How would the printing of Angelic Spirit Guide affect the format?

[contra]

I'm wondering how everyone feels the printing of an "Angelic Spirit Guide" would affect legacy. Besides the obvious inclusion in DnT and white stompy lists, I think it would give a needed boost to maverick and potentially dethrone grixis delver. Would it be too OP? Other thoughts?

{2}{W}
Creature — Angel Spirit
Card Text:
Exile Angelic Spirit Guide from your hand: Add {W} to your mana pool.

[taconaut]

What does that card do for Maverick that Elvish Spirit Guide doesn't already accomplish? Nobody plays Elvish Spirit Guide, to my knowledge.

It could potentially be an additional mana source for Belcher or Oops, and it probably would be fine in Eldrazi and taxes or Angel Stompy, but I don't know that Spirit Guides are something we need more of in the format, especially in white, where it doesn't make color pie sense.

[ronco]

What about a zombie spirit guide?

ZSG - 2B
Exile ~this~ from your graveyard, add B.
"you can smell it dying a mile a way"
2/2

[Megadeus]

Maverick would rather have green guide and already doesn't play it. White guide would really just be for hate bear decks to beat combo by playing hate bear turn 1.

[rlesko]

Maverick would rather have green guide and already doesn't play it. White guide would really just be for hate bear decks to beat combo by playing hate bear turn 1.

But Hatebear decks could already play Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, and either spirit guide (for colorless cost. Only color intensive hatebar off the top of my head is Gaddock Teeg - in which case elvish spirit guide is probably best since most of your lands would tap for W) to power out T1 hatebear.

My guess is that "Angelic" would not see play.

[Mr. Safety]

What about a zombie spirit guide?

ZSG - 2B
Exile ~this~ from your graveyard, add B.
"you can smell it dying a mile a way"
2/2

Now this card is sexy...exiling from the graveyard probably makes it too strong, however. Dredge and all that.

[PirateKing]

A thought I had:

if they printed a Spirit Guide for any color, something like Pay n life, exile ~ Spirit Guide from your hand: Add 1 mana of any color to your mana pool.
What would n have to be before it's balanced?

[NeckBird]

As a long time D&T player, I would try it out in order to churn out turn 1 Thalia's. Probably more of a sideboard card cause I'd really only want it for combo matchups, but I've played Chrome Mox in my sideboard before and this isn't card disadvantage.

[Claymore]

In addition to putting out Thalia turn 1, a white spirit guide lets White decks have a very bad Force of Will combo - Mana Tithe. You could do that already with Elvish and Guttural Response, or Simian and REB, so likely not playable anyway despite being limited in application.

[rlesko]

As a long time D&T player, I would try it out in order to churn out turn 1 Thalia's. Probably more of a sideboard card cause I'd really only want it for combo matchups, but I've played Chrome Mox in my sideboard before and this isn't card disadvantage.

If you're interested in this effect, why not just play Lotus Petal?

[NeckBird]

If you're interested in this effect, why not just play Lotus Petal?

A Spirit Guide wouldn't be affected by a Thalia already in play and it can't get Force'd and it at the very least has an alternate use of being a 2/2. Chrome Mox also continues to tap for mana every turn while Petal is a one time use.

[contra]

I think ASG would definitely see play in legacy. Lotus petal is inferior for white decks because it uses the stack and telegraphs your ability to pay {1} for daze. SSG and ESG are inferior for hatebear decks because they cannot be used to in conjunction with colorless mana (wasteland, port, tomb, city). Chrome Mox and Mox Diamond present a different dynamic with card disadvantage and permanent mana.

I believe it'd be a great printing and would give rise to a white dragon stompy-esque chalice deck with white planeswalkers, thalias and the like.


What about a zombie spirit guide?

ZSG - 2B
Exile ~this~ from your graveyard, add B.
"you can smell it dying a mile a way"
2/2
This would also be very cool - and IMO not totally OP for dredge


A thought I had:

if they printed a Spirit Guide for any color, something like Pay n life, exile ~ Spirit Guide from your hand: Add 1 mana of any color to your mana pool.
What would n have to be before it's balanced?
N= 4-6


What does that card do for Maverick that Elvish Spirit Guide doesn't already accomplish? Nobody plays Elvish Spirit Guide, to my knowledge.

It could potentially be an additional mana source for Belcher or Oops, and it probably would be fine in Eldrazi and taxes or Angel Stompy, but I don't know that Spirit Guides are something we need more of in the format, especially in white, where it doesn't make color pie sense.
I agree - it's probably not great for maverick in it's current form - although I'd bet a new iteration would be viable with sol lands, full sets of ESG and ASG, GSZ, and lots of {2}{G} and {2}{W} creatures.

[rlesko]

A Spirit Guide wouldn't be affected by a Thalia already in play and it can't get Force'd and it at the very least has an alternate use of being a 2/2. Chrome Mox also continues to tap for mana every turn while Petal is a one time use.

