[GRN] Guilds of Ravnica & [RNA] Ravnica Allegiance

[Barook]

Barook is correct about nicfit obviously great in a rector build.
That was actually a joke about terrible cards and the following comments how they fix into Staxx (or Nic Fit). :eyebrow:

[Mr. Safety]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dm5xXP7XcAAZ_TW.png:large

*include "goes into Nic Fit!" comment here"

It has Dr. Obvious synergy with Explorer, but I don't think it can make good use of a 4 mana enabler. Therapy and Tower are ideal, Diabolic Intent is rarely used anymore, and you can do fringe things like Liliana, the Last Hope and sac your Explorer that have significant impacts on the metagame. Playing it with Life from the Loam seems better, and I'm not sure that's good enough for even Bg pox. Maybe, I guess. In a straight Golgari shell of Nic Fit it might find a role, especially with Swagtusk. Seems like Nissa, Vital Force is still quite a bit stronger.

For modern I could see it in something grindy like Death Cloud. Kitchen Finks and Thragtusk are both pretty decent ways to create value with the first ability. The second ability is relevant, and the third seems pretty good in something with a lot of removal (like Death Cloud.) I could see Lilianas, Garruk Wildspeaker, new Vraska in a PW-heavy build of Death Cloud. Swamp Sakura-Tribe Elder for Viridian Emissary so the dies-and-gets-a-land clause works in your favor with the pw's.

[morgan_coke]

Vraska could be good in some kind of BUG Hatching Plans-style deck that actively wants to sacrifice its own permanents, but even with her present as an upgrade, I don't know that it's a very good card.

The black tutor would fit pretty well into a cycling deck as far as enabling it goes. Archfiend of Ifnir, Street Wraith, and Vile Infestation are all actually Legacy level playable in a cycling deck, but what black cards do you want to tutor? All the good cycling tutor targets are red, white, colorless, or green.

[Mr. Safety]

Vraska could be good in some kind of BUG Hatching Plans-style deck that actively wants to sacrifice its own permanents, but even with her present as an upgrade, I don't know that it's a very good card.

Strangleroot Geist and Geralf's Messenger!!! BaROOOOOOOken.

[H]

Strangleroot Geist and Geralf's Messenger!!! BaROOOOOOOken.

One of the guys in our playgroup literally only ever plays home brews, regardless of format. Most are bad, but some are sometimes surprisingly resilient. While we don't play Modern often at all, he came up with a mono-Black Zombies deck that he brought to Regionals a couple years ago. He was X-1 and in top 8 contention until taking the loss in the last round of swiss and missing on breakers (his first loss was round 1).

It used Geralf's Messenger to great effect and was wrecking people all day. It wouldn't surprise me if your idea wasn't terrible in Modern, honestly. Decidedly tier two, but having more legs than I think almost anyone would give it credit for.

[Barook]

http://mythicspoiler.com/grn/cards/golgarifindbroker.jpg

I wonder what pushes WotC to do those terrible mana requirements. It's an Elf, so Symbiote shenanigans would be great, but that mana requirements are terrible, especially with DRS gone.

[H]

I wonder what pushes WotC to do those terrible mana requirements.

I think it's the simplest way to print obviously good effects while ensuring the card isn't overly playable. In other words, its the lazy way to make playable cards...

[Ace/Homebrew]

I think it's the simplest way to print obviously good effects while ensuring the card isn't overly playable. In other words, its the lazy way to make playable cards...
Or Return to Theros 'devotion matters' plants. Or both... Probably both :rolleyes:

[H]

Or Return to Theros 'devotion matters' plants. Or both... Probably both :rolleyes:

But with three RtRtR sets in a row, how long would a Return to Theros even be Standard legal? I seriously don't even know and I can't really be bothered to calculate it. Feels like it would need at least an integral and maybe several remainders to figure out...

[Mr. Safety]

One of the guys in our playgroup literally only ever plays home brews, regardless of format. Most are bad, but some are sometimes surprisingly resilient. While we don't play Modern often at all, he came up with a mono-Black Zombies deck that he brought to Regionals a couple years ago. He was X-1 and in top 8 contention until taking the loss in the last round of swiss and missing on breakers (his first loss was round 1).

It used Geralf's Messenger to great effect and was wrecking people all day. It wouldn't surprise me if your idea wasn't terrible in Modern, honestly. Decidedly tier two, but having more legs than I think almost anyone would give it credit for.

At my LGS, I am that guy. I'm not typically super fringe, but it's never run-of-the-mill. I don't hesitate to use obscure cards to gain an edge, at least in information.

[Barook]

Or Return to Theros 'devotion matters' plants. Or both... Probably both :rolleyes:
Don't jinx it. Bringing back Elspeth from the Underworld to fight Phyrexians might very well be a future plot past the Ravnica Bolas final.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Don't jinx it.
Sorry! Here's what I meant to say:


Or Return to Shadowmoor Chroma plants. Or both... Probably both :rolleyes:

[morgan_coke]

http://mythicspoiler.com/grn/cards/golgarifindbroker.jpg

I wonder what pushes WotC to do those terrible mana requirements. It's an Elf, so Symbiote shenanigans would be great, but that mana requirements are terrible, especially with DRS gone.

So it's a worse Eternal Witness that gets +1/+3 in exchange for -1 +BB in the casting cost. Dunno, not super pumped for it.

EDIT: one theory on the more and more ridiculous casting costs is WotC is trying to cut back on the splashability of cards in light of just how stupid good fetch/dual manabases are.

EDIT2: wait wait wait wait, why is no one talking about MoulderHulk? That thing is Legacy playable AF.

Moulderhulk 7GB
Creature - Zombie Fungus
Uncommon
Undregrowth - costs 1 less for every critter in your yard
When ~this~ etb, put target land from your graveyard onto the battlefield
6/6

Like, that's huge, in the right deck, this is BG: wasteland something. Plus lots of other uses. Could fit into a Jund Hollow One shell really easily. Might also work well in a G/b 2G type shell. Tons of potential with this one. That ability is huge, as is the low cost and big body. Hmm, maybe in Slide?

[Ace/Homebrew]

Moulderhulk 7GB
Creature - Zombie Fungus
Uncommon
Undregrowth - costs 1 less for every critter in your yard
When ~this~ etb, put target land from your graveyard onto the battlefield
6/6
https://i.imgur.com/bjNXGgZ.png

Technically it's a Fungus Zombie...

[Barook]

EDIT2: wait wait wait wait, why is no one talking about MoulderHulk? That thing is Legacy playable AF.

Moulderhulk 7GB
Creature - Zombie Fungus
Uncommon
Undregrowth - costs 1 less for every critter in your yard
When ~this~ etb, put target land from your graveyard onto the battlefield
6/6

Like, that's huge, in the right deck, this is BG: wasteland something. Plus lots of other uses. Could fit into a Jund Hollow One shell really easily. Might also work well in a G/b 2G type shell. Tons of potential with this one. That ability is huge, as is the low cost and big body. Hmm, maybe in Slide?
Which deck puts enough creatures in the yard AND wants to play this? At least in Legacy? :b::g: for a 6/6 with card advantage is sexy, but the setup requirements are pretty step imho, unless you're playing something like Dredge. And then you're still dependent on the GY.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Which deck puts enough creatures in the yard AND wants to play this? At least in Legacy? :b::g: for a 6/6 with card advantage is sexy, but the setup requirements are pretty step imho, unless you're playing something like Dredge. And then you're still dependent on the GY.

BRB brewing up the world's fairest dredge deck.

[morgan_coke]

I think a Jund version of Hollow One absolutely wants Molderhulk. Zombardment and Vengevine also spring to mind.

[Fox]

I think a Jund version of Hollow One absolutely wants Molderhulk.

Loses to Ghoultree.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I think both decks would just prefer anglers.

[Barook]

http://mythicspoiler.com/grn/cards/invertinvent.jpg

Apparently, they forgot the "until end of turn" on Invert.

https://twitter.com/mtgaaron/status/1040007433874100224

Great quality control you got there, WotC.

[Cave]

As a sidenote, invent is a way to get Enter the Infinite via Cunning Wish.

[Poron]

If you can go Sorcery speed and have Cunning Wish around, then Eladamri’s Call into Emrakul is normally the same and occupies less slots.

[Cave]

If you can go Sorcery speed and have Cunning Wish around, then Eladamri’s Call into Emrakul is normally the same and occupies less slots.
You could always use invent to get both Cunning Wish and Enter the Infinite, then cast your second cunning wish for whatever it takes to solve any problem you have on the stack or board (Trickbind or some bounce spell) and then go sorcery. :laugh:

[Cire]

https://i.imgur.com/nnH75wY.png

That's a weird P/T for a red card :confused:. Other than that - probably too expensive to play with the free spells.

[BenBleiweiss]

https://i.redd.it/6dm2dbdeo0m11.png

[Zllig]

https://i.redd.it/6dm2dbdeo0m11.png

That is pretty freaking sweet

[filln]

That's a weird P/T for a red card :confused:.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=525&type=card
:cool:

[PirateKing]

https://media.wizards.com/2018/grn/en_giztSiV1bc.png
Not to snipe from Ben, but in case that image link never comes back, here it is sourced from Wizard's themselves.

When is this better than Snapcaster Mage? Casting it without a target in mind seems bonkers, so the surveil isn't a big upside.

[Nouille]

This card is super nice indeed. The filtering effect before choosing the spell is sweet. Also, if I understand this correctly, it does not give flashback. So you can target force of will and pay it by pitching a blue card for instance. It won't fit in many deck because of the UU cost, but I do like the design overall.

[morgan_coke]

https://media.wizards.com/2018/grn/en_giztSiV1bc.png
Not to snipe from Ben, but in case that image link never comes back, here it is sourced from Wizard's themselves.

When is this better than Snapcaster Mage? Casting it without a target in mind seems bonkers, so the surveil isn't a big upside.

If you EoT it, then it sets up your next draw phase. Also dumps garbage put on top of library from Brainstorm into your yard. It's not a draw, so in Miracles you could use it to set up a Terminus by targeting a BS or something in your yard too.

Don't think I like the UU cc tho.

