[GRN] Guilds of Ravnica & [RNA] Ravnica Allegiance

[Lemnear]

https://youtu.be/j_qvw0JrswA


Guilds of Ravnica releases October 5, 2018, and will prominently feature the harmonious Selesnya (green-white), the militant Boros (red-white), the life-and-death-focused Golgari (black-green), the frazzled geniuses of the Izzet (blue-red), and the mystery of the Dimir (blue-black).

Ravnica Allegiance ratchets up the drama and releases January 2019, and will complete our travels through the guilds. Join the orderly Azorius (white-blue), the chaotic Rakdos (black-red), the wild Gruul (red-green), the experimental Simic (green-blue), and the devious Orzhov (white-black) as we reach the penultimate moment of the Gatewatch's story.

[lavafrogg]

https://youtu.be/j_qvw0JrswA

Guilds of Ravnica releases October 5, 2018, and will prominently feature the harmonious Selesnya (green-white), the militant Boros (red-white), the life-and-death-focused Golgari (black-green), the frazzled geniuses of the Izzet (blue-red), and the mystery of the Dimir (blue-black).

Ravnica Allegiance ratchets up the drama and releases January 2019, and will complete our travels through the guilds. Join the orderly Azorius (white-blue), the chaotic Rakdos (black-red), the wild Gruul (red-green), the experimental Simic (green-blue), and the devious Orzhov (white-black) as we reach the penultimate moment of the Gatewatch's story.

Omg! Let’s go Maverick cards!

[Bosque]

Why. We've been to Ravnica too many times. I will be pleased only if the jacetice league goes there and they all die for good.

Then we can go back to Dominara again for a few blocks. That'd be fine.

[morgan_coke]

excited for yet another two jace planeswalkers

[Lemnear]

excited for yet another two jace planeswalkers

Looks like this third visit to Ravnica will have three expansions, with only GRN and RNA announced for now. It's a 3 set block. Prolly means 3 Jaces xD

[Erdvermampfa]

They are clearly running out of ideas. Mtg is on the decline.

[bakofried]

It's a wildly popular plane that people constantly want to go back to. What's wrong with that?

[Lemnear]

It's a wildly popular plane that people constantly want to go back to. What's wrong with that?

When WotC started with revisiting planes, people were excited, but given how they turned the amazing Ravnica into a shitshow during the second run and made it all about Jace, Jace and Jace again while removing all elements which made the guilds and plane interresting, I doubt that this third installment is soooooo well received. I want to remind that the Zendikar rerun was also a total mess. They are out of ideas. Wouldn't be surprised at all, if this block is followed by another Mirrodin/Phyrexia spin

[ahg113]

When WotC started with reviting planes, people were excited, but given how they turned the amazing Ravnica into a shitshow during the second run and made it all about Jace, Jace and Jace again while removing all elements which made the guilds and plane interresting, I doubt that this third installment is soooooo well received. I want to remind that the Zendikar rerun was also a total mess. They are out of ideas. Wouldn't be surprised at all, if this block is followed by another Mirrodin/Phyrexia spin

My timing may be off, but I totally agree. A major appeal to magic was the unique flavor of the different places you'd see with each new expansion. Then the Kawagami (sp) block, followed by the Eventide/Shadowmoor stuff just felt a bridge too far.
Personally, I appreciated the efforts, although the execution wasn't stellar. So when those didn't run wild, we got a rehash eventually, it went gangbusters, and the new model was set. Rehash a known seller instead of the wild fringes. Amohfghjkl (sp) is cool cause that felt like new made ground'ish (f'ING jace...). Lil lazy, lil scared, lil greed, some from this pile, some from that.

/ramble /noise

[Rascalyote]

Maybe ravnica is the planeswalker version of dalaran and they just spend most of their time there /shrug.

Return to mirrodin and Innistrad were good at least.

[Dice_Box]

At this point I'm not even paying attention to the story. The only thing that this means to me is less Artifacts and more dual Lands. Don't see a reason to complain here.

[tescrin]

I have mixed feelings. It has been like.. 7 years, so I don't think it's "Too Soon U Guyz" when they're doing two worlds a year (specifically with usually one revist.) Though I think it's odd they're entering another multicolored block and not doing Alara. That said, last time Ravnica came around we got some of the best legacy cards we've gotten in years. The power level of multicolor blocks is routinely high enough to get a couple cards into the format; which is something to say! Kolaghan's made it here for those getting ready to type furiously. I'm open minded to see what happens.

That said, they're probably going to be too careful. Last time they un-careful'd it broke Vintage, Legacy, and Modern in one go.


I'm thinking they'll also avoid the Charm/Command/Etc cycle for this block (which I think would be the highest probability of being high power.)

[Ace/Homebrew]

The upside of the Announcement Day reveal is that our prolonged stay in the return to the return to Ravnica ends with the conclusion of the Gatewatch saga and Nicol Bolas' schemes.

[Amon Amarth]

What the hell is with the name "Guilds of Ravnica"? It feels redundant and really basic. Could they not think of something better than that?

[bakofried]

What the hell is up with the name "Return to Ravnica?" Come on, if we're going to Ravnica we already know it's a return.

^Looks a bit silly.

Seriously folks, give it a chance. Cool stuff regularly shows up in Ravnica blocks.

[DarthVicious]

... as we reach the penultimate moment of the Gatewatch's story.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTnBVDKuNdI

[Von]

Well INN/RTR was the height of MTG popularity in recent history. WOTC want to recapture that. This the exact type of move a marketing team with no idea how/what made those sets popular likes to pull.

[Lord Seth]

When WotC started with revisiting planes, people were excited, but given how they turned the amazing Ravnica into a shitshow during the second run and made it all about Jace, Jace and Jace again while removing all elements which made the guilds and plane interresting, I doubt that this third installment is soooooo well received. I want to remind that the Zendikar rerun was also a total mess. They are out of ideas. Wouldn't be surprised at all, if this block is followed by another Mirrodin/Phyrexia spinI don't know what you're going on about "removing all elements which made the guilds and plane interesting", I thought they did a pretty good job of that. Return to Ravnica was a terrific set (Gatecrash and especially Dragon's Maze were a step down, admittedly), and Innistrad-RTR is considered one of the best Standards of all time. Unlike return to Zendikar, RTR was a smash success. It's the thing people point to when talking about how return blocks can work (well, that and Scars of Mirrodin).

As for making it all about Jace, that was pretty limited to the add-on novels. There was very little hint of that in the cards themselves.

[phonics]

as we reach the penultimate moment of the Gatewatch's story.
This I am excited about, though I wonder if this game survives another 10 years, will people that played standard now look at the Jacetice league with the same reverence as the original Brothers War to Invasion block characters have from people who got into the game back then?

They are probably just going to make phyrexia the new big bad since that thread has been conveniently left open, hopefully whatever fills the role of antagonist isnt just a one dimensional villain like bolas has been.

[Darkenslight]

It's a wildly popular plane that people constantly want to go back to. What's wrong with that?

FRankly, I'd rather visit Lorwyn or Theros again. Ravnica doesn't need this additional focus.

[Vissah]

Come on Golgari boyz bring in some good stuff for Dredge!!!

[Mr. Safety]

I would absolutely love a return to Lorwyn. If I remember correctly, it was wildly popular too.

[Barook]

When WotC started with revisiting planes, people were excited, but given how they turned the amazing Ravnica into a shitshow during the second run and made it all about Jace, Jace and Jace again while removing all elements which made the guilds and plane interresting, I doubt that this third installment is soooooo well received. I want to remind that the Zendikar rerun was also a total mess. They are out of ideas. Wouldn't be surprised at all, if this block is followed by another Mirrodin/Phyrexia spin
They don't have any other real villains left after Bolas is beaten, so they have to settle with Phyrexians (not that I mind too much). Eldrazi are a lost cause after two of the eldritch abomination titans gots BBQ'ed by an asspull and Emrakul was locked away because marketing said so. They were too ill-received the second time around to bring them back anytime soon.

The real problem with the Neo-Phyrexians is how OP the glistening oil is, given how easy it is for it to corrupt entire planes and Karn spread it over dozens, if not hundreds of planes.

[H]

I would absolutely love a return to Lorwyn. If I remember correctly, it was wildly popular too.

I don't think that is true, but I can't find a good source for any concrete data on sales from that time. This implies it, but lacks any real sources (https://www.echomtg.com/blog/post/45/the-number-of-magic-players-worldwide-by-year/). I recall playing at that time and it not seeming very popular. There are also some anecdotal sayings from MaRo about the sets just being too complex and not very popular.

Honestly, people just like good cards, I don't think the setting matters much. Both things really just help the other. Good cards don't save a bad setting, but good setting can't save bad cards. There are outliers, like Theros, where the setting and the cards pretty much sucked, but sales were still good, but I think that is the exception, not the rule.

[Mr. Safety]

Maybe I'm confusing how much I liked the set for how popular it was...it just seemed like the tribal synergies took off like wildfire. Yes, faeries was ultimately a drag to standard, but before that there was G/B elves, merfolk, and even kithkin that were competitive.

[H]

Maybe I'm confusing how much I liked the set for how popular it was...it just seemed like the tribal synergies took off like wildfire. Yes, faeries was ultimately a drag to standard, but before that there was G/B elves, merfolk, and even kithkin that were competitive.

I think it might have been a case of it being really popular with those it was popular with. But I think, in general, the block was not great for sales. I also think that these low sales were what made some cards, like Vendilion Clique, and especially Fulminator Mage "relatively" expensive when they started seeing Legacy/Vintage and Modern play, respectively. I think Lorowyn, the set itself, was reasonably popular, since it debuted Planeswalkers, but the rest of the block was large "under opened" especially by modern standards (although, obviously not Coldsnap-level).

Of course Wizards, no doubt, doesn't really care to disentangle the complex question of which lead to poor sales, the setting, the complexity issues, or the power-level. They'll just throw the baby out with the bathwater to be done with it. This is why I was rather surprised to see them go back to Dominaria, because Time Spiral block was not great for sales. Thing is, Dominaria has way more "history" behind it, where Lorowyn is just going to suffer for some relatively tame but ultimately poor decisions because it was One (Block) and Done. Perhaps though, if they can come up with a reasonable way to go back to a "tribal" block, they might be inclined to try again, but I'd be skeptical they wouldn't just go a new direction.

[Zombie]

I think it might have been a case of it being really popular with those it was popular with. But I think, in general, the block was not great for sales. I also think that these low sales were what made some cards, like Vendilion Clique, and especially Fulminator Mage "relatively" expensive when they started seeing Legacy/Vintage and Modern play, respectively. I think Lorowyn, the set itself, was reasonably popular, since it debuted Planeswalkers, but the rest of the block was large "under opened" especially by modern standards (although, obviously not Coldsnap-level).

Of course Wizards, no doubt, doesn't really care to disentangle the complex question of which lead to poor sales, the setting, the complexity issues, or the power-level. They'll just throw the baby out with the bathwater to be done with it. This is why I was rather surprised to see them go back to Dominaria, because Time Spiral block was not great for sales. Thing is, Dominaria has way more "history" behind it, where Lorowyn is just going to suffer for some relatively tame but ultimately poor decisions because it was One (Block) and Done. Perhaps though, if they can come up with a reasonable way to go back to a "tribal" block, they might be inclined to try again, but I'd be skeptical they wouldn't just go a new direction.

The power level was pretty damn high, though, if memory serves.

[H]

The power level was pretty damn high, though, if memory serves.

Yeah, it was pretty good, I was even playing Standard around that time. I think the high power-level of some stuff rubbed people the wrong way though, which eventually lead us to Zendikar and New Phyrexia, really...

[kombatkiwi]

Bitterblossom Cryptic Thoughtseize Ponder YEE
Don't forget Spellstutter, all the Merfolk shit, Scapeshift (not at the time though, obviously), Clique, Reveillark, Fulminator, Mutavault...

[Zombie]

Made a list of tournament playables from all the sets. These are just rares, so we're missing juicy stuff like Mulldrifter, Shriekmaw, basically all of G/B Elf Rock, Merfolk and Demigod Red and Elfball. Lorwyn was very easy, there are a couple sketchier picks in SHA/EVE.

Lorwyn: (23/80)
Tribelands (5)
Cloudthresher
Cryptic Command
Doran, the Siege Tower
Gaddock Teeg
Garruk Wildspeaker
Jace Beleren
Liliana Vess
Masked Admirers
Mirror Entity
Mistbind Clique
Primal Command
Profane Command
Scion of Oona
Sower of Temptation
Sygg, River Guide
Thorn of Amethyst
Thoughtseize
Wren's Run Packmaster

Morningtide: (12/50)
Bitterblossom
Chameleon Colossus
Countryside Crusher
Earwig Squad
Gilt-Lead Archdruid
Grimoire Thief
Murmuring Bosk
Mutavault
Reveillark
Rustic Clachan
Scapeshift
Vendilion Clique

Shadowmoor: (17-19/80)
Filterlands (5)
Demigod of Revenge
Deus of Calamity
Everlasting Torment
Fulminator Mage
Oversoul of Dusk
Prismatic Omen
Puppeteer Clique
Reflecting Pool
Runed Halo
Swans of Bryn Argoll
Sygg, River Cutthroat
Vexing Shusher
Wilt-Leaf Liege
Woodfall Primus


Eventide: (17/60)
Filterlands (5)
Archon of Justice
Call the Skybreaker
Cold-Eyed Selkie
Figure of Destiny
Glen Elendra Archmage
Hallowed Burial
Regal Force
Rise of the Hobgoblins
Stigma Lasher
Stillmoon Cavalier
Wake Thrasher
Worm Harvest

[PirateKing]

Focus always goes to the rares, because, yeah, they're good.
But it'd be criminal not to highlight stuff like Flickerwisp and Heritage Druid. Pretty much all the creatures that make Elf combo work are common or uncommon.

