Mausoleum Secrets / Oath of Ghouls Midrange

[ReAnimator]

New sets get me brewing. Anytime there is a cheap tutor, especially at instant speed it’s worth taking a look. Mausoleum Secrets has some limitations for sure, you have to jump through some hoops, but are those hoops unmanageable? And are the benefits worth it?

Mausoleum Secrets (https://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/guilds-of-ravnica/35318-mausoleum-secrets)
1B
Instant​
Undergrowth — Search your library for a black card with converted mana cost less than or equal to the number of creature cards in your graveyard, reveal it, put it into your hand, then shuffle your library.

My first inclination is to try to build something around a deck that would want Street Wraith and Faerie Macabre. They are both free to get in your graveyard, and are both legacy power level already.
So that’s a good first step, but what else can we be doing?

I was thinking of other cards that could synergize with both of those creatures and thought of Oath of Ghouls. This reserve list beauty (Oath of Druids isn’t reserved?!?!) can be a powerful but slow card advantage engine and it cares about creatures in your Graveyard (Wraith) and keeping creatures out of your opponents graveyards (Macabre).

So two reasonably costed card advantage and tutoring engines that synergize with creatures that power them up. A good and grindy start. So what sort of deck would want these sort of actions going on?
Probably a mid range or control, we aren’t fast, and we care about the game going long and have the ability to find the perfect answers and to re use them if they are creatures or if we have a creature that can regrow them, which luckily black already has in Xaiodun, the One Eyed.
That leaves us with a skeleton that looks like this as a starting point. It’s possible we don’t want that many Oaths or Secrets but I’d like to start them out high to really see how well they work.

3 Oath of Ghouls
3 Mausoleum Secrets
4 Street Wraith
4 Faerie Macabre
1 Xaiodun, the One Eyed

So we need some disruption to get us to the late game to then grind out opponents, we are also going to be pretty mana hungry. I haven’t done extensive Gatherer Searches, just yet but I have a good idea of the things I want in here in theory. We don’t actually need to just pack a ton of bullets in here, there are a lot of reasonable catch all answers, and we can use bullets to cover more corner cases.

Some options for disruption:
Lilly of the Vale
Thoughtseize
Therapy
IOK
Collective Brutality
Hymn

Lilly works well with Oath of Ghouls. Lilliana the last hope’s negative ability is also pretty valuable in here, for dumping things in the bin but might not be what we want in the main deck.
I’m leery of thought seize, as our draw engine is going to be pretty life loss based, because of Street Wraiths, which leads me to want some Brutalities.
I’ve run IOK in Pox, but every time you need to grab a 4+ spell it drives you nuts.
Hymn is great, but we are probably going to be very bottle necked at 2.

Assassin’s Trophy seems like the best catch all we could be on. (I’m probably going to run a split of Abrupt Decay and Maelstrom Pulse in their place until I can afford them or the price comes down, which will make the deck much worse I’m sure, but I have to start somewhere).

Fulminator mage interests me quite a bit. We want to slow the game down and create mana advantages, and we want things that can self sacrifice or get into the graveyard on their own.

4 Fulminator Mage

3-4 Assassin’s Trophy
2 Lilliana of the Vale
2 Collective Brutality
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge

We need some more creatures if this is where we are starting, and we need to pack in some more life gain as well.

Dark rituals are something that might be interesting too for kicking up the speed, but they add some inconsistency and also might not work great with how our curve is. Probably worth testing.

The life gain options aren’t super great, I think Kalitas, traitor of Geth and Gray Merchant of Asphodel are decent as one ofs, but are going to be hard to tutor for. Gifted Aetherborn is actually a pretty decent card, but not very powerful, it’s sort of what we are in the market for.

Other creatures we are in the market for with effects that work with our overall plan:

Kitesail Freebooter
Fleshbag Maurader
Minister of Pain
Rotting Rats

With a first draft like this I’m ok with a bunch of weird numbers and one of’s just to see what works and what is valuable to us.
I worry that there isn’t enough early action, and want to up the 1 drops a bit.


4 Street Wraith
4 Faerie Macabre
1 Xaiodun, the One Eyed
4 Fulminator Mage
1 Kitesail Freebooter
1 Fleshbag Maurader
1 Minister of Pain
2 Gifted Aetherborn

3 Oath of Ghouls
3 Mausoleum Secrets
3 Assassin’s Trophy
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Lilliana of the Vale
2 Collective Brutality
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Fatal Push

4 Wasteland
3 Bayou
6 Swamp
6 Fetches
1 Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth


This looks like it needs a bunch more creatures to turn our engines on a bit. I wonder if we can just drop some of the spells for similar creatures.

Another idea I had was run the full boat of Stitchers Suppliers and Cabal Therapies. It not only powers up your engines it also helps with the 1 drop slot.

Testing will tell.

After sideboarding there has to be a strategy to mitigate Surgical Extraction. I’m not sure exactly what that will entail, it might just be our own surgicals to grab theirs.

I think this is a fun idea with some potential, and would love to get some feedback especially if I’m missing something super obvious.

On paper this looks a little clunky but it’s doing a lot of powerful midrange stuff that really isn’t present in the format right now and I think some of these strategies are worth exploring even if the exact details aren’t right in this early phase.

[JackaBo]

I actually bought a playset of oath thinking it would be a good engine sans DRS.
This might be a promising shell

[Gasmaskdandy]

Just saw this deck and I'm absolutely in love. As a mono-color player at heart, I'm thinking 4x Port, 4x Wastelands, 4x Urborg, and a bunch of swamps along with Dark Ritual, Sticher's Supplier, and Cabal Therapy will probably be my set up. The other idea I had was to run Bomat, Badlands and pray the next set gives us good stuff for BR. We could even go for a BR reanimation backup plan. I'll drop some lists later, still getting used to the forum.

