Shocklands

[Mr. Safety]

I've been messing around quite a bit lately, building decks that have the spells it needs but lacking in true dual lands. Is the format in a place where shocklands, as a budget option, could actually work? Even the most aggressive of matchups are rarely won based on 2 damage you do to yourself from fetching a shockland. I know each game is unique, and plenty of races still happen in legacy. However, without a true aggro deck (Delver variants and Maverick are the closest to a 'true' agro deck in legacy, IMHO) in the format, does that 2 life matter? Burn is still a deck, but fairly fringe, and giving up one rarely seen matchup is something I'd be willing to accept in order to play some high-powered spells. I've evaluated my collection lately, and I have tons of competitive cards to build good decks. Then I remember that even 1 dual land is $100 at a minimum, and that's for a heavily played Plateau (the least expensive one, IIRC.) It's really only a matter of time before the dual lands are out of reach for even old timers like me to buy or trade into. I'd like to get some objective discussion going on how bad shocklands are in the format as budget substitutes for true duals.

Are shocklands really a deal-breaker when it comes to legacy deck building?

[PirateKing]

Depends on the deck I'd think. Would you play Daze?

[umbowta]

[Heavily biased opinion] Shocklands are absolute trash that add up to nothing more than a slap in the face to anyone who's long time favorite format is the unloved bastard child of the Reserved list. I'd sooner play Chinese fakes at unsanctioned events than bend over and take two from a land. [/Heavily biased opinion]

[kinda]

Of course you can...I run shock lands or rainbow lands almost every week and prize pretty regularly (3-1 prizes). It's certainly no insurmountable hurdle. Sometimes the 2-4 life in the game does cause you to lose of course but if you're OK with this go for it. I wouldn't run them at a gp though or other 5+ round event. My "competitive" deck is reanimator running 4 gemstone mine/4 city of brass/4 mana confluence/2 undiscovered paradise. The 5 colours has benefits too of course to help offset the downsides.

[Megadeus]

I honestly would rather run a fetch mana base with heavy emphasis on basics and supplement duals for fast lands. I think the problem is that some of the more powerful card in legacy want basic land types, like Knight of the Reliquary, Daze, Massacre stuff like that. Also in my personal meta blood moonmoon can be pretty prevalent at times. All that said, I've had decent success playing fast lands

[kinda]

I honestly would rather run a fetch mana base with heavy emphasis on basics and supplement duals for fast lands. I think the problem is that some of the more powerful card in legacy want basic land types, like Knight of the Reliquary, Daze, Massacre stuff like that. Also in my personal meta blood moonmoon can be pretty prevalent at times. All that said, I've had decent success playing fast lands

Good point, it's not like you take a list and just swap the duals for shocks. Depends on the deck etc.

[Sonofastoic]

Just toss 4x Death's Shadow in your list and suddenly your deck is tier 1! But in all seriousness, #retweet of what kinda said. Maybe it costs you a game or two, but you can still have a solid list with shocks/rainbows!

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

[Megadeus]

Good point, it's not like you take a list and just swap the duals for shocks. Depends on the deck etc.

You do have to take into account that you probably can't play certain things that require specific land types whichwhich sucks, but I've played blue moon recently too a 3-1 with Spirebluff Canals and I played a UB Jace Vryns Prodigy deck with Goryos Vengeance and Darkslick Shores recentlyrecently. It's not ooptimal, but locally or works

[umbowta]

I honestly would rather run a fetch mana base with heavy emphasis on basics and supplement duals for fast lands.
Nice. Setting aside my bias, I agree. This is actually how I approach my Modern manabases.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I've been messing around quite a bit lately, building decks that have the spells it needs but lacking in true dual lands. Is the format in a place where shocklands, as a budget option, could actually work? Even the most aggressive of matchups are rarely won based on 2 damage you do to yourself from fetching a shockland. I know each game is unique, and plenty of races still happen in legacy. However, without a true aggro deck (Delver variants and Maverick are the closest to a 'true' agro deck in legacy, IMHO) in the format, does that 2 life matter? Burn is still a deck, but fairly fringe, and giving up one rarely seen matchup is something I'd be willing to accept in order to play some high-powered spells. I've evaluated my collection lately, and I have tons of competitive cards to build good decks. Then I remember that even 1 dual land is $100 at a minimum, and that's for a heavily played Plateau (the least expensive one, IIRC.) It's really only a matter of time before the dual lands are out of reach for even old timers like me to buy or trade into. I'd like to get some objective discussion going on how bad shocklands are in the format as budget substitutes for true duals.

Are shocklands really a deal-breaker when it comes to legacy deck building?

You want to play some games where you start at 16 to their 20? Be my guest.

[Mr. Safety]

You want to play some games where you start at 16 to their 20? Be my guest.

