Future of MTG

[Matsu]

Hi all,

I did not know where to post this, so fill free to attached it to any other post.

I received this Video on YT from a friend who mostly play Modern.
I think it is an interesting interview I would love to see a similar discussion about Legacy. Maybe someone knows the Prof guy and can ask him to do a Legacy interview.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DUGg9PDnIY&t=15s

I hope you will find something for yourself.
Apart Legacy i also play Commander and Premodern so it was somehow good to listen to it.
Here are the topic discussed:

1. Master sets
2. Fetchlands
3. New old Legends
4. Signature spellbook
5. Commander sets
6. True name nemesis
7. New format incoming
8. New set incoming everyone will be talking

I think these are the most interesting parts for Legacy players in term of cardpool and format.

regards

[Ace/Homebrew]

Pretty sure the Professor reads his YouTube comments... You could ask him there.

[pettdan]

@Matsu: I didn't watch this interview but the Leaving a Legacy podcast have interviewed Gavin at least twice, quite nice episodes. Here's a link (you can find the podcast on other sites too if you need, this was what Google offered).

https://player.fm/series/leaving-a-legacy/ep-218-story-time-with-gavin

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I don't know what was more offensive, the professor's attitude or Gavin's suit.

[Mr. Safety]

@Matsu: I didn't watch this interview but the Leaving a Legacy podcast have interviewed Gavin at least twice, quite nice episodes. Here's a link (you can find the podcast on other sites too if you need, this was what Google offered).

https://player.fm/series/leaving-a-legacy/ep-218-story-time-with-gavin

I listened to the most recent one yesterday, it was very good. I recommend.


I don't know what was more offensive, the professor's attitude or Gavin's suit. Gavin's suit is epic and I've never had a reason to complain about the Professor. His most egregious misstep was when he went full-on SJW a couple times, and even that wasn't really offensive, just maybe a little overdramatic. Messages were on-point.

EDIT: I'm being sarcastic, he has never portrayed the negative 'sjw' persona. People who are familiar with him know how upstanding he is.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I listened to the most recent one yesterday, it was very good. I recommend.

Gavin's suit is epic and I've never had a reason to complain about the Professor. His most egregious misstep was when he went full-on SJW a couple times, and even that wasn't really offensive, just maybe a little overdramatic. Messages were on-point.

He went full on sjw? In that video? How fragile are you?

[Mr. Safety]

He went full on sjw? In that video? How fragile are you?

No, no, no, I was being sarcastic. It doesn't come off very well on the internet.

And I quote myself:


...and I've never had a reason to complain about the Professor.

[Captain Hammer]

Loved the video, love the professor.

As the Professor says, The future of Magic is Pauper

Seriously, every other format is becoming too expensive to be affordable for average people. Pauper is the only format where you can build a viable competitive deck for under $60. MTG is a game, average people balk at the idea of spending over $60 on a game.

[JosefK]

I love the discipline of WotC employers when it comes to not acknowledge the secondary market value of cards. It is so silly, but i understand that it's needed because of laws etc, but still, sooooo silly
"there is a lot of modern players who put a lot of time and effort and trading to get the cards they need for their decks"
We all know he/wotc actually thinks
"there is a lot of modern players who spent a lot of money to get the cards they need for their decks"
But just can't say it.

[H]

I love the discipline of WotC employers when it comes to not acknowledge the secondary market value of cards. It is so silly, but i understand that it's needed because of laws etc, but still, sooooo silly
"there is a lot of modern players who put a lot of time and effort and trading to get the cards they need for their decks"
We all know he/wotc actually thinks
"there is a lot of modern players who spent a lot of money to get the cards they need for their decks"
But just can't say it.

Well, yeah, but at least Gavin makes an actual effort to have his corporate double-speak not slap you in the face with it's blatancy. Honestly I think what he said is pretty reasonable, all things considered, and the perspective he seems to convey is actually a similar one that I tried to outline in previous posts I've had about "value" in products (which just got dismissed and lampooned because I wasn't succinct enough in my terminology, which, fair enough, but I do think the point has merit).

[Lemnear]

I love the discipline of WotC employers when it comes to not acknowledge the secondary market value of cards. It is so silly, but i understand that it's needed because of laws etc, but still, sooooo silly
"there is a lot of modern players who put a lot of time and effort and trading to get the cards they need for their decks"
We all know he/wotc actually thinks
"there is a lot of modern players who spent a lot of money to get the cards they need for their decks"
But just can't say it.

It's "kayfabe" at its best ... like watching Bruno Sammartino talking about wrestling. Everyone knows the truth but people in the biz try to keep up the illusion.

[Smuggo]

Loved the video, love the professor.

As the Professor says, The future of Magic is Pauper

Seriously, every other format is becoming too expensive to be affordable for average people. Pauper is the only format where you can build a viable competitive deck for under $60. MTG is a game, average people balk at the idea of spending over $60 on a game.

I don't think MtG is a game that has mass market appeal and doubt it ever will. It's a hobbyist pursuit ultimately and people who are really into it will eventually invest the money to play the formats they enjoy, just as people who get into shooting, sailing, games workshop or whatever else.

[thecrav]

This thread is called "Future of MTG"

The thread above it is called "The current state of Magic"

Anyone know where I can find the ghost of Magic Past to complete the trifecta?

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

No, no, no, I was being sarcastic. It doesn't come off very well on the internet.

my b

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

This thread is called "Future of MTG"

The thread above it is called "The current state of Magic"

Anyone know where I can find the ghost of Magic Past to complete the trifecta?

The ghosts of legacy past are in the banned list thread.

[Matsu]

The ghosts of legacy past are in the banned list thread.

Definitely.

Gavin keeps repeating we are listening the community but it takes time to react. I am curious if someone from Wotc/Hasbro is reading this forum? Legacy has a problem for a longer time especially with blue cards...
On the other side he keeps saying TNN was a mistake and this card should never work the way it is working, but no ban Hammer.

[Bithlord]

On the other side he keeps saying TNN was a mistake and this card should never work the way it is working, but no ban Hammer.

