4 Card Blind

[PJim]

We can keep this as a basis, sort of. The current rules already sort of work like this, except that players never get to choose a number.

To be clear, the "player" picking a number is the fictional optimal pilot, not the deck's submitter. The picking a number is just how shortcutting loops works in Magic, as in the tournament rules WoP posted above. Loops can only ever go infinite when they're completely inescapable (like 3 Oblivion Rings with no other targets), otherwise you have to choose a number. Your reasoning about optimal plays overriding loops isn't perfect, because a player with Nomads en-Kor who's going to lose could optimally just activate his 0 cost ability forever. Thus the distinction is necessary (assuming we agree that's not a good outcome.)

This not being clear did affect the scoring for WoP taking infinite turns, and raises questions for two decks this week. I imagine it has probably been relevant before with Rishadan Port or a tapping creature being relied upon infinitely for a draw, or someone paying indefinitely for Tabernacle to keep a blocker up. I think there's agreement that players shouldn't be forced to end loops in those situations, but that's not the conclusion we came to with WoP's deck last time.

I'd ask that something on this be added to the rules on the first post, as this is a difference to the regular Magic rules.

[dte]

I do not see why we could not go for draws when it is a loop involving turns from each player?
Otherwise it is hard to say who has to break the loop in many cases.
For instance if we take Max vs Tylert this round, it is a draw when Tylert is OTP, no one can kill the other. Should Tylert attack with nexus into drake, losing field and the game? Or should maxx attack with drake uselessly into field, to receive poison counters from nexus?


It is not a question of mimicking clasical turnaments rules, but have the best one for 4CB. I think the basic land of our choice as a replacement for an illegal choice is not that great (there were two rounds were submitting black lotus instead of a land would have been optimal).


Additional question, what would you think of a trinisphere emblem for the "go big or go home" round? Otherwise it would be a bit more like classical rounds, alternate costs all over.

[Phasmoid]

I think we really need something about infinite loops across turns built into the rules. I'm going to suggest again the rule from the first game I played on reddit:

If a loop containing at least one optional action would be repeated indefinitely during a turn, then any player may propose a number of times for that loop to repeat instead. If a player does, then each other player may propose a different number and the loop is repeated for the greatest number of times proposed instead. No player is required to make a choice that would end a loop that crosses multiple turns.

This keeps any in turn infinite loops sensible, and allows for every reasonable 'best play' scenario I can think of. It does allow Time Vault + Voltaic Key to draw, but given that drawing scores pretty badly, I don't think that would be an issue. We could as FTW suggests make it apply only if both players take a turn instead, and I don't think it would change much.


EDIT: PJim basically has the rule from their ruleset, except they also later explicitly banned taking infinite turns. Probably would be simpler to just go with that (except we can probably leave infinite turns legal, because if you can win taking all the turns, you deserve to), because loop rules are dumb.



One could get a similar result (how similar depends on how they
defined “taking infinite turns”) by starting with what PJim said and

replacing “during a turn” with
“and there is a player such that it would never be the other’s turn during the loop”

and

replacing “No player is required … crosses multiple turns.” with
“No player is required to make a choice that would end a
loop that includes infinitely many of each players’ turns.”

.


This would allow an otherwise infinite-turn combo to tick up Helix Pinnacle
for a win, but would not allow any normal means of getting infinitely many turns
to cause a draw if the non-active player is not doing anything during those turns.
(Nexus of Fate + Omen Machine means it’s possible to have a mandatory
infinite-turn loop, and under the changes I mentioned, that would
still cause a draw if neither player does anything during those turns.)






, because a player with Nomads en-Kor who's going to lose could optimally just activate his 0 cost ability forever.


This situation in fact comes up for Tylert vs GoblinSmashmaster this round (due to the round rule):

Leyline of Sanctity stops Grapeshot from targeting Tylert.
Can GoblinSmashmaster get draws by recycling the Conjurer’s Baubles forever?






Otherwise it is hard to say who has to break the loop in many cases.
For instance if we take Max vs Tylert this round, it is a draw when Tylert is OTP, no one can kill the other. Should Tylert attack with nexus into drake, losing field and the game? Or should maxx attack with drake uselessly into field, to receive poison counters from nexus?



My understanding is that
not attacking
is
not taking an action
, rather than
taking an optional action
.

(i.e., that there are no optional actions in the no-one attacks loop)


Additionally, even though attacking would end the loop, I
believe that is not "called for by objects involved in the loop":

Even if one says that Drake is involved
(as opposed to no objects being involved - it's just the players doing nothing)
because otherwise Tylert would win with Nexus,
I don't see any way that Drake calls for itself to attack.



For these reasons, I believe that even with the infinity rule,
neither player would be required to break the no-one attacks loop
and the game would be a draw.

[Asthereal]

You tried this already a few years ago, I said it was a bad idea (because either you make trying to draw across the board optimal because sweeping the field is much harder, or the awards are effectively irrelevant), let's not go through this again.
The idea is to award more points total than 6 for straight draws, and of course even more for straight wins.
In order for this to work we need straight wins to be best, but straight draws to be better than all wins except one.
Before, we were with like 10 players most of the time, and straight draws or straight wins was actually quite reasonable to achieve.
Now we have grown, it starts to become a cool addition again.

Hey, I'll always be looking for spicing things up, and I want to add straight draws as a strategy (which is risky, because if you don't make it, you score very poorly).
It's just a way to keep things interesting for longer.



The bigger question is whether or not the MTR is relevant, or simply the Comp Rules, because the Comp Rules are far less strict:

Under this interpretation, Time Vault taking all the turns without a win condition is still not legal, but the question is whether tapping a permanent controlled by an opponent during an opponent's turn involves both players (because that would lead to a draw). It could also be that optimal play concepts overrule loop rules. (This is probably why MTGS had a set of CB Comprehensive Rules back when they had CB, except they called it Perfect Hand Magic.)

EDIT: PJim basically has the rule from their ruleset, except they also later explicitly banned taking infinite turns. Probably would be simpler to just go with that (except we can probably leave infinite turns legal, because if you can win taking all the turns, you deserve to), because loop rules are dumb.
I, for one, am very much okay with a Time Walk loop without a wincon ending in a draw.
The thing is: 4CB runs into heaps of situations where you just get stuck.
Tapping stuff eternally, Chronomatons ticking up but never attacking. I could go on.
It just happens, and my vote goes to just letting it happen and be part of 4CB the way it has been for the past few years.

[alphastryk]

I agree that 4CB inherently will have scenarios where we repeat the same actions every turn to force a draw - if we go away from that it seems like we're going away from the sprint of this puzzle game.

[Wrath of Pie]

The idea is to award more points total than 6 for straight draws, and of course even more for straight wins.
In order for this to work we need straight wins to be best, but straight draws to be better than all wins except one.
Before, we were with like 10 players most of the time, and straight draws or straight wins was actually quite reasonable to achieve.
Now we have grown, it starts to become a cool addition again.

Hey, I'll always be looking for spicing things up, and I want to add straight draws as a strategy (which is risky, because if you don't make it, you score very poorly).
It's just a way to keep things interesting for longer.
We have other better ways to make things interesting. In fact, we're already doing so.

(Also, straight draws being worth more than 6 season points leads to collusion in the form of everyone optimizing for draws, which is dumb and not really in the spirit of fun.)

[RoosterCocoa]

Looking ahead to next week's round rule, do all 3 colored mana symbols need to be in a card's cost or can they be anywhere on the card?

[Asthereal]

(Also, straight draws being worth more than 6 season points leads to collusion in the form of everyone optimizing for draws, which is dumb and not really in the spirit of fun.)
You haven't tried it.

Trying to optimize for draws and failing means you'll score less than 2 SP for the round.
So you have to be more or less sure you'll make it, otherwise you have a bad round. It's a big risk.
Going for max wins will still be best as you'll get more SP that way anyway, but getting max wins is of course rather a long shot.

I don't expect many people to ever try for all draws, but when it happens, it's actually a lot more awesome than you might realize.
Also, I feel like people are overly scared of draws. Remember we don't actually play the games. We don't really have to sit through 900 turn staredowns. :wink:



Looking ahead to next week's round rule, do all 3 colored mana symbols need to be in a card's cost or can they be anywhere on the card?
The plan was casting cost, yes.
I see I haven't worded that clearly at all.

[alphastryk]

We have other better ways to make things interesting. In fact, we're already doing so.

(Also, straight draws being worth more than 6 season points leads to collusion in the form of everyone optimizing for draws, which is dumb and not really in the spirit of fun.)

Which, in turn becomes the Prisoner's Dilemma, because individually breaking the collusion is optimal. I'm not convinced it would be nearly as big a problem (in fact, my biggest concern is that it ultimately wouldn't matter at all because playing to win is always better).

[dte]

I think if we go something like 7 SP for all draws, it might be worth trying.
That could spice things up, and worse case scenario it does nothing, so quite harmless to do.

[Serguei]

I have a question for next round

8. Cornucopia: Non-land cards in each deck must in total contain at least 3 different colored mana symbols. Hybrid mana symbols count for 1.

Do we agree that is the sum of different mana symbols contained in manavalue of each non Land cards that must be greater or equal to 3?

Because the way it is written, it means each nonland card should have at least 3 différent mana symbol.

[Asthereal]

I have a question for next round

8. Cornucopia: Non-land cards in each deck must in total contain at least 3 different colored mana symbols. Hybrid mana symbols count for 1.

Do we agree that is the sum of different mana symbols contained in manavalue of each non Land cards that must be greater or equal to 3?

Because the way it is written, it means each nonland card should have at least 3 différent mana symbol.
I haven't worded it properly. It's about casting cost, and it's about playing many colors.
So playing an Abzan Charm would be enough to meet the rule.

I'll change it now, in order to stop the confusion.

EDIT: 8. Cornucopia: Non-land cards in each deck must in total contain at least 3 different colored mana symbols in their mana costs. Hybrid mana symbols count for 1.

[Asthereal]

Asthereal's scores for round 7:

1. Asthereal (TO): Island, Rishadan Dockhand, Force of Negation, Daze <-me
2. Reeplcheep: vault of whispers, mox opal, thopter foundry, Sword of the Meek WW
3. jhhdk: Seat of the Synod, Thopter Foundry, Mox Opal, Sword of the Meek WW
4. Tylert: Ancient den, Energy field, Inkmoth nexus, Leyline of sanctity DD
5. PJim: Foil, Island, Nether Spirit, Dryad Arbor LL
6. RoosterCocoa: Vault of Whispers, Welding Jar, Sword of the Meek, Thopter Foundry WW
7. alphastryk: Sand Silos, Misthollow Griffin, Force of Negation, Mu Yanling, Sky Dancer DD
8. Phasmoid: Ancient Den, Tidehollow Sculler, Vault of Whispers, Rotting Regisaur DL
9. dte: Tarnished citadel, Death's shadow, subtlety, Force of negation DD
10. Wrath of Pie: Darksteel Citadel, Darksteel Citadel, Hangarback Walker, Steel Overseer LL
11. H: Island, Steel Sabotage, Force Spike, Spectral Sailor WL
12. maxx!: Seat of the Synod, Genesis Chamber, Shrieking Drake, Burst of Speed WW
13. silkster: Ancient Den, Chronomaton, Swords to Plowshares, Duress LL
14. mattamort: Ancient Den, Force of Negation, Stormscape Apprentice, Tidehollow Sculler DL
15. Serguei: Vault of Whispers;Tidehollow Sculler;Force Of Negation;Essence Flux WL
16. GoblinSmashmaster: Mox Opal, Conjurer's Bauble, Conjurer's Bauble, Grapeshot WW
17. FTW: Force of Negation, Subtlety, Darksteel Citadel, Collector Ouphe WL

Total: 47 points

[Asthereal]

Results are almost in. Two questions remain:
- Disagreement between mattamort and dte, where dte had DD and matta LL. I think matta is right because he can only cast one creature at a time, which gets Subtlety'ed (as spell) and then can't be cast anymore.
- No results posted yet by Phasmoid and silk, so we don't have their head-to-head yet. I think Phasmoid wins it 6-0 because he can use Sculler to force out StP and then the Regisaur races Chrono.

I'll be adding the idea for the loop rule to the first post as well, just so everyone is clear. I'll add examples for clarity (Nomads en-Kor is a good one).

[Serguei]

I haven't worded it properly. It's about casting cost, and it's about playing many colors.
So playing an Abzan Charm would be enough to meet the rule.

I'll change it now, in order to stop the confusion.

EDIT: 8. Cornucopia: Non-land cards in each deck must in total contain at least 3 different colored mana symbols in their mana costs. Hybrid mana symbols count for 1.

So each card should be at least tricolor ? Or have a mana value like Returned Pastcaller?


Do you confirm that triome, ponder, lightning bolt, savannah lion is not à receivable deck?

[Wrath of Pie]

So each card should be at least tricolor ? Or have a mana value like Returned Pastcaller?


Do you confirm that triome, ponder, lightning bolt, savannah lion is not à receivable deck?

Three different colors among all the mana costs, so that should be legal.

[mattamort]

I guess playing only lands is Not allowed?

[FTW]

Three different colors among all the mana costs, so that should be legal.

Yeah, I was confused about this too.
I thought the above Savannah Lions deck would be illegal.
I thought it mean that EACH nonland card must have at least 3 mana symbols on it (e.g. Abzan Charm legal, Benalish Hero banned. For something like Knight of the Reliquary, I wasn't sure if generic counts as a different one. Or snow.)
I thought that all-lands would be legal as it contains no illegal nonland cards, and the rule was a requirement for nonland cards.

It sounds like several of us interpreted the round rule differently. Asthereal, could you clarify with some examples of what is legal and what is not legal?

[dte]

I am a bit surprised, for me it sounded quite clear, and that the triome deck was legal, as well as any 3cb plus progenitus, or kazoo land, land, azban charm, chronomaton.

Otherwise, it is redundant with "go big or go home", and it is formulated very diferently. It is not "each card should", but "cards in total". Generic or snow are not colors.

It also does not sounds interesting if each card in a deck should be tricolor.
As a proposition, for each round that plays on cards restrictions, I think we could have an example deck.

[Asthereal]

Three different colors among all the mana costs, so that should be legal.
Correct. Three differently colored mono-color cards are fine as well.



I guess playing only lands is Not allowed?
Indeed that isn't allowed.



It sounds like several of us interpreted the round rule differently. Asthereal, could you clarify with some examples of what is legal and what is not legal?
Legal: Abzan Charm, Plains, Swamp, Forest
Legal: City of Brass, Pouncing Jaguar, Lightning Bolt, Fatal Push
Also legal, even though I don't like it: Taiga, Pouncing Jaguar, Tattermunge Maniac, Lightning Bolt (a hybrid mana symbol is counted as different)

Illegal: Crumbling Necropolis, Maze of Ith, Blinkmoth Nexus, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

So the cards in your deck must in total contain three different colored mana symbols in their casting costs.
How you want to distribute this is up to you, as long as the different color mana symbols are there.
And hybrid counts as separate from its respective colors, since red-green isn't red or green. It's both.
I hope this is clear?

Lastly, I haven't made my deck yet and have to do one last check on the scores anyway, which might influence bannings. So I'll probably open submissions for the round tomorrow.

[Phasmoid]

Results are almost in. Two questions remain:
- Disagreement between mattamort and dte, where dte had DD and matta LL. I think matta is right because he can only cast one creature, which gets Subtlety'ed and then can't be cast anymore.
- No results posted yet by Phasmoid and silk, so we don't have their head-to-head yet. I think Phasmoid wins it 6-0 because he can use Sculler to force out StP and then the Regisaur races Chrono.

I'll be adding the idea for the loop rule to the first post as well, just so everyone is clear. I'll add examples for clarity (Nomads en-Kor is a good one).




I don't see a results post - or any post, for that matter - this round from Reeplcheep or jhhdk.



I was holding off on putting together my results post because I thought more people would weigh in on the loop issue.
In that regard, I note that the reasons given for the loop rule that's now in the opening post, assume that very loop rule:

"when you need to tap a land eternally to stop something from getting cast," if infinite is not allowed, then zero times
is optimal, "as there is no benefit to the game state in" making extra turns go by before you finally don't tap the land.
If infinite is allowed, then when something would cause you to lose (for example, when you have priority
in a declare blockers step in which your opponent is attacking for lethal in the air), you need to activate
Nomads en-Kor eternally to stop that thing from happening, so there is no optimal number except infinite.


The multiple turns distinction does indeed allow infinite for one and not for the other, but that's just the rule saying so:
It does not validly get derived from optimal play.


Also, as I mentioned earlier, Asthereal vs me is not the only match this round in which the loop issue comes up:
The other one is, against Tylert, can GoblinSmashmaster get draws by recycling the Conjurer’s Baubles eternally?



Lastly, since Thopter Foundry requires sacrificing a nontoken artifact, although I have not run the numbers,
I feel like my matches against Reeplcheep and jddhk and RoosterCocoa should be 6-0 for me.

If those would affect bans for the next round, then please wait at least
10 hours so that tonight I can post an analysis for those 3 matches.
(Although I already had a lot of time, most of that was
me waiting for more replies regarding the loop issue.)

[Asthereal]

Also, as I mentioned earlier, Asthereal vs me is not the only match this round in which the loop issue comes up:
The other one is, against Tylert, can GoblinSmashmaster get draws by recycling the Conjurer’s Baubles eternally?
Nope. It loops within a turn. Within a step, even. And it doesn't affect the board state. SO it's the same as a Nomads en-Kor redirecting to itself eternally for no reason at all.



Lastly, since Thopter Foundry requires sacrificing a nontoken artifact, although I have not run the numbers,
I feel like my matches against Reeplcheep and jddhk and RoosterCocoa should be 6-0 for me.

If those would affect bans for the next round, then please wait at least
10 hours so that tonight I can post an analysis for those 3 matches.
(Although I already had a lot of time, most of that was
me waiting for more replies regarding the loop issue.)
I'll go to sleep in a minute, so you have all my night to analyse if you want.
I'll see what you come up with in the morning. :wink:

Fun fact: this entire looping discussion comes after nearly 2.5 years of 4CB where we never had anyone argue about how that would work with our rules.
So yeah, I too was a tad unprepared for the discussion. At first I though there shouldn't be one at all, but the deeper I dug into it, the weirder it got.

[dte]

The thopter / sword combo is to sack the sword, which is not a token (and thus infinite life and creature tokens on T1) , so 3-3 is accurate for Phasmoid VS T1 combo (classic of targeted discard vs combo T1).
And Asthereal is right for the 2 MU he presented (luckily for me).

[Phasmoid]

me: Ancient Den, Tidehollow Sculler, Vault of Whispers, Rotting Regisaur

54 points




1. Asthereal (TO): Island, Rishadan Dockhand, Force of Negation, Daze WD 4-1


when I am OTP:
I cast T1 Tidehollow Sculler. You can't counter it,
and a 2/2 beats you even without any abilities.

when I am OTD:
This leads to a loop in which I do nothing and
Aesthereal keeps activating Rishidan Dockhand’s ability.
(See my analysis on page 250.)



2. Reeplcheep: vault of whispers, mox opal, thopter foundry, Sword of the Meek WL 3-3
and
3. jhhdk: Seat of the Synod, Thopter Foundry, Mox Opal, Sword of the Meek WL 3-3
and
6. RoosterCocoa: Vault of Whispers, Welding Jar, Sword of the Meek, Thopter Foundry WL 3-3


When I am OTP, T1 Tidehollow Sculler takes Thopter Foundry and wins.

when I am OTD:
When I was looking at this earlier, I missed the relevant of Sword of the Meek’s return ability.
It lets you go infinite, so you make 20 1/1 flyers and win on T2.


4. Tylert: Ancient den, Energy field, Inkmoth nexus, Leyline of sanctity LL 0-6

Your deck works perfectly against me.


5. PJim: Foil, Island, Nether Spirit, Dryad Arbor DD 2-2

You don't lose since you can Foil whatever I cast first
and then block forever with Nether Spirit.
I cast T1 Tidehollow Sculler, and would take Foil,
so T2 Rotting Regisaur resolves. You can only deal 1 damage to me before my T2
and only 2 damage to me after my T2, so you also can't win.


7. alphastryk: Sand Silos, Misthollow Griffin, Force of Negation, Mu Yanling, Sky Dancer WW 6-0

2+(7+2)+(7+2) = 20 so I goldfish on T4, which is before you can cast anything.


8. Phasmoid: Ancient Den, Tidehollow Sculler, Vault of Whispers, Rotting Regisaur this is me


9. dte: Tarnished citadel, Death's shadow, subtlety, Force of negation WW 6-0

If you cast T1 Death's Shadow, then your creature immediately dies.
I cast T1 Tidehollow Sculler. If it resolves, then it takes
Death's Shadow if you still have it, winning for me.
Thus, you Subtly put it in my library.
2 activations of Tarnished citadel leaves you with at least 14 life, so if
you cast T1 Death's Shadow, then your creature still immediately dies.
On my T2, I draw and re-cast Tidehollow Sculler,
taking Death's Shadow if you still have it.
That wins for me.



10. Wrath of Pie: Darksteel Citadel, Darksteel Citadel, Hangarback Walker, Steel Overseer WW 6-0


if you don’t cast Hangarback Walker before my T1 then:
T1 Tidehollow Sculler takes Hangarback Walker, and I cast T2 Rotting Regisaur.
3 unblocked attacks by Rotting Regisaur would kill you,
so you must do something about that no later than my T5.
Steel Overseer can’t do more than 6 damage to me by then, so it must block.
Steel Overseer will be at most 5/5 by then, so the block is a chump-block, so I win.

In particular, I win when I am OTP.

when I am OTD:
You must cast T1 Hangarback Walker. I cast T1 Tidehollow Sculler and take Steel Overseer.
Hangarback Walker starts your T2 as a 1/1, so it
attacking that turn would leave you with just a 1/1 flyer.
That would be even worse for you than a Steel Overseer,
so Hangarback Walker does not attack on your T2.
Other than your T2, Tidehollow Sculler will never attack and never block.
On one of our T2s, you pump Hangarback Walker to 2/2. On my T2, I cast Rotting Regisaur.
Just like the “you don’t cast Hangarback Walker before my T1” case,
Hangarback Walker must block no later than my T5.
That block does not kill Rotting Regisaur and gives you at most 5 Thopters.
If it gives you 5 Thopters, then you let 2 of my
attacks through and haven’t dealt any damage to me.
In that case, you would need to block each of my subsequent attacks.
Such blocks would cost you 1 Thopter per turn, so you would not be
able to deal more than 5+4+3+2+1 damage to me, so I would win.
You counterattacking on T5 would leave you unable to block,
and any counterattacks before then are for at most 3 damage each.
3<4, so counterattacking with 4 Thopters will deal more damage.
Even that way, you can’t deal more than 4+4+4+3+2+1 = 18 damage to me, so I win.



11. H: Island, Steel Sabotage, Force Spike, Spectral Sailor WL 3-3


When I am OTP, T1 Tidehollow Sculler takes Steel Sabotage,
and then my 2/2 beats your 1/1 flyer.

when I am OTD:
On your T1, you play Island and nothing else.
Steel Sabotage counters Tidehollow Sculler, Force Spike counters Rotting Regisaur,
and you can cast your 1/1 in one of my end steps, after which your 1/1 beats my nothing.



12. maxx!: Seat of the Synod, Genesis Chamber, Shrieking Drake, Burst of Speed WL 3-3

When I am OTP, T1 Tidehollow Sculler takes Shrieking Drake and wins.
When I am OTD, you go off and win on T1.


13. silkster: Ancient Den, Chronomaton, Swords to Plowshares, Duress WW 6-0

Duress doesn’t do anything against me.
I cast T1 Tidehollow Sculler, and it either takes or gets exiled by Swords to Plowshares.
I cast T2 Rotting Regisaur.
3 unblocked attacks by Rotting Regisaur would kill you,
so you must do something about that no later than my T5.
Chronomaton can’t do more than 6 damage to me by then, so it must block.
Chronomaton will be at most 5/5 by then, so the block is a chump-block, so I win.



14. mattamort: Ancient Den, Force of Negation, Stormscape Apprentice, Tidehollow Sculler WL 3-3


Whoever is OTP, that player’s Tidehollow Sculler takes the other player’s Tidehollow Sculler.

when I am OTD:
That leaves you with a 2/2 and a tapper against my 1 creature,
so you win by tapping my creature before combat on my turns.

when I am OTP:
That leaves me with a 2/2 and a bigger creature against your 1/1, so
starting on my T3, you take at least 2 damage on each of my turns.
That kills you before Stormscape Apprentice’s {B} ability could kill me.



15. Serguei: Vault of Whispers;Tidehollow Sculler;Force Of Negation;Essence Flux WL 3-3

When I am OTP, my Tidehollow Sculler takes your Tidehollow Sculler and wins.
When I am OTD, your Tidehollow Sculler takes both of my creatures and wins.


16. GoblinSmashmaster: Mox Opal, Conjurer's Bauble, Conjurer's Bauble, Grapeshot WL 3-3

When I am OTP, Tidehollow Sculler takes Mox Opal and wins.
When I am OTD, you go off and win on T1.


17. FTW: Force of Negation, Subtlety, Darksteel Citadel, Collector Ouphe LL 0-6

You Subtlely put Tidehollow Sculler into my library,
and then Collector Ouphe locks me out and wins for you.

[Phasmoid]

There is still a disagreement between Wrath of Pie and mattamort:
Both have WW for themselves in their results posts
and 6 points for themselves in the spreadsheet.

I agree with mattamort on that match:
T1 Tidehollow Sculler takes 1 of WoP's creatures, WoP can get 1 attack
for 1 damage on T2, and then Stormscape Apprentice shuts down
WoP's remaining creature while Tidehollow Sculler kills WoP.


Again, I found the disagreement by temporarily pasting
my conditional formatting formula to the results grid, so if
I neither find on my own nor am informed of a bug in the conditional formatting formula
and no one opposes this, then I will paste the conditional formatting formula
NON-temporarily starting next round.

The conditional formatting formula is currently applied to a test-grid,
from W22 to Z25 inclusive, so anyone can test it to see if they find a bug.



Fun fact: this entire looping discussion comes after nearly 2.5 years of 4CB where we never had anyone argue about how that would work with our rules.

I guess "argue" means you may be correct anyway, but according to
the response when I asked last round, this at least came up before:


We have already dealt with the world of loop rules (it cost me points because I used the targeting Time Warp), and jhhdk would indeed have to break the loop by losing.

[Phasmoid]

questions regarding the rule for next round:

Do Phyrexian mana symbols count differently from the corresponding normal mana symbols?
For modal double-faced cards, does one also count the back face?


(I would say Yes and Yes.)

[Asthereal]

There is still a disagreement between Wrath of Pie and mattamort:
Both have WW for themselves in their results posts
and 6 points for themselves in the spreadsheet.

I agree with mattamort on that match:
T1 Tidehollow Sculler takes 1 of WoP's creatures, WoP can get 1 attack
for 1 damage on T2, and then Stormscape Apprentice shuts down
WoP's remaining creature while Tidehollow Sculler kills WoP.
I think Wrath may have missed the idea that Sculler is an artifact, which makes a blue mana to cast Apprentice.
I made this same mistake when analysing one of his matches.



questions regarding the rule for next round:

Do Phyrexian mana symbols count differently from the corresponding normal mana symbols?
For modal double-faced cards, does one also count the back face?


(I would say Yes and Yes.)
Yes and yes. I did not think this round through very well at all.
Should have just gone by "must play at least three colors".

[Asthereal]

Looks like we're complete now. Or complete enough to lock in the bannings, otherwise things take too long.

Standings for round 7:
1. dte: 70 - 4,4
1. FTW: 70 - 4,4
3. PJim: 66 - 4,1
4. mattamort: 64 - 4
5. alphastryk: 58 - 3,6
6. Phasmoid: 54 - 3,4
7. Serguei: 53 - 3,3
8. silkster: 51 - 3,2
9. Asthereal (TO): 47 - 2,9
10. Tylert: 41 - 2,6
11. H: 36 - 2,3
12. maxx!: 34 - 2,1
13. Reeplcheep: 31 - 1,9
13. jhhdk: 31 - 1,9
15. GoblinSmashmaster: 30 - 1,9
16. Wrath of Pie: 28 - 1,8
17. RoosterCocoa: 17 - 1,1

Which leads to these bannings:
Collector Ouphe
Darksteel Citadel
Death's shadow
Dryad Arbor
Foil
Force of negation
Nether Spirit
Subtlety
Tarnished citadel

And standings in the round look as follows:
1. Tylert: 27,3
2. Serguei: 26
3. dte: 24,9
4. FTW: 24,8
5. mattamort: 24,5
6. silkster: 23,6
7. GoblinSmashmaster: 22,6
8. PJim: 21,9
9. maxx!: 20,4
10. alphastryk: 19,9
11. Reeplcheep: 16,2
12. RoosterCocoa: 15,9
13. Wrath of Pie: 14,9
14. jhhdk: 12
15. Asthereal (TO): 11,8
16. Phasmoid: 11,3
17. H: 9,7
18. shiftyhomunculus: 3,1

So we see champs FTW and dte moving up in the ranks due to a strong performance.
Also worth mentioning is the steady rise of PJim, who looks to be competing for the top spots before long.

EDIT: Fixed for wrong result in Tylert vs maxx!

[dte]

I still think Tylert vs maxx! is still wrong, should be 4-1 and not 3-3.
Or how can Tylert win OTP?

[Asthereal]

I still think Tylert vs maxx! is still wrong, should be 4-1 and not 3-3.
Or how can Tylert win OTP?
The Myr tokens from Chamber don't fly, but of course maxx! can keep the Drake in play by returning (effectively saccing) one of the million tokens he has.
Drake will block and trade with the Nexus, which will also get rid of the Energy Field. So no attacks for Tylert here. I think you're right. Should be 4-1.

[Wrath of Pie]

I think Wrath may have missed the idea that Sculler is an artifact, which makes a blue mana to cast Apprentice.
I made this same mistake when analysing one of his matches.

Indeed I did.

[Asthereal]

ROUND 8 OF SEASON 10: DEVIANT LEGACY BANNATHON has started.

This round we play Cornucopia: Non-land cards in each deck must in total contain at least 3 different colored mana symbols in their mana costs. Hybrid mana symbols count for 1, and so does phyrexian mana. For modal and/or double-faced cards, both side/modes count.

Examples of what's legal and not:
Legal: Abzan Charm, Plains, Swamp, Forest
Legal: City of Brass, Pouncing Jaguar, Lightning Bolt, Fatal Push
Also legal, even though I don't like it: Taiga, Pouncing Jaguar, Tattermunge Maniac, Lightning Bolt (a hybrid mana symbol is counted as different)
Illegal: Crumbling Necropolis, Maze of Ith, Blinkmoth Nexus, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
So the cards in your deck must in total contain three different colored mana symbols in their casting costs.
How you want to distribute this is up to you, as long as the different color mana symbols are there.
And hybrid and phyrexian count as separate forms.


I have PM'ed myself my deck for round 8, so you can start sending me your decks.

DEADLINE: Wednesday the 7th of July at 11:00AM Central European Time.
(That's my time zone. Pacific Time it'll probably be something like Tuesday night a bit past midnight, so keep that in mind.)

PLEASE NOTE:
The way you send your deck to me matters. Please send it in the way described below, so it doesn't cost me an hour of editing before I can post all the decks.
Please send your deck as follows: Gemstone Mine, City of Brass, Crystalline Sliver, Hibernation Sliver.
So with card tags around each card, and not above eachother, and with your Username and 4CB S10R087 in the topic.
Don't forget to keep an eye on the banned list. You'll find it in the second post (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1064264&viewfull=1#post1064264) of the thread, or in our Google Spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1M2zwN9zxSe7IwiJmZH8eGXeNpEjqspR_SWT5d3Hqqac/edit?usp=sharing).

After the deadline has passed, I will post all decks on the forum here, and you can start puzzling out your scores.
If you have any questions, please read the first two posts of this thread first. If you can't find the answer there, drop a message here. We'll answer a.s.a.p.

Happy deck building! :smile:

[FTW]

Asthereal, thanks for the clarification on the round.


I am a bit surprised, for me it sounded quite clear, and that the triome deck was legal, as well as any 3cb plus progenitus, or kazoo land, land, azban charm, chronomaton.

Otherwise, it is redundant with "go big or go home", and it is formulated very diferently. It is not "each card should", but "cards in total". Generic or snow are not colors.

Was the wording changed recently? I started brewing over a week ago.

With the original wording it was not clear to me that it was in total across all cards, instead of for any nonland card. I think it also started with different "mana symbols" not different colors. Hybrid and phyrexian are not colors but they are different mana symbols. Woolly Thoctar vs Rhox War Monk seemed boring, so the decks I came up with were 4 lands. At the time it seemed consistent with the rules. Anyway, that's why I had the same questions as Serguei and mattamort. It's clear now.



I guess "argue" means you may be correct anyway, but according to
the response when I asked last round, this at least came up before:

This discussion came up before on page 220, for the Epic round of Deviant Legacy. (Season 9 Round 12)

I thought we made a decision then: optional infinite loops can result in draws if both players get to take turns (even if one player can't do anything meaningful), but loops must terminate at a finite number if both players don't get turns.

The examples that came up in that discussion were:
1) Infinite Time Warp (Epic ability). This one was debated both ways. We eventually decided since this loop is optional (Time Warp can target opponent), it must terminate. Eventually you must choose to target opponent and pass the turn. If it was Temporal Manipulation then the loop is not optional.

2) Activating Nomads en-Kor infinite times. Everyone agreed spamming the stack and never passing priority is ridiculous. A finite number must be chosen.

3) Crazed Goblin vs Steel Wall. Goblin must attack. The only optional decision is Steel Wall blocking. Opponent could choose not to block to end this infinite loop. However we agreed in 4CB this should be a draw. Opponent should not be forced not to block. This loop is different from the others because both players get turns, even if no progress is made.

4) 3x Oblivion Ring + Darksteel Relic. We agreed the Oblivion Ring loop must terminate and eventually target Darksteel Relic. However without Relic the loop is not optional and draws.

5) Gideon's Lawkeeper vs Blightsteel Colossus. We agreed in 4CB this should be a draw. You should not be forced to stop tapping down Blightsteel and lose.

6) Tap and untap Basalt Monolith forever. We agreed this is also dumb and must terminate after a finite number.


PJim's answer at the time:

I played in a game on Reddit last year (as did Wrath of Pie), it had a pretty comprehensive rule set, including:

If a loop containing at least one optional action would be repeated indefinitely during a turn, then any player may propose a number of times for that loop to repeat instead. If a player does, then each other player may propose a different number and the loop is repeated for the greatest number of times proposed instead. No player is required to make a choice that would end a loop that crosses multiple turns.

Which seems fairly reasonable for meeting expectations about what should happen (at least in my head). It's obvious that Nomads-en-Kor shouldn't be an auto-draw button, but I suspect people also don't think a Crazed Goblin should win through a Steel Wall, which would happen with the tournament rules.

On the other hand, I may be biased, as that was the rule in the only game I've played previously. So it may not really be the standard approach.

"No player is required to make a choice that would end a loop that crosses multiple turns"

According to this rule, loops #2, #4 and #6 must terminate because they occur within just 1 turn. #3 and #5 are allowed because they occur across both players' turns.

Activating Rishadan Dockhand is like #5. We've had Rishadan Port in past rounds too. In our other 4CB rounds you were allowed to tap down opponent forever. I think for 4CB to make sense, tapdown "loops" like Lawkeeper and Rishadan should be draws. Technically any draw is an infinite loop of doing nothing (you could choose to activate mana abilities or make unfavorable combat choices), but these are really stalemates more than loops. The format is supposed to have draws.

Note: PJim's rule is slightly different for #1. It would allow infinite Time Warps because it occurs across multiple turns. For the round we decided infinite Time Warps was not allowed because the loop did not include the other player's turn. I am OK with either version. But we should make a firm decision for the rules.

[Asthereal]

Note: PJim's rule is slightly different for #1. It would allow infinite Time Warps because it occurs across multiple turns. For the round we decided infinite Time Warps was not allowed because the loop did not include the other player's turn. I am OK with either version. But we should make a firm decision for the rules.
Yes to everything you said, except I would like to add a thingy to the remark above:
We decided against the eternal Time Warp mostly for that specific round (every sorcery has Epic, which makes Time Warp and friends very dumb indeed).

I don't think we'll need it as a base rule, as eternal Time Warp without help from "deviant" round rules is rather hard to accomplish.
Of course there is Time Vault and Voltaic Key, but Time Vault is banned, and the combo doesn't have a wincon attached to it, and it costs quite some mana.
Doesn't look like a problem to me.
(Then again, I rarely see the problems before they actually hit me in the face. :laugh: )

[FTW]

I don't think we'll need it as a base rule, as eternal Time Warp without help from "deviant" round rules is rather hard to accomplish.
Of course there is Time Vault and Voltaic Key, but Time Vault is banned, and the combo doesn't have a wincon attached to it, and it costs quite some mana.
Doesn't look like a problem to me.
(Then again, I rarely see the problems before they actually hit me in the face. :laugh: )

Back in Vintage Bannathon, apple found the better combo of Time Vault + Voltaic Servant for the turn 1 infinite turns + an attacking wincon. But because it had an attacker this is less likely to draw.

Because we have rotated through so many different formats, banlists and Deviant rules, it might be helpful to establish this rule in advance. Who knows what interactions will come up later.

The same rule would affect whether Karn Liberated can draw by restarting the game forever or if it's forced to eventually do something else (e.g. vs Invisible Stalker.dec, which Karn cannot kill or steal, and it's too small to kill Karn or opponent before the restart). Karn has been played before.
Edit: Or Isochron Scepter+Final Fortune in past rounds that cancelled "Lose the game" effects.

[PJim]

Back in Vintage Bannathon, apple found the better combo of Time Vault + Voltaic Servant for the turn 1 infinite turns + an attacking wincon. But because it had an attacker this is less likely to draw.

Because we have rotated through so many different formats, banlists and Deviant rules, it might be helpful to establish this rule in advance. Who knows what interactions will come up later.

The same rule would affect whether Karn Liberated can draw by restarting the game forever or if it's forced to eventually do something else (e.g. vs Invisible Stalker.dec, which Karn cannot kill or steal, and it's too small to kill Karn or opponent before the restart). Karn has been played before.
Edit: Or Isochron Scepter+Final Fortune in past rounds that cancelled "Lose the game" effects.

Karn can surely restart the game forever either way, it's a loop with optional actions going across both players' turns.

For the one player infinite turns loops, I think it's more important that it's established one way or the other, the actual ruling won't come up much. We've got a rule in the OP, so everything should be nice and clear now for future rounds.

