vehicles by turning them into creatures.

Vehicles retain creature stats when not a creature. Once they become a creature all the text becomes relevant.

Copter becomes 2/2 flying looter. Still great!

He stands an artifact up until your next turn. Nice for making blockers, but rough for letting your artifacts be more time vulnerable to creature removal.

[schweinefettmann]

I’m wondering if liquimetal coating is worth playing with the new karn. At that point it might also be worth playing a dack faydon. I can imagine turning opposing libraries into dudes to pyroclasm.

...actually, it’s probably too cute to be good. The new karn I can imagine being great for the deck. What I think we really need is a transformational sideboard plan, since most of the time, people saiding against a wish board assumes that the side has more of the same (artifacts in this case). Going into leyline+helm kill could catch them off guard, thinking that they’d have more time to react.


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[colo]

Liquimetal Coating is a *very* interesting card. It enables a lot of shenanigans with Goblin Welder and Dack Fayden, obviously, but I also like how it interacts with Transmute Artifact, Affinity, and Metalcraft. I'm not sure it's a good fit for Painter... maybe there's an UR(w) artifact control deck featuring Retrofitter Foundry hidden somewhere in the card pool using those cards (also running a Nahiri or Saheeli? And maybe the Thopter Foundry / Sword of the Meek combo?)... Lots of useful and cute interactions to be had. Probably too cute - but it does spur me to tinker a bit :)

[Pittplayer]

I’m wondering if liquimetal coating is worth playing with the new karn. At that point it might also be worth playing a dack faydon. I can imagine turning opposing libraries into dudes to pyroclasm.

...actually, it’s probably too cute to be good. The new karn I can imagine being great for the deck. What I think we really need is a transformational sideboard plan, since most of the time, people saiding against a wish board assumes that the side has more of the same (artifacts in this case). Going into leyline+helm kill could catch them off guard, thinking that they’d have more time to react.


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People board in Needle, Revoker, and artifact destruction vs Painter. Having a transformational sb that boards in Helm, loses to the same sb hate.

[schweinefettmann]

People board in Needle, Revoker, and artifact destruction vs Painter. Having a transformational sb that boards in Helm, loses to the same sb hate.

Yea, but the enchantment sticks, and helm needs less mana than powering through the painter grindstone. And at least needle and revoker naming grindstone doesn’t stop helm.

Possibly the thing that gives an edge is that we cheat out one piece of the combo, and it’s much faster than the painter stone, and the opponents hate pieces slow them down from their plan too.

In testing, it’s been pretty good. Maybe it’s generally not any better though. I can see it being a solid step up against dredge and emrakul decks tho.


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[Michael Keller]

Yea, but the enchantment sticks, and helm needs less mana than powering through the painter grindstone. And at least needle and revoker naming grindstone doesn’t stop helm.

Helm is also conditional on the basis of sticking a Leyline into play, otherwise it becomes effectively a dead slot out of the sideboard - and the last thing you care about is predicating your opening hand on Leyline of the Void. With Karn, you want to maximize your sideboard real estate where other cards like Tormod's Crypt (with Welder recursion) and Faerie Macabre (with Recruiter if opting for one or two non-artifact cards out of the board for hate) are smoother options and infinitely better off the top of the deck and with a mulligan to six with scry. If the new rule sticks, then sure - Leyline is better. But Leyline is a card you need to consider when leveraging the mulligan rule, because of the weight of needing it that it carries.

Karn for all intents and purposes changes the architecture of the sideboard into a "Wish" board, as such to maximize his utility. Helm with Leyline is fine if you want to go that route, but Pittplayer is correct: it does for all intents and purposes lose to the same hate.

Helm requiring less mana also doesn't make much sense, because the sequential nature of putting Grindstone and Painter into play can be measured by turns, not mana. In other words, if all you have is three mana over the course of the first three turns, that's all you'd need to win the game on turn three unimpeded. The opposing option is to 1.) Stick Leyline, 2.) Resolve Karn and get Helm, 3.) Cast and resolve Helm, and activate Helm unimpeded. This is also assuming you can find two Sol-lands which makes the likelihood of doing all of this expeditiously.

You're not doing this until turn five or six unimpeded unless you're playing in Magical Christmasland.

[Mirrislegend]

Karn for all intents and purposes changes the architecture of the sideboard into a "Wish" board, as such to maximize his utility. Helm with Leyline is fine if you want to go that route, but Pittplayer is correct: it does for all intents and purposes lose to the same hate.

Helm requiring less mana also doesn't make much sense, because the sequential nature of putting Grindstone and Painter into play can be measured by turns, not mana. In other words, if all you have is three mana over the course of the first three turns, that's all you'd need to win the game on turn three unimpeded. The opposing option is to 1.) Stick Leyline, 2.) Resolve Karn and get Helm, 3.) Cast and resolve Helm, and activate Helm unimpeded. This is also assuming you can find two Sol-lands which makes the likelihood of doing all of this expeditiously.

You're not doing this until turn five or six unimpeded unless you're playing in Magical Christmasland.

Agreed. However, your sequencing example makes me wonder about Karn's viability: he'll always consume significant tempo and resources to get what you want. His utility comes at a high price. As a result, I'm not sure we can lean on him as hard as some people say. I see him as a 1-of, maybe 2. Not that 3 to 4 that people are discussing.

[schweinefettmann]

When playing shortcake or imperial painter, I've had an immensely difficult time keeping artefacts and guys on the table.

It could just be my meta that is very skewed towards control, but if a deck does't play K.commands, it definitely sports decays and/or fatal pushes and other edict effects. It's why i look at the combo as a 6-mana win, with canonists, welders and moms as removal magnets over the previous few turns.
I suspect that for shortcake, karn might be a 'win more' games 2 and 3. There's nothing that E.tutor can't already get for you (and tutor can grab us hanna's custody where karn can't), and presumably you'd side in the cards you need games 2 and 3 (since firing off a 1 mana instant is easier than a 4 mana PW). He's a house game 1 though, since your opponents deck might not be able to deal with whatever silver bullet you have on the board.

That being said, I'm still excited to try it though. being able to make a copter swing in without having a guy in play seems good. And i can imagine he's a boss in the mirror.

[Mirrislegend]

Does Strawberry Shortcake care about the new Karn? He's just slower and more unwieldy than Enlightened Tutor. We're not in dire need of a wishboard. I think new Karn isn't for us. Thoughts?

[CptHaddock]

Does Strawberry Shortcake care about the new Karn? He's just slower and more unwieldy than Enlightened Tutor. We're not in dire need of a wishboard. I think new Karn isn't for us. Thoughts?

The card lets you play a tutor board alongside e-tutor and recruiter, to effectively fetch most of the cards in the deck, turns extra artifacts into beaters (+ you can loot with copter) and helps you beat surgical extraction (a card that is basically a 2 off in any deck that doesn't play chalice). What is there not to like?

[Michael Keller]

The card lets you play a tutor board alongside e-tutor and recruiter, to effectively fetch most of the cards in the deck, turns extra artifacts into beaters (+ you can loot with copter) and helps you beat surgical extraction (a card that is basically a 2 off in any deck that doesn't play chalice). What is there not to like?

For as hard for me as it is to say, I'm not so sure Enlightened Tutor is better than Karn now. E-Tutor is a raw deal against Surgical Extraction, and I always find myself wondering if boarding out the Tutors is worth it against those decks. I mean, it's a great card still - I just have reservations using it in post-board games.

Karn has stretch in the long game, and in mono red builds has huge incidental help against fast combo like Storm (shutting down their artifacts). Being able to fetch an exiled Painter is just incredible, and can get those exiled cards off Surgical that E-Tutor can absolutely not do.

[sroncor1]

Shit, sorry I realized I was posting in the IP thread and not this one. To answer the question, yes we likely care very much about the new Karn. Comparing him to E tutor totally misses the point and power of the card. Wishes aren't and shouldn't be viewed as a tutor as they are more powerful and versatile than that. Fundamentally all variants of Painter are a creature combo deck that hopes to win outside the red zone. Our creature and key spells are also artifacts which can get fairly well hated on by this time in Legacy. Karn works to address all these weaknesses while adding reach and additional ways for th deck to interact.

Now he may not work out in practice but in theory these options are something Painter has never had. His ability to fight STP, Surgical, add targeted hate game one, while giving us increased ways to remove hate against us is huge. It is in this light that he is much more than just a value engine, which I agree isn't necessarily something Shortcake wants.

Now we can switch to Leyline in the board, making all ou graveyard match ups better. And he randomly gives us an opps I win with a tutorable Helm. This is huge bc the maindeck is not diluted at all yet more options are available. His ability to grab Crypt game one now makes Bridge and Combo a way to beat Sneak and Show game one. He makes all the Moon effects just better when we need them but turning off petals and mox, actually making Moon a hate piece against storm. The list can go on and on for the various match ups how he directly helps fight what they do or allows us to run targeted high value silver bullets in a manner that is no longer card disadvantage but also of greater breadth.

Seth

[sroncor1]

Sorry for the double post, but I think E tutor def still has a place in the deck. While new Karn does overlap with the card, ultimately they serve 2 different roles. E tutor also allows for some increased flexibility and speed that is needed in Legacy. I think that whatever happens with Karn, the number of Etutor will not drop below 2, and at that point its only due to true space constraints as its likely we want the first or third copy of a card more than the third Etutor, even though we still want the third Etutor.

Seth

[Mirrislegend]

Fundamentally all variants of Painter are a creature combo deck that hopes to win outside the red zone.

I think this is where I'm stuck. The Canonists (as spare 2 power creatures), Copters, and low number of Bridges all say (to me) that we should almost always consider the attack options. Whether it be as a bluff or just to force our opponent's plays or switch gameplans based on opponent plays, the creature beats are often relevant (to my understanding). The primer in the opening post definitely supports this point of view!

Also, interpreting that quote from a different perspective: if you want to win without attacking, then we need tutors for both combo pieces. Recruiter covers Painter but Grindstone has been left lacking. White splash provides Enlightened Tutor to cover that missing component (while also enabling some bullets). New Karn provides that tutor (and more bullets) without the need to splash white for Enlightened Tutor. If both pieces can be tutored for without splashing white, why splash white? New Karn makes mono-red painter super viable. It seems to me that New Karn and mono-red will go hand-in-hand, whereas Strawberry Shortcake just doesn't need him in the same way.

I think New Karn could be a solid sideboard card for Shortcake: our opponents bring in Surgicals, etc and we respond with New Karn.
Other than that, how does Shortcake justify a 4-mana, probably one-use card that is mostly redundant?

[sroncor1]

@ Mirrislegend- I am not sure how the number of bridges play into the fact that we don't want to have to attack. Just bc we do not shut down attacking, doesn't mean that we want to objectively attack. Canonists and Copter fit nicely within the overall plan of hand sculpting and creating a window to assemble and activate the combo. Canonist is just a hate piece, much like thorns or Moon effects, this one however just fits better in the deck to to interactions with Copter and Recruiter. Creature beats being relevant is different than HAVING to win through attacking. Copter ability to kill planeswalkers and put pressure on their life total is important bc it forces them to use removal allowing the combo to hopefully resolve and activate unmolested.

Your comment amount tutors doesn't make sens in the Shortcake thread as we have been on E tutor to address that issue for over 7 years at this point. However new Karn doesn't change this. For starters, the difference between 1 and 4 mana is enormous. The speed that E tutor allows, while being an instant, can not be understated. Using Karn to reliably get combo pieces requires you to run LESS combo pieces in the main deck, but with more VIRTUAL combo pieces at a fairly high premium on mana and time. E tutor allow the deck to maximize the combo pieces while maximizing the speed of the deck. This is important. Karn likely operates outside of this.

Thinking of Karn as just a wish with one activation is short sighted most likely. While the wish ability got us all excited, thinking of him I that manner sets a low floor where his upside is actually much higher. He opens up not only a toolbox tutor targets, but new ways to lock out the opponent, while further providing disruption to some plans out opponents may play. I fully expect that when we cast him turn 2 we will likely tick him up first and then go bananas turn 3. With his high loyalty it should be relatively easy to get multiple activations while further creating another permanent that our opponents NEED to answer. His ability to immediately impact the board later game by negating STP or finding a key answer further strengthen the reach he provides.

Sorry if this is a tad mean, but some of those thoughts were just wrong and I wanted to make sure that the hivemind doesnt go down that rabbit hole as the Source has been known to do.

Seth

[Mirrislegend]

Sorry if this is a tad mean, but some of those thoughts were just wrong and I wanted to make sure that the hivemind doesnt go down that rabbit hole as the Source has been known to do.

No worries! Being completely incorrect means drastic correction is necessary. Thank you for your thoroughness.

With that understanding, so many design choices by a variety of people make more sense. I'm definitely updating my list correspondingly. I don't think I'll be able to integrate New Karn properly anytime soon, so here's what I'll be playing:

4 Painter
4 Recruiter
3 Welder
3 Canonist
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Goblin Cratermaker
1 Hope of Ghirapur
4 Copter

4 Grindstone
4 Petal
1 Light Up the Stage
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Bridge
1 Moon
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Pyroblast
1 REB

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Great Furnace
3 Mountain
2 Plateau
1 Sacred Foundry (budget :frown:)
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire

SB:
4 Surgical
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 REB
1 Containment Priest
1 Bridge
1 Pithing Needle
2 Whipflare
1 Sulfur Elemental
2 Karn, Scion of Urza

[Kap'n Cook]

So with new Karn on the horizon, I wanted to jot down some of my thoughts over the past couple weeks. I guess I'll post what I think I will start testing first:

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Plateau
3 Mountain
2 Great Furnace

4 Lotus Petal
1 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter's Servant
3 Goblin Welder
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Walking Ballista

3 Grindstone
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Blood Moon

4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast

3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Smuggler's Copter
3 Karn, the Great Creator


Sideboard:

1 Grindstone
1 Mycosynth Lattice

2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle/Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Duplicant
1 Wurmcoil Engine

1 Magus of the Moon
4 Random Test Spots


A quick few notes and assumptions about the board:

0) I like the look of the main a lot more than the side at the moment. As with any overhaul, the sideboard is completely in flux, especially if it's a wishboard now.

1) I am building this with the expectation that the new mulligan rule doesn't stay in legacy. I personally don't think it's a smart decision to keep the new rule, but we're talking about Wizards so anything is possible. So with that in mind, I wanted to go with a minimal yard hate list of two crypts since they can still be found game 1, and sideboard you get to bring one in and leave on in the board for E-tutor and Karn coverage. We won't know the state of graveyard decks and how much hate we'll need til the summer anyways.

2) The random test spots are for artifacts I am not sure about and want to see how they perform with Karn. At the end of the day, I plan on fitting in 4 Pyroclasm since it is so good against a large portion of the meta, especially the new UR delver lists.

3) Magus in the board? This is directly tied to testing out the maindeck LED, which I'll expand on further later. Basically having a secondary Moon effect in the 75 has always felt pretty good.

4) Grindstone side? Extra grindstones are usually the worst draw in the deck, and making it so we have a functional 10 copies main between all of our tutors should be an easy way to create another maindeck slot

5) Duplicant/Wurmcoil. 6 mana bombs for a variety of matchups.



For the main:

1) 20th Land. The extra for me will start as the second great furnace. In my initial lists this was a Mox Opal, but I don't think we run enough artifacts to reliably turn it on. I think we will want more mana to compensate for Karn's fatness, and another great furnace helps on both the casting him side and making sure the sideboard bombs resolve with Welder's help. I plan on seeing whether this spot should be another Monkey, LED, the 4th City, or just something different altogether.

2) Lion's Eye Diamond. I was only ever running this as a one-of toward the tail end of the Top era, but it was a complete bomb. I think revisiting it in this new build will help. Obviously it helps our nut draw and enables turn 2 welder shenanigans, but independent of that I am really excited to try out LED as a tutor target for Karn lines. I can envision a lot of games where we cast Karn, play LED, and grab bridge to instantly lock out combat. The follow up turn we can get another activation out of Karn for something like Lattice and still have him live at one loyalty. LED also helps to enable some all-in Recruiter lines, and can cast Magus of the Moon or Canonist in postboard games.

3) 2 Canonists/6 Blasts. I am still a really big fan of Canonist. I know others have reduced the numbers recently, I just like how it completely warps the game in our favor while also providing an easy way to steal game 1s against Storm. I feel like going to 2 is okay because Karn's passive overlaps as hate against Combo, while also giving us the ability to just grab another from the board if need be. I have kept this at 6 blasts to start just because I am comfortable with it and play Shortcake more as a stack based deck. I could see going to 3 Canonist/5 Blast if testing leans that way.

4) 3 Tutor/3 Karn. Full access to our entire 75 at all times. It also allows us to create some wiggle room where if we need an artifact asap, it can always be boarded in to be found faster with tutor/natural drawing. To create space for Karn, i think it was a simple chop of Cratermaker, maindeck EE, and the 4th copter. Dropping creatures matters less because this Karn still crews copter by himself. He also allows us to chop the chalice hate since he handles that too. The only downside is that our Delver matchup gets worse as our curve rises and cheap removal leaves the main, but I am hopeful that it won't matter too much and that pyroclasm will cover those bases.

5) 4 Painter main vs 3/1. This could be wrong. Natural Painter is one of our best plays, especially with all the blasts. Waiting to grab one with Karn seems slow, especially when 95% of the time recruiter grabs Painter and a lot of E-tutors do too. Karn just helps get the ones back that have already tanked a STP. I'll watch this one closely as well.

6) White splash. I know people have been talking about whether white is needed or not anymore. I think Karn fits in both decks. White will still be faster and more flexible, while lacking the brute force and mana stability of mono-red. That was the case before too and I don't really see that changing. Really comes down to preferred playstyle. It's similar to how Painted Stone is the pure combo version of Shortcake, mono-red is the super resilient Shortcake.



Some other random thoughts that aren't necessarily about the above 75:

1) Grim Lavamancer gets better with Karn. You can create the most ghetto Goblin Welder of all time by removing artifacts from your yard with Lavaman and then wishing them back to your hand with Karn. Lavaman can also kill random cheap artifacts like Needle after Karn turns them into a creature. For now I still like Ballista as it can be found by rec/etutor, shoot right away, and be welded.

2) Grindstone becomes a beater. I've always wanted a Magus of the Stone. This will do for now.

3) Karn grabbing Lattice and then plus-ing gives you a 6/6 beater to either win the game or buy time against stuff like an already in play Goyf/Angler and ensure the lock stays in place.

4) I still despise Chalice and Counterbalance. Karn should help out big time against both, but if they are still a huge pain adding back Hedge-Mage as the recruitable option might be the play.


I also wanted to come up with a quick list of other artifacts that could work their way into the board. Thanks to Hollywood's recent post too for some gems.

In no particular order:

1) Great Furnace
2) Pyrite Spellbomb
3) Grafdigger's Cage
4) Mindslaver
5) Bubble Matrix
6) Trinisphere
7) Phryexian Metamorph
8) Umezawa's Jitte
9) Slash Panther
10) Spellskite
11) Winter Orb
12) Phyrexian Revoker
13) Ratchet Bomb
14) Witchbane Orb
15) Caltrops

I still need to comb through the old threads to find other potential options, and also do a deep dive on gatherer.



Anyways, this post is pretty all over the place, but I wanted to try to narrow down an approach for playing Karn and I feel like this list is a decent starting point. Karn comes out the first week of May, and then I'll be out of the country for 10 days in the middle, but after that the testing will commence. I'll definitely fire the stream back up, and we'll be stomping in no time.

[Mirrislegend]

I'll definitely fire the stream back up, and we'll be stomping in no time.

Stream link?

[Michael Keller]

I really like Slash Panther in the sideboard in the mono red iteration. Like I mentioned, he's basically instant damage to finish off a Planeswalker or get through whatever few points of damage are left. I'm not insinuating it's optimal, but my list (mono red, anyhow) is heavy on the Wish aspect between Karn and Ring.

(I also know some folks aren't digging it, so far I've had no problems with it and it has over-performed as a one-of.)

I'm also going big-time on the Liquimetal Coating/Karn/Gorilla Shaman deal, so the dynamic there is a bit different. I'm concentrating more on attrition than the combo, and adding intertwined dynamics into the deck so no draw is really "dead."

I do think Leyline gives the deck legs out of the board, but I don't know how hard it needs to lean on the white splash. Keep in mind that, even though it's just two colors, the mana base is still slightly destabilized so Wasteland and cards of the sort can stop the deck from accelerating faster than it normally should into Karn and then Lattice.

[Bash]

For now I still like Ballista as it can be found by rec/etutor, shoot right away, and be welded.

