[Primer] UB Death's Shadow

[aedrew]

I played this list a few times for fun:

Companion

Obosh, the Preypiercer

Main

4 Brainstorm
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Ponder
1 Preordain
2 Stubborn Denial
4 Death's Shadow
2 Fatal Push
2 Dismember
2 Reanimate
4 Thoughtseize
2 Brazen Borrower
2 Force of Negation
2 Dismember
4 Force of Will
4 Street Wraith
2 Gurmag Angler
4 Wasteland
4 Watery Grave
2 Underground Sea
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flassts
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard

1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
2 Mystical Dispute
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Dread of Night
1 Plague Engineer
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Karakas
1 Nihil Spellbomb


I wanted to see how valuable it would be to just always have a 5-mana 6/5 as a hedge against flooding out, especially in matchups where Wasteland isn't good. Effectively doubling all your creatures' powers is an added bonus. In testing, as expected, I hardly every cast Obosh and it was pretty low-impact. It would either be a win-more or not enough. However, I was surprised how little I missed Daze and now wonder if Daze should be cut or shaved for more impactful cards.

[Fox]

Make 2 SB cuts, add 2x Steady Progress, you need outs to Chalice.

[aedrew]

Make 2 SB cuts, add 2x Steady Progress, you need outs to Chalice.

I like it. And no more feel-bads when you shut off your own Dazes with proliferate. May be hard to get to 3 mana in time for this when you can't cantrip though.

[Fox]

I like it. And no more feel-bads when you shut off your own Dazes with proliferate. May be hard to get to 3 mana in time for this when you can't cantrip though.
Trying to draw mana is a better place to be than having no answer. Also can't Daze with oddball companion declared.

[FTW]

UB Shadow came up in the Obosh thread under N&D

We had Dark Ritual. It does a couple things:
- accelerates out Obosh
- accelerates Angler so you can go up to 3 copies (which gives you more threats and helps turn on Stubborn Denial, compensating for lack of Daze)
- makes Street Wraith hardcastable
- helps play Dismember without paying life, if you're under the gun
- enables multi-card plays (e.g Thoughtseize x 2, Shadow)
- accelerates out 3s (SB or main) like Ashiok, Plague Engineer and Liliana

The usual drawback of Dark Ritual is it's card disadvantage and a terrible topdeck. But with Companion you always have a threat to accelerate out, and that free card makes up the card disadvantage.

A midgame Dark Ritual basically turns into Berserk on your attacking Shadow/Angler/Delver, only they don't die. If you untap and still have Obosh, that's even better.

[Mr. Safety]

I can definitely see the potential of Obosh, with the obvious hesitancy being the loss of Daze. I think that is solved easily by 2x Stubborn Denial/2x Force of Negation in the maindeck.

How was Dark Ritual getting added in? I can see -2 Reanimate, but how do the other 2 copies get crammed in?

EDIT: I found the post, here is the list. Pretty cool, actually. I would never have applied Dark Ritual to Shadow, it just wasn't on my radar screen. Now it's basically enabling a better Temur Battle Rage with Obosh, allows for more copies of Gurmag, which makes Stubborn Denial better, which makes up for the lack of Daze...pretty damn cool. With no outlets for legacy currently this seems like a pipe-dream, but I'll be damned if it doesn't look spicy (and fun) as hell. I think I would probably still stick to 18 lands and just cut a Wasteland. That allows for a 2nd Force of Negation, a 4th Street Wraith, 1x Preordain, or even a 3rd Stubborn Denial.




//Spells: 27
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
4 Dark Ritual
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Fatal Push
2 Dismember
1 Force of Negation

//Creatures: 14
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Death's Shadow
3 Street Wraith
3 Gurmag Angler

//Lands: 19
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Watery Grave
1 Underground Sea
2 Snow-Covered Island
2 Snow-Covered Swamp

//Sideboard: 15
1 Obosh, the Preypiercer
2 Plague Engineer
1 Dread of Night
1 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Negation
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Ashiok, Dream Render
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Reanimate
1 Murderous Cut


Dark Ritual makes it a bit easier to hit 5 mana. Even if you never hit 5, it's not like you lost a card in hand for Obosh.
Ritual can also help cast Angler, like old decks used to do with Tombstalker (3 mana + 1 card).

The only splash that might be worth it is Red for Lightning Bolt (more answers to Lurrus & doubled damage) and Pyroblast in the SB.

Bolt and Pyroblast seem great, but I don't know if they are necessary. Chalice is a bigger problem with this list, but Force of Negation helps a little with that. I'm not sure what the best Chalice answer is in odd casting costs. I suppose g2 we could sideboard in Abrade/Ratchet Bomb/Steady Progress, but I'm not sure how that works with the Companion rules.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I can definitely see the potential of Obosh, with the obvious hesitancy being the loss of Daze. I think that is solved easily by 2x Stubborn Denial/2x Force of Negation in the maindeck.

How was Dark Ritual getting added in? I can see -2 Reanimate, but how do the other 2 copies get crammed in?

EDIT: I found the post, here is the list. Pretty cool, actually. I would never have applied Dark Ritual to Shadow, it just wasn't on my radar screen. Now it's basically enabling a better Temur Battle Rage with Obosh, allows for more copies of Gurmag, which makes Stubborn Denial better, which makes up for the lack of Daze...pretty damn cool. With no outlets for legacy currently this seems like a pipe-dream, but I'll be damned if it doesn't look spicy (and fun) as hell. I think I would probably still stick to 18 lands and just cut a Wasteland. That allows for a 2nd Force of Negation, a 4th Street Wraith, 1x Preordain, or even a 3rd Stubborn Denial.



Bolt and Pyroblast seem great, but I don't know if they are necessary. Chalice is a bigger problem with this list, but Force of Negation helps a little with that. I'm not sure what the best Chalice answer is in odd casting costs. I suppose g2 we could sideboard in Abrade/Ratchet Bomb/Steady Progress, but I'm not sure how that works with the Companion rules.That won't work with Companion. Try Ingot Chewer vs. Chalice, perhaps?

There is also Bedevil, but that costs bunches...

[Fox]

That won't work with Companion. Try Ingot Chewer vs. Chalice, perhaps?

There is also Bedevil, but that costs bunches...

Answer all 4 Chalice in their deck (regardless of how many are in play for x=1) with an instant that draws a card: Steady Progress. Don’t splash colors that add nothing, don’t merely 1 for 1, take out all 4 copies of Chalice.

[aedrew]

Well, took my list above to a 3-2 finish in a league. Never put Obosh on the stack. Didn't really miss Daze except for in the Sneak and Show matchup (which I sadly lost).
I might try a version with a configuration that uses Obosh for matches where Wastelands are bad but uses 2 cmc cards for other match ups.

[Mr. Safety]

That won't work with Companion. Try Ingot Chewer vs. Chalice, perhaps?

There is also Bedevil, but that costs bunches...

I would probably use By Force, it's more flexible. If Reanimate was still tech in the deck, maybe Ingot Chewer would be an option. I've mostly dropped Reanimate in favor of maindeck Brazen Borrower. I also don't think something like Manic Vandal would be bad. Being a body that can chump a Rabblemaster seems like it wouldn't be irrelevant.

EDIT: Obosh doesn't cut off Borrower does it? The converted cost is in the upper right, so I think its ok, but not totally sure.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I would probably use By Force, it's more flexible. If Reanimate was still tech in the deck, maybe Ingot Chewer would be an option. I've mostly dropped Reanimate in favor of maindeck Brazen Borrower. I also don't think something like Manic Vandal would be bad. Being a body that can chump a Rabblemaster seems like it wouldn't be irrelevant.

EDIT: Obosh doesn't cut off Borrower does it? The converted cost is in the upper right, so I think its ok, but not totally sure.I am pretty sure that you can't play Borrower as Petty Theft also has a casting cost, and it is even. Split cards' mana costs are located somewhere other than the upper right-hand corner of the card, and either side of Fire//Ice can be Spell Snare'd. Not a judge, though.

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[FTW]

It sounds like Obosh is much worse without Dark Ritual. UB Shadow doesn't hit 5 mana easily... which probably came up when you never put Obosh on the stack. If you didn't miss Daze though then the opportunity cost is low.

Yeah my cuts were basically 2 Reanimate, 2 Borrower. The slots could be tweaked. 4th Street Wraith is probably worth it, maybe over a land. If a non-Wasteland land can afford to go, that seems best. Wasteland seems very strong in this Lurrus/Karakas meta with greedy manabases.

The red splash is probably win-more with Bolt. Ingot Chewer seems weak. By Force and Shattering Spree answer Chalice, but Steady Progress could too and also has synergy with SB walkers. Brazen Borrower is a temporary fix but they will just recast it.

You should be able to play Borrower and use Petty Theft. The companion restriction is about the CMC of the card in your library (3), not the CMC of the spell on the stack (3 or 2). Keruga decks (cmc 3 or more) can use Borrower and cast Petty Theft.

[aedrew]

I am pretty sure that you can't play Borrower as Petty Theft also has a casting cost, and it is even. Split cards' mana costs are located somewhere other than the upper right-hand corner of the card, and either side of Fire//Ice can be Spell Snare'd. Not a judge, though.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

You can play Brazen Borrower. "An adventurer card is a creature card in every zone except the stack, as well as while on the stack if not cast as an Adventure. Ignore its alternative characteristics in those cases." (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/throne-eldraine-release-notes-2019-09-20)

[Tobitzki]

@FTW 100% agree that Dark Ritual is non-negotiable with Obosh. Not buying the argument for the 3rd Angler, though. You don't need extra Ritual payoffs, because the 5-drop is guaranteed and because hardcasting Wraith and the 2 Gurmags already adds 6 high-cost options within the structure of the deck as is.

Re: outs for Chalice: Brazen Borrowers are fine, but I really like Rushing River here. Since we have to wait an extra turn to remove a Chalice, the chance to bounce a second hate piece is pretty useful. Red splash definitely not needed.

With easier access to BB / BBB via Ritual while dropping Daze, we're also incentivized to run the safer mana base of Island, Swamp, USea (along 3 Watery Graves).

Last point: Without Daze, I think we could shave a Wasteland and find space for 1-2 Spell Snares as additional hard counters. Otherwise, I personally still like Pierce over Stubby D.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

You can play Brazen Borrower. "An adventurer card is a creature card in every zone except the stack, as well as while on the stack if not cast as an Adventure. Ignore its alternative characteristics in those cases." (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/throne-eldraine-release-notes-2019-09-20)Thanks. I had looked but couldn't find an answer.

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[FTW]

Not buying the argument for the 3rd Angler, though. You don't need extra Ritual payoffs, because the 5-drop is guaranteed and because hardcasting Wraith and the 2 Gurmags already adds 6 high-cost options within the structure of the deck as is.

Good point. The 3rd Angler is probably unnecessary. Its main value would be turning on Stubborn Denial (which Obosh and Wraith can't), but if you run Snare or Pierce instead then there really is no justification.

Re Chalice: Is bounce good enough? It works for combo because they plan to go off all in one turn. A deck like this will EOT bounce Chalice, untap and cast some stuff, then they play Chalice again. Is a temporary answer good enough?

[Tobitzki]

Is a temporary answer good enough?

I mean, of all Delver decks, DS at least has the most formidable threats, so hopefully you can drop something big enough to win, or (cantrip into) Force or Thoughtseize. You wouldn't wanna bounce without a decent follow-up play in the first place.

This is obviously meta dependent, but a 3cmc proliferate spell just strikes me as super narrow as long as Bridge, Trinisphere, Blood Moon, Painter stuff, PWs, etc. are all out there too. (Didn't Shadow already go through this debate when Throne of Geth saw some play for a hot minute back in 2018?)

[Mr. Safety]

@FTW 100% agree that Dark Ritual is non-negotiable with Obosh. Not buying the argument for the 3rd Angler, though. You don't need extra Ritual payoffs, because the 5-drop is guaranteed and because hardcasting Wraith and the 2 Gurmags already adds 6 high-cost options within the structure of the deck as is.

Re: outs for Chalice: Brazen Borrowers are fine, but I really like Rushing River here. Since we have to wait an extra turn to remove a Chalice, the chance to bounce a second hate piece is pretty useful. Red splash definitely not needed.

With easier access to BB / BBB via Ritual while dropping Daze, we're also incentivized to run the safer mana base of Island, Swamp, USea (along 3 Watery Graves).

Last point: Without Daze, I think we could shave a Wasteland and find space for 1-2 Spell Snares as additional hard counters. Otherwise, I personally still like Pierce over Stubby D.

Rushing River is a cool idea, especially by utilizing Wasteland as your land sacrifice where it would be otherwise dead (Snow decks, etc.) I don't think its nearly as good as Borrower though. If companions have taught us anything its that having an extra creature available outside the game, whenever you have the convenience of playing it, is very good.

@FTW: I think bounce is good enough in the Moon Stompy matchup. Bouncing Chalice for a turn puts it back into their hand where this deck can deal with it the easiest, either with Thoughtseize or a counterspell. Opening up a couple cantrips to shape the game after a bounce gives really good odds of stabilizing as well. I've been of the mindset that I am always playing a basic Island and Swamp in Shadow to help offset imbalanced Chalice matchups. Add to that additional free counters (Force of Negation) and Borrower (bounce it, then discard/counter it) and you're getting closer to an even matchup. It isn't ideal, but that matchup won't ever be ideal.

@Tobitzki: I tend to agree on Steady Progress. If this deck had a stronger emphasis on PW's then it would be synergy and card advantage alongside hosing. Without that it's just super narrow. I'd rather just play more powerful, broadly applicable sideboard cards. The Throne of Geth tech happened at the pro-Tour as well, which means they weren't going into a blind metagame. They were focused on a narrower range of decks, so that was really a metagame call.

[Tobitzki]

Rushing River is a cool idea, especially by utilizing Wasteland as your land sacrifice where it would be otherwise dead (Snow decks, etc.) I don't think its nearly as good as Borrower though. If companions have taught us anything its that having an extra creature available outside the game, whenever you have the convenience of playing it, is very good.

You're totally right about Brazen Bouncer > Rushing River. I like RR also as a double tempo play in a racing situation, but ultimately it might be nice as a spicy one-of only if we want more than 2 bounce effects. It's probably correct to run 2 BBs first.

And so for me it was the other way around: As soon as I saw Lurrus I thought of Brazen Boi, thinking how insanely busted a guaranteed, pre-Adventured 3-drop with repeat super-Unearth would be.

[Izor]

Well, now we all know this was secretly the reason why Borrower was playable in the first place. Both halves of the card are Pauper material at best, but getting a free card is just that powerful in Magic. I wish WotC had known that before Ikoria...

[Mr. Safety]

So Lurrus and Zirda are out...does this mean Obosh is more playable now?

[Izor]

Well, I'm still not sure about a 5 drop creature in a deck that otherwise tries everything it can to never have 5 lands in play. We have the lowest mana curve in Legacy with every standard maindeck card costing either zero or 1 total mana to cast...

Given how unlikeiy it is for us to cast it I don't think it's quite worth losing Daze and all of the somewhat efficient answers to Chalice of the Void in the sideboard. Everything else I think is easily replaceable and wouldn't be worth more than having a guaranteed 5-drop to cast every now and then. What do people play over Daze in Obosh builds? Pierce/Snare/Stubborn?

I've also seen/heard about Dark Ritual builds but I don't like that idea personally. Dark Ritual is practically a blank piece of cardboard outside of casting Obosh. And Obosh is just a bad card by itself, because it's only good when you already have big Shadows getting through anyway. It's not like a 6/5 for 5 is was any good in Legacy. It creates a deck with two different plans that don't really synergize with each other. Half a tempo deck with 4 dead cards, half a ramp into Obosh deck that's not even good without the first half, and most importantly Obosh doesn't solve any of the issues big Shadows usually have. They don't have issues with too low power... they have issues getting through Strix/Coatl/TNN/Pyromancer and Oko. Maybe builds with Berserk could make better use of Obosh, not sure.

No matter how you slice it, this deck loses to anything Snowko throws at it when it resolves, so I think the only niche it still has is being fast, tempo-based and super mana efficient to go under more powerful things. I've been playing a list which is more focused on leveraging Shadow as a card and being as streamlined and efficient as possible, with Thought Scours over Delvers (otherwise pretty standard). I think it's better than the standard Delver builds right now.

[Mr. Safety]

Well, I'm still not sure about a 5 drop creature in a deck that otherwise tries everything it can to never have 5 lands in play. We have the lowest mana curve in Legacy with every standard maindeck card costing either zero or 1 total mana to cast...

Given how unlikeiy it is for us to cast it I don't think it's quite worth losing Daze and all of the somewhat efficient answers to Chalice of the Void in the sideboard. Everything else I think is easily replaceable and wouldn't be worth more than having a guaranteed 5-drop to cast every now and then. What do people play over Daze in Obosh builds? Pierce/Snare/Stubborn?

I've also seen/heard about Dark Ritual builds but I don't like that idea personally. Dark Ritual is practically a blank piece of cardboard outside of casting Obosh. And Obosh is just a bad card by itself, because it's only good when you already have big Shadows getting through anyway. It's not like a 6/5 for 5 is was any good in Legacy. It creates a deck with two different plans that don't really synergize with each other. Half a tempo deck with 4 dead cards, half a ramp into Obosh deck that's not even good without the first half, and most importantly Obosh doesn't solve any of the issues big Shadows usually have. They don't have issues with too low power... they have issues getting through Strix/Coatl/TNN/Pyromancer and Oko. Maybe builds with Berserk could make better use of Obosh, not sure.

No matter how you slice it, this deck loses to anything Snowko throws at it when it resolves, so I think the only niche it still has is being fast, tempo-based and super mana efficient to go under more powerful things. I've been playing a list which is more focused on leveraging Shadow as a card and being as streamlined and efficient as possible, with Thought Scours over Delvers (otherwise pretty standard). I think it's better than the standard Delver builds right now.

Are you playing more Gurmags because of Scour? Maindeck Borrowers?

[Tobitzki]

Dark Ritual is practically a blank piece of cardboard outside of casting Obosh.

Not true. (see my above post): Fist of all, the statement doesn't make much sense, because Obosh is guaranteed, and second: we have Gurmags and Street Wraiths to cast within the established shell and can bring in 3cmc bombs like Lily, Plague Engineer, Ashiok and your choice of Phyrexian Arena or Infernal Contract postboard. As a matter of fact, Dark Ritual makes more reliable T2 Anglers than Thought Scour. A 6/5 that's Bolt-, Decay-, and Push-proof is nothing to sneeze at in Legacy.

The big loss here is really just Daze. And the nightmare MU remains Tundra/Swords, but I really don't see how going down threats and adding a bad cantrip helps there. As Dead of Winter currently sees more play than Terminus, I'd rather add big beaters hoping to overwhelm their 1-for-1 removal before they can turn DoW into a blowout.

To me the question is still: Without Daze do we move towards midrange (Oko) or aggro (more threats, e.g. Porcelain Legionnaire, Knight of Ebon Legion, etc.).

[Fox]

If you’re playing Dark Rit, the best cheese is turn 1 Last Hope and rush for ult.

[Izor]

Not true. (see my above post): Fist of all, the statement doesn't make much sense, because Obosh is guaranteed, and second: we have Gurmags and Street Wraiths to cast within the established shell and can bring in 3cmc bombs like Lily, Plague Engineer, Ashiok and your choice of Phyrexian Arena or Infernal Contract postboard. As a matter of fact, Dark Ritual makes more reliable T2 Anglers than Thought Scour. A 6/5 that's Bolt-, Decay-, and Push-proof is nothing to sneeze at in Legacy.

The big loss here is really just Daze. And the nightmare MU remains Tundra/Swords, but I really don't see how going down threats and adding a bad cantrip helps there. As Dead of Winter currently sees more play than Terminus, I'd rather add big beaters hoping to overwhelm their 1-for-1 removal before they can turn DoW into a blowout.

To me the question is still: Without Daze do we move towards midrange (Oko) or aggro (more threats, e.g. Porcelain Legionnaire, Knight of Ebon Legion, etc.).

Thought Scour is as fast as DRit at rushing Anglers. DRit is +2 mana, Scour is +2 cards in yard. Given that the card you draw off it could be the zero mana spell you needed in addition to cast Angler it is actually true to say that Scour is faster than DRit at that.

I'm also not running Scour because it's a great cantrip, it's mostly there to find Shadows faster, which is the only card in this deck that makes it Legacy playable. If you mill it you can Reanimate it. I cut the Delvers for them because of how bad Delver is in this deck. Scour has definitely been better than Delver. I think you need to play a turn 1 play in Delver's place once you cut it, because Daze gets too much worse when you don't have a turn 1 play.

I get that you can cast 3-drops on turn 1 with DRit. That's a fine play for Pox, which plays Hymns and several other ways to get card advantage after that turn 1 CA loss. In a tempo deck a one-time +2 mana isn't worth being a full card down, especially when you also play 5 Forces that 2-for-1 yourself. If that was even remotedly good you'd see people play Rite of Flames in UR Delver too, but you don't.

Don't get me wrong, cutting threats does indeed not help the Tundra matchup. In all honesty, and I've said that before, when you currently choose to register a Shadow deck in Legacy you're hoping to dodge Snowko or you lose. Shadow decks cannot beat it under normal circumstances and pretending to get enough percentage points with any alteration of the Shadow plan is wishful thinking. Their entire deck is super anti-Shadow (Coatl, Plow, Oko) and your deck is geared towards making Shadow good and mediocre at anything else. It just can't work.