[Phasmoid]

2) Activating Nomads en-Kor infinite times. Everyone agreed spamming the stack and never passing priority is ridiculous. A finite number must be chosen.

This would not need to be "never passing priority".
During the opponent's turn, the Nomads en-Kor player could activate the ability only when the stack is empty,
and let that ability resolve rather than activating it again when there's 1 of it already on the stack.




The same rule would affect whether Karn Liberated can draw by restarting the game forever or if it's forced to eventually do something else (e.g. vs Invisible Stalker.dec, which Karn cannot kill or steal, and it's too small to kill Karn or opponent before the restart).

In the absence of a round rule, for every example of this I can think of, both players would be taking optional actions:
Karn's player is restarting the game, and the other player would be playing something (in your example, casting Invisible Stalker).

[FTW]

Yes, I agree Karn should be allowed to infinitely restart the game as both players are acting across multiple turns.


This would not need to be "never passing priority".
During the opponent's turn, the Nomads en-Kor player could activate the ability only when the stack is empty,
and let that ability resolve rather than activating it again when there's 1 of it already on the stack.

Since it's a finite number of times the opponent eventually gets to do things, so this could not be used to stall a game to a draw.

Example:
Opponent's upkeep: Activate Nomads once. Pass priority. It resolves. Activate Nomads on empty stack again. etc. This could be repeated over and over. But this can and must be shortcut by a loop. You specify a finite number of times to do this (e.g. 9999), since it's a loop within one turn, then upkeep must end.
Opponent's draw step: Same thing. You can activate whenever the stack is empty but must shortcut this to a finite number of times (you cannot keep putting it on the empty stack an infinite number of times). Activate 9999 times then end draw step.
Opponent's main phase: Same thing.
Opponent's combat step: Same thing.
Opponent's end step: Same thing.

Each loop occurs within a single step/phase and must terminate at a finite number. There are a finite number of phases/steps per turn, so both your turn and opponent's turn pass with a finite number of Nomads activations. The opponent still got a full turn to cast spells and attack. The turns will go back and forth with a finite number of Nomads activations each turn. If opponent has a win condition, it will eventually win.

Note that this is not a multi-turn loop. You can stack together a series of finite loops within each phase, but they cannot be combined to shortcut as a multi-turn loop if the opponent has any action that would progress the game forwards (e.g. Attack for 2 flying with Kor Skyfisher each combat step). Then it is not a multi-turn loop so it is not allowed to be infinite.

If the opponent has no action to progress the game forwards (e.g. no attacker that gets through Nomads), it's irrelevant because it would be a draw either way. I don't see a problem here.

[Phasmoid]

Since it's a finite number of times the opponent eventually gets to do things, so this could not be used to stall a game to a draw.

Like I mentioned to Asthereal, this is assuming the relevant part of the rule,
rather than being something from which one can derive that part of the rule.


Your earlier post had


2) Activating Nomads en-Kor infinite times. Everyone agreed spamming the stack and never passing priority is ridiculous. A finite number must be chosen.

, so I was just bringing up that this example would not require never passing priority:
If the loop rule distinguished based on passes of priority rather than turns,
then it would still stop optional never-passing-priority loops from creating draws,
but would not stop Nomads en-Kor from forcing a draw.
(In fact, I now realize that the "During the opponent's turn,"
part of my description was not necessary.)



I can't think of any way to get an optional never-passing-priority loop under normal rules
- whether for regular MtG or card-blind - but round rules could certainly allow such loops:

For example, if the round rule was
"Whenever a player taps a land for mana, if that player spent mana to
activate that mana ability, that player can't activate mana abilities until
this ability finishes resolving. That player may pay :2:. If that player does,
untap that land and that player adds one mana of any color."
, then 1 other mana plus a corresponding filter land would allow such a loop.
( https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Filter_land )

[FTW]

Like I mentioned to Asthereal, this is assuming the relevant part of the rule,
rather than being something from which one can derive that part of the rule.

Technically it's assuming normal Magic rules. Normally in Magic you can't activate Nomads infinitely just to stall.

It just fails to be a case where we would amend the rule for 4CB.



If the loop rule distinguished based on passes of priority rather than turns,

Notice the rule we added said nothing about passing priority.

What you quoted was just an anecdotal example I mentioned. For the example, perhaps I used the wrong words with "pass priority". Should have said "passed turn". Yes, you could technically pass priority but still create an infinite Nomads loop within a single phase (although it shortcuts to the same thing anyway in a game with perfect information, since you know opponent cannot intervene).

The rule was based on turns, not priority. The technical wording is in the quote from PJim. I paraphrased examples that came up in our past discussion, but those don't define the rule.


The simplest way to define whether the loop is allowed to be infinite or not is based on the passing of turns.
If turns keep passing but the game state does not progress by turn n, as n increases to infinity, then the game is a draw. (It's only an infinite loop because infinite turns pass without either player winning)
If the optional loop is only infinite within a turn (i.e. the game is not allowed to reach turn n), then the loop must terminate if possible.
That's the distinction between a stalemate and just trying to freeze the game.

[Asthereal]

The simplest way to define whether the loop is allowed to be infinite or not is based on the passing of turns.
If turns keep passing but the game state does not progress by turn n, as n increases to infinity, then the game is a draw. (It's only an infinite loop because infinite turns pass without either player winning)
If the optional loop is only infinite within a turn (i.e. the game is not allowed to reach turn n), then the loop must terminate if possible.
That's the distinction between a stalemate and just trying to freeze the game.
This seems like a good idea. I'll add it to the rule in the first post, assuming most of you are okay with it.

[Reeplcheep]

You can still freeze the game through the turn requirement, for example Chronatog plus Teferi’s protection is basically the same thing as nomad el kor but would be a draw.

[Asthereal]

You can still freeze the game through the turn requirement, for example Chronatog plus Teferi’s protection is basically the same thing as nomad el kor but would be a draw.
If someone pulls that off I want it to be on record that I support them getting that draw.
That combo is amazing! :laugh:

[FTW]

You can still freeze the game through the turn requirement, for example Chronatog plus Teferi’s protection is basically the same thing as nomad el kor but would be a draw.

That's different though. That's like casting infinite Time Walks (letting infinite turns pass without opponent able to kill you). Asthereal said that was legal.

Or just playing a card like Energy Field or Island Sanctuary. The game still continues. Opponent just can't breach your prison. In normal Magic these aren't really infinite loops either, because other factors could allow the game to end (decking, time on the clock, or casting other cards drawn from library). Card Blind is unique because there is no clock, no decking, and no other cards to draw, and that's what makes these things loops.

With Nomads en-Kor the game is not continuing. You're trying to stop the turn from ending by taking infinite actions.

Chronatog+Teferi's Protection would be legal in a Legacy tournament. The game would just usually end due to decking, time running out on the clock, or concession.
Edit: Nevermind, if Chronatog isn't in play and you cast it afterwards then it doesn't phase out and the combo works, although Chronatog is a sitting duck for removal.

[alphastryk]

If you managed to sequence casting Teferi's Protection and then Chronatog after floating the mana, it works. And honestly, if you get to the point where you have :3::u::w: and resolve both in order just to force a draw? I'm impressed with the dedication.

[silkster]

Oh man, did I ever misunderstand the round rules. My starting point was Shadow Guildmage because I thought each nonland card had to have 3 different mana costs, but not necessarily as casting costs, and finding 1-drops with that restriction was tough. I did also wonder why it was so similar to next round's rules, and also that both rounds might have a lot of lands-only decks.



Chronatog+Teferi's Protection would be legal in a Legacy tournament. The game would just usually end due to decking, time running out on the clock, or concession.

It would be funny if you managed this and your opponent had no removal, and then you lost to Platinum Angel or Gideon of the Trials emblem.

[Asthereal]

Deadline has passed and I'm at just 12 entries.
Looks like I'm missing entries from Gobbo, FTW, Tylert, jhhdk, and shifty (though that last one may hav edecided this wasn't for them).

I'll give you guys a few more hours while I do some work.

EDIT: While I was typing this, matta sent his deck in.

[Tylert]

Deadline has passed and I'm at just 12 entries.
Looks like I'm missing entries from Gobbo, FTW, Tylert, jhhdk, and shifty (though that last one may hav edecided this wasn't for them).

I'll give you guys a few more hours while I do some work.

EDIT: While I was typing this, matta sent his deck in.

I Built something in 5 mins... sent.

[Asthereal]

Just jhhdk to go now. I'll give you a few more hours, but don't wait too long!

[Asthereal]

I think jhhdk is on holiday. Let's get this round going.


DECKS FOR ROUND 8 OF SEASON 10: Deviant Legacy Bannathon

This round we play Cornucopia: Non-land cards in each deck must in total contain at least 3 different colored mana symbols in their mana costs. Hybrid mana symbols count for 1, and so does phyrexian mana. For modal and/or double-faced cards, both side/modes count.

The entries:
1. Asthereal (TO): Tropical Island, Durkwood Baloth, Dismember, Daze
2. Wrath of Pie: Chancellor of the Tangle, Aether Vial, Myr Superion, Deputy of Detention
3. Phasmoid: Mana Confluence, Shivan Sand-Mage, Durkwood Baloth, Corpulent Corpse
4. RoosterCocoa: Hickory Woodlot, Twilight Mire, Grist, the Hunger Tide, Fulminator Mage
5. dte: Gemstone mine, lightning bolt, serene remembrance, Encroach
6. Reeplcheep: Tundra, Daze, cenn’s tactician, Dismember
7. PJim: Tundra, Chancellor of the Tangle, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Stormscape Apprentice
8. alphastryk: Gemstone Mine, Old-Growth Dryads, Encroach, Swords to Plowshares
9. H: Badlands, Inkmoth Nexus, Valentin, Dean of the Vein, Furor of the Bitten
10. silkster: Undiscovered Paradise, Swords to Plowshares, Swarm Shambler, Evil Presence
11. Serguei: Remote Farm, Interplanar beacon, Grist, the Hunger Tide, Kaya, Orzhov Usurper
12. maxx!: Scrubland, Cenn’s Tactician, Encroach, Dismember
13. mattamort: Durkwood Baloth, Dismember, Tropical Island, Daze
14. GoblinSmashmaster: Swamp, Dark Ritual, Sorin, Imperious Bloodlord, Licia, Sanguine Tribune
15. Tylert: Karakas, Student of warfare, Dismember, Noxious revival
16. FTW: Undiscovered Paradise, Duress, Swords to Plowshares, Stromkirk Noble

Please post your scores and cross-check with the opponents.
You can also enter your scores in the Google Spreadsheet for the season which you can find here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1M2zwN9zxSe7IwiJmZH8eGXeNpEjqspR_SWT5d3Hqqac/edit?usp=sharing

[FTW]

16. FTW: Undiscovered Paradise, Duress, Swords to Plowshares, Stromkirk Noble

Interesting meta. I almost played the Dismember + Daze deck but thought it would be too easy for people to play around Daze and went for Duress instead. I thought about Vial a lot too, but it seemed too slow against T2 combos.


1. Asthereal (TO): OTP I play Stromkirk. You Dismember it, so I Duress Daze and then StP Baloth to draw. (If you suspend Baloth first, I try to Duress Dismember and you're forced to Daze that otherwise Stromkirk outgrows Baloth, then you Dismember me and I StP you anyway). OTD you suspend Baloth. I Duress, which trades with Daze. Then we kill each others' creatures. DD 2-2
2. Wrath of Pie: OTP Duress takes Vial and I win. OTD you play Vial first, Duress is a blank and I play 1/1 Stromkirk. I have to StP either Superior or Deputy and lose to the other. WL 3-3
3. Phasmoid: Edit: You make all 3 creatures on Turn 6. I Dismember the Baloth, but then my 5/5-6/6 Stromkirk draws vs your 3/3+3/2. DD 2-2
4. RoosterCocoa: Edit: Grist somehow dodges both Duress (creature in hand) and Dismember (noncreature in play), so Grist beats me. LL 0-6
5. dte: Encroach was probably better than Duress. OTP I Duress Serene Remembrance and Bolt kills Stromkirk to draw. OTD you Encroach me and I lose. DL 1-4
6. Reeplcheep: Same as the Baloth matchup. We remove each others stuff. DD 2-2
7. PJim: Nice deck! I can't kill Thalia. Both your creatures are Human so you can't block me, but you can tap it down forever and win with Thalia. LL 0-6
8. alphastryk: OTP I Duress StP, you make Dryads, I StP your guy and mine wins. OTD I lose to Encroach. WL 3-3

9. H: Cool deck. OTP I play Stromkirk. You play Vampire. I StP it, become 2/2, and then race Inkmoth.
OTD you make Vampire first. I play Stromkirk. If you cast Furor, then I StP you, become 2/2 and race Inkmoth. If you just hold open mana though, then you can trade with Stromkirk (with either Inkmoth or 1/1 Vampire) and we draw after I StP the other. WD 4-1

10. silkster: Luckily my land's delayed return trigger ignores Sea's Claim effects. OTP and OTD I Duress StP, StP your guy, and Stromkirk stares at a 1/1 Insect. DD 2-2
11. Serguei: Edit: Grist embarrasses my deck being a card that dodges both Duress and Dismember (creature at all the wrong times for me). LL 0-6
12. maxx!: OTP Duress takes Dismember, StP kills Tactician, and Stromkirk wins. OTD Encroach beats me. WL 3-3
13. mattamort: Same as Asthereal. DD 2-2
14. GoblinSmashmaster: OTP I Duress Sorin. OTD I StP your turn 1 fatty. WW 6-0
15. Tylert: I Duress Dismember and StP Student. You can't save Student, so you Noxious Revival to get back Dismember and draw. DD 2-2

32 points (6 wins, 14 draws, 10 loss)

Too many draws. Always the problem with 2 answer + 1 threat decks. I forgot about Swarm Shambler. My deck would have been much better with that over Stromkirk.

[Serguei]

16. FTW: Undiscovered Paradise, Duress, Swords to Plowshares, Stromkirk Noble

11. Serguei: Pretty sure this ends up as a draw either way, but I'll revisit later. DD 2-2


I am not so sure grist is a creature in my hand ;) and even if not you will not be able to manage kaya

[mattamort]

My deck: Durkwood Baloth, Dismember, Tropical Island, Daze

I did not like it much but was unable to be convince by anything. I thought push would be mored played. I had for a long time Swarm in the Baloth slot and switch at last minute for this reason + looks to be better with daze I expected. But it was not in practice and I should have kept it. Leaving a body behind was huge against a lot of decks. I had encroach deck, but I always forget 3-3 is better than 2-2 thats why I didnt submit.

1. Asthereal (TO): Tropical Island, Durkwood Baloth, Dismember, Daze
-> DD, no way to break symetry
2 Pts
2. Wrath of Pie: Chancellor of the Tangle, Aether Vial, Myr Superion, Deputy of Detention
-> WL, OTP Vial get countered, OTD Superion escape
5 Pts
3. Phasmoid: Mana Confluence, Shivan Sand-Mage, Durkwood Baloth, Corpulent Corpse
-> LL
Daze is bad here
5Pts
4. RoosterCocoa: Hickory Woodlot, Twilight Mire, Grist, the Hunger Tide, Fulminator Mage
-> LL
Daze is bad here
5Pts
5. dte: Gemstone mine, lightning bolt, serene remembrance, Encroach
-> WL OTD, I can not deal with encroach, OTP you can not deal with baloth
8 Pts
6. Reeplcheep: Tundra, Daze, cenn’s tactician, Dismember
-> DD
10 Pts
7. PJim: Tundra, Chancellor of the Tangle, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Stormscape Apprentice
-> WL
13 Pts
8. alphastryk: Gemstone Mine, Old-Growth Dryads, Encroach, Swords to Plowshares
-> WL
16 Pts
9. H: Badlands, Inkmoth Nexus, Valentin, Dean of the Vein, Furor of the Bitten
-> WW
22 Pts
10. silkster: Undiscovered Paradise, Swords to Plowshares, Swarm Shambler, Evil Presence
-> WW
I kill Shambler the turn it is played and counter STP on baloth 5/5 > 1/1
28 Pts
11. Serguei: Remote Farm, Interplanar beacon, Grist, the Hunger Tide, Kaya, Orzhov Usurper
Grist is countered, Kaya is too slow vs Baloth
-> WW
34 Pts
12. maxx!: Scrubland, Cenn’s Tactician, Encroach, Dismember
-> WL
37 Pts
14. GoblinSmashmaster: Swamp, Dark Ritual, Sorin, Imperious Bloodlord, Licia, Sanguine Tribune
-> WL
Side Note : I loved this deck, but found it too vulnerable to STP but it pays off with this meta :D
40 Pts
15. Tylert: Karakas, Student of warfare, Dismember, Noxious revival
-> DD
42 Pts
16. FTW: Undiscovered Paradise, Duress, Swords to Plowshares, Stromkirk Noble
-> DD
44 Pts

12W 8D 10L

Not great but could be worse as well

[Phasmoid]

3. Phasmoid: If I understand your deck right, on turn 5 you get both Sand Mage and Baloth (or Corpse) and the other comes in much later on turn 8. Or you can get turn 5 Sand Mage -> turn 6 Baloth/Corpse -> turn 7 Corpse/Baloth.

I can alternatively wait till T2 to suspend Sand Mage, so that I get all 3 of my creatures on T6.
I believe that is enough for DD 2-2 against you.


(I will probably make my results-post tomorrow: I don't have time right now.)

[Asthereal]

My deck: Durkwood Baloth, Dismember, Tropical Island, Daze

I did not like it much but was unable to be convince by anything. I thought push would be mored played. I had for a long time Swarm in the Baloth slot and switch at last minute for this reason + looks to be better with daze I expected. But it was not in practice and I should have kept it. Leaving a body behind was huge against a lot of decks. I had encroach deck, but I always forget 3-3 is better than 2-2 thats why I didnt submit.

1. Asthereal (TO): Tropical Island, Durkwood Baloth, Dismember, Daze
-> DD, no way to break symetry
2 Pts
2. Wrath of Pie: Chancellor of the Tangle, Aether Vial, Myr Superion, Deputy of Detention
-> WL, OTP Vial get countered, OTD Superion escape
5 Pts
3. Phasmoid: Mana Confluence, Shivan Sand-Mage, Durkwood Baloth, Corpulent Corpse
-> LL
Daze is bad here
5Pts
4. RoosterCocoa: Hickory Woodlot, Twilight Mire, Grist, the Hunger Tide, Fulminator Mage
-> LL
Daze is bad here
5Pts
5. dte: Gemstone mine, lightning bolt, serene remembrance, Encroach
-> WL OTD, I can not deal with encroach, OTP you can not deal with baloth
8 Pts
6. Reeplcheep: Tundra, Daze, cenn’s tactician, Dismember
-> DD
10 Pts
7. PJim: Tundra, Chancellor of the Tangle, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Stormscape Apprentice
-> WL
13 Pts
8. alphastryk: Gemstone Mine, Old-Growth Dryads, Encroach, Swords to Plowshares
-> WL
16 Pts
9. H: Badlands, Inkmoth Nexus, Valentin, Dean of the Vein, Furor of the Bitten
-> WW
22 Pts
10. silkster: Undiscovered Paradise, Swords to Plowshares, Swarm Shambler, Evil Presence
-> WW
I kill Shambler the turn it is played and counter STP on baloth 5/5 > 1/1
28 Pts
11. Serguei: Remote Farm, Interplanar beacon, Grist, the Hunger Tide, Kaya, Orzhov Usurper
Grist is countered, Kaya is too slow vs Baloth
-> WW
34 Pts
12. maxx!: Scrubland, Cenn’s Tactician, Encroach, Dismember
-> WL
37 Pts
14. GoblinSmashmaster: Swamp, Dark Ritual, Sorin, Imperious Bloodlord, Licia, Sanguine Tribune
-> WL
Side Note : I loved this deck, but found it too vulnerable to STP but it pays off with this meta :D
40 Pts
15. Tylert: Karakas, Student of warfare, Dismember, Noxious revival
-> DD
42 Pts
16. FTW: Undiscovered Paradise, Duress, Swords to Plowshares, Stromkirk Noble
-> DD
44 Pts

12W 8D 10L

Not great but could be worse as well
I believe I shall score similarly to this man of culture.

[Serguei]

9. H: Badlands, Inkmoth Nexus, Valentin, Dean of the Vein, Furor of the Bitten


It won't change anything to my result but I believe that Valentin is only black anywhere. So I am not sure it is match rule of the round

[alphastryk]

I couldn't find any better plan than Encroach, even though its not so great on the draw. The fact that everyone essentially must play nonbasic to accommodate the round rule, and likely need all their lands to cast their spells made it really appealing. Did not put nearly as much thought into my other card choices though, did not spend a ton of time there, just picked a 3/3 and a removal spell. In retrospect, something like Isolate would have been a better removal spell for basically anything that gets under / around Encroach.

1. Asthereal (TO): Tropical Island, Durkwood Baloth, Dismember, Daze
OTP Encroach wins it, OTD I can't beat Daze & Dismember. WL

3-3

2. Wrath of Pie: Chancellor of the Tangle, Aether Vial, Myr Superion, Deputy of Detention
Encroach is a blank, and I can't race. Isolate would have been great here. LL

0-6

3. Phasmoid: Mana Confluence, Shivan Sand-Mage, Durkwood Baloth, Corpulent Corpse
OTP Encroach wins it, and OTD I can still Encroach and then StP whichever threat you suspended when it arrives. WW

6-0


4. RoosterCocoa: Hickory Woodlot, Twilight Mire, Grist, the Hunger Tide, Fulminator Mage
Encroach always prevents you from getting to 3 mana. WW

6-0

5. dte: Gemstone mine, lightning bolt, serene remembrance, Encroach
Encroach is the only card that matters, so whoever is OTP wins. WL

3-3

6. Reeplcheep: Tundra, Daze, cenn’s tactician, Dismember
OTP Encroach wins it, OTD I can't beat Daze & Dismember. WL

3-3

7. PJim: Tundra, Chancellor of the Tangle, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Stormscape Apprentice
OTP Encroach wins it, OTD I can't beat Thalia + Apprentice. WL

3-3

8. alphastryk: Gemstone Mine, Old-Growth Dryads, Encroach, Swords to Plowshares
This is me

9. H: Badlands, Inkmoth Nexus, Valentin, Dean of the Vein, Furor of the Bitten
OTP Encroach on Badlands wins it. OTD, I should always be able to Encroach Inkmoth and StP Valentin. WW

6-0

10. silkster: Undiscovered Paradise, Swords to Plowshares, Swarm Shambler, Evil Presence
Swarm Shambler is a much better threat than my Dryads, forgot that existed. OTP Encroach does the trick, OTD Evil Presence does me in. WL

3-3

11. Serguei: Remote Farm, Interplanar beacon, Grist, the Hunger Tide, Kaya, Orzhov Usurper
Encroach always keeps you off of 3 mana. WW

6-0

12. maxx!: Scrubland, Cenn’s Tactician, Encroach, Dismember
Whoever is OTP wins with Encroach. WL

3-3

13. mattamort: Durkwood Baloth, Dismember, Tropical Island, Daze
OTP Encroach wins it, OTD I can't beat Daze & Dismember. WL

3-3

14. GoblinSmashmaster: Swamp, Dark Ritual, Sorin, Imperious Bloodlord, Licia, Sanguine Tribune
StP should always beat your giant Vampire. WW

6-0

15. Tylert: Karakas, Student of warfare, Dismember, Noxious revival
Noxious Revival is pretty good tech in the Encroach meta. StP always beats Student, but Dismember always beats Dryads, so we stare. DD

2-2


16. FTW: Undiscovered Paradise, Duress, Swords to Plowshares, Stromkirk Noble
OTP Encroach wins it, OTD you can Duress StP, and your StP beats my Dryads. WL

3-3

Total: 56 points.

Turns out, with all the suspend threats that Swords to Plowshares was much better than Isolate after all.

[H]

It won't change anything to my result but I believe that Valentin is only black anywhere. So I am not sure it is match rule of the round

Well, you are right, it is only Black, but the round rules specifically state:


For modal and/or double-faced cards, both side/modes count.

And we care about mana costs for the round, not the card's color(s).

[Serguei]

Again I choose the wrong deck and moreover the wrong version of my deck :)

11. Serguei: Remote Farm, Interplanar beacon, Grist, the Hunger Tide, Kaya, Orzhov Usurper

I should definitively have gone with teferi, time raveler instead of kaya

I have also a pretty fasty deck but I do not know why I did not choose him
Badlands +Vengevine +putrid imp + red rootwala


1. Asthereal (TO): Tropical Island, Durkwood Baloth, Dismember, Daze
LL lose to daze

2. Wrath of Pie: Chancellor of the Tangle, Aether Vial, Myr Superion, Deputy of Detention
Kaya removes vial before you can put in play anything
WW 6 pts ->6 pts

3. Phasmoid: Mana Confluence, Shivan Sand-Mage, Durkwood Baloth, Corpulent Corpse
Kaya does noting here so everything is on Grists shoulders
OTP t2 grist 1Tand I will up like this several turns
T5 it will be Grist with 7 loy and 4 tokens
If you have chosen for t1 shivan and t2 baloth
2 tokens will eat your shivan and another one will block balot
On my t6 I will down grist to5 loyalty counter and kill your baloth. Then grist will win pretty easily over Corpse

If you have chosen the slow play to have all 3 creatures in t6. Grist will be at 8 of loyalty and I will have 5 tokens.
3 will block and kill corpse. 2 will block Shivan and kill it. Baloth will down grist to 3 loyalty counters. After I will up grist and block until grist goes high enough to take damage and kills your baloth.

And OTD I will be too slow sadly.
WL 3 pts -> 9 pts


4. RoosterCocoa: Hickory Woodlot, Twilight Mire, Grist, the Hunger Tide, Fulminator Mage
The first who plays grist wins
WL 3 pts -> 12pts

5. dte: Gemstone mine, lightning bolt, serene remembrance, Encroach
LL

6. Reeplcheep: Tundra, Daze, cenn’s tactician, Dismember
Daze will manage 1 PW the oteh will kill you
WW 6 pts - > 18 pts

7. PJim: Tundra, Chancellor of the Tangle, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Stormscape Apprentice
LL

8. alphastryk: Gemstone Mine, Old-Growth Dryads, Encroach, Swords to Plowshares
LL

9. H: Badlands, Inkmoth Nexus, Valentin, Dean of the Vein, Furor of the Bitten
WW 6 pts -> 24 pts

10. silkster: Undiscovered Paradise, Swords to Plowshares, Swarm Shambler, Evil Presence
LL

12. maxx!: Scrubland, Cenn’s Tactician, Encroach, Dismember
LL

13. mattamort: Durkwood Baloth, Dismember, Tropical Island, Daze
LL

14. GoblinSmashmaster: Swamp, Dark Ritual, Sorin, Imperious Bloodlord, Licia, Sanguine Tribune
Grist tokens will be able to block forever Licia
DD 2pts -> 26 pts

15. Tylert: Karakas, Student of warfare, Dismember, Noxious revival
WW 6 pts -> 32 pts

16. FTW: Undiscovered Paradise, Duress, Swords to Plowshares, Stromkirk Noble
WW 6 pts -> 38 pts

[Wrath of Pie]

2. Wrath of Pie: Chancellor of the Tangle, Aether Vial, Myr Superion, Deputy of Detention

1. Asthereal (TO): Tropical Island, Durkwood Baloth, Dismember, Daze WL
3. Phasmoid: Mana Confluence, Shivan Sand-Mage, Durkwood Baloth, Corpulent Corpse WW
4. RoosterCocoa: Hickory Woodlot, Twilight Mire, Grist, the Hunger Tide, Fulminator Mage WW - I was expecting a lot of land hate, so Vial looked good in the face of that.
5. dte: Gemstone mine, lightning bolt, serene remembrance, Encroach WW
6. Reeplcheep: Tundra, Daze, cenn’s tactician, Dismember WL
7. PJim: Tundra, Chancellor of the Tangle, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Stormscape Apprentice WL
8. alphastryk: Gemstone Mine, Old-Growth Dryads, Encroach, Swords to Plowshares WW
9. H: Badlands, Inkmoth Nexus, Valentin, Dean of the Vein, Furor of the Bitten WW
10. silkster: Undiscovered Paradise, Swords to Plowshares, Swarm Shambler, Evil Presence WW
11. Serguei: Remote Farm, Interplanar beacon, Grist, the Hunger Tide, Kaya, Orzhov Usurper LL - Kaya is solid tech.
12. maxx!: Scrubland, Cenn’s Tactician, Encroach, Dismember WW
13. mattamort: Durkwood Baloth, Dismember, Tropical Island, Daze WL
14. GoblinSmashmaster: Swamp, Dark Ritual, Sorin, Imperious Bloodlord, Licia, Sanguine Tribune WL
15. Tylert: Karakas, Student of warfare, Dismember, Noxious revival WW - I can't believe you missed an opportunity to play Aether Vial.
16. FTW: Undiscovered Paradise, Duress, Swords to Plowshares, Stromkirk Noble WL

22w = 66 points

I saw the one-drop plan, but I couldn't miss a chance to play Vial when it had a chance to be good. (Banned pitch discard spells helped make the decision easier.)

[Tylert]

15. Tylert: Karakas, Student of warfare, Dismember, Noxious revival WW - I can't believe you missed an opportunity to play Aether Vial.


I'm in hollidays. litterally spent 5 minutes on my deck.

[Asthereal]

It won't change anything to my result but I believe that Valentin is only black anywhere. So I am not sure it is match rule of the round
I announced somewhere that both sides of a double-faced card count towards the round rule. So this is legal.

EDIT: I see H has already answered this, and better than me. I'll keep my focus on work. :wink:

[RoosterCocoa]

16. FTW: Undiscovered Paradise, Duress, Swords to Plowshares, Stromkirk Noble

4. RoosterCocoa: OTP I make T1 Stromkirk. You play tapped land. I Duress Grist and become 2/2. You make Fulminator Mage. If you don't sac to kill my land, I StP it, so either way Stromkirk wins uncontested.
OTD you play tapped Woodlot. I Duress Grist. You make Fulminator. Letting me untap is bad (I cast Stromkirk, then same problem as OTP), so you kill my land now to draw.
WD 4-1


Grist is a creature in addition to its normal types when it's in my hand, so it can't be hit by Duress. I think this means I win both on the play and the draw because you can't kill Grist once I resolve it.

[Reeplcheep]

How does Cenn interact with menace?

[alphastryk]

How does Cenn interact with menace?

Can block an extra creature doesn't help against "can only be blocked by 2 or more", so Menace gets past it.

[GoblinSmashmaster]

GoblinSmashmaster Results for Round "Dismember"

1. Asthereal (TO): Tropical Island, Durkwood Baloth, Dismember, Daze
Daze 3-3

2. Wrath of Pie: Chancellor of the Tangle, Aether Vial, Myr Superion, Deputy of Detention
I did not shoot the Deputy 3-3

3. Phasmoid: Mana Confluence, Shivan Sand-Mage, Durkwood Baloth, Corpulent Corpse
Licia smash! 6-0

4. RoosterCocoa: Hickory Woodlot, Twilight Mire, Grist, the Hunger Tide, Fulminator Mage
Mage 0-6

5. dte: Gemstone mine, lightning bolt, serene remembrance, Encroach
Licia smash! 6-0

6. Reeplcheep: Tundra, Daze, cenn’s tactician, Dismember
Daze 3-3

7. PJim: Tundra, Chancellor of the Tangle, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Stormscape Apprentice
Thalia 3-3

8. alphastryk: Gemstone Mine, Old-Growth Dryads, Encroach, Swords to Plowshares
Swords :( 0-6

9. H: Badlands, Inkmoth Nexus, Valentin, Dean of the Vein, Furor of the Bitten
Licia smash! 6-0

10. silkster: Undiscovered Paradise, Swords to Plowshares, Swarm Shambler, Evil Presence
Swords 0-6

11. Serguei: Remote Farm, Interplanar beacon, Grist, the Hunger Tide, Kaya, Orzhov Usurper
Grist 2-2

12. maxx!: Scrubland, Cenn’s Tactician, Encroach, Dismember
Licia smash! 6-0

13. mattamort: Durkwood Baloth, Dismember, Tropical Island, Daze
Daze 3-3

14. GoblinSmashmaster: Swamp, Dark Ritual, Sorin, Imperious Bloodlord, Licia, Sanguine Tribune
That's me playing a better Goblin Lackey

15. Tylert: Karakas, Student of warfare, Dismember, Noxious revival
Karakas 0-6

16. FTW: Undiscovered Paradise, Duress, Swords to Plowshares, Stromkirk Noble
Swords 3-3

Total: 44 points

[RoosterCocoa]

4. RoosterCocoa: Hickory Woodlot, Twilight Mire, Grist, the Hunger Tide, Fulminator Mage

1. Asthereal (TO): Tropical Island, Durkwood Baloth, Dismember, Daze
You have to Daze my Fulminator Mage since otherwise it will destroy your land and you won't be able to cast Daze or Dismember. This means that Grist resolves, and it wins against the Baloth and Dismember. WW

2. Wrath of Pie: Chancellor of the Tangle, Aether Vial, Myr Superion, Deputy of Detention
Deputy exiles Grist and I am sad. LL

3. Phasmoid: Mana Confluence, Shivan Sand-Mage, Durkwood Baloth, Corpulent Corpse
OTP you can only suspend 1 card before I blow up your land, and Grist has created enough tokens once it comes out of suspend to chump block its attack and then -2 to kill it, before winning with Grist's +1. OTD you can suspend 2 cards. Grist's tokens are black, so Corpse is just a worse Baloth, so I will only consider the cases when you suspend Baloth and then Corpse or when you suspend Sand-Mage and then Baloth. If you suspend Baloth and then Corpse, Baloth comes into play on turn 6 and then Corpse on turn 7. I blow up your land on my turn 2, then play Grist on my turn 3. I +1 Grist each turn until your creatures come into play, so by your turn 6 Grist is at 6 loyalty and I have 3 1/1s. This means when your Baloth comes into play, I chump block its attack and then on my turn -2 Grist to kill it. This leaves Grist at 4 loyalty and me with a single 1/1. When your Corpse comes into play, Grist can eat an attack from it, then +1 and chump block every turn until Grist has enough loyalty to -2 and kill it, meaning I eventually win. Let us then consider the case when you suspend Sand-Mage and then Baloth. If I try to blow up your land, your creatures are too fast and kill Grist, so instead I play Grist on turn 2 and Fulminator Mage on turn 3, and don't sacrifice the Mage. This means you suspend Corpse on you turn 3, so Sand-Mage and Baloth will come out of suspend on your turn 5, and Corpse will come out of suspend on your turn 8. On your turn 5, Grist is at 6 loyalty and I have Fulminator Mage and 3 1/1s. I block Sand-Mage with Fulminator Mage and chump Baloth with a 1/1. On my next turn I then -2 Grist to kill the Baloth. I am still left with a 1/1, so by the time Corpse comes out of suspend I can chump block it and then -2 Grist to kill it, meaning I win. WW

5. dte: Gemstone mine, lightning bolt, serene remembrance, Encroach
I can't beat Encroach. LL

6. Reeplcheep: Tundra, Daze, cenn’s tactician, Dismember
OTD you play Tactician on turn 1. On turn 2 you make it a 2/2, then on my turn you Daze my Fulminator Mage since otherwise you will never be able to cast Daze. On turn 3 you make Tactician a 3/3, and on my turn I play Grist, using its +1 to make a 1/1 and put it at 4 loyalty. On your turn you can Dismember the 1/1 and put Grist to 1 loyalty, but this ends with Grist killing you by making a 1/1 to chump block Tactician every turn until it can absorb an attack and then use its -2 to kill Tactician. If you don't Dismember this turn it ends the same way, since I can always chump block Tactician when it could kill Grist, so I win. OTP it is even better for me. WW

7. PJim: Tundra, Chancellor of the Tangle, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Stormscape Apprentice
Since Grist is a creature on the stack, I think it avoids the Thalia tax. If so, Grist making a 1/1 each turn and then eventually killing your creatures is too much for you. However, I am not really sure about the Grist Thalia interaction, so someone who knows the rules better please let me know if I'm wrong. Tentative WW

8. alphastryk: Gemstone Mine, Old-Growth Dryads, Encroach, Swords to Plowshares
I can't beat Encroach. LL

9. H: Badlands, Inkmoth Nexus, Valentin, Dean of the Vein, Furor of the Bitten
OTP I play Woodlot, then you play Valentin, then on my turn 2 I blow up Badlands so you can't play anything else or attack with Nexus. I get enough 1/1 insects from Grist to block Valentin before Grist can be killed, so I eventually win. OTD you play Valentin on turn 1, then put Furor on it on turn 2 and attack me down to 17, bringing you to 23. On my turn 2 I play Fulminator Mage. On your turn 3 you attack me down to 14 with Valentin and go up to 26, and put 1 poison counter on me by attacking with Nexus. On my turn 3 I play Grist and +1 it to make a 1/1 insect. On your next turn you have to attack with Valentin, so I can block it with both the Mage and the insect to kill it, and you go up to 29 life. You can either attack with Nexus this turn or use Valentin's ability to make a 1/1 pest. No matter what I do I think I die to poison before I can kill you, and I can't find a way to both kill Nexus with Fulminator Mage and not lose Grist to Valentin, so I lose. WL

10. silkster: Undiscovered Paradise, Swords to Plowshares, Swarm Shambler, Evil Presence
I can't beat Evil Presence. LL

11. Serguei: Remote Farm, Interplanar beacon, Grist, the Hunger Tide, Kaya, Orzhov Usurper
OTP I blow up one of your lands before you can play anything and win. OTD you play Grist on turn 2 and +1 it, I play Fulminator Mage, you play Kaya and -2 Grist to kill Mage. Then I can play Grist but can't keep creatures due to Kaya's -1 before my Grist is killed, so I lose. WL

12. maxx!: Scrubland, Cenn’s Tactician, Encroach, Dismember
I can't beat Encroach. LL

13. mattamort: Durkwood Baloth, Dismember, Tropical Island, Daze
Same as Asthereal, WW

14. GoblinSmashmaster: Swamp, Dark Ritual, Sorin, Imperious Bloodlord, Licia, Sanguine Tribune
OTD you play Sorin and then Licia on turn 1. On turn 2 you put 4 +1/+1 counters on Licia and attack me down to 12. On my turn 2 I play Grist and +1 to make an Insect. Licia does not have trample or flying, and Sorin can only kill the Insect by sacrificing Licia, so I can chump block your turn 3 attack. On my turn 3 I play Fulminator Mage and -2 Grist sacrificing Mage to kill Licia. I then can eventually kill you with Insects since Sorin can't do anything without other vampires. OTP I kill Licia even faster. WW

15. Tylert: Karakas, Student of warfare, Dismember, Noxious revival
I blow up Karakas and level 2 Student can't get through Grist creating a 1/1 each turn until it has enough loyalty to absorb a hit from Student and then -2 to kill it, so I win. WW

16. FTW: Undiscovered Paradise, Duress, Swords to Plowshares, Stromkirk Noble Duress does nothing because Grist is a creature in my hand. OTD, you play Noble turn 1, then on turn 2 attack and make it a 2/2. On my turn 2, I blow up your land. On your turn 3, you attack me and make Noble a 3/3. On my turn 3, I play Grist and make a 1/1 each turn to chump block Noble until it has enough loyalty to take a hit from Noble and then -2 to kill it, before going on to win the game. OTP Noble is smaller so it is even better for me. WW

18W 0D 12L = 54

Fairly good given I had no clue what anyone else was going to play other than land destruction. Fulminator Mage wasn't great, I probably should have found another threat that meant I didn't just lose to decks with 1 mana land destruction.