[Zombie]

Focus always goes to the rares, because, yeah, they're good.
But it'd be criminal not to highlight stuff like Flickerwisp and Heritage Druid. Pretty much all the creatures that make Elf combo work are common or uncommon.

It's not just that: there were a TON of midrange Red powerhouses and Lorwyn contained a ton of tribal lords at Uncommon.

Lorwyn:
Burrenton Forge-Tender, Cloudgoat Ranger, Knight of Meadowgrain, Makeshift Mannequin, Marsh Flitter, Imperious Perfect, Merrow Reejerey, Shriekmaw, Silvergill Adept, Vivid lands, Wizened Cenn, Wren's Run Vanquisher
AEthersnipe, Aquitect's Will, Eyeblight's Ending, Ingot Chewer, Lys Alana Huntmaster, Mournwhelk, Mulldrifter, Nameless Inversion, Oblivion Ring, Peppersmoke, Pestermite, Ponder, Spellstutter Sprite, Tarfire, Wispmare

Morningtide:
Heritage Druid, Offalsnout, Oona's Blackguard, Sage's Dousing, Warren Weirding, Wolf-Skull Shaman
Disperse, Distant Melody, Negate, Roar of the Crowd

Shadowmoor:
Ashenmoor Gouger, Beseech the Queen, Bloodmark Mentor, Boggart Ram-Gang, Cursecatcher, Firespout, Flame Javelin, Guttural Response, Kitchen Finks, Murderous Redcap, Plumeveil, Prison Term, Spectral Procession, Tattermunge Maniac, Torrent of Souls, Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers

Curse of Chains, Devoted Druid, Faerie Macabre, Farhaven Elf, Giantbaiting, Gleeful Sabotage, Manamorphose, Presence of Gond, Scar, Scarscale Ritual, Shield of the Oversoul, Silkbind Faerie, Smash to Smithereens

Eventide:
Duergar Hedge-Mage, Flickerwisp, Nucklavee, Unwilling Recruit
Beckon Appartition, Cenn's Enlistment, Flame Jab, Inside Out, Nettle Sentinel, Raven's Crime, Slippery Bogle, Snakeform, Unmake, Wickerbough Elder


The amount of "wow" cards did drop off, even if the twin block in itself was a house. It was the largest Standard format ever, so in addition to there being a ton of decks and nutty cards, well. Crap.

[Amazingxkcd]

mmmmhhhmmmm, more shocks reprints

[Mr. Safety]

The power level was pretty damn high, though, if memory serves.

Yes, tons of eternal impact and a fun standard. This was the golden age of Magic for me. The only thing that soured the community was the dominance of Faeries, which was replaced bye the dominance of Jund in Shards standard. Still, we're not talking Eldrazi winter, Affinity, or even Jace/Stoneforge dominance. I remember how big of a deal Volcanic Fallout was when it hit while faeries was the DTB. Balancing like that just doesn't happen anymore, sadly.

[H]

Yes, tons of eternal impact and a fun standard. This was the golden age of Magic for me. The only thing that soured the community was the dominance of Faeries, which was replaced bye the dominance of Jund in Shards standard. Still, we're not talking Eldrazi winter, Affinity, or even Jace/Stoneforge dominance. I remember how big of a deal Volcanic Fallout was when it hit while faeries was the DTB. Balancing like that just doesn't happen anymore, sadly.

Yeah, I mean, at the time, having recently gotten back into the game, I was playing Vintage and Standard. It didn't even feel bad or gross. But that is kind of my point. Mistakes were made with the power-level of a couple strategies in that time, which lead to a whole slew of subsequent strategies and the whole thing went south...which is kind of the point I was making, that Wizards is not really willing (or probably all that able) to disentangle what went wrong in that era. It's far easier to just say "Lorwyn wasn't a popular setting" and leave it at that, or point of some nebulous issue of "complexity" and move on. Not that MaRo isn't open to acknowledging mistakes, which is one of the few things I like about him, but the issue can often be pointing to some obvious thing and claiming that is the root of all the "problems." It is facile to say that the complexity of Lorwyn and Time Spiral were "issues" but you need to face a number of issues that made Standard less than idea in the years that followed. Oddly enough, the proof is in the pudding, since the issue of undesirable Standard environments reared it's head again more recently (and then again, prompting bans after bans), pointing to the fact of "complexity" not really being the root of what ails Standard and plausibly even the least of the issues at hand.

[Mr. Safety]

Yeah, I mean, at the time, having recently gotten back into the game, I was playing Vintage and Standard. It didn't even feel bad or gross. But that is kind of my point. Mistakes were made with the power-level of a couple strategies in that time, which lead to a whole slew of subsequent strategies and the whole thing went south...which is kind of the point I was making, that Wizards is not really willing (or probably all that able) to disentangle what went wrong in that era. It's far easier to just say "Lorwyn wasn't a popular setting" and leave it at that, or point of some nebulous issue of "complexity" and move on. Not that MaRo isn't open to acknowledging mistakes, which is one of the few things I like about him, but the issue can often be pointing to some obvious thing and claiming that is the root of all the "problems." It is facile to say that the complexity of Lorwyn and Time Spiral were "issues" but you need to face a number of issues that made Standard less than idea in the years that followed. Oddly enough, the proof is in the pudding, since the issue of undesirable Standard environments reared it's head again more recently (and then again, prompting bans after bans), pointing to the fact of "complexity" not really being the root of what ails Standard and plausibly even the least of the issues at hand.

Good post. If you were to summarize what makes an un/desirable standard environment, that would be a great way to talk about why it's failing now. I was playing Extended, Standard, and casual when Lorwyn was on the scene (EDH wasn't a thing yet in my area.) Extended fostered so many broken strategies at the time that Legacy was boring in comparison, at least how I remember it. Once extended become a smaller format, and eventually was replaced with Modern, it became easy to move over to Legacy (lol, it was easy then...duals were all at $100 or less, IIRC.)

Regardless, I think the plane was interesting and created a great environment. Tribal was obviously a thing, but there was also just Doran Rock, Boat Brew, Reveillark Blink, Seismic Swans. More than anything I think the format was accessible from a skill point of view (not necessarily a price point of view. Bitterblossom was an $80, Cryptics were $50.) Building tribal decks is kind of a rite of passage for beginning magic players, just because the learning curve is so easy and the strategy can be powerful. If I were to summarize why I want a return to Lorwyn, I would say it's based on my perception of how accessible standard was at the time.

[Zombie]

Good post. If you were to summarize what makes an un/desirable standard environment, that would be a great way to talk about why it's failing now. I was playing Extended, Standard, and casual when Lorwyn was on the scene (EDH wasn't a thing yet in my area.) Extended fostered so many broken strategies at the time that Legacy was boring in comparison, at least how I remember it. Once extended become a smaller format, and eventually was replaced with Modern, it became easy to move over to Legacy (lol, it was easy then...duals were all at $100 or less, IIRC.)

Regardless, I think the plane was interesting and created a great environment. Tribal was obviously a thing, but there was also just Doran Rock, Boat Brew, Reveillark Blink, Seismic Swans. More than anything I think the format was accessible from a skill point of view (not necessarily a price point of view. Bitterblossom was an $80, Cryptics were $50.) Building tribal decks is kind of a rite of passage for beginning magic players, just because the learning curve is so easy and the strategy can be powerful. If I were to summarize why I want a return to Lorwyn, I would say it's based on my perception of how accessible standard was at the time.

And Quick 'n Toast and Demigod Red, both of which were huge players. Hell, TS-Lor's "Big 3" RPS triangle was pretty much Faeries wtfbbqmurders Lark, Lark wtfbbqmurders the format, Demigod Red beats Faeries.

[Scott]

Well, we may know one card, and the set symbol, if this prerelease promo leak is authentic.

https://i.imgur.com/q8Py6BI.png

Macabre Hatchery 3:b::b:
Sorcery
Choose a creature card with converted mana cost of 1 in your graveyard, then do the same for a creature card with converted mana cost of 2 and 3. Return those cards to the battlefield.

"Variety is also the spice of death"
--Cevraya, Golgari shaman

[TheAmazingKitchen]

The "choose" wording means you can cast this even if you don't have 3 creatures to reanimate, correct?

[Nonex]

Correct, since the card doesn't target any of them.

[morgan_coke]

https://youtu.be/j_qvw0JrswA

Are the two chicks doing the interviewing in that clip streamers or mega-fans or something? Hasbro has to have someone semi-competent at marketing who's actually been on film or conducted an interview before they could have used instead.
That was below junior college quality level. And not the junior college for smart kids either.

[Lemnear]

Are the two chicks doing the interviewing in that clip streamers or mega-fans or something? Hasbro has to have someone semi-competent at marketing who's actually been on film or conducted an interview before they could have used instead.
That was below junior college quality level. And not the junior college for smart kids either.

Dunno, mate. Didn't do any reseach, but "semi-competent" is more like a credo for the company anyways. Since 2006, I struggle to understand the hire criterias some of their employees had anyways.

[mistercakes]

Good post. If you were to summarize what makes an un/desirable standard environment, that would be a great way to talk about why it's failing now. I was playing Extended, Standard, and casual when Lorwyn was on the scene (EDH wasn't a thing yet in my area.) Extended fostered so many broken strategies at the time that Legacy was boring in comparison, at least how I remember it. Once extended become a smaller format, and eventually was replaced with Modern, it became easy to move over to Legacy (lol, it was easy then...duals were all at $100 or less, IIRC.)

Regardless, I think the plane was interesting and created a great environment. Tribal was obviously a thing, but there was also just Doran Rock, Boat Brew, Reveillark Blink, Seismic Swans. More than anything I think the format was accessible from a skill point of view (not necessarily a price point of view. Bitterblossom was an $80, Cryptics were $50.) Building tribal decks is kind of a rite of passage for beginning magic players, just because the learning curve is so easy and the strategy can be powerful. If I were to summarize why I want a return to Lorwyn, I would say it's based on my perception of how accessible standard was at the time.

when lorwyn was standard legal:

bitterblossom was around 30 dollars roughly at its max. (unless if you were quoting 80/playset, then i apologize)

30 dollars was the price of a badlands, seas were about 60ish. (revised)

kithkin was a deck as well, B/G rock was also a great deck.

[Zombie]

I think the Lorwyn environment benefited massively from being at the intersection of many different things - Lorwyn/Shadowmoor had a high power level, the format itself was absurdly huge (~+30% extra card count), the design directions of Time Spiral and Lorwyn were very different - it was the border of old spells and new creatures without WotC having gotten into their heads that removal had to suck. Mana was good, but not too good, and there was good actual LD. Like, if you go through the CSnap-TS/PC/FS-Lor/Mor-Sha/Eve-10th card pool, it's absurd just how many things were good back then. Seriously, just name any one thing you want to do and go look through the card pool. It's nuts.
Spot removal? Great.
Sweepers? Yes.
Aggro beaters? Yup.
Raw draw? Hell yes.
Grindy value? You haven't lived until you've cast a Blink that reads "kill your creature / dodge your removal spell, I get two flying bears and draw 4". Or you could just drown them in Bitterblossom/Sacred Mesa tokens.
Countermagic? An embarassment of riches.
Want to play combo? You actually have options. Plural.
The format even had Trickbind for goodness' sake.
Manlands? Can do.
Utility lands in general? Mouth. Of. Ronom.
Mana ramp? Yup, plus interesting things to do with it.

[Mr. Safety]

when lorwyn was standard legal:

bitterblossom was around 30 dollars roughly at its max. (unless if you were quoting 80/playset, then i apologize)

30 dollars was the price of a badlands, seas were about 60ish. (revised)

kithkin was a deck as well, B/G rock was also a great deck.

I meant for a set, sorry if I was unclear.

[Mr. Safety]

I think the Lorwyn environment benefited massively from being at the intersection of many different things - Lorwyn/Shadowmoor had a high power level, the format itself was absurdly huge (~+30% extra card count), the design directions of Time Spiral and Lorwyn were very different - it was the border of old spells and new creatures without WotC having gotten into their heads that removal had to suck. Mana was good, but not too good, and there was good actual LD. Like, if you go through the CSnap-TS/PC/FS-Lor/Mor-Sha/Eve-10th card pool, it's absurd just how many things were good back then. Seriously, just name any one thing you want to do and go look through the card pool. It's nuts.
Spot removal? Great.
Sweepers? Yes.
Aggro beaters? Yup.
Raw draw? Hell yes.
Grindy value? You haven't lived until you've cast a Blink that reads "kill your creature / dodge your removal spell, I get two flying bears and draw 4". Or you could just drown them in Bitterblossom/Sacred Mesa tokens.
Countermagic? An embarassment of riches.
Want to play combo? You actually have options. Plural. The format even had Trickbind for goodness' sake.
Manlands? Can do.
Utility lands in general? Mouth. Of. Ronom.
Mana ramp? Yup, plus interesting things to do with it.