-Gasmaskdandy

[kinda]

I've played oath of ghouls in a number of brews. It combos with...leyline of the void...Scavenging Ooze...the new Tormod's Crypt bear...contamination...Shriekmaw...buried alive getting necrotic ooze and friends...(tidehollow sculler if you have a sac outlet and ideally vial). The new tutor you mention can find helm if you run Leyline of the Void.

[maharis]

Oath of Ghouls doesn’t target so you could use Silent Gravestone vs. Surgical.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ReAnimator]

Oath of Ghouls doesn’t target so you could use Silent Gravestone vs. Surgical.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's true and i think that card is super powerful, but it does shut off our Macabre's which might be an issue. It's possible keeping both in after board could be fine vs very grave reliant decks.

I think it could probably survive one surgical but the second would be difficult, so surgical on surgical could be a strategy too.


Thanks for the kind words Gasmaskdandy


@Kinda, the new tutor can't fetch helm as it's not a black card.




I had another idea, might be too weak, but twisted Abomination or any of the mana cycling creatures might be a good draw engine and something to do on turn one. This would relieve pressure on the street wraiths.

Options include:


Architects of will
Horror of the broken lands
Archfiend of Ifnir
Undead Gladiator
Lurching Rotbeast


Horror seems the best by far, but Architects have their reasons and a one of Archfiend could be useful.

If there is an additional cycling package it will let a lighter mana package be feasible.

[kinda]

Good point...um...painters servant plus grindstone?

[Mr. Safety]

If you're cycling a ton and filling your graveyard with creatures, I would consider these cards:

Living End
Living Death
Crypt of Agadeem
Yahenni's Expertise


Crypt seems bonkers, potentially close to Gaea's Cradle power level in the right circumstances. It allows for fairly high converted mana costs to be feasible, like with Living Death. Multiple Street Wraiths and/or Faerie Macabres, or an enabler like Putrid Imp, could make it tap for easily 4+ on turn 3. This might be too slow without acceleration like Dark Ritual, but I think Dark Ritual would work fine as well. You then have big mana and a big payoff (4+ creatures on the battlefield, hopefully lethal the turn after you cast it.) This might be closer to Modern power level, but it still seems really cool.

[ReAnimator]

If you're cycling a ton and filling your graveyard with creatures, I would consider these cards:

Living End
Living Death
Crypt of Agadeem
Yahenni's Expertise



Crypt seems bonkers, potentially close to Gaea's Cradle power level in the right circumstances. It allows for fairly high converted mana costs to be feasible, like with Living Death. Multiple Street Wraiths and/or Faerie Macabres, or an enabler like Putrid Imp, could make it tap for easily 4+ on turn 3. This might be too slow without acceleration like Dark Ritual, but I think Dark Ritual would work fine as well. You then have big mana and a big payoff (4+ creatures on the battlefield, hopefully lethal the turn after you cast it.) This might be closer to Modern power level, but it still seems really cool.


Living End is just too slow, unless we are building around it. I think Living Death is sort of in the same camp too. I think once we have Card advantage engines on line, or are able to tutor for 5 drops we shouldn't need much help winning form that position, but i could be wrong, maybe having a nice one of "I win" style card to close things out quickly is what we want to be doing.

I'm not sure what Yahenni's Expertise is supposed to do for us.

Crypt however is very interesting. Coming in tapped is a big draw back, but I'll definitely try a couple out and see if they are too clunky.

They would help us to start deploying the big 5 drop threats when we are trying to actually win the game after it's been locked up.

Was doing some thinking and i think a 1 of Bone Shredder should go in here. It's clunky but it is very recursive and a flying blocker is pretty valuable as well.


I think i'll start testing this:

4 Street Wraith
4 Faerie Macabre
4 Horror of the Broken Lands
4 Fulminator Mage
1 Xaiodun, the One-Eyed
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Minister of Pain
1 Bone Shredder

3 Oath of Ghouls
3 Mausoleum Secrets
3 Assassin’s Trophy
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Collective Brutality
4 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Fatal Push

4 Wasteland
3 Bayou
4 Swamp
6 Fetches
2 Crypt of Agadeem
1 Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth


Would like a recursive creature that could make the opponent discard. But Thrull Surgeon is too clunky. I'll do a gatherer search to see if there is anything interesting.

With Horror in the mix for the draw engine, i'm more ok with Thoughtseizes being in here as our life total will be less pressured now.

koskun falls might be going to deep, but with our fairly heavy land destruction theme i would be interested in this maybe out of the board. But we don't really have cheap creatures to keep if fuelled.

[Laser Brains]

I'm not sure if this helps but off the top of my head: Maybe Tortured Existence with or instead of Oath of Ghouls. If so Squee, Goblin Nabob. Also cards like Entomb and Anger come to mind.

[Mr. Safety]

Expertise casts our Living Ends for free.:cool: With so much cycling it isn't unrealistic to get both in your hand at once.

I misunderstood your intent, I thought you were looking for an explosive combo deck not a fair grindy one. Oath of Ghouls is definitely very slow. With Dark Ritual and Crypt of Agadeem you can afford the higher end on the spells like Living Death. I figured you wanted to cycle a bunch and then get them all back for a lethal attack.

I thought the free cycling cards (Faerie/Street Wraith) were a very cool idea to start building around because it enables fast and powerful Mausoleum Secrets. If you had 12-16 slots of this type of effect you could really build something explosive. Even with Dark Ritual + cyclers for B or 1 so you can draw into more mana sources/cyclers. Threshold will happen quickly for Cabal Ritual.

4x Lotus Petal
4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
1x Chrome Mox

4x Faerie Macabre
4x Street Wraith
4x Archfiend of Ifnir
4x Horror of the Broken Lands
4x Lurching Rotbeast

4x Mausoleum Secrets
2x Living Death

3x Cabal Therapy
4x Thoughtseize

13x Swamp
1x Crypt of Agadeem

Turns 1-2 should be a flurry of mana and cycling, ending with a Mausoleum Secrets in hand. You can accomplish this with only Lotus Petal + Dark Ritual, which means you can sometimes get a crypt down t1. Realistically you'll probably set up a few cyclers, discard, and get mana situated. That should set you up with a turn 3-4 Living Death and lethal attackers. Mausoleum is looking for only one target, and that's Living Death. The Expertise + Living End costs 1 mana less, but that probably isn't a big deal. Five mana is 2 Dark Rituals or 1 Cabal Ritual after threshold. There is t1 combo potential here, although probably not reliably.


