[Deck] Goreclaw Stompy

[Captain Hammer]

I was inspired by M19’s Goreclaw to build a deck that can take advantage of it’s cost reduction and built in, recurring, mini overrrun effect (pump and trample).

Mechanistically, the deck is similar to Nic Fit in that it plays rather large creatures (usually on turn two). It utilizes Chalice, Trini, Lodestone and Choke as the disruption suite in lieu of Cabal Therapy. It also utilizes the time tested stompy manabase for accleration.

The deck has proven to be a very powerful combination of synergies, but I hope you can give me some feedback on further refining the list.

Very happy that DnT/Karakas got knocked down a peg by Wrenn and Six.

Current List:

1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
8 Forest
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Chrome Mox
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Lodestone Golem
3 Traxos, Scourge of Kroog
3 Goreclaw, Terror of Qal Sisma
3 Questing Beast
2 Surrak, the Hunt Caller
2 Verdurous Gearhulk

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Once Upon A Time
4 Green Sun's Zenith

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Rhonas the Indomitable
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Prowling Serpopard
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

Sideboard:
4 Choke
3 Force of Vigor
3 Trinisphere
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Veil of Summer
1 Collector Ouphe

The sideboard could use more utility creatures like Ouphe.

Also considering maindecking a Sylvan Library and a Trinisphere or two (in place of some of the GSZ targets) to smooth out the curve and amp up the disruption element while adding to the Historic count for Traxos.

Once Upon A Time does a great job in getting you a Tomb for a turn one Chalice far more frequently. Twenty Six Historic Spells should be enough to ensure that Traxos is effectively a 2-4cc 7/7 Vigilant Trampler. Twenty 4 power creatures is enough to make Goreclaw a incredibly potent cost reducing overrun effect. And being able to side in 4 Choke post board is enough to give this deck a prison plan comparable to Dragon Stompy.

The key will be properly sequencing Lodestone so that it either disrupts your opponent far more than it disrupts you, or where you are able to play around it.

Older List:

1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
9 Forest
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Chrome Mox
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

3 Goreclaw, Terror of Qal Sisma
2 Surrak, the Hunt Caller

4 Lodestone Golem
2 Traxos, Scourge of Kroog
2 Verdurous Gearhulk
1 Wurmcoil Engine

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Trinisphere
1 Sylvan Library
1 Karn, Scion of Urza

4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Prowling Serpopard
1 Rhonas the Indomitable
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk

Sideboard:
4 Choke
3 Sorcerous Spyglass
8 Other

Sideboard Options:
Karakas
Ratchet Bomb
Thorn of Amethyst
Mindbreak Trap
Tsunami
Nature's Way
Ground Seal
Compost
Krosan Grip
Vivien Reid

Tutorable Targets:
Scavenging Ooze
Runic Armasaur
Ramunap Excavator
Deathgorge Scavenger
Wickerbough Elder
Obstinate Baloth
Carnage Tyrant
Woodland Bellower

[Poron]

Rhonas Polukranos Temur Sabretooth and Blastoderm seems natural fit here

Consider also Vengevine package. If it goes well GG gives you 2 of them

[Kaono]

I feel like a few 3 drop creatures are necessary. A search brings up a few which look serviceable:

Rhonas, the Indomitable
Thundering Wurm / Fallow Wurm
Yasova Dragonclaw

Of which Rhonas seems like it should definitely be included.

I think your 4 drops can be way better too. Thought-Knot Seer seems like an auto-include (swap some forests for green/x painlands). Maybe this is a deck that can bring back Masticore?

And then there's the Wirecat for max spice.

[Captain Hammer]

Thank you. All solid suggestions.

In which slots do you think they would fit the best?

I need to figure out three cards along with a Forest to cut from my list above (will try cutting 3 Baloth) so that I can add
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Rhonas
1 Temur Sabertooth
1 Polukranos

Here is a revised build incorporating the suggestions so far. Not sure yet if this is an improvement or a step back.

10 Forest
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Chrome Mox
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

3 Goreclaw, Terror of Qal Sisma
3 Surrak, the Hunt Caller

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Choke

4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Runic Armasaur
1 Deathgorge Scavenger
1 Prowling Serpopard
1 Rhonas the Indomitable
1 Temur Sabertooth
1 Polukranos, World Eater
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Thragtusk

[kirkusjones]

Don't forget about Chameleon Colossus. Can't be pushed and blocks anglers all day.

[kombatkiwi]

I don't understand the point of Goreclaw
You aren't playing anything that costs more than 4 (only Thragtusk) so it doesn't help you ramp into anything, and it doesn't interact with GSZ at all
The mana reducing ability is also a huge nonbo with Trinisphere
Wouldn't you rather have good standalone threats in this deck rather than a pseudo-vanilla 4-drop that you can't play in multiples and gets bounced by Karakas?
It's even an X/3 so it still gets bolted, it just seems worse than Tireless Tracker, or Thrun, or Vengevine, or...

[Poron]

Titania + Crucible for endless sweetness

[Captain Hammer]

The reason I’m not big on Rhonas as anything other than a one of is that the card is only good if you have another fatty on the board. The current creatures all work just fine even if there isn’t another fatty in play. Deathtouch is a useless ability on a 5/5 and Goreclaw already gives your guys trample and pump (for free).

I also think it might make sense to cut a Forest for a Noble Hierarch.

Kombatwiki,

Goreclaw gives all your fat creatures Trample (and Surrak gives them all haste).
It makes the deck resistant to Wasteland and Blood Moon effects.
It still ramps since Goreclaw can be played with a low land count using ESG on turn 1-2 and will allow you to play your deck even if you miss a couple of land drops.
It allows for broken plays where you can play a huge fattie and a disruption spell on the same turn, which matters a lot in a deck with a high curve like this one.
It’s not a nonbo with Trinisphere, the cost will still be cheaper, and if you have both Trinisphere and Goreclaw down in this meta, you’re already winning or atleast slowed down your opponent enough that your creatures costing 3 mana instead of 2 mana isn’t a big deal.

The curve is perfect right now. If you play too many high cc cards, the deck becomes dependent on Goreclaw which is the only situation where your opponent using their removal on Goreclaw can cripple you. The curve as it is now, the deck functions perfectly fine without Goreclaw but gets more explosive turns if you get Goreclaw down early.

[Captain Hammer]

Okay, got some testing in and Rhonas the Indomitable ended up being more potent than I expected it to be.

The deck itself is very solid.

Help me rejigger the list to support a full set of Baloth and 2-3 Rhonas.

What cards should I cut to make this happen? Hierarch? Deathgorge? Runic? Temur? What else?

[BirdsOfParadise]

> Deathtouch is a useless ability

(*) Deathtouch with trample isn't totally useless if Goreclaw gives Rhonas trample, but that is pretty specific. Rhonas also has some synergy with your utility critters, for example, giving +2/+0 to a Reclamation Sage turns Rhonas into an attacker. If I were testing this I would try out 1--2 copies, but I can see why you'd be leery of a card that's not a threat by itself.

(*) I agree that Thought-Knot Seer seems very good here... is the problem added vulnerability to Wasteland in your green sources? Seems like you'd need to run green painlands or Hashep Oasis.

(*) Is Obstinate Baloth that good? I can see it counteracting life loss from Ancient Tombs, but you're usually the aggressor, right? I can only think of two cards against which the discard clause is useful: Liliana of the Veil and Hymn to Tourach. Are you worried about those two specifically? (Hymn decks are usually also blue decks, so isn't the plan of maindecking Choke and overloading their Force of Wills giving you a good fighting chance already?) Regarding the point above, I can see why maybe you're worried about Wasteland vulnerability, but if that was a non-issue then Thought-Knot Seer would totally be better than Obstinate Baloth, right?

(*) Your GSZ toolbox seems too deep. How has it worked out? Off the top of my head, Runic Armasaur seems questionable as a creature that doesn't have 4 power and Wickerbough Elder seems redundant with Reclamation Sage (which I assume is better since it's faster). I also wonder about Dryad Arbor. I guess it must be good because it's a staple with GSZ, but stompy decks usually want lock pieces on turn 1 instead of a mana dude. So overall I wonder how the GSZ package has worked and which cards there have had an impact.

