Making Magic Fun Again - A new format where every single card is legal as long as...

[Captain Hammer]

My friends and I were having a discussion about how the fun of nonrotating formats has fallen dramatically over the past 15 years or so. Most of us got into magic because we loved fair decks and attacking with creatures. However, the best decks in nonrotating formats are combo or control decks, where decks consisting of just basic lands do not exist and paying 3 mana for a 5/4 or a Hypnotic Specter or 4 mana for a Surrak, the Huntcaller, Baneslayer Angel, Goreclaw or Phyrexian Obliterator is not considered a competitive strategy. Half the time is spent most games just resolving cantrips and shuffle effects instead of actually playing out the game.

Our goal is to have a clearly defined rule we would all have to abide by to advance three goals, make sure creature decks are viable again, allow for competive decks to be built on a budget so people who don't have expensive cards don't feel excluded, ensure the games are more fun.

Based on the feedback we got below, this is the rule we are considering at the moment
Nonbasic lands are banned
Every other legacy legal card is allowed

My friends and I plan to try this format later this year, and we would love some input. Do you think a format such as this would be pretty balanced. Or would it need a ban list? What do you think would need to be banned? Do you guys think this would make for an eternal format that is friendlier to creatures and budgets?





Previous OP is below:


Making Magic Fun Again - A new format where the only legal cards are those that have either the word “creature” or “land” somewhere on them. Every single card that meets this requirement is legal. Help my friends and I come up with a ban list, if you feel such a format will even need one. Our current plan is that literally every single card including vintage cards (and possibly even unglued cards) would be legal as long as they have the word “creature” or “land” somewhere in the text.

Any card that doesn't have the word creature or land on it somewhere would not be legal (cards like Lighting Bolt would be legal as the text would be read as "deal 3 damage to any target creature, player or planeswalker.")

What would a format where the only cards allowed are those with the word “creature” or “land” in the text somewhere look like? The format would focus on creatures, which should appeal to quite a few people who miss the joy of beating down opponents without fear of too many combo, chalice stax or control strategies that warp formats around them.

Control
Engineered Plague, Ensnaring Bridge, Blood Moon, Toxic Deluge, Reclamation Sage, The Abyss, StP, Lightning Bolt, Wrath of God, Pox and other removal effects would be the bread and butter of control strategies. Without the ability to cantrip or counter spells, control decks would need to play more fairly and would likely need to rely on creature based win conditions themselves as planeswalkers could be vulnerable to attacks. They would just buy time with removal effects and then win with a larger or more resilient creature (Morphling) than aggro strategies typically employ.

Combo
Creature based combos would still be viable. Decks like Reanimator, Dredge, Dark Depths would still function, they would just be slower due to the lack of mana accelerants (though Elvish Spirit Guide and Simian Spirit Guide would still be legal) but the fundamental turn would probably be somewhere around turn 4. They would also likely be less consistent with the lack of cantrips but I think they could still be competitive thanks to tutors such as Living Wish, Entomb and Crop Rotation. They would likely not be able to power out turn 2 wins any longer and would thus be more vulnerable to removal.

Aggro
Some decks such as Death and Taxes, Sligh/Goblins, Merfolk, Maverick, Elves etc would survive unchanged. Most of these decks would likely be significantly weaker in an environment dominated by creatures and removal (Thalia certainly wouldn’t be as good). Elves would be quite powerful but cards like Engineered Plague and Wrath effects should be enough to keep it in check without necessitating a Glimpse ban.

[morgan_coke]

Making Magic Fun Again - A new format where every legal card must have either the word “creature” or “land” in it’s text somewhere. Help my friends and I come up with a ban list, if you feel such a format will even need one. Our current plan is that literally every single card including vintage cards (and possibly even unglued cards) would be legal as long as they have the word “creature” or “land” somewhere in the text.

Any card that doesn't have the word creature or land on it somewhere would not be legal (cards like Lighting Bolt would be legal as the text would be read as "deal 3 damage to any target creature, player or planeswalker.")