*shrug* That's how I would do it...

EDIT: Cabal Therapy + Veteran Explorer seems interesting as a mana engine as well. This allows Verdant Catacombs to get Dryad Arbor for Therapy, and green opens up disruptive elements like Abrupt Decay, Assassin's Trophy, and Krosan Grip.

EDIT#2: Bone Shredder is inferior to Shriekmaw in every way.

[ReAnimator]

If you are going turbo combo the card you want is song of the damned.
But yes that's a very different deck. I think control/midrange makes more sense, if we are going fast combo, then why aren't we just reanimator? There really isn't a good reason.

As for Bone Shredder, it's superior in that it only costs 3 to tutor up. It also Flies, and it self Sacrifices so you can cast it every turn. So yes it's superior to shreikmaw in here, in 3 different ways.

[Mr. Safety]

If you are going turbo combo the card you want is song of the damned.

YES, this is definitely very good. It makes Crypt of Agadeem obsolete, for sure. It will probably take up some number of Lotus Petals, or maybe the Chrome Mox. Collective Brutality seems good here as well, if only to act as removal for Containment Priest.



But yes that's a very different deck. I think control/midrange makes more sense, if we are going fast combo, then why aren't we just reanimator? There really isn't a good reason.

Not losing to Diabolic Edict seems ok to me. Also, the deck would be incredibly cheap and consistent with all of the cyclers to set up the combo turn.


As for Bone Shredder, it's superior in that it only costs 3 to tutor up.

Why would you waste MSecrets to tutor a Bone Shredder when you could win the game instead?


It also Flies, and it self Sacrifices so you can cast it every turn. So yes it's superior to shreikmaw in here, in 3 different ways.

Shriekmaw has fear, 3 power, and is better hard cast at 5 than Bone Shredder at 2. If you're going fair, every bit of power counts. Bone Shredder is good with Oath of Ghouls...but Shriekmaw will eventually be better because you'll hit 5 mana, hardcast it, and attack for 3. There's a reason Bone Shredder doesn't see play anymore, and most of that reason is Shriekmaw. We're splitting hairs over 2 fringe cards that are hardly playable, lol. Volrath's Stronghold + Shriekmaw still sees play in some Nic Fit decks, and Shrieky sees play in Deadguy Ale lists as well.

TL;DR - Oath of Ghouls opens you up to slow grave hate. At least MSecrets + fast mana + Living End can combo within one turn.

[ReAnimator]

I like the idea of a fast "Grave Storm" deck but it is way way different than what i'm going for. Might be worth starting up another thread if you want to explore it more. Stitcher's supplier and maybe some Stinkweed Imps could potentially make it even faster. I still don't think building an all in combo that is slower than other options and reanimator is going to get you very far other than having fun.

I know slow and grindy is less sexy, but i also think it would be more resilient and able to compete with the fair decks in the format. It would be more able to fight through hate and disruption, and more able to stop your opponents game plans.

[Mr. Safety]

Fair enough. Sorry if I took the discussion 'off the rails' a bit. Good luck with Oath of Ghouls!

[ReAnimator]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DnZA49ZUAAABcCs.png

Well this thing is a gigantic upgrade over Fleshbag Marauder!!!!

Holy crap this does a lot of good things, and it's not dead vs empty boards!


@Mr. Safety
No worries happy to have you chime in.

[Koplinchen]

I actually bought a playset of oath thinking it would be a good engine sans DRS.
This might be a promising shell

I wish it was true. :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Gasmaskdandy]

Bought my playset of Oaths. I'll be testing the deck with a friend either tonight or soon, and I'll report back. I'm going to try going mono-black, but I'm stuck on whether or not to run port or maybe painter-stone. Testing will give us results.

[Wrong Trousers]

Hey folks, i'm loving this idea, here is my take...

3 Oath of Ghouls
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 High Market
5 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
4 Assassins trophy
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Collective Brutality
4 Street Wraith
4 Bad Moon
1 Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
4 Faerie Macabre
4 Shardless Agent
1 Island
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Tropical Island
1 Plague Channeler
1 Minister of Pain
2 Archfiend of Ifnir
1 Miren, the Moaning Well
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

Its a lot of fun and shardless adds another 4 tutors and you are happy to hit everything. I could do with more life gain but as has previously been mentioned its hard to come by, maybe thinking outside the box, something like trading post maybe?

Any suggestions?

[Wrong Trousers]

Hey folks, i'm loving this idea, here is my take...

3 Oath of Ghouls
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 High Market
5 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
4 Assassins trophy
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Collective Brutality
4 Street Wraith
4 Bad Moon
1 Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
4 Faerie Macabre
4 Shardless Agent
1 Island
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Tropical Island
1 Plague Channeler
1 Minister of Pain
2 Archfiend of Ifnir
1 Miren, the Moaning Well
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

Its a lot of fun and shardless adds another 4 tutors and you are happy to hit everything. I could do with more life gain but as has previously been mentioned its hard to come by, maybe thinking outside the box, something like trading post maybe?

Any suggestions?

Bad moons are Mausoleum Secrets, my bad

[kinda]

Hey folks, i'm loving this idea, here is my take...

3 Oath of Ghouls
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 High Market
5 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
4 Assassins trophy
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Collective Brutality
4 Street Wraith
4 Bad Moon
1 Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
4 Faerie Macabre
4 Shardless Agent
1 Island
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Tropical Island
1 Plague Channeler
1 Minister of Pain
2 Archfiend of Ifnir
1 Miren, the Moaning Well
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

Its a lot of fun and shardless adds another 4 tutors and you are happy to hit everything. I could do with more life gain but as has previously been mentioned its hard to come by, maybe thinking outside the box, something like trading post maybe?

