[Deck] Strawberry Shortcake

[Michael Keller]

Outside of Ratchet Bomb your best option for killing a creature is probably Pyrite Spellbomb. I think there are some janky equipment from older sets that allow you to ping creatures as well but those aren't ideal. I'm keeping a copy in my sideboard for sure. I think it's my 3rd most fetched for card with karn, only beaten by bridge and grindstone. I've also thought about putting a painter in the board but before engineer I don't think there was a good enough card for that spot.

e: The coating/shaman combo seems really really good against control decks since you are playing way more bombs in your deck that they have to deal with. I really have no idea how that kind of list beats delver. I guess nuking their lands while they kill you with delver and company is a personal victory.

I've personally never had trouble with Delver decks. You're playing six removal spells and counters for just about every creature they have and depend on. Nothing has changed in that regard.

[8bit9mm]

I've personally never had trouble with Delver decks. You're playing six removal spells and counters for just about every creature they have and depend on. Nothing has changed in that regard.

You act like you've never been deep-dicked by Daze, Wasteland and Gurmag Angler.

Also, UR Delver is just as bad a matchup as Burn, if not worse.

[Michael Keller]

You act like you've never been deep-dicked by Daze, Wasteland and Gurmag Angler.

I’m not saying I haven’t. But I’ve deep-dicked Delver more in the last eleven years playing the deck than I’ve been deep-dicked.


Also, UR Delver is just as bad a matchup as Burn, if not worse.

It’s not great, but it’s certainly easier. The blue dynamic opens up Blasts as spot removal. The saturation of burn spells isn’t as potent, and playing cards like Zuran Orb help out of the board.

[Daize]

I've been half writing a post for a bit and then deleting it, trying to talk more about the philosophy of the deck, trying to understand its strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and threats, to get a bit more controlled about what we're trying to achieve, how, (with the deck), and why we're making changes to the deck. If we look at it like that, and share that, it'd be a lot easier to understand each other and work together.

.. but for now, my cents after some reps:
I'm liking that the Liquimetal Gorilla Package follows the line of the deck in being low cost, tutorable, and often must answer targets. Allows you to be flexible and exchange with welder if necessary (Gorilla will probably die somewhere at some point by itself).

Still, it feels like one of the core strengths of Shortcake is the 3 Enlightened Tutor - whether we'd tutor for the other half of Painter/Grindstone, the Liquimetal Coating, a Blood Moon, a Furnace or a Canonist. There are few targets, but the deck is a complex toolbox. Taking the list that Michael had, I'd definitely add a copter, an enlightened tutor, and probably cut a blast / fast mana. Having the tutor, even by cutting fast mana, made me feel the deck's faster, and the copter feels like a must-answer target, limited by the number of creatures we play, and how much grease and pressure we need in lieu of having the combo ready.

[Michael Keller]

I've been half writing a post for a bit and then deleting it, trying to talk more about the philosophy of the deck, trying to understand its strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and threats, to get a bit more controlled about what we're trying to achieve, how, (with the deck), and why we're making changes to the deck. If we look at it like that, and share that, it'd be a lot easier to understand each other and work together.

.. but for now, my cents after some reps:
I'm liking that the Liquimetal Gorilla Package follows the line of the deck in being low cost, tutorable, and often must answer targets. Allows you to be flexible and exchange with welder if necessary (Gorilla will probably die somewhere at some point by itself).

Still, it feels like one of the core strengths of Shortcake is the 3 Enlightened Tutor - whether we'd tutor for the other half of Painter/Grindstone, the Liquimetal Coating, a Blood Moon, a Furnace or a Canonist. There are few targets, but the deck is a complex toolbox. Taking the list that Michael had, I'd definitely add a copter, an enlightened tutor, and probably cut a blast / fast mana. Having the tutor, even by cutting fast mana, made me feel the deck's faster, and the copter feels like a must-answer target, limited by the number of creatures we play, and how much grease and pressure we need in lieu of having the combo ready.

Part of the problem I've seen with Shortcake is the inherent amount of Tutors since Karn was printed. I mean, between Karn, Imperial Recruiter and Enlightened Tutor, that's a truckload of tutors. I think this is why you're seeing people, at least in passing, mention cutting one E-Tutor, 0-1 Imperial Recruiter, etc.

[Megadeus]

Part of the problem I've seen with Shortcake is the inherent amount of Tutors since Karn was printed. I mean, between Karn, Imperial Recruiter and Enlightened Tutor, that's a truckload of tutors. I think this is why you're seeing people, at least in passing, mention cutting one E-Tutor, 0-1 Imperial Recruiter, etc.

When you think about it though that's about as many tutors as blue decks play cantrips. Obviously it's not quite the same, but it's around the same plan of basically add consistency or try to find the right card in the right situation. And in our case our cards actually in a way do that better

[Michael Keller]

I'm almost positive in the "new" Legacy metagame that's shaping up with Flashback Timetwister, Blasts are going to be stronger the first month or so. I think keeping the count at six would be ideal, at least for the foreseeable future. Consider a seventh in the sideboard.

It looks like LEDs, as an aside, shot up in price overnight and are likely going to continue to climb.

[sroncor1]

I agree with Hollywood that the six blast, seventh in the board is likely the way to go. Jack and I have been on the six maindeck since the first round of testing with Karn and adding the seventh to the board was an easy addition due to the current meta. It will be interesting to see where the new Timetwister takes storm in the coming months. It likely does little to address the hate but it does seem like a better draw engine against non blue decks. I don't play storm so further speculation on my end would be too difficult. Luckily for us, I doubt the match up changes much as our hate remains the same and now our blasts naturally counter there draw engine instead of being worthless against Ad Nauseum without a Painter in play. The match up may change due to the protection they play though, as things like Flusterstorm and FoW may be better as there blue counts rise. All speculation on my end.

@ tutors- I do think we are probably using too much short hand in discussing the tutors. While all of them help improve card selection, they are all "tutors" of various strength and utility. Recruiter remains the only true "tutor" in the deck, and until Karn, the only card advantage in a deck that really wants it. Its' ability to leave a body on the field is only MORE important now after the addition of Copter and Karn to the deck. E tutor allows for us to control our next draw for selective cards all at instant speed. Engineer allows for Entomb like availability of select cards while providing future utility on a body. However, while Recruiter still remains the strongest of the "tutors". He, like all the others, still has downsides and restrictions. That is why each is a boon to us, but none really negate the others. So their additions help the deck but none really serve as replacements. They help improve consistency and reach with more options. I still maintain 4 Recruiters is the correct number and I have a hard time imagining a world where that statement ever changes. Engineer does little to change the importance or utility of E tutor. Engineer serves to help support already existing strategies. But we need to remember that grave hate exists. The beauty of the deck has always been that people needed to respect Welder. they would bring in grave hate and yet it rarely affected us bc while we loved Welder, the graveyard was only a small part of our plan. The inclusion of Engineer adds so many options to our deck, but it does open us to grave hate in a way we really never feared before. Our ability to toe this line allows us to shake off hate. Engineer is a great tool, but he does make us more vulnerable. Something to keep in mind.

But in general, the closer we can come to a xerox shell, the better the deck should perform as we are further reducing variance while not sacrificing power.

Seth

[Michael Keller]

I agree with Hollywood that the six blast, seventh in the board is likely the way to go. Jack and I have been on the six maindeck since the first round of testing with Karn and adding the seventh to the board was an easy addition due to the current meta. It will be interesting to see where the new Timetwister takes storm in the coming months. It likely does little to address the hate but it does seem like a better draw engine against non blue decks. I don't play storm so further speculation on my end would be too difficult. Luckily for us, I doubt the match up changes much as our hate remains the same and now our blasts naturally counter there draw engine instead of being worthless against Ad Nauseum without a Painter in play. The match up may change due to the protection they play though, as things like Flusterstorm and FoW may be better as there blue counts rise. All speculation on my end.

@ tutors- I do think we are probably using too much short hand in discussing the tutors. While all of them help improve card selection, they are all "tutors" of various strength and utility. Recruiter remains the only true "tutor" in the deck, and until Karn, the only card advantage in a deck that really wants it. Its' ability to leave a body on the field is only MORE important now after the addition of Copter and Karn to the deck. E tutor allows for us to control our next draw for selective cards all at instant speed. Engineer allows for Entomb like availability of select cards while providing future utility on a body. However, while Recruiter still remains the strongest of the "tutors". He, like all the others, still has downsides and restrictions. That is why each is a boon to us, but none really negate the others. So their additions help the deck but none really serve as replacements. They help improve consistency and reach with more options. I still maintain 4 Recruiters is the correct number and I have a hard time imagining a world where that statement ever changes. Engineer does little to change the importance or utility of E tutor. Engineer serves to help support already existing strategies. But we need to remember that grave hate exists. The beauty of the deck has always been that people needed to respect Welder. they would bring in grave hate and yet it rarely affected us bc while we loved Welder, the graveyard was only a small part of our plan. The inclusion of Engineer adds so many options to our deck, but it does open us to grave hate in a way we really never feared before. Our ability to toe this line allows us to shake off hate. Engineer is a great tool, but he does make us more vulnerable. Something to keep in mind.

But in general, the closer we can come to a xerox shell, the better the deck should perform as we are further reducing variance while not sacrificing power.

Seth

I'm just throwing this out there - as it's completely untested. I was thinking about the mana base (my construction, anyhow), existing artifacts and Karn, holistically.

Then I came across an interesting interaction that, based on my research, hasn't been identified in any forum or anywhere else I could find:

https://6d4be195623157e28848-7697ece4918e0a73861de0eb37d08968.ssl.cf1.rackcdn.com/3494_200w.jpg https://6d4be195623157e28848-7697ece4918e0a73861de0eb37d08968.ssl.cf1.rackcdn.com/188386_200w.jpg

So, with all of the one drops in play, Lotus Petals, and Karn being able to animate things like Grindstone - in addition to the synergy with Liquimetal Coating, which turns things into artifacts and then creatures by Karn - City of Shadows becomes a serious proposition. Not only are you exiling a creature with it that could be out the door, but you're also able to get back that artifact that you've exiled from City of Shadows that was animated by Karn by using Karn's second ability, and you can do it again. And again. And again.

And the cool thing is, the artifact creature that was animated by Karn stays that way until the next turn. So you could just tap the City in their end step and ramp.

Something to think about. Swing in some proliferate and the card could get up to three or four mana really easily. I'm not saying it's good, but the exile, retrieve, exile synergy with Karn and City hasn't been noticed. At least no place anywhere on the interweb I can find.

[schweinefettmann]

It won’t work well where I tend to play, since wasteland is very real, but it might work? I don’t have any lands to test tho.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Michael Keller]

It won’t work well where I tend to play, since wasteland is very real, but it might work? I don’t have any lands to test tho.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yeah, I'm not sure. I noticed the interaction when I double-checked City of Shadows. I mean, I would absolutely only run it as a one-of. You could make an argument to either not run it or run another City of Traitors, but if the mana base is tweaked, I don't see a problem running it when you consider it's a one-of and a majority of the deck is CMC=1.

Again, completely untested, probably cute and better in EDH - but it's pretty real when it gets going, I would imagine. And if someone Wastes a City of Shadows if a dude is already on the way out, it's not like a 2 for 1 if the smaller dude was going to die anyhow and not deal lethal. Most of these creatures in the deck are power one anyhow.

The real argument for testing it is the synergy with Karn and Coating.

[sroncor1]

I think the real issue against it is that it does nothing the first couple turns of the game. Giving up a land drop that early in a field of wasteland is a real issue. The fourth CoT is def just better than it. Bc it needs a sacrifice before it can generate mana, it is basically a comes into play tapped land. The threshold for a land that enters tapped is likely on the level of the locus lands in ramp lists. The time and resources for this land to reach that level are sort of high, which seems to me at odds with what we are doing.

Seth

[Michael Keller]

I just thought of another interaction: Coating turning Tomb or City into an artifact, Voltaic Key to untap it and net mana. Obviously, only usable with Grim Monolith. But one Key in the board can be interesting.

[schweinefettmann]

i'd be more into the idea of key+coating on welder or something to do a double-weld.. or weld in response to a fatal push/stp?

...actually, that sounds pretty awesome. but a huge resource sink. It could be significantly better in a daretti spaghetti build, where the whole plan is to weld in and out stuff like sundering titans, wurmcoil engines and combustible gearhulks.

to be honest, i think the best use for key would be for grim monoliths, for those who run them. I suspect moreso in an imperial painter/mono red build. But untapping a sol land isn't anything to scoff at either.

[sroncor1]

That seems like a lot of work and resources to get to an extra mana, not to mention the four life you paid from two activations of Ancient Tomb. I can see the value of Key if you are running Monolith, but I don't think it is anything Shortcake wants. The issue will always be the fact that we want fewer cards that do nothing on their own. Grindstone still continues to be one of the worst cards to draw in the deck and its mill feature is not useless with Welder. Adding more of these will only increase our variance or reduce the solutions in the board. Both are situations that we have been trying to move away from.

Seth

[Daize]

we want fewer cards that do nothing on their own.

For that reason exactly I am really looking forward to goblin engineer. Maybe even to replace welder. It does welder and then some.

[sroncor1]

@Daize- Engineer is not likely a replacement for Welder. The mana requirements and the way it affects sequencing is really important. And I think maybe my comment wasn't clear, Welder, while a weenie, isn't a card that does nothing by himself. He is a threat in a deck which relies on a combo kill fueled with artifacts. Mox Monkey and Coating are largely do nothings on their own. If I just remove the other cards that interact with them, they fail to impact the board. Even if you remove the other artifacts, welder is a constant threat to bring them back. Welder requires an answer so that their future interactions can still be impactful. With Voltaic Key, I can largely ignore it until you play something else that matters. And if I deal with that card the Key continues to do nothing. Hopefully that is a little clearer.

Seth

[Megadeus]

@Daize- Engineer is not likely a replacement for Welder. The mana requirements and the way it affects sequencing is really important. And I think maybe my comment wasn't clear, Welder, while a weenie, isn't a card that does nothing by himself. He is a threat in a deck which relies on a combo kill fueled with artifacts. Mox Monkey and Coating are largely do nothings on their own. If I just remove the other cards that interact with them, they fail to impact the board. Even if you remove the other artifacts, welder is a constant threat to bring them back. Welder requires an answer so that their future interactions can still be impactful. With Voltaic Key, I can largely ignore it until you play something else that matters. And if I deal with that card the Key continues to do nothing. Hopefully that is a little clearer.

Seth

Agree with everything here. Pretty much why I don't think I'll be running a coating package in any serious build. Between grindstone with no painter out and copter with no creature out (and in imperial extra moons) there's already a high number of "do nothing" cards.

[Mirrislegend]

What about putting one Liquidmetal Coating in the wishboard (possibly replacing Lattice)? Comes online way faster than Lattice lock and doesn't require Karn to be eternally defended in order to impact the board (ie: blowing up 2 or 3 lands that stay dead when Karn dies). Blowing up one land per turn for no continuous input seems decent.

[sroncor1]

Lattice straight up wins the game. You do not want to replace a situational card for something that wins right there. The issue with putting it in the wish board is tough bc it is now competing with Lattice, Bridge, additional mana, Canonist, or Relic which all likely affect the board state more, and quicker. The value of all those cards, Lattice excluded, is they can really affect the opponent immediately and require no additional support, but they all further support what we are doing. I will admit Lattice is different form the other cards, but if it resolves the game is likely over, and that insane upside is worth running. Liquidmetal's best upside is using Karn every turn likely keep them at 3 mana or less. And i am not sure that is better than just using Karn every turn to attack with Copter, as if they ever deal with Karn all you are left with is a blank vs the advanced board state, sculpted hand, and reduced life total you were able to get with Copter.

I am not anti Coating, I just don't think it is something Shortcake wants. It is likely something that the mono red lists are running as they care about grinding plays. We aren't designed, nor do we have the space to really leverage the card in Shortcake, as it is competing with all those other cards I mentioned above, all of which are interdependently strong and impactful, or straight up game winning.

Seth

[Michael Keller]

You can’t ever cut Lattice with Karn. I play two Coating main and one in the board. I’m pretty tight on the list, but I think there’s clearly healthy division on lists. That’s a good thing.

I think the biggest thing about this deck right now is that there have been so many changes based on the recent printings of excellent cards. Since that affects overall design, it’s hard to say what’s optimal at this point.

[drude1]

What about putting one Liquidmetal Coating in the wishboard (possibly replacing Lattice)? Comes online way faster than Lattice lock and doesn't require Karn to be eternally defended in order to impact the board (ie: blowing up 2 or 3 lands that stay dead when Karn dies). Blowing up one land per turn for no continuous input seems decent.

I don't think I would replace lattice. It's such a strong lock that if you have opponent's creatures under control the game is just over with the combo out. Coating doesn't come close to that. The only benefit of coating over lattice is that it's easier to get on the board. But if you are facing down a slew of attackers on your opponent's side then you are in the same position. Would you ever grab coating in that situation over something like bridge or ballista? Not likely. I do see some relevance with the card but I don't think it can compete with lattice.

On a different note, wondering how much attention people are giving to the new spoilers. I do think Blood Moon will probably get worse with everyone talking about Prismatic Vista. It probably makes sense to stay at 1 copy main. That being the case, what do people think about Sunbaked Canion (http://mythicspoiler.com/mh1/cards/sunbakedcanyon.html)? Does it make sense to fit a couple in just for the draw effect? Might be worth considering as it always sucks to get flooded.

A couple other cards that have caught my interest a little:

1. Shenanigans (http://mythicspoiler.com/mh1/cards/shenanigans.html) - not sure if I love this card or hate it. At sorcery speed we can probably do better. But if you are looking for a recurrent answer to chalice, needle, etc this might be okay. Can also play it after grindstoning it in to the graveyard. Mostly concerned that it could be really good against us, although it is sorcery speed.

2. Magmatic Sinkhole (http://mythicspoiler.com/mh1/cards/magmaticsinkhole.html) - might be decent sideboard answer to troublesome creatures and planeswalker. Might not be bad as a 1-2 of although we aren't filling our graveyards like the cantrip decks are, so delve is a little tougher.

3. On Thin Ice (http://mythicspoiler.com/mh1/cards/onthinice.html) - similarly, not a bad creature removal card. I realize it's just worse that StP in most cases but it does have the advantage of hitting a griselbrand or Emrakul off a Show & Tell. Guess it depends on how worried we are about that match-up. Would obviously also have to substitute snow lands for our basics.

4. Generous Gift (http://mythicspoiler.com/mh1/cards/generousgift.html) - again, interesting removal card. Granted, Beast Within doesn't see a lot of play in legacy but this does answer ALL PERMANENTS so is an answer to planeswalkers and scary lands (response to stage-depths trigger). Can also turn a non-essential piece of ours into a 3/3 dude for blocking, copter activation, etc.

5. Talisman of Conviction (R/W talisman) - just in case someone wanted this as their extra mana spot (vs 20th land). Probably better than the signet. Also, Arcum's Astrolabe (http://mythicspoiler.com/mh1/cards/arcumsastrolabe.html) is interesting as a one of as you could get it with engineer to fix your mana and the cantrip ability makes it decent to weld in and out for card advantage. Again, probably too cute given the space restrictions we have but worth considering.

Also, don't know if you guys listen to the Eternal Glory podcast or not but Jack got mentioned briefly on this week's show. They were talking about Karn.

[Mirrislegend]

Lattice straight up wins the game. You do not want to replace a situational card for something that wins right there. My primary reasoning was speed. However, you're correct that they're both super situational. But one situation is "Win the game" and the other is "maybe blow up some lands."


I am not anti Coating, I just don't think it is something Shortcake wants. It is likely something that the mono red lists are running as they care about grinding plays. We aren't designed, nor do we have the space to really leverage the card in Shortcake. This makes a lot of sense. Coating may go in Imperial, but not in Shortcake.

[Michael Keller]

Coating may go in Imperial, but not in Shortcake.

I disagree. There's only a white splash to support what is a dwindling number of white cards overall. I think there's no right or wrong way to design the deck with new cards. The base colors are still red and white, it's still Painter and the overall makeup of the deck has changed over the years. At this point, it's incredibly volatile.

I'll double-down and say it's actually where the deck wants to be, due in large part to the power of Karn. Jamming cards into the sideboard, in my mind, isn't good enough. If there are multiple cards with synergistic qualities in the deck and smaller, effective combos that also have those synergies with most of the other cards in the deck, then why is it not good enough for R/w? What specifically disqualifies these options, especially in the wake of multiple impacting new printings, from being effective in Shortcake going forward?

[Kap'n Cook]

The white splash has always been to incorporate Enlightened Tutor, and the varying degrees of other white cards being ran really just depends on the current meta. Just because Canonists are being trimmed really doesn't change the pretty big differences between running Imperial vs Shortcake, since with top the only white cards we were running were usually in the board anyways like Rest in Peace, Canonist, and Ajani, and EE i guess can be considered white.

Coating is certainly interesting, it offers the ability to swiss army knife stone rain, rishadan port, pithing needle when Karn is out, and turn your lands/recruiters/etc into welder/engineer fodder when he isn't. I get that is why Monkey is included, as he is 1 mana mini-Karn. If you want that ability maindeck, I would say it should be viewed a step below Blood Moon/Ensnaring Bridge/Canonist as those are the hate cards we probably should have as 1-ofs main, so you would then start looking into chopping mana, blasts, or copters, or starting to encroach into welder territory. My issue is that Coating is geared towards making the deck more dnt-lite, while copter helps speed the deck up and is probably better than coating when Karn isn't in play. Mox Monkey would have to be viewed against the same batch of cards, and my preference is usually towards making Welder as powerful as possible when he's active, since he supports the Painter/Stone combo and Ensnaring Bridge plan, while Mox Monkey doesn't. That's my biggest strike against it. 1 coating in the board i think makes more sense as a control-hate piece, so that you can always have Karn available when you want it. I think it comes down to playstyle, do you want more towards fast combo or more of a midrange artifact machine. The new meta is really going to be the Wild West, so there will be a lot of cool things to experiment with.

We've reached an interesting crossroads, with Karn being legal for a month now, yet the list is guaranteed to change again with the incorporation of Modern Horizons and the new archetypes that are spawned/rebirthed/strengthened. Goblin Engineer primarily for us, but other decks are getting serious power boosts too. 1 Sunbaked Canyon is an interesting card to try also.

With that in mind, I finally reached 60 matches played with Karn. I went 39-21 for 65%. Highlights were the first try top 8 in the challenge, playing back-to-back-to-back leagues going 3-2, 4-1, 5-0 in order, and going a combined 17-4 against ANT, Grix Control, and Miracles Lowlights have been going a combined 3-6 vs Death and Taxes and Elves, The lists were all varying degrees of what I've posted around here, with sideboard slots being tested and scrapped. Lots of mistakes as well, so I'm still really confident moving forward as we get more reps with Karn.

Free Nedleeds

[Davek]

The more i look at the metagame, the more i think a singleton absolute law could come in pretty handy in sb… bolts, p.fires, k. commands and abrades are everywhere!

[Mirrislegend]

The more i look at the metagame, the more i think a singleton absolute law could come in pretty handy in sb… bolts, p.fires, k. commands and abrades are everywhere!

Some of us were playing Hanna's Custody in the SB for a while. Sounds like it would be pretty good in your metagame.

[Kap'n Cook]

Just got 3rd in the starcity power tournament, winning a mox emerald. Deck is bomb

[Daize]

Congratulations! Looking forward to hearing reports & knowin if there's any coverage ^^. Awesome.

[Hisa]

Just got 3rd in the starcity power tournament, winning a mox emerald. Deck is bomb

Keep on crushing it! (https://youtu.be/hx5Nl9H5goI?t=73)

[Alex_UNLIMITED]

I have a question about the third Ethersworn Canonist in the sideboard: does it stays there (for Karn, the Great Creator) or it's a side in against some decks?

[sroncor1]

Against storm you should bring them in as the E tutor for Canonist is likely your best play there. Otherwise its probably best to keep one in the board.

Updates are coming. Jack did great last weekend, and we feel like the sideboard is finally shaping up. We are working on the last couple slots in the deck, but right now I think our lists are basically 74/75, which is the likely the closest they have ever been. I am trying to test the maindeck with Engineer, working on sequencing and mulling at this time. The issue with that is that the London mull rules will further complicate this. It will likely be another month before I can get an updated list on teh first page. I also think we will be able to post some thoughts, ideas on hands to keep and basic sideboarding and match up analysis. Due to the complexity of the deck and the issues with play draw, I am doubtful we will ever be able to get more exact that that.

Either way stay tuned. I need another 30-40 games with the Engineer, but so far the list is still operating around 60% or so on MTGO. Obviously variance and small sample size swing some of the numbers, but teh deck feels good.

Seth

[Mirrislegend]

Against storm you should bring them in as the E tutor for Canonist is likely your best play there. Otherwise its probably best to keep one in the board.

Updates are coming. Jack did great last weekend, and we feel like the sideboard is finally shaping up. We are working on the last couple slots in the deck, but right now I think our lists are basically 74/75, which is the likely the closest they have ever been. I am trying to test the maindeck with Engineer, working on sequencing and mulling at this time. The issue with that is that the London mull rules will further complicate this. It will likely be another month before I can get an updated list on teh first page. I also think we will be able to post some thoughts, ideas on hands to keep and basic sideboarding and match up analysis. Due to the complexity of the deck and the issues with play draw, I am doubtful we will ever be able to get more exact that that.

Either way stay tuned. I need another 30-40 games with the Engineer, but so far the list is still operating around 60% or so on MTGO. Obviously variance and small sample size swing some of the numbers, but teh deck feels good.

Seth

I thought you leave the 3rd Canonist in the SB against storm, because you have Karn to shut off their Petals and buy you time. Whereas vs Elves and other combo decks without artifact mana, Karn doesn't hate on the opponent, so bringing in the 3rd Canonist is the best way to maximize your hate density.

[sroncor1]

@ Mirrislegend- To be fair leaving it in the board and waiting till turn three to resolve it is likely too slow against storm. Yes Karn does help there, but there ability to just chain rituals and then Past in Flames will easily beat Karn after you spent your second turn tapping out for him. For elves, the addition of bolts and Painter on blue, allow you to disrupt the key elves or counter the NO which is the key way to interact with them. We are working on figuring out these positions, but I think you likely want to be bringing the Canonist in against storm, and likely Elves for that matter. You can always use Karn to get nice value even without the Canonist there. Relic, Crypt, and Bridge all have applications there.

Seth

[Mirrislegend]

@ Mirrislegend- To be fair leaving it in the board and waiting till turn three to resolve it is likely too slow against storm. Yes Karn does help there, but there ability to just chain rituals and then Past in Flames will easily beat Karn after you spent your second turn tapping out for him. For elves, the addition of bolts and Painter on blue, allow you to disrupt the key elves or counter the NO which is the key way to interact with them. We are working on figuring out these positions, but I think you likely want to be bringing the Canonist in against storm, and likely Elves for that matter. You can always use Karn to get nice value even without the Canonist there. Relic, Crypt, and Bridge all have applications there.

Seth

That's a good point. Storm can be SO FAST :'(

I'm worried I'll miss Pyroclasm if I switch to Bolt. Are you not worried about the volume of creatures from Elves, Goblins, Young Peezy, Empty the Warrens, and DnT?

How many Engineer are you testing?