Legacy has this thing where people will openly admit that card are beyond the pale in power level but still allow them because "Legacy is the format for that". (See: Brainstorm). We can hate it all we want, and point out stupid bans all we want, but it's what legacy is.

[JosefK]

Definitely.

Gavin keeps repeating we are listening the community but it takes time to react. I am curious if someone from Wotc/Hasbro is reading this forum? Legacy has a problem for a longer time especially with blue cards...
On the other side he keeps saying TNN was a mistake and this card should never work the way it is working, but no ban Hammer.
Do you think the majority of legacy players agree with your idea that legacy has a problem with blue cards? I don't... and if I did I would probably not play legacy. I think this could be a really good reason for wizard to not do anything about the "problem".

[JDK]

Oh look, another "boohohoho Brainstorm" thread
I thought that's why we have the B&R one.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Oh look, another "boohohoho Brainstorm" thread
I thought that's why we have the B&R one.

Every thread should shit on brainstorm imo.

[thecrav]

Every thread should shit on brainstorm imo.

#FreeNedleeds

[Clark Kant]

Don't ban Brainstorm.

But please unban every single thing on the ban list thats not blue or an artifact.

Ehh, nevermind. Just ban brainstorm already from all formats. Thanks to the existance of fetchlands, Brainstorm is for all intents and purposes an Ancestral Recall.

[Bithlord]

Don't ban Brainstorm.

But please unban every single thing on the ban list thats not blue or an artifact.

Ehh, nevermind. Just ban brainstorm already from all formats. Thanks to the existance of fetchlands, Brainstorm is for all intents and purposes an Ancestral Recall.

Alternatively, you could ban fetchlands!

[H]

Alternatively, you could ban fetchlands!

Alternatively, you could play Modern!

[Bithlord]

Alternatively, you could play Modern!

I could, but that wouldn't really address the issue of fetchlands +brainstorm turning brainstorm into recall...[nore would it address a dislike of fetchlands].

[H]

I could, but that wouldn't really address the issue of fetchlands +brainstorm turning brainstorm into recall...[nore would it address a dislike of fetchlands].

Of course it's not, because it wasn't presented as if it would be, nor is it, a real "solution."

I said it to lampoon the fact that the proposal of banning Brainstorm and/or fetchlands is just as poor a "solution" as the suggestion of playing Modern (if not more so).

In both cases, you arrive at something that is distinctly not Legacy and is antithetical to the very idea and purpose of the format.

[MGB]

The future of Magic is just people playing and streaming Arena.

Secondary market card prices for either paper cards or MTGO objects will be completely irrelevant.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Of course it's not, because it wasn't presented as if it would be, nor is it, a real "solution."

I said it to lampoon the fact that the proposal of banning Brainstorm and/or fetchlands is just as poor a "solution" as the suggestion of playing Modern (if not more so).

In both cases, you arrive at something that is distinctly not Legacy and is antithetical to the very idea and purpose of the format.

Legacy without brainstorm is still legacy, as evidenced by all the t2 decks without brainstorm fighting for the right to be also ran.

[Teluin]

I could, but that wouldn't really address the issue of fetchlands +brainstorm turning brainstorm into recall...[nore would it address a dislike of fetchlands].

Play Old School :), it really is the best.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Play Old School :), it really is the best.

Why don't you just show me your binder instead? I'm sure you're very proud of your collection but we don't need to actually shuffle it up for you to show it to me.

[Teluin]

Why don't you just show me your binder instead? I'm sure you're very proud of your collection but we don't need to actually shuffle it up for you to show it to me.

I legitimately am not sure what you mean by this.

[Bithlord]

I legitimately am not sure what you mean by this.

I think what he means is "old school is not about playing a good format, it's about bragging about the rare and expensive cards you have". Not saying I agree with that [I have no idea how fun / not fun the format is], but that's what he's saying.

[Bithlord]

In both cases, you arrive at something that is distinctly not Legacy and is antithetical to the very idea and purpose of the format.

I *really* don't understand how fetchlands are essential to Legacy as a format. I get (although I disagree with) the concept that brainstorm is essential because it defines the feel of legacy. But fetchlands? Nah. They aren't even remotely essential to the format.

[taconaut]

I *really* don't understand how fetchlands are essential to Legacy as a format. I get (although I disagree with) the concept that brainstorm is essential because it defines the feel of legacy. But fetchlands? Nah. They aren't even remotely essential to the format.

I can't speak for the person to whom you're replying, but I personally do feel like the fetch/dual action contributes to the inherent feel of eternal formats (it has been interesting playing Gifts Storm in Modern, which recently moved to a fetchless manabase, because it feels strange playing only shocks/pains/fastlands/basics). I don't think it's the only part, or even the most compelling, but I do like how it feels in Legacy. I could see why you might not find that convincing, though.

The real reason fetchlands are essential to legacy is unrelated to gameplay. The Reserved list limits the available real estate for would-be Legacy players, and fetches are essential to the format's survival until it is removed, because fetches are, in many ways, de facto dual proxies sanctioned by Wizards. Unfortunately, the nature of their design results in some knock-on effects like additional cheap/frequent shuffles that empower cantrips, which some people dislike, but ultimately they make legacy possible to play.

[H]

I *really* don't understand how fetchlands are essential to Legacy as a format. I get (although I disagree with) the concept that brainstorm is essential because it defines the feel of legacy. But fetchlands? Nah. They aren't even remotely essential to the format.

It isn't that fetchlands (or Brainstorm for that matter) being essential, it's about Legacy being the place where you get to play the "most powerful" cards "allowable" as 4-ofs.

Legacy is defined by exclusion, by certain cards being decidedly and demonstrably better than others. To remove things from the format solely because they are the best option, in the name of some mystical and unachievable "diversity" you are doing violence to the very foundation of Legacy, that is, the principle of excellence. I don't want to play a format where things are banned just for being "too good."

Has that happened? Yes. Do I disagree with some things that are banned? Yes.