Thats irrelevant- if they have a force of will your turn 1 hatebear is not resolving regardless of lotus petal vs chrome mox vs spirit guide (unless cavern is involved, in which case, this line of play is ALREADY available to you via cavern + elvish / simian).

Don't shift the conversation here- you originally said you might play the hypothetical card to power out turn 1 hatebears- you haven't pointed out a plausible unique scenario where a white spirit guide would do the job and elvish / simian / chrome mox / petal wouldn't.

[Crimhead]

Nice idea, but we all know the next Spirit Guide will be a :u: Merfolk.

[Ronald Deuce]

A thought I had:

if they printed a Spirit Guide for any color, something like Pay n life, exile ~ Spirit Guide from your hand: Add 1 mana of any color to your mana pool.
What would n have to be before it's balanced?

I think 5 life probably makes the most sense. Puts you in aggro range pretty quickly when combined with fetches/painlands of various flavors, and it's a quarter of your starting total—totally something black would make you pay for even faster fast mana.

Of course, there won't be blue or black Spirit Guides because the things you can do in any format with that speed in those colors would be hideously oppressive—ly awesome. I dare to dream. All Spells, REPRESENT.

[Manroe]

My friends and I always joke around with "what if" cards and we came up with the Spirit Guide that makes a U only to be spent on artifact spells. We had a pretty long debate on if it were too strong or not.

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[Cyrus]

What about a zombie spirit guide?

ZSG - 2B
Exile ~this~ from your graveyard, add B.
"you can smell it dying a mile a way"
2/2

Now this would be amazing. I think I'll go sleep thinking about that one.

[Megadeus]

White spirit guide for white eldrazi decks might be interesting. So many turn 1 Thalia Heretic Cathar. That makes me happy. I mean it's still not better than cantrip decks but I'd play it. Black zombie guide in that iteration is probably busted, but I couldn't tell you why. I'm just confident it's somehow broken

[ronco]

As much as I would love to see a ZSG printing, its really wishful thinking. I think flavor wise exile from the graveyard is the correct move, but that negates the disadvantage of a card in hand for mana like the rest, so the tempo is a little different. Maybe exile it from your hand AND a creature from the yard for b? That might be too conditional, but I don't know. Off the top of my head, in the original form, I see it benefiting in the following way:

-It helps dredge get additional tempo (something no one except dredge players want) while feeding ichorid
-it can be pitched to a collective brutality along with another fatty (if one isn't in the yard already) and acts as a lotus petal for a dark rit/reanimation
-If someone goes old school and dark rits into a buried alive, then 1 fatty and 2 ZSG could be pitched and now you can afford almost all reanimation spells.
-self protects from surgical/targeted grave hate cards
-if its in play, works well with "sac a creature" effects as it generates tempo.
-with a sac/discard outlet, helps defeat daze (that is kind of a stretch)
-late(r) game ramp in more limited environments
-Curving out/nullifying cards with drawbacks that say "as an additional cost, discard a card"


I'm sure there would be many more, that was just what I could come up with quickly.
I'm brewing a casual zombie deck and I've always played black, so I've wanted this card for a long time but I understand if I don't get it haha.

[dte]

Careful study / faithless looting, discard griselbrand and ZSG, reanimate?
I do think that would be terribly oppressing.

Same for, pay x life, add one the colour of your choice: it would be played in T1 decks such as belcher, oops, ... Not something I would deem desirable.

[slave]

Now this card is sexy...exiling from the graveyard probably makes it too strong, however. Dredge and all that.
You're probably right, but it's not like Dredge has it easy, or is even in the conversation for a DTB. Graveyard hate is stupid powerful.

[Mr. Safety]

It steals a top 8 occasionally when people aren't prepared for it, but you're right about that.

[MGB]

What if they printed a "Golem Spirt Guide" that allowed you to exile it to add :2: to your mana pool? Would that be overly broken?

[mistercakes]

So mana vault but without 1 needed to start?

[Whitefaces]

What if they printed a "Golem Spirt Guide" that allowed you to exile it to add :2: to your mana pool? Would that be overly broken?

I'll have what you're having.

[Dice_Box]

What if they printed a "Golem Spirt Guide" that allowed you to exile it to add :2: to your mana pool? Would that be overly broken?
As a Stax player, no that would be fine. As a Magic player, 'OH GOD SAVE US!'

[Admiral_Arzar]

What if they printed a "Golem Spirt Guide" that allowed you to exile it to add :2: to your mana pool? Would that be overly broken?

I feel like you just opened a portal into a world where Trinisphere is cast on turn one and Lodestone Golem hulks out on blue mages. It's beautiful.

