4 Card Blind

[Asthereal]

The twelveth ( :smile: ) season has come to a close. And again, dte went on to win that one. Congrats, and bragging rights to you! :cool:
Season 13 will be organized by another 4CB enthusiast, and will go live in a new thread.

Thanks to everyone who participated in these 12 seasons of our little competition of chaos!
Under my "rule" we've done nearly everything I could think of for this format, and I enjoyed the heck out of it.
But my life has become busier, and I haven't been able to give this competition the time and attention it deserves.
It's time to pass on the torch. So keep an eye on the forum for a new thread with a new season, in new but I'm sure equally capable hands!


4 CARD BLIND - SEASON 12 - VINTAGE CREATURELESS BANNATHON

This season, we play 15 rounds of Vintage Creatureless Bannathon. We will start with a modest banned list, and each round we'll add all decks that score 3 season points or more to the banned list.
Basic lands are excluded from these bannings, but other than cards from decks that scored 3+ season points will be added to the banned list every round.
Creatureless means the following: your deck may not contain Creature Cards. This is judged by whether it says "Creature" on the card in the card type bar.
When the card text itself explicitly says it is to be considered a creature card, it is also considered a Creature Card for this season, as with for example the card Grist, the Hunger Tide.
Cards that are not Creature Cards, but can become a creature by some effect, or can creature creature tokens or sorts, will be legal unless banned for other reasons.
NOTE: There are no restrictions on the number of copies of individual cards you're allowed to play. If a card is legal, you can play multiples. Enjoy your twin Lotus deck while it lasts.

For this season, we again stick to the scoring system from previous seasons:
All players score season points for all rounds they play. Season points for each round equal total points scored for the round, divided by the number of opponents in that round.
The tournament organizer will make calculations (or have Google Spreadsheet figure that stuff out) and keep track of standings below. Note: season points are always rounded to one decimal.
You will find the Google Spreadsheet for season 12 here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/133u0GArlnmhu3-HvGSM-i_TrP6_emAZPHjF50Y10QhM/edit?usp=sharing

How 4 Card Blind works is descibed on more detail below.

Participation is entirely voluntary, and all you can win is bragging rights. We do this for fun.
If you missed a round, or want to enter mid-season, no problem. You can (re-)enter in any round. All you missed was a few potential season points.
And fun. You missed out on fun. Which is a lot worse than lagging behind on the score sheet.


Standings for season 12 after the final round:
1. dte: 53 <-congrats on winning this one!
2. silkster: 50
3. FTW: 49,5
4. RoosterCocoa: 45,5
5. maxx!: 44,9
6. Asthereal (TO): 42,7
7. Reeplcheep: 41,7
8. GoblinSmashmaster: 36,4
9. alphastryk: 36,1
10. Phasmoid: 34,7
11. jfb1337: 14,3
12. Nasst: 6,1


Direct links to posts with the decks for each round in the 12th season:
- Decks and discussion for round 15 (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1100966&viewfull=1#post1100966)
- Decks and discussion for round 14 (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1100900&viewfull=1#post1100900)
- Decks and discussion for round 13 (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1100780&viewfull=1#post1100780)
- Decks and discussion for round 12 (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1100739&viewfull=1#post1100739)
- Decks and discussion for round 11 (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1100664&viewfull=1#post1100664)
- Decks and discussion for round 10 (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1100611&viewfull=1#post1100611)
- Decks and discussion for round 9 (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1100529&viewfull=1#post1100529)
- Decks and discussion for round 8 (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1100425&viewfull=1#post1100425)
- Decks and discussion for round 7 (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1100333&viewfull=1#post1100333)
- Decks and discussion for round 6 (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1100285&viewfull=1#post1100285)
- Decks and discussion for round 5 (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1100226&viewfull=1#post1100226)
- Decks and discussion for round 4 (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1100153&viewfull=1#post1100153)
- Decks and discussion for round 3 (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1099990&viewfull=1#post1099990)
- Decks and discussion for round 2 (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1099809&viewfull=1#post1099809)
- Decks and discussion for round 1 (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1099720&viewfull=1#post1099720)


HOW 4 CARD BLIND WORKS

All participants create a legal 4 card deck, and send it to the tournament organizer via PM before the deadline, but after the organizer has officially started the round.
After the deadline has expired, the tournament organizer posts all decks on the forum, and participants get to figure out who wins against who, and post results.
Every participant posts results for every opponent, so that everybody gets to cross-check their results and agree on the outcome. When in doubt, the community will help.
All participants play one game on the play and one on the draw against every other participant in that round. A win gets you 3 points, a draw is worth 1 point.
This means if you win on the play and score a draw when on the draw, you will score 3 + 1 = 4 points against that particular opponent.
The tournament organizer will add all scores and create a scoring table for the round, which will show who did the best in that particular round.
We will try to play a round every week. Every round the participants send in a new deck, hoping to out-smart the others.

New system for season points:
We have a new system for the season points in season 2 and onwards of 4CB. This season, we work with weighed scores per round. This goes as follows:
Season points for each round equal total points scored for the round, divided by the number of opponents in that round. Note: season points are rounded to one decimal.
So if you play against 8 players and score 17 points, you will score 17/8=2.125, which rounds to 2.1 season points for that round.
The winner of course is the one who has the most season points at the end of the season. For season 2, we plan to play 12 rounds.

Old system, for reference:
The top-4 for each round scores season points. The winner of each round gets 5 points added to their season total. Number two gets 3 points, number three gets 2 and number 4 gets 1.
In this opening post, the tournament organizer (me, for now) will post standings for the current season, and document winners for previous seasons.

Note: The tournament organizer (me) also plays along. Before each round starts, ho sends his own deck to himself via PM.
Afterwards, he posts on the forum that the round can start, and only then, other participants may send in their decks for the round.
We do this because otherwise, participants can accuse the organizer of creating a deck designed to beat what others have sent in.

Sending in your deck
As mentioned, you send your deck for the round via PM to the tournament organizer, which (for now) is me: Asthereal.
Please send your deck as follows (enter relevant season number, round number, username):

Subject: 4CB S04R01 deck
(4CB so I know what it's about / S04R01 means Season 4 Round 1, please adjust accordingly)
Message: Plains, Mother of Runes, Student of Warfare, Swords to Plowshares
(I prefer to receive the cards in card tags, and in this way of presenting: {cards}cardname1{/cards}, {cards}cardname2{/cards}, {cards}cardname3{/cards}, {cards}cardname4{/cards}, but with [] instead of {}.
If you send the deck this way, I can copy and paste super fast. That saves me a LOT of time!

Please only send it after I have announced the round has started, and before the deadline (obviously).
I also participate, so I have to send my own deck to myself before any other decks come in.

When a player submits a deck containing a banned card
When a player sends an illegal deck, and it's not noticed by either the player or the tournament organizer before posting decks for the round, that the player gets to swap the illegal card(s) with (a) basic land(s) of their choice.
This way, if someone accidentally sends in a deck containing a banned card, at least they get to still play using the remaining cards.
If you do notice before decks are posted for the round, just send a new PM with a new deck containing only legal cards.
If the TO catches it in time, he/she will send a PM to the player, but the TO is not responsible for the legality of entries.

The games go as follows
- You start with all four cards from your deck in your opening hand, and play from there.
- You don't lose the game for having to draw a card when you can't (obviously), rest stays the same as in regular MtG, so f.i. if a card ends up in your library, you will draw it next draw step.
- Random effects always have the effect that is most favorable to the opponent.
- Every player always plays optimally. If anyone finds a better line, that line is played.

Example
John sends in this deck: Taiga, Kird Ape, Lightning Bolt, Raze
Sarah sends in this deck: Sandstone Needle, City of Traitors, Boldwyr Heavyweights, Aftershock (actually, this was my first ever 4CB deck :cool: )
This looks like John's in trouble, because the Heavyweights will crush him big time, but actually, John wins this 4 to 1 because Sarah's lands are too slow.
OTP: T1 John plays Taiga, Kird Ape, T1 Sarah plays Sandstone Needle. T2 John plays Raze and kills the Needle, after which he rides the Ape to victory.
OTD: T1 Sarah plays Needle, T1 John cannot allow her to add a City and cast the Heavyweights, so he just goes Taiga, Raze the Needle and it's a draw because no one can cast anything anymore.

If anyone finds better lines, they can be openly discussed on the forum, and in the end the score for the optimal play on both sides is the final score.
So if you're not a very experienced player, that's no problem. Others will help you find the optimal play. 4CB is all about deck building and adapting to trends in the "meta".