[CptHaddock]

That's a good point. Storm can be SO FAST :'(

I'm worried I'll miss Pyroclasm if I switch to Bolt. Are you not worried about the volume of creatures from Elves, Goblins, Young Peezy, Empty the Warrens, and DnT?

How many Engineer are you testing?

If you're worried about multiple creatures you can always play something like pyrokinesis or play some split of chasms/bolts.

[sroncor1]

@ Bolt vs Pyroclasm- I think its a push and pull to be honest. Yes there are times where you will miss the mass removal, but there are also other times when you can just destroy a Mentor or planeswalker. Bolt is still strong aganst Elves and Goblins and does help to disrupt their axis of attack. So I could see the concern but I think Bolt just helps a littel more, especially at its mana cost. We also are less incentivized to destroy the world with another Goblin welder in the deck. There is now more downside to casting Pyroclasm, which is something you need to think about when evaluating its upside.

I am testing 2 Goblin Engineer, and that feels right. i am not sure you want more than that at this time, but teh card is as fantastic as we thought...


Seth

[Daize]

Let's not forget about Bridge and Canonist here. Bolt has been amazing for me and fills its role (EDIT: exactly like Seth ninja-posted ;-) - it's more versatile, flexible, and cheaper), while Bridge is still a blanket all-star.

I would want to add more thoughts here, but I don't really know what to say. a 3/3 or 3/2 split of the welder brothers has been feeling great online, and I can't wait to get it going on paper. I feel it's now up to the metagame to take its new shape and we'll see. We just need to roll up our sleeves and get reps in.

[Mirrislegend]

I'm honestly a little surprised to hear high praise about Goblin Engineer. I figured he'd be too clunky and too risky. I was planning on testing 1 (fit nicely into my flex slot!). Now I have to find room for another one :( Is going down to 1 MD Canonist worth it? I suppose she CAN be fetched with Engineer.

[sroncor1]

Engineer is great. He doesn't replace Welder or E. tutor, but serves as a really nice compliment. His ability to get around Chalice is a really nice touch. He does streamline the deck and allow for more consistency. He finally allows a way for Recruiter to fetch a Grindstone which is great way to increase flexibility. He also makes the deck less linear, while not reducing our ability to combo.

Seth

[Alex_UNLIMITED]

I am testing 2 Goblin Engineer, and that feels right. i am not sure you want more than that at this time, but teh card is as fantastic as we thought...
Do you play 3 Smuggler's Copter? I don't like that card to much, alone on the board is pretty useless, even if with Goblin Engineer can be a little better.
About Enlightened Tutor, do you still play 3 of them, even with Goblin Engineer?

[Daize]

Have you played him with the rough creature count that's used in most lists here?

I wonder what the correlation is between people not liking copter in shortcake and not having tried him out. He is way better than he may look in theory for sure. I was also surprised, but nothing beats actual testing results..

[Darklingske]

Have you played him with the rough creature count that's used in most lists here?

I wonder what the correlation is between people not liking copter in shortcake and not having tried him out. He is way better than he may look in theory for sure. I was also surprised, but nothing beats actual testing results..

I've played him on several occasions and really don't like it. It sits most of the time alone on board or when I can attack (or block) I don't have enough cards in hand or don't want to loot them away. I have a great dislike about it.

[CptHaddock]

I've played him on several occasions and really don't like it. It sits most of the time alone on board or when I can attack (or block) I don't have enough cards in hand or don't want to loot them away. I have a great dislike about it.

I don't really understand this, even if you're not looting you are still clocking your opponent or buying time to find the combo, a bridge or whatever else prevents you from dying. Why is that a bad thing? If you are playing copter you just have to be cognizant that it is in your deck. That means that instead of playing every land you draw, you keep a few in your hand to loot away with copter.

[SDBobPlissken]

I've played him on several occasions and really don't like it. It sits most of the time alone on board or when I can attack (or block) I don't have enough cards in hand or don't want to loot them away. I have a great dislike about it.

I understand what you mean. However an early copter followed up with a creature the next turn that can crew and swing in for 3 in the air by turn 2 as well as filter through our deck is really valuable for not playing blue. Copter is pretty much our Delver. Your opponent needs to deal with it or they are going to die from damage while you are filtering for better cards. Are you running 16 creatures? I agree sometimes it does just sit there but when he’s active it is a threat your opponent needs to deal with. Also remember that Karn can crew the copter and swing in for two as well. So that should account for almost 1/3 of your deck that can crew copter.

I’m really liking Goblin Engineer as well. I feel like that card has pretty much made Shortcake into more of a toolbox combo deck. We have so many ways to find the cards we need now between recruiter, enlightened tutor, Karn, and now goblin engineer.. I’m also not really worried if more grave hate is brought in against us because of engineer because Karn can just get it back for us.

I am hesitant to cut an enlightened tutor for an engineer because I still value being able to EOT enlightened tutor for blood moon and then cast it on turn 2. It still comes up somewhat frequently for me.

[Darklingske]

I don't really understand this, even if you're not looting you are still clocking your opponent or buying time to find the combo, a bridge or whatever else prevents you from dying. Why is that a bad thing? If you are playing copter you just have to be cognizant that it is in your deck. That means that instead of playing every land you draw, you keep a few in your hand to loot away with copter.

Maybe I'm playing in a weird environment, but my opponents usually let the copter resolve and just clean up the crew. And I'm very famous for having the most ridiculous manascrews, so I'm not very willing to just throw (loot) my lands away.

[Megadeus]

Copter is a clock, card filtering, and a way to get artifacts into yard for our welders as well as being an artifact to loot away themselves. Also remember the ability is a may so you don't have to do its ability. I definitely have had a few times where I'm creature light and copter is meh, but considering all of the synergies listed above I think it's worth it. And like it was said, it's also good with Karn since it still has the abilities when animated with him

[sroncor1]

@ Copter- I echo what most are saying. The card is fantastic and I would play a fourth if I had the room. It is even better with Engineer. The clock is critical to evaluating teh card as it often requires an answer saving our better stuff. Its ability to favorably interact with Planeswalker is very important. Yes sometimes it sits there, but we have so many ways to crew it that usually you are safe. Some of that may just be on the hands you kept being suboptimal. With respect to the filtering, even if you like all the cards in your hand it never hurts to draw another card and discard the worst card in your hand, especially when we have 5 dudes that can likely just cast that card for little to no mana.

@E. Tutor- I am still on 3 at this time. I would think of Engineer as a compliment to E tutor rather than a replacement. I was trying to write an updated primer last night and some of these thoughts will be further fleshed out in it. I got 2 pages in before I was tired. I will try to get the second post on the front page updated with this document and thoughts. Then I will likely just update it as I write up the match up analysis and sideboarding. Untill the new mulligan rule takes effect, lots of that will change.

But below is the deck I would likely run, except I want 16 cards in the board so I need one cut at this time, just not sure what that will be.

Creatures
4 Imperial Recruiters
4 Painter’s Servant
3 Goblin Welder
2 Goblin Engineer
1 Goblin Cratermaker
1 Ethersworn Canonist

Artifacts
3 Grindstone
3 Smuggler’s Copter
1 Ensnaring Bridge

Planeswalkers
3 Karn, the Great Creator

Enchantments
1 Blood Moon

Spells
4 Pyroblast
2 REB
3 E tutor

Mana
4 Lotus Petal
1 SSG
1 LED
5 fetch lands
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Mountains
2 Plateau
2 Great Furnace

Sideboard
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Lattice
1 Grindstone
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitis
1 Walking Ballista

Seth

[Alex_UNLIMITED]

I’m really liking Goblin Engineer as well. I feel like that card has pretty much made Shortcake into more of a toolbox combo deck.

I think that it's not a good choice to have single copies of some important artifacts with Goblin Engineer in the maindeck. For example, if I have only one Ensnaring Bridge in my maindeck, and I need it, I can search it with Goblin Engineer. The problem is that if the Goblin Engineer dies, or the artifact I want to switch dies, I can't search another Ensnaring Bridge with Enlightened Tutor. I might not have the time to find a Goblin Welder or a second Goblin Engineer, in order to "reanimate" that single Ensnaring Bridge.



I am hesitant to cut an enlightened tutor for an engineer because I still value being able to EOT enlightened tutor for blood moon and then cast it on turn 2. It still comes up somewhat frequently for me.
I don't think that Blood Moon is really good right now, with all those Miracles and UR Delver. That's a good card in a particular metagame, not good in much others.
Turn 2 Blood Moon is good, but a lot of decks (like Miracles, UR Delver, Burn) used to have it in the sideboard even if they can make it only on turn 3.

[sroncor1]

@Alex_UNLIMITED- Yes there is risk with the entomb of the Engineer. But there is also upside. Often times the match ups where you need the Bridge, the Engineer will be able to untap bc they either dont have removal, or hopefully spent it on your other threats as you should slow roll the Bridge in those match ups so that you are able to get maximum value from attacking. Also you have a copy in teh board with Karn, so we are effectively running many more copies of the card in teh main deck and side at this point. There is no room to run more Bridges in Shortcake. So if you are worried about the Engineer dying before he can weld in the Bridge, dont get a Bridge with his effect. In the end you only run one Bridge maindeck anyway. When you do grab it, you do so bc you are basically fucked without it and you need it now. Otherwise the Engineer should be garbiing more high value targets.

@Blood Moon has its place in the deck. It def should not be more of a singleton in the main at this point, but there are plenty of decks that it hurts. Miracles, Grixis, Maverick, and to some extent Lands. It is not as strong as it use to be, but it does play a nice role helping to lock some of those decks off colors which can be huge. It can be a liablity against Lands list with Dark Depths interaction, but with Karn able to blow up Mox Diamond, you can still really mess with their mana. BLood Moon is still very strong against Miracles, even the UW variants. Its ability to help keep them off double blue while stopping shuffling is a nice effect that allows you to grind there.

One thing to remember, we are a tier 1.5 deck. some match ups are terrible, sometimes our specific cards are just god awful in match ups. that comes with the territory.

Seth

[Alex_UNLIMITED]

@Alex_UNLIMITED- Yes there is risk with the entomb of the Engineer. But there is also upside. Often times the match ups where you need the Bridge, the Engineer will be able to untap bc they either dont have removal, or hopefully spent it on your other threats as you should slow roll the Bridge in those match ups so that you are able to get maximum value from attacking. Also you have a copy in teh board with Karn, so we are effectively running many more copies of the card in teh main deck and side at this point. There is no room to run more Bridges in Shortcake. So if you are worried about the Engineer dying before he can weld in the Bridge, dont get a Bridge with his effect. In the end you only run one Bridge maindeck anyway. When you do grab it, you do so bc you are basically fucked without it and you need it now. Otherwise the Engineer should be garbiing more high value targets.
I think I understand what do you mean. That's ok, only one Ensnaring Bridge in the maindeck seems enough.


BLood Moon is still very strong against Miracles, even the UW variants. Its ability to help keep them off double blue while stopping shuffling is a nice effect that allows you to grind there.
I think that that the problem is Teferi, Time Traveler, that's very good against Blood Moon. Do you keep Blood Moon in g2 against Miracles? If so, what do you prefer to side out?

[sroncor1]

Yes I would def keep moon in on the play at least. Maybe on the draw I side it out. I mean Teferi isnt terrible to deal with, We have so many blasts and copter just punsihes that card. Per my previous post, I will be posting more indepth sideboarding approaches.

Seth

[Kap'n Cook]

Blood Moon against Miracles is a weird card. I like to think of it as a way to steal one game in the match. If it takes game 1, I probably would take it out for games 2 and 3. If game 1 or game 2 you get the vibe that they are a dual heavy deck and weren't respect Blood Moon, you might be able to cheese out a postboard game with it on the play.


I also put this together. Enjoy: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?33044-Source-Wars-Episode-I-The-Phantom-Meta

[Mirrislegend]

Fantastic! Thank you!

Regarding the new list:
I'm surprised to see you back on 19 land. Were there problems with 20?
Is trimming Canonist really wise given the resurgence of Xerox decks? Would 1 Engineer not suffice?

Lastly, you didn't board-in/wish-for Ballista nor Engineered Explosives even once. What matchups are they for?

[Kap'n Cook]

Fantastic! Thank you!

Regarding the new list:
I'm surprised to see you back on 19 land. Were there problems with 20?
Is trimming Canonist really wise given the resurgence of Xerox decks? Would 1 Engineer not suffice?

Lastly, you didn't board-in/wish-for Ballista nor Engineered Explosives even once. What matchups are they for?


20 was only because the new mulligan rule isn't live yet. I did find myself flooding a decent amount, although it wasn't really the 20th lands fault.

Canonist is bad in enough game 1s that going down to 1 copy to fit in another Engineer makes sense to start out. The list took some finagling because I still wanted at least 3 in the 75.

I plan to cut explosives because it is only really there to sweep chalice, which Karn already does, and as a value wrath from the side, which I've almost never used.

Ballista helps answer some weird board states and in general is just a good value guy, who can be cast anywhere along the curve. He overlaps with EE somewhat, and I'd rather keep the target that can close out the game with direct damage

[Mirrislegend]

Engineer seems to leave a very positive impression on everyone who has played him (I haven't had a chance to do so yet). What do you generally Entomb with him? I'm concerned about his tutor target getting hated away before/during activation.

[schweinefettmann]

Engineer seems to leave a very positive impression on everyone who has played him (I haven't had a chance to do so yet). What do you generally Entomb with him? I'm concerned about his tutor target getting hated away before/during activation.

I guess it's a more all-in play style.

I'm not sure it's earned its place in shortcake though. in imperial painter yes, probably, and definitely awesome in spaghetti.

In terms of targets though, if your opponent isn't doing anything relevant yet, copter would be the go-to for me. Otherwise, it could be anything from bridge to coating (if you play that). It sorta depends on what you consider to be problematic (or going to become problematic), and how you wanna deal with it.

I feel like engineer is better if you've already got an active welder though, especially if your opponent is threatening a grave hate.

[Mirrislegend]

In terms of targets though, if your opponent isn't doing anything relevant yet, copter would be the go-to for me. That's the primary use that I foresee for it, which is one that I'm definitely happy with. I have many times topdecked a late game Recruiter and wished it could get a Copter! But that use really only requires 1 Engineer in the list.


I feel like engineer is better if you've already got an active welder though, especially if your opponent is threatening a grave hate. Agreed. But how to reach that state? 4 Welder and 1 Engineer is obviously not right, so a 3/2 split makes sense. So, in my mind, Engineer definitely incentivizes getting Welder with Recruiter, which is not a sequence this deck usually wants.

I'm definitely interested to hear the results of the play experience from Jack, rather than get stuck theorycrafting again.

[drude1]

Some random thoughts after testing post-Modern Horizons...

1. Engineer is for real. I've been testing a 3/3 split with welder and engineer and it has been really good. Welder into engineer in particular is just ridiculous. It opens so many lines for the deck. Yes, there is a little risk with grabbing a one of out of the deck with engineer, but to sroncor's point not only do you have Karn to grab something like bridge, but you also have other welders, engineers and recruiters to go get your goblins. So your odds of getting something out of your graveyard is still much better than drawing the tutor. The redundancy of 6 welder effects is crazy good. I have had some learning-curve issues as I'm so used to welder that I was sometimes not counting the 1 red to use engineer when setting up my combo turn. That just takes more practice.

2. I think anything less that 4 Karn is wrong. One reason I say that is because bomberman is one of the best decks in the format right now, and Karn just wrecks that deck. It's also very good against control match-ups (Miracles and grixis) and grixis is very popular. I also really like how our tutor package works around drawing cards so Narset isn't nearly as good against us vs other decks. Karn is just this 1 card win condition against so many decks. There are so many match-ups that are no-karn I lose vs karn I win, particularly grixis control. It makes surgical a minor speed bump at worst. It also really isn't that difficult to cast in this deck most of the time and I really want one in hand every game.

3. I agree that bolt is probably where we want to be and am definitely on board with that change. It just answers so many problems that cards like pyroclasm just can't deal with, particularly with all the Planeswalkers seeing play now. Wren and Six is very popular and getting it off the board quickly is important. And obviously with the explosion of dreadhorde arcanist the extra one point of damage is pretty important.

4. With engineer in the deck, there are a couple small adjustments I would consider making to the deck. For example, it might be that ratchet bomb is better than E.E. again. The fact that you can find it with engineer and tick it up or blow it up with just a tap are both good. It obviously can be a little slower at times, but in particular if you are playing it to get rid of things like chalice or a thousand goblins, it's quite good. Another change I would make is to get rid of ballista. I feel like I would really want something that I can get some use out of from the graveyard. I mentioned this earlier in the forum but I honestly still don't have an answer for a replacement. I do feel that revoker seems to be going up in value with all the planeswalkers getting played. I could also again see things like pyrite spellbomb, cursed scroll, liquimetal coating (?), or maybe even something like retrofitter foundry, although seems like a stretch. Would love to hear other ideas.

5.For me, vote's still not in on Blood Moon. There are some times when it isn't that great, but others where I wish I was playing a playset, as blood moon on turn 1 is much different than blood moon on turn 3, particularly against lands, grixis, and any sort of depths combo. I was playing 3 Blood Moon for a while now and when it shines, it shines, but it can also be bad. It's probably right to be at 1 in the main though.

Now here's where I really go off the deep end again...

6. In lieu of cutting 2 Blood Moon in my list, I have been trying a 1 x Tangle Wire, and I've gotta say I kinda like it. It's relevant against nearly every deck in the format and since we are so permanent heavy, it allows you to set up turns where you tap down your opponent and then either have enough permanents to have it not effect you or you weld it out for something more important on your own turn. If you get more than one welder effect on the board you can shut your opponent down for multiple turns. It really feels like a weldable blood moon.
Admittedly, my sample size is limited right now but it is something I will continue to test in the practice room at the very least.

A couple other cards I'm also toying with...

-Sunbaked Canyon - trying this as a one of. Gives us our colors and helps from being flooded. It's been...okay. Biggest concern is that the damage can start to add up with this and the tombs. So if this is your only color source of mana it can sometimes leave a mark. The nice thing is that it is an extra way to tutor for something and then draw it. Would definitely consider in the "20th land" spot.

-dispeller's capsule - a recurring way to kill artifacts and enchantments. Close to making my sideboard but really depends on the meta. Mostly like it against needle effects. Not currently making the cut.

-sunbeam spellbomb - might be okay tech against burn or U/R delver. 5 life a shot isn't bad. Having said that, I haven't seen much burn lately.

If I were to play the deck in a larger tournament tomorrow, this would be my list....

3 x welder
1 x canonist
3 x engineer
3 x painter
3 x recruiter (I know, blasphemy)
1 x SSG

1 x LED
4 x petal
3 x e.tutor
3 x grindstone
4 x pyroblast
2 x REB
3 x copter (would consider the 3rd copter as my flex spot and could see a cratermaker there)
1 x blood moon
1 x tangle wire
1 x bridge
4 x karn

4 x tomb
4 x fetch
3 x city of traitors
2 x great furnace
3 x mountain
2 x plateau
1 x sunbaked canyon

SB
1 x painter
1 x grindstone
1 x LED
1 x lattice
1 x canonist (or maybe 3ball)
1 x ratchet bomb
1 x bridge
1 x relic
1 x tormod (considering replacing either this or relic with Grafdigger's cage, given the increased popularity of arcanist and the resurgence of elves)
2 x surgical
4 x bolt

[Mirrislegend]

@drude1: With 4 Karn, a land you might sacrifice, and that extra mana to play and to activate Engineer, I am certain that you need a 20th land.

[drude1]

@drude1: With 4 Karn, a land you might sacrifice, and that extra mana to play and to activate Engineer, I am certain that you need a 20th land.

Until London mulligan kicks in you are probably correct.

[Alex_UNLIMITED]

I plan to cut explosives because it is only really there to sweep chalice, which Karn already does
So why do you want to keep the Goblin Cratermaker in the maindeck?

[drude1]

So why do you want to keep the Goblin Cratermaker in the maindeck?It kills opposing Karns.... And Emrakul.

[L10]

Why the 1/1 split between Relic and Crypt? I like playing two Crypts, one as wish target and the other as a tutor/engineer target vs. SnT.

[Scott]

No rest for the weary, Shortcakers. Now that you're done rebuilding after War of the Spork, it's time to rebuild again. This list (https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=22244&d=350684&f=LE) with a 2 Goblin Engineer/3 Goblin Welder split 5-0'd a MTGO League.

// 19 Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 City of Traitors
2 Great Furnace
3 Mountain
2 Plateau
2 Wooded Foothills

// 16 Creatures
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Goblin Cratermaker
2 Goblin Engineer
3 Goblin Welder
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter's Servant
1 Simian Spirit Guide

// 12 Artifacts
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Grindstone
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Smuggler's Copter

// 9 Instants
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast

// 3 Planeswalkers
3 Karn, the Great Creator

// 1 Enchantment
1 Blood Moon

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Grindstone
SB: 4 Lightning Bolt
SB: 1 Mycosynth Lattice
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Walking Ballista

[sroncor1]

No rest for the weary, Shortcakers. Now that you're done rebuilding after War of the Spork, it's time to rebuild again. This list (https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=22244&d=350684&f=LE) with a 2 Goblin Engineer/3 Goblin Welder split 5-0'd a MTGO League.

// 19 Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 City of Traitors
2 Great Furnace
3 Mountain
2 Plateau
2 Wooded Foothills

// 16 Creatures
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Goblin Cratermaker
2 Goblin Engineer
3 Goblin Welder
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter's Servant
1 Simian Spirit Guide

// 12 Artifacts
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Grindstone
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Smuggler's Copter

// 9 Instants
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast

// 3 Planeswalkers
3 Karn, the Great Creator

// 1 Enchantment
1 Blood Moon

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Grindstone
SB: 4 Lightning Bolt
SB: 1 Mycosynth Lattice
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Walking Ballista

Yes that is the 75 jack and I have been testing online. I am not sure what your meaning is as we are actively testing

Cratermaker is still there Bc he has upside. He still kills things on demand, can remove troublesome artifacts and serves as an answer to opposing Karn. We initially tried to cut him but in the end that utility was just something we need.

Crypt be relic is based upon the different uses of the card. Relics ability to grind in some board states is really nice. We have talked about upping the crypt count to 2 so it’s easily tutorable games 2 and 3.

3/2 Welder Engineer split feels good so far. The power is good without making the gravehate risk too high.

I am still not sold on 4 Karn in the list. While he is awesome, parts of our deck aren’t designed to use him as a focal point of our approach. Now maybe we should consider that, but as Shortcake is constructed, that isn’t where we are right now. It is likely that the mono red lists should go with 4 Karn, 4 Recruiter but they are all over the place at this time.

New primer is coming. Hopefully work will be slow this week and I’ll start to be able to roll it out.

Seth

[Megadeus]

Is anyone else slightly worried about the lands matchup? It used to be Moon + Bridge was pretty much GG, but Force of vigor has me kind of worried. I guess the best way to combat it is painter on blue with blasts?

[drude1]

Is anyone else slightly worried about the lands matchup? It used to be Moon + Bridge was pretty much GG, but Force of vigor has me kind of worried. I guess the best way to combat it is painter on blue with blasts?

That and Karn into lattice just wins. The other good news is that with engineer you can just combo off much faster. I would probably consider using tutors for combo pieces vs Blood Moon in post-SB games.

OR TRY TANGLE WIRE!!!:tongue:

[Scott]

I am not sure what your meaning is as we are actively testing

Yes, that's exactly what I mean. I've seen you guys talk about how the list was already in flux after War of the Spork and Karn, and how you've been doing a lot of testing and reformulating the barely-settled list, with the addition of Goblin Engineer. Obviously the posted finish is a result of all that testing that's still going on, and it's the first finish I've seen for the new list.

[Alex_UNLIMITED]

Crypt be relic is based upon the different uses of the card. Relics ability to grind in some board states is really nice. We have talked about upping the crypt count to 2 so it’s easily tutorable games 2 and 3.
I don't understand. Relic of Progenitus is a good card in what situations? I have replaced it with a Faerie Macabre, that is tutorable on turn 1 with Imperial Recruiter.

[Michael Keller]

I don't understand. Relic of Progenitus is a good card in what situations? I have replaced it with a Faerie Macabre, that is tutorable on turn 1 with Imperial Recruiter.

For me personally, I had Grafdigger's Cage in the board as an additional tool for Storm, but I've since cut it because of Goblin Engineer. There's a little more dependency on the graveyard, and even though it's a sideboard slot, I still have doubts about it. I think a pair of Extractions with a Crypt is fine; Welder and Engineer can recur it, and Karn and Tutor can find it (if it's brought in).

[drude1]

I don't understand. Relic of Progenitus is a good card in what situations? I have replaced it with a Faerie Macabre, that is tutorable on turn 1 with Imperial Recruiter.

If I were going to replace one of the current graveyard cards with a macabre, it would probably be a surgical; not a relic. I understand the desire to be able to tutor for a graveyard hater with recruiter, but you do really want two artifact hate cards so that you can keep one in the board for karn to fetch and bring one into the deck for e.tutor and engineer to fetch. Relic is good against certain strategies where they are depending on a critical mass of cards in the graveyard such as gurmag, snapcaster and dreadhorde as well as the whole dredge deck. It is also nice because you can exile one of your own cards to fetch with karn or to dodge an opponent's surgical.

Personally, I do think one could make an argument for Grafdigger's Cage as a replacement to relic. The benefit being that it does a better job of shutting off dreadhorde and snapcaster and has value against elves and other green sun decks. Then again, relic is way better against lands. Cage can sometimes get in the way of our own welder effects.

[sroncor1]

@Scott- HAHA sorry, yeah I was just confused there. the list is fairly well tuned at this point. I figure we might have a few adjustments as teh meta works itself out, but in general it is rounding up nicely. I wanted to post it on here, as I want to get the next version of the primer, but I am slow at that shit.

@Lands- I have not found teh match up to be that difficult. I would def rate it is favorable for us, both the depth and teh RG variants. Blood Moon id ok here, but Karn and the rest are really strong. Having Copter to attack their life while you assemble the combo o go for Karn makes it hard for them as they are not built to fight on two fronts.

@Gravehate- Initially we ere on 1 Crypt, 1 Relic, and 2 Surgical. In general this felt great, but tehre were times when a second turn Karn getting and resolving Gravehate would be something that could have won a game. Against fast decks you really want teh Crypt main so that you can easily get it with E tutor. This forced us to consider adding an additional Crypt to the board. Now the plan is bring in the 1 Crypt, 1 Relic, and 2 surgical and leave the 1 Crypt in the board. This has worked ok I think. Of note we are basically not doing this to address BR Reanimator. Jack and I are of teh mind that we are just so bad there that giving up space to fight it better isnt worth it at this time. You can beat it with the current list, it is just unfavorable. I would not add the Macabra in place of a Surgical. While the both are turn zero plays the big thing Surgical does is allow you to remove shit like FoW or STP from the game whihc can be back breaking against Miracles, Stoneblade, and other decks.

@Relic- It is generally just a good value spell. Yes Crypt is faster, but relic has more utility. Many times you just need to grind out a position in a game. Relic allows for this. It exiles your yard and itself to make Karn loops a real thing. It replaces itself which actually allows you te get ahead of your opponent while disrupting them. So while it isnt the fastest or most elegant solution to graveyards, it has really nice utility with the way we have built the deck. Just for its ability to exile our yard and itself is worth playing as it creates a round about way for Karn to get Painter. Hopefully this helps and clears ups why it is really a spell you need to have access to.