[Poron]

Surveil is good with Counterbalance, and that + Snapmage ability is sweet.

[BenBleiweiss]

https://i.redd.it/9oi3bvioz0m11.jpg

Dreadnought enabler?

[BenBleiweiss]

https://media.wizards.com/2018/grn/en_giztSiV1bc.png
Not to snipe from Ben, but in case that image link never comes back, here it is sourced from Wizard's themselves.

When is this better than Snapcaster Mage? Casting it without a target in mind seems bonkers, so the surveil isn't a big upside.

Another thing to note - it doesnt target (you choose on resolution), so unless your opponent completely nuked your graveyard, you'll get to cast something.

[Barook]

http://mythicspoiler.com/grn/cards/leagueguildmage.jpg

This card looks fantastic for grindy match-ups. Copying cantrips and cheap removal for 2 mana (if the card is 1 CMC). If you run out of gas, she can still draw cards.

[rufus]

...

When is this better than Snapcaster Mage? Casting it without a target in mind seems bonkers, so the surveil isn't a big upside.

No, but it's cute vs things like ravenous trap. The card is mostly a bad Regrowth so odds are it won't see legacy play, but it's a fun design. At 1U people would probably experiment with it in and Increasing Vengeance modern storm.

[Kanti]

http://mythicspoiler.com/grn/cards/golgarifindbroker.jpg

I wonder what pushes WotC to do those terrible mana requirements. It's an Elf, so Symbiote shenanigans would be great, but that mana requirements are terrible, especially with DRS gone.

Blue. People complain about Delve, and about DRS being splashed in U decks, well here is literally one of the only solutions. Even printing a card at UUU would make it very tough for a U deck to cast it. BBGG is definately not being splashed by anybody, but better safe than sorry.

Mission's Briefing looks schweet in like... Tide? Snapcaster might be better because of Snapcaster+Snap, and the ability to chump block, but the Surveil 2 is pretty nice. If Mission's Briefing cantripped it would be bonkers.

[rufus]

This has potential as a combo piece.



3BB
Doom Whisperer

Flying, trample

Pay 2 life: Surveil 2. (Look at the top two cards of your library. You may put any number of them into your graveyard and the rest on top of your library in any order.)
6/6


For example with Necrotic Ooze.

[mistercakes]

This has potential as a combo piece.



For example with Necrotic Ooze.

seems pretty cool if you could ever pair it with gitrog monster. (unlikely outside of EDH)

[Ace/Homebrew]

https://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/270/928/200/283/636724498318270838.png

Dreadnought enabler?
Meh, dies to Price of Fame. :tongue:

https://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/270/918/200/283/636724163575374909.jpeg

[Bithlord]

When is this better than Snapcaster Mage? Casting it without a target in mind seems bonkers, so the surveil isn't a big upside.

When they make it red, like snapcaster should have been all along. ./angry

[Cire]

https://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/169/494/636724571756003850.jpg

Sort of interesting uncommon. 2 mana, 3 power, and can get back a wasteland or something?

[Tittliewinks22]

https://media.wizards.com/2018/grn/en_giztSiV1bc.png
Not to snipe from Ben, but in case that image link never comes back, here it is sourced from Wizard's themselves.

When is this better than Snapcaster Mage? Casting it without a target in mind seems bonkers, so the surveil isn't a big upside.

Adds a ton of redundancy to high tide and omnitell. With dream halls out this card is insane.

In vintage it's even more insane making gifts ungiven piles and yawg Will's bananas, as well as gush.

[rufus]

Just because I'm curious:

If Lazav copies a Volrath's Shapeshifter which is on top of the graveyard, does it keep the X ability?

[Cire]

https://i.redd.it/9oi3bvioz0m11.jpg

Dreadnought enabler?

Does this work?

Lazav in play. Get Vector Asp and Phyrexian Dreadnaught into the grave. Pay 1 mana to turn Lazav into Asp. Pay B to use asp ability to grant infect. Pay 1 mana to turn into Dreadnaught. Does it keep infect?

Granted not the best combo, but just curious if it keeps the abilities between changes?

[H]

Does this work?

Lazav in play. Get Vector Asp and Phyrexian Dreadnaught into the grave. Pay 1 mana to turn Lazav into Asp. Pay B to use asp ability to grant infect. Pay 1 mana to turn into Dreadnaught. Does it keep infect?

Granted not the best combo, but just curious if it keeps the abilities between changes?

No, that wouldn't work.

The only reason the "related" combo in EDH works with Scion of the Ur-Dragon, is because you are giving it Infect last, while the abilities giving it a rise in power are already on the stack.

[rufus]

No, that wouldn't work.
...

It seems like it should work. Copy effects on layer 1, ability-adding effects on layer 6.

[H]

It seems like it should work. Copy effects on layer 1, ability-adding effects on layer 6.

Oops, my bad, I didn't bother to look up Vector Asp and thought it was a different card (i.e. had Infect as a static ability).

Yeah, if you activate Lazav's ability with the "Asp" ability is on the stack, it will work.

[NeckBird]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dm_4hCHXgAEnJlQ.png

Knight of Autumn 1GW
Creature - Dryad Knight
2/1
When ~ enters the battlefield, choose one-
-Put two +1/+1 counters on ~.
-Destroy target artifact or enchantment.
-You gain 4 life.

Pretty good card. Already Reclamation Sage stats, but now you can get an additional beater or can sustain against Burn, UR Delver. Probably replaces Rec Sage in Aggro Loam, Maverick, and Aluren.

[H]

Knight of Autumn 1GW
Creature - Dryad Knight
2/1
When ~ enters the battlefield, choose one-
-Put two +1/+1 counters on ~.
-Destroy target artifact or enchantment.
-You gain 4 life.

Pretty good card. Already Reclamation Sage stats, but now you can get an additional beater or can sustain against Burn, UR Delver. Probably replaces Rec Sage in Aggro Loam, Maverick, and Aluren.

Definitely a quality upgrade to Sage, so long as you aren't an Elves deck. Funny you mention Burn, but if you GSZ for this, you both don't get hit by an Eidolon trigger and you can blow up Eidolon. Very solid utility creature that isn't dead if you happen maindeck it.

[colo]

Aw man, couldn't they have printed this as "Human Knight" instead? Would have been such an awesome Recruiter of the Guard target in D&T (with Cavern of Souls).

[Dice_Box]

Aw man, couldn't they have printed this as "Human Knight" instead? Would have been such an awesome Recruiter of the Guard target in D&T (with Cavern of Souls).
The impact on Modern would have be massive.

[Kanti]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dm_4hCHXgAEnJlQ.png

Knight of Autumn 1GW
Creature - Dryad Knight
2/1
When ~ enters the battlefield, choose one-
-Put two +1/+1 counters on ~.
-Destroy target artifact or enchantment.
-You gain 4 life.

Pretty good card. Already Reclamation Sage stats, but now you can get an additional beater or can sustain against Burn, UR Delver. Probably replaces Rec Sage in Aggro Loam, Maverick, and Aluren.

As someone who has taken an interest in all things Fauna Shaman I am EXTREMELY PUMPED FOR RAVNICA!!!!!!!1!!!!1eleven!!!!!!11!!!1!! Cards like this are exactly why. Solid card, and I hope to see many more solid multi-colored cards coming out of the set.

[Fox]

Just a quick thing on Mission Briefing, an opponent can nuke your yard but then this spell will resolve putting up to two cards into the graveyard. There will be no window for the opponent to interact (unless they are the AP and have Extirpate) if you surveil'd a valid card type (I would say target, but it's chosen).

Really though, the only time this one is strictly better than Snapcaster is if you are trying to mill towards Surgical. All the cute tricks don't approach the power level of Kcomm recur SCM and JTMS -1 replay SCM.
---
The Lazav card isn't good enough for Dreadnought. When you talk about most UB strategies it has to be better than either Delver, JVP, Dark Confidant, Gurmag/Tasigur because those are the slots you have to cut from. Other direct competition from colorless 2 mana, noncreature enablers which fundamentally alter the rules (i.e. hurt other decks, increasing win %age). In many ways Lazav is just another printing of Varolz and Mimic. The card is going to be more at home in a deck which can Entomb/pseudo-Entomb, and probably has shenanigans like copy Goose to counter interaction.

[procobrito]

Doom Whisperer - 3BB - 6/6
Flying, trample

Pay 2 life: Surveil 2.*(Look at the top two cards of your library. You may put any number of them into your graveyard and the rest on top of your library in any order.)

Death's shadow +lake of dead reanimate?

[Echelon]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dm_4hCHXgAEnJlQ.png

Knight of Autumn 1GW
Creature - Dryad Knight
2/1
When ~ enters the battlefield, choose one-
-Put two +1/+1 counters on ~.
-Destroy target artifact or enchantment.
-You gain 4 life.

Pretty good card. Already Reclamation Sage stats, but now you can get an additional beater or can sustain against Burn, UR Delver. Probably replaces Rec Sage in Aggro Loam, Maverick, and Aluren.

And Nic Fit, for those builds that run it. So far this set has been pretty kind to BGW decks.

[Brainstorm Ape]

For better or worse, this set is pretty much shaping up to be RtR v2. It's an incredibly derivative* set with some cool individual cards.

Definitely shaping up to be one of the better sets in recent memory for Legacy, even if I'm 100% certain that most of the fun, powerful stuff will be in BUG colors.

*Shocks, Gates, Guildmages, Guild leaders at Mythic with champions at Rare...maybe there will even be a minor auras/Enchantments subtheme!

[Barook]

And Nic Fit, for those builds that run it. So far this set has been pretty kind to BGW decks.
Not too surprising, given that BG is the overall best combination with the strongest multicolor cards in general. GW is historically also on the stronger side of gold cards.

[Barook]

http://mythicspoiler.com/grn/cards/swiftbladevindicator1.jpg

That does seems kinda nifty, although I don't know any deck that would want it. Slapping some pump or equipment on it is huge, though.

[Ace/Homebrew]

I don't know any deck that would want it.
Probably Modern Humans? I don't know enough about the deck to suggest what they'd cut for it though.

[rufus]

http://mythicspoiler.com/grn/cards/swiftbladevindicator1.jpg

That does seems kinda nifty, although I don't know any deck that would want it. Slapping some pump or equipment on it is huge, though.