Bannings
We will use special banning lists for 4CB, because certain cards that seem boring end up completely breaking this format (best example is Burning Inquiry).
In the post below you will find the bannings for the formats we play. (Note: we won't ban any cards for season 3 and 4.)

Loops
4CB by its nature violates several ideas behind regular Magic. One of them is the idea that games should never get 'stuck'. In regular Magic you will eventually draw your library and lose, for instance.
In 4CB we lose that failsafe, and since we play with only four cards, we get stuck all the time, for instance if both players have a Greenbelt Rampager in play, and attacking becomes pointless.
Another way you can get stuck is if one player has an action they can perform every turn in order to prevent the opponent for doing anything, like tapping a land every turn with Rishadan Port.
Technically, this would fall under the ruling of a "loop". These can occur across turns, and the regular Magic rules say you can't eternally perform a loop containing a voluntary action. Instead you have to choose a number.
This doesn't fit with the main rule of 4CB that says every player always plays optimally. Because when you need to tap a land eternally to stop something from getting cast, there is no optimal number except infinite.
Getting stuck is part of 4CB, so we don't worry about it too much, but we can't ignore the loop rule completely, because otherwise a player would be able to activate Nomads en-Kor infinitely just to force a draw.
So we will be using the following rule:

If a loop containing at least one optional action would be repeated indefinitely during a single turn, then an optimal number is determined for the loop to repeat, and after the loop has been repeated that number of times, it will stop.
If a loop containing at least one optional action would be repeated indefinitely across multiple turns, that loop may continue indefinitely, even if that would lead to a draw.

Examples:
- Aimlessly activating Nomads en-Kor in order to force a draw is a loop containing a voluntary action that occurs during a single turn. This loop will not happen indefinitely.
Instead, an optimal amount is determined for the loop to occur, after which it will stop. And the optimal number, in this case, will be zero times, as there is no benefit to the game state in activating Nomads en-Kor on itself.
- If you have a land, enchanted with Squirrel Nest and an Earthcraft, you can create infinite tokens. This is also a loop containing a voluntary action that occurs during a single turn.
Here, again we would determine an optimal amount to perform the loop. Since the loop creates a token, which benefits the game state, in this case we decide the optimal number of tokens to create, and create that amount of tokens, but no more. Say the opponent has one blocker and one removal spell, and he is at 20 life. We would create 22 tokens: 1 will die to removal, 1 will get blocked, and 20 will do damage to the opponent and kill him.
- If one player has a Stormscape Apprentice in play, with mana to activate it, and the other player has a Rotting Regisaur in play, eternally tapping the Regisaur in order to not die to it would be a loop across multiple turns.
This loop is allowed in 4CB and will lead to a draw (unless there are other cards that can influence this loop, or otherwise change the outcome of the game).


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4 CARD BLIND - SEASON 11 - LEGACY CREATURES & LANDS BANNATHON

This season, we played 15 rounds of Legacy Creatures & Lands Bannathon. We started with a modest banned list, and added the top-3 scoring decks for each round to the banned list.
Basic lands were excluded from these bannings, but other than that the top 3 were added to the banned list every round.
Creatures & lands meant the following: your deck had to be composed entirely of creature and/or land cards. For dual faced cards, the front side counted.

For this season, we again stuck to the scoring system from previous seasons:
All players score season points for all rounds they play. Season points for each round equal total points scored for the round, divided by the number of opponents in that round.
The tournament organizer makes calculations (or have Google Spreadsheet figure that stuff out) and keep track of standings below. Note: season points are always rounded to one decimal.
You will find the Google Spreadsheet for season 11 here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pUkicsW23Lxi1CmCUAenf_9ktdEpfrfQLrsk2fu6rJ4/edit?usp=sharing

Final standings for season 11:
1. dte: 58,1 - congrats on winning another season!
2. PJim: 52,1
3. silkster: 49,9
4. Asthereal (TO): 45,9
5. FTW: 41,4
6. GoblinSmashmaster: 40
7. Reeplcheep: 39,8
8. maxx!: 39,4
9. RoosterCocoa: 38,3
10. Wrath of Pie: 35,2
11. alphastryk: 28,8
12. Nasst: 20,8

Direct links to posts with the decks for each round in the eleventh season:
- Decks and discussion for round 15 (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1099501&viewfull=1#post1099501)
- Decks and discussion for round 14 (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1099397&viewfull=1#post1099397)
- Decks and discussion for round 13 (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1099319&viewfull=1#post1099319)
- Decks and discussion for round 12 (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1099168&viewfull=1#post1099168)
- Decks and discussion for round 11 (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1098994&viewfull=1#post1098994)
- Decks and discussion for round 10 (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1098891&viewfull=1#post1098891)
- Decks and discussion for round 9 (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1098817&viewfull=1#post1098817)
- Decks and discussion for round 8 (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1098695&viewfull=1#post1098695)
- Decks and discussion for round 7 (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1098561&viewfull=1#post1098561)
- Decks and discussion for round 6 (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1098398&viewfull=1#post1098398)
- Decks and discussion for round 5 (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1098323&viewfull=1#post1098323)
- Decks and discussion for round 4 (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1098187&viewfull=1#post1098187)
- Decks and discussion for round 3 (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1098098&viewfull=1#post1098098)
- Decks and discussion for round 2 (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1097958&viewfull=1#post1097958)
- Decks and discussion for round 1 (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1097857&viewfull=1#post1097857)


4 CARD BLIND - SEASON 10 - DEVIANT LEGACY BANNATHON

This season, we played 15 rounds of Legacy, but with two twists: every round has a special rule which changes how Magic (and possibly 4CB) would normally work.
Also, we turned the season into a bannathon, where the cards from the top-3 scoring decks each round got banned for the remainder of the season. Basic lands were excluded from there bannings.
We start with the original Legacy 4CB banned list, and will be adding to it after each round.
You can find the banned list in the second post (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1064264&viewfull=1#post1064264) of this thread.

For this season, we again stuck to the scoring system from previous seasons:
All players score season points for all rounds they play. Season points for each round equal total points scored for the round, divided by the number of opponents in that round.
The tournament organizer will make calculations (or have Google Spreadsheet figure that stuff out) and keep track of standings below. Note: season points are always rounded to one decimal.
You will find the Google Spreadsheet for season 10 here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1M2zwN9zxSe7IwiJmZH8eGXeNpEjqspR_SWT5d3Hqqac/edit?usp=sharing

The schedule:
1. Pillow Fight: Creatures have indestructible and hexproof.
2. Phyrexian mana: All colored mana symbols in costs can also be paid with 2 life.
3. Mythic Mayhem: All cards in your deck must be Mythic Rare, and have only been printed as Mythic Rare. Note: basic lands are not legal. Zendikar Rising mythic modal lands take their place in the rulings for illegal cards. Zendikar Rising mythic modal lands are exempted from the bannathon before this round.
4. Duplicity: Whenever a nontoken creature enters the battlefield, its controller creates a token that’s a copy of that creature. (The controller of the creature that triggers this ability is considered to be the controller of the trigger itself.)
5. Persistence: All creatures have Persist. Effects that prevent counters being placed on creatures don't cause creatures to fail to return to play when their Persist ability resolves.
6. Antagonism: At the beginning of each player’s end step, that player loses 2 life unless one of their opponents lost life that turn. (This triggered ability has no controller or target.)
7. Magical Metal: When an artifact enters the battlefield, its controller may add one mana of the color of his or her choice to their mana pool. (The controller of the artifact that triggers this ability is considered to be the controller of the trigger itself.)
8. Cornucopia: Non-land cards in each deck must in total contain at least 3 different colored mana symbols in their mana costs. Hybrid mana symbols count for 1, and so does phyrexian mana. For modal and/or double-faced cards, both side/modes count.
9. Go Big Or Go Home: All non-land cards in your deck must have mana value 3 or greater.
10. Peacekeeper: Creatures can't attack.
11. Sudden Death: After 10 turns (from both players), the player with the highest life total wins the game. If life totals are equal, the game ends in a draw.
12. The Wheel: If a card would be put into a player's graveyard from anywhere, instead that card is put on the bottom of that player's library.
13. The Long Haul: Players start at 100 life. Effects that would make you win the game immediately instead do nothing.
14. Vials Galore: Each player starts the game with an emblem in play that has "At the beginning of your pre-combat main phase, you may put a Vial counter on this emblem." and has "(0): Put a creature card from your hand with converted mana cost equal to the number of Vial counters on this emblem onto the battlefield. You can use this ability only once per turn, and then not anymore until your next turn." Additional banning: Suppression Field
15. Sphere of Resistance: All spells cost one additional generic mana to cast.