Seth

[Alex_UNLIMITED]

@Gravehate- Initially we ere on 1 Crypt, 1 Relic, and 2 Surgical. In general this felt great, but tehre were times when a second turn Karn getting and resolving Gravehate would be something that could have won a game. Against fast decks you really want teh Crypt main so that you can easily get it with E tutor. This forced us to consider adding an additional Crypt to the board. Now the plan is bring in the 1 Crypt, 1 Relic, and 2 surgical and leave the 1 Crypt in the board. This has worked ok I think. Of note we are basically not doing this to address BR Reanimator. Jack and I are of teh mind that we are just so bad there that giving up space to fight it better isnt worth it at this time. You can beat it with the current list, it is just unfavorable. I would not add the Macabra in place of a Surgical. While the both are turn zero plays the big thing Surgical does is allow you to remove shit like FoW or STP from the game whihc can be back breaking against Miracles, Stoneblade, and other decks.

@Relic- It is generally just a good value spell. Yes Crypt is faster, but relic has more utility. Many times you just need to grind out a position in a game. Relic allows for this. It exiles your yard and itself to make Karn loops a real thing. It replaces itself which actually allows you te get ahead of your opponent while disrupting them. So while it isnt the fastest or most elegant solution to graveyards, it has really nice utility with the way we have built the deck. Just for its ability to exile our yard and itself is worth playing as it creates a round about way for Karn to get Painter. Hopefully this helps and clears ups why it is really a spell you need to have access to.

Seth
If you need a second grave hate during the same game, we have also Goblin Engineer to increase the possibility to do so, after the first Tormod's Crypt.

[sroncor1]

@ Alex- I can not tell if you are just trolling with that comment or trying to share an insight. The need to get a second grave yard interaction wasn't any part of the reason why the card should be in the board. It does help that Karn by himself can destroy graveyards without the need of Welder effects, but that was not what I was talking with Karn loops. By using Relic you can exile all your already used artifacts, this allows for added utility with Karn which helps to get Painters, Bridges, and Ballistas back from the yard for either the times you don't have a welder or bc welder doesn't work the cards (Ballista). You are free to run whatever cards in the board that you want, I mearly shared my list and tried to give my reasons.

Seth

[Alex_UNLIMITED]

@ Alex- I can not tell if you are just trolling with that comment or trying to share an insight. The need to get a second grave yard interaction wasn't any part of the reason why the card should be in the board. It does help that Karn by himself can destroy graveyards without the need of Welder effects, but that was not what I was talking with Karn loops. By using Relic you can exile all your already used artifacts, this allows for added utility with Karn which helps to get Painters, Bridges, and Ballistas back from the yard for either the times you don't have a welder or bc welder doesn't work the cards (Ballista). You are free to run whatever cards in the board that you want, I mearly shared my list and tried to give my reasons.

Seth
I was serious, but I think that the approach of using so much times the second ability of Karn, the Great Creator is too slow to make Relic of Progenitus whorty of a spot in the sideboard. I think that a turn 1 tutorable Faerie Macare helps with some bad match-ups, but it depends on metagames.
Grafidgger's Cage is just terrible with Goblin Welder and Goblin Engineer.

[drude1]

I was serious, but I think that the approach of using so much times the second ability of Karn, the Great Creator is too slow to make Relic of Progenitus whorty of a spot in the sideboard. I think that a turn 1 tutorable Faerie Macare helps with some bad match-ups, but it depends on metagames.
Grafidgger's Cage is just terrible with Goblin Welder and Goblin Engineer.Are you taking about playing a turn 1 recruiter too get macabre? Because that's a corner case at best. You are basically taking about a 3 cards combo turn 1 to remove two cards from the graveyard. Not impossible but probably not more likely than just tutoring for relic to use on turn 2. Cage isn't that terrible as you can just weeks or the cage if you need a creature from the yard. I would assume the creature would be a painter to just win but sometimes it can be awkward.

[Alex_UNLIMITED]

Are you taking about playing a turn 1 recruiter too get macabre? Because that's a corner case at best. You are basically taking about a 3 cards combo turn 1 to remove two cards from the graveyard. Not impossible but probably not more likely than just tutoring for relic to use on turn 2.
Maybe it's little less a corner case with the new mulligan rule, and you can anyway tutor a Faerie Macabre on turn 2. I think that Faerie Macabre is a very good card to evaluate in a deck that can make a recruiter on turn 1 or 2, furthermore sometimes is unexpected and nearly impossibile to counter.



Cage isn't that terrible as you can just weeks or the cage if you need a creature from the yard. I would assume the creature would be a painter to just win but sometimes it can be awkward.
Grafdigger's Cage is more synergistic with Goblin Engineer, because it requires to sacrifice an artifact before the switch, but a card like that sounds more like a metagame choice than a "stable" sideboard card.



Cratermaker is still there Bc he has upside. He still kills things on demand, can remove troublesome artifacts and serves as an answer to opposing Karn. We initially tried to cut him but in the end that utility was just something we need.
Regarding Goblin Cratermaker, with Painter's Servant on the board, it can't destroy opponent's Karn, artifacts or Eldrazi. Yes, it can destroy an annoying creature, so most likely I will continue to test it, but seems that hasn't a good synergy with the deck, like Grafidgger's Cage.

[sroncor1]

@Cratermaker- Yes I understand that he doesnt work as well with Painter on the table but that is ok. His ability to kill colorless things is very helpful. With the increase in Welders in the deck you can also work to control if Painter is on the table. It isnt perfect, but its good enough I think and likely the most versitile options we have.

@ Faerie Macabre- Maybe getting to tutor it on turn two is ok, but BR reanimator is usually too fast and can easily reset especially when you see all the resources you use to do that. It also has little to no effect on Show and Tell and Dredge, not to mention little to no value against Snapcaster lists. I dont think you should waste time and space with the card.

@Relic- I am still not understanding what your question about the card is. We are not using it as a Karn target against graveyard decks. You would tutor it against Miracles, Lands, and Grixis game one in some situations. Against decks like Dredge, Reanimator, and opps no lands you would board it in as its viable to play turn one. In those situations, you leave one of the Crypts in the board to allow for speedy interaction and maximum utility with our tutors.

Seth

[Jungian Thing]

Hey guys,

With the new cards and the rejuvenation of the deck, I am back. The SDT ban coincided with my divorce and the years of instability that ensue, being a single dad (and now primary carer) grinding out games at the LGS was not something I could do and not feel selfish. And now the new cards are out and I am stable again and hitting the LGS is an option my partner is happy to indulge, better than going out for drinks with the boys!!!

So, firstly, I want to thank you guys for keeping it alive. Truly watching the deck's tribulations over the last few years looked tough. It gave me an out when I did get time to talk to my old legacy friends but I felt for you guys seeing the deck I had grown to love fall so hard.

I am now assembling the cards for the deck, which is a little harder than normal as the deck is a painter tribute with all cards unique, signed, miscut, altered etc. I have posted it before but picking up new cards has always been tough. But they are on their way from around the world and I can't wait!!! I am fish bowling with proxies ftm.

Any tips you guys have for getting back into it would be great. It seems that whilst the deck was complex before, it is levelling up and having only played edh since SDT, I am kind of worried about getting up to legacy standard and not making some common misplays... My last result (https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=13386&d=278499&f=LE) was a good one and that was the last time I played. Hoping to get back into things and not make a complete fool of myself.

Looking forward to contribute where I can and participating in the community again.

[Kap'n Cook]

Good to see you back homie. The deck is probably even more powerful than before so I'm sure you'll love the new lists. Biggest tip is just start jamming games.

Your signed welder also continues to put in work. Got me the match winning weld against grixis in the starcity top 8.

[Jungian Thing]

Hey Jack,

Thanks for the advice, and love how the new list is shaping up. Are you twitching?

Good to hear the welder is doing well! One of my proudest geek moments is seeing it hit the table against Dan Musser, not something you brag to your tinder date about though!!! :laugh:

I still have that signed grindstone (not in silver :frown:) if you want it. Let me know and I'll post it to you.

[Megadeus]

New fixed lotus value good enough? It's a nonbo with blood moon though, but it's great with blood sun

[pettdan]

New fixed lotus value good enough? It's a nonbo with blood moon though, but it's great with blood sun


I don't think this deck can utilize it well, being currently very light on moon effects, it would be better like you say in a blood sun-centered deck. I think Imperial painter would be closer to running blood suns. It actually may be worth testing the card again, in some unknown deck that wants it, since basic land heavy decks have gained popularity and blood sun actually messes with them.

A disadvantage of the land is that it requires two other lands in play, if you've been wastelanded or just have a land-light starting hand that can be difficult. Cip tapped is too slow. It's pretty nice that it allows you to cash in a city of traitors that'd be sacrificed to itself otherwise and city also synergizes with blood sun.. Maybe there's enough to play with that..

[drude1]

BEHOLD!!! THE POWER OF TANGLE WIRE!!! :)

https://youtu.be/5ezCFzdF-CY

[Jungian Thing]

BEHOLD!!! THE POWER OF TANGLE WIRE!!! :)

https://youtu.be/5ezCFzdF-CY

Lol! Beheld!!!!

Was a pretty nuts draw but must have hurt to be on the other side of it. Welder is so underestimated by opponents.

[Michael Keller]

I snagged one for funsies. Tangle Wire in an Engineer/Welder shell seems fun.

[Michael Keller]

Went 3-0 in an 8-man tonight with Engineer/Welder.

2-0: vs. Burn
2-0: vs. Lands
2-1: vs. RUG Delver

Pretty standard stuff - four Karn, LED was awesome, still locked in to Coating (awesome with Engineer - made City an artifact with the sacrifice trigger on the stack and sacrificed it to Engineer).

LED was good, I ran one.

[schweinefettmann]

Went 3-0 in an 8-man tonight with Engineer/Welder.

2-0: vs. Burn
2-0: vs. Lands
2-1: vs. RUG Delver

Pretty standard stuff - four Karn, LED was awesome, still locked in to Coating (awesome with Engineer - made City an artifact with the sacrifice trigger on the stack and sacrificed it to Engineer).

LED was good, I ran one.

What was your actual list? I’m trying to find space for the led, engineers, karns, and coatings. So far, I have 2 coatings main, but I’m on 62 cards. Dunno what to cut. I’m edging on going down to 1 canonist, but no idea what else to cut.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Megadeus]

Played actual shortcake and not imperial painter at our local quarterly big team event. Went 3-2 with pretty much Capn Cooks updated list from his report.

Lost to UR Delver
Beat UW Stoneblade
Beat UW Stoneblade
Lost to Maverick
Beat Grixis Control

First time playing actual shortcake and I don't think I love it personally after 5 games (obviously small sample size). The one time I cast my one blood moon it was really good. ETutor was fine nothing special for me.
Welder over performed. Seriously debating a 4th if I play shortcake again.
Engineer was fine. I don't think I ever actually activated it, but there were times when it threatened to win the game if I had just drawn another artifact.
I don't think I cast a Karn all day. Just never drew them and when I did I already had combo assembled.
Canonist was generally alright. I see the appeal.
After a while 5 rounds of playing my first thought is that maybe we have too many Tutors? Like I said, Everytime I drew Karn I already was doing what I needed to be doing. I think for now I'm personally going back to imperial since with recruiter, engineer, and Karn I think there's enough there. Canonist really helped against Grixis though. Hell of a fun deck though Jack. People were flocking to see what was going on and my teammates couldn't help me because they no idea what I was doing

[oliverpool]

I have just started picking this up after a year. The deck is now so much more
Complicated to play. It’s almost like there is so many options that it is way easier to make the wrong choices!

Between recruiter, tutor, Karn, welder and engineer and copter, it’s very easy to lose sight of what you should be doing at any one turn. 50% of the time I feel like I actually made the wrong choice. Really need to jam a lot of
Games to be up to date with this new version. Hopefully the updated primer will be up soon.

I be playing in two small tournaments over the next Teo days. Wish me luck.

I feel that I still like Wurmcoil in the sideboard as that at many stage of the games I have jam, seems to be the fastest way to win.

[drude1]

Went 4-0 at my LGS tonight with the deck. Beat U/B reanimator, bomberman, Grixis control, and Lazav-naught. Karn was amazing all night and just destroyed both the lazav and bomberman match-ups. I actually beat reanimator similarly to the youtube video I posted by dropping turn 1 welder into turn 2 engineer for tangle wire. Was able to generally stall long enough to assemble the win. The 1 of blood moon totally stole a game off of grixis. I am actually also currently 3-0 in my first league with the list as well. I had a turn 1 karn into turn 2 lattice in my last match online (ancient tomb, petal, petal, LED, mountain, karn, recruiter as my opener on the play). Prior to that game though I hadn't won any of the previous games with lattice and was even considering cutting it. It's just hard to do when there is such potential for that kind of craziness. This deck has never felt stronger and it is SOOOO under-estimated right now.

[oliverpool]

Went 4-0 at my LGS tonight with the deck. Beat U/B reanimator, bomberman, Grixis control, and Lazav-naught. Karn was amazing all night and just destroyed both the lazav and bomberman match-ups. I actually beat reanimator similarly to the youtube video I posted by dropping turn 1 welder into turn 2 engineer for tangle wire. Was able to generally stall long enough to assemble the win. The 1 of blood moon totally stole a game off of grixis. I am actually also currently 3-0 in my first league with the list as well. I had a turn 1 karn into turn 2 lattice in my last match online (ancient tomb, petal, petal, LED, mountain, karn, recruiter as my opener on the play). Prior to that game though I hadn't won any of the previous games with lattice and was even considering cutting it. It's just hard to do when there is such potential for that kind of craziness. This deck has never felt stronger and it is SOOOO under-estimated right now.

Congrats! I went 2-1 at my LGS earlier.

Was at 1-1 with a miracles and lost the dice roll for the third game without even playing. Lost the close first game which took half our time. Won the 2nd game with a lattice lock. Lost the dice throw so 1-2

Won the mirror(what’s the odds?). Basically it came down to who got Karn down first. A slightly different lost then ours with no LED and 4 urza rage instead of 4 bolts. I was a little surprise that my servant got “raged” with me holding a pyro. 2-1

Won vs Grixis control 2 closely fought match to zero.

Many times I really could not confirm what’s the best card to fetch with Karn. Again it felt that I would have won earlier with Karn if I had lotus or Wurmcoil in the sideboard. Or not lost those close games.

[Mirrislegend]

Congrats! I went 2-1 at my LGS earlier.

Was at 1-1 with a miracles and lost the dice roll for the third game without even playing. Lost the close first game which took half our time. Won the 2nd game with a lattice lock. Lost the dice throw so 1-2

So instead of a draw, the win goes to whoever won the dice roll? That's ATROCIOUS. I have never heard of that. Where on earth are people such savages that you can't have a draw?

[Megadeus]

So instead of a draw, the win goes to whoever won the dice roll? That's ATROCIOUS. I have never heard of that. Where on earth are people such savages that you can't have a draw?

It's actually against the rules so I'm not really sure how this came to pass. If your opponent wants to resolve a draw with a die roll you should report that to a judge

[oliverpool]

So instead of a draw, the win goes to whoever won the dice roll? That's ATROCIOUS. I have never heard of that. Where on earth are people such savages that you can't have a draw?

I thought that was strange too. But I was told that was the rule before I signed up.

[Michael Keller]

I thought that was strange too. But I was told that was the rule before I signed up.

You may want to relay this to whomever that T.O. is that's running those events. Even if the events aren't sanctioned, it'll train newer players or existing players to use this method to determine the outcome of a match.

Which is close to the worst possible thing you can do at a Magic tournament.

[kombatkiwi]

I've played at stores where for small events the entry is $5 or so and the payout is like
0-1 Wins: 1 Pack
2 Wins: 2 Packs
3 Wins: 3 Packs

In this structure a draw is exactly equivalent to a loss, so in round 3 if you're 2-0 and play against an opponent who is also 2-0 and you go to time then the only sensible thing to do is die roll for the win because otherwise you're just letting the store keep a pack for free. Of course you can try to argue that instead of rolling a die, one player should concede based on who is ahead in the current game (and for such low stakes people are often agreeable to this), but there is sometimes some grey area based on interpreting the gamestate (or some people are just really stubborn) so this is not always a realistic option.

Yes it's technically against the rules to randomly determine the winner but it doesn't make any sense not to do it in this situation, so the fact that everybody does it is basically an open secret

[oliverpool]

I Guess this is exactly my position. As game
2 ended, we only had like 1 min left. So it would likely be impossible to determine who is ahead and we likely would not be able to even start game 3.

[drude1]

I Guess this is exactly my position. As game
2 ended, we only had like 1 min left. So it would likely be impossible to determine who is ahead and we likely would not be able to even start game 3.

The point is, don't do it at any real tourney or you will get disqualified. As such, probably not a good habit to get into anywhere.

On a different note, anyone see any spoiled cards they are excited about? I thought these were worth at least mentioning...

1. Fry (https://mythicspoiler.com/m20/cards/fry.html) - could see sideboard play as the uncounterability and 5 damage are both relevant. With painter on blue it can hit lots of things. Honestly though, don't know that I would play it over bolt at this point though.

2. Scuttlemut (https://mythicspoiler.com/m20/cards/scuttlemutt.html) - it feels like this card wants to go into painter. I just wish it said "permanent" instead of "creature". The thing I like about it is that it is a fetchable white source of mana with recruiter and turns on our blasts as creature kill. Definitely too cute though.

3. Bag of Holding (https://mythicspoiler.com/m20/cards/bagofholding.html) - if someone really didn't like copter but wanted a similar effect this is an option. It does not synergize well with the goblins but it does with Karn. It's also pure card advantage when you pop it. Not great but if you were wanting to play the deck with more bridges this isn't terrible.

4. Brought Back (https://mythicspoiler.com/m20/cards/broughtback.html) - this is the one that is most interesting to me. The double white is rough for this deck and you would likely have to change the mana base a little to accomidate this card. However, if you are into shenanigans (not the actual card) then this is kinda cool. Weld out some cards and then put them back into play with this card? Get Karn back? Protect your combo? These all seem good. Would maybe consider 1-2 copies in SB. Just really wish it was only 1 white mana.

Anything else?

[Megadeus]

Scuttlebutt is a reprint so it's obviously bad. Bag is cool but probably worse than Copter. Bright back is sweet since you can maybe figure out a way to abuse it with LED but it's probably not worth it

[pettdan]

Veil of Summer seems interesting for a Rg version. I was trying that a while ago and this would be an interesting addition. Not quite worth considering a splash from shortcake though.

https://mythicspoiler.com/m20/cards/veilofsummer.html

[drude1]

Veil of Summer is definitely a good card, just not in the right colors unfortunately.

So for anyone looking for some video content I recorded my most recent league and downloaded it to my youtube channel. Let me know what you think.

https://youtu.be/m6AkJC9wZBs

[Jungian Thing]

So, I hit my first tournament for almost 3 years pedalling the latest Jack list, as a good place to start. I was a little rusty but went 2-2 winning back my entry fee. I have to say while I did spot a couple of misplays, I am not at a level that I can analyse my play and see improvement - yet. Where I need help is mulligan (we played London) and sideboarding, the wishboard is strong but makes the choice that little more complex.

Matchups:
2-1, Mentor Echo Brew. Karn/Moon G1 got it. G2 (loss) 3 Eons and Narset (wtf?). G3 to time but Karn resolving caused a concession. Board out SSG, LP, ET, EC, in Bolts.

0-2, Karn Prison. G1 Turn 1 Challice at 1 followed by Karn and Liquimetal Coating - Ouch but wow! I concede. G2 Challice 1 and 2, Trinisphere Karn scion token. I play a moon. Dunno what I boarded but would like to know what I should...

1-2 Grixis Delver. G1 (loss) standard beat down, I have a bridge out that prolongs things but low lands (wasted) raises the bridge, I misplay a REB to Pyro raising the bridge for the alpha strike and GG. G2 He plays a Winter Orb seemingly forgetting its symmetrical and actual slows the game down nicely for me to pack a natural grind. G3 (loss) He early game surgically extracts my Painters and we head into the red zone with a gaggle of unlikely beaters. We are both on 6 I have a bolt in hand and three damage on him next turn when he double bolts me. I suspect I could have won this one if I was playing tighter but I am not sure. I board in bolts. What should I have boarded out though?

2-1 Czech Pile. G1 (loss) hand shred nothing to play. G2 Turn one moon gets immediate concession. G3 It's a slow game I get a natural grind after the third stone sticks. I only board in Needle.

Overall, I am happy with the result. I do miss the moon effects, especially with the greedy land bases I was up against. And those extra SSGs for monkey blasts will be missed. I have no idea what power Karn holds and I suspect I am going to be amazed. Watching him against me was great. Liquimetal coating was a beast, I am considering it instead of lattice but I can see that lattice is effectively a win if it sticks.

I'd like some general rules about mulliganing, I was looking for 1 red source, a second land or mana source, on curve with one or two lines to combo.

Sideboard, so many new lists... and walkers too. Do you wish or side?

[schweinefettmann]

I run 3/1 coating main/side in my mono red build. But I don’t see where you can find space in shortcake to be honest.

Nice tourney report! I think it’s important to find a decent karn-mirror answer. I suspect bolts aren’t good enough, and I’m not sure there is anything else that’d be effective and flexible enough


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[drude1]

I run 3/1 coating main/side in my mono red build. But I don’t see where you can find space in shortcake to be honest.

Nice tourney report! I think it’s important to find a decent karn-mirror answer. I suspect bolts aren’t good enough, and I’m not sure there is anything else that’d be effective and flexible enough


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Having played against Bomberman Karn several times I will say that the best card against other Karn decks is your own Karn. Again, it's one of the biggest reasons I play Karn as a 4 of (that, and that Karn just wins games). I am probably 90% against other Karn decks just because we do play painter + blasts and the bolts post SB. Most other Karn decks don't have a lot of non-artifact answers to our deck. So, if you play your own Karn then they can't use their liquimetal coating, or their ballistas to shoot things down. And against bomberman, the only thing they can really do is make a bunch of dudes with Mentor...at sorcery speed. You just have to know what cards in their deck are good against you. With the new mulligan rule, if I were playing against another Karn deck, I would likely mull to my own Karn or a really fast combo hand.

If you are looking for other sideboard cards to tackle Karn and other walkers in general I would consider Magmatic Sinkhole. I know we don't always have a huge graveyard to delve away but sinkhole does answer a lot of concerns. It pretty much kills every planeswalker, including both Jace and W6 after a plus, which bolt does NOT do (and that has been a little bit of a problem). It also kills big beaters like Gurmag and goyf (have other people noticed the big uptick in goyf online recently?). It might be worth at least splitting bolts with a couple of this card. Bolts usually though are good enough for opposing Karns because opponents usually tick down after casting it and that puts it in bolt range.

@Jungian Thing: First, I remember seeing you post a lot a long time ago. Good to see you back on here. Also, can I ask where your name comes from? As far as sideboarding against Grixis, if I were playing the standard list I would probably side out canonist, 1-2 fast mana and likely a recruiter (if you are playing 4x). Karn and resource restriction (eg moon..and tangle wire!) are highly valued in this MU as they have a lot of creature removal. I also think relic is a good side in in this match-up. You can control their graveyard to keep gurmag off the table and can make snapcaster and arcanist much worse. i'm wondering if black leyline is worth it now with london mull. You would still need a tormod's or something in the SB for karn so it takes up a lot of slots. But it is the one leyline that is really really good at what it does and turns off snapcaster, arcanist, gurmag, AK, and the obvious graveyard strategies.


Finally, on the more whimsical side of things, I've been impressed with some of the new lists playing snow lands and astrolabe so I put together a painter version of this. The cool thing is that you can play more basics and be much more resilient against wastelands. W6 + wasteland lock is getting more popular these days. Playing a plains in the main is also not as much of a concern as the astrolabe can turn it into a red mana. The astrolabes are also good wlder fodder (playing 4 welder and 3 engineer) and you can weld astrolabes in and out to generate card advantage. In my deck where I am playing tangle wire, they also offer other non-essential permanents to tap down on my turn. The biggest downside though is that, with all the sol lands we play, we don't always have access to snow mana and they can sometimes get stuck in your hand. They also compete with a lot of other turn 1 plays so it's sometimes a little more work to sequence properly. For anyone interested, this was the list I was trying:

4 x tomb
3 x city
5 x snow-covered mountain
1 x snow-covered plains
4 x Arid Mesa
1 x Scalding Tarn (would play a Prismatic Vista here if I owned one)
1 x Plateau
1 x Great Furnace

4 x welder
3 x engineer
3 x painter
3 x Recruiter
1 x canonist
1 x copter

4 x petal
3 x astrolabe
3 x grindstone
4 x pyroblast
1 x LED
3 x e.tutor
3 x Tangle Wire (could also see a 2 tangle wire/1 blood moon split)
1 x bridge
3 x Karn (only 3 karn in this list as mana is commonly a little more restricted with tangle wires and you are drawing more cards to find him)

SB
2 x surgical
3 x bolt
typical wish package

Again, this is mostly for funsies but it has some really cool interactions. 2-0 so far in matches. Here's the 2nd match I've played: https://youtu.be/T6plivIHS9w

Sorry for the bad audio. I was in a coffee shop.

p.s. now that London mulligan is in full effect, I'm seeing a lot more leylines. I know it's not back breaking but it definitely makes our goblins a lot worse. Is dispeller's capsule worth a slot in the SB?

[Jungian Thing]

@Jungian Thing: First, I remember seeing you post a lot a long time ago. Good to see you back on here. Also, can I ask where your name comes from? As far as sideboarding against Grixis, if I were playing the standard list I would probably side out canonist, 1-2 fast mana and likely a recruiter (if you are playing 4x). Karn and resource restriction (eg moon..and tangle wire!) are highly valued in this MU as they have a lot of creature removal. I also think relic is a good side in in this match-up. You can control their graveyard to keep gurmag off the table and can make snapcaster and arcanist much worse. i'm wondering if black leyline is worth it now with london mull. You would still need a tormod's or something in the SB for karn so it takes up a lot of slots. But it is the one leyline that is really really good at what it does and turns off snapcaster, arcanist, gurmag, AK, and the obvious graveyard strategies.

Hey Drude, I was posting awhile ago. Life got in the way and magic took a back seat with some casual edh but little else. I started as a DnT player, moved to infect and lastly hit Shortcake Painter where I plan to stay (can't wait to show my bling deck once all the cards arrive!).

Jungian Thing?

This (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KMEViYvojtY). The what? ~NSFW - I guess...

Thanks for the sideboard advice. As I said, I'm a little rusty but what you say makes perfect sense. I like the leyline idea. I have been dreaming about [[serum powder]] as a one of. You have an 90% chance of hitting it if you mull to 0. Makes looking through your starting hands easier, I know it's jank but I like jank and it has seen legacy play.

I watched your video and [[astrolabe]] did some good work for you. There were some really smooth plays by you with the welder; the STP response, and the SoFaI play were both really sweet! Sure the opponent made some naive plays but you smashed them for it. You had a real opportunity to explain what and why more in the audio. I know the sound wasn't the best but you are a strong player, don't take for granted that me and other watchers are nowhere near as strong as you and are watching to learn and improve. Not a complaint just a suggestion. Keep on posting them, they are valuable. I watch them. Thank you.

[Jungian Thing]

I run 3/1 coating main/side in my mono red build. But I don’t see where you can find space in shortcake to be honest.