(*) Isn't singleton Jitte good here? Pumping a creature that's already pumped by Goreclaw is good because you're pumping a creature with trample. Pumping a smaller/utility creature (like the creatures in the GSZ toolbox) is good with either Surrak or Goreclaw (or Rhonas) since you then get above a power threshold. I can tell you like lifegain since you have Baloth in here already, and getting rid of little creatures is something the deck doesn't already do. I also wonder about Sword of Fire and Ice, since it gets you past TNN, although I know you don't want too much equipment.

Edit:


Help me rejigger the list to support a full set of Baloth and 2-3 Rhonas.

What cards should I cut to make this happen? Hierarch? Deathgorge? Runic? Temur? What else?
Runic Armasaur, Prowling Serpopard, and especially Deathgorge Scavenger all seem like easy cuts for your second Rhonas. Which ones have been working best?

I am surprised you want the full set of Obstinate Baloth, but it sounds like you've tested with and without them. It's not obvious which 4-drops to cut to make room. Have you encountered any problems with drawing too many Goreclaws and Surraks? Since they're legendary, I could imagine shaving one of either/both. Doing that and also removing Wickerbough Elder (leaning on Reclamation Sage instead) would give you the full playset of Baloths.

Edit2:
Further ideas:

(*) Manglehorn doesn't catch enchantments like Reclamation Sage, but most of your targets are artifacts anyway and Manglehorn hurts more against decks that want to use mana acceleration (Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, Lotus Petal). Seems good in the sideboard.

(*) Have you thought about Phantom Centaur? It has protection from Gurmag Angler, Baleful Strix, Fatal Push, and (mostly) Lightning Bolt.

(*) The big challenge is finding 3-drops. Yasova Dragonclaw seems like the best one, but you're already weak to Karakas. I don't know how to shore up the deck against Karakas.

[Captain Hammer]

Awesome suggestions.

I like the idea of playing 4 Hashep Oasis along with 4 Thought-Knot. My one concern is that even with 12 colorless sources, that’s not enough to guarantee we will always have one to play Thought Knot with. The deck would need 14-15 colorless sources to consistently support 4 Thought-Knot and doing so means maindecking Boreal Druid instead of Noble Hierarch and cutting all creatures that have GG in the casting cost.

Yes Jitte would be great in the deck. But space in the deck is a premium. All the creatures it plays have been good and I’m having difficulty figuring out which ones to boot.

Here is a sample list with those changes...

6 Forest
4 Hashep Oasis
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Chrome Mox
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Goreclaw, Terror of Qal Sisma
2 Rhonas the Indomitable
2 Surrak, the Hunt Caller

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Choke
1 Jitte

4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Boreal Druid
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Prowling Serpopard
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Thragtusk

The question becomes whether Though-Knot is a worth the additional inconsistency.

[Poron]

In this deck if you go the colorless Eldrazi route consider Reality Smasher

[Captain Hammer]

Krosan Tusker
Shaman of Forgotten Ways
Whisperer of the Wilds

All look to be decent options if we choose to pursue a more ramp strategy. However I can’t think of any creatures we want to ramp to.

[Poron]

You play 8 Sol lands, 4 Chrome Mox and 4 ESG? You totally want to have some 5cc creature to give haste to like Titania or Primeval Titan Blastoderm (haste trample shroud? Yes please)

Carnage Tyrant? Creeperhulk? Garruk’s Horde? Giant Adephage? Greater Sandwurm? Greenwarden of Miranda? Honored Hydra? Hydra Broodmaster? Nylea, the other green god? Oran-ryef Hydra?

Outland Colossus with the trample + haste enablers kills in 2 turns

Rampaging Baloths
Regal Behemoth for card and mana advantage
Thundering Tanadon
Worldbreaker? With Behemoth and Goreclaw it is a 3 mana spell in a deck with 8 Sol lands

[Von]

I would not play a singleton jitte in a stompy deck unless you have some way to fetch it.

[apple713]

this deck is pretty much sylvan plug. Although that thread has seen little activity over the last year it is pretty much the same deck with an updated creature list.

[Captain Hammer]

Poron,

I’ll put some of your suggestions in quotes, just the cards that most players aren’t familiar with:

Primeval Titan
Blastoderm
Carnage Tyrant
Creeperhulk
Garruk’s Horde
Giant Adephage
Greater Sandwurm
Greenwarden of Miranda
Honored Hydra
Hydra Broodmaster
Nylea, God of the Hunt
Oran-rief Hydra
Outland Colossus
Rampaging Baloths
Regal Behemoth
Thundering Tanadon
Worldbreaker

Lots of cool cards to try out, thanks.

My experience with the deck though, Goreclaw is a supplement, but its a mistake to play creatures that are uncastable without Goreclaw.

Thus anything that costs 7 mana is out. And anything costing 6 mana needs to be super resilient and capable of winning the game by itself.

The creatures that curve the best cost 2G, 3G and 4G and my goal is to maximize the number of cards at those casting costs.

[tsabo_tavoc]

I considered Goreclaw for MUD, which was difficult due to the 3G cost, coming down reliably only from turn 3 on.
Lodestone Golem and Wurmcoil Engine are still better than most of your creatures, if you struggle to fit in Thought-Knot Seer.
Colourless cards may make the Chrome Mox/ESG manabase weak, then Lotus Petal/Grim Monolith is also a potent acceleration package.

[Captain Hammer]

I think Wurmcoil Engine makes a great addition to the deck.

Traxos is another excellent option and we can leverage the fact that almost all the spells we play are either artifacts or legendary creatures.

[Poron]

If you accept the GG world, Nylea is a 6/6 trampler for 1G with Goreclaw

I know 3G and 4G is your best friend but if you find more value in some 2GG and 3GG you should consider it so you can add Nylea which is a beast in sinking excess mana

Also: why you are not playing Sylvan Library?

[BirdsOfParadise]

I like the Lodestone Golem suggestion. It has high enough power for Rhonas/Goreclaw/Surrak, it's easy to cast, and it disrupts the opponent. Sounds better than bending over backwards for Thought-Knot Seer, even though that card is strong too.

Is Okina, Temple of Grandfathers a good 1-of because of your legends, or is it bad because of Wasteland and Blood Moon?

Is Tarmogoyf an idea for this deck, with Deathrite Shaman gone? You're looking for big, dumb, and green, and Tarmogoyf is the poster boy for all of that, but is it big and dumb enough if you don't play cantrips and fetch lands?

The 3-mana slot is hard to fill. Seems like all the best creatures are 1GG. How good is Reclamation Sage turning out to be? Good enough for more than one? The other good 2G card is Tireless Tracker, but that feels like a different direction than the straightforward lock-and-attack plan you have now. Overall it feels like the cards that work the Rhonas/Goreclaw/Surrak angle in a Legacy stompy deck haven't been printed yet. It might help if they weren't all legendary.

[Captain Hammer]

The problem with the other god is the devotion required is a bit high for this deck.

I prefer going less on green actually...

10 Forest
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Chrome Mox
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

3 Goreclaw, Terror of Qal Sisma
3 Surrak, the Hunt Caller
2 Yasova Dragonclaw
2 Rhonas the Indomitable

4 Lodestone Golem
3 Traxos, Scourge of Kroog
2 Wurmcoil Engine

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Choke
2 Jitte

4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Prowling Serpopard
1 Polukranos, World Eater


Looks like the strongest build yet.

[Poron]

Yasova in this deck is an Alpine Grizzly who suffers Karakas

Don’t you think you need some card advantage? If they empty your hand you’re totally done. Baloths were fine for this

I would add Libraries definitely

[BirdsOfParadise]

Yasova in this deck is an Alpine Grizzly who suffers Karakas
I'm worried about Karakas too, but you forgot to mention trample and historic.

[Poron]

I'm worried about Karakas too, but you forgot to mention trample and historic.

Yes but 2thoughtness makes it a Ball Lightning more or less. I would cut it and I would consider something that denies mana.

Ok Wasteland but also some cool creature. No idea though

Also consider that Grixis Temur and Sultai are the future and Fatal Push kills 95% of your creatures. Being able to ramp is cool because you get out of Fatal Push and Bolt reach making yourself virtually unbeatable to Grixis and Temur. Sultai apart from Fatal Push has Abrupt Decay as well but if you cover yourself from the first the latter is card advantage

Consider SB Thrun against control and some Phyrexian Revoker for Jace and Azcanta

[Glass House]

Interesting deck idea!
Could Emperor's Vanguard be worth looking into? Paired with trample it gives the deck some sort of card selection.

