[UMA] Ultimate Masters Edition (?)

[Barook]

Since the whole Mythic RtRtR Edition from Hasbro's Toy Shop was a clusterfuck, WotC apparently send out this apology letter and pack that has one of 40 foil promos with extended art:

The letter (https://twitter.com/lordredraven/status/1058420029912313856/photo/1)

Current list of known cards with pictures (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/164U6UxA3wOy-0xzSKVXieTnQj4ITNhqFo-OW03NwR4U/htmlview?usp=sharing&sle=true)

There's speculation that this "preview" refers to a Masters set for December that has been rumored for a while now, but that part is pretty vague.

Edit: Summary on MTGGoldfish with a spoiler gallery (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/new-promos-ultimate-box-topper)

[Ace/Homebrew]

Thank god they included Balefire Dragon. It looks like they did not use the shitty FtV foiling style this time... That's a plus. I do wish they reused the Liliana art for Demonic Tutor though. :frown:

[morgan_coke]

I'll be honest, looking at that gallery on MTGGoldfish, they look like a bunch of poorly done alters or fakes.

It's just kind of sad that they're official and look that bad and incoherent with each other. Like, the Liliana planeswalker looks like the regular card, and some of them look like they're from different Expeditions/Inventions/Invocation sets. Just no commonality to the art or forms.

[Barook]

I do wish they reused the Liliana art for Demonic Tutor though. :frown:
I'm not a fan of the Liliana Demonic Tutor art. However, I love this one:

https://i.imgur.com/6JSmDpw.jpg

Going on a treasure hunt with your demon bro. What's not to love?

[Ace/Homebrew]

What's not to love?
The lack of tutalage?

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=394025&type=card

Even the flavor text is good. But I want it shiny for a deck that uses Liliana and The Chain Veil. To each his own I guess...

[Technics]

Extended Art: Check
Centered and minimal Rules Text: Check
Art that's arguably good: Check
No FTV foiling process: Check
Cards players actually want: Check

It's like they actually listened to the players for once.

Now what are the chances these are not insanly difficult to aquire? Nadda.

[Hopo]

Extended Art: Check
Centered and minimal Rules Text: Check
Art that's arguably good: Check
No FTV foiling process: Check
Cards players actually want: Check

It's like they actually listened to the players for once.


The Source: "still not good enough"

[JackaBo]

I thought some were cool.

[adrieng]

where can we see the rarity looks like they are all mythics?

ok: it is a one off of each in the pack thanks I thought was like eternal reedition.

looks like the pack will be pretty expensive with all these spoilers right 500 $ at least ?

[colo]

Wow, the Demonic Tutor artwork is really quite something - I hope we're also going to see it in a non-Foil version of the card.

[Mr. Safety]

Those Dark Depths and Bitterblossoms are HOT.

[JDK]

So apparently Demonic Tutor, Urborg, Platinum Emperion and Temporal Manipulation are the only cards with centered text? :eyebrow:

[H]

Wizards official announcement (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/announcing-ultimate-masters-2018-11-05).

$14 packs, if you want a whole box with teh topper. Or 35 for just a 3 pack blister (no topper of course).

What I find more interesting is this statement: "Let's start with the big news—yes, we're shelving the Masters series for the foreseeable future. We are instead focusing on other products that will also include reprints. We'll talk more about those when the time comes, but we're sending off the Masters product line for the time being with this premium take on the Masters series, Ultimate Masters."

I kind of hope this means they'll put better reprints in new Commander products honestly.

[PirateKing]

I kind of hope this means they'll put better reprints in new Commander products honestly.

It just means they stumbled upon a good product then beat it to death as usual.

Modern Masters was a success so they printed it until nobody wanted it anymore.
Commander sets were a success so they got printed until nobody wanted them anymore.

Depending on how this next set goes, I wouldn't be surprised to hear "yes, we're shelving the Ravnica series for the foreseeable future. Sorry for fans hoping for Return to Return to Return to Ravnica"

[morgan_coke]

Well, those look a lot better than the images that were on MTGGoldfish. And only like 3 or 4 mythics are completely unplayable trash? Guess that's a solid improvement over normal, still not sure why Balefire Dragon, Lord of Extinction, Platinum Emperion and Mikaues the Unhallowed are in $15 packs though. Talk about a bad beat.

[H]

It just means they stumbled upon a good product then beat it to death as usual.

Modern Masters was a success so they printed it until nobody wanted it anymore.
Commander sets were a success so they got printed until nobody wanted them anymore.

Well, I do agree with you in general that certain things are often overdone. But, for example, try finding the 2016 Commander decks now. They are very, very expensive. People wanted those and still do. I don't think it's just because it was two years ago either. Rather, there are just better cards in it (both new and reprinted), compared to the far less interesting decks last year. I think people do want Commander decks still, they just don't want crappy ones.

The Masters sets were really suffering for them continuing to put less perceived value into the packs, but continuing to limit supply and raise the price. At some point, the "average consumer" just doesn't see much of a point in opening boxes. I don't think it was a case of people not wanting Master's sets, they just didn't want overpriced, not good Masters sets.

Ravnica though? Yeah, way over done.

[Erdvermampfa]

Less reprints of expensive cards, that's exactly what the game needs right now. That is, aside from another price increase of course. 14$ for a Balefire Dragon seems about right.

...

This 'announcement' is highly outrageous. They are not even providing one reason why they're cancelling the masters series. Also, his response to possible complaints about the price increase is also amusing which basically sums up to "You disagree with it, well too bad". Overall it seems like they were pressured by secondary market players with this decision because there have always been influential circles that were very upset about the master series and its reprints.

[Michael Keller]

One thing I've always wanted to see is another Time Spiral-esque set ("Timeshifted") where they use the old frame, old art and old foiling on random Eternal cards that never got to be foiled.

I'm honestly so tired of seeing the same cards reprinted over and over again.

[H]

One thing I've always wanted to see is another Time Spiral-esque set ("Timeshifted") where they use the old frame, old art and old foiling on random Eternal cards that never got to be foiled.

I'm honestly so tired of seeing the same cards reprinted over and over again.