[Reeplcheep]

Perhaps someone has mentioned this, but isn’t Max’s deck illegal?

[Wrath of Pie]

Perhaps someone has mentioned this, but isn’t Max’s deck illegal?
Black Phyrexian mana and black mana are different mana symbols, so he has three different symbols and thus has a legal entry.

(Colors possibly could have worked better, so everyone could submit Transguild Courier, naturally.)

[maxx!]

maxx!: Scrubland, Cenn’s Tactician, Encroach, Dismember

1. Asthereal (TO): Tropical Island, Durkwood Baloth, Dismember, Daze
OTP Encroach gets your dual land. OTD you have Dismember for my threat and Daze for my removal. 3-3

2. Wrath of Pie: Chancellor of the Tangle, Aether Vial, Myr Superion, Deputy of Detention
Yeesh, no lands at all. You have to keep Vial on 3 until you're ready to Deputy, and I can Dismember to get my Tactician back, but that's gotta be too slow to stop Superion from killing me. 4 attacks will do it, and I can't get Tactician big enough to block in 4 turns. 0-6

3. Phasmoid: Mana Confluence, Shivan Sand-Mage, Durkwood Baloth, Corpulent Corpse
OTP Encroach wins. OTD is tricky. Your threats are super slow, and I can Dismember at least one. I think if I save Dismember for Corpulent Corpse (due to Fear) that I should have time to make Tactician big enough to block your guys while it grows to one shot you. Math below, but there may be a better line for you. Looks like 6-0

4. RoosterCocoa: Hickory Woodlot, Twilight Mire, Grist, the Hunger Tide, Fulminator Mage
Encroach keeps you off 3 mana. 6-0

5. dte: Gemstone mine, lightning bolt, serene remembrance, Encroach
Encroach decks trade. 3-3

6. Reeplcheep: Tundra, Daze, cenn’s tactician, Dismember
Just like Asthereal. 3-3

7. PJim: Tundra, Chancellor of the Tangle, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Stormscape Apprentice
I'm sensing a pattern here. OTP I lock you out. OTD Thalia locks Dismember out, and then Apprentice keeps Tactician tapped forever. 3-3

8. alphastryk: Gemstone Mine, Old-Growth Dryads, Encroach, Swords to Plowshares
Encroach decks trade. 3-3

9. H: Badlands, Inkmoth Nexus, Valentin, Dean of the Vein, Furor of the Bitten
OTP Encroach takes Badlands. OTD Encroach takes Inkmoth, and Dismember kills Valentin. 6-0

10. silkster: Undiscovered Paradise, Swords to Plowshares, Swarm Shambler, Evil Presence
Swarm Shambler seems nuts. Sure wish I had that in my deck instead of Cenn's Tactician. OTP Encroach you. OTD we both have removal for each other's threats, but you get a 1/1 insect left over to kill me. 3-3

11. Serguei: Remote Farm, Interplanar beacon, Grist, the Hunger Tide, Kaya, Orzhov Usurper
Encroach wins this one. 6-0

12. maxx!: Scrubland, Cenn’s Tactician, Encroach, Dismember
This is me :]

13. mattamort: Durkwood Baloth, Dismember, Tropical Island, Daze
See Asthereal. 3-3

14. GoblinSmashmaster: Swamp, Dark Ritual, Sorin, Imperious Bloodlord, Licia, Sanguine Tribune
No nonbasics! Nice deck. OTP I play my land and pass to threaten Dismember on Licia (in response to adding the counters, or on my turn if you don't add counters). Sorin can't kill me by himself so we stare. OTD you get a 7/7 Vampire and I can't stop that. 1-4

15. Tylert: Karakas, Student of warfare, Dismember, Noxious revival
OTP I Encroach, but you actually get to Noxious your land back and play a normal game. We Dismember each other's threats and stare. OTD you get to use Noxious to revive your Student, while Encroach does nothing. 1-4

16. FTW: Undiscovered Paradise, Duress, Swords to Plowshares, Stromkirk Noble
OTP Encroach gets your land. OTD Duress gets Dismember, Swords gets Tactician, and Noble kills me. 3-3

3+0+6+6+3+3+3+3+6+3+6+3+1+1+3 = 50

I've been on the verge of playing Encroach for a few rounds, and a forced 3-color round seemed like a big enough reason to go for it. Looks like several others felt the same way. Pretty interesting round.

----

vs Phasmoid (me OTD)
T1: Shivan Sand-Mage (4) / Cenn's Tactician (1/1)
T2: Durkwood Baloth (DB 5, SSM 3) / pump (CT 2/2)
T3: Corpulent Corpse (CC 5, DB 4, SSM 2) / pump (CT 3/3)
T4: (CC 4, DB 3, SSM 1) / pass (CT 3/3)
T5: SSM removes 2 counters from DB, DB attacks (m: 15, CC 3), EOT pump CT (4/4)
T6: CC 2, DB attacks (m: 10), EOT pump CT (5/5)
T7: CC 1, DB and SSM both attack, CT blocks DB and pumps (m: 7, CT 6/6)
T8: CC and SSM are both available to attack, but CT is untapped as a 6/6 and I have Dismember ready. I Dismember CC (m: 3) and sit back until CT is 17/17 or bigger to attack you.

[Asthereal]

Black Phyrexian mana and black mana are different mana symbols, so he has three different symbols and thus has a legal entry.

(Colors possibly could have worked better, so everyone could submit Transguild Courier, naturally.)
Yeah, I came to that conclusion as well. But when I did, it was a bit late to completely change the premise. So I went for this version.
It's not the best round ever, but thankfully we still have the bannathon and several more rounds that look promising.

[alphastryk]

In retrospect, leaning into the "mana symbols not colors" angle might have been a really clever way to beat all the land destruction. Something like Swamp, Encroach, Rakdos Cackler, Dismember (obviously this deck isn't amazing but you get the idea)

[mattamort]

When was the last time round rule was edited?

It seems different from what I read initially and even if it is my mistake to not read it before submitting, I would have liked to see the mmmchanges.

[Phasmoid]

me: Mana Confluence, Shivan Sand-Mage, Durkwood Baloth, Corpulent Corpse


almost-solely aggro this time
I did not think of Undiscovered Paradise, although I now realize that it would've left me
unable to pay for Daze, so I'm guessing that would've actually made things worse for me.

I suspend my creatures on my first 3 turns, and none of them reach
the stack before my T5, so I can always pay 1 life for a single Daze.


38 points




1. Asthereal (TO): Tropical Island, Durkwood Baloth, Dismember, Daze ​ WW 6-0

I could alternatively win with T2 Sand-Mage to get all of my creatures on T6,
but it’s simpler for me to sequence ​ Sand-Mage , Corpse , Baloth .
Mana Confluence costs me at most 4 life, so I have at least 16 life other than paying for it.
Your Baloth would land on T6, but Sand-Mage lands on T5 and puts
2 time counters on your Baloth, so your Baloth actually lands on T8.
If you don’t dismember Sand-Mage or Corpse before T8, then before T8, you take
3+3+3 damage from Sand-Mage and 3 damage from Corpse, leaving you with 8 life.
In that case, 3 more attacks from Corpse would kill you, you
can’t block it due to fear, and you would need 4 attacks to kill me.
Thus, you’d have to Dismember Corpse anyway, so you might-as-well
Dismember Sand-Mage or Corpse the turn the target lands.
You only get 1 attack before my Baloth lands, so if you Dismember Sand-Mage then
my Baloth holds off yours while Corpse kills you (Fear). ​ Thus you Dismember Corpse.
That costs you 4 life, and Sand-Mage deals 9 damage before T8, bringing you down to 7 life.
You can attack once before my Baloth lands, leaving me with at least 11 life.
That is a life advantage for me, so my 5/5 plus 3/2 beats your 5/5.


2. Wrath of Pie: Chancellor of the Tangle, Aether Vial, Myr Superion, Deputy of Detention ​ LL 0-6

I’m slow-enough that you can land Myr Superion
and have the Deputy ready before I can even attack.
Your Deputy Detains my Corpse the turn after Corpse lands, so Corpse deals at most 3 damage.
My other creatures would just die to Myr Superion, so as long as Myr Superion
stays back, my other creatures combined deal at most 3 damage to you.
Thus your Chancellor lands. It attacks, so I have to double-block, which costs me my Baloth.
Once that happens, Myr Superion starts attacking. It would kill me in 4 unblocked attacks,
whereas I would need at least 5 counterattacks to kill you, so you win.


3. Phasmoid: Mana Confluence, Shivan Sand-Mage, Durkwood Baloth, Corpulent Corpse ​ <- this is me



4. RoosterCocoa: Hickory Woodlot, Twilight Mire, Grist, the Hunger Tide, Fulminator Mage ​ LL 0-6


(This is mainly taken from your results-post, but you omitted the possibility of me using
Sand-Mage to speed up my slower other creature rather than my faster other creature.)

If Sand-Mage is not one of my first 2 suspends, then:
On T2, you Fulminate my land. ​ On T3, you cast Grist and make a token, bringing Grist to 4.
On your next 2 turns, you make 2 more tokens, bringing Grist to 6.
On T6, you block and kill, leaving you with 1 token Grist with 4 loyalty.
After that, you keep blocking and making tokens to increase
Grist’s loyalty until it has enough to survive an attack and a -2.
I can’t deal more than 5 damage to you in that process
(1 attack from Baloth), so Grist’s +1 tokens then win for you.

If Sand-Mage is my T2 suspend, then:
You cast T2 Grist and T3 Mage, and use your mage to hold off mine.
My creatures enter no earlier than T6, at which point you have 4 tokens and Grist has 7 loyalty.
You use 2 tokens to hold off the initial attacks of my 2 non-mage creatures,
and 1 more to kill one of my 2 non-mage creatures.
After that, you keep blocking and making tokens to increase
Grist’s loyalty until it has enough to survive an attack and a -2.
I can’t deal more than 5 damage to you in that process
(1 attack from Baloth), so Grist’s +1 tokens then win for you.

If Sand-Mage is my T1 suspend, then:
You cast T2 Grist and T3 Mage, use your mage to hold off mine,
and +1 Grist at least until I get a creature.
Since your mage holds off mine, if I don’t get something other than Sand-Mage
before T6, then I lose just like the ​ “Sand-Mage is my T2 suspend” ​ case.
Thus, suppose Sand-Mage targets my T2 suspend, so those both enter on T5.
At that point, you have 3 tokens and Grist has 6 loyalty.
On T5, you use 2 tokens and 2 loyalty to block and kill my non-mage creature.
On T6, you make another token, which will let you do the same to my
other non-mage creature, since that creature will only enter on T8.
Your mage holds of my mage, so you then win with Grist’s +1 tokens.



5. dte: Gemstone mine, lightning bolt, serene remembrance, Encroach ​ WL 3-3

When I am OTD, you Encroach upon my Mana Confluence and then your recursion kills me on T31.
When I am OTP, I T1 suspend Baloth, which is all I need. ​ You can’t double-bolt in a single turn,
so you can’t kill Baloth, so Baloth will kill you on T9, which is way before T31.
(You deal 3 damage at a time, so 19 vs 20 life doesn’t affect how long it would take you to kill me.)



6. Reeplcheep: Tundra, Daze, cenn’s tactician, Dismember ​ LL 0-6


You don’t use Daze. ​ You cast T1 Cenn’s Tactician, and your creature will attack if it’s 20/20,
but otherwise you do nothing during your turns after your T1.
On my T3 and T4, you pump your creature to 2/2 and 3/3 respectively.

if Corpse enters on T5 then:
I must have suspended Sand-Mage on T1 and Corpse on T2.
You Dismember Corpse and take 3 damage from Sand-Mage. ​ That leaves you with 13 life.
On my T6 and each of my turns after that, if your creature is smaller than 20/20
then you pump in combat or my end step, depending on whether I attacked.
That means Mage doesn’t attack on T6 or T7, and Tactician will be 5/5 when Baloth enters.
If I attack in, then I deal at most 3 damage to you while
going down to 1 creature, so I lose to your growing creature.
If I don’t, then I have to block when you attack with a 20/20.
My counterattack can only do 5 damage, so you win.

if Baloth enters on T5 then:
I must have suspended Sand-Mage on T1 and Baloth on T2.
On my turns 5 and 6, you don’t block Baloth but block Sand-Mage if able,
and pump in combat or my end step depending on whether Mage attacked.
That means Sand-Mage doesn’t attack on those turns, so you take
10 damage on those turns and pump to 5/5 in my T6 end step.
Starting on T7, if your creature is smaller than 20/20, you block if able and
block Baloth if able, and if you haven’t tapped your land for Dismember,
you pump in combat or my end step depending on whether I attacked.
That makes your creature 6/6 before Corpse lands,
so the mana shortage you might face doesn’t matter.
You Dismember Corpse to stop it from attacking, and aside from
any damage you took on T7, that would leave you with 6 life.
If I attack in on T7 or later, then I deal at most 3 damage to you
while going down to 1 creature, so I lose to your growing creature.
If I don’t, then I have to block when you attack with a 20/20.
My counterattack can only do 5 damage, which leaves you with 1 life, so you win.

if neither Corpse nor Baloth enter on T5:
When Corpse enters, you Dismember it to stop it from attacking.
That will cost you 4 life and 1 pump.
You block Baloth if and only if you can do so without losing you creature.
Otherwise, you block Sand-Mage if able.
Unless your land is tapped for Dismember, you pump in
combat or my end step depending on whether you block.
That means Sand-Mage doesn’t attack on T5.
Baloth may be able to get through on T6 and T7, but Sand-Mage attacking
then gives it up either for nothing or for 3 damage instead of 5 damage.
Thus, just after my T7 and subtracting your life for Dismember, you have at least
6 life and either your creature is 6/6 or it’s 5/5 and you already cast Dismember.
In either case, if I attack in after my T7, then I deal at most 3 damage to you
while going down to 1 creature, so I lose to your growing creature.
If I don’t, then I have to block when you attack with a 20/20.
My counterattack can only do 5 damage, which
leaves you with 1 life after Dismember, so you win.




7. PJim: Tundra, Chancellor of the Tangle, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Stormscape Apprentice ​ WL 3-3



I did not work this match out manually, but instead wrote Python code to solve this matchup. ​ :smile:
Writing the code might’ve taken longer than solving this one manually, but I should be able
to easily modify it for my match against H, and it will likely be helpful in future rounds too.

According to my code, this is WL, and in both games, my best choice is
suspending Sand-Mage on T2 to get all 3 of my creatures on T6, at the cost of 3 life.
On turns ​ 2,3,4 , ​ PJim attacks me for 8 in total, reducing me to 9 life.


optimal continuation according to my Python code when I am OTP:

PJim survives longest not attacking, against which I can just kill him with
whichever of Baloth/Corpse he doesn’t tap, so for most of the rest of this
section I have PJim give priority to coming closer in terms of life totals.
On turns ​ 5,6,7 , ​ Thalia attacks alone, reducing me to 7,5,3 life respectively.
On my T6 and T7, Stormscape Apprentice taps Baloth before I declare attackers,
and my other two creatures attack, reducing PJim to 14 and then 8 life.
On my T8, Stormscape Apprentice taps Baloth before I declare attackers,
and Sand-Mage attacks alone, reducing PJim to 5 life.
PJim could tap Corpse and attack, reducing me to 1 life, but that
would lose on my next turn, so I switch to having PJim give priority to
surviving longer over having more life when he reduces me to 1 life.
As a result, PJim keeps both of his creatures back on his T8.
On my T9, Stormscape Apprentice taps Baloth before I declare attackers,
and Corpse attacks alone, reducing PJim to 2 life.
Now, PJim taps Sand-Mage and attacks, reducing me to 1 life, since
no matter what PJim does I win on my T10 by attacking with everything that can.


optimal continuations according to the Python code when I am OTD:

On T5, both creatures attack, and on T6, Thalia attacks alone.
That reduces me to 4 life. ​ On my T6, Stormscape Apprentice taps Baloth or Corpse
before I declare attackers, and Sand-Mage attacks alone. ​ That reduces PJim to 17 life.
On PJim’s T7, Stormscape Apprentice taps whichever of ​ Baloth , Corpse
isn’t already tapped and Thalia attacks, reducing me to 2 life.
The reason PJim can finish me off is, Stormscape Apprentice can tap a creature during my turn
and again during the next turn before combat. ​ I will refer to that as doing the double-tap.
If I had 1 more life, then attacking with Sand-Mage and Baloth but not Corpse
would draw, even if you had 4 more life. ​ Since I don’t, that loses on your next turn.
If you had 4 less life, then Baloth attacking alone would draw, even if I was at just 1 life.
However, even with 3 less life, that doesn’t bring you in range of a double-attack,
so you would still win by tapping Corpse to make me chump-block with Sand-Mage,
and then doing the double-tap so Thalia gets an attack through.
I survive longest by keeping both Baloth and Corpse on defense.
Sand-Mage may or may not attack; suppose it doesn’t tap but PJim takes 3 damage anyway.
That reduces PJim to 14 life. PJim says go.
If I attack, then PJim wins on his next turn wins by doing the
double-tap so Thalia gets an attack through. ​ Thus I don’t attack.
PJim does the double-tap anyway, on Baloth and Corpse, and
attacks with Thalia so that I must chump-block with Sand-Mage.
If I attack, then I lose to an immediate tap and counterattack, and if I don’t,
then PJim does the double-tap to win on PJim’s turn after that anyway.




8. alphastryk: Gemstone Mine, Old-Growth Dryads, Encroach, Swords to Plowshares ​ WL 3-3


When I am OTD, you Encroach upon my Mana Confluence and then win with Dryads.

when I am OTP:
My sequence is ​ Sand-Mage , Corpse , Baloth . ​ ​ ​ That costs me 3 life.
Sand-Mage targets Corpse, so both of those enter on T5.
You get 3 attacks before then, leaving me at 8 life.
As long as you have not yet used StP, Corpse attacks while Sand-Mage stays back to trade.
You can’t block Corpse, so you must use StP or Corpse of Sand-Mage.
Once you use StP on one of them, the other of them will subsequently stay back to trade.
You might get 1 more attack in the turn you cast StP, but that would still leave me with 5 life.
Thus, Baloth enters and wins for me.



9. H: Badlands, Inkmoth Nexus, Valentin, Dean of the Vein, Furor of the Bitten ​ WW 6-0

See my long analysis post on the next page.


10. silkster: Undiscovered Paradise, Swords to Plowshares, Swarm Shambler, Evil Presence ​ LL 0-6

T1 Evil Presence means I don’t get to suspend more than 2 creatures,
and if I suspend more than 1 then my T2 suspend is Corpse.
Sand-Mage followed by Corpse is faster than T1 Corpse,
so I do either that or Baloth followed by Corpse.
You cast T2 Swarm Shambler and will spend 1 turn casting StP on Corpse before Corpse attacks,
so you are 2 turns slower than T1 Chronomaton with continuous pumping, but
Swarm Shambler still becomes 6/6 on my T9, so you stabilize with at least 5 life left.
You pump to 20/20, and then 2 attacks wins for you.



11. Serguei: Remote Farm, Interplanar beacon, Grist, the Hunger Tide, Kaya, Orzhov Usurper ​ WL 3-3


(This is mainly taken from your results post.)

If Grist makes a token while you already had all-but-one of my creatures handled and you have
more life than that creature's power, then you win, since you chump-block until Grist has reached
8 loyalty, let through 1 attack, kill my creature, and win with however many more tokens you need.
(Your tokens are black, so they can block Corpulent Corpse.)

when I am OTD:
You cast T2 Grist. ​ By my T5, Grist will have 7 loyalty and you will have 4 tokens.
You use 2 tokens to handle Sand-Mage, leaving you with 2 other tokens, and what still matters is
when my other creatures enter. ​ If one of them enters on T5, then you chump-block on T5,
kill my other creature on T6, and make another token before my one remaining creature enters.
If Baloth+Corpse enter on T6, then when they do, Grist will have 8 loyalty and you will
have 3 tokens other than the 2 handling Sand-Mage. ​ On my T6, you chump-block
Baloth and you or Girst take 3 damage from Corpse. ​ On your T7, Grist kills Baloth,
leaving Gist with at least 3 loyalty you with at least 1 token that’s not handling Sand-Mage.
That token blocks on my T7, and then you make more for a win.

when I am OTP:
I have not checked everything, but all that I have checked suggests
that me getting all 3 of my creatures on T6 is fast-enough for me



12. maxx!: Scrubland, Cenn’s Tactician, Encroach, Dismember ​ LL 0-6

Reeplcheep ​ beats me both times even without Daze,
so you beat me both times even without Encroach.


13. mattamort: Durkwood Baloth, Dismember, Tropical Island, Daze ​ WW 6-0

This is the same as Asthereal’s deck.


14. GoblinSmashmaster: Swamp, Dark Ritual, Sorin, Imperious Bloodlord, Licia, Sanguine Tribune ​ LL 0-6

You goldfish on T3, which is before I can cast anything.


15. Tylert: Karakas, Student of warfare, Dismember, Noxious revival ​ WW 6-0

Karakas doesn’t help against me.
I suspend Sand-Mage on T2, so that all of my creatures enter on T6. ​ That costs me 3 life.
You can’t block Corpse anyway, and I won’t attack with anything else on T6,
so you deal 1,3,3,3,3 damage to me on turns 2,3,4,5,6 respectively.
That leaves me with 4 life. ​ On my T6 and T7, Corpse attacks alone, reducing you to 14 life.
Student attacking again before T8 would just have it die to Baloth for nothing,
but once Student reaches level 7, it had better try attacking,
since otherwise you just lose to Corpse (Fear).
Baloth blocks, for a trade. ​ You need to Revive Student,
since otherwise you just lose to Sand-Mage plus Corpse.
That reduces you to 12 life. ​ I double-attack, reducing you to 6 life.
My next attack would be for lethal, so revived Student must block before it can attack again.
That is just a chump-block, so I win on my next turn after that block.


16. FTW: Undiscovered Paradise, Duress, Swords to Plowshares, Stromkirk Noble ​ DD 2-2

I don’t lose:
I suspend Sand-Mage on T2, so that all of my creatures enter on T6. ​ That costs me 3 life.
On your turns 2,3,4,5,6 , ​ you deal 1,2,3,4,5 damage respectively, leaving me with 2 life
and Noble as a 6/6 when my creatures enter. ​ Even after StP, I will
still have at least 6 non-Human power, so I don’t lose any more life.

For you to avoid losing, Noble attacks on your turns ​ 2,3,4 , ​ Noble attacks
on your turns ​ 2,3,4 , ​ dealing 6 damage and becoming a 4/4 before my T5.

if Corpse enters on T5 then:
I must have suspended Sand-Mage on T1 and Baloth on T2.
That plus the 6 damage leaves me with at most 12 life when Sand-Mage and Baloth enter.
You StP Corpse before it can attack, and Noble attacks on your turns 5,6,7.
That is all before Baloth enters, I can’t deal more than 9 damage to you
before then, and if I don’t block then I take 15 damage, which would be lethal.
Thus I do block, but Noble still becomes a 6/6.
My only remaining creature is a 5/5, and a single attack by it does not kill you, so I don’t win.

if Baloth enters on T5 then:
I must have suspended Sand-Mage on T1 and Baloth on T2.
That plus the 6 damage leaves me with at most 12 life when Sand-Mage and Baloth enter.
You StP Baloth before it can attack, so I can’t attack for more than 3 that turn.
On your T5, you have at least 17 life and attack with a 4/4. ​ If I block, then my remaining
creature is smaller than yours and I can never get a life advantage, so you win.
Thus I don’t, so I go to at most 8 life and Noble becomes a 5/5.
At this point, me surviving 3 counterattacks requires me giving up both of
my creatures, so the only way I might win is by killing you in just 3 attacks.
You have more than 15 life, so they would have to all be double-attacks.
However, your creature is bigger than my creatures, so if
the first is a double-attack then I can’t double-attack again.

if neither Corpse nor Baloth enter on T5:
The only T5 creature I might get in this case is Sand-Mage, so
on your T5 you have at least 17 life and can attack with a 4/4.
I have at most 14 life, so if Sand-Mage blocks then you StP Baloth whenever
it enters, leaving you with a bigger creature than my 1 remaining creature
and me with no way to get a life advantage, which means I can’t win.
Thus I don’t block on T5, so I go to at most 9 and Noble becomes 5/5.
From here, you still StP Baloth whenever it enters, so the
“me surviving 3 counterattacks … can’t double-attack again.” ​ explanation still applies.

[Phasmoid]

As I described earlier, I pasted my conditional formatting into this round's actual results grid.
There is currently a disagreement between me and alphastryk:

OTP me: ​ Mana Confluence, Shivan Sand-Mage, Durkwood Baloth, Corpulent Corpse
OTD alphastryk: ​ Gemstone Mine, Old-Growth Dryads, Encroach, Swords to Plowshares

alphastryk's comment for this match is

OTP Encroach wins it, and OTD I can still Encroach and then StP whichever threat you suspended when it arrives..

I suppose alphastryk can still Encroach after I've played my land,
but I don't see how that helps alphastryk at all. ​ I believe I win this game.





When was the last time round rule was edited?

It seems different from what I read initially and even if it is my mistake to not read it before submitting, I would have liked to see the mmmchanges.

I’m guessing it was just after


I haven't worded it properly. It's about casting cost, and it's about playing many colors.
So playing an Abzan Charm would be enough to meet the rule.

I'll change it now, in order to stop the confusion.

EDIT: 8. Cornucopia: Non-land cards in each deck must in total contain at least 3 different colored mana symbols in their mana costs. Hybrid mana symbols count for 1.from page 251.

[dte]

1. Asthereal (TO): Tropical Island, Durkwood Baloth, Dismember, Daze
3-3, Encroach.
3

2. Wrath of Pie: Chancellor of the Tangle, Aether Vial, Myr Superion, Deputy of Detention
0-6. Chancellor/Vial was a smart idea!
3

3. Phasmoid: Mana Confluence, Shivan Sand-Mage, Durkwood Baloth, Corpulent Corpse
3-3, Encroach. And baloth.
6

4. RoosterCocoa: Hickory Woodlot, Twilight Mire, Grist, the Hunger Tide, Fulminator Mage
6-0, two lands
12

5. dte: Gemstone mine, lightning bolt, serene remembrance, Encroach
Me. Didn't have much time, and thought Encroach would be good this round for providing a lot of wins OTP. End of the reasonning was that I needed removal to not lose all 1-land MUs OTD, and a threat that was resilient to removal.

6. Reeplcheep: Tundra, Daze, cenn’s tactician, Dismember
3-3, Encroach. I draw remembrance before bolt, so tactician can be 4/4 before I cast bolt for the second time.
15

7. PJim: Tundra, Chancellor of the Tangle, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Stormscape Apprentice
3-3, Encroach, and Thalia.
18

8. alphastryk: Gemstone Mine, Old-Growth Dryads, Encroach, Swords to Plowshares
3-3, Encroaches.
21

9. H: Badlands, Inkmoth Nexus, Valentin, Dean of the Vein, Furor of the Bitten
6-0, either encroach or bolt shine.
27

10. silkster: Undiscovered Paradise, Swords to Plowshares, Swarm Shambler, Evil Presence
4-1. Paradise does not shine against Encroach, but evil presence means that if you just land, go I cannot do anything put pass.
31

11. Serguei: Remote Farm, Interplanar beacon, Grist, the Hunger Tide, Kaya, Orzhov Usurper
6-0, yay, two lands! I hoped for more of those.
37

12. maxx!: Scrubland, Cenn’s Tactician, Encroach, Dismember
3-3, Encroaches.
40

13. mattamort: Durkwood Baloth, Dismember, Tropical Island, Daze
3-3, Encroach.
43

14. GoblinSmashmaster: Swamp, Dark Ritual, Sorin, Imperious Bloodlord, Licia, Sanguine Tribune
0-6. The only other deck I thought about! Otherwise I did not think of any of the other entries.
43

15. Tylert: Karakas, Student of warfare, Dismember, Noxious revival
6-0, recurring bolt.
49

16. FTW: Undiscovered Paradise, Duress, Swords to Plowshares, Stromkirk Noble
4-1, Encroach and duress.
53.


Encroach did what it could, 3-3ing all over. Recurring bolt was not impressive.

[Phasmoid]

OTD dte: ​ Gemstone mine, lightning bolt, serene remembrance, Encroach
vs
OTP
silkster: Undiscovered Paradise, Swords to Plowshares, Swarm Shambler, Evil Presence
4-1. Paradise does not shine against Encroach, but evil presence means that if you just land, go I cannot do anything put pass.


It appears to me that dte loses this game:

Undiscovered Paradise returns during silkster's turns and can be
re-played in the same turn each time, so Encroach won't be able to take it.
Swarm Shamlber is a threat, and if dte Bolts it then silkster gets an Insect, which is another threat.
The turn after that, an Evil Presence infests the Mine, which
stops dte from Serenely Remembering the Bolt, so silkster wins.

[dte]

OTD dte: ​ Gemstone mine, lightning bolt, serene remembrance, Encroach
vs
OTP


It appears to me that dte loses this game:

Undiscovered Paradise returns during silkster's turns and can be
re-played in the same turn each time, so Encroach won't be able to take it.
Swarm Shamlber is a threat, and if dte Bolts it then silkster gets an Insect, which is another threat.
The turn after that, an Evil Presence infests the Mine, which
stops dte from Serenely Remembering the Bolt, so silkster wins.

You're absolutely right, I thought paradise was an EoT effect without really reading the card. Then it sounds like it was the optimal rainbow land, and the one I should have played.

[Asthereal]

FTW seems to have a pile of disagreements.
I have to say they light up nicely now. :smile:

I saw two disagreements elsewhere, but in those, one player was obviously wrong, so I felt free to adjust the scores myself.
(Encroach doesn't work against a land that's in play. Also, keeping Dismember open against a 4/4 that's can't protect itself against instant removal should stall it.)

Lastly, we're missing results from five players. Please post your scores still. We need your results to determine bannings for next round.

[Phasmoid]

FTW seems to have a pile of disagreements.
I have to say they light up nicely now. :smile:
That pile is probably because FTW was the first to post results, so FTW didn't get to look
at others' to check before posing. ​ Incidentally, I'm part of one of those disagreements.
Also, thankyou. ​ :smile:




16. FTW: Undiscovered Paradise, Duress, Swords to Plowshares, Stromkirk Noble

3. Phasmoid: If I understand your deck right, on turn 5 you get both Sand Mage and Baloth (or Corpse) and the other comes in much later on turn 8. Or you can get turn 5 Sand Mage -> turn 6 Baloth/Corpse -> turn 7 Corpse/Baloth.
OTP I play T1 Stromkirk. By turn 5 it's 5/5 and you've taken 1+2+3+4=10 damage from Stromkirk and 2-3 from Mana Confluence [P=7 or 8]. On your turn 5 Sand Mage resolves.

... further explanation cut ...

WD 4-1

T5 Sand-Mage is an option for my deck, and when I submitted I thought
I'd use that option more, but my other option ended up being more useful.
I suspend Sand-Mage on T2, so that all of my creatures come in on T6.
Once that happens, I will still have at least 6 power even after StP,
so I can trade two of my creatures for Stromkirk Noble.
I get ​ DD 2-2 , ​ as explained in my results post.




You're absolutely right, I thought paradise was an EoT effect without really reading the card. Then it sounds like it was the optimal rainbow land, and the one I should have played.

Yes. ​ For example, it would've given me 3 more points (WL -> WW) against PJim.
In fact, in single-land decks, the possibility of instant-speed discard
(such as Fume Spitter + Cry of Contrition)
is the only reason I can think of for preferring any other
3-or-more-color land over Unsidcovered Paradise.

[Phasmoid]

14. GoblinSmashmaster: Swamp, Dark Ritual, Sorin, Imperious Bloodlord, Licia, Sanguine Tribune
That's me playing a better Goblin Lackey

16. FTW: Undiscovered Paradise, Duress, Swords to Plowshares, Stromkirk Noble
Swords 3-3

Swords to Plowshares handles Licia, and Stromkirk Noble attacks 7 times for 28 damage.
How is this not 0-6 for you?

[PJim]

7. PJim: Tundra, Chancellor of the Tangle, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Stormscape Apprentice

vs

1. Asthereal (TO): Tropical Island, Durkwood Baloth, Dismember, Daze // 3-3
2. Wrath of Pie: Chancellor of the Tangle, Aether Vial, Myr Superion, Deputy of Detention // 3-3
3. Phasmoid: Mana Confluence, Shivan Sand-Mage, Durkwood Baloth, Corpulent Corpse // 3-3
4. RoosterCocoa: Hickory Woodlot, Twilight Mire, Grist, the Hunger Tide, Fulminator Mage // 0-6
5. dte: Gemstone mine, lightning bolt, serene remembrance, Encroach // 3-3
6. Reeplcheep: Tundra, Daze, cenn’s tactician, Dismember // 3-3
8. alphastryk: Gemstone Mine, Old-Growth Dryads, Encroach, Swords to Plowshares // 3-3
9. H: Badlands, Inkmoth Nexus, Valentin, Dean of the Vein, Furor of the Bitten // 6-0
10. silkster: Undiscovered Paradise, Swords to Plowshares, Swarm Shambler, Evil Presence // 6-0
11. Serguei: Remote Farm, Interplanar beacon, Grist, the Hunger Tide, Kaya, Orzhov Usurper // 0-6, Disagreement I think because Serguei's missed that Grist bypasses Thalia
12. maxx!: Scrubland, Cenn’s Tactician, Encroach, Dismember // 3-3
13. mattamort: Durkwood Baloth, Dismember, Tropical Island, Daze // 3-3
14. GoblinSmashmaster: Swamp, Dark Ritual, Sorin, Imperious Bloodlord, Licia, Sanguine Tribune // 6-0, Disagreement, I can tap down Licia forever OTD.
15. Tylert: Karakas, Student of warfare, Dismember, Noxious revival // 0-6
16. FTW: Undiscovered Paradise, Duress, Swords to Plowshares, Stromkirk Noble // 6-0

48 points

[Phasmoid]

7. PJim: Tundra, Chancellor of the Tangle, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Stormscape Apprentice

9. H: Badlands, Inkmoth Nexus, Valentin, Dean of the Vein, Furor of the Bitten // 6-0


I get that H wins when H is OTP:

On T1, H casts Dean. ​ H never blocks.
On T2, H plays Inkmoth, uses both lands to
cast Furor on Dean, and then 3/3 Dean attacks.
On each of H’s turns after that, H animates Inkmoth
before combat and attacks with everything that can.
Inkmoth will have flying, so you can’t block it.
Dean has Menace, so you can’t single-block it.
If you double-block Dean, then both of your creatures die,
after which you lose to Inkmoth. ​ Thus, there is no blocking.
If you don’t cast Thalia on T1, then you can’t cast her at all.
In that case you lose because, each of your attacks will be for just 1 and allow Dean to
counterattack for 3, and if you don’t attack then you lose to whichever of ​ Dean , Inkmoth
eventually gets enough attacks through, since you can’t tap both of them in the same turn.
Thus, you cast T1 Thalia and T2 Stormscape Apprentice.
Summoning sickness means Stormscape Apprentice can’t stop H’s T2 or T3 attacks.
After that, Stormscape Apprentice attacking just makes things worse for you
unless it’s for lethal, since your attacks are for at most 3, Dean’s attack
would regain that life, and Inkmoth would give you a poison counter.
Similarly, if Stormscape Apprentice stops Inkmoth from attacking,
then that turn plus the previous turn just makes things worse for you,
since Dean’s attack regains any life H lost and reduces your life total.
Thus, after H’s T3 attacks, unless you double-attacking would be for lethal,
Stormscape Apprentice might-as-well just keep Dean tapped down.
Those two attacks cause you to get 1 poison and H to gain 6 life,
and Thalia’s intervening attack causes H to lose 2 life.
Those result in H having 24 life and you getting only 9 more attacks before you lose to poison.
Thalia only deals 18 damage with those attacks, and since Stormscape Apprentice
only attacks if it’s for lethal, Stormscape Apprentice does not deal more than 1 damage.
That is not enough to kill H, so you lose this game.

[Phasmoid]

7. PJim: Tundra, Chancellor of the Tangle, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Stormscape Apprentice
Thalia 3-3

14. GoblinSmashmaster: Swamp, Dark Ritual, Sorin, Imperious Bloodlord, Licia, Sanguine Tribune
That's me playing a better Goblin Lackey



7. PJim: Tundra, Chancellor of the Tangle, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Stormscape Apprentice

14. GoblinSmashmaster: Swamp, Dark Ritual, Sorin, Imperious Bloodlord, Licia, Sanguine Tribune // 6-0, Disagreement, I can tap down Licia forever OTD.



I get that ​ OTP GoblinSmashmaster vs PJim OTD ​ is a draw.


GoblinSmashmaster can’t win:
On GSm’s T1, GSm can make Licia on GSm’s T1 and pump her to 7/7. ​ On T1, PJim casts Stormscape Apprentice.
On GSM’s T2, Sorin and Licia can both pump Licia and Licia can attack for 11.
After that, Stormscape Apprentice can tap Licia down forever to stop her from attacking.
Sorin can sacrifice Licia to deal 3 more damage to PJim, but with Licia tapped down forever,
there’s no way for GSm to cause PJim to lose more life than the 11+3, so GSm can’t win.