[Captain Hammer]

I'm worried about Karakas too, but you forgot to mention trample and historic.

Okina is a very cool suggestion. I will try it in the deck.

Karakas could be a pain. I havent tried the deck vs DnT yet.

What the best land destruction options we have aside from wasteland? Acidic Slime?

[BirdsOfParadise]

Feast of Worms lol.

Seriously, I think Wasteland is the best bet, although I could maybe imagine cramming in two Ice Storms if you further cut down the GSZ package. I know I suggested Jitte, but I am wondering now about Lightning Greaves instead. You run a lot of big guys that could benefit from both haste and shroud. It's not a card that's usually good enough for Legacy, though.

Edit: Actually I'd suggest bringing back Runic Armasaur and cutting Prowling Serpopard if you're worried about Karakas. It's not bad against Mother of Runes either, I'd imagine.

[Poron]

The only way to to do something with this deck is 2x Ranumap Excavator and 4 Wasteland

Have been trying the list 20+ matches. We are also able to big mana and we don’t draw anything. Again something that draws us cards is needed

And Planeswalkers. Jesus how much we want them
3x Viviane Reid

[Captain Hammer]

Poron,

Which list have you been playing?

This is my current list, I updated the OP with it earlier today. I specifically geared it to make sure the deck is not lacking in threats...

1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
9 Forest
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Chrome Mox

3 Goreclaw, Terror of Qal Sisma
3 Surrak, the Hunt Caller
2 Rhonas the Indomitable

4 Lodestone Golem
3 Traxos, Scourge of Kroog
2 Wurmcoil Engine

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Trinisphere
2 Choke

4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Runic Armasaur
1 Prowling Serpopard

This build of the deck is certainly not lacking in threats. It plays 22 cards that get out 4-6 power big threats, it plays more threats than permanent mana sources so mana flood shouldn't be an issue.


I know I suggested Jitte, but I am wondering now about Lightning Greaves instead. You run a lot of big guys that could benefit from both haste and shroud. It's not a card that's usually good enough for Legacy, though.

Edit: Actually I'd suggest bringing back Runic Armasaur and cutting Prowling Serpopard if you're worried about Karakas. It's not bad against Mother of Runes either, I'd imagine.

Surrak already gives all of our creatures haste. Lightning Greaves is unneccesary since Surrak exists.

Runic as a strategy against Karakas, Mother and Port is brilliant. I knew I maindecked it for a reason. Yeah, I'll have to make room for one maindeck once again.

I really like the one of Serpopard as an answer to counters/FoW, especially since it packs 4 power and only costs 3 mana. Maybe I'll cut a Chrome Mox for the maindeck Runic. Updated the above list to encompass this change.

[Poron]

With 4 Grafdigger Cage and 4 Faerie Macabre and the other 2 Choke in the SB this deck can even have a chance

Anyway I found myself often with 5-7thoughtness creatures against 1-3 thoughtness creatures who should totally be punished because of it.

Do we have a green Thrashing Wumpus? Also, we play all the green creatures in the universe, shouldn’t we play a NO Progenitus package? We can turn 2 it or turn 2 Ruric Thar against anything non white. Additionally Progenitus could be the necessary answer to Karakas decks

The deck has potential but we need some cool repackage to me

BTW Natural order package is 5$ on mtgo and it can be a SB plan against non blue decks. Bane of Progress also is very needed against Moon Stompy and those stupid Ensnaring Bridges

[Mr. Headshot]

I also thought at Natural order. Bane of Progress seems indeed like a strong SB-choice.

If you go on the artifact route, perhaps Ezuri's Brigade main deck. I love to play this card in legacy, but never found a home for it... :frown:

Greetings

[Captain Hammer]

Ezuri’s Brigade as a 1 of GSZ target is a great idea.

Its situational but when you have metalcraft, paying 5 mana to GSZ out an 8/8 trampler is solid. And even without MC, a 4/4 for 4 isnt horrible so its not an aweful topdeck.

Natural Order isnt needed here. NO works best in decks with lots of 1/1s that you dont mind sacrificing (Elves, Nic Fit, Maverick etc) to get out a big finisher.

Here, you would be sacrificing one big finisher and spending 4 mana to get out an even bigger finisher and that just isnt as appealing, especially since it opens you up to getting 2 for 1ed.

[Poron]

NO package is the perfect ambush sideboard against Karakas decks and Storm

Choke and Tangle Wire is very good against flashy blue decks

Consider NO into Bane what can mean against Moon Stompy or NO into Ruric against Storm or th super classic NO into Progenitus against everything apart from White control decks

[Poron]

Here, you would be sacrificing one big finisher and spending 4 mana to get out an even bigger finisher and that just isnt as appealing, especially since it opens you up to getting 2 for 1ed.

Sometime you need it in order to live and win.
A double Ensnaring Bridge with Chandra TD is a no-out situation without NO into Bane. A 7 mana GSZ is almost impossible with Blood Moon down

NO enables a lot of possibilities in SB you just can’t play it against Dredge Reanimator ans Storm for Cage

I would test your list with SB:

4 Natural Order
2 Bane of Progress
1 Progenitus
1 Terastodon
1 Ruric Thar
4 Grafdigger Cage
2 Choke

It’s just another angulation your opponent need to keep in check.

[Captain Hammer]

Thats a great point. NO isnt a good MD option but is a solid SB option to bring in against decks that you dont have to worry about getting 2 for 1ed against. I was just planning to play more artifact/enchantment destruction in the board (stuff like Wickerbough Elder, Krosan Grip) but NO is a better option against other Ancient Tomb/Chalice decks to replace all the Trinis and Chalices and chokes youll be siding out in those matchups.

In your board, I would go...
-2 Bane of Progress (it blows up all your artifact creatures so Terastadon is almost always the better NO target if youre worried about multiple Bridges,)
+1 Ghalta, Primal Hunger (is easily hardcastable in this deck even if it ends up in your hand and as a 12/12 trampler is a solid finisher to grab with NO against any decks that dont play StP/Karakas.)
+ Fairie Macabre

I would also consider trying 2 Tsunami in place of the 2 Chokes in the board. Multiple chokes dont do much. But a well timed Tsunami can put your opponent in an unwinnable position.

I agree, this deck (the Lodestone Golem version) is very powerful (every card it plays is a bomb) and I look forward to it winning tournaments once more people start playing it.

[Poron]

we’d need some mana denial seriously. Against non basic at least

[Captain Hammer]

The deck already plays...
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Trinisphere
2 Choke

Postboard can also get you NO into Terastadon.

If thats not enough, a 1 of Acidic Slime is a decent option.

Alternatively, Wasteland might work if we cut all the GG spells like Surrak. Or perhaps a Living Wish package with a tutorable Wasteland in the board.

[Barachai]

Elderscale Wurm seems like a solid NO target against Lands, Eldrazi etc.

Is the sneak/show matchup awful? Would it be worthwhile bringing in some Karakas for that + lands?

Was thinking of the following board
4 Natural Order
1 Bane of Progress
1 Progenitus
1 Ruric Thar
1 Terastodon
1 Elderscale Wurm

2 Karakas
2 Grafdigger’s Cage
2 Relic of Progenitus

[Poron]

Elderscale isn’t solid against MrsAnnihilator6 and MrDraw7

Sorcerous Spyglass for Sneak Attack and Terastodon in hand is a serious answer but way too cute and naive to happen. It would take a fucking planetary alignment

The problem with Ghalta is that if you have already 8+ power on the field you don’t need more creatures you need to connect and win. Traxos is already good enough for that.

I can’t imagine a situation where Ghalta is ever better than Progenitus apart from the hard casting which is anyway a not so good spot

[Fox]

Is Goreclaw better than Duskwatch Recruiter//Krallenhorde Howler? Lower cmc, more value, better topdeck.

[Barachai]

Elderscale isn’t solid against MrsAnnihilator6 and MrDraw7

In general I wouldn't be too excited bringing in NO vs Sneak Show in the first place, too much countermagic.

[Captain Hammer]

I like NO targets that are also easily hardcastable if you draw them.

This is why I like Ghalta, Primal Hunger.

I like Elderscale Wurm for this same reason. Burn and lots of aggro decks have no out against it.

Hornet Queen is another solid NO target that the deck is easily capable of hardcasting, especially if you land a Goreclaw. 5 flying deathtouch dudes can take over most any board and can even bring down Emrakul with ease. I would board it in vs Show and Tell even without boarding in the Natural Orders.