Time Spiral was fantastic. But I think it doesn't fit with that their view of "modern Magic" is anymore, unfortunately.

I really don't care for reprint sets either, because I already own a shit load of cards, so most "Masters" sets are 99% cards I already own or don't care about at all. I think it would be much nicer if they rolled reprints into other products that are more interesting though.

This new "Box Topper" stuff, well, I don't like the way the cards look without a border, except the Liliana, because the Planewalker boarder sucks anyway and it looks better not being there. I do like the white type line though, but it's not enough to save them, really and certainly not enough to justify the price.

[Ace/Homebrew]

The Masters sets were really suffering for them continuing to put less perceived value into the packs, but continuing to limit supply and raise the price. At some point, the "average consumer" just doesn't see much of a point in opening boxes. I don't think it was a case of people not wanting Master's sets, they just didn't want overpriced, not good Masters sets.
This appears to be related to their insistence that Masters sets be draftable... Another issue was that they refused to allow a single card to have a mechanic, it had to be a theme within the set.

[Bithlord]

I kind of hope this means they'll put better reprints in new Commander products honestly.

They increased the price so they could print better reprints, and then didn't do that. There will be no change.

[PirateKing]

I do miss drafting Eye Tribal in Time Spiral. That was the messiest, all over the place set I can remember, which makes it my favorite but is also the antithesis of what they've said they're aiming for today.

As to the old Commander sets, you're absolutely right. They were good sets for a number of reasons. I don't know if it's a corporate shareholder mindset or just straight incompetence, but in recent memory the trend has been to try random shit, find the one that sells, then try and cut as much meat away and still sell it. When that ultimately fails they drop it and repeat with something new.

Commander and Masters sets are just one example, but the classic 3-set block into 2-set blocks into the "post-block" era, core sets ending but then M19 is a thing.
From the Vault was cool until it wasn't, just seems the list goes on. This isn't really a surprise.

I get that with the popularity of the game came a single market pricing issue, and it's nice to see them trying new things to solve a seemingly (to some) difficult problem. But all I see is a constant trend that the longer they print a product, the lower the quality seems.

[Barook]

Commander and Masters sets are just one example, but the classic 3-set block into 2-set blocks into the "post-block" era, core sets ending but then M19 is a thing.
From the Vault was cool until it wasn't, just seems the list goes on. This isn't really a surprise.

I get that with the popularity of the game came a single market pricing issue, and it's nice to see them trying new things to solve a seemingly (to some) difficult problem. But all I see is a constant trend that the longer they print a product, the lower the quality seems.
Pretty much this. They also spectacularly ran masterpiees into the ground after the whole Amonkhet Yugioh card fiasco.

Julian posted this on Twitter, which puts the whole thing into perspective:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DrRAvHDW4AsMZ1m.jpg:large

[morgan_coke]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DrRAvHDW4AsMZ1m.jpg:large

Yes, that is the correct question. I think the "limited supply" will win out for selling out the set, but the millions of people who buy a Switch instead are indeed making the right decision.

[Ronald Deuce]

Good thing they forgot Imperial Seal!

[H]

This appears to be related to their insistence that Masters sets be draftable... Another issue was that they refused to allow a single card to have a mechanic, it had to be a theme within the set.

Oh boy. Last time I tried to make this point, all sorts of people came out of the woodwork to accuse me of saying Limited shouldn't exist and that I hate Limited. One sized products do not fit all, but apparently I am wrong. Even though I said that people weren't generally finding opening boxes to be "woth it" and then all of a sudden Wizards starts trying to give people "added value" with these "box toppers." But what the hell do I know?


They increased the price so they could print better reprints, and then didn't do that. There will be no change.

Well, I don't buy that, of course. Even if that is what they said. They increased the price to make more money, obviously, that's the only reason to increase the price. They could print packs of 15 Black Lotus it would "cost" the same and 15 Giant Growths. Nonsense corporate marketing-speak is never going to be reasonable or intelligible from a non-marketing perspective.


Pretty much this. They also spectacularly ran masterpiees into the ground after the whole Amonkhet Yugioh card fiasco.

I have no way to prove this, but it's always been my hypothesis that the Expeditions and Masterpeices were very last minute attempts to prop up what they anticipated would be poor selling sets. And if that is true, it really showed, from both an art and layout perspective.

[apple713]

is it just me or do the normal full border cards look better than some of the extended border cards?

[Ace/Homebrew]

Oh boy. Last time I tried to make this point, all sorts of people came out of the woodwork to accuse me of saying Limited shouldn't exist and that I hate Limited. One sized products do not fit all, but apparently I am wrong.
You should have tried making that point while being me. People might have listened. :wink:

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Julian posted this on Twitter, which puts the whole thing into perspective:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DrRAvHDW4AsMZ1m.jpg:large

Even if you're buying it to draft with friends, it's still probably better to buy a switch + 2 games for most because you can invite your friends over repeatedly to get drunk and play mario kart.

You'd have to buy another box to do the same draft.


They increased the price so they could print better reprints, and then didn't do that. There will be no change.

They know this will just get marked up and sold for 2/3 times normal msrp. They may as well put some of that money in their pocket.

[Lord Seth]

It just means they stumbled upon a good product then beat it to death as usual.

Modern Masters was a success so they printed it until nobody wanted it anymore.
Commander sets were a success so they got printed until nobody wanted them anymore.I don't think the problem with Modern Masters was even was them doing it over and over. It was the fact they decided to up the MSRP of boosters while also cutting the value of the cards inside them (and, of course, they decide to up the price again with this new set). If they had sold Iconic Masters at the original $7 I think reception would've been a lot less lukewarm.


Depending on how this next set goes, I wouldn't be surprised to hear "yes, we're shelving the Ravnica series for the foreseeable future. Sorry for fans hoping for Return to Return to Return to Ravnica"I'd be astounded to hear that. Guilds of Ravnica has, as far as I can tell, been a big success and I'm seeing people excited about Standard for the first time in years.

[niv]

is it just me or do the normal full border cards look better than some of the extended border cards?
I agree. The full border cards honestly look a little lazy, especially with the way they seem to just cut off abruptly at the top.