However, just banning something because it's the best option is a race to the bottom and a recipe for a shit format. Does Brainstorm hold cards out of competitive Legacy? Yes, as it should. Do fetchlands homogenize mana bases? Yes, as they should. Why in God's name would I want Coastal Tower in my fucking Legacy deck?

If you want a format where River Boas can win tournaments again, like the "good ol' days of Legacy" go make that format for people who want that. Legacy isn't a static nostalgia trip through Magic's history. It's the iterative distillation of the "best possible."

Honestly, so many people here have swallowed so much denigration of hierarchy and like post-Modernist philosophy so long, they can't even recognize it when they regurgitate it back up. Well, I'll always be here, singing the dirge of our fallen brother Deathrite Shaman, who payed the ultimate price for our post-Modern sins.

[Bithlord]

I can't speak for the person to whom you're replying, but I personally do feel like the fetch/dual action contributes to the inherent feel of eternal formats (it has been interesting playing Gifts Storm in Modern, which recently moved to a fetchless manabase, because it feels strange playing only shocks/pains/fastlands/basics). I don't think it's the only part, or even the most compelling, but I do like how it feels in Legacy. I could see why you might not find that convincing, though.

The real reason fetchlands are essential to legacy is unrelated to gameplay. The Reserved list limits the available real estate for would-be Legacy players, and fetches are essential to the format's survival until it is removed, because fetches are, in many ways, de facto dual proxies sanctioned by Wizards. Unfortunately, the nature of their design results in some knock-on effects like additional cheap/frequent shuffles that empower cantrips, which some people dislike, but ultimately they make legacy possible to play.

If there was an answer to the reserved Dual problem, would you feel the same? If "snow duals" had come into being, and we had easy access to 4X of every dual for sub $50, would the fetchlands still feel like something legacy needed?

I don't think either fetchlands or the cantrip suite are broken, but I certainly feel like the combination of the two is overpowered and would like to see it addressed somehow.

[Watersaw]

Honestly, so many people here have swallowed so much denigration of hierarchy and like post-Modernist philosophy so long, they can't even recognize it when they regurgitate it back up. Well, I'll always be here, singing the dirge of our fallen brother Deathrite Shaman, who payed the ultimate price for our post-Modern sins.

I'll take the bait just this once.
Grandstanding about "excellence" has no place when the concept of game balance is in play. I too long for a day where I can play Lotus and Necropotence into two copies of Mind's Desire.

[taconaut]

If there was an answer to the reserved Dual problem, would you feel the same? If "snow duals" had come into being, and we had easy access to 4X of every dual for sub $50, would the fetchlands still feel like something legacy needed?

I don't think either fetchlands or the cantrip suite are broken, but I certainly feel like the combination of the two is overpowered and would like to see it addressed somehow.

Yes, personally, I would, but I would totally play in a Legacy that has fetchlands banned, too. I'm generally pretty easy (that's why you'll see me advocate against bans in the B&R thread and for unbans - I think for the most part the format is good).

I suspect fetchlands would still be widely played if they just reprinted duals because of their functionality with cantrips, but in a world where they reprinted duals and banned fetchlands, I think that format could be interesting too. Seems like Moon Stompy would get better in that context, which I wouldn't be a fan of, but I'm sure I could deal. Probably end up playing more Elves or Miracles or something.

[H]

I'll take the bait just this once.
Grandstanding about "excellence" has no place when the concept of game balance is in play. I too long for a day where I can play Lotus and Necropotence into two copies of Mind's Desire.

What is grandstanding about it? You might object (and perhaps rightly so) about the operationalization of the term, but it still fits. Lotus is unfit to be a 4-of, is does Necropotence and Mind's Desire. If you want to make a case that they are fine, you can go ahead and do that. What you imagine though, I'd guess, is that we should have a clear, empirical, objectively quantized method of determining what is alright as a 4-of and what is not. Such a thing would never and likely should never exist, even if it were possible.

It's unclear to me how to have a conversation with you though if you think that Black Lotus and Brainstorm are equivalent is any meaningful way though.

That being said, if cards that are the most efficient and most powerful for what they do aren't what define Legacy than what does? I guess if you don't want to call it "excellence" that's fine, how about a hierarchy of power-level, or hierarchy of playablity?

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I legitimately am not sure what you mean by this.

Every old school deck I've seen is just a collection of some of the most expensive cards available, and the decks themselves are just vehicles to put them together. If you want me to see your alpha Serra Angel, and some moxen you happen to own just show them to me. I don't need to shuffle up a deck no reasonable person can afford to see it.

[Lemnear]

Every old school deck I've seen is just a collection of some of the most expensive cards available, and the decks themselves are just vehicles to put them together. If you want me to see your alpha Serra Angel, and some moxen you happen to own just show them to me. I don't need to shuffle up a deck no reasonable person can afford to see it.

It's the geek version of slowly driving a highend supercar along a boulevard. Quite literally a vehicle to show off the money you think you can waste on toys.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

What’s the point of owning those things if you aren’t going to use them to swing your dick around?

[NecroPoppins]

LOVE the salt in the past couple pages. Love when people assume, if they cant afford something, that anyone who does is either spending beyond their means or doing it to show off. It's honestly part of what makes Old School so sweet. It's not rubbing it in someones face, it's knowing that people with issues are going to get really triggered, project and get jealous, while normal folks can sit down and enjoy old cards with me. Win win.

Anyone who says old school is about showing off has never been to an event either. Its the most beer and pretzel form of magic there is. Most tournaments end with half the people too drunk to play.

[Teluin]

Every old school deck I've seen is just a collection of some of the most expensive cards available, and the decks themselves are just vehicles to put them together. If you want me to see your alpha Serra Angel, and some moxen you happen to own just show them to me. I don't need to shuffle up a deck no reasonable person can afford to see it.

Honestly man, I suggested it because it's such a great format and it's the only non-Standard constructed one without any fetch lands as he asked.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

LOVE the salt in the past couple pages. Love when people assume, if they cant afford something, that anyone who does is either spending beyond their means or doing it to show off. It's honestly part of what makes Old School so sweet. It's not rubbing it in someones face, it's knowing that people with issues are going to get really triggered, project and get jealous, while normal folks can sit down and enjoy old cards with me. Win win.