I could see playing a Bane of Progress in the board only if affinity and metalworker decks show up in your meta. Otherwise, blowing up all your artifact creatures is too high a cost.

With so many easily castable game winning NO targets, im not sure progenitus is even needed. Cutting it and the fourth NO frees up 2 slots for Fairie Macabre to bring in against Reanimator, Dredge and Storm.

[Poron]

In general I wouldn't be too excited bringing in NO vs Sneak Show in the first place, too much countermagic.

Yes NO is for non blue decks where Serpopard is for blue decks

I still think Blastoderm deserves to be tested.

6/6 trample shroud with Goreclaw is a very serious threat. It doesn’t untap Traxos and can’t be targeted by Surrak. Mmm

I still think Thrun is a card for this deck. 1x against Karakas MD and another one in SB
It just loses 1/1 to Blastoderm but gains Hexproof Surrak’s targetability and untaps Traxos

[Memories of the Time]

I like NO targets that are also easily hardcastable if you draw them.

Totally agree, and this deck has some serious reasons to make that idea even more true (i.e Goreclaw)

[Captain Hammer]

Good idea Poron.

I like Thrun far more than Blastoderm. Fading 3 is a big con on a non haste non trampler .

A 1x Thrun maindeck and maybe a 1x Ezuri’s Brigade (just because he is so big) would be solid options.

Not sure how to make room for them. Maybe cut Rhonas, or Wurmcoil. Cutting a single Surrak is doable though giving all your guys haste speeds up the clock by a turn or two so that would be the last resort

[BirdsOfParadise]

Good idea Poron.

I like Thrun far more than Blastoderm. Fading 3 is a big con on a non haste non trampler .

A 1x Thrun maindeck and maybe a 1x Ezuri’s Brigade (just because he is so big) would be solid options.

Not sure how to make room for them. Maybe cut Rhonas, or Wurmcoil. Cutting a single Surrak is doable though giving all your guys haste speeds up the clock by a turn or two so that would be the last resort
Before adding Ezuri's Brigade, if you need a pile of stats in a deck with Traxos and GSZ, I would look into Verdurous Gearhulk.

[Captain Hammer]

Before adding Ezuri's Brigade, if you need a pile of stats in a deck with Traxos and GSZ, I would look into Verdurous Gearhulk.

Thats a solid suggestion.

It’s legendary so it feeds Traxos.

Even if they bounce it with Karakas, you can add 4 counters to Lodestone or any other non legendary creature every bounce.

[BirdsOfParadise]

Well, it actually isn't legendary, but it's an artifact, which makes it historic and thus able to untap Traxos nonetheless. :)

Edit: Speaking of technicalities, Verdurous Gearhulk cannot be imprinted on Chrome Mox, which is a slight anti-synergy.

[Poron]

Jesus how could have I missed it? Gearhulk is a freaking four of.

Triggers Traxos, resilient to Karakas and he is as big as Ezuri without being conditional.

That’s a 3 or 4 of. Maybe even 4.

I have been very happy with 1 Wall of Root as GSZ target. It can give mana and block and it’s a Dryad with haste
And 1 Worldspine Wurm is great as a NO target against Pox decks

Even though if we could find room for a Vegevine package I think that I would cut entirely the NO package

Also we play too many artifacts for Chrome. I was thinking about 4 Tree of Tales and Mox Opal or Mox Diamond and 1 Ranumap Exacavator as GSZ target. Excavator can also give us Wasteland package

Anyway, I think this deck has potential. It can Turn 1 Trinisohere and turn 2 Goreclaw into turn 3 Surrak/Gerhulk

We just need card advantage and Vengeviine can give it to us

[Mr. Headshot]

Gearhulk is a great addition! 💪

[Poron]

Gearhulk is a great addition! 💪

Also, I have found Golem and Sphere to be a little redundant. I was thinking about playing Thorn of Amethist instead of Trinisphere to have a higher probability to have a hate piece on turn 1. With Goreclaw around I was actually considering Sphere of Resistance.

Current list

2 forest
3 mox opal
4 tree of tales
4 dark steel citadel
4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Chalice
4 Thorn of Amethyst

3 TSK

4 GSZ

4 Golem
3 Hulk
3 Traxos
3 Goreclaw
2 Surrak

1 Tarmogoyf
1 Thrun
1 Boreal Druid
1 Wickerbough Elder

If only TSK was an artifact. Notice we have 6 GG cards in total. That’s how I support the citadels for Mox Opal and resilience to Wasteland
With mox and citadel with a sol land in hand you can virtually play your whole deck

The card I would have wished to play he most is Wurmcoil but the only way we have a hope against SnT or Sneak Attack is TSK. I think we should find place for the 4th

I have add 1 Excavator in SB and removed the NO package. Hulk and Traxos are already big enough and 3 Hulk with 2 Thrun are Karakas proof enough.

Additionally Can someone consider a 4 Vengevine package? That card has the card advantage to make this pile of stat a possible threath to every non white deck

Lastly, Garruk Relentless is a card for this deck. I don’t know if main or SB and against whom, but it’s definitely a card for this deck

Our SB needs 4 Warping Wail
It gets Terminus Show and Tell every reanimator spells occasional Hymn and sinkhole and surely Thoughtseize

It is very good against black and Miracle and we desperately need a way to deal with the opponent

3 Choke
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
4 Warping Wail
4 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Excavator
1 TSK

[BirdsOfParadise]

Hi Poron, good point on Chrome Mox. Once the deck becomes oriented around Lodestone Golem and Traxos, Scourge of Kroog, you start needing a lot of artifacts and Chrome Mox gets weaker. How has Mox Opal been working?

You're right about the lack of synergy between Trinisphere and Lodestone Golem. Thorn of Amethyst is also something I put in my draft of the list. For additional disruption, have you considered Tangle Wire? Trinisphere doesn't like being tapped, but once you take it out for Thorn of Amethyst, both the Thorn and Chalice of the Void will happily tap for Tangle Wire.

Along the metalcraft route, there is also Jewelled Amulet and Welding Jar. Both can accept being tapped for Trinisphere. (For the Amulet, it's only a synergy if you were going to tap everything anyway; if so, then you use mana to put a charge counter on the Amulet in response to the Wire, let everything get tapped by Wire, and your next turn has +1 mana.)

Just some thoughts. I played Mox Opal stompy in different colors a few years ago and honestly it was pretty hard to make it work. Traxos is a big payoff though.

[Poron]

It is rare not to be in Metalcraft with 30 artifacts the real double edged knife is TSK that with just 12 colorless sources can be a total pain.

I had to add 4 GSZ and Boreal Druid to give the deck a virtual stability but that is super subpar

I have totally considered Tangle Wire. Reactive Island decks scoop to Choke + Tangle Wire but you should play Wire MD at that point.

I really don’t know what to cut.

[Captain Hammer]

It is rare not to be in Metalcraft with 30 artifacts the real double edged knife is TSK that with just 12 colorless sources can be a total pain.

I had to add 4 GSZ and Boreal Druid to give the deck a virtual stability but that is super subpar

I have totally considered Tangle Wire. Reactive Island decks scoop to Choke + Tangle Wire but you should play Wire MD at that point.

I really don’t know what to cut.

Your list looks tight Poron. No room to cut anything. I love the Thorn + Lodestone idea. I dont think you need Tangle Wire.

How consistent has the list been for you?

Thats the main concern I have looking at the build. You dont play very many reliable green sources.

Darksteel Citadel only making 1 colorless mana is a big minus.

Plus Tree of Tales makes your opponents Abrades, and any other artifact destruction they play into sinkholes and make it very easy for your opponent to cut you off from green completely. They also turn into mountains under a moon so I would imagine you could find yourself holding a bunch of green cards and no way to cast them oftenI dont think Mox Opal and TKS are worth the additional instability to your manabase that they necessitate but I havent tried your list so I could be wrong.

If you go that route, I dont think you can support any GG cc cards. So I would be inclined to cut to a 1 of Surrak and 1 of Gearhulk. Even in my list, I dislike the GG cards and I play 5 more green sources and 8 more forests.

I do think Chalice + Thorn + Lodestone can win games on their own so I will test replacing Trini and Choke with Thorn.

Currently in my list I replaced both Wurmcoils wirh Gearhulks. I think 1-2 Gearhulk is enough. 5 mana is a lot, it cant be imprinted and its only slightly more powerful than Traxos but has a significantly higher casting requirement.