[Ronald Deuce]

Oh boy. Last time I tried to make this point, all sorts of people came out of the woodwork to accuse me of saying Limited shouldn't exist and that I hate Limited. One sized products do not fit all, but apparently I am wrong. Even though I said that people weren't generally finding opening boxes to be "woth it" and then all of a sudden Wizards starts trying to give people "added value" with these "box toppers." But what the hell do I know?

They're looking to give Modern some bling value to distract people from the fact that they won't end the reserved list. Because if there are options to spend exorbitant amounts of money on a bunch of different things, why would people spend it on good cards? (That's how Marketing works.) Nearly explains the lack of Imperial Seal.


Even if you're buying it to draft with friends, it's still probably better to buy a switch + 2 games for most because you can invite your friends over repeatedly to get drunk and play mario kart.

Depressingly, booze also costs money. I should know. And only in one of the two alternatives he posted is buying booze expected/not really a hindrance to enjoying the game.

And you could spill booze on a reprinted Imperial Seal!

[H]

You should have tried making that point while being me. People might have listened. :wink:

I'll consider that option for next time. :cool:


They're looking to give Modern some bling value to distract people from the fact that they won't end the reserved list. Because if there are options to spend exorbitant amounts of money on a bunch of different things, why would people spend it on good cards? (That's how Marketing works.) Nearly explains the lack of Imperial Seal.

Sure, I get the "Modern" cards being included. I'm not quite sure what else you are saying though.

[PirateKing]

Sure, I get the "Modern" cards being included. I'm not quite sure what else you are saying though.

I read is as something like; people want City of Traitors but don't want to spend $250 on a copy, and they're not getting reprinted any time soon. Ancient Tomb is close but $35 a copy doesn't hold the same sway. So if you print an Expedition Ancient Tomb that values at $200, well that's just as good as City of Traitors, right? That implication that a deck's "goodness" is intrinsic to it's value. My Legacy deck can't stand a chance to that Vintage deck, it's only worth $4,000! His is way more!
Power (mtg kind) = Money = Power (other kind)

That's the sell with this kind of stuff I think. Players who buy this can strut saying "who needs dual lands, I have weird boarder foil Snapcaster Mages!"

[Bithlord]

I don't think the problem with Modern Masters was even was them doing it over and over. It was the fact they decided to up the MSRP of boosters while also cutting the value of the cards inside them (and, of course, they decide to up the price again with this new set). If they had sold Iconic Masters at the original $7 I think reception would've been a lot less lukewarm.

The underlying flaw was: They insisted that the set make a good draft environment, to the point of cutting out good cards that needed reprints. Then, they upped the cost of the packs because "value" to the point where it was cost prohibitive to draft.

They gimped the set to make it draftable, and then priced it too high to be draftable.

Clearly the solution was to charge MORE for it.

[H]

That's the sell with this kind of stuff I think. Players who buy this can strut saying "who needs dual lands, I have weird boarder foil Snapcaster Mages!"

Well, I don't doubt that there are these kinds of people out there. Same goes for the sorts that play foil/Expedition fetches with Revised duals. But I think most of them are really Modern players who just so happen to play Legacy once in a while though.

I don't think most Modern players want real duals anyway, because they'd never actually use them. And while some of them imagine that they want duals and other stuff, they don't actually want to play Legacy (or Vintage). Run some proxy events and you'll see, they just don't like the format.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Well, I don't doubt that there are these kinds of people out there. Same goes for the sorts that play foil/Expedition fetches with Revised duals. But I think most of them are really Modern players who just so happen to play Legacy once in a while though.

I don't think most Modern players want real duals anyway, because they'd never actually use them. And while some of them imagine that they want duals and other stuff, they don't actually want to play Legacy (or Vintage). Run some proxy events and you'll see, they just don't like the format.

My experience with proxy events is people get crushed by someone who actually plays the format and give up on it. Modern and Legacy. I've never seen someone who proxied up a deck for one of these tournaments come out of the tournament liking the format.

[PirateKing]

Well, I don't doubt that there are these kinds of people out there. Same goes for the sorts that play foil/Expedition fetches with Revised duals. But I think most of them are really Modern players who just so happen to play Legacy once in a while though.

I don't think most Modern players want real duals anyway, because they'd never actually use them. And while some of them imagine that they want duals and other stuff, they don't actually want to play Legacy (or Vintage). Run some proxy events and you'll see, they just don't like the format.

Its not so much that Modern players want to get into Legacy, it's that they want to be taken as seriously as older formats. And that deck value somehow equates to that. You're still riding your bike when your big brother gets a car. But if his car is a beater Jetta and you get a WTP BMX, then you're just as cool right?

[Ace/Homebrew]

If his car is a beater Jetta and you get a WTP BMX, then you're just as cool right?
You would be to middleschool girls. :cool:

[Ronald Deuce]

Its not so much that Modern players want to get into Legacy, it's that they want to be taken as seriously as older formats. . . . You're still riding your bike when your big brother gets a car. But if his car is a beater Jetta and you get a WTP BMX, then you're just as cool right?

Yeah, that's pretty much what I meant, just that I'm approaching it from Wizards's side rather than the players'. It's like, "well, if we can't please the Legacy and Vintage crowds, at least we can persuade ourselves we're making the Modern crowd's cards just as cool." Also, the packs will sell like hotcakes given the spoilers we've already seen, but I'm curious as to whether whole boxes will sell more because of the new "frameless" cards. To be honest, I didn't notice a huge difference between the frameless ones and the regular versions from the previews. I guess we'll see how they look in the flesh; I didn't expect Unstable Swamps to look that good, but I liked them when I actually saw them.

[Lav Dafka]

My experience with proxy events is people get crushed by someone who actually plays the format and give up on it. Modern and Legacy. I've never seen someone who proxied up a deck for one of these tournaments come out of the tournament liking the format.

I guess I’m an exception, then. I played my first Legacy event last week with a proxy deck, and I can’t wait to play again tonight. I’ve been spending the past week obsessively watching videos, reading primers, on discord, and thinking about how to buy into the format, and also converted my Modern Burn to Legacy.