Any suggestions?

This looks really solid actually...only thought is there isn't much top end post explorer. I would look to add in green Sun's Zenith plus scavenging ooze and some bigger gsz threat. Scooze helps make sure oath doesn't become a liability. I would cut some faerie Macabre.

[ReAnimator]

Cool Idea Trousers!

I like the idea of Veteran Explorer with Assassin's Trophy. I'd probably want to squeeze in a couple of the Horror of the wastes in there, just to turn on the Oath's a little more naturally and to have a big finisher worked in as well, Arch fiend is good, but the 2 mana cycling is very clunky early on.

I like the Explorer idea a lot, i'm going to try it in my mono black style list, since it's so mana hungry anyway. I'll cut the Fulminators down and focus on hand disruption rather than land.


@Kinda:
GSZ with Shardless, seems like a bit of a non bo.

[Gasmaskdandy]

I've settled on running a BW version of this deck, with Gerrard's Verdict and Vindicate . I think Verdict card is really good but I'm willing to be proven wrong. It seems like it's pretty much hymms 5-8. I honestly just want an excuse to use my scrublands that have been sitting in my binder forever.

Also, I saw this guy in another thread and I think he's bonkers, particularly in the MonoB List - Plague Spitter . Against DNT and Goblins, he demands an answer if you Dark Ritual him out. He puts down a nasty clock and if we get a sac outlet for him we can extend his range pretty heavily. He's not bad turn three either, as Thalia doesn't catch him.

Thoughts? I'll try to put together a list this weekend, but I've got papers to right :frown:

[bruizar]

I didn't realize people were onto this. I had been working on this list in secrecy for a while, but I might as well post the list here. Mind you, my list was before Ravnica 3 so I did not have access to Mausoleum Secrets yet. The goal here is to share my insights and combine it with what you guys have made. It's very much a sketch/draft that I've been trying to improve, so if it looks janky that's because I wouldn't normally have shared it in public.

OG

[20 land]
1 x Marsh Flats
4 x Polluted Delta
4 x Flooded Strand
1 x Scrubland
2 x Underground Sea
2 x Tundra
1 x Tropical Island
1 x Bayou
1 x Plains
1 x Volrath’s Stronghold
1 x Island
1 x Swamp

[16 Control]
3 Force of Will
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
1 Intuition
4 Oath of Ghouls

[10 Graveyard Dominance]
2 Faerie Macabre
4 Street Wraith
4 Remorseful Cleric

[14 Utility Creatures]
1 Fulminator Mage
2 Nimble Obstructionist
2 Fleshbag Marauder / Shriekmaw / Night Incarnate
4 Baleful Strix
1 Yuriko, The Tiger's Shadow
1 Liliana, Heretical Healer
1 Kami of False Hope
1 Ghost-Lit Warder
1 Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed

[Sideboard]
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Ground Seal
1 Bitterblossom
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Fulminator Mage
2 Mausoleum Wanderer
1 Dust to Dust
1 Ghost-lit Redeemer
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
2 Mistcaller
1 Meddling Mage


Findings and limitations
What I like about ReAnimator's list is that it is very focused. The list above here is a bit scattered, but it does have very powerful interactions. I wanted to squeeze in 4 Stifles, Fulminator Mages and 2 Nimble Obstructionist but could not find the room for it. The rationale behind this was that now that DRS is gone, multicolor manabases will rely even more heavily on fetchland manabases, so stifle becomes much stronger. I perhaps have dedicated too many slots toward creature hate, but I am not sure. The Kami of False Hope plan is solid, and having a creature planeswalker that returns via oath of ghouls is also great. I'm also very happy with Bitterblossom and Night Incarnate (though not at the same time ! :P)


Single Card Explanations

Liliana, Heretical Healer / Liliana, Defiant Necromanceris the best Liliana for this deck. You can get her back with Oath of Ghouls repeatedly, and she even leaves a Zombie body that you can sack or block with. Having recursive planeswalkers is crazy.

Kami of False Hope could be replaced for Spore Frog if you go more heavily for green. I suggest at least one of either because it shuts down decks completely.

Remorseful Reverend Auto-enables Oath of Ghouls in a way that Faerie Macabre and Street Wraith can't, and it can kill a Delver too (but it costs mana!)

Night Incarnate gives you a catch all sweeper against both Young Pyromancer and Monastery Mentor and stronger creatures

Nimble Obstructionist lets you stifle things (Dark Depths) without the opponent being able to counter it. It ALSO draws a card when you cycle it for the Stifle. It's a 3/1 flying flash body that you can use to chump or kill creatures. I view this as a competitor to Vendilion Clique.

A sideboard or even maindeck silver bullet Bitterblossom would make a great target for Mausoleum Secrets

Ghost-Lit Redeemer provides a steady stream of 4 life per turn against burn, making it improbable that they will ever be able to burn you out effectively

Ghost-Lit Warder is expensive, but helps lock your opponent out even against control decks, because it cannot be countered back except with a Stifle

Ground Seal is important for this deck in the sideboard. Remorseful Reverend targets an opponent, not a graveyard, so you can still exile your opponent's GY with Ground Seal on the table. Oath of Ghouls will still work because it does not target.

Volrath's Stronghold is to this deck what Academy Ruins is to artifact decks. It also combines nicely with Yuriko, The Tiger's Shadow as you can put to top a Street Wraith to deal 5 extra damage, draw it, then cycle it to draw an other card. Stronghold with Liliana Heretical Healer is also nice (slow but nice).