You mean you can weld ballista with no counter on it ? :confused:

I guess you mean it's an artifact so weldable and you can activate right away

[drude1]

So with new Karn on the horizon, I wanted to jot down some of my thoughts over the past couple weeks. I guess I'll post what I think I will start testing first:

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Plateau
3 Mountain
2 Great Furnace

4 Lotus Petal
1 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter's Servant
3 Goblin Welder
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Walking Ballista

3 Grindstone
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Blood Moon

4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast

3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Smuggler's Copter
3 Karn, the Great Creator


Sideboard:

1 Grindstone
1 Mycosynth Lattice

2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle/Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Duplicant
1 Wurmcoil Engine

1 Magus of the Moon
4 Random Test Spots


A quick few notes and assumptions about the board:

0) I like the look of the main a lot more than the side at the moment. As with any overhaul, the sideboard is completely in flux, especially if it's a wishboard now.

1) I am building this with the expectation that the new mulligan rule doesn't stay in legacy. I personally don't think it's a smart decision to keep the new rule, but we're talking about Wizards so anything is possible. So with that in mind, I wanted to go with a minimal yard hate list of two crypts since they can still be found game 1, and sideboard you get to bring one in and leave on in the board for E-tutor and Karn coverage. We won't know the state of graveyard decks and how much hate we'll need til the summer anyways.

2) The random test spots are for artifacts I am not sure about and want to see how they perform with Karn. At the end of the day, I plan on fitting in 4 Pyroclasm since it is so good against a large portion of the meta, especially the new UR delver lists.

3) Magus in the board? This is directly tied to testing out the maindeck LED, which I'll expand on further later. Basically having a secondary Moon effect in the 75 has always felt pretty good.

4) Grindstone side? Extra grindstones are usually the worst draw in the deck, and making it so we have a functional 10 copies main between all of our tutors should be an easy way to create another maindeck slot

5) Duplicant/Wurmcoil. 6 mana bombs for a variety of matchups.



For the main:

1) 20th Land. The extra for me will start as the second great furnace. In my initial lists this was a Mox Opal, but I don't think we run enough artifacts to reliably turn it on. I think we will want more mana to compensate for Karn's fatness, and another great furnace helps on both the casting him side and making sure the sideboard bombs resolve with Welder's help. I plan on seeing whether this spot should be another Monkey, LED, the 4th City, or just something different altogether.

2) Lion's Eye Diamond. I was only ever running this as a one-of toward the tail end of the Top era, but it was a complete bomb. I think revisiting it in this new build will help. Obviously it helps our nut draw and enables turn 2 welder shenanigans, but independent of that I am really excited to try out LED as a tutor target for Karn lines. I can envision a lot of games where we cast Karn, play LED, and grab bridge to instantly lock out combat. The follow up turn we can get another activation out of Karn for something like Lattice and still have him live at one loyalty. LED also helps to enable some all-in Recruiter lines, and can cast Magus of the Moon or Canonist in postboard games.

3) 2 Canonists/6 Blasts. I am still a really big fan of Canonist. I know others have reduced the numbers recently, I just like how it completely warps the game in our favor while also providing an easy way to steal game 1s against Storm. I feel like going to 2 is okay because Karn's passive overlaps as hate against Combo, while also giving us the ability to just grab another from the board if need be. I have kept this at 6 blasts to start just because I am comfortable with it and play Shortcake more as a stack based deck. I could see going to 3 Canonist/5 Blast if testing leans that way.

4) 3 Tutor/3 Karn. Full access to our entire 75 at all times. It also allows us to create some wiggle room where if we need an artifact asap, it can always be boarded in to be found faster with tutor/natural drawing. To create space for Karn, i think it was a simple chop of Cratermaker, maindeck EE, and the 4th copter. Dropping creatures matters less because this Karn still crews copter by himself. He also allows us to chop the chalice hate since he handles that too. The only downside is that our Delver matchup gets worse as our curve rises and cheap removal leaves the main, but I am hopeful that it won't matter too much and that pyroclasm will cover those bases.

5) 4 Painter main vs 3/1. This could be wrong. Natural Painter is one of our best plays, especially with all the blasts. Waiting to grab one with Karn seems slow, especially when 95% of the time recruiter grabs Painter and a lot of E-tutors do too. Karn just helps get the ones back that have already tanked a STP. I'll watch this one closely as well.

6) White splash. I know people have been talking about whether white is needed or not anymore. I think Karn fits in both decks. White will still be faster and more flexible, while lacking the brute force and mana stability of mono-red. That was the case before too and I don't really see that changing. Really comes down to preferred playstyle. It's similar to how Painted Stone is the pure combo version of Shortcake, mono-red is the super resilient Shortcake.



Some other random thoughts that aren't necessarily about the above 75:

1) Grim Lavamancer gets better with Karn. You can create the most ghetto Goblin Welder of all time by removing artifacts from your yard with Lavaman and then wishing them back to your hand with Karn. Lavaman can also kill random cheap artifacts like Needle after Karn turns them into a creature. For now I still like Ballista as it can be found by rec/etutor, shoot right away, and be welded.

2) Grindstone becomes a beater. I've always wanted a Magus of the Stone. This will do for now.

3) Karn grabbing Lattice and then plus-ing gives you a 6/6 beater to either win the game or buy time against stuff like an already in play Goyf/Angler and ensure the lock stays in place.

4) I still despise Chalice and Counterbalance. Karn should help out big time against both, but if they are still a huge pain adding back Hedge-Mage as the recruitable option might be the play.


I also wanted to come up with a quick list of other artifacts that could work their way into the board. Thanks to Hollywood's recent post too for some gems.

In no particular order:

1) Great Furnace
2) Pyrite Spellbomb
3) Grafdigger's Cage
4) Mindslaver
5) Bubble Matrix
6) Trinisphere
7) Phryexian Metamorph
8) Umezawa's Jitte
9) Slash Panther
10) Spellskite
11) Winter Orb
12) Phyrexian Revoker
13) Ratchet Bomb
14) Witchbane Orb
15) Caltrops

I still need to comb through the old threads to find other potential options, and also do a deep dive on gatherer.



Anyways, this post is pretty all over the place, but I wanted to try to narrow down an approach for playing Karn and I feel like this list is a decent starting point. Karn comes out the first week of May, and then I'll be out of the country for 10 days in the middle, but after that the testing will commence. I'll definitely fire the stream back up, and we'll be stomping in no time.


We are landing pretty close on lists, although the one glaring difference is Mom. I'm still on 3 x mom main as it has just been so good for me. I am also playing 2 x boros signet and 3 x lotus petal as my "fast mana" right now, but that could very well change. I like boros signet given all the sol lands in the deck and it let's you get more easily to 4 mana on turn 2 which is really what we are looking for. It also gives you white after a moon affect hits the table and can be turned into a 2/2 with Karn which has some relevance. I like mox opal as well but I agree that our artifact count is a little low to make those really effective. You would at the very least have to get in the full compliment of great furnace.
I do like the lavamancer tech. I honestly didn't consider that interaction, but given that, I think I would play it over ballista.
I am also waffling on how many canonists to play. When it's good, it's really good. But like you said, there is some redundancy with Karn against storm decks and for me, the mom's protect my painters when trying to combo the way canonist would. On the other hand, show and tell decks are really gaining popularity again, and canonist is one of our best answers to that menace.
Also, if the london mulligan rule does go into effect, you are probably going to need more graveyard hate....just sayin'.

As for some of the other issues coming up on the board, I think it's totally fine and likely optimal to be playing both e.tutors and Karn in the same deck. Not only does it give you redundancy (which is a good thing in a combo deck) but the e.tutor gives you fast answers to urgent problems (ie. against STORM or eldrazi) and helps you win "out of nowhere". Nothing better than having welder and copter on the table and tutoring in response to copter loot for whatever you need. I have won many games doing this exact thing for part of the combo piece and winning on the spot welding in that piece after pitching it to the copter.
Karn plays a similar but different role. Yes, it can get you combo pieces but it can also win on its own with lattice and can wish for all sorts of answers to other problems we might be having. It also animates copter on it's own, kills chalice and other X or 0 cost artifacts (tormod's, artifact lands, e.e., etc) and again is obviously a 1-sided null rod. That's a lot to ask of a single card in this deck.

And as to whether or not we can win by turning creatures sideways, of course we can. We have all won many games with copter and other dork beats. In fact, one of my favorite ways to win is to have a bridge on the table, draw up to 3 (or now 2 with karn), swing in with copter, and then play something to reduce my hand size again. However, that is not the primary goal of the deck. We are definitely a combo deck first, or at least that's how I play it. I think it just goes back to assessing your role in each match-up.

A couple other artifacts to consider in the board:
1. Dispeller's Capsule
2. Hope of Ghirapur
3. Filigree Familiar
4. Relic of Progenitus? (split with crypt? It also has the benefit of being found by Karn again if used)
5. Thorn
6. Brittle Effigy/Executioner's capsule
7. Triskelion/triskelavus - I might like these more than ballista at this point just because of the recursive nature of it with welder. You can use the counters, weld it out, then weld it back in with counters on it again.
8. Jitte or other equipment (for creature or burn MU?)
9. defense grid
10. Jester's Cap
11. cursed scroll

Not saying all these are good, but they do all serve a purpose and I have to admit I've tried them all at some point in my painting career.

[Mirrislegend]

kills chalice and other X or 0 cost artifacts (tormod's, artifact lands, e.e., etc)

Karn kills Chalice! I missed that. Wow that's rad.

[Jungian Thing]

Jack,

Your post is gas! I had all but lost interest in the deck after the SDT ban and your post has me back, thanks!!!

I love the idea of a wish board. I know it's a bit cute and the cmc makes it win more but Ugin's Nexus with Karn and Welder for infinite turns would be a blast. Etched champion for beats. And definitely an equipment, Jitte as has been suggested.

[Kap'n Cook]

4th place in the challenge today. I was punting all over the place but a combination of running hot and Karn straight up carrying got us to top 4. Lost to eldrazi there in a close 3. Main takeaway is that copter feels so much better as a secondary enabler of everything compared to the top-end plan like it was before. Having karn as a bailout lets you play so much more aggressive early

[Mirrislegend]

Are the results of that Legacy Challenge posted anywhere? I can't find it.

[aedemiel]

4th place in the challenge today...

Video? Battle repport? Please?

[sroncor1]

Updated deck list:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Plateau
3 Mountain
1 Great Furnace

4 Lotus Petal
1 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter's Servant
3 Goblin Welder
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Lavaman

3 Grindstone
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Blood Moon

4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast

3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Smuggler's Copter
3 Karn, the Great Creator


Sideboard:

1 Grindstone
1 Mycosynth Lattice

1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitis
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Wurmcoil Engine

1 Magus of the Moon
3 Pyroclams
2 Surgical

Notes: Jack and I are essentially on the same list. I am on the 4th City instead of Great Furnace, along with a Lavaman instead of his Walking Ballista. I was skyped in for most of the challenge and we were able to talk through many of the lines and sequencing. I was also able to get in nearly 20 matches over the weekend. Deck felt good the entire time. The ability to go one for one with your opponent and then resolve Karn for value is huge. I was talking to Jack, and really noticed that for the first time I am totally ok with a Fatal Push killing our Painters. As I know Karn will just allow me to power through so much.

The Karn lines have been interesting to work through. Having Relic in the board really opens things up, along with this being the best version to really abuse Ensnaring Bridge. It is likely we will need to adjust the board to maximize the value of Karn, but we will need to see how that all shakes out. so far it has felt really good. Overall I would report that you can play much more aggressively in all match ups as Karn into Bridge into Lattice is just so good, that you want your Painters and Welders and Copter to be bait. That influx of pure power and pressure is something the deck never had. It is funny that we have long lamented that Wizards never gives us toys and then they basically give us exactly what we need, while we didn't even know we wanted it.

While small sample sizes match feel good. RUG, Death's Shadow, Miracles, and Grixis feel like we are in it as Karn gives us the top end that we didn't have before. I am not sure on the Lavaman/Ballista slot. It should be one of them, but for the life of me I am not sure. While curve and utility likely favors Lavaman, the ability for Ballista to really be abused with Karn likely give the edge to Ballista.

More to come, as we test.

I highly recommend trying out this list. The 3 E tutor felt good. Manabase was solid throughout the day, there is no way that a basic Plains has a spot in the deck as occasionally red was at a premium, and I would never cut a sol land for a white source. In general this is a list that DOES NOT want Mom. I would recommend testing this list (or Jack's variant as we are 73/75) before making any crazy changes. we have a minimal wish board, but it feels good while letting us fight through Elves and the like. We do not want want spells like Liquidmetal Coating and the like in this deck.

Seth

[Mirrislegend]

Kapncook had a Mox Opal in a test list. Did you try it?

Did you miss the 3rd maindeck Canonist? Or the REBs in the SB?

Doesn't the 4th City directly improve Walking Ballista? Do you feel you run out of fuel for Lavaman?

[sroncor1]

@Mox Opal- I may be wrong here, but I think Jack tried it and very quickly that we lacked the artifacts to reliably use the card. LED largely fills that role with Karn and just feels awesome in general.

@ Canonist- Yeah that is something we talked about. You sort of want a fourth sphere type effect in the 75 to be honest. 2 Main felt good, but it was clunky with the boarding. Obviously in those match ups like Elves and Storm when you really want early hate bears, you board in the third copy. Unfortunately, this leads to some games when you really want to wish for one with Karn to just lock the game up. Space is so tight, I am not sure we can make this work. It is definitely something to keep an eye on and Jack and I talked about it. The one thing to remember is that Karn's ability to turn off artifacts does help minimize some of the fear from storm lists.

@Blasts- We are now running 6 maindeck blasts which is ok. I know I personally dropped to five at times in the main, with the sixth in the board at times. Now we have managed to get the sixth blast back in the main, which is nice. I think having Karn and 3 Welders, helps to minimize the loss of the seventh blast. It is now less important to win counter wars, while also increasing our overall threat density.

@Lavaman- I think I am in the minority with the card, but I never felt that I struggled to fuel him. I always looked at him as a 1-2 shot creature that crews. as such he still fills that role nicely. City likely makes Ballista better, but I have not tested that. In general the City count being upped is more to support Karn into Lattice. At this time I am very conflicted about the role of Ballista/Lavaman. Both have really nice upside, and it may come down to preference and slight meta game calls. I encourage others to test them out and see what happens.

I imagine Jack will have a more complete write up soon. I plan to test some more this week and will likely have a more tested list(unlikely to be more than 2-3 cards changed) later this week. Hopefully with some sideboarding and general lines of play to help others get the ball rolling.

Seth

[Mirrislegend]

Thanks for the thorough answers!


@Lavaman- I think I am in the minority with the card, but I never felt that I struggled to fuel him. I always looked at him as a 1-2 shot creature that crews. as such he still fills that role nicely. City likely makes Ballista better, but I have not tested that. In general the City count being upped is more to support Karn into Lattice. At this time I am very conflicted about the role of Ballista/Lavaman. Both have really nice upside, and it may come down to preference and slight meta game calls. I encourage others to test them out and see what happens. I've been on both sides of the line as well. I find the inclusion of a maindeck EE to be a major factor, as it reliably wipes tokens meaning Ballista's repeated shooting is less necessary.

[Cyanhur]

4th place in the challenge today. I was punting all over the place but a combination of running hot and Karn straight up carrying got us to top 4. Lost to eldrazi there in a close 3. Main takeaway is that copter feels so much better as a secondary enabler of everything compared to the top-end plan like it was before. Having karn as a bailout lets you play so much more aggressive early

Nice results! Did you dod a video with your challenge? Or do you will Stream again?

[drude1]

Nice results! Did you dod a video with your challenge? Or do you will Stream again?Agreed... Jack, you need to get a regular stream going again. It's good to brainstorm (figuratively) in real time with fellow painters. Very optimistic about the results though. I would like to discuss more specifically about SB strategies. I've already had a difficult time with wish sideboard... What to side in vs leaving in SB for wish targets, etc. Seth kind of alluded to this regarding tormod's/relic. I just sometimes feel like I am at a disadvantage when I can't side in 3+ cards for a particular match up.

@Seth: when you say interaction between Karn and ballista, what exactly are you talking about? BTW, I will say that I would have to agree about mom in the current list. Karn kinda makes mom less effective towards the overall game plan. Having said that, I think I would consider the full playset of welder as it interacts extremely well with Karn.

Also, although it's expensive, what do people think about Solar Blaze as a SB sweeper? It's obviously more mana intensive than pyroclasm but it hits a lot more creatures, including eldrazi, TNN, gurmag, and also kills things like revoker without them being able to protect with Mom. It also DOES NOT kill painter. I wish it was 3 mana, but with all of the new sol lands in the deck it's not unreasonable. I might test one in the board for a little while.

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[Mirrislegend]

@Seth: when you say interaction between Karn and ballista, what exactly are you talking about?
Maybe that we can stand up their artifacts and shoot them with Ballista? Pithing Needle and Aether Vial cost a Karn activation and 1 Ballista counter to kill. Jitte and Sorcerous Spyglass cost 2 counters.

[drude1]

Maybe that we can stand up their artifacts and shoot them with Ballista? Pithing Needle and Aether Vial cost a Karn activation and 1 Ballista counter to kill. Jitte and Sorcerous Spyglass cost 2 counters.

But in both of those cases, lavaman would just be better. Obviously ballista is good because you can find it with a tutor or with Karn from the board. But main deck I'm not sure. I guess CC 3+ artifacts would potentially be murdered by ballista and not lavaman. That's the only thing I can think of.

[Mirrislegend]

Ah, I finally found what you were referencing:

While curve and utility likely favors Lavaman, the ability for Ballista to really be abused with Karn likely give the edge to Ballista.
I can't figure out what synergy he's referring to either.

[sroncor1]

Both actually have synergy with Karn. Lavaman has the ability to exile cards allowing Karn to find any artifact we need. Ballista can be found after exile however. So with the power of something like Relic, you can set up slow loops with Ballista as a way to deal damage under a bridge without attacking. Currently mtgo is bugged and a Painter played after Lattice resolves no longer works. So it is important to have additional ways to win Incase your opponent doesn’t scoop.

I had to make similar plays this weekend with Copter as my Painter kill wasn’t an option. Just something to think about.

Both cards actually synergies with Karn, but I think Ballista does more.

Seth

[schweinefettmann]

Agreed... Jack, you need to get a regular stream going again. It's good to brainstorm (figuratively) in real time with fellow painters. Very optimistic about the results though. I would like to discuss more specifically about SB strategies. I've already had a difficult time with wish sideboard... What to side in vs leaving in SB for wish targets, etc. Seth kind of alluded to this regarding tormod's/relic. I just sometimes feel like I am at a disadvantage when I can't side in 3+ cards for a particular match up.

@Seth: when you say interaction between Karn and ballista, what exactly are you talking about? BTW, I will say that I would have to agree about mom in the current list. Karn kinda makes mom less effective towards the overall game plan. Having said that, I think I would consider the full playset of welder as it interacts extremely well with Karn.

Also, although it's expensive, what do people think about Solar Blaze as a SB sweeper? It's obviously more mana intensive than pyroclasm but it hits a lot more creatures, including eldrazi, TNN, gurmag, and also kills things like revoker without them being able to protect with Mom. It also DOES NOT kill painter. I wish it was 3 mana, but with all of the new sol lands in the deck it's not unreasonable. I might test one in the board for a little while.

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I had to look up that solar blaze. Certainly looks interesting, but 4 mana is pretty intense. And also a sorcery. But it could be a thing. Means you can’t even sunforger it.


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[Michael Keller]

I had to look up that solar blaze. Certainly looks interesting, but 4 mana is pretty intense. And also a sorcery. But it could be a thing. Means you can’t even sunforger it.


Ensnaring Bridge is just better at stopping attackers, notably larger ones, while Pyroclasm fills the role best for sweeping the board overall against a larger variety of decks.

[sroncor1]

I will not lie, I had no idea what Solar Blaze was. But after seeing it, it seems super weak. Four mana, across two colors is a heavy ask. And Hollywood summed it up well. Bridge and Pyroclasm just do the work more efficiently and cheaper.

Seth

[L10]

I am not sure on the Lavaman/Ballista slot. It should be one of them, but for the life of me I am not sure. While curve and utility likely favors Lavaman, the ability for Ballista to really be abused with Karn likely give the edge to Ballista.
I'm playing your list, but with Ballista in the 3rd Pyroclasm slot, as part of the Wishboard. I like have access to both Lavaman/Ballista in the 75. The trade off is the efficiency of Pyroclasm vs. the flexibility of Lavaman/Ballista, which I think is worth it.

I'm also trying to figure out a way to add in Jaya as a Recruitable discard outlet to turn on Welder in the event I don't have Copter. It will probably be the LED slot, since I had never been too impressed with it in Painter, but am willing to give LED a chance before dismissing it.