I also had the incredibly good fortune to go undefeated, but I was fully prepared and expecting to go 0-x.

[Barook]

Also, the packs will sell like hotcakes given the spoilers we've already seen, but I'm curious as to whether whole boxes will sell more because of the new "frameless" cards.
While it has a good chance to sell well, I would first wait for the rest of the set before making predictions. They can still fuck it up by putting all the value into the mythics and having rares and uncommons be largely garbage fires. 14$ lottery per pack is alot.

[Ahab]

What is it with reddit and the constant attack on WotC? Do they even like the game?

I think it's really intersting how a lot of people "anthropomorphize" WotC as if it was a thinking entity. They are also obsessed with Mark Rosewater, Verhey and then you also have hundreds of youtube personalities, pros, twitch etc.
I feel like the last time I played before I stopped (RtR) this was not so... pronounced. Sure, you had ChannelFireball, SCG and other big sites but it all felt more calm. Less drama somehow.

Imagine you go to the store to buy some milk and you see that there's a new Mars bar with a real gold wrapper!!1! Let's immediately go to the Mars Inc subreddit and tell them how they are destroying their brand, ruining flavor, gatekeeping those of us that can only afford plastic wrappers (which are getting worse every year am I right guys???), make me want to quit I WILL NEVER BUY MARS BARS AGAIN.

UMA is expensive but so what?

[Dice_Box]

What is it with reddit and the constant attack on WotC? Do they even like the game?
You can like something a company makes while also disliking something that company does.

[bruizar]

What is it with reddit and the constant attack on WotC? Do they even like the game?

I think it's really intersting how a lot of people "anthropomorphize" WotC as if it was a thinking entity. They are also obsessed with Mark Rosewater, Verhey and then you also have hundreds of youtube personalities, pros, twitch etc.
I feel like the last time I played before I stopped (RtR) this was not so... pronounced. Sure, you had ChannelFireball, SCG and other big sites but it all felt more calm. Less drama somehow.

Imagine you go to the store to buy some milk and you see that there's a new Mars bar with a real gold wrapper!!1! Let's immediately go to the Mars Inc subreddit and tell them how they are destroying their brand, ruining flavor, gatekeeping those of us that can only afford plastic wrappers (which are getting worse every year am I right guys???), make me want to quit I WILL NEVER BUY MARS BARS AGAIN.

UMA is expensive but so what?

Sums up toxic gaming communities, magic is no different.

https://www.gamespot.com/forums/games-discussion-1000000/why-are-gaming-communities-becoming-so-toxiccanero-33401306/

https://www.ranker.com/list/video-games-with-toxic-communities/melissa-brinks

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2017-09-14-blizzards-jeff-kaplan-says-toxic-behaviour-is-slowing-overwatch-development

and a billion other links that address this issue

[Ahab]

Nice, good to know I'm not imagining things. Thanks for the links, I'll look into it.

[JosefK]

I think the thing is that it is sooo easy to be negative about things overall on the internet. You dislike something and you immediately get 10 people agreeing with you and if someone disagrees you shoot them down quickly with a one liner or a meme, the hive laughs. I don't know why it's so much harder to be enthusiastic about something. Well i guess it's because if you are, someone is going to point out something bad with a one liner and a meme and the hive laughs.
I would love more enthusiasm!

[Ahab]

I don't! Just accept it, think about buying it, ask your friends "hey, what do you think about UMA?". Have a conversation. I also don't get the hype for sets, especially as the reality is most of the time worse than the hype expected. Maybe reddit is just a bunch of 14 year olds (no offence, I am serious here).

[Watersaw]

People blame MaRo because he's the closest thing to a face that WotC has. A number of issues that people have with the game itself stem from the "New World Order" design philosophy that he championed in several articles and online posts. Reading through asks on his tumblr page there also is an apparent disconnect between his vision for for the game and what some players like (guaranteed shitshow any time Pongify, Delver of Secrets, Imprisoned in the Moon, or white card draw comes up).

And for better or worse WotC as a company seems more interested in establishing Magic as a brand than making the best card game on the market.

[Noctalor]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7gkq1LZ2FU

WOTC never misses

[Barook]

What is it with reddit and the constant attack on WotC? Do they even like the game?
Are you living in Bizarro World?

The Magic Reddit is heavily moderated by WotC-friendly moderators and delete most of the stuff the criticizes WotC. It's a circlejerk and the closest thing WotC has to an "official" forum nowadays after killing their own.

[the Thin White Duke]

WOTC never misses

So does this guy make it a habit to bring new Magic packs into his light-tight bathroom with a flashlight? :tongue:

This reminds me of when I learned that one could search Unlimited packs (any of the old plastic packaging). I think Revised was easy because the rare was the 4th card in the pack.

[Ace/Homebrew]

So does this guy make it a habit to bring new Magic packs into his light-tight bathroom with a flashlight? :tongue:
At least it's not a light-tight bedroom and a fleshlight...

[JDK]

Are you living in Bizarro World?

The Magic Reddit is heavily moderated by WotC-friendly moderators and delete most of the stuff the criticizes WotC. It's a circlejerk and the closest thing WotC has to an "official" forum nowadays after killing their own.

It's also heavily casual, which gets more obvious with all the Riley / Marshall coverage cock-riding.

Anyway, I will probably get a display of this Masters edition and host a Christmas Legacy tournament instead of (or maybe in addition to) the usual FNM.

[Ronald Deuce]

At least it's not a light-tight bedroom and a fleshlight...

Oh, gods, that was way funnier than it should've been.

[Lord Seth]

What is it with reddit and the constant attack on WotC? Do they even like the game?

I think it's really intersting how a lot of people "anthropomorphize" WotC as if it was a thinking entity. They are also obsessed with Mark Rosewater, Verhey and then you also have hundreds of youtube personalities, pros, twitch etc.
I feel like the last time I played before I stopped (RtR) this was not so... pronounced. Sure, you had ChannelFireball, SCG and other big sites but it all felt more calm. Less drama somehow.The fact Standard has been pretty awful for the last 2-3 years probably did a lot to make people like the company less. It's managed to improve a lot recently (and for the first time in a long time, there's a legitimately competitive deck that costs less than $100), but there was a long stretch of really bad Standard formats. There's just something fundamentally screwed up when you've made a format that somehow necessitates the banning of Rampaging Ferocidon.