The maybe stuff
The list I posted is still kind of chaotic, which is why it wasn't released yet. Some of the cards I was considering include (bare with me, this may get janky. I consider cards very loosely because I bias toward inclusion out of FOMO / fear of oversight):

Palace Jailer - Easy to keep the monarch and dominate the board. Sacrificing and replaying Palace Jailer can help you lock out many creatures. Especially good against Show and Tell I think.
Nevermaker - Nice way to lock out an opponent
Caustic Caterpillar - Disenchant on a stick in green.
Qasali Pridemage - Catches enchantments and artifacts, but difficult colors
Wispmare - Goes to the graveyard immediately and efficiently beats enchantments. Only play if you have an enchantress player in your meta I guess.
Ronom Unicorn - Only catches enchantments, probably better to run Abrupt Decay or Abrupt Decay 2.0
Anafenza, the Foremost - Good combination of graveyard hate and beatstick
Tragic Poet - Way to get back OG, can be done with Xiao-Dun
Oversold Cemetery - Oath of Ghouls No 5/6, now that there is an efficient tutor, no longer a consideration
Linessa, Zephyr Mage - I really wanted to try this out, it is the most powerful thing I could find that I would want to do with Oath of Ghouls. It combos great with Intuition.
Oriss, Samite Guardian - Not as powerful as Linessa, but great for locking out storm decks (if you can survive until then). Didn't go for it.
Burrenton Forge-Tender
Journey to Eternity / Atzal, Cave of Eternity - Only makes sense with reanimator creatures, and then reanimate is better, since OG already puts them back in your hand
Athreos, God of Passage - Speeds up recursion, but only from play.. it actually kills Gurmag Anglers if you can animate it, the slots in your deck are too precious to spend on Athreos though.
Vexing Devil - If only it weren't red, I'd probably try it out
Vampire Hexmage - Shoots planeswalkers. Good silver bullet in metas with Arena Rector Nicfit lists. Other uses include disrupting cards like Chalice of the Void and Aether Vial, but those have a much lower impact. You could consider running a singleton Dark Depths with access to so many Mausoleum Secrets. Also, 2/1 first strike is actually not that bad!
Gift of Immortality - Allows you to chain certain cards like Fulminator Mage or Mausoleum Wanderer in each players turn.
Diabolic Intent - Obsolete with Mausoleum Secrets
Glen Elendra Archmage - Late game control over non-creatures. The deck can deal with creatures easily, but spells can be difficult.
Blessed Alliance

[kinda]

Leyline of the void didn't even make the maybe list?

[bruizar]

Leyline of the void didn't even make the maybe list?

I think those are redundant!

[ReAnimator]

@Bruizar

So many cool ideas!
Night incarnate is a very cool find. I've been liking Minister of Pain well enough and Arch fiend has been OK, but maybe this guy can take the place of one of those or maybe the toxic deluge i have in my list. I'll definitely pick some of them up and give it a go.

Strix is so synergistic in so many ways, but my biggest apprehension with blue is that once you go down that path the need to have an Oath Based draw engine gets greatly diminished. So much of what i am trying to accomplish, is to see if i could build a reasonable draw engine that can be semi competitive without needing blue. But like so many things in Legacy, you often get to a point where you run out of good reasons to not just put blue in a deck, cause it's just better. Your idea does keep the concept focused on the engines rather than just cutting things for ponders etc. It reminds me a lot of the BUG Food chain lists, pre banning.

I'll post a list of where i'm at currently in a day or two with the Veteran Explorer shell, i've been digging it. I've just been super busy and haven't had a lot of magic time.

[H]

Nimble Obstructionist lets you stifle things (Dark Depths) without the opponent being able to counter it. It ALSO draws a card when you cycle it for the Stifle. It's a 3/1 flying flash body that you can use to chump or kill creatures. I view this as a competitor to Vendilion Clique.

This doesn't work on Dark Depths the way you'd like. You can Stifle as many triggers as you want, but it will just trigger again and again. I mean, reusable Stifle is nice, but not against Dark Depths in particular.

[bruizar]

@Bruizar

So many cool ideas!
Night incarnate is a very cool find. I've been liking Minister of Pain well enough and Arch fiend has been OK, but maybe this guy can take the place of one of those or maybe the toxic deluge i have in my list. I'll definitely pick some of them up and give it a go.

Strix is so synergistic in so many ways, but my biggest apprehension with blue is that once you go down that path the need to have an Oath Based draw engine gets greatly diminished. So much of what i am trying to accomplish, is to see if i could build a reasonable draw engine that can be semi competitive without needing blue. But like so many things in Legacy, you often get to a point where you run out of good reasons to not just put blue in a deck, cause it's just better. Your idea does keep the concept focused on the engines rather than just cutting things for ponders etc. It reminds me a lot of the BUG Food chain lists, pre banning.

I'll post a list of where i'm at currently in a day or two with the Veteran Explorer shell, i've been digging it. I've just been super busy and haven't had a lot of magic time.

I think you can get away cutting blue, white and/or green are more important. There's not too many targets for FoW anyway, and although Brainstorm is amazing, going more heavily on black gives you some pretty sweet options too. As long as you can overload on hand disruption, I think the deck will have some game, because it is so easy to control the board with all that recursion of removal. In that regard, liliana, heretical healer shines even more because it is a persistent source of discard.


This doesn't work on Dark Depths the way you'd like. You can Stifle as many triggers as you want, but it will just trigger again and again. I mean, reusable Stifle is nice, but not against Dark Depths in particular.

What am I missing here rules wise?

[H]

What am I missing here rules wise?

If we look at Dark Depth's "trigger" here:
"When Dark Depths has no ice counters on it, sacrifice it. If you do, create a legendary 20/20 black Avatar creature token with flying and indestructible named Marit Lage."

Note two things, right off the bat. One, the ability is what is called a State Trigger:

603.8. Some triggered abilities trigger when a game state (such as a player controlling no permanents of a particular card type) is true, rather than triggering when an event occurs. These abilities trigger as soon as the game state matches the condition. They’ll go onto the stack at the next available opportunity. These are called state triggers. (Note that state triggers aren’t the same as state-based actions.) A state-triggered ability doesn’t trigger again until the ability has resolved, has been countered, or has otherwise left the stack. Then, if the object with the ability is still in the same zone and the game state still matches its trigger condition, the ability will trigger again.
Example: A permanent’s ability reads, “Whenever you have no cards in hand, draw a card.” If its controller plays the last card from their hand, the ability will trigger once and won’t trigger again until it has left the stack. If its controller casts a spell that reads “Discard your hand, then draw that many cards,” the ability will trigger during the spell’s resolution because the player’s hand was momentarily empty.