[Mirrislegend]

Finally the stars have aligned and I get to play Legacy again. As I finally start laying cardboard against real opponents, my biggest takeaway is: mulligans suck. Do we have a sideboarding guide anywhere? Or even guidelines?
Things I ran into: How slow is too slow? Do I keep a very slow 6 or go to 5? Do I keep a 1 land, 0 fast-mana 5 or go to 4? Do I mull a hand of mostly fast mana (such that I can make one or two plays and then have no more resources)? How hard do I mulligan for hate?

[CptHaddock]

Finally the stars have aligned and I get to play Legacy again. As I finally start laying cardboard against real opponents, my biggest takeaway is: mulligans suck. Do we have a sideboarding guide anywhere? Or even guidelines?
Things I ran into: How slow is too slow? Do I keep a very slow 6 or go to 5? Do I keep a 1 land, 0 fast-mana 5 or go to 4? Do I mull a hand of mostly fast mana (such that I can make one or two plays and then have no more resources)? How hard do I mulligan for hate?

There really aren't any guidelines outside of some of the more obvious ones i.e. don't keep hands with sol lands + only red/white cards, don't keep no landers, etc. Basically just ask yourself "what does this hand actually do?" and if the answer is "not much", than ship it. There is no thing as too slow unless you are playing vs a combo deck, in which case you can mulligan more aggressively to either the combo, painter + blasts or hate pieces for that combo. 1 landers kind of depend on what your opening hand is, if the hand is good but just needs 1-2 more lands i'll tend to keep it. If you have a turn 1 moon and no other lands i'd keep it since a turn 1 moon can end the game on the spot vs certain matchups.

[drude1]

Regarding Solar Blaze, I was just throwing it out there. Again, as I originally said, it's probably over-costed. I also agree that I don't like the fact that it is sorcery speed, but so is pyroclasm. However, I certainly wouldn't say that it is "weak", especially compared to pyroclasm. What Solar Blaze does that pyroclasm doesn't:
1. kills TNN
2. kills a creature that has a jitte with counters on it. Also kills batterskull token.
3. kills mentor and it's tokens, no matter how much they get powered up
4. kills revoker, even if they have a mom on board.
5. kills pteromander after it is pumped up
6. kills other fatties like death's shadow, angler, tombstalker, Leovold, thought-knot and other eldrazi. Even kills Emrakul although I don't think I would be bringing it in in the S&S MU
7. Still doesn't kill painter

I'm not saying I would replace bridge at all. But there are times you don't have bridge or they kill bridge and you need a board sweep. It's obviously slower against elves and goblins, and that's where the biggest problem I see is. I just think it would be worth testing is all.

Secondly, Mirrislegend brings up a good point in asking the question about fast mana. Now that we aren't really concentrating on blood moon, what is the benefit of playing 5 x 1 time fast mana? I know I've talked about this before, but it seems that at this point with karn we are trying to accelerate to four mana vs 3 mana, so wouldn't something like boros signet be better? You drop that off your sol land on turn one and can play karn on turn 2 with another land? I've been testing them some and I think they are pretty good. I will say that you have to think about your plays ahead of time and plan accordingly to use the colored mana. But it's nice to have that mana stick around through multiple turns, especially when you might be going karn into lattice or wurmcoil. One time mana just isn't great in those situations. It's also nice that you can animate it with karn and get in some 2/2 beats or have a blocker if absolutely necessary. LED of course is a different beast all together and I am not referring to that. It has been really good lately and it turns on so many more turn 2-3 wins when you can tutor for the LED.

As for the 3 card combo of karn + ballista + relic, that feels like a stretch. I'm not saying it doesn't work but if I have relic I'm probably just going to kill them the old fashioned way with painter + grindstone. The lavaman combo seems more relevant. Having said that, I have personally been playing with ballista more because it feels less fragile, can be tutored for using all of our tutors and you can start using it the turn you play it, which has come up quite a bit. Also the fact that it is colorless damage is helpful sometimes.

Anyway, those are my rantings for the time being.

[Mirrislegend]

Signet sounds really good to me. I'll definitely keep it in mind going forward.

When I look at the Relic loops, I see EE re-use as the most appealing option. However Ballista is so powerful and flexible that any potential abuses of it, such as re-using it with this loop, should always be considered.

[sroncor1]

Guys, some interesting thoughts...

@ Mirrislegend- That is an interesting ask. The real issue is that we do not know yet. I will be honest I think I have finally gotten over 50 games with teh new build on MTGO. So enough to have a feel for the deck and some sequencing, but its different enough from prior builds, that while I can sort of make gut decisions in match ups (ie, what game it is, what the deck is, am I on the play or draw, what I think my opp. kept) translating all that is a lot harder at this time as we work through it. I would imagine we could come up with something in a couple weeks, but even then we rarely have lines where its a card and you snap keep. So its a complicated and nuanced part of playing the deck. Honestly, you will be best served trying to make the decisions, seeing how they play out, going over why that happened and then assess if you made the optimal choice on the keep and the sequence. So its hard in general, wish I could just give you an easy list. In general though, outside of storm or Dredge, you likely don't want to be too aggressive with your mulling in games.

@Drude1- they both synergize well with Karn. I have tried to lay out the case for both of them as I really believe they both deserve consideration. while the sequence I mentioned is sort of that its an outlier, but something you may need to do. Last I played, MTGO was still bugged and Painter doesn't work with Lattice out. And maybe I am wrong, but the timestamp should allow a Painter after Lattice to turn the world blue or black. I really like Lavaman, and will likely use him due to the curve, but it would have been short sighted of me to not mention the other synergies that Ballista has with Karn.

Solar Blaze is a thing and it does do all that. My issue is more the why do you want to do any of that? Bridge can handle most of that, and EE, and blast effects sort of clean up the rest. The reason you run Pyroclasm is due to needing a two mana answer to Elves and Death and Taxes that also happens to kill Delvers and other utility creatures. Its not a Wrath for us so much as a speed bump to buy us time.

I think the 5 fast mana and LED are better now than ever before to be honest. Instead of 3 mana on turn one we are looking for 3 and 4 mana on turn 2. You need to see that Lotus Petal, while acceleration, is so much more than that in the deck. Its color fixing, Welder food, and a means to use and abuse Karn even more. SSG is a similar card in the fact that he is almost a land and almost a creature and while he is really weak versions of both of them, the power of filling the needed role improves the decks flexibility and increases options as the game goes long. The fast mana also is critical to resolving Lattice, which while not always happening, is a nice trick for your back pocket. And yes LED is insane. We have our own version of Burning Wish. And it can occasionally give you a first turn on the play win. True story, in the league this weekend I finally did that . In the past 12 plus years playing the deck I have never had that happen. It def felt cool.

Seth

[SDBobPlissken]

I’ve been pretty happy with staying with 19 lands and playing 4 petal and 2 ssg. Does the deck definitely need the 20th land now? And if so I feel like the furnace, city, or even the 4th plateau are all viable options. I like the extra ssg because:

1. Monkey Blast/poor man’s force of will
2. Not affected by trinisphere
3. Sneaky grindstone activation
4. Grey ogre when needed
5. Can crew copter
6. Can power out Karn in the early game

I’m probably going to try the 3 pyroclasm in the board because a lot of people seem to be having success with it, but do you bring in a number of them to deal with mentor? It doesn’t seem that it can reliably kill mentor or even its tokens for that matter which is why I went with 3 sudden shocks instead and was thinking of maybe even going up to 4 in the board.

[Cyanhur]

Anyone have update mono red list with the new karn?

[Megadeus]

Anyone have update mono red list with the new karn?

I've been toying with it a bit but due to dead legacy scene locally I don't get to actually play as much

[sroncor1]

@ Monored- Most likely the old thread will be able to help you there I imagine. I know some people had been tinkering with things last I checked, although that thread may have switched to more Moms at this time. Unfortunately Jack and I have been off that variant for years now so I wouldn't know where to even start anymore. The lack of E tutor and specific hate pieces does really change the sequencing though.

@ fast mana- I think those are some really cool ideas. Thanks to MTGO being weird, we can test frequency of cards very easy by running different version of CoT. While Jack and I though the extra land was key for Karn, I think it could easily be a SSG. Often times I have found that CoT to be a two shot sol ring for the deck. Which is very good, but also a liability at times. SSG offers similar upside while also being a body which is really important once the game goes long. The testing will be important bc we do now want 6 mana at some point in the game bc Lattice is just that strong. Getting there is something that we should be questioning and testing. I actually think I will try that in my next round of testing, to see how it feels.

Some other minor tweeks are likely coming in the next couple weeks. While I have mainly playing Old School these days I am excited enough about the deck that I am looking for a larger legacy event to give Painter a go. So we will see...


Seth

[Michael Keller]

I've been toying with it a bit but due to dead legacy scene locally I don't get to actually play as much

I've been extremely active in the background readying for a larger Legacy event this coming weekend with Imperial Painter (classic) that abuses the new Karn, Goblin Welder and other shenanigans. I'll post my updated list there in a bit.

[sroncor1]

So some quick thoughts:

Miracles- This match up seems favorable. Karn's ability to just out value them is really incredible. We now have so many threats against their deck that using FoW against us is a real liability in the match ups. I am still trying to evaluate the strength of our individual cards in this match up, but as most of you can guess, Karn is just a house. I often find myself trading threats knowing that Karn is the trump card here. Save your blast effects to counter Snapcasters and JTMS. But it feels good for us.

Storm- While there are lots of variables here, this also feels favorable. Your mileage will depend on the amount of Canonist you are running. Karn's ability to turn off the LED and Lotus Petal is so nice.

Elves- This match up has gotten slightly harder due to less maindeck Canonist. The Pyroclams in the board will help, but game one can be really tough.

Dark Depths lists- Lands match ups in general seem to be improving. Karn is now making our Moon effects better, while giving us another way to lock them out. I def. need to test more against the various lists, but this feels favorable now.

Death and Taxes- I go back and forth with this list. Karn and Pyroclasm are really strong, but sometimes they just have the correct hate pieces. I think its the variance in a small sample size that has made it hard to differentiate what role we should play here. Clearly more testing needs to happen, but it feels like a 50/50 match ups where some play skill and understanding of how to deploy resources should help.

Eldrazi- Again small sample sizes, but it feels like I have lost to a bunch of first turn Chalice, second turn Thought knot. To be fair that likely wins 70% of the time, but it has felt hard to judge. I want to say it is slightly unfavorable, but I think sequencing and valuing how we get and resolve bridge may change that.

Grixis- No updates here. For all my games online, I have found Grixis match ups hard to come by. I would like to think that Karn serves much the same role as in the Miracles match up, but that is only theory, I still need to get in more games.

Show and Tell- Nothing to report here.


Seth

[Michael Keller]

I'm teetering now back towards Shortcake, but my take is of course a little different. I'll post a list in a bit. I've been grinding dozens and dozens of games with the mono red iteration, and something seems off about it.

[Mirrislegend]

@sroncor1: Thanks for the updates!


Dark Depths lists- Lands match ups in general seem to be improving. Karn is now making our Moon effects better, while giving us another way to lock them out. I def. need to test more against the various lists, but this feels favorable now.
How does Karn make Moon effects better?

[H]

How does Karn make Moon effects better?

Turns off Mox Diamonds?

[Megadeus]

@sroncor1: Thanks for the updates!


How does Karn make Moon effects better?

I guess it turns off any artifact Mana/vials that people would use to get around the moon?

[Mirrislegend]

@Megadeus, H: Thanks! You're probably correct. And that's hella spicy. I was shaky on that Magus in the SB, but now it sounds much more viable.

[sroncor1]

@ Hollywood- I would love to see what you are noodling around with at this time. My main issue anymore is more space issue at this time. Karn just gives us so many great options. I have thought about upping the count to 4, but I think that would require a reworking of the mana base along with likely wanting the 4th Copter, which I am not sure there is room in the deck for that. I have debated removing the Lavaman, and placing Ballista in the board, but the board is also very tight right now.

@Karn- Yes he shuts off the Mox and Lotus Petals and LED which helps to slow them down and makes Moon a basic lock for those lists. The more I play with Karn I see his power and how he can impact nearly every match up and that is even before we consider the Lattice lock as a solid win condition.


Hopefully more to come soon as we continue testing...
Seth

[Michael Keller]

@ Hollywood- I would love to see what you are noodling around with at this time. My main issue anymore is more space issue at this time. Karn just gives us so many great options. I have thought about upping the count to 4, but I think that would require a reworking of the mana base along with likely wanting the 4th Copter, which I am not sure there is room in the deck for that. I have debated removing the Lavaman, and placing Ballista in the board, but the board is also very tight right now.

@Karn- Yes he shuts off the Mox and Lotus Petals and LED which helps to slow them down and makes Moon a basic lock for those lists. The more I play with Karn I see his power and how he can impact nearly every match up and that is even before we consider the Lattice lock as a solid win condition.


Hopefully more to come soon as we continue testing...
Seth

It's in flux so much. It's very difficult to build with Karn because the entire deck needs to be tailored to support him.

[drude1]

So, a couple thoughts on how the meta (at least MODO meta) seems to be heading. New Karn is EVERYWHERE right now. I don't see a ton of painter but it is huge in eldrazi post and new bomberman. That being the case, I think Blood Moon is going up in value. I also think we need to reconsider cratermaker in the main as an insurance policy for karn and I think we need to consider instant speed artifact removal (eg. Abrade) to hit opponent's lattice or other Karn wish targets. Blue decks are starting to play Hurkyl's Recall for the same reason. Right now the only thing we have is blast with painter in play and that just isn't going to be good enough a lot of times.

[Mirrislegend]

Does Cratermaker beat Lattice + Karn? I think we're stuck with floating mana and casting Abrade or something of that ilk.

[Michael Keller]

Does Cratermaker beat Lattice + Karn? I think we're stuck with floating mana and casting Abrade or something of that ilk.

It's possible Phyrexian Revoker's stock would be on the rise in that case, since everyone is trying the 100s of planeswalkers they just printed.

[H]

Does Cratermaker beat Lattice + Karn? I think we're stuck with floating mana and casting Abrade or something of that ilk.

Well, you can remove Karn in response to the Lattice being played. That's really not much different than floating mana to Abrade the Lattice once it's in play, just 1 mana more expensive. But also keep in mind that if Cratermaker is in play, it can still be used to attack Karn in the event of Lattice even if you have no mana to use at that moment.

[Michael Keller]

I’m wondering if liquimetal coating is worth playing with the new karn. At that point it might also be worth playing a dack faydon. I can imagine turning opposing libraries into dudes to pyroclasm.

...actually, it’s probably too cute to be good. The new karn I can imagine being great for the deck. What I think we really need is a transformational sideboard plan, since most of the time, people saiding against a wish board assumes that the side has more of the same (artifacts in this case). Going into leyline+helm kill could catch them off guard, thinking that they’d have more time to react.


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I know there's two camps on this, but Liquimetal Coating has been absolutely disgusting in testing. It's allowed Karn to tick up to pick off lands, it turns into a 2/2, it enables Gorilla Shaman and Goblin Welder. It's just been so dynamic I'm shocked it's been as good as it is.

This is the Shortcake version I'm referring to, by the way.

[sroncor1]

I have to admit I am in the camp that does not feel Liquidmetal Coating is what we want to do. Maindeck is too tight to run in my own opinion and rarely can I think of a situation where it is my wish target of choice. Although I acknowledge that I think Hollywood is on a much different list than I am testing now. Are you still running Mom's in your list Hollywood?


@Karn- I think we have a few options for dealing with opposing Karns. Blasts, Cratermaker, Abrade, or even possibly different vehicles. the real issue will be to see how the meta shakes out. It is likely that the current uses will not be the end uses for Karn after more people take a run at him. Shortcake and IPainter in general has always been a deck that preys on the meta and needs to make card and board choices to exploit that. With that in mind we likely need to wait and see what uses Karn ends up with and then we can use the best option for us. If I was guessing right now I would say it resolves around adding another blast and adding Cratermaker into the list again.

Seth

[Mirrislegend]

I also don't think Liquidmetal Coating can fit in Shortcake. However


Liquimetal Coating has been absolutely disgusting in testing. It's allowed Karn to tick up to pick off lands

that sounds amazing for grindy matchups.

[Michael Keller]

I have to admit I am in the camp that does not feel Liquidmetal Coating is what we want to do. Maindeck is too tight to run in my own opinion and rarely can I think of a situation where it is my wish target of choice. Although I acknowledge that I think Hollywood is on a much different list than I am testing now. Are you still running Mom's in your list Hollywood?


@Karn- I think we have a few options for dealing with opposing Karns. Blasts, Cratermaker, Abrade, or even possibly different vehicles. the real issue will be to see how the meta shakes out. It is likely that the current uses will not be the end uses for Karn after more people take a run at him. Shortcake and IPainter in general has always been a deck that preys on the meta and needs to make card and board choices to exploit that. With that in mind we likely need to wait and see what uses Karn ends up with and then we can use the best option for us. If I was guessing right now I would say it resolves around adding another blast and adding Cratermaker into the list again.

Seth

My Coating list eschews all of that and focuses on the strengths of Karn. Painter and company are actually secondary in my list; it's like a bastardized version that's basically like an attrition variant that happens to run Painter combo.

[Megadeus]

My Coating list eschews all of that and focuses on the strengths of Karn. Painter and company are actually secondary in my list; it's like a bastardized version that's basically like an attrition variant that happens to run Painter combo.
Very interested to see the list after the event (I assume that's what you're holding out for). It makes sense to me that maybe run it alongside moon. Would be curious to know the # of coating. Also how the deck operates when a Karn isn't drawn or is answered. Maybe a full set of Abrade? Now you got everyone curious.

[Michael Keller]

Alls I’m saying is give it a try. I’m serious when I say it’s one of the best cards in the deck because it fills so many roles. I run two main and one in the board. Play one turn one or two or Shaman turn one or two basically wins you the game against grindy matchups and greedy keeps.

Or T1 Coating into T2 Karn ices it. Additionally, T1 Shaman if you have the play punishes so many decks right now. I know it’s risky, but from a deck building perspective I’ve enjoyed it more than hoping to get a T3 or 4 Cratermaker or Heretic (as one ofs) active. And Karn shuts down Chalice himself, so you’re already at like 6 cards to beat it.

[pettdan]

Sorry to spam but this is so awesome! Looking forward to trying some of this tech and a coming tournament report, Hollywood! Still looking for the Grixis Painter with Retrofitter Foundry report.. ;)

[sroncor1]

@ Hollywood- It def. sounds like your list has gone is a very different direction than us. I am def. interested in seeing it soon. I can see with Mox monkey that turning everything into an artifact may have upside. I think for Shortcake in general (ie no Mox Monkey) the Liquidmetal Coating is less stellar.

I may try and run through a couple leagues this weekend to get further testing in. Also, does anyone want to test and have Grixis built on MTGO. It is the one match up that I want to really test more and I still continue to struggle to get paired up against it.

Currently my focus is still working through the sequencing in general for the deck so I am only making minimal changes to the 75 cards. One of those changes will be dropping Lavaman completely. I feel that I have a fairly good understanding of how that card works in the deck. Now I need to test more pieces for that slot. I am unsure if Ballista will be in the board for the next round of testing as I also have a fairly good understanding of that cards impact. We need to get some more reps in with Cratermaker I feel along with a few others cards to try and gain a couple points against Dredge, Eldrazi, and potentially Stoneblade.

I am also considering testing the 20th land/6th fast mana spot. Currently, I am thinking the second copy of LED, second copy of SSG, 4th City, or something else. I am tentative to test to many things at once as finding the signal from the noise can be difficult, but this is sort of where I am at.

Keep painting boys, and free Ned Leeds

Seth

[Mirrislegend]

I don't have any LEDs so I'm on the 4th Smuggler's Copter instead. I feel its been good to me so far, as this deck seems to topdeck poorly so I always always want Copter.

I'm having a lot of trouble dealing with discard. Sometimes I have to keep a hand with only one or two strong cards and I just get shredded by discard. I'm dying for some card advantage. Anyone thinking of putting Karn, Scion of Urza back in the 75?

[sroncor1]

@ Mirrislegend- Discard can be rough for sure. The keys in that match up are Goblin Welder and then Karn. I am not sure why you would want the other Karn over the Great Creator. The Great Creator should be able to wish twice, giving you excellent value on the extra cards drawn. Copter and Welder should also serve as a great source of virtual CA in that match up. I think you will see that while they shred your hand, after turn 3 discard is fairly poor against you. It is at that time that our Recruiters, Welders, Copter, and Karn can really dominate. E tutor is also really helpful here. We are lucky that few decks running heavy discard have cards as powerful as Welder.

Seth

[drude1]

Yeah, welder and tutor are great against discard. Just try to leverage those cards in those matchups. I think I have the cards for grixis control so I can throw it together if you want.