Daze is hands down one of the best cards in UB Shadow. The more aggressive and low curve you are the better it gets of course, but in the shells that maximize it it's irreplaceable.

I think if you're trying to make DRit into Obosh work you should probably cut blue and play a Pox-style list with Shadows, Anglers and Obosh as its win conditions. I'm not expecting UB Obosh Shadow to get any noticeable results, and so far I think there have been none.

[Mr. Safety]

Thought Scour is as fast as DRit at rushing Anglers. DRit is +2 mana, Scour is +2 cards in yard. Given that the card you draw off it could be the zero mana spell you needed in addition to cast Angler it is actually true to say that Scour is faster than DRit at that.

I'm also not running Scour because it's a great cantrip, it's mostly there to find Shadows faster, which is the only card in this deck that makes it Legacy playable. If you mill it you can Reanimate it. I cut the Delvers for them because of how bad Delver is in this deck. Scour has definitely been better than Delver. I think you need to play a turn 1 play in Delver's place once you cut it, because Daze gets too much worse when you don't have a turn 1 play.

I get that you can cast 3-drops on turn 1 with DRit. That's a fine play for Pox, which plays Hymns and several other ways to get card advantage after that turn 1 CA loss. In a tempo deck a one-time +2 mana isn't worth being a full card down, especially when you also play 5 Forces that 2-for-1 yourself. If that was even remotedly good you'd see people play Rite of Flames in UR Delver too, but you don't.

Don't get me wrong, cutting threats does indeed not help the Tundra matchup. In all honesty, and I've said that before, when you currently choose to register a Shadow deck in Legacy you're hoping to dodge Snowko or you lose. Shadow decks cannot beat it under normal circumstances and pretending to get enough percentage points with any alteration of the Shadow plan is wishful thinking. Their entire deck is super anti-Shadow (Coatl, Plow, Oko) and your deck is geared towards making Shadow good and mediocre at anything else. It just can't work.

Daze is hands down one of the best cards in UB Shadow. The more aggressive and low curve you are the better it gets of course, but in the shells that maximize it it's irreplaceable.

I think if you're trying to make DRit into Obosh work you should probably cut blue and play a Pox-style list with Shadows, Anglers and Obosh as its win conditions. I'm not expecting UB Obosh Shadow to get any noticeable results, and so far I think there have been none.

I follow the logic of playing Scour, so does that mean you could support 4 Gurmag Anglers?

[Izor]

In slower games I do get to cast the second Angler pretty often, though it's still a very bad card to draw in multiples early. I haven't tried 4 yet, though 3 is perfectly doable, so 4 shouldn't be impossible either outside of the small percentage of cases where you draw the third and never get to brainstorm it away.

My current list is very good against anything that doesn't have Plows or Decays, you could say I'm trying to leverage the deck's strengths instead of trying to patch up weaknesses which I think can't really be fixed without an immense investment of main and side slots. I'm trying to play the TSeize/Hymn/Daze/FoW/Wasteland game to hopefully run the opp out of cards before I drop a Shadow and swing twice for the win while they topdeck more lands than me. That's not reliable, though neither is diluting your deck with more expensive midrange cards that end up losing to their midrange cards anyway.

[Tobitzki]

Thought Scour is as fast as DRit at rushing Anglers. DRit is +2 mana, Scour is +2 cards in yard. Given that the card you draw off it could be the zero mana spell you needed in addition to cast Angler it is actually true to say that Scour is faster than DRit at that.

This whole argument might be obsolete after Monday's potential Companion-nerf, but just for the record: Your only line here is T1 Scour into T2 Angler with exactly 2 fetches (leaving out free spells for the sake of argument). Otherwise TS equals +3 delve cards but -1mana while DR is +1card +2mana. For Ritualing out a T2 Angler, we can T1 Thought Seize/Ponder +1 Fetch, or T1 Delver +2 Fetches (also not counting Forces or Wraiths). I'm no Frank Karsten, but it seems at the very least a wash, just that we're actually doing something useful T1.

Regarding lack of results: Well, no version of Shadow has been putting up results since Ikoria, as far as I know, but the way meta has evolved since Cat & Fox came and went, this is hardly proof that Obosh isn't worth dabbling around with. The fact is noone takes Shadow into an online meta full of Snow. My point about Dark Ritual stands: It's never dead because Companion, there are 6-9 additional Ritual payoffs in the shell as is, plus 3-4 sideboard bombs, and the inherent card disadvantage is offset by ... Companion.

Where I'm not arguing is Daze; perhaps it really is the indispensable MVP here.

[Izor]

This whole argument might be obsolete after Monday's potential Companion-nerf, but just for the record: Your only line here is T1 Scour into T2 Angler with exactly 2 fetches (leaving out free spells for the sake of argument). Otherwise TS equals +3 delve cards but -1mana while DR is +1card +2mana. For Ritualing out a T2 Angler, we can T1 Thought Seize/Ponder +1 Fetch, or T1 Delver +2 Fetches (also not counting Forces or Wraiths). I'm no Frank Karsten, but it seems at the very least a wash, just that we're actually doing something useful T1.

Regarding lack of results: Well, no version of Shadow has been putting up results since Ikoria, as far as I know, but the way meta has evolved since Cat & Fox came and went, this is hardly proof that Obosh isn't worth dabbling around with. The fact is noone takes Shadow into an online meta full of Snow. My point about Dark Ritual stands: It's never dead because Companion, there are 6-9 additional Ritual payoffs in the shell as is, plus 3-4 sideboard bombs, and the inherent card disadvantage is offset by ... Companion.

Where I'm not arguing is Daze; perhaps it really is the indispensable MVP here.

I did the math wrong, it's true that DRit is essentially +1 on Thought Scour. However, you don't need to waste your turn 1 on Scour necessarily. You can turn 1 fetch into Ponder/TSeize (2 in yard), turn 2 fetch into Scour (6 in yard) to cast Angler anyway. It doesn't work with Delver, but I'm not playing that anyway. And it does require 2 fetches, but I play 9-10, so it's often doable. Especially when Force/Daze/Wraith/Snuff work their way into the equation.

Classic CFB UB Shadow has put up a few results on MTGO since Ikoria, though very few. As I said, the deck is terrible against the number 1 deck in the format and thus just not optimal to play at the moment. I play it mainly for fun, but wouldn't register it for any tournaments.

[MythicCommon]

There's no way obosh is the direction shadow is going. show us wins in stream/YouTube if you think otherwise. this deck is a combo killer hedging into free and cheap interaction plus a fast clock. it was said earlier that it has essentially the lowest mean cmc and it got results earlier for that reason which means that deviating is just moving to a worse version or a different deck. save any grind for the board.

Concerning snoko what do y'all think of a mb 2 berserk, sb sylvan library/abrupt decay deck? still hedging the cheap cmc configuration as stated. also what is your threat configuration at this point? especially if youre excluding delver what is the replacement? maybe goyf in green but that's 2 cmc

[Fox]

Not much of a deck left if you cut Delver as they never replaced DRS with a generically playable black 1-drop. Look at the amount of duals in the deck and understand that aggressive mana base without getting ahead on board early to discourage retaliatory on-the-draw Wasteland from opponent is a bad place to be.

Higher risk to rely on off-core (non-UB) openers like Hexdrinker or Reclaimer (or the mana dudes, who alongside Shadow isn’t a great combo), since they’re much slower, and Shadow doesn’t really work with any lands-based effects all that well (for Reclaimer). When it comes to playing as hard as possible into Ice-Fang/Strix/Snapcaster, few creatures can compete with the failure rate of Goyf and Goose.

The best conventional list with BUG would look something like:
4x BS
4x FoW
4x Daze
4x Ponder
4x Thoughtseize (20 slots)

2x FoN
2x Decay
2x Berserk
2x Library
4x Delver
4x Shadow
2x Gurmag (18 slots)

1x Bayou
1x Trop
1x Sea
1x shock-Trop
2x shock-Sea
8x Fetch
4x Wasteland (18 slots)

Pick your last 4 slots, but know that 4x Wraith locks you into mid & late game irrelevance (also it antagonizes Library) and going for PWs or Bobs or Bitterblossoms have their own issues (namely further undermining Daze as game goes longer on back of green use). At no point will anything you’re suggesting change the fact that you’ll be playing sorc-speed summoning sick threats into an Oko, but Library will help against Plow (as long as Wraiths aren’t contaminating that strategy).

[MythicCommon]

Ya I didn't think cutting the delvers was great but the previous comments were suggesting the cut which confused me. My thoughts towards the green splash was to definitely stay as close to the u/b base as possible with just 2 berserk (taking a lesson from modern's femur battle rage) and maybe a couple decay but dismember in that slot still seems great. Then post board adapt into the flexibility of library (which I learned to love combatting StP playing Marit lages) and the decays. Any other green cards that work towards this idea?
Excellent response thank you.

[Fox]

Really quickly on the history of Shadow, it was a legacy deck before a modern one, and also before Battle Rage was printed. It’s important to escape the modern mindset and recognize that Berserk is just as important as a removal spell that ramps down life total. This style of approaching the life loss engine as a constantly shifting puzzle is the key to playing green; it’s not about linearly losing all the life you can, just for the sake of losing life.

The best thing you could probably do with the last four slots are Oko full of Bitterblossom [no Wraith], even if they antagonize the Daze plan. The SB cards green gives you are Return to Nature, Leovold, Veil, Trophy (not more Decay, these ones disrupt lands), and potentially Carpet. As far as the maindeck goes, you don’t really want to go above 4 green cards (Library and Berserk 2-ofs), but you probably lose more than you gain by skipping the 2x Decay. Point there being that there are no more green cards you’d want in the maindeck until DRS (or something really similar) returns.

A really good way to assess cards is asking yourself if they replace what Probe and DRS did: consistency, optional life loss, turn 1 threat, mana security, life gain, anti-GY. If this doesn’t make sense, I would suggest sleeving up the banned version and playing informal games as this will tell you the why these are the priorities of current construction.

Here’s something close enough to classic [as a non-Stifle build]:
4x BS
4x Ponder
4x Probe
4x Daze
4x FoW
4x Seize (24)

4x Delver
4x Shadow
4x DRS
1x Gurmag (13) [option to make another cut, potentially down to 16 lands to get #2]

2x Library
2x Decay
2x Berserk (6)

3x Wasteland
8x Fetch
3/3 split duals and shock duals (17)

[Izor]

Delver is terrible in this deck. It really is and this is no exaggeration. In all my games with this deck I've very rarely ever won on the back of Delvers. The best it does is absorb Plows for Shadows, which it will only do as long as your opponent blindly Plows the first thing they see without knowing the matchup well enough, and pitch to Force. It has no synergy with Shadow whatsoever. When Shadow is good, Delver is almost never needed to win. When Shadow is bad, Delver won't carry you on its own in a deck that does everything to maximize Shadow and nothing to maximize Delver.

In this deck Delver is a million times worse than Shadow and Angler. And when compared to other Delver decks it is a million times worse in Shadow than it is in decks with 5 Bolts, Pyromancers, Arcanists and maindeck Borrowers as well as more instants/sorceries in general thanks to Street Wraith. It's outclassed in everything it tries to do in this deck. We don't have DRS or any other obvious replacement available to us, but that doesn't mean that Delver is the next best thing to fill those last 4 slots. I'm still experimenting with different things in those slots and most of them have been better than Delver already.


I do like the idea to play green for Berzerk and I've been testing it a decent amount, though ultimately I've always found it to look better than it actually plays out in practise. In theory Berzerk looks like a hybrid between a pseudo-Dismember and a one-shot kill through problematic blockers, which is incredible. However, it's very unreliable at either of those jobs. As a removal spell it's much better on defense than on offense... and Shadow is inherently a deck that will be the aggressor in all matchups where creature removal spells are needed, because we're basically unable to play defense due to our auto-lifeloss. And if you're trying to use it as a one-shot kill you have to ask yourselves in what matchups that's even good. Against combo you don't need it, you'd rather stick with a solid UB mana base and take that one extra turn to kill them after you've disrupted them. The real reason to play Berzerk is against Strik/Coatl/TNN and last time I checked all the decks playing those also have 4 Plows (in addition to Decays in most cases), which make Berzerk really bad.

I still think the idea is viable, but you have to deal with the fact that your deck loses a good amount of consistency in its primary gameplan. Looking at Fox's list above it's apparent that it's impossible to accomodate all the lands you'd want to have in the deck, for instance. In terms of colors you probably want exactly one UG and one BG land, but that makes it impossible to play both as both a regular and a shock dual. That would require 4 green sources minimum, which is plain terrible in a Hymn + Daze deck. The best you can do is probably 9 fetch, 1 usea, 2 grave plus either Tropical plus Overgrown Tomb or Breeding Pool plus Bayou.

I'm also worried about the lack of life loss in that list given that Wraith is not a part of the deck. Berzerk is at its best if you actually one-shot them through a 1 thoughness blocker with it, so you need enough control over your life points. No Dismember/Snuff and no Wraith is questionable at least. I do realize that those cards are often bad mid to late game, but honestly if you decide to register Death's Shadows you just deal with that. You'd rather draw risky or even dead cards in the lategame sometimes than not maximize the one thing that gives your deck a niche in the metagame, which is play large threats for one mana as early as possible.

[Mr. Safety]

What cards are you trying out instead of Delver? This deck is built on pure efficiency, playing 5/5's, 9/9's, and sometimes 3/4's (reanimate Street Wraith) for one black mana. Delver is the next best efficient threat in these colors that you can play to provide early pressure. You can't play Shadow or Gurmag t1, so you need something to get the ball rolling besides a Thoughtseize or cantrip. You need to be killing them faster than you kill yourself or the deck just flops. Cutting delver would likely be the worst thing you could possibly do, in my humble opinion.

Regarding Berserk and a green splash: I've wanted to try it, but it doesn't reliably do what you want. Your removal ends up being less efficient (Decay instead of Push/Dismember/Snuff Out) and your 1-2 Berserks are rarely seen in most games. Sylvan Library is amazing but again not as efficient as a couple more cantrips like Preordain. I think the correct splash color, if there is one, is red for Lightning Bolts. It provides removal to clear blockers and reach, making the deck more aggressive. I probably wouldn't play Temur Battle Rage over something much more useful like Abrade or Pyroblast. You don't need a 'combo' to race other combo decks, you're already favored with Thoughtseize/Daze/Force of Will/Force of Negation/sideboard Hymns. I tried playing Stifle-Dreadnought with this deck, cutting Delvers. It ended up being worse due to being weaker to opposing blue-stew decks and being about the same against the combo decks, so no gain while also having additional 'bad' cards like Stifle. It ended up being a net loss in function.

One thing I've been curious to try is to play a full set of Brazen Borrower instead of Delver. It isn't as efficient but adds a ton of utility, especially against Planeswalkers and Chalice of the Void. Being at instant speed lets you keep up interaction and still play it out as a threat EOT. It hits as hard as Delver, has the same evasion, it's just not as good as Delver on-curve.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

What cards are you trying out instead of Delver? This deck is built on pure efficiency, playing 5/5's, 9/9's, and sometimes 3/4's (reanimate Street Wraith) for one black mana. Delver is the next best efficient threat in these colors that you can play to provide early pressure. You can't play Shadow or Gurmag t1, so you need something to get the ball rolling besides a Thoughtseize or cantrip. You need to be killing them faster than you kill yourself or the deck just flops. Cutting delver would likely be the worst thing you could possibly do, in my humble opinion.

Regarding Berserk and a green splash: I've wanted to try it, but it doesn't reliably do what you want. Your removal ends up being less efficient (Decay instead of Push/Dismember/Snuff Out) and your 1-2 Berserks are rarely seen in most games. Sylvan Library is amazing but again not as efficient as a couple more cantrips like Preordain. I think the correct splash color, if there is one, is red for Lightning Bolts. It provides removal to clear blockers and reach, making the deck more aggressive. I probably wouldn't play Temur Battle Rage over something much more useful like Abrade or Pyroblast. You don't need a 'combo' to race other combo decks, you're already favored with Thoughtseize/Daze/Force of Will/Force of Negation/sideboard Hymns. I tried playing Stifle-Dreadnought with this deck, cutting Delvers. It ended up being worse due to being weaker to opposing blue-stew decks and being about the same against the combo decks, so no gain while also having additional 'bad' cards like Stifle. It ended up being a net loss in function.

One thing I've been curious to try is to play a full set of Brazen Borrower instead of Delver. It isn't as efficient but adds a ton of utility, especially against Planeswalkers and Chalice of the Void. Being at instant speed lets you keep up interaction and still play it out as a threat EOT. It hits as hard as Delver, has the same evasion, it's just not as good as Delver on-curve.I like borrower as an idea. It is a pretty tempo-y card, and has good synergy with Thoughtseize.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[Maximus]

First let me state that I really like Delver in this deck. The point is to get them dead, and I really like that early Delver makes early Daze / Wasteland / Thoughtseize better just by existing. I agree that it almost never wins the game as a threat, but I almost always find myself trading early cards favorably only to drop Big Boy threats turns 3-4 and winning from there. So I wouldn't cut it.

That said, for a while I did consider Preordain over it directly and going to 12 cantrips. Ponder and Preordain are basically everything you want to be doing in the first 3 turns:

- fueling Angler delve
- finding cards that lower your life total for Shadow
- finding cards that protect your Angler / Shadow
- finding sideboard cards to answer specific issues
- still pitches to Forces

This is also a lot of what Ben Friedman was trying to do with flippy Jace except it digs better for less mana and is harder to trade with for value.

I also don't like the random 3 drops of Nemesis / Borrower / Clique. 3 Mana takes forever in this deck. By the time I have 3 on the board I want to be doing like Thoughtseize into 2x 6/6 Shadow. Honestly I would rather start testing Gargoyle before playing a 3 drop. Or a 3rd Angler.

Disclaimer* I also cut the 2x Force of Negation and 2x Reanimate for a full set of Hymn. So my Delver is slightly weaker than the stock list since I can't rebuy them. Delver might be better with Reanimate but I think that card is a brick too often to justify playing it. But Gargoyle might be better after Hymn.

[kombatkiwi]

First let me state that I really like Delver in this deck. The point is to get them dead, and I really like that early Delver makes early Daze / Wasteland / Thoughtseize better just by existing. I agree that it almost never wins the game as a threat, but I almost always find myself trading early cards favorably only to drop Big Boy threats turns 3-4 and winning from there. So I wouldn't cut it.

That said, for a while I did consider Preordain over it directly and going to 12 cantrips. Ponder and Preordain are basically everything you want to be doing in the first 3 turns:

- fueling Angler delve
- finding cards that lower your life total for Shadow
- finding cards that protect your Angler / Shadow
- finding sideboard cards to answer specific issues
- still pitches to Forces

This is also a lot of what Ben Friedman was trying to do with flippy Jace except it digs better for less mana and is harder to trade with for value.

I also don't like the random 3 drops of Nemesis / Borrower / Clique. 3 Mana takes forever in this deck. By the time I have 3 on the board I want to be doing like Thoughtseize into 2x 6/6 Shadow. Honestly I would rather start testing Gargoyle before playing a 3 drop. Or a 3rd Angler.

Disclaimer* I also cut the 2x Force of Negation and 2x Reanimate for a full set of Hymn. So my Delver is slightly weaker than the stock list since I can't rebuy them. Delver might be better with Reanimate but I think that card is a brick too often to justify playing it. But Gargoyle might be better after Hymn.

Flippy jace was played because it's card advantage, you can't really compare it to preordain.
I kind of agree about 3drops (at least in the maindeck) borrower might be ok because it at least does something at 2 mana.
Delver is very rarely a reanimate target anyway so I don't think that's much of a consideration.

Overall one thing I dislike about the positioning of this deck in the metagame right now is the prevailing UGWx control decks have shifted to black instead of red, which means they have Decays as a clean answer to Liliana, but the popularity of snow in general seems to have diminished a bit and RUG now seems to be the most played deck, so maybe it's possible to make it work.
Snuff Out is a card I feel could be particularly good at the moment (pretty solid vs Arcanist / Goyf / Mandrills / GoblinLackeyEtc and not many black creatures in the meta right now)

[Fox]

You guys really ought to get away from play summoning sick dude [after turn 1] -> pass. The high mana, value dudes (Whale/JVP) that fall into this category aren't doing you any favors vs Oko either. It's fine to be dedicated to the archetype, but I think chasing the next turn 1 black 1-drop to pair with Delver (Thieves' Guild Enforcer, which combos decently with Drown) is probably going to be a more successful venture.

RUG Delver is easier to beat for you than Grixis Delver before the bans, but in general you don't want to run into Delver + Bolt decks. You're not doing yourselves any favors by mirroring the slowing down that's going on in those already unfavorable matchups (especially since your comeback tools are worse ~ Pyroblast'able). Get back into the paint with 8x 1-drops (or move to UB Standstill or Dreadstill). Also you know people are getting their value from Dreadhorde, use Cling to Dust.

[kombatkiwi]

You guys really ought to get away from play summoning sick dude [after turn 1] -> pass. The high mana, value dudes (Whale/JVP) that fall into this category aren't doing you any favors vs Oko either. It's fine to be dedicated to the archetype, but I think chasing the next turn 1 black 1-drop to pair with Delver (Thieves' Guild Enforcer, which combos decently with Drown) is probably going to be a more successful venture.