My friends and I were having a discussion about how the fun of nonrotating formats has fallen dramatically over the past 15 years or so. Most of us got into magic because we loved fair decks and attacking with creatures. However, the best decks in nonrotating formats are combo or control decks, where decks consisting of just basic lands do not exist and paying 3 mana for a 5/4 or aHypnotic Specter or 4 mana for a Surrak, the Huntcaller, Baneslayer Angel or Phyrexian Obliterator is not considered a competitive strategy. Half the time is spent most games just resolving cantrips and shuffle effects instead of actually playing out the game.

What would a format where the only cards allowed are those with the word “creature” or “land” in the text somewhere look like? The format would focus on creatures, which should appeal to quite a few people who miss the joy of beating down opponents without fear of too many combo, chalice stax or control strategies that warp formats around them.

Control
Engineered Plague, Ensnaring Bridge, Blood Moon, Toxic Deluge, Reclamation Sage, The Abyss, StP, Lightning Bolt, Wrath of God, Pox and other removal effects would be the bread and butter of control strategies. Without the ability to cantrip or counter spells, control decks would need to play more fairly and would likely need to rely on creature based win conditions themselves as planeswalkers could be vulnerable to attacks. They would just buy time with removal effects and then win with a larger, more resilient creature than aggro strategies typically employ.

Combo
Creature based combos would still be viable. Decks like Reanimator, Dredge, Dark Depths would still function, they would just be slower due to the lack of mana accelerants (though Elvish Spirit Guide and Simian Spirit Guide would still be legal) but the fundamental turn would probably be somewhere around turn 4. They would also likely be less consistent with the lack of cantrips but I think they could still be competitive thanks to tutors such as Living Wish, Entomb and Crop Rotation. They would likely not be able to power out turn 2 wins any longer and would thus be more vulnerable to removal.

Aggro
Some decks such as Death and Taxes, Sligh/Goblins, Merfolk, Maverick, Elves etc would survive unchanged. Most of these decks would likely be significantly weaker in an environment dominated by creatures and removal (Thalia certainly wouldn’t be as good). Elves would be quite powerful but cards like Engineered Plague and Wrath effects should be enough to keep it in check without necessitating a Glimpse ban.

My friends and I plan to try this format later this year, and we would love some input. Do you think a format such as this would be pretty balanced. Or would it need a ban list? What do you think would need to be banned.

Just off the top of my head Turbo Dark Depths, Death's Shadow and Masknaught would annihilate whatever "fair" plans you had.

If you really want to do something like this, just pick some blocks you liked a lot and roll with it. IPA -> RGD or something would probably work pretty well for that.

[Captain Hammer]

I wonder if Worship would see play again in this format.


Just off the top of my head Turbo Dark Depths, Death's Shadow and Masknaught would annihilate whatever "fair" plans you had.

If you really want to do something like this, just pick some blocks you liked a lot and roll with it. IPA -> RGD or something would probably work pretty well for that.

Those decks would no longer be able to play any of their cantrips, counterspells or mana acceleration. Nought would lose Stifle/Trickbind and FoW and would be left vulnerable to all the removal that would see play in the format.

Not being able to FoW/Inquisition Ensnaring Bridge/Blood Moon/Blood Sun/Magus of the Moon should cripple most of these strategies.

I hope that decks with lots of basic lands would make up a significant portion of the format due to the lack of outs against Blood Moon effects and the inability to cantrip for these outs. Do you think this is incorrect?

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 mox diamond
4 ssg
4 life from the loam
4 worldgorger
4 crop rotation
4 squee
4 animate dead
4 dance of the dead
1 kill creature

I think you have to ban Bazaar. Workshop also seems like it will outclass other strategies.

[Matsaya]

Any card that doesn't have the word creature or land on it somewhere would not be legal (cards like Lighting Bolt would be legal as the text would be read as "deal 3 damage to any target creature, player or planeswalker.")