Totally agree. Jesus, I still try to improve on mono-red elementals occasionally, just because I loved it so much! Not that I would play it competitively, but man, so much fun for me.

[morgan_coke]

I think the Lorwyn environment benefited massively from being at the intersection of many different things - Lorwyn/Shadowmoor had a high power level, the format itself was absurdly huge (~+30% extra card count), the design directions of Time Spiral and Lorwyn were very different - it was the border of old spells and new creatures without WotC having gotten into their heads that removal had to suck. Mana was good, but not too good, and there was good actual LD. Like, if you go through the CSnap-TS/PC/FS-Lor/Mor-Sha/Eve-10th card pool, it's absurd just how many things were good back then. Seriously, just name any one thing you want to do and go look through the card pool. It's nuts.
Spot removal? Great.
Sweepers? Yes.
Aggro beaters? Yup.
Raw draw? Hell yes.
Grindy value? You haven't lived until you've cast a Blink that reads "kill your creature / dodge your removal spell, I get two flying bears and draw 4". Or you could just drown them in Bitterblossom/Sacred Mesa tokens.
Countermagic? An embarassment of riches.
Want to play combo? You actually have options. Plural.
The format even had Trickbind for goodness' sake.
Manlands? Can do.
Utility lands in general? Mouth. Of. Ronom.
Mana ramp? Yup, plus interesting things to do with it.

Totally correct. Now of course, only one thing can be good at a time, because fuck you, buy more packs to get the one good thing.

[Aggro_zombies]

Are the two chicks doing the interviewing in that clip streamers or mega-fans or something? Hasbro has to have someone semi-competent at marketing who's actually been on film or conducted an interview before they could have used instead.
That was below junior college quality level. And not the junior college for smart kids either.
Magic the Amateuring is a show on...Twitch, I think? So they're sort of streamers.

WotC has picked up Magic content producers to do things for them in the past - Numot and Gaby Spartz have done coverage, I think, and I want to say they've had The Professor from TCC do something too. It makes way more sense to hire fans to do stuff than to hire professionals or use in-house assets because fans are an inexhaustible resource, can be hired and fired at will, and will be enthusiastic about your product without needing to act.

[Lemnear]

Magic the Amateuring is a show on...Twitch, I think? So they're sort of streamers.

WotC has picked up Magic content producers to do things for them in the past - Numot and Gaby Spartz have done coverage, I think, and I want to say they've had The Professor from TCC do something too. It makes way more sense to hire fans to do stuff than to hire professionals or use in-house assets because fans are an inexhaustible resource, can be hired and fired at will, and will be enthusiastic about your product without needing to act.

Yet they are unprofessional. It's not that being a NE Patriots fan qualifies fans to Interview players for a news station or such either.

If WotC opts to make MTG an eSports brand, you can't let amateurs do your quintessential PR tasks but hire professional commentators and interviewers.

[MorphBerlin]

They don't have any other real villains left after Bolas is beaten, so they have to settle with Phyrexians (not that I mind too much). Eldrazi are a lost cause after two of the eldritch abomination titans gots BBQ'ed by an asspull and Emrakul was locked away because marketing said so. They were too ill-received the second time around to bring them back anytime soon.

The real problem with the Neo-Phyrexians is how OP the glistening oil is, given how easy it is for it to corrupt entire planes and Karn spread it over dozens, if not hundreds of planes.

Did I miss soemthing? When was Bolas beaten by the Gatewach?

[kombatkiwi]

Did I miss soemthing? When was Bolas beaten by the Gatewach?

He wasn't,I think Barook is just speculating as to what wotc will do when that does eventually happen

[Barook]

Did I miss soemthing? When was Bolas beaten by the Gatewach?
Considering the 3rd RtRtR expansion is considered the climax of the Bolas arc, what else are they going to do? They can't lose one of their most popular planes (in the same way they ruined Zendikar with the Eldrazi war), so the Gatewatch has to win. I expect Bolas to be beaten, with a potential chance to bring him back many years later. IIRC, only his body was destroyed by Umezawa back then, while Bolas spirit was still around before he was brought back via time rift shenanigans. And Ravnica has this weird ghost thing going for it.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Considering the 3rd RtRtR expansion is considered the climax of the Bolas arc, what else are they going to do? They can't lose one of their most popular planes (in the same way they ruined Zendikar with the Eldrazi war), so the Gatewatch has to win. I expect Bolas to be beaten, with a potential chance to bring him back many years later. IIRC, only his body was destroyed by Umezawa back then, while Bolas spirit was still around before he was brought back via time rift shenanigans. And Ravnica has this weird ghost thing going for it.
Bolas wins, magic ends, and hasbro abolishes the reserved list. Then in a year we're playing Standard with Alpha2, 1002 Arabian Nights, and Antwoquities.

[Rationalist]

Antwoquities.

I'm very on board with having a set named Antwoquities.

[maharis]

Yet they are unprofessional. It's not that being a NE Patriots fan qualifies fans to Interview players for a news station or such either.

If WotC opts to make MTG an eSports brand, you can't let amateurs do your quintessential PR tasks but hire professional commentators and interviewers.

Maria Bartholdi is a professional TV producer. I suspect she was just playing along with Meghan, who just sounds like Maro to me in her mannerisms so who cares.

I also would assume the directive was to be kitschy, based on Wizards' past dalliances like Walking the Planes. They seem to want to appear as though they are not taking themselves too seriously.

[WarMachinePrime]

They seem to want to appear as though they are not taking themselves too seriously.

In my humble opinion, I think that is a big part of the problem at WotC. It should be natural, not forced and scripted. We will say I'm not a fan. Just my 2 cents.

[Barook]

They seem to want to appear as though they are not taking themselves too seriously.
To be taken seriously, you need to have a certain level of professionality. Since WotC doesn't have that, they go for the wacky approach instead. E.g. when they did the Dominaria history review during one of the PT/GP (?) streams, all inconsistencies could be brushed off as "we're just joking". I'm pretty sure they don't even know their own lore anymore expect for rough details.

And nobody who cares about the image of the company on a professional level would allow Maro's cringe-worthy, hyperactive rampages about new sets to air.

[Lemnear]

To be taken seriously, you need to have a certain level of professionality. Since WotC doesn't have that, they go for the wacky approach instead. E.g. when they did the Dominaria history review during one of the PT/GP (?) streams, all inconsistencies could be brushed off as "we're just joking". I'm pretty sure they don't even know their own lore anymore expect for rough details.

And nobody who cares about the image of the company on a professional level would allow Maro's cringe-worthy, hyperactive rampages about new sets to air.

I agree.

You can present a product in a lighthearted way without looking like a wierdo and somewhat like an idiot. The product has to be fun, not the people presenting it

[WarMachinePrime]

To be taken seriously, you need to have a certain level of professionality. Since WotC doesn't have that, they go for the wacky approach instead. E.g. when they did the Dominaria history review during one of the PT/GP (?) streams, all inconsistencies could be brushed off as "we're just joking". I'm pretty sure they don't even know their own lore anymore expect for rough details.

And nobody who cares about the image of the company on a professional level would allow Maro's cringe-worthy, hyperactive rampages about new sets to air.


I agree.

You can present a product in a lighthearted way without looking like a wierdo and somewhat like an idiot. The product has to be fun, not the people presenting it

Agreed to both of you. :smile:

There are some serious flaws in the management of WotC. For a game I truly love and have for nearly 25 years now its sad to see it abused and fouled in front of your eyes. I hope a change will come.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Convoke returns

https://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/169/236/636710559974499932.jpg

16/16 Indestructible Wurm for :7::g::g::g:


Pack art shows Ral Zarek

[ReAnimator]

Wow the biggest creature ever in magic! bigger than an eldrazi titan! whoa!

and it's a big wurm? that lives on a world that is completely covered in city? how does that work? where does it go?

Flavour and excitement fail imo

Every time they break the "biggest" something record it should be a big deal and get you hyped. Emerakul 1.0 certainly did that. Big wurms? Meh.

[Lemnear]

Flavour and excitement fail imo

Every time they break the "biggest" something record it should be a big deal and get you hyped. Emerakul 1.0 certainly did that. Big wurms? Meh.

I agree. Eldrazi Titans being outsized by random non-Legend worms feels totally off

[Hanni]

The triple green is a bit unfortunate... I could have seen this spawn a sort of Spanish Inquisition style deck that floods the board with 0cc creatures to convoke out a big wurm or two, but GGG is pretty restrictive. I'm not sure Lotus Petals and Mox Opals alone would get the job done.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Wow the biggest creature ever in magic! bigger than an eldrazi titan! whoa!

and it's a big wurm? that lives on a world that is completely covered in city? how does that work? where does it go?
It has a condo next to Worldspine Wurm...

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

It has a condo next to Worldspine Wurm...

Thing is, most mages are STILL priced out of the Wurm District.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

"it's a giant wurm with convoke"
"Oh, we're reprinting Autocothian Wurm?"
"No, this one is bigger! Actually I mean smaller, it only costs 10"

[ReAnimator]

The triple green is a bit unfortunate... I could have seen this spawn a sort of Spanish Inquisition style deck that floods the board with 0cc creatures to convoke out a big wurm or two, but GGG is pretty restrictive. I'm not sure Lotus Petals and Mox Opals alone would get the job done.

Burning Tree Emissary and Hidden Herbalists are sort of free, you just have to pay up front. Still not good enough i can't imagine.

[Hanni]

Burning Tree Emissary and Hidden Herbalists are sort of free, you just have to pay up front. Still not good enough i can't imagine.

I mean, there are options, like Springleaf Drum and Manamorphose I guess, but I'm just not sure how good that would actually be. Being in green and makes sense since you would want to run Glimpse of Nature, but GGG is still a stretch.

[Ace/Homebrew]

I don't think it's Legacy playable... but if you want to go down that rabbit hole, there's always Gaea's Cradle and Elvish Spirit Guide.

[Fox]

It doesn't trample. It's not unblockable. It's not playable. :laugh:

[MorphBerlin]

Wow that is one hell of a boring card and flavour fail....

[Zulabnar]

Wow that is one hell of a boring card and flavour fail....

MArit Lage (token) seems pretty easier to casta :P

[Poron]

Mana doesn’t matter for a fattie. They all come down for 2U

How can this shit not trample? A Squirrel can block finely that?

[tsabo_tavoc]

Mana doesn’t matter for a fattie. They all come down for 2U

How can this shit not trample? A Squirrel can block finely that?

Except for Erratic Explosion, Draco still has not been outclassed :laugh:

[Mr. Safety]

The triple green is a bit unfortunate... I could have seen this spawn a sort of Spanish Inquisition style deck that floods the board with 0cc creatures to convoke out a big wurm or two, but GGG is pretty restrictive. I'm not sure Lotus Petals and Mox Opals alone would get the job done.

Play Greater Gargadon so you have 8x super cheap big boys. Suspend for R, sac all of those Kobolds. BOOM.

[Zombie]

Wow the biggest creature ever in magic! bigger than an eldrazi titan! whoa!

and it's a big wurm? that lives on a world that is completely covered in city? how does that work? where does it go?

Flavour and excitement fail imo

Every time they break the "biggest" something record it should be a big deal and get you hyped. Emerakul 1.0 certainly did that. Big wurms? Meh.

As far as impact goes, Progenitus is still my favourite as a flavour home run of nonsensically bomby creatures.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=179496&type=card

Everything about the card is epic. The art inspires awe, the flavour text is just right. Protection from everything works for the plane made flesh.

[Barook]

It could be worse - it could be a giant phallic wurm like Armada Wurm.

[jmlima]

...Protection from everything works for the plane made flesh.

Except edits or non-targetted removal.

[morgan_coke]

Except edits or non-targetted removal.

Edict your edit bro.

[Barook]

Some of the new mechanics are in, from the Twitch livestream (copied from Reddit):


Selesnya: Convoke- (Only returning mechanic)

Dimir: Surveil- Surveil is like scry but instead of putting on bottom of library, you put it into your graveyard.

Boros: Mentor- When a creature with Mentor attacks, you put a +1/+1 counter on an attacking creature with less power.

Golgari: Undergrowth- Undergrowth abilities care about the number of dead creatures in your graveyard.

Izzet: Jump-Start- You can cast instants and sorceries with Jump-Start from your graveyard by discarding a card, paying the mana cost and exiling the Jump-started card.

Surveil might be cool, depending on the cards. Jump-Start looks like a Flashback and Retrace had a baby - not really excited about that one, but it might be cheap enough to matter.

Mentor is straight up garbage (nothing new when it comes to RW cards) and Undergrowth sounds underwhelming.

[Aggro_zombies]

I'm sincerely hoping most Jump-Start cards have higher CMCs than Jump-Start costs, not just because of the issues with power level of having a more or less strictly worse flashback in the set, but also because the mechanic fuels itself, so it would be neat if you could make mini storm chains with it.

The others are underwhelming, but then so were all the mechanics from the last Ravnica block. I think in post-NWO Magic, they've shown that the more mechanics you add to the set, the simpler all of those mechanics need to be individually in order to keep complexity down.