My favorite play is a Turn One Goreclaw followed by a turn 2 Traxos followed by Surrak to untap it and give it haste 13 damage on turn 2. Its very easily achievable. You can replace the Surrak with Lodestone or Rhonas or any other creature and still win turn 3 with ease.

But the safer play is always Chalice or Thorn/Trini turn one followed by Lodestone turn two.

This is my current list...

10 Forest
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Chrome Mox
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

3 Goreclaw, Terror of Qal Sisma
3 Surrak, the Hunt Caller
2 Rhonas the Indomitable

4 Lodestone Golem
3 Traxos, Scourge of Kroog
2 Verduran Gearhulk

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thorn of Amethyst

4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Thrun the Last Troll

The only two changes Im considering for the list are possibly cutting a Chrome Mox and/or a Rhonas to squeeze in another utility creature or two.

The trouble is, I cant decide which two utility cards from below are most worthy of inclusion.

Runic is great vs DnT
Ramunap Excavator/Wall of Roots like Poron mentioned gives the deck resiliency to wastelands
Goyf is great cheap beater you can tutor up or cast thru Wastelands
Prowling Serpoprad is great vs counterspells and synergizesperfectly with the deck
Kitchen Finks/Baloth/Thragtusk are great vs burn and the latter two synergize perfectly with the deck
Ezuri’s Brigade is a cheaper one of Gearhulk in many situations and synergizes perfectly with the deck
Wickerbough Elder is great all around utility and synergies perfectly with the deck
Hierarch slots in place of the 4th Chrome Mox well
Tireless Tracker/Sylvan Library/Duskwatch Recruiter are cards others mentioned that makes sure we draw lots of threats

All of those are great options to fill those two free slots and its difficult to pick between them.

I think the best bet is to make room for as many of those one ofs as possible in our test builds to figure out which are the strongest.

To do this I will cut 1 Chrome Mox, 1 Rhonas, 1 Surrak, 1 Traxos, 1 Gearhulk and 1 Thorn from the above list temporarily.

That lets us test six of the above 1 of utility creatures so that we can see which two we end up Zenithing for the most often.

[Captain Hammer]

I realized that I almost never end up Zenithing Eternal Witness so that will be a flex slot as well.

Here is the test build I propose to figure out which three creatures we end up Zenithing for the most often.

10 Forest
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Chrome Mox
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

3 Goreclaw, Terror of Qal Sisma
2 Surrak, the Hunt Caller

4 Lodestone Golem
2 Traxos, Scourge of Kroog

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Thorn of Amethyst

4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Rhonas the Indomitable
1 Thrun the Last Troll
1 Verduran Gearhulk

//7 Temporary Test Slots (Pick 3)
1 Sylvan Library
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Runic
1 Eternal Witness
1 Prowling Serpoprad
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Baloth

The 3 best of the 7 test slots above will replace the Eternal Witness, the 4th Chrome Mox and 2nd Rhonas in my build in the post above this one.

[bruizar]

I really dislike the friction of gsz and goreclaw. You're not playing to your strengths that way. I tried looking into cards that can play to the strengths of goreclaw but i think youve already captured the important ones. Is sylvan library not. Abetter route to take than gsz?

[Poron]

Pure card advantage is always the best thing in Grindy matchups anyway GSZ is ssynergic with Trinisphere but not with Golem Thorn and Sphere

So is Natural Order

The point is either we play Trinisphere and the GSZ/NO package or we go the full Sphere way (Golem and 8 balls) without any noncreature spell at all.

Honestly if you manage in double Sphering him it is better than any Trinisphere.
Just consider what an Armageddon can do to a control deck when you have a Golem and a Sphere on the field. Impossible situation but green has many possibilities like Choke Tangle Wire Wasteland

Anyway just testing can tell
I would love a new playable sol Land though

[Captain Hammer]

I really dislike the friction of gsz and goreclaw. You're not playing to your strengths that way. I tried looking into cards that can play to the strengths of goreclaw but i think youve already captured the important ones. Is sylvan library not. Abetter route to take than gsz?

Those are fair points. It might make sense to explore a build with 4 chalice, 4 mox, 4 thorn, 1 sylvan library and everything else is a creature as poron suggested.

Personally, I think GSZ is worth playing. It does so many things. It ramps out a second land (arbor) on turn one for one mana. It lets you get a land (arbor) without saccing city of traitors.

It lets you blow up a food chain or another critical artifact/enchantment

It grabs ooze vs graveyard decks for only 3 mana etc.

It tutors up a hasty Surrak to kill a Planeswalker or win the game that turn for 5 mana.

Replacing it means we would need to play 2-3 maindeck Wickerbough Elder and a couple of Ooze or Deathgorge Scavenger maindeck but the trade off might well be worth it.

Perhaps something like this...

11 Forest
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Chrome Mox
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Lotus Petal

3 Goreclaw, Terror of Qal Sisma
3 Surrak, the Hunt Caller
2 Rhonas the Indomitable

4 Lodestone Golem
3 Traxos, Scourge of Kroog
3 Verduran Gearhulk

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Sylvan Library

2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Wickerbough Elder
2 Thrun the Last Troll

Is worth testing.

[Poron]

Wurmcoil suffers no hate, like a panda

Play 2

[BirdsOfParadise]

G2 after sideboarding:

Opponent: Cabal Therapy
Me: Resolves
Opp.: Name Karn, Scion of Urza
Me: That is a fantastic idea!
Me: *reveal hand
Opponent: You don't even run it?
Opponent: *facepalm

I think his idea was pretty good. I was running a version with 4 Thorn, 4 Tangle Wire, 4 Chalice, and 4 Lodestone Golem. It's good to have something that's easy to cast and that can either draw cards or beat down. The tokens do get big enough for Goreclaw. I cut Rhonas pretty early because I faced too much removal to want a creature that needs another creature to be its buddy.

[Captain Hammer]

Karn is a cool idea (so was Wurmcoil). The problem is finding room for them.

What does your list look like Birds of Paradise?

[BirdsOfParadise]

[MANA]
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
9 Forest
1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers

4 Chrome Mox
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

[LOCK]
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Tangle Wire

[LOCK & BEAT]
4 Lodestone Golem

[BEAT]
3 Goreclaw, Terror of Qal Sisma
3 Traxos, Scourge of Kroog
3 Surrak, the Hunt Caller

[GRIND & MAKE BEATERS]
3 Karn, Scion of Urza
3 Garruk Relentless
3 Vivien Reid

SB:
4 Choke
11 ???

This is where I am after ~15-18 games (Bo1 and Bo3). It went about 50-50. The games that I won were nearly all won off the back of Lodestone, Chalice, Traxos, and Thorn. It's almost like the color of the deck doesn't matter, although I want to keep testing green. Initially I was more focused on creatures, but the controlling decks just picked me apart and never let the Goreclaw/Surrak synergies happen, so I shifted over to some more planeswalkers. I could really see Sylvan Library being good (even though I've avoided it for the sake of Traxos), and I want to test a version that uses both Chrome Mox and Mox Opal.

[Captain Hammer]

Thats a cool looking list.

Do you feel your list plays enough low cost permanents to get a significant advantage from Tangle Wire? Especially since it doesnt play Choke.

The planeswalkers all cost more under both lodestone and thorn (unlike Gearhulk for example) so I would be worried they would be uncastable too often. Plus they dont get a cost reduction from Goreclaw.

It looks like a more controllish build which is nice. I just feel that Dragon Stompy probably does the control route better. The advantage of Goreclaw Stompy is its aggression and sheer velocity. It plays lock piece early to disrupt when it can, but it pairs them up with creatures anyone of which is capable of winning in 2-3 turns.

[kombatkiwi]

The advantage of Goreclaw Stompy is its aggression and sheer velocity. It plays lock piece early to disrupt when it can, but it pairs them up with creatures anyone of which is capable of winning in 2-3 turns.
So what makes it better than Eldrazi or Steel then

[BirdsOfParadise]

So what makes it better than Eldrazi or Steel then
I can't you that because I don't know if it is.

But I did just think of what would happen if you curved Surrak into Skysovereign, Consul Flagship and it sounds pretty funny.

[Poron]

Lodestone, Thorn and Planeswalkers is totally nombo.