Nice tourney report! I think it’s important to find a decent karn-mirror answer. I suspect bolts aren’t good enough, and I’m not sure there is anything else that’d be effective and flexible enough


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Thank you. Karn is a house. Really looking forward to seeing how the gravity well he is is warping the meta. Good time to get back into things when everyone else is saying wtf?

[Alex_UNLIMITED]

Guys, how do you feel the match-up against UR Delver? It seems terrible. Dreadhorde Arcanist is a very broken card, I think that even 4 Lightning Bolt in the sideboard aren't enough.

[Megadeus]

Guys, how do you feel the match-up against UR Delver? It seems terrible. Dreadhorde Arcanist is a very broken card, I think that even 4 Lightning Bolt in the sideboard aren't enough.

I've only played it once and it rolled me

[Michael Keller]

One of the most unsung cards in this MU is Simian Spirit Guide. Dodging Daze unexpectedly can be a blowout. The problem is the UR player will play around extra mana like Petal because it’s visible.

[tired_papasmurf]

Guys, how do you feel the match-up against UR Delver? It seems terrible. Dreadhorde Arcanist is a very broken card, I think that even 4 Lightning Bolt in the sideboard aren't enough.

Burn has always been a terrible matchup, and UR Delver is just Burn ft. Force and Cantrips. With Arcanist, it's way more consistent and quicker, especially considering none of our creatures threaten to kill it with a block.

Personally, I'll just list the matchup as I always have: hope to dodge or have the nuts

[Megadeus]

I feel like my biggest struggle with this deck right now is timing the tutors and then also figuring out what to get. Anyone have any advice? How aggressive does everyone get with their ETutor?

[Michael Keller]

So, about the price of Painter’s Servant and Grindstone...

[colo]

I was tempted to ask in here what's going on with that, too. Is it connected to the price inflation of Storage Matrix in any way?

[pettdan]

No, Painter was unbanned in EDH yesterday, I believe, I have a vague understanding of those non-competitive formats.

[Darklingske]

yeah, what's happening? Trend on MKM is 5€ for Painter, but starting @ 15€... Very strange!

[Darklingske]

No, Painter was unbanned in EDH yesterday, I believe, I have a vague understanding of those non-competitive formats.

Oh, that explains it!

[Megadeus]

Hopefully everyone in here already owns their deck. Korean Grindstones are about to be painful for me to get

[schweinefettmann]

Yea sorry guys; I’ve been hammering on about it to the folks at EDH about Painter being really tame for possibly up to years now.

Might get a reprint in some commander set in the future though, full of completely busted colour-hosing funness!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Lava Snacks]

casual scum

[alvoi]

Hopefully everyone in here already owns their deck. Korean Grindstones are about to be painful for me to get

I was planning to build Shortcake as my next legacy deck, and one month ago I decided not to buy a playset of painters because "there is time and these will always be at 3€"... I'm stupid

[Jungian Thing]

I was planning to build Shortcake as my next legacy deck, and one month ago I decided not to buy a playset of painters because "there is time and these will always be at 3€"... I'm stupid

Nah, you couldn't have known. Still not a bad price. The question is, is this just a spike driven off speculation following the announcement or a full correction?

I think Grindstone will go back down. It is against most EDH players ethos. It will hit games for the next few weeks and people will start to complain about it being unfun. That said, packing a grindstone with no painter could be good anti-painter hate...

Painter on the other hand, adds a new dimension that I think will have longevity. Old school colour hate cards will probably have a secondary price impact.

What is interesting is that it introduces players to the combo and that may drive them to painter legacy. Plenty of edh players had no idea about the card until yesterday.

[Michael Keller]

Grindstone is also from a set with a much smaller print run.

[Jungian Thing]

Wow, the masterpieces are selling out everywhere. I was hoping to snag some signed masterpieces at some point.

Shadowmoor Painter stock is down 85% and OG grindstone 55% on Cardmarket.

[Daize]

went 1-3 in the local... Lost 2x against RU arcanist delver and 1x against ad nauseum storm. Beat esper control. All matches were 3 games..

I feel I get low on mana a lot with my playstyle or with 19 lands. I tried 2 blood moon, 1 canonist and 3 Karn, but obviously it wasn't the day for blood moon (besides stealing a game Vs esper). I wanted to see Karn more, but also feel like I wouldn't have the mana for it. Also the reason engineer isn't working out for me: awkward mana. Maybe it's my metagame.

I still want to give engineer a chance, maybe as a 1 of instead. Cratermaker is still boss. Ethersworn canonist is still great, and often I doubt between getting canonist vs blue or painter (and hope that I draw a grindstone). Tried trinisphere against RU arcanist but it's too slow and I get beat up meanwhile. The bolts are amazing but not enough. I'm a bit on the fence about copter in this matchup tbf. Best bet seems quick combo playing around daze with counter backup.

Storm seems really difficult without canonist in multiples .. (played 4 games Vs storm).

Any thoughts?

[Spigore]

I feel like my biggest struggle with this deck right now is timing the tutors and then also figuring out what to get. Anyone have any advice? How aggressive does everyone get with their ETutor?

Hi Megadeus,

I've just moved into Shortcake since last week and have been jamming a lot of games past weekend with the local playgroup.
Seems luck was on my side when getting the missing Servants pre-unban. :)
Imperial Painter / Shortcake always has been a deck which I would like to play. Finally decided to buy in the white bordered P3K Recruiters. #noregrets
I'm on Jack's "newest tier 0" presented in the Source Wars Episode I. (Thanks for the read Jack) :)

New to the deck but not new to the format, I have end of turn tutored a bunch for Great Furnace to get my Turn 2/3 land drop secure.
It might be wrong to keep a spicy opening hand which has E.Tutor but is light on lands. But if the spicy hand only needs to secure landdrops, I don't see the problem in tutoring for Furnace.
Do the experienced players tutor for Furnace when there is no early Copter to secure landdrops? I guess it's kind of dependant on the boardstate and situation.

Could be wrong on this one, but tutoring an early game Copter is pretty nice. I think this is a decent play if it's undecided if you go for the combo or for the beatdown.
I was sceptical about Copter at first, but the hand fixing is very much needed.

Being able to tutor the obvious bullets (Bridge, Moon, Canonist) is sweet when the game moves forward.
This even gets better postboard where Karn can be too slow to get your Relic of Progenitus, Needle or Crypt in specific match-ups.


On an other topic. Correct me if this is a clunky play, but when you have a Painter in play, I have cast a Recruiter, getting Engineer, getting Grindstone a few times.
Can anyone confirm this is basically the idea of how to work the Recruiter and Engineer?

I'm also pretty curious on Hollywood's latest list with the Shamans and Coatings. Are you still on this list?

P.S.: The white-bordered P3K mountains are looking way too sweet!

[Daize]

I've always found it punishing to keep a greedy 1 land hand. E tutor for furnace shouldn't be your first play, but outside of that it isn't necessarily a bad play always.

Recruiter for engineer for grindstone is also not a bad line, depends on the state of play. you're developing your board while meanwhile getting closer to your main kill line.

[Kap'n Cook]

I feel like my biggest struggle with this deck right now is timing the tutors and then also figuring out what to get. Anyone have any advice? How aggressive does everyone get with their ETutor?


Bit of a strange question, by that I mean e-tutor lets you to be as slow or as aggressive as you want. Think of it more as a tool that at the cost of a card, it gives you a commanding (or game-winning) board position the next turn. What that target is will of course depend on everything. The speed and flexibility vs. long term advantage trade-off is definitely worth it, but sometimes you'll just have to hold it and wait a turn to see if you get a better end step window from your opponent.

[schweinefettmann]

That’s the whole point of recruiter. It gets all the stuff that makes your deck run, and improves card quality as the game goes.
It’s one of the best cards in the deck actually. Recruiter for magus is becoming one of the best lines of the deck recently.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Elpresidente]

Any news on the updated primer? I've been having a blast with Kitchen's list, and I'd like to see some more general tips on what I should be doing with the deck

[Jungian Thing]

Any news on the updated primer? I've been having a blast with Kitchen's list, and I'd like to see some more general tips on what I should be doing with the deck

I think you’ll find the deck and, even, a good proportion of the meta are in a tumultuous period of adjustment. A primer, right now, would be both out of date quickly but also based too small a sample size. There are a number of lists floating around that are posting results. Just look at Drudes list.

[drude1]

@Spigore: A: it's totally fine to get the furnace with an e.tutor if that's what you need. Having said that, I also don't think it's wrong to go up a land in this deck. The deck is a little more mana hungry with Karn these days. B: Yes, you can definitely recruiter for engineer for grindstone. I've done that many times, particularly if I have a couple welders/engineers on the table then I can grindstone myself to put other essential cards (eg painter) into the yard and weld them back. Engineer can basically be used to go get whatever you need.

On that note, check out this fun little ditty. Living the dream with new Triskelion tech against Maverick. I won game 1 and sided in my 1 x Trisk for game 2. Enjoy...

https://youtu.be/ZyQk9Qn4YR4

@schweinefettmann: I know I already said this on the discord, but I think Magus is actually pretty terrible right now. There is so much red in the format because everyone wants to play W6 and/or pyroblasts, so lightning bolt and punishing fire is everywhere online. Even eldrazi are packing balistas these days and every other deck has a bunch of basics. Given that U/R delver is probably the most popular deck right now, Magus just isn't going to cut it. It's probably okay against BUG lists, and maybe elves and infect if you get him down fast enough. I would much rather play a second blood moon.

Nice to see the value of our deck jump in price so much. Maybe it's time to sell my regular playsets of painter and grindstone and just hold on to the invocations....or vice versa.

[Jungian Thing]

Cool video! Triskelion is awesome tech with the etb, nice old school card. And best art Antiquities. I used to play it in a type 1.5, Enduring Renewal deck, it was a bomb!

[Spigore]

@Spigore: A: it's totally fine to get the furnace with an e.tutor if that's what you need. Having said that, I also don't think it's wrong to go up a land in this deck. The deck is a little more mana hungry with Karn these days. B: Yes, you can definitely recruiter for engineer for grindstone. I've done that many times, particularly if I have a couple welders/engineers on the table then I can grindstone myself to put other essential cards (eg painter) into the yard and weld them back. Engineer can basically be used to go get whatever you need.

On that note, check out this fun little ditty. Living the dream with new Triskelion tech against Maverick. I won game 1 and sided in my 1 x Trisk for game 2. Enjoy...

https://youtu.be/ZyQk9Qn4YR4


Thank you for the feedback! Appreciated.
The deck really has some major decision trees with Karn, Tutor and Engineer now all being present. Deciding which line is the most optimal can be difficult, but I like it.
It will take me some practise and evaluation with the deck to get my play on par!

That's some entertaining play indeed.
I assume Ballista is favored over good old Triskelion in most situations, but the Ballista can't be weldered back in play. Did you guys experience this as a downside to Ballista?

@Jungian; Enduring Renewal... oh la la! :)

[sroncor1]

@ the primer- I have been working on it, but life, work and interviewing for work has slowed me down considerably at this point. Also I have been playing more Old School as I often do. It isnt about the changing meta or small sample size me from getting it done, just life. In general Jack and I feel that the list is basically complete. Likely 4-5 cards in the board (thinking bolt here) and one maindeck card may change if the meta makes some serious moves, but otherwise the deck is sort of well tuned at this point. Likewise match up analysis is basically complete at this time as most deck will likely not drastically change even if a few pieces in them adapt to the evolving meta.

One interesting note is that the sideboarding has become more streamlined these days which might actually make a sideboard guide a thing that can be done. In the past there were so many choices, but now with the Karn package and simplying options to four bolts, I actually find myself making simple changes and likely keeping it for both games 2 and 3. This change makes it much easier to communicate the complexity of boarding. However I have always sort of hesitated making one as there are so many variations and subtle things when playing.

My thoughts for the primer would be as follows
1. General Update to deck design following introduction of Karn, not really Engineer as aI am still not convinced he fundamentally altered teh deck as much as become an incredible useful resource.
2. Next steps for testing and shit.
3. Overall match up, with general approaches and key things to consider to include lines of attack and some key considerations in the match up.
4. Simple board plan layout for top decks or likely decks to face.

Is there anything else I am missing or that would be helpful?

Seth

[Mirrislegend]

My thoughts for the primer would be as follows
1. General Update to deck design following introduction of Karn, not really Engineer as aI am still not convinced he fundamentally altered teh deck as much as become an incredible useful resource.
2. Next steps for testing and shit.
3. Overall match up, with general approaches and key things to consider to include lines of attack and some key considerations in the match up.
4. Simple board plan layout for top decks or likely decks to face.

Is there anything else I am missing or that would be helpful?

Seth

That sounds very helpful! Thank you so much!

[J_K_F]

@ the primer- I have been working on it, but life, work and interviewing for work has slowed me down considerably at this point. Also I have been playing more Old School as I often do. It isnt about the changing meta or small sample size me from getting it done, just life. In general Jack and I feel that the list is basically complete. Likely 4-5 cards in the board (thinking bolt here) and one maindeck card may change if the meta makes some serious moves, but otherwise the deck is sort of well tuned at this point. Likewise match up analysis is basically complete at this time as most deck will likely not drastically change even if a few pieces in them adapt to the evolving meta.

One interesting note is that the sideboarding has become more streamlined these days which might actually make a sideboard guide a thing that can be done. In the past there were so many choices, but now with the Karn package and simplying options to four bolts, I actually find myself making simple changes and likely keeping it for both games 2 and 3. This change makes it much easier to communicate the complexity of boarding. However I have always sort of hesitated making one as there are so many variations and subtle things when playing.

My thoughts for the primer would be as follows
1. General Update to deck design following introduction of Karn, not really Engineer as aI am still not convinced he fundamentally altered teh deck as much as become an incredible useful resource.
2. Next steps for testing and shit.
3. Overall match up, with general approaches and key things to consider to include lines of attack and some key considerations in the match up.
4. Simple board plan layout for top decks or likely decks to face.

Is there anything else I am missing or that would be helpful?

Seth

Looking forward to this once you have the time to complete it! Been having a blast (hohoho) with the new list, and appreciate the work you, Jack, and others have put into it. Really can't fault anyone for playing more oldschool, it's a format I really enjoy as well.

[peko]

Hi all

Long time lurker here - my love for the deck has motivated me to make an account here (no other deck made me want to post on the Source for the several years I have been playing legacy :smile:).
I have been playing the deck for a few months now (most recently the post-Modern Horizons standard iteration) and I wanted to ask everyone's thoughts on a few points that have been on my mind lately.

(1) Is is time to up the number of Blood Moons again? In the past few days I have been seeing so much Wrenn and Six (Canadian Threshold, Czech Pile, Lands, Punishing Dack) on MTGO and wished several times I had more of those.

(2) I have been playing 19 lands and mulliganing a little more than I like due to one-landers. I wonder if the majority of people is at 19 or 20.

(3) I have been thinking about replacing one City of Traitors with Crystal Veins. I feel like turbo-wins (which are heavily dependent on the mana boost from Sol lands) are an exception rather than the rule, and more often than not I seeclumsy hands with multiple City of Traitors. Crystal Veins does not feel as all-in as City of Traitors, while still keeping the ability to boost us if we are in a turbo-scenario.

(4) I have been very unimpressed with Walking Ballista. It used to be in my maindeck but I was never happy to see it. I have a copy now in the sideboard, but in the 50 or so games that I have under my belt post-Modern Horizons, I did not bring it with Karn a single time (the only time I wanted a removal effect was to get rid of a Collector Ouphe :rolleyes:). I wonder if Engineered Explosives would be better in this slot.

(5) The four Lightning Bolts have been great but I occasionally find myself missing a Pyroclasm and have been thinking of returning one to the board.

(6) I have been toying with the idea of swapping my graveyard hate for 4 x Leyline of the Void - I feel it shuts off Reanimator much more reliably than Surgical Extraction, while also being good against Punishing Fire and Wrenn and Six. Obviously Leylines are terrible draws, but maybe Smuggler's Copter could mitigate a bit. Also Leyline has the added benefit of offering us another wincon in Helm of Obedience - this could perhaps give us some extra wins against burn (which I consider by far our worst matchup). I believe Helm was briefly used in the past but I have not seen it recently.

Any thoughts will be greatly appreciated! Keep painting :cool:

[Mirrislegend]

Hi all

Long time lurker here - my love for the deck has motivated me to make an account here (no other deck made me want to post on the Source for the several years I have been playing legacy :smile:).
I have been playing the deck for a few months now (most recently the post-Modern Horizons standard iteration) and I wanted to ask everyone's thoughts on a few points that have been on my mind lately.

(1) Is is time to up the number of Blood Moons again? In the past few days I have been seeing so much Wrenn and Six (Canadian Threshold, Czech Pile, Lands, Punishing Dack) on MTGO and wished several times I had more of those.

(2) I have been playing 19 lands and mulliganing a little more than I like due to one-landers. I wonder if the majority of people is at 19 or 20.

(3) I have been thinking about replacing one City of Traitors with Crystal Veins. I feel like turbo-wins (which are heavily dependent on the mana boost from Sol lands) are an exception rather than the rule, and more often than not I seeclumsy hands with multiple City of Traitors. Crystal Veins does not feel as all-in as City of Traitors, while still keeping the ability to boost us if we are in a turbo-scenario.

(4) I have been very unimpressed with Walking Ballista. It used to be in my maindeck but I was never happy to see it. I have a copy now in the sideboard, but in the 50 or so games that I have under my belt post-Modern Horizons, I did not bring it with Karn a single time (the only time I wanted a removal effect was to get rid of a Collector Ouphe :rolleyes:). I wonder if Engineered Explosives would be better in this slot.

(5) The four Lightning Bolts have been great but I occasionally find myself missing a Pyroclasm and have been thinking of returning one to the board.

(6) I have been toying with the idea of swapping my graveyard hate for 4 x Leyline of the Void - I feel it shuts off Reanimator much more reliably than Surgical Extraction, while also being good against Punishing Fire and Wrenn and Six. Obviously Leylines are terrible draws, but maybe Smuggler's Copter could mitigate a bit. Also Leyline has the added benefit of offering us another wincon in Helm of Obedience - this could perhaps give us some extra wins against burn (which I consider by far our worst matchup). I believe Helm was briefly used in the past but I have not seen it recently.

Any thoughts will be greatly appreciated! Keep painting :cool:

I'm also unimpressed by Walking Ballista. The only use I've found is to plus Karn on an opponent's Pithing Needle then shoot it with Ballista. I wonder if its just there for certain matchups? Not wishing for it but actually playing it against Young Pyro, Elves, Goblins may be effective.

[drude1]

Hi all

Long time lurker here - my love for the deck has motivated me to make an account here (no other deck made me want to post on the Source for the several years I have been playing legacy [emoji2]).
I have been playing the deck for a few months now (most recently the post-Modern Horizons standard iteration) and I wanted to ask everyone's thoughts on a few points that have been on my mind lately.

(1) Is is time to up the number of Blood Moons again? In the past few days I have been seeing so much Wrenn and Six (Canadian Threshold, Czech Pile, Lands, Punishing Dack) on MTGO and wished several times I had more of those.

(2) I have been playing 19 lands and mulliganing a little more than I like due to one-landers. I wonder if the majority of people is at 19 or 20.

(3) I have been thinking about replacing one City of Traitors with Crystal Veins. I feel like turbo-wins (which are heavily dependent on the mana boost from Sol lands) are an exception rather than the rule, and more often than not I seeclumsy hands with multiple City of Traitors. Crystal Veins does not feel as all-in as City of Traitors, while still keeping the ability to boost us if we are in a turbo-scenario.

(4) I have been very unimpressed with Walking Ballista. It used to be in my maindeck but I was never happy to see it. I have a copy now in the sideboard, but in the 50 or so games that I have under my belt post-Modern Horizons, I did not bring it with Karn a single time (the only time I wanted a removal effect was to get rid of a Collector Ouphe :rolleyes:). I wonder if Engineered Explosives would be better in this slot.

(5) The four Lightning Bolts have been great but I occasionally find myself missing a Pyroclasm and have been thinking of returning one to the board.

(6) I have been toying with the idea of swapping my graveyard hate for 4 x Leyline of the Void - I feel it shuts off Reanimator much more reliably than Surgical Extraction, while also being good against Punishing Fire and Wrenn and Six. Obviously Leylines are terrible draws, but maybe Smuggler's Copter could mitigate a bit. Also Leyline has the added benefit of offering us another wincon in Helm of Obedience - this could perhaps give us some extra wins against burn (which I consider by far our worst matchup). I believe Helm was briefly used in the past but I have not seen it recently.

Any thoughts will be greatly appreciated! Keep painting :cool:You are a (wo)man after my open heart. I 100% agree with every single statement you made.

A. I would never go back to 19 lands at this point, sure to the exact issue of Mana screw. It was the #1 cause of my losses. I agree that 20 is where we should really be.

B. Totally agree on blood moon. I currently have two versions of the deck built online. One is a snow land version that runs 1 blood moon and two tangle wire. The second is the more standard version but I went up to 3 blood moon main, specifically for the issues you brought up. RUG delver is super popular these days. There are very few popular decks that are less than 3 colors right now. The only one is really U/R delver.

C. I am also on 4 x leyline in both versions right now. It's the only strategy that makes sense, especially if you want to try to hit dreadhorde arcanist/pteromamder/snapcaster/tarmogoyf/gurmag strategies on top of the usual suspects. Honestly, in my snow version of the deck, the leyline aren't even that hard to cast out of the hand. I think you still need a tormods crypt in the board for Karn. And also finding room for helm can be tough.

D. Totally agree with walking ballista. I took it out once engineer became legal.

E. Crystal Vein night not be bad. We've all had the feel-bad double City hand. The only issue is that, if you plan on going up on blood moon, I would probably keep the cities so you can turn 1-2 without having to lose a land.

Welcome to the forum!

[Jungian Thing]

Hey Drude,

What are your latest lists? Do you keep them on tappedout or the like?

[schweinefettmann]

Leyline of the void vs Rest In Peace. Is there an argument for rip in that it’s at least in colour, costs less?

The asymmetry of leyline is awesome tho I guess.


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[colo]

A number of moons ago, when BR Reanmiator first reared its ugly head, I decided to axe all D&T's graveyard hate for 4x Leyline of the Void in the SB. The very first match I found myself in need for it in my starting hand, I literally mulled down to one to find a darned copy post-board - and failed.

That was the day that I swore to myself I wouldn't rely on completely non-castable, pre-game effects alone to fix problematic matchups. I see how the London mulligan changes the equation *a lot*, and that the absurd scenario described above is even more unlikely to manifest nowadays - but since Reverent Silence is a common SB choice for yard-dependent decks, I'd still prefer to have the opportunity to re-apply the most effective hate-tool, which is going to be Rest in Peace (augmented by a combination of cards like Surgical Extraction and Faerie Macabre) for me.

[drude1]

It would obviously depend on your build. If you are on the older list with 2 welder and 0-1 engineer then RiP is okay I guess. But if you are on a 3-4 welder, 3 engineer build then RiP is obviously terrible. My biggest problem with RiP is that it's too slow against reanimator and in all likelihood storm decks. I could maybe see it as a tutorable 1 of with other hate pieces but then where would you really want it? Dredge? RUG delver? It would likely just get countered
Leyline is just so much better. It comes down on turn 0 and is uncounterable so your opponent has to have an immediate answer. And the odds of finding a leyline with the new Mulligan rule is 97% if you are willing to go to 1. It also doesn't get blown up by abrupt decay, which is relevant. Obviously the best thing is that it doesn't hit your graveyard. If I were to not play leylines (and a crypt), then I would probably run the following: 1 x crypt, 2 x surgical, 1 x faerie macabre and 1 x relic or grafdigger's (green sun is making a huge comeback).

@jungian: I don't have my lists posted anywhere but I guess I could do that if you are interested. The problem is that I tend to play around with them a lot.

[peko]

@drude1: That is a fair point regarding City of Traitors and Blood Moon - I agree that if you go up on Blood Moons, you want the three City of Traitors. For the build with just one moon effect, I believe two Cities and one Crystal Vein may be a good combination. I will test this once the meta shifts again to a place where we want just one Blood Moon.

I have also been thinking a lot about what to cut for an additional land and one or two more Blood Moons. As of now I have cut the SSG and one Goblin Welder. I have never been in love with SSG - I am aware of all the good things it does for us (the "red FOW" with a blast effect, the surprise Grindstone activation, the "counter Daze" mode), but the card always felt very situational and unsynergistic (it does nothing with Welder/Engineer). I have wished an SSG in my hand was a land many more times than the other way around, and it is also the card that most often goes to the bottom after mulliganing. The Goblin Welder is a pure metagame call - I am absolutely in love with the card, but with the number of Wrenn and Six running around, Welders have been a liability for the past week. Welders are always a lightning rod, but having the opponent spend a full card on it is a fine trade - opponent playing Wrenn and Six after you play a Welder is such a blowout. I am going to try 2 Goblin Welders and 2 Goblin Engineers and see if I miss the third Welder.

By the way, this is the sideboard I am testing to make room for Helm of Obedience:
4 x Lightning Bolt
4 x Leyline of the Void
1 x Helm of Obedience
2 x Ethersworn Cannonist
1 x Mycosynth Lattice
1 x Tormod's Crypt
1 x Ensnaring Bridge
1 x Pithing Needle

@schweinefettmann, colo: I agree with Drude that Rest in Peace is simply too slow to stop reanimator, and also the fact that it turns off your Welder and Engineer is too much of a liability for this deck. Also in practical terms, against reanimator I simply know I will almost always be looking for a sideboard piece (an exception to this rule are hands with a turn one blast, i.e. Sol land, Painter, Petal and Pyroblast/REB), and I would much rather that piece to be Leyline of the Void than Surgical Extraction/Tormod's Crypt. I have no statistics, but I am sure the winrate against reanimator is much higher for an opening hand with Leyline of the Void compared to an opening hand with Surgical Extraction/Tormod's Crypt.

[Davek]

So, i attended a small tournament yesterday and decided to test this deck. I ended 3-2 but my losses could have been avoided with tighter play.
My list is a bit unconventional as i always love to test new things:

4 tomb
3 city
3 mountain
2 great furnace
2 plateau
1 sunbaked canyon
4 fetchlands

3 karn, the great creator
1 moon

3 tutor
3 REB (couldn't find the 4th pyro)
3 pyroblast

3 welder
2 engineer
4 painter
4 recruiter
1 cratermaker
1 canonist
1 SSG
1 spellskite
1 wurmcoil engine

3 petal
1 bridge
3 grindstone
2 copter
1 lightning greaves

Sb:
1 lattice
1 LED
1 needle
1 crypt
1 relic
1 bridge
1 triskelion
4 bolt
2 surgical
1 faerie macabre
1 grindstone

To cut a long story short, lost against planeswalker post, beaten steel stompy, lost against a sort of hoogak zombardment, won against ur delver and sneak and show. MVP of the day wew undoubtely Spellskite and greaves, the first one protecting my copter and welder against ur bolts, the second one avoiding my cratermaker to be nuked by opponent's abrade while i was going to the beatdown plan.

[SDBobPlissken]

Posted my first 5-0 legacy league on MTGO with Shortcake. I think the deck is as powerful as it’s ever been with the printing of Karn GC and Goblin Engineer.