Either way, my EDH Dredge player self likes the idea of the Dimir and Golgari mechanics since both will be good in my Sidisi deck.

[Begle1]

So Jump-Start is just Flashback with "Discard a card" added on as a cost?

[Bosque]

Surveil seems like it could be very good depending on if any pushed cards have it. Plays well with Threshhold, Snapcaster, Zombie Fish, etc.

[Lemnear]

So Jump-Start is just Flashback with "Discard a card" added on as a cost?

And the "flashback" cost isnt necessarily the same as the cards cost. Its not unlikely that clunky spells get cheaper "flashback".

Jump-Start has to be watched closely as it works as enabler for Madness and Reanimator

[Barook]

Some FNM promos/other promos got leaked:

https://i.redd.it/onknwtngnoj11.jpg

Card infos can be found here (https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/9c62dd/grn_fnm_and_other_promos/)

The only one that struck me as mildly interesting was the new Emmara:

Emmara, Soul of the Accord :g::w:
Legendary Creature - Elf Cleric
When this becomes tapped, create a 1/1 white creature token with lifelink.
2/2

Not sure about the creature token type yet. She can be used to create tokens with Birchlore Ranger and Heritage Druid, although that might be too cute.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Some FNM promos/other promos got leaked:

https://i.redd.it/onknwtngnoj11.jpg

Card infos can be found here (https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/9c62dd/grn_fnm_and_other_promos/)

The only one that struck me as mildly interesting was the new Emmara:

Emmara, Soul of the Accord :g::w:
Legendary Creature - Elf Cleric
When this becomes tapped, create a 1/1 white creature token with lifelink.
2/2

Not sure about the creature token type yet. She can be used to create tokens with Birchlore Ranger and Heritage Druid, although that might be too cute.
I think it will see some play in modern.

[Barook]

Official spoilers are out:

http://mythicspoiler.com/newspoilers.html

Aside from Emmara and a reprint of Narcomoeba (at rare, what the fuck, Wizards?), there's also a Goblin Rabblemaster variant that might be slightly weaker, but still playable:

http://mythicspoiler.com/grn/cards/legionwarboss1.jpg

Edit:

http://mythicspoiler.com/grn/cards/underrealmlich1.jpg

I initially dismissed it, but being a replacement effect allows for fun times with stuff like Gitrog Monster or Sylvan Library. Being vulnerable to Bolt at 5 mana still sucks, though.

[Fox]

I don't think I'd call Lich soft to Bolt given the pseudo-regenerate ability. While totally unplayable, would have been funny with Brainstorm...take best 3 of top 9, put 2 back, mill them and draw anew.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I don't think I'd call Lich soft to Bolt given the pseudo-regenerate ability. While totally unplayable, would have been funny with Brainstorm...take best 3 of top 9, put 2 back, mill them and draw anew.
Some asshole is already siding it into their Puzzlebox EDH deck right now.

[rufus]

...

I initially dismissed it, but being a replacement effect allows for fun times with stuff like Gitrog Monster or Sylvan Library. Being vulnerable to Bolt at 5 mana still sucks, though.

That ability is pretty strong with anything that contains the word "draw". Stuff like Thought Scour, Faithless Looting, Street Wraith, Brainstorm ... Elvish Visionary, Glimpse of Nature, Leovold, Emissary of Trest, Jace, Vrynn's Prodigy, Deep Analysis, Daretti, Scrap Savant, Jace the Mindsculptor ... and so on.

The creature types - elf, zombie, and shaman are also potentially relevant.

Even so, it's not legacy playable at 5cc, and not worth cheating into play.

[alvoi]

Maybe it can be played in some sort of Sultai Nic-Fit?

[Fox]

Maybe it can be played in some sort of Sultai Nic-Fit?

I think the problem is that Scarab God is just better at 5cmc, and also ups the blue count. Pretty stiff competition on the green side from Titania and Nissa of the 5/5s. Maybe it comes in from the board if Swagtusk is the wrong card to leave in? In just green I think you also have to consider going to 6 mana for Carnage Tyrant dino.

[MorphBerlin]

Wow Underrealm Lich is a "designed-for-EDH"-Card if I ever saw one. He is gonna be an instant Staple in all the GBx GY decks

[Echelon]

Unfortunately it's a no-no for Nic Fit. Too delicate for its CMC.

[Aggro_zombies]

How does that card work with Dredge? I assume since they're both replacement effects, you get to pick which one you want to use?

[mistercakes]

The Johnny in me just wants to make a lich/gitrog monster deck.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

How does that card work with Dredge? I assume since they're both replacement effects, you get to pick which one you want to use?

Exactly. You control both, so you can apply them in any order you wish. The draw will be replaced and the one you didn't choose won't happen. You will have to do one though: Unlike dredge this isn't a choice so if you choose not to dredge you will have to use the lich's ability.

[ReAnimator]

This thing might be fun as a one of in something with Anglers:

https://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/270/710/200/283/636714536353947568.jpeg

Might be better than collective brutality some times.

[MorphBerlin]

This thing might be fun as a one of in something with Anglers:

https://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/270/710/200/283/636714536353947568.jpeg

Might be better than collective brutality some times.

2 is insanely more than 1 in Legacy and C.Brutality is already played close to 0% competitively

[Mr. Safety]

This thing might be fun as a one of in something with Anglers:

https://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/270/710/200/283/636714536353947568.jpeg

Might be better than collective brutality some times.

If by 'some times' you mean 'never', then I agree. Brutality allows flexibility by killing small dudes (Delver, D&T), attacking their hand, and getting free synergy by discarding something you want in the graveyard to get a drain for 2 (Reanimator, Pox.) It isn't even close, and as already mentioned, there are really only 2 decks that even use Brutality, those being Br reanimator and Pox. You see it occasionally in Reanimator Depths and other fringe decks, but it isn't a staple...and it's way better than this other card.

[mistercakes]

I don't think it's legacy playable but it could be interesting when used with brainstorm/Ponder.

Unfortunately I don't think it can push other cards out of existing builds.

Always happy to be wrong about new cards though.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Nothing really good in today's spoilers.
Just sharing this cause it shows hybrid mana and split cards are back.

https://i.imgur.com/DJ9QMbP.png

[chezJacques]

Also an insanely good limited card.

I wish they at least spoiled a rare/mythic every day instead of just some commons & uncommons.

[Mr. Safety]

I really like the guild watermarks on some of the basic lands, very pretty. I feel like Necrotic Wound might be playable: it's cheap (B), instant, gives -x/-x, exiles instead of going to the graveyard, and has synergy with anything that fills its own graveyard with dudes. I see this as a direct relation to Stitcher's Supplier, which is already seeing some play. Narcomoeba reprint confirms they are toying with Dredge being a thing. Hell, you can play Supplier, Necrotic Wound, and Narcomoeba in standard.

Conclave's Tribunal having convoke makes it quite a bit better than otherwise. Getting an Oblivion Ring effect for cheap seems very good, especially when it doesn't get hit with Abrupt Decay. It could be a very good way for token decks to deal with problematic issues.

[Barook]

Nothing really good in today's spoilers.
Just sharing this cause it shows hybrid mana and split cards are back.

https://i.imgur.com/DJ9QMbP.png
Hybrid mana was confirmed recently on Maro's blog, so no surprises here.

But man, the latest from looks goddamn ugly on split cards. As somebody pointed out on Twitter, using the deathtouch side on Goblin Chainwhirler is a one-sided wrath. And since it's hybrid, it works with either splash.

Jump-Start looks like overcosted garbage. :1::r::r: for a card-neutral sorcery-speed Shock? Really, Wizards?

[Dice_Box]

Fuck, that's one ugly piece of cardboard.

[Aggro_zombies]

Yeah, not a huge fan of NuBorderTM with split cards. The big blank spaces look pretty goofy.

One thing I noticed from that card specifically: normally, generic split cards follow a naming convention of [blank] and [blank], where the two are linked as some kind of commonly known phrase. I'm not sure how "Status and Statue" are linked. Is the link supposed to be that they sound similar? That's going to be a nightmare for clear communication, especially given how many players I've met over the years either have thick accents or limited vocabularies (I was playing EDH last week and had a guy pronounce "Inundate" three different ways in the span of two minutes, none of which were correct).

[Kage]

Looks like all the UBR cards will be basic rehash of some staple cards, with surveil instead of scry and jumpstart instead of flashback, considering they have already spoiled:

Dissolve with surveil
Unsummon with surveil
Think twice with jumpstart

etc etc

[Barook]

Looks like all the UBR cards will be basic rehash of some staple cards, with surveil instead of scry and jumpstart instead of flashback, considering they have already spoiled:

Dissolve with surveil
Unsummon with surveil
Think twice with jumpstart

etc etc
WotC has been creatively bankrupt for quite a while now. Them doing boring junk by the books isn't too suprising anymore. Shocklands, guildgates, guildleaders, etc.

The whole thing just feels like a soulless money grab based on the name alone. Unless they bring in some real bombs, I could see RtRtR fall below their sale expectations.

[morgan_coke]

You know, for some reason, I was thinking the B/G card had flashback on the putrefy half, which would have made it a decent-ish card. But it doesn't. It's just terrible.

The current philosophy of "mass removal costs five mana, flexible target removal costs four mana, single target removal costs three mana" combined with "creatures strongker! DuH Dur dur dur!" Is just going to keep leading to awful Standards over and over. I'm 90% sure red shock flashback(but new!) costs that much because they know with the complete garbage removal options available they still have issues with hard aggro.

I mean, fuck, just reprint Loxodon Hierarch and Farseek if you're that worried about red being a problem.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Think twice with jumpstart
Speaking of...

https://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/270/748/200/283/636716730399205266.png

I don't Dredge, so I'm not confident in my ability to evaluate the card for that deck. Is it worthy of inclusion? I assume it works the 'good way' when cast from the graveyard (pay :1::u:, discard Golgari Grave-Troll. Then replace the draw by dredging 6 cards).

If not for Legacy, maybe for Modern?

[rufus]

... I assume it works the 'good way' when cast from the graveyard..

Definitely works that way. Though I'm not sure dredge is willing to pay 2 mana for anything.

[Darkenslight]

Nothing really good in today's spoilers.
Just sharing this cause it shows hybrid mana and split cards are back.

https://i.imgur.com/DJ9QMbP.png

No Fuse == Total trash /s.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Definitely works that way. Though I'm not sure dredge is willing to pay 2 mana for anything.

Modern dredge pays 3 all the time for the flashback of Faithless Looting, but just draw 1 for 2 mana with no free discard AFTER the draw isn't nearly as good as draw 2 then discard 2. I don't think this will see play, but Jump Start has a lot of promise.

[Aggro_zombies]

The bigger issue is that red is way better for Dredge than blue in Modern because of the lack of Breakthrough. Insolent Neonate, Faithless Looting, and Cathartic Reunion are all better than this.

I wouldn't expect anything big out of the Jump-Start commons or uncommons. The way they design sets these days means the vast majority of the Constructed-quality cards are at rare or mythic.

[Lava Snacks]

I must be total trash because I kinda like the new borders on the split card, in a weird way. I think just because it looks like an ugly tryhard business card, so is an adulty contrast to BADASS kiddie cgi art and UNIQUE limited edition borders.

https://cdn1.mtggoldfish.com/images/gf/Spell%2BPierce%2B%255BMS3%255D.jpg

[Cire]

Looks like all the UBR cards will be basic rehash of some staple cards, with surveil instead of scry and jumpstart instead of flashback, considering they have already spoiled:

Dissolve with surveil
Unsummon with surveil
Think twice with jumpstart

etc etc

I am positive that this board can guess most of the cards with new mechanics given how WOTC designs modern cards.

[Fox]

Isn't it supposed to be Status//Statute? I don't think Status and Statues have much in common???

[Lord Seth]

Some FNM promos/other promos got leaked:

https://i.redd.it/onknwtngnoj11.jpg

Card infos can be found here (https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/9c62dd/grn_fnm_and_other_promos/)

The only one that struck me as mildly interesting was the new Emmara:

Emmara, Soul of the Accord :g::w:
Legendary Creature - Elf Cleric
When this becomes tapped, create a 1/1 white creature token with lifelink.
2/2

Not sure about the creature token type yet. She can be used to create tokens with Birchlore Ranger and Heritage Druid, although that might be too cute.Well, I'm just glad they printed an Emmara whose abilities actually fit with her character, unlike the original card.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Isn't it supposed to be Status//Statute? I don't think Status and Statues have much in common???
I think Aggro_zombies had it correct. The words are only 1 letter off of each other.

[Barook]

Well, I'm just glad they printed an Emmara whose abilities actually fit with her character, unlike the original card.
Emmara was originally Voice of Resurgence until they pulled this weird switcheroo that gave her a gigantic ass because they needed the guild champions at rare and greed is a bitch.

[Barook]

New spoilers are out:

http://mythicspoiler.com/grn/cards/responseresurgence.jpg http://mythicspoiler.com/grn/cards/findfinality.jpg http://mythicspoiler.com/grn/cards/nivmizzetparun.jpg

Quite disappointing.

[BenBleiweiss]

Say hello to your new format staple
https://227rsi2stdr53e3wto2skssd7xe-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Assassins_Trophy_EN.png

[mistercakes]

nice to be able to kill a jace for GB.