Oracle text for Lightning bolt : "Lightning Bolt deals 3 damage to any target." (Sure, you can change it, but then why not change some other cards …)

As for lands : the deck "only" loose gamble, but wins fastbond, Strip Mine, Bazaar of Baghdad and maybe Library of Alexandria

[Captain Hammer]

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 mox diamond
4 ssg
4 life from the loam
4 worldgorger
4 crop rotation
4 squee
4 animate dead
4 dance of the dead
1 kill creature

I think you have to ban Bazaar. Workshop also seems like it will outclass other strategies.

I think you guys are right.

Bazaar, Workshop and maybe Dark Depths will need to be banned as a starting point. Any others?

[tsabo_tavoc]

That’s a really cool idea.
I think Strip Mine needs to be banned. Also, Skullclamp can make some really degenerate decks.

[Captain Hammer]

That’s a really cool idea.
I think Strip Mine needs to be banned. Also, Skullclamp can make some really degenerate decks.

Thank you. Yeah Strip Mine likely will warrant a ban as well. Not sure what a skullclamp deck would look like.

Perhaps it would be easier for us to just play a format where all non basic lands and the power 8 are banned and everything else is legal. That might achieve the same goal.


wouldn't eldrazi just be the best deck?

It would likely be tier one but I doubt it would be near as strong as skullclamp elves, dark depths/lands, shops, bazaar dredge etc. If it proves too powerful Eye of Ugin could eat a ban alongside the other cards.

[Captain Hammer]

Oracle text for Lightning bolt : "Lightning Bolt deals 3 damage to any target." (Sure, you can change it, but then why not change some other cards …)


We are going to allow cards that have the word "creature/land" in their actual text, even if they no longer include that word in their oracle errated text.

[mistercakes]

wouldn't eldrazi just be the best deck?

[morgan_coke]

wouldn't eldrazi just be the best deck?

Or Combo Elves with Glimpse or something?

Honestly this reminds me of Online Tribal, which started out cool, then rapidly devolved into the single most degenerate combo format I've ever seen in my entire life. Like, it was honestly up there with Combo Winter.

Pretty sure you could do a version of 1 or 2 land Goblin Charbelcher that would be legal in this format as well.

[ReAnimator]

Your stated goals of having 4 drop creatures being relevant and beating down in no way lines up with how this banned list would work out.

Like 4 drop 5/5 vs a deck with 16 kobolds/memnites 4xGlimps 4xSkullclamp 4x Gaea's Cradle, is not going to be remotely fair. This format would still be broken as fuck honestly.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

I doubt any kind of storm based combo would be viable, you only have Mox Diamond and the Spirit Guides.

[ReAnimator]

Ehh it's not that hard to find compact win cons that can chuck a lot of creatures. In my kobold idea above you just need to put in a haunting misery and a way to produce black mana like Wild cantor or something, heck just throwing in a Craterhoof will probably get you there a lot of the time.

[rufus]

How is stuff like Flash Hulk, Food Chain Goblins or Elves?

Oath of Druids seems like another obvious necessary ban.

Survival of the Fittest is likely too.

[taconaut]

Why not just play draft or Standard? Literally every set they design in recent years is 90% about just jamming some 4 drops and hitting your opponent/their 4 drops with them?

[Cave]

I'll come in like a wrecking ball with disturbing arrogance.
It looks like you want a format without blue shenanigans.
Well, of all the guys screaming for blue nerfs in that damned thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?14662-All-B-R-update-speculation/page1038) I won't even mention, there's very few advocating for a Force of Will ban, because most people realize that being able to counter a spell for [0] is the glue that keeps any old format together.

You, on the other hand, want to create a format where Force of Will isn't legal but every non-blue broken balance mistake that ever happened to get printed is.
Creature battles? LOL. As others pointed out, either it would get down to who deploys their broken non-blue, non-black combo faster and oneshots on turn 3, or you're gonna start chopping wood and make your own home-made paper because you can't buy enough packs of sheets at your local store to write down a plausible banlist for the format. And even then, when you're done writing off your 2-miles long banlist, you're still better off playing non-eternal if you want to drop monsters and turn them sideways until they get removed.