Sarcasm aside, I don't think it makes that much difference, as long as I'm at 1 when you're at 0. I know that in a competitive setting (GP) that every point of life counts and having the best possible odds of optimum deck performance is the best approach. I just think that it isn't as crucial as it used to be when Burn, Zoo, and other agro decks were much more prevalent. Do I lose the game any harder for being at 18 life against Show and Tell than at 20? I think you know the answer to that. Your response stinks of pompous douchebaggery.

@Megadeus: I also use fastlands, which are typically fine. In turbo depths I have a misers Bayou and instead of Overgrown Tombs I use 2x Blooming Marsh. It's fine most of the time and I'm fetching basics quite often anyways. I figured most legacy mana-bases are incredibly fetch heavy. When you have a ton of fetches it becomes pretty easy to do 2 colors, almost with basics alone, and a handful of budget dual lands (fastlands, 2x shocklands.)

Honestly, I'm looking for something that I haven't seen yet, some unknown downside that I haven't thought of yet. There is at least one obvious upside (Death's Shadow) but I don't think that kind of situation will pop up that much.

[Humphrey]

Shocklands are absolute trash that add up to nothing more than a slap in the face to anyone who's long time favorite format is the unloved bastard child of the Reserved list. I'd sooner play Chinese fakes at sanctioned events than bend over and take two from a land.

ftfy

[Megadeus]

I mean when it comes to larger sanctioned events I would just borrow the cards I don't have. I'm am blessed to know multiple people that are willing to lend me 4k in cardboard though and I know it's not always that easy. Like I said locally screw it play whatwhat you got. I just would hate to join an SCG or Grand Prix and lose simply because of a sub optimal mana base

[Vissah]

Build your deck around it and it`s not a problem.
I started playing BR Reanimator with a shock land base and of course sometimes it would give me some trouble but most of the times I would go for a basic Swamp anyway.
I think it is more important to just play Legacy and have some fun with this great format for as long as we can, be it with Duals or Shocks, who gives a fuck just play and have fun.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Like I said locally screw it play whatwhat you got. I just would hate to join an SCG or Grand Prix and lose simply because of a sub optimal mana base
Yeah, I understand this. If entry is $40 bucks or more, I'd want to be putting my best foot forward. Otherwise you could just give the money to your Burn opponent.

[Brael]

It's going to depend on what the deck is trying to do. Actually, I think the 2 basic land duals have some potential alongside some filter lands in a deck that's two colors.

[Jander78]

When compared to true dual lands, you're at a huge disadvantage if you're substituting them with shocklands. You could be shaving an entire turn or two off of your game. That's enough of a deal-breaker for me to not consider them in competitive play.

[kinda]

When compared to true dual lands, you're at a huge disadvantage if you're substituting them with shocklands. You could be shaving an entire turn or two off of your game. That's enough of a deal-breaker for me to not consider them in competitive play.

While I don't think you're wrong and wouldn't bring shocks to a gp or scg main event myself I think the idea of focusing on the shocks is silly (Also not sure if you're counting local 3-5 rounds events as 'competitive play'). Unless you're showing up with the deck you are confident has the best chance chance to win in the room, plus you've thoroughly playtested it, and you have a detailed sb plan etc. you're lowering your chances to win in a few different ways. It's just that with shocks it's obvious why you lost, while no one goes 'man I was one win from top 8ing the last two events...I really should have run brainstorm'.

[Mr. Safety]

Good discussion all, I appreciate it.

My biggest reason for posting the thread is to understand that true duals are literally the biggest roadblock to people getting into legacy. I am slowly building up staples for decks I want to play (Force of Will, Jace, etc.) but the majority of cards in Legacy are affordable, especially if they cross over from Modern. Most modern players have fetchlands, which are the more important half of the fetch/dual manabase. If shocklands aren't competitive the same as true duals (or some new land that is just as effective) I think the writing really is on the wall for legacy going the way of vintage (fewer events, fewer people playing, overall just a lower quality community/scene.)

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

but the majority of cards in Legacy are affordable, especially if they cross over from Modern.
"Affordable"
Magic isn't affordable at any constructed level. Accept your wealth and play accordingly.

[Brael]

Good discussion all, I appreciate it.

My biggest reason for posting the thread is to understand that true duals are literally the biggest roadblock to people getting into legacy. I am slowly building up staples for decks I want to play (Force of Will, Jace, etc.) but the majority of cards in Legacy are affordable, especially if they cross over from Modern. Most modern players have fetchlands, which are the more important half of the fetch/dual manabase. If shocklands aren't competitive the same as true duals (or some new land that is just as effective) I think the writing really is on the wall for legacy going the way of vintage (fewer events, fewer people playing, overall just a lower quality community/scene.)

Legacy has several options right now that are light on duals (which I'll define as 2 or less). Miracles doesn't play many, Shadow doesn't play many, S&S can get away with 2, BR Reanimator doesn't need many, Burn doesn't play them, and D&T doesn't play a single card on the RL.

Then there's possible brews as well. It's not the full format, but there are a lot of effective decks that have essentially circumvented the supply issue on duals at this point.