Standings for season 10 after the final round
1. dte: 54,7 <- congrats on winning this one!
2. silkster: 52,5
3. PJim: 51,4
4. FTW: 46,9
5. alphastryk: 46
6. maxx!: 45,5
7. GoblinSmashmaster: 44,3
8. Serguei: 42,2
9. RoosterCocoa: 39
10. Wrath of Pie: 35,7
11. mattamort: 34,9
12. Reeplcheep: 32,1
13. Tylert: 29,6
14. Asthereal (TO): 27,2
15. jhhdk: 21,9
16. Phasmoid: 17,1
17. H: 10
18. shiftyhomunculus: 3,1


Direct links to posts with the decks for each round in the tenth season:
- Decks and discussion for round 15 (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1097408&viewfull=1#post1097408)
- Decks and discussion for round 14 (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1097296&viewfull=1#post1097296)
- Decks and discussion for round 13 (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1097141&viewfull=1#post1097141)
- Decks and discussion for round 12 (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1096991&viewfull=1#post1096991)
- Decks and discussion for round 11 (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1096855&viewfull=1#post1096855)
- Decks and discussion for round 10 (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1096641&viewfull=1#post1096641)
- Decks and discussion for round 9 (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1096506&viewfull=1#post1096506)
- Decks and discussion for round 8 (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1095850&viewfull=1#post1095850)
- Decks and discussion for round 7 (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1095635&viewfull=1#post1095635)
- Decks and discussion for round 6 (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1095387&viewfull=1#post1095387)
- Decks and discussion for round 5 (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1094985&viewfull=1#post1094985)
- Decks and discussion for round 4 (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1094747&viewfull=1#post1094747)
- Decks and discussion for round 3 (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1094488&viewfull=1#post1094488)
- Decks and discussion for round 2 (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1094019&viewfull=1#post1094019)
- Decks and discussion for round 1 (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1093725&viewfull=1#post1093725)



4 CARD BLIND - SEASON 9 - DEVIANT LEGACY - PART 2

This season, we played 15 rounds of Legacy, but with a twist: every round had a special rule which changes how Magic (and possibly 4CB) would normally work.
We used a fixed banned list for every round, which you will find in the second post (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1064264&viewfull=1#post1064264) of this thread.
Additionally, each round could contain its own bannings when we deemed those necessary, which when relevant were mentioned in the rules for that round.

For this season, we again stuck to the scoring system from previous seasons:
All players score season points for all rounds they play. Season points for each round equal total points scored for the round, divided by the number of opponents in that round.
The tournament organizer will make calculations (or have Google Spreadsheet figure that stuff out) and keep track of standings below. Note: season points are always rounded to one decimal.
You will find the Google Spreadsheet for season 9 here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1YwJGkRwet2eSSm2aVe8eq1OcIW1MFzrgrpcBk71woXA/edit?usp=sharing

The schedule:
1. Canadian Backbuild: A loss nets you 3 points and a win nets you zero. You still play optimally to win. Your deck must win both OTP and OTD against the Canadians (Snow-Covered Forest, Snow-Covered Mountain, Grizzly Bears, Balduvian Bears).
2. Dream Halls: Rather than pay the mana cost for a spell, its controller may discard a card that shares a color with that spell. Additional bannings: Progenitus, Approach of the Second Sun, Barren Glory
3. Berserker: Creatures can't block, creatures attack each turn if able, combat damage cannot be prevented, prevent all non-combat damage to players. Your deck may only contain creature and land cards.
4. Basic Bloom: You can play any basic land from outside the game at any time you could play a land. Additional bannings: White Sun's Zenith, Red Sun's Zenith, Beacon of Creation
5. The Coin: When you are on the draw, you begin the game with a Lotus Petal artifact token in play.
6. Impatience: At the beginning of each player’s end step, if that player didn’t cast a spell this turn, Impatience deals 2 damage to that player.
7. WUBRG: Each player starts the game with (W) (U) (B) (R) (G) in their mana pool. This mana doesn't empty from the pool as steps end. Additional bannings: NONE! You have 5 mana. Make use of it!
8. Supersize: All creatures get +3/+3. Additional bannings: Empty the Warrens, Chancellor of the Forge, Ensnaring Bridge, Meekstone
9. Race for Life: Players don't lose the game for having 0 life or less or from having 10 or more poison counters. If a player has 100 life or more, he or she wins the game. If no player can reach 100 life with optimal play from either side, the game ends in a draw. Effects that would prevent, replace or mitigate lifegain in any way instead do nothing. Effects that would make you win the game immediately, or make an opponent lose the game immediately, instead do nothing. Effects you control that would make you lose the game are unaffected.
10. Turtle Up: Until the start of the 6th turn: spells can't be countered, permanents have hexproof and indistructible, cards in graveyards have hexproof and players have hexproof. Damage does not cause loss of life, and players can't win or lose the game. Players may choose to ignore effects controlled by an opponent that would cause a permanent they control or card in their hand to change zones. Turns are counted as follows: player one, who is on the play, plays the first turn, then player two plays the second turn, then player one plays the third turn, player two the fourth, and player one the fifth. Then the limitations are lifted with the start of turn six, which will be played by player two (who was on the draw that game).
11. Bouncy castle: Each player starts the game with a Cloudstone Curio artifact token in play.
12. The Epic Round: All sorceries have Epic (For the rest of the game, you can't cast spells. At the beginning of each of your upkeeps, copy this spell except for its epic ability.). NB: You copy the spell as it is cast. If it has an X, that X will be the same for the copies. Modes will the the same. If the spell was cast with kicker, the copies will be kicked as well. If the spell was targeted, you may choose new targets for the copies.
13. Concise: Only cards with one-word names are legal. Please note that Pili-Pala is considered to be a card name with two words. We will extrapolate accordingly.
14. Bleed: At the beginning of each player's upkeep, that player loses 1 life.
15. Unique: Each player gets 1 additional season point in this round for each card in their deck that no other player submitted this round.

Standings for season 9 after the final round:
1. dte: 62,4 - Congrats to dte on winning this one!
2. FTW: 56,4
3. Tylert: 56,3
4. Serguei: 53,5
5. Wrath of Pie: 51,8
6. maxx!: 48,9
7. silkster: 48,2
8. Asthereal (TO): 42,7
9. GoblinSmashmaster: 39,8
10. H: 39,1
11. Reeplcheep: 39
12. jhhdk: 30,6
13. alphastryk: 25,7
14. PJim: 17,8

Direct links to posts with the decks for each round in the nineth season:
- Decks and discussion for round 15 (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1093200&viewfull=1#post1093200)
- Decks and discussion for round 14 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1093051&viewfull=1#post1093051)
- Decks and discussion for round 13 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1092946&viewfull=1#post1092946)
- Decks and discussion for round 12 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1092758&viewfull=1#post1092758)
- Decks and discussion for round 11 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1092388&viewfull=1#post1092388)
- Decks and discussion for round 10 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1092158&viewfull=1#post1092158)
- Decks and discussion for round 9 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1092055&viewfull=1#post1092055)
- Decks and discussion for round 8 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1091878&viewfull=1#post1091878)
- Decks and discussion for round 7 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1091654&viewfull=1#post1091654)
- Decks and discussion for round 6 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1091449&viewfull=1#post1091449)
- Decks and discussion for round 5 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1091271&viewfull=1#post1091271)
- Decks and discussion for round 4 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1090933&viewfull=1#post1090933)
- Decks and discussion for round 3 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1090728&viewfull=1#post1090728)
- Decks and discussion for round 2 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1090515&viewfull=1#post1090515)
- Decks and discussion for round 1 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1090373&viewfull=1#post1090373)



4 CARD BLIND - SEASON EIGHT: PEASANT CONTINUED BANNATHON

Season eight of Four Card Blind has come to a close. This season, we played twelve rounds of Peasant: decks consist of one uncommon card, and the rest of the cards have to be commons.
Also, we turned it into a bannathon, where after each round, the cards from the three best scoring decks in that round were added to the banned list.
If more decks were tied for third, all cards from those were banned. There is one exception to the bannings: basic lands did NOT get banned.

But there was another catch: we kept the banned list from season 7, and we kept adding to that list during this season.
So we started with the card pool after round 12 from season 7, but we added all uncommon cards to the playable options.
From there, we continued the banathon, so the banned list grew further with each round, still changing the meta constantly.
We started with ALL UNCOMMON CARDS UNBANNED, so even the most broken uncommons could be played in round one. That didn't last long though.