Edit: As a more productive contribute to your idea, how many cards in your format could stop every red deck from running 4x Sneak Attack, given that I can't really think of a decent legal enchantment counterspell? Spell Queller? Revoker? Does Spell Pierce count as card containing the word "creature"?

[Captain Hammer]

You make a good point Cave. I guess this format won't work.

How about an alternate Format that is basically legacy but with all nonbasic lands banned. Do you think that would be a eternal format that is friendlier to creatures?

[morgan_coke]

You make a good point Cave. I guess this format won't work.

How about an alternate Format that is basically legacy but with all nonbasic lands banned. Do you think that would be a eternal format that is friendlier to creatures?

No, people can just win with elves or goblins or something else stupid that we're not even taking the time to think of, or T2 Dredge.

I said it before and it's still true. What you want is something like IPA through RGD. Either that or Standard or Modern. Or just play with your friends that want to play the same kind of kitchen table magic. You're not looking for a new format, you're looking for casual games.

[Captain Hammer]

The whole point is to have a clearly defined rule we would all have to abide by to serve three roles, make sure creature decks are viable again, allow for competive decks to be built on a budget so people who don't have expensive cards don't feel excluded, ensure the games are more fun.

I don't see how this would not be achieved by the rule...
Nonbasic lands are banned
Every other legacy legal card is legal

That should lead to a balanced format where creature based strategies would thrive and budget decks are more viable. Is there any flaw in that ruleset?

[taconaut]

The whole point is to have a clearly defined rule we would all have to abide by to serve three roles, make sure creature decks are viable again, allow for competive decks to be built on a budget so people who don't have expensive cards don't feel excluded, ensure the games are more fun.

I don't see how this would not be achieved by the rule...
Nonbasic lands are banned
Every other legacy legal card is legal

That should lead to a balanced format where creature based strategies would thrive and budget decks are more viable. Is there any flaw in that ruleset?

First thing that comes to mind to me is High Tide, which doesn't seem conducive to creature decks being good (especially with Frantic Search legal).

A format my buddies and I used to play was a sort of highlander thing where you played 60 card decks, but you chose 3 colors, and you had to have something like at least ten cards of each color, and I think a certain number of each card type. The idea was that since it's highlander, the games will be varied, and it's harder to make a good combo deck because you only have one copy of each piece.

[morgan_coke]

The whole point is to have a clearly defined rule we would all have to abide by to serve three roles, make sure creature decks are viable again, allow for competive decks to be built on a budget so people who don't have expensive cards don't feel excluded, ensure the games are more fun.

I don't see how this would not be achieved by the rule...
Nonbasic lands are banned
Every other legacy legal card is legal

That should lead to a balanced format where creature based strategies would thrive and budget decks are more viable. Is there any flaw in that ruleset?

No. It won't. Under this proposed format, Elves, Dredge, and Reanimator can all win on turn 2, and that's just off the top of my head. Just play Pauper or Peasant or something. Your proposed format sucks, and we've all been pretty polite trying to point that out to you gently, but you just can't seem to understand the basic concept: An eternal format without Force of Will or a banlist as large as the encyclopedia DOESN'T FUCKING WORK.

There are already a dozen goddamned alternative formats that do what you say you want: Modern, Pauper, Peasant, Commander, Post-Modern, etc. etc. Go play one of those and be happy.

[Captain Hammer]

Have you guys read the posts that you're quoting.

It doesn't seem like you even read what I wrote before criticizing it.

Read again the post you quoted please...
"Nonbasic lands are banned
Every other legacy legal card is legal"

What about that quote makes you think FoW would NOT be legal in this format?
What about that quote makes you think Frantic Search would be legal in this format?

I am open to feedback that actually addresses the proposal that you quoted. Thank you.