[Poron]

:eek:

[PirateKing]

Wow

Abrupt Decay still has a place, but wow.
Hits Jace and lands.
Anguished Unmaking was a let down, but this could be a new Vindicate.

[Mr. Safety]

It blows my mind that WOTC can print incredible, cheap removal like Abrupt Decay, Fatal Push, and now Assassin's Trophy, but somehow still think that countermagic needs to cost 3 mana.

EDIT: Is this enough to make Eva-Green a deck again?

[CptHaddock]

EDIT: Is this enough to make Eva-Green a deck again?

Lmfao why would you want to ever want to play BG suicide when you can now play brainstorm in your UB suicide deck?

[Barook]

For what it's worth, this thing also goes on Isochron Scepter - there are just that many basics before they run out of them.


It blows my mind that WOTC can print incredible, cheap removal like Abrupt Decay, Fatal Push, and now Assassin's Trophy, but somehow still think that countermagic needs to cost 3 mana.
That's mainly because people feel bad that their stuff gets countered before it could even hit the battlefield.

[Mr. Safety]

Lmfao why would you want to ever want to play BG suicide when you can now play brainstorm in your UB suicide deck?

Mana stability? *shrug* I'm old.

[Scott]

Looks amazing to me.

Nice design, too, hitting lands but not being great for mana denial because of the second part. I mean, blue tempo doesn't want the card because of that, right?

[H]

Well, now we really know why Deathrite had to bite the bullet...

[colo]

"... an opponent controls", meh. Where's the fun in that? I took great pleasure the interaction of Abrupt Decay, Misdirection, True-Name Nemesis and Leovold, Emissary of Trest.

[Lava Snacks]

A return to Ravnica apparently always means a :b::g: removal bomb followed by a :b::g: creature bomb, so gird your loins for a triple hybrid mana 1/3 Deathrite with deathtouch.

[rufus]

It blows my mind that WOTC can print incredible, cheap removal like Abrupt Decay, Fatal Push, and now Assassin's Trophy, but somehow still think that countermagic needs to cost 3 mana.
...

They're printing lots of stuff like Ravenous Chupacabra or Walking Ballista where there's a big difference between the two. That 'basic land' drawback is also no joke.

[Mr. Safety]

They're printing lots of stuff like Ravenous Chupacabra or Walking Ballista where there's a big difference between the two. That 'basic land' drawback is also no joke.

I agree, it's why Path to Exile never usurped Swords to Plowshares. It's just laughable that we can now kill anything for BG but we can't have UU: Counter target spell.

Hell I'd take U: counter target spell with converted mana 1 or less, or some other fixed Mental Misstep. The point I'm making is that if we can have color-intensive cards with a slight drawback for incredible removal, we should be able to have color-intensive cards with a slight drawback for incredible countermagic.

[morgan_coke]

Say hello to your new format staple
https://227rsi2stdr53e3wto2skssd7xe-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Assassins_Trophy_EN.png

I'm 90% sure the reason this can hit lands is because WotC has realized what a problem non-basics in general, and Tron in particular are in Modern, and how few ways to deal with them effectively there are for most decks. Same reason we had the one mana red Tron hoser in the last set.

[H]

I'm 90% sure the reason this can hit lands is because WotC has realized what a problem non-basics in general, and Tron in particular are in Modern, and how few ways to deal with them effectively there are for most decks. Same reason we had the one mana red Tron hoser in the last set.

Yeah, we gain from Modern's dysfunction. It card will be something of a beast with Snapcaster in Modern, if you can start on Birds or Hierarchic and have it live...

[alvoi]

Okay I think this is auto-include in Nic-Fit in the place of Abrupt Decay. We already know that in that deck PtE is better than plow. This can hit also lands and permanents with cmc > 3 (and for permanents with lesser cmc Nic-Fit already has Pernicious Deed). So the only problem is the counterability, but I think this will replace it anyway. In other decks I don't think so though, maybe they will be split but Decay is just better in a lot of situations (for example, against Counterbalance).

[MorphBerlin]

Very interesting card, finally a good non-white non-narrow solution to Angler and a solution to Jace thats not a redblast or clunky like Maelstrom Pulse while having the upside of dealing with any oher permanent over 3cmc as well. It is pretty pushed as an instant so I think it could have quite an impact on legacy maybe a litte bit less than fatal push.

I like their new design to deal with non-basic hate tbh. Wasteland is a miserable magic card and the way they design Path, Flild ais something that really makes people play basics instead of greedy mana bases (not the bullshit people say in the B&R Threat like blood moon is a check for greeedy mana bases)

[Barook]

http://mythicspoiler.com/grn/cards/bountyagent.jpg

Cheaper than Mangara and a better beater, but also way more limited in what it does, not to mention the lack of synergy with Karakas.

https://twitter.com/Griselpuff/status/1039204946149818369

I really like this tweet - both the nickname "Ass Trophy" and that this card is going to cause alot of reevaluation.

That said, I don't get the flavor of this card. Apparently, some Golgari assassin killed some Azorius bigwig - so far, so good. Killing creatures and Planeswalkers makes sense, given the name. Artifacts can be destroyed, so that gets a pass as well.

But what about intangible objects like enchantments? How do you "kill" a Blood Moon? Same goes for the lands - what are the thoughts of the assassin?


"Hell yeah, I'm going to murder the shit outta that mountain!"

:eyebrow:

[MorphBerlin]

http://mythicspoiler.com/grn/cards/bountyagent.jpg
Same goes for the lands - what are the thoughts of the assassin?


It can't kill lands!? (agree on the enchantments though)

[Barook]

It can't kill lands!? (agree on the enchantments though)
Way to shorten my post to alter the context. I've commented with one line on Bounty Hunter, the rest starting with Bob Huang's tweet is about Ass Trophy.

[MorphBerlin]

Way to shorten my post to alter the context. I've commented with one line on Bounty Hunter, the rest starting with Bob Huang's tweet is about Ass Trophy.

Hups, should actually click the link next time.

I think the impact on legacy is exagerated, its just another good removal.

[Hanni]

The card is good and will see play, but Bob is definitely overreacting.

Giving away free basics is card disadvantage. There's a reason Path to Exile doesn't see that much play in Legacy. Granted, being able to destroy any permanent at instant speed for two mana is very good, but the drawback is not irrelevant. The basic also comes into play untapped, so there's also a potential loss in tempo in addition to the card disadvantage.

It's also counterable, so it's not like this replaces Abrupt Decay. It's a great card, and will certainly have a couple copies mixed into the 75 of the various BGx stews, but it's not as game changing now as Abrupt Decay was when it was first spoiled.

[rufus]

...
Cheaper than Mangara and a better beater, but also way more limited in what it does, not to mention the lack of synergy with Karakas.
...
Killing creatures and Planeswalkers makes sense, given the name. Artifacts can be destroyed, so that gets a pass as well.

But what about intangible objects like enchantments? How do you "kill" a Blood Moon? Same goes for the lands - what are the thoughts of the assassin?
...


I don't think it will see a lot of play.

The legendary enchantments are the flip land cycle (legion's landing), the oath cycle (oath of nissa), the shrine cycle (honden of whatever), gods stuff (indestructible or artifacts), a cycle of 'kamigawa flip' creatures (erayo), and genju of the realm.

Some of that stuff does make sense as destructible.

[PirateKing]

:laugh: guys Barook was making two distinct points.
1) new Mangara card.
2) implied Assassin's Trophy is a tangible object turned to stone by a Gorgon gaze, which carries an odd flavor when you target a Swamp or something.

As far as Bounty Agent, I see the D&T thread lighting up about it. My question is what targets do they have in mind? Any creature is better served by Karakas, so what Legendary Artifacts or Enchantments are so bothersome? Beyond Jitte I can't think of anything.

[NegatorITA]

my god, that removal looks like nonsense... I would have printed in :w::b: olors rather than this but hey...
I wonder if now BUG will be surpassing Grixis :frown: having such a powerful card as catch all is quite the thing...

[Purple Blood]

my god, that removal looks like nonsense... I would have printed in :w::b: olors rather than this but hey...
I wonder if now BUG will be surpassing Grixis :frown: having such a powerful card as catch all is quite the thing...

This is the potential cards you're trading off between Grixis and BUG:

Shardless/Goyf/Leovold/Ass Trophy/AD/Library + Sideboard Choke/Carpet v. Bolt/K-Command/Peezy/Lavamancer + Sideboard REB/Pyro

At a glance green splash will be better as a mid-range strategy and red splash will be better in a more aggressive strategy. Hopefully in the long-run this will make RUG, BUG, and Grixis all viable in both Snapcaster and Delver variations.

The underlying problem with green is that all of the best creatures are blue and black. Strange environment.

[Aggro_zombies]

I agree with Hanni that this card is somewhat overhyped right now.

Relative to Abrupt Decay, what does this card profitably trade with? JTMS is the big one, though they will get an activation out of him first. It can destroy Sneak Attack, but they can activate it in response. It can hit some but not all Reanimator targets, and while targeting a Griselbrand with this is definitely better than Swordsing one, it's still not great. It can hit a Batterskull if they don't have :3: up. It can hit Palace Jailer and annoying utility lands like Karakas and Port out of DnT.

The trade off is that it can be countered, which is a pretty big drawback if you're trying to kill Sneak Attacks or Jaces with it. If they JTMS and 0 you have to imagine they have a counter.

I don't think the card is bad by any stretch of the imagination, but I don't think it breaks into the format in a big way. It seems like a reasonable sideboard swap for AD in some matchups, or as a 2/1 split with AD.

EDIT: Also, based on cards and art spoiled and Maro's article today, it seems like half the guilds are Bolas-aligned and half aren't, and the half that are have planeswalkers in charge. Izzet (Ral Zarek) and Golgari (Vraska) seem to be it in this set (holy shit, are the Dimir the good guys? Please say they're the good guys) and Azorius, Orzhov, and an unknown guild are it in the second set based on Ass Trophy appearing to show Isperia's death and Kaya, Ghost Assassin being spoiled in the art for the novel. Also in that art is an unknown wizard who appears to be using Azorius-style magic.

I would love for the final Bolas guild to be Gruul just because it would be hilarious for the wild savages to be Bolas's puppets, but it's probably going to be something boring like Simic.

[Fox]

Say hello to your new format staple
https://227rsi2stdr53e3wto2skssd7xe-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Assassins_Trophy_EN.png

Poor formatting, requires intervening "if" clause. Target their thing, steal it, kill it, ramp self.... R&D needs to think things like this through.

If they can't get that much right, this should just read "kill target perm, controller searches basic."

[Echelon]

But what about intangible objects like enchantments? How do you "kill" a Blood Moon? Same goes for the lands - what are the thoughts of the assassin?

Also, killing off all life on an island takes more cards than destroying the entire island itself :laugh:

I'm thinking the assassin in question underwent some horrible childhood trauma and because of that hates literally everything :laugh:

You'll be seeing between 2 to 4 copies in pretty much every Nic Fit list, by the way. 2 to 4 in every 60, maybe even 3 to 4 in every 75

[MorphBerlin]

Poor formatting, requires intervening "if" clause. Target their thing, steal it, kill it, ramp self.... R&D needs to think things like this through.

If they can't get that much right, this should just read "kill target perm, controller searches basic."

Lol, that's total nonsene. So instead of controlling their thing you would loose this card and their thing to ramp yourself one basic? Wow you really broke this, go ahead with your super strategy!

But even then, the Trophy would be countered because it's an illeagal target when you control it! formatting is totally fine! You are really the epitome of internet people... Shouting out, how stupid the entire R&D is and you are so much smarter then all of them... made a big fool of yourself!


I agree with Hanni that this card is somewhat overhyped right now.

Relative to Abrupt Decay, what does this card profitably trade with? JTMS is the big one, though they will get an activation out of him first. It can destroy Sneak Attack, but they can activate it in response. It can hit some but not all Reanimator targets, and while targeting a Griselbrand with this is definitely better than Swordsing one, it's still not great. It can hit a Batterskull if they don't have :3: up. It can hit Palace Jailer and annoying utility lands like Karakas and Port out of DnT.

The trade off is that it can be countered, which is a pretty big drawback if you're trying to kill Sneak Attacks or Jaces with it. If they JTMS and 0 you have to imagine they have a counter.

I don't think the card is bad by any stretch of the imagination, but I don't think it breaks into the format in a big way. It seems like a reasonable sideboard swap for AD in some matchups, or as a 2/1 split with AD.

EDIT: Also, based on cards and art spoiled and Maro's article today, it seems like half the guilds are Bolas-aligned and half aren't, and the half that are have planeswalkers in charge. Izzet (Ral Zarek) and Golgari (Vraska) seem to be it in this set (holy shit, are the Dimir the good guys? Please say they're the good guys) and Azorius, Orzhov, and an unknown guild are it in the second set based on Ass Trophy appearing to show Isperia's death and Kaya, Ghost Assassin being spoiled in the art for the novel. Also in that art is an unknown wizard who appears to be using Azorius-style magic.

I would love for the final Bolas guild to be Gruul just because it would be hilarious for the wild savages to be Bolas's puppets, but it's probably going to be something boring like Simic.