PJim can't win:
GSm makes Licia on GSm’s T1 and pump her to 7/7, at the cost of 5 life.
If PJim does not cast Thalia on T1, then PJim won’t be able to cast her at all, so each of PJim’s attacks
would be for 1 and allow a counterattack for 7, which is not enough to win even with the 5-life head start.
Thus, PJim casts T1 Thalia. ​ On GSm’s T2, Licia pumps herself to 10/10 at the cost of another 5 life, and then attacks.
If Thalia blocks, then she dies, and attacking for 1 vs counterattacks for 7 is not enough even with a 10-life head start.
Thus Thalia does not block, so PJim goes to 10 life and lifelink brings GSm back to 20 life.
Thalia may or may not attack; suppose she doesn’t tap but GSm takes 2 damage anyway. ​ That brings GSm to 18 life.
On GSm’s T3, Stormscape Apprentice is summoning-sick, so Licia attacks and PJim must block.
If Stormscape Apprentice blocks, then PJim can no longer stop Licia from attacking
and loses to 2 more attacks by her. ​ Thus Thalia blocks, so she dies.
At this point, PJim has a life disadvantage, so PJim’s Stormscape Apprentice can’t even beat a 1/1.

[alphastryk]

As I described earlier, I pasted my conditional formatting into this round's actual results grid.
There is currently a disagreement between me and alphastryk:

OTP me: ​ Mana Confluence, Shivan Sand-Mage, Durkwood Baloth, Corpulent Corpse
OTD alphastryk: ​ Gemstone Mine, Old-Growth Dryads, Encroach, Swords to Plowshares

alphastryk's comment for this match is
.

I suppose alphastryk can still Encroach after I've played my land,
but I don't see how that helps alphastryk at all. ​ I believe I win this game.


Yeah I don't know why I thought Encroach mattered OTD - clearly WL

[FTW]

Sorry, I've been on holidays and haven't kept up with the other results posts.


I am not so sure grist is a creature in my hand ;) and even if not you will not be able to manage kaya

I noticed Grist was also a Planeswalker in hand (creature in addition, not instead) and thought Duress would still hit it, but of course it's not a "noncreature" anymore. That affects 2 matches.

OTP I play T1 Stromkirk, T2 Duress Kaya and grow Stormkirk to 2/2.
You play T2 Grist and +1 for a token [4 counters].
Dismember can buy me an attack and stall your removal, but you can eventually +1 every turn to chump and then get high enough to keep an Insect and destroy Stromkirk.
LL 0-6


I can alternatively wait till T2 to suspend Sand Mage, so that I get all 3 of my creatures on T6.
I believe that is enough for DD 2-2 against you.

Ah yes, I missed that line. I assumed it was optimal to sequence Sand Mage first so it removes counters from something else, but you have a viable line playing Sand Mage 2nd. If you get all 3 creatures on T6 then I can't beat you.

OTP I'll have a 6/6 Stromkirk with you taking 1+2+3+4+5=15 combat damage + 3 mana confluence damage [P=2 life]. Then you get all 3 creatures. I can Dismember the 5/5 but my 6/6 can't get through the 3/3+3/2.
OTD it'll be 5/5 vs 3/3+3/2, also a draw.
DD 2-2


I was about to submit Aether Vial.dec, but I thought T4 Deputy would be too slow against all the T1-T2 combo and prison decks I saw, so I thought I had to play either Daze or Duress to stop them. Daze turned out to be much better than Duress due to Grist being a creature, and Swarm Shambler was a much better colored Chrono than Stromkirk Noble! The combo decks I feared didn't appear. I also thought more people would use the Spell Lands to cheat colored mana symbols in land slots, and Duress looked good against that since they count as nonlands in hand.

[FTW]

7. PJim: Tundra, Chancellor of the Tangle, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Stormscape Apprentice
14. GoblinSmashmaster: Swamp, Dark Ritual, Sorin, Imperious Bloodlord, Licia, Sanguine Tribune // 6-0, Disagreement, I can tap down Licia forever OTD.


I agree with Phasmoid. WD 4-1 here.

OTD you can tap down Licia but how do you actually win the game?

Licia kills T3.
T1 7/7 Licia (-5 life)
T2 11/11 Licia attacks (+1 Sorin, -5 life)
T3 12/12-15/15 Licia attacks again

If you cast Thalia, you can only start tapping on your turn 3 (opponent's turn 4). Gobbo probably saw that and thought it was a win.
If you skip Thalia you can start tapping on your turn 2 (opponent's turn 3), but then have no win condition. Draw.


7. PJim: Tundra, Chancellor of the Tangle, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Stormscape Apprentice
9. H: Badlands, Inkmoth Nexus, Valentin, Dean of the Vein, Furor of the Bitten // 6-0

Same thing here. Just having a tapper in the decklist isn't enough to automatically beat a big attacker. You need the tempo to do it and also attack back.

Inkmoth and Dean are both dangerous clocks (relative to your 2/1 and 1/1). You can tap down Dean but then Inkmoth gets in damage and races. Agree with Phasmoid.

[Asthereal]

Still missing four results, and many of us are slow to respond.
Do we need a break for the summer holidays?
We could take a month. See eachother second half of August.
It was suggested before, but I'm starting to feel we might need it.

Let me know how you feel about this idea.

[Phasmoid]

H: ​ Badlands, Inkmoth Nexus, Valentin, Dean of the Vein, Furor of the Bitten
vs
me: Mana Confluence, Shivan Sand-Mage, Durkwood Baloth, Corpulent Corpse

I conclude that I win both games in this match.





My sequence is ​ Sand-Mage , Baloth , Corpse . ​ ​ ​ That costs me 3 life.
Sand-Mage targets Baloth, so both of those enter on T5.
Dean gets at most 4 attacks before my T5, so on my T5,
I will have at least 5 life and you will have at most 32 life.




if Dean is Furious on my T5:

You must have tapped Badlands for Furor on one of
T2,T3,T4,T5 , ​ so Inkmoth missed at least 1 attack.
As a result, Inkmoth can’t kill me before T12.
I don’t attack on T5. ​ Dean must attack, and I double-block.
That results in Dean trading for Sand-Mage, so you gain 3 life and can create a Pest.
You go to at most 35 life. ​ Suppose you don’t create a Pest.
If Inkmoth doesn’t block, then Baloth + T8 Corpse kill you on T11.
That is before T12, so Inkmoth would block. ​ That would be a chump block, so I would still win.
Thus you do create a Pest. ​ Creating the Pest requires paying :2:
between my T5 and my T6, so Inkmoth can’t attack on that turn of yours.
That is another missed attack by Inkmoth, so it can’t kill me before T13.
On my turns 6 and 7, Baloth attacks. ​ ​ ​ On my turns 8 and 9, Baloth and Corpse attack.
Those only let the Pest deal 4 damage with counterattacks, so I reach my T10 with at least 1 life.
If Inkmoth blocked, then it was a chump and your 1/1 loses to my two bigger creatures.
If Pest did not block, then you took 26 damage, leaving you with at most 9 life.
If Pest did block, then you take 5 less damage and gained 1 life, leaving you with at most 15 life.
In the latter case, I attack with everything to win no later than T12.
Thus, Pest does not block before my T10, so you have at most 9 life.
On my T10, Baloth attacks while Corpse stays back for defense.
If Inkmoth blocks, then your 1/1 loses to my two bigger creatures.
If Pest blocks, then you go to at most 10 life and I attack with everything on T11 and T12,
forcing Inkmoth to block. ​ That would be a chump block, so I would still win.
Thus you don’t block, so you go to at most 4 life.
On my T11, again Baloth attacks while Corpse stays back for defense.
This time you must block. ​ If Inkmoth blocks, then your 1/1 loses to my two bigger creatures.
Thus Pest blocks, leaving you with at most 5 life and Inkmoth as your only threat.
Your next turn is at most T12, so 1 attack from it doesn’t kill me.
On the other hand, 1 unblocked attack from Baloth kills you, so I win no later than T13 in this case.



if Dean is not Furious on my T5:


Making Inkmoth Furious doesn’t help, since you have no other mana to animate
and attack in the same turn, and the aura would fall off in your end step.
When Sand-Mage and Baloth enter, I have at least 13 life and you have at most 24 life.
As long as you have not made Dean Furious, I keep attacking with everything that can.
If you don’t block, then this deals ​ 8+8+8+11 = 35 ​ damage to you on my turns 5,6,7,8
respectively, whereas non-Furious Dean deals at most 3 damage in the meantime,
so you must block or make Dean Furious no later than my T8.

If you block with both without having made Dean Furious, other than both on Sand-Mage,
then you end up with no creatures while I still have threats, which is a win for me.
If you double-block Sand-Mage without having made Dean Furious, then that costs you
Inkmoth and Dean, while killing Sand-Mage and maybe giving you a Pest.
(If I remember the mana rules correctly, you can’t actually
get the Pest, but I’m not sure so I’ll suppose you can.)
Once that happens, Baloth stays back if able until Corpse enters, if Corpse hasn’t already entered.
Your Pest deals at most 3 damage to me in the meantime, either by Furiously attacking before
Baloth untaps, or via up to 3 attacks with all-but-the-first enabled by making Baloth Furious.
In either case, that leaves me with with at least 7 life and Corpse
on the battlefield, and two at-least-3-power creatures beat a at-most-3/3,
even if you can make one of my creatures attack each combat if able.

If Inkmoth blocks alone without you having made Dean Furious, then that puts a -1/-1 counter on
one of my creatures but is otherwise a chump block, and means you can’t ever pay for a Pest.
My creatures would still have power at least ​ 2,4,2 , ​ so any double-block by me would kill Dean.
With Inkmoth gone, I stay on defense if able until Corpse enters, if Corpse hasn’t already entered.
Even with a -1/-1 counter, making one of my creatures Furious would also make that
creature big-enough to kill Dean, so you can’t make me suicide any of my creatures.
Dean deals at most 3 more damage to me, either by Furiously attacking before my creatures untap,
or via up to 3 attacks with all-but-the-first enabled by making one of my creatures Furious.
That leaves me with at least 7 life and all three of my creatures on the battlefield.
Once I get that, Baloth attacks alone unless one of my creatures
is Furious, in which case the Furious creature attacks alone.
Dean attacking results in it dying to a double-block, so Dean can’t deal damage to me
and can’t gain you more than 3 life, and Dean blocking results in it dying to my attacker,
so I win if Inkmoth blocks alone without you having made Dean Furious.
If non-Furious Dean blocks alone, then that is a chump block and means you can’t ever get a Pest.
After that, my creatures all keep attacking. ​ Dean got at most 3 attacks and 1 block since my T5 started,
but ​ 35-(24+4) = 7 > max(3,5,3) , ​ so Inkmoth will also need to block to avoid you losing by my T8.
That leaves you with no creatures while I sill have threats, which is a win for me.

Thus you must make Dean Furious before you block and no later than my T8.
Since Furor of the Bitten doesn’t have Flash, that means before my T8.
The turn after you do, if Corpse entered then Baloth attacks alone else I don’t attack.
Either Dean chump-blocks Baloth that turn or on your next turn, Dean attacks,
I double-block, and Dean trades with one of my 3-power creatures.
In each case, I resume attacking with everything that can.
You get 3 attacks between my T5 and my T8, so from the start of my T5
until Dean’s death, he deals at most 8 damage, at most 5 of which is to me.
That leaves me with at least 8 life and you with life
at most 32 minus however much damage I dealt to you.
If Dean chump-blocked Baloth, then that was on T8 (otherwise Baloth would’ve stayed back)
and I dealt ​ 8+8+8 = 24 ​ damage to you on my previous 3 turns, leaving you with 8 life.
You gain at most 1 more life, and can’t stop more than 10 of the ​ (3+5+3)+(3+5+3) = 22
damage that would result from 2 unblocked attacks by each of my 3 creatures, so
you would lose on T10, whereas the earliest Inkmoth could possibly kill me is T11.
Thus Dean does not chump Baloth, so it trades for one of my 3-power creatures.
Since this is still part of the ​ “Dean is not Furious on my T5”
case, you didn’t trade that turn, so you took 8 damage that turn.
The minimal amount of damage you could’ve taken is from making Dean Furious the next turn,
so that I hold back Baloth rather than another 3-power creature and you don’t
take extra damage from the 3-power creature that Dean is going to trade for.

If you do that, then in the absence of you blocking,
you would take 0,5,8 damage in my turns 6,7,8 respectively.
That would leave you with ​ 32-(8+5+8) = 11 ​ life as my T8 ends.
In particular, if you didn’t and don’t block, then you lose to my T10 attacks,
whereas the earliest Inkmoth could possibly kill me is T11.
If you didn’t make a Pest, then your only block is a chump with Inkmoth, which just slows down your loss.
Thus you did make a Pest. ​​ That requires tapping
Inkmoth for mana after my T5, so it misses an attack.
As a result, Inkmoth can’t kill me before T12.
Since Dean was not Furious on my T5, the earliest I could’ve held back
was T6, so the earliest you could’ve gotten the Pest was between my T6
and my T7, and before T12 there are only 5 attacks that you might block.
As a result, the most damage you can avoid with a single-block is Inkmoth blocking
Baloth on T7 to also reduce by 1 the amount of damage Baloth deals on turns 8,9,10,11.
That avoids 9 damage, but otherwise would’ve had only 11 life as my T8 ends,
and I would deal 24 damage to you in total during my turns 9,10,11.
As mentioned, Inkmoth can’t kill me before T12. ​ The earliest you can get
the Pest is T6, so that would take even longer to deal 8 damage to me.
Thus you block with both of you creatures, but that leaves you
with no creatures and me with at least a 4/4 Baloth, so I still win.

[dte]

Still missing four results, and many of us are slow to respond.
Do we need a break for the summer holidays?
We could take a month. See eachother second half of August.
It was suggested before, but I'm starting to feel we might need it.

Let me know how you feel about this idea.

I prefer to keep going, but without strong opinion.

[Tylert]

Still missing four results, and many of us are slow to respond.
Do we need a break for the summer holidays?
We could take a month. See eachother second half of August.
It was suggested before, but I'm starting to feel we might need it.

Let me know how you feel about this idea.

Sorry, i'm in hollidays with a few times to access internet...
I'd be okay for a break.

[alphastryk]

If it makes sense, I'm certainly ok taking a break as long as we set a clear date for when we restart so that I can remember.

[Asthereal]

Yesterday we lost access to the site, so I couldn't start the next round anyway, even if I wanted.
So for the really short term: I won't start the next round this week.
I'll wait a bit for people to respond to my question whether they need a summer break, and announce what we'll do in the next couple of days, hopefully.

So if you haven't yet, please answer the question below:


Still missing four results, and many of us are slow to respond.
Do we need a break for the summer holidays?
We could take a month. See eachother second half of August.
It was suggested before, but I'm starting to feel we might need it.

Let me know how you feel about this idea.

[alphastryk]

I thought it was just me, given the message about IP address being banned, but it sounds like the whole site was down.

[Wrath of Pie]

I thought it was just me, given the message about IP address being banned, but it sounds like the whole site was down.
Apparently it was maintenance issues. (I actually sent a message through the convenient form which was the only thing that could be accessed.)

[Reeplcheep]

Yah I am getting married and taking a honeymoon over the next month; I can barely submit decent decks as-is.

I would appreciate a break.

[alphastryk]

Yah I am getting married and taking a honeymoon over the next month; I can barely submit decent decks as-is.

I would appreciate a break.

Congrats! Good reasons to be less focused on our game

[maxx!]

Still missing four results, and many of us are slow to respond.
Do we need a break for the summer holidays?
We could take a month. See eachother second half of August.
It was suggested before, but I'm starting to feel we might need it.

Let me know how you feel about this idea.

I'd be fine to keep going, but it sounds like some of us could use a break, so that's probably for the best.

Congrats Reep!

(And glad I'm not actually IP banned)

[dte]

Yah I am getting married and taking a honeymoon over the next month; I can barely submit decent decks as-is.

I would appreciate a break.

Big congratulations :)

[silkster]

If it makes sense, I'm certainly ok taking a break as long as we set a clear date for when we restart so that I can remember.

I think I'm of the same opinion as Alphastryk. Preference is not to break, but I certainly don't mind it. And having a clear restart date would be nice. I thought we were restarting earlier in January and I checked for a few weeks and found nothing and then after all that I missed the start!

[Phasmoid]

I am slightly in favor of a break.

Also, I'm addressing a disagreement in the results.




Asthereal (TO): Tropical Island, Durkwood Baloth, Dismember, Daze
and
mattamort: Durkwood Baloth, Dismember, Tropical Island, Daze

vs

silkster: Undiscovered Paradise, Swords to Plowshares, Swarm Shambler, Evil Presence



10. silkster: Undiscovered Paradise, Swords to Plowshares, Swarm Shambler, Evil Presence
-> WW
I kill Shambler the turn it is played and counter STP on baloth 5/5 > 1/1

I believe I shall score similarly to this man of culture.
I didn't see an analysis post from silkster, but silkster's
row in the spreadsheet has 6 for both of these entries.



I believe silkster gets WW in these:

Evil Presence handles Daze, since either Daze gets cast to counter
Evil Presence or Daze will subsequently never be able to be cast.
StP handles Baloth, since silkster has time for
Evil Presence ​ , ​ Swarm Shambler ​ , ​ untap
before Durkwood Baloth can enter the battlefield.
If Dismember kills Swarm Shambler, then silkster gets a 1/1 Insect,
so silkster will still have a threat to win with.

[FTW]

I'm OK either way. It sounds like some players could use a break though.

If we proceed, I'll keep playing but will have less time and energy to check results for a few weeks.

[H]

Yeah, I am good with a break. But, really, I think I am going to "drop" from this season. I just have not had the time to think about my entries and do my analyses.

Hopefully by next season I will have a bit more time, but I think we have enough players to sustain us for now without me slowing this down.

[Asthereal]

I wanted to make a decision in the past few days, but I was gone for the weekend, and the days before were a bit of a mess.
In my area there were floodings, which was weird and caused all sorts of problems. Thankfully my place was safe, but villages around Maastricht weren't so lucky.
(There were quite a number of fatalities in Germany and Belgium, where the valleys are steaper than in my region.)

Anyway. I decided to go for the break. There's too many people unable to post regularly, which delays the rounds (bannathon, so we need the results).
Let's put the deadline for next round to Wednesday the 25th of AUGUST.



About current round:
I see silk tried to post scores but couldn't enter the website at that moment. This has been resolved, but his disagreements haven't.
Two of them are with mattamort and me. I shamelessly stole matta's results without checking, and see matta probably missed the fact that Evil Presence makes us unable to cast Daze.
So I fear we lose that matchup 6-0 instead of winning it by said score, just like Phasmoid posted.
The others are with dte and FTW. I think dte missed how bad Encroach is OTD against Undiscovered Paradise (or that Bolting the Shambler nets silk a 1/1 token). Looks like 3-3 to me.
I think FTWs analysis is solid. I don't see how he wins a game, so I'm inclined to chalk up a 2-2 there.

Also I did napkin math to figure out scores between H, Reep and Tylert, who haven't been able to post results yet.
Reep-H looks like 6-0 (Daze the Valentin, Dismember the Nexus and the creature wins it).
Reep-Tylert looks like a typical trading of resources into 2-2.
H-Tylert looks like 0-6, as Tylert can Dismember two guys and H's aura doesn't stop that.

If there scores are correct, and everybody who posted scores have posted them correctly, we would end up with:
1. Wrath of Pie: 66 - 4,4
2. silkster: 61 - 4,1
3. RoosterCocoa: 54 - 3,6
4. alphastryk: 53 - 3,5
5. dte: 52 - 3,5
6. maxx!: 50 - 3,3
7. PJim: 46 - 3,1
8. Serguei: 44 - 2,9
9. Asthereal (TO): 38 - 2,5
9. Phasmoid: 38 - 2,5
9. Reeplcheep: 38 - 2,5
9. mattamort: 38 - 2,5
13. GoblinSmashmaster: 37 - 2,5
14. Tylert: 34 - 2,3
15. FTW: 32 - 2,1
16. H: 4 - 0,3

And these bannings:
Aether Vial
Chancellor of the Tangle
Deputy of Detention
Evil Presence
Fulminator Mage
Grist, the Hunger Tide
Hickory Woodlot
Myr Superion
Swarm Shambler
Swords to Plowshares
Twilight Mire
Undiscovered Paradise

EDIT: and these are the standings in the season after round 8:
1. Tylert: 29,6
2. Serguei: 28,9
3. dte: 28,4
4. silkster: 27,7
5. mattamort: 27
6. FTW: 26,9
7. GoblinSmashmaster: 25,1
8. PJim: 25
9. maxx!: 23,7
10. alphastryk: 23,4
11. RoosterCocoa: 19,5
12. Wrath of Pie: 19,3
13. Reeplcheep: 18,7
14. Asthereal (TO): 14,3
15. Phasmoid: 13,8
16. jhhdk: 12
17. H: 10
18. shiftyhomunculus: 3,1

[jhhdk]

Back from vacation.
I think it's probably for the best i didn't participate in the last round.
I completely misunderstood the round rule which also made it kind of difficult to construct a deck (didn't read thread for last 3 weeks either).
I read "Non-land cards in deck must contain at least 3 different mana symbols" as
"Each non-land card in decks must contain at least 3 different mana symbols."
I see wording has been updated since, but I am pretty sure that whatever deck I would've submitted abiding by my initial interpretation of rules would've given m the same score for round as I got by being away :smile:.

[Asthereal]

No replies anymore on my thoughts on the undecided matches, so I'm locking in the bannings.
If scores change, I'll of course make sure the correct ones are used for the season standings, but the bannings are now final, even if they would change because of changes in scores.
So this allows me to create my deck, open the round and then take a nice big holiday. Let's gooo! :cool:


ROUND 9 OF SEASON 10: DEVIANT LEGACY BANNATHON has started.

This round we play Go Big Or Go Home: All non-land cards in your deck must have mana value 3 or greater.

I have PM'ed myself my deck for round 9, so you can start sending me your decks.

DEADLINE: Wednesday the 25th of August at 11:00AM Central European Time.
(That's my time zone. Pacific Time it'll probably be something like Tuesday night a bit past midnight, so keep that in mind.)

PLEASE NOTE:
The way you send your deck to me matters. Please send it in the way described below, so it doesn't cost me an hour of editing before I can post all the decks.
Please send your deck as follows: Mountain, Quicksand, Desert, Suq'Ata Lancer.
So with card tags around each card, and not above eachother, and with your Username and 4CB S10R09 in the topic.
Don't forget to keep an eye on the banned list. You'll find it in the second post (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1064264&viewfull=1#post1064264) of the thread, or in our Google Spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1M2zwN9zxSe7IwiJmZH8eGXeNpEjqspR_SWT5d3Hqqac/edit?usp=sharing).

After the deadline has passed, I will post all decks on the forum here, and you can start puzzling out your scores.
If you have any questions, please read the first two posts of this thread first. If you can't find the answer there, drop a message here. We'll answer a.s.a.p.

Happy deck building! :smile:

[PJim]

Are sets legal if the round starts after their release, or if decks are due after their release? AFR wouldn't be legal if the former, though we might make an exception given the big break.

Separately, are Jumpstart: HH cards going to be legal? Obviously we can handle the elements that don't work for paper in this format. Persistent effects and Conjuring could be very impactful if there are good enough cards. Some of the random cards have ridiculous branching possibilities, but given our randomness rule I think all the ones shown thus far would always be useless.

[Wrath of Pie]

Historic is interesting because it's becoming effectively a self-contained format in which it has cards that won't be legal elsewhere (even in Vintage!), and given that their legality is obvious as in not legal unless we specifically play Historic.

[Asthereal]

Are sets legal if the round starts after their release, or if decks are due after their release? AFR wouldn't be legal if the former, though we might make an exception given the big break.

Separately, are Jumpstart: HH cards going to be legal? Obviously we can handle the elements that don't work for paper in this format. Persistent effects and Conjuring could be very impactful if there are good enough cards. Some of the random cards have ridiculous branching possibilities, but given our randomness rule I think all the ones shown thus far would always be useless.
About AFR: I already received several decks, and I had to create my own before the set came out.
So it seems wrong to allow it for this ongoing round. Adventures in the Forgotten Realms will become legal next round.


(EDITED) About Jumpstart Historic Horizons: I had overlooked this launch somehow, but let's have a look. But now properly. Jumpstart: Historic Horizons is the second Jumpstart set that comes out.
It's an Arena only release, so no paper, no Legacy/Vintage/Modern/... legality. Yet it's a normal release with normal cards, so I think we can have the new cards be legal in our current season until they get banned.
And as Jumpstart Historic Horizons launches on August 12th, it too will be legal from next round onwards. But I'll have to look at the mechanics. I haven't checked it at all yet.

[Asthereal]

But I'll have to look at the mechanics. I haven't checked it at all yet.
Okay, after a quick look, my interpretation is this:
-Perpetually: no problem. It functions as an aura but without being an aura. "Target creature perpetually gets +3/+3."
-Conjure: this is a bit weird. Sarkhan, Wanderer to Shiv has "Conjure a Shivan Dragon card into your hand." So that looks like "create a token card named Shivan Dragon and put it into your hand." Which you can then cast, or discard and reanimate. It might die and get put into your graveyard where you can interact with it again, and so on. If my interpretation is correct, this is very strong and violates the 4CB idea somewhat. But a card that costs 4 mana should be strong, and we can easily handle the 5th card, play-wise. So perhaps also not a problem? We can always decide to ban the ones that are dominating our game.

[PJim]

About AFR: I already received several decks, and I had to create my own before the set came out.
So it seems wrong to allow it for this ongoing round. Adventures in the Forgotten Realms will become legal next round.


About Jumpstart: I had overlooked this launch somehow, but let's have a look.
This is in the MTG Wiki: "The set contains almost 500 reprints but also introduced 37 new cards that were designed to help fill out some of the themes. These are not Standard-, Pioneer-, or Modern-legal cards, but they are legal in Eternal formats (Legacy, Vintage, Pauper and Commander)."
So the new cards will be legal in our current season until they get banned. And as Jumpstart launches on August 12th, it too will be legal from next round onwards. But I'll have to look at the mechanics. I haven't checked it at all yet.

(PS. Looks like Jumpstart has been delayed several times already. MTG Wiki says it launches on July 17th, but Wizards themselves announced August 12th. If this changes, so does the legality of our new 37 cards. We'll have to keep an eye on this.)

There's some confusion here. The original Jumpstart launched on July 17th last year, and has the legality you posted, and I've been assuming (presumably correctly) that it's been legal the entire time I've been here. Jumpstart: Historic Horizons is the new set, and doesn't get a physical release, it's an Arena only product. It's legal for Historic, which is a sanctioned format, but not for Legacy and the rest. The gimmick is the card effects that are easily handled in a digital game, but wouldn't work well with physical cards, so it's unlikely they'd ever be legal in paper formats.

I don't personally see a reason to exclude them, as they are real cards for a sanctioned format, and not Un- or otherwise weird cards, and they should work fine in 4CB. But the fact they're not legal in paper formats does make them something different to everything else that's legal.

[Asthereal]

There's some confusion here. The original Jumpstart launched on July 17th last year, and has the legality you posted, and I've been assuming (presumably correctly) that it's been legal the entire time I've been here. Jumpstart: Historic Horizons is the new set, and doesn't get a physical release, it's an Arena only product. It's legal for Historic, which is a sanctioned format, but not for Legacy and the rest. The gimmick is the card effects that are easily handled in a digital game, but wouldn't work well with physical cards, so it's unlikely they'd ever be legal in paper formats.

I don't personally see a reason to exclude them, as they are real cards for a sanctioned format, and not Un- or otherwise weird cards, and they should work fine in 4CB. But the fact they're not legal in paper formats does make them something different to everything else that's legal.
Bad research by me from my holiday location leads to bad posts. :tongue:
I indeed confused the two sets. I read July 17th as release date, then read August 12th and the fact that it was pushed back and just assumed I was looking at the same release.

But you're right: the new Jumpstart (Jumpstart: Historic Horizons) is an Arena only release. But I think we can keep it anyway.
As you said, it's not Unglued or equivalent. It's normal cards with normal ideas, and I don't see a reason to exclude it for now.

(Edited original post to remove nonsense.)

[Wrath of Pie]

It's legal for Historic, which is a sanctioned format, but not for Legacy and the rest.
Not legal for Legacy, thus not legal for this season. Seems simple enough.

[Asthereal]

Not legal for Legacy, thus not legal for this season. Seems simple enough.
Legacy is just the name for the paper format. Jumpstart: Historic Horizons isn't a paper launch, but 4CB also isn't a paper format.
I don't see a problem with allowing it from next round onwards.

[Wrath of Pie]

Legacy is just the name for the paper format. Jumpstart: Historic Horizons isn't a paper launch, but 4CB also isn't a paper format.
I don't see a problem with allowing it from next round onwards.
It sets a bad precedent. We should finish the season as-is and figure out what we want to do with the Historic-exclusive cards once the season is over.

(Also, Legacy isn't really a paper format anymore, but that's another argument entirely.)

[Asthereal]

It sets a bad precedent. We should finish the season as-is and figure out what we want to do with the Historic-exclusive cards once the season is over.

(Also, Legacy isn't really a paper format anymore, but that's another argument entirely.)
I don't see how it's a bad precedent. It's a new set, albeit an Arena only one. The cards see play in a competitive format, albeit an online one.
Lately I've been playing mostly Arena (draft > constructed, imo), and I think I'm not the only one.
Paper magic just wasn't an option for over a year because of the pandemic, which caused Arena to grow enormeously, so it's no wonder it gets exclusive releases now.
But I guess my playing and enjoying Arena has made me less interested in paper, where that might have been different 5 years ago when I still played paper only.

We could keep the historic only sets out of 4CB until the end of the season if enough people feel like that's the best thing to do.

Everybody: sound off below what you think: hit the breaks on Jumpstart: Historic Horizons? Or just have it be legal from next round onwards?

[Tylert]

I don't see how it's a bad precedent. It's a new set, albeit an Arena only one. The cards see play in a competitive format, albeit an online one.
Lately I've been playing mostly Arena (draft > constructed, imo), and I think I'm not the only one.
Paper magic just wasn't an option for over a year because of the pandemic, which caused Arena to grow enormeously, so it's no wonder it gets exclusive releases now.
But I guess my playing and enjoying Arena has made me less interested in paper, where that might have been different 5 years ago when I still played paper only.

We could keep the historic only sets out of 4CB until the end of the season if enough people feel like that's the best thing to do.

Everybody: sound off below what you think: hit the breaks on Jumpstart: Historic Horizons? Or just have it be legal from next round onwards?

Don't care. can be legal next round.

[RoosterCocoa]

I don't see how it's a bad precedent. It's a new set, albeit an Arena only one. The cards see play in a competitive format, albeit an online one.
Lately I've been playing mostly Arena (draft > constructed, imo), and I think I'm not the only one.
Paper magic just wasn't an option for over a year because of the pandemic, which caused Arena to grow enormeously, so it's no wonder it gets exclusive releases now.
But I guess my playing and enjoying Arena has made me less interested in paper, where that might have been different 5 years ago when I still played paper only.

We could keep the historic only sets out of 4CB until the end of the season if enough people feel like that's the best thing to do.

Everybody: sound off below what you think: hit the breaks on Jumpstart: Historic Horizons? Or just have it be legal from next round onwards?

I have no opinion either way.

[dte]

I vote not legal.

[alphastryk]

I vote not legal.

Same here, I feel very strongly that these are not real magic cards and they don't fit into our game regardless of format legality, timing etc.

[Wrath of Pie]

I would prefer to defer judgment until Wizards makes a decision regarding their status on Magic Online if and when they are released there, but I don't see that happening, so I am obviously against.

[BirdsOfParadise]

Unless I am missing something, any card that says “conjure a random creature card” is virtually impossible to adjudicate in 4CB, since the opponent decides the outcome of the random effect and there are thousands of cards from which to choose. How will anyone be sure the opponent is choosing the random outcome most favorable to them? Of course, a card that says “conjure a random creature card” would be unplayable in 4CB for power-level reasons, but even though nobody would *want* to use it, it still bothers me that it would essentially break the game if someone did.

Edit: Pool of Vigorous Growth is the one I’m thinking of.

[Wrath of Pie]

Unless I am missing something, any card that says “conjure a random creature card” is virtually impossible to adjudicate in 4CB, since the opponent decides the outcome of the random effect and there are thousands of cards from which to choose. How will anyone be sure the opponent is choosing the random outcome most favorable to them? Of course, a card that says “conjure a random creature card” would be unplayable in 4CB for power-level reasons, but even though nobody would *want* to use it, it still bothers me that it would essentially break the game if someone did.

Edit: Pool of Vigorous Growth is the one I’m thinking of.

You would get the worst possible creature token, which typically is going to be something that ends up being a 0/0. (Phage is a notable exception.)

[Asthereal]

You would get the worst possible creature token, which typically is going to be something that ends up being a 0/0. (Phage is a notable exception.)
You don't get a token. You get a card. BoP has a point. This is crazy.
But it's also very funny. So here, have an Autochthon Wurm. Have fun with it.

By the way, score right now is 3x don't care, 3x not legal during current season.

[Wrath of Pie]

You don't get a token. You get a card. BoP has a point. This is crazy.
But it's also very funny. So here, have an Autochthon Wurm. Have fun with it.

By the way, score right now is 3x don't care, 3x not legal during current season.
Not nearly terrible enough, I'm sorry to say you're not eligible to be a Chaos Lord.

[Asthereal]

Not nearly terrible enough, I'm sorry to say you're not eligible to be a Chaos Lord.
A friend of mine who doesn't play magic suggested Leviathan. I was impressed.

[Wrath of Pie]

A friend of mine who doesn't play magic suggested Leviathan. I was impressed.
The trick is that traditional Backbuild has been answering the question of conditionally bad creature cards for years. (Chaos Lord has the Backbuild issue of requiring Lotus Bloom mana to be castable, which itself is a liability against Flailing Soldier, but you couldn't know that.)

[Phasmoid]

I have not checked anything related to legality announcements for those cards, but
assuming Wizards has not made a decision as described below, I’m for at-least-roughly ​ Wrath of Pie ’s ​ idea.


I would prefer to defer judgment until Wizards makes a decision regarding their status on Magic Online if and when they are released there, but I don't see that happening, so I am obviously against.

Specifically: ​ Not legal for now, to be reconsidered if Wizards allows them in MtGO rather than just Arena

[Phasmoid]

Unless I'm confused, there are now slightly less than 48 hours left before the deadline.

[Asthereal]

Unless I'm confused, there are now slightly less than 48 hours left before the deadline.


You are not. Deadline in less than 48 hours. Don't forget to send your decks!



ROUND 9 OF SEASON 10: DEVIANT LEGACY BANNATHON has started.

This round we play Go Big Or Go Home: All non-land cards in your deck must have mana value 3 or greater.

I have PM'ed myself my deck for round 9, so you can start sending me your decks.

DEADLINE: Wednesday the 25th of August at 11:00AM Central European Time.
(That's my time zone. Pacific Time it'll probably be something like Tuesday night a bit past midnight, so keep that in mind.)

PLEASE NOTE:
The way you send your deck to me matters. Please send it in the way described below, so it doesn't cost me an hour of editing before I can post all the decks.
Please send your deck as follows: Mountain, Quicksand, Desert, Suq'Ata Lancer.
So with card tags around each card, and not above eachother, and with your Username and 4CB S10R09 in the topic.
Don't forget to keep an eye on the banned list. You'll find it in the second post (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1064264&viewfull=1#post1064264) of the thread, or in our Google Spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1M2zwN9zxSe7IwiJmZH8eGXeNpEjqspR_SWT5d3Hqqac/edit?usp=sharing).

After the deadline has passed, I will post all decks on the forum here, and you can start puzzling out your scores.
If you have any questions, please read the first two posts of this thread first. If you can't find the answer there, drop a message here. We'll answer a.s.a.p.

Happy deck building! :smile:


Reminder:
Adventures in the Forgotten Realms will be legal next round, not this one.
Jumpstart: Historic Horizons is still in flux, but from our current voting it looks like most prefer to keep it out of our competition for this season at least, so that's where we stand right now.

[H]

Just want to throw in a reminder that I am out for the remainder of this season. Hopefully I'll have time to jump back in on the next though.

[Reeplcheep]

I really appreciated the break due to my busy summer. I am excited to see if my deck measures up to what people did tomorrow.

[Wrath of Pie]

I'm just interested in how terrible my entry is going to be.

[Asthereal]

Just want to throw in a reminder that I am out for the remainder of this season. Hopefully I'll have time to jump back in on the next though.
Thanks for the reminder. I had forgotten about that and added you to the list of regulars who haven't sent their entry yet. :wink:

Speaking of which: the deadline has passed, and I'm missing entries from many regulars: FTW, Tylert, Gobbo, silk and Serguei, by the looks of things.
I'll give you guys a little bit more time, but I'll be posting decks tonight, so don't wait too long!

[silkster]

Thanks for the remidner. I had forgotten about that and added you to the list of regulars who haven't sent their entry yet. :wink:

Speaking of which: the deadline has passed, and I'm missing entries from many regulars: FTW, Tylert, Gobbo, silk and Serguei, by the looks of things.
I'll give you guys a little bit more time, but I'll be posting decks tonight, so don't wait too long!

I just remembered when I woke up a few minutes ago. I didn't think about this at all, and I'm heading out the door in a minute, so I'll just throw something your way and maybe try again in 3 hours.

[FTW]

Thanks for the reminder. Forgot to check up on this thread.


I'm just interested in how terrible my entry is going to be.

Mine is probably terrible too, as is the nature of the format, but I really wanted to try out some tech.

[Asthereal]

I have a super busy week, so I have to post when I can. So can't wait for the last player. Here we go.


DECKS FOR ROUND 9 OF SEASON 10: Deviant Legacy Bannathon

This round we play Go Big Or Go Home: All non-land cards in your deck must have mana value 3 or greater.

The entries:
1. Asthereal (TO): Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer
2. mattamort: Thought-knot seer, Dismember, Eye of ugin, Eldrazi temple
3. alphastryk: Forest, Durkwood Baloth, Durkwood Baloth, Dismember
4. Phasmoid: Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer
5. dte: Sungrass prairie, Sandstone needle, rith's charm, Anurid Scavenger
6. jhhdk: Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai, Crystal Vein, Crucible of worlds, Smokestack
7. RoosterCocoa: Mountain, Keldon Halberdier, Keldon Halberdier, Fury
8. Wrath of Pie: Calciform Pools, Geier Reach Sanitarium, Chronosavant, Elspeth, Knight-Errant
9. PJim: Elvish Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, Mountain,Magus of the Moon
10. Reeplcheep: Mishra’s Factory , Mishra’s Factory, Rishadan Port , Cathedral of War
11. maxx!: Elvish Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, Mountain, Magus of the Moon
12. silkster: Sandstone Needle, Eldrazi Temple, Pillage, Thought-Knot Seer
13. FTW: Remote Farm, Urza's Saga, Crucible of Worlds, Gideon Blackblade
14. GoblinSmashmaster: Sandstone Needle, Sheltered Valley, Goblin Rabblemaster, Magus of the Moon
15. Serguei: Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer

Please post your scores and cross-check with the opponents.
You can also enter your scores in the Google Spreadsheet for the season which you can find here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1M2zwN9zxSe7IwiJmZH8eGXeNpEjqspR_SWT5d3Hqqac/edit?usp=sharing

[PJim]

9. PJim: Elvish Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, Mountain, Magus of the Moon
I really thought there'd be more lands.dec, but Magus appears to be doing a job anyway. This should be so easy to score I won't even bother waiting for maxx to do it for me.