Boros Swiftblade revisited. Eventually there will be enough double strikers like this that you can make a bad "infect" deck with them.

[ReAnimator]

Boros Swiftblade revisited. Eventually there will be enough double strikers like this that you can make a bad "infect" deck with them.

And all Rav themed to boot, now i just have to wait for all rav block constructed to be a format.

http://static.starcitygames.com/sales/cardscans/MTG/RTR/en/nonfoil/FencingAce.jpghttp://static.starcitygames.com/sales/cardscans/MTG/RAV/en/nonfoil/BorosSwiftblade.jpghttps://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/169/504/636725120277068701.png

[PirateKing]

Wow I want Swiftblade Vindicator to be good.
I recall Kamigawa/Ravnica Standard equipping Jitte to Boros Swiftblade and thinking maybe Jitte is a bit OP.
This is that but much better. 4 Jitte counters on attack AND block? Sword of Fire and Ice on this thing triggering twice? Even if they block with an X/2?
In a world of KCommand it'll just be a dream, but man this thing is stacked to hold something.

[BenBleiweiss]

https://i.imgur.com/ayVhFxG.pngl

New toy for manaless dredge!

[ReAnimator]

New toy for manaless dredge!

I'm going to build up the worst Mesmeric Orb deck the world has ever seen!

4 x Basalt Monolith
4 x Mesmeric Orb
4 x Wake Thrasher
4 x This Card
4 x Narcomoeaba
1 x Cabal Therapy
1 x Dread Return
1 x Bridge from Below
1 x Flamekin Zealot
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Force of Will
4 x Ponder
4 x Thought Seize
20 x Lands

...

Broke it LOL

[LOLWut]

I don't see a Legacy deck wanting this, but an improved Consume the Meek:

https://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/270/964/636725328632056656.png

[morgan_coke]

I don't see a Legacy deck wanting this, but an improved Consume the Meek:

https://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/270/964/636725328632056656.png

Consume is an Instant. If you're running a bad niche wrath, I think that's still better.

[LOLWut]

Consume is an Instant. If you're running a bad niche wrath, I think that's still better.

I doubt Ritual of Soot will be played in Legacy outside of someone's FNM Demon Stompy sideboard, but I don't agree that Consume the Meek is better because it's an instant even though it costs 1 more mana. Look at the Legacy playability of Pyroclasm vs. Fiery Cannonade, to see the relative value of mana cost vs. instant speed.

[mistercakes]

https://i.imgur.com/ayVhFxG.pngl

New toy for manaless dredge!

Not sure if it's ever worth it, but intuition can deal 6 damage for u2 now.

Entomb is 3 damage for B.

[PirateKing]

I doubt Ritual of Soot will be played in Legacy outside of someone's FNM Demon Stompy sideboard, but I don't agree that Consume the Meek is better because it's an instant even though it costs 1 more mana. Look at the Legacy playability of Pyroclasm vs. Fiery Cannonade, to see the relative value of mana cost vs. instant speed.

Wait what? Kozilek's Return gets lots of play because it's an instant.

[mistercakes]

If it sees play, it might be because it kills through mother of runes.

[LOLWut]

Wait what? Kozilek's Return gets lots of play because it's an instant.

Wait what? You thought that Kozilek's Return's instant speed is the reason anyone plays it over Pyroclasm?

Hint: Compare its card text to that of the otherwise identical unplayed, also instant, Fiery Cannonade. Unless you think the difference is pirates.

[Dice_Box]

Wait what? You thought that Kozilek's Return's instant speed is the reason anyone plays it over Pyroclasm?
Also ignores Mother.

The art for that card, with the shadow on the wall. I like it. The card itself less so.

[PirateKing]

I donno, when it was in my Miracles sideboard I never felt bothered by D&T enough to bring it in, mom wasn't really a problem.
I mean comparing Kozilek's Return to Fiery Cannonade, sure Kozilek's Return does more, so play that, why not.
But it hardly wasn't BECAUSE of mom that it got played, it was because it was an Instant.

[Ace/Homebrew]

https://i.imgur.com/jerclPZ.png?1

[NeckBird]

https://i.imgur.com/jerclPZ.png?1

Is this better than Flame Kin Zealot in Dredge? At the least it acts as Ichorid fodder.

[Dice_Box]

I donno, when it was in my Miracles sideboard I never felt bothered by D&T enough to bring it in, mom wasn't really a problem.
I mean comparing Kozilek's Return to Fiery Cannonade, sure Kozilek's Return does more, so play that, why not.
But it hardly wasn't BECAUSE of mom that it got played, it was because it was an Instant.
In Lands we play it because it is good against DnT, to note, Mother. Cant speak for everyone else.

[Bithlord]

Is this better than Flame Kin Zealot in Dredge? At the least it acts as Ichorid fodder.

in my book it's "yet another of the myriad of dredge cards that will combo win you the game, but are all about the same". He'll see some play, I'm sure.

[compacta_d]

Koz return definitely because it's colorless and ignores mother of runes. That is specifically the reason why.

It also ignores other protection from red annoying things that people love to randomly jam into decks.

[morgan_coke]

The difference between 2 and 3 mana is much greater than the difference between 4 and 5. But they're all bad cards, so I'm not sure why this is relevant.

[mistercakes]

https://i.imgur.com/jerclPZ.png?1

Was mentioned on reddit but oops all spells looks like it has a 1 card win from dread return. (given that you are running street wraith and probably chancellor (white or green)

[rufus]

...
Entomb is 3 damage for B.

You could try that in burn with a toolbox of cards like Narcomoeba, Gaea's Blessing/Eldrazi Titan, ancient grudge or Ray of Revelation.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Other than rift sweeper anyone know a way to put cards from exile into the graveyard?
I'm thinking of that mesmeric orb monolith combo with creeping chill.

[(nameless one)]

Other than rift sweeper anyone know a way to put cards from exile into the graveyard?
I'm thinking of that mesmeric orb monolith combo with creeping chill.

Pull from Eternity

[morgan_coke]

Other than rift sweeper anyone know a way to put cards from exile into the graveyard?
I'm thinking of that mesmeric orb monolith combo with creeping chill.

if you're already running Mesmeric Orb, the Research half of Research//Development will put all four copies back into your deck, ready to be milled again.

[Ace/Homebrew]

if you're already running Mesmeric Orb, the Research half of Research//Development will put all four copies back into your deck, ready to be milled again.
You sure?



10/1/2009 A card “from outside the game” may be a card from your collection or a card from your sideboard. In tournament play, you can’t choose a card from your collection. The cards you choose don’t all have to come from the same place.
10/1/2009 The exile zone is a part of the game, so you can’t get exiled cards.

[mistercakes]

Correct, this is why you can't wish for a wish. (used to work)

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Correct, this is why you can't wish for a wish. (used to work)
Well yeah, everyone knows you can't wish for more wishes. But what they don't tell you is you can wish for more genie lamps.

[rufus]

Other than rift sweeper anyone know a way to put cards from exile into the graveyard?
I'm thinking of that mesmeric orb monolith combo with creeping chill.

Creeping chill requires "from your library into your graveyard" so if you're trying to recycle creeping chill that way it's not going to work.

I think it's Pull From Eternity,Riftsweeper and Mirror of Fate as cards that mess with 'generic' exiled cards.

[Barook]

While not outstanding, this looks pretty neat:

'Sprouting Renewal' 2G
Sorcery
Convoke
Choose One:
- Create a 2/2 green and white Elf Knight creature token with vigilance.
- Destroy target artifact or enchantment.

[Barook]

Sorry for the double post, but this one looks actually pretty interesting, especially considering how cheap everything is in Legacy:


"Nightsurveil Specter" :1::u::b:
Creature — Specter (Rare)
Flying
Whenever “Nightsurveil Specter” deals combat damage to a player, look at the top three cards of that player’s library, exile one of those cards face-down, then put the rest into that player’s graveyard. For as long as that card remains exiled, you may look at it, you may cast it, and you may spend mana as though it were mana of any color to cast it.
2/2

Apparently, you can cast the exiled card even after the Specter is gone.

Edit: Can you pay FoW's alternative casting cost if you steal it?

[Zulabnar]

While not outstanding, this looks pretty neat:

'Sprouting Renewal' 2G
Sorcery
Convoke
Choose One:
- Create a 2/2 green and white Elf Knight creature token with vigilance.
- Destroy target artifact or enchantment.

Reclamation sage seems far better to me

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Creeping chill requires "from your library into your graveyard" so if you're trying to recycle creeping chill that way it's not going to work.

I think it's Pull From Eternity,Riftsweeper and Mirror of Fate as cards that mess with 'generic' exiled cards.
Well mesmeric orb besalt monolith is a self-mill combo, and if you have an eldrazi Titan in your deck you get to do it an infinite number of times. So that will count and I'll get 12 lifeloss in. The trick then is getting them back into the yard so I can do infinite damage, and unlike the first four horseman combo, which is now illegal because of the non-zero chance you keep flipping emrakul before your reanimate Target this one just needs to keep milling itself.

[Dice_Box]

That new creature that deals 3 will make Hoursman better.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

That new creature that deals 3 will make Hoursman better.

There's a creature too?

[Dice_Box]

There's a creature too?
Sorry, spell.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Sorry, spell.

Right that's what I'm talking about. How to get from 12 that four copies of that spell can do to 20, what I need to close out a game.

[rufus]

...

Edit: Can you pay FoW's alternative casting cost if you steal it?

Yes.

[Barook]

Right that's what I'm talking about. How to get from 12 that four copies of that spell can do to 20, what I need to close out a game.
I don't think this strategy is viable until they print a similiar spell that allows you to reliably deal 20 total without having to jump through bullshit hoops.

[Watersaw]

Right that's what I'm talking about. How to get from 12 that four copies of that spell can do to 20, what I need to close out a game.

Memory's Journey?

[Megadeus]

Memory's Journey?

The problem is that the card in question exiles itself. The deck already plays emrakul to make the yard shuffle back in

[chezJacques]

Does it not work if you mill a Gaea's Blessing with the new spells and stack the triggers properly?