Which means that Dark Depths triggers any time State Based Actions are applied if the condition (no Ice Counters) is true.

The second is that that whole trigger is one paragraph. That means that the entire thing is the trigger. So, were you to Stifle it, the entire ability is countered, meaning they cannot sacrifice it at all. There is no "time" between them sacrificing Dark Depths and getting the token, nor are there distinct triggers differentiating between sacrificing the land and getting the token. It is all, in terms of the game, one action. If the sacrifice it, they get a token; if they don't, they won't get a token. There is no way for them to sacrifice it and not get a token via Stifle.

So, these two facts together mean that if you Stifle the trigger, literally nothing will happen in the game except that instance of the Dark Depths trigger will leave the stack. As soon as any player gets Priority, the State Trigger of Dark Depths is once again true and so will be put on the stack again.

[Borg]

I think this has obvious synergy with Contamination.

[ReAnimator]

I think this has obvious synergy with Contamination.


I'm not sure that's true. You need easy to cast cheap creatures to play and sac each turn to keep a contamination going. Most of the creatures you are going to run in an engine like this are not going to be castable every turn cause of the high CC, also you need your engine up and running to keep Contamination alive, so if your deck is already working why do you need this? Running things like Bloodghast and Bitter Blossom which work on their own are much more reasonable for a Contamination lock than something like Oath that requires lots of extra pieces to get up and running.

[ReAnimator]

I’m finally able to make it out to play for once, so I’m going to give this a go:

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Oath of Ghouls
4 Assassin’s Trophy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Collective Brutality
3 Mausoleum Secrets

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Horror of the Broken Lands
4 Street Wraith
4 Faerie Macabre
2 Plaguecrafter
1 Minister of Pain
1 Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
1 Night Incarnate
1 Fulminator Mage
1 Archfiend of Ilfinir

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
3 Bayou
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Forest
6 Swamp

Not sure on the sideboard yet but this is what I have so far:

SB
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Choke
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Fatal Push
2 Fulminator Mage
1 Night Incarnate
2 surgicals
2 Pithing Needle


I want to try a 1 of Songs of the Damned just for a tutorable mana boost. Archfiend is a great finisher but his cycling is meh and the Minister and Night Incarnate do a more reliable job of being a sweeper, so that’s probably what I’ll cut for it.

I think this is more than enough Sacrifice outlets for Explorer, Therpies, plague Crafters and Collectives and a Tower.

[bruizar]

Bumping this thread with a new version. Giving Kaya a shot

Ghouls n Ghosts

[ 21 land ]
4 x Marsh Flats
3 x Windswept Heath
4 x Scrubland
2x Bayou
1 x Plains
1 x Swamp
4 x Wasteland
1 x Volrath’s Stronghold
1 x Karakas

[ 19 Spells ]
1x Collective Brutality
1x Chains of Mephistopheles
4x Thoughtseize
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Fatal Push / Abrupt Decay
2x Swords to Plowshares
3x Mausoleum Secrets
4x Oath of Ghouls

[ 11 Graveyard ]
3x Faerie Macabre
4x Street Wraith
4x Remorseful Cleric

[ 6 Utility Creatures ]
3x Plaguecrafter
1x Kami of False Hope
1x Fulminator Mage
1x Night Incarnate

[ 3 Planeswalkers ]
1 Liliana, Heretical Healer / Liliana, Defiant Necromancer
2 Kaya, Orzhov Usurper

[ Sideboard ]
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Ground Seal
1 Choke
2 Abrupt Decay / Assassin's Trophy
1 Caustic Caterpillar / Qasali Pridemage / Knight of Autumn
1 Ghost-lit Redeemer
1 Bitterblossom
1 Massacre
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Sylvan Library
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Anafenza, the Foremost
1 Slaughter Pact
1 infernal Reckoning
1 Fatal Push



EDIT: I'm very pleased with the current list and will try it out in a tournament soon. The only problem I have is the lack of 1 drops.

[FTW]

You don't like Veteran Explorer + Cabal Therapy in your 1cc spot?

If you need a 1 drop in a Junk deck with a creature engine... Birds of Paradise? People have forgotten about that card since DRS made it obsolete, but green midrange decks want to get ahead on mana.

[bruizar]

I'm leaning towards Mirri's Guile for the one drop. Something that helps with consistency. Explorer is a different plan imo. I feel like this deck plays more like pox than like nicfit.

[kinda]

If I get to play Tuesday, thinking of running oath again. Would need to buy/borrow hymn and plague. Suggestions?


4 hymn to tourach
4 collective brutality
4 cabal therapy
2 phyrexian arena
2 sylvan library
3 oath of ghouls

3 death's shadow
3 Green sun's zenith
1 varolz, the scar-striped
1 birds of paradise
1 veteran Explorer
1 reclamation sage
1 dryad arbor
1 kalonian hydra
1 scavenging ooze
3 plaguecrafter
4 faerie macabre

4 dark ritual
4 ghost quarter
3 verdant catacombs
3 Marsh flats
2 overgrown tomb
1 godless shrine
1 forest
4 swamp
1 phyrexian Tower

SB:
3 fulminator mage
3 natural order
1 tireless tacker
1 gaddock teeg
1 terrastodon
1 progenitus
3 abrupt decay
2 minister of pain

[bruizar]

How did it go? It is a diff direction than I would go for but curious to learn about your experience

[kinda]

How did it go? It is a diff direction than I would go for but curious to learn about your experience

I couldn't find plaguecrafter unfortunately so cut them for one minister of pain (list was 62). - 1 godless shrine +1 llanowar wastes. In the sb - 1 teeg - 2 minister +1 spore frog +2 engineered plague.