[Finn]

Wow. That's some collection of winning cards. Hard to imagine a bad pack.

[Aggro_zombies]

Eh, I think the anger is justified, but also meaningless.

Masters sets aren't marketed at regular players. No one looks at them and thinks, "Man, if I spent three times as much on a draft of this format as I do on a regular draft, surely I'll have three times as much fun!" Masters sets are aimed at the growing segment of the community who view Magic as an investment vehicle where the bonds you're buying also happen to be game pieces.

People are tilted because the MSRP on these packs is frankly kind of insane but you have a very real chance of opening sub-$2 chaff like Lavaclaw Reaches in your rare slot and getting blown the fuck out. People were pissed at the last two Masters sets rubbing your face in what bad EV pack-cracking is, and this set takes that and cranks it to eleven.

A lot of this strikes me as fallout from Toys-R-Us going under. That was Hasbro's big sales arena and now that it's gone, they're flailing around a bit. I imagine they took a bunch of partially-finished products at WotC and are shoving them onto the market at maximum price to see what sticks under the assumption that Magic is a cash cow and the piles of 30-something collectors with shitloads of cash that drive Reserved List prices will snap up $300+ booster boxes because that's what rich Gen X and Millennial nerds do. You couldn't get away with this shit in a game like Pokemon where your average player is 12.

[kombatkiwi]

Masters sets aren't marketed at regular players. No one looks at them and thinks, "Man, if I spent three times as much on a draft of this format as I do on a regular draft, surely I'll have three times as much fun!" Masters sets are aimed at the growing segment of the community who view Magic as an investment vehicle where the bonds you're buying also happen to be game pieces.


This segment of the community should not exist

It's just like the problem with housing: houses are this investment vehicle where if you buy into it you just hold and never lose value, but then over time it gradually becomes impossible for new people to enter the market and then society is fucked

Obviously a children's card game isn't as important in the grand scheme of things, and as long as the reserved list exists this situation will be somewhat unavoidable for those, but I don't understand why wizards promote this situation at basically every opportunity, even for cards that they can reprint.

They're so afraid of looking like yugioh where the 'masters sets' actually do drop the prices of cards by a lot and they put staples in precons etc. Why? Where does this fear come from?
You would think that after the success of those standard precons (with Hazoret etc) they might realise that there is demand for this kind of product in eternal formats.
Instead all we get is masters sets released on such a sparse schedule and with the MSRP jacked into the stratosphere that the prices of the cards don't even change
I wouldn't be surprised at this point that within the next 5 years we get a new replacement for modern with part of the justification being that the barrier for entry of modern is too high. I honestly believe wotc could make that decision. ("We don't want to reprint modern cards because people will be upset that we dropped the prices, oh well let's just crash the price of the whole format and start over").

WotC is so good at
1) Making/designing cards
2) Nothing else

The problems with Kaladesh standard are basically a blip. From what I can tell people think GRN standard is great and you have the whole 20+ year history of the game which has been mostly fantastic. "If you have to ban Ferocidon then you obviously fucked up" is such a stupid thing to say. The power level of cards is contextual, red was clearly looking like the best deck with an energy nerf so they took away its best tools vs control (Ruins) and go-wide/tokens (Ferocidon). If you want to argue that any standard ban shows wotc fucked up then fine, singling out the dinosaur is such a stupid nitpick though.

The problem is that all of their talent seems to be focused in that sphere of card design. It was funny listening to one of Rosewater's recent podcasts where he talked about the history of the flicker mechanic and some of the notable cards that use it. In the examples he gave:
- Astral Slide: Described it as if it only triggers when you cycle (not any player) and it only lets you target your own creatures
- Flickerwisp: Said it targets creatures
- Saheeli Rai: Apparently forgot that the tokens from the second ability have haste, and therefore suggested that you needed some kind of Scion of the Wild or Impact Tremors effect to win with the Felidar Guardian combo
I'm sure there were others. I'm not saying that these statements indicate that MaRo is incompetent or that if he was more aware of these nuances he would be able to design cards better. My point is that these mistakes are evidence that he barely interfaces with competitive mtg at all and that he therefore isn't suited to making decisions about it. (Not that this necessarily is one of his current responsibilities).

In a similar vein I once met Gavin Verhey who asked me what would be the 1 thing I would change about mtg if I had the option: after some thought I just said 'the reserved list'. His immediate response was something along the lines of "oh yeah I hate the reserved list, not being able to print functional thunder-spirit-equivalents is really annoying".

WotC seems so focused on acquiring and cultivating these teams of Rosewaters who are brilliant game designers but can't seem to do anything else (or are at least very out of touch with the other needs of the players). We have the Great Designer Search but what MTG really needs is the Great Marketer Search or the Great Tournament Organizer Search. The problem with that is Rosewater and friends are very capable of judging entrants to a designer search, but there doesn't seem to be any higher-up at WotC who has any idea of what it means to do a good job in these other roles, so we seem to be stuck in a feedback loop where these people just never get hired. It's frustrating to see the success of mtg riding solely on the strength of The Game, and then have wotc focus all its efforts on pushing that as much as possible. The marginal benefit of having somebody who can properly organize a pro tour series or recognize that the silver showcase is a dumpster fire or not treat a reprint set like an ultra-exclusive-limited-edition-collectors-item seems much greater than adding 1 more person who knows how to balance a planeswalker

[ESG]

I guess I’m an exception, then. I played my first Legacy event last week with a proxy deck, and I can’t wait to play again tonight. I’ve been spending the past week obsessively watching videos, reading primers, on discord, and thinking about how to buy into the format, and also converted my Modern Burn to Legacy.

I also had the incredibly good fortune to go undefeated, but I was fully prepared and expecting to go 0-x.