[Megadeus]

Does it not work if you mill a Gaea's Blessing with the new spells and stack the triggers properly?

Pretty sure if the card doesn't exile then it doesn't deal damage

[Watersaw]

The problem is that the card in question exiles itself. The deck already plays emrakul to make the yard shuffle back in

Oh wait it does? I can't read apparently, my bad. Thought we just needed a way avoid randomly shuffling too soon.

[rufus]

Well mesmeric orb besalt monolith is a self-mill combo, and if you have an eldrazi Titan in your deck you get to do it an infinite number of times. So that will count and I'll get 12 lifeloss in. The trick then is getting them back into the yard so I can do infinite damage, and unlike the first four horseman combo, which is now illegal because of the non-zero chance you keep flipping emrakul before your reanimate Target this one just needs to keep milling itself.

One approach would be to still use Narcomoeba/Dread Return and cash in the Creeping Chills as ways to get reshuffles. Lowering the opponent's life total is advancing the game state, right?

With Creeping Chill you can also run Flayer of the Hatebound as the dread return target instead of Sharuum the Hegemon/Blasting Station which makes the change to 'hit' 1/4 instead of 1/8.

[morgan_coke]

I mean, it's cool we're all coming up with ways to "recycle" Creeping Chill. In reality, doesn't just milling yourself a whole bunch, letting the Creeping Chill's go off, then Dread Returning Lotleth Giant via Narcomoeba's also give a 1 turn kill for a lot less effort once you've milled yourself out?

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Oh wait it does? I can't read apparently, my bad. Thought we just needed a way avoid randomly shuffling too soon.

That's not a problem either: you can respond to emrakul by milling the rest of your deck. The act of untapping the monolith is what Mills the card, you can then respond to any triggers by tapping again to make mana to untap. The problem is that without something like Mirror of Fate you only end up with at most 12 points, because the card exiles itself, and milling your deck multiple times doesn't do anything. This set has some mill triggers it's unlikely but possible we get another one to finish this combo.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I mean, it's cool we're all coming up with ways to "recycle" Creeping Chill. In reality, doesn't just milling yourself a whole bunch, letting the Creeping Chill's go off, then Dread Returning Lotleth Giant via Narcomoeba's also give a 1 turn kill for a lot less effort once you've milled yourself out?

Yes and no. The ipg doesn't exactly allow for combos that say "eventually I'll mill these cards in the specific order I need in order to win" which is unfortunately what happens with the old four horseman combo: yes eventually the deck will mill a dread return and a Target before an emrakul goes into the yard but there's no guarantee how many iterations that will take, making it stalling.
With this theoretical new plan you can say exactly how many iterations it will take.

[rufus]

Hmm... Chance at Glory is another instant-speed extra turn effect. That's something they basically did only once in the past with Final Fortune and now we have a bunch recently with Glorious End, Nexus of Fate and this card.

[mistercakes]

Hmm... Chance at Glory is another instant-speed extra turn effect. That's something they basically did only once in the past with Final Fortune and now we have a bunch recently with Glorious End, Nexus of Fate and this card.

there were 2 portal reprints with the same effect, maybe 3? can't recall. RR sorc, take another turn, die the following turn.

[Mr. Safety]

there were 2 portal reprints with the same effect, maybe 3? can't recall. RR sorc, take another turn, die the following turn.

Indestructable creatures means it's obviously a "fair" strategy card. Besides, just stifle that trigger...

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Indestructable creatures means it's obviously a "fair" strategy card. Besides, just stifle that trigger...

My friend, may I interest you in the ultimate "gotcha!" Sundial of the Infinite?

[rufus]

there were 2 portal reprints with the same effect, maybe 3? can't recall. RR sorc, take another turn, die the following turn.

Last Chance and Warrior's Oath.

The 'instant speed' part does make the cards stronger. For example they're better with Day's Undoing since you get to untap first with the fresh 7.

[Barook]

http://mythicspoiler.com/grn/cards/unmooredego.jpg

This is way better than Lost Legacy. It's worth noting that it can hit lands. That can be relevant vs Dark Depths (minor relevance) or remove Tron pieces in Modern (huge!).

[morgan_coke]

http://mythicspoiler.com/grn/cards/unmooredego.jpg

This is way better than Lost Legacy. It's worth noting that it can hit lands. That can be relevant vs Dark Depths (minor relevance) or remove Tron pieces in Modern (huge!).

Was just about to post that. The land thing is amazing. Just an unbelievably huge card for Modern, Tron, Valakut, etc. Worth noting that this can also hit Basic Lands, though only up to 4 copies. Taking out Wastelands and Dark Depths or Stages or Ports in Legacy is also an option, or Grove of the Burnwillows, etc. Strong sideboard card. An auto include in Modern I think if you have the colors for it, probably more niche in Legacy.

[Tittliewinks22]

https://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/271/25/636727922974423095.png

Giving all your spells pseudo-storm seems pretty good.

[Mr. Safety]

My friend, may I interest you in the ultimate "gotcha!" Sundial of the Infinite?

Sweet jesus I love janky shit. Sign me up.

[rufus]

Sweet jesus I love janky shit. Sign me up.

Don't forget Gideon of the Trials.

[Barook]

http://mythicspoiler.com/grn/cards/divinevisitation.jpg

I like this card alot, although it's most likely not Legacy-playable due to its price tag. There's alot of fuckery you can do with it. My favorite so far is probably Replenishing into this + Dovescape to turn all future spells into an army of Serra Angels while they most likely can't do shit about about it due to Dovescape. Or for the simple man, stuff like Lingering Spirits or Batterskull.

[morgan_coke]

http://mythicspoiler.com/grn/cards/divinevisitation.jpg

I like this card alot, although it's most likely not Legacy-playable due to its price tag. There's alot of fuckery you can do with it. My favorite so far is probably Replenishing into this + Dovescape to turn all future spells into an army of Serra Angels while they most likely can't do shit about about it due to Dovescape. Or for the simple man, stuff like Lingering Spirits or Batterskull.

So you're saying Enduring Ideal -> Dovescape -> This? Seems legit.

[rufus]

http://mythicspoiler.com/grn/cards/divinevisitation.jpg

I like this card alot, although it's most likely not Legacy-playable due to its price tag. There's alot of fuckery you can do with it. My favorite so far is probably Replenishing into this + Dovescape to turn all future spells into an army of Serra Angels while they most likely can't do shit about about it due to Dovescape. Or for the simple man, stuff like Lingering Spirits or Batterskull.

I wonder how that interacts with something like Geist of Saint Traft creates tokens which are tapped and attacking or have a triggered clause for "that token."

[Barook]

So you're saying Enduring Ideal -> Dovescape -> This? Seems legit.
Enduring Ideal doesn't let you cast any cards anymore, so that's a nonbo.

Edit: Oh boy, here comes the good shit:

https://i.redd.it/xhkazatcsum11.png

Summary of textbox:

Reach
Undergrowth - ETB +X/0 until EOT
ETB may fight target creature with flying you don't control.

GSZ-able Delver Killer. Killing Griseldaddy and the likes might be a strech, though.

[square_two]

Enduring Ideal doesn't let you cast any cards anymore, so that's a nonbo.

I was thinking Bitterblossom. Go even deeper with Awakening Zone to help you cast the 5-drop.

Pretty similar to other 5+ cmc do-nothing enchantments. If you untap with it, congrats.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I wonder how that interacts with something like Geist of Saint Traft creates tokens which are tapped and attacking or have a triggered clause for "that token."

Those token are still created tapped, attacking, whatever. They're just also 4/4 flying vigilantes.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Enduring Ideal doesn't let you cast any cards anymore, so that's a nonbo.

Edit: Oh boy, here comes the good shit:

https://i.redd.it/xhkazatcsum11.png

Summary of textbox:


GSZ-able Delver Killer. Killing Griseldaddy and the likes might be a strech, though.

If that's why you're playing it Plummit will kill both.

[Barook]

If that's why you're playing it Plummit will kill both.
Plummet can neither beat in a pinch or is, more importantly, fetchable with GSZ. 4 GSZ + this gives you 5 ways to deal with a Delver at the cost of one slot while Plummet gives you one way for one slot.

[Ace/Homebrew]

https://i.imgur.com/i7FSRUZ.png

Is Browbeat playable as an instant?

How about if you can recast it for its mana cost and pitching a dead card?

Did we get there yet?

[MD.Ghost]

Edit: Oh boy, here comes the good shit:

Summary of textbox:


GSZ-able Delver Killer. Killing Griseldaddy and the likes might be a strech, though.

A super fast tutorable Delver (or DnT Flyers) Killer is awesome and besides the tutorable "kill-trigger" you still get a 3/2 beater with Reach for 1G, seems legit - sadly no "Elf" but overall a nice 1off for many GSZ decks. I will included it into my Sylvan Plug toolbox with Meren :cool:

[Poron]

https://i.imgur.com/i7FSRUZ.png

Is Browbeat playable as an instant?

How about if you can recast it for its mana cost and pitching a dead card?

Did we get there yet?

Quite. It’s very probable that you’re going to deal 4+3 cards with that by cycling a land.

[Barook]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DnYXkhQWwAMMhSb.png:large

Reverse YagWin? :eyebrow:

[Cire]

Did we get there yet?

I hope so! If this can't make a punisher card playable nothing can.

[Cire]

https://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/270/705/636714532113989140.jpeg

Definitley cheaper than I thought they would make a jumpstart clone card for . . . I mean, clone is always considered sort of weak, but double clone? I'm picturing trollish plays like turn 2 meddling mage, turn 3 meddling mage clone, turn 4 meddling mage clone. . . etc. .

[Lemnear]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DnYXkhQWwAMMhSb.png:large

Reverse YagWin? :eyebrow:

Yup. 'Play your Lotus, your Ancestral, your Ponder and your discard ... we cool?"