RUG Delver is easier to beat for you than Grixis Delver before the bans, but in general you don't want to run into Delver + Bolt decks. You're not doing yourselves any favors by mirroring the slowing down that's going on in those already unfavorable matchups (especially since your comeback tools are worse ~ Pyroblast'able). Get back into the paint with 8x 1-drops (or move to UB Standstill or Dreadstill). Also you know people are getting their value from Dreadhorde, use Cling to Dust.

If it was so bad to play a threat on turn 2-onwards then you need to explain (preferably in 100 words or less, I know this is difficult for you) why goyf/arcanist are so successful.
If somebody just wants to play UB Delver then I think maybe the Thieves Guild Enforcer is a better pairing with Delver than Shadow, but Shadow still has upsides.
I don't know what "comeback tools" you are referring to but I try to choose cards for that role that are monoblack specifically to dodge pyro.
I think cling to dust is at least a very good SB card, possibly you can play it main as a value 1-of as well

[Fox]

Most of legacy seems to have this morose fascination with chasing down Thing in the Ice by another name (JVP, Whale, Vantress, Pteramander, Stormwind elemental prowess guy). If you know TITI wasn’t going to do the trick, you could extend that logic to these flashes in the pan. These are the Pyroblast’ables, and slinging them into actual Delver (or worse, Snapcaster) has predictable outcomes - but they also all lose to Oko as a function of being cast in main phases with summoning sickness.

Now Goyf is by far the worst card in RUG Delver, but they can’t escape their very own Tarmoabyss which [barring a broken PW] condemns them to their inescapable 2012 irrelevance - they have to run it precisely because they can’t beat it. Arcanist works b/c, unlike the Pyroblast’ables, it’s generally harder to kill and requires so much less work to reliably get out of control on the next turn. More important still, the very next play is the most broken card in the format: Oko...which notably doesn’t die to Snapcaster -> recur the spell they killed Arcanist with. Oko [with the superimposed banning of Lurrus] is, by multiple degrees of magnitude, the most important factor letting RUG near top tables right now. Without Oko, RUG Delver is a bad joke [even after the free boost from DRS ban] that can barely get on board turn 1, and can hardly afford to fire off Wasteland by turn 2. Sure Arcanist is good and all, but he’s just a dude they had to tap out of permission for.

You really don’t want to push up your cmcs and emulate them, because it’ll be a worse knockoff (in the same way that Blade decks are a worse knockoff of 4c SnowOko). It’s a catch 22 though, b/c you’ll generally play into Veil if you go black. It’s a bad spot to be, but you’ve got room on the low end to be about the only Delver deck stocking 8x 1-drop threats (of the turn 1 variety) - this is your creative space. You also happen to have a B instant that beats Veil, undermines known hostile value engines, and generates value in the process [Cling].

[Maximus]

So... maybe this is a bad interpretation, but are you saying that it's best to simply avoid anything with summoning sickness and/or a pyroblast target? Maybe I missed out on the nuance somehow?

If so then I *partially* agree with the idea. Like on one hand it feels pretty bad to have your 2 drop fatal pushed, but on the other hand as kiwi pointed out, those cards can still be really good.

I kind of like this deck though specifically because everything costs 1 (Delver / Shadow / Angler) so at least it's a little harder for the opponent than say Goyf on 2. Sure you can Daze my turn 1 Delver but I'm usually pretty happy with that exchange.

Side note, and maybe this is a hot take, but I'm just not all that worried about 3 CMC sorc speed cards from my opponent most of the time. I usually find that this deck has enough pressure to keep those cards off the table long enough to win.

[Fox]

Side note, and maybe this is a hot take, but I'm just not all that worried about 3 CMC sorc speed cards from my opponent most of the time. I usually find that this deck has enough pressure to keep those cards off the table long enough to win.

So here’s the thing about not playing real Delver structure (8x 1-drop, 4x 2-drop/Shadow, 2x payoff), you have to tap down into their turn 3, putting you on exactly Daze and/or hemorrhaging cards with FoW/FoN into hostile Daze. Stifle isn’t in your deck anymore, so you can’t go around passing turns vs Wasteland (or just giving them time to establish mana to permanently play around Daze). Thoughtseize can help somewhat providing intermezzo, but it also a card you’re trimming postboard, unless they’re playing Stifle against you.

As cool as discard is, it’s also going to heavily incentivize opponents into making consistently aggressive plays to avoid trading important pieces with said discard. If something actually gets through, like say an Oko, your board isn’t going to be equipped to handle him. If instead it’s a Dreadhorde that gets through, you’ve got this hostile card that can barely ramp down your life down to 9 (4/4 Shadow vs Bolt deck) through the attack step, while they go nuts on CA. These aren’t exactly fights you can win by mimicking their slower cmcs - you’re payoffs aren’t going to be as strong...also, they aren’t under credible threat from your Delver.

Now most Delver pilots will foolishly engage resources too soon to fight a [largely meaningless] Delver on principle, which is a significant source of winrate for Shadow...but it’s generally fair to say that this stream runs dry at top tables, where pilots know how to treat life like a resource. Playing leagues on MTGO isn’t going to deterministically hurtle you towards competent Delver + Bolt players, as the matchmaking values speed of pairing alongside of calibre of record.

[kombatkiwi]

Played this at a small local
2-0 vs Jund Phoenix
1-2 vs Hogaak (Kept a seven on the play in g3 with 3 wraiths daze shadow no lands and bricked, have about a 60% chance to hit a coloured land turn 1 in that spot and I probably could have won if I hit turn2 as well, but probably a bit greedy)
1-2 vs Eldrazi Aggro

4 Shadow
4 Gargoyle
4 Wraith

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
1 Preordain
4 Daze
4 FoW
2 Stub
4 Seize
4 Hymn
1 Push
1 Snuff
1 Dismember

4 Wasteland
2 Sea
4 Grave
8 Fetchlands

SB
2 Liliana
2 Triumph
2 Engineer
2 Bargain / Contract
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 FON
2 Cling
1 Mystic Sanctuary

Notes:
- Triumph is not ideal vs Eldrazi because it's not great into Matter Reshaper but I feel like that slot needs to be something applicable vs Depths and I think it's overall preferable to Tyrant's Scorn? Not sure though.
- Cling was obviously slightly worse than e.g. Surgical against Hogaak but that's not the matchup I included it for.

I think in future
-1 Stub
-1 Preordain
+2 Baleful Strix
(optional: swap the other stub for 1 of the SB FON then maybe cut stub from the 75 to open up 1 sb slot)

I've been critical of the suggestion of Strix in the past, but I think it's a powerful card that synergizes with hymn grind plan, solves some issues that the deck has with stabilizing against fast threats, while not going overboard into playing more removal spells like push that are much worse against control/combo.

SB still seems mostly ok but I want to get some more testing of the cling plan against fair decks

[jethstriker]

Is Brazen Borrower still not universally accepted in this deck for it not being included in the primer?

[Ace/Homebrew]

I see 2 in the sideboard in most of the lists that make TCDecks.

[Reeplcheep]

Ark4n seemed to be testing this deck a bit, he was playing 2 eliminates. Anyone else try that card for a clean oko answer?

[kombatkiwi]

Is Brazen Borrower still not universally accepted in this deck for it not being included in the primer?

I would say that the "stock build" of the deck has 2 main. I wouldn't rely on primers much because they can become outdated pretty quickly:

4 Delver
4 Shadow
2 Angler
2 Borrower
4 Wraith

4 Seize
4 FoW
2 FoN
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Removal (like 2 Push + 2 Snuff Out or whatever)

4 Wasteland
14 UB Sources


I think eliminate is a good card, not sure if it fits into my overall sb plan atm but I think it's definitely worth considering

[Mr. Safety]

Brazen Borrower has replaced Reanimate in the couple flex spots maindeck. It's just too versatile to be in your sideboard. My current build is exactly what kombatkiwi just posted. My removal suite is 2x Fatal Push, 1x Dismember, 1x Drown in the Loch. I've toyed around with -1 Gurmag, +1 Reanimate but it doesn't support the Stubborn Denials in my sideboard (which are quite good!)

My current sideboard:
2x Plague Engineer
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Narset, Parter of Veils
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
2x Stubborn Denial
2x Bitterblossom
2x Hymn to Tourach


You have 6 hard answers and 10 soft answers to Oko main: 6 forces and 10 Daze/Thoughtseize/Borrower. I like to board in Hymn/Stubs against Oko specifically, and usually much more against the control/midrange blue stews (Blossom, Narset, Last Hope.)

[jethstriker]

I would say that the "stock build" of the deck has 2 main. I wouldn't rely on primers much because they can become outdated pretty quickl

That's good to know. So its just the case of the primer not being up to date.

How was your experience with Vantress Gargoyle? I can see you're running Hymn but did you have any difficulty in turning the Gargoyle on? Someone earlier mentioned the card Thieves' Guild Enforcer, do you think it can help as an additional yard filler if you're using Gargoyle? It can also act as your 1-drop threat since you already drop Delver.

Another thing, would you say that Gargoyle is better than Delver in a field of Oko? Both requires some setup but Delver is much faster.

[kombatkiwi]

That's good to know. So its just the case of the primer not being up to date.

How was your experience with Vantress Gargoyle? I can see you're running Hymn but did you have any difficulty in turning the Gargoyle on? Someone earlier mentioned the card Thieves' Guild Enforcer, do you think it can help as an additional yard filler if you're using Gargoyle? It can also act as your 1-drop threat since you already drop Delver.

Another thing, would you say that Gargoyle is better than Delver in a field of Oko? Both requires some setup but Delver is much faster.

Gargoyle is not very difficult to turn on (although 4x Hymn is of course a factor in that), usually if you need to activate it 1-2 times that's acceptable. Against Uro it's not great but the overall 75 has a plan for that.
You could play a deck with Thieves Guild Enforcer and Gargoyle but it would be far more aggressively slanted, probably that deck should play 4x Delver also and then it's likely not a Shadow deck.
I prefer to use those extra card slots (from playing fewer creatures) to play more interaction like Hymn to Tourach and then just win with 1 big thing after the dust settles.
You should take this advice with a grain of salt because it's obviously not a popular approach.

The main consideration for playing Delver vs Gargoyle is not really anything to do with oko but I don't like playing Delver in a deck without bolts. I still think the explanation given by Ben Friedman applies


Dimir Death’s Shadow is an incredible deck, but Delver of Secrets does not belong anywhere near it. I still stand by this statement. Delver of Secrets is best with the reach provided by Lightning Bolt, or to provide a bit of early pressure that prompts the opponent to begin acting, thus unlocking your Dazes and Spell Pierces to be effective.

Death’s Shadow needs neither the light pressure of an early Delver nor a way to chip shot in damage prior to ending the game with a pair of Lightning Bolts. It just doesn’t fit in with the gameplan. Death’s Shadow is just a way, way better Grixis Control deck with the ability to actually close out the game.

See, it works like this. Grixis Control wants to trade off resources like cards in hand and creatures on the battlefield and eventually take over the game after a chain of interactive two-for-ones. The hope is that eventually a Jace, the Mind Sculptor will close the game out despite the powerful engines or heavy-hitting topdecks of other Legacy strategies.

In contrast, Delver decks want to temporarily pin their opponents on one resource axis, buying just enough time to finish the game with whichever threat they have found with their copious cantrips. Hymn to Tourach is a Grixis Control card; Spell Pierce and Stifle are Delver cards.

Death’s Shadow is just looking to trade off resources and win the game in a short timeframe after a flurry of tempo-negative discard and Dazes by sticking a 5/5 or larger threat for a single mana.

The plan of hitting an opponent for half of their life total, trading resources, and then deploying a big threat to actually finish the job in one or two turns is substantially worse than just trading the resources even more effectively and deploying the big threat to finish the job in two or three turns.

To trade resources more effectively, you need more virtual copies of your best spells, which means you need the Snapcaster effect. Unfortunately, Snapcaster Mage with Hymn to Tourach is too expensive, but Jace, Vryn’s Prodigy offers the same flexibility with a two-turn mana investment.

Overall I still think this is mostly true but I don't think JVP is the right place to be, because by cutting it you get to play a maindeck creature suite that's lightning-bolt immune. (Of course, you could say the same thing about e.g. Arcanist in RUG Delver, but JVP isn't as good as Arcanist, it doesn't snowball as hard because you can't repeatedly flashback spells with it, and all flashback spells are free unlike JVP where you pay 2 mana for the flashback Hymn in addition to the 2 mana upfront that provides not-much, just a loot and maybe a pw with a plus ability that's not even very good). Instead you can play e.g. the 4th Hymn or some other controlling card (strix maybe) over JVP to achieve the desired 2-for-1 effect.

Partially the other reason why the deck from that article (https://articles.starcitygames.com/premium/how-to-win-scg-syracuse-with-dimir-deaths-shadow/) played 4 Shadow and 2 Angler as the only creature "threats" was that at the time Gargoyle didn't exist, and therefore the only realistic consideration for threats was Angler (or maybe Tombstalker). It's not realistic to play a list with 4 delve cards because it's too hard to have a deep graveyard to cast multiples. At GP Niagara Falls my deck had 2 Tombstalker 2 JVP and then later I tried a list with 2 Gargoyle 2 JVP, then I just cut the JVP and moved to 4 Gargoyle. After HJKaiser figured out the Sanctuary+Painful Truths plan (Cruel Bargain in this deck) you still have the card advantage option that JVP theoretically provided, but it's not vulnerable to cards like e.g. Plow that are also very good against the rest of your deck

[Mr. Safety]

I tried Gargoyle and I was *incredibly* underwhelmed. My personal opinion? Straight garbage. I think of it was any good, in any sort of blue deck, it would be seeing play.

[Fox]

For some reason people who understand the playability of Thing in the Ice fail to recognize alternate versions (ex. Vantress, Whale, Thin Lizzy, Stormwing Entity), which have the same level of playability. Every time you see such a creature ask yourself “how good is TITI really?“ because that‘s the card you‘re considering.

[kombatkiwi]

For some reason people who understand the playability of Thing in the Ice fail to recognize alternate versions (ex. Vantress, Whale, Thin Lizzy, Stormwing Entity), which have the same level of playability. Every time you see such a creature ask yourself “how good is TITI really?“ because that‘s the card you‘re considering.

Thing in the ice fucks up your sequencing, because it asks you to play it before all your Hymn/Removal etc and it's not Modern UR Phoenix where you can flashback your looting / lavadart etc to remove all the counters off it if you topdeck it mid/lategame. I know it's easy to have a mental shortcut to group all these together but they are really not the same

Whale has similar issues to JVP, having <4 toughness

No idea what Thin Lizzy is supposed to be (Lizzy = Lizard = Pteramander?)


I tried Gargoyle and I was *incredibly* underwhelmed. My personal opinion? Straight garbage. I think of it was any good, in any sort of blue deck, it would be seeing play.
If you splash other colours it's mostly worse than Goyf/SFM/Arcanist. There are a few mono blue Delver 5-0s, admittedly without gargoyle, and they all seem to have a 2-2 split of Whale/Stormwing.
Maybe whale isn't so bad, but they're all playing 3-4 Gut Shots as a Stormwing enabler which seems loose. Gargoyle would be much worse in these monoU decks too, because they don't have Hymn/Thoughtseize/Actual Removal spells

[Fox]

Thin Lizzy is indeed Pter[rible]mander. This is a cluster of creatures which die to Pyroblast while also requiring extra work. Ignoring the inherent weakness to Snapcaster/REB, these are all cards you can‘t afford to topdeck from behind - they don‘t just keep you from regaining tempo, they actively put that tempo further out of reach.

The easiest example is the dies to Goyf test: you‘re dying to Goyf -> this creature won‘t stop the fact that you‘re dying to Goyf -> even if you manage to dump in extra work these creatures need, you‘re still dying to Goyf. I lump all these creatures into the TITI category b/c that‘s the only one that can actually brick a Goyf (if you make it to magical christmasland). Now even if you somehow passed the Goyf test, you‘re still playing sorcery speed “I can‘t win with this b/c it‘s actually just a 3/3 elk“ [Oko is the most widely-played wincon in the format].

This block of creatures sounds cool and edgy, but the assessments are out of touch with the realities of legacy. Playing the TITI family of creatures is a starts-from-behind penalty, in a format where that is increasingly hard to get away with.
—
While JVP is close in many ways, the card is unconventional whereas the TITI types are heavily conventional. Unconventionally different can find successful homes. Conventionally worse cards disappear once people tire of their newness and the accompanying high loss rates. While JVP favors combo-control shells, and Shadow is part of that family, he is better strategically suited to Dreadnought and UB Reanimator [higher incidence of unconventional interactions].

[kombatkiwi]

some more results with gargoyle

4 Shadow
4 Gargoyle
4 Wraith
2 Strix

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Seize
4 Hymn
1 Snuff
1 Dismember
1 Push
1 FoN

4 Wasteland
4 Grave
2 Sea
8 Blue Fetches

SB
2 Cling
2 Eliminate
2 Ratchet
2 Contract/Bargain
2 Engineer
2 Liliana
1 Surgical
1 Sanctuary
1 FoN

1-2 vs Green Post
2-0 vs Burn
1-2 vs Bant Blade

0-2 vs RUG Delver
2-0 vs Turbo Depths
2-1 vs Stryfo Yorion (4C Punishing Dack)

1-2 vs RG Lands
2-0 vs Pokimoki RUG (the No-Delver Uro Stifle deck)
2-1 vs Jund Hogaak

I like strix and eliminate
Unfortunately this deck is very weak to Maze of Ith which contributed significantly to the losses vs lands / post

edit: now a 3-0
2-0 vs Gyruda Bomberman
2-1 vs Green Post
2-0 vs Eldrazi Aggro

edit:
2-1 vs Chalice Post
1-2 vs BW Eldrazi
2-0 vs RUG Delver

[Secretly.A.Bee]

@kombatkiwi have you considered playing Thieves' Guild Enforcer in place of Delver? It helps turn on gargoyle and has some fairly interesting uses like Thoughtseize > they brainstorm and you let it and then resolve Thoughtseize if no counter > cast TGE to mill their assumingly most needed cards that they hid from TS with their BS. Can also randomly give you a surgical or Reanimate target. Can change board states when "turned on" as a flashed in blocker.

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[Fox]

@kombatkiwi have you considered playing Thieves' Guild Enforcer in place of Delver? It helps turn on gargoyle and has some fairly interesting uses like Thoughtseize > they brainstorm and you let it and then resolve Thoughtseize if no counter > cast TGE to mill their assumingly most needed cards that they hid from TS with their BS. Can also randomly give you a surgical or Reanimate target. Can change board states when "turned on" as a flashed in blocker.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

Slower deck, the payoff for Thieves’ Guild Enforcer [TGE] would be to spam Drown in the Loch; which is otherwise hard to justify vs Chalice and Vial decks (harder to fill their yard). The issue with such a deck is the 1-mana playable problem (Vantress and Bitterblossom and Drown have 2cmc covered). Shadow is the lower yield creature alongside TGE as compared to Delver, as it is better able to keep you in the realm of Daze/Wasteland/Thoughtseize.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Slower deck, the payoff for Thieves’ Guild Enforcer [TGE] would be to spam Drown in the Loch; which is otherwise hard to justify vs Chalice and Vial decks (harder to fill their yard). The issue with such a deck is the 1-mana playable problem (Vantress and Bitterblossom and Drown have 2cmc covered). Shadow is the lower yield creature alongside TGE as compared to Delver, as it is better able to keep you in the realm of Daze/Wasteland/Thoughtseize.Respectfully, I'm more on board with the whole "Delver is less good" than I am the "run a threat out" sort of fellow when it comes to Dimir Shadow, especially if I were running them in a Gargoyle build. For the record, I'm not, and I play delver, but I would replace it if I found something suitable. However, considering Gargoyle and the synergy it holds with Hymn to Tourach, I think I like having that much to do in black early game. I think a 3/2 Deathtouch end of opponent's turn can really change the math mid game. Worth testing if you are already playing gargoyle, I think.

It has obvious downsides in that it gives SCM and Arcanist targets, turns on their delve or Hogaak, LFTL, and probably many other things. It's a circumstantial effect, but I think it could be leveraged into a useful tool as far as these in-deck synergies are concerned.

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[kombatkiwi]

I don't think enabling your opponent's gy synergies is a huge issue otherwise I wouldn't be playing Gargoyle.

The main problem with TGE in the context of "I don't think delver is very good, what else can I play instead" is that TGE is just another 1drop with 3 power, so if the ability to attack for 3 is a large justification for playing the card then you have to explain why you aren't just playing Delver in the first place.

If you want to play TGE as a 4x then you can play it in a deck with a threat base of like 4x Delver 4x TGE 4x Gargoyle (Or if you're really high on the idea of being this super lean every-spell-costs-1-mana deck then 4x TGE 4x Delver 4x Shadow) but then you are running into the problem of "my 1-drop aggro delver deck has no bolts in it", and if you add red then you should probably cut some creature to add Arcanist.

If the ability to attack for 3 is not a large part of the justification for playing the card (so it's mostly in the deck as a flash removalspell that has the auxiliary upside of also attacking) then you have to compare it to Baleful Strix, and I guess there are some pros/cons either way:

TGE
- Only 1 mana
- Flash
- Better at attacking
- Can enable gargoyle

Strix
- Pitches to force
- Blocks flyers
- 2-for-1

Strix being a 2-for-1 is a pretty big deal and I don't highly value the angle of having an aggressive 1drop but I could try 1 or 2 TGE instead of the strix.