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[Mirrislegend]

@ Mirrislegend- Discard can be rough for sure. The keys in that match up are Goblin Welder and then Karn. I am not sure why you would want the other Karn over the Great Creator. The Great Creator should be able to wish twice, giving you excellent value on the extra cards drawn. Copter and Welder should also serve as a great source of virtual CA in that match up. I think you will see that while they shred your hand, after turn 3 discard is fairly poor against you. It is at that time that our Recruiters, Welders, Copter, and Karn can really dominate. E tutor is also really helpful here. We are lucky that few decks running heavy discard have cards as powerful as Welder.
Seth

I was looking to run Karn Scion in addition to Great Creator. Especially because they have some synergy (Exile with silver counter can be grabbed by Great Creator). But I follow what you're saying.
It's probable that I lost so badly vs 4 color control because I sideboarded wrong and kept stuff in hand (habits from playing creature combo in Modern) that I should have just slammed onto the field, even if unprotected.
Still, I yearn for some straight card advantage in the mid- to late-game. Recruiter feels like a poor topdeck when Painter isn't threatening. I would go for Ichor Wellspring if we played 4 Welder. I don't have any other ideas.

Also, I wonder if 4 color control is even harder than Grixis Control because they can play Goyf to apply pressure (if they skipped the Goyfs and tried to beat me down with Snapcasters, Strixes, or Leovold, then I probably would have had enough time to make a comeback).

[Michael Keller]

The list, for reference:

// Imperial Painter

// 60 Maindeck
// 12 Artifact
3 Grindstone
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Great Furnace
2 Liquimetal Coating
3 Lotus Petal
1 Smuggler's Copter

// 17 Creature
3 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant
4 Imperial Recruiter
1 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Gorilla Shaman
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Ethersworn Canonist

// 1 Enchantment
1 Blood Moon

// 8 Instant
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Enlightened Tutor

// 18 Land
3 Mountain
3 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Blast Zone
1 Karn's Bastion
2 Plateau
4 Arid Mesa

// 4 Planeswalker
4 Karn, the Great Creator


// 15 Sideboard
// 11 Artifact
SB: 1 Mycosynth Lattice
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Trinisphere
SB: 1 Zuran Orb
SB: 1 Grindstone
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Meekstone
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Liquimetal Coating

// 2 Instant
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction

// 2 Sorcery
SB: 2 Pyroclasm

[Daize]

Interesting 1 copter, seems a bit out of place. Funny to see you moved on to surgical as well :-).

The direction seems interesting, since the meta seems to be shifting/jerking towards more artifacts/planeswalkers/karn.

[Megadeus]

Any thought to playing The Immortal Sun or is Lattice just better Everytime?

[CptHaddock]

Any thought to playing The Immortal Sun or is Lattice just better Everytime?

Lattice locks your opponent completely out of the game. It doesn't seem like sun really fixes any of the situations that are kind of questionable with lattice i.e. your opponent has a couple of creatures on the board when you play lattice.

[kinda]

The list, for reference:

// Imperial Painter

// 60 Maindeck
// 12 Artifact
3 Grindstone
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Great Furnace
2 Liquimetal Coating
3 Lotus Petal
1 Smuggler's Copter

// 17 Creature
3 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant
4 Imperial Recruiter
1 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Gorilla Shaman
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Ethersworn Canonist

// 1 Enchantment
1 Blood Moon

// 8 Instant
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Enlightened Tutor

// 18 Land
3 Mountain
3 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Blast Zone
1 Karn's Bastion
2 Plateau
4 Arid Mesa

// 4 Planeswalker
4 Karn, the Great Creator


// 15 Sideboard
// 11 Artifact
SB: 1 Mycosynth Lattice
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Trinisphere
SB: 1 Zuran Orb
SB: 1 Grindstone
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Meekstone
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Liquimetal Coating

// 2 Instant
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction

// 2 Sorcery
SB: 2 Pyroclasm

Run it yet?

[Megadeus]

Lattice locks your opponent completely out of the game. It doesn't seem like sun really fixes any of the situations that are kind of questionable with lattice i.e. your opponent has a couple of creatures on the board when you play lattice.

Yeah I guess that's true. I just figured that it might be good in games where you don't think Karn will stick but it's great for grindy games.

[Michael Keller]

Interesting 1 copter, seems a bit out of place. Funny to see you moved on to surgical as well :-).

The direction seems interesting, since the meta seems to be shifting/jerking towards more artifacts/planeswalkers/karn.

Copter has really been good. I may add in a second and cut a Coating for the it. But that’s TBD.

Dead serious, the format is seriously shifting that way. Winning the die roll puts you in a tremendous position with Mox Monkey.

[Megadeus]

Copter has really been good. I may add in a second and cut a Coating for the it. But that’s TBD.

Dead serious, the format is seriously shifting that way. Winning the die roll puts you in a tremendous position with Mox Monkey.

Bastion seems pretty mediocre. Only helps your own Karn and ratchet bomb. Only hurts opposing Chalices (even then it takes a couple of activations to get chalice above a # that doesn't affect you) and vials I guess? It just doesn't feel like it does enough unless I'm missing something. Also format shifting to more walkers and such is kind of why I like the thought of Immortal Sun. It's not a complete lock, but if you don't think Karn will survive it's pretty damn good

[Michael Keller]

I don’t like Bastion in there right now, either. Still optimizing the mana base.

[sroncor1]

Yeah I think a lands that arent sol or red producing probably do not have a spot in Painter, or at least in Shortcake. We are a very greedy deck mana wise and further opening yourself up to Wasteland for marginal upside seems the danger of cool things. I have to say the current manabase has felt fairly good. I was on the 20 lands for a bit but shifting that 4th City to a SSG feels solid with increased ability to maintain red mana when needed.

I def think we should be running at least 3 Copter's in our Shortcake lists. I really want 4 but I acknowledge deck constraints now make that nearly impossible.

@Hollywood- I would suggest with that many welders to up the Lotus Petal count to four. The speed is important to resolving Karn and the combo, but you just need as much fuel for the Welder. Where are you using Zuron Orb, I love the card but have found applications of it limited. But I do like exploration of any zero cost artifact with upside. You should seriously consider EE someplace. While never the strongest at what it does, its a very useful swiss army knife.

Seth

[Michael Keller]

Legacy 1K in progress in NJ (Card Titan). Just swept the Swiss without losing a game. Coating was gross. Made Top 8 and am drawing in, will follow up on the results of the T8.

[Daize]

Typical Keller. Defying everyone's concerns. Maybe because the deck is great. Maybe just because the pilot is great.

I wonder how you fare against post, and how many tutors & copter you ended up with. Good luck!

[Michael Keller]

https://i.imgur.com/hbATccv.jpg

Karn with Coating has been MVP. Strip Mining lands against Miracles in two different rounds was a thing of beauty at a zero-mana investment.

[pettdan]

@Hollywood: Awesome, congratulations!

[Michael Keller]

Lost in the T8 to Steel Stompy. Gorilla Shaman was a machine gun. But alas, lost game three on the draw. Matchup is very play-draw dependent.

[Tammit67]

Lost in the T8 to Steel Stompy. Gorilla Shaman was a machine gun. But alas, lost game three on the draw. Matchup is very play-draw dependent.

Agreed, it was a blast playing against you. Our battlefield was wild to look at

[Michael Keller]

Agreed, it was a blast playing against you. Our battlefield was wild to look at

Yeah! I had so much fun, though. Did you get there, Matt?

[Michael Keller]

I figured I would write up a small report based on yesterday's tournament at Top Deck Games's 1K Legacy Event in New Jersey. The event was well-run as usual. There were 25 players, if memory serves me correctly.

Here was the list I wound up running:

Main Deck:
4x Painter's Servant
4x Karn, the Great Creator
4x Pyroblast
4x Imperial Recruiter
3x Grindstone
3x Goblin Welder
3x Lotus Petal
2x Gorilla Shaman
2x Liquimetal Coating
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Enlightended Tutor
1x Sword of War and Peace
1x Simian Spirit Guide
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Magus of the Moon
1x Blood Moon
1x Ensnaring Bridge
4x Arid Mesa
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Mountain
2x Great Furnace
2x Plateau
1x Blast Zone
3x City of Traitors

Sideboard:
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Pyroclasm
1x Mycosynth Lattice
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Pithing Needle
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Liquimetal Coating
1x Trinisphere
1x Meekstone
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Zuran Orb
1x Ratchet Bomb
1x Grindstone

As you all know in this particular thread and the Imperial Painter thread, I've been keen on testing Karn in conjunction with other cards like Liquimetal Coating, Gorilla Shaman and obviously Mycosynth Lattice out of the sideboard. The deck felt eerily similar to a Vintage deck, to be honest.

But enough of that for now, here's a brief synopsis of the event:

Round One vs. Humans
2-0, 1-0-0

In typical Painter fashion, both of these games were relatively non-eventful. Game one involved the opponent playing out the Kitesails and other tricks, while my turn one Grindstone found its pair with a turn four Painter that sealed the game up. Keep in mind this variation was similar to the Modern iteration of Humans, so removal was relatively nonexistent.

In game two, I opened like this: Tomb, Petal, Petal, Painter, Grindstone, Welder (with another land in hand). I proceed to win the game the next turn.

Round Two vs. Miracles (Joe Brennan)
2-0, 2-0-0

Game one was a rigorous affair. After trading blows back in forth between Painter and Grindstone being countered in multiples, I proceeded to finally land Karn and obtain a Lattice. Joe proceeds to exile Karn with a Council's Judgement. He has Counterbalance in play, one card in hand. I Pyroblast the Counterbalance in the end step. It reveals Jace (I have another Karn in hand). It gets destroyed. I proceed to cast Imperial Recruiter to find Phyrexian Revoker to lockdown his Jace. He draws and casts Jace, then Ponders. I proceed to then cast Karn, and fish up a Needle - suspecting an impending Terminus to free up Jace. This was exactly what happened, and the Needle saved me. From there I untap and land Lattice and the game is over.

I was also able to Strip Mine a few of his lands early on with Coating, which was key.

Game two was quick. He opens with Island, Ponder. I open with Grindstone off a Mountain, and cast Petal. He untaps, plays a fetch and passes. I play Tomb, and then Painter. It resolves. My only open mana as mentioned was a Mountain and the Petal. He Brainstorms EOT and triggers Terminus. The trigger resolves, and he cracks his fetch (to cast it). I exile the hidden SSG in hand and activate Grindstone to finish it immediately.

Round Three vs. Miracle Blade
2-0, 3-0-0

Game one was grindy. It lasts for a long time until my opponent is depleted, has a Jace out (that is Needled from Karn) and proceeds to cast two TNNs. I have Coating out. I tick down Karn and nab a Bridge to stall his attacks. I then proceed to Strip Mine him out of the game with Coating, leaving him with no resources. From there, Karn nabbed Lattice and he conceded without me even casting it.

Game two starts with a Gorilla Shaman and a Coating. I Strip his lands out and then get (eventually) to Painter (protected by Sword) and Grindstone. That was it.

R4 and R5: ID
3-0-2

I wind up in sixth after final standings are printed. Was looking for the play in the Top 8, oh well.

Quarterfinals vs. Steel Stompy (Tammit)

Matt is the three seed, so he gets the play. He goes turn one City into Chalice. My hand had Gorilla Shaman, so as I mentioned: very play dependent in this MU. Karn would have been nice, but he never showed up. I proceed to durdle for a few turns and he wins off attacks.

Game two I open with Gorilla Shaman. I proceed to blow up his artifacts while he attempts to stabilize with attackers. I finally land Goblin Welder to rid the Revoker he had off the board, swap it with Mox Opal, blow up the Opal with Shaman to keep his mana down and Grindstone away.

Game three wasn't spectacular. I suppose it was a loose keep. I had a Bridge and some three-cost stuff, but I couldn't land anything relevant. Eventually the attackers just get there, and neither Welder or Karn show up. I did have Karn in hand, but it was eventually too late. My SSG even got Revokered!

Overall, the deck was amazing. It seemed vastly improved over traditional Painter lists and far more controlling in nature. I was very satisfied with the list, although some options out of the board I suppose could be tweaked.

The Blast Zone wasn't relevant. I think it's an okay card, but I wonder if the Ratchet Bomb in the board is just good enough. Time will tell there.

Liquimetal Coating was more relevant than I ever thought it would be. I had the ability to tempo out the early game with Shaman and Coating, or go the Crucible-Strip route against control decks mid to late game, which I did without running a six mana artifact into Spell Pierce. I had multiple Coatings in play against the Miracle Blade opponent, so I could blow up a land during my turn with Karn and then "Null Rod" another during his upkeep. It was amazing.

I was on the fence about Copter. I think it belongs at minimum as a one-of, but Sword of War and Peace was just as good to protect creatures, punch in damage and gain some life. For me, it's flex. But I think one Copter is where I stand at the moment, since for two mana the investment with Shaman and Karn is better with Coating than tapping a creature and watching another get Bolted or Plowed.

[schweinefettmann]

Just curious; are those plateaus specifically just for that 1-of canonist? Is it really that backbreaking in the deck to weaken our mana so much?

Congrats on your finish tho! I’m looking forward to trying your list now. I tried an earlier edition, but wasn’t very impressed with the liquimetal coating. Maybe like you said, it’s more to do with the starting hands.




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[Michael Keller]

Before the event I had two, but opted to cut one Canonist. In hindsight, one may have been correct. That or having a second Canonist in the board.

Enlightened Tutor is still there, keep in mind.

[Michael Keller]

Typical Keller. Defying everyone's concerns. Maybe because the deck is great. Maybe just because the pilot is great.

I wonder how you fare against post, and how many tutors & copter you ended up with. Good luck!

I haven’t tested Post much, but I did run into a few lists online and the land destruction aspect of the deck was incredibly relevant. I think Karn there was big, too.

[Tammit67]

Yeah! I had so much fun, though. Did you get there, Matt?

Lost to burn in top 4 after the split. Price of progress and ancient tomb really hurt me

[crowe_1]

What’s the thought process behind Ratchet Bomb over Engineered Explosives here?

[Michael Keller]

You’re expending two mana to blow up Chalice or tokens either way. Maybe Gaddock Teeg has some random applications, but overall, the mana investment in a two-color deck comes down to blowing up CMC=2 permanents with either.

[RingoDeathStarr]

Hey dudes, new Karn has brought me back from the dead, at least to play on MODO. Happy to be back, seems like a powerful tool for us. Does this group use a discord as well? If so, can someone shoot me an invite? Thanks!

[colo]

You’re expending two mana to blow up Chalice or tokens either way. Maybe Gaddock Teeg has some random applications, but overall, the mana investment in a two-color deck comes down to blowing up CMC=2 permanents with either.


Engineered Explosives has random upsides of its own, though: You can use sunburst to effectively get around Thalia, Guardian of Thraben's CC tax, and I've also cast it for 0 into a Chancellor of the Annex pre-game effect to be able to resolve my actual hate piece T1. Also, it's Goblin Welder fodder for 0 mana. (In other Painter lists, it's also recruitable via Trinket Mage.)

[pettdan]

Hey dudes, new Karn has brought me back from the dead, at least to play on MODO. Happy to be back, seems like a powerful tool for us. Does this group use a discord as well? If so, can someone shoot me an invite? Thanks!

Here you are: https://discord.gg/kyEHABS

[Michael Keller]

Engineered Explosives has random upsides of its own, though: You can use sunburst to effectively get around Thalia, Guardian of Thraben's CC tax, and I've also cast it for 0 into a Chancellor of the Annex pre-game effect to be able to resolve my actual hate piece T1. Also, it's Goblin Welder fodder for 0 mana. (In other Painter lists, it's also recruitable via Trinket Mage.)

I'll give you that. However, a few things:

1. Since Karn is in the deck as a four-of, there's really no reason to run it as a one-of in the main when it's easier to retrieve out of the sideboard. I know everyone's list is different, but I'm only running two Enlightened Tutor main so four Karn can nab it easier.

2. I'll agree it's easier to get around Thalia's tax. However, under those circumstances, wouldn't it be better to grab an Ensnaring Bridge against Death and Taxes, in the event the opponent puts a Phyrexian Revoker into play? I guess it depends on how many creatures you run. If you can deplete your hand faster and have the ability to stop attacks with Bridge, that's probably better.

3. As for Chancellor, I wouldn't play EE main in this list. Since you're playing with Simian Spirit Guide and Lotus Petals, I think the corner-case scenario where you'd use it to knock out that trigger would be extremely rare.

4. It is Welder fodder for zero mana, sure.

[Megadeus]

Have you found 20 lands + 4 one shot Mana sources to be enough? I get that flooding sucks, but I feel like it can be hard to cast Karn on time.

[Mirrislegend]

@Megadeus:
I think that's a common concern. I'm on 5x one-shot mana sources and Karn has come down reliably. On the other hand, I'm still on 4x Copter, so I can prep for him more reliably.

[Michael Keller]

Have you found 20 lands + 4 one shot Mana sources to be enough? I get that flooding sucks, but I feel like it can be hard to cast Karn on time.

I haven't had any issues casting Karn. He doesn't need to be powered out turn two; with seven Sol lands that produce two mana each, he's a reliable turn-three play with twenty mana and four one-shot resources. I mean, you could theoretically add another land, which I've entertained over a third Petal, but I'm not sure yet.

[L10]

I was on the fence about Copter. I think it belongs at minimum as a one-of, but Sword of War and Peace was just as good to protect creatures, punch in damage and gain some life. For me, it's flex. But I think one Copter is where I stand at the moment, since for two mana the investment with Shaman and Karn is better with Coating than tapping a creature and watching another get Bolted or Plowed.
What about SoLaS? Gives life gain, protection from Plow/Push, and regrowth creatures that were countered/discarded/milled/looted.

[Michael Keller]

What about SoLaS? Gives life gain, protection from Plow/Push, and regrowth creatures that were countered/discarded/milled/looted.

I like War and Peace better right now because of how impactful it can be. To be able to gain protection from red (to punch through red creatures and gain life), Lightning Bolt, and protection from white with Swords to Plowshares and D/T creatures with additional damage, it swings the game more.

[schweinefettmann]

K.command is red, right? That really sells it for me. I seriously hate that card.

Pro black can be relevant too I suppose, but some number of black removal are edict effects, and that goes around protection.

I was testing sword of the meek and thopter foundry for a while, but that’s too slow, generally. The life gain isn’t pointless, but it’s not amazing either.


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[Michael Keller]

Yeah, that’s a bit of an investment. Both in deckbuilding and mana.

[shonenkakumei]

The list, for reference:

// Imperial Painter

// 60 Maindeck
// 12 Artifact
3 Grindstone
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Great Furnace
2 Liquimetal Coating
3 Lotus Petal
1 Smuggler's Copter

// 17 Creature
3 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant
4 Imperial Recruiter
1 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Gorilla Shaman
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Ethersworn Canonist

// 1 Enchantment
1 Blood Moon

// 8 Instant
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Enlightened Tutor

// 18 Land
3 Mountain
3 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Blast Zone
1 Karn's Bastion
2 Plateau
4 Arid Mesa

// 4 Planeswalker
4 Karn, the Great Creator


// 15 Sideboard
// 11 Artifact
SB: 1 Mycosynth Lattice
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Trinisphere
SB: 1 Zuran Orb
SB: 1 Grindstone
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Meekstone
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Liquimetal Coating

// 2 Instant
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction

// 2 Sorcery
SB: 2 Pyroclasm

Congrats on your recent nice finishes. I love the list. Liquimetal Coating seems really fun.

A couple of card-choice questions.

I was wondering about the Meekstone--has it been worth the slot in the SB in addition to Bridge? What match-ups did you have in mind for that one?

Also--no Ballista in the 75? And the SB Surgicals--are those there (over additional T. Crypt or Relic) as a hedge against Reanimator or for exiling a shuffle creature (Emrakul)?

I'm completely new to Painter, and sussing things out before I try it out soon.

[Michael Keller]

I was wondering about the Meekstone--has it been worth the slot in the SB in addition to Bridge? What match-ups did you have in mind for that one?

TNN and other huge creatures may come down, and catching them is important sometimes. Meekstone is phenomenally good against decks like UB Shadow and the like, just locking them down for one mana.


Also--no Ballista in the 75? And the SB Surgicals--are those there (over additional T. Crypt or Relic) as a hedge against Reanimator or for exiling a shuffle creature (Emrakul)?

Turn zero interaction is a must. Otherwise, oftentimes, you can just lose outright.

Also not a fan of WB, but that’s just me.

[sroncor1]

@ Hollywood- Congrats on the recent successes. I have to say I do love Mox monkey in a vacuum, but I am still a little hesitant to go all in on that plan. I do think you should up the Copter count in general as its often our best first turn play still in the deck. The card continues to impress me, and to be honest the only reason I am not running 4 at the current moment is more due to space in the deck at this time. I know it dies to bolt but so does Monkey, and we cant discount the upside the card has. Filtering is huge, but it has continually been strong at removing planeswalkers and forcing removal, allowing our scarecrows and Welders to live longer.