Your forgot one really big card this handles: Gurmag Angler which is kind of the 2nd best aggressive creature right now and is traditionally tough to handle for BUG since the best answer in strix can be handled by counters and removal and all spellbased removal is either situational like Edicts, Go for the Throat or has a significant drawback like Dismember so you cannot play alot of it. Hitting Jace is really big even if they get to brainstrom since it is still alot better than playing something clunky like maelstrom pulse while still hitting non-blue Walkers in contrast to Blasteffects and it's an instant so you don't wast half your turn for it.

Hitting Lands is really big as well, because for a non- or two-wasteland-Deck Karakas+Thalia or Stage+DD is really though to handle as well.

The StoP Path comparision is not really fitting, since StoP can hit everything path hits, this hits more than any other bug-removal spell so it's an upgrade unlike path. Also against Delver-style decks this isn't even Carddisadvantage cause they don't have basics.

[kombatkiwi]

Poor formatting, requires intervening "if" clause. Target their thing, steal it, kill it, ramp self.... R&D needs to think things like this through.

If they can't get that much right, this should just read "kill target perm, controller searches basic."

If you target an opponent's permanent with Trophy and then gain control of that permanent in response, when your Trophy tries to resolve the permanent no longer satisfies "Target permanent an opponent controls" so the trophy is countered for all its targets being illegal.

It's no different to making your Wild Mongrel black to counter your opponent's Terror

"If they can't make this card not function in this weird corner case that I don't even understand properly then they should have printed it with entirely different functionality" yeah ok thanks for your input

[Echelon]

Oh well, haters gonna hate, hate hate.

Just shake it off, shake it off :laugh:

[Erdvermampfa]

Assassin's Trophy is getting completely overrated right now and will almost certainly see next to zero play in Legacy. There is a reason that Path to Exile doesnt get played either if only because ramping your opponent in a format full of JCTMs and other planeswalkers is simply bad or if just for the fact that counterable CC2 removal sucks in legacy (Daze, Pierce, Flusterstorm, Thalia). In fact most creatures in legacy today aren't even played because of being creatures in the first place but because of their inbuilt effects (Snapcaster, Strix, Shardless, Leo etc.) and giving them even more value of out those is the worst idea ever.

[Echelon]

Whatever floats your boat man :laugh:

[mistercakes]

Assassin's Trophy is getting completely overrated right now and will almost certainly see next to zero play in Legacy. There is a reason that Path to Exile doesnt get played either if only because ramping your opponent in a format full of JCTMs and other planeswalkers is simply bad or if just for the fact that counterable CC2 removal sucks in legacy (Daze, Pierce, Flusterstorm, Thalia). In fact most creatures in legacy today aren't even played because of being creatures in the first place but because of their inbuilt effects (Snapcaster, Strix, Shardless, Leo etc.) and giving them even more value of out those is the worst idea ever.

it's an easy fit for nic fit as was mentioned since veteran explorer will already have oppo have their lands in play. could also be played in lands where it turns ghost quarter into a strip mine very fast. (would def be a sb card if there were room).

i can see it used as a card in GB depths as well as a way to protect against karakas/wasteland.

it's not the most incredible card, but i'm happy to see any cards introduced to the legacy cardpool. especially if they aren't blue!

[Fox]

If you target an opponent's permanent with Trophy and then gain control of that permanent in response, when your Trophy tries to resolve the permanent no longer satisfies "Target permanent an opponent controls" so the trophy is countered for all its targets being illegal.

It's no different to making your Wild Mongrel black to counter your opponent's Terror

Ah right, I was thinking all that mattered was that they controlled it when you declared target; forgot that it fizzles itself. Card seems fine then.

[Lemnear]

it's not the most incredible card, but i'm happy to see any cards introduced to the legacy cardpool. especially if they aren't blue!

Careful, mate. The last time someone said that about BG cards, those were Abrupt Decay and DRS, which both ended up cantrip shell staples.

In general, Trophy isn't a Legacy card as it creates carddisadvantage, is counterable and has barely more relevant targets than Decay. It's an interresting card for Modern though.

[Whitefaces]

BGx being able to Kill Jace and Angler with a strong card is a huge deal, it'll see a lot of Legacy play I'm sure.

[mistercakes]

Careful, mate. The last time someone said that about BG cards, those were Abrupt Decay and DRS, which both ended up cantrip shell staples.

In general, Trophy isn't a Legacy card as it creates carddisadvantage, is counterable and has barely more relevant targets than Decay. It's an interresting card for Modern though.

understood, but the only way to avoid blue decks from abusing good cards are to make them very narrow and/or awkward costs.

[MorphBerlin]

Assassin's Trophy is getting completely overrated right now and will almost certainly see next to zero play in Legacy. There is a reason that Path to Exile doesnt get played either if only because ramping your opponent in a format full of JCTMs and other planeswalkers is simply bad or if just for the fact that counterable CC2 removal sucks in legacy (Daze, Pierce, Flusterstorm, Thalia). In fact most creatures in legacy today aren't even played because of being creatures in the first place but because of their inbuilt effects (Snapcaster, Strix, Shardless, Leo etc.) and giving them even more value of out those is the worst idea ever.

if you cannot see the huge difference in the comparison between swords and path and Decay and Assasin's Trophy you should really not evaluate any new cards tbh:rolleyes:

[Lemnear]

understood, but the only way to avoid blue decks from abusing good cards are to make them very narrow and/or awkward costs.

I wonder if BG is now enough of an "awkward cost" again after DRS :wink:

[Poron]

Time to sleeve back Spell Snare. 2 will become a dangerous cc back again.

[Poron]

Careful, mate. The last time someone said that about BG cards, those were Abrupt Decay and DRS, which both ended up cantrip shell staples.

In general, Trophy isn't a Legacy card as it creates carddisadvantage, is counterable and has barely more relevant targets than Decay. It's an interresting card for Modern though.

Then it will have to be supported by Hymn and Snapcaster Mage.

It will definitely see Legacy play and decks without basics will suffer even more. This will bring to a less important B2B and a less important Blood Moon.

Veteran Explorer will also see play. If you run him out of basics AT becomes much better

[Lemnear]

Veteran Explorer will also see play. If you run him out of basics AT becomes much better

Still leaves the counter issue and the question of what you want to to remove with cmc 4+. I am very sceptical.

[morgan_coke]

I think it's funny that people are basically mad there's a 2 mana instant speed Vindicate and are all like "nah, that's trash"

If two days ago I'd said "wotc will print a 2 mana instant speed Vindicate" those same ppl would have been all "BS, OP"

It's pretty funny. Kind of like when WotC literally put $100-$1000 bills in random Zendikar packs in the form of "treasures" and folks bitched about it.

[Cire]

Why is Assasin's trophy being discussed as an alternative to Abrupt Decay instead of in addition? They can hit permanents not just creatures and Trophy can even hit non-basics, so unlike running a full suite of STP and PTE they are way less likely to be dead cards.

Like as a starting point, imagine this in shardless (random list below). Probably needs accel and mana fixing, but it can control the board pretty well and way more likely to destroy a permanent with a Shardless casting. If you somehow put in Snapcaster as well then you have even more oppurtunities to control the board.

4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Baleful Strix

4 Ancestral Visions
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Hymn to tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Assasin's trophy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Ponder

4 Wasteland
16 Lands

[BenBleiweiss]

Hmmmmmm https://i.imgur.com/R1LN3ov.png

[Poron]

Still leaves the counter issue and the question of what you want to to remove with cmc 4+. I am very sceptical.

Angler, Jace, Chandra, any possible Eldrazi (but Emrakul) Griselbrand and any other Reanimator creature, Thran Dynamo, Ugin, Karn the only Tropical Island around against Sultai to cut him out of Green.. Karakas against Gaddock Teeg or Thalia, Cavern of Souls against Goblin or Merfolk

Always consider that with Surgical Extraction you can leave him out of a certain land. Against current decks you can easily kill his mana with

4 Wasteland
4 Stifle
4 Surgical
4 Assassin’s Trophy
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Crucible of Worlds

[Erdvermampfa]

I don't like the continous presence of this SCG sales guy (BenBleiweiss) in this thread trying to stir up hype for weak cards...can the mods do something about that please?

[BenBleiweiss]

I don't like the continous presence of this SCG sales guy (BenBleiweiss) in this thread trying to stir up hype for weak cards...can the mods do something about that please?

I don't think I've ever posted about a card here that I didn't genuinely think could have some relevance to Legacy. I'm not sure what I"m doing to give you the perception that I'm trying to "stir up hype for weak cards" (the only two cards I've posted are this one, and Assassin's Trophy), but if you could let me know how to change my posts to not give this impression, please let me know!

[Dice_Box]

I don't like the continous presence of this SCG sales guy (BenBleiweiss) in this thread trying to stir up hype for weak cards...can the mods do something about that please?
This is a public forum, unless he comes in and starts pressuring others to buy shit he is free to post and others are free to judge.

Plus, he did come in and let us all know about a day a head that SCG was going to drop something big, then posted Recruiter of the Guard. He does not troll us.

[PirateKing]

Still leaves the counter issue and the question of what you want to to remove with cmc 4+. I am very sceptical.

Jace, Batterskull, Leyline, Angler, Karakas, Port.

I don't man, every answer to Jace is open to counters as well. Dies to Removal: the Argument. A lot of sideboards that splashed green for Abrupt Decay but had to find additional answers for CMC4 & lands now have a simple concise catchall to bring in against decks that play permanents. I mean, what is more effective against an opponent's Tombstalker, an Assassin's Trophy that gets countered or an Abrupt Decay in your hand?

The range of targets is broad enough to consider it more on par with straight countermagic. Game 1 I don't know what you're playing, but I have a Force of Will for it. Instants, Sorceries, Creatures, don't care, bam; Answered. Sure you can counter my counter, that's just the game. Same thing with this.

[BenBleiweiss]

This is a public forum, unless he comes in and starts pressuring others to buy shit he is free to post and others are free to judge.

Plus, he did come in and let us all know about a day a head that SCG was going to drop something big, then posted Recruiter of the Guard. He does not troll us.

Yeah, you didn't see me coming in a day ahead and posting about a 4/3 flash guy for 6 that mills for 4 ;)

[Erdvermampfa]

This is a public forum, unless he comes in and starts pressuring others to buy shit he is free to post and others are free to judge.

Plus, he did come in and let us all know about a day a head that SCG was going to drop something big, then posted Recruiter of the Guard. He does not troll us.

Me asking for an intervention was kind of rhetorical but if this kind of mass manipulation from significant market players is tolerated here (as if buyouts etc. weren't enough already...) I also expect to be allowed to articulate my displeasure with such intentions and behaviour.

Both cards he "suggested" btw suck and will never be seen in competitive legacy play.

[BenBleiweiss]

Me asking for an intervention was kind of rhetorical but if this kind of mass manipulation from significant market players is tolerated here (as if buyouts etc. weren't enough already...) I also expect to be allowed to articulate my displeasure with such intentions and behaviour.

Both cards he "suggested" btw suck and will never be seen in competitive legacy play.

If you really think that me posting new cards that are spoiled is "mass market manipulation", then I think that tells me everything I need to know about your opinion. Thank you for chiming in, and I respectfully disagree with your opinion that Assassin's Trophy will "never be seen in competitive legacy play."

[ReAnimator]

Ben is a good guy and has been nothing but a positive member of our community and the magic community as a whole.

WTF is this shit Erdvermampfa? take your petty bitching and shitty attitude to pm's.

[Lemnear]

I don't like the continous presence of this SCG sales guy (BenBleiweiss) in this thread trying to stir up hype for weak cards...can the mods do something about that please?

I always interpret it as testing the waters in regards of investment into certain cards.

If you wanna put a pricetag on potential legacy cards, ask the Legacy players about the playability of said card. Makes a lot of sense to consult people who are often 10+ years in the format rather than younger crowds, Modern or Standard players.

Can't blame him or any of SCG employees in general. It's not different to the people who gauge targets for potential buyouts in a similar fashion. As long as it's not against the forum rules, I don't mind sharing my opinion. In this particular case, I wonder if he panders to me as a storm veteran lol.

By quickly running the numbers, I dont think the Creatures is worth it in Modern storm though.

[Cire]

Angler, Jace, Chandra, any possible Eldrazi (but Emrakul) Griselbrand and any other Reanimator creature, Thran Dynamo, Ugin, Karn the only Tropical Island around against Sultai to cut him out of Green.. Karakas against Gaddock Teeg or Thalia, Cavern of Souls against Goblin or Merfolk

Always consider that with Surgical Extraction you can leave him out of a certain land. Against current decks you can easily kill his mana with

4 Wasteland
4 Stifle
4 Surgical
4 Assassin’s Trophy
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Crucible of Worlds

That's a pretty interesting approach, lets say you add in the usual cantrip/fow suite and the usual 4 thoughtseize, add in Abrupt Decay as well. Then I guess given the amount of spells you end up with delver/snapcaster. You end up with some interesting list like:

4 Delver
4 Snapcaster

4 Brainstorm

4 FOW
4 Thoughtseize
4 Stifle
4 Surgical
4 Assassin’s Trophy
2 Ponder
2 Abrupt Decay

4 Crucible of Worlds

4 Ghost Quarter
4 Wasteland
12 Other Lands

Might be the wrong direction as you want some accel for Crucible (since you'll be saccing lands prior), so you'll probably end up taking out delver for some mana elf or rock, then you might play with the numbers and think about LFTL or something else cute like that? Stiffle also makes you want to try dreadnaught, but that seems like a trap.