Cool! Congrats, and welcome to Legacy, Lav Dafka! Post your experiences in the deck forums as you celebrate victories, and get feedback on how to approach the shifting metagame. There's also a rich history in the Source's archives that's always around to mine. It can be enlightening to see where decks started or revisit the viewpoints and contributions of former site members. If you want to watch more Legacy videos, Mox Boarding House/Card Kingdom streams Legacy weekly on Monday nights (6:30 p.m. Pacific Time) at https://www.twitch.tv/cardkingdom and does special programming on many weekends. Also, check out this thread, which is a year old but still contains many useful links to streams: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28892-Compilation-Of-Legacy-Streams

[Barook]

His immediate response was something along the lines of "oh yeah I hate the reserved list, not being able to print functional thunder-spirit-equivalents is really annoying".
I find it amazing that they still haven't figured out a way to reprint a Thunder Spirit that is functionally different based on +1/+1 or -1/-1 counters. E.g.:

Not-Thunder Spirit :1::w::w:
Creature - Other creature type than Spirit
Not-Thunder Spirit enters the battlefield with two +1/+1 counters on it.
Flying, first strike
0/0

[H]

I find it amazing that they still haven't figured out a way to reprint a Thunder Spirit that is functionally different based on +1/+1 or -1/-1 counters. E.g.:

Not-Thunder Spirit :1::w::w:
Creature - Other creature type than Spirit
Not-Thunder Spirit enters the battlefield with two +1/+1 counters on it.
Flying, first strike
0/0

I'm pretty sure that if they really wanted to "solve" that problem, it could be done.

Instead it's a nice, honest piece of nonsense to make MaRo look like a "good guy" in the Reserve List debate.

Unfortunately it's a completely bullshit stance and makes zero logical sense, outside of Marketing and PR double-speak.

[bruizar]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7gkq1LZ2FU

WOTC never misses

Why does this matter? This booster is encased in a box, so to get it you need to first open the box? At that stage, it might as well have no wrapper (if the card itself wouldn't get destroyed then)

[H]

Why does this matter? This booster is encased in a box, so to get it you need to first open the box? At that stage, it might as well have no wrapper (if the card itself wouldn't get destroyed then)

Because people will no doubt try selling just the Box Topper packs alone.

[the Thin White Duke]

Because people will no doubt try selling just the Box Topper packs alone.

... but the packaging explicitly says, "not for resale"! :eek: who would break such a good faith gesture from WOTC by selling this product on the open market? :tongue:

But actually, if the card is contained in a sealed box why does it need to be wrapped? Unless the intent is to have the cards sold after the box is opened?
I smell shenanigans afoot.

[PirateKing]

But actually, if the card is contained in a sealed box why does it need to be wrapped?

Pageantry. So all your friends can gather around and watch in awe as you slowly peal back the Wonka Bar to see the golden ticket.
Like all those old completer/video game ads showing a half dozen kids losing their shit over vector graphics or whatever.

[the Thin White Duke]

Pageantry. So all your friends can gather around and watch in awe as you slowly peal back the Wonka Bar to see the golden ticket.
Like all those old completer/video game ads showing a half dozen kids losing their shit over vector graphics or whatever.

I suppose it also gives those neckbeards with latex gloves another opportunity to post a video of them opening the pack on YouTube... no offense to latex gloves.

P.s you haven't lived until you played the OG Star Wars game on an arcade cabinet.

[rufus]

...
But actually, if the card is contained in a sealed box why does it need to be wrapped? Unless the intent is to have the cards sold after the box is opened?
I smell shenanigans afoot.

Maybe it's so that "mint" means they're still in the wrapper?

[thecrav]

But actually, if the card is contained in a sealed box why does it need to be wrapped? Unless the intent is to have the cards sold after the box is opened?
I smell shenanigans afoot.

Probably because there's no way to secure it in the box - the wrapper is to protect the card. Basically, a really really fancy sleeve.

[ronco]

Vexing Devil
Gamble
Squee, Goblin Nabob
Glen Elendra Archmage
Phyrexian Altar
spoiled this morning, all at rare.
Fecundity at uncommon.

[ronco]

other notables reprinted:
Back to Basics
Phyrexian Tower
Runed Halo


All at rare.

[morgan_coke]

The new Phyrexian Tower art is pretty solid, for whatever that's worth.

[Mr. Safety]

I'm looking forward to nabbing a set of Devils and 2-3 BtB's, maybe some Bitterblossoms. Reprints are alright with me. Containment Priest was a really nice reprint.

Notably absent (so far) is Force of Will. Anybody think it might still show up?

[ronco]

I'm looking forward to nabbing a set of Devils and 2-3 BtB's, maybe some Bitterblossoms. Reprints are alright with me. Containment Priest was a really nice reprint.

Notably absent (so far) is Force of Will. Anybody think it might still show up?

I really hope it does, but it's been printed at mythic (right?) in the last few prints so unless they are holding back, I am not going to hold my breath for it. I have no idea if they have spoiled all the mythics or not. That being said, it hasn't been crunched out number wise yet (rarity aside):
https://scryfall.com/sets/uma/crunch

[Bithlord]

Notably absent (so far) is Force of Will. Anybody think it might still show up?

Foil is in, so FoW seems unlikely as they fill the same role. Albeit at extremely different power levels.

[CptHaddock]

No magus of the chains yet :(

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dscr_WCUUAY5Y6Y.png:large

[Captain Hammer]

No magus of the chains yet :(

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dscr_WCUUAY5Y6Y.png:large

I don't think this set will have ANY new cards, only reprints.

Spirit of the Labynth is as close to a Magus of the Chains as I would expect in the foreseeable future.

Which is a shame because I would have LOVED some new Eldrazi and a decent green creature discard outlet. Neither Loleth Troll nor a Wild Mongrel with reach are playable these days thanks to power creep. The new wild mongrel should have atleast been a 3/3.

[morgan_coke]

After seeing all the rarity downshifts, I bought a couple of boxes on Amazon today at $270 each. Even if the price of the included cards falls to half of its current value I'll still turn a profit selling the singles. This set appears to be heavily loaded.

[Mr. Safety]

Foil is in, so FoW seems unlikely as they fill the same role. Albeit at extremely different power levels.

Yeah, I saw Foil yesterday night. Outside of graveyard synergies I think Foil is garbage, even in Limited. *shrug* I was hoping to see more FoW's in the market so I could get 3 more copies.

