Stifle Vise

[Mr. Safety]

Looking for a fun new project to troll the local I whipped up this janky pile of shit. I've always been really fascinated by a potential mono-blue tempo list for Legacy, likely centered around Delver, but also able to leverage Stifle in a way that isn't underpowered. Black Vise, if landed early, can be a way to leverage mana disruption as a fast threat. I have found even on the draw it has done well in my limited playtesting/goldfishing. If I find this deck has legs at the local level I might actually invest in some Force of Wills to replace the Counterspells. Stifle seems quite good in the format ATM, as it has always been, but without a super fast clock to back it up or a way to leverage the mana denial, it has fallen out of favor. Nimble obstructionist is an uncounterable stifle that can be a win condition if needed.

EDIT: Black Vise is 'on hold'; I couldn't consistently keep cards in opponent's hands to make it threatening enough. Games were finished with Delver, Djinn, Snapcaster, and Obstructionist. Vise needs a lot more 'build-around' cards, so for now I'm going with Stifle-Djinn as the main plan. Dismember is very necessary and Djinn is a fast clock, even though it isn't resilient like TNN.

4x Delver of Secrets
2x Snapcaster Mage
3x nimble obstructionist
3x Tempest Djinn

4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Stifle
4x Daze
3x Vapor Snag
2x Spell Pierce
2x Pact of Negation
3x Counterspell
2x Dismember
1x Predict
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4x Wasteland
4x Flooded Strand
10x Island

Sideboard
4x Misdirection
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Venser, Shaper Savant
1x Tormod's Crypt
2x Echoing Truth
2x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Pithing Needle
2x Ratchet Bomb


Feel free to post and join me in the jank-pile.

[Mr. Safety]

I may play some number of Foil in the deck...it's a poor-man's Force of Will in a deck with 10 islands. I like the fact that Daze feeds me an island to pay for it, and I don't need more than 2-3 lands optimally. That makes Tempest Djinn a little worse, but I was feeling like Force of Will would be too much card disadvantage for the deck that really needs *all* it's cards to keep the tempo pressure on. FoW is a necessary evil however, and maybe Foil can be that card for me. Most Force decks make sure to have 16 cards available to pitch at a minimum, to support a full set of Force. Ten Islands might not be enough to support Foil, at least not a full set. I think Disrupting Shoal would likely be better than Foil, and that card is limited as well. Foil could be a sideboard option when a t0 free counter is needed.

Another card I'm debating over Tempest Djinn is Nimble Obstructionist, because why not 8 Stifles? And a stifle that can attack for 3 as well, with flash? Janky yes, and makes me want to touch myself.

[H]

I have this belief that Snapcaster Mage would be really good here. Stifle is your best card, so getting to use it twice is even better. I'd much rather play that than a sorcery speed Air Elemental for 3 mana. Once upon a time, we would play Modern for shits and giggles and I'd play a bad version of Grixis Control. I'd always keep a couple Shadow of Doubt in there and times where you Shadow a fetch, make your lands drop and their next turn, Snapcaster Shadow on another fetch were priceless.

[Mr. Safety]

EDIT: Thought you were talking Obstructionist, but you were talking Djinn.

Shadow of Doubt seems alright, especially where it cantrips. It has applications outside of fetchlands as well (Stoneforge Mystic, Infernal Tutor, Dark Petition, Green Sun's Zenith, Crop Rotation, Gamble.) I'm not sure it's better than Obstructionist, which can stifle/draw OR beat for 3 in the air, with flash. I have the Snapcasters, and they were in there before I went deep into Tempest Djinn. Djinn might not be good enough, but getting a 3/4 flyer for UUU, and one that rewards late game lands, seemed to be good. Maybe not good enough, but the dork in me has to try.

Thanks for the response! I wasn't sure if I would get any feedback at all, lol.

EDIT: I honestly think Shadow of Doubt could be really good here. Will test.

[JackaBo]

EDIT: Thought you were talking Obstructionist, but you were talking Djinn.

Shadow of Doubt seems alright, especially where it cantrips. It has applications outside of fetchlands as well (Stoneforge Mystic, Infernal Tutor, Dark Petition, Green Sun's Zenith, Crop Rotation, Gamble.) I'm not sure it's better than Obstructionist, which can stifle/draw OR beat for 3 in the air, with flash. I have the Snapcasters, and they were in there before I went deep into Tempest Djinn. Djinn might not be good enough, but getting a 3/4 flyer for UUU, and one that rewards late game lands, seemed to be good. Maybe not good enough, but the dork in me has to try.

Thanks for the response! I wasn't sure if I would get any feedback at all, lol.

EDIT: I honestly think Shadow of Doubt could be really good here. Will test.

Check out Interdict. Doesnt counter triggers but neither does shadow. Maybe shadow is better as it counters tutors of all sorts.

[Mr. Safety]

Will check on interdict.

I'm looking at nimble obstructionist closer, because it's an uncounterable stifle that cantrips, all while conveniently being a 3 power flier when needed.

Edit: interdict is a no. Too narrow of a stifle effect, shadow is leagues better. If it was 1 mana it would be tempting.

I think Djinn might be a no-go. Obstructionist seems way better, even if it isn't as big. Will be changing up the deck soon.

[Mr. Safety]

It's probably correct to just play Snapcasters. It's rough, if we had seen Tempest Djinn even 5 years ago it would be a multi-format all-star and $20 each.

I still like the idea of Obstructionist, but it is definitely a tougher sell at 3 mana. Snapcaster at least does different roles (Stifle, Boomerangs, Counterspells.)