1. Asthereal (TO): Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer // 6-0
2. mattamort: Thought-knot seer, Dismember, Eye of ugin, Eldrazi temple // 0-6
3. alphastryk: Forest, Durkwood Baloth, Durkwood Baloth, Dismember // 0-6
4. Phasmoid: Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer // 6-0
5. dte: Sungrass prairie, Sandstone needle, rith's charm, Anurid Scavenger // 6-0
6. jhhdk: Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai, Crystal Vein, Crucible of worlds, Smokestack // 6-0
7. RoosterCocoa: Mountain, Keldon Halberdier, Keldon Halberdier, Fury // 0-6
8. Wrath of Pie: Calciform Pools, Geier Reach Sanitarium, Chronosavant, Elspeth, Knight-Errant // 6-0
10. Reeplcheep: Mishra’s Factory , Mishra’s Factory, Rishadan Port , Cathedral of War // 6-0
11. maxx!: Elvish Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, Mountain, Magus of the Moon // 2-2
12. silkster: Sandstone Needle, Eldrazi Temple, Pillage, Thought-Knot Seer // 6-0
13. FTW: Remote Farm, Urza's Saga, Crucible of Worlds, Gideon Blackblade // 6-0
14. GoblinSmashmaster: Sandstone Needle, Sheltered Valley, Goblin Rabblemaster, Magus of the Moon // 6-0
15. Serguei: Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer // 6-0

62 points

[maxx!]

9. PJim: Elvish Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, Mountain, Magus of the Moon
I really thought there'd be more lands.dec, but Magus appears to be doing a job anyway. This should be so easy to score I won't even bother waiting for maxx to do it for me.

1. Asthereal (TO): Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer // 6-0
2. mattamort: Thought-knot seer, Dismember, Eye of ugin, Eldrazi temple // 0-6
3. alphastryk: Forest, Durkwood Baloth, Durkwood Baloth, Dismember // 0-6
4. Phasmoid: Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer // 6-0
5. dte: Sungrass prairie, Sandstone needle, rith's charm, Anurid Scavenger // 6-0
6. jhhdk: Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai, Crystal Vein, Crucible of worlds, Smokestack // 6-0
7. RoosterCocoa: Mountain, Keldon Halberdier, Keldon Halberdier, Fury // 0-6
8. Wrath of Pie: Calciform Pools, Geier Reach Sanitarium, Chronosavant, Elspeth, Knight-Errant // 6-0
10. Reeplcheep: Mishra’s Factory , Mishra’s Factory, Rishadan Port , Cathedral of War // 6-0
11. maxx!: Elvish Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, Mountain, Magus of the Moon // 2-2
12. silkster: Sandstone Needle, Eldrazi Temple, Pillage, Thought-Knot Seer // 6-0
13. FTW: Remote Farm, Urza's Saga, Crucible of Worlds, Gideon Blackblade // 6-0
14. GoblinSmashmaster: Sandstone Needle, Sheltered Valley, Goblin Rabblemaster, Magus of the Moon // 6-0
15. Serguei: Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer // 6-0

62 points

Looks right to me. Same. 62 :)

[Wrath of Pie]

8. Wrath of Pie: Calciform Pools, Geier Reach Sanitarium, Chronosavant, Elspeth, Knight-Errant

1. Asthereal (TO): Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer LL - I forgot about Thought-Knot Seer, and I see this is not going to end well.
2. mattamort: Thought-knot seer, Dismember, Eye of ugin, Eldrazi temple LL
3. alphastryk: Forest, Durkwood Baloth, Durkwood Baloth, Dismember LL
4. Phasmoid: Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer LL
5. dte: Sungrass prairie, Sandstone needle, rith's charm, Anurid Scavenger LL
6. jhhdk: Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai, Crystal Vein, Crucible of worlds, Smokestack LL
7. RoosterCocoa: Mountain, Keldon Halberdier, Keldon Halberdier, Fury LL
9. PJim: Elvish Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, Mountain,Magus of the Moon LL
10. Reeplcheep: Mishra’s Factory , Mishra’s Factory, Rishadan Port , Cathedral of War DD
11. maxx!: Elvish Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, Mountain, Magus of the Moon LL
12. silkster: Sandstone Needle, Eldrazi Temple, Pillage, Thought-Knot Seer LL
13. FTW: Remote Farm, Urza's Saga, Crucible of Worlds, Gideon Blackblade LL
14. GoblinSmashmaster: Sandstone Needle, Sheltered Valley, Goblin Rabblemaster, Magus of the Moon LL
15. Serguei: Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer LL

2d = 2 points

Oh good, two points!

[RoosterCocoa]

7. RoosterCocoa: Mountain, Keldon Halberdier, Keldon Halberdier, Fury


1. Asthereal (TO): Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer
OTP I suspend my halberdiers on my turns 1 and 2, so they come off of suspend on turns 5 and 6. The first thought-knot enters on your turn 2, and the second enters on your turn 3 while you attack me to 16. On your turn 4 you attack me to 8. On my turn 5 I get my halberdier, so you can only attack me to 4, and then once my second halberdier comes off of suspend you can't win. However, if you just stop attacking once I am at 8, I can't attack either since you will just double block a halberdier and then your one thought-knot outraces my halberdier. Thus we draw. OTD suspend is too slow and I lost. DL

2. mattamort: Thought-knot seer, Dismember, Eye of ugin, Eldrazi temple
OTP You can't race me down quickly enough, so we end up in a stare off after you dismember a halberdier. OTD you either dismember one and take the other with thought-knot, or I hold them both back until thought-knot is played and you take Fury, and manage to exactly kill me before a halberdier comes off of suspend. DL

3. alphastryk: Forest, Durkwood Baloth, Durkwood Baloth, Dismember
After you dismember a halberdier, I can't beat the baloths. LL

4. Phasmoid: Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer
Same as Asthereal. DL

5. dte: Sungrass prairie, Sandstone needle, rith's charm, Anurid Scavenger
OTP I suspend one halberdier and save the other so I can fury the scavenger, which I will do whenever you play it. You rith's charm on turn 2 for 3 1/1s. On turn 3 you attack me to 17, on turn 4 to 14, and then my halberdier enters on my turn 5. We both win in 5 attacks, so I win the race since I attack first. OTD the halberdier enters too late to win the race, and if I don't attack you can't win, so we draw. WD

6. jhhdk: Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai, Crystal Vein, Crucible of worlds, Smokestack
As far as I can tell you get crucible on turn 2, then smokestack on turn 4, so you make a 1/1 from turn 5 onward. I can't force 20 damage through that before my halberdiers die to smokestack, so I lose. LL

8. Wrath of Pie: Calciform Pools, Geier Reach Sanitarium, Chronosavant, Elspeth, Knight-Errant
If you go for Elspeth, I my 2 halberdiers are enough to kill her before she can kill me since you only get a single 1/1 per turn. If you go for chronosavant, I think you're too slow since you have to skip a turn, so I still win. WW

9. PJim: Elvish Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, Mountain,Magus of the Moon
I fury the magus and then win eventually. WW

10. Reeplcheep: Mishra’s Factory , Mishra’s Factory, Rishadan Port , Cathedral of War
You can at most make a factory a 4/4 when attacking or blocking, so you can't kill my halberdiers without double blocking. OTP I suspend both halberdiers before you can port me, so you try to race me down. On turn 2 you attack me to 18. On turn 3 you attack me to 15. On turn 4 you attack me to 11. I get my first halberdier on turn 5, so you can't attack anymore. Since you can double block to kill a halberdier and then I would lose the race afterwards, I don't attack either and we draw. OTD if you port me from turn 2 onwards, I can only suspend 1 halberdier. This means you only attack me with a 3/3 on turns 4 and 5 before the halberdier comes off of suspend, so I'm at 14 when it enters. I then attack you each turn with the halberdier. Blocking is a losing strategy for you, so you also attack. We end up with me at 5 and you at 8 on one of my turns. If I attack with the halberdier taking you down to 4, you attack me down to 2 and don't port me. If I attack you chump block with your second factory and win, and if I don't you win by attacking with both factories. Therefore, when I am at 5 and you are at 8 I stop attacking, and we draw. DD

11. maxx!: Elvish Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, Mountain, Magus of the Moon
I fury the magus and then win eventually. WW

12. silkster: Sandstone Needle, Eldrazi Temple, Pillage, Thought-Knot Seer
OTP I get both halberdiers which you can't beat with your thought-knot. OTD I only get one, so we end up in a draw. WD

13. FTW: Remote Farm, Urza's Saga, Crucible of Worlds, Gideon Blackblade
I think Gideon on turn 2 and a 2/2 construct on turn 3 are too fast for me. LL

14. GoblinSmashmaster: Sandstone Needle, Sheltered Valley, Goblin Rabblemaster, Magus of the Moon
I save fury and a halberdier for the rabblemaster, since my turn 1 suspended halberdier can outrace the magus. If you play rabblemaster before magus, I fury it and the token and win the race with the magus afterwards. If you chump block with the magus and then play the rabblemaster, I fury it and still win. WW

15. Serguei: Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer
Same as Asthereal. DL

10W 8D 10L = 38

I never actually looked up how evoke worked and assumed it was instant speed. It turns out it isn't, so dismember would have just been better here since it would have let me have both removal and two creatures. Even ignoring that, I tried to be too smart. I saw that Magus of the Moon would probably be good so I made a deck that would beat it, and then magus was barely played.

[dte]

1. Asthereal (TO): Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer
3-3
3

2. mattamort: Thought-knot seer, Dismember, Eye of ugin, Eldrazi temple
3-3
6

3. alphastryk: Forest, Durkwood Baloth, Durkwood Baloth, Dismember
6-0
12

4. Phasmoid: Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer
3-3
15

5. dte: Sungrass prairie, Sandstone needle, rith's charm, Anurid Scavenger
me, who had not thought of TKS and thought magus was already banned...

6. jhhdk: Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai, Crystal Vein, Crucible of worlds, Smokestack
6-0
21

7. RoosterCocoa: Mountain, Keldon Halberdier, Keldon Halberdier, Fury
1-4
22

8. Wrath of Pie: Calciform Pools, Geier Reach Sanitarium, Chronosavant, Elspeth, Knight-Errant
6-0
28

9. PJim: Elvish Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, Mountain,Magus of the Moon
0-6
28

10. Reeplcheep: Mishra’s Factory , Mishra’s Factory, Rishadan Port , Cathedral of War
6-0
34

11. maxx!: Elvish Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, Mountain, Magus of the Moon
0-6
34

12. silkster: Sandstone Needle, Eldrazi Temple, Pillage, Thought-Knot Seer
3-3
37

13. FTW: Remote Farm, Urza's Saga, Crucible of Worlds, Gideon Blackblade
6-0
43

14. GoblinSmashmaster: Sandstone Needle, Sheltered Valley, Goblin Rabblemaster, Magus of the Moon
3-3
46

15. Serguei: Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer
3-3
49

I expected a lot of full lands, baloth, dismember, maze and foil. But it turns out foil is banned, magus is not, and no one played maze. Oh, and also that TKS is a card.

[jhhdk]

1. Asthereal (TO): Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer LL
2. mattamort: Thought-knot seer, Dismember, Eye of ugin, Eldrazi temple LL
3. alphastryk: Forest, Durkwood Baloth, Durkwood Baloth, Dismember WW
4. Phasmoid: Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer LL
5. dte: Sungrass prairie, Sandstone needle, rith's charm, Anurid Scavenger LL
6. jhhdk: Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai, Crystal Vein, Crucible of worlds, Smokestack <--- ME
7. RoosterCocoa: Mountain, Keldon Halberdier, Keldon Halberdier, Fury WW
8. Wrath of Pie: Calciform Pools, Geier Reach Sanitarium, Chronosavant, Elspeth, Knight-Errant WW
9. PJim: Elvish Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, Mountain,Magus of the Moon LL
10. Reeplcheep: Mishra’s Factory , Mishra’s Factory, Rishadan Port , Cathedral of War LL
11. maxx!: Elvish Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, Mountain, Magus of the Moon LL
12. silkster: Sandstone Needle, Eldrazi Temple, Pillage, Thought-Knot Seer LL
13. FTW: Remote Farm, Urza's Saga, Crucible of Worlds, Gideon Blackblade WW LL
14. GoblinSmashmaster: Sandstone Needle, Sheltered Valley, Goblin Rabblemaster, Magus of the Moon LL
15. Serguei: Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer LL

My other deck might have done better: Volrath's Stronghold, Ebon Stronghold, Crucible of worlds, Shriekmaw.
I think I might have won against Thought-Knot Seer decks, but I think I'd still lose to most Magus of the moon-decks.

[dte]

5. dte: Sungrass prairie, Sandstone needle, rith's charm, Anurid Scavenger WW
6. jhhdk: Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai, Crystal Vein, Crucible of worlds, Smokestack <--- ME

How do you WW against me?
OTD you do not see your second land and never cast anything.
Also, I can have 7 creatures by my turn 4, so smokestack doesn't do much even if you are OTP.

Also vs Reeplcheep I don't think you beat rishadan port so easily.

[jhhdk]

How do you WW against me?
I don't. 3 x 1/1 every turn beats Smokestack@2, reading cards helps.

Also vs Reeplcheep I don't think you beat rishadan port so easily.
You are right again, I didn't think it through.
I'll update results.

[FTW]

13. FTW: Remote Farm, Urza's Saga, Crucible of Worlds, Gideon Blackblade

I expected more lands.dec with Urza's Saga, so I used the variation that beat the mirrors, but completely missed that turboMoon was unbanned.

My deck can go Construct aggro:
T2 Crucible
T3 1 Construct (2/2), replay tapped Farm
T4 2 Constructs (3/3), replay Saga at L1
T5 3 Constructs (4/4), replay tapped Farm
T6 4 Constructs (5/5), replay Saga at L1
T7 5 Constructs (6/6), replay tapped Farm
etc.

I can also play Gideon first:
T2 Gideon +1 [5 counters]
T3 Crucible, replay tapped Farm, +1 [6 counters]
T4 1 Construct (2/2), replay Saga at L1, +1 or -6 Gideon
T5 2 Constructs (3/3), replay tapped Farm
T6 3 Constructs (4/4), replay Saga at L1
etc.

I can either go for more constructs or I can slow down by 1 to get early 4/4 Gideon. Gideon's -6 ability is relevant against recursion engines. He can also give abilities to attacking constructs.


1. Asthereal (TO): OTP I play Crucible before TKS, so you exile Gideon. On your T3 you play 2nd TKS (taking nothing) and attack for 4. On your T4 you can attack with both TKS but I'll have 2 3/3 Constructs, so I can gang block and trade 1 Construct for 1 TKS (going to 12). Then next turn I'll have 2 3/3s again. If you don't attack, I make an even bigger army.
OTD TKS takes Crucible (otherwise I can do the same thing and stabilize at 4 life). I can play T2 Gideon and make a 1/1 Construct, or make 2 2/2 Constructs, but neither is enough to beat 2 4/4s.
WL 3-3

2. mattamort: OTP I get Crucible first and my constructs race 1 TKS. OTD you take Crucible with TKS. I can either make 2 2/2 Constructs (could trade with 4/4) or make Gideon, but Dismember breaks either one.
WL 3-3

3. alphastryk: Your 1st Baloth resolves on turn 6. By then I have 4 5/5s so it isn't even close. Dismembering one and going first help you a bit, but not enough. WW 6-0

4. Phasmoid: Same as Asthereal. OTP I get Crucible first and my Constructs race TKS. OTD you get Crucible and your 4/4s beat Gideon. WL 3-3

5. dte: Edit: Your engine is faster than I thought. LL 0-6

6. jhhdk: You play T2 Crucible (replay Vein), T3 2x Vein into Smokestack, T4 1 soot counter & replay Vein, T5 sac & replay Gods' eye for +1 creature. This is really slow. Not sure how you beat me.
OTP I play T2 Gideon and +1 to 5. T3 Crucible, attack for 4, +1 to 6 counters. T4 1 Construct, attack for 4 [J=8], +1 to 7 counters. On your turn 4 you put a counter on Smokestack. On my turn 5 I sacrifice a construct, then -1 to exile Smokestack. Now you can't make creatures, remove my permanents, or do anything. 4/4 + infinite constructs should win that.
OTD you're a turn faster but I can suicide Gideon on T4 to still exile Smokestack, then win with Constructs vs empty board.
WW 6-0

7. RoosterCocoa: You can make Keldon on turn 5. First strike is very relevant vs Construct gang-blocks, and Fury makes that worse. So I play Gideon first.
T2 Gideon +1 to 5 counter. T3 Crucible, attack for 4, +1 to 6. T4 2/2 Construct, attack for 4 [R=12], +1 to 7 counters. Gideon will always be too big to kill with Fury. On your turn 5 you get Keldon, but I can chump with a Construct and then -6 to exile it. If you then Fury Gideon to kill it, you're out of bodies and my Constructs win. If you suspended the 2nd Keldon to resolve on turn 6, it's dangerous but I can just make 1 Construct per turn to chump while Gideon beats down.
WW 6-0

8. Wrath of Pie: Not the best round to default to Elspeth. By the time you get Elspeth, Gideon's -6 can exile her. If you go for Chronosavant first, Gideon + Constructs might even kill you first. WW 6-0

9. PJim: Magus beats my deck. LL 0-6

10. Reeplcheep: OTP I play T2 Crucible before you get Port up. Then you still have to Port, otherwise Gideon is a problem. Porting stalls your Factory beatdown, and from there my Construct army should win this, since I can make Constructs on upkeep if you try to Port me off Gideon.
OTD you can Port me off Crucible, so I can only make 1 Construct and then lose. WL 3-3

11. maxx!: Magus beats my deck. LL 0-6

12. silkster: OTP I play T2 Crucible before you can Pillage or TKS. Then I can survive Pillage and swarm past TKS.
OTD Pillaging my land wrecks me. WL 3-3

14. GoblinSmashmaster: OTP I get T2 Gideon before you play T2 Magus. Then you can keep attacking Gideon to keep him off -6, but Gideon kills you the turn before Magus can kill Gideon.
OTD T2 Magus locks me out. WL 3-3

15. Serguei: Same as Asthereal. OTP I get Crucible first and Constructs beat the TKS. OTD TKS takes Crucible, I play Gideon, but your 4/4s can kill Gideon. WL 3-3

45 points (15 wins, 13 loss)

I also had the TKS deck in mind, but I thought this would be more fun and creative.

[FTW]

6. jhhdk: Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai, Crystal Vein, Crucible of worlds, Smokestack <--- ME
13. FTW: Remote Farm, Urza's Saga, Crucible of Worlds, Gideon Blackblade WW


I don't see how you win here. Smokestack is slow to get online. Gideon can exile Smokestack and also does a good job of beating down fast while I sacrifice Constructs or lands.

It might not be obvious how fast my deck can make bodies, so I posted the math above.

[Reeplcheep]

1. Asthereal (TO): Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer
2. mattamort: Thought-knot seer, Dismember, Eye of ugin, Eldrazi temple
3. alphastryk: Forest, Durkwood Baloth, Durkwood Baloth, Dismember DL
4. Phasmoid: Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer
5. dte: Sungrass prairie, Sandstone needle, rith's charm, Anurid Scavenger LL
6. jhhdk: Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai, Crystal Vein, Crucible of worlds, Smokestack WW
7. RoosterCocoa: Mountain, Keldon Halberdier, Keldon Halberdier, Fury DL
8. Wrath of Pie: Calciform Pools, Geier Reach Sanitarium, Chronosavant, Elspeth, Knight-Errant
9. PJim: Elvish Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, Mountain,Magus of the Moon LL
10. Reeplcheep: Mishra’s Factory , Mishra’s Factory, Rishadan Port , Cathedral of War Me
11. maxx!: Elvish Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, Mountain, Magus of the Moon LL
12. silkster: Sandstone Needle, Eldrazi Temple, Pillage, Thought-Knot Seer
13. FTW: Remote Farm, Urza's Saga, Crucible of Worlds, Gideon Blackblade WL
14. GoblinSmashmaster: Sandstone Needle, Sheltered Valley, Goblin Rabblemaster, Magus of the Moon LL
15. Serguei: Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer LL

I should have played inkmoths, but I wanted to play around chancellors plus leyline which was banned anyways.

[dte]

13. FTW: Remote Farm, Urza's Saga, Crucible of Worlds, Gideon Blackblade

5. dte: OTP I play Crucible before you can Rith's Charm my land. I haven't worked through all the lines (you could make a lot of 1/1s to chump Constructs or stall me with LD), but I think Gideon -6ing Anurid eventually wins any stalemate for me. OTD you kill my land before Crucible comes out and I lose. WL 3-3


Turbo Gideon is definitely a losing line:
T2 Gideon, T2 Anurid, T3 crucible (G6) and replay farm, T3 upkeep 3 tokens, replay land, put G at 3, T4 G at 4, saga at 1, my T4 I kill G, put you at 18, and destroy farm. Your T5 you rplay farm, saga is at 2. My T5 I replay needle, attack you to 12. Your T6 you can play one construct before saccing saga, my T6 I attack you to 7 and destroy farm --> you lose

Now turbo constructs:
T2 CoW, saga on 1 (S1).
If I go Anurid first, T2 anurid.
T3 S2, 1 construct, replay farm
T3 upkeep sac needle, destroy farm, draw and replay needle, attack to 17.
T4 S3 and sac saga, replay farm, attack me to 18.
T4 draw charm, attack to 14.
T5 play saga (1), I destroy farm EoT. You attack me to 16.
T5 draw and play needle (FTW 11)
T6 S2, play farm, attack (d14)
T6 draw charm, destroy farm, attack (FTW 8)
T7 S3, sac saga, play farm
T7 draw charm, sac needle make 3 tokens, attack FTW to 5.
T8 play saga on 1
T8 win.

I do not see how you can gain anything by mixing up the two approaches. The thing with saga not making constructs at 1 lore, and getting sacrificed at 3, together with farm EtB tapped, makes it fine to only be able to play charm twice over 3 turns.

So I think it is still 6-0 for me.

Otherwise very cool deck with crucible/saga, but it feels like gideon is maybe a bit underwhelming.

[FTW]

Turbo Gideon is definitely a losing line:
T2 Gideon, T2 Anurid, T3 crucible (G6) and replay farm, T3 upkeep 3 tokens, replay land, put G at 3, T4 G at 4, saga at 1, my T4 I kill G, put you at 18, and destroy farm. Your T5 you rplay farm, saga is at 2. My T5 I replay needle, attack you to 12. Your T6 you can play one construct before saccing saga, my T6 I attack you to 7 and destroy farm --> you lose


Interesting. I did not realize you could play T2 Anurid (thought it would die on upkeep and lose your engine), but that line works.

I had you on T2 Charm, T3 Anurid, T4 return land & play tapped land, T5 return & play Charm. That was slow enough for me to interact (Turbo Constructs to stall, eventually spending a turn on Gideon), but not with 6 power on turn 3 and replaying Charm turn 4.

[dte]

Yes, the decks has two main lines : T2 stone rain, or 7 creatures on T4 (including a protection black, I was expecting more dismember).
The good thing on Anurid is that you don't have to target a card from the graveyard.

[jhhdk]

I don't see how you win here. Smokestack is slow to get online. Gideon can exile Smokestack and also does a good job of beating down fast while I sacrifice Constructs or lands.
Yeah sorta forgot about his ultimate, i thought it would be too slow to be relevant (it kind of almost looked like it was when I convinced myself you'd play Crucible before Gideon).
I have updated my results accordingly.

[Phasmoid]

me: ​ 4. Phasmoid: Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer

other people with the same deck:
1. Asthereal (TO): Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer
15. Serguei: Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer

we 2-2 each other:
1 of each player’s TKSes exiles 1 of the other player’s TKSes, then the creatures either stare or trade.


46 points




2. mattamort: Thought-knot seer, Dismember, Eye of ugin, Eldrazi temple ​ WD 4-1


When I am OTP, I exile your TKS and then 1 of my TKSes wins.

when I am OTD:
If you _don’t_ cast T2 TKS, then I win in the same way as
when I’m OTP, so you cast T2 TKS and exile 1 of my TKSes.
I cast my other TKS. ​ You are tapped out, so you can’t respond with Dismember,
so I exile Dismember. ​ After that, our creatures either stare or trade.



3. alphastryk: Forest, Durkwood Baloth, Durkwood Baloth, Dismember ​ WD 4-1


I will cast T2 TKS, exiling Dismember if possible. ​ If that exiles Dismember, then my creatures
deal 4,8,8 damage to you on turns 3,4,5 respectively, winning before either Baloth enters.
Thus, on the turn just before my T2, you _don’t_ suspend a Baloth,
and on my T2, you Dismember my creature in response to its trigger.
That costs you 4 life, and when the trigger resolves I exile a Baloth.
I cast T3 TKS, and it attacks on turns 4 and 5, reducing you to 8 life.

when I am OTP:
You don’t suspend on T1, so it would take till your T7 for you to get
a Baloth on the battlefield. ​ My creature kills you the turn before that.

when I am OTD:
You _do_ suspend on T1. ​ That is a threat, so I cast T2 TKS as described.
The suspended Baloth enters the battlefield on your T6. ​ At that point, it would need
4 attacks to kill me, whereas TKS would only need 2 attacks to kill you, so we stare.



5. dte: Sungrass prairie, Sandstone needle, rith's charm, Anurid Scavenger ​ WL 3-3


when I am OTP:
T2 TKS exiles Anurid Scavenger, stopping you from retrieving anything.
Land destruction leaves your nothing against my creature, and damage prevention
just delays things 1 turn, so you create three 1/1s. ​ I cast my other TKS.
All blocks by you are chump-blocks, and 5 unblocked TKS attacks kills you.
Since you have only 3 blockers, 4 double-attacks is enough for that,
so you can’t attack more than 4 times before you lose.
4 attacks by you deals at most 12 damage to me, so I win.

when I am OTD:
I initially missed the ​ do nothing ​ idea, but that doesn't work for me either.
If I play a land on T1, then Rith’s Charm destroys it, so I can’t do anything.
In that case, although I figure there's _probably_ a recursion that lets you keep
Scavenger forever, that doesn't matter in this case, since Scavenger retrieves
Needle and Rith’s Charm, and then Rith’s Charm creating 1/1s works for you.
If I _don't_ play a land on T1, then you win as described in my post 2 after this post.



6. jhhdk: Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai, Crystal Vein, Crucible of worlds, Smokestack ​ WW 6-0

T2 TKS exiles Smokestack and wins.



7. RoosterCocoa: Mountain, Keldon Halberdier, Keldon Halberdier, Fury ​ WD 4-1


when I am OTP:
T2 TKS exiles a Halberdier. ​ If you use Fury, then your nothing loses to my creature.
If you don’t, then my creatures deal 4,8,8 damage to you on
turns 3,4,5 respectively, winning before you get a creature.

when I am OTD, I don’t win:
On T1, you suspend a Halberdier. ​ On turns 3 and 4,
my creatures deal at most 4 and 8 damage respectively to you.
On T5, Halberdier enters, and then I can’t get more than 4 additional
damage through to you. ​ That leaves you with at least 4 life.

When I am OTD, if you suspend nothing on T1 and T2 then I win in the same way as when I’m OTP.

when I am OTD, if you suspend on both T1 and T2 then:
You can’t use Fury. ​ On turns 3 and 4, my creatures deal 4 and 8 damage respectively to you.
That leaves you with 8 life when a Halberdier enters. ​ If you attack,
then I double-block, taking at most 4 damage and trading 1-for-1.
You would need 4 more attacks to kill me, whereas I would only need 2 more attacks to kill you.

when I am OTD, if you suspend on exactly one of T1,T2 then:
T2 TKS exiles a Halberdier, leaving you unable to use Fury. ​ I get my other TKS
before you get your creature, and if you attack then I double-block, trading.



8. Wrath of Pie: Calciform Pools, Geier Reach Sanitarium, Chronosavant, Elspeth, Knight-Errant ​ WW 6-0

T1 ​ land ​ ​ ​ T2 ​ land, put counter on Pools
T3 ​ you can’t get more than 2 mana, and getting 2 mana requires
also tapping the Sanitarium, so you still can’t use its discard ability
Thus I exile both of your threats and win.


9. PJim: Elvish Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, Mountain,Magus of the Moon ​ LL 0-6

T1 Magus of the Moon beats me.



10. Reeplcheep: Mishra’s Factory , Mishra’s Factory, Rishadan Port , Cathedral of War ​ WW 6-0


Me being OTP is only better for me, so I just analyze when I’m OTD.

some useful notes for this match:
A single Factory can’t _both_ pump and attack, and if you double-attack then
Cathedral won’t pump, so you can’t ever attack with more than 4 power combined.
Cathedral doesn’t pump on defense, so any non-chump block by you requires that
you started that turn with both Factories and didn’t attack the previous turn and didn’t
use Port’s non-mana ability the turn you blocked, since otherwise you would neither
be able to ​ double-animate + double-block ​ nor be able to ​ animate + double-pump .
Furthermore, since Factory pumps can’t give you better P/T than ​ ​ ​ 4/4 + 2/2 ​ or ​ 3/3 + 3/3 ​ ,
such a block can’t be better for you than trading with one of my creatures.
In particular, if you block beyond just
[blocking 1 of my creatures 1 time, with one or both of your Factories]
then I win, since afterwards I have a creature and you have nothing relevant.

On T1, I play Eye of Ugin. ​ That being tapped doesn’t matter, so I get to cast a TKS on turn 2.
If you attack on your T3, then I block if and only if that would not kill my creature.
Starting on my T3, I cast my other TKS if able, and if I still have a TKS in hand then I attack if able.
Factory doesn’t have haste, so it can’t attack on T1, and
it attacking on T2 requires that you have played it on T1.
If you go ​ ​ ​ Factory , Cathedral ​ , ​ ​ ​ then you won’t have mana to animate and attack on T2.
Thus you can’t get an Exalted attack on T2. ​ Animate-and-Attack requires
tapping 2 lands, so you also can’t get a Factory-pumped attack on T2.
In particular, I take at most 2 damage during your T2.

If you usefully attack on T3 then:
With only 3 lands, you can’t double-attack on your T3.
I will have an untapped 4/4 that turn, so you must get 4 power.
Since a single Factory can’t _both_ attack and pump, the only way you
can attack with 4 power on your T3 is with Cathedral plus both Factories.
In particular, that results in you ending your T3 with me at
at least 14 life and Port in hand and your other 3 cards tapped.
During my T3, I cast my other TKS and reduce you to 16 life.
During my next 2 turns combined I would attack for 16 total damage, and you can’t deal
more than 8 damage to me before then, so you must block at least one of my T4,T5 attacks.
By the useful notes, you block only one of my creatures and
either that is chump or you didn’t attack the previous turn.
If it was a chump-block, then you can get one more attack, letting me untap
with at least 2 life, after which two 4/4s beats one thing that’s at most a 4/4.
If you didn’t attack the previous turn, then the 4 damage you take from my unblocked attacker
puts me ahead in a race, and by the useful notes, you blocking again still loses.

Thus I take no damage during your T3, and start my T3 with at least 18 life.
Since you can’t ever attack with more than 4 power combined, my T3 attack
would put me ahead in a race, so you must block no later than my T7.
Since a single Factory can’t _both_ pump and attack, once you block,
you won’t be able to counterattack for more than 3 per turn.
As a result, if you chump-block without having first counterattacked for 4 at least three times
then you lose, since a single block only slows me down one turn, you deal at most
4+4+3+3+3 = 17 ​ damage to me before my T8, and blocking again still loses for you.
Thus you set up for a non-chump block or attack for 4 before you [block or set up].
By the notes, the former allows me to cast my other TKS, in which case I do that.

if you set up for a non-chump block on T3 then:
I don’t attack on T3, although after that I attack with everything that can.
This would kill you on my T6 even if you chump-block 1 of my creatures once,
which is before you can kill me, and you blocking more than that loses by
the notes, so you must again set up and this time make a non-chump block.
By the notes, that setup requires you not attacking on one of ​ T4,T5,T6 ,
so you would only kill me on T9. Without further blocks, my remaining
creature would kill you on T8, and you blocking it loses by the notes.

if you set up for a non-chump block after T3 but before you attack for 4, then:
By the notes, that setup requires you not attacking the previous turn.
Since this happens after T3, it means you miss an attack. ​ My other creature starts attacking
on my next turn, so your missed attack cancels out your block, leaving me still ahead in a race.
That forces you to block again, and then I win by the notes.

Thus you attack for 4 before you [block or set up for a non-chump block].
This requires that you either
[tap both Factories to attack and both other lands to animate them] or
[tap one Factory to attack, tap the other Factory to pump
the attacker, and tap one more land to animate the attacker].
In particular, on my next turn, you can’t use Port’s non-mana ability,
so I cast my other TKS, and you also can’t block.
I keep attacking with everything. ​ I will be attacking with 2 creatures by the time you can block,
so with at most 1 block, you would lose on T7, whereas it would take till T8 for you to win.
Thus you block more than once, but that still loses by the notes.

Therefore I win even when I’m OTD.



11. maxx!: Elvish Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, Mountain, Magus of the Moon ​ LL 0-6

T1 Magus of the Moon beats me.


12. silkster: Sandstone Needle, Eldrazi Temple, Pillage, Thought-Knot Seer ​ WL 3-3

When I am OTP, one of my TKSes exiles your TKS and wins.
When I am OTD, you Pillage me and then your TKS wins.



13. FTW: Remote Farm, Urza's Saga, Crucible of Worlds, Gideon Blackblade ​ WL 3-3


when I am OTD:
Construct aggro gives you 3 4/4s on T5. ​ I can’t deal
more than 12 damage to you before then, so I lose this.

when I am OTP:
T2 TKS exiles Crucible, so you can’t recur your lands. ​ That means Urza’s Saga
doesn’t give you more than 1 token, and than token can’t get bigger than 1/1.
That token can’t attack before my T3, so as my T3 starts, I have
at least 16 life, Gideon has at most 6 loyalty, and you can have a 1/1.
All of my creatures attack each combat if able, and attack Gideon each combat if able.
If you don’t block my T3 attack, then Gideon can’t ultimate and dies to my T4 attack.
In that case, you deal at most 6 damage to me before I untap on T5, and then two 4/4s beat a 1/1.
If you do chump-block with your token, then Gideon deals at most 4 more damage to me and still dies,
either to his own ultimate or to my T4 attack, and I’m left with at least one creature against your nothing.



14. GoblinSmashmaster: Sandstone Needle, Sheltered Valley, Goblin Rabblemaster, Magus of the Moon ​ WL 3-3


When I saw the Moon Man here, I had posted this as 0-6 because
I assumed it was it was the same as PJim's and maxx!'s decks.
However, this deck only has _T2_ Moon Man. ​ When I am OTD, that still beats me.

when I am OTP:
T2 TKS exiles Goblin Rabblemaster and attacks each combat if able.
Its T3,…,T10 attacks would deal 32 damage, and Moon Man can only
chump-block once, so you take at least 28 damage before your T10.
Even if you play Sheltered Valley on T1, you only gain life from it on turns ​ 2,…,9 .
That is only +8, and ​ 20+8-28 = 0 , ​ so you lose on T10,
which is before Moon Man would win for you.

[Serguei]

I have thought to play t1 TKS or magus and thzn i changer my monde once again.
So i went for the sloppy 2 TKS

1. Asthereal (TO): Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer
Nice deck DD 2 pts

2. mattamort: Thought-knot seer, Dismember, Eye of ugin, Eldrazi temple
Dismember was definitively à good tech to beat magus

OTP I will eat your tks. Then you can dismember it but will have bo answer for my second TKs
OtD you will eat 1 tks and I will remove your dismember then we stare D

WD 4 pts ->6 pts
3. alphastryk: Forest, Durkwood Baloth, Durkwood Baloth, Dismember
OTD
T1 baloth 5 counters
T1 eye
T2 balot 5 counter B4
T2 Tks eat dismember
T3 3C & 4C
T3 Tks. Attack you go to 16
T4 2C &3c
T4 attack you go to 8
T5 1 C & 2C
T5 attavk you go to 0

Otp it is espère
Ww 6 pts -> 12 pts

4. Phasmoid: Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer
Nice deck 2 pts -> 14pts

5. dte: Sungrass prairie, Sandstone needle, rith's charm, Anurid Scavenger
WL 3 pts -> 17

6. jhhdk: Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai, Crystal Vein, Crucible of worlds, Smokestack
WW 6pts -> 23 pts

7. RoosterCocoa: Mountain, Keldon Halberdier, Keldon Halberdier, Fury
I think pyrokinesis would have been better here
WD 4 pts -> 27 pts

8. Wrath of Pie: Calciform Pools, Geier Reach Sanitarium, Chronosavant, Elspeth, Knight-Errant
So slow 🙃
WW 6 pts -> 33 pts

9. PJim: Elvish Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, Mountain,Magus of the Moon
LL very good choisi

10. Reeplcheep: Mishra’s Factory , Mishra’s Factory, Rishadan Port , Cathedral of War
WW you cannot tap eye
6 pts -> 39 pts

11. maxx!: Elvish Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, Mountain, Magus of the Moon
LL

12. silkster: Sandstone Needle, Eldrazi Temple, Pillage, Thought-Knot Seer
WL 3 pts -> 42 pts

13. FTW: Remote Farm, Urza's Saga, Crucible of Worlds, Gideon Blackblade
WL 3 pts -> 45 pts

14. GoblinSmashmaster: Sandstone Needle, Sheltered Valley, Goblin Rabblemaster, Magus of the Moon
T1 magus was better
WL 3 pts -> 48 pts

[Phasmoid]

I have somewhere between 1 and 1.5 :-) disagreements with Serguei:
When I posted this, I was looking at Serguei's "WD" against dte,
but I now notice that that full line is ​ “WD 3 pts -> 17"
and Serguei's previous entry ends with ​ “ -> 14pts" .





OTP alphastryk: Forest, Durkwood Baloth, Durkwood Baloth, Dismember
OTD us: Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer

Serguei only considers alphastryk suspending on both T1 and T2, but I get
that alphastryk draws by suspending on T1 and then keeping the Forest
open to cast Dismember in response to the Thought-Knot Seer trigger.




OTP dte: Sungrass prairie, Sandstone needle, rith's charm, Anurid Scavenger
OTD us: Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer



I had not thought of ​ ​ ​ do nothing ​ , ​ ​ ​ but I believe dte beats that too.
If we don’t play a land on our T1, then dte can play as follows.