I was able to get in some testing this weekend, and the deck still feels really good. I will hopefully have some slow days at work this week and will be able to compose a better response and deck write up for the newest version of Shortcake. I have been slow to write up actual match ups and approaches, with sequencing bc there is so much we have been working on and figuring out. But at this time I feel like it may be helpful to share some of the early thoughts and findings with others to help move the testing along. With that in mind, please remember that much of this is in flux. Jack and I spoke for like an hour last night about small tweaks to the list, working to address the wish board, the fast mana counts, the potential 20th land, and some sideboard needs. I have finally come around to cutting Lavaman from the list in favor of Cratermaker. Jack is also correct in that we need Ballista in the board. These are very slight changes which will make D and T a push, slightly weaken the deck against Elves, while giving a small amount of upside against Show and Tell, while further strengthening us against various stompy shells and Eldrazi lists in general.

Seth

[Mirrislegend]

I was able to get in some testing this weekend, and the deck still feels really good. I will hopefully have some slow days at work this week and will be able to compose a better response and deck write up for the newest version of Shortcake. I have been slow to write up actual match ups and approaches, with sequencing bc there is so much we have been working on and figuring out. But at this time I feel like it may be helpful to share some of the early thoughts and findings with others to help move the testing along. With that in mind, please remember that much of this is in flux. Jack and I spoke for like an hour last night about small tweaks to the list, working to address the wish board, the fast mana counts, the potential 20th land, and some sideboard needs. I have finally come around to cutting Lavaman from the list in favor of Cratermaker. Jack is also correct in that we need Ballista in the board. These are very slight changes which will make D and T a push, slightly weaken the deck against Elves, while giving a small amount of upside against Show and Tell, while further strengthening us against various stompy shells and Eldrazi lists in general.

Seth

So what 75 are you testing now?

[H]

I played Michael Keller's list for a small FNM. Went 2-1, but most of the games felt very winnable.

Round 1, lost 1-2 to Miracles. Game 1 I get stuck on lands at some point, I think I mulled to 6 here, my Copter and Servant gets Terminused and I run out of resources before Mentor kills me. Game 2, I mull again, but land turn 1 Karn off Tomb and two Petals. Since I can't realistically cast Lattice any time soon, I get Coating, my opponent Brainstorms, and when that resolves scoops. Game 3, I think I keep a decent 7, double Grindstone and a Karn. I play the Stones, hoping to bait a Force, but he has Needle and put it on them. Karn then gets Forced, but I resolve a Servant. Unfortunately, I am short on mana. He tries to StP the Painter, but I blast. When I try another Blast the Needle, he has Force again. I guess I should have let the Swords resolve, but I'm not sure I win in that case anyway.

Round 2, 2-1 win vs. Goblins. Game 1, fast combo, turn 3. Game 2 goes long, I get a Karn but am short on mana, so I try for Bridge. He ends up drawing 3 things (including a Grudge) and basically I can't keep any Artifacts on the board. Game 3 I mull to an OK hand, end up using Karn for a Stone and winning when I top deck a SSG to play Painter, Stone and activate all in the same turn (3).

Round 3, 2-0 vs. UB Tezz/ThopterSword. Game 1 I manage to get a Revoker on Tezz, AOB and my opponent has 2 in hand. He gets Topter and Sword plys Academy Ruins, but I get Karn which gets Forced. I draw a Bridge naturally and resolve it, then empty my hand. I end up winning the top-deck war with an eventual Painter and Grindstone. Game 2 he trun one locks me out with a Chalice on 1. Unfortunately for him, he never draws a blue source, and resolve Copter and Servant.

I feel like maybe the deck does need one more land, not sure, small sample size and all. Otherwise, the deck felt very good. If the London Mulligan comes through, I might play this more often too. Mox Monkey definitely got some side-glances and a few laughs. Was definitely fun though.

[sroncor1]

Creatures

4 Imperial Recruiters
4 Painters Servant
3 Goblin Welder
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Goblin Cratermaker
1 SSG

Spells

4 Pyroblast
2 REB
3 Grindstone
3 Smuggler’s Copter
3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Karn, the Great Creator
2 LED
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Blood Moon

Mana

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Mountain
3 Plateau
5 fetch lands
1 Great Furnace
4 Lotus Petal

Sideboard

3 Pyroclams
2 Surgical Extraction
1 REB
1 EE
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Lattice
1 Grindstone
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Walking Ballista
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Relic of Progentis
1 Magus of the Moon

I think that is a reasonable start. We have dropped some of the tutor targets from the board as we just didn’t need them. The additional blast effect is for Miracles and Show and Tell. Ballista in the board is a way to maximize the wish board while creating space in the main deck. Cratermaker becomes our new swiss army knife which feels ok, giving us broad coverage while helping fight chalice while never being terrible. It is likely as the meta adjusts, we may need a proactive plan to fight Karns in the future. But that is something we will address when it comes up, but we should keep that in the back of our minds.

The other thing of note is the additional LED. With Karn I have loved having the utility of LED. I am not sold on the card just yet but its such a powerful spell we should explore its full potential. The sixth fast mana/20th land slot is something that we are still very much testing at this point. Jack is testing a 2nd SSG, and there is sound reasoning behind its inclusion. I have found that the creature count is fine for crewing so far since we cut a copter and added Karn, but that concern along with the value of a body and a tuturable source of mana is something to consider.
As mentioned above, I will try and draft better primer for the newish list. I will try to at least include some sideboarding approaches, along with at least a couple sentences about strategies for the various top decks. It is unlikely I will ever write up what hands to keep as that decision is very fluid and at such a high level I would likely capture it poorly in a post.

Seth

[Mirrislegend]

What about a 4th Karn? I've heard various people say he overperforms for them constantly.

[Michael Keller]

I think it’s wrong, personally, to run less than four. The card is ultra-dynamic in this archetype, and having multiples isn’t that bad in the event the first gets countered.

[sroncor1]

@ Karn- I admit that the correct number may be 4. At this time we are still testing 3 due to the constraints he does places on the mana. He is fantastic though, so I am def. open to upping the total count. The real issue with that would require a re-evaluation o the mana base along with what to cut to fit him in. The easy first cut is likely one of the blast effects, although they also have been very strong, especially with the influx of new planeswalkers. I think at this time we are still working through the correct number. As an aside, he is fucking insane with LED.

Seth

[sroncor1]

@ Mirrislegend- I think those are two different questions. Karn is either good enough or not, and then it comes down to how many. I think early testing has shown that the card is def. good enough for the deck. Now the question is how many copies is optimal for us. I think this is the part we are trying to work through. Currently, I am testing 3 and it has felt good. Although I have to say I sort of want to draw him more. I will likely do some testing with 4 copies in the near future, likely after we settle on a more clearly defined sideboard and approach to each match up. At that point it will be a littel easier to judge his overall impact on the game state.

LED needs to be evaluated independently from the number of Karns. In the past LED was always fringe playable in the deck, mainly bc it worked well with Painter and we did run a tutor where we could sometimes leverage the card. I never found it inherently that compelling to run in that situation as it was dead too often. Having some number of "Burning Wish" style plays changes that dynamic. Now we go from 4 tutors to abuse the LED to 4+x (Recruiters and some number of Karn) along with the upside of the Painter/Grindstone interaction. It is the inclusion of Karn that truly makes LED viable in the deck. the increased speed is nice as is the interaction with Recruiter and Welder. But now we can also use it to cast substantial artifacts while helping to protect a win condition. It is these uses that have pushed the card into a nice component of the deck with immense upside.

I would say that as long as you are on 2 plus Karn, LED would be the correct fit for the deck as your tutor count feels sufficient at 6. By the nature of the way Karn was designed he sort of wants to be a 3 plus though due to the need to make a sideboard to truly take advantage of his utility. So I think the 2 questions are different yet linked. Hopefully this helps, but in short yes you should run Karn, likely 3 or more, and there should be some number of LED in your deck greater than zero, the rest is still being worked out.

Seth

[Davek]

As a noob with this deck i think i need more explanations about the concrete uses for LED because to me it always seems like an "all in" card where you're risking your whole hand in attempt to resolve a key spell

[drude1]

As a noob with this deck i think i need more explanations about the concrete uses for LED because to me it always seems like an "all in" card where you're risking your whole hand in attempt to resolve a key spell

That certainly can be true, although LED in this deck can play other roles as well. First, sometimes you just need to put a card in your hand into the graveyard. For example, say I have a welder and grindstone on board with a painter in hand. If I play an LED, that is a potential instant speed win even with no mana up. I play LED, crack it, activate grindstone and weld in painter. With the new Karn, you can wish for something crack LED to play it or wish for something and crack LED with welder out to just swap whatever you wished for into play.

What you are talking about is when you have early grindstone and painter on the board and a fist full of cards and you just YOLO your combo. This will come up from time to time, particularly early in the game where you can etutor for the LED and potentially go off turn 2 or something. There are times where LED is the worst draw in your deck, but it does have potential to do broken things. We have been playing around with the card for a long time. But with new Karn, the card definitely becomes more intriguing.

[Michael Keller]

I haven’t been impressed with it in testing. In a four- Welder build with Faithless Looting and a few dedicated targets, it’s certainly more dynamic.

I guess my point is, what for three mana is worth getting with Karn? Grindstone?

EDIT: New enemy Canopy lands. RW one - think it’s worth a slot?

[Megadeus]

I haven’t been impressed with it in testing. In a four- Welder build with Faithless Looting and a few dedicated targets, it’s certainly more dynamic.

I guess my point is, what for three mana is worth getting with Karn? Grindstone?

EDIT: New enemy Canopy lands. RW one - think it’s worth a slot?
Best 3 Mana thing to get is bridge because you can cast it off just the LED plus it makes you immediately hellbent for the lock. I was thinking maybe this deck wants 1 or 2 of the RW land, but man with tomb the lifeloss can add up

[drude1]

I haven’t been impressed with it in testing. In a four- Welder build with Faithless Looting and a few dedicated targets, it’s certainly more dynamic.

I guess my point is, what for three mana is worth getting with Karn? Grindstone?

EDIT: New enemy Canopy lands. RW one - think it’s worth a slot?The other situation is that you might push Karn out with fast Mana and then need LED the next turn to play a lattice, etc.


Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[sroncor1]

@ Hollywood- Its not just 3 mana, but could be six. That is the key. Yes it allows the 3 mana for the grindstone win, but with Karn you can easily cast our bigger threats. I have found the card to be really strong as I think we can leverage it in many ways.

Yes the card does more than just mana. I have also used it to get under bridge, ensuring my Karn can not be attacked.

Seth

[Michael Keller]

How is it six if you’re activating it in response to Karn’s ability? That’s only three. Are you meaning if there’s two on the table? I see what it can do here, I’m just wondering if, since it’s really a bad topdeck more often than not, where we want to be. We’re not really exploiting it - LED is a card you definitely want to exploit.

[Mirrislegend]

Anyone have any opinions on 19 land vs 20 land, 1 SSG vs 2 SSG, 3 Karn vs 4 Karn? I've got some flex slots (no LED, :cry:) and I'm trying to figure out how to use them.

[Daize]

Share a list and it'll be easier to put any kind of advice into context! And maybe state what you feel uncomfortable with i.e. matchups, lines of play, what's your meta like

[Mirrislegend]

Mine looks almost identical to Seth's:

Maindeck (58 cards):
4 Imperial Recruiters
4 Painters Servant
3 Goblin Welder
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Goblin Cratermaker
1 SSG

4 Lotus Petal
3 Grindstone
3 Smuggler’s Copter

4 Pyroblast
2 REB
3 Enlightened Tutor

3 Karn, the Great Creator
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Blood Moon

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Mountain
3 Plateau
5 fetch lands
1 Great Furnace

Sideboard:
3 Pyroclams
2 Surgical Extraction
1 REB
1 EE
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Lattice
1 Grindstone
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Walking Ballista
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Relic of Progentis
1 Magus of the Moon

This week's flex slots:
1 Great Furnace
1 Karn, the Great Creator

Last week my flex slots were 1 Great Furnace (20th land) and 1 Smuggler's Copter. I was hoping the looting of 4x Copter would offset the high land count, but that didn't work out.

My primary concerns are speed and consistency. It seems like I can never race anyone: sometimes I have the combo pieces but not the resources to safely resolve and activate them, or I have the combo pieces but the mana is too slow, or I have the mana resources but no combo pieces, etc etc.

The 2nd SSG (6th fast mana) over the 20th land might be worthwhile. We'll have to see how Karn performs (I rarely drew him during last week's matches).

I'm considering trimming 1 SB Pyroclasm for 1 SB Sulfur Elemental. I really hate losing to Mentor tokens and its nice to crush DnT.

It's possible I can get my hands on an LED in time for this weekend. In which case I'll have even tougher decisions to make!

[shonenkakumei]

I played Kapn's list last Friday--my first outing with any Painter deck. I went 3-0 then split (2-1 vs. MUD, 2-0 vs. White Bomberman--got lucky there as opponent mulled to 5 in game 2 and I lost a practice game afterwards, and 2-1 vs. U/B Reanimator). Deck felt great!

Any thoughts on a second LED in the sideboard? The singleton in the main deck felt great to me, and having the option of closing the game just from just Karn +1 turn seems great, since one issue the deck might have is needing to mull. While Painter+Stone is only a two card combo, in a longer tournament having the option of having 3 "one-card combos" in the main deck might help smooth out variance? Obviously it is a tradeoff with a "real" sideboard card or additional wish target though...

[drude1]

I played Kapn's list last Friday--my first outing with any Painter deck. I went 3-0 then split (2-1 vs. MUD, 2-0 vs. White Bomberman--got lucky there as opponent mulled to 5 in game 2 and I lost a practice game afterwards, and 2-1 vs. U/B Reanimator). Deck felt great!

Any thoughts on a second LED in the sideboard? The singleton in the main deck felt great to me, and having the option of closing the game just from just Karn +1 turn seems great, since one issue the deck might have is needing to mull. While Painter+Stone is only a two card combo, in a longer tournament having the option of having 3 "one-card combos" in the main deck might help smooth out variance? Obviously it is a tradeoff with a "real" sideboard card or additional wish target though...I play one LED main and one in the SB myself and I love it. I also play 4 x Karn main though. Karn get LeD then get lattice is nice.

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[sroncor1]

So Goblin Engineer looks awesome. I think it opens up a lot of choices for our deck moving forward. My only complaint is that we were already still trying to tune and determine lines of play and now this sort of blows everything up. Oh well, this is a card I never could have imagined wizards printing. I imagine that we will undergo many additions and changes over the next month but after speaking with Jack I think I will immediately start testing 3 of these guys in my list. I am thinking -Canonist, -Cratermaker, -something, +3 Goblin Engineers.

Welder still has a place in the deck. For mana considerations he still has immense value and advantage over this new dude. Likewise, E tutor still is strong due to speed, flexibility, and the fact that the card comes to hand as you all know untapping with Welder doesn't happen as much as you want it to. There are some strong points to dropping white in the deck, and we will likely have to explore them. On the surface, dropping white might slightly strengthen the mana base, as a cost of decreased speed and options. LED may lose some value without E tutor as the ability to E tutor for it and just win is a nice little option for your back pocket. However, it would allow us to up the Great Furnace count and basic count allowing the welder effects to be better. Dropping white would change the storm hate and the ability to really lean on a singleton Blood Moon. Currently I do not think we want more than 1 moon in the main, so that would effectively remove moon form the maindeck, which may or may not be ok. These are just initial ramblings, but I do like the option of what this card allows.

Its funny, we bitched so long that Wizards just fucked red and Painter and now the last two sets have given us incredible cards.

Seth

[Kap'n Cook]

So Goblin Engineer looks awesome. I think it opens up a lot of choices for our deck moving forward. My only complaint is that we were already still trying to tune and determine lines of play and now this sort of blows everything up. Oh well, this is a card I never could have imagined wizards printing. I imagine that we will undergo many additions and changes over the next month but after speaking with Jack I think I will immediately start testing 3 of these guys in my list. I am thinking -Canonist, -Cratermaker, -something, +3 Goblin Engineers.

Welder still has a place in the deck. For mana considerations he still has immense value and advantage over this new dude. Likewise, E tutor still is strong due to speed, flexibility, and the fact that the card comes to hand as you all know untapping with Welder doesn't happen as much as you want it to. There are some strong points to dropping white in the deck, and we will likely have to explore them. On the surface, dropping white might slightly strengthen the mana base, as a cost of decreased speed and options. LED may lose some value without E tutor as the ability to E tutor for it and just win is a nice little option for your back pocket. However, it would allow us to up the Great Furnace count and basic count allowing the welder effects to be better. Dropping white would change the storm hate and the ability to really lean on a singleton Blood Moon. Currently I do not think we want more than 1 moon in the main, so that would effectively remove moon form the maindeck, which may or may not be ok. These are just initial ramblings, but I do like the option of what this card allows.

Its funny, we bitched so long that Wizards just fucked red and Painter and now the last two sets have given us incredible cards.

Seth

Piggybacking with some more thoughts and questions about Goblin Engineer:

1) Splashing white? If we chop the E-tutors, then instantly the singleton Blood Moon needs to be considered while the LED would likely go. From a mono-red perspective, you would either have to add moons back up to 3+ if you want the effect, otherwise the singleton gets chopped entirely. The mana would only improve from the sense of running less fetchlands, since going up to 3 or 4 Great Furnace would likely be correct. With how much tutor flexibility between Engineer and Karn, mono-red is certainly an option, maybe even correct, and I wouldn't blame anyone for wanting to start there. I really don't have an idea of where I want to start either.

2) How does this affect the number of Welders? My initial reaction was that he just replaces and is better. He is recruitable to play through chalice and tutors the missing combo piece for a win the next turn. Also is great to be put in off show and tell to grab bridge, or just as an entomb value piece against storm for canonist/trinisphere. I am not sure though what the right place is for him, meaning I don't think he is a welder substitute. Engineer essentially supercharges OG welder and opens up Turn 1 Welder, Turn 2 Engineer lines. We have always operated under the assumption that we will never have Welder active, and if he does manage to live for a turn then we have a ton of super explosive plays available. I think Engineer falls into the same category. I am not sure how often we can expect either of these guys to stay alive, but obviously it is worth going for it.

3) Space and how many? I don't think Cratermaker is necessary maindeck anymore since his primary purpose was to be a chalice bear with random upside everywhere else. Engineer beats chalice by himself. Since he is also the entomb, Seth and I were debating this morning and are in semi-agreement that one of the potential spots is the 2nd canonist and going back down to 1, since the virtual ways to find it are still increasing. That is two slots right away without affecting the curve at all. I still think copter is amazing, and will get even better with this new addition.

4) It's a good time to be painting. We have the most tutors of any deck in Legacy. Confirmed tier √-1

5) #FreeNedleeds

[Megadeus]

Card is sick. I'll definitely be testing it probably start as a 2 of in Mono Red.

[CptHaddock]

Oops all welders and tutors

[Soldier of Fortune]

Wow. I think we definitely play this in conjunction with the Welder. With this and E. Tutor, would we still need Recruiter? Def not all four, right?

[Mirrislegend]

Wow. I think we definitely play this in conjunction with the Welder. With this and E. Tutor, would we still need Recruiter? Def not all four, right?

I think we cannot get rid of Recruiter. It adds too much consistency. However, I think 3 Recruiter, 3 Engineer, and 2 Welder is a real possibility. I'm not sure I could ever see us playing less than 3 Recruiter.

[sroncor1]

@ Recruiter- You still want 4 of the card. We don't want to drop card advantage tutors that fit our curve and improve consistency. More tutors and answers only strengthen the list, by reducing variance and increasing reach and options. Cutting a Recruiter would be counter to this. While the new goblin is cool, it is an Entomb, not a Trinket Mage or E tutor. We still need to reliably get the spell out of the graveyard and into play. Relying on dudes that die to everything can sometimes lead to failure so you still need to balance that as you build the deck. Recruiter is still one of the best cards in the deck bc it is so unred. this new welder actually allows Recruiter to finally grab Grindstone in a round about way. That is amazing, but the Entomb effect doesn't negate Recruiter, if anything it places more importance on the card bc we want to abuse Welder and the Engineer more going forward. And in the land of bolts and STP, finding more of them or Painters is too huge.


Seth

[Mirrislegend]

I generally agree. My primary reason for suggesting possible cutting of 1 Recruiter is strictly for space reasons.

Do you think Engineer completely replaces Welder? 0 Welder once Engineer is legal?

[Megadeus]

Engineer makes welder better imo. I think I'm mono red I'm gonna start on 3 welder 2 engineer

[L10]

I doubt Goblin Engineer would replace Goblin Welder. Goblin Welder is better on curve, and does not require mana for activation. Also, you can bait Welder activation, forcing your opponent to use graveyard hate, and not losing the card on board. Goblin Engineer forces you to sacrifice the artifact first. Both cards have merits. I am planning to test two copies of Goblin Engineer in mono-red.