[morgan_coke]

I don't like the continous presence of this SCG sales guy (BenBleiweiss) in this thread trying to stir up hype for weak cards...can the mods do something about that please?

I don't like the self-important idiots in this thread that try to backdoor mod and tell other people they aren't welcome, when they clearly are.

I don't understand in what you live that Ass Trophy isn't an amazing card. It's a Path to Exile that for one additional mana hits every single kind of permanent, instead of just creatures. Amaze card is legit Amaze. Only question is if it is format defining, or just really good. (I lean towards really good)

So what do you guys think about AT in something like 2G?

Zenith, Mox, Chalice, accel lands, splash black for AT and ? Use Ranumap and the Exploration Dino to tie it all together via Zenith. Really wish the old Odyssey 1,T add XY mana was available in BG for something like this.

[Lemnear]

Jace, Batterskull, Leyline, Angler, Karakas, Port.

I don't man, every answer to Jace is open to counters as well. Dies to Removal: the Argument.

The range of targets is broad enough to consider it more on par with straight countermagic. Game 1 I don't know what you're playing, but I have a Force of Will for it. Instants, Sorceries, Creatures, don't care, bam; Answered.

The moment, players reach 4-5 lands on the field to cast most of the bombs named, FoW is pretty much the only relevant counterspell left anyways.

If your opponent is able to drop a Jace on the empty field, it usually means they are ahead and if they use the "jacestorm" it underlines that position as it turns Jace into an immediate, card-neutral 4cc cantrip. I can't quite see how you can swing the pendulum, if you destroy said Jace with Trophy and give your (already ahead of you) opponent a Basic Land and a shuffle effect for free.

I don't question its utility, but as long as Wasteland is a common tool to handle lands, Decay being able to remove SFM & Batterskulls Germ token, creatures with Haste/Flash being established to combat planeswalkers and Trophy not providing the ability to swing around unfavorable positions, I can't see it getting the nod over the first 3 copies of Decay in peoples 75

[PirateKing]

So what do you guys think about AT in something like 2G?
Beast Within is pretty close to that. You could argue basic land versus 7 turn clock, but same speed and cost as you suggest.



Really wish the old Odyssey 1,T add XY mana was available in BG for something like this.
Consider Twilight Mire. One day it will come that color fixing is in such demand that the Shadowmoor/Eventide filter lands will be played.

[Dice_Box]

https://img.scryfall.com/articles/introducing-goblin-cratermaker/cratermaker.png

FUCK YES!

[Mr. Safety]

Hmmmmmm https://i.imgur.com/R1LN3ov.png

Ruby Storm might have a new toy. If you only play 3 spells, it nets you R. If you play 6 spells it nets you RRRR, if you play 9 spells it nets you RRRRRRR. Pretty easy for Ruby Storm to accomplish. Playing it for R lets it get out of control (a la Ruby Medallion.) This makes Bonus Round better, but as a creature-based permanent it seems slightly weak to removal in a deck that shouldn't care about removal.

[morgan_coke]

https://img.scryfall.com/articles/introducing-goblin-cratermaker/cratermaker.png

FUCK YES!

So that hits Delver, Artifacts, like 90% of DnT, and Eldrazi (Karnwalkers too I guess). Anything important I'm missing here?

[Dice_Box]

So that hits Delver, Artifacts, like 90% of DnT, and Eldrazi (Karnwalkers too I guess). Anything important I'm missing here?
No, thats about it. Its a 3 mana effect, but dam.

[Cire]

https://i.imgur.com/xS2O5V0.png

Mini-Undermine, but interesting that hard counters do not need UU in their mana cost any more?

[kombatkiwi]

Mini-Undermine, but interesting that hard counters do not need UU in their mana cost any more?

Has that ever been a rule? e.g. Vex, Psychic Strike

[kombatkiwi]

So that hits Delver, Artifacts, like 90% of DnT, and Eldrazi (Karnwalkers too I guess). Anything important I'm missing here?

Just a reminder that 'Eldrazi' also includes the 15 mana one
Edit: doublepost whoops

[Dice_Box]

Its Countersquall at 3 mana and with the unconditional counter attachment. Nope.

[PirateKing]

The moment, players reach 4-5 lands on the field to cast most of the bombs named, FoW is pretty much the only relevant counterspell left anyways.

If your opponent is able to drop a Jace on the empty field, it usually means they are ahead and if they use the "jacestorm" it underlines that position as it turns Jace into an immediate, card-neutral 4cc cantrip. I can't quite see how you can swing the pendulum, if you destroy said Jace with Trophy and give your (already ahead of you) opponent a Basic Land and a shuffle effect for free.

I don't question its utility, but as long as Wasteland is a common tool to handle lands, Decay being able to remove SFM & Batterskulls Germ token, creatures with Haste/Flash being established to combat planeswalkers and Trophy not providing the ability to swing around unfavorable positions, I can't see it getting the nod over the first 3 copies of Decay in peoples 75

I disagree, it seems your scenario put casting Jace in the best of circumstances for them and the worst of circumstances for you. In which case sure it won't be a game turning play. But lots of times against an opponent grinding you out, Jace is the hellbent topdeck you windmill slam down and take the game away. Unless they counter it. Or, just as well, "in response to your jacestorm, tap 2 and kill it" also nixes the counterspell on top of your library from relevance. Find a land and brainstorm lock yourself, be my guest.
There will be games where it doesn't do the thing and you lose anyway. But nothing else solves the problem without the same issues. Lighting Bolt can get countered. So can Snapcaster Mage and Vendilion Clique. Also you wouldn't be cutting SCM for Assassin's Trophy anyway, so why compare the two in utility? Play both.

[LeoCop 90]

I'm honestly extremely annoyed by assassin's trophy because i don't understand why they make good bicolor cards always in the same color pair. maelstrom pulse, deathrite, decay, now this. Why this card couldn't cost b/w? seems like golgari is the only guild they will ever print good cards for

[mistercakes]

White would have kept a theme like path to Exile. Too bad. Sometimes it's more about answers for standard. Would this have made a bigger difference for BW in standard or modern? I don't play standard or modern so I can't comment to that.

[Cire]

Has that ever been a rule? e.g. Vex, Psychic Strike

Honestly not sure, I've been playing at MTG creation forums for a while and the hard counter needs at least UU has sort of been gospel for a while. Vex and Strike were more exceptions for whatever reason. Not sure if it was actually a real design rule advanced of a sort of ad-hoc design rule among casual custom judges and that sort.

anyway:

https://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/thumbnails/169/439/82/115/636722826741890821.png

Glimpse on an Elf? Too expensive for elves?

[rufus]

...

By quickly running the numbers, I dont think the Creatures is worth it in Modern storm though.

Not that I'm an expert, but it looks potentially strong to me: Most of the modern storm cards with colorless costs are red, it banks mana between turns, and a 4/4 is a reasonable backup clock.

Also in modern it might be a piece for some kind of 8-whack thing with Myr Superion.

I don't think it has that much potential in legacy considering that Quirion Dryad doesn't see play.

[H]

Ruby Storm might have a new toy. If you only play 3 spells, it nets you R. If you play 6 spells it nets you RRRR, if you play 9 spells it nets you RRRRRRR. Pretty easy for Ruby Storm to accomplish. Playing it for R lets it get out of control (a la Ruby Medallion.) This makes Bonus Round better, but as a creature-based permanent it seems slightly weak to removal in a deck that shouldn't care about removal.

Yeah, but it "forces" your opponent to keep in removal post-board. Or consider keeping hands with removal that then might not be interactive.

I mean, it's a fringe deck, but this card doesn't seem terrible in it, most probably.

[Ace/Homebrew]

https://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/thumbnails/169/439/82/115/636722826741890821.png

Glimpse on an Elf? Too expensive for elves?
Probably not in Modern, where Glimpse is banned.

[Lemnear]

https://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/thumbnails/169/439/82/115/636722826741890821.png

Glimpse on an Elf? Too expensive for elves?

Don't think it is given how much of a manasink the Visionary combo already is.

However i am unsure to what extend the banning of DRS harmed Elves in general.

[Mr. Safety]

Yeah, but it "forces" your opponent to keep in removal post-board. Or consider keeping hands with removal that then might not be interactive.

I mean, it's a fringe deck, but this card doesn't seem terrible in it, most probably.

Good point. Honestly, it's probably an idea to play both this and maindeck Guttersnipe. If you don't kill them, you lose.

[Barook]

https://img.scryfall.com/articles/introducing-goblin-cratermaker/cratermaker.png

FUCK YES!
Time for Ersatz Gnomes!

[Scott]

It's a shame that the Glimpse on legs costs so much, because Cheeri0s could have gotten a boost, ha.

[Megadeus]

Me asking for an intervention was kind of rhetorical but if this kind of mass manipulation from significant market players is tolerated here (as if buyouts etc. weren't enough already...) I also expect to be allowed to articulate my displeasure with such intentions and behaviour.

Both cards he "suggested" btw suck and will never be seen in competitive legacy play.

2 mana Path to Vindication will se no play in legacy?

[BenBleiweiss]

https://i.redd.it/fmmpyy4gxnl11.png

Translation:

B1, Instant
Undergrowth - search your library for a black card with converted mana cost equal to or less than the number of creature cards in your graveyard, reveal it and add it to your hand, then shuffle your library.

[morgan_coke]

They're still trying to make tutors that only work in "fair" decks. Much like GSZ, this will end up banned in Modern, and playable in Legacy.

It can't grab lands, so what does it need? 2, 3 creatures in the yard to grab something good?

[Lemnear]

https://i.redd.it/fmmpyy4gxnl11.png

Translation:

B1, Instant
Undergrowth - search your library for a black card with converted mana cost equal to or less than the number of creature cards in your graveyard, reveal it and add it to your hand, then shuffle your library.

In a deck, which wants tutors for non-creature cards, but runs plenty of creatures already, Diabolic Intent is a much better and less restrictive card.

[ReAnimator]

Turn 1 entomb or Careful/Faithless turn 2 tutor up a reanimation spell?

Probably too slow and jsut worse than ponder et al.

[Cire]

Turn 1 entomb or Careful/Faithless turn 2 tutor up a reanimation spell?

Probably too slow and jsut worse than ponder et al.

Turn 1 - Land + Get creature into graveyard, Turn 2 - Land + Lotus/Ritual + Secrets of Mausoleum + Reanimate.

That gives you:

15 Lands
9 Entomb/Loot Effects
9 Creatures to discard to Loot Effects/Search with Entomb
8 Accel
8 Secrets+Reanimate

Leaving you with 11 cards for protection.

[Jax-]

Street Wraith is decent with it.

[mistercakes]

I wouldn't try the red guy in ruby storm, bit of a trap kind of card. Maybe in a version which just plays with bolts, guttersnipe etc. It would be a different approach.

[Mr. Safety]

Turn 1 - Land + Get creature into graveyard, Turn 2 - Land + Lotus/Ritual + Secrets of Mausoleum + Reanimate.

That gives you:

15 Lands
9 Entomb/Loot Effects
9 Creatures to discard to Loot Effects/Search with Entomb
8 Accel
8 Secrets+Reanimate

Leaving you with 11 cards for protection.

I agree, this card is nuts. Just like Sylvan Scrying is demonic tutor in Depths, this will be demonic tutor for Br reanimator.

Card is actually dangerously good. It adds a level of consistency that Br reanimator could really benefit from.

[wcm8]

Turn 1 - Land + Get creature into graveyard, Turn 2 - Land + Lotus/Ritual + Secrets of Mausoleum + Reanimate.

That gives you:

15 Lands
9 Entomb/Loot Effects
9 Creatures to discard to Loot Effects/Search with Entomb
8 Accel
8 Secrets+Reanimate

Leaving you with 11 cards for protection.

Could possibly go mono-Black (or close to it, perhaps with small splash for sideboard cards).

Liliana of the Veil is good in general, her +1 helps you dump creatures in the yard and is another option to take advantage of running Dark Ritual.

I suppose with enough self-damaging spells (shock lands, Tsieze, snuff out, street wraith, Reanimate) you could also play Death’s Shadow as an easy-to-play threat.

[Barook]

I agree, this card is nuts. Just like Sylvan Scrying is demonic tutor in Depths, this will be demonic tutor for Br reanimator.

Card is actually dangerously good. It adds a level of consistency that Br reanimator could really benefit from.
T1 Ritual into Entomb + this for a reanimation spell is definitely a thing.

[Glass House]

I wouldn't try the red guy in ruby storm, bit of a trap kind of card. Maybe in a version which just plays with bolts, guttersnipe etc. It would be a different approach.
Agreed. If there is something the deck doesn't lack is ways to make mana. Might be a fun card to toy with, but it absolutely isn't needed.

[Cire]

I'm thinking how to get that combo into a concise blue shell:

Turn 1 - Land + Draw
Turn 2 - Land + Entomb/Loot Effects + Creature to Reanimate
Turn 3 - Acceleration + Secrets of Mausoleum + Reanimate + Fow + Blue to discard

That gives you:

14 Lands
8 Entomb/Loot Effects
8 Creatures to discard to Loot Effects/Search with Entomb
7 Accel
7 Secrets+Reanimate
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze

You can further play with the cantrip numbers.