For this season, we stuck to the scoring system from previous seasons:
All players score season points for all rounds they play. Season points for each round equal total points scored for the round, divided by the number of opponents in that round.
The tournament organizer will make calculations (or have Google Spreadsheet figure that stuff out) and keep track of standings below. Note: season points are always rounded to one decimal.
You will find the Google Spreadsheet for season 8 here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1CSew6pF0_3vW39YxEfO4RdCIpYzPqh2m96J70Cgvgc4/edit?usp=sharing

Standings for season 8 after the final round:
1. silkster: 48,5 - congrats on winning this season!!
2. dte: 48,2
3. maxx!: 40,7
4. FTW: 39,8
5. Asthereal (TO): 31,1
6. alphastryk: 30,4
7. GoblinSmashmaster: 30,2
8. Wrath of Pie: 29,4
9. Reeplcheep: 28,1
10. Tylert: 28
11. H: 23,4
12. jhhdk: 5,8
13. Karshtakavaar: 2,6

Direct links to posts with the decks for each round in the eighth season:
- Decks and discussion for round 12 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1089673&viewfull=1#post1089673)
- Decks and discussion for round 11 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1089489&viewfull=1#post1089489)
- Decks and discussion for round 10 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1089376&viewfull=1#post1089376)
- Decks and discussion for round 9 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1089168&viewfull=1#post1089168)
- Decks and discussion for round 8 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1089046&viewfull=1#post1089046)
- Decks and discussion for round 7 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1088902&viewfull=1#post1088902)
- Decks and discussion for round 6 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1088725&viewfull=1#post1088725)
- Decks and discussion for round 5 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1088471&viewfull=1#post1088471)
- Decks and discussion for round 4 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1088361&viewfull=1#post1088361)
- Decks and discussion for round 3 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1088225&viewfull=1#post1088225)
- Decks and discussion for round 2 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1088117&viewfull=1#post1088117)
- Decks and discussion for round 1 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1088007&viewfull=1#post1088007)



4 CARD BLIND - SEASON SEVEN: PAUPER BANNATHON

This season, we played twelve rounds of Pauper: only common cards allowed.
Also, we turned it into a bannathon, where after each round, the cards from the three best scoring decks in that round were added to the banned list. If more decks were tied for third, all cards from those were banned.
There is one exception to the bannings: basic lands DON'T get banned.

For this season, we used the scoring system from previous seasons:
All players score season points for all rounds they play. Season points for each round equal total points scored for the round, divided by the number of opponents in that round.
The tournament organizer will make calculations (or have Google Spreadsheet figure that stuff out) and keep track of standings below. Note: season points are always rounded to one decimal.
You will find the Google Spreadsheet for season 7 here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_CTH09KMbDIUsEk_2tnbLpso_42E_vexoQQRiFekTPs/edit?usp=sharing

Standings for season 7 after the final round:
1. FTW: 40,9 - Congrats on winning this one! :cool:
2. maxx!: 40,1
3. silkster: 37,9
4. H: 37,2
5. alphastryk: 31,4
6. Asthereal (TO): 30,3
7. GoblinSmashmaster: 29,9
8. Wrath of Pie: 27,7
9. Tylert: 25
10. dte: 16,8
11. Reeplcheep: 15,5
12. Moosedog: 12,5

Direct links to posts with the decks for each round in the seventh season:
- Decks and discussion for round 12 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1087589&viewfull=1#post1087589)
- Decks and discussion for round 11 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1087258&viewfull=1#post1087258)
- Decks and discussion for round 10 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1087093&viewfull=1#post1087093)
- Decks and discussion for round 9 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1086892&viewfull=1#post1086892)
- Decks and discussion for round 8 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1086783&viewfull=1#post1086783)
- Decks and discussion for round 7 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1086675&viewfull=1#post1086675)
- Decks and discussion for round 6 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1086546&viewfull=1#post1086546)
- Decks and discussion for round 5 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1086439&viewfull=1#post1086439)
- Decks and discussion for round 4 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1086301&viewfull=1#post1086301)
- Decks and discussion for round 3 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1086190&viewfull=1#post1086190)
- Decks and discussion for round 2 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1086048&viewfull=1#post1086048)
- Decks and discussion for round 1 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1085949&viewfull=1#post1085949)


4 CARD BLIND - SEASON SIX: DEVIANT LEGACY

This season, we played 12 rounds of Legacy, but with a twist: every round had a special rule which changes how Magic (and 4CB) would normally work.
We used a fixed banned list for every round, which you will find in the second post (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1064264&viewfull=1#post1064264) of this thread.
Additionally, each round contained its own bannings when we deemed those necessary, which were in the rules for that round when relevant.

For this season, we again stuck to the scoring system from previous seasons:
All players score season points for all rounds they play. Season points for each round equal total points scored for the round, divided by the number of opponents in that round.
The tournament organizer will make calculations (or have Google Spreadsheet figure that stuff out) and keep track of standings below. Note: season points are always rounded to one decimal.
You will find the Google Spreadsheet for season 6 here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1f-qiQO5pT3MxEUhM8q63vP5HJuweZ_EmteCqSu2a9t4/edit?usp=sharing

The schedule:
- Round 1: Astroturf - Each player has this ability: Discard a card: create land token named "Astroturf", which has "T: add 2 mana of any one color". This ability can only be played at any time you could play a sorcery. Additional bannings: All cards that can make an opponent discard or otherwise remove from his or her hand more than one card at the same time.
- Round 2: Commander - Each player submits a legendary creature as fifth card and commander with their regular 4 card deck, the commander starts in the command zone and the games are played out as they would in regular 4 card blind, but combined with commander rules: Players start with 30 life, players lose when they receive 21 or more commander damage, commanders can be played from the command zone, if a commander dies or leaves the battlefield, it can be exiled into the command zone but will cost an additional 2 generic mana to cast each time it is exiled to the command zone, players can only use cards that either match colors of their commander or are colorless and do not contain mana symbols of other colors. All cards can be played only once except for basic lands. Additional banning: Karakas.
- Round 3: Tribal - Each deck needs to have at least two creature cards of the same creature type. No additional bannings.
Round 4: Russian Life Poker - Each player submits a life total between 1 and 30 with their deck, in each match the player with the lowest bid for life total is on the play in both games, if players submitted the same bid, the match is played out normally with both players one game on the play. No additional bannings.
- Round 5: Take Five - During the first 5 turns of the game, players can't lose the game, lose life or get poison counters. (Counting of the turns works as follows: player A gets turn 1, player B then gets turn 2, player A gets turn 3, player B gets turn 4 and player A gets turn 5. So when player A is on the play, player B will be the first to be able to deal damage and so on.) Addition bannings: Pact of Negation, Pact of the Titan, Slaughter Pact.
- Round 6: Deja vu - All spells can be cast from graveyards as well. If you do, the card gains "if this card would be put in a graveyard, exile it instead". (NB. This is a replacement effect.) Additional bannings: Dark Ritual, Lion's Eye Diamond, all cards that have or use the "storm" mechanic.
- Round 7: Pauper - Only commons can be played. Lowest rarity counts. Additional banning: Empty the Warrens
- Round 8: Storm Season - Your deck must lose 0-6 to Island, Plains, Storm Crow, Stormfront Pegasus. No additional bannings.
- Round 9: Blocked - All cards in your deck must come from the same block. No core sets or Modern Masters-like sets allowed. No additional bannings.
- Round 10: Life Support - Your starting life total is the total converted mana cost of all cards in your deck. No additional bannings.
- Round 11: 4.5 Card Blind - Each player submits a 5 card deck, the 5th card is only played in the game when you are on the draw, the fifth card has to be specified otherwise the tournament organizer will specify the fith card submitted as the card that will only be played on the draw. No additional bannings.
- Round 12 (finale): Medallion - All spells cost one generic mana less to cast. Addition bannings: Sensei's Divining Top.