[Milo687]

I put painter on the bench a little bit after top was banned, I started piecing it back together and the last couple of months have felt like Christmas! So pumped to get back to painting.

I have been reading through some of what I missed (thanks guys for keeping the dream alive even when it was rough) is the general idea behind cutting moon effects is due to the increase of basics, or due to waiting more proactive cards?

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[sroncor1]

@ Mirrislegend- about Welder, I want to echo and support what L10 said. We may end up cutting back on the number (although I don't think so). The casting cost and mana requirement are serious issues between the cards. While I am unsure where we end up, I can guarantee (new card reveals not withstanding) that the correct number of Welders in the deck is greater than or equal to 1 and the same can be said for the Engineer. I am included to try and endorse 3 each as they really serve as a compliment to one another rather than a replacement.

Our real questions I think are as follows:

1. What importance do we place on Blood Moon and its similar effects moving forward? This is a strong part of if and how we keep E tutor in the deck.

2. What role does E tutor have in the deck? This is more in the utility of the spell and the lines that it opens.

3. How can we best use the Engineer in the Shortcake shell? This is the part where we differ from I Painter as we still want minimal lock pieces and still want to focus on the combo kill. Its interactions and roles with existing cards will be importnat to understand. In theory he allows us to be more consistent, and resilient all at once. Both him and Welder make Copter stronger, meaning we likely want at least 3 going forward.

4. The role of white in the deck moving forward? This will hinge on the answers of the previous questions. there are many moving pieces affecting this decision. More Welder effects makes Great Furnace continue to gain value. In current lists it is hard to really run more than one, so upping that count would require cutting into fetch lands or Plateaus. Canonist can be replaced by other effects with similar value. Fetchlands are less important now that we have completely moved away from the Lavaman.

My gut tells me Blood Moon, and the speed and utility of E tutor are still incredible strengths of the deck and we need to maintain them going forward. If that is the case, then we really only need to focus on question 3. But I think we need to consider the first 2 questions.

But we always want 4 Recruiters and we should strive to increase the consistency of the deck, not decrease it. While this new goblin seems very strong we need to test it. And while I think it will have a nice impact on our deck, it is unlikely as big a game changer or strong as Karn is.

Seth

[Michael Keller]

I would never cut Blood Moon entirely from the deck. It’s a one-card combo that just wins games. In a vacuum, it’s probably the most powerful card in the entire deck.

The Engineer is cool, but I’d only run one. I still think Welder is far superior, regardless of the existence of Chalice of the Void. Although, this is anecdotal, because I’ve never played with it before.

[Megadeus]

To those wondering about the strengths of moon right now, this past weekend I played against Miracles and blade both having 6 or more basics and moon was incredibly powerful. It makes it very hard for them to find white Mana and their white cards are really the only cards you care about. Even if they find white some of those decks lean on councils judgement a bit more than they should and cutting them from double white is also great

[sroncor1]

@ Blood Moon- Yeah I figure its worth keeping moon in the deck. But I also think its a real question we should ask as we work through the next version. Ironically if we remove Blood Moon it may make the mono red route better for us. I am not really convinced, but we should still consider it for completeness.

Seth

[Mirrislegend]

I'm glad to see that the consensus is pro-Blood Moon. My issue is: 1 or 2 Blood Moon effects in the 75?

The arrangement for 2 that I liked the most was 1 Blood Moon maindeck and 1 Magus of the Moon in the SB. For matchups where Blood Moon is really important, Magus is the ideal SB choice (post board: 1 Blood Moon + 3 Etutor +1 Magus + 4 Recruiter).

However, I've started seeing lists that have 1 Blood Moon maindeck and nothing else. I'm not a fan but SB slots are especially precious due to the wishboard, so I suppose it makes sense.

Thoughts?

[Michael Keller]

I do one and one: Blood Moon and Magus. Enlightened Tutor grabs one, while Recruiter grabs the other.

[Kap'n Cook]

I'm glad to see that the consensus is pro-Blood Moon. My issue is: 1 or 2 Blood Moon effects in the 75?

The arrangement for 2 that I liked the most was 1 Blood Moon maindeck and 1 Magus of the Moon in the SB. For matchups where Blood Moon is really important, Magus is the ideal SB choice (post board: 1 Blood Moon + 3 Etutor +1 Magus + 4 Recruiter).

However, I've started seeing lists that have 1 Blood Moon maindeck and nothing else. I'm not a fan but SB slots are especially precious due to the wishboard, so I suppose it makes sense.

Thoughts?


The short answer to all of the questions about testing and numbers is that we really don't know what will or won't work yet, we've barely even had time to properly test Karn.

In the greater context of the deck, you have to remember that 'new' Shortcake is only a little more than a year old.

For example, when I first started painting, Seth, Hollywood, and the others (rip Drew) had already been playing for four years, testing and refining the OG imperial lists. It was a lot easier to take their tuned lists and start jamming games to learn lines.

Because of that, initial experimentation with the white splash was also accelerated since their base list was already so strong. This is another reason why the 4 top lists never really took off. The deck was based around Blood Moon and its ability to carry games, and it's also important to remember what the different metas were like at each point in time. When moon was plan 1a or 1b, spinning top turn after turn with only Recruiters and Grindstones for topdeck manipulation wasn't the best place to be.

So back to now, even though Shortcake has technically been around for 6+ years now, the non-top Copter iterations are barely a year old, Karn has been out for less than a month, and on top of it all Engineer is another card that will demand space in the deck.

Seth mentioned it earlier, but for years on end we didn't get any real printings. Some sideboard cards here and there sure, or a singleton recruiter target to test or whatever the fancy new red planeswalker was at the time. That gave everyone a lot of time to really hone in on those 1 or 2 slots that were underperforming in the 75 and fix accordingly.

Everything is really up in the air right now. There are so many things to worry about now like the wishboard (Mike you ever try Burning Wish in the old lists?), a lack of real sideboard space, moon counts, welder/engineer dynamics, other tutor targets, manabase, etc.

It's the Wild West right now. Every deck is adjusting to War of the Spark and now Modern Horizons.

Best advice for now is to just keep painting, mess around with a lot of different configurations, and see what problems arise.

And of course #FreeNedleeds

[Hisa]

I get the excitement about Engineer, its amazing to see cards printed that so seamlessly fits into the Deck.

The extra mana (in cost and activation) is a BIG deal though. Welder T1 is infinitely more impressive than Welder T2. Like Mom, it warps the way your opponent develops in the early game and often forces them into sub-optimal lines. The mana to activate, too, is important, especially in the early turns. If you're trying to jam the second piece, activate, and leave up a REB having that extra mana to activate starts to get dicey.

That being said, obviously having a Welder with a tutor stapled to is is great. It just makes more sense to me to think of it as Welder 5-8 (or 4-6, whatever the split ends up being) than something that could replace the OG.


Also, I'm with Kap. Iteration, iteration, iteration.

[Pittplayer]

I get the excitement about Engineer, its amazing to see cards printed that so seamlessly fits into the Deck.

The extra mana (in cost and activation) is a BIG deal though. Welder T1 is infinitely more impressive than Welder T2. Like Mom, it warps the way your opponent develops in the early game and often forces them into sub-optimal lines. The mana to activate, too, is important, especially in the early turns. If you're trying to jam the second piece, activate, and leave up a REB having that extra mana to activate starts to get dicey.

That being said, obviously having a Welder with a tutor stapled to is is great. It just makes more sense to me to think of it as Welder 5-8 (or 4-6, whatever the split ends up being) than something that could replace the OG.


Also, I'm with Kap. Iteration, iteration, iteration.

It's not welder t1. It's entomb t2 welder t3 in one card.

[drude1]

I don't know. I'm not sure about engineer yet. The benefit is definitely in imperial. The tutor factor in that deck is very good. On the other hand, it's a turn slower than e.tutor and doesn't get moon, not to mention surgical becomes a huge liability. I guess the question would be where does it fit? Does it replace copter? If so, do we go up on bridges? Tough call.

Addendum: After gold-fishing with engineer for a while, I will definitely say that I am interested in this card. I replaced 1 canonist, smuggler's copter and moved a painter to the board in order to still play 4 karn. So tutor package in my deck is:
4 karn
3 recruiter
3 engineer
3 e.tutor
(2 copter)

That with 3 each of the combo pieces main and 1 in SB and I am definitely not having trouble putting the combo together. However, if an opponent was playing a lot of creature removal, then engineer may be a liability. Time will tell.
I am also very pro-moon right now as people really seem to be getting greedy with their mana bases again. However, I HATE magus. 90% of the decks a moon effect is good against has maindeck answers to magus in the form of lightning bolt or punishing fires. The only deck magus is good against is specifically eldrazi post. So unless BUG gets really popular again, magus won't make my 75.

[Mirrislegend]

I finally got in some good reps with Karn last night. He's insanely good. I'm very happy with 4 Karn and 20 land.
However, I was able to acquire a cheap LED last night! What do I cut to fit it in?

Maindeck (60 cards):
4 Imperial Recruiters
4 Painters Servant
3 Goblin Welder
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Goblin Cratermaker
1 SSG

4 Lotus Petal
3 Grindstone
3 Smuggler’s Copter

4 Pyroblast
2 REB
3 Enlightened Tutor

4 Karn, the Great Creator
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Blood Moon

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Mountain
3 Plateau
5 fetch lands
2 Great Furnace

Sideboard:
3 Pyroclasm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 REB
1 EE
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Lattice
1 Grindstone
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Walking Ballista
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Relic of Progentis
1 Magus of the Moon

I need to cut one MD slot for LED and I'm wondering if I should cut a SB card for Pithing Needle. I know Jack had -1 Magus, +1 Needle recently. I'm not sure how I feel about that when Moon effects are so strong against so many decks (especially combined with Karn!).

Advice please! I'm going to be jamming Legacy all weekend long at GP Providence, starting tomorrow at the crack of dawn.

[drude1]

I finally got in some good reps with Karn last night. He's insanely good. I'm very happy with 4 Karn and 20 land.
However, I was able to acquire a cheap LED last night! What do I cut to fit it in?

Maindeck (60 cards):
4 Imperial Recruiters
4 Painters Servant
3 Goblin Welder
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Goblin Cratermaker
1 SSG

4 Lotus Petal
3 Grindstone
3 Smuggler’s Copter

4 Pyroblast
2 REB
3 Enlightened Tutor

4 Karn, the Great Creator
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Blood Moon

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Mountain
3 Plateau
5 fetch lands
2 Great Furnace

Sideboard:
3 Pyroclasm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 REB
1 EE
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Lattice
1 Grindstone
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Walking Ballista
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Relic of Progentis
1 Magus of the Moon

I need to cut one MD slot for LED and I'm wondering if I should cut a SB card for Pithing Needle. I know Jack had -1 Magus, +1 Needle recently. I'm not sure how I feel about that when Moon effects are so strong against so many decks (especially combined with Karn!).

Advice please! I'm going to be jamming Legacy all weekend long at GP Providence, starting tomorrow at the crack of dawn.

Personally, if I only had 1 LED I would stick it in the SB and in your list cut the REB. Most others will probably tell you to cut the 20th land.

[Michael Keller]

So, I’m curious: Why would you put LED in the board?

[8bit9mm]

I don't know. I'm not sure about engineer yet. The benefit is definitely in imperial. The tutor factor in that deck is very good. On the other hand, it's a turn slower than e.tutor and doesn't get moon, not to mention surgical becomes a huge liability.

I think us caring about Surgical is at an all-time low.
With Karn being able to snag stuff out of the exile zone, we are literally able to assemble our combo from every zone in the game.

Hand? Cast that shit.
Library? Recruit/Engineer that shit.
Graveyard? Weld/Engineer that shit.
Exile/Silver Counter? 4-Drop Silver Surfer that shit.
Sideboard? Kunning-Karn Wish that shit.

[sroncor1]

I would recommend to never cut the 4th Recruiter. Its still or demonic tutor of sorts in the deck.

I think having the LED in the main is really important. The ability to leverage E. tutor for fast wins is really important. Adding a second to the board is a nice idea also. Using a Karn activation to set up an easy next turn Lattice is a sound idea. Overall LED has continued to be very nice in the deck.

@Karn count- I am still on 3. I am not sure that 4 is the best number. It may be, but it does raise the curve. If you are on the 4 Karn I would suggest that you do add the 4th land. Sometimes the mana is tough as is, so we need to balance that moving forward.

@3 Goblin Engineers- I am also struggling to find out what to cut. The first one is easy as it is just better than Cratermaker. I am thinking that dropping the Canonist count is reasonable. Storm is very low right now and adding another high value creature would likely still be good. It's getting the 3rd one in that has been difficult. I had thought about moving a Painter to the board, but that would slow us down and I am not sure that is the correct play. It is worth testing as the ability to find him would be huge, but our current speed is really nice. I had also thought about only 5 blasts main with 2 in the board. That may be something to consider. The other areas to evaluate would be e tutor and Copter. E tutor allows us to leverage so much of the deck, that i am very hesitant to cut them. Maybe the correct answer is to drop the Copter count. That bothers me as a turn one copter is just so good, although we now have efficient tutors to more reliably have copters with the engineer so that may balance out.

No matter what it should be an interesting June.

Now I just need to find time between Old School to play more legacy. That and get a 3 summer Plateaus....

Seth

[CptHaddock]

So, I’m curious: Why would you put LED in the board?

If you are choked on mana it seems like it would be reasonable to get LED with the first activation and then whatever else you need with the 2nd.



I would recommend to never cut the 4th Recruiter. Its still or demonic tutor of sorts in the deck.

I think having the LED in the main is really important. The ability to leverage E. tutor for fast wins is really important. Adding a second to the board is a nice idea also. Using a Karn activation to set up an easy next turn Lattice is a sound idea. Overall LED has continued to be very nice in the deck.

@Karn count- I am still on 3. I am not sure that 4 is the best number. It may be, but it does raise the curve. If you are on the 4 Karn I would suggest that you do add the 4th land. Sometimes the mana is tough as is, so we need to balance that moving forward.

@3 Goblin Engineers- I am also struggling to find out what to cut. The first one is easy as it is just better than Cratermaker. I am thinking that dropping the Canonist count is reasonable. Storm is very low right now and adding another high value creature would likely still be good. It's getting the 3rd one in that has been difficult. I had thought about moving a Painter to the board, but that would slow us down and I am not sure that is the correct play. It is worth testing as the ability to find him would be huge, but our current speed is really nice. I had also thought about only 5 blasts main with 2 in the board. That may be something to consider. The other areas to evaluate would be e tutor and Copter. E tutor allows us to leverage so much of the deck, that i am very hesitant to cut them. Maybe the correct answer is to drop the Copter count. That bothers me as a turn one copter is just so good, although we now have efficient tutors to more reliably have copters with the engineer so that may balance out.

No matter what it should be an interesting June.

Now I just need to find time between Old School to play more legacy. That and get a 3 summer Plateaus....

Seth

LED is insane and I have 0 idea why people dislike it.

I think that i'm going to cut a canonist and probably the removal spell (WB/lavaman/cm) for 2 of them while still keeping 1 canonist in the main (it gives some random utility outside of combo matchups vs xerox and removal heavy decks).

[Michael Keller]

There’s way better options to get than LED out of the sideboard; it seems bad. If you’re spending one activation (at a minimum of four available mana to cast Karn, unless he was powered out otherwise with SSG or Petal) then getting it really isn’t giving you full value because he has to survive and activate again the next turn. You’re dumping your hand to go all-in on Lattice, really - that to me is really the only reason to run it in the board.

I think LED is better main. Relegating a sideboard slot to it just feels and seems wrong.

[drude1]

There’s way better options to get than LED out of the sideboard; it seems bad. If you’re spending one activation (at a minimum of four available mana to cast Karn, unless he was powered out otherwise with SSG or Petal) then getting it really isn’t giving you full value because he has to survive and activate again the next turn. You’re dumping your hand to go all-in on Lattice, really - that to me is really the only reason to run it in the board.

I think LED is better main. Relegating a sideboard slot to it just feels and seems wrong.

I've had so many games now where I turn 2 or 3 Karn off of a petal or two, get LED and on turn 3-4 play lattice Lock. I currently am playing one LED main for e.tutor (and will get much better with engineer) and one in board for Karn. The other thing you can do if you have 1 combo piece is get LED with first Karn activation and get second combo piece and win on the spot without even worrying if Karn lives or not. I would say that I have probably wished for LED off Karn more than any other card so far.

@sroncor: Karn had me at hello and I don't think I can go lower than the full play set at this point. This might mainly be because the best defense against Karn is your own Karn. I will agree that the 20th land is probably right in this case. Now it's just a matter of finding the space.

I would recommend that everyone put a few proxies of engineer in the deck and gold-fish with it for a while. I think at least one copter is worth being in the deck just because you can grab it with the engineer. But I would definitely value engineer over copter at this point.

[Michael Keller]

I’d probably play just one. But remember: including Engineer should make one reconsider the Furnace count.

For me personally, I can’t bring myself to getting LED with Karn. If I’m light on mana, I get Coating and Strip Mine their lands.

[Davek]

In the latest games i played the karn-lattice combo felt kinda weak... i mean, against decks like miracles it could work well, but when you're facing a battlefield filled with creatures karn will end up being killed by simple attacks unless you have a very effective ensnaring bridge into play as well. Talking about ensnaring bridge, is the 1x maindeck enough? I tried upping it to 2 and it was good, it helped me to survive till late game (but maybe i'm playing this deck wrong since i'm very conservative and if i have the opportunity - see no high pressure from opponents - i tend to play my key pieces only when i have some countermeasures rather than risking going for the kill in early turns)

[sroncor1]

@ Davek- I think you may be leaning too hard on the combo. While the testing is too early to hang on numbers at this time, I would say I go for the combo with Lattice less than 30% of the time I even resolve Karn. You need to be in a situation where spending 6 mana wins you the game, and you are correct, there are many decks and board states where this just isnt a good idea. Luckily he can grab Bridges, Grindstones, EE, Ballista, or just crew a Copter, which gives him a great floor.

@Drude1- I agree I have loved Karn since testing. His ability to just dominate the game and provide value is very remarkable. I am still not sure we want 4, although I am open to the idea of it. 4 mana is still a big ask and to truly use 4 of them consistently, we likely need to up the permanent mana sources in the deck.

I do think the Copter and the Engineer are different. He doesn't replace E tutor as there is downside to not getting the card in hand. Needing to untap with a guy that dies to every piece of removal in the format is a real issue. So while adding redundancies of these dudes while increasing their utility, we still need to remember that downside. Welders always have had a huge target on their back, and this may only increase that. Copter helps to filter, which gives us the chance to cast the spell, which is important, while also making welder and the Engineer better by feeding them. By putting pressure on their life total, easily killing planeswalkers, and serving as another most remove threat are all things that help make the Welder/Engineer plan stronger. Not to mention Copter and Karn form a nice tandem. To be fair, it feels bad reducing the copter count to 3.

@LED- I agree with a lot of what you all are saying. LED, with E tutor, just has so much upside in the current lists. I can see sequences where getting LED on the first Karn activation is really good. Board space is tight, but I do think we want a mana source in the board. I was speaking with Jack about a Great Furnace potentially, but maybe the second LED is the choice. I do think though the artifact land is a nice side in during games 2 and 3 when we are facing Wastelands. Something to think about, but in general I do like the idea of mana in the board that can be found on demand.

Seth

[Michael Keller]

Thoughts on a singleton Grim Monolith?

[Megadeus]

Thoughts on a singleton Grim Monolith?

To wish for or in the main?

[Daize]

I assume in the mb - when you're at 4 mana for Karn you want to immediately impact the board state. This is why I think wishing for led, or monolith, wouldn't make much sense to me.

But it's a bit too easy to ask for opinions without adding some thoughts in why you think it'd be worth considering, Michael.. I see them in other versions of painter, but usually as 3-4 of. I'm not even sure about the singleton led as it's either a dead top-deck, or a happy little surprise - not exactly the king of consistency.

Within that, the goal of the deck should be clear. You seem to aim more at painter shenanigans & related synergies, while as per the primer of shortcakes, the aim is consistency in getting the combo off. Both are RW and both play painter and grindstone, but it's not the same.

Looking forward to _your_ elaboration ;-).

[Michael Keller]

I just think the card is broken like LED. And while it certainly has merits, it enables turn two wins without needing to dump your hand and frees up a red source to cast Karn turn two with Blast backup.

[sroncor1]

Grim Monolith is an interesting card. I have to agree with Hollywood, that the card is incredibly strong and I really like how we are really exploring a lot of avenues and options.