[Barook]

Other new stuff:

https://media.wizards.com/2018/grn/en_ZHtJIfK8kG.png

And from Twitter: https://twitter.com/mtgpuzzles/status/1042050779908132864

Electrostatic Field 1R
Creature - Wall
Defender
Whenever you cast an instant or sorcery spell, Electrostatic Field deals 1 damage to each opponent.
0/4

[Cave]

Electrostatic Field 1R
Creature - Wall
Defender
Whenever you cast an instant or sorcery spell, Electrostatic Field deals 1 damage to each opponent.
0/4

If this is common we have #9-#12th piece for Pauper Burn alongside Thermo-Alchemist and Firebrand Archer. So you're almost guaranteed to drop one on turn 2, and most likely guaranteed to have a second piece to replace the one that's being removed. Looks nice enough to me.

[Jain_Mor]

If this is common we have #9-#12th piece for Pauper Burn alongside Thermo-Alchemist and Firebrand Archer. So you're almost guaranteed to drop one on turn 2, and most likely guaranteed to have a second piece to replace the one that's being removed. Looks nice enough to me.

It's uncommon :/

[ReAnimator]

If this is common we have #9-#12th piece for Pauper Burn alongside Thermo-Alchemist and Firebrand Archer. So you're almost guaranteed to drop one on turn 2, and most likely guaranteed to have a second piece to replace the one that's being removed. Looks nice enough to me.


It's an Uncommon unfortunately.

[Cave]

Dang. We need good common cards. Pauper's getting stale as of lately.

[rufus]

...

Definitley cheaper than I thought they would make a jumpstart clone card for . . . I mean, clone is always considered sort of weak, but double clone? I'm picturing trollish plays like turn 2 meddling mage, turn 3 meddling mage clone, turn 4 meddling mage clone. . . etc. .

Keep making copies of Halimar Excavator or Biovisionary? A bunch of other similar effects - Cackling Counterpart, and Mirror Image don't really see that much play, does jumpstart really make this card that much better than those?

[Barook]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DnYpVazWsAEKevO.jpg

Scroll Rack has just found a new friend.

[rufus]

...
Scroll Rack has just found a new friend.

There's a combo with Thought Lash.

[PirateKing]

https://i.imgur.com/NLdGZJU.jpg

Scroll Rack has just found a new friend.

Wow is coffee in the Magic cannon now?
I always figured Izzet to be more an amphetamine guild than caffeine.
But I guess you can't put that on a kid's card game.
Still though, coffee is the best thing you could come up with in this fantastical setting?

[Barook]

There's a combo with Thought Lash.
That's pretty nifty. What win condition would you use, though?

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Is this good in Belcher?

[rufus]

That's pretty nifty. What win condition would you use, though?

The guy who proposed it here with Future Sight/Magus of the Future suggested storm, but you can also loop with Wheel of Sun and Moon.

[Mr. Safety]

Three mana Wrath for 4 or greater. Discuss. Likely not legacy playable?

http://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Citywide-Bust.png

[Poron]

If only top was legal

[Wilkin]

Three mana Wrath for 4 or greater. Discuss. Likely not legacy playable?

http://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Citywide-Bust.png

Doubt it. Retribution of the Meek is similar to this card (Power instead of Toughness) and sees very little play.

[Cire]

Keep making copies of Halimar Excavator or Biovisionary? A bunch of other similar effects - Cackling Counterpart, and Mirror Image don't really see that much play, does jumpstart really make this card that much better than those?

I have no idea - but to me, its essentially a Cackling Counterpart with a FB cost that is 4 mana lower. . . such a large drop in cost is worth thinking about.

[Firefraise]

That's pretty nifty. What win condition would you use, though?

Crack Lion's eye diamond, exile cards from your library until you find laboratory maniac and cast it ? But how do you protect it then?
Or have a lot of LED and Lotus petal and Mox Opal, crack them by sacrifice or by legend rule, play drafna's restoration, do it again until you have enough mana to break the experiment to cast something big from your hand or directly from your library. I imagine Emrakul, the Aeons Torn is the most obvious choice since you can ditch it to LED to shuffle. I'm so going to build this absurd deck, I 've waited so long for a card that make drafna's restoration good!

[Fox]

Crack Lion's eye diamond, exile cards from your library until you find laboratory maniac and cast it ? But how do you protect it then?

Assuming it resolves, all instant speed draw effects are counters (except vs Sudden Shock and the black split second one).

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

I am struck by the number of creative cards in this set, very nice, but there are only so many original ideas that can be put into cards before it becomes near impossible to think of new ones, but I like how this set is a nice break from the recent sets which seemed to not have enough cards that do not feel fresh, new, and exciting, rather recycled and tweaked versions of mechanics we've already seen. Enjoy it while it lasts.

[sco0ter]

Is this good in Belcher?

Definitively worth testing. It should draw (nearly) your whole library, making tons of mana and find Belcher.

[mistercakes]

Definitively worth testing. It should draw (nearly) your whole library, making tons of mana and find Belcher.

every spirit guide would cost 3 mana or else it would be stuck on top of deck. land grant cannot be cast from top of library with alternate cost.

i think this card is more likely to be some kind of value card. it likely won't get used effectively in any kind of combo deck, but could be great for something like burn or something more midrangey.

would love to see this card if you're flooded with lands in burn. if it resolves you untap and you're likely to cast several spells. i think you can even cast fireblast from the top of library, so that's cool.

not sure what matchups burn struggles against besides combo, but it could be okay.

mono red chalice decks could also run it as a singleton since it can help "draw" several cards per turn. (again simian spirit guide is kind of lousy here. does exiling it from your hand for mana count as "playing it"? for when you draw it the following turn)

[Brainstorm Ape]

It's a shitty Johnny card that costs way too much, asks too much, and does too little. It's one of those cards that excites you for all of a minute before you realize it will never be good , not even in casual EDH, because it has been intentionally gimped. It's purpose isn't to be good or see widespread play, but to tickle the brains of the playerbase, especially the more casual, trusting ones.

[Finn]

I predict Experimental Frenzy annoys more people than any other card in recent memory. Carefully setting up your top x cards with Scroll Rack is going to be annoying for opponents to watch turn after turn.

[sco0ter]

every spirit guide would cost 3 mana or else it would be stuck on top of deck. land grant cannot be cast from top of library with alternate cost.

i think this card is more likely to be some kind of value card. it likely won't get used effectively in any kind of combo deck, but could be great for something like burn or something more midrangey.

Right, sorry. Totally forgot about that.

@Finn: Even if you setup 2-3 cards with Scroll Rack, you still can't cast from your hand. Not very exciting.

[procobrito]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DnYpVazWsAEKevO.jpg

Scroll Rack has just found a new friend.

Recross the Path with no lands
Proteus Staff with no creatures

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

land grant cannot be cast from top of library with alternate cost.

I'm not so sure I agree 100% with your police with there, Lou

[mistercakes]

Well it does say reveal from your hand...

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Well it does say reveal from your hand...

I don't see that "from" on gatherer.

[mistercakes]

Ah sweet, so it just says reveal your hand, not reveal it. That's pretty cool. So just the spirit guides and burning wish is awful with the Enchantment.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

So just the spirit guides and burning wish is awful with the Enchantment.

701.13b does not cover activated abilities. So you can still exile from your hand, just don't get them stuck on top.

[mistercakes]

Thats an improvement then. Any innovation is welcome :)

[rufus]

The surveil cards that they've spoiled so far aren't good enough for it, but you could try Experimental Frenzy + Enhanced Surveilance

There might also be a scry pile with cards like

Artificer's Assistant/Contraband Kingpin
and
Mystic Speculation/Reason//Believe/Serum Visions


I predict Experimental Frenzy annoys more people than any other card in recent memory. Carefully setting up your top x cards with Scroll Rack is going to be annoying for opponents to watch turn after turn.

Yeah, this seems like a card that can create tedious play patterns.

If you want to get really annoying, there's probably some way to do it with Library of Leng and looting stuff like Burning Inquiry and Breakthrough.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I don't know why we're trying to break this card when Hazorets undying fury is already out there

[Megadeus]

Full spoiler is up for anyone interested. Doubt anything super playable left but who knows

[Ace/Homebrew]

Full spoiler is up for anyone interested. Doubt anything super playable left but who knows
Nothing stood out, but I wasn't viewing with Pauper, Brawl, or Standard in mind.

[Scott]

I might be missing a card or two but I think these have been the cards discussed as potentially Legacy playable at some point, with the questionable ones towards the end.

https://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/270/811/636721897643537163.png https://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/270/939/636724677556511461.png https://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/271/32/636727930493179482.png https://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/271/34/636727931151797954.png https://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/270/922/636724461658801994.png https://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/270/852/636722816429174506.png https://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/271/86/636728800516230712.png https://i.imgur.com/crwktCD.jpg https://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/270/883/636723631090859058.png https://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/270/855/636722832627592741.png https://i.imgur.com/ADxWEqd.png

[morgan_coke]

Just saw this one:

Selective Snare
Sorcery
XU
Return X target creatures of the type of your choice to their owners hands.

Seems pretty strong vs. creature decks. It's always a bad unsummon for 1U, but bouncing two or three specific dudes for 3 or 4 mana seems playable, if niche.

[ReAnimator]

https://media.wizards.com/2018/grn/en_imzlKs3HPb.png

Probably not too playable other than #goesinnicfit but it is an extreme upgrade over Fleshbag Marauder and others, if there was ever a niche slot where this effect was needed.

[Lemnear]

https://media.wizards.com/2018/grn/en_imzlKs3HPb.png

Probably not too playable other than #goesinnicfit but it is an extreme upgrade over Fleshbag Marauder and others, if there was ever a niche slot where this effect was needed.

Something to blink or Pox?

[mistercakes]

looks like a cool way for those 5c human decks to kill planeswalkers.

[Mr. Safety]

Should have been a 2/1 for 1B because of the symmetry, so at 3 mana it seems like a stretch for legacy.

[rufus]

Does Conclave Tribunal make any sense in Death and Taxes?



3W
Enchantment
Convoke
When Conclave Tribunal enters the battlefield, exile target nonland permanent an opponent controls until Conclave Tribunal leaves the battlefield.

[MorphBerlin]

Should have been a 2/1 for 1B because of the symmetry, so at 3 mana it seems like a stretch for legacy.

2 mana kill your jace uncounterably because of the perfectly designed cavern?