Standings for season 6 after the final round:
1. Wrath of Pie: 41,6 - congrats on winning this one by literally the smallest of margins!
2. FTW: 41,5
3. Tylert: 38,2
4. Asthereal (TO): 35,7
5. silkster: 33,9
6. Moosedog: 29,1
7. alphastryk: 28
8. GoblinSmashmaster: 24,1
9. H: 22,6

Direct links to posts with the decks for each round in the sixth season:
- Decks and discussion for round 12 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1085807&viewfull=1#post1085807)
- Decks and discussion for round 11 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1085638&viewfull=1#post1085638)
- Decks and discussion for round 10 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1085042&viewfull=1#post1085042)
- Decks and discussion for round 9 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1084732&viewfull=1#post1084732)
- Decks and discussion for round 8 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1084560&viewfull=1#post1084560)
- Decks and discussion for round 7 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1084276&viewfull=1#post1084276)
- Decks and discussion for round 6 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1083953&viewfull=1#post1083953)
- Decks and discussion for round 5 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1083679&viewfull=1#post1083679)
- Decks and discussion for round 4 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1083496&viewfull=1#post1083496)
- Decks and discussion for round 3 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1083218&viewfull=1#post1083218)
- Decks and discussion for round 2 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1082940&viewfull=1#post1082940)
- Decks and discussion for round 1 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1082559&viewfull=1#post1082559)


4 CARD BLIND - SEASON FIVE: MODERN MADNESS

This season, we played 12 rounds of Modern, using a starting banned list you will find in the second post, and banning every winning deck after each round.
Except for basic lands, that is. Basic lands are always legal. But besides that, we will ban for further rounds every card from the deck that places first in any given round.
All cards that are noted in the Gatherer as "legal in Modern" are legal, AND all cards that are noted "banned in Modern" but don't appear in our banned list are also legal.
For this season, we stick to the scoring system from season 2, 3 and 4:
All players score season points for all rounds they play. Season points for each round equal total points scored for the round, divided by the number of opponents in that round.
The tournament organizer will make calculations (or have Google Spreadsheet figure that stuff out) and keep track of standings below. Note: season points are always rounded to one decimal.

You will find the Google Spreadsheet for season 5 here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ukrFBzZe9rxv2S7QjekHPZE2WyzvdyfFpC5o3owS6tU/edit?usp=sharing

Standings for season 5 after round 12:
1. Asthereal (TO): 41,8 <- congrats to me for winning this one! :cool:
2. FTW: 37,2
3. Tylert: 33,3
4. H: 32,6
5. Wrath of Pie: 24,7
6. Moosedog: 15,8
7. GoblinSmashmaster: 2,2


4 CARD BLIND - SEASON FOUR: The Block Tour - part 2

The schedule:
Round 1: Alara block (Shards of Alara, Conflux, Alara Reborn)
Round 2: Zendikar block (Zendikar, Worldwake, Rise of the Eldrazi)
Round 3: Scars of Mirrodin block (Scars of Mirrodin, Mirrodin Besieged, New Phyrexia)
Round 4: Innistrad block (Innistrad, Dark Ascension, Avacyn Restored)
Round 5: Return to Ravnica block (Return to Ravnica, Gatecrash, Dragon's Maze)
Round 6: Modern Core "block" (Magic Origins, Core Set 2019, Core Set 2020)
Round 7: Theros block (Theros, Born of the Gods, Journey into Nyx)
Round 8: Khans of Tarkir block (Khans of Tarkir, Fate Reforged, Dragons of Tarkir)
Round 9: Battle for Zendikar & Shadows over Innistrad block (Battle for Zendikar, Oath of the Gatewatch, Shadows over Innistrad, Eldritch Moon)
Round 10: Kaladesh & Amonkhet block (Kaladesh, Aether Revolt, Amonkhet, Hour of Devastation)
Round 11: Guilds of Ravnica block (Guilds of Ravnica, Ravnica Allegiance, War of the Spark)
Round 12 (finale): Modern Masters (Modern Masters, Modern Masters 2015, Modern Masters 2017)

The rules: no bannings, also no cards banned that were originally banned in the block, as 4CB is very different from normal MtG.
Scoring: same as season 2 & 3. Per round 3 points for a win, 1 for a draw. Season points are all points for a round, divided by the number of opponents.
You will find the Google Spreadsheet for season 4 here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Ldj3lc-vHqeVmcHclYWQckKx7hNGt_OB3vWwAIUPieU/edit?usp=sharing

Final Standings after the last round of The Block Tour part 2:
1. GoblinSmashmaster: 40,9 - congrats on winning this fourth season of 4CB!
2. Wrath of Pie: 32,5
3. Unlif3: 32
4. FTW: 32
5. square_two: 29,9
6. H: 29,1
7. Tylert: 27,6
8. Asthereal (TO): 27,2


4 CARD BLIND - SEASON THREE: The Block Tour

The schedule:
Round 1: Mirage block (Mirage, Visions, Weatherlight)
Round 2: Tempest block (Tempest, Stronghold, Exodus)
Round 3: Urza's Saga block (Urza's Saga, Urza's Legacy, Urza's Destiny)
Round 4: Mercadian Masques block (Mercadian Masques, Nemesis, Prophecy)
Round 5: Invasion block (Invasion, Planeshift, Apocalypse)
Round 6: Odyssey block (Odyssey, Torment, Judgment)
Round 7: Onslaught block (Onslaught, Legions, Scourge)
Round 8: Mirrodin block (Mirrodin, Darksteel, Fifth Dawn)
Round 9: Kamigawa block (Champions of Kamigawa, Betrayers of Kamigawa, Saviors of Kamigawa)
Round 10: Ravnica block (Ravnica, Guildpact, Dissension)
Round 11: Time Spiral block (Time Spiral, Planar Chaos, Future Sight)
Round 12 (finale): Lorwyn & Shadowmoor block (Lorwyn, Morningtide, Shadowmoor, Eventide)

The rules: no bannings, also no cards banned that were originally banned in the block, as 4CB is very different from normal MtG.
Scoring: same as season 2. Per round 3 points for a win, 1 for a draw. Season points are all points for a round, divided by the number of opponents.
You will find the Google Spreadsheet for season 3 here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cqj2NNYHn8u5ZU0Xy3Fwb9NC_mxVhKzq2NaDanpPvEs/edit?usp=sharing

Final standings for Season 3 - The Block Tour - part 1:
1. Asthereal (TO): 45,5 - congrats to myself for clinching this one! ^^
2. FTW: 40,3
3. Wrath of Pie: 35,8
4. GoblinSmashmaster: 33,3
5. Unlif3: 23,4
6. H: 23,1
7. Whoshim: 17,3
8. Tylert: 17,2
9. BirdsOfParadise: 6,3
10. apple713: 3,5


4 CARD BLIND - SEASON TWO: Vintage Bannathon

This season, we played 12 rounds of Vintage Bannathon. Barring Unglued, unhinged, conspiracy and ante cards, everything was unbanned at the start of the season.
After each round, we banned all cards from top scoring decks. This worked as follows:
- If a round had 12 or more participants, all cards from the top 5 scoring decks got banned for future rounds.
- If a round had 8, 9, 10 or 11 participants, all cards from the top 4 scoring decks got banned for future rounds.
- If a round had 7 or less participants, all cards from the top 3 scoring decks got banned for future rounds.
In this way, the banned list grew with each round, changing the meta, making new strategies viable. Keeping every round fresh.
And yes, for round one we got to play Black Lotus. It did not last long. :cool:

The Google Spreadsheet for season 2 can be found here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dEcNolWwENd5pJQhcrdAypX2P5If-sqZ-qEEfOUW2-E/edit?usp=sharing

Final standings for season 2, the Vintage Bannathon:
1. FTW: 48,6 - congrats on winning this second season of 4CB!
2. Asthereal (TO): 40,9
3. Wrath of Pie: 38,9
4. apple713: 33,5
5. GoblinSmashmaster: 31,7
6. Whoshim: 29,1
7. Tylert: 24,1
8. H: 20,5
9. Ace/Homebrew: 0,5
10. Lemon: 0,4


4 CARD BLIND - SEASON ONE (Legacy)

The spreadsheet for Season 1 is available: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1R3clgDErTCbN-l_Kd_stfhIjqDy3cu0FXRAhsS932l8/edit?usp=sharing

League table for Season 1 - Legacy

Final standings after the last round (8):
1. Wrath of Pie: 22 - congratulations are in order: Wrath takes the season! Well done. :smile:
2. Tylert: 16
3. apple713: 11
4. JackaBo: 10
4. Asthereal (TO): 10
6. FTW: 7
7. phonics: 6
8. PirateKing: 5
9. Taconaut: 2
9. tescrin: 2
9. spirit of the wretch: 2
9. kombatkiwi: 2
13. JosefK: 1
14. Clx33: 0
14. Sloshthedark: 0
14. CptHaddock: 0
14. Kap'n Cook: 0
14. H: 0
14. Matsu: 0
14. Mr. Safety: 0
14. Fallen_Empire: 0
14. mistercakes: 0
14. beardstorm: 0
14. Dan Pyre: 0
14. spartan117: 0
14. ronco: 0
14. Darklingske: 0
14. Ace/Homebrew: 0
14. PapriNgomo: 0
14. Strawberry Dwarf: 0

[Asthereal]

Banned list for the Vintage Creatureless Bannathon (season 12) (version current since July 19th 2022, after the final round)

Banned are:
- All Creature Cards
- All cards that reference "Ante" http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&text=+%5b%22%20ante.%22%5d
- All cards that have card type "conspiracy" http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&special=true&type=+%5b%22Conspiracy%22%5d
- All cards from the sets Unglued, Unhinged, Unstable and future "Un"-sets
- All cards that require physical dexterity to use
- All cards that create subgames within the ongoing game of Magic
- Schemes, Planes, Contraptions, and other cards that were never printed as playables in competitive Magic.