T2: ​ Anurid Scavenger, Needle goes from 2 to 1

T3
In response to the Scavenger’s upkeep trigger, dte casts Rith’s Charm,
sending Needle and Rith’s Charm to dte’s graveyard.
If we played a land on T2, then Rith’s Charm
destroys it, else Rith’s Charm creates 3 tokens.
As the trigger resolves, dte puts Needle into dte’s library,
so dte draws and re-plays it in the same turn. ​ Needle is at 2.

T4
​For the Scavenger’s trigger, dte puts Rith’s Charm
into dte’s library, so dte draws it in the same turn.
If Rith’s Charm destroyed a land on T3, then
dte wins by making 3 tokens with Rith’s Charm.
Otherwise, dte already has 3 tokens from T3, and a land destruction
card that dte can cast, so dte wins with those tokens.

[Phasmoid]

I was considering
Shivan Gorge ​ , ​ Dismember ​ , ​ Maze of Ith ​ , ​ red storage land
, ​ ​ ​ but decided against it on the basis of the
“play the good cards, rather than building a narrow deck against them”
comment I’ve seen in this thread and a 3CB thread.

(The above deck would've given me 4 more points; 46 -> 50.)

[mattamort]

1. Asthereal (TO): Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer
DL
1Pts


3. alphastryk: Forest, Durkwood Baloth, Durkwood Baloth, Dismember
OTD
T1 Baloth 5 Counters
T2 Eye
T3 Baloth 4 Counter - Baloth 5 Counters -> Keeping dismember up force the draw
T4 TKS grab Dismember
T5 Baloth 3 Counter - Baloth 4 Counters
T5 20-16
T6 Baloth 2 Counter - Baloth 3 Counters
T7 20-12
T8 Baloth 1 Counter - Baloth 2 Counters
T9 20-8
T10 Baloth 0 Counter -> Dismember 16-8 - Baloth#2 1 Counters
T11 20-4
T12 Baloth#2 0 Counter, can not attack -> D
OTP
Force the draw by keeping dismember up
DD
3Pts


4. Phasmoid: Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer
DL
4Pts


5. dte: Sungrass prairie, Sandstone needle, rith's charm, Anurid Scavenger
WL
7Pts


6. jhhdk: Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai, Crystal Vein, Crucible of worlds, Smokestack
WW
13Pts


7. RoosterCocoa: Mountain, Keldon Halberdier, Keldon Halberdier, Fury
OTP
T1 Eye
T2 Two options - Play nothing or Play Halberdier
Option #1, play Halbardier
T3 TKS -> Take Hallbardier #2, Fury can not be evoked anymore, dismember dispatches Hallbardier #1 -> W
Option #1, play Nothing
T3 TKS -> Take Fury
T4, Halberdier 4 Counter
T5 20-16
T6 Halberdier#1 3 Counter, Halberdier#2 4 Counter
T7 20-12
T8 Halberdier#1 2 Counter, Halberdier#2 3 Counter
T9 20-8
T10 Halberdier#1 1 Counter, Halberdier#2 2 Counter
T11 20-4
T12 Halberdier#1 0 Counter -> Dismember, Halberdier#2 1 Counter
T13 20-0 -> W

On the draw, you can block
WD
17Pts

8. Wrath of Pie: Calciform Pools, Geier Reach Sanitarium, Chronosavant, Elspeth, Knight-Errant
WW
23Pts


9. PJim: Elvish Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, Mountain,Magus of the Moon
WW
29Pts


10. Reeplcheep: Mishra’s Factory , Mishra’s Factory, Rishadan Port , Cathedral of War
WW
35Pts


11. maxx!: Elvish Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, Mountain, Magus of the Moon
WW
41Pts


12. silkster: Sandstone Needle, Eldrazi Temple, Pillage, Thought-Knot Seer
WL
44Pts


13. FTW: Remote Farm, Urza's Saga, Crucible of Worlds, Gideon Blackblade
WL
47Pts

14. GoblinSmashmaster: Sandstone Needle, Sheltered Valley, Goblin Rabblemaster, Magus of the Moon
WW
OTP Take Rabble and wins
OTD
T1 Land
T2 Land
T3 You play, I dismember
T4 I grab your other threat
53Pts

15. Serguei: Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer
DL
54Pts

[Phasmoid]

I disagree with mattamort against Reeplcheep.

mattamort: Thought-knot seer, Dismember, Eye of ugin, Eldrazi temple
Reeplcheep: Mishra’s Factory , Mishra’s Factory, Rishadan Port , Cathedral of War


29Pts


10. Reeplcheep: Mishra’s Factory , Mishra’s Factory, Rishadan Port , Cathedral of War
WW
35Pts

I get DD for this.


mattamort doesn't win:
Reeplcheep plays Rishadan Port last, so as mattamort's T5 starts, all of
Reeplcheep's lands are untapped and neither Factory is summoning-sick.
Reeplcheep has 12 life and currently no creatures,
so to make progress mattamort would need to attack.
When mattamort does, Reeplcheep taps both other
lands to animate both Factories, and double-blocks.
If mattamort Dismembers a Factory, then in response,
Reeplcheep double-pumps the other Factory.
Regardless of whether mattamort does or doesn't Dismember a Factory,
Thought-knot Seer takes 4 damage and so dies.
That leaves mattamort with no threats.

Reeplcheep doesn't win:
A single Factory can’t _both_ pump and attack, and if
Reeplcheep double-attacks then Cathedral won’t pump, so
Reeplcheep can’t ever attack with more than 4/4 total P/T.
Thus mattamort untaps on mattamort's T3 with at least 12 life,
and then Thought-Knot Seer holds off one Factory while Dismember
holds off another Factory, leaving mattamort with at least 8 life.

[Phasmoid]

I see another disagreement.


OTP mattamort: Thought-knot seer, Dismember, Eye of ugin, Eldrazi temple
OTD RoosterCocoa: Mountain, Keldon Halberdier, Keldon Halberdier, Fury


2. mattamort: Thought-knot seer, Dismember, Eye of ugin, Eldrazi temple
You can't race me down quickly enough, so we end up in a stare off after you dismember a halberdier. DD

7. RoosterCocoa: Mountain, Keldon Halberdier, Keldon Halberdier, Fury
OTP
T1 Eye
T2 Two options - Play nothing or Play Halberdier
Option #1, play Halbardier
T3 TKS -> Take Hallbardier #2, Fury can not be evoked anymore, dismember dispatches Hallbardier #1 -> W
Option #1, play Nothing
T3 TKS -> Take Fury
T4, Halberdier 4 Counter
T5 20-16
T6 Halberdier#1 3 Counter, Halberdier#2 4 Counter
T7 20-12
T8 Halberdier#1 2 Counter, Halberdier#2 3 Counter
T9 20-8
T10 Halberdier#1 1 Counter, Halberdier#2 2 Counter
T11 20-4
T12 Halberdier#1 0 Counter -> Dismember, Halberdier#2 1 Counter
T13 20-0 -> W

On the draw, you can block
WD
17Pts



Here I agree with mattamort.


if RoosterCocoa suspends on T1 then:
T2 Thought-Knot Seer exiles the other Halberdier, stranding Fury.
The suspended Halberdier enters on T5, well after mattamort untaps on T3,
so that Halberdier gets Dismembered and then Thought-Knot Seer wins.

if RoosterCocoa does not suspend on T1 then:
T2 Thought-Knot Seer exiles Fury.
RoosterCocoa suspends on T2 and T3, so the Halberdiers enter on T6 and T7.
The T6 Halberdier gets Dismembered, so Thought-Knot Seer
gets unblocked attacks on turns ​ 3,4,5,6,7 .
Those attacks deal 20 damage total and thus win.

[Phasmoid]

7. RoosterCocoa: Mountain, Keldon Halberdier, Keldon Halberdier, Fury

10. Reeplcheep: Mishra’s Factory , Mishra’s Factory, Rishadan Port , Cathedral of War
You can at most make a factory a 4/4 when attacking or blocking, so you can't kill my halberdiers.


I don't have time for further analysis right now, but:

Reeplcheep can double-animate and pump once or twice, getting a
combined P/T of 5/5 or 6/6, which _is_ enough to trade 1-for-1 with
a Halberdier when blocking, so I suspect you don't win even OTP.

[RoosterCocoa]

I think pyrokinesis would have been better here


I had been looking at some of the other evoke creatures which have flash, so I forgot that Fury couldn't be played at instant speed and thought I was being very smart by playing a pyrokinesis that couldn't be countered.


I see another disagreement.


OTP mattamort: Thought-knot seer, Dismember, Eye of ugin, Eldrazi temple
OTD RoosterCocoa: Mountain, Keldon Halberdier, Keldon Halberdier, Fury






Here I agree with mattamort.


if RoosterCocoa suspends on T1 then:
T2 Thought-Knot Seer exiles the other Halberdier, stranding Fury.
The suspended Halberdier enters on T5, well after mattamort untaps on T3,
so that Halberdier gets Dismembered and then Thought-Knot Seer wins.

if RoosterCocoa does not suspend on T1 then:
T2 Thought-Knot Seer exiles Fury.
RoosterCocoa suspends on T2 and T3, so the Halberdiers enter on T6 and T7.
The T6 Halberdier gets Dismembered, so Thought-Knot Seer
gets unblocked attacks on turns ​ 3,4,5,6,7 .
Those attacks deal 20 damage total and thus win.


I don't have time for further analysis right now, but:

Reeplcheep can double-animate and pump once or twice, getting a
combined P/T of 5/5 or 6/6, which _is_ enough to trade 1-for-1 with
a Halberdier when blocking, so I suspect you don't win even OTP.

Yeah, these look right. I'll update my results.

[RoosterCocoa]

I disagree with mattamort against Reeplcheep.

mattamort: Thought-knot seer, Dismember, Eye of ugin, Eldrazi temple
Reeplcheep: Mishra’s Factory , Mishra’s Factory, Rishadan Port , Cathedral of War



I get DD for this.


mattamort doesn't win:
Reeplcheep plays Rishadan Port last, so as mattamort's T5 starts, all of
Reeplcheep's lands are untapped and neither Factory is summoning-sick.
Reeplcheep has 12 life and currently no creatures,
so to make progress mattamort would need to attack.
When mattamort does, Reeplcheep taps both other
lands to animate both Factories, and double-blocks.
If mattamort Dismembers a Factory, then in response,
Reeplcheep double-pumps the other Factory.
Regardless of whether mattamort does or doesn't Dismember a Factory,
Thought-knot Seer takes 4 damage and so dies.
That leaves mattamort with no threats.

Reeplcheep doesn't win:
A single Factory can’t _both_ pump and attack, and if
Reeplcheep double-attacks then Cathedral won’t pump, so
Reeplcheep can’t ever attack with more than 4/4 total P/T.
Thus mattamort untaps on mattamort's T3 with at least 12 life,
and then Thought-Knot Seer holds off one Factory while Dismember
holds off another Factory, leaving mattamort with at least 8 life.

Could mattamort win by attacking with Thought-Knot, then when Reeplcheep tries to animate the second Factory mattamort Dismembers the one that is already a creature while the other's ability is on the stack? Only the one that is a creature can be pumped, so Reeplcheep would only be left with a 2/2 Factory.

[Wrath of Pie]

Someone remind me to not submit Elspeth when I am thinking that 3-drops are slow for some reason.

[Phasmoid]

Could mattamort win by attacking with Thought-Knot, then when Reeplcheep tries to animate the second Factory mattamort Dismembers the one that is already a creature while the other's ability is on the stack? Only the one that is a creature can be pumped, so Reeplcheep would only be left with a 2/2 Factory.

ah, yes: ​ That refutes my idea, so I no longer disagree when mattamort is OTP.
However, due to a new drawing idea, I still get D when Reeplcheep is OTP.



OTP Reeplcheep: Mishra’s Factory , Mishra’s Factory, Rishadan Port , Cathedral of War
OTD mattamort: Thought-knot seer, Dismember, Eye of ugin, Eldrazi temple


For each of mattamort's turns after T1, if mattamort neither casts nor attacks
then Reeplcheep does nothing on Reeplcheep's next turn.
That can't help mattamort win, so assume that on each
of those turns, mattamort [casts or attacks] if able.
During mattamort's turns, Reeplcheep doesn't animate before mattamort attacks,
so Dismember won't have a target other than mattamort's own creature.
mattamort Dismembering mattamort's own creature obviously doesn't
win for mattamort, so assume that on each of mattamort's turns
after T1, mattamort [casts Thought-Knot Seer or attacks] if able.

T1 Cathedral
T1 land
T2 Factory
T2 Thought-Knot Seer

Reeplcheep's T3:
Reeplcheep plays Factory, animates and
pumps the T2 Factory, and attacks with a 4/4. ​
mattamort can’t Dismember yet since mattamort is tapped out.
If mattamort blocks, then that's a trade, so assume mattamort goes to 16 life.

mattamort's T3:
Thought-Knot Seer attacks, reducing Reeplcheep to 16 life.

Reeplcheep's T4:
Reeplcheep plays Port. ​ Now, Reeplcheep is completely set up.
i.e., all 4 of Reeplcheep's cards are on the battlefield
and untapped and neither Factory is summoning-sick.

mattamort's T4:
Thought-Knot Seer attacks, and mattamort animates a Factory.
If mattamort casts Dismember before Reeplcheep
declares blockers, then in response Reeplcheep
animates and double-pumps the other Factory.
That other Factory would block and trade with Thought-Knot Seer,
so assume mattamort lets Reeplcheep declare blockers
without mattamort having casted Dismember.
Reeplcheep blocks and double-pumps the blocker.
That blocker would trade with Thought-Knot Seer,
so assume mattamort Dismembers the blocker.
Casting Dismember costs 4 life, reducing mattamort to 12 life,
but Reeplcheep blocked, so Reeplcheep stays at 16 life.
Furthermore, Thought-Knot Seer is tapped since it attacked.

Reeplcheep's T5:
Reeplcheep animates Reeplcheep's remaining Factory and attacks with a 3/3.
Since Thought-Knot Seer is tapped, that reduces mattamort to 9 life,
putting Reeplcheep ahead in a race, so mattamort doesn't win.

[Phasmoid]

I had been looking at some of the other evoke creatures which have flash, so I forgot that Fury couldn't be played at instant speed and thought I was being very smart by playing a pyrokinesis that couldn't be countered.

Were you imagining ​ “Counter target noncreature spell” ​ spells/abilities ?
General counterspells would work just fine against Fury.

[RoosterCocoa]

Were you imagining ​ “Counter target noncreature spell” ​ spells/abilities ?
General counterspells would work just fine against Fury.

Lol, no. I just apparently have no clue how evoke actually works.

[Phasmoid]

Lol, no. I just apparently have no clue how evoke actually works.

The reminder text
( https://scryfall.com/search?q=oracle%3AEvoke )
is pretty accurate, and
https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Evoke
has detailed rules for it.

[Phasmoid]

My other deck might have done better: Volrath's Stronghold, Ebon Stronghold, Crucible of worlds, Shriekmaw.


It might haveve done better anyway, but it would've
gotten 0 wins, since it doesn't even beat a goldfish:

Ebon Stronghold enters tapped
so
it has no way to get more than 4 mana in a single turn
so
it can't pay :4::b:
so
it has no threats.

[RoosterCocoa]

The reminder text
( https://scryfall.com/search?q=oracle%3AEvoke )
is pretty accurate, and
https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Evoke
has detailed rules for it.

Yeah, I actually looked it up before scoring this round and realized my mistake then. When I made the deck I had been assuming it working similarly to cycling.

[Asthereal]

I have thought to play t1 TKS or magus and thzn i changer my monde once again.
So i went for the sloppy 2 TKS

1. Asthereal (TO): Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer
Nice deck DD 2 pts

2. mattamort: Thought-knot seer, Dismember, Eye of ugin, Eldrazi temple
Dismember was definitively à good tech to beat magus

OTP I will eat your tks. Then you can dismember it but will have bo answer for my second TKs
OtD you will eat 1 tks and I will remove your dismember then we stare D

WD 4 pts ->6 pts
3. alphastryk: Forest, Durkwood Baloth, Durkwood Baloth, Dismember
OTD
EDIT: alpha goes t1: sus Baloth, t2: wait in order to Dismember the first Seer in response to the trigger, which ends in a staredown

Otp it is espère
WD 4 pts -> 12 pts (edit -2)

4. Phasmoid: Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer
Nice deck 2 pts -> 14pts

5. dte: Sungrass prairie, Sandstone needle, rith's charm, Anurid Scavenger
WL 3 pts -> 17

6. jhhdk: Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai, Crystal Vein, Crucible of worlds, Smokestack
WW 6pts -> 23 pts

7. RoosterCocoa: Mountain, Keldon Halberdier, Keldon Halberdier, Fury
I think pyrokinesis would have been better here
WD 4 pts -> 27 pts

8. Wrath of Pie: Calciform Pools, Geier Reach Sanitarium, Chronosavant, Elspeth, Knight-Errant
So slow 🙃
WW 6 pts -> 33 pts

9. PJim: Elvish Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, Mountain,Magus of the Moon
LL very good choisi

10. Reeplcheep: Mishra’s Factory , Mishra’s Factory, Rishadan Port , Cathedral of War
WW you cannot tap eye
6 pts -> 39 pts

11. maxx!: Elvish Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, Mountain, Magus of the Moon
LL

12. silkster: Sandstone Needle, Eldrazi Temple, Pillage, Thought-Knot Seer
WL 3 pts -> 42 pts

13. FTW: Remote Farm, Urza's Saga, Crucible of Worlds, Gideon Blackblade
WL 3 pts -> 45 pts

14. GoblinSmashmaster: Sandstone Needle, Sheltered Valley, Goblin Rabblemaster, Magus of the Moon
T1 magus was better
WL 3 pts -> 48 pts (edit -2=46)
I expect I shall score similarly to these scores. :smile:

[Phasmoid]

I expect I shall score similarly to these scores. :smile:

Similarly, but I expect not identically. ​ As I explained on the previous page,
Serguei only considers alphastryk suspending on both T1 and T2,
but I get that when alphastryk is OTP, alphastryk draws by
suspending on T1 and then keeping the Forest open to cast
Dismember in response to the Thought-Knot Seer trigger.

[Asthereal]

Similarly, but I expect not identically. ​ As I explained on the previous page,
Serguei only considers alphastryk suspending on both T1 and T2,
but I get that when alphastryk is OTP, alphastryk draws by
suspending on T1 and then keeping the Forest open to cast
Dismember in response to the Thought-Knot Seer trigger.
Alpha: Forest, sus Baloth (5)
Asthe: Land
Alpha: Baloth=4, wait
Asthe: Seer, triggers, resp Dismember Seer (Alpha=16), exile second Baloth, Alpha draws a nothing
Alpha: Baloth=3
Asthe: Seer
Alpha: Baloth=2
Asthe: Attack, Alpha=12
Alpha: Baloth=1
Asthe: Attack, Alpha=8
Alpha: Baloth resolves and we draw.

Looks legit. Changing results.

[PJim]

Looking at results for alphastryk, silkster and Goblin:

alphastryk vs silkster - 4-1, silk can't deal with two Baloths, but by Pillaging first can force the stare down on the play.
alphastryk vs GoblinSmashmaster - 6-0, Dismember takes the Goblin, and Magus doesn't achieve anything.
silkster vs GoblinSmashmaster - 3-3, first player denies mana to the second.
Reeplcheep vs silkster - Edit: 3-3, Easy OTP for Reep, who just taps down Needle eternally while a factory wins. With silk OTP, second turn Seer is the play. If Reep taps down Needle, then 4 power worth of blockers can't be activated, while if he doesn't, Pillage can take a factory, either way the 4/4 will be enough.

alphastryk vs Reeplcheep - Reep says 4-1, I think 6-0 - OTP, Reep can't survive if both Baloths land, so has to tap down the forest each of alpha's upkeeps after the first. This means he can do 3 damage a turn from turn 4, and it'll be 20-11 by the time the Baloth lands. Reep still can't let up with Port as then the Baloth can sit back and block until it's friend arrives (not to mention Dismember). This stops being true if he can knock alpha down to 2 life or less, but he can't in the time it takes Baloth to win. Both Factories can never be available to block without enabling the second Baloth to suspend.

Factory / Forest Baloth(5)
Port / Tap Forest (4)
Cathedral / (3)
Factory 20-17 / (2)
20-14 / (1)
20-11 / Baloth lands
Pass / 15-11
15-8 / 10-8
10-5 / 5-5 (If instead attack for 4, Baloth sits back and alpha suspends the second Baloth.)

I think I agree with all other results for these three.

[Asthereal]

So we're still missing results from silk, gobbo and alphastryk, but I don't think they can get to the top-3, so we can lock in the bannings for next round:
Dismember
Eldrazi Temple
Elvish Spirit Guide
Eye of Ugin
Magus of the Moon
Thought-Knot Seer

[Asthereal]

Silk, alpha and gobbo, please still check and post results, so I can close round 9 and post scores and standings.

There were no more replies to the question about the Arena only release. I decided to keep non-paper releases out of this season.
Also, for next round and onwards, the new set Adventures in the Forgotten Realms will be legal.
Time to open submissions for the next round.


ROUND 10 OF SEASON 10: DEVIANT LEGACY BANNATHON has started.

This round we play Peacekeeper: Creatures can't attack.

I have PM'ed myself my deck for round 10, so you can start sending me your decks.

DEADLINE: Wednesday the 1st of September at 11:00AM Central European Time.
(That's my time zone. Pacific Time it'll probably be something like Tuesday night a bit past midnight, so keep that in mind.)

PLEASE NOTE:
The way you send your deck to me matters. Please send it in the way described below, so it doesn't cost me an hour of editing before I can post all the decks.
Please send your deck as follows: Mountain, Quicksand, Desert, Suq'Ata Lancer.
So with card tags around each card, and not above eachother, and with your Username and 4CB S10R10 in the topic.
Don't forget to keep an eye on the banned list. You'll find it in the second post (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1064264&viewfull=1#post1064264) of the thread, or in our Google Spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1M2zwN9zxSe7IwiJmZH8eGXeNpEjqspR_SWT5d3Hqqac/edit?usp=sharing).

After the deadline has passed, I will post all decks on the forum here, and you can start puzzling out your scores.
If you have any questions, please read the first two posts of this thread first. If you can't find the answer there, drop a message here. We'll answer a.s.a.p.

Happy deck building! :smile:

[alphastryk]

Apologies for the delay.

Its been a long time! Glad we're back at the game. Lets see how I did with my entry I submitted before the break!


1. Asthereal (TO): Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer
I should have seen Eldrazi coming
OTP: I can either suspend 1 Baloth and keep up Dismember in response to the TKS on your turn 2, or play 2 Baloths you can't disrupt. Lets try making 2 5/5s first. I get my first 5/5 on my turn 6, and my second on my turn 7. You get your first 4/4 on your turn 2, and your second on your turn 3. That means I take 4, 12, 20 damage before I get a Baloth so that's no good. If I instead suspend one and Dismember the first TKS in response to the trigger, then you get a 4/4 on your turn 3 (with me at 16), and I get a 5/5 on my turn 6. You can attack me down to 8 but then I get a 5/5 to block so we draw. D
OTD: I can either suspend 1 Baloth or keep up Dismember, keeping up Dismember is better because we already know I can't race 2 4/4s. I dismember your first TKS on your turn 2, then you get your second on your turn 3 after I suspend my Baloth, which I get on my turn 7. You attack me starting on your turn 4 for 4 each turn, starting at 16, so you kill me on your turn 7, just before the Baloth arrives. L

1-4

2. mattamort: Thought-knot seer, Dismember, Eye of ugin, Eldrazi temple
Eldrazi 2.0!
I tried a lot of permutations, but ultimately I think this always turns into a draw, because it essentially always boils down to threat + removal vs threat + removal or threat + removal vs threat + threat. DD

2-2

3. alphastryk: Forest, Durkwood Baloth, Durkwood Baloth, Dismember
This is me

4. Phasmoid: Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer
I should have seen Eldrazi coming DL

1-4

5. dte: Sungrass prairie, Sandstone needle, rith's charm, Anurid Scavenger
Protection from Black, eh? I can't beat your looping token generation. LL

0-6

6. jhhdk: Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai, Crystal Vein, Crucible of worlds, Smokestack
I love that you made Smokestack work in this format. LL

0-6

7. RoosterCocoa: Mountain, Keldon Halberdier, Keldon Halberdier, Fury
Fury can't kill a Baloth, and I can Dismember a Halberdier, then 5/5s take it home. WW

6-0

8. Wrath of Pie: Calciform Pools, Geier Reach Sanitarium, Chronosavant, Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 threats beats Elspeth, then the Giant is too slow. WW

6-0

9. PJim: Elvish Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, Mountain,Magus of the Moon
Moonman doesn't affect my Forest. WW

6-0

10. Reeplcheep: Mishra’s Factory , Mishra’s Factory, Rishadan Port , Cathedral of War
OTP I'm able to suspend both Baloths before you Port me out of the game, so its just a question of whether your Factories kill me before I get a blocker, and you have to Port me off of Dismember to attack, so you can't attack (for 3) until your turn 4. That's too slow and I get a Baloth to block. W
OTD I'm only able to get a single Baloth, but it still comes down fast enough to race because you have to Port me off of Dismember. W

6-0

11. maxx!: Elvish Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, Mountain, Magus of the Moon
Moonman doesn't affect my Forest. WW

6-0

12. silkster: Sandstone Needle, Eldrazi Temple, Pillage, Thought-Knot Seer
On your turn 2 I always lost my land (because its better than making me discard). That means I get to suspend either 1 or 2 Baloths first though, getting the first on my turn 6. When I get 2 Baloths, I can both attack and block, but when I only get 1 we stare. WD

4-1

13. FTW: Remote Farm, Urza's Saga, Crucible of Worlds, Gideon Blackblade
Too many constructs. LL

0-6

14. GoblinSmashmaster: Sandstone Needle, Sheltered Valley, Goblin Rabblemaster, Magus of the Moon
Dismember Rabblemaster, ignore Moonman. WW

6-0

15. Serguei: Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Thought-Knot Seer, Thought-Knot Seer
I should have seen Eldrazi coming DL

1-4


Total if I got that right: 45 points, which aligns with what's already in the spreadsheet.

[jhhdk]

6. jhhdk: Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai, Crystal Vein, Crucible of worlds, Smokestack
I love that you made Smokestack work in this format. LL

That is very generous, I'd be inclined to say I made it "work", my score ended up being quite modest.

[alphastryk]

That is very generous, I'd be inclined to say I made it "work", my score ended up being quite modest.

I said that more as someone who loves smokestack than by actually calculating the results

[Asthereal]

The deadline has passed, and we're missing quite a few: FTW, Tylert, Phasmoid, Reeplcheep, Serguei, Wrath and jhhdk, by the looks of things.
I'll give you guys some more time while I do work stuff, and I'll try to post standings for last round as well at some point.

[Asthereal]

Standings for round 9, after me deciding that alpha's math looks correct against matta:
1. PJim: 62 - 4,4
1. maxx!: 62 - 4,4
3. mattamort: 52 - 3,7
4. dte: 49 - 3,5
5. Asthereal (TO): 46 - 3,3
5. Phasmoid: 46 - 3,3
5. Serguei: 46 - 3,3
8. alphastryk: 45 - 3,2
8. FTW: 45 - 3,2
10. RoosterCocoa: 38 - 2,7
10. silkster: 38 - 2,7
12. GoblinSmashmaster: 36 - 2,6
13. jhhdk: 18 - 1,3
14. Reeplcheep: 16 - 1,1
15. Wrath of Pie: 2 - 0,1

Leading to these standings in the season:
1. Serguei: 32,2
2. dte: 31,9
3. mattamort: 30,7
4. silkster: 30,4
5. FTW: 30,1
6. Tylert: 29,6
7. PJim: 29,4
8. maxx!: 28,1
9. GoblinSmashmaster: 27,7
10. alphastryk: 26,6
11. RoosterCocoa: 22,2
12. Reeplcheep: 19,8
13. Wrath of Pie: 19,4
14. Asthereal (TO): 17,6
15. Phasmoid: 17,1
16. jhhdk: 13,3
17. H: 10
18. shiftyhomunculus: 3,1

[Asthereal]

Last night no more decks came in, so I guess this is it. Let's start the round.


DECKS FOR ROUND 10 OF SEASON 10: Deviant Legacy Bannathon

This round we play Peacekeeper: Creatures can't attack.

The entries:
1. Asthereal (TO): Volcanic Island, Sheltered Valley, Keldon Megaliths, Energy Field
2. GoblinSmashmaster: Lotus Bloom, Lotus Bloom, Noxious Revival, Barren Glory
3. dte: Daze, Underground Sea, Shrieking Affliction, Sleeper Agent
4. PJim: Stomping Ground, Orcish Lumberjack, Aluren, Acererak the Archlich
5. alphastryk: Phyrexian Tower, Shield Sphere, Sleeper Agent, Sleeper Agent
6. silkster: Swamp, Sleeper Agent, Leyline of Sanctity, Specter's Shriek
7. maxx!: Leyline of Sanctity, Icatian Store, Karn Liberated, Approach of the Second Sun
8. RoosterCocoa: Mountain, Swamp, Raze, Sleeper Agent
9. mattamort: Subterranean Hangar, Forbidden orchard, Rakdos Charm, Beast Within
10. jhhdk: Ebon Stronghold, Smallpox, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Shrieking Affliction
11. Reeplcheep: Swamp , Go Blank, Shrieking Affliction , Dark Ritual
12. Wrath of Pie: Scoured Barrens, Karakas, Wheel of Sun and Moon, Tyrant's Choice
13. FTW: Remote Farm, Interplanar Beacon, Kaya, Orzhov Usurper, Davriel, Rogue Shadowmage
14. Serguei: Swamp, Duress, Sleeper Agent, Leyline of sanctity

Please post your scores and cross-check with the opponents.
You can also enter your scores in the Google Spreadsheet for the season which you can find here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1M2zwN9zxSe7IwiJmZH8eGXeNpEjqspR_SWT5d3Hqqac/edit?usp=sharing

[Asthereal]

Asthereal's scores for round "Don't play Energy Field. Oops...":

1. Asthereal (TO): Volcanic Island, Sheltered Valley, Keldon Megaliths, Energy Field <-me
2. GoblinSmashmaster: Lotus Bloom, Lotus Bloom, Noxious Revival, Barren Glory LL
3. dte: Daze, Underground Sea, Shrieking Affliction, Sleeper Agent LL
4. PJim: Stomping Ground, Orcish Lumberjack, Aluren, Acererak the Archlich LL
EDIT: Misunderstood the mechanics. You get to infinitely complete good dungeons as long as you don't complete the bad one.
5. alphastryk: Phyrexian Tower, Shield Sphere, Sleeper Agent, Sleeper Agent LL
6. silkster: Swamp, Sleeper Agent, Leyline of Sanctity, Specter's Shriek LL
7. maxx!: Leyline of Sanctity, Icatian Store, Karn Liberated, Approach of the Second Sun LL
8. RoosterCocoa: Mountain, Swamp, Raze, Sleeper Agent LL
9. mattamort: Subterranean Hangar, Forbidden orchard, Rakdos Charm, Beast Within LL (nice deck)
10. jhhdk: Ebon Stronghold, Smallpox, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Shrieking Affliction LL
11. Reeplcheep: Swamp , Go Blank, Shrieking Affliction , Dark Ritual DD
EDIT: I don't play any cards. Go Blank makes me discard two, but the other two remain in hand and Affliction can't hurt me. Of course I can't try for a win, but this should be enough for two draws.
12. Wrath of Pie: Scoured Barrens, Karakas, Wheel of Sun and Moon, Tyrant's Choice LL
13. FTW: Remote Farm, Interplanar Beacon, Kaya, Orzhov Usurper, Davriel, Rogue Shadowmage DD
I play Valley and Volc, keep Field and Megaliths in hand. You can only win by making me discard a card. If you do, I discard Megaliths and then cast Energy Field for the draws.
14. Serguei: Swamp, Duress, Sleeper Agent, Leyline of sanctity LL

Total: 4 points. I really need to stop playing Energy Field.

[jhhdk]

Preliminary analysis:
1. Asthereal (TO): Volcanic Island, Sheltered Valley, Keldon Megaliths, Energy Field WW
2. GoblinSmashmaster: Lotus Bloom, Lotus Bloom, Noxious Revival, Barren Glory LL ?? Not sure whether i get to cast smallpox twice before Blooms unsuspend. See below.
3. dte: Daze, Underground Sea, Shrieking Affliction, Sleeper Agent LL, Daze on Smallpox and I am screwed it seems.
4. PJim: Stomping Ground, Orcish Lumberjack, Aluren, Acererak the Archlich WL I guess
5. alphastryk: Phyrexian Tower, Shield Sphere, Sleeper Agent, Sleeper Agent WW
6. silkster: Swamp, Sleeper Agent, Leyline of Sanctity, Specter's Shriek DD LL it seems, you snatch smallpox before i can cast it., but shrieking affliction races agent. So you have to settle for draw.
7. maxx!: Leyline of Sanctity, Icatian Store, Karn Liberated, Approach of the Second Sun WW
8. RoosterCocoa: Mountain, Swamp, Raze, Sleeper Agent WL it seems. LL
9. mattamort: Subterranean Hangar, Forbidden orchard, Rakdos Charm, Beast Within WW, maybe
10. jhhdk: Ebon Stronghold, Smallpox, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Shrieking Affliction ME
11. Reeplcheep: Swamp , Go Blank, Shrieking Affliction , Dark Ritual LL DD WL, it appears you've discovered anti eldrazi recycling tech, but OTP discard Kozilek and smallpox to Go Blank and just cast Shrieking Affliction which will hit you first.
12. Wrath of Pie: Scoured Barrens, Karakas, Wheel of Sun and Moon, Tyrant's Choice WL OTP i resolve smallpox before you can wheel
13. FTW: Remote Farm, Interplanar Beacon, Kaya, Orzhov Ursurper, Davriel, Rogue Shadowmage WW i think
14. Serguei: Swamp, Duress, Sleeper Agent, Leyline of sanctity LL, I lose smallpox before I can cast it. DD

Ebon Stronghold, Smallpox, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Shrieking Affliction
Vs
Lotus Bloom, Lotus Bloom, Noxious Revival, Barren Glory

OTP:
J: Stronghold
G: Suspend Bloom x 2
J: Smallpox -> Noxious Revival
G: Blooms (2)
J: Draw Kozi
G: Blooms (1)
J: Draw Smallpox
G: Blooms (0), Barren Glory
J: Draw Stronghold
G: Win

[PJim]

4. PJim: Stomping Ground, Orcish Lumberjack, Aluren, Acererak the Archlich
I didn't think this would do well, but I lacked time to really dig into anything, so I decided to go fast and stupid.

My combo wins on turn 2 when not disrupted. Aluren allows me to play Acererak for free, he gives me a venture and bounces himself. I go through Lost Mine of Phandelver infinite times, hitting Dark Pool enough times to win (non-targeting and life loss). On the downside, I'm pretty disruptable.

1. Asthereal (TO): Volcanic Island, Sheltered Valley, Keldon Megaliths, Energy Field // 6-0, no disruption.
2. GoblinSmashmaster: Lotus Bloom, Lotus Bloom, Noxious Revival, Barren Glory // 6-0, I'm faster.
3. dte: Daze, Underground Sea, Shrieking Affliction, Sleeper Agent // 0-6, I really thought Daze was gone.
5. alphastryk: Phyrexian Tower, Shield Sphere, Sleeper Agent, Sleeper Agent // 6-0, no disruption.
6. silkster: Swamp, Sleeper Agent, Leyline of Sanctity, Specter's Shriek // 0-6, bad vs discard.
7. maxx!: Leyline of Sanctity, Icatian Store, Karn Liberated, Approach of the Second Sun // 6-0, no disruption.
8. RoosterCocoa: Mountain, Swamp, Raze, Sleeper Agent // 0-6, need my land.
9. mattamort: Subterranean Hangar, Forbidden orchard, Rakdos Charm, Beast Within // 6-0, won't have mana fast enough to disrupt.
10. jhhdk: Ebon Stronghold, Smallpox, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Shrieking Affliction // 3-3, Smallpox disrupts, but only on turn 2.
11. Reeplcheep: Swamp , Go Blank, Shrieking Affliction , Dark Ritual // 2-2, hold my cards
12. Wrath of Pie: Scoured Barrens, Karakas, Wheel of Sun and Moon, Tyrant's Choice // 6-0, no disruption.
13. FTW: Remote Farm, Interplanar Beacon, Kaya, Orzhov Usurper, Davriel, Rogue Shadowmage // 3-3, either walker disrupts, but only on turn 2.
14. Serguei: Swamp, Duress, Sleeper Agent, Leyline of sanctity // 0-6, bad vs discard.

44 points. Not as bad as I anticipated.

[Serguei]

I would like to apologize to Asthereal for the late minute submission and the format of my entry but it is difficult with a phone.

So creatures cannot attack. so we will have strict win conditions like Approach of the Second Sun.
We will have direct damages like Keldon Megaliths.
So it appears very quickly thqt LL of sanctity will be greaat.
Sleeper agent does not win over LL but as creatures will not be abble to attack I assumed that people will not go with removals, and with a 1ccm it is very effective.