4x Vise
4x Delver
3x Snapcaster

4x Bstorm
4x Ponder
4x Stifle
4x Daze
4x Boomerang
2x Counterspell
3x Vapor Snag
2x Spell Pierce
4x Lotus Petal

4x Wasteland
4x Flooded Strand
10x Island

Side
4x Foil
1x Jace TMS
2x Needle
2x Bomb
2x Cage
2x Crypt
2x Dismember

EDIT: Will try 4x Petal and 18x Lands for now.

[Mr. Safety]

So I essentially copy/pasted the formula for RUG Delver/Can Thresh, and that leaves me with this:

Threats
4x Delver
4x Vise
3x Snapcaster
1x Vendilion Clique

Counterspells
4x Daze
2x Counterspell
2x Foil
2x Spell Pierce

Removal (vise synergy-based)
4x Boomerang
4x Vapor Snag

Cantrips
4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm

4x Stifle

18x Lands
4x Wasteland
4x Flooded Strand
10x Island

So it's basically a Delver variant that offers this:

-Resilience to Wasteland/Blood Moon
-Fast clock that isn't creature based (Vise)
-Snapcaster card advantage
-Rogue strategy (nobody expects Vise/Boomerang)

What it suffers from is this:

-Vise is polarizing (incredibly good or incredibly bad), terrible late game, incredible in multiples early. Being on the play matters A LOT.
-'Removal' (bounce) doesn't actually deal with threats
-If threats are answered the late game is horrible.
-cards, on average, cost a little more than RUG Delver, making it a little clunky. Gotta have the right mix to take control early and make land drops
-Force of Will tradeoff is (most likely) bad. Don't lose a valuable tempo element to press Vise advantage (by losing a bounce spell to force) but if someone has the nuts t1-2 and can play around Daze/Stifle/Spell Pierce, I'm fucked
-Without mana acceleration, which waters the deck down, it can't go threat + protection aside from Daze. It's often more important to keep Stifle open t1 than play a Delver/Vise t1.

Games so far are fun and interactive, and it can be completely nuts if it curves out t1 Stifle w/Daze backup, t2 Wasteland + Threat.

Thoughts/ideas for developing the deck:

-Gitaxian Probe + Pithing Needle (gives free information for how to play out the early game, can name fetches to essentially 'Stifle' more targets.)
-Go all-in on Stifle variants with Nimble Obstructionist, but not sure if Stifle is *that* good.
-Drop Counterspell for Eye of Nowhere and go full-on bounce-town to leverage Vise more
-Drop Vise for another threat (Tempest Djinn) and just play a tempo game that doesn't care about cards in hand, just taking advantage of resilient mana-base.
-Alternative Counterspell variants to be cheaper mana-wise: Spell Snare, Force Spike, Dispel, Disrupt, Invasive Surgery, Turn Aside
-Play more lands (20) and go deeper into Tempest Djinn/Foil


Snap
Hoodwink
Curfew
Mark of Eviction
Overburden
Academy Ruins
Aether Spellbomb
Unsubstantiate
Venser, Shaper Savant

[ronco]

What about sunder as a mid/late game finisher with a vise or three out?

Would looking into the STAX bag o' tricks help with what you are trying to accomplish (which I can't really figure out, I'm bad at magic lol). Maybe the sphere/orb or other taxing effects to make it more difficult for the enemy to push through spells? The talk about turning off fetches made me think that's the direction you were wanting to go...

Might be a terrible idea, but Arcane Denial for more vice synergy? Dampening Sphere, and I think there is something about players not able to play more than one spell/turn? Arcane Laboratory perhaps combined with howling mine type draw stuff? Standstill?

I like the idea of overburden, no idea if it's legit or not though!

Disallow seems to fit this deck too, plus has versatility for spells or abilities.

Regarding interdict, what abilities is it missing? It won't get triggered abilities like storm or ETB, are you running into those enough to warrant skipping it (and it's cantrip)?

[Mr. Safety]

Sunder just costs too much. The problem is getting opponents hands full without being able to play spells. Arcane Laboratory is good, might be what I'm looking for. I was considering splashing red for Blood Moon as well, accomplishing the same thing essentially. Laboratory is probably the best suggestion yet, thanks!

Standstill seems bad if I don't already have a Vise on the table. Yes it causes opponents to hesitate to play spells, which might be exactly what I want, but at that point I think I have to give up on the Delver plan so I can shoehorn in Vise synergies. It's intriquing, for sure. It's basically going back to the old Stifle-Nought lists with Phyrexian Dreadnought. I wish I still had Dreadnoughts, that might be actually good.

Rough list:

4x Black Vise
4x Daze
4x Stifle
4x Foil
4x Standstill
4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
3x Arcane Laboratory
3x Counterspell
3x Boomerang
2x Spell Pierce
2x Dismember

4x Wasteland
4x Flooded Strand
12x Island


So it comes down to a prison style approach with Vise as a wincon or Vise as an aggressive threat alongside delver. I like both approaches, but the prison style is obviously more unique. I'll nab a set of Lab and Standstill, they are like $2 a piece, and test it out. Some number of Mishra's Factories would have to be in there, I think, but I need a lot of Islands to feed Foil and the double blue requirements.

Thanks! This seems like a lot of fun, honestly. Tier? No way, but fun as hell.

[ronco]

Do you run into issues of not finding the vise when you need it? Tinker + Seat of the synod might help. OThers:


Artificer's intuition
fabricate
trinket mage
whir of invention


Heres an interesting one:
Tezzeret the seeker put your vice in play and then beat down with them!

I use some of these in my bad stasis deck, and might need to look into ole tezzy myself for that deck!

Bonus, the above can find artifact lands if you get in a mana screw situation.

[Mr. Safety]

I want to keep it legacy legal, lol. I think Arcane Lab and Standstill are really good ideas.