PS I just re-read the card and realised that not only the +2+1 but also the deathtouch is contingent on the opponent having threshold, this is a pretty big drawback I think

[Fox]

Respectfully, I'm more on board with the whole "Delver is less good" than I am the "run a threat out" sort of fellow when it comes to Dimir Shadow, especially if I were running them in a Gargoyle build. For the record, I'm not, and I play delver, but I would replace it if I found something suitable. However, considering Gargoyle and the synergy it holds with Hymn to Tourach, I think I like having that much to do in black early game. I think a 3/2 Deathtouch end of opponent's turn can really change the math mid game. Worth testing if you are already playing gargoyle, I think.
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The 2-drop interaction you should care about more is Drown in the Loch, rather than making building decisions based on being good for TITI 2.0. Note the trend of moving up cmcs heavily undermines the ability to leverage Daze/Wasteland (you really need to get on the table reliably on turn 1 with 8x 1-drop threats to unite this Waste/Daze plan with 2-drops). Wanting Delver, TGE, and Vantress doesn’t leave a lot of room for Shadows and you still have to figure out why Vantress is being played over a rogue factory (Bitterblossom triggers TGE) which might allow continued Shadow use.

[Mr. Safety]

If I played TGE I would want at least 2-3 maindeck Hymn to Tourach. I'm not sure there's a way to jam that in there and still keep a high enough blue count to feed 6 forces. Call me crazy, but I'm still on Delver. Everything I listen to or read tells me it's the best blue creature for a tempo deck, and it's not even close.

[kombatkiwi]

same list
2-0 vs BR Reanimator
2-0 vs RUG Reclaimer (maybe a brew idk)
1-2 vs RUG Delver
Still a winning record but seems impossible to get the RUG delver matchup much better than 50/50 (although that is mostly true for the entire format at this point)

[Mr. Safety]

Pretty cool list here that just won a Legacy challenge. It's playing green for Decay, Oko, and a spicy 2-of Jolrael, Mwonvuli Recluse maindeck. It seems to be a way to generate a wider board presence, which is something Shadow has always struggled to do. Bitterblossom still in the sideboard, but only 1 of them. Oko obviously adds a lot of punch to the deck.

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=27491&f=LE

Another list, using Scourge of the Skyclaves:

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=27486&d=418484&f=LE

[median]

Is this archetype still competitive? Should I build it over RUG Delver?

[Fox]

Is this archetype still competitive? Should I build it over RUG Delver?

Where are you going to play is the most important question. Mtgo leagues over-represent combo which gives Shadow a winrate boost. If you're talking about paper and buying duals, just be aware that the moment Oko gets banned RUG Delver goes back to being irrelevant.

[median]

Thanks,
That helps a lot.

[AngryTroll]

I've been playing with this deck and really enjoy it. I want to make the red splash work to make the Delvers stronger and to get access to Pyroblast in the board. How does this list look? I will add the disclaimer that I rarely get to play Legacy in person so this list is a result of reading this thread, watching Legacy streams, goldfishing, and playing against my other legacy decks.


4 Delver of Secrets
4 Death's Shadow
2 Gurmag Angler

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Thoughtseize
2 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Snuff Out

2 Price of Progress
2 Winter Orb

4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Watery Grave
1 Underground Sea
1 Steam Vents
1 Volcanic Island
1 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Wasteland

// Sideboard
3 Divert
1 Spell Pierce
3 Pyroblast
2 Fatal Push
2 Fire Covenant
4 Leyline of the Void


Some thoughts on the list:
No Street Wraith: I wanted to find a card that was more impactful than the Wraiths but still advanced our game plan and did not become blanks in the late game. It is possible that we need some additional cantrips to supplement the Brainstorms and Ponders.

1 Cephalid Coliseum: This competes with a third Watery Grave or a second Underground Sea. Especially in a three-color version of the deck I've been watching for color problems but the Colliseum is very synergistic with the deck and can be a very strong topdeck.

2 Winter Orb: especially with the Spell Pierces main I wanted a card to help against fair decks like Maverick, Death and Taxes, and Hymn to Tourach-based decks. The Orb makes our Dazes and Spell Pierces stronger and the threat of it encourages our opponent to play extra lands, which works well with...

2 Price of Progress (PoP): A finisher by itself, a pseudo-Fling or Temur Battle Rage with Death's Shadow, synergistic with Daze, Spell Pierce, Winter Orb, and also synergistic with Delver and Lightning Bolt. PoP does have some anti-synergy with Wasteland and is bad in the same matchups that Wasteland is bad, but it seems like it is worth the risk right now.

Ideally (and I think pretty realistically) PoP will either do 4 to both players or do 4 to us and 6 to the opponent. The card's ceiling is very high, but against some decks it will be very poor and it will sometimes be a dead draw (like a lategame Wraith or Thoughtseize). Note that you can sometimes force a draw if PoP resolves, which is a non-negligible line of play. This card was probably close to unplayable a few weeks ago with all of the basics and snow-covered basics in the format but I expect it to be pretty strong now.

I much prefer Dismember to Snuff Out but I think that with Winter Orb in the main deck Snuff Out gets the slots.

Fire Covenant is strong enough that I've played it in Jund. It's custom-made for this deck.

I would expect both Winter Orb and Price of Progress to steal games as non-standard maindeck cards. I haven't seen Price of Progress suggested before and I rarely see Winter Orb either. Are these good ideas, or cards that have already been tested and dismissed?

[Mr. Safety]

I've been playing with this deck and really enjoy it. I want to make the red splash work to make the Delvers stronger and to get access to Pyroblast in the board. How does this list look? I will add the disclaimer that I rarely get to play Legacy in person so this list is a result of reading this thread, watching Legacy streams, goldfishing, and playing against my other legacy decks.


4 Delver of Secrets
4 Death's Shadow
2 Gurmag Angler

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Thoughtseize
2 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Snuff Out

2 Price of Progress
2 Winter Orb

4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Watery Grave
1 Underground Sea
1 Steam Vents
1 Volcanic Island
1 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Wasteland

// Sideboard
3 Divert
1 Spell Pierce
3 Pyroblast
2 Fatal Push
2 Fire Covenant
4 Leyline of the Void


Some thoughts on the list:
No Street Wraith: I wanted to find a card that was more impactful than the Wraiths but still advanced our game plan and did not become blanks in the late game. It is possible that we need some additional cantrips to supplement the Brainstorms and Ponders.

1 Cephalid Coliseum: This competes with a third Watery Grave or a second Underground Sea. Especially in a three-color version of the deck I've been watching for color problems but the Colliseum is very synergistic with the deck and can be a very strong topdeck.

2 Winter Orb: especially with the Spell Pierces main I wanted a card to help against fair decks like Maverick, Death and Taxes, and Hymn to Tourach-based decks. The Orb makes our Dazes and Spell Pierces stronger and the threat of it encourages our opponent to play extra lands, which works well with...

2 Price of Progress (PoP): A finisher by itself, a pseudo-Fling or Temur Battle Rage with Death's Shadow, synergistic with Daze, Spell Pierce, Winter Orb, and also synergistic with Delver and Lightning Bolt. PoP does have some anti-synergy with Wasteland and is bad in the same matchups that Wasteland is bad, but it seems like it is worth the risk right now.

Ideally (and I think pretty realistically) PoP will either do 4 to both players or do 4 to us and 6 to the opponent. The card's ceiling is very high, but against some decks it will be very poor and it will sometimes be a dead draw (like a lategame Wraith or Thoughtseize). Note that you can sometimes force a draw if PoP resolves, which is a non-negligible line of play. This card was probably close to unplayable a few weeks ago with all of the basics and snow-covered basics in the format but I expect it to be pretty strong now.

I much prefer Dismember to Snuff Out but I think that with Winter Orb in the main deck Snuff Out gets the slots.

Fire Covenant is strong enough that I've played it in Jund. It's custom-made for this deck.

I would expect both Winter Orb and Price of Progress to steal games as non-standard maindeck cards. I haven't seen Price of Progress suggested before and I rarely see Winter Orb either. Are these good ideas, or cards that have already been tested and dismissed?

So I'm not sold on the Price of Progress right now. I think the maindeck bolts and sideboard Pyroblasts are enough reason to splash red. One way to avoid the anti-synergy of PoP with Wasteland is to just play Flame Rift, but I think that generally it would be better to just play a Chain Lightning or 2.

Winter Orb has been seen in sideboards, and I think that's where it belongs for now. If the metagame shapes up to be weak to Orbs I could easily see 1-2 in the sideboard.

I think you are going to struggle against vial-based creature decks this way. The Bolts help, but vials negate all your countermagic...and they are playing Wastelands, too. Keeping red on the table will be hard, stranding your bolts. Not to mention your matchup against Moon Stompy becomes atrocious...I think basic Swamp is going to be necessary, probably worth going in your Cephalid Coliseum slot. Snuff Out against Moon stompy is essentially dead because you don't have any basic Swamps, too.

Fire Covenant seems ok...but at 3 mana you are asking a lot of your mana-base. Your velocity is lower without Street Wraiths so you're going to see on-average a few less cards in a game; that means you might not make it to the 3 mana you need to make that card work.

I think it's probably correct to replace the Spell Pierces with Force of Negations; combo decks are going to be prevalent in the new metagame, they always are in a shaken up meta. Shadow is a fantastic option in that environment, but don't take it too far and lose the percentage points you would have had with a standard approach.

EDIT: Brazen Borrower is likely the best tech against Moon Stompy/Chalice decks and Dark Depths (another combo deck that stands to be good in this new metagame.)

[kombatkiwi]

Maindeck pop is really bad in Delver unless you can reliably pivot to being a burn deck, which you can't really do with this list (compared to e.g. a UR delver list which would probably have multiple chain lightnings instead of cards like thoughtseize or snuff out)

This is by far the deckbuilding article I have linked people to more than any other and I still have to keep doing it:

https://articles.starcitygames.com/premium/thoughtseize-you/

A common pitfall that I see among newer deckbuilders is a draw towards B/R decks that feature both a lot of burn and a lot of Thoughtseize effects. This is natural because black and red are a likely pair according to Magic’s flavor and those are among the most iconic effects that each color has to offer.

However, the reality is that Thoughtseize is exactly what a burn deck does not want. The strength of burn is that it’s difficult for the opponent to interact with through ordinary means, so if you add Thoughtseize to the deck in the place of a card that would otherwise contribute to your game plan, you’re really just giving your opponent exactly what they want—a way to trade off cards against you.

In my experience, such decks are excellent at getting the opponent down to five life but are not the best at actually winning games.

Winter Orb is a really feast-or-famine card in the sense that some situations it's great and sometimes it either does little/nothing or it actually harms you more than the opponent.
You should realize that this kind of delver/daze/fow etc strategy that you are using yourself and recognize Orb can be good in is one of the most popular decks in legacy, and therefore a large number of your opponents will be also playing a deck that Orb doesn't help against. You probably don't want to play a card like this in your maindeck.

Cephalid Coliseum is a cute idea but I think it will just hurt you in the long run more by not being a dual land than the draw-3 ability will help.

[AngryTroll]

Thank you both for the feedback!

Winter Orb: Excellent point that other Delver decks can consider running this card in their sideboards; casting it is likely going to hurt us both about equally, making it a blank draw in those matchups. Against something like the old BUG Deliver lists those might be fine but the current UR lists are a different deck entirely. I'll move these to the sideboard to bring in against decks like Jund and Maverick. This also lets me replace Snuff Out with Dismember in the maindeck.

Price of Progress: Comparing this to Flame Rift makes both cards look pretty bad. Although it's still an interesting card I'll cut it for now but keep it in mind.

Lands: If I put two Brazen Borrower into the maindeck it makes even more sense to run a single basic Island. I admit, I forgot about the various 8-Moon type decks.

Thanks for the link to the great article about Thoughtseize, especially in the context of Price of Progress in this deck. I'm dabbling with Death's Shadow coming from a BUG Delver and Jund background, which are much more aggro-control decks rather than this more aggro-tempo archetype.

Spell Pierce versus Force of Negation: I'll admit, this is because I don't own any FoN and they're relatively expensive (I'm also short a Volcanic Island).

It's not very unique or exciting, but these changes (-2 Orb, -2 Price of Progress, -2 Snuff Out, -1 Cephalid Coliseum, +2 Brazen Borrower, +3 Dismember, +1 Preordain, +1 Island) do look like they will streamline the deck.

At that point is it worth running red for Bolts and Pyroblasts? Maybe I should be straight UB like the generally-accepted standard version of the deck, or splashing green (for which I do have a Tropical Island).

I'll rework the sideboard too to incorporate Winter Orb and pick some less expensive removal.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Brazen Borrower does heavy lifting in the matchups where it is good.

I'm partial to the green splash for Berserk, but not positive the splash continues to be worth it with Oko banned.

[Mr. Safety]

Spell Pierce versus Force of Negation: I'll admit, this is because I don't own any FoN and they're relatively expensive

Spell Pierce is probably fine for now. Being a Thoughtseize + Force of Will deck does a lot against combo, and without worrying about Oko in the format you don't have to have the extra Forces to stay on tempo. In the Oko era you would have to make sure to get on-board yourself, using all of your mana, and still have a Force up for Oko. Long story short: I don't know how many maindeck Forces are correct anymore. It was standard to play 6-7 in the Oko/Arcanist era, but I'm not sure it's correct anymore (despite me already saying otherwise.) Regardless, plan to pick up some Force of Negations for tournament play if you are going to do paper events in the future.


It's not very unique or exciting, but these changes (-2 Orb, -2 Price of Progress, -2 Snuff Out, -1 Cephalid Coliseum, +2 Brazen Borrower, +3 Dismember, +1 Preordain, +1 Island) do look like they will streamline the deck.

We are just going on previous knowledge of what worked; I don't think it's wrong to experiment or put your own spin on a deck based on playstyle or metagame. This forum is so you know what others have done, whether it worked or not, and how to move forward. Truthfully, I'm always struggling on how to splash red in this deck because I love Lightning Bolt, Pyroblast and Abrade are awesome sideboard cards, and it naturally feels like it serves the aggressive plan. It doesn't always pan out that way, but that doesn't mean that the fundamental approach is wrong. Timing is everything.


At that point is it worth running red for Bolts and Pyroblasts? Maybe I should be straight UB like the generally-accepted standard version of the deck, or splashing green (for which I do have a Tropical Island).

You can always make an argument for a red splash to fight blue mirrors. In the Top-Miracles era red was splashed *only* for Pyroblast and Red Elemental Blast, because it was so important to fight the mirrors. What makes the decision sticky is Thoughtseize, which does so much heavy lifting for the deck that it can be possible to avoid the mana-base instability. Thoughtseize isn't a perfect answer for anything in the format, but it's useful against more decks than Pyroblast.


I'll rework the sideboard too to incorporate Winter Orb and pick some less expensive removal.

The card you're looking for is Plague Engineer; you can play it under Thalia and it does a ton of work against D&T, Elves, Goblins, and a slew of other decks as well. It's easier to cast because it only needs 2B, so that's why it's better than Fire Covenant. The best removals are Fatal Push, Snuff Out, Dismember, Plague Engineer, Toxic Deluge, Drown in the Loch, and Liliana's Triumph.

In general, you want complete control over your life total. Cards that are conditionally awesome (like Price of Progress) open you up to variance. Street Wraith does the same job but instead of being a conditional removal it's an unconditional card draw, every time. If you're looking for cool tricks the aforementioned Berserk is a good one, but also Apostle's Blessing is a great option. I've always wanted to mess around with a singleton Tainted Strike as a pseudo-Berserk in black, but it doesn't provide trample and if you don't have a 10/10 unblocked Shadow it literally does nothing (a 9/9 Shadow outclasses most threats already, you don't need infect to shrink opponent's chump blockers.)

I've also messed around with Dark Confidant, a card that on it's surface looks tailor-made for Shadow decks. It doesn't pan out that way simply because again, you don't have control over your top-decks unless you have Ponder/Brainstorm, and if you have Ponder/Brainstorm you should be digging into ways to win already. Confidant could be a sideboard card if we ever decide to board out Force of Wills, but even then it might do too much damage, or too little, to make it worth playing with Shadow. Another pet card of mine is Bitterblossom, something I'm always trying to shoe-horn into my decks. In general it's a very powerful card against certain matchups that could see some play again.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I'm thinking of trying a list with stifles and 'Noughts. Stifle isn't what a lot of people like, and especially in Thoughtseize lists, but I often choose cards I like over honed lists unless it's for a large competitive event. Has anyone considered this before?

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[Fox]

I'm thinking of trying a list with stifles and 'Noughts. Stifle isn't what a lot of people like, and especially in Thoughtseize lists, but I often choose cards I like over honed lists unless it's for a large competitive event. Has anyone considered this before?
Not enough room to run Shadow and Dreadnought. The card that unites them does not currently exist (land or 2-3cmc not-creature effect that says for every life gained by you is life lost by opponent), to be combined with Orzhov Charm and Arguel's Blood Fast. This is not a viable mash-up at this time.

There is no Dreadstill or Stiflenought list in UB that can post a higher winrate than UBw Landstill.

[Mr. Safety]

I'm thinking of trying a list with stifles and 'Noughts. Stifle isn't what a lot of people like, and especially in Thoughtseize lists, but I often choose cards I like over honed lists unless it's for a large competitive event. Has anyone considered this before?

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I tried it for a little while, back before covid derailed my local legacy scene. It was certainly fun, but as Fox eludes, it's hard to get everything in there. I ended up trying several different routes: Dark Confidant, cutting Delver, cutting Daze, etc. It got derailed into an Arclight Phoenix/Shadow discussion for a little bit at the end, too. This is a link to the theory-crafting/discussion:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?33178-Death-Nought

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Hey thanks for sharing your experiences. I was going to replace Gurmag with Noughts (and not play the full set, likely 2x) as support, either for the early ultimatum off stifle or to upgrade to a trampler from just a big fat vanilla guy. I don't want it to dominate the build, just to slide in as a slight spin-off.

I like Stifle as a tempo play in Delver even without a secondary use; it is because I am old and when Scourge came out I liked the gotcha aspect (it also won me a match when I played UG madness vs. a fully powered worldgorger vintage list in an event back when mana burn was a thing, which has admittedly solidified my love of the card even with all evidence to it being subpar).

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[Fox]

The issue is that making StifleNoughts isn't really a gameplan. You're just reinforcing a primary weakness of Shadow to Chalice, while Dreadnought tech [which you lack dedication to support] ignores Chalice.

Shadow's mana puts you in a terrible spot b/c the single best card UB has vs Chalice is Karn (that you can't cast this reliably), which can then let you wish for a SB Dreadnought. The deficits you're trying to cover are best approached by being BUG Shadow with around 2 Berserk, 2 Library, and 2 Trophy (you're no longer playing Street Wraith).

[Secretly.A.Bee]

The issue is that making StifleNoughts isn't really a gameplan. You're just reinforcing a primary weakness of Shadow to Chalice, while Dreadnought tech [which you lack dedication to support] ignores Chalice.

Shadow's mana puts you in a terrible spot b/c the single best card UB has vs Chalice is Karn (that you can't cast this reliably), which can then let you wish for a SB Dreadnought. The deficits you're trying to cover are best approached by being BUG Shadow with around 2 Berserk, 2 Library, and 2 Trophy (you're no longer playing Street Wraith).Right, I agree it isn't a game plan, it is just a deviated list for the sake of a favored strategy, not a better strategy. It seems to me that bug is similarly flawed as it also deviates in a fashion and opens the plan up to different issues such as color denial and a less stable mana base in general. I get that berserk may be better, but isn't delver, and DSD in particular just a bit weak to Chalice in general and the concensus just that you counter the chalice or lose to a fast clock (ignoring the luck draw of Decay)? Thanks for your response! I'm enjoying talking about magic again now that the bans have happened!

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[Fox]

The difference is that BUG Shadow has a very methodical approach to Counterbalance decks. You turn the Stifle and Wastlands onto exposing Tundra to board, and then you murder 2 basic Plains with Trophy....and then it gets worse for them, as up to two otherwise unplayable Needle can come in from the SB....and now your opponent can get into a ton of trouble if they fail to fight over aggro-Needle on maybe Vista/Tarn/Strand.

Keep that wheel turning as you add 2 Decay to SB, meeting up with maindeck Cling vs Sevinne's. Youre already bad against DnT, and they [Counterbalance] play Mentor - it's time for 2-3 Dread of Night again. Make them trade blue cards for anything but your blue cards, choose what doesn't get to resolve, and they will eventually die to whatever bereft of white mana.

This is where most shadow lists fail. They can't attack basic Plains, so they can't ever dictate the direction of a game. They just trade their dudes [only wincon] into stacks of white cards and Snapcasters, and then find themselves up against a deck with more blue cards.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

That is really solid strategy, I didn't think of it from this perspective. Thanks for clearing that up for me. You have saved me a few hundred in purchases lol. I'm back to the drawing board for my "fun" blue list.

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[kombatkiwi]

That is theorycrafting way too far up the ass, "colourscrew opp off white" is just not sensible. In an ideal world it might sound nice (just like surgicaling all of RUG tropicals or whatever).

The idea that you could reliably trophy 2 plains is already nonsense (2? copies of trophy vs how many plans + fetchlands your opp has, also the act of casting the first trophy on a plains assuming your opp has a 2nd one is just spending 2 mana and a card to do absolutely nothing) but consider that the umbrella of "blue plow deck" right now still includes Uro decks with Abundant Growth / Prism / Carpet. Trying to cut the opp off casting their white cards is not a winning gameplan.