1. Asthereal (TO): Volcanic Island, Sheltered Valley, Keldon Megaliths, Energy Field
I discard your energy field. You cannot target me with keldon because of LL.
Agent will deal 2 damage by turn whereas valley earn you only 1 life. you will die slowly
WW 6 pts -> 6pts

2. GoblinSmashmaster: Lotus Bloom, Lotus Bloom, Noxious Revival, Barren Glory
Sadly for you you will have a sleeper agent on the battlefield
WW 6 pts -> 12 pts

3. dte: Daze, Underground Sea, Shrieking Affliction, Sleeper Agent
OTP I play swamp and sleeper and keeping LL in hand not to take damage from shrieking afflcition. then you will die first
OTD I cannot win. so i just land LL and then we stare
WD 4 pts -> 16 pts

4. PJim: Stomping Ground, Orcish Lumberjack, Aluren, Acererak the Archlich
I duress your aluren
WW 6 pts -> 22 pts

5. alphastryk: Phyrexian Tower, Shield Sphere, Sleeper Agent, Sleeper Agent
I cannot win because of phyrexian tower.
But LL prevent you to give me your sleeper agents

DD 2 pts -> 24 pts

6. silkster: Swamp, Sleeper Agent, Leyline of Sanctity, Specter's Shriek
We stare with our LL
DD 2 pts -> 26 pts

7. maxx!: Leyline of Sanctity, Icatian Store, Karn Liberated, Approach of the Second Sun
I cannot do anything
LL

8. RoosterCocoa: Mountain, Swamp, Raze, Sleeper Agent
LL avoid you give me a sleeper
I give you mine and win
WW 6 pts -> 32 pts

9. mattamort: Subterranean Hangar, Forbidden orchard, Rakdos Charm, Beast Within
I discard your beast within, then you cannot do anything
WW 6 pts -> 38 pts

10. jhhdk: Ebon Stronghold, Smallpox, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Shrieking Affliction
Affliction is faster than sleper agent and I cannot beat small pox so i go for the draw.
I do not play either LL and agent not to take damage from affliction. and I duress your small pox

DD 2 pts -> 40 pts

11. Reeplcheep: Swamp , Go Blank, Shrieking Affliction , Dark Ritual
OTP I duress your affliction and win
OTD I cannot win so i go for the draw by doing nothing
WD 4 pts -> 44 pts

12. Wrath of Pie: Scoured Barrens, Karakas, Wheel of Sun and Moon, Tyrant's Choice
Duress your wheel and win

WW 6 pts ->50 pts

13. FTW: Remote Farm, Interplanar Beacon, Kaya, Orzhov Usurper, Davriel, Rogue Shadowmage
OTP
T1 agent
T1 FTW18, remote farm
T2 duress kaya
T2 FTW16, davriel FTW 17 and you will loose the race but it is close

OTD you will be faster so I just land LL and we stare

WD 4 pts -> 54 pts

15W 9D 2L
Not so bad for my first idea

[jhhdk]

Asthereal's scores for round "Don't play Energy Field. Oops...":
4. PJim: Stomping Ground, Orcish Lumberjack, Aluren, Acererak the Archlich WW
Had to read all these. But creatures can't attack so I don't die and you do because of Megaliths?

I think you die to him going infinite into dungeons.
Lost mine of Phandelver

[Serguei]

Asthereal's scores for round "Don't play Energy Field. Oops...":

4. PJim: Stomping Ground, Orcish Lumberjack, Aluren, Acererak the Archlich WW
Had to read all these. But creatures can't attack so I don't die and you do because of Megaliths?

Sadly for you you will loose t2. He will be able to play infinite numbers of time Acererak as he will bounceback in hand if he as not completed the dungeon of the tomb of anihilation.
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fventurebeat.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2021%2F06%2FFR-Dungeons.png%3Fresize%3D811%252C372%26strip%3Dall&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fventurebeat.com%2F2021%2F06%2F24%2Fmagic-the-gatherings-adventures-in-the-forgotten-realms-delves-into-dungeons%2F&tbnid=eRIafeGl3WFeqM&vet=12ahUKEwiRydPx79_yAhUw5IUKHaoPBwYQMygAegUIARCoAQ..i&docid=Ao5GbK9SVkW89M&w=811&h=372&q=mtg%20dungeons&ved=2ahUKEwiRydPx79_yAhUw5IUKHaoPBwYQMygAegUIARCoAQ

so for each time acererak will enter the battlefield he we be able to enter a dungeon (the one he wants) and venture a step.
He we be able to execute infinite number of time each steps of the lost mine of phandelver for example.
With this particualr stepEach opponent looses 1life and you gain 1life.


Sohe will infinite damage you t2 even with field in play

[dte]

1. Asthereal (TO): Volcanic Island, Sheltered Valley, Keldon Megaliths, Energy Field
6-0, I am way faster.
6

2. GoblinSmashmaster: Lotus Bloom, Lotus Bloom, Noxious Revival, Barren Glory
6-0. I thought of this deck as it would beat LLoS and duress (which I thought would be the two major players), before thinking orchard and generous gift were great and would also be played this round. Turns out all four were played, but not to a large extent at all.
12

3. dte: Daze, Underground Sea, Shrieking Affliction, Sleeper Agent
me, thinking of aggressive tempo would be good, likely drawing vs LLoS and not bad vs the rest of the field.

4. PJim: Stomping Ground, Orcish Lumberjack, Aluren, Acererak the Archlich
6-0, Daze FTW
18

5. alphastryk: Phyrexian Tower, Shield Sphere, Sleeper Agent, Sleeper Agent
0-6. Phyrexian tower, smart choice!
18

6. silkster: Swamp, Sleeper Agent, Leyline of Sanctity, Specter's Shriek
2-2. You just play LLoS
20

7. maxx!: Leyline of Sanctity, Icatian Store, Karn Liberated, Approach of the Second Sun
0-6. Cannot do anything against this deck.
20

8. RoosterCocoa: Mountain, Swamp, Raze, Sleeper Agent
3-3. First agent wins, as you do not have to commit more cards.
23

9. mattamort: Subterranean Hangar, Forbidden orchard, Rakdos Charm, Beast Within
6-0. I am faster, and 2 threats > 1 answer.
29

10. jhhdk: Ebon Stronghold, Smallpox, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Shrieking Affliction
6-0. OTD, I start with agent. If you cast smallpox, I daze, you have no lands and will lose to agent. So you can only cast affliction. If you cast it, it resolves. You still have to make a move not to die to agent. I daze smallpox if you cast it, and resolve affliction.
35

11. Reeplcheep: Swamp , Go Blank, Shrieking Affliction , Dark Ritual
6-0. I daze go blank if you try to cast it.
41

12. Wrath of Pie: Scoured Barrens, Karakas, Wheel of Sun and Moon, Tyrant's Choice
6-0, daze wheel.
47

13. FTW: Remote Farm, Interplanar Beacon, Kaya, Orzhov Usurper, Davriel, Rogue Shadowmage
0-6. Davriel makes sure to eat the daze for resolving Kaya, and Kaya wins.
47

14. Serguei: Swamp, Duress, Sleeper Agent, Leyline of sanctity
1-4, OTP you play LLoS and nothing else. OTD you win the agent race.
48

I did not get the field right, but did fine.

[Asthereal]

I think you die to him going infinite into dungeons.
Lost mine of Phandelver
Oooh I misunderstood the card completely. I thought he could only complete that dumb dungeon, but he gets to complete all the other ones as much as he wants, as long as he doesn't complete the dumb one.
Right. I guess I just die then.

[Reeplcheep]

11. Reeplcheep: Swamp , Go Blank, Shrieking Affliction , Dark Ritual

I expected a bunch of recursive grindy decks, so I wanted gy hate. It also turns out to be decent vs combo.

DECKS FOR ROUND 10 OF SEASON 10: Deviant Legacy Bannathon

This round we play Peacekeeper: Creatures can't attack.

The entries:
1. Asthereal (TO): Volcanic Island, Sheltered Valley, Keldon Megaliths, Energy Field WW 6-0

2. GoblinSmashmaster: Lotus Bloom, Lotus Bloom, Noxious Revival, Barren Glory
You can’t do anything if I exile 2 cards WW 6-0

3. dte: Daze, Underground Sea, Shrieking Affliction, Sleeper Agent LL

4. PJim: Stomping Ground, Orcish Lumberjack, Aluren, Acererak the Archlich
You can’t do anything with 2 cards WW 6-0

5. alphastryk: Phyrexian Tower, Shield Sphere, Sleeper Agent, Sleeper Agent
You can’t do anything with 2 cards. WL 3-3

6. silkster: Swamp, Sleeper Agent, Leyline of Sanctity, Specter's Shriek
Leyline :( DL 1-4

7. maxx!: Leyline of Sanctity, Icatian Store, Karn Liberated, Approach of the Second Sun
Leyline LL 0-6

8. RoosterCocoa: Mountain, Swamp, Raze, Sleeper Agent
Mountain and raze trade with dark ritual/Go Blank/swamp no matter who goes first. And my clock is a few turns faster. WW 6-0.

9. mattamort: Subterranean Hangar, Forbidden orchard, Rakdos Charm, Beast Within
You can’t do anything with only 2 cards WW 6-0

10. jhhdk: Ebon Stronghold, Smallpox, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Shrieking Affliction
Graveyard hate coming in clutch. WL 3-3

12. Wrath of Pie: Scoured Barrens, Karakas, Wheel of Sun and Moon, Tyrant's Choice
You can’t do anything with only 2 cards WW 6-0

13. FTW: Remote Farm, Interplanar Beacon, Kaya, Orzhov Usurper, Davriel, Rogue Shadowmage
You can’t do anything with only 2 cards. WW 6-0

14. Serguei: Swamp, Duress, Sleeper Agent, Leyline of sanctity Leyline DL 1-4


Wow I did much better than expected.
Edit: affliction is not just a black rack.
16D + 2D 8L for 18/78.

[dte]

11. Reeplcheep: Swamp , Go Blank, Shrieking Affliction , Dark Ritual

I expected a bunch of recursive grindy decks, so I wanted gy hate. It also turns out to be decent vs combo.
...
Wow I did much better than expected.

16W 2D 8L for 50/78.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I do not think your deck can win against any 4CB deck.

[Asthereal]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I do not think your deck can win against any 4CB deck.
Oh no. I think you're right. If we just sit there and play no cards, Reep can only make us discard two of them, and Affliction can't kill us.
Adjusting my scores...

[Wrath of Pie]

12. Wrath of Pie: Scoured Barrens, Karakas, Wheel of Sun and Moon, Tyrant's Choice

1. Asthereal (TO): Volcanic Island, Sheltered Valley, Keldon Megaliths, Energy Field WW
2. GoblinSmashmaster: Lotus Bloom, Lotus Bloom, Noxious Revival, Barren Glory LL
3. dte: Daze, Underground Sea, Shrieking Affliction, Sleeper Agent LL
4. PJim: Stomping Ground, Orcish Lumberjack, Aluren, Acererak the Archlich LL
5. alphastryk: Phyrexian Tower, Shield Sphere, Sleeper Agent, Sleeper Agent LL
6. silkster: Swamp, Sleeper Agent, Leyline of Sanctity, Specter's Shriek LL
7. maxx!: Leyline of Sanctity, Icatian Store, Karn Liberated, Approach of the Second Sun WW - I'm guessing that you get all your points because of Leyline of Sanctity.
8. RoosterCocoa: Mountain, Swamp, Raze, Sleeper Agent LL
9. mattamort: Subterranean Hangar, Forbidden orchard, Rakdos Charm, Beast Within LL
10. jhhdk: Ebon Stronghold, Smallpox, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Shrieking Affliction WL
11. Reeplcheep: Swamp , Go Blank, Shrieking Affliction , Dark Ritual DD - I get points for doing nothing. If only actual Magic were that easy.
13. FTW: Remote Farm, Interplanar Beacon, Kaya, Orzhov Usurper, Davriel, Rogue Shadowmage WL
14. Serguei: Swamp, Duress, Sleeper Agent, Leyline of sanctity LL

6w2d = 20 points

Thalia would have been way better, but I couldn't figure out a way to make it work with what we have legal.

[FTW]

13. FTW: Remote Farm, Interplanar Beacon, Kaya, Orzhov Usurper, Davriel, Rogue Shadowmage

1. Asthereal (TO): You hold back Energy Field to protect it, so I can't win, but I can discard the 3rd land to stop your wincon. DD 2-2
2. GoblinSmashmaster: Davriel discards 2 before your turn 4, and Kaya can exile Barren Glory from graveyard. WW 6-0
3. dte: Davriel trades with Daze, then Kaya can exile your other cards and win. WW 6-0
4. PJim: OTP I get T2 Davriel to discard a combo piece or T2 Kaya to exile Lumberjack. OTD you win on turn 2. WL 3-3
5. alphastryk: I take a lot of early damage, but Kaya eventually kills both Agents. WW 6-0
6. silkster: You reveal Leyline. OTD you discard Kaya so I can't answer Sleeper Agent. OTP Davriel races Sleeper Agent if you discard Kaya, but I can't make you discard, so you do nothing and we draw. DL 1-4
7. maxx!: I can't beat Leyline. LL 0-6
8. RoosterCocoa: Raze kills Remote Farm before I can do anything. LL 0-6
9. mattamort: You can't cast Beast Within until your turn 4. By my turn 3, I've already cast both walkers, discarded 2 cards and exiled them. WW 6-0
10. jhhdk: You have this down as WW, probably because of Smallpox. But I don't see how you can actually win. If I just do nothing, Affliction can't do anything, so you have to aggro-Smallpox vs my empty board (I discard Davriel). Then it takes you 4 turns to Smallpox again (Library = Smallpox, Kozilek, Stronghold) which gives me time to play out Kaya to remove Affliction and then gain life. Interplanar Beacon also gains me 1 life to break the Smallpox symmetry. If I do nothing, I think you have to just hold Smallpox to answer my Remote Farm, so we both stare. DD 2-2
11. Reeplcheep: Dark Ritual and discard 2s are still unbanned? Interesting. Your Rack deck is faster than mine, but it also can't win. I do nothing. DD 2-2
12. Wrath of Pie: OTP T2 Davriel discards one of the two combo pieces. From there you can't win. OTD you play Wheel first, so I can't interact with your wincon and yours is faster. WL 3-3
14. Serguei: You reveal Leyline. OTD you discard Kaya so I can't answer Sleeper Agent. OTP Davriel races Sleeper Agent if you discard Kaya, but I can't make you discard, so you do nothing and we draw. DL 1-4

38 points (10 wins, 8 draws, 8 loss)

My other deck was dte's fav: Sunscorched Desert, Tel-Jilad Stylus, Dimir Aqueduct, Reality Acid

I expected that to see more play. I thought Kaya + Davriel would be good against Stylus, and that Kaya's -1 would also be good against Shrieking Affliction and Sleeper Agent (which did end up seeing a lot of play). I also expected slower combos like Barren Glory, but missed that Aluren combo was possible on turn 2.

I get wrecked by Leyline, Energy Field, and LD. In this meta Stylus would have done a lot better. (43+ pts?)

[Serguei]

13. FTW: Remote Farm, Interplanar Beacon, Kaya, Orzhov Usurper, Davriel, Rogue Shadowmage


6. silkster: You reveal Leyline and T1 discard my Kaya. Then I can't answer Sleeper Agent or damage you with Davriel, so you win. LL 0-6
14. Serguei: Like silkster, you can Duress Kaya and then I can't interact with Sleeper Agent. LL 0-6


For me we cannot win the race against davriel when we are OTD
T1 remote
T1 swamp duress like taking kaya
T2 interplanar Davriel you go to 21. Discard if LL is not in play, nothing otherwise but we have only sleeper agent in hand
T2 we are going to 18 because only 1 card in hand Davriel does not target. so you will win the race even if we play agent

So we have to only land LL and do not play anything else to force the draw

[Serguei]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I do not think your deck can win against any 4CB deck.

I agree.
At best you can force the draw.

[dte]

FTW vs Asthereal, isn't it 4-1 for Asthereal?
OTP A can play its three lands and win from there, discarding field (yes, bad card).

[alphastryk]

Let's see how this went, Sleeper Agent seemed like the meta call to me as a creature that's better when creatures can't attack but it might have been too obvious. Tower beats the Sleeper Agent mirror as well as letting me double up on Agents turn 1, but no disruption is a risk.

1. Asthereal (TO): Volcanic Island, Sheltered Valley, Keldon Megaliths, Energy Field
Sleeper Agent > Energy Field. WW

6-0

2. GoblinSmashmaster: Lotus Bloom, Lotus Bloom, Noxious Revival, Barren Glory
Sleeper Agent turns off Barren Glory. WW

6-0

3. dte: Daze, Underground Sea, Shrieking Affliction, Sleeper Agent
I really thought Affliction was already banned. OTP I can double Agent and Tower beats your Agent, so I win the race. OTD Daze slows me down a turn and only lets me play out a single Agent which isn't enough, but I can play Tower and stare to force a draw. WD

4-1

4. PJim: Stomping Ground, Orcish Lumberjack, Aluren, Acererak the Archlich
You have a powerful fast combo and I have no disruption. LL

0-6

5. alphastryk: Phyrexian Tower, Shield Sphere, Sleeper Agent, Sleeper Agent
This is me

6. silkster: Swamp, Sleeper Agent, Leyline of Sanctity, Specter's Shriek
Leyline stops my Sleeper Agents, but Tower stops yours and I will decline to play anything else to force the draw. DD

2-2

7. maxx!: Leyline of Sanctity, Icatian Store, Karn Liberated, Approach of the Second Sun
Can't beat Leyline. LL

0-6

8. RoosterCocoa: Mountain, Swamp, Raze, Sleeper Agent
2 Agents > 1 Agent. WW

6-0

9. mattamort: Subterranean Hangar, Forbidden orchard, Rakdos Charm, Beast Within
Nice design to beat Leyline, but too slow to beat double Agent, even if you Beast Within one of them. WW

6-0

10. jhhdk: Ebon Stronghold, Smallpox, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Shrieking Affliction
Smallpox is surprisingly good tech against Sleeper Agents. LL

0-6

11. Reeplcheep: Swamp , Go Blank, Shrieking Affliction , Dark Ritual
OTP I jam double Agent and race, OTD if you Go Blank me I do nothing else and we draw. WD

4-1

12. Wrath of Pie: Scoured Barrens, Karakas, Wheel of Sun and Moon, Tyrant's Choice
My 4 damage per turn clock starts 2 turns earlier, and you can't get rid of the Agents. WW

6-0

13. FTW: Remote Farm, Interplanar Beacon, Kaya, Orzhov Ursurper, Davriel, Rogue Shadowmage
Can't beat Kaya. LL

0-6

14. Serguei: Swamp, Duress, Sleeper Agent, Leyline of sanctity
I can't beat Leyline but you can't beat Tower. DD

2-2

Total: 42 points

[FTW]

For me we cannot win the race against davriel when we are OTD
T1 remote
T1 swamp duress like taking kaya
T2 interplanar Davriel you go to 21. Discard if LL is not in play, nothing otherwise but we have only sleeper agent in hand
T2 we are going to 18 because only 1 card in hand Davriel does not target. so you will win the race even if we play agent

So we have to only land LL and do not play anything else to force the draw

Oh interesting. I forgot Davriel's damage does not target, so it gets around Leyline. I cannot make you discard, but it can damage you if you play things.

OTD I could race T2 Sleeper Agent (Beacon gains 1 life), but you can play T1 Agent and still discard Kaya on T2, winning the race.

[FTW]

FTW vs Asthereal, isn't it 4-1 for Asthereal?
OTP A can play its three lands and win from there, discarding field (yes, bad card).

Davriel deals 2 per turn. Asthereal's deck can gain 1 and deal 1 per turn. That's about an equal clock, but I break the symmetry with Interplanar Beacon's +2 life and by eventually activating Kaya's -5 for X=1 (exile Energy Field from GY), so I should win this race. But I can't beat Energy Field.

[dte]

Davriel deals 2 per turn. Asthereal's deck can gain 1 and deal 1 per turn. That's about an equal clock, but I break the symmetry with Interplanar Beacon's +2 life and by eventually activating Kaya's -5 for X=1 (exile Energy Field from GY), so I should win this race. But I can't beat Energy Field.

I thought that megalithic was errated to "any target".
So it kills Davriel?

[RoosterCocoa]

8. RoosterCocoa: Mountain, Swamp, Raze, Sleeper Agent

1. Asthereal (TO): Volcanic Island, Sheltered Valley, Keldon Megaliths, Energy Field
I Raze your Volcanic Island if you ever play it. You cannot use Megaliths or play Energy Field without the Volcanic Island, and Raze makes you sacrifice Energy Field if you had played it, so I win. WW

2. GoblinSmashmaster: Lotus Bloom, Lotus Bloom, Noxious Revival, Barren Glory
Since I give you control of Sleeper Agent, Barren Glory doesn't work. You have no way to remove Sleeper Agent so I win. WW

3. dte: Daze, Underground Sea, Shrieking Affliction, Sleeper Agent
Whoever plays Sleeper Agent first wins the race. WL

4. PJim: Stomping Ground, Orcish Lumberjack, Aluren, Acererak the Archlich
I Raze your Stomping Ground the turn after you play it, so you can only play Lumberjack. WW

5. alphastryk: Phyrexian Tower, Shield Sphere, Sleeper Agent, Sleeper Agent
I can't beat Phyrexian Tower or stop you from playing your Sleeper Agents. LL

6. silkster: Swamp, Sleeper Agent, Leyline of Sanctity, Specter's Shriek
I can't beat Leyline of Sanctity or stop you from playing your Sleeper Agent. LL

7. maxx!: Leyline of Sanctity, Icatian Store, Karn Liberated, Approach of the Second Sun
I can't win against Leyline of Sanctity, but Raze your Icatian Store before you can play a win condition. DD

9. mattamort: Subterranean Hangar, Forbidden orchard, Rakdos Charm, Beast Within
I Raze your Subterranean Hangar, and you can't play anything. WW

10. jhhdk: Ebon Stronghold, Smallpox, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Shrieking Affliction
Ebon Stronghold enters tapped, so I Raze it before you can play anything. WW

11. Reeplcheep: Swamp , Go Blank, Shrieking Affliction , Dark Ritual
Shrieking Affliction outraces Sleeper Agent, so I don't play anything and we draw. DD

12. Wrath of Pie: Scoured Barrens, Karakas, Wheel of Sun and Moon, Tyrant's Choice
I Raze Scoured Barrens so you can't play anything. WW

13. FTW: Remote Farm, Interplanar Beacon, Kaya, Orzhov Usurper, Davriel, Rogue Shadowmage
I Raze Remote Farm so you can't play anything. WW

14. Serguei: Swamp, Duress, Sleeper Agent, Leyline of sanctity
I can't beat Leyline of Sanctity or stop you from playing your Sleeper Agent. LL

15W 4D 7L = 49

I predicted that most people would have threats they couldn't play on turn 1 and it looks like I got that mostly correct, though I forgot about Leyline of Sanctity so I might have done better by finding a win condition that didn't target a player.

[maxx!]

maxx!: Leyline of Sanctity, Icatian Store, Karn Liberated, Approach of the Second Sun

1. Asthereal (TO): Volcanic Island, Sheltered Valley, Keldon Megaliths, Energy Field
Megaliths can't race AotSS, and Karn can take your whole deck given enough time. 6-0

2. GoblinSmashmaster: Lotus Bloom, Lotus Bloom, Noxious Revival, Barren Glory
Nice deck. Embarrassed that it didn't cross my mind for this round. You're way faster. 0-6

3. dte: Daze, Underground Sea, Shrieking Affliction, Sleeper Agent
Leyline saves me from the Agent, so I can take as long as I need to build up mana for a Daze-proof play. 6-0

4. PJim: Stomping Ground, Orcish Lumberjack, Aluren, Acererak the Archlich
I literally have no idea what the first paragraph on Acererak means (it reads like an Un-set), but from the other posts in this thread it seems like you have a turn 2 combo that doesn't target. 0-6

5. alphastryk: Phyrexian Tower, Shield Sphere, Sleeper Agent, Sleeper Agent
Leyline protects me from the Agents, and you can't interact with my deck. 6-0

6. silkster: Swamp, Sleeper Agent, Leyline of Sanctity, Specter's Shriek
Leyline saves me from both your black cards, and my win condition gets around your Leyline. 6-0

7. maxx!: Leyline of Sanctity, Icatian Store, Karn Liberated, Approach of the Second Sun
This is me :]

8. RoosterCocoa: Mountain, Swamp, Raze, Sleeper Agent
Raze is brutal, but Agent can't target me, so nobody ever does anything. 2-2

9. mattamort: Subterranean Hangar, Forbidden orchard, Rakdos Charm, Beast Within
The first deck that I thought of for this round was a Forbidden Orchard + Rakdos Charm deck, but I was afraid of Leyline of Sanctity (Forbidden Orchard's trigger targets). Beast Within can kill my Leyline, but then you can't kill me before I win. You can Beast Within my land, though, and then nobody can win. I think that's how this matchup ends. 2-2

10. jhhdk: Ebon Stronghold, Smallpox, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Shrieking Affliction
If I play my land, you can Smallpox me before I can cast anything, and then you get all your stuff back. If I do nothing, you play Shrieking Affliction and then loop Smallpox until I have 1 card in hand and start dying to Affliction. Really nice deck. 0-6

11. Reeplcheep: Swamp , Go Blank, Shrieking Affliction , Dark Ritual
Leyline stops Go Blank, and you can't interact with me. 6-0

12. Wrath of Pie: Scoured Barrens, Karakas, Wheel of Sun and Moon, Tyrant's Choice
Tyrant's Choice is a faster non-targeting kill than I expected. 0-6

13. FTW: Remote Farm, Interplanar Beacon, Kaya, Orzhov Usurper, Davriel, Rogue Shadowmage
Davriel can't target me, so Kaya can't exile anything. 6-0

14. Serguei: Swamp, Duress, Sleeper Agent, Leyline of sanctity
Duress and Sleeper Agent are blanks, and my win condition gets around Leyline. 6-0

6+0+6+0+6+6+2+2+0+6+0+6+6 = 46

Karn was a huge dud. I think Generous Gift would've net me 9 more points (WL vs Gobbo and WW vs WoP). Leyline was not as popular as I thought it would be.

[FTW]

I thought that megalithic was errated to "any target".
So it kills Davriel?

Oh interesting. According to Gatherer it is.

The text of Keldon Megaliths says "target creature or player", so I assumed it couldn't. That's a surprising functional errata. When they changed the rule about planeswalker burn damage, I thought they were sticking to the original card texts (for example Earthquake damage cannot hit a planeswalker anymore, but Lightning Bolt still can because the original text was "any target"). Looks like they didn't treat all cards the same.

[jhhdk]

8. RoosterCocoa: Mountain, Swamp, Raze, Sleeper Agent
...
10. jhhdk: Ebon Stronghold, Smallpox, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Shrieking Affliction
Ebon Stronghold enters tapped, so I Raze it before you can play anything. WW
...

Correct, Somehow managed to convince myself CMC of Raze was 2. I must have been thinking of Boom.
Will adjust my results.

[dte]

Oh interesting. According to Gatherer it is.

The text of Keldon Megaliths says "target creature or player", so I assumed it couldn't. That's a surprising functional errata. When they changed the rule about planeswalker burn damage, I thought they were sticking to the original card texts (for example Earthquake damage cannot hit a planeswalker anymore, but Lightning Bolt still can because the original text was "any target"). Looks like they didn't treat all cards the same.

I understood that anything before the rule change with "creature or player" became "any target". It would have been messy to have to know all printings of a cards. If I got it correctly, the change was mostly for cards like lava spike, which only targeted players originally, or for cards like earthquake, which do not target. For a while, these could kill PW, but cannot anymore.

That being lenghtly said, I am not sure at all this is correct ;)

[Asthereal]

Oh interesting. According to Gatherer it is.

The text of Keldon Megaliths says "target creature or player", so I assumed it couldn't. That's a surprising functional errata. When they changed the rule about planeswalker burn damage, I thought they were sticking to the original card texts (for example Earthquake damage cannot hit a planeswalker anymore, but Lightning Bolt still can because the original text was "any target"). Looks like they didn't treat all cards the same.
So what does this mean for our match?
On the draw I don't see it making a difference, as you can make me discard two cards before I get to play my third land, so the line where I discard a land and cast Energy Field is my only line.
On the play, though, I could discard Energy Field and play my third land. From there I can kill Davriel, leaving you with just Kaya, who can make me lose one life and gain you one every 6 turns. Megaliths can beat that.
Also, Kaya can't kill Energy Field, so you actually have to make me discard it and then exile it in order for Kaya to even have anything to do at all. So I guess I would win on the play, enidng our match in 4-1 for me?

[Asthereal]

No results yet from silk, matta and gobbo. Silk seems to win the head-to-heads because of Shriek, and (EDIT) matta stops gobbo's Glory by giving him guys for free, so that's what I'll use for bannings.
This leads to these preliminary standings for round 10:
1. Serguei: 54 - 4,2
2. silkster: 52 - 4
3. RoosterCocoa: 49 - 3,8
4. dte: 48 - 3,7
5. maxx!: 46 - 3,5
6. PJim: 44 - 3,4
7. jhhdk: 44 - 3,4
8. alphastryk: 42 - 3,2
9. FTW: 37 - 2,8
10. GoblinSmashmaster: 26 - 2
11. mattamort: 22 - 1,7
12. Wrath of Pie: 20 - 1,5
13. Reeplcheep: 18 - 1,4
14. Asthereal (TO): 6 - 0,5

Which in turn leads to these bannings:
Duress
Leyline of Sanctity
Raze
Sleeper Agent
Specter's Shriek

Standings for the season, assuming scores for round 10 are good, are as follows:
1. Serguei: 36,4
2. dte: 35,6
3. silkster: 34,4
4. FTW: 32,9
5. PJim: 32,8
6. mattamort: 32,4
7. maxx!: 31,6
8. GoblinSmashmaster: 29,7
9. alphastryk: 29,8
10. Tylert: 29,6
11. RoosterCocoa: 26
12. Reeplcheep: 21,2
13. Wrath of Pie: 20,9
14. Asthereal (TO): 18,1
15. Phasmoid: 17,1
16. jhhdk: 16,7
17. H: 10
18. shiftyhomunculus: 3,1

So Serguei consolidates the lead with a strong round. We find dte and silk in pursuit.
Tylert sitting out two rounds sees him dropping down to the middle of the pack, unfortunately. I really thought he'd take the crown this season.

Expect next round to open later today.


EDIT: Reep's deck not being able to defeat the goldfish's 4x Island 4CB pilus screwed up the original text of this post quite a bit. The above is now current (as of Sept 6th, 18:40 CET).

[dte]

Orchard should definitely help matta to stop gobbo's glory.

[Asthereal]

Orchard should definitely help matta to stop gobbo's glory.
Oooh that's a good one. Thanks for pointing this out! Changing scores now...

[Asthereal]

Thankfully, dte's comment doesn't affect bannings. :smile:
Silk, matta and gobbo, please check your scores still, but I'm locking in the bannings as shown above, so we can get round 11 going:


ROUND 11 OF SEASON 10: DEVIANT LEGACY BANNATHON has started.

This round we play Sudden Death: After 10 turns (from both players), the player with the highest life total wins the game. If life totals are equal, the game ends in a draw.

I have PM'ed myself my deck for round 11, so you can start sending me your decks.

DEADLINE: Wednesday the 8th of September at 11:00AM Central European Time.
(That's my time zone. Pacific Time it'll probably be something like Tuesday night a bit past midnight, so keep that in mind.)

PLEASE NOTE:
The way you send your deck to me matters. Please send it in the way described below, so it doesn't cost me an hour of editing before I can post all the decks.
Please send your deck as follows: Mountain, Quicksand, Desert, Suq'Ata Lancer.
So with card tags around each card, and not above eachother, and with your Username and 4CB S10R11 in the topic.
Don't forget to keep an eye on the banned list. You'll find it in the second post (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1064264&viewfull=1#post1064264) of the thread, or in our Google Spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1M2zwN9zxSe7IwiJmZH8eGXeNpEjqspR_SWT5d3Hqqac/edit?usp=sharing).

After the deadline has passed, I will post all decks on the forum here, and you can start puzzling out your scores.
If you have any questions, please read the first two posts of this thread first. If you can't find the answer there, drop a message here. We'll answer a.s.a.p.

Happy deck building! :smile:

[PJim]

Just to be 100% clear - it's still possible to win the game by reducing your opponent to 0 life (or with any other game winning card) before the ten turns have elapsed, right?

[Asthereal]

Just to be 100% clear - it's still possible to win the game by reducing your opponent to 0 life (or with any other game winning card) before the ten turns have elapsed, right?
Yes. If you win before turn 10 fully ends, you just win. It's just that the game doesn't go longer than that.

[mattamort]

No results yet from silk, matta and gobbo. Silk seems to win the head-to-heads because of Shriek, and I don't see how matta stops gobbo's Glory, so that's what I'll use for bannings.
This leads to these preliminary standings for round 10:
1. Serguei: 54 - 4,2
2. Silkster: 52 - 4
3. Reeplcheep: 50 - 3,8
4. RoosterCocoa: 49 - 3,8
5. dte: 48 - 3,7
6. maxx!: 46 - 3,5
7. PJim: 44 - 3,4
8. jhhdk: 43 - 3,3
9. alphastryk: 42 - 3,2
10. FTW: 37 - 2,8
11. GoblinSmashmaster: 24 - 1,8
12. Wrath of Pie: 20 - 1,5
12. mattamort: 20 - 1,5
14. Asthereal (TO): 6 - 0,5

Which in turn leads to these bannings:
Dark Ritual
Duress
Go Blank
Leyline of Sanctity
Shrieking Affliction
Sleeper Agent
Specter's Shriek

Standings for the season, assuming scores for round 10 are good, are as follows:
1. Serguei: 36,4
2. dte: 35,6
3. silkster: 34,4
4. FTW: 32,9
5. PJim: 32,8
6. mattamort: 32,2
7. maxx!: 31,6
8. alphastryk: 29,8
9. Tylert: 29,6
10. GoblinSmashmaster: 29,5
11. RoosterCocoa: 26
12. Reeplcheep: 23,6
13. Wrath of Pie: 20,9
14. Asthereal (TO): 18,1
15. Phasmoid: 17,1
16. jhhdk: 16,6
17. H: 10
18. shiftyhomunculus: 3,1

So Serguei consolidates the lead with a strong round. We find dte and silk in pursuit.
Tylert sitting out two rounds sees him dropping down to the middle of the pack, unfortunately. I really thought he'd take the crown this season.

Expect next round to open later today.

It was raised by dte, but I am not sure to understand how Reeplcheep forces the win. At best, he gets a draw since opponent just had to keep their 2 remaining cards in hand to ignore Shrieking Affliction.

[Serguei]

No results yet from silk, matta and gobbo. Silk seems to win the head-to-heads because of Shriek, and I don't see how matta stops gobbo's Glory, so that's what I'll use for bannings.
This leads to these preliminary standings for round 10:
1. Serguei: 54 - 4,2
2. Silkster: 52 - 4
3. Reeplcheep: 50 - 3,8
4. RoosterCocoa: 49 - 3,8
5. dte: 48 - 3,7
6. maxx!: 46 - 3,5
7. PJim: 44 - 3,4
8. jhhdk: 43 - 3,3
9. alphastryk: 42 - 3,2
10. FTW: 37 - 2,8
11. GoblinSmashmaster: 24 - 1,8
12. Wrath of Pie: 20 - 1,5
12. mattamort: 20 - 1,5
14. Asthereal (TO): 6 - 0,5

Which in turn leads to these bannings:
Dark Ritual
Duress
Go Blank
Leyline of Sanctity
Shrieking Affliction
Sleeper Agent
Specter's Shriek

Standings for the season, assuming scores for round 10 are good, are as follows:
1. Serguei: 36,4
2. dte: 35,6
3. silkster: 34,4
4. FTW: 32,9
5. PJim: 32,8
6. mattamort: 32,2
7. maxx!: 31,6
8. alphastryk: 29,8
9. Tylert: 29,6
10. GoblinSmashmaster: 29,5
11. RoosterCocoa: 26
12. Reeplcheep: 23,6
13. Wrath of Pie: 20,9
14. Asthereal (TO): 18,1
15. Phasmoid: 17,1
16. jhhdk: 16,6
17. H: 10
18. shiftyhomunculus: 3,1

So Serguei consolidates the lead with a strong round. We find dte and silk in pursuit.
Tylert sitting out two rounds sees him dropping down to the middle of the pack, unfortunately. I really thought he'd take the crown this season.

Expect next round to open later today.

Hello I think there is a problem with the banned list and results of 3. Reeplcheep: 50 - 3,8

AS already spotted by dte, Reelcheep cannot win a single game of 4CB. At best he can force the draw, because Go blank discards only 2 cards, and affliction is active if opponent has 1 or fewer card in hand. So unless my math are wrong 4 cards in openning hand minus 2 from go blank equals 2.
So if an opponent of reelcheep cannot win he just needs not to play anything and sits for the draw

[Asthereal]

Hello I think there is a problem with the banned list and results of 3. Reeplcheep: 50 - 3,8

AS already spotted by dte, Reelcheep cannot win a single game of 4CB. At best he can force the draw, because Go blank discards only 2 cards, and affliction is active if opponent has 1 or fewer card in hand. So unless my math are wrong 4 cards in openning hand minus 2 from go blank equals 2.
So if an opponent of reelcheep cannot win he just needs not to play anything and sits for the draw
Hmm, Reep never acknowledged this, and I forgot about it afterwards.
But it's correct: Reep's deck can't win if the opponent does nothing.

I'll change scores and bannings in a minute.

EDIT: Aaaaand my deck isn't legal anymore. :tongue:

[Asthereal]

No results yet from silk, matta and gobbo. Silk seems to win the head-to-heads because of Shriek, and (EDIT) matta stops gobbo's Glory by giving him guys for free, so that's what I'll use for bannings.
This leads to these preliminary standings for round 10:
1. Serguei: 54 - 4,2
2. silkster: 52 - 4
3. RoosterCocoa: 49 - 3,8
4. dte: 48 - 3,7
5. maxx!: 46 - 3,5
6. PJim: 44 - 3,4
7. jhhdk: 44 - 3,4
8. alphastryk: 42 - 3,2
9. FTW: 37 - 2,8
10. GoblinSmashmaster: 26 - 2
11. mattamort: 22 - 1,7
12. Wrath of Pie: 20 - 1,5
13. Reeplcheep: 18 - 1,4
14. Asthereal (TO): 6 - 0,5

Which in turn leads to these bannings:
Duress
Leyline of Sanctity
Raze
Sleeper Agent
Specter's Shriek

Standings for the season, assuming scores for round 10 are good, are as follows:
1. Serguei: 36,4
2. dte: 35,6
3. silkster: 34,4
4. FTW: 32,9
5. PJim: 32,8
6. mattamort: 32,4
7. maxx!: 31,6
8. GoblinSmashmaster: 29,7
9. alphastryk: 29,8
10. Tylert: 29,6
11. RoosterCocoa: 26
12. Reeplcheep: 21,2
13. Wrath of Pie: 20,9
14. Asthereal (TO): 18,1
15. Phasmoid: 17,1
16. jhhdk: 16,7
17. H: 10
18. shiftyhomunculus: 3,1

So Serguei consolidates the lead with a strong round. We find dte and silk in pursuit.
Tylert sitting out two rounds sees him dropping down to the middle of the pack, unfortunately. I really thought he'd take the crown this season.

Expect next round to open later today.
This post is updated, as are the first posts and the Google spreadsheet.



Thankfully, dte's comment doesn't affect bannings. :smile:
Silk, matta and gobbo, please check your scores still, but I'm locking in the bannings as shown above, so we can get round 11 going:


ROUND 11 OF SEASON 10: DEVIANT LEGACY BANNATHON has started.

This round we play Sudden Death: After 10 turns (from both players), the player with the highest life total wins the game. If life totals are equal, the game ends in a draw.

I have PM'ed myself my deck for round 11, so you can start sending me your decks.