[ahg113]

Squelch isn't as responsive as Stifle, but also is a can-trip. It may have a place if the gotcha aspects are worthwhile. And while this is budget, really oughta have TNN in there. Just not a reason to play him in a mono-blue deck looking for finishers. It is a wretched, horrible card, but makes too much sense not to play, principals be damned.

[Mr. Safety]

Squelch isn't as responsive as Stifle, but also is a can-trip. It may have a place if the gotcha aspects are worthwhile. And while this is budget, really oughta have TNN in there. Just not a reason to play him in a mono-blue deck looking for finishers. It is a wretched, horrible card, but makes too much sense not to play, principals be damned.

I agree with you, but I don't play blue in legacy generally (as you can see no Forces or blue duals) so investing in TNN would be silly. I invested a total of $5 for sets of Tempest Djinn and Nimble Obstructionist, I think it will get me by with this troll deck, lol. If I were seriously looking to make this competitive TNN would be necessity, and I would honestly just move over to MUC or another more powerful blue-based deck.

I like Squelch, it's a more efficient Obstructionist, but it's also counter-able while NO isn't. Still a solid idea, similar to Shadow of Doubt, to increase the decks velocity (which it needs!)

[compacta_d]

I'm greedy and would love to see a Whir package here. Get your Vises. Can also get a pithing needle, Aether Spellbomb or Crystal Shard. Coupled with Crucible of Worlds and Wasteland it would be very nasty indeed.

Maybe Cryptic Command or Trickbind otherwise.

How you gonna forget Trickbind?

I like the Bird as well tho.

[Mr. Safety]

Whir seems quite good, I love the idea, especially with Academy Ruins...maybe with Artificer's Intuition and a set of Seat of the Synod? Then I can play singletons of Needle, Grafdigger's Cage, Tormod's Crypt, and a set of Black Vise. Get them back with Ruins. Spicy...Trickbind is good, not sure if I want more than 4 Stifle effects once I get going on the ArtIntuition plan. Probe + Needle seems really good as well for shutting off fetches, as well as providing fodder and velocity.

[Mr. Safety]

OP is updated with Djinn over Vise. Vise needs it's own deck.

[ronco]

Indeed, I'm doing my best to make vise a wincon in my traditional stasis turned stasis/stax tezzeret deck. Dom added a lot of cool twists with voltaic servant and that 7/7 traxos fellow. both can be tutored diretly into play (as can vise) with tezz the seeker. Grim monoliths can be untapped, tangle wire things can be untapped. Heck i'm even looking at time of ice (whatever that saga is) and Blink of an eye. 4 potential cards in one set? psh, unheard of!

[Mr. Safety]

I am having a blast with the Djinn version for now, but I want build around Artificer's Intuition and find a way to prevent opponent's from playing spells, like Gitaxian Probe + Pithing Needle for fetches, Stifle/Obstructionist for fetches, Remand for spells, and then find a way to lock them down with Arcane Laboratory and/or Winter Orb. It ends up being jammed, but it will sort itself out. I know I want 4x Winter Orb, 4x Black Vise, and 3x Artificer's Intuition. Beyond that I can play a toolbox for hate cards, work in cantrips, and see if I need further lock pieces. I think Howling Mine is a little too dangerous, but Winter Orb seems like an easier work-around than Stasis.

Will update with list once I figure it out...

Blink of an Eye is a functional reprint of Into the Roil, just in case you want more than 4 copies of that effect.

[Mr. Safety]

Rough List

4x Black Vise
4x Standstill
4x Winter Orb
3x Artificer's Intuition
4x Ponder
4x Stifle
4x Daze
4x Aether Spellbomb
1x Pithing Needle
4x Remand
2x Counterspell
2x Spell Pierce
4x Wasteland
1x Academy Ruins
1x Seat of the Synod
1x Tolaria West
13x Island


Sideboard is going to have some number of Arcane Laboratory, Dismember, Echoing Truth, maybe a Jace. Need to see if this even does what I want first. Also debating Brainstorm over Ponder (I can put in 4 fetches and have plenty of shuffle effects with AIntuition) but I can't really fit in more than 4 cantrips, and Ponder is better as a standalone cantrip than Brainstorm, just because it gives 4 potential looks on its own. Standstill should do a fine job of feeding me cards as well, and if not...die to Vise!

[ronco]

Its a little mana hungry, but Icy Manipulator could help for when they do sneak in threats (and its a poor mans Port and helps with 1 sided winter orb-ness).

Might be a little too cute but its a classic combo!

[Mr. Safety]

Trust me, I've been thinking about including Icy Manipulator...but as you say, too expensive. If I can reasonably keep them off 2 mana I can try Isochron Scepter and something like Boomerang/Gigadrowse/Remand synergies (along with Arcane lab would be excellent.) I would want to do Scepter/Chant at that point, and well, who needs that other bullshit when you win by locking them out of the game with Scepter? A set of Factories would do the trick at that point and Black Vise isn't needed. The allure of Black Vise is how fast it can be early and how a soft lock can make it a reasonable way to win (rather than a hard lock.)

Also looking at Tangle Wire.

[ronco]

My tangles just came in the mail yesterday, oddly enough. I don't know they will make the cut but they are a nice to have for a rainy day. Academy ruins is probably going to be a sure thing for mine. Just need to, you know, get it/them.

If you feel like splashing white, suppression field is mean to fetches among other things. And it has a high mana cost but Frozen Aether is the blue kismet.

[Mr. Safety]

The idea is to land a Vise, then lock them under Winter Orb/Tangle Wire so they can't play spells. Let vise do it's thing and win. I really feel that Standstill supports the plan in a huge way, either by giving me extra cards, stopping my opponent from playing spells, or giving the opponent extra cards to kill them with Vise. All-around I think it's the correct approach.