2-0 vs RUG Delver
2-1 vs RUG Delver
2-0 vs UW Control
2-1 vs BUG
2-1 vs Rb Goblins

https://youtu.be/HfxkCrCy4SU

[Jungian Thing]

@Bob, well done! Watching now.

My report:
So, second week of slinging Legacy at the weekly competition. I am still not at the level that I see misplays but I am not completely without hope. I go 2-2, playing Jack’s list, which I am sure to configure to meet my playstyle when I am more able to be more critical of cards than I am of my play. That said, I live the dream top and tail!

Round 1 Foil Masterpiece Blue Painter 2-0
G1 – He is on the play, me being a new face he has no idea what I am playing… I keep a hand with painter, plateau, city Stone and et. He drops a Seat – go. I drop a plateau – go. Another Seat (pretty foil!) and then Painter on black, oh? Adrenalin kicks in, my brain hazes over but through my stunned excitement, I am sure I am about to win. EOT I tutor for LED, he still doesn’t know what I am playing. My turn, I drop Grindstone and LED. He concedes which is just as helpful as him playing Painter. I board in needle and surgical.

G2 – I play sloppy, the game goes on for 2 turns longer than it should. I get a Karn active and next turn forget an activation. And I miss a welder line but am able to do it one turn later to win – I was stuck on the idea that I may need to weld out my painter should he drop a stone, which he doesn’t and I have Karn...

Round 2 Dragon Stompy – Sans Dragon (like, what was the original dragon anyway???) 1-2
G1 – I keep a speculative hand that has just enough in it to make me think it was viable, it wasn’t. Goblin Rablemaster makes short work of me and I wonder what sideboard is for this MU?
G2, fast combo turn two. Two cities, painter and stone.
G3, I misplay terribly, we both land Karn’s, his is on 2 and I have a copter up which I don’t “Karn-crew” to kill his Karn… I had the technology just not the brains… Still happy to see some opportunity to improve. Need to jam more games with Karn.

Round 3 – RU delver - It’s an old friend back for his first week after a long absence. 0-2.
G1 – I basically tomb myself to death with him saying “no” to everything except my self damage and a Canonist. I get in bolt distance and he grabs a Pyrrhic victory. But a win is a win.
G2 - He flips a delver, says “no” a lot and then beats me down. I'm flooded. What is the board strategy here? I load in bolts but still unsure what loads out.

Round 4 – Steel Stompy, with outside help 2-1
G1 – Turn 2 LED grindstone combo FTW! I board Walking Ballista and bolts. God knows why.
G2 – I hold a bridge in hand, but the board is stalled and decide not to cast it, he has Chalice on 1. Mistakes were made, he thought knot seers the bridge and beats me down with a Seer, revoker (on stone), Steel Overseer. I just drop chumps and die.
G3 – Other players have finished and start to drop by for a chat. I keep a hand that puts out a turn 2 Karn into turn 3 Lattice cast off sol lands. He drops a Ravager on T1, and when Karn hits he is a little discombobulated so a friend helps him by telling him to modular it in response to Karn to beatdown Karn. I have answers and he concedes.

As I said, I am still really rusty. I play sloppy and wish I had friends on the sideline helping me out. I am tempted to record my games to subject them to the full force of “someone is wrong on the internet.” I can do better and will.

[tired_papasmurf]

http://www.starcitygames.com/decks/131272

Got 11th in an SCG Classic running 4/4 Welder/Engineer split feat 4 Astrolabes as Welder food + fixing. Beat 4c Control, Miricles, Grixis Delver, Turbo Depths, Stoneblade, and Infect. Lost to Lands (with a spicy sideboard) and UR Delver. Managed to dodge Chalice decks and SnS, and looking around it seemed like Post was everywhere.

I'm big on Engineer. It was gas and I felt like it was allowing me to keep threatening to combo way more than before we had it. Recruiting it to get a Grindstone was 👌, and with the full 8 Welders the yard was pretty live. I didnt see any Surgicals all day, so I not sure if they're just low in the meta right now or I got lucky; only gravehate I saw was New Ashiok out of the Stoneblade or Miricles list.

4 Bolts in the side is very correct imo, especially for Arcanist which just runs a train on whoever's sitting across from it.

Changes I would have liked to make is go back to 20 lands with +1 Great Furnace (felt like I had very little mana all day) and +1 ETutor (2 felt like too few), not sure what I would want to take out. With 4 Petals, 4 Labes, and 3 Grindstones, I feel like I had just enough cheap artifacts to get the Welders started, I dont know if you should go lower if you're running the full 8.

[Megadeus]

http://www.starcitygames.com/decks/131272

Got 11th in an SCG Classic running 4/4 Welder/Engineer split feat 4 Astrolabes as Welder food + fixing. Beat 4c Control, Miricles, Grixis Delver, Turbo Depths, Stoneblade, and Infect. Lost to Lands (with a spicy sideboard) and UR Delver. Managed to dodge Chalice decks and SnS, and looking around it seemed like Post was everywhere.

I'm big on Engineer. It was gas and I felt like it was allowing me to keep threatening to combo way more than before we had it. Recruiting it to get a Grindstone was 👌, and with the full 8 Welders the yard was pretty live. I didnt see any Surgicals all day, so I not sure if they're just low in the meta right now or I got lucky; only gravehate I saw was New Ashiok out of the Stoneblade or Miricles list.

4 Bolts in the side is very correct imo, especially for Arcanist which just runs a train on whoever's sitting across from it.

Changes I would have liked to make is go back to 20 lands with +1 Great Furnace (felt like I had very little mana all day) and +1 ETutor (2 felt like too few), not sure what I would want to take out. With 4 Petals, 4 Labes, and 3 Grindstones, I feel like I had just enough cheap artifacts to get the Welders started, I dont know if you should go lower if you're running the full 8.

Just want to say that I'm a big fan of this list. It does seem from looking at it that it's a bit more all in on combo than normal lists though. Beat down plan looks incredibly weak. I also would be a tad bit worried about grave hate, but I think it's a good list. I like that you get to incorporate an extra moon in the current meta and labe helps you still make white. Good run by you it sounds like though. Interested to hear how some matches played out

[tired_papasmurf]

Interested to hear how some matches played out

Well it's just like you theorized, the deck is much more in on the combo and that's how i won all but 1 game. Whichever deck played the Ashiok against me had me beating down, mostly because I couldn't search my library. I was threatening to combo consistently T3 almost every game, which felt great.

The Lands player did a great job at controlling the board and an early Tabernacle followed by Loaming + Ghost Quarter really put the breaks on me. He used Crop Rotate into the GQ btw to counter my ETutor for Grindstone, since I needed the red mana more.

Against UR the Arcanist was disgusting G1 and drew him a bunch of cards and also meant I couldn't play a Welder since he had a bolt in his yard. I feel like you really need to prioritize an answer to Arcanist the most out of the deck, even more than Pizzy probably.

In the matches I won it was mostly me playing Welder after Welder and eventually getting there. The one W6 out of the 4c deck didnt really do much and I just combo'd T3 or 4. I super lucksacked my way out of the Turbo Depths match though: he T1 on the play Thoughtseized my ETutor and I immediately topdecked the second which got me the Bridge. Grixis Delver matchup was super close where I needed him to fade a bolt for the last two turns or something both games I won; i think the sheer amount of Welders he had to bolt throughout the game might have made a real difference there. Having Engineer's second toughness to block tokens is super relevant btw.

[drude1]

@papasmurf: So as you may or may not know I've been tinkering with a snow/astrolabe version of this deck for quite a while now, so I'm keenly interested in your experience with the deck. First, I'm glad that you are having success with the high welder/engineer count; and I totally agree, they are sick when in multiples. If you just play 2-3 total then it's typically easy for your opponent to just keep that threat off the table. But when you play 7-8 then the redundancy makes it very difficult. My only concern is that as people get more access to the newer cards such as W6 and plague engineer, the welders could be hard to keep on the table.
Also, I'm surprised that you aren't playing any LEDs, especially with 4 Karn in the deck. I do like the increase in blood moon. I'm actually at 3 main now. I think the top 2 decks in the last challenge were both Red stompy, so that tells you how good blood moon is in the current meta (online). I'm also having a difficult time completely getting off smuggler's copter and am still at 2. Did you miss that card at all? I would consider going to 1 so you could potentially find it with tutor or engineer when needed. I am also at 2 e.tutor again. With 3 blood moon main it doesn't feel as important. Although I do miss the 3rd one against fast combo where you really want canonist early. I do agree that 20 land is where this deck needs to be, especially if you are running 4 x karn (which I also think is right). Also, you thought a full play-set of astrolabe was where to be huh? That seems excessive but I do agree that it is good welder food; and the card advantage that you can generate by welding them in and out can certainly add up.

Anyway, nice to see this version of the deck do well. Looking forward to hearing more about your experience.

p.s. also no e.e or ratchet bomb in the 75? Did you ever use the needle?

[tired_papasmurf]

newer cards such as W6 and plague engineer, the welders could be hard to keep on the table.
I agree, though with this specific build it's just the Welder that eats it to those cards, Painter and Engineer don't really care. Plus against the W6 decks I imagine I'm bringing in some number of Bolts anyway, so I might be able to deal with it or the Plague.


I'm surprised that you aren't playing any LEDs
Would you be as surprised when I remind you that they're $200? I got to the tournament early to talk myself into buying one, but it didn't work. After this tournament I'm definitely gonna pull the trigger on at least one. There was a game where I directly lost because I couldn't Karn for an LED to empty my hand for Bridge, so if you own them you absolutely 100% be playing 1 main and 1 side.


I'm also having a difficult time completely getting off smuggler's copter and am still at 2. Did you miss that card at all?
Never at all during the day did I find myself wishing I had a Coptor. Plenty of times I found myself wishing I had some kind of free discard effect. At least with this build, the Coptor would probably be crewed by a Welder, but at that point the Welder is tapped and I can't use it to immediately get what I pitched. But if I could just selectively pitch cards without tapping my Welders then we're on a cruise. If they printed an Astrolabe that looted instead of color fixed, I'd love that.

Aside from just the tapping creatures thing, my games were almost all finished in the early turns. With Engineers, Recruiters, Tutors, and Karns, I was comboing so quick and using almost all my mana every turn that I can't imagine when I would have cast a Coptor. It definitely seems like that card would bring the speed way down.


Also, you thought a full play-set of astrolabe was where to be huh? That seems excessive but I do agree that it is good welder food; and the card advantage that you can generate by welding them in and out can certainly add up
The whole day I only got to Weld out and back in a single Labe once for a card draw, usually because if the Welders were turned on I was just winning at that point. The welder-food that replaces itself I think is most important, followed by color fixing. There were a bunch of times where I was relying on Petal as my only artifact to start Welding things back. I wouldn't want to go lower than the 8 <1 CMC artifacts I had. They're not great in multiples, but they at least cantrip. I always wanted to see at least one during every game, to either have a good Weld target or to color fix.


p.s. also no e.e or ratchet bomb in the 75? Did you ever use the needle?
I brought the Needle onto the maindeck for any deck that looked like it had Walkers (W6, Jace, etc) and also for the Lands-related decks (Lands, Turbo). I never drew it though. The EE/Bomb choice was me seeing how much I could rely on Karn to clear out the Chalices, but I could probably put an EE back on the side. Changes to the side I'll probably make is -1 Wurmcoil +1 LED, -1 Grafdiggers +1 EE. I know that the second I take off Cage I'll start getting paired against Dredge, Reanimator, etc ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[peko]

Has anyone recently experimented with Prismatic Vista and basic Plains in the manabase? I used to dislike Plains in the deck, but now between Arid Mesa and Prismatic Vista I believe we have enough "on-color" fetchlands to support it. If we are going to lean more on Blood Moon, it should work well - I firmly believe Blood Moon is the way to go now with Wrenn and Six everywhere (I am now on two but will be going up to three copies).

[schweinefettmann]

Unfortunately, I’ve been trying 4 arid Mesa, 2 red fetch, 4 snow mountains and 1 snow plains, 2 plateau, and have never really thought about the vista. It seems good though; but feels a bit silly when I’ve a tutor and engineer in hand, and only 1 vista as a red/white source.

On the other hand, with 4 astrolabes, I can see it being better than red fetches.




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[Megadeus]

I like the thought of basic plains, especially with Astrolabes, but I don't know if I'd rather have Vista over random red fetch next to 4 Mesa. With so many hands that want red and white but you're on like fetch + tomb as your only lands I think you need to be able to get Plateau

[crowe_1]

What do these 3-Moon, 20-land, 4-Karn, Astrolabe-Snow versions look like? Seems like a tight squeeze for slots, especially if you’re upping the Goblin count. (That’s not doubting it works; just not seeing where all the cuts are.)

[schweinefettmann]

If you’re going with 4 astrolabes, you need only 19 lands. They cantrip, Fox colours, and with the London mulligan, it’s probably the way to go.

All the cuts are all the silver bullets, shaving a tutor. So only 1 canonist and 1 bridge main. Dropping the revoker, cratermakers, or whatever you’d have as 1-of targets.

The aim is to be less grindy, and to be a lot more combo-tastic.



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[tired_papasmurf]

If you’re going with 4 astrolabes, you need only 19 lands.

I think that you need 20 lands even with 4 Astrolabes. 4 Karn and 4 Engineer (that red mana activation is real sometimes) means that you are fine at 3 mana, but you really want to get to 4, if not 6.

[Megadeus]

Went 3-1 tonight with Snowcake with 3 Blood Moon main. I think I used Astrolabe to filter once. I did get a turn where I got to break petal for Mana, weld away an Astrolabe for petal, them weld Astrolabe for Astrolabe to draw a card and get an engine going. It was pretty sweet. Beat Eldrazi (painter stopping Eldrazi lands is so nuts), RUG Delver, lost to Aggro Loam (game 3 I got moon against his W6 but couldn't find 4th land for Karn in 7 turns and he got to ultimate), and then beat soldier stompy. Soldier Stompy Painter being a 1/3 was so sick to block his Thalia, bolt his Daru Warchief, and crack back to get monarch and my engineer back. Deck felt solid. Karn is certified nuts. Killed a chrome Mox and I think 4 Chalices tonight.

This was list fwiw. Kind of thrown together last minute

Snowcake:

Maindeck (60)
4 Goblin Welder
1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Goblin Engineer
4 Painter's Servant
3 Imperial Recruiter
1 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Karn, the Great Creator
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
4 Lotus Petal
3 Grindstone
3 Arcum's Astrolabe
1 Smuggler's Copter
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Blood Moon
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 City of Traitors
2 Plateau
5 Snow-Covered Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard (15)
1 Walking Ballista
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Abrade
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grindstone
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Mycosynth Lattice

[peko]

@megadeus: Good job! I like the direction your and other lists have been taking (Arcum's Astrolabe, more Blood Moons and a stronger combo-centric focus).

I wonder how the single copy of Smuggler's Copter worked for you? One copy feels like a strange number to me - too unreliable to draw, while also hardly a silver bullet (I cannot imagine tutoring for this card). I am now starting to think we do not need the Copter in these builds as the Arcum's Astrolabes countrip by themselves and with 6 or 7 welders give us card advantage as well, effectively replacing Copter's looting effect. The only difficulty I am having in fully letting the Copter go are the Leylines of the Void in the sideboard. They have been great for me against any W6 deck, Reanimator or even AK Miracles and I want to keep them, they just feel even better when you have an outlet to get rid of redundant copies...

[Megadeus]

@megadeus: Good job! I like the direction your and other lists have been taking (Arcum's Astrolabe, more Blood Moons and a stronger combo-centric focus).

I wonder how the single copy of Smuggler's Copter worked for you? One copy feels like a strange number to me - too unreliable to draw, while also hardly a silver bullet (I cannot imagine tutoring for this card). I am now starting to think we do not need the Copter in these builds as the Arcum's Astrolabes countrip by themselves and with 6 or 7 welders give us card advantage as well, effectively replacing Copter's looting effect. The only difficulty I am having in fully letting the Copter go are the Leylines of the Void in the sideboard. They have been great for me against any W6 deck, Reanimator or even AK Miracles and I want to keep them, they just feel even better when you have an outlet to get rid of redundant copies...

Honestly I only saw it once and that was to bin it with engineer. I definitely can see why this version would want 4 Karn because the main beat down plan is much worse with less Copter. Also I played against 3 chalice decks so last night may have just been an anomaly. Just having essentially an alternate win condition is nice. And yeah I've never played leyline, but I've been seriously debating it recently as like a 2-3 of for all the reasons listed above. I could see skimming the Karn wish board a bit and playing them

[Daize]

How is 8 welders going against gy hate?

[tired_papasmurf]

How is 8 welders going against gy hate?

Probably sucks cause you now have 8 cards that just anemically beat instead of tutoring and providing redundancy. But aside from making 8 cards worse, you're just on the normal Painter plan then of topdecking the Grindstone/Karn/ETutor, which obviously might just get there anyway.

[Megadeus]

Probably sucks cause you now have 8 cards that just anemically beat instead of tutoring and providing redundancy. But aside from making 8 cards worse, you're just on the normal Painter plan then of topdecking the Grindstone/Karn/ETutor, which obviously might just get there anyway.
Yeah I mean you still have plenty of ways to just find your pieces. I think grave hate is less problematic than just making your plan B of beat down weaker. That's my problem with the 7-8 welder plan personally

[drude1]

I think it also depends on the grave hate. Surgical or crypt type effects aren't a problem because you can usually get more than one goblin going and you can just out maneuver those cards. Cards like leyline are obviously more problematic so you either play around that type of hate or get rid of it first. And like everyone else is saying you still have recruiters, e.tutor and Karn to find pieces as well. The goblins are just insurance. If our opponents are diluting their deck with all sorts of grave hate I'm totally fine with that.

[Megadeus]

I think it also depends on the grave hate. Surgical or crypt type effects aren't a problem because you can usually get more than one goblin going and you can just out maneuver those cards. Cards like leyline are obviously more problematic so you either play around that type of hate or get rid of it first. And like everyone else is saying you still have recruiters, e.tutor and Karn to find pieces as well. The goblins are just insurance. If our opponents are diluting their deck with all sorts of grave hate I'm totally fine with that.
And Karn can get surgical pieces back too. Grave hate can certainly be annoying, but it's pretty nice when your opponent over boards and then you just kill them anyway

[Mirrislegend]

Every time I play against KCommand decks, I end up totally frazzled. How do I handle hyper removal on top of normal Legacy power? My only guesses are a 4th Karn or a Ichor Wellspring from the SB. Neither see much acceptance. Is there another solution?

[pettdan]

@MirrisLegend: early Blood Moon worked well for me the last two times I played against Grixis Control, nb this was a few months ago. I play a Karn SoU and I expect it to be great in this matchup, the more the better, and that's in addition to 4 Great Creators. You could also experiment with RiP Helm, perhaps.

[colo]

I always found people underestimated the power of Apostle's Blessing as a protection spell for the key painter combo pieces, amongst other things. Maybe you could try it for matchups like Grixis Control?

[Megadeus]

I always found people underestimated the power of Apostle's Blessing as a protection spell for the key painter combo pieces, amongst other things. Maybe you could try it for matchups like Grixis Control?
How often is blessing better than just another blast?

[Michael Keller]

Or Mother of Runes.

[colo]

How often is blessing better than just another blast?

When you're getting your pieces Abrupt Decayed, or when there's a Chalice of the Void on 1, for instance. It's a flexible protection card that is undervalued in the metagame, I think.

[pettdan]

It seems as if Spellskite does pretty much what apostle's blessing does but being recruitable and weldable?

[Megadeus]

It seems as if Spellskite does pretty much what apostle's blessing does but being recruitable and weldable?

And Goblin Engineerable

[colo]

Ah yes, Spellskite is probably the better (but less surprising) choice :)

[Kap'n Cook]

Been tinkering around with my current list in this new meta. A lot more goyfs than I have seen in a long time, obviously buoyed by Wrenn and Six propping up Rug delver again. That, combined with an overall influx of more wastelands has led me to make a few adjustments, now that we've been able to play Karn for 3 months.

Here is what I am currently on:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Mountain
2 Plateau
1 Great Furnace

3 Lotus Petal
1 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Imperial Recruiter
3 Painter's Servant
3 Goblin Welder
2 Goblin Engineer
1 Goblin Cratermaker
1 Ethersworn Canonist

3 Grindstone
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Blood Moon

4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast

3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Smuggler's Copter
4 Karn, the Great Creator

------------

1 Grindstone
1 Mycosynth Lattice

1 Painter's Servant
1 Ethersworn Canonist

1 Pithing Needle
1 Ensnaring Bridge

2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction

4 Lightning Bolt


---------------------

Big changes are to add the 4th Karn. He's definitely the best card in the deck, and I wasn't ready to just instajam in the playset initially since it would require a lot of mana changes and I usually like to make small adjustments to see what's good. Wrenn and Six really changes a lot of how I think we need to be built. Wasteland lock is a much bigger threat than it was before modern horizons, where a leaner decklist made more sense. 4 Karns definitely wants more mana, and multiple Lotus Petals have felt bad in this grindy meta. The 4th city is probably a wash speed wise, and double city hands are negated somewhat by the London mull. Karn plus mana wins games by himself, so another city to just power out Karns seems solid right now. I am watching to see when it comes up, because even something like the 5th mountain or 6th fetch could be better. A big part of why shortcake is so strong is that you can switch towards a mono red imperial gameplan when you need to, where you just develop your basic mountain manabase and/or side out white cards to lessen your nonbasic exposure. Also, the lower artifact count (dropping 2nd furnace/4th petal) for welder/engineer has not been an issue, as the furnace is bad against wasteland/abrade/k-command, and Karn can readily supply food.

With 4 Karn, it also probably doesn't make sense to not run a Painter in the board. This flip flops my initial thoughts, as my only hesitancy was that naturally topdecking extra copies of Painter is usually game winning, but from an overall deckbuilding theory standpoint having another 4 ways to get a Painter in a nonblue deck is too good. The other side is a single Karn can find both halves over two turns while still living, which is insane. I figure 4 recruiters (and 2 engineers if your desperate to find one) are still a ridiculous amount of ways to find a painter. If the meta transitions back towards faster decks I could see these numbers changing again.

Ballista has been pretty lackluster with the change in the meta, and I haven't really found myself tutoring it up with Karn. I think the combination of Bridge into Lattice is fine, or going for a three card crypt/relic combo is a good enough 'alt-win' compared to the additional overlap of ballista. That extra slot from the painter lets you keep all 6 blasts in as well as all the welders. While welder is worse now because W6 houses him, i think its easy enough to side out two copies against those decks, and 3 is still so good in all the other matchups.

Lastly, I didn't test it at all, but I did entertain the though of 4 Leyline+Helm. I think the issue is more about space because you still would want a single crypt for Karn, and then you have to ask if cutting surgical, relic, and the 2nd crypt are worth the leylines. The other question then is is the helm even worth it. You would end up with a 4 mana grindstone line, a 5 mana helm line, and a 6 mana lattice line, which is a lot of space. Then on top of that I'm not sure you really want leyline against stuff like Miracles or show and tell, whereas Surgical is still solid. If Hogaak, reanimator, and dredge gain meta shares then maybe the leylines should be revisited. As it stands now, I think the current yard hate suite is adequate and offers a lot of cross-matchup hate.


Some other thoughts are related to the discussions I've seen popping up. People have been hype about Astrolabe, and while I can see its appeal as welder food, draw, and fixing, some of the rationale behind card choices like extra blood moons don't make sense to me. If moon is to be a stronger focal point, what happens when you jam a turn 1 moon or a turn two off a t1 fetch-plateau-tutor sol land opener? Now you are reliant on drawing a basic before you can deploy astrolabe, essentially leaving you with even more dead cards on top of e-tutor. Sure astrolabe can provide white under a moon, but is etutor lock still that big of a deal in this meta where moon should be game winning? I don't think moon is that good right now even with 4 color piles popping up, as W6 lets them be super greedy with their mana allowing basics. Not to mention still the depths-moon nerf, it just seems like a weird line to walk with this style of build. Overall it seems like it adds a lot of variance, although maybe I am not seeing all the potential upsides.


Either way I think I'll be jamming this for the next month or so as I try to figure out if I'll go to Atlanta. Stunting on a GP would be pretty fresh, so we shall see. Any other Shortcakers definitely going?

[Megadeus]

Yeah the Astrolabe has been somewhat awkward in testing. I do like that it gives you the ability to go like turn 1 Astrolabe into a 2 mana colored threat off of tomb while holding blast up off of basic. I think it's got some potential still. And yes it helps fix under a moon. I do think I agree with the 4 Karn builds wanting painter in the board.

I will be in Atlanta since hometown and such. Still unsure if shortcake or imperial though

[peko]

@Kap'n Cook: Thank you for the great write-up, it is very informative. It is great to see you have gone down on Lotus Petals. I found myself boarding out two to three way too often and was just thinking about dropping one. Also going up to 4 Karns makes perfect sense as it really is the best card in our deck. I am not yet brave enough to move a Painter to the sideboard, but it may be time to try that out.

Just a few thoughts on some of the other points you mentioned:

I have been playing a version with 4 Astrolabes for the past two weeks (basically replacing the Copter) and it has been very good to me. I went +1 basic to make sure I can cast the Astrolabes reliably and am currently on 20 lands (5 Snow-Covered Mountains, 2 Plateaus, 4 Ancient Tombs, 3 City of Traitors and 6 fetchlands). We are not abusing the Astrolabe like some other decks to enable "greed piles" - I find its beauty in other points:

- It makes our manabase more robust by decreasing our reliance on Plateau and Great Furnace. An Astrolabe on the opening hand essentially means there is no need to fetch for Plateau for the rest of the game.
- It works great in Welder-heavy builds. I am currently on 3 Welders and 3 Engineers and having two Astrolabes is fantastic with any number of active Welders. I have engineered for Astrolabe a surprising number of times to get card draw going.
- It works fine with Blood Moon and while 3 may be too many, I feel 1 Blood Moon is too little in the W6 meta.
- As Megadeus mentioned, the Astrolabe lets us use Sol Lands as colored mana to cast the Engineer and Canonist. It is nice to play Astrolabe off a Snow-Covered Mountain on turn 1, and then cast Engineer off Ancient Tomb while holding open a blast.
- While the mana cost makes this by no means free, I think we should not underestimate the fact that the Astrolabes essentially make us a 56-card deck, increasing the chances to draw haymakers.

Surprisingly, I have not been missing the Copter so far. I will keep playing this version some more to see.

Also I have been happy with the 4 Leylines + Helm. Beside the obvious suspects, I like Leylines against W6 decks (W6 but also Tarmogoyf), Show and Tell decks (I feel a Leyline sitting there makes this bad matchup a little more manageable), Miracles (beside turning off AK, stripping them off 4 additional STP/Disenchants feels very relevant in a Welder-heavy build) and Grixis control. The Helm has won me quite a few games against control decks - they spend resources on preventing the combo from happening by constantly going after Painters, Welders and Grindstones, and I like the ability to win by resolving just one card once they are low on resources. Most of these decks have a lot of artifact interaction but very few tools to interact with enchantments which helps. Also while it does not come up that often, the Leylines are certainly castable in an Astrolabe build. I do miss Surgical in combo matchups, but will stay on Leylines for now.

[Jungian Thing]

@Jack would love to go to Atlanta to play but Australia is a little far, one day though.

I hit the local weekly with this list last night and went 3-1. I wore the same t-shirt as I am wearing in my Altered Goblin Engineer.