Anyone who says old school is about showing off has never been to an event either. Its the most beer and pretzel form of magic there is. Most tournaments end with half the people too drunk to play.

I hate it when I go to a beer drinking contest and a magic tournament breaks out

[Lemnear]

LOVE the salt in the past couple pages. Love when people assume, if they cant afford something, that anyone who does is either spending beyond their means or doing it to show off.

And there you are assuming that it's a matter of lacking money and not one of refusing to spend it on a solved format. Given the fuzz people were making about blackborder and original printings only for '93/'94, it's hard to deny that showing off is a significant part of the appeal.

[Teluin]

And there you are assuming that it's a matter of lacking money and not one of refusing to spend it on a solved format. Given the fuzz people were making about blackborder and original printings only for '93/'94, it's hard to deny that showing off is a significant part of the appeal.

Every MtG variant has people who like to pimp out their decks though. I understand your point but at its core, OS is just a casual way to play that encompasses nostalgia and good times. Anyway, I didn't think my post would make people argue (I know I know, this is the internet), I was merely suggesting the person might consider it.

[thecrav]

I hate it when I go to a beer drinking contest and a magic tournament breaks out

Oh man, you would love these Magic tournaments that these guys put on in Houston. Shit, they give free beer to first place (of the magic tournament)

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

LOVE the salt in the past couple pages. Love when people assume, if they cant afford something, that anyone who does is either spending beyond their means or doing it to show off. It's honestly part of what makes Old School so sweet. It's not rubbing it in someones face, it's knowing that people with issues are going to get really triggered, project and get jealous, while normal folks can sit down and enjoy old cards with me. Win win.

Anyone who says old school is about showing off has never been to an event either. Its the most beer and pretzel form of magic there is. Most tournaments end with half the people too drunk to play.

Thank God you're incapable of introspection, otherwise you might have not written this gem.

[NecroPoppins]

Thank God you're incapable of introspection, otherwise you might have not written this gem.

Epic projection.

[Dice_Box]

Epic projection.
No, he had it on point. Your a tosser and its funny.

[TsumiBand]

Old School

normal folks

wut

[pettdan]

I have a couple of mundane reflections or musings on this discussion, bear with me.

1. The topic of the thread is the future of magic, just a gentle reminder. There is no real meaning in discussing card games anyway, one could argue, so I guess any discussion is fine really, anywhere. Discuss what you want, wherever you want, but consider if it's useful to use different threads as a practical tool for separating discussions. I'm mostly referring to the B&R discussion. However, I guess I don't follow my own recommendations with this post.

2. Most Legacy players don't get to criticize Old School players for playing a ridiculously expensive format. Many Legacy players enjoy pimping their deck, spending a lot of resources doing it for the pure enjoyment of having nice cards. A nice part about MtG is actually that you get the pleasure of owning things, I don't get the same joy out of other purchases that I get from buying nice pieces of this collectible card game. I'll even argue that it's fantastic how this game makes people totally uninterested in art very interested in the art presented on the cards. This cultivating aspect is really attractive to me, and this is perhaps made apparent from another perspective in these forums: by bringing people to have discussions and interact who otherwise might have chosen less involving pastimes. So, I wouldn't criticize other sub groups of players for enjoying collectability of trading cards, it is a nice aspect of the game.

3. I must confess to learning a couple of new words in this thread, I really enjoy that. Hmm, this is actually an extension of (2).

4. The discussion on projections and counter-projections was a bit hard to follow, I'm not sure who is projecting what on whom now, and I still don't know what post-modernist philosophy is, but I'm getting very curious about it. It surfaced on a recent lunch with some colleagues, it appears to be a popular topic of conversation. I guess this is also just an extension of (2).

You all continue now.

[H]

4. The discussion on projections and counter-projections was a bit hard to follow, I'm not sure who is projecting what on whom now, and I still don't know what post-modernist philosophy is, but I'm getting very curious about it. It surfaced on a recent lunch with some colleagues, it appears to be a popular topic of conversation. I guess this is also just an extension of (2).

You all continue now.

Well, in my not-defense, I was wrong in my nomenclature. But hey, we can only know what we know at the time. In reality, there is more to it. It's really more of a neo-Marxist sort of sentiment, although that doesn't really fit either. I'd recommend you just look into stuff yourself, because any thing I tell you is almost certainly wrong, mainly because I don't actually know and am only trying to learn myself. I know I'm stupid, but I am trying to become less so.

The long and the short of my point though, is that everyone has some sort of fabled level of "diversity" they imagine should exist in Legacy. What that is, in any quantifiable manner is unknown, even subjectively. So, there is a huge, undefined, grey area between an absurdly open format, where even Grizzly Bears is playable and the absurdly constricted format where there is literally only one deck that is competitive. What is in between is extremes an unclear morass of subjective interpretive schema masquerading as objective facts.

Not that there aren't objective facts. But there is no clear, intelligible way to arrive from those facts to the "absolute" value of "appropriate diversity." Because that's exactly what diversity is, it's a value, not a fact. (Note, that is value, as a noun, as in "the regard that something is held to deserve; the importance, worth, or usefulness of something." not value as a numerical indicator, or the like.)

So, what we really have here is essentially what Hume describes as the "Is-Ought distinction." Nested inside that, is what Kant talks about in his Critique of Pure Reason.

So, we can easy describe what is. For example, what is the current state of the Legacy metagame, vis-à-vis representation of certain cards. What we argue over, ceaselessly is the ought, what ought to be the state of the metagame? Nothing, really, of the is defines what ought necessarily should be. What determines that, of course, is our value structure. Do we prioritize color diversity? Strategic diversity? Card diversity? What? There is no necessary way in which we must structure our "ontological Legacy format," so to speak. That is to say, what, if any, hierarchy should we have in Legacy?