There is no Dreadstill or Stiflenought list in UB that can post a higher winrate than UBw Landstill.
I still basically agree with this because dreadnought is basically a huge clunker in present-day (stifle as a card on its own merits is maybe _okay_ right now), so it needs a shell with a lot of support for it for it to be even remotely playable, and not just "I want to play stifle in my Ux delver deck oh I guess I get to play a 1 mana 12/12 too now yay"

[FTW]

That is theorycrafting way too far up the ass, "colourscrew opp off white" is just not sensible. In an ideal world it might sound nice (just like surgicaling all of RUG tropicals or whatever).

Fox is quite an expert in UWx control so he's probably not wrong here in seeing how UW loses that matchup.

Normally UW is heavily favored because Snap-Plow + Terminus is way more answers than Shadow has threats, and UW can happily grind out the counter war and card advantage vs Shadow. Shadow will win some out of variance, but overall it'll be really hard to stick a win condition and get there. You're fighting an uphill battle. The way UW loses is if they can't cast their white cards, then they lose their removal and some win conditions and Shadow's threats can safely get through for the kill.

Given that UW is very slow with few win conditions, you're playing a long grindy game and it may actually be feasible to slow roll and take every white source off the board first than to go balls-out Shadow and walk into a loss. Some builds will only have 2 Plains + 1 Tundra + 1 Karakas, they will normally play to have at least 2 white sources in play (if both Plains are out to dodge Wasteland then Trophy is strong), while they probably have 4 Flooded Strand to hit with Pithing Needle. Their manabase is blue-heavy and built to beat Wasteland/Blood Moon/B2B but not destruction of basics. It won't work in every game, but it may be a more winning strategy than just playing out Shadows into removal.

But yeah, throwing Dreadnought in as a random card here seems bad. Stiflenought is very marginal these days unless you can support it with a full plan (including Scroll of Fate). It's not good enough to splash Dreadnought and get 3-for-1d by Snapcaster into Plow.

[Mr. Safety]

On a semi-related note, discussing good cards against the blue control/midrange decks, brings me back around to a pet card: Bitterblossom. I always liked the way it really pressured the slower blue decks and its decent against Marit Lage by making perpetual blockers.

[kombatkiwi]

it may actually be feasible to slow roll and take every white source off the board first than to go balls-out Shadow and walk into a loss... It won't work in every game, but it may be a more winning strategy than just playing out Shadows into removal.

Yeah but you're presenting this as a false dilemma where the 2 choices are A) Try to colourscrew opp off white or B) Play postboard games vs control as the Game 1 deck with no SB whatsoever

In reality there are other choices available (e.e grind better with card advantage options like hymn / planeswalkers / infernal contract etc). Mr Safetys Bitterblossom idea is also in that space but I don't like that card because its too blank in situations where you are already successfully damaging yourself, weak vs plague engineer etc

[FTW]

Yeah but you're presenting this as a false dilemma where the 2 choices are A) Try to colourscrew opp off white or B) Play postboard games vs control as the Game 1 deck with no SB whatsoever

The argument was the opposite: you make more cards in the SB live because you can board in slots for other matchups like Pithing Needle (on Strand/Vista) on top of the other anti-control cards you'd bring in, and that gives you more overall axes to pressure them. Bring in Hymns too, of course. Attack their hand and attack their land, instead of just attacking their hand (which they can dodge with Snapcasters and Brainstorms).

Infernal Contract is interesting.

[Mr. Safety]

Yeah but you're presenting this as a false dilemma where the 2 choices are A) Try to colourscrew opp off white or B) Play postboard games vs control as the Game 1 deck with no SB whatsoever

In reality there are other choices available (e.e grind better with card advantage options like hymn / planeswalkers / infernal contract etc). Mr Safetys Bitterblossom idea is also in that space but I don't like that card because its too blank in situations where you are already successfully damaging yourself, weak vs plague engineer etc

I agree with your assessment of Bitterblossom. I somehow keep forgetting that Hymn to Tourach is a card...Veil of Summer has really warped how I view discard. Thoughtseize is at least the same mana-cost as Veil of Summer, but getting blown out playing a Hymn into a Veil is a real feel-bad. Liliana the Last Hope seems really good out of the board, as does Narset, Parter of Veils.

[kombatkiwi]

New Idea

4 Watery Grave
2 Underground Sea
8 Fetchlands
4 Wasteland

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Death's Shadow
4 Dark Confidant
4 Street Wraith

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Thoughtseize

2 Cling to Dust
1 Force of Negation
3 Removal Spells

- I might be off-base here but I think the DHA furore was a sign that maybe Bob was/is a bit underrated
- Cling gives you a way to gain life against more aggressive UR variants as well as control Uros and balance the increased lifeloss from 4x confidant
- Maindeck Cling gives you a way to use your own graveyard because you probably don't want to ding yourself off Bob for 6+ with your own Angler/Whale
- Mix of removal spells used to be 1x Dismember / Push / Snuff but for example Snuff doesn't kill Strix which is a bit more popular now or kill your own Bob and it flips for 4 damage off Bob so this can be tweaked a bit
- Not enthusiastic about Delverless builds with Hymns main because Uro/Veil still seem too popular
- No idea if 4x Bob 4x Wraith is insanity but at least I want to try it

[FTW]

4 Bob + 4 Wraith + 5 Force is insanity.

There's no real payoff for Wraith without Reanimate or Angler, so it's just a bad Gitaxian Probe that doesn't play well with Bob. Probe would be amazing there. Maybe it's worth cutting Wraith. That frees up 7 slots.

2 Dismember? Unlike Snuff Out, it plays better with Bob, it can hit black creatures, and you have more control over the lifeloss. There's not much Snuff kills that Dismember doesn't (and you have maindeck Cling for Uro).

Other slots could include 2 Cabal Therapy (add to discard plan and give you an out to Bob), maybe 1-2 Reanimate, 1 Push, maybe a Borrower.

[Mr. Safety]

Ten slots at 5 mana is not good. I lost multiple games playing Bobs + Forces due to blind flips, and I wasn't even playing Street Wraiths. Once you decide to push for card advantage with Dark Confidant instead of velocity with Street Wraith you really need to evaluate your mana curve. Even Daze becomes suspect when you're drawing extra lands but can't play them out. If you want Dark Confidant I think you need to make a couple of fundamental changes: cut the street wraiths, take a hard look at your mana curve, and look into playing at least 1-2 Cling to Dust in your maindeck to help manage your life total.

[Reeplcheep]

Alternatives to cutting wraith:

Glint-Sleeve Siphoner draws cards much slower but lets you play wraiths and Gurmag angler. You can also draw many more cards before you die. The deck also sorely lacks evasion without delver.

Tasigur, the golden fang you are already very weak against plow (and thus karakas) decks. Extra grind power, speed, and dodges decay.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I once reanimated my opponent's Bob at FNM. Flipped Gurmag at 7 life. I won't be playing Bob, it lacks the controlled lifeloss this deck seems to demand.

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[FTW]

Without another source of energy, Siphoner needs to survive an attack and untap a 2nd time to draw a card, which is significantly slower than Bob. Then you need 2 more attacks to draw a 2nd time the following turn. The evasion is nice, but it's really awful on tempo before you see much payoff.

Is 2 Ethereal Forager better than playing Tasigur?

[Reeplcheep]

Mindblade Render is almost exactly the same as DHA... but it needs to connect. Gets pseudo haste in multiples.

[Fox]

Without another source of energy, Siphoner needs to survive an attack and untap a 2nd time to draw a card, which is significantly slower than Bob. Then you need 2 more attacks to draw a 2nd time the following turn. The evasion is nice, but it's really awful on tempo before you see much payoff.

Is 2 Ethereal Forager better than playing Tasigur?

Failwhale is bad....like to the point that you should delve 3-4 lands on the first one to begin to have a chance to untap with it. Tasigur is technically better since the value is unaffected by summoning sickness at 5 mana [which Shadow can't really reach]. Take the win against Goyf with Gurmag and use the rest of the yard for Cling.

[Mr. Safety]

I don't think even Tasigur is worth playing. I think the only alternative threat we could consider is Scourge of the Skyclaves, but I haven't seen it do a whole lot since it was printed.

I think the grindy cards you want out of the sideboard are Liliana, the Last Hope, Narset, Parter of Veils, Bitterblossom, and even Search for Azcanta. The aforementioned Infernal Contract is also pretty decent. I'd love to try Search for Azcanta, because it actually *adds* a land to the deck. It isn't ideal with the high activation cost, but it could possibly be good. I'm also eyeballing Collective Brutality again because it should have some relevance against the threats being played again.

Here's my sideboard that I think will be a good general approach:

1x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Narset, Parter of Veils
2x Plague Engineer
2x Hymn to Tourach
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Stubborn Denial
2x Bitterblossom


I play 2x Brazen Borrower maindeck, so that's why it isn't in the sideboard.

[FTW]

The problem with Scourge is it looks at both players, so it doesn't fit as well into the Shadow plan if you haven't been able to turn a Shadow or Delver sideways yet. It's win-more. Scourge might work in Red Death, the RB Shadow deck with burn cards.

Lili, Narset and Brutality all look good out of the board.

Is Castle Locthwain unplayable in the SB? Maybe it's just a bad version of Azcanta. But it's uncounterable, dodges Decay, and gives mana right away. The decks you need it against probably don't run Wasteland, so it could be difficult for them to interact with this card.

[Mr. Safety]

Castle Locthwain is a good idea, one I hadn't picked up on yet. I was mostly looking for enchantments, which in general are problematic for most opponents in legacy outside of specifically Abrupt Decay. The life loss is attractive in Castle Locthwain, but if we are sandbagging cards in hand against mid-range opponents then it could possibly hurt too much. I suppose we could cut a Street Wraith post-board to squeeze in the extra land.

What I like about SfA is that it will always be doing something valuable; smoothing top decks, feeding gurmag/reanimate, and if it flips in a long game and we can activate it (Wasteland actually makes mana at this point) then it could really pressure mid-range opponents. Sylvan Library is the closest analogy, and SFA is definitely *not* Sylvan Library. I would like to avoid the green splash to keep mana solid.

[kombatkiwi]

Wrt to some of the discussion here:
- Glint Sleeve Siphoner smoked me in standard a bunch of times, but not being able to play it with 1+ energy ready to go from Aether Hub or Attune makes it much worse, and with no other energy source in the deck (Harnessed Lightning etc) you are only drawing an extra card once every 2 turns. If it was just 1B 2/1 Menace Ophidian that dinged you for 1 when you drew a card with it then I think it would probably be good or at least worth trying

Mindblade Render is ~almost~ that card. No evasion is a little bit disappointing as well as only having 1 power, but 3 toughness is nice vs e.g. Pfire and Plague Engineer. I think this is at least worth considering in the "Bob slot". Compared to Bob, not getting an extra card in your upkeep is slightly worse (because you can't e.g. play an extra removal spell before attacking), it does actually have to connect, and "draw a card" is worse than "bob flip into hand" because of Hullbreacher/Narset, but the lifeloss is more manageable.

Tasigur is too embarrassing vs Karakas and too hard to activate (like in the matchups where you want that activated ability you really don't want it coming attached to a thing that dies to plow)

Agree with FTW comment about scourge not making sense in UB (you need more turn 1 threats and/or burn spells)

Castle Lockthwain is an okay idea the problem is that spending effectively 4mana per turn is a lot for a delver deck. You also have to be a bit careful about whether the playstyle of the card makes sense with your overall gameplan (for example if you just want to throw all your threats into your opponent's defense and then use Castle to reload, it can be good, but if you want to play 1 Delver and then sit back with a full hand of daze/brainstorm/fow etc then it can cost too much life to use effectively. Overall I don't think the idea is that bad but compared to how the card sees play in e.g. Mono Black Aggro in Pioneer the opportunity cost of putting it in the deck is a lot higher (you can just play 4 maindeck in the normal manabase in Pioneer and it's cool, compared to considering it for a relatively-more-valuable sb slot). If it's going to be a card you are boarding in vs slow matchups to become more grindy then you have to start considering if it's a better use of slot than Infernal Contract or Lili Last Hope etc which I feel like it probably isn't. Azcanta has mainly similar problem (spending all your mana to draw 1 card per turn on turn 4+ is probably not the right way to beat grindy decks in legacy when you are playing delver)

Collective brutality is good if you expect to play against exactly Burn. Against other creature decks it's not good enough at killing things (sprite dragon goyf whale shadow etc all too large) you never want to risk escalating it into a daze, against DNT don't want to try to spend 2 mana for disfigure. Against combo/control don't want to spend 2 mana for bad duress. Maybe it's decent vs elves? Where -2-2 and discard sorcery is actually not bad for 2 mana. But yeah the utility offered is not particularly worthwhile I don't think

[Mr. Safety]

Yeah, Brutality's main use would be for burn/RUG Delver to provide a slight cushion for life total and to provide reach. Providing reach is likely the best mode of Brutality. You summarized it succinctly: it does several things, but none of them well. I don't mind the 2-mana Duress against combo decks at all, especially followed by a t1 Delver and having a Daze in hand. The other option is Hymn to Tourach, which is what I am currently playing in the sideboard, but Brutality seems like it could be a decent role-player. I like it against Moon Stompy, too, especially if you are dedicated to a basic Swamp (I am for sure, there is historically a lot of Moon Stompy in my local metagame, whenever that gets going again...) It kills a lot of Goblins and can swing races, which is what Brutality really needs to do. It's all theory-crafting honestly, it could still be too narrow for legacy.

[Mr. Safety]

Is anyone messing around with Stifle in their Shadow build? I am hesitant to include it because it tends to be good in newer metagames and then fade away as it gets closer to solved. I couldn't even get a full set into the deck, but I ended up trimming a Thoughtseize, Ponder, and the maindeck Brazen Borrower to get 3 copies in. None of those cuts make me feel very good, but especially the Ponder. The last time I played this in paper I absolutely loved the maindeck Borrower too, to the point that I even played 2 at one point.

TL, DR: are shadow players squeezing in Stifle, and if so, how?

[kombatkiwi]

Is anyone messing around with Stifle in their Shadow build? I am hesitant to include it because it tends to be good in newer metagames and then fade away as it gets closer to solved. I couldn't even get a full set into the deck, but I ended up trimming a Thoughtseize, Ponder, and the maindeck Brazen Borrower to get 3 copies in. None of those cuts make me feel very good, but especially the Ponder. The last time I played this in paper I absolutely loved the maindeck Borrower too, to the point that I even played 2 at one point.

TL, DR: are shadow players squeezing in Stifle, and if so, how?

Truehero has been playing a list like this (just off the top of my head, I can't remember the SB)

13 UB source
4 Wasteland

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
4 Stifle
2 Reanimate
2 Force of Negation
2 Snuff Out
2 Drown In the Loch

4 Wraith
4 Shadow
3 Angler

Idk if I would play exactly this list with 3 Angler or only 13 coloured sources but:
1. Everything I have said in the past about not liking Delver in this deck is still true
2. Usually the replacement for Delver has been some kind of Hymn card to help grind (plus JVP for the synergy or whatever)
3. Hymn is still pretty bad right now I think because Uro is still a popular card
4. So trying to be really lean and "go under" with stifle like this definitely has some appeal at the moment

[Mr. Safety]

Ehh, I don't like getting under people without pressure, it just seems to give people time to grind back into the game. I would play a different deck before I cut a land and Delvers.

[Captain Hammer]

Ehh, I don't like getting under people without pressure, it just seems to give people time to grind back into the game. I would play a different deck before I cut a land and Delvers.

Being able to go wide might help this deck against grindier matchups. As such, I wonder if Sedgemoor Witch could function in this deck. May test it as a 1-2 of in the spice slot.

[kombatkiwi]

Ehh, I don't like getting under people without pressure, it just seems to give people time to grind back into the game. I would play a different deck before I cut a land and Delvers.
Well on one hand if you don't have delver providing a clock then your opponent might have time to draw more lands to stabilize, but if you do have Stifle instead of Delver then that's hopefully the tool you're using to prevent your opp from getting those 3-4 land for Uro and turning the corner on you

Because of how this deck doesn't have reach from burnspells and how uro turns the corner so hard I would much rather try to assemble the plan of Stifle + Shadow or Stifle + Angler rather than Delver + Shadow or Delver + Angler, but you basically already know my position on this


Being able to go wide might help this deck against grindier matchups. As such, I wonder if Sedgemoor Witch could function in this deck. May test it as a 1-2 of in the spice slot.
It doesn't necessarily play well with the sequence of curving thoughtseize into it and the way the deck is built playing cards like Snuff Outs instead of Bolts also means that you can't be as flexible with making tokens as you might want to be. There also aren't as many card draw spells as like Miracles or Whitefaces Esper with Mentor and Predict / One Mind or UR decks with Pyromancer having a bunch of Preordains. If it wasn't for the meta consideration of Plague Engineer I would say this is just a worse TNN (and even then Engineer is pretty good against this because you just name Pest and it cleans up all the tokens)

[Mr. Safety]

Being able to go wide might help this deck against grindier matchups. As such, I wonder if Sedgemoor Witch could function in this deck. May test it as a 1-2 of in the spice slot.

How is this better than Bitterblossom? BB doesn't die to Bolt, is much harder to remove as an enchantment, costs 1 mana less, provides evasion, and requires no further investment.

[Mr. Safety]

Boshnroll just did a stream on a delver-less Shadow deck that focused on Stifle and interaction. It didn't fare very well, beating Goblins and Maverick pretty handily but losing hard to Moon Stompy (typical), RUG Delver (close games),and a 3rd deck I can't remember. I think the concept of less Delvers but more Gurmags/Reanimates (he played a 3rd Gurmag and 2 Reanimates) is fine in theory, but they don't pressure from t1 like Delver does. Stifle was very lackluster during the whole league. I just don't think it fits in decks other than RUG Delver, honestly. Stifle/Daze/Wasteland is awesome when you have Delver and Bolts, you disrupt and then kill them before they can recuperate. Shadow is similar in that regard with a big 4/4 or 5/5, but without Bolts in can sometimes struggle to get across the finish line. What I took away from the league was that maybe it's time to re-evaluate a red splash for Shadow decks, for Bolt alone. I don't think I would ever cut Delver from my list, no way.

EDIT: Found a recent list that looks pretty good. I'd make some small changes, but overall it looks pretty solid.

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=30131&d=435903&f=LE

[Clark Kant]

The new card Disapprove has a very cool interaction with Death’s Shadow and Kroxa...

You cast a Disapprove during your opponents end of turn step, draw a card, then next turn either cast a 1 mana Dreadnought or 2 mana Kroxa that you wont need to sac or swing (Stifle does this too) or swing with a 13/13 Death’s Shadow (that you have mana to cast a Temur’s Battle Rage or a haste card on).

This is where I ended up with the Vaka Nought list I was trying...

4 Stifle
4 Disapprove - Proxied up in paper all evening for testing

4 Death’s Shadow
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Street Wraith
3 Kroxa

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
4 Daze
1 Reanimate
1 Flusterstorm
1 Snuff Out
1 Drown In the Loch

4 Wasteland
14 Lands

[kombatkiwi]

It's a creative idea but it seems too inconsistent / fragile and I'm not convinced the mana will be good enough for Kroxa escape

I don't mind playing 1 Disapprove in a normal shadow deck as like a fun-of random cantrip that hates creatures abilities + a combat trick to make your shadow 13/13

I'm also interested in trying some number of Grief in Shadow because it's another decent thing to reanimate on turn 1 alongside Wraith but idk if there is space for it (like you would have to cut FoN probably)

[Clark Kant]

Its actually more consistent than any version of Death’s Shadow list Ive ever played. It has the perfect threat density and every card works beautifully together.

You never need to escape Kroxa (except if you somehow windup in the midgame against a control matchup). You either Disapprove end of your opponents turn and then cast both Kroxa and Dreadnought during your turn and have them both stick around because your opponent just expended all their resources to deal with the 13/13 Shadow that you just swung in with. Or you Stifle the sacrifice trigger on Kroxa cast so that you get the discard effect but your Kroxa doesnt get sacced.

Disapproving midcombat in response to an unblocked Death’s Shadow wins quite a few games (or atleast puts your opponent’s life total within one Kroxa trigger of death)

Vaka Nought 3.0

4 Stifle
4 Disapprove - proxied up in paper (using my Disallows to proxy for them) for testing

4 Death’s Shadow
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Street Wraith
3 Kroxa

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
4 Daze
1 Reanimate
1 Snuff Out
1 Flusterstorm/Force of Negation
1 Expedite/Temur’s Battle Rage
1 Spell Pierce/Drown In the Loch

4 Wasteland
14-15 Lands

A 63 card deck for now, but I find this is the easiest and fastest way to figure out which cards I dislike seeing and want to cut.

[Fox]

Among the worst things about Shadow decks is that they are horrible vs Chalice, don't trample, and [not that they were ever going to win such a matchup] they are colored such that they lose to Mother of Runes fog.

Shadow's problems with Plow are nearly the same as its problems vs any removal spell or Strix-type...but the colored, not-trampling, weakness to Chalice stuff is the real structural problem. Another structural problem is the lack of a playable black 1-drop since DRS was banned, but this hole opened up a little more play vs Chalice...which they obliterated by playing Street Wraith to ensure continued vulnerability to Chalice.

This is a set of problems Dreadnought doesn't have. Any time we mix Dreadnoughts and Shadow we should be looking to erase this deficit with Dreadnought tech. We don't add Dreadnoughts just to ramp up the existing vulnerability to Chalice.