[Scott]

There were four Aggro Loam decks in the top 16 of the 109-player Finnish Legacy nationals tournament (https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=20237&f=LE) over the weekend. One deck played three MD copies of Assassin's Trophy, two of them played two MD copies, and one of them played none. I'm curious how the card was for them in the tournament.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Yeah, I searched TCDecks earlier and saw 2 Aggro Loam decks went undefeated in an MTGO League with 2/2 split Trophy/Decay.

Only other hits were 3 BUG Control, 2 4C Control, and Julian with Elves.

[BenBleiweiss]

I don't like the continous presence of this SCG sales guy (BenBleiweiss) in this thread trying to stir up hype for weak cards...can the mods do something about that please?

We're about a month out from the set release! For the record, I posted six cards this spoiler season:
Arclight Phoenix
Assassin's Trophy
Creeping Chill
Lazav, the Multifarious
Mausoleum Secrets
Runaway Steam-Kin

While not all of these ended up hitting Legacy - I'll settle for 5 of the 6 of them seeing serious competitive constructed play in at Modern and Standard.

[Erdvermampfa]

None of them had significant or even any impact on the format like you had suggested in your posts. 'Welcome your new format staple' etc. was your words in regards to Trophy IIRC and, oh surprise, just like Lemnear and I had predicted, the card has almost no significance in the format at all for all the reasons pointed out. The other cards your listed there are just laughably bad and the fact that some may have had impact on modern or standard (I can't judge because I don't care for those formats) is irrelevant because this is a forum primarily about legacy. I don't mind your sales promotion strategy in some other forums but please keep it out of here.

The mere fact that you had to dig this out a month later to clean your reputation is quite amusing though.

[Barook]

None of them had significant or even any impact on the format like you had suggested in your posts.
Maybe not for Legacy, but in Modern, Creeping Chill made Dredge the most-played deck in format and new Arclight Burn lists seem to be pretty strong as well.

[Ace/Homebrew]

http://i.imgur.com/Ub0GN.gif

[ESG]

None of them had significant or even any impact on the format like you had suggested in your posts. 'Welcome your new format staple' etc. was your words in regards to Trophy IIRC and, oh surprise, just like Lemnear and I had predicted, the card has almost no significance in the format at all for all the reasons pointed out. The other cards your listed there are just laughably bad and the fact that some may have had impact on modern or standard (I can't judge because I don't care for those formats) is irrelevant because this is a forum primarily about legacy. I don't mind your sales promotion strategy in some other forums but please keep it out of here.

The mere fact that you had to dig this out a month later to clean your reputation is quite amusing though.

Shardless BUG with Assassin's Trophy won the Legacy 1K at Card Kingdom/Mox Boarding House today. It's a good card and gives BUG a clean answer to Jace. Spoiler season is a great time to brew up new decks and test them out. Players are notoriously bad at assessing new cards, as anyone can see by looking through older threads here, so if you have an open mind and do the testing, you can get a leg up.

Also, Ben has been a member of this community for years, and his posts aren't just promotional.

[bruizar]

None of them had significant or even any impact on the format like you had suggested in your posts. 'Welcome your new format staple' etc. was your words in regards to Trophy IIRC and, oh surprise, just like Lemnear and I had predicted, the card has almost no significance in the format at all for all the reasons pointed out. The other cards your listed there are just laughably bad and the fact that some may have had impact on modern or standard (I can't judge because I don't care for those formats) is irrelevant because this is a forum primarily about legacy. I don't mind your sales promotion strategy in some other forums but please keep it out of here.

The mere fact that you had to dig this out a month later to clean your reputation is quite amusing though.

So he is not allowed to make predictions but you are? Don’t be hostile towards others, before you know it you’re playing a format the size of vintage.

That said, after playing Guilds of Ravnica a bit I’m very impressed with the powerlevel of surveil. Price of Fame looks like a nice sideboard card to me, although probably too narrowz I’m keeping them just in case.


Goblin Cratermaker seems to be the break out legacy card. Vraska has a spot in nicfit, and ass trophy will find its way into the format too. Legion Warboss can find itself a slot next to Rabblemaster in dragonstompy.

[Ace/Homebrew]

https://i.imgur.com/jaWDVXQ.jpg

[morgan_coke]

I really want to like Growth Spiral, but I don't think it's legacy playable. I mean, it's not quite, but mostly just a worse Coiling Oracle or Explore.

But man, it's a cool card and I like it.

[Barook]

Simic Ascendancy seems kinda cute in some kind of Hardened Scales Affinity build between Steel Overseer and Ravager. Probably too much "danger of cool things" to be any good, but who knows.

[schweinefettmann]

I’m gonna try growth spiral out in solidarity. Being forced to go off on 3 lands is tough, and being able to ‘ramp’ in the opponents turn, or even mid-combo is huge.
We’ll see if springtide and solidarity is gonna make a comeback. The last couple of sets have really put some interesting toys into their repertoire.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BenBleiweiss]

https://external-preview.redd.it/1Jt1fby36RRuY4N360D4imm0UTfnbxC9AYxxSCWVykM.png?auto=webp&22f02be3

Ok, the second ability is pretty nuts!https://media.wizards.com/2018/rna/en_iAClRqFGby.png

[PirateKing]

Lavinia, Azorius Renegade

That first ability is a pretty big middle finger to the whole Miracle mechanic though isn't it?
And the card on a whole hates Storm pretty hard.

Also I'm not up to speed, what are these alternate art cards? FNM promos? Or is this what cards are now.

[Dice_Box]

What they are is in the bottom left of the card. Store Champ.

[PirateKing]

What they are is in the bottom left of the card. Store Champ.

I see, you can tell what they are because they say on the card.
What an interesting skill! I'll just let myself out now.

[BenBleiweiss]

That first ability is a pretty big middle finger to the whole Miracle mechanic though isn't it?
And the card on a whole hates Storm pretty hard.

Also I'm not up to speed, what are these alternate art cards? FNM promos? Or is this what cards are now.

Just to check - it doesn't stop storm copies, right? (But it will stop stuff that is ritualed/accelerated into play)

[Dice_Box]

No, copies are not cast.

[BenBleiweiss]

No, copies are not cast.

It does hose/hurt a lot of Legacy strategies pretty hard from what I can see though:
Dredge
Miracles
Chalice of the Void
FOW / Daze
Chrome Mox / Mox Diamond / Lotus Petal
Blood Moon / Trinisphere / Ensnaring Bridge / Dismember / Show and Tell before turn 3
Snuff Out

[H]

I don't think this card is all that amazing, but it would be a pretty hilarious way to break the symmetry of Dream Halls.

[Dice_Box]

It does hose/hurt a lot of Legacy strategies pretty hard from what I can see though:
Dredge
Miracles
Chalice of the Void
FOW / Daze
Chrome Mox / Mox Diamond / Lotus Petal
Blood Moon / Trinisphere / Ensnaring Bridge / Dismember / Show and Tell before turn 3
Snuff Out
Terminus.

If it's going to see play it will be Blade Control. Mostly I think Modern and EDH.

[Mr. Safety]

Growth Spiral has some interesting implications for blue-splashed Turbo Depths, which is becoming more common (Flusterstorm sideboard.) It's an instant speed Explore, which seems ok, but probably unplayable. Putting lands onto the battlefield at instant speed, other than fetching or Crop Rotation, isn't really something we've seen before. Lots of gotcha tricks can happen now that were limited only to Crop Rotation before: Wasteland, Ghost Quarter, Karakas, Maze of Ith, Bojuka Bog, and more that I'm missing. It's interesting to have a land drop on an opponent's turn, making Depths/Stage/Hexmage a potential instant speed combo with hidden information.

I like the idea of the 2-mana guild Ascendancy cards too, excited to see what other variants come out of it.

[Mr. Safety]

Terminus.

If it's going to see play it will be Blade Control. Mostly I think Modern and EDH.

Yes, this gives another card for UWx to combat Tron (not that Tron is tearing up the format currently.) It's an interesting hatebear, similar to Gaddock Teeg really but with potentially a lot more implications.

[Dice_Box]

It's not likely UW that will play it that much, but Humans. This is likely going to be played there.

UW against Tron? Has to be in the side, because you want Terminus live game one. I would rather have Damping, it hits Storm too.

[Mr. Safety]

It's not likely UW that will play it that much, but Humans. This is likely going to be played there.

UW against Tron? Has to be in the side, because you want Terminus live game one. I would rather have Damping, it hits Storm too.

Good points.

[H]

UW against Tron? Has to be in the side, because you want Terminus live game one. I would rather have Damping, it hits Storm too.

The card does not effect you for either effect though, only opponents.

Not that I am saying this makes it de facto maindeck material, but it means it could potentially be.

[Dice_Box]

The card does not effect you for either effect though, only opponents.

Not that I am saying this makes it de facto maindeck material, but it means it could potentially be.
Shit, I missed that. Did they learn nothing from Leo?

[H]

Shit, I missed that. Did they learn nothing from Leo?

Learn? You funny. These are Blue cards.

[Barook]

It does hose/hurt a lot of Legacy strategies pretty hard from what I can see though:
Dredge
Miracles
Chalice of the Void
FOW / Daze
Chrome Mox / Mox Diamond / Lotus Petal
Blood Moon / Trinisphere / Ensnaring Bridge / Dismember / Show and Tell before turn 3
Snuff Out
It also stops Elves from casting early NOs (or higher CC GSZs, depending on the board state)

Lavinia + Armageddon seems like an absolute wrecking ball, though. They can neither FoW nor Daze it for free, so once they're tapped out, they're fucked. The first ability stops any higher noncreature CC spells and good luck with no lands in play. The question is how to break the symmetry best. CoW seems like a good candidate, considering you can recover lands from Armageddon evey turn and with Wasteland/Ghost Quarter, you can lock them up even further, with or without Armageddon. Maybe a WU Stompy deck? Trophy Mage could fetch goodies like Trinisphere, CoW or equipment, even Chromatic Lantern wouldn't be too shabby here as massive mana fixer and post-Geddon mana source. Throw in some Mox Diamonds for LD resistance, mana fixing and CoW synergy. Tabernacle would be great (either MD or SB, depending on the build) with Armageddon, especially with a Chromatic Lantern in play to tap for mana.