The card is a lot different than LED though. It isn't as explosive as LED, but it does allow for explosive turns. LED works best with tutors to deploy the threat THAT turn vs the typical set up turn on Grim Monolith. I think its the set up turn that makes the card hard for us to really use. While we have sol lands, you often want to be dropping Copter or Painter or Karn then exploding. The Monolith takes taht turn but does allow for a ton of mana the next turn to do the same thing. The issue is that Painter/Copter/Karn often lose a little bit of value if you want to resolve them. So we need to work through that. I dont think we want to wish for the Monolith just bc we cant really cast it the same turn. But we likely should test it. Currently i am thinking about either an LED or a Great Furnace in the board. Recently I have had more than a couple games where I really wanted just a mana source with Karn active.

It could be that we need to be a big mana deck to really abuse the Grim Monolith. I wouldn't know really where to start with that, but it might makes us closer to a mono brown shell.

Seth

[Michael Keller]

Grim Monolith is an interesting card. I have to agree with Hollywood, that the card is incredibly strong and I really like how we are really exploring a lot of avenues and options.

The card is a lot different than LED though. It isn't as explosive as LED, but it does allow for explosive turns. LED works best with tutors to deploy the threat THAT turn vs the typical set up turn on Grim Monolith. I think its the set up turn that makes the card hard for us to really use. While we have sol lands, you often want to be dropping Copter or Painter or Karn then exploding. The Monolith takes taht turn but does allow for a ton of mana the next turn to do the same thing. The issue is that Painter/Copter/Karn often lose a little bit of value if you want to resolve them. So we need to work through that. I dont think we want to wish for the Monolith just bc we cant really cast it the same turn. But we likely should test it. Currently i am thinking about either an LED or a Great Furnace in the board. Recently I have had more than a couple games where I really wanted just a mana source with Karn active.

It could be that we need to be a big mana deck to really abuse the Grim Monolith. I wouldn't know really where to start with that, but it might makes us closer to a mono brown shell.

Seth

I'm also starting to wonder if Goblin Engineer is actually more broken than Welder. The fact that it Entombs is ridiculous, and the more and more I think about it, this card may wind up being a lot better than advertised. It's already changing the Modern landscape, and while Legacy is a completely different beast, being able to have this and Welder on the table at the same time is ludicrous (turn one Welder off Furnace into turn two Engineer and Weld something into play is fantastic).

Grim Monolith is great because you can dump it to the Engineer after a single use if you want to. Think about a theoretical turn like this:

1. Tomb, Monolith, Petal (or SSG in hand), go.
2. Mountain/Furnace, Tomb+Monolith, Karn, REB/Pyroblast off Petal, Mountain/Furnace or SSG.

When used in multiples (Monolith), I almost wonder if having Voltaic Key out of the sideboard would be good, too.

I do think that Engineer opens the deck up to ridiculous possibilities. I still think white as a splash is good for Tutor and Canonist, etc., but the entire fabric of the deck has been altered by these last two sets. It's like the deck got nothing for years, then a ton of shit in two sets.

[shonenkakumei]

On Grim Monolith--in my very limited experience playing with this deck, and in the Karn-meta, it felt great when my post-opponent cast monolith and I cast Karn. Obviously all artifacts don't like opposing Karns, but LED is still free to cast so you can Welder-Tinker back something nice? With Engineer allowing for Entomb, sideing in Wurmcoil (or Spine of Ish Sah) as "answers" to opposing null Rod effects could be nice.

[drude1]

I assume in the mb - when you're at 4 mana for Karn you want to immediately impact the board state. This is why I think wishing for led, or monolith, wouldn't make much sense to me.

But it's a bit too easy to ask for opinions without adding some thoughts in why you think it'd be worth considering, Michael.. I see them in other versions of painter, but usually as 3-4 of. I'm not even sure about the singleton led as it's either a dead top-deck, or a happy little surprise - not exactly the king of consistency.

So, the LED main I think is mostly used as an e.tutor target. If you have other combo pieces in hand you can e.tutor for a fast win. Otherwise yes, I agree that it is sometimes awkward.

However, once engineer becomes legal then the LED main gets much better. I was so impressed with engineer gold-fishing that I did a little experiment yesterday. I gold-fished 50 games where I would see if I could combo off by turn 4. For the purpose of this exercise "combo off" meant actual combo or Karn + lattice on board by turn 4. With 1 LED main and 1 in SB along with 1 each of other combo pieces in SB I had a "win rate" of 80%. So 4/5 games I was able to win by turn 4 and a lot of this had to do with access to LED either in board or main. Obviously this little experiment doesn't necessarily translate to real wins but the explosiveness of the deck can really be impacted by these kinds of inclusions.

Regarding monolith I would agree with Seth that the concern would be the need for an extra set-up turn. I don't want to power out a turn 2 Karn only to get a monolith to play turn 3 and then lattice turn 4. You should be able to lattice Lock the next turn.

[Megadeus]

With new engineer now is there any thought to bringing in Daretti? More ways to get stuff out of the yard is good. Might just be worse than welder/engineer, but it also gives some more looting too to get stuff in the yard to turn on the two goblins. Also is there an argument for Cavern of Souls now? Maybe that's more strictly for mono red

[Michael Keller]

So, the LED main I think is mostly used as an e.tutor target. If you have other combo pieces in hand you can e.tutor for a fast win. Otherwise yes, I agree that it is sometimes awkward.

However, once engineer becomes legal then the LED main gets much better. I was so impressed with engineer gold-fishing that I did a little experiment yesterday. I gold-fished 50 games where I would see if I could combo off by turn 4. For the purpose of this exercise "combo off" meant actual combo or Karn + lattice on board by turn 4. With 1 LED main and 1 in SB along with 1 each of other combo pieces in SB I had a "win rate" of 80%. So 4/5 games I was able to win by turn 4 and a lot of this had to do with access to LED either in board or main. Obviously this little experiment doesn't necessarily translate to real wins but the explosiveness of the deck can really be impacted by these kinds of inclusions.

Regarding monolith I would agree with Seth that the concern would be the need for an extra set-up turn. I don't want to power out a turn 2 Karn only to get a monolith to play turn 3 and then lattice turn 4. You should be able to lattice Lock the next turn.

But wouldn’t Monolith free up the need to have to use LED out of the board? You don’t even have to Tutor got it; it’s just incidentally good. The issue I have with LED is that it’s very “all-in.”

[LeoCop 90]

I almost mever leave comments here, but i play painter occasionally and it's hard to not get excited with new karn and goblin engineer being printed in back to back sets. I think painter now has really the potential o become tier one.

With that in mind, though, i think we should consider that one of the strengths of this deck has always been its versatility. Meaning that we are a combo deck that can also play prison, control or sometimes aggro. If we start playing too many welders/engineers and up the great furnaces count to 4, we become extremely vulnerable to graveyard hate and stuff like null rod. The same goes for cutting enlightened tutor and blood moon with it : i don't think it's wise to completely lose the angle of attack of "slam blood moon win the game".

It will be a challenge to find the right build with so many tutors at our disposal. We just need to not go too "all-in" on some stuff i think.

[drude1]

I almost mever leave comments here, but i play painter occasionally and it's hard to not get excited with new karn and goblin engineer being printed in back to back sets. I think painter now has really the potential o become tier one.

With that in mind, though, i think we should consider that one of the strengths of this deck has always been its versatility. Meaning that we are a combo deck that can also play prison, control or sometimes aggro. If we start playing too many welders/engineers and up the great furnaces count to 4, we become extremely vulnerable to graveyard hate and stuff like null rod. The same goes for cutting enlightened tutor and blood moon with it : i don't think it's wise to completely lose the angle of attack of "slam blood moon win the game".

It will be a challenge to find the right build with so many tutors at our disposal. We just need to not go too "all-in" on some stuff i think.I totally agree and in fact, I am currently playing 3 blood moon main in my list as I think it is much better against all the other Sol land and post decks running around lately. Our fast Mana gives us the advantage with a moon out.

LED honestly doesn't feel that "all-in" to me with this deck because a) most of your hand is depleted by the time you crack the LED anyway and b) we have welders/engineers to recover things in the graveyard. There are certainly going to be games where we want to slow things down and play more methodically (against control) but there are other games against aggro or other combo where we just need to be faster than our opponent.

[Daize]

Grim Monolith is great because you can dump it to the Engineer after a single use if you want to.

Yes, this is also what makes lesser masticore interesting for me, resilience. Tbh I'm less interested in how fast we can combo, and more interested in must-answer-cards, working under protection as well as resilience. This resilience and protection feels like two of the reasons painter doesn't "brick" easily, making the deck pretty difficult to beat. Karn is an amazing example of a card that is a must answer. So is painter, welder, and probably engineer also falls into that category. Against the right decks, same for ethersworn Canonist and blood moon. How about e. Tutor? (Sorry for beating a - probably dead by now - horse, but engineer feels so much more threatening. That summoning sickness though got me thinking of daretti as well, megadeus.

Edit: Seems like I'm echoing some things already mentioned above. So yes, I agree avoiding too narrow a line of play. This makes me feel copter becomes more important again: you want those 8~ welders and they're great for threat & crewing, but you'd need to be able to filter them out for better.

Also realised that if you're afraid of in-response gy removal, having a welder & engineer active helps a ton in that.


Dudes, the way we're taking about it makes it seem like either we feel the risk of getting carried away, or we're thinking more in terms of an artifacts shenanigans deck with the painter+grindstone combo :'-)

[Megadeus]

I almost mever leave comments here, but i play painter occasionally and it's hard to not get excited with new karn and goblin engineer being printed in back to back sets. I think painter now has really the potential o become tier one.

With that in mind, though, i think we should consider that one of the strengths of this deck has always been its versatility. Meaning that we are a combo deck that can also play prison, control or sometimes aggro. If we start playing too many welders/engineers and up the great furnaces count to 4, we become extremely vulnerable to graveyard hate and stuff like null rod. The same goes for cutting enlightened tutor and blood moon with it : i don't think it's wise to completely lose the angle of attack of "slam blood moon win the game".

It will be a challenge to find the right build with so many tutors at our disposal. We just need to not go too "all-in" on some stuff i think.
I very much agree here. Currently being a combo deck that doesn't care about the graveyard is pretty nice. I've had matches where I do welder shenanigans game 1, my opponent boards in random graveyard hate, then game 2 I just don't do anything with the graveyard and won anyway. It is very nice that you basically don't care about a RIP or whatever. I think engineer is a nice card in addition to what we have, but I don't think it's necessarily a card that we want to lean on. Basically my same feelings on welder, yes it can do dumb things if my Opponents don't interact with it, but if they do I don't really care and sometimes it just clears the way for my next broken thing that I do.

[Scott]

Thoughts on a singleton Grim Monolith?

Interesting that you should bring that up. A 5-0 MTGO list (https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=22036&d=348828&f=LE) from yesterday has a Grim Monolith, which I haven't seen before. It's mono-red and not shortcake, but I figured it would be of interest.

[Michael Keller]

Interesting that you should bring that up. A 5-0 MTGO list (https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=22036&d=348828&f=LE) from yesterday has a Grim Monolith, which I haven't seen before. It's mono-red and not shortcake, but I figured it would be of interest.

Thanks for sharing. Not a fan too much of that list, but it is what it is.

I just think Grim Monolith has merit because it's not all in like LED. LED, while fantastic, to me is a card that has the ability to outright win you games, but the problem is it's really not a card I would want to Tutor for or Karn for, because it's not really doing anything outside of building towards a combo turn unimpeded. I just don't see that as being realistic in Legacy and it would really only be optimal in the opening hand or second turn.

Of course, opening with LED is a different story, which is why I think it's better in mono red shells that can abuse Welder (and now Engineer). I mean, let's say someone gets Karn in and grabs an LED out of the board, and then Karn dies. What are you getting out of LED at that point that matters? If you have Monolith in play, you don't necessarily have to tap it and discard your hand; you can use it to power out whatever without much of a drawback.

My list is also different than some of the folks in here because the fabric includes cards like Liquimetal Coating, Gorilla Shaman and the like. Since I run two Coating main and one in the board, in addition to Goblin Welder and likely an Engineer (or two), I'm looking at Dack Fayden carefully and adding a Volc to the main and readjusting the mana base.

Being able to Coating something like Jace or an opponent's key card and steal it with Dack is ridiculous. Not to mention Dack is just great by himself.

EDIT: Fixed.

[SDBobPlissken]

I played against repia1152 (the dude with the mono red list that 5-0’d) in the practice room on Mtgo. Is he active on this thread? He was actually trying out a new list in the practice room when I played him that splashed green and ran 4 groves with 3 punishing fires. Also had mirri’s guile and talisman of impulse. I thought the list looked kinda clunky and he said it was still a work in progress but I tried it out playing against storm, land, DNT, and miracles and it felt pretty good, especially vs miracles since it plays 4 Karn, 2 Chandra ToD, and 3 choke in the sideboard.

[mistercakes]

Thanks for sharing. Not a fan too much of that list, but it is what it is.

I just think Grim Monolith has merit because it's not all in like LED. LED, while fantastic, to me is a card that has the ability to outright win you games, but the problem is it's really not a card I would want to Tutor for or Karn for, because it's not really doing anything outside of building towards a combo turn unimpeded. I just don't see that as being realistic in Legacy and it would really only be optimal in the opening hand or second turn.

Of course, opening with LED is a different story, which is why I think it's better in mono red shells that can abuse Welder (and now Engineer). I mean, let's say someone gets Karn in and grabs an LED out of the board, and then Karn dies. What are you getting out of LED at that point that matters? If you have Monolith in play, you don't necessarily have to tap it and discard your hand; you can use it to power out whatever without much of a drawback.

My list is also different than some of the folks in here because the fabric includes cards like Liquimetal Coating, Gorilla Shaman and the like. Since I run two Coating main and one in the board, in addition to Goblin Welder and likely an Engineer (or two), I'm looking at Dack Fayden carefully and adding a Volc to the main and readjusting the mana base.

Being able to Coating something like Jace or an opponent's key card and steal it with Dack is ridiculous. Not to mention Dack is just great by himself.

EDIT: Fixed.

i have been thinking more about using coating in the 75 and tested a few in the sb. they are fine cards, but having something like dack fayden would help quite a bit. i think it's possible if you are using dack you'll want to run at least 1 mox opal in there (if you aren't already).

LED + welder being able to power out a lattice by itself with karn is worth more testing. if there's some bigger artifacts that might get clunky in opening hands then LED can also solve for that, but that is a bit more fringe.

[chunderbucket]

Has anyone tried to playtest with Seasoned Pyromancer? It digs for the combo, enables graveyard/welder shenanigans, and is generally a good value creature (note that you just draw two with no drawbacks if you cast this while hellbent). It's also recruitable. The manacost shouldn't be that prohibitive given that Jaya used to be a mainstay in the deck.

[colo]

My list is also different than some of the folks in here because the fabric includes cards like Liquimetal Coating, Gorilla Shaman and the like. Since I run two Coating main and one in the board, in addition to Goblin Welder and likely an Engineer (or two), I'm looking at Dack Fayden carefully and adding a Volc to the main and readjusting the mana base.

Being able to Coating something like Jace or an opponent's key card and steal it with Dack is ridiculous. Not to mention Dack is just great by himself.

I'm developing a UR list into that same direction. Some of the interactions that Liquimetal Coating enables are completely bonkers, but I'm not sure yet if I want a combo-ish Painter shell, or a controll-ish Thopter/Sword shell...

[drude1]

Thanks for sharing. Not a fan too much of that list, but it is what it is.

I just think Grim Monolith has merit because it's not all in like LED. LED, while fantastic, to me is a card that has the ability to outright win you games, but the problem is it's really not a card I would want to Tutor for or Karn for, because it's not really doing anything outside of building towards a combo turn unimpeded. I just don't see that as being realistic in Legacy and it would really only be optimal in the opening hand or second turn.

Of course, opening with LED is a different story, which is why I think it's better in mono red shells that can abuse Welder (and now Engineer). I mean, let's say someone gets Karn in and grabs an LED out of the board, and then Karn dies. What are you getting out of LED at that point that matters? If you have Monolith in play, you don't necessarily have to tap it and discard your hand; you can use it to power out whatever without much of a drawback.

You are working under the assumption that you aren't missing any land drops, and we all know how unlikely that is with this deck. One of the best things about LED is that you can totally function and combo off with 2 lands (or even 1 land and fast Mana).

In your example of getting LED off Karn and then having Karn die, I probably wouldn't be getting LED off of Karn if opponent had enough power on board to kill Karn UNLESS it was going to enable me to combo that turn, or I needed to empty my hand because I had bridge on board and wanted to protect my Karn. Monolith doesn't do either of those or anything more for you than LED does in that position. It's just a turn slower to play out and use. The one advantage i see monolith having over LED would be if it was in your opening hand and you wanted to power out an early Karn. You could play Sol land into monolith turn 1 into Karn turn 2. Also, once engineer becomes legal then putting monolith into graveyard off the engineer has advantages over LED if you don't want to discard your hand. So if anything I would consider playing monolith main and LED as wish target, not the other way around.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190527/3a079a897ae2f9b3bbc02a20a1e1238c.jpg

Game yesterday with turn 2 win through a spell pierce against U/W stoneblade. LED was gross here.

[Megadeus]

Game yesterday with turn 2 win through a spell pierce against U/W stoneblade. LED was gross here.
God I fucking love Goblin Welder.

[Michael Keller]

You are working under the assumption that you aren't missing any land drops, and we all know how unlikely that is with this deck. One of the best things about LED is that you can totally function and combo off with 2 lands (or even 1 land and fast Mana).

You can, but you’re going all in. You can’t protect yourself when you have to discard your hand.


In your example of getting LED off Karn and then having Karn die, I probably wouldn't be getting LED off of Karn if opponent had enough power on board to kill Karn UNLESS it was going to enable me to combo that turn, or I needed to empty my hand because I had bridge on board and wanted to protect my Karn. Monolith doesn't do either of those or anything more for you than LED does in that position. It's just a turn slower to play out and use. The one advantage i see monolith having over LED would be if it was in your opening hand and you wanted to power out an early Karn. You could play Sol land into monolith turn 1 into Karn turn 2. Also, once engineer becomes legal then putting monolith into graveyard off the engineer has advantages over LED if you don't want to discard your hand. So if anything I would consider playing monolith main and LED as wish target, not the other way around.

I’d do the same, but I wouldn’t put LED in the board, nor Monolith. If I have the mana to cast Karn, that buys time because he’s a serious threat alone. This is where mulligan strategy becomes more important: Are you keeping a double Sol land hand with Karn? I guess I’m more in the content camp of not wanting to go all-in with LED. The only way I’d want to is if I were running four Welders and Faithless Looting in a mono red shell to seriously abuse it. Otherwise, with Grindstone in the sideboard as a Karn target, LED main or board is actually worse because you statistically have a lower chance of opening with Grindstone to win fast.

I just refuse to spend four mana and a whole turn to grab a mana source - even if once in a while something like LED would win a game or two. I’d much rather cast Grim Monolith turn one to get to six mana in turn two and win the same way.

[drude1]

You can, but you’re going all in. You can’t protect yourself when you have to discard your hand.



I’d do the same, but I wouldn’t put LED in the board, nor Monolith. If I have the mana to cast Karn, that buys time because he’s a serious threat alone. This is where mulligan strategy becomes more important: Are you keeping a double Sol land hand with Karn? I guess I’m more in the content camp of not wanting to go all-in with LED. The only way I’d want to is if I were running four Welders and Faithless Looting in a mono red shell to seriously abuse it. Otherwise, with Grindstone in the sideboard as a Karn target, LED main or board is actually worse because you statistically have a lower chance of opening with Grindstone to win fast.

I just refuse to spend four mana and a whole turn to grab a mana source - even if once in a while something like LED would win a game or two. I’d much rather cast Grim Monolith turn one to get to six mana in turn two and win the same way.First, you may not have the Mana to cast Karn... again. What if you cast Karn with a Sol land and 2 petals? You may be exactly protecting yourself when you have to discard your hand.
Again, read my previous post. I am getting LED if it wins me the game or protects Karn. I know how the game works and I understand board positions. But if I can turn 2 Karn into turn 3 lattice with an LED, there are game states where that is definitely the play. Also, discarding your hand becomes much less of a liability when engineer comes out, as you now have multiple ways to abuse your graveyard.

[Megadeus]

I think the big argument against LED is, Is the extra speed that it provides enough to warrant it's all in nature? Also how often could you win anyway without it? How many games does it win you versus the amount of games that whatever card you're taking out for it win you? Me personally I'm interested in it when the new Welder comes out and I go to a prison red build with Bridges and welders. I've had many games where I have bridge but struggle to get hellbent thanks to a well timed wasteland by my opponent

[sroncor1]

@ LED- I have to say it hasn't felt as all in as many people are making it out to be. Yes sometimes activating it is basically placing your dick on the table and hoping the other player doesn't have a hammer. But most times you know the coast is clear and just need the mana. It isn't hard to ensure the sequencing is such that you have that window where protection isn't required as you have already depleted resources or forced them to tap out.