And these individual cards:
Academy Ruins
Agonizing Remorse
An Offer You Can't Refuse
Ancient Tomb
Angel's Grace
Army of the Damned
Ashiok, Nightmare Muse
Assassin's Trophy
Azorius Chancery
Badlands
Balance
Barren Glory
Bitterblossom
Black Lotus
Black Market Connections
Blackcleave Cliffs
Blackmail
Blinkmoth Nexus
Boros Garrison
Boseiju Who Endures
Botanical Sanctum
Bottomless Vault
Burning Inquiry
Cabal Therapy
Calciform Pools
Castigate
Cathedral of War
Cave of the Frost Dragon
Chain of Smog
Chalice of the Void
Chandra, Awakened Inferno
Channel
Chimeric Idol
Chrome Mox
City of Traitors
Collective defiance
Colossus Hammer
Commandeer
Conjurer's Bauble
Convincing Mirage
Courier's Briefcase
Court of Grace
Crack the Earth
Crashing Footfalls
Cruel Reality
Cry of Contrition
Crystal Vein
Culling Scales
Culling the Weak
Curse of Leeches
Curse of Silence
Dark Deal
Dark Depths
Dark Ritual
Darkmoss Bridge
Darkslick Shores
Darksteel Citadel
Davriel, Rogue Shadowmage
Daze
Den of the Bugbear
Detention Sphere
Devour Intellect
Disrupting Shoal
Donate
Dread Fugue
Dreadhorde Invasion
Dreadship Reef
Drill Bit
Dunes of the Dead
Duress
Dust Bowl
Dwarven Hold
Dwarven Ruins
Ebon Stronghold
Elixir of Immortality
Empty the Warrens
Encroach
Energy Field
Engineered Explosives
Ensoul Artifact
Evil Presence
Faerie Conclave
Feldon's Cane
Field of Ruin
Finale of Glory
Foil
Forbidden Orchard
Force of Negation
Force of Vigor
Force of Will
Forget
Form of the Dragon
Fountain of Cho
From Under the Floorboards
Funeral Charm
Fungal Reaches
Gather the townsfolk
Gemstone Mine
Gerrard's Verdict
Ghost Quarter
Gideon of the Trials
Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai
Golgari Rot Farm
Gut Shot
Hall of Heliod's Generosity
Hall of Storm Giants
Hellion Crucible
Hickory Woodlot
Hidetsugu Consumes All
Hive of the Eye Tyrant
Hollow Trees
Hymn to Tourach
Icatian Store
Illness in the Ranks
Induced Amnesia
Inkmoth Nexus
Inquisition of Kozilek
Irrigation ditch
Izzet Boilerworks
Jace, Wielder of Mysteries
Jeweled Amulet
Karakas
Karn Liberated
Karn, Scion of Urza
Karn, the Great Creator
Kasmina, Enigmatic Mentor
Keldon Megaliths
Khalni Garden
Kuldotha Rebirth
Lair of the Hydra
Leyline of Anticipation
Leyline of Sanctity
Leyline of Singularity
Lingering Souls
Lion's Eye Diamond
Liquimetal Coating
Lotus Bloom
Lotus Petal
Lush Growth
Mana Crypt
Mana Vault
Manifold Key
March of Otherworldly Light
Martial Coup
Maze of Ith
Mental Misstep
Mercadian Bazaar
Mind Swords
Mishra's Workshop
Mishra’s Factory
Mistvault Bridge
Mistveil plains
Molten Slagheap
Mox Emerald
Mox Jet
Mox Pearl
Mox Ruby
Mox Sapphire
Mu Yanling, Sky Dancer
Mutavault
Noxious Revival
Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
Okiba Reckoner Raid
Oko, Thief of Crowns
Pact of Negation
Pact of the Titan
Paradox Zone
Path to Exile
Peat Bog
Pithing Needle
Powder Keg
Prismari Command
Rain of Filth
Ranger Class
Ratchet Bomb
Raven’s Crime
Raze
Recruit the Worthy
Remote Farm
Restore Balance
Retrofitter Foundry
Rhonas's Last Stand
Rise and Shine
Rite of Flame
Roar of the Wurm
Ruins of Trokair
Rustvale Bridge
Sandstone Needle
Sandwurm convergence
Saprazzan Cove
Saprazzan Skerry
Sarcomancy
Sarkhan the Masterless
Sea Gate Restoration
Sea's Claim
Seal of Cleansing
Seal of Fire
Serenity
Shadowblood Ridge
Shark Typhoon
Sheltered valley
Show and tell
Shrieking Affliction
Sigarda's Aid
Simic Growth Chamber
Sinkhole
Sol Ring
Specter's Shriek
Sphere of Resistance
Strike It Rich
Strip Mine
Subterranean Hangar
Sunken Ruins
Tel-Jilad Stylus
The Blackstaff of Waterdeep
The Eldest Reborn
The Rack
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Thespian's Stage
Thorn of Amethyst
Thoughtseize
Tolarian Academy
Tomb of Urami
Treetop Village
Tremble
Tribute to Horobi
Trinisphere
Tropical Island
Tundra
Underground Sea
Undiscovered Paradise
Unmask
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Urza's Saga
Vault of the Archangel
Vicious Rumors
Void Snare
Warlock Class
Wasteland
Wheel of Fortune
Wheel of Sun and Moon
Wind Zendikon
Windfall
Wistful Thinking
Words of Wilding
Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth


-------------------------------------------------


Banned list for the Legacy Creatures & Lands Bannathon (season 11) (version current since March 8th 2022, after the final round)

Banned are:
- All cards that reference "Ante" http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&text=+%5b%22%20ante.%22%5d
- All cards that have card type "conspiracy" http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&special=true&type=+%5b%22Conspiracy%22%5d
- All cards from the sets Unglued, Unhinged, Unstable and future "Un"-sets
- All cards that require physical dexterity to use
- All cards that create subgames within the ongoing game of Magic
- Schemes, Planes, Contraptions, and other cards that were never printed as playables in competitive Magic.