Edit: Some people have mentioned Knowledge Pool to combo with her. It locks the opponent out from playing any spells anymore unless they're uncounterable.

[morgan_coke]

Between Azorius Signet and the UW ODY filter land, you could cast her in a UW Stompy shell pretty easily, if that helps. Flagstones of Trokair for Armageddon too. Toss in Teferi and Jace at the high end and you've probably got a solid tier 2 deck at least.

Maybe as a starting point:

4x Lavinia
3x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Trophy Mage

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Force of Will
3x Sorcerous Spyglass

1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Trinisphere
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Batterskull

4x Armageddon
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
4x Thirst for Knowledge

4x Azorious Signet
4x Mox Diamond (Chrome Mox?)
4x Flagstones of Trokair
2x Plains
2x Island
2x Tundra
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Wasteland

And that's 64 cards, but whatever, it's just a theorycrafted starting point for a more serious discussion. But I mean, looking at that, I see a lot of disruption and stuff, but I'm not sure it's actually better than anything out there right now. Really depends on how Lavinia plays in practice.

[Barook]

Between Azorius Signet and the UW ODY filter land, you could cast her in a UW Stompy shell pretty easily, if that helps. Flagstones of Trokair for Armageddon too. Toss in Teferi and Jace at the high end and you've probably got a solid tier 2 deck at least.

Maybe as a starting point:

4x Lavinia
3x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Trophy Mage

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Force of Will
3x Sorcerous Spyglass

1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Trinisphere
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Batterskull

4x Armageddon
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
4x Thirst for Knowledge

4x Azorious Signet
4x Mox Diamond (Chrome Mox?)
4x Flagstones of Trokair
2x Plains
2x Island
2x Tundra
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Wasteland

And that's 64 cards, but whatever, it's just a theorycrafted starting point for a more serious discussion. But I mean, looking at that, I see a lot of disruption and stuff, but I'm not sure it's actually better than anything out there right now. Really depends on how Lavinia plays in practice.
The OD filter land sucks since it doesn't produce mana by itself. Azorius Signet is way better as filter, especially as it doubles as ramp. Given the high amount of artifacts, Karn might fit the deck as well to complement Jace in the 4CC slot. A single copy of Karakas should probably be in there as well.

[Cire]

Edit: Some people have mentioned Knowledge Pool to combo with her. It locks the opponent out from playing any spells anymore unless they're uncounterable.

Non-creature spells, creatures still get through.

edit - this card seems like a blue chalice . . . how is it not going to be slotted in 2-4 into Miracle decks and make them even more annoying? You don't need to go the whole 8 chalice route with Lavinia and Chalice, just sort of make room in existing Mircales and make people's lives worse. Maybe also figure a way to put some wastelands in there?

[Barook]

Non-creature spells, creatures still get through.
Knowledge Pool exiles cast spells (including creature spells) and allows you to cast other spells exiled with it - for free. And what does the second ability counter? Free spells - this isn't limited to noncreature spells, unlike the first ability.

You would need stuff like Abrupt Decay or Karakas to break through that eventually.

[Megadeus]

Just play Bant with like 8 Mana dorks, this guy, Ramunap Excavator, and geddon. Can even do it with green soon package

[Barook]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DupbB4VWsAAJFZS.jpg:large

Not really impressed by this hatebear.

[Tylert]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DupbB4VWsAAJFZS.jpg:large

Not really impressed by this hatebear.

For a second i really thought this was an upgraded thalia 1.0 and that dread of night and sulfur elementals were going to spike :)
Then i saw "during your turn"...
This is less good than the 2/2 that denies spells from your opponent during your turn...

[morgan_coke]

I dunno, Tithe Taker hits abilities too, and it only affects your opponent. Those are both pretty big considering how many legacy decks want to play or use abilities on your turn.

This hits Fetches, Karakas, Vial, countermagic,.. lots of things.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

It's not that strong, but it's ability to replace itself with a 1/1 might get it to fringe play in legacy and serious considerations in modern.

[Mr. Safety]

Looking at Tithe Taker, the deck it makes the most sense in is UW Stoneblade. It distracts removal from your Stoneforge Mystics and helps you resolve them. It also holds equipment and the fact that the token flies is another good target for equips. D&T already has Vial to get stuff in uncountered, so that probably isn't a good fit. If this had first strike it would have been a much different discussion; I think that would have tipped it just enough to warrant serious testing. As it stands, not sure it's good enough. I mean, it has to fight for slots with Snapcaster Mage and True Name Nemesis in UW Stoneblade, and that's probably the best shell for the ability. Maybe Legacy humans will get more prevalent?

In modern, where counterspells actually cost mana (as if), it could become quite good in the humans deck. Vial-ing it in at the right time to avoid Terminus/Supreme Verdict blowouts seems quite good. Humans is already playing Thalia to tax opponents, this would make it even steeper to interact. Much more likely to see this in Modern than legacy.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Looking at Tithe Taker, the deck it makes the most sense in is UW Stoneblade. It distracts removal from your Stoneforge Mystics and helps you resolve them. It also holds equipment and the fact that the token flies is another good target for equips. D&T already has Vial to get stuff in uncountered, so that probably isn't a good fit. If this had first strike it would have been a much different discussion; I think that would have tipped it just enough to warrant serious testing. As it stands, not sure it's good enough. I mean, it has to fight for slots with Snapcaster Mage and True Name Nemesis in UW Stoneblade, and that's probably the best shell for the ability. Maybe Legacy humans will get more prevalent?

In modern, where counterspells actually cost mana (as if), it could become quite good in the humans deck. Vial-ing it in at the right time to avoid Terminus/Supreme Verdict blowouts seems quite good. Humans is already playing Thalia to tax opponents, this would make it even steeper to interact. Much more likely to see this in Modern than legacy.
Makes sense to me (except the distract from Stone forge bit. Stone forge's biggest damage is resolving getting to then cheat the batterskull in is just extra gravy) but I think it's most comparable to Squadron Hawk, which already hasn't been good enough for this deck in forever.

[Cire]

Knowledge Pool exiles cast spells (including creature spells) and allows you to cast other spells exiled with it - for free. And what does the second ability counter? Free spells - this isn't limited to noncreature spells, unlike the first ability.

You would need stuff like Abrupt Decay or Karakas to break through that eventually.

Oh man, I'm really sorry. I should RTFC before telling people to RTFC. My bad dude.

[Barook]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Duy271UXQAAzb6u.jpg

Instant
Destroy target artifact, creature or planeswalker.

It's flexible, but the mana cost is kinda restrictive.

[Mr. Safety]

Makes sense to me (except the distract from Stone forge bit. Stone forge's biggest damage is resolving getting to then cheat the batterskull in is just extra gravy) but I think it's most comparable to Squadron Hawk, which already hasn't been good enough for this deck in forever.

I probably wasn't very clear, but what I meant is this: if they are killing Lavinia then they are likely not killing Stoneforge, which still leaves you with a cheap way to get BSkull into play or at the very least a creature to equip. Just choosing between Lavinia or Stoneforge to kill seems to push opponents into subjectively worse decisions. I assumed the big argument would be 'dies to removal', which is why its such a downgrade from TNN as a threat. I may be overstating this, I am not incredibly familiar with Stoneblade as an archetype. I was making an assumption that UW Stoneblade (instead of Esper Blade with Lingering Souls) is more dependent on keeping SFM around to equip because it plays fewer threats.

The final result is the same: it seems worse than every other creature in that deck. It's greatest strength is a free Force Spike/Daze on your turn to resolve SFM or your other threats (Jace, TNN.) Replacing itself with an evasive token isn't small potatoes, either.

[BenBleiweiss]

https://media.wizards.com/2018/rna/en_EP8R7WmM2R.png

3 for a 3/3 haste or 3 for a 4/4 that gives you and itself hexproof on your turn.

[morgan_coke]

Outside of Settle the Wreckage, which is a big deal in Standard, is it ever relevant for you to have hexproof on your own turn?

EDIT: Wing Shards too I guess.

[NeckBird]

Outside of Settle the Wreckage, which is a big deal in Standard, is it ever relevant for you to have hexproof on your own turn?

Searing Blaze

I’m sure there’s something else.

[BenBleiweiss]

Searing Blaze

I’m sure there’s something else.

Diabolic Edict, plus it throws off the timing on a lot of Burn stuff (Lavamancer, Bolts, etc).

[Barook]

https://media.wizards.com/2018/rna/en_EP8R7WmM2R.png

3 for a 3/3 haste or 3 for a 4/4 that gives you and itself hexproof on your turn.
Color me unimpressed.

Riot is probably the most cookie-cutter mechanic I've ever seen.

[morgan_coke]

Color me unimpressed.

Riot is probably the most cookie-cutter mechanic I've ever seen.

I do like that it enters the battlefield with the counter already on it, so if you go big you don't get basically countered by Lightning Bolt.

EDIT: of course, it has hexproof on your turn, but I'm sure it'll matter for some other cards with the mechanic.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Calling a shot right now: There's going to be a 1/1 Riot for R.

[Erdvermampfa]

There is no doubt that this card is going to make Zoo tier 1 again. A 3/3 with haste and trample for 3 is pretty good.

[Mr. Safety]

Are you joking? Boggart Ram-Gang isn't breaking any formats lately, as far as I know, and it's arguably better than this card.

[colo]

Calling a shot right now: There's going to be a 1/1 Riot for R.

... maybe with a "~ cannot block." attached, yes.


@Mr. Safety: Yes, Erdvermampfa is joking.

[Aggro_zombies]

Color me unimpressed.

Riot is probably the most cookie-cutter mechanic I've ever seen.
Simic and Gruul both tend to get those.

That said, I like it. It's like a more interesting Unleash, which was already an interesting mechanic in Limited, and it overlaps nicely with Simic's apparent use of +1/+1 counters as a resource and Rakdos's desire to do damage every turn. I wouldn't expect any of the cards with guild mechanics to be playable in Legacy, so this doesn't particularly disappoint in that respect.

[rufus]

Growth Spiral has some interesting implications for blue-splashed ...