I was also wondering if it should go big mana, like with Cloudpost. That would let my one land untapping give me some gas. It would support Icy Manipulator and maybe something scarier like Sundering Titan. It's a thought, not sure it's good. The choice comes down to making efficient card choices vs. ramp to get the exact effect I want but higher up on the mana scale.

[ronco]

I don't think this fits in your deck at all, but I just came across Teferi's Response. If only it was more general it would be a kick ass stifle!

[Mr. Safety]

There are so many cards with exciting potential lying hidden. I mean, Predict used to be a card that was only used as a 1-of in some versions of Doomsday. Now it's a staple in Miracles. I think for this deck, Standstill is the nuts though. Strangle their mana with Orb/Wire/Wasteland/Stifle and make them desperate to crack Standstill.

I was going to actually try Icy Manipulator...but I think curving Orb into Tangle Wire does the job just fine. They can untap one land in the untap step, then the upkeep trigger of Wire happens. Hell, it makes Wire better for longer. Usually by the time Tangle Wire has only 1 counter it isn't very useful.

Other cards I might considering using:
Gigadrowse
Exhaustion
Mana Vapors

[ronco]

Do you trade online at all? I may have some phyrexian dreadnaughts available.

[Mr. Safety]

PM sent.

[Mr. Safety]

Debating a red splash for this deck, for a couple reasons:

1) Blood Moon
2) Lightning Bolt
3) Pyroblast/REB in sideboard

So I figured that Blood Moon may be simply better than Winter Orb at stalling my opponents. I don't have acceleration, and maybe I don't need it with Wasteland/Stifle. T3 is just fine. I could also work in some number of Lotus Petal to make it faster as well. The whole idea is to keep them from playing cards so Vise can do it's thing, or shut off removal with counterspells so Dreadnought can attack for 2 turns.

Theoretical red-splashed list (no Volcanics/Forces, remember, this is in the budget/casual category):

4x Black Vise
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought

4x Lotus Petal
4x Stifle
4x Daze
3x Blood Moon
4x Standstill
2x Counterspell
2x Spell Pierce
4x Brainstorm
2x Ponder
4x Lightning Bolt

4x Wasteland
3x Scalding Tarn
1x Flooded Strand
1x Steam Vents
9x Island
1x Mountain

Sideboard
3x Misdirection
3x Pyroblast
2x Echoing Truth
1x Vendilion Clique
2x Smash to Smithereens
2x Pyroclasm
2x Tormod's Crypt


No Force of Wills...but I think with acceleration like Lotus Petal I can have Counterspell available earlier. I might consider Simian Spirit Guide instead of Petal (instant speed) but I may need blue occasionally. The alternative attack power of SSG is minimal when I'm really trying to get 'em with Dread/Vise.

For the all-blue version I think I will have to drop in a Mishra's Factory, maybe put in a Tolaria West to tutor Factory/Ruins. I also think playing more than 4x Stifle for Drednought might be smart. Torpor Orb comes to mind. I also really want to squeeze in Trinket Mages, but that's going pretty deep when I am playing BStorm/Ponder and sets of both Vise and Dread.

[ronco]

IF you go with a white splash tocatli honor guard I think would be an option. Also gives you access to artifact tutors (which blue has a decent amount of anyway) and standard white removal. Tezzeret the seeker can fetch a vise or dreadnought as well, but 5 mana might be a tough one.

Also, if you go with additional creatures, this just got spoiled, a 2 mana clone effect.
http://mythicspoiler.com/m19/cards/metamorphicalteration1.jpg

Although as mentioned all the moon effects/LD from red (and grim lavamancer) could be nice under a standstill/vise.

Another new one for, I assume, depths/wastelands:
http://mythicspoiler.com/m19/cards/alpinemoon1.jpg

or this. I don't know about any one else, but I feel like there are a lot of cool toys in the new core set. use the vise to hit them in combat and deal damage on their upkeep! haha.
http://mythicspoiler.com/m19/cards/skilledanimator.jpg

[Mr. Safety]

Interesting Cards for sure. I was thinking that Dismember should be fine for removal and that the bolts/blood moons are probably unnecessary. I like that Winter Orb can lock down my opponent for a few turns and then I can smash face with it for 5 with animator, or with Vise if it becomes obsolete. However, there was already Giant Scissors (Ensoul Artifact) so I don't think I need this artificer. Focus on Vise to drain or Dreadnought for fast beats. My alternative plan has now become a couple copies of Mishra's Factory.

New list:

4x Black Vise
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
1x Nimble Obstructionist
4x Standstill
4x Stifle
4x Daze
4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
2x Spell Pierce
3x Counterspell
3x Winter Orb
3x Dismember
4x Wasteland
2x Mishra’s Factory
3x Scalding Tarn
1x Flooded Strand
11x Island

Sideboard
1x Vendilion Clique
4x Misdirection
2x Dispel
2x Pact of Negation
3x Echoing Truth
3x Tormod’s Crypt

I really like the idea of Pat of Negation with Stifle, but it's probably too risky. It gives my Stifles more targets if I'm facing a matchup where they aren't good at knocking fecthlands (which is rare.) Death and Taxes still has plenty of targets for stifle (SFM, Flickerwisp, Vial, equips) so the land hate isn't good but the card is still great at messing them up. It's also really good against other non-fetch decks like Depths because it can stifle their combo, both Hexmage and Depths. I can also Stifle Needle triggers, lol. Storm straight up loses to stifle anyways, lol. So maybe Pact of Negation is too cute, and just unnecessary. Maybe some Ratchet Bombs instead, or Pithing Needles.