I agree you have to play them because this deck runs too much out of gas and has no consequent card advantage while red has better mana denial and Chandra for CA

We have better creatures and Viviene Reid and you don’t really need Blood Moon in current meta if you can drop a 8/8 trample on turn 3 which is solid against every possible non white deck in the format.

So: IMHO the route is the Planeswalkers way and that binds you to Trinisphere.
Trinisphere give sense back again to Natural Order and GSZ and that’s where green has an edge

I think I would play GSZ package with TSK to fight his counterspells

4 GSZ
1 Thrun
1 Elder
1 Dryad
1 Rhonas
1 Scattershot Archer (stupid Baleful Strix everywhere)

4 TSK
4 Chalice
3 Trinisphere
2 Sylvan Library
2 Vivien Reid
2 Garruk Relentless
2 Karn, scion

2 Goreclaw
2 Traxos
2 Surrak
3 Gearhulk

4 ESG

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Forest
1 Okina

[bruizar]

Traxos with Tangle Wire is a non-bo.

I think I like Atzocan Archer better than Scattershot Archer because it also deals with other utility creatures and blocks flipped delvers. Otherwise, Walking Ballista. Ballista is kind of sweet with Verdurous Gearhulk.

[Poron]

True indeed, just remember that Deathtouch kills also outside combat.

[bruizar]

True indeed, just remember that Deathtouch kills also outside combat.

Good point. Walking Ballista is probably the best way to go about it. Puts verdurous gearhulks over the top.

[Poron]

It was already. 8/8 trampler tutorable for, typically, 1GG

[Captain Hammer]

Poron,
I remember you were trying to make TKS work. I dont think Mox Opal and Darksteel Citadel is the way to do it (the deck cant support either card).

However 4 Hashep Oasis may provide a key piece to making TKS possible. It can tap for colorless, green and also has a useful ability to boot.

[Poron]

I have already moved over steel lands now I’m On Planeswalkers and Library and it makes sense our creatures are so big that you need 2 to win i’s useless to have 30 in the deck

[Captain Hammer]

I have already moved over steel lands now I’m On Planeswalkers and Library and it makes sense our creatures are so big that you need 2 to win i’s useless to have 30 in the deck

30 is too many I agree. But with all the discard, removal and countermagic in the format, going too low can be dangerous too.

The utility creatures that pair with GSZ are essentially spells, not just beaters.

Lodestone is a walking Thorn. Sage/Wickerbough is a disenchant. Ooze is a Relic of Progenitus. TKS is a thoughtseize as much as it is a creature. Eternal Witness is a Snapcaster Mage with fewer restrictions. Surrak serves as a kill card against opposing planeswalkers thanks to haste.

Goreclaw just synergizes with all of them by making them super cheap to cast and also functions like Overrun as a finisher by giving all your guys +1/+1 and trample.

Otherwise, I think the nonutility creatures (cards like Rhonas) can be cut from the list and replaced with Planeswalkers or Sylvan Library or additional disruption.

[Poron]

It’s useless to have so many threats and not drawing them

This deck needs more card advantage and more nonartifact nonlegendary creature.
DnT is everywhere and so is Karakas as well as Temur’s Ancient Grudge and Grixis’ Kolaghan’s Command

Thrun has been stellar up to now if you manage to dodge Diabolic Edict effects.

Natural Order can still be the way. You create a Wolf with Garruk and it becomes a Progenitus or a Thar or the Terastodon you need.

The real edge for green is Natural Order therefore Trinisphere and no Golem. Otherwise red is strictly superior: Fiery Confluence, Chandra and Moons are much stronger then Ooze or even Thrun.

We’d need a green Marit Lage to see this in top 8. Like lands

[BirdsOfParadise]

Traxos with Tangle Wire is a non-bo.
I've gotten in 25--30 games so far and this hasn't come up yet --- rather, Tangle Wire untaps Traxos in situations where something else (like Choke or GSZ) would have left Traxos tapped. I may have been lucky, but my guess is there is no issue. Tangle Wire is happy to tap Thorns, Chalices, itself, and maybe a land.

However, I'm not sure if the Thorn/Lodestone/Tangle Wire version is better than the Trinisphere version. I run the former since then you have a higher density of lock pieces, but the latter might be more crippling. If Trinisphere is the future, then Tangle Wire probably needs to get cut.

I've already dropped to 3 Tangle Wire to fit in a Sylvan Library.

[Poron]

Honestly a piece of hate is as good as the next. I would be playing

4 Chalice
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Lodestone Golem

But that’s a Workshop deck and we haven’t it in Legacy.

I think I have tested the previous versions quite a lot.
Chalice Trinisphere Planeswalkers and Natural Order are the best version I found yet

The deck would be supergood if Emrakul or Griselbrand were green.

Lockpieces, Eldrazis-like creatures and then 4cc Emrakul

We have to wait for Wizard to print something really fat and green. Or at least a Haste Progenitus

[Captain Hammer]

We have to wait for Wizard to print something really fat and green. Or at least a Haste Progenitus

Ghalta Primal Hunger is fat and green and tramples. You need a Surrak in play for it to have haste.

However the best thing about it is that it can easily be hardcast if you topdeck it. A single Goreclaw by itself makes it 5cc in the post combat main phase. Traxos by itself makes it 5cc all the time.

The worst thing about Progenitus is drawing and having no way to cast it.

However a NO package that includes Ghalta maindeck and maybe Terastadon, Elderscale Wurm and/or Hornet Queen in the board is very tempting since all of them can be hardcast when they end up in your hand.

[Poron]

Yes, if Ghalta had Shroud I would be playing it that way but once we resolve a 4cc sorcery speed spell which requires a sacrifice I need to win 90% of the times in maximum one more turn.

[Captain Hammer]

Gearhulk is a freaking four of.

Triggers Traxos, resilient to Karakas and he is as big as Ezuri without being conditional.

That’s a 3 or 4 of. Maybe even 4.

Gearhulk is great but Wurmcoil Engine is just as good, and the deck only has room for one giant stupid beater, so lets compare the two.

Gearhulk dies to most removal. Wurmcoil poops out two powerful guys when it dies to anything other than swords. This is a big pro for Wurmcoil. If your Gearhulk gets Abraded, its a big deal. If Wurmcoil gets Abraded, you still come out ahead.

Many of the recent builds replaced Wurmcoil with Gearhulk and Im wondering if this is why it now feels like our creatures are inadequate by themselves, because we are no longer playing one of the most resilient creatures we have access to.

Gearhulk hits for 8. Wurmcoil hits for 6 (or kills a creature) but also gains you 6 life so its a net 12 point life swing.

Gearhulk costs only 5 mana, but Wurmcoil doesnt require GG to play it which occasionally matters.

Both cards trigger Traxos, resist Karakas, and dont cost more under Lodestone or Thorn.

[Captain Hammer]

Birds and Poron, which Planeswalker do you think is the strongest in your builds. Im thinking about picking up some Vivian Reeds to try in the deck since it seems to be the most powerful.

[Poron]

I have cut GSZ for Natural Order with Ghalta MD

Fetchlands are needed in order to grab Dryad for Natural Order and to shuffle after a bad Library

We really need a better finisher here but the midrange-y control combo is much better imho

Rhonas is the worst card of the deck

[Captain Hammer]

Yeah Rhonas is pretty bad. It makes sense as a one of in a build with GSZ but that’s about it.

That list sounds interesting. Im assuming you are also playing a Progenitus along with a Ghalta as the primary all purpose NO target.

Do you still play any planeswalkers or did you end up cutting them. In a non NO build, I think Vivian Reed is the only planeswalker good enough to maindeck. But in an NO build, Garuuk relentless is justifiable as it makes tons of NO targets and is okay by itself.

[BirdsOfParadise]

Birds and Poron, which Planeswalker do you think is the strongest in your builds. Im thinking about picking up some Vivian Reeds to try in the deck since it seems to be the most powerful.
First off, you folks were right that the planeswalkers were crummy in the Thorn/Lodestone build, and I have gone over to Trinispheres instead. In a lot of my testing, planeswalkers were just stuck in my hand.

When I did get to use them, Karn was the most brutal; Garruk let me steal a game against manaless dredge (flipped Garruk's sac ability allowed me to exile the opponent's Bridges); and Vivien was a draw engine (never needed the Naturalize effect). I like the idea of Vivien since I have no other maindeck outs to an Ensnaring Bridge, but that never came up.