We spice this, essentially, with the problem of what Kant, rather indecipherable to dumb-dumbs like me, realizes in The Critique of Pure Reason, is that we can never actually eliminate our subjective perspective even in attempting to apply "pure reason." Because, essentially, our brains implicitly function by taking in facts and subjecting them to values. This is now found as an absolute fact of psychology. For example, inattentional blindness. Your eyes might "see" something, in the fact of light hitting them, but your brain, assigning value, simply does not attend and so you don't notice it. This is part of the root of confirmation bias. We have tons of fact available, but what we focus on, what we give value, are the things that then map to our inherent values.

What does all this mean? Well, it means that facts aren't what will inform us what an "ideal Legacy format" looks like. It won't even inform us of what Legacy is. What the Legacy format should look like, ought to look like, is a matter of values, not a matter of fact.

So, if you want to know why we bicker so much about all this, is the same reason why people bicker about politics and anything else that are really matters of values and not matters of facts. Although, people try to masquerade such things as matters of facts. We do this because we generally imagine ourselves rational, empiricists. But are aren't, at least, not to the degree we'd like to think.

So, what's the "Future of MTG?" Well, the future of Legacy is people (hopefully) realizing what the foundational nature of Legacy should be. Or at least, asking the right question.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

It's really more of a neo-Marxist .
The history of all hitherto existing formats is the history of metagame struggles
-Marol Marx

[pettdan]

Reading this after a couple of beers wasn't easy, and I somewhat ironically think I owe you a beer for this long answer, thanks! This is btw a good topic for a discussion over a beer, I'll bring it to our next weekly after legacy beer.. I got the point at the end, and actually argued similarly last spring I think, I agree, but I didn't know it was a post-modernist view. Now I have an introduction for looking into it, awesome!

[Purple Blood]

I *really* don't understand how fetchlands are essential to Legacy as a format. I get (although I disagree with) the concept that brainstorm is essential because it defines the feel of legacy. But fetchlands? Nah. They aren't even remotely essential to the format.

Without fetch lands decks will end up costing 2-3x as much as they do now due to increase need for duals. Pretty essential from a practical perspective.

[Lemnear]

Without fetch lands decks will end up costing 2-3x as much as they do now due to increase need for duals. Pretty essential from a practical perspective.

This logic was debuked at least 4 times in the last 5 months. No need to repeat the same old nonsense claiming that everyone would just run 12+ Duals and Blood Moon isnt a card at all.

[bruizar]

And there you are assuming that it's a matter of lacking money and not one of refusing to spend it on a solved format. Given the fuzz people were making about blackborder and original printings only for '93/'94, it's hard to deny that showing off is a significant part of the appeal.

It's only solved if you have the money to buy the optimal deck. That's the whole point of the format! It used to be very difficult to acquire cards because ABU/ANAQLG weren't widely available! You would have to play with what you have! That's why old school is a format of those who love the old feel of Magic, not of spikes and netdeckers. Basically, everyone is playing suboptimal decks. Old school players aren't all super wealthy lawyers and technocrats.

[bruizar]

It isn't that fetchlands (or Brainstorm for that matter) being essential, it's about Legacy being the place where you get to play the "most powerful" cards "allowable" as 4-ofs.

Legacy is defined by exclusion, by certain cards being decidedly and demonstrably better than others. To remove things from the format solely because they are the best option, in the name of some mystical and unachievable "diversity" you are doing violence to the very foundation of Legacy, that is, the principle of excellence. I don't want to play a format where things are banned just for being "too good."


No, legacy is the bastardized version of Vintage for those who couldn't afford it. Then, as time passed, the bastard son of Vintage became more and more reminiscent to the father it so hated. Expensive, Solved, Exclusive and Slowly Declining.

"it's about Legacy being the place where you get to play the "most powerful" cards "allowable" as 4-ofs."

Certainly not the most powerful cards.

I'm all for a ban on fetchlands. Let fetchlands belong to modern, where duals without drawbacks and efficient cantrips do not exist. Fetchlands are the biggest violator of magic rules, worst than the Dredge mechanic. Why? Because it completely ravishes the color pie, turns cantrips into Ancestral Recalls, and makes it too easy to turn decks into 60-most efficient cards without any drawback.

The end result will be a format defined by 1CC and 2CC cards vs Chalice of the Void, the same way Vintage is defined by Workshop/Bazaar/Control.

That's why diversity is important.

[Lemnear]

It's only solved if you have the money to buy the optimal deck. That's the whole point of the format! It used to be very difficult to acquire cards because ABU/ANAQLG weren't widely available! You would have to play with what you have! That's why old school is a format of those who love the old feel of Magic, not of spikes and netdeckers. Basically, everyone is playing suboptimal decks. Old school players aren't all super wealthy lawyers and technocrats.

I think you are expanding the arguments by calling it a literal pay-to-win format in addition to being a solved one. Neither is really attractive and if it's for pure nostalgia, i'd rather play with Championship decks on my end.

I am also not sure if people dropping ~1400$ on single moxen, without cutting back in other aspects of their lives, qualify as average joe in terms of financial aspects. Maybe that's just a certain view i gained by seeing a lot of poverty every day on my way to work. I see us folks able to spend that much money on cardboard in addition to car, apartment, time with friends, family, partners, vacation, etc as absolutely privileged

[jandax]

I think what he means is "old school is not about playing a good format, it's about bragging about the rare and expensive cards you have". Not saying I agree with that [I have no idea how fun / not fun the format is], but that's what he's saying.As an avid OS player, the brags are in the deck you shuffle up. Netdecking OS is prohibitively expensive, even for a hobbyist standard on the MTG scale. The card pool is small, the strategies are solved. But people flock to the format because of the nostalgia, because it carries a completely different atmosphere than all other formats; no matter what your budget is, you're in the gang because you share a real passion for the old cardboard with others around you. Winning is fine and competitiveness is a healthy barometer of any format, but the real difference comes down to losing. In all other formats you go find your buddies and bitch about bad beats. You lose in OS, you are with your buddies already and you grab a beer for the next round. Elitist behavior is a myth. Sure, there is prestige in owning 1,000$/€+ singles and playing with them. The drive is doing what you always wanted when you were a kid, and doing that with a group of intelligent and very like minded people sets the format miles apart from anything else.