EDIT: I'm sorely tempted to play Gitaxian Probe + Pithing Needle to further screw over fetchlands, which allows my Stifles to work with Dreadnought. Wasteland + Stifle+ Needle naming your fetches? Seems quite good, if only in magical Christmasland.

[Mr. Safety]

Hey, did you get the cards?

[ronco]

They are out for delivery today, I'll update after I get home from work. My comment in the PM about your mail times was the fact it said my shipment to you delivered around 1pm. mine never gets delivered (into my mail box) until 430 or so.

Maybe its too slow, but would adding sorcerous spyglass be worth it for pithing needle 5-8?

[Mr. Safety]

They are out for delivery today, I'll update after I get home from work. My comment in the PM about your mail times was the fact it said my shipment to you delivered around 1pm. mine never gets delivered (into my mail box) until 430 or so.

Maybe its too slow, but would adding sorcerous spyglass be worth it for pithing needle 5-8?

If I wanted to go deep, yes. It's very good because it also sees their hand in one shot. Honestly, it's probably better than Probe + Needle because that takes up 8 slots and Spyglass takes up 4. Good catch, I'll have to nab a set and test.

[Mr. Safety]

I think I might have to drop the Vise idea and go with Delvers. It's just better on so many levels. It would be great to break vise, but this won't do it.

[Mr. Safety]

I've been messing around with some lists, and I think I've arrived at a point where I know what I want the deck to do:

1) Utilize mana-denial via Stifle/Wasteland
2) Recur artifacts with Academy Ruins (Spellbombs, Crypt, etc.)
3) Have a toolbox/tutor engine (Artificer's Intuition)
4) Utilize Ghirapur Aether Grid (this is the missing piece of the puzzle for me, it allows Vises to do work after they don't trigger)

So without further ado, here is the list:

4x Black Vise
4x Aether Spellbomb
4x Pyrite Spellbomb
1x Pithing Needle
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Expedition Map
3x Artificer's Intuition
3x Ghirapur Aether Grid
4x Brainstorm
4x Stifle
1x Trickbind
3x Shrapnel Blast
2x Counterspell
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3x Scalding Tarn
2x Flooded Strand
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Steam Vents
2x Spirebluff Canal
3x Island
1x Mountain
1x Seat of the Synod
1x Great Furnace
4x Wasteland
2x Academy Ruins
2x Mishra's Factory
1x Tolaria West

Sideboard
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Dispel
2x Pyroblast
3x Pyroclasm
2x Abrade
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought



This is uber janky, and uber budget (for legacy standards.) I ended up cutting Standstill because I want AI to be the engine. Sideboard could have aton of easily splashed things.

[FTW]

Where are your Back to Basics? That's the easiest way to hate out expensive manabases with monoblue. Combined with any kind of cards taxing their spells or attacks, you can support Black Vise as a kill condition.

Are you avoiding Back to Basics because this is budget casual and your opponents won't have expensive manabases? If so, Stifle+Snapcaster may not be that good either.

Ways to tax the opponent's mana and clog their hand while Vise Kills them:


Propaganda
Trinisphere
Mana Breach
Overburden
Jace Beleren
Back to Basics
Lodestone Golem
Engulf the Shores
Pendrell Mists

[Mr. Safety]

Where are your Back to Basics? That's the easiest way to hate out expensive manabases with monoblue. Combined with any kind of cards taxing their spells or attacks, you can support Black Vise as a kill condition.

Are you avoiding Back to Basics because this is budget casual and your opponents won't have expensive manabases? If so, Stifle+Snapcaster may not be that good either.

Ways to tax the opponent's mana and clog their hand while Vise Kills them:


Propaganda
Trinisphere
Mana Breach
Overburden
Jace Beleren
Back to Basics
Lodestone Golem
Engulf the Shores
Pendrell Mists


Just saw this post, thanks for that. I do intend to get some BtB's, especially now that they are reprinted. Lodestone seems pretty cool as well.

[GrimoirePath]

Just saw this post, thanks for that. I do intend to get some BtB's, especially now that they are reprinted. Lodestone seems pretty cool as well.

I like your list. Vise was always a fave of mine, though I see you are working away from it. If you went back to mono blue, you could try Vedalken Certarch (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=208257) if you did an artifact heavy build with Seat of the Synod and Mox Opal. You could also try adding standstills. I like Snapcasters here too.

You could also try Arcane Denial as a Counterspell. They get the option to draw during following upkeep, which they may want to avoid if you have a vise lock going, plus you get to draw as well.

Have you thought about Rishadan Ports for control?

—edit—

Remand is better than Arcane Denial here. I quickly threw this list together. Vault skirge is for a turn one artifact, minor threat, that can help with metal craft for Certarch and Opal. Wastes and ports help lock down opponent, as does certarch, who you can use to tap lands during their upkeep.


4 vise
4 mox opal
4 force of will
4 stifle
4 brainstorm
4 vedalken certarch
4 vault skirge
2 snapcaster mage
2 standstill
2 JTMS
4 ponder
2 remand

4 seat of synod
4 rishandan port
4 wasteland
2 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
6 island

[JackaBo]

I've been messing around with some lists, and I think I've arrived at a point where I know what I want the deck to do:

1) Utilize mana-denial via Stifle/Wasteland
2) Recur artifacts with Academy Ruins (Spellbombs, Crypt, etc.)
3) Have a toolbox/tutor engine (Artificer's Intuition)
4) Utilize Ghirapur Aether Grid (this is the missing piece of the puzzle for me, it allows Vises to do work after they don't trigger)

So without further ado, here is the list:

4x Black Vise
4x Aether Spellbomb
4x Pyrite Spellbomb
1x Pithing Needle
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Expedition Map
3x Artificer's Intuition
3x Ghirapur Aether Grid
4x Brainstorm
4x Stifle
1x Trickbind
3x Shrapnel Blast
2x Counterspell
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3x Scalding Tarn
2x Flooded Strand
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Steam Vents
2x Spirebluff Canal
3x Island
1x Mountain
1x Seat of the Synod
1x Great Furnace
4x Wasteland
2x Academy Ruins
2x Mishra's Factory
1x Tolaria West

Sideboard
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Dispel
2x Pyroblast
3x Pyroclasm
2x Abrade
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought



This is uber janky, and uber budget (for legacy standards.) I ended up cutting Standstill because I want AI to be the engine. Sideboard could have aton of easily splashed things.