[Megadeus]

Golem spirit guide please. Also simply nuts in belcher. I mean I'd just use it to power up green sun's fast, but there's far more broken stuff to do. Fast mana is dumb as Fuck should basically be what we learn from this thread

[JDK]

Yeah, more fast mana and stompy decks is what Legacy needs. Let's try to play around each other as much as possible and become Modern with Duals and FoW. /sarcasm

[Crimhead]

Yeah, more fast mana and stompy decks is what Legacy needs. Let's try to play around each other as much as possible and become Modern with Duals and FoW. /sarcasm
I think the quality counter-magic (and Wasteland) help keep Legacy more interactive.

Funny, a lot of people think Legacy needs less DRS/Cantrip fair decks, not less Stompy and combo. Fair decks get upgrades every year, but we haven't seen fast mana since, what, Pyretic Ritual? I'm sure we aren't going to get a new SG, but it would be a breath of fresh air.

Furthermore, I don't think ASG would yield a significant increase in combo or stompy. Belcher and Oops become slightly more consistent but no less resilient. Stompy decks in general don't get better. Angel Stompy or Thalia Stompy might get a little boost, so we might get a little more diversity in our Stompy lists. Even that is far from certain. ASG wouldn't be that much better than Petal.

[morgan_coke]

I think ASG would be the best of the Spirit Guides in the various Stompy lists simply because if drawn late it's a body for equipment, which you're likely running due to SFM. That's a lot more value than you get out of the Gray Ogre in red or green stompies.

[Crimhead]

I think ASG would be the best of the Spirit Guides in the various Stompy lists simply because if drawn late it's a body for equipment, which you're likely running due to SFM. That's a lot more value than you get out of the Gray Ogre in red or green stompies.
You're assuming it would fly? The OP in this thread suggests a card that does not fly - just like ESG and SSG.

I'm guessing angel Stompy doesn't even play SFM - not so god with Moat. E&T lists run it, though.

[Jander78]

You're assuming it would fly? The OP in this thread suggests a card that does not fly - just like ESG and SSG.
How did you draw this conclusion from his post? Nowhere does he say it would fly, just another body to carry equipment in a pinch.

I don't see how this card would really affect the format, good or bad. A :b: or :u: one could potentially cause havoc, but I think :w: is a safe bet.

[Bosque]

Honestly, I'd play the hell out of it if it were 2W - 1/2 Flying - Exile ~ from your hand to produce W. Sling early to get a turn 1 Chalice or Thalia, later on strap equipment to it with evasion and go to town.

[Captain Hammer]

A Faierie Spirit Guide would singlehandedly bring Fairie Stompy back to life.

In an ideal world, there would have never been any of the power 9 and we would have instead gotten a cycle of Spirit Guides.

[Crimhead]

How did you draw this conclusion from his post?
From the comment that suggested ASG would be better suited to carry equipment.

Think I misunderstood - poster was saying that ASG would be on-colour in the Stompy builds that run SFM; and that's what makes it better there.

[Darkenslight]

But Hatebear decks could already play Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, and either spirit guide (for colorless cost. Only color intensive hatebar off the top of my head is Gaddock Teeg - in which case elvish spirit guide is probably best since most of your lands would tap for W) to power out T1 hatebear.

My guess is that "Angelic" would not see play.

I think it'd be a D&T/Maverick Staple, as well as ADNaus in Modern. It means that you not only have a beater, you also have the capacity for acceleration that isn't hit by Thalia.

[Lord Seth]

I think it'd be a D&T/Maverick Staple, as well as ADNaus in Modern. It means that you not only have a beater, you also have the capacity for acceleration that isn't hit by Thalia.A 2/2 for three mana is hardly a "beater". As for acceleration, it's true it isn't hit by Thalia, but the thing is the main reason you'd ever want acceleration to begin with is to get Thalia out to shut down combo decks like Storm more quickly. One-shot acceleration is actually not all that great unless you're getting out something that will win you the game, literally (Storm) or virtually (Chalice), which is why you'll only see them used in decks that are out to ramp into a game-winning spell. The only thing that really fits under that description for D&T and Maverick are Thalia (I guess also Gaddock Teeg).

It might be a decent sideboard card to help get your hatebears out more quickly against decks like Storm, though.

As for Ad Nauseam... that seems a bit dubious. +1 mana is actually not all that useful to getting to where it needs to be, which is why its primary accelerants are Lotus Bloom (+3 mana) and Pentad Prism (+2 mana). True, it runs Simian Spirit Guide, but that's because that's used to fire off the win condition after drawing your deck, and in doing so you'll be guaranteed to have drawn all of them.

It'd probably enable Stompy builds for Modern, though, which have mostly been neglected due to the lack of reliable ways to get a Chalice out on the first turn.

[Crimhead]

Golem Spirit Guide would be fine if it added :1: instead of :2:. Not very thematic though - Golem Spirit? Eldrazi Spirit Guide would be make more sense.