If you could find another answer to artifacts and enchantments, and a semi-reliable way around Baleful Strix, it seems Karn would be the planeswalker with the most punch.

EDIT: Poron, I like your GSZ -> NO idea. Let us know how it goes.

EDIT2: Poron, my latest build is using both Chrome Mox and Mox Opal, and partly as a way to boost the count of cheap artifacts, I'm running 2 or 3 Defense Grid in the main (and other hate rocks in the sideboard to substitute in matchups where I don't need Grid). Running NO would definitely make Defense Grid better. Ignore that text. Defense Grid and Trinisphere don't synergize like I thought they would. Still looking that extra piece of lock redundancy after Chalice and Trini.

EDIT3: Any tech against True-Name Nemesis? It keeps eating my planeswalkers.

[Captain Hammer]

So are you guys also playing Lodestone in Trinisphere lists. I am but it sounds like most people are cutting them when they switched back to Trinisphere instead of Thorn.

How big do the Karn tokens usually get? I can see them being large in Lodestone Thorn lists but are they considerably smaller in Trinisphere Choke lists.

I dont see the point of Garruk Relentless but I could see Vivian Reed being great. I play it in Nic Fit and its been solid there.

Going to get my hands on some Karn to test them out myself. I'm optimistic.



I think a list like this has the potential to be very strong.

1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
9 Forest
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Chrome Mox
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

3 Goreclaw, Terror of Qal Sisma
2 Surrak, the Hunt Caller

4 Lodestone Golem
3 Traxos, Scourge of Kroog
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Sylvan Library

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Trinisphere
1 Karn, Scion of Urza
1 Wurmcoil Engine

4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Prowling Serpoprad
1 Rhonas the Indomitable
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Verdourous Gearhulk

I couldn't find it in my heart to cut GSZ. It serves so many versatile functions and even doubles as a Llanowar Elves when that's what you need. Vivien Reid can serve a similar role in the deck, however it's quite hard to cast in Lodestone builds.

If we had a solid alternative to slot in at 4cc in place of Lodestone (Thrun perhaps?), a build that dumps GSZ for Planeswalkers looks very feasible.

[Captain Hammer]

I feel very good about the current maindeck. I want to turn the attention now to the sideboard.

What are some autoincludes in the board?

Prowling Serpoprad - A singleton GSZ target that prevents all of our creatures from getting countered. Leyline of Lifeforce can fill the same role but its not tutorable and it doesnt come with a 4/3 body attached.

Choke/Tsunami - No explanation needed

Sorcerous Spyglass - Shuts off Karakas, Planeswalkers, Wastelands, Dark Depths combo and countless other problem cards. Its so strong that I am maindecking a copy.

Karakas - Helps against Show and Tell and Reanimator decks. Also bounces our creatures in response to removal and it even untaps Traxos and generates mana

Ratchet Bomb - Gamebreaking against weenie decks and tokens, but an all around useful card. It’s probably the better of the various removal options we have access to such as Nature’s Way, Dismember, Spatial Contortion, and Vivien Reid

Additional graveyard hate - Ground Seal is likely the best bet. More Scavenging Ooze, Leyline of the Void, Faierie Macabre among others are all reasonable options.


Some other mediocre options I can think of...

Woodland Bellower - Probably more of a maindeck card than a sideboard card. Its basically a GSZ that comes with an additional 6/5 body attached. This might be the replacement to playing GSZ maindeck that people are looking for. It can grab any of the utility creatures (including Prowling Serpoprad, Ramunap Excavator and Runic Armasaur) and it also gets a cost reduction and trample from Goreclaw

Compost - Hates on black

Mindbreak Trap/Thorn of Amethyst - If we feel we need more hate against fast combo than what we already run

Wurmcoil Engine - Really strong against any deck that doesnt play StP. Not convinced its needed however

Ramunap Excavator - A one of tutorable answer to Wastelands

Runic Armasaur - A one of tutorable answer to DnT/Maverick

Obstinate Baloth - Tech versus Liliana and Hymn

Carnage Tyrant - Tech versus control decks

Wickerbough Elder/Acidic Slime/Bane of Progress - Tech versus artifact/enchantment heavy decks. Slime also hits Karakas and Dark Depths

Krosan Grip - Uncounterable removal is always decent

[BirdsOfParadise]

I played a Traxos/planeswalker version with no GSZ and no Natural Order, using Chalice and Trinisphere as the lock pieces with Choke in the SB. I used 3 of each threat (Goreclaw, Surrak, Traxos, Karn, Garruk Relentless, Vivien). It was a build designed around the premise that every single spell was lockdown, beatdown, or removal + reinforcements.

Every single card was good (don't knock Garruk Relentless, he was great), but the problem was consistency, just like with all Ancient Tomb decks. I'm sure it's partly my fault as a player, but even on Cockatrice I didn't really break 50-50 in the long haul. In my build, Goreclaw and Surrak were actually the weakest threats --- the games I won were the ones where I landed a lock piece followed by a planeswalker or Traxos. All the cards did their jobs, but the reason I kept losing was that I'd draw mana when I needed threats and threats when I needed mana, more often than would be the case if I had a consistency engine.

So my advice would be not to cut GSZ. My feeling is that the build I explored was a bit of a dead end, and Red Stompy does the same stuff better (Rabblemaster is nuts). If there's a deck here that's capable of beating the field, my guess is that it uses GSZ or NO somehow.

PS: In an artifact-hungry build (Mox Opal/Karn/Traxos), Tsabo's Web is kind of cool. I ran into a lot of Mishra's Factory, Rishadan Port, Karakas, and Thespian's Stage.

PPS: How big were the Karn tokens? Again, in the artifact-hungry build, they'd often come into play as 4/4 and get to 7/7 no problem. If you're interested in running Ghalta, which I did, Karn is a huge enabler for that. I cast Ghalta for two mana several times; sometimes it was win-more but not always. Ghalta can also go on your Chrome Mox when it's in your opener. Garruk Relentless also made Ghalta easy to cast. Dang... now I want to play some more, but I kinda ran out of time for at least a few weeks. I'd probably keep trying with the build I said was a dead end... sigh.

[Captain Hammer]

I would love to see your list.

50-50 versus top tier legacy decks is pretty good for a deck that just started development this month and has more optimization needed.

I could see a Planeswalkers heavy version of the deck without Lodestone Golem doing well.

I approached this deck similar to Nic Fit. Many of the best time tested versions utilize utility creatures in combination with GSZ. Though there are certainly planeswalker heavy nic fit lists that dont play GSZ and manage to do well.

If not for the utility that GSZ and Lodestone offers, theres not much to differniate it from Dragon Stompy. This deck plays faster more aggressive threats but it loses out on being able to play Blood Moon. Choke is even more devastating against blue decks but theres enough nonblue decks in the meta that Choke is relegated to the sideboard.

Its a damn shame there isnt a Magus of the Choke 2/2 Choke creature for 2G (akin to Magus of the Moon). That would make for an amazing GSZ target.

The deck most definitely needs more card advantage engines. Thats whats so tempting about Karn, Vivien Reid and Woodland Bellower. Runic Armasaur offers this versus DnT and its a great GSZ target so Im tempted to maindeck it.

[BirdsOfParadise]

Sure, Captain Hammer --- here's my latest maindeck:

[MANA]
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Tree of Tales
4 Forest
3 Mox Opal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

[LOCK]
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere

[PROTECT]
3 Tsabo's Web

[BEAT]
3 Goreclaw, Terror of Qal Sisma
3 Traxos, Scourge of Kroog
3 Surrak, the Hunt Caller
1 Skysovereign, Consul Flagship
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Ghalta, Primal Hunger

[GRIND]
1 Sylvan Library
3 Karn, Scion of Urza
3 Garruk Relentless
3 Vivien Reid

***

Tsabo's Web doesn't have to be there, but since it cycles and boosts artifact count (for Karn/Traxos/Opal) and messes with Port, Stage, and Karakas, it's been... not bad. I'd like some sort of mana denial or lock piece if not Web.

Skysovereign is kinda just waiting to get cut, but I want to win a game or two with it. Maybe once it eats a Delver of Secrets I can cut it.

Ghalta is pretty castable. Traxos, Goreclaw, Karn, and Garruk all can put it into very easy reach.

[Captain Hammer]

Nice. That list looks awesome.

The inconsistent manabase is the only issue Im having with my current list. Other than the manabase issues, Ive been loving everything else. Im curious to know if your manabase proves any more consistent.