You clarified the "bragging" format assumption right. It sure feels that way outside looking in. My point is that the comradery is what makes it a good format. Look at every other tournament you've been too; there's cliques of friends scattered about, almost every opponent is unknown, people sometimes lie cheat or complain. In OS, everyone is a friend and they all get together to organize a tournament together. There's a break for lunch. Often a creative side event for those who didn't top8. There's adult beverages. Its a kitchen table atmosphere.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[Fox]

I don't think lauding a format for being casual really helps you make a point on a forum for a competitive format.

[jandax]

Maaaaybe I was still on topic without saying it: the future of MTG is less about tournament structure and circuits but more about groups of people who come together to support it.

There will be a time in the future where the economy can't support this game. It will die. And the only thing (regarding MTG) left will be any people geographically close enough to have leisure time and means to game together.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[Megadeus]

Old School is just so boring from a gameplay perspective. I think that's why I don't like it

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

I don't think lauding a format for being casual really helps you make a point on a forum for a competitive format.

https://morbotron.com/video/S04E11/9sdVzcrktVmNPHs6Nqj9q6DJYpQ=.gif

Legacy can only barely be called a competitive format at this point.

[JBlaze]

Did WOTC just stop doing Grand Prix coverage and not announce anything about it? Football seasons over thought I would tune into see what was up with Modern after the Ironworks ban. No coverage of GP Toronto not really finding any info about it except that they are going to have coverage for the Mythic Championship at Magic Fest Cleveland. God who the fuck is in charge of naming shit? Why is it in fucking Cleveland? I guess "Play the Game see the World" is officially a relic of a bygone era.

[CptHaddock]

Did WOTC just stop doing Grand Prix coverage and not announce anything about it? Football seasons over thought I would tune into see what was up with Modern after the Ironworks ban. No coverage of GP Toronto not really finding any info about it except that they are going to have coverage for the Mythic Championship at Magic Fest Cleveland. God who the fuck is in charge of naming shit? Why is it in fucking Cleveland? I guess "Play the Game see the World" is officially a relic of a bygone era.

I don't know if they made an official announcement but they responded to someone on twitter, apparently it's on CFB if they want to do coverage or not. In tyool 2019 you can generally just assume that if it's the worst possible decision it's probably the decision that WOTC made.

https://twitter.com/MagicEsports/status/1093921449549586432

[CptHaddock]

Imagine having a goose that shits out golden eggs and actively going: "bad goose, you shouldn't be shitting out these eggs made of 24 karat gold! Whatever will I do with these eggs???" Fear not though, that is just the WOTC way.

[Purple Blood]

This logic was debuked at least 4 times in the last 5 months. No need to repeat the same old nonsense claiming that everyone would just run 12+ Duals and Blood Moon isnt a card at all.

Can you link me to the debunking? Genuinely curious. I think what I said is a good assumption to make. I suppose we would never truly know unless it was implemented.

[ESG]

Maaaaybe I was still on topic without saying it: the future of MTG is less about tournament structure and circuits but more about groups of people who come together to support it.

There will be a time in the future where the economy can't support this game. It will die. And the only thing (regarding MTG) left will be any people geographically close enough to have leisure time and means to game together.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

I agree with you, jandax. The most predominant form of Magic is kitchen table Magic, and it's been that way for ages. EDH/Commander has a massive following. Magic is large enough, old enough, and complex enough to birth endless variations. All it takes is a critical number of people to agree that a certain format is fun for it to be a thing, and more can join in. Pauper has grown. The Internet has helped Old School thrive, and it could do the same for formats yet to be designed. I have a friend who designs versions of the Battle Box format, and I based my own box on what I liked from that gameplay. I bring my box to Legacy events and jam games before and after, and I have yet to find someone who didn't enjoy the experience. I was commissioned to build a box by a former playtesting partner, and we play every time we get together. He loves having a way to connect to the game even though he's a father now and hasn't otherwise engaged with Magic in half a decade. And, yes, one day WOTC will shut down or be carved up and sold, and there will be no more new cards produced by WOTC. But I definitely believe the game will go on. It's too important to too many people to actually die.

[Lemnear]

Can you link me to the debunking? Genuinely curious. I think what I said is a good assumption to make. I suppose we would never truly know unless it was implemented.

Does a picture of Blood Moon, Wasteland, B2B, Life from the Loam or PoP suit or do you insist i dig through this thread for the several discussions on this topic? There are dozens of cards punishing greedy manabases to the point i consider it at least evidence that 12+ duals is an unlikely successful standard for such a format. Ergo the claim that prices would double/triple is also no real point of argument because it roots on the previous bold metagame assumption which is unlikely to happen compared to decks cutting down to 2 or 2.5 colors instead. For me it's like reading the anti-ban arguments in regards to DRS, claiming reanimator would take over the format, ignoring any possible metagame reaction to losing the maindeckable yardhate.

[Dice_Box]

If you cut fetches you push up the amount of Duals needed to play, put pressure on people to gain more lands that they may be unable to afford and push others from the format.

It's ok though, it's not like duals coat as much as a decent used car.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

The history of all hitherto existing formats is the history of metagame struggles
-Marol Marx

No wait, I thought of a better one:
"We have planned the next five sets, a five set plan." Chairman Maro

[bruizar]

If you cut fetches you push up the amount of Duals needed to play, put pressure on people to gain more lands that they may be unable to afford and push others from the format.

It's ok though, it's not like duals coat as much as a decent used car.

incorrect, Yoiu won't be able to play 3 and 4 color decks solely based on duals. Better toplay 2 color decks and play shock duals / fastland in addition to 4 og duals.

[Lemnear]

incorrect, Yoiu won't be able to play 3 and 4 color decks solely based on duals. Better toplay 2 color decks and play shock duals / fastland in addition to 4 og duals.

This.

It baffles be that people think they can just keep playing their 3 to 3.5 color decks just by raising the dual count, not even remotely considering how the lack of shuffle effects after each cantrip and non-basic land hate in general would fuck these greedy manabases over.