-----

You can also go the discard route AND use sol lands:

Turn 1 - Land + Discard
Turn 2 - SOL Land + Acceleration + Entomb/Loot Effects + Creature to Reanimate + Secrets of Mausoleum + Reanimate

That gives you:

9 Lands
8 SOL Land
8 Entomb/Loot Effects
8 Creatures to discard to Loot Effects/Search with Entomb
8 Accel
8 Secrets+Reanimate
8 Discard Effect
3 Flex spots.

------

The Sol Land one looks fun. Consistent turn 2 kill with the benefit of at least 1 discard spell.

[Megadeus]

Also MAYBE relevant, it can find Pacts without needing any dudes in the yard or even EE. UB Hive Mind it's your time

[Ace/Homebrew]

Filthy casuals can EoT search up Living Death. I think that's what I'm most likely to do with it...

[Megadeus]

Filthy casuals can EoT search up Living Death. I think that's what I'm most likely to do with it...

Oh this is a nice addition to UB As Foretold Living End

[Ace/Homebrew]

Oh this is a nice addition to UB As Foretold Living End
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSs6tubf8TkhqJnh0H9i1YjPiSeCE5HwD93GNEYw8X2YTIcjxIA4g
You're ruining it for the rest of us!

[Cire]

Also MAYBE relevant, it can find Pacts without needing any dudes in the yard or even EE. UB Hive Mind it's your time

Can only find Slaughter Pact

[Megadeus]

Can only find Slaughter Pact

Wow I need to RTFC. Black cards only. Alcohol is bad kids

[Kanti]

I'm honestly extremely annoyed by assassin's trophy because i don't understand why they make good bicolor cards always in the same color pair. maelstrom pulse, deathrite, decay, now this. Why this card couldn't cost b/w? seems like golgari is the only guild they will ever print good cards for

Vindicate and Anguished Unmaking exist. I'd say having your opponent fetch a land is much more "green" than "white". Golgari is The Rock, and The Rock gets good cards.

[Dice_Box]

Alcohol is bad kids
You take that back!

[Megadeus]

You take that back!

Don't believe anything I say, I'm drunk.

[Noctalor]

My god guys...


BR reanimator spending 2 mana to tutor a reanimation spell, instead of running more reanimation spells.
Al the deck is about is to reanimate asap, and this card (at beast) requires 1 extra mana on turn 2 just to not actually skip turn 2, just to tutor reanimate (which is the best reanimation spell because it costs 1 mana, every other reanimation spell is superior if you can afford to spend more than 1, you could run up to 20 reanimation spells if you are willing to pay up to 3)

[Rascalyote]

The moment, players reach 4-5 lands on the field to cast most of the bombs named, FoW is pretty much the only relevant counterspell left anyways.

If your opponent is able to drop a Jace on the empty field, it usually means they are ahead and if they use the "jacestorm" it underlines that position as it turns Jace into an immediate, card-neutral 4cc cantrip. I can't quite see how you can swing the pendulum, if you destroy said Jace with Trophy and give your (already ahead of you) opponent a Basic Land and a shuffle effect for free.

I don't question its utility, but as long as Wasteland is a common tool to handle lands, Decay being able to remove SFM & Batterskulls Germ token, creatures with Haste/Flash being established to combat planeswalkers and Trophy not providing the ability to swing around unfavorable positions, I can't see it getting the nod over the first 3 copies of Decay in peoples 75

Giving them a land as they resolve their Jace is a lot better option than holding abrupt decay and letting them Jace more each time and get further behind, this is a 2 mana instant speed answer to Jace while most other answers are 3 mana sorcery's. This hits bigger creatures too like Angler and against decks like Delver this can strip mine them as they don't play basics, is also fine against lands or Sneak and Show where Decay is just pretty meh to bad (kills Boseju too if you're BUG).

If you're on a combo deck like Reanimator or Turbo Depths then Decay misses Karakas/Leylines.

[Noctalor]

If your opponent is able to drop a Jace on the empty field, it usually means they are ahead and if they use the "jacestorm" it underlines that position as it turns Jace into an immediate, card-neutral 4cc cantrip. I can't quite see how you can swing the pendulum, if you destroy said Jace with Trophy and give your (already ahead of you) opponent a Basic Land and a shuffle effect for free.

This is untrue, is common to just slam jace against shardless while not being ahead, just even, and start getting value from there.
With this card around you can't just play jace on an empty board and win from there, and that was one of the easiest ways to beat BUG in general.

It's also quite common to play jace in a board state in which is not easy to just remove it, shardless often does not have enough board to answer a jace + plowshares for example, and is likely (or was i guess) to lose if the opponent untaps with a jace on board

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

My god guys...


BR reanimator spending 2 mana to tutor a reanimation spell, instead of running more reanimation spells.
Al the deck is about is to reanimate asap, and this card (at beast) requires 1 extra mana on turn 2 just to not actually skip turn 2, just to tutor reanimate (which is the best reanimation spell because it costs 1 mana, every other reanimation spell is superior if you can afford to spend more than 1, you could run up to 20 reanimation spells if you are willing to pay up to 3)

You know what a deck that can t2 reanimate 80% of games needs? a 2 mana tutor that's also vulnerable to all the hate that already hurts the deck and doesn't do anything if you didn't start with entomb or looting.

[Mr. Safety]

My god guys...


BR reanimator spending 2 mana to tutor a reanimation spell, instead of running more reanimation spells.
Al the deck is about is to reanimate asap, and this card (at beast) requires 1 extra mana on turn 2 just to not actually skip turn 2, just to tutor reanimate (which is the best reanimation spell because it costs 1 mana, every other reanimation spell is superior if you can afford to spend more than 1, you could run up to 20 reanimation spells if you are willing to pay up to 3)

Funny story, it also tutors up Entomb. That's a spell that doesn't have 20 variants. If you're trying to be resilient, you can t1 Land + Petal/Mox > Looting > Ritual > Tutor for either Reanimate (if you don't have it) or Entomb so you can set up a 2nd combo if the first is dealt with by Surgical/etc. Or you get Duress/Thoughtseize to protect your t2 Reanimate. Or you grab Surgical Extraction on the play in the mirror or against Dredge. It provides lines of play that will be more complicated, but potentially better.

Maybe I was wrong, this isn't Demonic Tutor. It's closer to Burning Wish, where you either get your kill or you get protection/utility to work around hate.

[Mr. Safety]

You know what a deck that can t2 reanimate 80% of games needs? a 2 mana tutor that's also vulnerable to all the hate that already hurts the deck and doesn't do anything if you didn't start with entomb or looting.

If you don't have Entomb or Looting that's already a mulligan, right? So you can find Enbomb or Looting + mana source?

[morgan_coke]

Rain of Notions is interesting for Standard/Modern

1UB
Sorcery
Surveil 2, draw 2, take 2 damage
Common

It's effect is basically a better Glimmer of Genius for 1 less mana. Harder to cast and a Sorcery tho, so, who knows. Seems like it'll be a player in Std at least, could see fringe play in Modern.

[Di]

If you don't have Entomb or Looting that's already a mulligan, right? So you can find Enbomb or Looting + mana source?

So you can use this to find Entomb (it can’t find Looting) to put something in the yard...which would mean a creature is already in the graveyard anyway to be reanimated, accomplishing pretty much nothing. And if you have the mana to cast this, why in the world would you want to tutor for Dark Ritual?

Card is straight garbage, moving on.

[Mr. Safety]

So you can use this to find Entomb (it can’t find Looting) to put something in the yard...which would mean a creature is already in the graveyard anyway to be reanimated, accomplishing pretty much nothing. And if you have the mana to cast this, why in the world would you want to tutor for Dark Ritual?

Card is straight garbage, moving on.

I forgot about the black only requirement, sorry for that. RTFC right? I'm not sure it's straight garbage, but to each his own. I don't have a dog in this race, just placing bets. :wink:

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

So you can use this to find Entomb (it can’t find Looting) to put something in the yard...which would mean a creature is already in the graveyard anyway to be reanimated, accomplishing pretty much nothing. And if you have the mana to cast this, why in the world would you want to tutor for Dark Ritual?

Card is straight garbage, moving on.

+1

edit: I'm not actually sure the card is terrible overall, but it makes no sense at all in Reanimator.

[Cire]

So you can use this to find Entomb (it can’t find Looting) to put something in the yard...which would mean a creature is already in the graveyard anyway to be reanimated, accomplishing pretty much nothing. And if you have the mana to cast this, why in the world would you want to tutor for Dark Ritual?

Card is straight garbage, moving on.

Ugh - fair enough, you're right / why not just play a reanimation spell. I was apparently getting excited over nothing expect over how good reanimator decks in general look :laugh:

[Mr. Safety]

+1

edit: I'm not actually sure the card is terrible overall, but it makes no sense at all in Reanimator.

Fair statement. It was just the first deck to come to mind for me. Does it do something? Yes. Is it good enough to change the already established formula? No. One thing that I've noticed is that 2 mana tutors find a way to be useful in something, given enough time. Look at Sylvan Scrying, not a legacy card really until it became a niche tutor in Depths. It just needs the right enabler (good afternoon Infernal Tutor + Lion's Eye Diamond.)

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I forgot about the black only requirement, sorry for that. RTFC right? I'm not sure it's straight garbage, but to each his own. I don't have a dog in this race, just placing bets. :wink:

I don't think this card will be playable until the black dryad arbor is printed. You really need 0-cost black spells for this to make sense in your deck and right now the only ones are living end which doesn't care about being in your hand and slaughter pact which isn't too playable.

[Mr. Safety]

I don't think this card will be playable until the black dryad arbor is printed. You really need 0-cost black spells for this to make sense in your deck and right now the only ones are living end which doesn't care about being in your hand and slaughter pact which isn't too playable.

I'm not sure about the zero requirement. It does scale up, ie Putrid Imp could enable bigger targets. I'm not sure what those targets would be, but it's a new interaction that has potential. We're used to legacy being broken with free/cheap things to do with our decks, but sometimes it doesn't add up.

This card is probably close to the power level of Shadow of the Grave. Niche, to be certain, and without a clear enabler to make a competitive deck. The eternal optimist in me wants to include: 'Yet'.

[adrieng]

it could see play in death's shadow maybe you have street wraith 2cc tutor shadow or a removal/fatal push/seize might not be so bad

[mistercakes]

Playing it in a black control deck with cards like street wraith could be okay. It could have some fun interaction with led, but it requires a lot of guys in hand to get any larger cc spells.

[PirateKing]

It's the black only requirement that really hobbles it. Enough decks could meet the requirements well enough to make use of it, but then what do you get?

[Dice_Box]

Rain of Notions is interesting for Standard/Modern

1UB
Sorcery
Surveil 2, draw 2, take 2 damage
Common

It's effect is basically a better Glimmer of Genius for 1 less mana. Harder to cast and a Sorcery tho, so, who knows. Seems like it'll be a player in Std at least, could see fringe play in Modern.

There are 2 pauper decks that I think will try this, I think it will see fringe play there.

[kombatkiwi]

Rain of Notions is interesting for Standard/Modern

1UB
Sorcery
Surveil 2, draw 2, take 2 damage
Common

It's effect is basically a better Glimmer of Genius for 1 less mana. Harder to cast and a Sorcery tho, so, who knows. Seems like it'll be a player in Std at least, could see fringe play in Modern.

It's probably going to be pretty good in standard
Modern already has Read the Bones and I don't think the current crop of graveyard decks suit a 3 mana sorcery
Maybe in the Ghost Council / Goryo's deck but that's a bit of a stretch

[Barook]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dm5xXP7XcAAZ_TW.png:large

*include "goes into Nic Fit!" comment here"

[Dice_Box]

I am not great at Standard Walkers, working out what is what, but that looks shit.

[H]

I am not great at Standard Walkers, working out what is what, but that looks shit.

I don't think it's that bad. However, it certainly isn't Legacy-level good.

The plus is bad. The minus is reasonable. The ultimate is at least actually reasonably game winning.

The CMC is reasonable. The starting loyalty is reasonable.

So, this is a reasonable card, if you can generate value off the plus and have a need for the minus. Probably Standard playable. Maybe Modern if you have a way to fulfill the aforementioned criteria.

[Di]

it could see play in death's shadow maybe you have street wraith 2cc tutor shadow or a removal/fatal push/seize might not be so bad

Street Wraith is the only real enabler for it, beyond that the only shell that could make sense is something like Zombardment and even then it seems weak.

A better parallel for this card is Traverse the Ulvenwald given that’s a tutor with conditional requirements, and even that sees little-to-no play (though I’ve certainly tried to jam it in Turbo Depths to no avail).

[BenBleiweiss]

https://i.redd.it/idqvo7l4ktl11.png

Arclight Phoenix (?) - 3R

Creature - Phoenix (M)

Flying, Haste

At the beginning of combat on your turn, if you cast 3 or more instants and/or sorceries this turn, you may return ~ to the battlefield.

3/2

Probably not good enough for Legacy, but only because Hollow One.dec isn't really viable - but worth posting because free-to-play creature is free-to-play.

[mistercakes]

Barook is correct about nicfit obviously great in a rector build.

Wonder what else could help for goes to graveyard effects.

Abrupt decay is totally fine too.