Dreadnought tech takes mana, so you have to drop the red stuff and get mana you can trust. The CA engine isn't really there yet to justify this combination. Can't really go around spamming Confidant in a deck with Seize/Daze/Scroll/FoN/FoW - particularly in a fair meta. Arguel's Blood Fast is close to being the ideal card to bringing the two together, but we need to see a better card than Vito.

[kombatkiwi]

Its actually more consistent than any version of Death’s Shadow list Ive ever played. It has the perfect threat density and every card works beautifully together.

Cards in normal Death's Shadow don't need to work "together", they just work by themselves.

The idea that "oh you aren't actually supposed to escape Kroxa, you only hardcast it as a 2 mana 6/6 while using a stifle effect on it" is supposedly "more consistent" than just playing a UB tempo deck with Ponder and Gurmag Angler etc is insane.


Among the worst things about Shadow decks is that they are horrible vs Chalice, don't trample, and [not that they were ever going to win such a matchup] they are colored such that they lose to Mother of Runes fog.

Shadow's problems with Plow are nearly the same as its problems vs any removal spell or Strix-type...but the colored, not-trampling, weakness to Chalice stuff is the real structural problem. Another structural problem is the lack of a playable black 1-drop since DRS was banned, but this hole opened up a little more play vs Chalice...which they obliterated by playing Street Wraith to ensure continued vulnerability to Chalice.

This is a set of problems Dreadnought doesn't have. Any time we mix Dreadnoughts and Shadow we should be looking to erase this deficit with Dreadnought tech. We don't add Dreadnoughts just to ramp up the existing vulnerability to Chalice.

Stifle and Nought also suck ass vs Chalice and Plow. Sure a colourless 12/12 is nice vs Mother but that's also a plow matchup and it gets killed by Flickerwisp so do you even really gain anything. (If your point was that playing dreadnought and shadow in the same deck is a bad idea then I agree, but as usual it's impossible to figure out what you're even trying to say 90% of the time)

[Mr. Safety]

I've tried merging Shadow and Dreadnought, and my experience wasn't very promising. Once I just streamlined into a fairly stock UB Shadow list I was much happier with a lot more consistency. I couldn't imagine playing a 3-color Shadow/Nought deck, it seems too dependent on drawing the right cards in the right order. That's an issue with any setup of Dreadstill, but that particular deck deals with it better by including a powerful card draw engine with Standstill. Ub Shadow does it with pure velocity (BStorm/Ponder/Street Wraith.)

It seems, on the surface, that it's a great idea to have more big, cheap fatties. The problem is one requires a combo while the other naturally gets big by doing normal magic stuff. So the Swords to Plowshares deals with the Shadow and opponents just deal with the other half of the Dreadnought combo and the 12/12 doesn't materialize. With such a low threat density, most opponents can figure out how to play that game.

Kroxa seems to be the lynchpin of why you're doing this, which I think isn't necessarily bad, it's just another combo. Stifle + Dreadnought is good because it only costs 2 mana. Kroxa costing BRU and an extra card is little steep, especially because opponents can interact with you on the stack that way. I think it would be better to play Kroxa the way it was printed, by getting it back out of the graveyard and having synergies that support it. That's the Uro plan for decks that play Uro, and that's why it's good (IMHO.)

Just a few thoughts; I don't think Disapprove will be a breakout card. Do I think it's good, possibly enabling some cool stuff? Definitely. But I don't think it creates anything new and it doesn't make known strategies jump up a tier.

[Fox]

Stifle and Nought also suck ass vs Chalice and Plow. Sure a colourless 12/12 is nice vs Mother but that's also a plow matchup and it gets killed by Flickerwisp so do you even really gain anything. (If your point was that playing dreadnought and shadow in the same deck is a bad idea then I agree, but as usual it's impossible to figure out what you're even trying to say 90% of the time)

The point is that Dreadnought has enablers that let us sit back and laugh when opponents play Chalice. Your list doesn't have these tools; so you're re-investing into Shadow's greatest weakness...when the whole point of adding Noughts was supposed to be getting Shadow out of the hole they dug themselves into.

Adding trample and not-colored definitely helps Shadow, but it's not like adding Berserk wouldn't have also achieved the same-ish thing with less variance (plus Berserk is a kill spell that ramp down life). If you're actually adding Noughts to Shadow, you definitely don't need Battle Rage. The third color really shouldn't be there, but if it is, it should probably be white (see Orzhov Charm)

[idc1993]

Any thoughts on Murktide Regent?

https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/large/front/2/0/20c4aae1-7665-4df7-bd51-a1d95bf8a17d.jpg?1622577153

One extra mana for a beater that will always be at least as big as Gurmag's Angler (if not bigger) but with evasion and the potential to grow even more from additional delving.

Maybe as a 3rd Angler if not an outright replacement.

[Mr. Safety]

I'm not sure it's a replacement, Gurmag's biggest selling point is it 'really' only costs B to cast for a 5/5. Costing UU minimum is actually kinda tough for Shadow.

[Clark Kant]

I've tried merging Shadow and Dreadnought, and my experience wasn't very promising. Once I just streamlined into a fairly stock UB Shadow list I was much happier with a lot more consistency. I couldn't imagine playing a 3-color Shadow/Nought deck, it seems too dependent on drawing the right cards in the right order. That's an issue with any setup of Dreadstill, but that particular deck deals with it better by including a powerful card draw engine with Standstill. Ub Shadow does it with pure velocity (BStorm/Ponder/Street Wraith.)

I think Dress Down might change that equation considerably, since it cantrips, makes shadow into a 13/13, stops thassas oracle and has innumerable other uses (just as many as stifle), in addition to cheating in Dreadnought or Kroxa.

Kroxa also has utility beyond the combo as its decent rate to make your opponent discard a card and lose 3 life for 2 mana, and it has excellent utilty in grindy controllish matchups.

I am testing various iterations of Vaka Nought that all start either...

4 Deaths Shadow
4 Dreadnought
1-3 Kroxa
4 Stifle
4 Dress Down
+
Xerox Shell

Or...

4 Dreadnought
4 Uro
1-3 Hierarch/Tarmogoyf/Snapcaster/Subtlety/Brazen B
4 Stifle
4 Dress Down
1 Urza’s Saga
+
Xerox Shell

And every iteration has been extremely promising. Just waiting on MTGO so that I can test these decks outside my guantlet.

[Mr. Safety]

I think Dress Down might change that equation considerably, since it cantrips, makes shadow into a 13/13, stops thassas oracle and has innumerable other uses (just as many as stifle), in addition to cheating in Dreadnought or Kroxa.

I'm not sure I understand the ruling perfectly, but I think once Dress Down gets sacrificed at EOT Death's Shadow will still be vulnerable to it having -x/-x = to your live total. If your life total is above 12 once Dress Down leaves it will then go to the graveyard via state-based effect.

[FTW]

I'm not sure I understand the ruling perfectly, but I think once Dress Down gets sacrificed at EOT Death's Shadow will still be vulnerable to it having -x/-x = to your live total. If your life total is above 12 once Dress Down leaves it will then go to the graveyard via state-based effect.

If you're already below 12 you can attack with Shadow as a 13/13 without being at 0 life. No blockers? Flash in Dress Down for surprise 13 damage. If they have removal, you cantrip and trade 2-for-2.


Edit: I thought of something in these consistency debates. It occurs to me a newer player playing a stock tempo list could get very suboptimal results (compared to an experienced player) and may find better results with some high variance combo fatty strategy like Kroxa-Stifle or Uro-Stifle. An expert level player would do better with the more consistent build, but the other player may be unable to unlock those wins. Traditional Legacy Xerox wins come from gaining subtle mana utilization and card quality advantages. But lower level players will miss how to convert these advantages into wins or could be themselves making tempo errors, missing wins from the "better" decklists.

For the average player it's easier to find wins when you have some big dumb threat on the board. Newer players and players from other formats play Magic by uninteractively slamming big things on the board, turning sideways, and passing the turn. Those players may get more wins making 12/12s and 6/6s just because they have an easier time figuring out how to win with them. The trend in Standard and Limited has reinforced that playstyle. Those players will feel confident knowing how to win if they have some big scary Mythic in play, but may not see the wins in subtle interactive tempo play.

[Fox]

I don't think the problem facing new players is missing timing windows, so much as the tendency to jam relentlessly b/c the hand has something they can jam (but definitely should not jam).

There is very nearly a 1-to-1 correlation with doing something way too early, and immediately losing if that thing wasn't a 1-card combo. It's super hard to kill yourself by spamming cards like Uro or Hymn or CB or Goyf or Baleful Strix-types...So it's never going to be the missed tempo window that kills the inexperienced player, rather it is the situation where they have 2 mana with a Dreadnought and Stifle in hand where they always kill themselves by yolo-jamming.

On the more experienced side, builds like Shadow predictably railroad the experienced pilot into making bad plays (like playing 2x Shadow's vs Plow), b/c the deck can't do anything else. After a certain point, consistency-only cards put a hard cap on skill creating win %. I'd focus more on raising the ceiling problem Shadow has.

[Mr. Safety]

I don't think the problem facing new players is missing timing windows, so much as the tendency to jam relentlessly b/c the hand has something they can jam (but definitely should not jam).

There is very nearly a 1-to-1 correlation with doing something way too early, and immediately losing if that thing wasn't a 1-card combo. It's super hard to kill yourself by spamming cards like Uro or Hymn or CB or Goyf or Baleful Strix-types...So it's never going to be the missed tempo window that kills the inexperienced player, rather it is the situation where they have 2 mana with a Dreadnought and Stifle in hand where they always kill themselves by yolo-jamming.

On the more experienced side, builds like Shadow predictably railroad the experienced pilot into making bad plays (like playing 2x Shadow's vs Plow), b/c the deck can't do anything else. After a certain point, consistency-only cards put a hard cap on skill creating win %. I'd focus more on raising the ceiling problem Shadow has.

What do you think would solve the ceiling problem? I always thought, maybe naively, that Shadow's problem was the lack of trample or genuine card advantage. RUG Delver gets to stretch into cards like Uro without too much trouble, which solves their problem of only playing as a tempo deck. I'd be interested to hear what you think the actual specific ceiling problem of Shadow is, and how to get past it. I'm assuming what you mean by 'ceiling' is that the deck at it's best isn't as powerful as other options, or there is an inherent weakness against the metagame (which I assume to be Swords to Plowshares.)

[Fox]

The problem is the wincon, there's only one: playing into ETB dudes [SCM, Ice-Fang/Strix] and 1 mana removals in a Daze deck. The opponent only has one thing they need to disrupt: Shadow's combat step.

Shadow needs to break the pattern of "guess I lose b/c Daze is a dead draw and opponent got a PW...also I burned all my blue cards on not-blue spells [removals], so opponent's countermagic is unchallenged."

So you're waiting for a card that says Dreadnought and Shadow can be played together and simply resolving them into flipped Arguel's or Plow = gain 12, opponent lose 12 (this Vito effect is not on a competitive card yet). More direct damage to be had with Kaya 3cmc, which also kills Chalice. Get the wincon off the combat step.

[kombatkiwi]

What do you think would solve the ceiling problem? I always thought, maybe naively, that Shadow's problem was the lack of trample or genuine card advantage. RUG Delver gets to stretch into cards like Uro without too much trouble, which solves their problem of only playing as a tempo deck. I'd be interested to hear what you think the actual specific ceiling problem of Shadow is, and how to get past it. I'm assuming what you mean by 'ceiling' is that the deck at it's best isn't as powerful as other options, or there is an inherent weakness against the metagame (which I assume to be Swords to Plowshares.)

- You can't play aggro/tempo as well as UR because your removal spells don't double as burn/reach and you have discard spells in your deck

- You don't want to play a long game (at least in game 1, you can build a sb to do this in certain matchups) where you play your own card advantage sources because if you give your opponents time they will have a deck that can make better use of them having more mana mid/late and your discard becomes much worse if the opponent is topdecking

- Therefore the deck walks a pretty fine line in the sense that it has no lategame but it's trying to kill the opponent quickly while having a low threat count and no burn spells and gets heavily punished if it overextends into swords to plowshares

So because it operates on such thin margins if there is anything that slightly pushes a % in favour of the opp it can be enough to make a matchup bad and the deck not very well positioned
- Uro
- Skyclave Apparition
- Veil
-Strix
etc

So what is the upside to playing this deck vs UR/RUG?
- You get a slightly better combo matchup because you have Thoughtseize in your deck and your opponent can't interact with your life total or your creatures
- You have worse matchups vs basically every midrange/control fair deck
- Maybe in the pseudo-delver mirrors your winrate is slightly higher but it's still very close

Generally for legacy this equation doesn't really make sense (as in the % you gain from playing shadow compared to any other delver flavour vs combo isn't very large, and the meta % of combo also isn't that large)

I think what would make shadow a more decent choice again
1. Uro ban (not saying this will/should happen)
2. Printing of a better 2 mana secondary threat that provides CA (like if Ethereal Forager didn't die to bolt, or some UB wrenn and six kind of card, or slightly stronger confidant, something like that)
3. Printing of a 1 mana delver alt that's still a strong topdeck late (like a black hexdrinker)

Edit


The problem is the wincon, there's only one: playing into ETB dudes [SCM, Ice-Fang/Strix] and 1 mana removals in a Daze deck. The opponent only has one thing they need to disrupt: Shadow's combat step.

Shadow needs to break the pattern of "guess I lose b/c Daze is a dead draw and opponent got a PW...also I burned all my blue cards on not-blue spells [removals], so opponent's countermagic is unchallenged."

So you're waiting for a card that says Dreadnought and Shadow can be played together and simply resolving them into flipped Arguel's or Plow = gain 12, opponent lose 12 (this Vito effect is not on a competitive card yet). More direct damage to be had with Kaya 3cmc, which also kills Chalice. Get the wincon off the combat step.

The main problem is that the threats are too fragile, not that they only win by combat

The deck needs threats that are more resilient or provide CA so that it's not so backbreaking if you have to attack into strix.
The solution is not some kind of fling effect that lets you shoot opp face directly

[Fox]

It's pretty important to put an asterisk on legacy's budget decks, of which Shadow is cited as one. In a setting where legacy rounds are infinite [i.e. leagues], combo will always be over-played b/c the limiting reagent for rounds played = time per game (rather than match total).

Moreover, this window of free-wins b/c fair got banned has ended (Oko, DHA, Astro w/ increased REBs). This had further increased combo share in the league environment. The problem is now two-fold for legacy's budget category:
1- free wins for fair is coming back with REB w/ Ragavan.
2- the experience of excessive amounts of combo simply does not exist in local paper, online or paper tournaments, GPs, or Eternal Weekend.

Make no mistake, doing the Shadow thing harder is a dead end. While a level-up Delver or undercosted & largely unkillable 1-card combo [type PW] would help...the combo food doesn't exist at high levels outside of leagues. Wincon diversity is the only path forward.

Free power creep might hand out free wins, but if the wincon is just combat step, you'll never translate skill to win % past a certain point. All of the meaningful decisions belong to the opponent.

[Reeplcheep]

As someone who plays a deck that preys on combo, the unfair meta share in leagues, since the oko ban, has never been lower imo.

Ur delver is a lot easier for fair decks to beat and harder for combo to beat than snowko, and vice versa. If combo was present elves wouldn’t be the best performing deck.

And saying non combat decks have a higher skill cap is insane. The combat step has the most interaction and most complex decision trees out of any part of the game. Several articles have pointed out that in the long run lightning bolt players do better than combo decks.

Not to mention delver has been the best or second best deck since forever.

[FTW]

Does adding 2-3 Dreadnought address the threat count problem? There was no reason to run Dreadnought with Shadow before, but now Dress Down ties them together more smoothly without walking into the same 2-for-1s Stiflenought does.

You could still run 4 Stifles as a tempo play (making Daze and Wasteland better). Use them on Dreadnought sometimes but not necessary to all the time.

[Fox]

Elves is a combo deck itself @reeplcheep. So is Post, Storm, and anything else that heavily uses the GY to name a few. Plenty of Thassa out there too. You will never see as much combo as a league deck in a setting where rounds are finite without cards like DTT or Breach or TurboTibbs running the format.

People generally skew towards decks that don't leave them waiting 45 minutes for rounds to end. It's not worth investing 4h in legacy night to play like 20 minutes of magic - some people ofc prefer this, but they're in the minority.

It's not about non-combat decks being higher skill. I said if your *only* wincon is combat, your skill doesn't really matter, as the opponent makes all the relevant decisions. It's just true; I don't care how good you are as a Shadow pilot, you only have one way to win. I stop Shadow's combat step, they lose. All I'm playing against is someone executing predictable, linear commands and luck of the draw. I credit the Shadow pilot with perfect play and they can't outplay me b/c there is a ceiling that is hamstinging them...because they can only play one way. My job against Shadow only gets easier when they railroad themselves into this certainty with Ponder and Wraith.

[Reeplcheep]

Elves is a slow resilient combo deck. Usually that archetype has good fair matchups but dies hard to faster combo decks (see also aluren or food chain)

Technically if you stop standstills or sneak and shows combat step they lose too (assuming 0 jaces). Having big creatures and tons of disruption gives you the ability to shift your game plan substantially, which is the most skillful part of magic.

Edit: Lack of reach is a problem for death shadow for sure. But being the most xerox-y deck with the hardest disruption gives you more agency over a game than most midrange piles. Saying that a game where you go thoughtseize, t2 ponder thoughtseize, t3 gurmag has less agency than UWx piles with mentor in them (and only plows and forces as t1/t2 interaction) is rediculous.

[Fox]

Elves is a slow resilient combo deck. Usually that archetype has good fair matchups but dies hard to faster combo decks (see also aluren or food chain)

Technically if you stop standstills combat step they lose too (assuming 0 jaces). Having big creatures and tons of disruption gives you the ability to shift your game plan substantially, which is the most skillful part of magic.

You realize that we play towards direct damage, mill, and deterministic wins by complete mana denial; depending on the color config right? We are always attacking on more than one axis if correctly built. This ability to oscillate provides different context to cards - and this is where skill turns into win %.

[Reeplcheep]

You realize that we play towards direct damage, mill, and deterministic wins by complete mana denial; depending on the color config right? We are always attacking on more than one axis if correctly built. This ability to oscillate provides different context to cards - and this is where skill turns into win %.

In what meta are you playing such that combat denying cards (peacekeeper, bridge, moat) are seeing lots of play? So much that having no non-combat wincons is a significant weakness??? Against a deck like ds terminus, strix and coatl aren’t that different from plow. Not to mention that those cards see little play as well

[Mr. Safety]

- You can't play aggro/tempo as well as UR because your removal spells don't double as burn/reach and you have discard spells in your deck

- You don't want to play a long game (at least in game 1, you can build a sb to do this in certain matchups) where you play your own card advantage sources because if you give your opponents time they will have a deck that can make better use of them having more mana mid/late and your discard becomes much worse if the opponent is topdecking

- Therefore the deck walks a pretty fine line in the sense that it has no lategame but it's trying to kill the opponent quickly while having a low threat count and no burn spells and gets heavily punished if it overextends into swords to plowshares

So because it operates on such thin margins if there is anything that slightly pushes a % in favour of the opp it can be enough to make a matchup bad and the deck not very well positioned
- Uro
- Skyclave Apparition
- Veil
-Strix
etc

So what is the upside to playing this deck vs UR/RUG?
- You get a slightly better combo matchup because you have Thoughtseize in your deck and your opponent can't interact with your life total or your creatures
- You have worse matchups vs basically every midrange/control fair deck
- Maybe in the pseudo-delver mirrors your winrate is slightly higher but it's still very close

Generally for legacy this equation doesn't really make sense (as in the % you gain from playing shadow compared to any other delver flavour vs combo isn't very large, and the meta % of combo also isn't that large)

I think what would make shadow a more decent choice again
1. Uro ban (not saying this will/should happen)
2. Printing of a better 2 mana secondary threat that provides CA (like if Ethereal Forager didn't die to bolt, or some UB wrenn and six kind of card, or slightly stronger confidant, something like that)
3. Printing of a 1 mana delver alt that's still a strong topdeck late (like a black hexdrinker)

Edit



The main problem is that the threats are too fragile, not that they only win by combat

The deck needs threats that are more resilient or provide CA so that it's not so backbreaking if you have to attack into strix.
The solution is not some kind of fling effect that lets you shoot opp face directly

That was a great answer. Do you think UB Shadow has been relegated to (or has always been) purely a meta-deck that preys on combo-centric metagames?

[Fox]

In what meta are you playing such that combat denying cards (peacekeeper, bridge, moat) are seeing lots of play? So much that having no non-combat wincons is a significant weakness??? Against a deck like ds terminus, strix and coatl aren’t that different from plow. Not to mention that those cards see little play as well
Killing their guys = removing the combat step. E-Bridge = removing combat step. Invalidating 3dmg chunks w/ Uro = removing combat step. You kill the combat step and no amount of skill will result in a Shadow win.

[Reeplcheep]

Killing their guys = removing the combat step. E-Bridge = removing combat step. Invalidating 3dmg chunks w/ Uro = removing combat step. You kill the combat step and no amount of skill will result in a Shadow win.

Thought seizing abrupt decay or push is more reliable than dazeing them. Ensnaring bridge sees no play in legacy anymore since Chandra stompy was replaced by fire flux squad stompy. Gain 3 life is more relevant against 3/2s and bolt face than it is vs 8/8s. Death shadow is weak vs fair control and midrange decks, but that is because the unique interaction vs plow. Not because they don’t have non combat wincons.