[Purple Blood]

Does a picture of Blood Moon, Wasteland, B2B, Life from the Loam or PoP suit or do you insist i dig through this thread for the several discussions on this topic? There are dozens of cards punishing greedy manabases to the point i consider it at least evidence that 12+ duals is an unlikely successful standard for such a format. Ergo the claim that prices would double/triple is also no real point of argument because it roots on the previous bold metagame assumption which is unlikely to happen compared to decks cutting down to 2 or 2.5 colors instead. For me it's like reading the anti-ban arguments in regards to DRS, claiming reanimator would take over the format, ignoring any possible metagame reaction to losing the maindeckable yardhate.

So in other words, its just your opinion. Mana bases are already greedy as fuck. What would happen, in my opinion, is less decks would splash for a third color. Miracles would be UW but it would also play 4 Tundra instead of 2. It would probably also play some number of Hallowed Fountain. But who knows if the deck even functions without shuffles from fetches - it may have to start running shitty cards like Evolving Wilds or Ash Barrens just to get shuffles for Brainstorm.

True three color decks would also still exist. Grixis would still be a deck. It will also have to run 4 Volcanics and 4 Underground Seas. It may even have to run Badlands.

D&T and Lands would get a huge boost with people not being able to fetch basics. Maybe you can argue those type of decks would become so dominant three color decks would die off completely. But I doubt it.

In the end, duals would spike crazy even if three color decks get pushed out. There would be increased demand and more of them would be needed. Even 2 color decks would need a full playset of duals. Not many run that right now. Deck costs would double at least.

[tescrin]

I typed a long post; but the most interesting point is that Mtg will continue becoming decentralized; it's already happened a ton.

The format is healthy =>
- 6+ months in and it's not solved and the big decks seem viable. It looks to me largely the same diversity/deck archs as there were 6+ years ago (just after DRS entered the format.)
- prices are sustained/increasing (at larger than inflation rates) => market demand for the format
- LGS still seem to have people going regularly trying things out. In our case, our LGS double the number of locals (to 2 a week) *successfully* a few years back. You can still go either of those days and reliably fire off the tournament with fresh faces and grizzeled veterans
- MTGO grinders still exist and grind all the time
- people are actively chatting about stuff*

*But, it's already been largely decentralized:
- everyone sprouted discord channels for their decks; meaning forums like this are no longer a hub except for old crumudgins
- SCG has lost significant market share, ability to produce content that people care about, ability to perform expensive tournament circuits etc.
- streamers and youtube channels sprouted for individuals who pilot the decks frequently/successfully
- LGS stores created their own invitationals and whatnot, rather than having to rent out giant centers for the tournaments

The doomsayers are as wrong as they always have been and haven't made a successful prediction yet. Duals never crashed. non-blue still exists. 3CMC is played as much as it ever was (SCM, lily, KComm, moon/b2b/choke, TNN, etc.) Chalice didn't take over. Combo didn't take over. Control didn't take over.

When I show up in wintertime to a LGS on a Thursday and there's still a dozen people playing legacy; that's *better* than it was 7 years ago IME. That's better than it was 4 years ago. You can keep trying to ban cards that people like, you can keep telling everyone that the house is burning down; but according to the doomsayers it's been "burning" for 7 years and has only become (albeit mildly) more successful.

[Dice_Box]

incorrect, Yoiu won't be able to play 3 and 4 color decks solely based on duals. Better toplay 2 color decks and play shock duals / fastland in addition to 4 og duals.
Sure, and the people who have two of a dual for their deck, they do what? Sit on their hands? Right now you can get away with playing fewer duals and more fetches. Some decks take this to an extreme playing very few.

Here, let's make this simple. Your playing RUG. Now you suddenly need Shocks and two new Duals. Sucks to be you. Your playing UW... That's two new Tundra for you. Your playing some silly Phoenix deck, cough up mate.

Even if you drop colours, how many people own 4 duals? I know a lot do, but not newer players, not those who sold what they weren't using. You just shit on them and tell them to deal.

Ban fetches, you push up the price and watch people leave. As someone who plays decks more or less built around Wasteland, sure, whatever. I can live with that. But that's not fair for everyone else. Because as demand goes up for those needed one or two more duals, the price would sky-rocket and leave us with a lot of people priced out.

If you really think banning fetches would make this format more accessible and cheaper your out of your mind. I'm not arguing against if it would make game play better, it very well might, but you can have stunning game play with only 3 players and well, jokes on you.


This.

It baffles be that people think they can just keep playing their 3 to 3.5 color decks just by raising the dual count, not even remotely considering how the lack of shuffle effects after each cantrip and non-basic land hate in general would fuck these greedy manabases over.
Wasteland would fuck the mana bases, not the lack of shuffling. Jund does fine in Modern, as does Grixis (when it was a thing) just to name two.

You can play more off the wall lands with your duals and get a mana base going. Checklands, Fastlands, maybe a filter or two. But these are all secondary to the main puppies, the totally painless (Aside from you wallet) duals. So what do you look at first when building? Well.

I mean the fucked up mana bases you thinking about do exist in Modern. Normally Fastlands. I don't see how people would have issues playing their 3 colour decks but for the lack of funds.

Lem, flatly. You are wrong.

[bruizar]

with fetchlands, duals are much more important because you have certainty that you will hit that land. Without fetchlands, duals will not be as important because the odds that you are drawing into them are much much lower. It's more important to have a decent complete mana base than to have 2 extra duals, especially when you can't fetch for them every single opening turn. In other words, opening with a dual is easy when you're running 10 fetchlands, not so easy with only 2-4 duals. Therefore, just run shocks, fastlands and perhaps even painlands if you want to splash into some eldrazi stuff.

More shocklands means more burn and death's shadow, means less thoughtseize, means more combo and that means more chalice of the void.