[Mr. Safety]

Legacy has several options right now that are light on duals (which I'll define as 2 or less). Miracles doesn't play many, Shadow doesn't play many, S&S can get away with 2, BR Reanimator doesn't need many, Burn doesn't play them, and D&T doesn't play a single card on the RL.

Then there's possible brews as well. It's not the full format, but there are a lot of effective decks that have essentially circumvented the supply issue on duals at this point.

Good point! It should be enough to open the format to many players. I know at my LGS, due to the reprinting of several high value staples (Rishadan Port and Wasteland mostly) D&T has really taken off.

[Echelon]

Manaless Dredge is a deck :laugh:

[Kwak]

I do see duals as being a roadblock for new players to join legacy, i would like it if they printed a new set of dual landa but make them legendary lands to avoid the RL. It wouldn’t break dual prices but it would help to get more people into playing Legacy.

[compacta_d]

I think you are wrong for assuming shocklands are the only option.

I'm working on miracles and going to try out Prairie Stream in place of Tundra, even though I have Tundras. Most times my miracles opponent's aren't fetching Tundra until they have they 3+lands in play anyways.

[Mr. Safety]

I think you are wrong for assuming shocklands are the only option.

I'm working on miracles and going to try out Prairie Stream in place of Tundra, even though I have Tundras. Most times my miracles opponent's aren't fetching Tundra until they have they 3+lands in play anyways.

Good point; I sometimes forget that WOTC has inserted some 'sub-par' fetchable duals. Irrigated Farmland offers a dual land with extended function if you have your mana already fixed with fetch/basics.

Nice talking point.

[kombatkiwi]

Good point; I sometimes forget that WOTC has inserted some 'sub-par' fetchable duals. Irrigated Farmland offers a dual land with extended function if you have your mana already fixed with fetch/basics.

Nice talking point.

I could almost see that being actually superior to Tundra
Especially if you have a B2B in play, you would probably much rather have a 2 mana cantrip than a lotus petal

[Bithlord]

Honestly, I think duals are more a perceptual roadblock for a lot of people than an actual roadblock. The visceral "my manabase costs WHAT?" reaction is enough to put a lot of people off, even when they'd happily pay the same amount for a deck if it were spread out over other cards.

[Mr. Safety]

I could almost see that being actually superior to Tundra
Especially if you have a B2B in play, you would probably much rather have a 2 mana cantrip than a lotus petal

Take it one step further: You can fetch for it tapped, return it to pay for Daze, then cycle it. This is obviously not ideal, but it's another angle in G1's where Daze becomes useless (and you don't have a Force of Will to make it worth anything.)

[kombatkiwi]

Take it one step further: You can fetch for it tapped, return it to pay for Daze, then cycle it. This is obviously not ideal, but it's another angle in G1's where Daze becomes useless (and you don't have a Force of Will to make it worth anything.)

Haha unfortunately decks with Daze really do not want to play lands that ETB tapped but I like where your head is at.

[Mr. Safety]

Haha unfortunately decks with Daze really do not want to play lands that ETB tapped but I like where your head is at.

Oh definitely, that's not a card you would play 4x in your Daze deck. One? Sure, maybe you can work around it, maybe make it land #21. My thinking is that in 2 color decks with 6+ basic lands and 8-10 fetchlands can easily fetch basic lands for stability and use their other lands in a different manner. Wasteland is ubiquitous (or close to it) in Daze decks, and that really isn't a mana-source either.

I'm trying to put together a reasonable mana base for UW Stoneblade, which has been getting some variety in it's lists lately. Owen Turtenwald played Delver, Wasteland, Daze, and 4x Spell Pierce in his Stoneblade deck. Other stoneblade variants are taking the more traditional route and avoiding Daze/Wasteland for ultra-stability like the Miracles decks (seeing a lot of basics, 5+ in lots of variations.) Back to Basics is driving a fetch-basic approach that actually opens up the door for other decks to do the same. Whether playing with it or against it, fetching basics naturally plays around other predators (Wasteland, Blood Moon) while fighting the latest BtB craze from the control decks.

This is my current mana-base, as I am on the Daze/Wasteland plan for Stoneblade:

4x Flooded Strand
3x Scalding Tarn
1x Arid Mesa
2x Hallowed Fountain
1x Seachrome Coast
4x Island
2x Plains
4x Wasteland

I could easily see -1 Fountain/+1 Praire Stream, due to 6 basics. I could also see putting in more fetchlands, but I definitely want at least 2x fetchable dual lands. The good news is that Stoneblade naturally fights life-loss with Jitte/Bskull. I began testing it against Burn, the boogie-man against shocklands. Haven't lost yet in testing, even post-board.

I'm not claiming 'this iz awesome, don't need no dualz', but so far for what I'm looking for (stable mana at the LGS) it works. More than anything, that first true dual is what makes the most difference. One Tundra and it changes the power level significantly. The 2nd and 3rd are important, but not as important as #1 (in my opinion.)

[alderon666]

1-land Belcher is the only deck that you could even start to argue that the 2 life doesn't matter.