DEADLINE: Wednesday the 8th of September at 11:00AM Central European Time.
(That's my time zone. Pacific Time it'll probably be something like Tuesday night a bit past midnight, so keep that in mind.)

PLEASE NOTE:
The way you send your deck to me matters. Please send it in the way described below, so it doesn't cost me an hour of editing before I can post all the decks.
Please send your deck as follows: Mountain, Quicksand, Desert, Suq'Ata Lancer.
So with card tags around each card, and not above eachother, and with your Username and 4CB S10R11 in the topic.
Don't forget to keep an eye on the banned list. You'll find it in the second post (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1064264&viewfull=1#post1064264) of the thread, or in our Google Spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1M2zwN9zxSe7IwiJmZH8eGXeNpEjqspR_SWT5d3Hqqac/edit?usp=sharing).

After the deadline has passed, I will post all decks on the forum here, and you can start puzzling out your scores.
If you have any questions, please read the first two posts of this thread first. If you can't find the answer there, drop a message here. We'll answer a.s.a.p.

Happy deck building! :smile:
And I have re-opened the round. Though my own deck now sucks instead of rules, because I had literally no time at all to come up with something cool.
Well... I did come up with something cool. But it's also bad. Very bad.

[silkster]

Me. silkster: Swamp, Sleeper Agent, Leyline of Sanctity, Specter's Shriek

1. Asthereal (TO): Volcanic Island, Sheltered Valley, Keldon Megaliths, Energy Field
WD. I'm two turns too slow on the draw, so I just go shields up.
When I'm on the draw, I have to exile Energy Field on my turn 1. But that means that I lose one of my other cards, and I'm a little behind on the race, so instead I go for a draw.

2. GoblinSmashmaster: Lotus Bloom, Lotus Bloom, Noxious Revival, Barren Glory
WW. This is the reason I didn't run Duress.

3. dte: Daze, Underground Sea, Shrieking Affliction, Sleeper Agent
WD.
On the play, I start with Swamp->Sleeper Agent, and your non-Agent cards don't interact so I win the race by half a turn cycle. Same as dte versus Serguei.
The fact that dte has these two matches listed with different results makes me think I'm going crazy, but we're not planning to cast Daze/Specter's Shriek, so they should be the same result.

4. PJim: Stomping Ground, Orcish Lumberjack, Aluren, Acererak the Archlich
WW

5. alphastryk: Phyrexian Tower, Shield Sphere, Sleeper Agent, Sleeper Agent
DD. I really didn't expect Sleeper Agent to be so prevalent, but I think you did and Phyrexian Tower is great tech!

7. maxx!: Leyline of Sanctity, Icatian Store, Karn Liberated, Approach of the Second Sun
LL. I did not prepare for the Sanctity mirror.

8. RoosterCocoa: Mountain, Swamp, Raze, Sleeper Agent
WW.

9. mattamort: Subterranean Hangar, Forbidden orchard, Rakdos Charm, Beast Within
WW. Beast Within is nice, so I take it, and then race.

10. jhhdk: Ebon Stronghold, Smallpox, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Shrieking Affliction
DD. I can't stop both Affliction and Smallpox loop, so I take Smallpox and sit with 2 cards in hand.

11. Reeplcheep: Swamp , Go Blank, Shrieking Affliction , Dark Ritual
WD.

12. Wrath of Pie: Scoured Barrens, Karakas, Wheel of Sun and Moon, Tyrant's Choice
WW.

13. FTW: Remote Farm, Interplanar Beacon, Kaya, Orzhov Usurper, Davriel, Rogue Shadowmage
WD. On the play, I lead on Agent and then take Kaya and race. On the draw, I'm a turn to slow to race Davriel, but I can just hide behind Leyline (optionally exiling Davriel).

14. Serguei: Swamp, Duress, Sleeper Agent, Leyline of sanctity
DD. I haven't looked at the results yet and I'm very curious if my exile clause was worth the mutual discard.

14W, 10D, 2L = 52 points. Now to see what the googlesheet says.... Oooh, a few discrepencies. Going to add explanations in italics.

How does Serguei 6-0 the Barren Glory deck? Noxious Revival is very specifically the anti-Duress card, Barren Glory doesn't target, and it's a faster clock than Sleeper Agent.

A little late to ask, but: 10 turns from both players means 10 turns total, so each player gets 5 turns if no extra turns are taken. That's how I intended it when I wrote it, but what I intended doesn't actually matter (and has been changed in a few other rounds). Is this right?

[Serguei]

How does Serguei 6-0 the Barren Glory deck? Noxious Revival is very specifically the anti-Duress card, Barren Glory doesn't target, and it's a faster clock than Sleeper Agent.


Easy : I just give him a sleeper agent and he cannot win with barren glory anymore.

[Serguei]

Thankfully, dte's comment doesn't affect bannings. :smile:
Silk, matta and gobbo, please check your scores still, but I'm locking in the bannings as shown above, so we can get round 11 going:


ROUND 11 OF SEASON 10: DEVIANT LEGACY BANNATHON has started.

This round we play Sudden Death: After 10 turns (from both players), the player with the highest life total wins the game. If life totals are equal, the game ends in a draw.

I have PM'ed myself my deck for round 11, so you can start sending me your decks.

DEADLINE: Wednesday the 8th of September at 11:00AM Central European Time.
(That's my time zone. Pacific Time it'll probably be something like Tuesday night a bit past midnight, so keep that in mind.)

PLEASE NOTE:
The way you send your deck to me matters. Please send it in the way described below, so it doesn't cost me an hour of editing before I can post all the decks.
Please send your deck as follows: Mountain, Quicksand, Desert, Suq'Ata Lancer.
So with card tags around each card, and not above eachother, and with your Username and 4CB S10R11 in the topic.
Don't forget to keep an eye on the banned list. You'll find it in the second post (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1064264&viewfull=1#post1064264) of the thread, or in our Google Spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1M2zwN9zxSe7IwiJmZH8eGXeNpEjqspR_SWT5d3Hqqac/edit?usp=sharing).

After the deadline has passed, I will post all decks on the forum here, and you can start puzzling out your scores.
If you have any questions, please read the first two posts of this thread first. If you can't find the answer there, drop a message here. We'll answer a.s.a.p.

Happy deck building! :smile:


Stupid question : Can we loose or win the game before the end of the 10th turn?

[silkster]

Easy : I just give him a sleeper agent and he cannot win with barren glory anymore.

LOL. Stupid Barren Glory. I've gotten that card wrong a few times before and it keeps happening.

[dte]

Silk is definitely 4-1 against me, it was my costly mistake not to realise that my deck loses to any agent deck OTD.

[Asthereal]

Stupid question : Can we loose or win the game before the end of the 10th turn?
Sooo that's a busy day. Anyway, yes you can win before. The game just ends after 10 turns each. PJim asked this before, but that's quite a while back so you may have missed it.

Also, the deadline has long passed, but I'm busy. And I'm missing entries from Reep and FTW. Perhaps also others, but these caught my eye in the minute I have right now.
I'll give you guys a bit more time to send me your entries.
And myself to set everything up to post decks. Which I hopefully get to do tonight somewhere. So don't wait too long.

[Asthereal]

Me. silkster: Swamp, Sleeper Agent, Leyline of Sanctity, Specter's Shriek

1. Asthereal (TO): Volcanic Island, Sheltered Valley, Keldon Megaliths, Energy Field
WD. I'm two turns too slow on the draw, so I just go shields up.
When I'm on the draw, I have to exile Energy Field on my turn 1. But that means that I lose one of my other cards, and I'm a little behind on the race, so instead I go for a draw.
Actually, you just drop Leyline to protect against Megaliths, and give me Agent on your turn one.
In my design I forgot about the fact that I will be controlling Agent, so Energy Field doesn't protect against it.
So I felt free to put you back to 6 points against me. :wink:

(PS. My deck would have been so much better with Phyrexian Tower over Valley.....)

Also, no more entries, and I finally have some time, so I'll be posting decks with the hour.
If someone still wants to send me something, you have until I finish making coffee.

[Asthereal]

DECKS FOR ROUND 11 OF SEASON 10: Deviant Legacy Bannathon

This round we play Sudden Death: After 10 turns (from both players), the player with the highest life total wins the game. If life totals are equal, the game ends in a draw.

The entries:
1. Asthereal (TO): Chrome Mox, Chancellor of the Dross, Divest, Maze of Ith
2. PJim: Tropical Island, Mutavault, Mayor of Avabruck, Daze
3. RoosterCocoa: Swamp, Divest, Witch's Oven, Cauldron Familiar
4. mattamort: Chancellor of the dross, Chancellor of the dross, Chancellor of the dross, Soul spike
5. Serguei: Chancellor of the Dross; Chancellor of the Dross; Chancellor of the Dross; Soul Spike
6. alphastryk: Forest, Old-Growth Dryads, Old-Growth Dryads, Old-Growth Dryads
7. dte: chancellor of the dross, chancellor of the dross, chancellor of the dross, soul spike
8. Wrath of Pie: Swamp, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Lodestone Golem
9. jhhdk: Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Mishra's Factory, Smallpox, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
10. maxx!: Bazaar of Baghdad, Basking Rootwalla, Basking Rootwalla, Vengevine
11. silkster: Tropical Island, Old-Growth Dryads, Daze, Leyline of Punishment
12. GoblinSmashmaster: Volcanic Island, Goblin Lackey, Daze, Morophon, the Boundless

Please post your scores and cross-check with the opponents.
You can also enter your scores in the Google Spreadsheet for the season which you can find here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1M2zwN9zxSe7IwiJmZH8eGXeNpEjqspR_SWT5d3Hqqac/edit?usp=sharing

[dte]

As far as I see it, we do 2-2 with each other with Serguei and matta, lose 0-6 to PJim, and beat everything else 6-0 :)

[Asthereal]

Asthereal's scores for round I spent 5 minutes on this and it'll show.

1. Asthereal (TO): Chrome Mox, Chancellor of the Dross, Divest, Maze of Ith <-me
2. PJim: Tropical Island, Mutavault, Mayor of Avabruck, Daze WL 3-3
OTP Divest your Mayor, Maze stops Muta and the Dross life swing wins it. OTD you Daze my Divest and Mayor is fast enough.
3. RoosterCocoa: Swamp, Divest, Witch's Oven, Cauldron Familiar WL 3-3 Whoever Divests gets the win.
4. mattamort: Chancellor of the dross, Chancellor of the dross, Chancellor of the dross, Soul spike LL 0-6
5. Serguei: Chancellor of the Dross; Chancellor of the Dross; Chancellor of the Dross; Soul Spike LL 0-6
6. alphastryk: Forest, Old-Growth Dryads, Old-Growth Dryads, Old-Growth Dryads LL 0-6
7. dte: chancellor of the dross, chancellor of the dross, chancellor of the dross, soul spike LL 0-6
8. Wrath of Pie: Swamp, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Lodestone Golem WW 6-0
9. jhhdk: Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Mishra's Factory, Smallpox, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth LL 0-6
10. maxx!: Bazaar of Baghdad, Basking Rootwalla, Basking Rootwalla, Vengevine LL 0-6
11. silkster: Tropical Island, Old-Growth Dryads, Daze, Leyline of Punishment WW 6-0
12. GoblinSmashmaster: Volcanic Island, Goblin Lackey, Daze, Morophon, the Boundless WW 6-0

Total: 24 points.

I thought Dross was a bad idea, but I didn't have time for a better one. Turns out everybody liked the idea despite it losing to the Dryads.
So I expected not too many people playing either 3x Dryad or no wincon.dec (both rather vulnerable) and hoped to capitalize with discard and Maze of Ith.
Did not work too well, but that was to be expected of a 5 minute deck.

[PJim]

2. PJim: Tropical Island, Mutavault, Mayor of Avabruck, Daze

vs

1. Asthereal (TO): Chrome Mox, Chancellor of the Dross, Divest, Maze of Ith / 3-3, Divest taking Mayor wins, Dazing Divest and landing Mayor wins.
3. RoosterCocoa: Swamp, Divest, Witch's Oven, Cauldron Familiar / 6-0, OTP is easy. OTD, Divest taking Mayor loses to Dazing Familiar and winning with Mutavault. Divesting Daze or playing Familiar just loses to Mayor.
4. mattamort: Chancellor of the dross, Chancellor of the dross, Chancellor of the dross, Soul spike / 6-0, Daze Spike, go wide.
5. Serguei: Chancellor of the Dross; Chancellor of the Dross; Chancellor of the Dross; Soul Spike / 6-0, Daze Spike, go wide.
6. alphastryk: Forest, Old-Growth Dryads, Old-Growth Dryads, Old-Growth Dryads / 6-0, Mayor makes more 3-3s.
7. dte: chancellor of the dross, chancellor of the dross, chancellor of the dross, soul spike / 6-0, Daze Spike, go wide.
8. Wrath of Pie: Swamp, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Lodestone Golem / 3-3, Daze Ritual or get locked out.
9. jhhdk: Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Mishra's Factory, Smallpox, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth / 6-0, Daze Smallpox.
10. maxx!: Bazaar of Baghdad, Basking Rootwalla, Basking Rootwalla, Vengevine / 6-0, OTD you can do 16 damage before I can trade off Vengevine, and I have plenty of time to win.
11. silkster: Tropical Island, Old-Growth Dryads, Daze, Leyline of Punishment / 3-3, OTD lose a Daze fight. OTP, I Daze Dryads, if Dazed back, Mayor wins. If not Mutavault wins.
12. GoblinSmashmaster: Volcanic Island, Goblin Lackey, Daze, Morophon, the Boundless / 3-3, As with silkster.

54 points.

[PJim]

As far as I see it, we do 2-2 with each other with Serguei and matta, lose 0-6 to PJim, and beat everything else 6-0 :)

Much as I'd love an 18 point lead over the field, I don't see how you're beating Lodestone Golem, the other Dazers, or 3 Dryads? All of them can't be turned off with Spike, and can make up a 22 or 26 life swing over 10 turns.

[mattamort]

I guess there was ambiguity in the round rules or maybe my english is too bad.

After 10 turns (from both players), the player with the highest life total wins the game. If life totals are equal, the game ends in a draw.

I understand it as 10 turns are shared between the players. In sudden death, number of turns are fixed, maybe thats why.

Of course, if it is not the case it changes the outcome

1. Asthereal (TO): Chrome Mox, Chancellor of the Dross, Divest, Maze of Ith
6-0
6 Pts

2. PJim: Tropical Island, Mutavault, Mayor of Avabruck, Daze
Starting Life Total 11-29
Turn 2 Mayor
Turn 3 Mayor - Play Spike, counter it
Turn 4 Attack for 4, 11-25
Turn 5 Nothing
Turn 6 Attack for 4, create a 3/3 7-21
Turn 8 Attack for 7, create a 3/3 7-14
Turn 10 Attack for 10, 7-4
0-6

3. RoosterCocoa: Swamp, Divest, Witch's Oven, Cauldron Familiar
6-0
12Pts

4. mattamort: Chancellor of the dross, Chancellor of the dross, Chancellor of the dross, Soul spike
5. Serguei: Chancellor of the Dross; Chancellor of the Dross; Chancellor of the Dross; Soul Spike
2-2
14Pts

6. alphastryk: Forest, Old-Growth Dryads, Old-Growth Dryads, Old-Growth Dryads
Starting Life Total 11-29
Turn 1 Dryad#1 - Get Spike 11-33
Turn 3 Dryad#2
Turn 5 Dryad#3 11-26
Turn 7 11-20
Turn 9 11-14
6-0
20Pts

7. dte: chancellor of the dross, chancellor of the dross, chancellor of the dross, soul spike
2-2
22Pts

8. Wrath of Pie: Swamp, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Lodestone Golem
Starting Life Total 11-29
Drain you upkeep 7-33
Golem is going to attack 4 times
7-13
6-0
28Pts

9. jhhdk: Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Mishra's Factory, Smallpox, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
6-0
34Pts

10. maxx!: Bazaar of Baghdad, Basking Rootwalla, Basking Rootwalla, Vengevine
Burn Vine
6-0
40Pts

11. silkster: Tropical Island, Old-Growth Dryads, Daze, Leyline of Punishment
Starting Life Total 11-20
Play Upkeep Spike 7-20
4 Attack of dryad
7-8
6-0
46Pts

12. GoblinSmashmaster: Volcanic Island, Goblin Lackey, Daze, Morophon, the Boundless
Starting Life 7-33
Turn1 Lackey
Turn3 Play Morophon 7-32
Turn5 7-24
Turn7 7-16
Turn9 7-8
6-0
52Pts

12W-4D-2L

Of course, it changes the result if we get 10 turns each, but at least in confirms dte assumption.

[Asthereal]

Of course, it changes the result if we get 10 turns each
We get 10 turns each. I thought that was clear by the "from both players". But apparently it wasn't.
Sad to see nobody brought this up before, as it might change quite drastically how one would go about designing the deck.

[PJim]

It was clarified above, I think it's fairly clear for a native english speaker, but can see that it might be a tricky point for a second language.


The game just ends after 10 turns each.

So unfortunately I think that flips the 4 games I suggested.

[Serguei]

We get 10 turns each. I thought that was clear by the "from both players". But apparently it wasn't.
Sad to see nobody brought this up before, as it might change quite drastically how one would go about designing the deck.

After 10 turns means there is not an 11th turn
From both players was just here to explain the skipper turns and potential additionnal ones

[Serguei]

Yes. If you win before turn 10 fully ends, you just win. It's just that the game doesn't go longer than that.

Even here you are mentionning turn 10
Sorry for the double post but I am on m'y phone

[dte]

I thought "from both players" would be ten turns counted from both players, so 5 each.

Then I guess my deck is absolutely terrible. Too bad, I think I would have enjoyed more building for 10 each, I register the chancellor thinking that in 4 attacks against a removal, it would win often, but that it was a fairly boring deck.

But it is part of deviant 4cb to understand the round rules. Who never lost a magic game due to inadequate rule understanding :)

[mattamort]

Too bad, I think I would have enjoyed more building for 10 each, I register the chancellor thinking that in 4 attacks against a removal, it would win often, but that it was a fairly boring deck.



Funny, I thought the exact opposite, I found interesting to find a deck that was not able to deal 20 dmg.

[Asthereal]

.... The game just ends after 10 turns each. ...
I'm sticking to this.

English is my second language, and I do apologize for the confusion, but the round rule says the game ends after 10 turns from both players, which in my view of how English works is the same as 10 turns from each player. Maybe that's incorrect, but that's how I meant it and nobody asked to specify. I got two questions about whether you can win before the sudden death moment, and none about when the sudden death moment was supposed to happen exactly. Which is why my wording in the two answers might be interpreted differently between them. I wasn't focusing on the sudden death moment in my answers. I was focusing on whether you can win before that moment or not. I thought the moment itself was clear.

It's strange to me that nobody who thought it was sudden death after 5 turns each bothered to ask whether that was the actual plan. I mean: after 10 rounds of bannathon that would make max three strategies viable. Perhaps even less.

[dte]

I'm sticking to this.

Sure, no point arguing the rules afterwards as some have built in two different options.


It's strange to me that nobody who thought it was sudden death after 5 turns each bothered to ask whether that was the actual plan.

Actually one did, and I thought "great, same understanding of the rules":


A little late to ask, but: 10 turns from both players means 10 turns total, so each player gets 5 turns if no extra turns are taken. That's how I intended it when I wrote it, but what I intended doesn't actually matter (and has been changed in a few other rounds). Is this right?


I mean: after 10 rounds of bannathon that would make max three strategies viable. Perhaps even less.

A bit more: infect still works, barren glory too, mayor certainly does, Sorin/chancellor would also work, etc..
And I thought the point was to build decks that would be looking to win not in general before the 5 turns and have the round rule as safety net, but purposefully abusing the rule. It seems that it was what mattamort thought:


Funny, I thought the exact opposite, I found interesting to find a deck that was not able to deal 20 dmg.

Great part of 4CB, everybody sees fun in different parts :)

[Serguei]

I'm sticking to this.

English is my second language, and I do apologize for the confusion, but the round rule says the game ends after 10 turns from both players, which in my view of how English works is the same as 10 turns from each player. Maybe that's incorrect, but that's how I meant it and nobody asked to specify. I got two questions about whether you can win before the sudden death moment, and none about when the sudden death moment was supposed to happen exactly. Which is why my wording in the two answers might be interpreted differently between them. I wasn't focusing on the sudden death moment in my answers. I was focusing on whether you can win before that moment or not. I thought the moment itself was clear.

It's strange to me that nobody who thought it was sudden death after 5 turns each bothered to ask whether that was the actual plan. I mean: after 10 rounds of bannathon that would make max three strategies viable. Perhaps even less.


So just a question what would happen if someone takes an extra turn ?

[Asthereal]

And I thought the point was to build decks that would be looking to win not in general before the 5 turns and have the round rule as safety net, but purposefully abusing the rule.
I wonder whether this confusion is why so little decks were submitted.
Or if people thought just 5 turns was dumb and didn't want to submit a dumb deck.
Anyway, crappy round because of my crappy wording. Shit happens & better luck next time.

It now also makes a lot more sense to me why so many people posted Chancellor of the Dross x3 + Spike.
I built in a pile of contingency because I thought not playing an actual wincon was super risky.
But in 5 turns it's actually rather hard to win at all, let alone turn around a 26 life swing.



So just a question what would happen if someone takes an extra turn ?
Thankfully nobody can get one, but I'd say an extra turn is an extra turn. Both keep their original 10 turns and we suddenly die after those are done.

[Wrath of Pie]

8. Wrath of Pie: Swamp, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Lodestone Golem

1. Asthereal (TO): Chrome Mox, Chancellor of the Dross, Divest, Maze of Ith LL
2. PJim: Tropical Island, Mutavault, Mayor of Avabruck, Daze WL
3. RoosterCocoa: Swamp, Divest, Witch's Oven, Cauldron Familiar WL
4. mattamort: Chancellor of the dross, Chancellor of the dross, Chancellor of the dross, Soul spike WW
5. Serguei: Chancellor of the Dross; Chancellor of the Dross; Chancellor of the Dross; Soul Spike WW
6. alphastryk: Forest, Old-Growth Dryads, Old-Growth Dryads, Old-Growth Dryads WD
7. dte: chancellor of the dross, chancellor of the dross, chancellor of the dross, soul spike WW
9. jhhdk: Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Mishra's Factory, Smallpox, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth WD
10. maxx!: Bazaar of Baghdad, Basking Rootwalla, Basking Rootwalla, Vengevine WL
11. silkster: Tropical Island, Old-Growth Dryads, Daze, Leyline of Punishment WL
12. GoblinSmashmaster: Volcanic Island, Goblin Lackey, Daze, Morophon, the Boundless WL

13w2d = 41 points

For those confused on the turn debate, Magic Online pretty much goes by what Asthereal has said, so there is official basis in that definition. (Which is funny, because tournament extra turns don't follow that procedure, and that might have been what people expected.)

[dte]

How to go from great to bad, from not asking questions:

1. Asthereal (TO): Chrome Mox, Chancellor of the Dross, Divest, Maze of Ith
6-0
6

2. PJim: Tropical Island, Mutavault, Mayor of Avabruck, Daze
0-6
6

3. RoosterCocoa: Swamp, Divest, Witch's Oven, Cauldron Familiar
6-0. On tempo, you cannot attack with cat because of spike.
12

4. mattamort: Chancellor of the dross, Chancellor of the dross, Chancellor of the dross, Soul spike
2-2.
14

5. Serguei: Chancellor of the Dross; Chancellor of the Dross; Chancellor of the Dross; Soul Spike
2-2
16

6. alphastryk: Forest, Old-Growth Dryads, Old-Growth Dryads, Old-Growth Dryads
0-6. I need to read the rules
16

7. dte: chancellor of the dross, chancellor of the dross, chancellor of the dross, soul spike
me

8. Wrath of Pie: Swamp, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Lodestone Golem
0-6, you do 45 dmg to my 26 differential
16

9. jhhdk: Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Mishra's Factory, Smallpox, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
6-0. You have to play smallpox twice before animating mishra to not lose it to spike. Way to slow.
22

10. maxx!: Bazaar of Baghdad, Basking Rootwalla, Basking Rootwalla, Vengevine
6-0. You attack 9 times for 2, I get 22 life differential.
28

11. silkster: Tropical Island, Old-Growth Dryads, Daze, Leyline of Punishment
0-6.
28

12. GoblinSmashmaster: Volcanic Island, Goblin Lackey, Daze, Morophon, the Boundless
0-6
28

That's about half the score I thought I had first, but it could have ended up way worse :)

[alphastryk]

I definitely assumed this was 10 turns total (5 each if no extra turns were taken), but this is one of those phrases where English is a dumb language and it means both at the same time. My boring no effort / 3 threats plan was to goldfish a kill before that turn and to beat 4x Chancellor by dealing 27 damage by my turn 5 (Soul Spike puts a dent in that plan though). Because we play 10 turns each, that's enough for me to beat the Chancellor decks Soul Spike or not.

1. Asthereal (TO): Chrome Mox, Chancellor of the Dross, Divest, Maze of Ith
3 threats beats Divest + Maze. WW

6-0

2. PJim: Tropical Island, Mutavault, Mayor of Avabruck, Daze
Mayor is infinite threats which I can't beat, and Daze has text. This is a much better deck than mine. LL

0-6

3. RoosterCocoa: Swamp, Divest, Witch's Oven, Cauldron Familiar
You Divest one of my 3/3s and can block + sac a second but a swing of 3 life per turn from the unblocked Dryad beats the 2 point swing per turn from Cat + oven. WW

6-0

4. mattamort: Chancellor of the dross, Chancellor of the dross, Chancellor of the dross, Soul spike
Given 10 turns each, I race. WW

6-0


5. Serguei: Chancellor of the Dross; Chancellor of the Dross; Chancellor of the Dross; Soul Spike
Given 10 turns each, I race. WW

6-0

6. alphastryk: Forest, Old-Growth Dryads, Old-Growth Dryads, Old-Growth Dryads
My lazy entry

7. dte: chancellor of the dross, chancellor of the dross, chancellor of the dross, soul spike
Given 10 turns each, I race. WW

6-0

8. Wrath of Pie: Swamp, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Lodestone Golem
OTP I jam a 3/3 which can block so we stare. OTD I do nothing and get smashed by the Golem. DL

1-4

9. jhhdk: Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Mishra's Factory, Smallpox, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
I can't beat Smallpox and you have time to get in once with Factory before the time limit. LL

0-6

10. maxx!: Bazaar of Baghdad, Basking Rootwalla, Basking Rootwalla, Vengevine
This is a race, given 10 turns each one of us will win the race before the time limit. I think that I'm better equipped for the race because I have more power and your Rootwallas can't trade, only chump block if needed. Seems like I should always come out ahead. WW

6-0

11. silkster: Tropical Island, Old-Growth Dryads, Daze, Leyline of Punishment
Leyline of Punishment is really good tech for this round but doesn't affect my deck. Daze takes care of one of my Dryads, but ultimately I end up with 2 Dryads to your 2 Dryad. WW

6-0

12. GoblinSmashmaster: Volcanic Island, Goblin Lackey, Daze, Morophon, the Boundless
OTP I get down a blocker for Lackey then make more Dryads to attack past Lackey for the win. OTD you get down Lackey and can Daze my blocker to make Morophon. I can't win a race from here and leaving up blockers means I lose to sudden death. WL

3-3

Total: 46 points

[GoblinSmashmaster]

GoblinSmashmaster Results for Round "20 Turns"

1. Asthereal (TO): Chrome Mox, Chancellor of the Dross, Divest, Maze of Ith
Maze :( 0-6

2. PJim: Tropical Island, Mutavault, Mayor of Avabruck, Daze
Goblin smash, then Daze 3-3

3. RoosterCocoa: Swamp, Divest, Witch's Oven, Cauldron Familiar
Goblin smash, then Divest 4-1

4. mattamort: Chancellor of the dross, Chancellor of the dross, Chancellor of the dross, Soul spike
Goblin smash! 6-0

5. Serguei: Chancellor of the Dross; Chancellor of the Dross; Chancellor of the Dross; Soul Spike
Goblin smash! 6-0

6. alphastryk: Forest, Old-Growth Dryads, Old-Growth Dryads, Old-Growth Dryads
Goblin smash 3-3

7. dte: chancellor of the dross, chancellor of the dross, chancellor of the dross, soul spike
Goblin smash! 6-0

8. Wrath of Pie: Swamp, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Lodestone Golem
Goblin smash 3-3

9. jhhdk: Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Mishra's Factory, Smallpox, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
Goblin smash! 4-1

10. maxx!: Bazaar of Baghdad, Basking Rootwalla, Basking Rootwalla, Vengevine
Better aggro 0-6

11. silkster: Tropical Island, Old-Growth Dryads, Daze, Leyline of Punishment
Goblin stare 2-2

12. GoblinSmashmaster: Volcanic Island, Goblin Lackey, Daze, Morophon, the Boundless
That's me playing Goblins!

Total: 37 points

[GoblinSmashmaster]

GoblinSmashmaster Results for Round "No goblin smashing"

1. Asthereal (TO): Volcanic Island, Sheltered Valley, Keldon Megaliths, Energy Field
Glory! 6-0

2. GoblinSmashmaster: Lotus Bloom, Lotus Bloom, Noxious Revival, Barren Glory
That's me not allowed to smash

3. dte: Daze, Underground Sea, Shrieking Affliction, Sleeper Agent
Agent :( 0-6

4. PJim: Stomping Ground, Orcish Lumberjack, Aluren, Acererak the Archlich
Combo 0-6

5. alphastryk: Phyrexian Tower, Shield Sphere, Sleeper Agent, Sleeper Agent
Agent :( 0-6

6. silkster: Swamp, Sleeper Agent, Leyline of Sanctity, Specter's Shriek
Agent :( 0-6

7. maxx!: Leyline of Sanctity, Icatian Store, Karn Liberated, Approach of the Second Sun
Glory! 6-0

8. RoosterCocoa: Mountain, Swamp, Raze, Sleeper Agent
Agent :( 0-6

9. mattamort: Subterranean Hangar, Forbidden orchard, Rakdos Charm, Beast Within
Orchard :( 0-6

10. jhhdk: Ebon Stronghold, Smallpox, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Shrieking Affliction
Glory! 6-0

11. Reeplcheep: Swamp , Go Blank, Shrieking Affliction , Dark Ritual
No glory 2-2

12. Wrath of Pie: Scoured Barrens, Karakas, Wheel of Sun and Moon, Tyrant's Choice
Glory! 6-0

13. FTW: Remote Farm, Interplanar Beacon, Kaya, Orzhov Usurper, Davriel, Rogue Shadowmage
Discard 0-6

14. Serguei: Swamp, Duress, Sleeper Agent, Leyline of sanctity
Agent :( 0-6

Total: 26 points

[RoosterCocoa]

3. RoosterCocoa: Swamp, Divest, Witch's Oven, Cauldron Familiar

1. Asthereal (TO): Chrome Mox, Chancellor of the Dross, Divest, Maze of Ith
OTP I Divest your Chrome Mox and use Cauldron Familiar and Oven to win. OTD you divest my Cauldron Familiar and I can't do anything. WL

2. PJim: Tropical Island, Mutavault, Mayor of Avabruck, Daze
I can't beat Mutavault + Daze. LL

4. mattamort: Chancellor of the dross, Chancellor of the dross, Chancellor of the dross, Soul spike
I can't catch up to your life lead since you have Soul Spike. LL

5. Serguei: Chancellor of the Dross; Chancellor of the Dross; Chancellor of the Dross; Soul Spike
I can't catch up to your life lead since you have Soul Spike. LL

6. alphastryk: Forest, Old-Growth Dryads, Old-Growth Dryads, Old-Growth Dryads
Three creatures is too much for me. LL

7. dte: chancellor of the dross, chancellor of the dross, chancellor of the dross, soul spike
I can't catch up to your life lead since you have Soul Spike. LL

8. Wrath of Pie: Swamp, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Lodestone Golem
OTP I Divest the Lodestone Golem, OTD you play Lodestone Golem and I can't play anything. WL

9. jhhdk: Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Mishra's Factory, Smallpox, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
OTP I can play both Cauldron Familiar and Witch's Oven before you Smallpox. This means Smallpox can never kill the Cauldron Familiar, since I can sacrifice it with Witch's Oven in response, and then bring it back after Smallpox resolves. You also can't win by attacking with Mishra's Factory, since I can block with Cauldron Familiar and then sacrifice it. This means I win no matter what you do. OTD your Smallpox means I can't keep anything but Witch's Oven in play, so you win by attacking twice with Mishra's Factory. WL

10. maxx!: Bazaar of Baghdad, Basking Rootwalla, Basking Rootwalla, Vengevine
OTP I Divest a Basking Rootwalla and you can't do anything. OTD you do too much damage for me to catch up. WL

11. silkster: Tropical Island, Old-Growth Dryads, Daze, Leyline of Punishment
OTP I Divest your Old-Growth Dryads, you Daze my Cauldron Familiar, and we draw. OTD you play Old-Growth Dryads and Daze my Cauldron Familiar so I can't do anything. DL

12. GoblinSmashmaster: Volcanic Island, Goblin Lackey, Daze, Morophon, the Boundless
OTP I play Cauldron Familiar and never attack. You play Goblin Lackey, but if you ever attack I trade our creatures and win due to my life lead and if you don't attack I win for the same reason. You can't do anything else so I win. OTD you play Goblin Lackey, Daze whatever I play next and get Morophon, which I can't beat. WL

5W 1D 16L = 16

I had thought I found a great deck involving Library of Leng and Radiant Solar, only to learn at the last moment that Library of Leng doesn't work if you discard a card as part of a cost. This meant I had little time to come up with another deck, and as expected it didn't do well.

Looking at next round, how do cards like Rest in Peace interact with the round rule? I don't know the rules well enough to know how multiple of these effects interact.

[Wrath of Pie]

Looking at next round, how do cards like Rest in Peace interact with the round rule? I don't know the rules well enough to know how multiple of these effects interact.

APNAP should be the name of the game.

[dte]

No apnap, two replacement effects with choice given to the owner of the card:RiP is a bad idea.

[PJim]

I disagree with both of the above. The round rule is a change to the game rules, and the card effect then has the golden rule applied, so RiP should apply every time.

[maxx!]

maxx!: Bazaar of Baghdad, Basking Rootwalla, Basking Rootwalla, Vengevine

1. Asthereal (TO): Chrome Mox, Chancellor of the Dross, Divest, Maze of Ith
OTP I get my whole team, and even with Maze on Vengevine I easily swing the life totals enough in time. OTD you Divest a Rootwalla (which I then cast), and then on my turn I get the second Rootwalla. I can't get any damage past Maze until my second turn, but that leaves me 9 turns to double attack, dropping you to 14 to my 17. 6-0

2. PJim: Tropical Island, Mutavault, Mayor of Avabruck, Daze
You have inevitability but I have speed. Seems like it could be close. OTP I go off and attack for 4. You play a land and pass. I attack for 6 (you're at 10), and then you play the Mayor. I attack and you can't really block, so you go to 4. The Mayor flips on your upkeep, and then you get a token. Now I can't attack, because the token trades with Vengevine while the Mayor and Mutavault can eat my Rootwallas for free. After that, you can start safely attacking with new tokens. You've got 7 turns of that, which should be enough to kill me (or at least get me below 4). 0-6

3. RoosterCocoa: Swamp, Divest, Witch's Oven, Cauldron Familiar
OTP should be an easy win for me. Vengevine connects at least once, and then the whole team attacks every turn. The best you can do is block Vengevine before saccing the cat, so both Rootwallas connect for 2 every turn, but your cat loop makes a 2 point lifeswing every turn. Those should even out, but I started ahead in the race, so I win that one. OTD you Divest a Rootwalla (which I cast), then I cast my second one and attack for 1. You play Familiar and pass. I can attack with both Rootwallas now and you can't block or you lose your loop, but that leaves me open to a counterattack on top of your ETB trigger. So every turn I would attack for 2, then you would hit me back for 2 and gain 1. My other option is to hold one back to threaten to block, but in that case you don't ever have to attack, since your loop by itself is a 2 point swing to my 1. 3-3

4. mattamort: Chancellor of the dross, Chancellor of the dross, Chancellor of the dross, Soul spike
This is super interesting. Play or draw shouldn't matter, since I get 10 turns regardless and you can play Soul Spike whenever you want. On my first turn I go off, and you Spike my Vengevine before it attacks. That puts you up to 33 while I'm at 11. I need 11 attacks to even things out, which is more than 10 turns. 0-6

5. Serguei: Chancellor of the Dross; Chancellor of the Dross; Chancellor of the Dross; Soul Spike
Nice deck. See above. 0-6

6. alphastryk: Forest, Old-Growth Dryads, Old-Growth Dryads, Old-Growth Dryads
This is too beefy for me and I'm not fast enough to race. 0-6

7. dte: chancellor of the dross, chancellor of the dross, chancellor of the dross, soul spike
This again. 0-6

8. Wrath of Pie: Swamp, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Lodestone Golem
OTP I hit you with Vengevine and then stare at your Golem until turn 10. OTD I can't do anything. 3-3

9. jhhdk: Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Mishra's Factory, Smallpox, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
I think I should be fast enough to beat this. OTD you play a land, I go off and hit you for 4 (20 vs 16). You have to Smallpox or I'll just attack into your open Factory with Vengevine every turn, so you do (19 vs 15). I sac a Rootwalla, and then attack you back on my turn for 5 (19 vs 10). You draw Kozilek and pass. I attack for 5 again (19 vs 5). You draw Smallpox and pass. I attack for lethal. 6-0

10. maxx!: Bazaar of Baghdad, Basking Rootwalla, Basking Rootwalla, Vengevine
This is me :]

11. silkster: Tropical Island, Old-Growth Dryads, Daze, Leyline of Punishment
OTP I hit you for 4 to begin, and then I can stare at your Dryad until time is called. OTD you can Daze one Rootwalla, but I still get Vengevine and attack. Your 3/3 can't race my 4/3, and if you trade then I just start hitting with Rootwalla. 6-0

12. GoblinSmashmaster: Volcanic Island, Goblin Lackey, Daze, Morophon, the Boundless
Daze can only stop 1 Rootwalla, and I always get Vengevine. I leave one creature back to block Lackey, and attack you with the other every turn. 6-0

6+0+3+0+0+0+0+3+6+6+6 = 30

I read the round rule to mean 10 turns each (20 turns total), but to be fair I didn't do a lot of math around it. 10 turns seemed like a long enough time that I couldn't think of anything interesting, so I mostly ignored the round rule. I thought Vengevine was fast enough to hopefully get an attack or two in before getting stonewalled by anything, and is pretty resilient to counterspells and somewhat resilient to discard. I totally missed the Chancellor + Soul Spike deck, which seems quite good even with the turn limit misunderstandings.