LED also has a lot of upside and fringe uses. We need cheap artifacts to simply weld away at times. Having artifacts in the yard is sometimes better than hand, and the ability to dump your hand with Bridge in play can often just win the game.

Monolith is a great card but I don't think this LED is all in, or Monolith builds to big turn is the only way we can look at it. For me LED is just better, but I am still using Copter and still find that to be my best play on turn one. For me I dont want to spend a turn just developing for the next turn without also doing something that will have an impact on the current board state. That is just me, and it is sort of the way that we designed Shortcake to flow. Its a little simplistic to say we only care about the combo, but it isn't wrong. All the cards we are working with where chosen to help fit that single goal. through filtering, damage dealing, and tutoring we are just working towards assembling Painter/Grindstone. Sometimes we never get that far as the other cards are able to just close out games. New Karn into Lattice reminds me of the old Blood Moon lines we use to have. But in the end the deck is just working on creating a small window to resolve and activate Grindstone. This simple line is what separates us from the old I Painter threads as they stayed mono red and worked in more prison elements. I am not sure how Monolith fits best within this framework. Due to the mana required to cast it and the the sequencing involved I am inclined to think that a card that powerful should be a 4 of. I do not think that is what Shortcake wants at this time, as our best turn one plays still remain Painter, Copter, Welder, or accelerated out Recruiter.

Seth

[sroncor1]

@ Seasoned Pyromancer- It is DEF. not what Shortcake wants. Filtering is good, but Copter does it better and faster. The bodies aren't terrible, but seem too inconsistent to count on. Also at 3 mana, you need a large impact in the deck. Jaya was in old lists bc she was a swiss army knife that could fuck up all sorts of shitty positions for us. This creature cant do that and would be a poor Recruiter target. Maybe the mono red lists want this to improve consistency, but those are totally different decks.

Sorry for the double posts, but I wanted to at least briefly address that question.

Seth

[Michael Keller]

First, you may not have the Mana to cast Karn... again. What if you cast Karn with a Sol land and 2 petals? You may be exactly protecting yourself when you have to discard your hand.
Again, read my previous post. I am getting LED if it wins me the game or protects Karn. I know how the game works and I understand board positions. But if I can turn 2 Karn into turn 3 lattice with an LED, there are game states where that is definitely the play. Also, discarding your hand becomes much less of a liability when engineer comes out, as you now have multiple ways to abuse your graveyard.

I’m not questioning if you understand board positions or Magic. I’m sure you do. What I’m trying to understand, respectfully, is how one justifies a slot for either LED or Grim Monolith main or board. The chances of going T2 Karn into LED into Lattice unimpeded are fringe at best against someone having some measure of disruption, whether it’s Wasteland, a counter, or whatever.

If the goal of retrieving LED is to power out Lattice the following turn, wouldn’t it make more sense to get Coating with whatever colorless resource you have and machine gun their lands starting turn three - which seems more realistic and far more effective against conditional counters? You can then grab Lattice thereafter.

I see what the point of it is in the board to use if you’re short on mana. But you’re really getting it to land Lattice. This is why I run Coating: to avoid situations like that and go Crucible-Strip. It’s fine if you want to use it, I just don’t like it personally.

[schweinefettmann]

So over the weekend, i had a chance to go for a small local legacy shindig. was ok, not great, but again, it's the pilot i think who's at fault more than the opposition. I think this is the kinda deck that really punishes bad play (my other deck being the most punishing against bad play!). For reference, 4 karn, 2 shamans, 2/1 liquimetals MB/SB, 3 welder, 3 copters, 3 E.tutor, 4/3 painter/grindstone, 1 LED, 3 petal and 1 SSG, i think it was.

Anyways, I can say that for my play style, gorilla shaman/karn + liquimetal coating is great. Even if we're not planning to machine-gun lands away, just 'rishidan porting' some lands with karn out has been pretty good. locking out opponents off specific-coloured mana is pretty important against most decks, and this helps a lot.

The toughest decision i think is the mulligan though. If there's decent turn 1 through 3 plays, it becomes a keeper for me. But i guess i need to learn more nuances to make it really sing.

On the subject of LED, i run one main deck. Whenever i see it, i generally use it as a "ah-ha gotcha" win. sure i gotta discard my hand, but winning the game with a full grip or no cards in hand is the same to me.

I had a lattice on the board, but i don't think i ever had a reasonable time to wish-cast it. I think the closest i came to it was by mising a LED, but i don't think it's good enough. It's also surprisingly fragile, if an opponent is able to float mana into it and abrade a critical piece and so on. And when the game gets long enough that it becomes castable, there are usually better things to do with that mana (like shaman-killing lands, grindstone activations, keeping mana up for blasts, and so on).

So i get that liquimetal coating + karn and so on isn't the norm, but it is definitely strong. so strong that i'm tempted to go 3/1 split MB/SB with liquimetal. Having multiples in play is not bad either, and it becomes backbreaking with the shaman in play. I'm also planning to test a one-of viashino heretic as a recruiter target against non-0 cmc permanents that need answering. I get that explosives and blasts are there for that, but repeatable effects are so strong, it seems a bit silly to not test it at least.

Also, i just saw the latest spoiler - ironically shifted academy ruins.

land taps for colourless. or, 1W, tap, put an enchantment from the grave on top of the library.

Aside from blood moons, is there any real use here for us?

[8bit9mm]

Also, i just saw the latest spoiler - ironically shifted academy ruins.

land taps for colourless. or, 1W, tap, put an enchantment from the grave on top of the library.

Aside from blood moons, is there any real use here for us?

I think if we wanted a tech-land in Shortcake, we'd be playing Inventors' Fair.
I feel like Shortcakes really doesn't rely on Moon like it did a few years ago. Other than that, we haven't really played other enchantments consistently for the past couple of years because they're sadly, just too slow.

Also, forgot to post this here, even though I'm sure a few of you have seen it on the Discord:

Post-WAR Shortcake

https://i.imgur.com/xEUiGHB.jpg?1
https://i.imgur.com/Z4kbNGS.jpg?1
https://i.imgur.com/3jVi40h.jpg?1
https://i.imgur.com/0yoACCT.jpg?1
https://i.imgur.com/LzOUE1T.jpg?1
https://i.imgur.com/07Qb8ao.jpg?1
https://i.imgur.com/9egeesu.jpg?1
https://i.imgur.com/oyC2kWU.jpg?1
https://i.imgur.com/oV11f8l.jpg?1

[Mirrislegend]

This weekend I finally got some thorough reps in. My primary conclusions were:

Karn is fantastic, but slow
20 lands is nice, but it doesn't make us faster
5 fast mana (excluding LED) is not enough to consistently have it in our opener or draw it in a timely fashion (maybe I just can't shuffle?)
Blood Moon continues to be very swingy: it is either fantastic or horrible in every matchup. 1 MD and 1 Magus in the SB is still correct IMO
Sideboard still needs work
I'm waffling on the correct number of Canonist in the MD. After all, using it to force something through counterspells requires setting up which requires time and excess mana. If such a golden situation arises, I've found myself to be attempting to resolve Karn, which does not play nice with the Canonist + Blast plan. Perhaps Canonist and Karn should be considered mutually exclusive to some degree. I suspect 2 Canonist in the 75 is too slim, but it hasn't been relevant often. Maybe I have too few reps against Xerox decks or too few reps in general.
I'm going to keep Karn at 4 and Canonist at 1 MD for now, and see how that setup performs with 19 land and 6 fast mana, as opposed to 20 and 5.

I played against a lot of removal and found myself either itching for a 4th Welder (which I don't think we can fit in) or dying for more Welder fodder (which I don't know how to correct).
I also still lost to Chalice an inordinate amount.

Going forward, I'm going to try:
19 Land
4 Petal
2 SSG
3 Karn
3 Copter
1 LED
4 Painter
4 Recruiter
3 Welder
2 Canonist
1 Cratermaker
3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Grindstone
1 Bridge
6 Blast
1 Moon

SB:
2 Surgical
1 TCrypt
1 Relic
3 Pyroclasm
1 Magus
1 Grindstone
1 Bridge
1 Lattice
1 Canonist
2 EE
1 Pithing Needle

Walking Ballista has never been good for me. Easy cut.
I expect 2 EE to be spicy. 1 to board in, 1 to leave in the board to fetch with Karn. I'm looking forward to more reliably killing Chalice (lost to Chalice a lot despite Karn) and having extra sweeper effects.
1 Revoker in the 75 would be great, but I don't know what to cut to fit it in.

[Michael Keller]

Walking Ballista has never been good for me. Easy cut.
I expect 2 EE to be spicy. 1 to board in, 1 to leave in the board to fetch with Karn. I'm looking forward to more reliably killing Chalice (lost to Chalice a lot despite Karn) and having extra sweeper effects.
1 Revoker in the 75 would be great, but I don't know what to cut to fit it in.

Karn kills Chalice by himself. Did you need two extra slots for that - main and board? If someone slams Chalice, and you land Karn, you kill Chalice immediately with him. Is the extra space worth it?

[Mirrislegend]

Karn kills Chalice by himself. Did you need two extra slots for that - main and board? If someone slams Chalice, and you land Karn, you kill Chalice immediately with him. Is the extra space worth it?

Karn has a big target on his head. If I can't defend him, he becomes an enormous tempo drain (meaning the rest of the game plan is durdling in the meantime) just to kill one Chalice. And defending him is complex: what if I have Bridge but needed Blasts, or vice versa

Also, Karn is slow. When I'm under pressure, I cannot afford to wait for Karn to come online. The classic sequence of ETutor in response to Chalice, get EE, next turn draw and slam EE on zero, pay 2 when desired is significantly faster.

[Michael Keller]

But isn’t that the appeal of running Karn? That’s four options to kill it, and since Chalice chops up a huge portion of the deck, wouldn’t four Karns be fine to deal with Chalice on the spot? It’s such a deal-breaker that regardless of Karn’s target if he can kill it, that’s what matters.

I mean, he’s ticking up to do to six loyalty...

[Mirrislegend]

But isn’t that the appeal of running Karn? That’s four options to kill it, and since Chalice chops up a huge portion of the deck, wouldn’t four Karns be fine to deal with Chalice on the spot? It’s such a deal-breaker that regardless of Karn’s target if he can kill it, that’s what matters.

I mean, he’s ticking up to do to six loyalty... I'm not saying he's bad. Quite the opposite. I'm just saying he's not the complete solution. We can't DEPEND on him. We need backups/alternatives for a variety of reasons.

[Davek]

What do you think about maindecking 1 EE to grab with goblin engineer even under chalice in case you can't find Karn or if he ends up eaten by a TKS? Also, with the new goblin welder's cousin in mind, can we start considering something like lightning greaves?

[Mirrislegend]

What do you think about maindecking 1 EE to grab with goblin engineer even under chalice in case you can't find Karn or if he ends up eaten by a TKS? Also, with the new goblin welder's cousin in mind, can we start considering something like lightning greaves?

All sounds good, but where do we fit it? That's what everyone is grappling with. I think everyone is going to be left with their own personal theories on Goblin Engineer: there will be no definitive answer.

[shonenkakumei]

I think if we wanted a tech-land in Shortcake, we'd be playing Inventors' Fair.
I feel like Shortcakes really doesn't rely on Moon like it did a few years ago. Other than that, we haven't really played other enchantments consistently for the past couple of years because they're sadly, just too slow.

Also, forgot to post this here, even though I'm sure a few of you have seen it on the Discord:

Post-WAR Shortcake



Just so good. I've been admiring scans of your deck since before playing shortcake... it probably influenced my desire to build the deck. I love those Recruiter alters and the new Karn fits right in aesthetically.

[drude1]

What do you think about maindecking 1 EE to grab with goblin engineer even under chalice in case you can't find Karn or if he ends up eaten by a TKS? Also, with the new goblin welder's cousin in mind, can we start considering something like lightning greaves?With engineer, I would probably switch to ratchet bomb. That way you won't have to pay any Mana to use it to kill chalice and you can still tick it up to kill other things as needed. E.e. will always be stuck at 0 from the yard.

Speaking of engineer, looking for a good replacement for ballista once engineer comes out. Would want something to shoot creatures that survives the yard. Any thoughts? Cursed scroll seems okay but less than ideal. Trisk functions or of the yard but can't be recurred with engineer. [emoji37]

@mirrislegend: 4 Karn + 4 recruiter + cratermaker gives you 9 maindeck ways to answer a chalice. And as Keller said, you are ticking the Karn up to kill the chalice so it should be difficult for opponent to kill Karn even without protection. Don't think you will find e.tutor into ee that helpful, as it will likely only work on the play and only if you have a potential white source plus tutor in your opener. Very conditional.

Played in LGS last night and split the finals. Beat grixis control twice and stoneblade and i.d'd with s&s. Karn was sick all night. I do think I will be moving a painter to the board once engineer becomes legal. There were two separate occasions where Karn into painter would have won on the spot.

Not a huge fan of coating/shaman combo as shaman seems bad without coating and coating is mediocre without shaman or Karn (but at least can make you welder fodder). However, I can see the usefulness of a coating in the SB as a Karn target. Might test it against the control MUs. May also be useful with abrades in creature removal slots.... vindicates 7-9.

[sroncor1]

@ Karn- Outside of chalice into Thought Knot, I have found Karn to be a fantastic answer to Chalice. Often times you dont need to remove the Chalice immediately. Likely you should be protecting Karn either through Bridge or ensuring dudes so you can untap with him in play. Bridge is great in this match up and should likely be the first tutor with Karn, although if you are tapping out adding one to Karn first turn is likely what you need to do. Reality Smasher is a serious threat which is why Bridge is so important. Often times if you can untap with Karn in play against Eldrazi you should be in great shape.

@Drude- I have the same feelings about Mox Monkey. In theory I love the card but on its own it does so little. We are fighting for space in the deck, that it is really tough to fight in everything we need. If we are cutting Lavaman, I can't see a spot or Mox Monkey which is even more situational. So while the combo has a nice potential, I worry that the individual pieces do so little to impact the board. Currently our least impactful creature may be Goblin Welder, as he often times does nothing but is a huge threat as the game goes long. Just the natural attrition makes him extremely helpful. One in the board is interesting, although through sequencing I am not sure how it goes. It is fairly slow to resolve Karn, tutor Coating, then next turn resolve Coating and nuke a land. Likely you spent 6 plus mana and two turns to stone rain them. All this while they are setting up and can potentially resolve Mentor or Councils Judgement. Those two cards along with Snapcaster can really throw a wrench n that sequence. I like the idea of mana denial, I am just not sure its the best thing we could be doing.

I think Ballista still lives in the board for the deck. Its likely the best 187 creature we can run and his ability to grow adds nice reach. He may not be able to be welded but Relic and Karn form a nice recursion loop for you.

@mirrislegend- While Karn is our best answer, we do have some amazing ways to also interact with Chalice. The new Goblin Engineer is a fantastic answer to Chalice. I do think EE should remain part of our board and you would side it in games 2 and 3 against Chalice decks. Outside of the previously mentioned sequence of Chalice into Thoughtknot I have found the inclusion of Karn to really make fighting Chalice decks better. In general I would recommend getting in more reps with the deck. While I understand some of the issues you are having, I think with improved mulling, match up and threat awareness and evaluation, and improved sequencing you will stop having some of those issues. We are still testing the 19/20 land split and it may very well end up being 19 lands with 6 fast mana and an LED that we settle on. But so far, the fast mana has felt really good. I would nee dto see what board you are running these days to judge that part. Currently the board is really tight and I think should help in a many match ups. Jack is currently working on Sulfur Elemental, and he is likely changing my mind to use it over Pyroclasm moving forward. But the other 12 cards should be able to cover you across many of the top decks you are likely to see. Post what you are running and I am happy to give some pointers. I did say that I would post some match up insights and sideboarding tips, but with the Engineer on the horizon, I am going to hold off till that testing is done.

@Cratermaker- Initially when Engineer was spoiled I initially moved to cut the card. I think in general I think the goblin is better bc it has higher upside and deals with Chalice. But there are still corner cases that Crtatermaker does a better job with, one of which is Karn. I think we need to keep the card in consideration as the new lists shake out. Until we see who is using Karn and how, we will struggle to develop the proper answer. I personally have not worried about that as I was working on other aspects of the deck, but it is something we will eventually need to address. Cratermaker is one solid answer to the card.

Free Ned Leeds, keep painting, and I guess Wizards sucks a little less this week... but rosewater still blows

Seth

[CptHaddock]

With engineer, I would probably switch to ratchet bomb. That way you won't have to pay any Mana to use it to kill chalice and you can still tick it up to kill other things as needed. E.e. will always be stuck at 0 from the yard.

Speaking of engineer, looking for a good replacement for ballista once engineer comes out. Would want something to shoot creatures that survives the yard. Any thoughts? Cursed scroll seems okay but less than ideal. Trisk functions or of the yard but can't be recurred with engineer. [emoji37]

@mirrislegend: 4 Karn + 4 recruiter + cratermaker gives you 9 maindeck ways to answer a chalice. And as Keller said, you are ticking the Karn up to kill the chalice so it should be difficult for opponent to kill Karn even without protection. Don't think you will find e.tutor into ee that helpful, as it will likely only work on the play and only if you have a potential white source plus tutor in your opener. Very conditional.

Played in LGS last night and split the finals. Beat grixis control twice and stoneblade and i.d'd with s&s. Karn was sick all night. I do think I will be moving a painter to the board once engineer becomes legal. There were two separate occasions where Karn into painter would have won on the spot.

Not a huge fan of coating/shaman combo as shaman seems bad without coating and coating is mediocre without shaman or Karn (but at least can make you welder fodder). However, I can see the usefulness of a coating in the SB as a Karn target. Might test it against the control MUs. May also be useful with abrades in creature removal slots.... vindicates 7-9.

Outside of Ratchet Bomb your best option for killing a creature is probably Pyrite Spellbomb. I think there are some janky equipment from older sets that allow you to ping creatures as well but those aren't ideal. I'm keeping a copy in my sideboard for sure. I think it's my 3rd most fetched for card with karn, only beaten by bridge and grindstone. I've also thought about putting a painter in the board but before engineer I don't think there was a good enough card for that spot.

e: The coating/shaman combo seems really really good against control decks since you are playing way more bombs in your deck that they have to deal with. I really have no idea how that kind of list beats delver. I guess nuking their lands while they kill you with delver and company is a personal victory.

[Mirrislegend]

@mirrislegend- While Karn is our best answer, we do have some amazing ways to also interact with Chalice. The new Goblin Engineer is a fantastic answer to Chalice. I do think EE should remain part of our board and you would side it in games 2 and 3 against Chalice decks. Outside of the previously mentioned sequence of Chalice into Thoughtknot I have found the inclusion of Karn to really make fighting Chalice decks better. In general I would recommend getting in more reps with the deck. While I understand some of the issues you are having, I think with improved mulling, match up and threat awareness and evaluation, and improved sequencing you will stop having some of those issues. We are still testing the 19/20 land split and it may very well end up being 19 lands with 6 fast mana and an LED that we settle on. But so far, the fast mana has felt really good. I would nee dto see what board you are running these days to judge that part. Currently the board is really tight and I think should help in a many match ups. Jack is currently working on Sulfur Elemental, and he is likely changing my mind to use it over Pyroclasm moving forward. But the other 12 cards should be able to cover you across many of the top decks you are likely to see. Post what you are running and I am happy to give some pointers. I did say that I would post some match up insights and sideboarding tips, but with the Engineer on the horizon, I am going to hold off till that testing is done.

So do you still prefer the 19 land, 5 fast mana, 3 Karn, 3 Copter arrangement?

[sroncor1]

@Mirrislegend-currently I am on a 19 lands, 6 fast mana, and 1 LED main plan. I have thought about a 20 land, 5 fast mana, and 1 LED. Both feel ok to me to be honest. But it would be one of those 2 configurations. With Karn you needed to add an additional mana source to the deck. I do think in either configuration you have some options for what that 20th land or 6th fast mana is. For the lands slot it could be the 4th CoT, 2nd Great Furnace, or even a basic Mountain. For the 6 fast mana configuration it should likely be the 2nd SSG, but recently I have considered adding an additional LED, although that is untested and likely not correct.

However, 24 total mana source is likely too few. And yes I am running 3 Copter and 3 Karn. Copter continues to be basically our best first turn play, and I would run 4 if I had the space as I always love it. The Karn count may go up in the end, but I am hesitant to do that at this time. While an amazing card, he sometimes is clunky and you never want two in hand. Also our deck is still designed to operate on 3 mana and getting that or a one time five mana is how the mana base was built. Karn stretches this enough that upping the count to four would likely need a more involved reworking of the man base than we did with the integration of 3 Karn.

Seth