This SCREAMS for winter orb. Do you know how good it is with Aether Grid? And with black vise?
With a real mana base you could also run daze. Its also great with vise since they will be anxious to empty their hand -> play into daze. Not to mention its awesome with winter orb.
With less artifacts and more spells you could run delver as vise 5-8.
I know were leaving jank territory here but i believe vise delver could be a thing.

[Mr. Safety]

Yeah, I had Winter Orb in earlier versions, but it had non-synergy with Mishra's Factory. I definitely like the idea of Winter Orb. I think I would want some sort of artifact mana to feed the engine though (because lands won't untap.)

I also picked up a Crucible of Worlds and a 2nd Jace. There could be something here...

[H]

Yeah, I had Winter Orb in earlier versions, but it had non-synergy with Mishra's Factory. I definitely like the idea of Winter Orb. I think I would want some sort of artifact mana to feed the engine though (because lands won't untap.)

I also picked up a Crucible of Worlds and a 2nd Jace. There could be something here...

Well, if you have Vice, Winter Orb, Crucibles, and Artifact Mana, it makes me wonder if Vedalken Certarch should actually be considered. It can not only tap down opponent's lands to deny mana, it can tap Orb to let you untap as well.

[JackaBo]

Well, if you have Vice, Winter Orb, Crucibles, and Artifact Mana, it makes me wonder if Vedalken Certarch should actually be considered. It can not only tap down opponent's lands to deny mana, it can tap Orb to let you untap as well.Vedalken CertarchVedalken CertarchVedalken Certarch

You can tap Winter Orb with Aether Grid! Then you get to untap!

[Mr. Safety]

You can tap Winter Orb with Aether Grid! Then you get to untap!

However, so does my opponent, right? I like that it can untap Orb, but then I'm breaking my own lock.

I'm really thinking of something like Winter Orb + Tangle Wire, maybe artifact mana like Mind Stone. The 1-drops are to cover turns 1-2 so I can land a standstill. Even Aether Spellbomb is decent at bouncing their first threat EOT, then landing a Standstill.

I'm thinking of building around this core:

Black Vise
Winter Orb
Tangle Wire
Standstill
Pyrite Spellbomb
Ghirapur Aether Grid
Academy Ruins
Wasteland
Mishra's Factory

If I quad-laser it the spells that's 24 slots (will probably only play 2 Ruins.) I think I'll want a minimum 23-24 lands (because of Wasteland and some number of Mishra's Factory.) For discussion's sake that's 48 slots, leaving 12 open.

I already know I don't want Chalice because the point of the deck is Vise. I'm not sure at this point whether to play some reactive spells like counterspells and removal or to just go all-in on a prison theme and start jamming more card draw (Thirst for Knowledge, Ponder, etc.) to add to Brainstorm/Standstill. I'm also very conscious of the fact that I will probably need a set of Force of Will to protect the lock pieces and answer things that get in under the lock (like Reanimator, Storm, and other fast decks.)

[JackaBo]

You tap WO at opponents endstep. With a tapped WO you are allowed to untap your lands and the WO - making it tax your opponent in his untap phase.
Tappning it in your own upkeep (i.e with tangor wire) is ill advised. Then it will be tapped on your opponents untap phase and be turned off.
The key here is tapping it after opponents untap phase, essentially.

[Mr. Safety]

You tap WO at opponents endstep. With a tapped WO you are allowed to untap your lands and the WO - making it tax your opponent in his untap phase.
Tappning it in your own upkeep (i.e with tangor wire) is ill advised. Then it will be tapped on your opponents untap phase and be turned off.
The key here is tapping it after opponents untap phase, essentially.

Gotcha, that seems pretty decent to me. At this point do I dig deeper and play Ports? I don't have them, but I can get them without too much trouble.

[GrimoirePath]

I put together the list I posted above and have been goldfishing it. I have since pulled the Ports and the Vault Skirges. I have added two Darksteel Citadel (to make sure I hit metalcraft) and I have added 3 Aether Spellbombs. I pulled the snapcasters to put in something that ca do more damage, and tried playing with the Thing In Ice for a bit, but it was too slow, so I slipped in some True Name Nemesis. Added a Winter orb which can be great, but finding the right number of them will take testing. Four is too many. One to two seem ideal.

Certarch can actually be really cool, but is weak to removal. I considered spellskite to protect it.

Edit: forgot to mention that Standstill is very cool here. If you have a vise (or two, or three!) and they have four cards in hand, you can pull moves like casting a spell into your own standstill to hit them for lethal.

[Mr. Safety]

Edit: forgot to mention that Standstill is very cool here. If you have a vise (or two, or three!) and they have four cards in hand, you can pull moves like casting a spell into your own standstill to hit them for lethal.

Now you're talking!!!

[FTW]

If you have Winter Orb and Black Vise, +4 Mox Opal and maybe +2 Chrome Mox or Mox Diamond. Easy mana to cheat around Winter Orb.