I think people will be trying it in Scapeshift control in modern, but I don't think that there are any legacy decks that want to ramp lands and counter spells. I also wonder if it does anything in the Fastbond/Gush vintage decks if those are still around.

[PirateKing]

I wouldn't expect any of the cards with guild mechanics to be playable in Legacy, so this doesn't particularly disappoint in that respect.

Light up the Stage will see play in Burn lists because of the Spectacle cost, but yeah overall that's probably a safe bet.
I feel gone are the days that they'll print mechanics that will define entire decks like Dredge

[Mr. Safety]

Light up the Stage will see play in Burn lists because of the Spectacle cost, but yeah overall that's probably a safe bet.
I feel gone are the days that they'll print mechanics that will define entire decks like Dredge

While I tend to agree with you, there is still a ton of unexplored space in different zones of the game. The boring part is that almost all of their mechanics in the last few sets have been centered around combat. Admittedly it's the biggest piece of the pie concerning gameplay and makes for 'traditional' magic slugfests in standard but leaves eternal formats out in the cold.

Just a few areas they could focus on to develop game mechanics:

-Top-of-deck matters - one thing that stuck out a couple years ago was the emergence of the Lantern Control deck in Modern. It was a deck that approached the game in a unique way in a zone that was essentially unexplored strategically.

-Exile-zone matters - this could range anywhere from bringing back phasing to the recent small developments with red draw spells (Act on Impluse, Commune with Lava, Light up the Stage) It could be a way to enable other colors, namely red, to get library manipulation on the same level as blue.

-Upkeep matters - there have been lots of mechanics built around this but there is still a ton of space for development. Tangle Wire as a card is pretty cool in my opinion, so new cards that operate on this axis could really bring a new angle to the game.

[PirateKing]

Meh, the difference between can't and won't is academic. But you're right, there's more room for growth. Though what annoys me the most is all the new mechanics with the variables hardcoded into the keywords.
Megamorph was dumb and phoned in, but it really gets me that the counter was set from the beginning. Like Megamorph X would have redeemed it and offered up so much design space.

Devour was an okay mechanic, and when it was printed in Alara it was just 1s and 2s, but it left the door open for Thromok the Insatiable to be a interesting revisit to the mechanic.
Bushido could have just been baked in +1/+1 and it wouldn't have drasticly altered the set, but then Konda, Lord of Eiganjo wouldn't have been as special.
Flashback is still interesting because the costs can be different, sometimes wildly so. Jump-Start will always be the cost + discard a card, so it;s so much harder to do new things in that space.

As long as the mechanics are both uninspired and closed, then it'll be hard to do anything cool. Even if every card printed in the set had the variable set at 1, just making it open to some supplemental years later would be redeeming.

[Mr. Safety]

Meh, the difference between can't and won't is academic. But you're right, there's more room for growth. Though what annoys me the most is all the new mechanics with the variables hardcoded into the keywords.
Megamorph was dumb and phoned in, but it really gets me that the counter was set from the beginning. Like Megamorph X would have redeemed it and offered up so much design space.

Devour was an okay mechanic, and when it was printed in Alara it was just 1s and 2s, but it left the door open for Thromok the Insatiable to be a interesting revisit to the mechanic.
Bushido could have just been baked in +1/+1 and it wouldn't have drasticly altered the set, but then Konda, Lord of Eiganjo wouldn't have been as special.
Flashback is still interesting because the costs can be different, sometimes wildly so. Jump-Start will always be the cost + discard a card, so it;s so much harder to do new things in that space.

As long as the mechanics are both uninspired and closed, then it'll be hard to do anything cool. Even if every card printed in the set had the variable set at 1, just making it open to some supplemental years later would be redeeming.

I agree completely, 'can't' and 'won't' are functionally the same. It's not that they can't, it's that they won't. Kicker is another over-done mechanic in it's various forms. Gone are the days of build-around mechanics, as you say.

[schweinefettmann]

I think people will be trying it in Scapeshift control in modern, but I don't think that there are any legacy decks that want to ramp lands and counter spells. I also wonder if it does anything in the Fastbond/Gush vintage decks if those are still around.

Well, it’s definitely going to be heavily tested in my solidarity (reset high tide) build.
What’s scarier than watching an instant-speed stack control deck going off? Watching it going off a turn or 2 faster, and being able to brainstorm-shuffle off a fetch mid-combo. I think it has the potential to be completely nutty.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

The Incubation half of the revealed split card is good. Especially that hybrid cost.

[morgan_coke]

Incubation U/G hybrid (1cmc)
Sorcery
Look at the top 5, put a creature in your hand, rest on bottom random.
//
Incongruity 1UG
Instant
Exile target creature, replace it with a 3/3 lizard.

That's pretty solid tbh, on both ends.

[chunderbucket]

Commune with Nature exists and sees no play. Does Force-pitchability, easier mana cost and an alternative (bad) removal spell raise it to the realm of playability? And if so, in what deck would it go?

[morgan_coke]

Emergency Powers 5UW
Instant - Mythic

Timetwister text

Addendum - if cast during main phase, put a 7 mana or less permanent from your hand into play.

I don't really know how to evaluate that except as "probably bad but some kind of potential, I guess?"

[Aggro_zombies]

Light up the Stage will see play in Burn lists because of the Spectacle cost, but yeah overall that's probably a safe bet.
I feel gone are the days that they'll print mechanics that will define entire decks like Dredge
There's a couple of problems with this, I think.

The first is that, realistically, there's very little design space for cards to break into Legacy. The ones that do tend to be:

1) Hyper-efficient threats;
2) Hyper-efficient answers;
3) Hyper-efficient library manipulation;
4) Efficient combo pieces;
5) Big, card-advantage generating creature bombs to cheat into play

Of those, Wizards basically doesn't do #3 anymore, and it rarely does #4 at a mana price point that makes sense in this format (energy came close but none of the good cards were costed aggressively enough). They rarely make a creature in #5 that's powerful enough to displace the current crop of Emrakul, Griselbrand, Elesh Norn, etc., though it happens occasionally.

That basically just leaves categories #1 and #2, as we saw last set with Assassin's Trophy. However, it's really problematic to build entire mechanics around making hyper-efficient threats or answers, since those mechanics tend to either be busted cost reducers (Delve, Phyrexian mana) or one-off designs (Delver) and will usually negatively impact Standard. Since that's the format they test the most, it's rare to have a threat that doesn't cause problems there but is good enough here, so it's basically answers or bust.

The other major sticking point is that there's just not a ton of virgin design space left that doesn't have power level problems. Top-of-deck mechanics sound cool, for example, until you realize that 1) Miracles was their first major foray into that and it was kind of a flop, and 2) the mechanic is either an RNG Clown Fiesta or you have enough library manipulation that it becomes oppressive card advantage (hint: Legacy will always have enough library manipulation). A lot of similar mechanics you could make end up in the space of either missing completely on power level because they don't do anything the format cares about or rewards, or else they're busted in half and will spawn broken decks.

[Captain Hammer]

Commune with Nature exists and sees no play. Does Force-pitchability, easier mana cost and an alternative (bad) removal spell raise it to the realm of playability? And if so, in what deck would it go?

"Does Force-pitchability, easier mana cost and an alternative (bad) removal spell raise it to the realm of playability?"

Yes it does, especially the alternative chalice proof instant speed removal spell that can take out a Dark Depths in a pinch.

Both modes have utility and modal cards where multiple modes are useful often end up seeing play.

The first mode is fairly similar to Ancient Stirrings which sees plenty of play. Add modal removal onto it and it becomes even better.

As for decks that might be interested in this mechanic, off the top of my head...

Food Chain - can tutor up combo pieces, plays enough creatures where both modes are useful.

Nic Fit - because Nic Fit.

Maybe some blue based creature combo deck such as Sneak and Show or Reanimator (not those per se, but something along those lines, Aluren or Eureka perhaps).

[Barook]

The first mode is fairly similar to Ancient Stirrings which sees plenty of play.
No, it isn't, it's literally Commune with Nature and that card is garbage. Ancient Stirrings decks are constructed in a way they can hit pretty much 100% of the time. Commune with Nature can't do that based on the fact alone that you have to have lands in your deck.

[Ronald Deuce]

Light up the Stage will see play in Burn lists because of the Spectacle cost, but yeah overall that's probably a safe bet.
I feel gone are the days that they'll print mechanics that will define entire decks like Dredge

Eldrazi notwithstanding, I think you're right.

[Darkenslight]

Emergency Powers 5UW
Instant - Mythic

Timetwister text

Addendum - if cast during main phase, put a 7 mana or less permanent from your hand into play.

I don't really know how to evaluate that except as "probably bad but some kind of potential, I guess?"

If you can cast it, chances are you can win the game with it.

A few notable permanents that will cause conniptions:

Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
Karn Liberated
Dream Halls
Elspeth, Sun's Champion

IT's definitely a powerful card...but I'm not sure you'll be given that amount of time in most formats to abuse this.

In Commander, however....

[morgan_coke]

Absorb reprint. Pretty meaningless for Legacy, but huge for Modern and Standard.

But seriously, you can reprint that but not Deed or Prophetic Bolt? Come on.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Absorb reprint. Pretty meaningless for Legacy, but huge for Modern and Standard.
Is it? Render Silent is already available and isn't played...

[Aggro_zombies]

Is it even all that good in Standard? Wizard's Retort, Ionize, and Sinister Sabotage all seem much better than it for various reasons.

[NeckBird]

Is it even all that good in Standard? Wizard's Retort, Ionize, and Sinister Sabotage all seem much better than it for various reasons.

It really depends on what cards get printed in Standard that make aggro better. I'd rather have Ionize and/or Sinister Sabotage in any control mirror, but against mono red Absorb is the best card in your deck. Gruul looks sick so I'm thinking Absorb will be pretty good.

[kombatkiwi]

It's definitely good in standard, probably not playable in modern though. Lightning Helix does see some play as "pay W extra to have healing salve kicker on this other playable card" but I think a 3 mana counterspell is too awkward

[Dice_Box]

Modern has access to some decent 3 mana counters already and they see little play.

The format is very fast, mostly built around actions on the first two turns. (Or 3 if you are flashing back your Looting) If your waiting until turn 3 to interact, your losing.