[ronco]

Yeah, I saw Foil yesterday night. Outside of graveyard synergies I think Foil is garbage, even in Limited. *shrug* I was hoping to see more FoW's in the market so I could get 3 more copies.

Me too, but 4!
Unfortunately, without a downshift I don't think we will see it. There are 19 mythics spoiled already, and none in white. I'd be thrilled to see it at rare, but im guessing they won't do that. Previous Master's sets were at 15 mythics, and we are at 19 right now (with 5 extra cards per set, I don't see this having more than 5 additional mythics). Fingers crossed regardless!

[morgan_coke]

Full set is up.

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/card-image-gallery/ultimate-masters-2018-11-19

Desolate Lighthouse was the final rare.

[Captain Hammer]

What a disappointment. I thought if they were going to charge $13 per Booster, they would atleast include tons good cards that people actually like playing with in it. Instead 95% of the cards are worthless crap.

Even if they included cheap iconic/nostalgic cards like Dark Ritual, Hypnotic Specter etc, the packs would be fun to draft but most of the cards are literally cards that no one cares about. So happy I didn't bother to preorder a box.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Yeah, I'm glad EDH players got some of their wishlist but a big old set of "meh" from here.

[Dice_Box]

Yeah, I saw Foil yesterday night. Outside of graveyard synergies I think Foil is garbage, even in Limited. *shrug* I was hoping to see more FoW's in the market so I could get 3 more copies.
Foil got shifted down to common. That's important seeing as most blue Tempo decks bounce islands with Gush a ton. (In Pauper)

[Ace/Homebrew]

Giving credit where credit is due, check out this amazing new art that isn't computer generated garbage:

https://media.wizards.com/2018/uma/en_9vuvjgmS9P.png

Imagine that art in here:

https://www.shenafu.com/imgd/ymtc/Vengeful_Rebirth_by_.png

[phonics]

Giving credit where credit is due, check out this amazing new art that isn't computer generated garbage:

https://media.wizards.com/2018/uma/en_9vuvjgmS9P.png

Imagine that art in here:

https://www.shenafu.com/imgd/ymtc/Vengeful_Rebirth_by_.png

Quite a few of the new art pieces are pretty great. Also interesting that the art that everyone thought was Dig Through Time wasn't used, despite Dig being in the set.

[Dice_Box]

Quite a few of the new art pieces are pretty great. Also interesting that the art that everyone thought was Dig Through Time wasn't used, despite Dig being in the set.

Got a link?

[phonics]

Got a link?
https://pm1.narvii.com/7018/c64aa2a613e549af99fa38e3786078d24cb9b28dr1-768-432v2_hq.jpg
https://media.wizards.com/2018/images/daily/NMCPJnPzTy.png

Its was the image on the announcement article and is on the box, but the visual spoiler has the old art.

https://img.scryfall.com/cards/large/front/0/1/01cd4184-93ce-4005-b6d1-140afa3dd429.jpg

[Kanti]

What a disappointment. I thought if they were going to charge $13 per Booster, they would atleast include tons good cards that people actually like playing with in it. Instead 95% of the cards are worthless crap.

Even if they included cheap iconic/nostalgic cards like Dark Ritual, Hypnotic Specter etc, the packs would be fun to draft but most of the cards are literally cards that no one cares about. So happy I didn't bother to preorder a box.

I don't mind Noble Hierach, Fauna Shaman, Goyf, Teeg, Leovold, EE, Ancient Tomb, Caverns, Karakas, Phyrexian Tower, Lilianna of the Veil, Bitterblossom, and some more. I think it's a fine set, but some oldies would have been nice.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Yeah but other than all those, what have the romans ever done for us?

[kombatkiwi]

I think this set is actually pretty good
If you go through all of the rares I think the vast majority of them were worth more than the MSRP of a pack before this set was announced. I was initially disappointed at the initial asking price but there are only a handful of big duds like Talrand, Reya etc and I think this set will clearly lower the prices of a lot of playable cards despite the high MSRP. There are a lot of obvious cards that needed reprints like Runed Halo, Colonnade, Back to Basics, as well as those expensive staples that it certainly doesn't hurt to reprint again (Liliana, Hierarch, etc)

For the people who think this is a disappointment, what were you expecting? Full sets of fetchlands, SNT + Sneak, the whole DNT deck? Of course there are expensive cards that aren't included like Jace, Opal, FoW, etc but overall I think the set will have a significant positive impact on the secondary market (from the POV of decreasing prices) and therefore it's hard to complain about it too much

[Dice_Box]

For the people who think this is a disappointment, what were you expecting? Full sets of fetchlands, SNT + Sneak, the whole DNT deck?
At $25au for one booster, I would call this a start. Really, these are going to cost 25 a booster here. Honestly there was nothing that could have made me impressed at this point because the whole thing is just disgusting.

[Purple Blood]

For the people who think this is a disappointment, what were you expecting? Full sets of fetchlands, SNT + Sneak, the whole DNT deck? Of course there are expensive cards that aren't included like Jace, Opal, FoW, etc but overall I think the set will have a significant positive impact on the secondary market (from the POV of decreasing prices) and therefore it's hard to complain about it too much

Not that I think it's a bad set or anything but I would be interested to see what would happen if they actually made a reprint set without any garbage at all. Would potentially be a really fun draft set that could play out similar to Legacy Cube.

[Ace/Homebrew]

$25au for one booster
Crikey! Twenty-five dollarydoos :eek:

[Ronald Deuce]

I'd consider stowing away on a freighter to Australia to pay $25 (AU) for a chance at an Imperial Seal. Oh, well.

[Darkenslight]

The way I see it:

UMA is not a bad set. The key issue is the massive bump in cost relative to value. The set is really tightly balanced, and seems like, if it were at the original Masters set MSRP of US$6.99, this would not only sell like hotcakes, but it would also give back to the Eternal communities and also increase supply. The card choices mostly make sense, and allow for a Limited format that is really cool and interesting, offering a lot of flexibility in terms of deck competition.