And these individual cards:
Acquisitions Expert
Akki Blizzard-Herder
Ancient Den
Ancient Spring
Ancient Tomb
Badlands
Barbed Shocker
Bayou
Bazaar of Baghdad
Blackcleave cliffs
Blazing Rootwalla
Bonecrusher Giant
Brain Maggot
Brazen Borrower
Brutal Cathar
Cabal Therapist
Cenn's Tactician
Chancellor of the Annex
Chancellor of the Forge
Chancellor of the Tangle
Chronomaton
City of Traitors
Concealed Courtyard
Copperline Gorge
Creeping Tar Pit
Crystal Vein
Dark Depths
Death's Shadow
Dreadship Reef
Dunes of the Dead
Durkwood Baloth
Ebon Stronghold
Eldrazi Mimic
Eldrazi Temple
Elvish Spirit Guide
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Endless One
Endurance
Eye of Ugin
Field of Ruin
Forge Devil
Fourth Bridge Prowler
Frost Titan
Frostling
Fulminator Mage
Fume Spitter
Fungal Reaches
Fury
Geier Reach Sanitarium
Gemstone Mine
Ghost Quarter
Giver of Runes
Glint Hawk
Gnottvold Slumbermound
Goblin Welder
Goldmire Bridge
Golgari Guildmage
Great Furnace
Greater Gargadon
Grief
Grist, The Hunger Tide
Hall of Storm Giants
Hangarback Walker
Hexdrinker
Hickory Woodlot
Howltooth Hollow
Hunted Horror
Hushbringer
Icatian Javelineers
Inkmoth Nexus
Insolent Neonate
Karakas
Laboratory Maniac
Lavabrink Venturer
Liliana's Steward
Lupine Prototype
Magus of the Moon
Master of the Feast
Mayor of Avabruck
Maze of Ith
Meddling Mage
Mesmeric Fiend
Miasmic mummy
Mishra's Factory
Mishra’s Workshop
Mogg Fanatic
Molten Slagheap
Mother of Runes
Murderous Rider
Mutavault
Myr Superion
Necrotic Sliver
Nether Spirit
Nezumi Shortfang
Nils, discipline enforcer
Noxious Gearhulk
Old-Growth Dryads
Orzhov Basilica
Peat Bog
Pendelhaven
Phantasmal Image
Phyrexian Dreadnought
Phyrexian Revoker
Phyrexian Tower
Plateau
Priest of Fell Rites
Priest of the Blessed Graf
Quicksand
Rakdos carnarium
Ramunap Excavator
Rankle, Master of Pranks
Raugrin Triome
Reef Shaman
Remote Farm
Rishadan Dockhand
Rishadan Port
Rotting Regisaur
Ruins of Trokair
Sandstone Needle
Saprazzan Cove
Saprazzan skerry
Scion of Draco
Scrubland
Serra's Emissary
Shadow Guildmage
Shelldock Isle
Sheltered Valley
Simian Spirit Guide
Solitude
Sower of Temptation
Steel Overseer
Stormscape Apprentice
Strip Mine
Svyelunite Temple
Swarm Shambler
Taiga
Tendo Ice Bridge
Thassa's Oracle
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Thought-Knot Seer
Tidal Warrior
Tide Shaper
Tidehollow Sculler
Tinder Wall
Tireless Tribe
Tocatli Honor Guard
Tomb of Urami
True-Name Nemesis
Underground River
Undiscovered Paradise
Urza's Saga
Utopia Mycon
Valki, God of Lies
Vedalken Plotter
Vengevine
Volrath's Stronghold
Voltaic Servant
Walking Ballista
Wasteland
Wild Cantor
Yidaro, Wandering Monster



-------------------------------------


Banned list for Legacy (seasons 1, 6, 9 and 10) (version current since September 22nd 2021)

Banned are:
- All cards that reference "Ante" http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&text=+%5b%22%20ante.%22%5d
- All cards that have card type "conspiracy" http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&special=true&type=+%5b%22Conspiracy%22%5d
- All cards from the sets Unglued, Unhinged, Unstable and future "Un"-sets
- All cards that require physical dexterity to use
- All cards that create subgames within the ongoing game of Magic
- Schemes, Planes, Contraptions, and other cards that were never printed as playables in competitive Magic.

And these individual cards:
Assassin's Trophy
Balance
Barbed Shocker
Black Lotus
Blackmail
Blazing Shoal
Burning Inquiry
Cabal Therapy
Chain of Smog
Chancellor of the Annex
Channel
Curse of Silence
Dark Deal
Dark Depths
Delirium Skeins
Elixir of Immortality
Fastbond
Field of Ruin
Flash
Force of Will
Gerrard's Verdict
Ghost Quarter
Hymn to Tourach
Induced Amnesia
Inquisition of Kozilek
Jace, Wielder of Mysteries
Laboratory Maniac
Leyline of Anticipation
Leyline of Singularity
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lupine Prototype
Mana Crypt
Mana Drain
Mana Vault
Mental Misstep
Mind Rake
Mind Swords
Mind Twist
Mishra’s Workshop
Mox Emerald
Mox Jet
Mox Pearl
Mox Ruby
Mox Sapphire
Oko, Thief of Crowns
Shelldock Isle
Show and Tell
Sol Ring
Strip Mine
Thassa's Oracle
The Rack
Thoughtseize
Time Vault
Time Walk
Wasteland
Wheel of Fortune
Windfall
Wistful Thinking

Updates will be posted below, for documentation purposes.
This banned list is work in progress and will be updated when necessary.

Update feb 14th 2019: Unbanned are Raze, Force of Will (reason: 2 for 1, should not be overpowered), Duress (reason: narrow enough).
Update feb 23rd 2019: Unbanned is: Mental Misstep (now officially, but on watch list). Banned are: Cabal Therapy, Blackmail, The Rack. Also made a complete banned list to reduce confusion.
Update mar 8th 2019: Lupine Prototype is now banned.
Update mar 22nd 2019: Field of Ruin is now banned.
Update mar 28th 2019: Dark Ritual, Reanimate, Trinisphere and Daze are unbanned. Shelldock Isle is banned.
Update apr 5th 2020: Thassa's Oracle, Force of Will, Mental Misstep, Hymn to Tourach, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries and Blazing Shoal are banned.
Update may 2nd 2020: Gerrard's Verdict, Chain of Smog and Delirium Skeins are now banned.
Update may 8th 2020: Mind Rake and Dark Deal are now banned.
Update may 17th 2020: Leyline of Singularity is banned.
Update jun 7th 2020: Mind Swords is banned.
Update jan 16th 2021: Leyline of Anticipation is banned.
Update feb 7th 2021: Oko, Thief of Crowns is banned.
Update feb 16th 2021: Ancestral Recall, Earthcraft, Oath of Druids, Shahrazad, Timetwister, Tinker, Tolarian Academy and Yawgmoth's Will are unbanned. Added general rules to the banned list for dexterity and subgame cards.
Update feb 21st 2021: Lion's Eye Diamond, Elixir of Immortality and Barbed Shocker are now banned.
Update feb 28th 2021: Induced Amnesia and Wistful Thinking are now banned.
Update mar 9th 2021: Assassin's Trophy is now banned.


------------------------------------


Banned list for Deviant Legacy Bannathon - season 10 (version current since October 18th 2021, after the final round)

Banned are:
- All cards that reference "Ante" http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&text=+%5b%22%20ante.%22%5d
- All cards that have card type "conspiracy" http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&special=true&type=+%5b%22Conspiracy%22%5d
- All cards from the sets Unglued, Unhinged, Unstable and future "Un"-sets
- All cards that require physical dexterity to use
- All cards that create subgames within the ongoing game of Magic
- All cards that are only released on MtG Arena and never saw a paper release
- Schemes, Planes, Contraptions, and other cards that were never printed as playables in competitive Magic.

And these individual cards:
Aether Vial
Agadeem's Awakening
Ancient Spring
Ancient Tomb
Archon of Cruelty
Asmoranomardicadaistinaculdacar
Assassin's Trophy
Balance
Barbed Shocker
Bitterblossom
Black Lotus
Blackmail
Blazing Shoal
Burning Inquiry
Cabal Therapist
Cabal Therapy
Chain of Smog
Chancellor of the Annex
Chancellor of the Forge
Chancellor of the Tangle
Channel
Chronomaton
City of Traitors
Cleansing Wildfire
Collective Defiance
Collector Ouphe
Containment Priest
Crashing Footfalls
Crystal Vein
Curse of Silence
Dark Deal
Dark Depths
Dark Ritual
Darksteel Citadel
Daze
Death's shadow
Delirium Skeins
Deputy of Detention
Dismember
Dryad Arbor
Dunes of the Dead
Duress
Eldrazi Temple
Elixir of Immortality
Elvish Spirit Guide
Empty the Warrens
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Ensnaring Bridge
Esper Charm
Evil Presence
Eye of Ugin
Fastbond
Fatal Push
Field of Ruin
Flash
Foil
Force of Negation
Force of Will
Frilled Mystic
Fulminator Mage
Fury
Geier Reach Sanitarium
Gerrard's Verdict
Ghost Quarter
Great Furnace
Grief
Grim monolith
Grist, the Hunger Tide
Hangarback Walker
Heart of Kiran
Hexdrinker
Hickory Woodlot
Hymn to Tourach
Induced Amnesia
Inkmoth Nexus
Inquisition of Kozilek
Jace, Wielder of Mysteries
Judge's Familiar
Kuldotha Rebirth
Laboratory Maniac
Leyline of Anticipation
Leyline of Sanctity
Leyline of Singularity
Leyline of the Meek
Leyline of the Void
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lodestone Golem
Lotus Petal
Lupine Prototype
Lush Growth
Magus of the Moon
Mana Crypt
Mana Drain
Mana Vault
Mardu Charm
Mausoleum Wanderer
Mayor of Avabruck
Meddling Mage
Memnite
Mental Misstep
Mesmeric Fiend
Mind Rake
Mind Swords
Mind Twist
Mishra’s Workshop
Mox Emerald
Mox Jet
Mox Pearl
Mox Ruby
Mox Sapphire
Mutavault
Myr Superion
Narset's Reversal
Nether Spirit
Nicol Bolas, Dragon-God
Oko, Thief of Crowns
Old-Growth Dryads
Orim's chant
Path to Exile
Peat Bog
Phyrexian Dreadnought
Phyrexian Revoker
Phyrexian tower
Putrid Imp
Raze
Reanimate
Rite of Flame
Sandstone Needle
Savage Summoning
Scalding Tongs
Scourge of the Skyclaves
Scrubland
Sea's Claim
Shatterskull Smashing
Shelldock Isle
Show and Tell
Simian Spirit Guide
Sleeper Agent
Smallpox
Sol Ring
Solitude
Specter's Shriek
Sphere of Resistance
Steel Overseer
Strip Mine
Stronghold Gambit
Subtlety
Surgical Extraction
Swarm Shambler
Swords to Plowshares
Taiga
Tarnished Citadel
Thallid
Thassa's Oracle
The Rack
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Thorn of Amethyst
Thought-Knot Seer
Thoughtseize
Tidehollow Sculler
Time Vault
Time Walk
Tinder Wall
Trinisphere
Tropical Island
Turntimber Symbiosis
Twilight Mire
Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
Undiscovered Paradise
Undying Evil
Unmask
Urza's Saga
Vampire of the Dire Moon
Vapor Snag
Wasteland
Wheel of Fortune
Windfall
Wistful Thinking
Wrenn and Six