Having multiple game plans is definitely valuable. But so is having a focused game plan. I refuse to believe that running painter grindstone in your burn deck improves it.

[Fox]

Thought seizing abrupt decay or push is more reliable than dazeing them. Ensnaring bridge sees no play in legacy anymore since Chandra stompy was replaced by fire flux squad stompy. Gain 3 life is more relevant against 3/2s and bolt face than it is vs 8/8s. Death shadow is weak vs fair control and midrange decks, but that is because the unique interaction vs plow. Not because they don’t have non combat wincons.

Having multiple game plans is definitely valuable. But so is having a focused game plan. I refuse to believe that running painter grindstone in your burn deck improves it.
Burn is unplayable vs the idea of lifegain. This is why they have diversified and gone to Roiling Vortex-types to maintain 2 paths to victory: combat damage and direct damage.

Shadow is a more complex deck in the sense that it runs a life-loss engine with multiple moving parts...but Burn, as bad and simple as it is, rewards player skill to a higher degree. There is no difference between the outcomes and play patterns of Shadow once you hit the ceiling. While Burn rewards skill, the standard deviations of success above its roughly 40% winrate ceiling don't really matter; you're still losing more than you win.

[Reeplcheep]

There is no difference between the outcomes and play patterns of Shadow once you hit the ceiling.

This is a tautology.

[Fox]

This is a tautology.

There's only one way a Shadow game ends: you have 1 Shadow in play and 1 Shadow in hand vs a deck with SCM, Plow, Wrath, and Ice-Fang. Welcome to the stock circumstances of every game vs fair magic; the card names will change, but it's all the same thing. Play the second Shadow, your deck is chock-full of instantly lethal dead draws, jam jam jam (or don't jam and still lose). It's not like you're ever winning without turning a dude 90 degrees; skill doesn't change this basic truth.

This is the end of the road for Shadow, take your skill and light it on fire; it doesn't matter. You only needed to hit the skill ceiling to unlock this endgame where only your opponent is making meaningful decisions. If you're a grand master Shadow pilot you realize that, although it is bound to fail, the only mistake you have left to make is not playing towards hardcasting Street Wraith.

It's a pretty miserable play experience when your deck is early-game Daze/Wasteland-gambling into the same situation of thoughtlessly executing game actions without compensation for skill. This is the Shadow experience, and you don't want to run this in a setting where combo isn't.

[Reeplcheep]

The skill ceiling is defined as the skill level at which you cannot improve your performance any more even if you get better... If you can improve past a ceiling it isn’t a skill ceiling by definition.

[FTW]

It's a pretty miserable play experience when your deck is early-game Daze/Wasteland-gambling into the same situation of thoughtlessly executing game actions without compensation for skill. This is the Shadow experience, and you don't want to run this in a setting where combo isn't.

This is why UB Shadow is a Modern deck. I never understood why it became a serious Legacy thing, other than that Modern players wanted to play Legacy events and couldn't afford Volcanic Island. (UR Delver is by far the better tempo deck, and since FoN & Borrower the deck even shored up its weaknesses in noncreature matchups like combo).

Even playing combo, you can outplay Shadow by playing for small win conditions instead of big ones. When the opponent suicided half their life total and has barely no threats in the deck, suddenly things like 4 Goblin tokens, a pair of Narcomoeba, or EOT Brainstorm setting up Tendrilsx4 represent actual win conditions. So although they have Thoughtseize + counters to attack the big things, how do they deal with these additional mini-threats when they're starting the game at 8 life? If you're a combo deck running discard, you can troll them with postboard Surgical. Then you have forever to sculpt a hand to beat counters.

I agree with Reeplcheep that cards like Ensnaring Bridge see little Legacy play. Perhaps the result is not enough decks have to meaningfully thought about what to do if you turn off the combat step. UWx control has so many ways to shut that door if it wants to. I'm doing that with Energy Field lately and it's winning more than it should because many decks can't fight that game (do I have more counters than you have Disenchants? GG). Karn decks could build to maindeck Bridges too, then leave them scrambling to answer it while it does other broken things undisturbed.

Edit: Back on topic, could Dreadnought + Dress Down patch the threat density issue?

[Fox]

It's a band-aid for a bullet wound @FTW. Drawing 4x Dress Down in a row is a helluva lot better than having 4+ Torpor Orb in play and wondering "why am I not winning?" The problem is the Shadow thing doesn't really work, and doing it harder is not progress. You're even weaker to Chalice and fair magic is still gonna answer your stuff for 1 mana, such that Daze will never have text...and all your opponent is playing against is the combat step - they're still the only ones making relevant decisions.

Dress Down here is being used like Scroll of Fate in monoU StifleNought. The raw power of Scroll's 3 mana Gideon [+1] impersonation will sometimes bail monoU out despite deck construction flaws; just like occasionally Dress Down will murder someone who went a little too heavy on deathtouch exploiting.

You didn't really increase your ownership of meaningful decisions in a game...you just maybe had a Dress Down cheese that was potentially devastating or game-winning. It's not really a game plan you can pursue, so much as a cheese the opponent will plan to play around.

If you want ownership of decisions, you have to attack a different resource they can't defend with SCM/kill spell/blah blah blah boring fair magic 1-card combos. So again we're waiting on Diamond Valley mode from Arguel's and a playable, hard-to-target Vito effect that says "12/12 on the stack, hemorrhage blue cards right now opponent...or I will resolve this, hold priority & sacrifice as activation cost, putting a gain 12/lose 12 trigger on the stack, that not even Sudden Edict will help you stop."

[FTW]

If Life's Legacy was an instant or Momentous Fall cost 2G, I wonder how much of a difference that would make. Converting a failed Dreadnought or Shadow to cards is a very good backup plan, but all the Greater Good effects currently cost too much. Lategame the green splash also lets you play Varolz scavenge to turn mana dorks into 13/13s, while the sac outlet draw engines ensure these cards make it to the grave even against white decks.

[Fox]

Don't think you play black if you're transmuting 1 mana into quad-Ancestral. Much easier to develop mana in a dependable 2c way and saying that sac Uro with the backup mode of draw 6+1 is good enough. Ideally it is both draw X and gain X for 1G. Until then, Lotus Field is the best thing to be doing in UG. You also have the ability to use Reclaimer to tutor up Cavern on Phyrexian (don't need to add black for PE). This has the added benefit of picking fights you don't care about on the opponent's end step with Dress Down with risk of uncounterable 12/12s.

Shadow does not synergize with this type of plan, and black doesn't offer any PWs. We get PE for free, and really are only missing 1 card black could possibly offer: Cling to Dust.

With Dreadnoughts you go UBw [Shadow] or UG [Uro/Lotus]. BUG (heavy in all 3 directions) is uninteresting as long as DRS is banned. We don't go where the mana isn't.

[kombatkiwi]

That was a great answer. Do you think UB Shadow has been relegated to (or has always been) purely a meta-deck that preys on combo-centric metagames?
Relegated to, maybe? Was always, no

The "your only axis of attack is the combat step" problem is true to a certain extent, but compared to the other delver decks it only reflects the idea that your opponent can use their life total as a resource with more flexibility because you don't have burn spells. If your opponent has a hand that's fully stocked with Strix/Plow/Verdict etc then any variant of delver is going to be hurting vs that, even the red ones. The "heheheh Swords is a 2 for 1 if you have double shadow out, deck is unplayable vs anything with W mana" idea is way overstated. Yes it's something you have to play around / be aware of but thats why you have cantrips/discard etc


Having multiple game plans is definitely valuable. But so is having a focused game plan. I refuse to believe that running painter grindstone in your burn deck improves it.
Accurate

The upside of shadow is that
- You have hard removal that kills anything compared to e.g bolt which struggles against big creatures
- You have discard and countermagic in your deck that also answers anything
- You're playing threats that are A) huge and B) cheap

So your deck has a supreme ability to ignore / answer whatever the opponent is doing and just kill them

Because you have this plan of "stopping the opponent before they start", games that you lose because things slipped through the cracks often looks/feel very silly/bad, e.g. your opponent resolves Jace and unsummons your guy and you don't have bolt in your deck. But if you played the matchup enough times what % of games would you have won by Thoughtseize / Hymn the Jace away? The point is not to play the deck that lets you feel smart the point is to play the deck that wins matches regardless of how supposedly 1-dimensional it is


Edit: Lack of reach is a problem for death shadow for sure. But being the most xerox-y deck with the hardest disruption gives you more agency over a game than most midrange piles. Saying that a game where you go thoughtseize, t2 ponder thoughtseize, t3 gurmag has less agency than UWx piles with mentor in them (and only plows and forces as t1/t2 interaction) is rediculous.
So yeah, pretty much this comment is what I am also saying


Invalidating 3dmg chunks w/ Uro = removing combat step.

Gain 3 life is more relevant against 3/2s and bolt face than it is vs 8/8s
This is like a fundamental misunderstanding of Uro, Reeplcheep is right that the healing salve mode is not really a problem at all, but the card would still be horrific for this deck to face even without that part of the text.

The problem with Uro is that in the gameplan of "Use your flexible disruption to ignore whatever the opponent is doing and kill them" is that Uro is fundamentally un-ignorable and un-disruptable with the tools that you have. You can't discard it to get rid of it and you can't counter it to get rid of it and you can't snuff out to get rid of it, it's just always there offering free resources. The entire gameplan of keeping the opponent low on resources just doesn't function against that card. Resolved Uro is also pretty backbreaking vs any kind of Delver but if you are UR then you can execute the plan of "Ignore whatever the opponent is doing by killing them extra quickly with my multiple haste threats and pointing my burn spells at their face" rather than "Ignore whatever the opponent is doing by Thoughtseizing it"


If Life's Legacy was an instant or Momentous Fall cost 2G, I wonder how much of a difference that would make. Converting a failed Dreadnought or Shadow to cards is a very good backup plan,
If you want to splash green for card draw as insurance against plow then you can just play Sylvan Library


This is why UB Shadow is a Modern deck. I never understood why
If you don't understand it then why would you bother thinking you can improve it by turning it into some kind of Varolz Dreadnought Greater Good nonsense

[FTW]

If you want to splash green for card draw as insurance against plow then you can just play Sylvan Library

If you don't understand it then why would you bother thinking you can improve it by turning it into some kind of Varolz Dreadnought Greater Good nonsense

I understand that UR Delver plays tempo much better overall and just keeps getting better tools. As for most of the things you mention that UR can't do (attack the hand vs combo, kill bigger threats, produce bigger threats), Grixis Delver can already do that. Grixis' downside is more vulnerable mana. But overall Delver variants have a better history of results than Shadow.

Playing against UB Shadow has always felt easier than playing against Delver. Shadow is more all-in on a linear plan that's easy to attack, and opponent starting the game with half life is a handicap most decks can exploit.

The card draw was just a theoretical question, if there was a version of that effect that was powered up enough and costed cheap enough. Not actually playing Greater Good here. Any deck can run green for Sylvan without needing to deal with Shadow's other vulnerabilities, and will probably have an easier time converting life to cards. A 2-mana Momentous Fall effect is something that a Shadow or Stiflenought player could uniquely exploit and could theoretically help the situation where you walk into removal/deathtouch and run out of threats. Maybe that isn't a weakness Shadow players want to fix, or maybe it doesn't help anymore than running conditional protection like Stubborn Denial. Playing against Shadow though, that's an easy pressure point to attack... Do you have a better solution for the threat density issue?

[kombatkiwi]

I understand that UR Delver plays tempo much better overall and just keeps getting better tools. As for most of the things you mention that UR can't do (attack the hand vs combo, kill bigger threats, produce bigger threats), Grixis Delver can already do that. Grixis' downside is more vulnerable mana. But overall Delver variants have a better history of results than Shadow.

Playing against UB Shadow has always felt easier than playing against Delver. Shadow is more all-in on a linear plan that's easy to attack, and opponent starting the game with half life is a handicap most decks can exploit.

The card draw was just a theoretical question, if there was a version of that effect that was powered up enough and costed cheap enough. Not actually playing Greater Good here. Any deck can run green for Sylvan without needing to deal with Shadow's other vulnerabilities, and will probably have an easier time converting life to cards. A 2-mana Momentous Fall effect is something that a Shadow or Stiflenought player could uniquely exploit and could theoretically help the situation where you walk into removal/deathtouch and run out of threats. Maybe that isn't a weakness Shadow players want to fix, or maybe it doesn't help anymore than running conditional protection like Stubborn Denial. Playing against Shadow though, that's an easy pressure point to attack... Do you have a better solution for the threat density issue?

Yes, if you want to play this deck with the card Delver of Secrets in it then it's basically just worse Grixis Delver:
- No red spells
- Casts BB spells more easily
- You get the benefit of playing a 1 mana 6/6+

Usually this is not a very good tradeoff (losing bolts / pyroblasts is really big) which is why I think playing UB Shadow with the card Delver of Secrets is bad

If you don't play the card Delver of Secrets then the lack of red spells isn't an issue because strategically you aren't as interested in any of your cards having a lava spike mode and being able to play BB spells more easily becomes more relevant because you are trading threat density for the ability to exchange resources more efficiently (Hymn to Tourach). Not playing Delver of Secrets "makes sense" (admittedly not to some people) because when your main threat is like 6/6-10/10 in size then pairing it on the board with a 3/2 doesn't really produce any meaningful effect. Instead of the 3/2 you would rather have a card that lets you trade resources with the opponent more effectively and "clear the way" for the 10/10

The lack of threat density is a conscious decision, it's both a strength and a weakness. It's not really the case that the deck is waiting for a good enough threat to be printed so that it can play more threats and increase threat density, it's waiting for the meta to shift so that the gameplan of sticking 1 threat and exchanging resources super efficiently can be good. This is not likely to be a realistic outcome while Uro is legal

Edit: for an example current build that plays to the unique strengths of the deck

4 Deaths Shadow
4 Street Wraith
4 Baleful Strix
2 Murktide Regent

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Removal
1 Force of Negation
1 Removal #3 / FoN #2 / Flex Spot (Darkblast is a funny combo with the Dragon and it's not bad in the format atm vs all the monkey/elves etc but possibly too cute still)

4 Wasteland
4 Watery Grave
2 Underground Sea
8 Fetchlands

4 Hymn and 4 Strix the best ways to 2-for-1 while trading away resources (as opposed to something like Night's Whisper which is also a 2 cmc 2 for 1 but keeps the opponent on the same number of cards)
A few huge threats and then all the efficient interaction
Certainly some matchups would not be favoured but possibly it can be addressed with SB cards

[kombatkiwi]

Spelltable FNM:

4 Deaths Shadow
4 Street Wraith
4 Baleful Strix
2 Tombstalker (wanted these to be murktide regents)

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Force of Negation
1 Dismember (wanted this to be another snuff out)
1 Snuff Out
1 Fatal Push

4 Wasteland
4 Watery Grave
2 Underground Sea
8 Fetchlands

SB
2 Liliana the Last Hope (wanted to try 1 of these to be a Tourach Dread Cantor but I never would have used it anyway)
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Plague Engineer
2 Infernal Contract / Cruel Bargain
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Darkblast
1 Force of Negation
1 Mystic Sanctuary
1 Eliminate (maybe should be sudden edict or something else)

Result:
2-0 MonoB Reanimator
2-0 UG Omni
1-2 Jund

List is fine-ish but no revolutionary thoughts about how to improve it

Trying to be this kind of semi-control deck is a bit fragile but its necessary to avoid just being 'worse delver'

Also interested in a build with more of a reanimate/grief focus
That build *might* actually want delvers (so that you can overrun with multiple 3power creatures) but it's not a guarantee

[Mr. Safety]

I think Gut Shot might be a pretty decent card right now. A lot of small threats running around that it can deal with handily.

I also think that Dragon's Rage Channeler is worth splashing red. This deck, because of street Wraith and possibly adding baubles, can easily turn it on. Red offers so much versatility as well, not the least if which is Pyroblast and Abrade in the board. Bolts may be ok, but I still like Gut Shot here. I'll probably get a set of DRC's and mess around with a red splash.

[Fox]

Grixis Shadow has never been that good, and although DRC is a better card than Delver, the deck really can't be playing low land counts and opening on Volc unless there is a Sea or Fetch in the hand as well. This kind of 3c opening play color-splitting is really dangerous, to the point that you'd probably need to cut Wasteland down to 2 slots for 2x Badlands. There's no good way to split colors this heavily and have Daze online and have 4x Wasteland to extend the Daze window.

The progress DRC would add comes at a reciprocal cost Shadow can't really afford. It's also coming at a very bad time as enemy Ragavan + Daze is way easier to execute and has a much higher ceiling. A Ragavan user also is free to play a 3rd color that comes online later (e.g. Prismatic Ending), while Shadow must establish black mana by turn 2 [and maintain black every turn after] or fall irrecoveravly behind.

Gut Shot is a bad card, and plays especially poorly alongside Daze. There is a heavy correlation between Daze being bad in a matchup and Gut Shot also being bad in that same matchup. Too many dead card liabilities to put in a maindeck.

The best red card is Spikefield Hazard, which had a way better backup use than Gut Shot could ever hope to. I doubt that Shadow could ever use it effectively, because the deck can't stay relevant in a long game.

DRC is a card made for optimal use in UR Dreadstill, as is Saga, Dress Down, and Spikefield [this one can be played a higher amounts by UWR Standstill]. Ragavan/Daze is a cheese (that will be banned) which plays optimally in not-Shadow decks.

To play Shadow optimally, you need to stay on your 2 main colors in the opening 2 turns. You also have to be realistic about Shadow's life loss combo not being well-positioned against increasing Bolt use, increased Prismatic Ending use, increased Saga use, and just being worse than the skillless Ragavan/Daze exploit spamming. There are only 1-card combos behind the life loss engine, and they are currently outclassed; ruining the mana/trading away the ability to play the game is not a solution...particularly with 8x slots invested in Ponder and Wraith which do not give you access to increased play patterns/interactions. Adding do-nothing Bauble on top of these squandered slots would be self-defeating.

[kombatkiwi]

Grixis Shadow has never been that good, and although DRC is a better card than Delver, the deck really can't be playing low land counts and opening on Volc unless there is a Sea or Fetch in the hand as well. This kind of 3c opening play color-splitting is really dangerous, to the point that you'd probably need to cut Wasteland down to 2 slots for 2x Badlands. There's no good way to split colors this heavily and have Daze online and have 4x Wasteland to extend the Daze window.
Yes


The progress DRC would add comes at a reciprocal cost Shadow can't really afford. It's also coming at a very bad time as enemy Ragavan + Daze is way easier to execute and has a much higher ceiling. A Ragavan user also is free to play a 3rd color that comes online later (e.g. Prismatic Ending), while Shadow must establish black mana by turn 2 [and maintain black every turn after] or fall irrecoveravly behind.
Yes (although this point and the previous one might be slightly overstated as Grixis Delver was an entirely functional deck even with the DRS ban and had somewhat similar mana requirements)


Gut Shot is a bad card, and plays especially poorly alongside Daze. There is a heavy correlation between Daze being bad in a matchup and Gut Shot also being bad in that same matchup. Too many dead card liabilities to put in a maindeck.
Yes


The best red card is Spikefield Hazard, which had a way better backup use than Gut Shot could ever hope to. I doubt that Shadow could ever use it effectively, because the deck can't stay relevant in a long game.
The card is obviously rubbish in shadow (cipt mountain or half of a lava dart? no). I'm not convinced it's good in your brews either but that's a separate conversation


DRC is a card made for optimal use in UR Dreadstill, as is Saga, Dress Down, and Spikefield [this one can be played a higher amounts by UWR Standstill].
Irrelevant


Ragavan/Daze is a cheese (that will be banned) which plays optimally in not-Shadow decks.
Whether it's a "cheese" is meaningless and whether it will or won't be banned is also irrelevant.
The point is to assess the relative merit of different decks in the format that exists right now.


To play Shadow optimally, you need to stay on your 2 main colors in the opening 2 turns.
Yes


You also have to be realistic about Shadow's life loss combo not being well-positioned against increasing Bolt use, increased Prismatic Ending use,
Manageable


increased Saga use
Unsure, need to test those matchups more


and just being worse than the skillless Ragavan/Daze exploit spamming.
"Skillless" is a meaningless assessment, you don't get any bonus points for playing weird brews and handicapping yourself.
Sure it might be worse than UR Delver (many decks undoubtedly are) but the interesting thing is to think about why and if there is anything that can be done to adjust the list accordingly


There are only 1-card combos behind the life loss engine, and they are currently outclassed
Whatever this means may or may not be correct but this is another example of you shorthanding your thought process behind your own proprietary jargon and therefore effectively communicating via nonsense that nobody else can understand


ruining the mana/trading away the ability to play the game is not a solution
If this refers to trying to add the third colour then yeah


...particularly with 8x slots invested in Ponder and Wraith which do not give you access to increased play patterns/interactions. Adding do-nothing Bauble on top of these squandered slots would be self-defeating.
This idea that a deck necessarily becomes better if you simply add more different things it can do is just false

[Fox]

It's important to realize that when a deck is just 1-card combos, that there's nothing going on in the background that guarantees continued relevance. When playing a deck like that and power creep happens, the deck ends up falling into irrelevance [tier 3]. To regain relevance [tier 2], the answer will never be doing the underpowered thing harder/more consistently. This is best exemplified by decks like Mentor and Blade, who keep doing this consistency stuff but never fixed the part where they're underpowered...so they're consistently underpowered [tier 2.5].