But at its current MSRP, it's just a terrible buy unless your RNG is good. And that will significantly diminish unless you get one of the extremely flexible, playable cards. Sure, it increases a few Portal/Starter printings, but outside of Imp. Seal and a couple of others, it's just...meh.

[Lord Seth]

The way I see it:

UMA is not a bad set. The key issue is the massive bump in cost relative to value. The set is really tightly balanced, and seems like, if it were at the original Masters set MSRP of US$6.99, this would not only sell like hotcakes, but it would also give back to the Eternal communities and also increase supply. The card choices mostly make sense, and allow for a Limited format that is really cool and interesting, offering a lot of flexibility in terms of deck competition.

But at its current MSRP, it's just a terrible buy unless your RNG is good. And that will significantly diminish unless you get one of the extremely flexible, playable cards. Sure, it increases a few Portal/Starter printings, but outside of Imp. Seal and a couple of others, it's just...meh.I don't think they would even have to go back down to the original Modern Masters MSRP, just stick with the $9.99 price point they've been using for the recent Modern Masters sets.

[Erdvermampfa]

I don't know if this has been mentioned in this place but people have collected very convincing evidence that this wasn't originally planned to be the "ultimate" masters set but a themed one about graveyard stuff. That's why the box description on the back mentions the graveyard and why the set symbol comprises two skulls if you look closely. At some point they must have changed this to be the last masters set for whatever reason and used this opportunity to throw in abundant stuff like the cancelled Ixalan Masterpieces (look at the Demonic tutor art) as well.

[jubeininja69]

I don't know if this has been mentioned in this place but people have collected very convincing evidence that this wasn't originally planned to be the "ultimate" masters set but a themed one about graveyard stuff. That's why the box description on the back mentions the graveyard and why the set symbol comprises two skulls if you look closely. At some point they must have changed this to be the last masters set for whatever reason and used this opportunity to throw in abundant stuff like the cancelled Ixalan Masterpieces (look at the Demonic tutor art) as well.

well they got huge flack from masters 25. it wouldn't surprised me they went back to the drawing board shortly after masters 25 and decided to change graveyard masters to ultimate masters and reused some assets to cut down on time. it was a good decision though because they included lots of value in ultimate.

[MGB]

is anybody else just not impressed with the "box toppers" as desirable premium cards?

I'd much rather just play with my Expedition Ancient Tombs than the Box Topper ones. The art on the new Box Toppers is kind of lame, to be honest.

[Lord Seth]

So I've never really paid too much attention to pricing trends from Masters Editions because they were never cards I needed, but I could use a few Tarmogoyfs and they just got reprinted in this set. What is generally the best time to pick them up after the Masters Edition is released?

[Megadeus]

Basically right now. I know on some of the Facebook groups they are going for like 35-40 for new Goyfs.

[pettdan]

There was some discussion about this on mtgfinance on Reddit the other day, I think someone argued for just after release and someone argued for in a couple of weeks. This depends on how popular the cards are, and I guess the pattern of opening boxes.

I'll speculate a little bit because it's fun, don't pay too much attention to this. Regarding popularity, Tarmogoyf has been dropping in price for the past couple of years, I would guess this is some effect of price memory and that with new supply it might drop more, but on the other hand I want to argue against that and say that it's a popular card that is still being used and that many want to own so maybe it will increase in price for now...? I've been thinking for a long time to pick them up myself once they reach 30€, from about 100€ so they are getting closer... Anyway, regarding box opening, maybe this set is popular to open, just speculation, and if so supply will continue to increase which would help lowering prices over the next couple of weeks. I'm thinking Christmas will influence prices over the next weeks too, but not so sure how this influences these cards; if you're short on money for Christmas you'll buy less cards, on the other hand, maybe you'll buy some extra cards as a gift to yourself [edit: not the guy short on money, obviously, different guy].

So, I don't really know what to think. Goyf is a mythic too, so that lower supply also makes it behave differently from for example Noble Hierarch (which has higher demand). I'd wait at least 3-4 days and see how the price progresses. I think I've seen before how the prices after release can behave like the stock market with rebounds, so even trends during these 3-4 days may be short hickups.. So depending on how the prices change, and how much you enjoy watching the prices fluctuate (not a lot, I guess), you can wait another week or two, or if prices seem steadily increasing then grab your set now. But be aware that supply [edit: fixed that] may increase from opening of boxes and once the demand is saturated in a couple of weeks, if that happens, prices can start dropping..

[Megadeus]

Honestly if anything buy the stuff that didn't get printed now. It's high, but it'll just go higher

[morgan_coke]

The real hit to Goyf's price came from Fatal Push getting printed, which finally gave non-white blue/black decks a cheap, reliable, maindeckable answer to him.

[pettdan]

Yes, and maybe Gurmag? And Pyromancer being popular also hurt Goyf a bit, maybe even TNN, but maybe mostly Push. It seemed a bit too far off topic to go into that.

[Dice_Box]

The real hit to Goyf's price came from Fatal Push getting printed, which finally gave non-white blue/black decks a cheap, reliable, maindeckable answer to him.
I disagree. This card pushed The Rock and Jund back into a playable position in Modern where Goyf had been seeing next to no play. Sure, there is another answer for the card but it's an answer that is often paired with it.

[pettdan]

Ah yeah, modern sets prices, not legacy, that's for sure..

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

So I've never really paid too much attention to pricing trends from Masters Editions because they were never cards I needed, but I could use a few Tarmogoyfs and they just got reprinted in this set. What is generally the best time to pick them up after the Masters Edition is released?

About a month or two if you aren’t in a big hurry.

[Poron]

Fatal Push and Lilianas made non-white control decks possible

[Moosedog]

Honestly if anything buy the stuff that didn't get printed now. It's high, but it'll just go higher

Such as? Off the top of my head; surgical extraction, mox opal...

[Megadeus]

Such as? Off the top of my head; surgical extraction, mox opal...

Fetches gotta be the big ones. Khans fetches especially. They're too low. This set gave you staples, standard is giving you shocks. Fetches of all kinds and basically any staple that wasn't in this set or seen a reprint in the past couple years. Like manamorphose, surgical, leylines