[Matsaya]

High tide
Burn
Belcher
Mono black reanimator
Oops all spells
MonoR sneack attack / trough the breach (not sure for this one, lack the acceleration of sol lands)
Elves
OmniShow
Pox
Mono G enchantress
(Mono G) infect
Dredge
Stax ?
…


Add to that the fact that only basics -> no 3 color decks and hard times to have bicolor deck. Daze becomes impossible to play outside monoblue and even Force of Will becomes much worse outside monoblue (harder time to construct bicolor deck, and the cantrip shell becomes less good without fetchlands, so harder to have the blue count for FoW).

[rufus]

...

I am open to feedback that actually addresses the proposal that you quoted. Thank you.

As a general comment: It seems like you're (more or less) randomly changing stuff and hoping that "fun" magically pops out the other end.

Just because we can't immediately find degenerate things doesn't mean there's a lack of them. It also doesn't help that it's not clear what "fun" is.

[Lejay]

You're not looking for a new format, you're looking for casual games.


The whole point is to have a clearly defined rule we would all have to abide by to serve three roles, make sure creature decks are viable again, allow for competive decks to be built on a budget so people who don't have expensive cards don't feel excluded, ensure the games are more fun.

I don't see how this would not be achieved by the rule...
Nonbasic lands are banned


The idea was that since it's highlander, the games will be varied, and it's harder to make a good combo deck because you only have one copy of each piece.


An eternal format without Force of Will or a banlist as large as the encyclopedia DOESN'T WORK.


As a general comment: It seems like you're (more or less) randomly changing stuff and hoping that "fun" magically pops out the other end.

Just because we can't immediately find degenerate things doesn't mean there's a lack of them. It also doesn't help that it's not clear what "fun" is.


I personnally thought a lot about this issue about ten years ago and ended up optimizing through the years a format that takes into account several elements I quoted.
Rules have first and foremost been thought in order to maximize the fun and it is very low budget, possibly free.
Some of you may be disappointed about not being able to build your own deck, but in ten years I still haven't find someone who didn't like this multiplayer format format after testing, even the guys that love deckbuilding.
My format is optimized for games at 3-4-5 players, but some guys adapted the decklist choices for duels (mostly by removing cards that are too powerful and cards that draw too much).
Links are in my signature but I will copy them below. I barely made any publicity for it even thought I was updating it in english in case of.

This link is for historical update but start there to read the 'General Rules' in the Cube description box (on the right of the page) and see how it is played :
http://www.cubetutor.com/cubeblog/5649

The visual spoiler to see how it looks :
http://www.cubetutor.com/visualspoiler/5649

The decklist with card names :
http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/5649

[Captain Hammer]

High tide
Burn
Belcher
Mono black reanimator
Oops all spells
MonoR sneack attack / trough the breach (not sure for this one, lack the acceleration of sol lands)
Elves
OmniShow
Pox
Mono G enchantress
(Mono G) infect
Dredge
Stax ?
…


Add to that the fact that only basics -> no 3 color decks and hard times to have bicolor deck. Daze becomes impossible to play outside monoblue and even Force of Will becomes much worse outside monoblue (harder time to construct bicolor deck, and the cantrip shell becomes less good without fetchlands, so harder to have the blue count for FoW).

That sounds like a great and fun environment actually. Add Mono Blue Delver with FoW/Daze as a check on some of the combo decks on to that list.

None of those decks would be degenerate or oppressive of aggro strategies. For example, omnitell without access to nonbasics and with a nerfed Brainstorm would actually be a fair deck.

[Captain Hammer]

I am going to ask the mods to lock this thread so that I can start a thread titled...

"Basic Legacy: What would a variant legacy format in which all nonbasic lands are banned looked like? Would it be more fun? More budget friendly? Friendlier to fair decks and aggro strategies?"

I think that should avoid some of the confusion that stems from my confusing OP.

[Bithlord]

It seems like you're (more or less) randomly changing stuff and hoping that "fun" magically pops out the other end.


To be fair, that's pretty much what WotC is doing too...