This was my list. (https://deckstats.net/decks/1896/1370389-shortcake-legacy-w267)

Looking like this. (https://imgur.com/gallery/S3dZaj9)

My strategy is game one combo, as quickly as possible and then worry about my opponent post board or just get Karn to stick and grind one out. Just explode and let them worry about game 2.

Report:
Round 1, 2-1 Doomsday
Game 1, on the play hold a grip with 2x petal, ssg, sol land and combo for a turn 2 grind. All I see is an Underground Sea into a Ponder. No idea what to board… so bolts go in because Bolts make everything better. Right?

Game 2, I lose to tendrils turn three he gets his storm count up and tendrils me. Bolts? Nope, no good. But now I know what to do and London Mulligan is going to get me there.

Game 3, I mull to five with a turn 2 trinisphere, me the engineer slows the game done enough for me to combo and most importantly think. I see lines of play that I had forgotten about after 3 years of not playing and it feels great!

Round 2, Miracles 2-0
Game 1, on the play, I know what he is playing as I jammed some games with him as a warm up and slot a hand with turn 1 set up to turn 2 grind.

Game 2, I have a hand full of pressure and use it to empty his of “no” while I try to find combo pieces, I keep the pressure up with a merde of red weenies that no one ever sees as a threat and go into the red zone while he controls my combo, smelling blood I knowingly over extend into a Terminus which never comes, why? Because he boarded them out… Imperial Recruiter gets him to zero.

Haven't played Miracles since SDT and am amazed at how ugly it is all those cantrips and counters, looks like a cheap but frustrating EDH deck!

Round 3, RUG Delver 2-0
Game 1, I stick a copter and go for the loot beats, then holding his Delver off. I see a W6 but my combo gets me there.

Game 2, I mull to a bridge and stick it, then a welder, next Karn, which I use to get a crypt that protects the bridge that he destroys with some enchantment thing but I simply weld out the crypt and bring bridge back. I don’t really have the game yet but he scoops up his cards and says, “next game?” Huh?

Round 4, Hogaak Depths 1-2
Game 1, Turn 2 grind, not sure what he is playing.

Game 2, He makes a 20/20 token and I have nothing. I miss time a stack interaction. Probably not game changing but Sloppy!

Game 3, I have boarded in tangle wire, and needle. I make a massive, snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, misplay. He has the means to make a 20/20 token and passes to me with a tangle wire in hand and enough to win the following turn. So, I could have timewalked him with tangle wire and gone off on the pass back but instead… I rip a moon off the top and my brain just ignores my plan and slams the moon instead. You know? Moon > Lands? Right? He makes his 20/20 token in response and I am a jibbering chimp on the other side of the table. I die a just death.

All good, I love a misplay I can see and learn from but I could’a, would’a, should’a 4-0’d.

On my list, I think the extra moon was not optimal. Two moons is that in between number that makes it frustratingly random, London Mulligan helps but it isn’t the auto win that begs to be mulliganed to. One on a etutor seems reasonable. I will replace it with an SSG to bolster my game one combo off strategy, SSG is such a poker card, it's a bluff that works and who doesn't love "Monkey Blasts"?.

Liquimetal Coating is kind of weirdly slow, not an immediate Karn threat and if I am casting something like that the turn after Karn, it may as well be a lattice, which is similar and more winningy. I will be flexing that for the next event, not sure to what though? Maybe a Phyrexian Revoker, there were plenty of nonland activated abilities and it will force me to learn the meta and read about opposing decks, it makes for good preparation and therefore play, needle is similar...

Tangle wire was my Ballista and while I misplayed it, I think it deserves more time to see if it can stay. And the art is awesome.

Trinisphere was great, as it is in the games it is great in. I will be keeping it.

Engineered Explosives did not see play but it will….

[Megadeus]

Game 3, I have boarded in tangle wire, and needle. I make a massive, snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, misplay. He has the means to make a 20/20 token and passes to me with a tangle wire in hand and enough to win the following turn. So, I could have timewalked him with tangle wire and gone off on the pass back but instead… I rip a moon off the top and my brain just ignores my plan and slams the moon instead. You know? Moon > Lands? Right? He makes his 20/20 token in response and I am a jibbering chimp on the other side of the table. I die a just death.
definitely did this once. I knew my depths opponent had crop rotation in hand. I had moon and Ensnaring bridge in hand and can cast 1. In my head I'm like, bridge just locks him out and I win. Cast the blood moon, he rotates and makes Lage in response, I'm sitting there like, wait why the fuck did I do that

[Jungian Thing]

You feel my pain....

[Mirrislegend]

Not sure if I should be happy or sad that better players make the same misplays as I do...

[Jungian Thing]

Not sure if I should be happy or sad that better players make the same misplays as I do...

What makes you a better player is learning from those mistakes... especially other’s, now where are our fabulous video producers? Jack? Drude?

[peko]

I placed third yesterday at our local win-a-dual legacy tournament with Shortcake. I played Arcum's Astrolabes (no Smuggler's Copter), two copies of Blood Moon and had 4 x Leyline of the Void in the sideboard as my only graveyard hate.

Round 1 (Jund Nic Fit) - 2:1
G1: I keep a hand of 2 Enlightened Tutors and 2 Pyroblasts, Ancient Tomb and two other lands. I am on the play, play a fetchland and pass. Opponent starts with Veteran Explorer, I cast Enlightened Tutor off a Plateau for Painter, then play Painter off Ancient Tomb, and quickly assemble the combo over the next two turns with double Pyroblast backup.

G2: I quickly die to a flurry of Thoughtseizes and Cabal Therapies followed by Scavenging Ooze.

G3: Opponent has no graveyard hate and I manage to find the combo through Goblin Engineer, with a Goblin Welder in play as well. Opponent has an Abrupt Decay but two welders are too much for a single piece of interaction.

Round 2 (UW Omnitell) - 2:0
G1: I know what opponent is on and as I have no tutorable graveyard hate, I figure my best chance is to try to assemble the Lattice lock. I manage to stick a fast Blood Moon which does not shut opponent off colored mana, but gives me a lot of time as it results is two Brainstorm locks. I get opponent to 10 life with Goblin Welder beats and manage to force a Karn through with Pyroblast protection. As I am still away from Lattice mana, I wish for Ethersworn Canonist and plan to get Lattice the following turn if I draw a land. Unfortunately opponent plays Back to Basics leaving me with 2 lands for the rest of the game. I am now in full beatdown mode - I play the Canonist off an Arcum's Astrolabe and beat with it and random animated artifacts while keeping the Welder up to protect Canonist. The last turn before dying opponent finally resolves Show and Tell and puts Omniscience into play, but Canonist does not allow him to do anything further. I put an Ensnaring Bridge into play that I had been holding for some time, and attack with it for the win next turn. This was the only time I missed Smuggler's Copter, however the Astrolabe did great work as well, allowing me to play a Canonist that would otherwise have stayed stranded in my hand.

G2: I board in Leylines of the Void and start with one in play. I assemble the combo on turn 3 with Pyroblast backup.

Round 3 (Death&Taxes) - 2:1
G1: I have a good start with an unanswered Welder and Grindstone in play. I mill myself for several turns while also drawing extra cards with the Astrolabe trying to find a Painter, but fail to do so and eventually die to small Thalia, big Thalia and Flickerwisp beats.

G2: The most insane game in the tournament and one of the craziest I have ever played. Opponent plays a quick Rest in Peace which I blast after playing Painter, however a second one comes the following turn and my Painter eats Swords to Plowshares. Opponent then assembles Thalia, Rishadan Port and Chalice of the Void for maximum disruption while beating me down. At this point my board is Lion's Eye Diamond, Arcum's Astrolabe, a Goblin Engineer and a few lands, while my hand is full of one-mana spells. I draw a Karn but cannot play it for several turns through the Rishadan Port and Thalia, until there is finally an opening. I play Karn and plus it animating the Astrolabe for double chump block so that I can have one more Ancient Tomb activation the following turn. Next turn I activate Lion's Eye Diamond, wish for Helm of Obedience, play it through Thalia and activate using all my mana and going to 1 life.

G3: I play Goblin Welder on my turn 1 before opponent gets Chalice of the Void down on turn 2. I play Goblin Engineer finding Grindstone, and play Painter from my hand. Two turns later I assemble the combo and opponent dies with Swords to Plowshares in hand.

Round 4 (UR Delver) - ID
Round 5 (UW Stoneblade) - ID

Quarterfinals (Urza Painter) - 2:1
G1: Opponent is on a blue artifact deck based on Urza and Sai, Master Thopterist and also packing Painter/Grindstone as another win condition. The matchup has a nice dynamic between Karn on my side who shuts down opponent's artifacts and Urza on the other side who makes them into Mox Sapphires. I manage to stick a turn 3 Karn and opponent has to play Painter to blast it. Thankfully I have another Karn and wish for Grindstone, allowing me to win off opponent's Painter the following turn.

G2: Opponent opens with Chill turning off my hand of Imperial Recruiters and Goblin Engineers. They set up Painter/Grindstone on the following turn, threatening the kill if they untap. I almost steal the win with a surprise end of turn Enlightened Tutor for Grindstone, but a Force of Will seals the deal.

G3: I stick a quick Goblin Welder and slow down opponent by welding their artifacts. I blast an Antiquities War and play Karn, allowing me to wish for both combo pieces over two turns and win.

Semifinals (Grixis Arcanist) - 0:2
G1: Opponent starts with Thoughtseize into Dreadhorde Arcanist, repeating the Thoughtseize and cycling a few countrips over the next turns. I have a Grindstone and manage to find a Painter the turn before I die with enough mana to activate, however a Force of Will seals the deal for opponent.

G2: I board in Leylines of the Void and Lightning Bolts and hope to see either a Leyline or Blood Moon in my opening hand, however none show up. I keep as it is otherwise a reasonable hand with Lightning Bolt, however I have to use the Lightning Bolt to kill a Young Pyromancer on turn 2. This leaves me with no answer to a Dreadhorde Arcanist coming down next turn. I slow the game down by Ethersworn Canonist off Imperial Recruiter and play Karn getting Grindstone, however the Canonist eventually eats an Abrade and another Young Pyromancer comes down, leaving me two last turns. At this point I have a Grindstone and several lands and Karn and REB in hand. I play Karn and wish for Painter, which I have to play as a blocker with one mana left. Here I make a big mistake - opponent had Abrade in their graveyard and I somehow thought they could flash it back with Arcanist. I figured they would attack and Abrade my Painter and I decided that killing the Arcanist was better than fighting over the Abrade. I blast the Arcanist but opponent shows me Abrade from their hand - game over. It turns out Abrade cannot be flashed back by Arcanist and I could have won had I kept the REB for the Abrade in opponent's hand...

Overall the deck felt good - I was very happy with the 4 Karns and a copy of each of Painter and Grindstone in the sideboard. Except for one game I never missed Smuggler's Copter. The Leylines (and Helm) worked fine - I am aware they have many downsides compared to traditional sideboard, but I believe that their power against Show and Tell decks and the many flavors of W6 and Dreadhorde Arcanist make them worth it. The number of Blood Moons remains a question but I believe it should be a function of the expected share of Grixis/RUG/4C delver/control decks - in a meta heavy on these I believe three or maybe even four could be the right number.

[drude1]

Nice report. Good finish. Can you link a list?

[peko]

Sure, here is the list I was on:

4 x Ancient Tomb
3 x City of Traitors
5 x Snow-Covered Mountain
2 x Plateau
2 x Scalding Tarn
2 x Bloodstaned Mire
2 x Wooded Foothills
3 x Lotus Petal
1 x Lion's Eye Diamond
4 x Arcum's Astrolabe
3 x Goblin Welder
3 x Grindstone
4 x Pyroblast
2 x Red Elemental Blast
3 x Enlightened Tutor
3 x Painter's Servant
3 x Goblin Engineer
1 x Ethersworn Canonist
3 x Imperial Recruiter
1 x Ensnaring Bridge
2 x Blood Moon
4 x Karn, the Great Creator

-------------------------------

4 x Leyline of the Void
4 x Lightning Bolt
1 x Helm of Obedience
1 x Mycosynth Lattice
1 x Ensnaring Bridge
1 x Pithing Needle
1 x Painter's Servant
1 x Grindstone
1 x Ethersworn Canonist

[schweinefettmann]

Wait you only run 1 helm? I figured the strategy would have been to go side in at least 1 and keep 1 on the board for karn (you can engineer-tutor the boarded one, then welder it in).

I’m not sure about the helm leyline configurations. What’s the ‘correct’ configuration?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[peko]

Yeah, I am on one Helm only. Two would certainly be nice, but I do not think a second Helm is better than any other of the current sideboard slots.

I found Helm at its best as a wish target in long fair matchups where you side Leyline in to deal with graveyard value such as W6, Dreadhorde Arcanist or Snapcaster Mage. Unless you die to a quick Delver draw, these games tend to go long and you will be able to resolve Karn at some point; by then opponent will be fairly low on resources and Helm comes as a surprise win condition. In situations when Karn is not under attack, I like to first fetch for Painter or Grindstone and make opponent think we are going for the standard combo the following turn, and then tutor for Helm next turn. In these matchups I do not think you want to board Helm in as you typically side out one or two Enlightened Tutors.

For matchups where you side Leyline in to disable the engine of the deck (Reanimator, Oops All Spells, Hogaak), the Leyline is usually strong enough on its own.

So maybe the only matchups where we may want the Helm mainboard are super fast non-blue decks like Burn. The matchup is a race that we have difficulties winning, so I think it is sometimes (especially when they board in Smash to Smithereens, Searing Blaze and/or Searing Blood) a legitimate approach to put in the Leyline/Helm combo and try to get some combination of Leyline, Sol lands, Petals and Helm/Enlightened Tutor in your opening hand (London Mulligan helps here).

[LeoCop 90]

Do you really want to side in leyline of the void against decks playing wrenn and six, snapcaster, dreadhorde arcanist and such things ?

As you said, games tipically go long, so siding in 4 totally uncastable cards that do nothing except if you have them in your opener doesn't seem like a very good idea.

It is true though that exiling graveyards right now seems absolutely bonkers. I was thinking that a build with 2-4 rest in peace main, one helm main and one helm side could be very good right now. It would be a very different deck though because we could not run welder/engineer and probably we should also cut copter then.

[Milo687]

Hi Everyone!

I am back after a very long break from Magic as a whole and want to get back to painting (planning on streaming in the next few weeks once I get done moving I will post when it gets closer :cool:). I was wondering how people feel about the list that just posted at the Challenge on Sunday?

List in question:
Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Bomat Courier
2 City of Traitors
1 Crystal Vein
1 Fiery Islet
4 Great Furnace
5 Mountain
2 Scalding Tarn

Creatures
4 Goblin Engineer
4 Goblin Welder
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter's Servant
1 Sundering Titan

Planeswalkers
3 Karn, the Great Creator

1 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Grim Monolith
2 Grindstone
2 Ichor Wellspring

Instants
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast

Sideboard
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Grindstone
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Liquimetal Coating
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Razormane Masticore
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Sundering Titan
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Walking Ballista

I am confused as to why the pilot doesn't have any painters in the board to find with Karn? and if anyone has tried the spicy Masticore in the board and sundering titan main.

Also is this still the place for Mono-Red Painter and Shortcake?

Thanks ahead of time and it's good to be back!

-Milo

[Jungian Thing]

Hey Milo, welcome back, exciting times for painter. The thread split in two a while ago, with the imperial painter thread and shortcake thread.

There is a discord server that is more active:
https://discord.gg/zP5QuQ

[peko]

@LeoCop 90: It is a matter of personal preference, but at this point I cannot imagine going back to the more traditional graveyard hate. I agree that any Leyline drawn mid-game feels bad, but I found that an unanswered Dreadhorde Arcanist or W6 on turn 2 is lights out for us most of the time. Beside permission, these decks pack removal, discard and ways to find them, so 1-2 attacks by Dreadhorde Arcanist are often too much for us to keep up. Similarly W6 not only works great with Wasteland (for a 2-color deck that can go almost mono-color we have a surprisingly weak manabase), but recurring fetchlands in combination with countrips also give opponent powerful tools to find what they need.

In summary, I am fine with slight card disadvantage (both on opening hand and through Leylines drawn mid-game) in exchange for turning off the cards that we most struggle with. Once these are gone, I find it not that difficult to grind them out - we just need to mind a few threats which are very manageable without the support of Arcanist/W6 effects: blasts shine against delvers and TNN and Tarmogoyf is less threatening with Leyline too. Their deck is also a lot of air and Daze/Spell Pierce become worse and worse as the game goes. I find that my win percentage against these decks is hugely different between opening hands with Leyline/Blood Moon and hands without these.

I am aware of the advantages that traditional graveyard hate has and there are times when I miss Surgical, but all in all in the current meta the positives of Leyline outweigh them in my eyes. Rest in Peace is certainly an option, but it would require to fundamentally rethink the deck as the welder effects are in some respects our most important engine. Also for reference, I have replaced Smuggler's Copter with Arcum's Astrolabe which make the Leylines castable mid-game (not that it comes up very often).

[drude1]

@LeoCop: regarding leylines, I honestly go back and forth between them, as, like you said, drawing them kinda sucks. However, they are in all reality really good right now. Would I side them in against arcanist/snapcaster/W6 decks? 100% YES! A 1/3 for 2, an ambush viper and a planewalker who's only ability is to ping things for 1 are all pretty bad in legacy. It's also really the only grave hate card that totally nerfs Hogaak. I've just played so many games recently with surgicals and even 1 x grafdigger's cage and it's not the same, mostly because of W6 (BTW, if I weren't playing leylines I definitely would be playing a cage in the SB). It also gives you a very good alt. win condition against decks with a lot of creature/artifact removal. And, if you are playing an astrolabe version of the deck, it's actually not unheard of to cast leylines out of your hand. You could consider RiP as well but it's much slower to get down and usually it's already too late or it was stripped from your hand with discard. It's obviously terrible with the goblins and copter as well. Honestly, I don't think it's wrong to go with either grave hate package. Leylines are just more high ceiling/low floor.

@Milo687: Greetings! Yeah, that another way to go with this deck and honestly I'm probably closer to this list myself than the traditional shortcake list others are on, except my wellsprings are astrolabes and I'm not playing bomat couriers or a sundering titan main (btw, bomat couriers are creatures, not lands). I've seen several people try couriers in painter, and I guess it's a cheap 1 drop that can net you some cards and empty your hand, it's just so easy to kill. Honestly, I've personally never played with the card. May be worth trying. I agree with your sentiment on painter. If I were to play this version I would probably move a painter to the board to add the 4th Karn and maybe splash black for 2 entomb/1-2 reanimate. The thing I don't like about this list is that it's very cold to good grave hate such as leyline or RiP. Cage could potentially get answered by your welders. Otherwise you just have to hope to naturally draw 1 of 2 grindstones or 1 of 3 karn or blow up enchantments with painter+blast, sometimes a tall order.

With how fair the meta has become and all the W6 and 4-color lists floating around, I'm really considering going to a more old-school traditional list with 3-4 blood moon and 2 ensnaring bridge. I used to have such good luck with that list against RUG delver and such. I just think it might be worth re-exploring.

[redwall13]

Hi all,

After reading the forum, I have finally managed to put together the deck and plan to try it at the next monthly tournament. I saw in some post that there is a discord channel for the deck discussion, may I kindly ask you how it is possible to join it?

Many thanks for your help

[SDBobPlissken]

Hi all,

After reading the forum, I have finally managed to put together the deck and plan to try it at the next monthly tournament. I saw in some post that there is a discord channel for the deck discussion, may I kindly ask you how it is possible to join it?

Many thanks for your help

https://discord.gg/gAHRSB

[redwall13]

https://discord.gg/gAHRSB

Thanks a lot. However when I click on it says the invite has expired. Apologies I am in Europe and was only able to check tonight your reply.

[Jungian Thing]

https://discord.gg/6wyfU2

[drude1]

So I know most folks just communicate on the discord channel these days, but this thread was deep into page 2, so I just had to give it some love. I've been jamming the deck a decent amount, but mostly in the practice room and locally, as I seem to be going through a lot of changes with the deck. I'm finally at a point where I'm feeling pretty comfortable, and here's some reflections on what's been working and what hasn't for me over the recent weeks...

1. I'm kinda over the snow version of the deck. Astrolabe was cute and all. It did provide fodder for goblin shenanigans and sometimes it drew a couple cards off of welding tricks, but overall they just weren't good enough. I felt like it was either them or smuggler's copters/bomat couriers, and for what I want to be doing with this deck now, the other options are just better. So I am putting away the snow version for a while.

2. Bomat vs smuggler's copter. This is a tough one actually. Bomat is faster and can sometimes really refill your hand, especially against combo and control, when they don't have cheap blockers. The problem is it's a 1/1 so doesn't do a lot of damage, which is relevant against planeswalkers in particular. It also dies to W6. Both cards can put needed cards in the graveyard from hand. Sometimes though you don't want to necessarily put ALL of your hand into the graveyard (Karn, I'm looking at you), so in that case, copter is better. Copter is just kinda fragile...you have to have another creature or Karn out, and sometimes that creature is a gobin, which you don't want to use to crew. Sometimes copter just sits on the board and doesn't do anything, and that's when it's REALLY BAD. I may actually play a split of these two cards. Since I took LED out of my main, bomat is really the go to to discard my hand when needed, at instant speed. At least 1 copy is probably good.

3. Speaking of LED, like I mentioned on the discord channel, I'm playing 1 LED SB and went to a grim monolith in the main. Honestly, it's just strictly better, especially if you are playing 4 copies of karn. Monolith is just so good at powering out Karn and still serves to accelerate other lines as well (such as comboing off). Of course this cuts down on the 1/1000 God hand draws of turn 1 combo, but the pros far outweigh the cons. I would strongly recommend it.

4. I don't remember the name of the person who posted their list with 8 x goblins and a Sundering Titan in the main, but I've been playing this for a while now and it is super strong. I can't tell you the number of times I've had a turn 2 titan in play and it just wrecks the opponent. I had a game today against Food Chain combo where I won both games because they never had the chance to get more than 2 lands on the board. I would just weld in and out the titan and blow up their lands repeatedly. Yes, opponents are much more likely to board in all their grave hate against you, but we really don't care that much. We can either get rid of it or just play around it with Karn and other tutor effects.

5. If you are going to play the 8 goblin package, I also then recommend a triskelion somewhere in the 75. Much like Titan, trisk can just take over a game against certain decks (eg. any tribal deck or D&T).

6. Celestial purge has been surprisingly good. Not only does it naturally take out some key cards in the meta right now, but you can also name red or black with painter and take out anything. I actually exiled a chalice on 1 earlier today this way. I would definitely recommend giving it a shot. I am currently splitting it with other removal

7. Regarding other removal, I'm having a hard time with that right now. I understand why lightning bolts are good, but are they? They do take out arcanist, but I'm not seeing as many of those lately. They DON'T take out W6, as W6 almost always bumps up to 4 when it comes down. I'm wondering if something with more utility would be better, like abrade or fiery confluence. I certainly wouldn't begrudge anyone for playing bolts, but I think you could make an argument for something else as well.

8. I'm glad to hear people are adopting the 4 x Karn in the deck. He's just stupid good in this deck.

8. I think blood moon is still good, but it's just hard to find room for multiples right now. In Shortcake it's probably right to still be on 1 to tutor for. If I were playing Imperial though, I would be playing at least 3 in the 75.

9. Recruiter has been feeling really slow lately. I may go down to 2. This deck's crucial turn feels like it should be turn 2-3 these days. I know some people will call this heresy but I would never want to draw more than 1 a game.

All for now. Thoughts?

[Darklingske]

So I know most folks just communicate on the discord channel these days,...
I don't like discord and stay loyal to this forum. Yes, i'm probably missing out on a lot of new tech and idea's but I just can't get used to the chaos of Discord.


1. I'm kinda over the snow version of the deck. Astrolabe was cute and all. It did provide fodder for goblin shenanigans and sometimes it drew a couple cards off of welding tricks, but overall they just weren't good enough. I felt like it was either them or smuggler's copters/bomat couriers, and for what I want to be doing with this deck now, the other options are just better. So I am putting away the snow version for a while.
I played the snow version on some small touneys and indeed, I agree with your conclusions. It is nice and new, but I don't feel like it makes our harder Mu's better and thus I already dumped it.


2. Bomat vs smuggler's copter. This is a tough one actually. Bomat is faster and can sometimes really refill your hand, especially against combo and control, when they don't have cheap blockers. The problem is it's a 1/1 so doesn't do a lot of damage, which is relevant against planeswalkers in particular. It also dies to W6. Both cards can put needed cards in the graveyard from hand. Sometimes though you don't want to necessarily put ALL of your hand into the graveyard (Karn, I'm looking at you), so in that case, copter is better. Copter is just kinda fragile...you have to have another creature or Karn out, and sometimes that creature is a gobin, which you don't want to use to crew. Sometimes copter just sits on the board and doesn't do anything, and that's when it's REALLY BAD. I may actually play a split of these two cards. Since I took LED out of my main, bomat is really the go to to discard my hand when needed, at instant speed. At least 1 copy is probably good.
Again, I don't like Copter and always felt that it was really bad. Courrier is something I haven't tested yet, but reading your conclusions make me wonder if we want it. It is true that the only thing this deck needs to really put it over the top is (decent) card selection. Let's hope that wizards decides to really spoil the red mages in the near future :D


3. Speaking of LED, like I mentioned on the discord channel, I'm playing 1 LED SB and went to a grim monolith in the main. Honestly, it's just strictly better, especially if you are playing 4 copies of karn. Monolith is just so good at powering out Karn and still serves to accelerate other lines as well (such as comboing off). Of course this cuts down on the 1/1000 God hand draws of turn 1 combo, but the pros far outweigh the cons. I would strongly recommend it.
I'll test it


4. I don't remember the name of the person who posted their list with 8 x goblins and a Sundering Titan in the main, but I've been playing this for a while now and it is super strong. I can't tell you the number of times I've had a turn 2 titan in play and it just wrecks the opponent. I had a game today against Food Chain combo where I won both games because they never had the chance to get more than 2 lands on the board. I would just weld in and out the titan and blow up their lands repeatedly. Yes, opponents are much more likely to board in all their grave hate against you, but we really don't care that much. We can either get rid of it or just play around it with Karn and other tutor effects.
Only question I have for this is: doesn't Titan hurt you to much too? I mean with taking out a mountain every time?


5. If you are going to play the 8 goblin package, I also then recommend a triskelion somewhere in the 75. Much like Titan, trisk can just take over a game against certain decks (eg. any tribal deck or D&T).
I always like oldschool options :)


6. Celestial purge has been surprisingly good. Not only does it naturally take out some key cards in the meta right now, but you can also name red or black with painter and take out anything. I actually exiled a chalice on 1 earlier today this way. I would definitely recommend giving it a shot. I am currently splitting it with other removal
Nice Modern port! Will try it out!


7. Regarding other removal, I'm having a hard time with that right now. I understand why lightning bolts are good, but are they? They do take out arcanist, but I'm not seeing as many of those lately. They DON'T take out W6, as W6 almost always bumps up to 4 when it comes down. I'm wondering if something with more utility would be better, like abrade or fiery confluence. I certainly wouldn't begrudge anyone for playing bolts, but I think you could make an argument for something else as well.
Downside for Confluence is that it doesn't hit PW and the 4cmc.