Have you been happy with Mox Opal and Chrome Mox combo alongside only 4 Forests. Its a very explosive manabase, but also very light on lands.

I feel like I would miss GSZ as I find myself using GSZ like a Llanowar Elf (by tutoring up Dryad Arbor turn one) quite often.

I would be very tempted to cut a couple Vivien Reed along with Skysoverign and a Trinisphere for 4 Lodestone but that would probably mean replacing a Chrome Mox or two with Mox Opal.

[BirdsOfParadise]

The mana base has been fine, but I've faced a lot of combo and blue-based control, rather than D&T, delver, or lands (decks that could attack the mana base concertedly).

***

Example game from logging in just now (same list as above):

Mull to 6 on the play
T1: Chalice --- gets Forced
T2: Trinisphere --- gets Forced
T3: No gas, cast Elvish Spirit Guide --- gets Diabolic Edicted (either this was loose, or they figured Edict would only ever hit the Spirit Guide, so might as well use it; this rationale is validated by the rest of the game)
T4: Topdeck Trinisphere, it lands --- on their turn they Hymn, catching only a City of Traitors
T5: Topdeck Vivien Reid, she lands; +1 Viv, find only a Forest --- on their turn they play Liliana, the Last Hope, and +1 on no creatures
T6: Play Surrak (found using Vivien) --- on their turn, -2 Liliana and cast Baleful Strix
T7: -3 Vivien on Strix, play Traxos (which stays tapped during the combat phase even though I could haste it), Surrak kills Liliana
T8: Play Ghalta (found using Vivien), swing for 24

Obviously everything lined well up this game. Just an example of how it works, when it works. Vivien ended the game by herself.

[Captain Hammer]

Thats great.

I am really tempted to cut chrome mox from the deck. Its a horrible topdeck and I really hate pitching a card to it. It makes it so I end up with no cards in my hand by turn two way too often.

Yes it lets you plop down a threat a turn earlier, but when that threat gets Forced, whats the point.

Every other card in the deck is so powerful and works well with the other stuff.

Replacing Chrome Mox with Mox Opal also means we dont have to keep up green count high and can safely replace ESG with Lotus Petal.

This is what I had in mind (inspired by your list)...

1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
6 Forest
4 Tree of Tales
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Lotus Petal
3 Mox Opal
1 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Goreclaw, Terror of Qal Sisma - Gives all your guys pump, a cost reduction and trample aka Overrun on a stick
2 Surrak, the Hunt Caller - Gives all your guys including itself haste

4 Lodestone Golem - Because your Trini is getting FoWed or Decayed anyway, its good to have a backup that also beats
4 Traxos, Scourge of Kroog - A vigilance 8/8 hasty trampler for 2 mana, why the hell not

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
2 Karn, Scion of Urza

4 Green Sun's Zenith - It often provides exactly what you need, whenever you need it
1 Dryad Arbor - Convert any GSZ into a Llanowar Elf
1 Reclamation Sage - Destroy Target Ensnaring Bridge
1 Rhonas the Indomitable - Use your four mana and GSZ to tutor out a 6/6 hasty trampling indestructible
1 Thrun, the Last Troll - Untargetable by Karakas or Jace
1 Thragtusk - Five extra life in the nick of time
1 Verdurous Gearhulk - The weakest and most replacable card in the deck, only here as a large tutorable beater. Says a lot about a deck that the weakest threat is often enough a 9/9 hasty trampler for 3 mana.


Sideboard:
4 Choke
3 Sorcerous Spyglass
8 Other

[Mr. Headshot]

Karakas - Helps against Show and Tell and Reanimator decks. Also bounces our creatures in response to removal and it even untaps Traxos and generates mana

Can someone please explain how karakas Traxos untaps? It's a land so it isn't cast...

[BirdsOfParadise]

You're correct, Karakas doesn't untap Traxos. "Whenever you cast a historic spell, untap Traxos."

[Captain Hammer]

Questing Beast and Shifting Ceratops make me want to dust of this deck/strategy again.

[square_two]

Questing Beast and Shifting Ceratops make me want to dust of this deck/strategy again.

I was wondering about Once Upon a Time with green chalice decks. Helps you dig for a Tomb/City/ESG to get Chalice down on Turn 1. Maybe a better fit for something like Sylvan Plug though, where you can dig for Baloth in response to discard or something. Competes with Library, I guess is the main consideration...do you want a smoother T1/2 that is worse (but at least usable) in multiples or do you want something to stick around (and useless in multiples)?

[Captain Hammer]

Youre right. Once upon a time is an amazing addition to the deck. It and Questing Beast are solid pickups.

Perhaps a list like this...

1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
9 Forest
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Chrome Mox
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

3 Goreclaw, Terror of Qal Sisma
3 Questing Beast
2 Surrak, the Hunt Caller

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere

4 Once Upon A Time
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Prowling Serpopard
1 Rhonas the Indomitable
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Shifting Ceratops
1 Nightpack Ambusher
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Verdurous Gearhulk

[FTW]

Questing Beast is the real deal.

As much as I like the GSZ toolbox, I think Thought-Knot Seer is too good and too synergistic not to play 4x. Some of those green creatures are less necessary maindeck.

Lodestone Golem seems very strong too, though it slows down your own plays a lot (e.g. GSZ for 4-drop costs 6 mana) so I can see cutting it if Traxos is out.

[Captain Hammer]

Questing Beast is the real deal.

As much as I like the GSZ toolbox, I think Thought-Knot Seer is too good and too synergistic not to play 4x. Some of those green creatures are less necessary maindeck.

Lodestone Golem seems very strong too, though it slows down your own plays a lot (e.g. GSZ for 4-drop costs 6 mana) so I can see cutting it if Traxos is out.

The main issue with TKS is that it requires a colorless mana source. This deck only plays 8 such sources. Once upon a time helps a little bit in this regard but it's still too inconsistent. With some changes to the manabase, accomodating TKS is certainly possible.

Are there any good lands you can think of to run in place of some of the basic forests that can produce both G mana and Colorless mana?

[FTW]

The 2 most viable options I can think of are Hashep Oasis (better than regular painlands) and Grove of the Burnwillows.

There are also filter lands (e.g. Flooded Grove) and slow lands (e.g. Mogg Hollows) but both seem bad.

[Captain Hammer]

The 2 most viable options I can think of are Hashep Oasis (better than regular painlands) and Grove of the Burnwillows.

There are also filter lands (e.g. Flooded Grove) and slow lands (e.g. Mogg Hollows) but both seem bad.

Yeah, Oasis and Grove seem like solid options. It sucks to make more of your forests vulnerable to Wasteland/Blood Moon. It's going to suck to lose to your only green source getting Wastelanded/Blood Mooned.

Also unsure how many forest you would need to replace with them to be able to power out TKS consistently. What would you cut for the TKS? Probably some number or Surrak, Questing Beast and Trinisphere makes the most sense.

I am not convinced that those trade offs are worth playing TKS. But playing a couple of TKS might be doable. I'll have to test it to see

Lodestone Golem and Traxos a whole lot easier to accomidate. I think I would rather just cut the Trinispheres and some of the utility creatures for 4 Lodestones and 3 Traxos...

1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
8 Forest
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Chrome Mox
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Lodestone Golem
3 Traxos, Scourge of Kroog
3 Goreclaw, Terror of Qal Sisma
3 Questing Beast
2 Surrak, the Hunt Caller
2 Verdurous Gearhulk

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Once Upon A Time
4 Green Sun's Zenith

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Rhonas the Indomitable
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Prowling Serpopard
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

Sideboard:
4 Choke
4 Force of Vigor
3 Trinisphere
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Veil of Summer

The key will be in sequencing. You only want to cast Lodestone if it's going to cripple your opponent, if you have sufficiently mana to be able to play around it yourself, or once you've you've played one of your other threats.

All the GG costs in many of the creature casting costs don't allow me to abuse Goreclaw as much as I would like. So I'm opting to play an additional Rhonas, and 1-2 TKS maindeck in place of some of the utility creatures.

[FTW]

I would cut some of the GG guys to run colorless guys to get more value out of Goreclaw (or keep 3sphere main).

Surrak and Gearhulk could be 1-ofs.

[Captain Hammer]

That makes sense. Okay will try cutting a Surrak and a Gearhulk to play the 4th Traxos and a Sylvan Library. Trinisphere is a decent option too.