Went 2-2, deck felt strong though! Beat lands and high tide. Lost a very close g3 vs bug control to my own arena with a 15/15 varolz on the table. Lost bad to eldrazi, matchup seems horrible...plaguecrafter would have helped though.

I picked up two street wraith, no clue why I wasn't running them. Need to find 2/3 plague crafter.

[pow22]

If I get to play Tuesday, thinking of running oath again. Would need to buy/borrow hymn and plague. Suggestions?

IMHO you're a little more focused on the Rock plan than the Oath plan. I guess the main question is whether Oath of Ghouls actually provides that much value in this deck? You don't have *that* many ways to put creatures in your own 'yard in the early game other than Street Wraith and Faerie Macabre. In the fair match-ups, Hymns and Collective Brutality (as creature kill) are going to tend to fill your opponent's graveyard with creatures potentially triggering Oath for them. Having to discarding and recur Faerie Macabre to keep opponent off Oath feels weak to me. (Ooze seems great though!)

Maybe Oath would work better as a sideboard plan against removal heavy decks like Grixis Control? I think saw something somewhere about RB Goblins running the card in the board specifically for the Grixis match-up. Sylvan Library and Phyrexian Arena are already insanely good vs Grixis Control though and it's possible you could outgrind Grixis with two copies of each and zero Oaths.


I've been playing around with an Esper cycling build with the aim of getting value out of a turn two Oath. No idea if it's remotely viable, but I figure it's worth running Force if we're planning to durdle hard and Plow seems like the right removal spell for an Oath of Ghouls deck.


4 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
2 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Scrubland
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Bojuka Bog

4 Oath of Ghouls
2 Astral Slide

4 Curator of Mysteries
2 Architects of Will
2 Street Wraith
1 Archfiend of Ifnir

2 Mausoleum Wanderer
3 Stitcher's Supplier
3 Baleful Strix
2 Plaguecrafter
1 Aethersnipe
1 Fulminator Mage

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Cabal Therapy

SB:
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Flusterstorm
2 Disenchant
2 Meddling Mage
1 Ghost-Lit Redeemer
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Null Rod
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Plague Mare


Stitcher seems a bit weak, but should help to dig for the silver bullets -- Aethersnipe, Plaguecrafter and Fulminator -- while helping to keep our graveyard more stocked than opponent's. Love the idea of Night Incarnate, but it kills most of my guys and not sure what to cut to cram it in. (Maybe -1 Astral Slide, +1 Night Incarnate?)

I picked up a playset of Mausoleum Secrets in paper, but I think it might be too low-impact in this kind of grindy deck. It really sucks that it can only fetch black cards. I might try it in a mono-black Helm/Leyline Painter/Grindstone deck though :P.

[Mr Miagi]

Great brews, but just for my own understanding. Does this deck work without Oath?

[bruizar]

I'm a big proponent of white because of Kaya, Swords to Plowshares and Remorseful Cleric. Kaya is a lot better than it looks and you can one shot opponents easily with it.


Great brews, but just for my own understanding. Does this deck work without Oath?

Depends on the matchup but graveyard hate is very strong since the most broken "fair" creatures almost all rely on the graveyard (delve, pteramander, snapcaster), and then there's delver which can easily be blocked by Remorseful Cleric. Once you do find (street wraith/Mausoleum Secrets) and resolve (discard) an Oath, it's trivial to establish a lock.

[kinda]

Great brews, but just for my own understanding. Does this deck work without Oath?

Well...you won't be able to combo out without it right?

@pow22: The casual legacy deck thread might be more appropriate? Link: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?56-Cavius-Casual-and-Budget-Forum.

[ScatmanX]

@pow22: The casual legacy deck thread might be more appropriate? Link: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?56-Cavius-Casual-and-Budget-Forum.

Has to log in after a few years of inactivity just to laugh at this.
Thanks Patrick =)

[pow22]

@pow22: The casual legacy deck thread might be more appropriate? Link: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?56-Cavius-Casual-and-Budget-Forum.

Savage :).

I'll have you know I'm undefeated in the Tourney Practice room online with that brew. (Sample size n=1. Plaguecrafter turns out to be good against Show and Tell => Emrakul.)

[kinda]

Savage :).

I'll have you know I'm undefeated in the Tourney Practice room online with that brew. (Sample size n=1. Plaguecrafter turns out to be good against Show and Tell => Emrakul.)

I couldn't resist :smile:.

Plaguecrafter seems strong a lot of the time. I ordered them today...not sure if I'll get them Tuesday but hope so!

[bruizar]

Probably not good enough but I wanted to mention Karador, Ghost Chieftain. Fits the colors of the build i proposed earlier, and does exactly what this deck wants to do. However, I'm afraid the mana cost is too high even with the cost reduction clause.

[kinda]

Probably not good enough but I wanted to mention Karador, Ghost Chieftain. Fits the colors of the build i proposed earlier, and does exactly what this deck wants to do. However, I'm afraid the mana cost is too high even with the cost reduction clause.

Isn't oath just better pretty much? Costs two and in the most optimal scenario ghost costs three. Ghost's effect is better but only slightly I think.

I'm leaning towards running this tomorrow...between this and digeridoo. I have plaguecrafters now and street wraith. I'm thinking -2 library -1 minister -2 ? +2 wraith +3 plague catcher. Still no clue if eldrazi can be me made winnable...seems to be a theme with my decks right now. Going to put 4 engineered plagues in my board as dnt/tribal seem terrible too.

[bruizar]

Isn't oath just better pretty much? Costs two and in the most optimal scenario ghost costs three. Ghost's effect is better but only slightly I think.

I'm leaning towards running this tomorrow...between this and digeridoo. I have plaguecrafters now and street wraith. I'm thinking -2 library -1 minister -2 ? +2 wraith +3 plague catcher. Still no clue if eldrazi can be me made winnable...seems to be a theme with my decks right now. Going to put 4 engineered plagues in my board as dnt/tribal seem terrible too.

Oath is much better but Karador is different. I think Karador competes with Meren of Nel Toth more than with Oath, and Meren is better.