[Fox]

@bruizar you'd see more 2c deck identities, and would also see some archetypes able to leverage Mirage Fetches. Brainstorm usage would drop precipitously, and we'd immediately see Hymn ripped away from SCM and Kcomm (which has needed to happen since SDT was banned). You would see a drop in Delver (particularly non-UR). The clear winners are R/G Lands and DnT (and other Vial decks); Ancient Tomb/Chalice would have fewer decks to feed on. What would likely happen with Tomb/Chalice is that mono-Red TurboMoon/Rabble would take over and hate Eldrazi Stompy right out of the format. In terms of mono-Red Turbomoon's position vs the rest of the format, they would make it much easier to hate on Ancient Tomb since it would have one best presentation. You still have to contend with R/G Lands, DnT, a UW deck (using slow-Fetches), and all the other 2c winners - I'm not sure if Burn, Turbomoon, and Death's Shadow would be that well positioned. ANT is also probably just fine being UB, though TES would be dead. Belcher is probably better situated than your examples? [Edit: probably Pox as well]. I'll tag on one last winner you'd have to have a good matchup against: LED Dredge

[JosefK]

I typed a long post; but the most interesting point is that Mtg will continue becoming decentralized; it's already happened a ton.


Just wanted to say that I agree completely with everything you said. I think it's unfortunate that the decentralization is happening and that forums like this is mostly relegated to be a ground for a small but vocal group of complainers.

Other than that, abandon the RL plz, prices is the only problem that legacy has.

[Matsu]

Even if they ban Onslaught/Zendikar fetch We still have the Mirage fetchland.
At least i used to play with them back in the days and they are much fair then Onslaught/Zendikar.

https://i.imgur.com/84pgaVb.jpg

Decks will still be available just one turn slower.

Funny thing i was watching a little the CFB Legacy somewhere in the US. Funny chat interaction :)

https://i.imgur.com/MWvS597.png

Btw i am still having a pint every round playing legacy. It gets difficult after 5 rounds ;)

[bruizar]

Even if they ban Onslaught/Zendikar fetch We still have the Mirage fetchland.
At least i used to play with them back in the days and they are much fair then Onslaught/Zendikar.

https://i.imgur.com/84pgaVb.jpg

Decks will still be available just one turn slower.

Funny thing i was watching a little the CFB Legacy somewhere in the US. Funny chat interaction :)

https://i.imgur.com/MWvS597.png

Btw i am still having a pint every round playing legacy. It gets difficult after 5 rounds ;)

Don't worry. Gavin Verhey went on record at Tolarian Community College stating they were not going to ban fetchlands in eternal.

Somewhere buried here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DUGg9PDnIY

[Matsu]

Don't worry. Gavin Verhey went on record at Tolarian Community College stating they were not going to ban fetchlands in eternal.

Somewhere buried here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DUGg9PDnIY

Yeah, i know that but you can still have hope ;) In the meantime they can try to fix the other issues.

[Lemnear]

Sure, and the people who have two of a dual for their deck, they do what? Sit on their hands? Right now you can get away with playing fewer duals and more fetches. Some decks take this to an extreme playing very few.

Here, let's make this simple. Your playing RUG. Now you suddenly need Shocks and two new Duals. Sucks to be you. Your playing UW... That's two new Tundra for you. Your playing some silly Phoenix deck, cough up mate.

Yeah trading your 2 Volcanics for like 2 Tundras will sure double/triple your deck price like claimed./s



Even if you drop colours, how many people own 4 duals? I know a lot do, but not newer players, not those who sold what they weren't using. You just shit on them and tell them to deal.

No new player will be able to build a proper Legacy deck from scratch anyways due to prices we have for years. Trying to make a financial point about 2 unlimited duals, while Tabernacle are paywalling certain decks and multicolor decks are 2k+, is hard to be taken serious



Ban fetches, you push up the price and watch people leave. As someone who plays decks more or less built around Wasteland, sure, whatever. I can live with that. But that's not fair for everyone else. Because as demand goes up for those needed one or two more duals, the price would sky-rocket and leave us with a lot of people priced out.

People are priced out for years from simply picking up Legacy and horrible format Management, lacking support and staleness, which Fetches are a big part of, have driven Legacy into the ground already. Maintaining a solved while unaffordable state isnt going to save Legacy. Potentially raising the demand for non ABU Duals, while taking pressure from ABUs due to less colors per deck and breaking the cantrip/fetch chokehold might be able to do so



If you really think banning fetches would make this format more accessible and cheaper your out of your mind. I'm not arguing against if it would make game play better, it very well might, but you can have stunning game play with only 3 players and well, jokes on you.

Depends. If you want to play 3.5c decks you have to run duals and fetches and that will be more than 2 duals, mind you. We dont know if destabilized multicolor manabases wouldnt make other alternatives in the cardpool more viable.



Wasteland would fuck the mana bases, not the lack of shuffling. Jund does fine in Modern, as does Grixis (when it was a thing) just to name two.

Lack of shuffling nerfs the cantrip shells. That's the point.



You can play more off the wall lands with your duals and get a mana base going. Checklands, Fastlands, maybe a filter or two. But these are all secondary to the main puppies, the totally painless (Aside from you wallet) duals. So what do you look at first when building? Well.

To repeat myself: Which of the decks in question runs only 2 duals and would have to buy many more to triple the decks price?



Lem, flatly. You are wrong.

I think your monetary arguments based on new players, for a format inaccessible to new players due to prices for years, isnt a convincing one. Its like blaming the additional costs of tires as a reason college graduates cant afford Ferraris.


Don't worry. Gavin Verhey went on record at Tolarian Community College stating they were not going to ban fetchlands in eternal.

Somewhere buried here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DUGg9PDnIY

Of course they wont, just as they wont ban Brainstorm or Ponder. Legacy will stay the way it is until nobody plays it due to boredom and/or being priced out.

[menloe]

Btw i am still having a pint every round playing legacy. It gets difficult after 5 rounds ;)

I think this is the correct way to play MTG. I like to get half shitfaced myself.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I think this is the correct way to play MTG. I like to get half shitfaced myself.

Uhhhh some of us need to go home after the tournament.

[CptHaddock]

Uhhhh some of us need to go home after the tournament.

Smh, owning/renting a home is why you don't have money to play old school. Like us cool kids.