Now Shadow has things going on in the background which it can fall back on [the life loss engine], but everything on top of that is a field of 1-card combos which are all being power creep'd out. The solution isn't doing the thing harder, you have underpower problems. Ponder and Street Wraith are not adding power, and to address a power problem you will need these slots. Otherwise you're going to be waiting a long time for strictly better 1-card combo threats [creatures or undercosted PW] to get printed. The worst thing you could do with Shadow right now is to add even more consistency slots [Baubles] while you have an underpowered problem, which also happens to be running directly into Prismatic Ending and aggressive Bolt-using decks. Consistency is meaningless if the payoff is underpowered, and poorly positioned.

Shadow needs to change, or it's only good matchups will be vs combo. You know the wincon is picking fights over the mana since Bant midrange is tinkering with dangerously low land counts and the Delver-types also have suspect mana. These are your dominant problems [Ending and Bolt], and whatever is happening with the Saga matchup is also going to be about mana. Green plays nicer with heavy UB openers as it comes online later with cards like Trophy [the mana attack] and Library and Berserk [remember it kills Ragavan]; you also have an option to absorb a non-Pyroblast'able PW in Grist (which is better positioned than Last Hope) and it's a pretty good time for Deed's asymmetrical attack vs Urza's Saga. You know what needs to happen - you need those slots Wraith is stealing...because you need power, before consistency.

[kombatkiwi]

It's important to realize that when a deck is just 1-card combos
I have to stop you there because this idea has no clear definition. I assume you mean just like, good cards?


that there's nothing going on in the background that guarantees continued relevance. When playing a deck like that and power creep happens, the deck ends up falling into irrelevance [tier 3].
Ok but there's nothing to stop powercreep also affecting "non-1-card combo" decks like SNT or ANT either so this assertion seems meaningless


To regain relevance [tier 2], the answer will never be doing the underpowered thing harder/more consistently. This is best exemplified by decks like Mentor and Blade, who keep doing this consistency stuff but never fixed the part where they're underpowered...so they're consistently underpowered [tier 2.5].
"If X deck is not good anymore then it needs to change somehow if it wants to be good again" Sure, isn't this blatantly obvious


Now Shadow has things going on in the background which it can fall back on [the life loss engine]
What does "the life loss engine" even mean. The only card that rewards you for losing life is Shadow itself and it doesn't do anything except be an efficient threat


but everything on top of that is a field of 1-card combos which are all being power creep'd out. The solution isn't doing the thing harder, you have underpower problems.
Sure, this is why I am experimenting with greater numbers of midrange/value/control cards like Hymn/Strix rather than just being Grixis Delver sans red


Ponder and Street Wraith are not adding power, and to address a power problem you will need these slots. Otherwise you're going to be waiting a long time for strictly better 1-card combo threats [creatures or undercosted PW] to get printed.
Absolutely not true that these are the slots (ponder/wraith) that are the most inherently 'swappable'


The worst thing you could do with Shadow right now is to add even more consistency slots [Baubles] while you have an underpowered problem, which also happens to be running directly into Prismatic Ending and aggressive Bolt-using decks. Consistency is meaningless if the payoff is underpowered, and poorly positioned.
Bauble is not very good as a 'consistency' card because it just replaces itself with no selection and a 1 turn delay. It's only good if e.g.
a) you care about artifact in the graveyard (e.g. Delirium)
b) you care about knowing the top card of your library (e.g. Predict / CB)
c) You care about casting a ton of cheap spells (Mentor or something)
d) Auriok Salvagers or Mox Opal or whatever other synergy
The only suggestion of bauble was specifically as a DRC enabler, not because the deck vaguely needs more cantrips or something
"Cut this spell and add a cantrip" isn't necessarily good or bad advice, it depends on the context


Shadow needs to change, or it's only good matchups will be vs combo.
Ok, I dont think anybody really disagrees


You know the wincon is picking fights over the mana since Bant midrange is tinkering with dangerously low land counts and the Delver-types also have suspect mana. These are your dominant problems [Ending and Bolt], and whatever is happening with the Saga matchup is also going to be about mana. Green plays nicer with heavy UB openers as it comes online later with cards like Trophy [the mana attack]
Using trophy as manadenial simply does not work against decks with basics and this includes both Delver (UR being the most popular variant) and Bant


and Library
Library is a good card but infernal contract also usually does the job in matchups where you want this effect without adding the extra colour


and Berserk [remember it kills Ragavan]
Berserk is exactly the kind of effect that "does the thing" (combat step) with more dedication, I thought this was exactly the kind of effect you were trying to avoid? Using it as removal for Ragavan is also pretty awful


you also have an option to absorb a non-Pyroblast'able PW in Grist (which is better positioned than Last Hope)
They do different roles in different matchups.
The huge problem with Grist in this deck is anytime you cast it there's 0 chance you have any creature you're happy to sac.
You either sac one of your good creatures to kill something and hope they don't have a follow up to kill Grist or you just cast it and plus to make 1 insect and again hope there's no strong follow up, neither of these are very appealing. (Of course if you are way behind on the board against big creatures then Last Hope is also not great but at least Liliana is very good at being a kind of Night of Souls Betrayal


and it's a pretty good time for Deed's asymmetrical attack vs Urza's Saga
This is kind of interesting actually but maybe in a different deck


You know what needs to happen - you need those slots Wraith is stealing...because you need power, before consistency.
By this logic every blue deck should just cut its cantrips for "powerful" cards. ("I can't decide whether to play Endurance or Icefang. I guess I just cut my cantrips and play both"). This is just lazy/wrong deckbuilding.
Wraith almost certainly shouldn't be cut because it's too powerful of a Shadow enabler. The question is which "powerful" cards to play in the remaining slots

[mausoleum secrets ds]

Hey, I'm a long-time shadow player in modern, recently started playing the deck in legacy. After reading through pieces of this thread several members have suggested a red splash, which has been (correct me if I'm wrong) dismissed as putting too much strain on a fragile mana base. However, I still feel that a splash in either red or green would be beneficial towards improving the midrange and control matchups, or bringing shadow away from "worse delver".

THE RED SPLASH

Red obviously gives you pyroblast right off the bat, which is just a great card. Your probably going to be playing bolt as well, but it's worth noting that it's a lot worse if your not playing delver style cards, so I don't think it's an auto-include. Abrade is also a great card and could help with the new kaldra complete hatebears lists running round. But what I feel is to be most gained from splashing red is Ragavan. Obviously the card is nuts. What confuses me is why people have not(at least not to my knowledge) discussed playing it in shadow. Perhaps the answer is obvious but it's certainly eluded me. The card is comparable to drs in that it actually facilitates the splash into another colour by producing treasure tokens. KombatKiwi stated earlier that they felt it would be beneficial to shadow for a card to be printed that was both powerful as a turn one play and as a topdeck, which ragavan obviously is. I will come back to that point later, when I discuss the idea of splashing green. Another point is that an experienced tundra player is going to be hesitant to stp your delver when they think it is preventing you from playing shadow, but might think very differently about that when it's a monkey on the other side of the table, thus clearing the way for the chunky boi. Ok, so Ragavan is a very powerful turn one play that is insane when combined with daze. It also mitigates the drawbacks of playing three colours. What you obviously don't want to be doing is playing a Ragavan deck that's just worse than the standstill variants, but I don't think that would be the case, I genuinely believe the card could be great in shadow. What do you guys think? Another point is drc is imo just better than delver, and I definitely think it would be worth experimenting with, possibly in conjunction with mishra's bauble, although I have played the card without it and it is interesting to note that delirium is still very easy to enable. (also could the cards milled by drc possibly facilitate some synergy between it and reanimate?) (also also would it then be worth playing unholy heat then or is fatal push just better?) Anyway, those were my immediate thoughts on a red splash. Moving on to green....

THE GREEN TEA

Imo back when oko was a vibe green was a good thing to do in ds. Now tho.... idk. Lets take a look. Green gives you some really spicy stuff. Lets start with the obvious. Beserk- inconsistent, but looks so tantalizingly good... I have not got enough experience playing the card to say if the card is actually shit. Sylvan library-insane. One of the best reasons to be playing G. Good card is a good card, enough said. Abrupt decay and assassin's trophy- Abrupt decay is just plain good. Worth playing around 2 split between the maindeck and sideboard. Assassin's trophy is very interesting atm. On one hand it can be just worse ad. On the other hand occasionally it is going to be a sinkhole, it is great against crop rotation decks, and most intriguingly it kills murktide regent, which is a real problem for deaths shadow. Right now our only real way to deal with it is bounce with borrower. Sure snuff out does the job but it really hurts when your opponent is playing an aggressive deck with lightning bolt. Otherwise your hope is to never let the card resolve, but your opponent will probably be saving everything to try and force the regent through. So assassin's trophy seems very appealing, blowing up everything from t3feri, chalice, blood moon and the regent. Overall a promising choice. Veil of summer is just amazing. Uro is an idea but I object on a moral basis and also it really doesn't synergise with anything we are doing, we won't have lands to play most of the time, we don't want to gain life and we want to have a graveyard for angler. Still.... Idk. It wouldn't surprise me if the card worked there because it is just ridiculous. But we won't go there.

crop rotation- the land toolbox-can be a sweet sideboard option where you play bog, karaka's ect and two crop rotations, also tutors for wasteland at instant speed which is very relevant in some situations, especially relevant now that urza's saga is a thing. (also can be tricky by sacing a land in response to opponents wasteland which can save you from some very sticky situations). I have played a sideboard like this and it is really effective.

Green sun's zenith- Best green card ever printed? either way it is interesting as a threat, grabbing shadows, and as a tool to snare silver bullets. Can be good to grab sylvan safekeeper vs control for example. This brings up the idea of grist the hungertide, but the card has it's problems, which have already been pointed out. Also four mana is a LOT in a death shadow deck. But maybe? Could be an interesting tool in grindy games. Probably worse than either lii unless your playing zenith but idk. Either way Green sun's zenith could be good, but I have not seen a successful list playing it.

Ok- I said I'd touch on this- Hexdrinker. KombatKiwi said shadow needed a card resembling a "black hexdrinker". Why not just play the green one? I'll leave this one with you guys but it seems... promising? especially in a green sun's zenith style list... I think one of the biggest downfalls of the card is that it is vulnerable to prismatic ending which is everywhere atm. It is really going to hurt after spending four mana on this over two or three turns only to have it traded for one. Lets here some opinions.

Ok so that's me just with some ideas. I hope this contributes to the discussion, and would love to hear some opinions. Again, I am not a seasoned legacy player, but I think I have a decent general knowledge of the format and a good understanding of shadow.

[Fox]

It is important to have a clear idea of what your first two colors are. Daze and all mana-fixing [cantrips] dictate blue is a primary color, as is black which has all the high-quality wincons. Splitting color identity into green as well doesn't work before roughly turn 3. As far as Library goes, Prismatic Ending puts a significant damper on this tactic. To ensure value you would need to be on the play, cast Library on 2, and have a Daze for x=1 Ending. Daze fails to protect Library from Ending on the draw. When you examine the poor positioning of Library in legacy right now, it should be noted that if your value is already dead on arrival, you may as well stay on color with Confidant. Library used to be reliable, it isn't now.

[mausoleum secrets ds]

I agree that library is not as redundant as it once was due to the prevalence of everyone's new favourite removal spell. However, I feel that you are overstating this pretty dramatically. Prismatic ending is going to be trading with library for equal mana, on their turn. That's pretty ok for a shadow player, since they have to tap out and they now have their shields down. Besides the fact that not everyone is playing ending and the people who are won't be playing four copies. The card is most comparable to abrupt decay. People compare it to stp, but I feel this is similar to comparing decay to push. The cards are very different, people are playing them for different reasons. Plow is still going to be the white creature killing spell of choice. Ending is going to be played as a catch all answer in smaller numbers to deal with the multitude of noncreature threats in legacy. Imagine this situation- your playing against some bgx midrange variant. They play decay, ending you name it. But library is still probably the card I want to draw most in that mu. Besides this, library is far from the only card that green gives you, so even if it is lower impact than in previous years there are other draws to a green splash (no I am not saying that going g is in any way better than staying ub but I am saying that library being easier to kill is not a good enough reason to dismiss said splash). Finally, comparing library to bob is imo unrealistic. Bob is so far below library in terms of a card advantage engine. He also doesn't allow you to choose how much life you lose. And, compared to library he is incredibly fragile. Card dies to lava dart. I would not recommend playing bob in legacy shadow, ub or otherwise. Maybe you have had great results with him, in which case I would love to hear about it and where you played him.

[Fox]

In legacy we have a much narrower, and more interactive metagame than modern. We have 4 decks: Fetchland/usually with cantrips, Loam/Mox, Cavern/Vial, and Sol land/Chalice. In that list, Fetchlands/cantrips shape legacy, while the other 3 are anti-Fetchland/cantrips. There are mash-ups, for example SnT with Fetchland/cantrips + Sol lands, but if a deck lacks these things altogether, it isn't going to win.

The reason I bring this up is draw this strong connection between the Fetchland cartel and what legacy really is. If Fetchland cartel is unhealthy, the whole format is unhealthy. WotC has failed to address the rotten core of legacy: Tarmogoyf [which is now called Murktide], Counterbalance [sidelined by Uro], Hymn [sidelined by Uro], Echo, and Uro. Uro here is more of a proxy for FIRE cards that are anti-Goyf, rather than just one card. Ragavan is a card which lives under the umbrella term "Uro" as did Wrenn, Lurrus, DHA, Oko.

Let's simplify further: legacy is Goyf gamers vs anti-Goyf gamers. Remember Murktide = Goyf. This is the format you are trying to play Shadow in...Ragavan is still legal. Around 33% [let's estimate] of Goyf gamers are playing Ragavan + Ending, and it shouldn't surprise us that free monkey Petals are used this way. On the anti-Goyf side, they have to kill Ragavan...so they're playing Ending too.

This is an exceptionally bad time to try and exploit Library. Until Ragavan is banned, the moment you see non-DnT white mana that deck has 4x Plow and 3x Ending until proven otherwise. This tactic is all over tier 1, 1.5, and 2.

The cards do not exist which give Shadow an internal source of format relevance. That is to say, the legacy format does not have to react to Shadow b/c it already randomly craps all over its wincon. This is where modern-style deck construction gets in trouble. The answer in this situation is *never* to build like modern and do your thing harder.

Understand what the legacy format is and build backwards. It's not about doing your thing, it's about threading a needle through known effects. Right now there is a brick wall in legacy which Library doesn't get around. If you don't believe me, look at Uro piles before and after Prismatic Ending - where did the Libraries go? More importantly why did they go? All roads lead to Ending, and that road is paved by Ragavan.

[mausoleum secrets ds]

Ok. I feel like you've kinda just ignored what I have said, since you haven't really addressed any of my arguments. You've basically said the same thing twice, with a lecture on "what legacy really is" thrown in, and a rant about how ragavan needs to be banned. Your point that no-one plays sylvan library confused me too. To the best of my knowledge uro pile/control lists never played it at any point. And basically every deck that plays green other than bant control is running one or more copies, from lands to maverick to rug delver. I feel that your saying if a deck has an answer to your card then it is unplayable. Ragavan is terrible, everyone is playing one mana removal. Unplayable card. Death shadow? Dies to fatal push, unplayable. Sylvan library? dies to abrupt decay AND PRISMATIC ENDING????? Clearly not worth a slot. I am seriously confused what you are suggesting by "you can't keep doing the same thing harder". If by this you mean strategies that are falling behind with power creep need to be upgraded, I thought that was the entire point of this forum, in which case you are stating the very obvious. That is why I was suggesting a splash into red or green, because I thought that those colours could add power to the ub shell that was perhaps slightly lacking. If instead you mean something else I would love a clarification....

[mausoleum secrets ds]

On another note here is a list I have been tentatively testing which has a heavy red splash, what do you guys think?

cantrips and enablers

4x street wraith
3x mishra's bauble (powers out anglers earlier, turns on delirium, reason I am playing lower land count too)
4x ponder
4x brainstorm

countermagic and other interaction

4x fow
4x daze
1x stubborn denial (playing 2 copies of angler and 4 shadows so should be turned on relatively reliably)
4x thoughtseize
1x bolt (really want to play more of these but slots are tight and it is outclassed by other removal, can be good to throw at faces occasionally tho)
2x unholy heat (better than fatal push if you can turn on delirium, hits regent like 70 percent of the time)
1x snuff out (so efficient, hits regent)

threats

4x shadow
4x drc
2x angler (playing 4x bauble and drc so should be powered out fairly consistently)
1x reanimate (good with drc and we are playing 4x street wraith so 1 feels pretty good)

lands

4x wasteland
8x fetch
1x watery grave
1x steam vent
1x blood crypt
1x underground sea land count is so low because I am playing so many cantrips- may go up to 18 anyway
1x volcanic island wanted to play 9 fetches for angler but also wanted to be able to hard cast wraith.

sideboard- not yet happy but eh

1x abrade
2x plague engineer
1x darkblast (fuck ragavan, fuck urza's saga tokens and retrofitter foundry, elves and thalia)
3x red blasts
2x brazen borrower (I feel like I need more in the lands mu)
1x lili last hope (grind engine, kills alot of relevant stuff)
2x surgical extraction
1x grafdiggers cage
1x soul guide lantern
1x force of negation- more against red prison, good against loam, yet another card vs combo)

played some games, crushed omnitell, bw vial, smokestacks, rug devler and ragstill. Lost 2-0 to red prison and 2-1 to dredge, considering adding a copy of temur battlerage to the sideboard. After 7 games definitely feeling the strain on the manabase, particularly when you get hands with thoughtseize, channeler and cantrip, with one fetch land. I think it is reasonable to keep those hands but you end up being unable to cast one of your onedrops on turn two. On the other hand the deck felt powerful, I'm not completely sold on chaneler but the anglers it turns on have been great. Now I am going to work on a list that runs ragavan.

[Fox]

Okay, so you've said something important: you don't realize that Sylvan Library was spammed at around 2-3x copies in all Uro Piles, and was central to getting ahead with Uro and staying ahead before MH2. Something happened, and Library use started crashing (because it wasn't winning like it used to). These are trends you need to pay attention to - it is a very bad time to compromise your mana for the false promise of CA from Library. There is an arms race going on in legacy of Ragavan vs Ending, and the end result is more Endings on either side of that war.

Shadow cannot change that this cycle is happening to its detriment. Shadow has no inherent ability to throw its weight around in legacy and make other decks drop everything and ask themselves "what can I do to improve my Shadow matchup." The only way forward for Shadow is to accurately assess the relevant forces in legacy and dance around them. Adding a card like Library at this time runs into a brick wall you should already know about. For the record I am a huge proponent of UBg Shadow, but trading away that mana security no longer has a trustworthy payoff. Adding variance to a tier 2 deck is only acceptable insofar as power [in this case CA] rises in exchange.

You're talking about adding a third color while forces you can't control dictate you should be running towards basic Island and Swamp. This isn't about Library dying to removal, it's about the double-whammy. It's not just that the Library isn't going to work, but you'd be making your mana the easiest target for opponents at the same time. Add green and you go from losing on one front, to losing on two fronts.

[Mr. Safety]

I am looking to put this deck together again, probably Grixis for DRC and some number of Expressive Iteration. Unholy Heat and Pyroblast are also cards that reward a red splash. My question is this: is Murktide Regent a necessity? I was planning on 4x each of Delver/DRC/Shadow, probably dropping Street Wraiths and the typical 1-2 Reanimate for the Iterations. I have found a few Grixis lists but they don't seem optimal to me. Here is my starting list:

4x Delver
4x Dragon's Rage Channeler
4x Death's Shadow
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Thoughtseize
3x Snuff Out
3x Lightning Bolt
4x Expressive Iteration
4x Polluted Delta
3x Scalding Tarn
1x Marsh Flats
3x Watery Grave
1x Steam Vents
1x Blood Crypt
1x Island
4x Wasteland

Sideboard stuff:
Brazen borrower
Pyroblast
Surgical extraction
Nihil spellbomb
Unholy Heat
Narset
Stubborn Denial
Abrade
Bitterblossom
Liliana the Last Hope
Sudden Edict
Hymn to tourach

Is this even worth doing without Murktide? My hesitancy comes from a potential Murktide ban. I am also wondering if I need some number of Bauble/Street Wraith to feed delirium. Not sure where to trim for that stuff, probably shave down to 3-of on some cards like Thoughtseize and Iteration.

[kombatkiwi]

TS is not a great card right now and Shadow isn't a big get if you're losing Murktide (both cards fill a similar role), so once you commit to playing the same package of 8 one-drops you're basically playing UR delver with a worse manabase and slightly worse spell quality just to enable Snuff Out. Doesn't seem worth it to me. If you still want to play a list like that for budget reasons or scared-of-bans reasons I would probably do along the lines of what you said (trim thoughtseize for wraith/bauble)

[Mr. Safety]

Good points. The biggest reason for red is Pyroblast in the board and finding a way to squeeze in Iteration, however I think Mystical dispute does a passable Pyroblast effect, Bitterblossom
and Narset can provide grindy advantage, and Brazen borrower can fill the role of artifact 'removal' to compensate for not having Abrade. I think I'll keep it UB and just bite the bullet for Murktides. If it gets banned I can just play borrower main or go back to Angler/Reanimate for threats.

If Thoughtseize isn't great I could see cutting to 2-3 copies, which opens up space for Stubborn Denial or Fatal Push. I can't really see Drown in the Loch at 2 mana being correct, but maybe its good enough? Darkblast seems decent as well, especially with Murktide as Dredge feeds it.