If you need to stop the bleeding quickly against Eldrazi you can side in a Peacekeeper or go for the Frog/Kami (difficult with chalice 1) lock until you can grind out the lands/cards/creatures with fulminator and plaguecrafter.

[kinda]

Oath is much better but Karador is different. I think Karador competes with Meren of Nel Toth more than with Oath, and Meren is better.

If you need to stop the bleeding quickly against Eldrazi you can side in a Peacekeeper or go for the Frog/Kami (difficult with chalice 1) lock until you can grind out the lands/cards/creatures with fulminator and plaguecrafter.

Good shout, I'll maindeck frog this week I think. Chalice would stop me though. I'm not in white but very tempted to for Palace jailer.

[bruizar]

Good shout, I'll maindeck frog this week I think. Chalice would stop me though. I'm not in white but very tempted to for Palace jailer.

Give in to your temptation :-) white brings so much juice to this deck. If you stay in green don't forget to bring decays for chalice

[kinda]

Give in to your temptation :-) white brings so much juice to this deck. If you stay in green don't forget to bring decays for chalice

Got out of work too late tonight :cry:. I'll keep it together for next week.

[Inkfathom]

I only played a couple of games with this deck, but what do you guys think of a sword of light and shadow (with or without stoneforge)? It gains us life we can use to loop street wraith, acts like an oath when we don’t have one, and helps us close out the game more quickly.

[bruizar]

I only played a couple of games with this deck, but what do you guys think of a sword of light and shadow (with or without stoneforge)? It gains us life we can use to loop street wraith, acts like an oath when we don’t have one, and helps us close out the game more quickly.

I like this suggestion, will try to find a slot. L&S does a really good imitation of F&I by reproducing the draw with street wraith and the removal with raising a dead plague crafter. I’m wondering if adding a SB jitte or batterskull and 2 SFM make for sufficient non-graveyard dependent transformational plan.

[kinda]

I only played a couple of games with this deck, but what do you guys think of a sword of light and shadow (with or without stoneforge)? It gains us life we can use to loop street wraith, acts like an oath when we don’t have one, and helps us close out the game more quickly.

Id still prefer sofi or jitte. Don't want to be overly gy dependent.

[kinda]

Dark rit into Ashiok into self Mill seems good here...

[jhhdk]

People about Dark Ritual, wouldn't Songs of the Damned be better suited for this deck? (I'll just sneak back into lurk mode).

[kinda]

People about Dark Ritual, wouldn't Songs of the Damned be better suited for this deck? (I'll just sneak back into lurk mode).

Nope, won't be able to turn one Ashiok.

[kinda]

Tried ashiok tonight...1-3 but lost to elves twice which seems close to unwinnable. Every match I lost went to g3, beat bomberman.



3 bitterblossom
1 ophiomancer
3 contamination
4 ashiok, dream render
3 oath of ghouls
2 asylum visitor
2 plaguecrafter
2 abyssal persecutor
2 Street wraith
2 shriekmaw
1 grave titan
1 tombstalker

3 cabal therapy
3 hymn to tourach
3 collective brutality
1 umezawa's jitte

4 dark ritual
4 chrome mox
10 swamp
4 ghost quarter
1 high market
1 desert
1 phyrexian tower

SB:
4 leyline of the void
4 engineered plague
4 thoughtseize
2 fatal push
1 minister of pain

[schweinefettmann]

Tried ashiok tonight...1-3 but lost to elves twice which seems close to unwinnable. Every match I lost went to g3, beat bomberman.



3 bitterblossom
1 ophiomancer
3 contamination
4 ashiok, dream render
3 oath of ghouls
2 asylum visitor
2 plaguecrafter
2 abyssal persecutor
2 Street wraith
2 shriekmaw
1 grave titan
1 tombstalker

3 cabal therapy
3 hymn to tourach
3 collective brutality
1 umezawa's jitte

4 dark ritual
4 chrome mox
10 swamp
4 ghost quarter
1 high market
1 desert
1 phyrexian tower

SB:
4 leyline of the void
4 engineered plague
4 thoughtseize
2 fatal push
1 minister of pain


This looks interesting... but ghost quarter? On the off-chance you were thinking it, it doesn't actually work with ashiok, 'cuz ashiok specifically says effects that opponents control can't cause them to search, and you control the ghost quarter.

Also, tombstalker seems to be a non-bo with the rest of the deck. And no faerie macabre? it exiles opposing creatures in their grave, and lets you recycle them over and over. It's probably a good idea not to rely too much on ashiok for all graveyard exiling effects.

[kinda]

This looks interesting... but ghost quarter? On the off-chance you were thinking it, it doesn't actually work with ashiok, 'cuz ashiok specifically says effects that opponents control can't cause them to search, and you control the ghost quarter.

Also, tombstalker seems to be a non-bo with the rest of the deck. And no faerie macabre? it exiles opposing creatures in their grave, and lets you recycle them over and over. It's probably a good idea not to rely too much on ashiok for all graveyard exiling effects.

Thx, yes I've learned gq doesn't work :cry:.

TS works well with Ashiok actually, you just choose your non creature cards to delve.

[Scorched29]

I used to play oath of ghouls back in the early days of legacy and scored some nice tournament wins. The most prominent being the nationals (sweden). I am quite happy to see people still tinkering with this really awesome enchantment :). I used BR opting for control with instant critters via Aether vial. Chittering rats and sting scourger were key to softlock the cards they drew/played and feed them to cabal therapy. I also used greater gargadon to sacrifice whatever I wanted back, which also served as a 2ndary win. Hardlock was magus of the moon.I even played around with a toolbox variant featuring a playset of imperial recruiter. I’ve been out of the loop for a few years but with mtg arena I’ve been returning there and Priest of the forgotten gods and plaguecrafter look like nice powerful Cards for this Deck. Anyway, happy to read this thread and hope I’ve might added some food for thought.
A

[Koplinchen]

Great impulse Schorchrd 29!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk