Gerry Thompson Protesting Worlds

[Mr. Safety]

Hi all, just wondering if anybody had thoughts one way or another about Gerry Thompson sitting out Worlds to protest WOTC/professional magic.

EDIT: In the spirit of trying to be objective I completely missed the boat, lol. I admire Gerry for what he did, and it had a real cost.
EDIT: This seems like a pretty steep cost to me, something I would likely have a hard time doing. Credit to Gerry for having the courage to do so.

Some have mentioned that he's just doing it for personal gain, and to a small extent he is (he's a pro magic player.) Overall, I think it's a positive statement, but I've seen some vitriol over it as well (just trying to get media attention for his own gain.)

Thoughts? Will it bring attention to potential change? Will it flounder?

Link: http://www.kotaku.co.uk/2018/09/23/pro-magic-player-protests-world-championships-hoping-to-change-the-pro-scene

[H]

Hi all, just wondering if anybody had thoughts one way or another about Gerry Thompson sitting out Worlds to protest WOTC/professional magic.

I don't see anything wrong with what he did or what he said. He is free to express his views, which he did. He is free to attend, or not attend, at his own discretion. I haven't seen (not that I have hunted hard, because honestly it doesn't effect me) any refutation of the facts he presented. It's also been a rather "well known fact" that Organized Play is a bit of a joke, there have been numerous articles and other things written that I can't find off the top of my head right now, so his post didn't surprise me.


It seems interesting, with several potential benefits for him that might offset the missed chance at winning worlds:
1) Media attention, which can help support his projects
2) A generalized social-justice-warrior support from a dedicated group of magic pros, especially on social media

Alternatively, he didn't get a chance to play Worlds after earning a spot there (which isn't easy.)

So, is the implication of point 1 that he is doing this then for his own benefit?

I mean, of course he is, he is a Profession Magic Player. He wants to see changes to Professional Magic. Does it give him added exposure, to make a "grand" and public sacrifice? Of course it does, that's why he did it. Would you have listened at all, had he not put his money where his mouth is?

I'm not at all sure where you are trying to go with point 2. Again, Gerry is a Profession Magic Player, so him "speaking" for Profession Magic Players isn't any different than if he was a McDonald's worker, detailing why and how he feels the company and his job could be improved. What's wrong with that? Should he just not give a shit at all and walk away (like numerous other "Pros" have)? Would that be better? How so? Why is his criticism to be seen as a bad thing? Why resort to the straw-man of simply labeling his concerns "social-justice-warrior"ing, which I can't imagine is any less than an attempt to dismiss his assertions?

You get a job. You enjoy your job, but it's not perfect. You come up with ways to make your job better. You tell people about how you think it could be better and amplify your message with a sacrifice. Get called a "social-justice-warrior" (whatever that is supposed to imply) and dismissed? Again, what you rather he had done? Shut up and quit? How does that make Magic any better? How does that make Gerry any better?

I am genuinely curious about the critique here, because I don't follow...

[Ace/Homebrew]

https://i.imgflip.com/2imtzc.jpg

[Mr. Safety]

I am genuinely curious about the critique here, because I don't follow...

It wasn't meant to be a critique at all, actually, just a way to open up discussion. I was afraid I would come across as too much in favor of it and not be objective enough. I actually admire what he did. It definitely took courage, and there was a definite cost to him, a cost most of us wouldn't be willing to pay (at least I would be hard pressed to pay it.)

Sorry it was misleading. I'll edit the OP.

[H]

It wasn't meant to be a critique at all, actually, just a way to open up discussion. I was afraid I would come across as too much in favor of it and not be objective enough. I actually admire what he did. It definitely took courage, and there was a definite cost to him, a cost most of us wouldn't be willing to pay (at least I would be hard pressed to pay it.)

Sorry it was misleading. I'll edit the OP.

It's all good. I clearly didn't understand the tone, which was no doubt partially my fault. Probably was a knee-jerk reaction on my part because of the general default position (too often, by my estimation) of using the term "social-justice-warrior" as a pejorative. Not to mention, it isn't as if Gerry is even after "social justice," he is actually after what he considers "fair wages."

[Mr. Safety]

Agreed.

[Brainstorm Ape]

Guy is fucking cooked if he thinks WotC will do anything beyond token gestures.

Magic broadcasting is about marketing the product; it's not a marketable product itself. The game, while fun to play, is pretty shitty to watch for all but the most invested players. While Wizards could certainly improve coverage, even professional media groups, like MTV and ESPN, failed to make Magic watchable to the general public. And one of the lowest priorities in terms of making Magic a better viewing experience is better compensation for a bunch of generic nerds devoid of style or personality (to be fair, Magic as a game doesn't allow for much of any unique traits to shine through and the current social climate is pretty stifling towards individuals).

And what would WotC get for having better paid pros? That they would be all smiles on a Twitch stream that pulls five percent of some guy streaming whatever flavor of the month shit-shooter from his parent's basement? Seems like a lot of money for not a lot of tangible return. I can bullshit pretty well, but there's no fucking way I could pitch this sort of expense to Hasbro suits. Especially the same suits cutting corners at every turn in making the actual product.

There's not even a whole lot of low-hanging fruit here in his complaints or suggestions for improvement.

Managing the pro-circuit, and organized play in general, seems to be beyond the replacement (if there even was one) for Helene Bergerot. I can understand getting miffed about not knowing when your schedule is, or payouts being uncertain, but that's a reality for most of the working world. Your shifts get changed, your company switches up benefits, etc. Be glad you're playing a card game, not doing real labor.

Promoting the players a la SCG isn't going to be a winner either; I know I stopped giving a shit about their broadcasts when they would show off grinders in the feature matches instead of cool decks. I want to see Painter, Post, and whatnot...not some dude with Grinder Delver going for Barnacle of the Year. I don't have any serious data, but I'd assume most viewers would be in agreement.

And a unilateral protest seem pretty dumb decades upon decades after the idea of organized labor and collective bargaining have been around. Well, unless you're just gunning for publicity and more patreon bux. He's probably gonna do just fine on that front.

[Parcher]

SCG also has a history of promoting players who are later suspended for cheating. A lot of them. Not their fault of course, but doesnt make it an enticing proposition for others.

[Echelon]

So basically what he's saying is "WotC should hire me to play their game for them"..? Or "I've proven to be very good at the game, therefor I deserve to get paid to play it"..?

I'm just going off the Kotaku piece here, but this seems very selfindulgent to me. No one forces him to play MtG, he's free to get an actual job. I'd love to play (video)games day in, day out for a living but I hardly expect anyone to want to pay me for it.

[kombatkiwi]

So basically what he's saying is "WotC should hire me to play their game for them"..? Or "I've proven to be very good at the game, therefor I deserve to get paid to play it"..?

I'm just going off the Kotaku piece here, but this seems very selfindulgent to me. No one forces him to play MtG, he's free to get an actual job. I'd love to play (video)games day in, day out for a living but I hardly expect anyone to want to pay me for it.

He threw away +$12,500 EV just from not playing in worlds so his primary concern clearly isn't just "give me more money", this characterization of the situation is missing the point.
There is so much wizards could be doing to improve the situation for players without necessarily spending a bunch of money, just by being more organized and making better decisions.
The reddit post goes more in depth than the Kotaku article

[Mr. Safety]

He threw away +$12,500 EV just from not playing in worlds so his primary concern clearly isn't just "give me more money", this characterization of the situation is missing the point.
There is so much wizards could be doing to improve the situation for players without necessarily spending a bunch of money, just by being more organized and making better decisions.
The reddit post goes more in depth than the Kotaku article

Yes, I think he's really just calling for a better organized system with more incentive, or even less disincentive, to be a pro player.

[bruizar]

There's a lot we don't see, nor hear, about how magic is being run and what the considerations are. Companies cannot be completely transparent, especially in a game that has a community as vocal, emotional and opinionated as Magic. I'm not sure if I agree with the way Gerry Thompson made his point, it's a rather negative approach, but his intent is good. He wants Magic to be able to compete with games like Poker or Hearthstone, that it is taken serious.

Maybe Magic should learn from Nike and somehow use Gerry Thompson's deviant Kaepernick-style move to its advantage in its marketing and social media campaigns and show that they care about the voice of the community.

[phonics]

There's a lot we don't see, nor hear, about how magic is being run and what the considerations are. Companies cannot be completely transparent, especially in a game that has a community as vocal, emotional and opinionated as Magic. I'm not sure if I agree with the way Gerry Thompson made his point, it's a rather negative approach, but his intent is good. He wants Magic to be able to compete with games like Poker or Hearthstone, that it is taken serious.

Maybe Magic should learn from Nike and somehow use Gerry Thompson's deviant Kaepernick-style move to its advantage in its marketing and social media campaigns and show that they care about the voice of the community.

I assume he was just frustrated enough by the complacency of WOTC that he was willing to go this far to make sure his message was heard.


Here I was hoping someone would mention Kaepernick and follow up by suggesting Gerry attend, but take a knee during the player meeting or something.

I think they banned him from the venue after he told them what he was doing.

[Michael Keller]

So basically what he's saying is "WotC should hire me to play their game for them"..? Or "I've proven to be very good at the game, therefor I deserve to get paid to play it"..?

I'm just going off the Kotaku piece here, but this seems very self-indulgent to me. No one forces him to play MtG, he's free to get an actual job. I'd love to play (video) games day in, day out for a living but I hardly expect anyone to want to pay me for it.

This more than a million times over.

[mistercakes]

You really only have two ways to justify paying somebody more money.

1) advertising. (mtg is poor at this.) Paying more money to "pros" is very unlikely to make it more interesting and generate more eyeballs.

2) sells more product (not very likely that I'll be spending more money because the pros get more).

If he can make a case for either of those then he might have something to stand on.

[Hopo]

This more than a million times over.

This sounds like you people only understand one motive to human actions: personal gain.

[Echelon]

This sounds like you people only understand one motive to human actions: personal gain.

Unfortunately personal gain is the ulterior motive for most that claim to act on another. Such is the curse of mankind.

[Hopo]

Unfortunately personal gain is the ulterior motive for most that claim to act on another. Such is the curse of mankind.

So mentioning that is about as relevant as stating that Gerry did that to get laid or to metabolize.

[Echelon]

So mentioning that is about as relevant as stating that Gerry did that to get laid or to metabolize.

I disagree. Acting out and trying to cause an uproar in an attempt to change a system for purely selfish reasons isn't something I can get behind in this specific context.

[Humphrey]

This more than a million times over.

playing the game on tournaments is not just playing the game. its playing the game to win prices and make a profit when your are good at it. so that argument falls flat. especially since attending tournaments costs a lot with travel cost etc. and the grind for points behind it.

[CptHaddock]

There is some solid gold chuddery going on in this thread. He says



Wizards of the Coast (WotC) does not pay professional players a living wage. This, in and of itself, is not a requirement. However, if the goal is to sell the dream of playing on the Pro Tour, there should be something in place to make that worth achieving. Between qualifying becoming more and more difficult, especially with the goal posts continually changing, and the lack of reward at the top, the message currently being sent is “don’t waste your time.”


It's even not even buried in his post, it's literally the first sentence you read when you read his reddit post.

[Echelon]

playing the game on tournaments is not just playing the game. its playing the game to win prices and make a profit when your are good at it. so that argument falls flat. especially since attending tournaments costs a lot with travel cost etc. and the grind for points behind it.

You'd imagine that at some point he'd weigh the pros and cons of being a MtG "pro" vs. having a normal job and figure "Why bother". No one forces him to travel from tournament to tournament, so what's keeping him? It's not that WotC holds a gun to his head whilst saying "You shall travel from tournament to tournament or else your hamster gets to sleep with the fishes". He decides he wants to be an MtG pro and apparently that means WotC'd have to pay him to be one.

@CptHaddock: "This in and of itself isn't a requirement", and the rest of the post boils down to "but they should and while we're at it everyone playing MtG should know who I am".

I'm sure he's a perfectly nice guy and I have nothing against him, I just don't agree with him on this point.

[H]

You'd imagine that at some point he'd weigh the pros and cons of being a MtG "pro" vs. having a normal job and figure "Why bother". No one forces him to travel from tournament to tournament, so what's keeping him? It's not that WotC holds a gun to his head whilst saying "You shall travel from tournament to tournament or else your hamster gets to sleep with the fishes". He decides he wants to be an MtG pro and apparently that means WotC'd have to pay him to be one.

He literally does this in the third and fourth sentence literally quoted by CptHaddock above:


However, if the goal is to sell the dream of playing on the Pro Tour, there should be something in place to make that worth achieving. Between qualifying becoming more and more difficult, especially with the goal posts continually changing, and the lack of reward at the top, the message currently being sent is “don’t waste your time.”

Man, the reading comprehension on display here is at an all-time low, even for this site.

His point is that Wizards desires there to be "Pro Players" but fails to deliver pay that in Gerry's opinion justifies the effort. The point isn't just "pay me more" the point is that in Gerry's opinion, if Wizards desires Pro Players to stick with the game, it'd probably be wise to make the incentive greater. He's probably right. And Wizards won't do anything, because why pay people more if you don't have to? Until more people see things Gerry's way and then they can't get Pro Players at "bargain prices." And then if they still want "Pro Players" they'll have to pay more. Gerry is engaging in persuasive argument to advocate for what he feels is "fair wages." What is wrong with that?

[ReAnimator]

Knee jerk Sourcers going to source.

Seriously people read. Just read, as opposed to having blow hard reactions to things you are not comprehending and misrepresenting. You are making yourselves look foolish.

[kombatkiwi]

Unfortunately personal gain is the ulterior motive for most that claim to act on another. Such is the curse of mankind.


https://i2.wp.com/www.accredited-times.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Fedora-1.jpg?resize=696%2C510&ssl=1

[Mr. Safety]

https://i2.wp.com/www.accredited-times.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Fedora-1.jpg?resize=696%2C510&ssl=1

If neckbeard glamour shots don't pull at your heartstrings, nothing will.

[rufus]

...
Seriously people read. Just read, as opposed to having blow hard reactions to things you are not comprehending and misrepresenting. You are making yourselves look foolish.

It seems like there are a bunch of people who are saying "Gerry T is right to be unhappy" and a bunch of other people who say "if he's so unhappy, why doesn't he just do something else?" that are basically talking past each other without disagreeing all that much.

[H]

It seems like there are a bunch of people who are saying "Gerry T is right to be unhappy" and a bunch of other people who say "if he's so unhappy, why doesn't he just do something else?" that are basically talking past each other without disagreeing all that much.

He did decide to do something else: he didn't attend the event he was qualified for and instead made a Reddit post.

And the people saying "why doesn't he just do something else?" miss the point of him trying to change the work environment. Of course he can just quit, but that doesn't help him or anyone else do the job, or make the job better. Why is it so bad that he wants to make Professional Magic better? Because he would benefit from it? Of course he would, that's why he wants to change it because he wants to do the job, just wants to feel fairly compensated.

If you had ideas to make your current job better, would you just quit? Or would you try telling your employer that you think there is a better way to do things? It's a bit sad that Gerry felt he had to sacrifice attending the event to be heard, but that doesn't mean he is wrong in what he points out.

[kombatkiwi]

He did decide to do something else: he didn't attend the event he was qualified for and instead made a Reddit post.

And the people saying "why doesn't he just do something else?" miss the point of him trying to change the work environment. Of course he can just quit, but that doesn't help him or anyone else do the job, or make the job better. Why is it so bad that he wants to make Professional Magic better? Because he would benefit from it? Of course he would, that's why he wants to change it because he wants to do the job, just wants to feel fairly compensated.

If you had ideas to make your current job better, would you just quit? Or would you try telling your employer that you think there is a better way to do things? It's a bit sad that Gerry felt he had to sacrifice attending the event to be heard, but that doesn't mean he is wrong in what he points out.

How are your posts in the other thread so bad but here you're 100% on the mark

[rufus]

...
If you had ideas to make your current job better, would you just quit? Or would you try telling your employer that you think there is a better way to do things? It's a bit sad that Gerry felt he had to sacrifice attending the event to be heard, but that doesn't mean he is wrong in what he points out.

If I wanted more money and the employer refused, I might. A big shortcoming of the rant is that it doesn't give WotC any incentive to do what Gerry wants or illustrate how the community would benefit. Really, this business of pulling out at the last minute to get attention illustrates precisely why it's not in WotC's interest to excessively promote players.

[Michael Keller]

playing the game on tournaments is not just playing the game. its playing the game to win prices and make a profit when your are good at it. so that argument falls flat. especially since attending tournaments costs a lot with travel cost etc. and the grind for points behind it.

No, it doesn't "fall flat."

Choosing to drop your personal responsibilities and play "Magic: the Gathering" as a profession (using that term very loosely within the context of all this, because there is no such thing as a "professional" Magic player) doesn't make you all of the sudden someone who is entitled to receiving steady pay or incentives from another entity without contract - because you opt to make the choice to play Magic cards. No one is forcing your hand to do it. These players are not being paid at-will; they've made a conscious decision to play Magic: the Gathering tournaments full-time, travel to events and play in them on their own dime, and they should, as such, finance their own trips to these events. Call it whatever you want: it's as close to gambling as there is.

This is the ambiguous area that people just don't get: Magic is not a game where you're going to make a serious profit playing it, regardless of who you are. These people possibly have secondary jobs or other means of income that ensure they can support themselves, but make no mistake: no one is opening a door and escorting them into a Top 8 of a given event by rolling out the red carpet so they can pay their bills or finance their next trip. That's a very dangerous situation for anyone aspiring to be a professional in any endeavor to be in, and in fact, is completely reckless. It's the same thing essentially that befalls regular poker players: they could literally just quit their 9-5 and call themselves a "professional" poker player, when there's really nothing anyone can say about it because, well, that's what they say they are and that's that.

But it isn't, because a steady source of income is no guarantee.

The ambiguous dissemination of this is what defines a Magic player and someone with a regular, full-time job as being classified as a "professional." The major difference is that there are no guarantees you're coming home with a paycheck being the former of the two. Just because you're good at something doesn't mean you're entitled to whatever you want from whomever you want.

Unless - such as in this case - you feel like the world owes you a living because you opt to play Magic cards as opposed to going out and getting a real job.

[Mr. Safety]

If I wanted more money and the employer refused, I might. A big shortcoming of the rant is that it doesn't give WotC any incentive to do what Gerry wants or illustrate how the community would benefit. Really, this business of pulling out at the last minute to get attention illustrates precisely why it's not in WotC's interest to excessively promote players.

It's the same argument for 'why kneel during the anthem? It just makes them hate you.' Protests accomplish one specific goal: drawing attention to a specific issue. When someone protests, at their own personal expense, it can be a powerful statement. If there isn't any cost it can be trivialized, even ignored. When the cost is significant it gets attention. If there was no personal cost it would have been seen as grandstanding or whining, not a real protest. No pain, no gain.

Why did he do it at the last minute? Because it had maximum effect. Worlds would have to carry on with only 23 players (he specifically states this) and people would have to ask 'why?'

[Mr. Safety]

Unless - such as in this case - you feel like the world owes you a living because you opt to play Magic cards as opposed to going out and getting a real job.

What if WOTC is unfairly taking advantage of promoting 'pro players'? Those pro players garner support from the community and give free publicity to WOTC. It's not outrageous for them to make it somewhat more palatable for the pros to be motivated to be pros. I'm not saying a living wage, but for fuck's sake, SOMETHING. I think Gerry would be happy with fewer disincentives than with having more incentives (like making qualifying last longer than it currently does.) Just an example, what if after someone qualifies for the pro tour they don't have to continually qualify each year but it instead lasts for 2 years, or even more. That at least takes the pressure of grinding tournaments off their shoulders and allows them to pick and choose (reducing costs) which tournaments they attend. Hell, that doesn't cost WOTC a penny.

[kombatkiwi]

The podcast with Gerry and Cedric (uploaded last 1-2 days) also goes into a lot of detail if you want an additional explanation of his thoughts

[Mr. Safety]

Do you have a link?

[kombatkiwi]

Do you have a link?

https://soundcloud.com/thecedricphillipspodcast/mtg-926

[Mr. Safety]

https://soundcloud.com/thecedricphillipspodcast/mtg-926

Thanks.

[Barook]

Thing is that pro players that grind the formats (especially Standard) is exactly what WotC doesn't want since in their eyes, solved format = boring = less pack sales. They mess with tournament data for the very same reason. While pro players promote the product, WotC sure isn't interested in paying a living wage to people who fuck with their general business model.

[rufus]

Thing is that pro players that grind the formats (especially Standard) is exactly what WotC doesn't want since in their eyes, solved format = boring = less pack sales. They mess with tournament data for the very same reason. While pro players promote the product, WotC sure isn't interested in paying a living wage to people who fuck with their general business model.

You really think it's that personal, and not just indifference?

[Barook]

You really think it's that personal, and not just indifference?
Nah, mainly it's because WotC is way too stingy, but they certainly don't see incentive to pay people trying to crack the format more than already do.