This looks like a good start:


4 Mox Opal
4 Brainstorm
4 Vedalken Cetarch
4 Black Vise
4 Winter Orb
4 Standstill
4 Tangle Wire
4 Trinket Mage
3 Ghirapur Aether Grid

2 Academy Ruins
4 Wasteland
3 Seat of the Synod
1 Great Furnace
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
2 Volcanic Island
2 Island

[Mr. Safety]

If you have Winter Orb and Black Vise, +4 Mox Opal and maybe +2 Chrome Mox or Mox Diamond. Easy mana to cheat around Winter Orb.


This looks like a good start:


4 Mox Opal
4 Brainstorm
4 Vedalken Cetarch
4 Black Vise
4 Winter Orb
4 Standstill
4 Tangle Wire
4 Trinket Mage
3 Ghirapur Aether Grid

2 Academy Ruins
4 Wasteland
3 Seat of the Synod
1 Great Furnace
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
2 Volcanic Island
2 Island


Cool list! I'll plug it into Workstation and try it out. I'm not sold on the Trinket Mages but I'll try it as-is and get some feedback. I have a gauntlet of Sneak/Show, Grixis Delver, D&T, Stoneblade, Burn, and Miracles loaded all the time to test against.

Another card I'm looking at is Runeflare Trap as additional ways to 'combo' with Black Vise/Standstill. I'm essentially trying to put together a prison-esque version of Owling Mine.

[FTW]

Cool list! I'll plug it into Workstation and try it out. I'm not sold on the Trinket Mages but I'll try it as-is and get some feedback. I have a gauntlet of Sneak/Show, Grixis Delver, D&T, Stoneblade, Burn, and Miracles loaded all the time to test against.


Hope you didn't plug it in yet. It's not 60 cards. I just took the shell you started with and added a few cards, but there are still more slots.

Trinket Mage is to get Vise. I can't imagine how bad this deck is if you don't have Vise in the opener. It's really slow (turn 4 Vise?), but I couldn't think of another way to dig for Vise if you don't open with one. Trinket also finds Vise #2 or gets Mox Opal, artifact lands, and possible singleton utility like Aether Spellbomb, Pyrite Spellbomb, Relic of Progenitus, Pithing Needle, Engineered Explosives, Meekstone.

Actually the deck may want some MD Meekstone because that card does a lot of work with Tangle Wire and Winter Orb (they'll be forced to tap a creature on upkeep, due to lack of untapped lands, and it never untaps again). Shuts down flipped Delver, Goyf, TKS, Angler, TNN, and so many other fat threats. Propaganda SB may also be strong against aggro.

[GrimoirePath]

It might make sense to pack two The Rack. Black Vise’s power is in the opener. As the game progresses, certain decks (like lands) can easily drop their entire hands. The Rack would hit them on that side. Trinket mage could find it, and should probably be a four of. But then again, I feel like an Umezawas Jitte one of would be really powerful in certain matchups (infect, for instance) and Fabricate could fetch it where Trinket mages couldnt. Fabricate can get any artifact you want, but you dont get the 2/2 body.

Fabricate as a four of with one The Rack, one Meekstone, one Jitte, and one Winter Orb might help get whatever you need. I like TNN as the beater in the deck, which meekstone would hinder, unless you use Certarch to tap the meekstone (as it can do the winter orb) so you can untap. Certarch and meekstone also have synergy as you can tap down your OP’s 3 power creatures.

The 3cmc of Fabricate is a bit steep, but with Mox Opal this should be pretty reliably a turn two play.

[FTW]

Hmm... due to the number of 3 cmc plays and colorless artifacts, maybe some Sol Lands are in order?

No Jittes here because there's nothing to equip. Equipping Mishra's Factory is too mana hungry for a deck with Tangle Wire + Winter Orb.



//Lands: 20
1 City of Traitors
2 Ancient Tomb
2 Academy Ruins
4 Wasteland
4 Seat of the Synod
7 Island

//Artifacts: 19
4 Mox Opal
4 Black Vise
4 Winter Orb
4 Tangle Wire
1 Meekstone
1 Aether Spellbomb
1 The Rack

//Creatures: 4
4 Vedalken Certarch

//Spells: 17
4 Force of Will
4 Preordain
4 Standstill
4 Fabricate
1 Thoughtcast

//Sideboard: 15
3 Back to Basics
2 Propaganda
2 Echoing Truth
2 Arcane Denial
2 Trinisphere
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Spellskite

[Mr. Safety]

Sol Lands are definitely on my mind, probably a set of Ancient Tomb. At the very least doubling up on t1 Vise seems good.

Regarding t4 Vise, it would have to 'combo' with Standstill at that point. I would have to chain vises and Standstills together to combo kill. Just using dead vises to turn on Ghirapur Aether Grid is part of plan B anyways. Grid allows for some pretty good tap-out turns with Tangle Wire because I can deal 2-3 damage and clear creatures or go to the face in response to the upkeep triggers. Earlier versions used 3-4 Shrapnel Blast to keep them relevant, which makes for a fast clock and decent removal (kills Angler.)

[GrimoirePath]

The list Im tinkering with has a playset of True Name Nemesis, and that is what I equip with the Jitte. I actually am thinking of lowering the aether spellbombs and increasing the number of pithing needles. I am also toying with the idea of putting in a set of aether vials. Vial on three gets you TNN and Trinket Mage. Vial increases artifact count for metal craft too.

Basically, relying in Vise to kill is a pretty bad. It can be great at hitting for upwards of ten life early in the game, but I find I need help with the finisher. Thats why I have the TNN’s. Maybe Tezzeret the Seeker? But I am partial to Jace for his ability to not only close again, but to fix your draws and bounce their threats. Either way, TNN and Meekstone definitely nonbo unless Certarch is in play, so i see how that could be questionable.

Edit:

Current list is this, as i play with tombs and vials.


4 vise
4 mox opal
4 Aether vial
4 force
2 winter orb
1 jitte
3 pithing needle
4 brainstorm
3 True Name Nemesis
4 Stifle
2 JTMS
3 Trinket Mage
2 Aether Spellbomb

4 Ancient tomb
4 seat of synod
4 wasteland
2 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
4 island

[GrimoirePath]

So my last post was a mess. Sorry. I actually just played around with this a lot, and finally found something i liked.

Went back to the core of Vise, Stifle, Winter Orb, and Certarch. What I am realy liking is a playset of sphere of resistance. So i got rid of the TNNs and Jitte and threw in 2 mishras factory. I landed at this, and its playing well:

Spell

4 Black Vise
4 FoW
4 Mox Opal
4 brainstorm
4 sphere of resistance
3 Aether Spellbomb
3 ponder
2 winter orb
2 JTMS
2 stifle
2 standstill
1 meekstone

Land

4 seat of the synod
4 ancient tomb
4 wasteland
2 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
2 island
1 darksteel citadel

[Mr. Safety]

So my last post was a mess. Sorry. I actually just played around with this a lot, and finally found something i liked.

Went back to the core of Vise, Stifle, Winter Orb, and Certarch. What I am realy liking is a playset of sphere of resistance. So i got rid of the TNNs and Jitte and threw in 2 mishras factory. I landed at this, and its playing well:

Spell

4 Black Vise
4 FoW
4 Mox Opal
4 brainstorm
4 sphere of resistance
3 Aether Spellbomb
3 ponder
2 winter orb
2 JTMS
2 stifle
2 standstill
1 meekstone

Land

4 seat of the synod
4 ancient tomb
4 wasteland
2 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
2 island
1 darksteel citadel

I'm thinking lodestone golem.

[Mr. Safety]

Added Ancient Tombs and Lodestone Golems. Golem is a lock piece but also a threat, so I like it quite a bit. It's missing Brainstorms, but I don't have a ton of shuffle effects, not once the artifact lands got added which are necessary. The artifact lands feed Intuition and Grid.


4x Vedalken Certarch
4x Lodestone Golem
3x Winter Orb
4x Tangle Wire
4x Standstill
3x Artificer's Intuition
4x Pyrite Spellbomb
1x Aether Spellbomb
1x Engineered Explosives
3x Ghirapur Aether Grid
4x Stifle
2x Force of Will
2x Spell Pierce

4x Ancient Tomb
4x Wasteland
2x Academy Ruins
3x Scalding Tarn
2x Steam Vents
1x Island
4x Seat of the Synod
1x Great Furnace

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Added Ancient Tombs and Lodestone Golems. Golem is a lock piece but also a threat, so I like it quite a bit. It's missing Brainstorms, but I don't have a ton of shuffle effects, not once the artifact lands got added which are necessary. The artifact lands feed Intuition and Grid.


4x Vedalken Certarch
4x Lodestone Golem
3x Winter Orb
4x Tangle Wire
4x Standstill
3x Artificer's Intuition
4x Pyrite Spellbomb
1x Aether Spellbomb
1x Engineered Explosives
3x Ghirapur Aether Grid
4x Stifle
2x Force of Will
2x Spell Pierce

4x Ancient Tomb
4x Wasteland
2x Academy Ruins
3x Scalding Tarn
2x Steam Vents
1x Island
4x Seat of the Synod
1x Great Furnace
Ditching the Vises?!?

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[Mr. Safety]

That was 100% a mistake, lol. I forgot! Probably have to cut the counterspells at this point to get the vises back in.

[Mr. Safety]

Tinkering around with something here again, now that I have the set of Forces. I think I will try and do a landstill type of deck with artifact lands and Ghirapur Aether Grid as my grinding plan. I don't think Vise fits this strategy, but I think Grid + artifact lands + spellbombs + Academy Ruins will be deliciously frustrating for my opponents. Honestly, recurring spellbombs and using Grid for direct damage should turn the corner pretty quickly.

4x Pyrite Spellbomb
4x Aether Spellbomb
1x Retrofitter's Foundry
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Pithing Needle
1x Tormod's Crypt
3x Artificer's Intuition
3x Ghirapur Aether Grid
1x Crucible of Worlds
4x Standstill
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
2x Spell Pierce
2x Shrapnel Blast
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3x Scalding Tarn
2x Steam Vents
3x Island
1x Mountain
4x Seat of the Synod
2x Great Furnace
3x Wasteland
3x mishra's factory
2x academy ruins

[ronco]

Is academy ruins in the deck? I was about to post that there was a land that brought artifacts back, then saw you talked about it in the comment but didnt have it in the list.

[Mr. Safety]

I forgot to add it. Its there x2 now.

[Finn]

Winter Orb

Maybe its too cute.

[Mr. Safety]

Its been in and out of the list. The breaking point on Force is really close, the 3 slots i've used on orb push it out. Not sure how to solve the problem.

[ronco]

Thought on the new Ashiook? If you are having trouble finding room for Force, probably harder to find room for this but figured it would be on your radar for this deck.

Doesn't leave them down a land by surprise, but can buy you time in the process after the first one or two gets them.

[Mr. Safety]

It's an idea, for sure. The new (edit: not Narset) Saheeli looks pretty enticing as well. All the spellbombs trigger for tokens and copying the tokens into more spellbombs seems very fun.

EDIT: Might port this over to Modern; no Vises, but I still get Jace, Spellbombs, Saheeli, Ruins. Swap Standstill for Thirst for Knowledge.