Unstable Mutation + Ordeal of Thassa

[Fallen_Empire]

Unstable Mutation gives a creature +3/+3 and then each upkeep -1/-1 in the form of counters.
Question #1 - Does the +3/+3 effect of playing Unstable Mutation count as 3x +1/+1 counters?, and if so can playing it trigger the sac trigger for Ordeal of Thassa ?

Question #2 - If I have both Unstable Mutation & Ordeal of Thassa on a creature and each upkeep i'm putting a -1/-1, and a +1/+1 during my attack phase do they simply cancel out or are there two sets of counters on the same card simultaneously? (the creature wouldn't eventually die from the -1/-1's because during the attack the +1/+1 negates the upkeep cost, is this correct?) It seems like I wouldn't be able to get 3x +1/+1's to be able to sac Ordeal of Thassa to draw cards if the counters are canceling themselves out.

Any clarification would be much appreciated!

[schweinefettmann]

I think the +3/+3 is on the aura and not given in counters (if unstable mutation dies, the boost goes away too).


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[schweinefettmann]

Whoops forgot question 2. I think the -1/-1 counter gets added first in upkeep, then gets removed with the attack declaration as you predicted.


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[kombatkiwi]

Unstable Mutation gives a creature +3/+3 and then each upkeep -1/-1 in the form of counters.
Question #1 - Does the +3/+3 effect of playing Unstable Mutation count as 3x +1/+1 counters?, and if so can playing it trigger the sac trigger for Ordeal of Thassa ?

Question #2 - If I have both Unstable Mutation & Ordeal of Thassa on a creature and each upkeep i'm putting a -1/-1, and a +1/+1 during my attack phase do they simply cancel out or are there two sets of counters on the same card simultaneously? (the creature wouldn't eventually die from the -1/-1's because during the attack the +1/+1 negates the upkeep cost, is this correct?) It seems like I wouldn't be able to get 3x +1/+1's to be able to sac Ordeal of Thassa to draw cards if the counters are canceling themselves out.

Any clarification would be much appreciated!

1. The +3/+3 from Unstable Mutation is not in the form of counters, it's no different to other auras with the same text like Oakenform for example.

2. There is a special rule for +1/+1 counters and -1/-1 counters that they do cancel out if they are on the same creature. If every turn you only add one +1/+1 counter and one -1/-1 counter then you will never sac your Ordeal of Thassa

[H]

Correct on both accounts. The +3/+3 given by Unstable Mutation is not in the form of counters.

Also, correct, there is no time where +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters co-exist for a "meaningful" amount of time on something, due to rule 121.3:

"121.3. If a permanent has both a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter on it, N +1/+1 and N -1/-1 counters are removed from it as a state-based action, where N is the smaller of the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it."