8. I'm glad to hear people are adopting the 4 x Karn in the deck. He's just stupid good in this deck.
Stated for true!!


8. I think blood moon is still good, but it's just hard to find room for multiples right now. In Shortcake it's probably right to still be on 1 to tutor for. If I were playing Imperial though, I would be playing at least 3 in the 75.
I'm on Imperial and I'm really liking the triple Moon MD


9. Recruiter has been feeling really slow lately. I may go down to 2. This deck's crucial turn feels like it should be turn 2-3 these days. I know some people will call this heresy but I would never want to draw more than 1 a game.
I see your point and with the double set of welders now, I'm also cutting down on recruiters. So it isn't complete heresy :)

[Hisa]

2. Bomat vs smuggler's copter. This is a tough one actually. Bomat is faster and can sometimes really refill your hand, especially against combo and control, when they don't have cheap blockers. The problem is it's a 1/1 so doesn't do a lot of damage, which is relevant against planeswalkers in particular. It also dies to W6. Both cards can put needed cards in the graveyard from hand. Sometimes though you don't want to necessarily put ALL of your hand into the graveyard (Karn, I'm looking at you), so in that case, copter is better. Copter is just kinda fragile...you have to have another creature or Karn out, and sometimes that creature is a gobin, which you don't want to use to crew. Sometimes copter just sits on the board and doesn't do anything, and that's when it's REALLY BAD. I may actually play a split of these two cards. Since I took LED out of my main, bomat is really the go to to discard my hand when needed, at instant speed. At least 1 copy is probably good.

4. I don't remember the name of the person who posted their list with 8 x goblins and a Sundering Titan in the main, but I've been playing this for a while now and it is super strong. I can't tell you the number of times I've had a turn 2 titan in play and it just wrecks the opponent. I had a game today against Food Chain combo where I won both games because they never had the chance to get more than 2 lands on the board. I would just weld in and out the titan and blow up their lands repeatedly. Yes, opponents are much more likely to board in all their grave hate against you, but we really don't care that much. We can either get rid of it or just play around it with Karn and other tutor effects.


All for now. Thoughts?

Bomat doesn't block Delver.

You should be winning 99% of games where your T1 Welder survives into a T2 Engineer, regardless of Sundering Titan or Grindstone or Ensnaring Bridge. Tinker with two welders to protect it should win every single game where it happens, almost regardless of what you get. I haven't played enough (or at all) with ST, so I don't know if it's worth the slot, but it sure ain't the card you win with in Vintage. Like, why not Mindslaver?

[Davek]

I think Wurmcoil is the best reanimation card for this deck, because it is very abusable in a heavy welder build, it nets you a ton of life and prevents a lot of creatures to attack you. Also, it's very expensive in terms of resources for your opponent to get rid of it. Like every expensive card, it is something you usually do not want in your hand (but i tutored for it many times in long grindy games) so i like some sort of looting effect. Atm i'm running a copter and a pair of Faithless looting but i'm far from being sure that's the right configuration.
@Drude: i'm curious about your list, would you mind sharing it?

[drude1]

Bomat doesn't block Delver.

You should be winning 99% of games where your T1 Welder survives into a T2 Engineer, regardless of Sundering Titan or Grindstone or Ensnaring Bridge. Tinker with two welders to protect it should win every single game where it happens, almost regardless of what you get. I haven't played enough (or at all) with ST, so I don't know if it's worth the slot, but it sure ain't the card you win with in Vintage. Like, why not Mindslaver?

Wha? First, name another artifact in this deck that you get with a turn 1 welder into a turn 2 engineer that's an "auto win"? One of the combo pieces? A bridge? The only thing that's maybe close is canonist against storm. Your are getting a little warmer with the mind slaver suggestion but it costs 4 to activate, so nope.

Wurmcoil is certainly reasonable, but 1 StP completely negates it. That's the only thing I don't like about it. It might be right though in a burn or aggro heavy meta. The nice thing about titan is that, even against a StP deck titan will still take out multiple lands...2 coming in and 2 going out. That's petty good. StP can't really ever exile trial since trisk can just kill itself.

I'll post my list tomorrow.

[Mirrislegend]

6. Celestial purge has been surprisingly good. Not only does it naturally take out some key cards in the meta right now, but you can also name red or black with painter and take out anything. I actually exiled a chalice on 1 earlier today this way. I would definitely recommend giving it a shot. I am currently splitting it with other removal

How often do you successfully resolve Purge vs W6? That's my primary reason to try Purge, but I suspect a 2 mana off-color spell will not resolve in a timely fashion vs recurring Wastelands backed by Daze.

[drude1]

How often do you successfully resolve Purge vs W6? That's my primary reason to try Purge, but I suspect a 2 mana off-color spell will not resolve in a timely fashion vs recurring Wastelands backed by Daze.

Well, I'm playing a basic plains, a mox opal and 4 petals, so that's 6 mana sources that aren't affected by W6. Also, the thing with W6 is that it's not really an "answer immediately or lose" sort of card like Jace. It's okay to bide your time a little. You just can't let it ultimate. Additionally, you have more exciting things to do with your own deck that will be attracting your opponent's counterspells.

First, here is a "general" list of what I've been playing lately...

3 x Bomat/Smuggler (currently at 2 bomat/1 smuggler but could easily go the other way)
4 x Welder
4 x Engineer
3 x Painter
1 x Canonist
2 x Recruiter
1 x Sundering Titan

1 x Mox Opal
4 x Lotus Petal
3 x Grindstone
2 x E.Tutor
4 x Pyroblast
1 x REB
1 x Grim Monolith
1 x Ensnaring Bridge (really want 2 and sometimes cut one of the bomat/copter spots for the second bridge)
1 x Tangle Wire (this card has been better than expected so I've kept it)
1 x Blood Moon
4 x Karn

4 x Ancient Tomb
4 x Arid Mesa
3 x City of Traitors
3 x Great Furnace
3 x Mountain
1 x Plains
1 x Plateau

SB
2 x Celestial Purge
2 x Surgical
2 x (burn spell, not sure yet...bolt, abrade, confluence, etc)
1 x LED
1 x Crypt
1 x Grindstone
1 x Relic of Progenitus
1 x Painter
1 x Ratchet Bomb
1 x Ensnaring Bridge
1 x Lattice
1 x Trisk

I was on 20 lands for the longest time, but recently have been just trying out 1 x opal. I feel like I am playing enough artifacts to support it as a 1 of (another reason I am leaning more towards bomat than copter now) and in my very limited testing so far I have liked it. Vote's not in yet though.

With sneak and show and dark depths decks being so popular now I would probably lean towards the second bridge in the main. If I did that I would either 1 bomat/1copter split or 2 bomat since copter sometimes has a hard time attacking through a bridge.

As for SB, it might be better to go 2 tormod's crypt over 1 relic, for the reasons that Jack pointed out on discord. The ability of relic to eat cards in the more fair matchups though are what keeps me playing it for now. Ratchet Bomb is a flex slot for me and could certainly be something else depending on the meta (eg needle, another grave hate card, 3sphere, etc). Could even play a third burn spell of your choice or I might add a cratermaker to that slot from time to time.

Again, I know most people don't like fewer than 4 recruiters, and one nice thing about recruiter in my build is that it also gets trisk when needed, which has come up once or twice. I just want to see how it goes with fewer. Honestly, I haven't played 4 for a long time but usually have been on 3.

Tangle Wire was an experimentation that was a progression from 3 blood moon to 2 blood moon/1 Tangle Wire to 1/1 split. Fetching Tangle wire with the goblins is really good against combo decks because it really taxes their resources. It's also nice because you can weld it in and out to tax your opponent and not yourself. I decided to download a match against T.E.S. to illustrate what I'm talking about...

https://youtu.be/CbDHIdygk44

Anyway, I know this list looks a little schizophrenic. And for people who don't have much experience with the deck, I would probably play Jack's list, as it is likely more consistent and straight forward in purpose. This type of list adds a lot of different lines that you don't necessarily see when looking at the list on paper. For experienced painters, there are a lot of tricks available to us right now. The best thing about this deck is that you can really tailor it to a particular meta. It's the only deck that I haven't felt the need to completely put away for a period of time, and given the tools we have gotten recently, the deck is definitely for real, and still doesn't get the attention or respect that it deserves.

[Unehru]

Hello,
I'm trying to find 75 cards to take to GP Bologna, November 29. That's my list for now.

DECK
19 Lands:
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Arid Mesa
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Mountain*
2 Plateau
1 Great Furnace

16 Creatures:
3 Goblin Welder
2 Goblin Engineer
3 Painter's Servant
4 Imperial Recruiter*
2 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Ethersworn Canonist*
1 Goblin Cratermaker

3 Planeswalkers:
3 Karn, the Great Creator

10 Instants:
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Pyroblast
4 Lightning Bolt

11 Artifacts:
3 Smuggler's Copter
4 Lotus Petal
3 Grindstone
1 Ensnaring Bridge

1 Enchantment:
1 Blood Moon

SIDEBOARD:
Karn's toolbox:
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Grindstone
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Painter's Servant

Other:
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Goblin Cratermaker
1 Spellskite*
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Smuggler's Copter*
4 Leyline of the Void

I'm really happy with main deck Lightning Bolts as they help stabilize games or deal with pesky PW. They occasionally secure victory when on the beatdown plan as well. Leylines are very strong in current meta and not having to invest resources in silver bullets in the beginning can be crucial.

I'm not sure about Canonists and their value yet. Maybe somebody can explain to me, why they are valueable. Outside the ANT matchup of course :)
4th Smuggler's Copter is to strengthen beatdown plan or when I expect that I will have hard time comboing off.

I'd love to expand goblin combo to be able to weld in something nasty.
I might be testing exchanging: Canonist*, Recruiter*, Spelskite*, Copter* and Mountain* for REB, Wurmcoil Engine, Welder, Engineer and Great Furnace.
As well as moving a Bolt to sideboard to make space for Wurmcoil Engine.

I'm really not sure about those Canonists and need some advice.
Any other thoughts?

ps. It's nice to see more Strawberry Shortcake and Imperial Painter players. Good to be here :)

[Jungian Thing]

Canonist locks the game once you have the combo down. Opponent hits your painter/stone you combo off, they cast a spell trying to progress their board state and you combo off and there is nothing further they can cast in either situation to stop you.

I actually think it is better in a more experienced meta, where opponents don’t concede straight away to having painter/stone active.

[Unehru]

Canonist locks the game once you have the combo down. Opponent hits your painter/stone you combo off, they cast a spell trying to progress their board state and you combo off and there is nothing further they can cast in either situation to stop you.


That's huge! I haven't thought about waiting with activation untill opp is locked with Canonist. Thank you! I might find space for 3 of them now :D

Wysłane z mojego SM-G960F przy użyciu Tapatalka

[drude1]

Yeah, that's kinda the point of the card. However, I don't know if it's worth 3 spots in the main anymore. The deck list has gotten pretty tight lately with all the new additions.

[Unehru]

While optimizing my deck, I'd like to hear from people who has experience in using Lion's Eye Diamond.
It's potential to cast Lattice or activate Grindstone is hard to overestimate.
I can also imagine dumping my hand while Karn grabs Ensnaring Bridge to cast it immediatelly...

...but how important that card is, because I don't see it in every build?
How many copies would you reccomend in MD and SB?
Is it crucial for fast combo win?

[Jungian Thing]

@Drude, I took a look at your list, looks fun and I look forward to a stream, couple of questions,

- The 8 goblins must be felt in almost every round, does it have a benefit or do you find your flooded hoping for a different card? I can see value though.
- Are the extra great furnace worth it with so many wasteland around and Karn...?
- The quasi reanimater line with sundering titan, why not just go blightsteel colossus? Weld it in response to the shuffle trigger, putting a game winner on the battlefield. And it serves as to confuse the hell out of opposing grindstone players.
- I prefer the looter scooter especially good with et in getting goodies in the yard.
- I’ve always played powder keg instead of ratchet bomb, it doesn’t tap to load. It limits its kill to creatures and artifacts but isn’t that the whole point of it anyway?

[pettdan]

@Jungian Thing: regarding Colossus, you can't weld it in because it's a replacement effect so it never enters the graveyard at all. Otherwise it would be the no 1 welder target.

[Jungian Thing]

@Jungian Thing: regarding Colossus, you can't weld it in because it's a replacement effect so it never enters the graveyard at all. Otherwise it would be the no 1 welder target.

Good point!

[drude1]

Already posted this on discord. And already brewing. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190910/3bd8c84d4faf701bd98893871f72ae3c.jpg

[Hisa]

Wha? First, name another artifact in this deck that you get with a turn 1 welder into a turn 2 engineer that's an "auto win"? One of the combo pieces? A bridge? The only thing that's maybe close is canonist against storm. Your are getting a little warmer with the mind slaver suggestion but it costs 4 to activate, so nope.

Wurmcoil is certainly reasonable, but 1 StP completely negates it. That's the only thing I don't like about it. It might be right though in a burn or aggro heavy meta. The nice thing about titan is that, even against a StP deck titan will still take out multiple lands...2 coming in and 2 going out. That's petty good. StP can't really ever exile trial since trisk can just kill itself.

I'll post my list tomorrow.


Hey didn't mean to come off as a prick. Was just trying to point out that the power come from Welder into Engineer, not necessarily Titan.

[Hisa]

Already posted this on discord. And already brewing. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190910/3bd8c84d4faf701bd98893871f72ae3c.jpg

This card is bananas. Its just 3 mana DT+ with Welder.

[Alex_UNLIMITED]

I'm really happy with main deck Lightning Bolts as they help stabilize games or deal with pesky PW. They occasionally secure victory when on the beatdown plan as well.
I'm thinking to play 4x maindeck Lightning Bolt and 2x Pyrokinesis in the sideboard. Why a lot of players still doesn't play Lightning Bolt in the maindeck? I remember that old Imperial Painter lists run 4 Lightning Bolt, like the GP decklist of Kim Grymer. With all these Delver decks, it can be a good choice. I hate Dreadhorde Arcanist.

[Mirrislegend]

I'm thinking to play 4x maindeck Lightning Bolt and 2x Pyrokinesis in the sideboard. Why a lot of players still doesn't play Lightning Bolt in the maindeck? I remember that old Imperial Painter lists run 4 Lightning Bolt, like the GP decklist of Kim Grymer. With all these Delver decks, it can be a good choice. I hate Dreadhorde Arcanist.

Lightning Bolt hasn't been played in a while. It was just recently reintroduced as a 4-of in the sideboard, primarily to help deal with planeswalkers and Dreadhorde Arcanist.

[tired_papasmurf]

Why a lot of players still doesn't play Lightning Bolt in the maindeck?

I dont like it in the maindeck because it might incentivize me to keep a bad hand. G1 in the complete blind, I need to have a game plan and execute that plan. Theres no deck manipulation or cantrips to pivot my gameplan if I see my opponent isnt doing what I thought. I feel like the main goal of Shortcake should be to combo their face in, especially G1 when the opponent doesnt have nearly as many answers as they will G2. Given that, Lightning Bolt doesnt help me combo out, which means I personally want it on the side so i dont talk myself into keeping a hand with Bolts and find out my opponent is on Belcher and I'm just too slow.

G2 though I can know if my opponent is slower and if Bolt is useful, and can bring it in and potentially prioritize a hand that can cast it.

[Spigore]

Would anybody be so kind to provide an invite to the Discord?
All latest links seem to have expired.

Thanks a lot!

[tired_papasmurf]

Would anybody be so kind to provide an invite to the Discord?
All latest links seem to have expired.

Thanks a lot!

https://discord.gg/aJt3G9

[Spigore]

Shoot! I think I've missed it again. The link is not working.

Could you try again papasmurf? :cry:

[punda]

Here is my list for GP Atlanta. This was my first GP. I've been playing some sort of painter for about 6 years. My goal for the GP was to go at least 4-4. I ran hot day 1 and went 8-1 then I went 0-3 on day 2.

Main Deck:
3 Auriok Salvagers
4 Goblin Engineer
3 Goblin Welder
3 Imperial Recruiter
3 Painter's Servant
1 Walking Ballista
4 Karn, the Great Creator
3 Grindstone
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Lodestone Bauble
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mishra's Bauble
3 Mox Opal
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Arid Mesa
3 City of Traitors
2 Great Furnace
3 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Plateau
1 Sunbaked Canyon

Sideboard:
2 Daretti, Scrap Savant
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Grindstone
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Painter's Servant
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Walking Ballista
2 Wear // Tear

Round 1: Death and Taxes
-Game 1: Win with the bomberman combo (walking ballista).
-Game 2: Win via grindstone/painter. They played both Thalias and a prelate on 4. They misplayed when getting a sword of fire and ice with stone forge. I had a painter in play naming blue, They did not know the interaction. I side boarded in both wear/tears for an opal and Mishra's bauble.

1-0

Round 2: High tide
-Game 1: I assemble a quick turn 2 or 3 combo. I did not realize that he was on high tide until this point. Also I did not know high tide ran an emrakul. He then combos for about 15ish minutes and mills me out with brain freeze. In my upkeep I weld a lodestone bauble into play and put 3 basics on top of my library. I win later that turn with the bomberman combo (walking ballista).
-Game 2: Win via grindstone/painter in turns. This involved some welder shenanigans and Karn to grab a crypt. Sideboard in 1 crypt and a surgical. Sided out a opal and not sure what else.

2-0

Round 3: Mono Red Prison
-Game 1: Loss to a quick Karn and trinisphere. Scooped to conceal info.
-Game 2: Win with a quick grindstone/painter kill. Sided in 2 wear/tear.
-Game 3: Win, this was a weird one that I probably should have lost. A few turns in I have a Karn and an imperial recruiter in play and they have a Karn and trinisphere. They decide to fetch and play a lattice, I guess he forgot I had the recruiter in play. 14 turns later I win on 1/1 beats.

3-0

Round 4: Mono Red Prison
-Game 1: Turn 2 win with grindstone/painter/LED
-Game 2: Win. He got an early chalice on 1 out, but I was able to win via the bomberman combo using lodestone bauble. again sided in 2 wear/tear.

4-0

Round 5: Eldrazi
-Game 1: Win via grindstone
-Game 2: I had to explain to my opponent the interaction between eye of ugin/eldrazi temple and painter. I assembled the combo relatively quickly but he had a blast zone on 2. After being in a stalemate for awhile, I was able to win with bomberman combo (lodestone bauble). brought in 2 wear/tear again.

5-0

Round 6: ANT
-Game 1 and 2: They had the turn 2 combo both games. I had turn 3 kills lined up.

5-1

Round 7: Hypergenesis
-Game 1: He was stuck on lands and scooped to the grindstone combo in order to not show his deck. I'm not sure why he scooped as he had 4 emrakuls in his main deck.
-Game 2: Loss. On turn 2 he cascaded into a hypergensis put a omniscience into play then cast an emrakul. Brought in surgical/crypt
-Game 3: Win. He cascaded turn 3 into an omniscience but no emrakul or griselbrand this time. I was able to play Karn then bridge on my turn. Then I lattice locked him (he could still use omniscience). Eventually use Karn to fetch grindstone, painter and crypt.

6-1

Round 8: Bomberman
-Game 1: Win. I play a turn 2 Karn then grindstone/painter a turn or 2 later.
-Game 2: Loss, He turn 1 chalice on 1, turn 2 Karn, then combos in the next turn.
-Game 3: Wii, Again I play a turn 2 Karn then win with grindstone/painter.

7-1

Round 9: Hogaak BUG
-Game 1: Win turn 2 grindstone/painter kill
-Game 2: Win. I play a welder turn 1, turn 2 he thoughseizes and takes the salvager over Karn. I end up getting the combo over the next 2 turns and draw an LED to win.

8-1

Round 10 (Sunday): UR Delver
-Game 1: Loss. I'm on the draw, I play a great furnace, welder, and opal. He casts his main deck abrade on my furnace. Turn 2 I play a plains, but miss the line where I should have welded the opal for the furnace. He was out of interaction but killed me the turn before I could have won with grindstone/painter.
-Game 2: Loss. I was stuck on 2 lands with lots of engineers. He had multiple bolts/abrades/burst lightnings with an arcanist and TNN.

8-2

Round 11: Mono Red Prison
-Game 1: Win Grindstone/painter. Used an engineer to get around a chalice on 1 to win.
-Game 2: Loss. He cast a turn 1 rabblemaster followed up by a turn 2 trinisphere.
-Game 3: Loss. He cast a turn 1 Karn and then got a liquimetal coating turn 2.

8-3

Round 12: Maverick splashing black.
-Game 1: Win with grindstone
-Game 2: Loss. He casts a greens sun for 2 for a ouphe. He killed me with a knight of a reliquary and tireless tracker.
-Game 3: Loss. Game is pretty even, I draw my Inkwell with an LED in play. Next turn a cast a welder. He cast greens sun for 2 likely to get an ouphe, So I crack the led to discard the inkwell, he then gets a scavenging ooze instead. between 3 hierarch and a pride mage his beat down clock is pretty quick. .

8-4

That is where my day ended. I probably stopped prematurely but I had plans with my family for Sunday afternoon. Had I stayed in contention for top 8 I would have kept going but sadly I did not. I definitely did not play as crisply on Sunday. The deck felt strong, but I did not see any Grixis, 4C control, reanimater, or sneak and show. I only saw 3 Force of will decks in 12 rounds. Fast combo is a bad match up, but I only saw that once (ANT). The numbers in the main deck feel good. I'm still not sure on the daretti package int he sideboard. I likely need a way to get opposing Karns of the table. I will likely replace them with a crater maker, another crypt and that new glass casket card. A strength of the deck is that opponents aren't expecting both combos. It just keeps throwing must answer hay-makers. The diversity of threats makes hate cards like surgical and chalice worse.

[Mirrislegend]

Bomberman has disruption/anti-hate in the form of Karakas, Cavern of Souls, and Chalice of the Void. Shortcake interacts via 6 blasts with more interaction in the board. Both decks also have decent beatdown plans.

Your amalgam has none of those. Did you feel the void of those missing components?

[tired_papasmurf]

Shoot! I think I've missed it again. The link is not working.

Could you try again papasmurf? :cry:

https://discord.gg/4bnNgB4 attempt 2

If that doesnt work, the mtglegacy reddit has a list of discords on the sidebar and the main Legacy discord they have also has the full list of known discords

[Daize]

Trying to breathe some more life in the thread and it's always easier to do so by reporting an anecdotal 4-0 win. Regardless of possible fluctuations in results, I am relatively happy about my current iteration and the reasoning behind it.


4 Karn, the Great Creator
3 Goblin Welder
3 Painter's Servant
4 Pyroblast
3 Grindstone
3 Lotus Petal
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Plateau
3 City of Traitors
4 Goblin Engineer
1 Ethersworn Canonist
5 Snow-Covered Mountain
4 Arcum's Astrolabe
2 Mox Opal
2 Imperial Recruiter
4 Blood Moon
1 Prismatic Vista
4 Arid Mesa
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Wurmcoil Engine

1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Grindstone
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Goblin Cratermaker
1 Painter's Servant
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Trinisphere
1 Glass Casket
1 Lion's Eye Diamond


Main questions / issues found:
1. Lots of tutoring, but not enough card advantage / moving the board state forward
2. To Blood Moon or no, and if yes, then how


My main focuses with shortcake were around the following points:
1. Explosiveness without giving everything up
2. Enough tutor effects without giving everything up
3. All while moving your board state forward

This lead me to the following points:
1. Arcum's Astrolabe & Mox Opal for more sustained mana, mana fixing, and cantrip (moving the board state forward)
2. Engineer is really strong and 2 instead of 3 (recruiter) mana cost means it's easier to play around Daze / keep mana open for pyroblasts (think mountain, astrolabe, sol land)
3. Blood Moon is great against RUG Delver, Storm, Depths - all very prevalent decks, with specifically helping make RUG a very decent matchup
4. Even without combo pieces but with Welder & Engineer, you can go for it and get a Wurmcoil (or Sundering Titan, if you prefer) and keep your opponent busy while you develop your board state (and drain their resources).

And so forth.

1st Match vs UB Delver
Game 1 On the play
I get Duress and see cantrips, so I first guessed my opponent on storm. I play painter, followed by a powered out a Karn getting (and playing) a canonist. Opponent actually plays Temur Delver, but I severely slowed him down. Engineer gets me Grindstone and I combo out.

SB:
IIRC I boarded Trinisphere and Canonist in, boarded out some Blood Moons.

Game 2
I have a hand with 1 painter and 2 karns. He discards my 2 karns and a sol land with Duress & Hymn to Tourach, and I topdeck 2 Grindstones to take it home.


2nd Match vs RUGb Delver
Game 1 on the draw
I try a welder, gets bolted. My Astrolabe gets countered, and he starts swinging away at me with a flipped delver. I think somewhere here I cast Imperial Recruiter for Painter. Wastelands keep me at bay, one Gurmag Angler hit gets me to 3, and his Wrenn and Six flips next turn with 2 bolts in his graveyard.

SB:
IIRC I boarded in Trinisphere, 2nd Ensnaring Bridge, 3 STP. Boarded out 2 Recruiters (too slow), 1 Welder, 1 Karn (pretty slow), 1 ?? (he boarded out some big beaters.. I wonder if that's normal. May have to adjust boarding strategy).

Game 2
I start off with a welder (gets bolt), Engineer+welder (Wurmcoil Engine). He surgicals the wurmcoil engine, and I try to land a Trinisphere, which gets countered. I draw into engineer and welder, get an ensnaring bridge and start cycling in and out 2 astrolabes. He scoops.

Game 3
I start with 2 painters and an engineer in my hand. I play a painter to bait (resolves), play engineer (bolt), play Trinisphere (counter), Blood Moon (counter), Blood Moon (resolves, I think), play my second painter for redundancy against bolt, then play Grindstone and combo out.


3rd Match vs Depths
Game 1 on the draw
He develops his board with 2 Elvish Reclaimer. I play Painter, he tries to combo out, I Pyroblast his Depths. He beats me a bit with 2 buffed Reclaimers, but I draw into grindstone and combo out 2 turns later.

SB:
IIRC I boarded in 2nd Ensnaring Bridge (Karn -> Bridge would be too slow), 3 STP, out 1 Wurmcoil Engine, 1 Ethersworn Canonist, 2 Imperial Recruiters (too slow).

Game 2
I start out with 2 pyroblasts in my hand and an Engineer. I play Engineer (abrupt decay) fetching Ensnaring Bridge, and a second Engineer fetching Painter. I get Bridge into play, while he carefully builds up his board. He EOT tries to create a token, I swap out a lotus petal for Painter, and Pyroblast his Depths. In response, he crop rotates Depths into depths. I draw another Engineer and play him for Grindstone, and pass the turn. EOT he tries to create another token, and I Pyroblast his second Depths. The game is progressing kind of slowly specifically because I keep Engineer open. I weld Grindstone in, and pass the turn. Once I have the turn back, I have 2 Engineers open. I activate Grindstone, in response he abrupt decays my painter. Engineer for painter goes on the stack, he responds with crop rotation for Bokuja Bog, to which I respond with another Engineer activation to get Painter back into play.

4th Match vs ANT
Game 1 on the play
I keep a hand with 2 Karns, power one into play, wish for canonist and play it while he cantrips for 3 turns.

SB:
IIRC I board in 1 Canonist, 1 Trinisphere, 2 Surgical Extraction, I board out 1 Wurmcoil Engine, 1 Ensnaring Bridge, 1 Karn, 1 Recruiter

Game 2
I keep a crazy hand of 2 sol lands, 1 Karn, 2 LED, 1 Canonist (and ? Astrolabe?). I T2 Karn + Lattice, but he has Chain of Vapor. He bounces Karn, I play Karn again next turn and he found Hurkyll's Recall and bounces all my everything. I smile and grab my stuff together for game 3.

Game 3
I keep a hand of surgical extraction, 2 Karn, 1 Welder. I play Welder, and in the next 2 turns he discards my Karns. I draw into Grindstone, play it. He plays Infernal Tutor to get another copy of Cabal Ritual. I Surgical the tutor and.. he had 2 more in his hand, and a Hurkyll's Recall (this should already have been the good game). I draw into an Engineer, play him, bin Painter. Next turn, I get Painter into play for Mox Opal, go. Turn after, I activate Grindstone. Hurkyll's Recall in response. In response to that, I weld Grindstone out for Mox Opal, use Mox Opal to pay for Engineer Grindstone back in (untapped), and activate Grindstone again for the win.



I barely saw recruiter, only cast him once. Didn't really miss him. May go back to trying out Seasoned Pyromancer again in its slot. Blood Moons have been amazing, and I haven't missed Enlightened Tutor once - mainly because of 4 Blood Moon. Wurmcoil is great as a threat, but maybe Sundering Titan could be even better, specifically against UW/Jeskai decks (if they let you even resolve Welder & Engineer...).

[JackaBo]

Very strange deck indentifying going on here. M1 RUG Delver with duress and hymn??? M2 more RUG delver, this time with Anglers.

Other than that, thanks for the report sounds like great games!

[Daize]

Thanks JackaBo, I completely messed those up, corrected. First one was UB, second one was some 4 colour delver (black for Anglers..). And cheers!

[Davek]

Trying to breathe some more life in the thread and it's always easier to do so by reporting an anecdotal 4-0 win. Regardless of possible fluctuations in results, I am relatively happy about my current iteration and the reasoning behind it.


4 Karn, the Great Creator
3 Goblin Welder
3 Painter's Servant
4 Pyroblast
3 Grindstone
3 Lotus Petal
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Plateau
3 City of Traitors
4 Goblin Engineer
1 Ethersworn Canonist
5 Snow-Covered Mountain
4 Arcum's Astrolabe
2 Mox Opal
2 Imperial Recruiter
4 Blood Moon
1 Prismatic Vista
4 Arid Mesa
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Wurmcoil Engine

1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Grindstone
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Goblin Cratermaker
1 Painter's Servant
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Trinisphere
1 Glass Casket
1 Lion's Eye Diamond



First of all, nice job! I'm willing to share my very own impressions(which may be totally wrong) based on the recent tests i did while asking you some opinions:

- with the exception of delver decks I found Blood Moon as a very marginal card. Stompy and Wrenn and Six's Wasteland recurtion are rampant and every deck is packing a bunch of basic lands, so I feel one copy or maybe 2 at maximum are sufficient. Almost every time my opponent sees i'm starting the game dropping a basic Mountain he starts fetching for basics as well and that immediately nerfs any Blood Moon plan.
- Wurmcoil Engine >>>> Sundering Titan. Our manabase is very thin and i'm not willing to play something that may end up blowing multiple Mountains on my side. In addition, Wurmcoil stabilizes your life total and cannot easily be stopped by a single TNN that may guard the fort while Delvers are beating you in the air. The power of the play like T1 Welder into T2 Engineer to Entomb Wurmcoil is undeniable. On T3 you're attacking for six damage, and on T4 even for 12 damage (after the first attack you sac Wurmcoil with Engineer to grab back your original artifact, then switch it back for Wurmcoil with Welder).
- i think 2 Tormod's Crypt in side are mandatory. If you hope to combo against Emrakul decks, you need to maximize your possibilities to find the Crypt as the third combo piece, so i usually side in one to be grabbed with Engineer/Tutor and one in the sideboard to be grabbed by Karn.
- if you want some serious card adavantage i suggest to try Ichor Wellspring. I was skeptical at first but have to admit that's a powerhouse while facing decks like miracles, it allows you to draw many more cards than any Astrolabe could do. Of course, it doesn't fix mana.
- why no Pithing Needle and Grafdigger's Cage in sideboard? They're both very flexible, the first stops Sneak Attack, Thespian's Stage, Wastelands and planeswalkers while the other one helps against Elves, Reanimator and is very effective against control decks that rely on Arcanist and Snapcaster Mage.
- are Mox Opal really effective? You're not even running artifact lands, i tested them in the past and didn't like them at all in this configuration.
- are 2 LED maindeck really necessary? As said in the past, LED is one of the worst topdecks you may have, and i almost never dare to use them as an all-in combo.
- STP are the way to go, thay're much better than Bolts, for they take care of the big creatures that really threaten us like Goyf or Angler.

[Daize]

Cheers Davek. Just my pov, I'm not suddenly an authority :-)

I've felt exactly the same about Blood Moon. From my PoV it's a 4 of (instead of 1, or 2) because of (1) higher chances of getting it ASAP, when it counts, and (2) having redundancy. Even if just the moon-by-proxy, i.e. playing a mountain makes your opponent play more slowly by making sub-par, you already gained something. It's just really strong against a couple of strong decks atm: Storm (t1), RUG Delver, Depths. Against the other decks, just side it out.

Wurmcoil Engine - I've been going back and forth on him, but for now he's a great lightning rod that I could potentially hardcast. I agree with you on that point.

I haven't felt the need for 2 Tormod's Crypt. Honestly, SnT I feel is a lost cause, and if you're winning it's not because of 2 Crypt - it's because your opponent doesn't have counters. vs SnT, I'd rather go for a disruption plan and a Wurmcoil beats, or karn shenanigans, than spend resources on a very fragile 2 card combo. SnT is just a terrible matchup.

I haven't really found the need to ever get a Needle/Spyglass, is why. Even if in theory they have their applications.

The deck runs enough artifacts for the Opals, never had the trouble. They're like Petals that don't go away, and 2 feels like the right number, they're great.

I'm actually thinking about adding more blasts (sideboard) and maybe switching out Wurmcoil or Canonist for Ichor Wellspring to try it out. Astrolabe has been great as a card draw engine and mana fixer, so I'm interested to see if there's any improvement there.

As for LED, I never felt that they were wrong. While I've yet to get into the situation that it was a (bad) topdeck for me, the black lotus has been amazing against fast decks and e.g. RUG delver to keep extra mana open for counters / paying off daze/pierce, and then have 3 for activation. I wouldn't use them for an all-in combo unless you're safe. If anything, you're threatening the combo ridiculously early, and can just keep playing freely with the "I win button" on the board, which otherwise would have you keep the significant amount of 3 mana open.

[pettdan]

- Wurmcoil Engine >>>> Sundering Titan. Our manabase is very thin and i'm not willing to play something that may end up blowing multiple Mountains on my side. In addition, Wurmcoil stabilizes your life total and cannot easily be stopped by a single TNN that may guard the fort while Delvers are beating you in the air. The power of the play like T1 Welder into T2 Engineer to Entomb Wurmcoil is undeniable. On T3 you're attacking for six damage, and on T4 even for 12 damage (after the first attack you sac Wurmcoil with Engineer to grab back your original artifact, then switch it back for Wurmcoil with Welder).

So, I think this discussion has been around for a while and is ultimately a meta call. One disadvantage of Wurmcoil is that it doesn't do much vs unfair matchups, while Sundering Titan can pull the rug from under any opponent's feet by demolishing their mana base. Neither option is perfect, whichever you choose is going to leave you unhappy in some matchups. I think I right now tend to go for the alternative that seems to have wider applicability and also be more powerful but less consistent, that is the Sundering Titan. I can see continuing switching between the two..

[Daize]

Got another anecdote, i.e. another 4-0 in the local. I just made some minor changes to the decklist.


4 Karn, the Great Creator
3 Goblin Welder
3 Painter's Servant
4 Pyroblast
3 Grindstone
3 Lotus Petal
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Plateau
3 City of Traitors
4 Goblin Engineer
1 Ethersworn Canonist
5 Snow-Covered Mountain
4 Arcum's Astrolabe
2 Mox Opal
2 Seasoned Pyromancer (was Imperial Recruiter)
4 Blood Moon
1 Prismatic Vista
4 Arid Mesa
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Wurmcoil Engine

1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Grindstone
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Red Elemental Blast (was 1 Goblin Cratermaker 1 Glass Casket)
1 Painter's Servant
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Trinisphere
1 Lion's Eye Diamond

Reasoning behind the changes: I wanted to have a longer game plan like shortcake has with chaining 4 Imperial Recruiters versus Miracles. I don't want to spend 4 slots to Recruiter anymore (I don't really have issues finding my combo - by now, faster would mean more fragile / not protected). Instead I'm trying the be-a-dude-make-dudes-give-me-cards-and-doit-from-the-grave dude. Was strong one game, but haven't drawn into him the other games - which is fine.

2 Red Elemental blast in the sideboard isn't a new idea - it has been done before to go up from 6 to 8 blast effects against heavy blue decks, instead I'd go up from 4 to 6. Cheap redundancy hitting a non-blue-but-painted target at its best, otherwise..

Match 1 vs Mono B Reanimator
Game 1 (play)
He got a mulligan to 6, I started out with an Engineer + Grindstone in hand. T1 Grindstone, he discarded my Engineer with Unmask, T2 I drew into painter, T3 kill.

I only saw swamps, so I thought he'd be on Mono Black Reanimator. Blood Moon would have been too slow anyway. I guess I should have boarded in the Crypt for e.g. a seasoned pyromancer or Karn.
SB: +3 Swords to Plowshares, +2 Surgical Extraction, +1 Ensnaring Bridge -4 Blood Moon, -1 Canonist, -1 Wurmcoil Engine

Game 2
I start out with Surgical Extraction in my hand, 3 engineers and lands. I doubt whether I should keep it as I don't have any artifacts. I'm on the draw, and I try it out. I probably should have mulliganed it as he can discard my extraction, entomb, and go wild. Instead, he passes - I draw an Ensnaring Bridge - and Entombs Griseldaddy on my endstep. I think for a bit and also in the end step I Extract the demon since I was unsure if he'd play any instant speed reanimation effects (he didn't). He shows me a Lake of the Dead, Unmask, Animate Dead, and more lands. Next turn he Unmasks the Bridge, and I start throwing Engineers down, his answer is a Rotting Regisaur. It takes me a bit but with the Ensnaring Bridge, his empty hand, and the Engineers, I grind his library away.


Match 2 vs Lands
Game 1 (play) he mulligans to 5.. I get a Blood Moon down early. Then Karn, Engineer for Bridge, Lattice, and he puts a Punishing Fire on my Karn. I weld away Lattice to prevent him using Lattice for all the mana, all the colours. I get a Seasoned Pyromancer down ditching 2 Pyroblasts, and start the beatdown. He scoops.

SB: +2 Swords to Plowshares, +2 Surgical Extraction, +1 Ensnaring Bridge, -1 Wurmcoil Engine, -1 Canonist, -1 Pyroblast, -1 Seasoned Pyromancer, -1 Karn
Game 2
Start out with a Bridge, Surgical, and a Painter, LED. He casts a T3 loam, I extract it. In response, he crop rotates and Bojuka Bog's himself (yay for wasting resources). I draw into a Welder and Grindstone. I get Welder online, and play out painter & grindstone in 1 turn, and pass. End of turn (with 4 mana open) he copies his swamp with Thespian's Stage. I let it go thinking it's a bait.. Then in his main phase, he taps out to cast Leyline of the Void. I respond with crack LED, grindstone him. He tries Force of Vigor all still with Leyline on the stack, but he can't prevent anything because of Welder. <3.


Match 3 vs Turbo Depths
Game 1 (draw)
He has a T1 Sylvan Library. I get a fairly quick combo from a T1 Grindstone and try it out in his upkeep. He has the decay on painter. I get a Blood Moon down, he has another decay for Blood Moon. Then I get an Engineer in play. Decay. He gets a Bob down, I get a Welder down at some point and am able to get the combo online his EOT, then switch to my turn to have a Welder protected Grindstone activation in his upkeep, which resolves.

SB:+3 Swords to Plowshares, +1 Ensnaring Bridge, +1 Painter, +1 Grindstone, -1 Wurmcoil Engine, -1 Canonist, -2 Karn, -2 Seasoned Pyromancer
Game 2
I start out with 2 Astrolabes, Painter, Welder. He discards my Welder with Inquisition. I draw into land and another painter, and I commence the bea- oh, Hexmage & Depths.

Game 3
This ends up being the crazy match of the night. I keep a hand with Painter, Welder, Engineer, Blood Moon, Astrolabe, and mountain + Sol land. He discards my painter and throws a Surgical Extraction at it. Early Blood Moon but no Mox Diamond, Ensnaring Bridge, 1 Welder, 1 Engineer, a 2nd Blood Moon should be a lot of redundancy while he plays draw go. I throw down another 2 Engineers, and pretty much draw through 2/3rd of my deck and put most of it on the table by drawing 3-4 cards a turn. I finally find the Karn for Painter and combo out.

Match 4 vs "Wishclaw Storm"
Game 1 (draw)
I have no idea what he played before we started. I put down a T1 Welder, a T3 Blood Moon, he shrugs and throws half his deck + tendrils on the table in his turn.

SB: +1 Painter, +1 Grindstone, +1 Canonist +1 Trinisphere, +2 Surgical Extraction, -1 Wurmcoil Engine, -2 Seasoned Pyromancer, -1 Ensnaring Bridge, -2 Astrolabe
Game 2
I have a pretty quick hand with Engineer, Welder, painter. I draw a LED and petal. No discard and I get to play welder, Engineer, the combo pieces and I try to go off in his upkeep with LED. I expect a bounce and hope to play my hand out again next turn to try again by welding in LED. Instead he has Abrupt Decay (?), and I just weld painter back in.

Game 3
I start with Welder, Canonist, and Blood Moon in hand. I have a T2 Canonist that felt really, really slow. But then Blood Moon, Karn, Engineer, Astrolabe kind of seals him off, and I try to take it slow to be able to respond to whatever he comes up with. I relatively slowly build up my combo. I wait till I have welder and Engineer online and activate Grindstone. I get a Chain of Vapor on my Painter, but I sacrifice him out, and weld him back in.

Engineers and Welders are amazing, and they're such great protection pieces. I'm still really happy with the configuration, the list should just be tested more against blue decks.

[drude1]

So, I think this discussion has been around for a while and is ultimately a meta call. One disadvantage of Wurmcoil is that it doesn't do much vs unfair matchups, while Sundering Titan can pull the rug from under any opponent's feet by demolishing their mana base. Neither option is perfect, whichever you choose is going to leave you unhappy in some matchups. I think I right now tend to go for the alternative that seems to have wider applicability and also be more powerful but less consistent, that is the Sundering Titan. I can see continuing switching between the two..Agree with this. I've had so many match ups against 4c control and the likes where they just auto-concede to a Titan. Wurmcoil is also good, but only in the fair match ups and only if they aren't playing white a (aka StP).

[GradStudent]

sup Drude1
Thought of you when I was watching mardu painter on stream at eternal weekend who was playing wishclaw

[Kap'n Cook]

We back homies, it's certainly been a minute since my last post here.

Here is what I plan on testing, with usual thoughts after.



Strawberry Shortcake

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Plateau
1 Great Furnace
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Mountain

4 Lotus Petal
1 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Imperial Recruiter
3 Painter's Servant
3 Goblin Welder
3 Goblin Engineer

3 Grindstone
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Blood Moon

4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast

3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Smuggler's Copter
4 Karn, the Great Creator


Side:
1 Grindstone
1 Painter's Servant
1 Mycosynth Lattice
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Goblin Cratermaker
4 Lightning Bolt


So what's different. Not much compared to the last couple months. I chose to start with my summer list, rather than what I was experimenting with at the tail end of Wrenn-land. I am back on my trusty 19 land manabase. I tried 20 land and 1 less fast mana to be able to fit in Karn, but that was moreso when getting waste-locked was happening every other game. Too often whenever I've played 20 land the extra was just slow. Even though the curve is higher, it's still legacy and I'd rather be able to have better nut draws and pray to get there in the other games. London is a huge boon to this strategy as well.

For fast mana, I am still trying out the 5th slot, be it 4th petal/2nd monkey, but since I am trying to fit in a 3rd Goblin Engineer the extra artifact makes more sense. Plus Shortcake still wants to splash for E-tutor, so for now 4th petal makes too much sense.

3rd Goblin Engineer. Everyone else has been raving about him, and I agree that he is pretty insane, even if you are like me and don't want to play Astrolabe. Fitting the 3rd comes at the expense of the maindeck Cratermaker, but for now I am okay with that while the meta shakes out. A copy of Cratermaker should definitely be in the 75, and for now I just threw it in the board, since he comes up in too many random cases as the perfect card. I expect a lot of Null Rods and Pithing Needles to still be floating around.

4 Karn. Probably the second most broken card we've had access to behind Top. I was on 3 over the summer, but I think the deck will be stronger overall just playing the full set and building around him. I plan on experimenting more with siding some number out in certain matchups, and playing with the numbers of bringing wish targets back in. I really think we've barely scratched the surface on how to optimally play Karn.

For the board everything is pretty standard. Two crypts, one to board for e-tutor/engineer and one to leave for Karn. Surgical's stock will certainly rise with Mystic Sanctuary miracles on the rise, and its still a great card against the rogue reanimator players. Bolt has been a fantastic all around card, and with the prominence of planeswalkers in legacy I still prefer it over other things like Magmatic Sinkhole. Plus, bolt is a much better card with Copter around, as sending them to the dome can definitely win games. Without Copter I could see rethinking the bolt spots.

As for meta expectations, I am guessing that people will play wrennless rug for a while, before fatal push grixis delver returns in force. 1-2 Drop and Taxes will also pick back up, and you can usually count on some number of Ape and Chimp pilots in the room. The biggest thing is that Miracles will 100% be tier 1. I always say, it is only a matter of time before Miracles returns to the top. It is never dead, and Wizards will always shape the metagame around making sure its one of the best decks. No matter what happens, Painter is still going to be better positioned post-ban, since Goblin Welder is rightfully back on top as Legacy's most powerful 1 drop.

[Jungian Thing]

Looks good Jack, I am keen to see how it goes if you are streaming that would be awesome. In response to w6, the deck has de-res’ed with heaps of variation. It would be good to see a stable list that we can get back to perfecting again.

[Kap'n Cook]

At this point with how many new cards there are there really won't be a standard list anymore. Like for me, I'll probably always build starting with 4 recruiter. Others have shaved copies or removed him altogether, but i've been jamming the playset for almost 8 years now and he's saved my ass too many times I don't think I can cut him. So with that in mind it makes sense to add Copters. Or another example is I don't know if I can bring myself to play astrolabes and not run my p3k mountains, or run a plains because then I'd have to run Arid Mesa over Onslaught fetches.

Small things like that add up and can pigeonhole towards certain variants or builds. That, and I probably don't have enough time to test out all the other variants, so I just stick with the core I am comfortable with and tweak cards every now and then

[Jungian Thing]

Maybe, I just think once a list posts consistent result things will stabilise. Hopefully it’s close to your list as I too have too many alters to want too much change. Anyway, go get’em tiger!

[schweinefettmann]

So I’ve been away from the game for a short bit (combination of hospitalised and sick of the shifting meta), and have been trying to find a nice stock list to start from again. Currently, I’m running:
20 lands (4 fetches, 7 sol, 2 plateau)
4 recruiter
4 welder
3 engineer
4 painter
1 magus of the moon
1 canonist

4 astrolabe
1 led
2 petals
3 grindstone
4 karn
6 blasts
1 bridge
2 enlightened tutor

It feels a bit off when I’ve been messing about with it, though I’m not sure if it’s rust or deck.
I wanna find more space for all 4 lotus petals and at least 1 blood moon, but space seems hard to come by. I’m tempted to cut the blasts, but they’ve been really good as an out to many situations.
I’d cut the enlightened tutors, but then having the 1-of blood moon doesn’t work at that point.




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[SDBobPlissken]

Sweet, didn't realize we had been moved to the established decks forum. I posted on the discord also but figured I'd leave the link here too. I went 7-2 in the MTGO Legacy Format playoffs coming in 17th place with Shortcake. Here is the link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsdvsSZy_y8 . Figured I'd list the match ups and how each game was won as well.

The list:

4 ancient tomb
3 city of traitors
3 bloodstained mire
2 wooded foothills
1 great furnace
2 plateau
4 mountain
4 imperial recruiter
3 painter's servant
3 goblin welder
2 goblin engineer
1 goblin cratermaker
1 ethersworn canonist
2 simian spirit guide
3 lotus petal
1 lion's eye diamond
3 blood moon
1 ensnaring bridge
2 enlightened tutor
4 pyroblast
2 red elemental blast
3 smuggler's copter
3 grindstone
3 Karn, the Great Creator

Sideboard:

1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Liquimetal Coating
2 tormod's crypt
1 ethersworn canonist
4 lightning bolt
2 surgical extraction
1 painter's servant
1 grindstone
1 wurmcoil engine
1 ensnaring bridge

Round 1: vs BUG Hogaak
G1: A late blood moon locks him out after we trade resources
G2: Combo

Round 2: vs UWG Snow Control
G1: Combo
G2: Lattice Lock

Round 3: vs Wishclaw Storm
G1: Loss to Tendrils
G2: Loss to turn a timely Crash on my turn 2 after activating the combo. I lose to tendrils again

Round 4: vs Mono U Painter

G1: Combo
G2: Karn/Coating Lock

Round 5: vs Lands
G1: Loss to Marit Lage
G2: Combo
G3: Combo w/ Blood Moon after a long grind

Round 6: vs BUG Hogaak
G1: Combo
G2: Combo/Moon

Round 7: vs Death and Taxes

G1: Combo after landing an early blood moon and he had no basics
G2: Loss to a well timed wasteland and could not catch up in time
G3: Loss to typical DNT things

Round 8: vs 4c UWBG Snow Control
G1: Coating Lock
G2: Combo

Round 9: vs Aluren
G1: Combo
G2: Loss
G3: Combo

Deck felt pretty good and I don't think there are many changes I would like to make at this time.

[schweinefettmann]

I really wanna ask about liquimetal coating.
I personally think it’s great, but at times, it’s so bad, and dependent upon karn, I’m not sure it’s worth the sideboard slot. How useful was it for you?


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[Fox]

There’s a fairly large difference between 4 (Karn) and 6 mana, moreso if playing around Daze. Likely not worth cutting when your deck is able to do something with Coating in the event that Karn dies (possibly Weld out their PWs, Weld out your lands for cards, silence a Walker during their next turn, etc...). While it’s not the best to activate Grindstone the hard way, you are more likely to turn over an artifact (Astrolabe); knocking out a Jace or Oko like this [Coat, Weld giving them Astro] will keep you in the game longer. There’s no other wish target that really offers to gradually take over a game with finesse (particularly if Karn should die immediately after wishing) quite like Coating.

[schweinefettmann]

For me, coatings effectiveness really hinges on karn surviving. It’s that that really gives me pause when I wish for stuff.
I’ve also run original karn and gorilla shaman before too, just as an extra coating friend.
Welding my opponents stuff has been a very fringe use case for me generally. I think the most effective it’s ever been was when there was an opposing ballista in the yard, and then I basically went nuts.

So you would say that coating is amazing, and I should give it another go?


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[Fox]

I don’t think it’s all that amazing, but it is the only card that is showing up in this archetypes SBs that can wished for and really drive a game in the direction of Welder. The other wish targets have pretty much one use, while Coating offers to disrupt opponents or advance your plans (even if they kill Karn).

[SDBobPlissken]

I think coating is a good alternative target to get. It is something that the opponent can’t really let you have online with an activate Karn. Coating is good to grab when you don’t have enough mana to cast a lattice (possibly with blast back up), you don’t have any pieces of the combo, or your combo isn’t gonna survive. The majority of time I am able to abuse coating is against Uw miracles w/ oko decks. If you feel like that’s a good match up already without coating then maybe it’s not worth it. I think that with Oko the match up becomes a little more difficult as the recruiter chain becomes less reliable due to the fact that they can turn their astrolabes into elks.

[schweinefettmann]

It’s been a tough sell, but I’m still giving it a go.

Speaking of tough sells though, does anyone have anything good to say about earnest fellowship? The only card it’s been weak against is abrupt decay so far, and at least it wastes one of their cards for one of mine. Was unsure if the slot should be a swift foot boots or something instead. Thoughts?
Or hannas custody?


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[Kap'n Cook]

Got 9th in the Legacy Challenge last week and 2nd in the challenge this past Sunday (~100 players) with the following list. Post-Wrenn Legacy is primed for Shortcake and I'm really liking where the list is right now starting 2020. I'll put together a report in the coming days with some longer ideas.


4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Plateau
1 Great Furnace
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Mountain

4 Lotus Petal
1 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter’s Servant
3 Goblin Welder
3 Goblin Engineer
1 Goblin Cratermaker
1 Ethersworn Canonist

4 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast

3 Grindstone
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Blood Moon

3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Smuggler's Copter
3 Karn, the Great Creator


Sideboard:

1 Grindstone
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Red Elemental Blast

[Fallen_Empire]

Got 9th in the Legacy Challenge last week and 2nd in the challenge this past Sunday (~100 players) with the following list. Post-Wrenn Legacy is primed for Shortcake and I'm really liking where the list is right now starting 2020. I'll put together a report in the coming days with some longer ideas.

Nice work Bob! Looking forward to your report.

[Kap'n Cook]

Newest testing list:

Strawberry Shortcake

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Plateau
1 Great Furnace
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Mountain

4 Lotus Petal
1 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Lion’s Eye Diamond

4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter’s Servant
3 Goblin Welder
3 Goblin Engineer
1 Goblin Cratermaker
1 Ethersworn Canonist

4 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast

3 Grindstone
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Blood Moon

3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Smuggler’s Copter
3 Karn, the Great Creator

Sideboard:

1 Grindstone
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Soul-Guide Lantern
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Lightning Bolt


Only change is I want to try out a Soul-Guide Lantern over the 2nd crypt. Ever since Karn came out, I have been purposefully not boarding him out even in faster matchups because I wanted to see how he would perform. Now, against decks like Delver and Reanimator I have been shaving down or fully cutting if I don't expect Surgical. It's an interesting dynamic boarding the 4th Grindstone and other sideboard cards back in.

For Lantern, I am curious to see how often the upside of it as a value Karn wish target in Game 1 comes up vs wishing it was a Crypt in postboard games. The Goblin Engineer/Welder dynamic of having a weird draw engine and card that can help draw into Enlightened Tutor targets is also at play.

Lantern is a lot worse than crypt against Reanimator because they play Chancellor, which came up in some recent games of mine and stopped it from being a turn 1 play if you don't have a Sol Land or Fast mana. I am hopeful that the value elsewhere makes it a worthwhile inclusion, but for graveyard matchups Crypt is definitely better. (Lantern dodges Leyline of Sanctity too I guess, but Dredge might cut back on those)

Lastly, I think we line up pretty well against Breach. Blasts buy time, and our combo can be just as fast. Karn and Canonist also play huge roles, so luckily for us if this deck becomes even bigger than it is right now I don't think it will really warrant any changes to the list