----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Banned list for Season 8: Peasant Continued Bannathon (version current since January 2nd, after the final round)

Banned are:
- All cards that reference "Ante" http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&text=+%5b%22%20ante.%22%5d
- All cards that have card type "conspiracy" http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&special=true&type=+%5b%22Conspiracy%22%5d
- All cards from the sets Unglued, Unhinged and Unstable

And these individual cards:
Akrasan Squire
Akroan Crusader
Ancient Den
Ancient Tomb
Azorius Chancery
Barbed Shocker
Beckon Apparition
Benevolent Bodyguard
Blackmail
Bladeback Sliver
Blazing Volley
Blighted Agent
Bojuka Bog
Bone Picker
Bonesplitter
Burning Inquiry
Burning-Tree Emissary
Cabal Therapy
Canker Abomination
Carrion Feeder
Cast Down
Cenn's Tactician
Chain Lightning
Chronomaton
Cleansing Wildfire
Conjurer's Bauble
Corpulent Corpse
Corrupted Zendikon
Crack the Earth
Crookshank Kobolds
Cry of Contrition
Culling the Weak
Dark Ritual
Darksteel Citadel
Daze
Deathspore Thallid
Deftblade Elite
Desert
Disowned Ancestor
Divest
Duress
Durkwood Baloth
Edge of the Divinity
Elixir of Immortality
Errant Ephemeron
Esper Stormblade
Essence Flare
Evil Presence
Exhume
Faultgrinder
Feldon's Cane
Firewild Borderpost
Floodbringer
Force of Will
Forced Adaptation
Fountain of Cho
Fourth Bridge Prowler
Fume Spitter
Funeral Charm
Gather the Townsfolk
Gearsmith Prodigy
Geth's Verdict
Ghitu Lavarunner
Ghost Quarter
Gideon's Lawkeeper
Gladecover Scout
Glint Hawk
Gobhobbler Rats
Granger Guildmage
Great Furnace
Grim Initiate
Gruul Turf
Healer's Hawk
Hickory Woodlot
Hired Poisoner
Icatian Javelineers
Infiltrator il-Kor
Innocent Blood
Inquisition of Kozilek
Invisible Stalker
Irrigation Ditch
Isochron Scepter
Ivory Giant
Izzet Boilerworks
Jackal Pup
Journey to Nowhere
Judge's Familiar
Keldon Halberdier
Keldon Megaliths
Khalni Garden
Knight of Old Benalia
Knight of Sursi
Kobolds of Kher Keep
Kor Skyfisher
Kuldotha Rebirth
Laboratory Maniac
Lava Dart
Law-Rune Enforcer
Lightning Bolt
Liliana's Steward
Lotus Petal
Lush Growth
Mana Chains
Mark of Fury
Mental Misstep
Mesmeric fiend
Miasmic Mummy
Mind Swords
Mishra's Factory
Mistblade Shinobi
Mistveil Plains
Mistvein Borderpost
Moan of the Unhallowed
Mortuary Mire
Myr Servitor
Night Market Lookout
Nip Gwyllion
Oblivion Ring
Oppressive Rays
Ornithopter
Ostracize
Paralyze
Path to Exile
Peat Bog
Phantasmal Bear
Phantasmal Terrain
Phyrexian Walker
Piracy Charm
Plagued Rusalka
Porcelain Legionnaire
Primal Cocoon
Putrid Imp
Quicksand
Rakdos Carnarium
Raven's Crime
Raze
Reality Acid
Reanimate
Reef Shaman
Remote Farm
Rimebound Dead
Rite of Flame
Rogue Elephant
Sacred Cat
Sandstone Needle
Saprazzan Skerry
Satyr Hoplite
Scavenger Folk
Scythe Tiger
Sea's Claim
Seal of Fire
Seat of the Synod
Shamble Back
Shield Sphere
Shrieking Affliction
Sigil of Sleep
Simian Spirit Guide
Simic Growth Chamber
Sinkhole
Skittering Heartstopper
Skittering Skirge
Skyshroud Cutter
Slippery Bogle
Slither Blade
Snuff Out
Soldevi Sentry
Sparksmith
Spindrift Drake
Sprout Swarm
Squirrel Nest
Steadfast Sentinel
Stone Rain
Strip Mine
Subterranean Hangar
Sunscorched Desert
Tasseled Dromedary
Taste for Mayhem
Tel-Jilad Stylus
Tendrils of Despair
Thallid
The Rack
Thornbow Archer
Thunderclap
Tidal Warrior
Tin Street Hooligan
Tremble
Typhoid Rats
Ulamog’s Crusher
Unearth
Unstable Mutation
Utopia Mycon
Vampire Lacerator
Vault Skirge
Vendetta
Vile Rebirth
Viscerid Deepwalker
Wasteland
Wind Zendikon
Wind-Scarred Crag
Wingcrafter
Wistful Thinking
Wretched Banquet
Young Wolf
Acidic Slime
Cauldron Familiar
Dismember
Force Spike
Orcish Lumberjack
Pharika’s Chosen
Witch’s Oven
Zulaport Duelist

--------

Banned list for Season 7: Pauper Bannathon (version current since September 21st, after the final round)

Banned are:
- All cards that reference "Ante" http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&text=+%5b%22%20ante.%22%5d
- All cards that have card type "conspiracy" http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&special=true&type=+%5b%22Conspiracy%22%5d
- All cards from the sets Unglued, Unhinged and Unstable

And these individual cards:
Akroan Crusader
Ancient Den
Beckon Apparition
Benevolent Bodyguard
Blazing Volley
Blighted Agent
Bone Picker
Bonesplitter
Burning Inquiry
Burning-Tree Emissary
Canker Abomination
Carrion Feeder
Corpulent Corpse
Crack the Earth
Crookshank Kobolds
Cry of Contrition
Culling the Weak
Dark Ritual
Daze
Desert
Disowned Ancestor
Divest
Duress
Durkwood Baloth
Edge of the Divinity
Errant Ephemeron
Esper Stormblade
Essence Flare
Evil Presence
Exhume
Feldon's Cane
Floodbringer
Forced Adaptation
Fume Spitter
Funeral Charm
Gearsmith Prodigy
Gladecover Scout
Glint Hawk
Gobhobbler Rats
Great Furnace
Grim Initiate
Healer's Hawk
Ivory Giant
Jackal Pup
Journey to Nowhere
Keldon Halberdier
Khalni Garden
Kobolds of Kher Keep
Kor Skyfisher
Kuldotha Rebirth
Lava Dart
Lightning Bolt
Liliana's Steward
Lotus Petal
Mana Chains
Mark of Fury
Miasmic Mummy
Mind Swords
Mistvein Borderpost
Myr Servitor
Nip Gwyllion
Oppressive Rays
Ornithopter
Peat Bog
Phyrexian Walker
Piracy Charm
Primal Cocoon
Quicksand
Rakdos Carnarium
Raven's Crime
Raze
Reef Shaman
Remote Farm
Rimebound Dead
Rogue Elephant
Sandstone Needle
Satyr Hoplite
Scythe Tiger
Sea's Claim
Seal of Fire
Seat of the Synod
Shamble Back
Sigil of Sleep
Simian Spirit Guide
Simic Growth Chamber
Sinkhole
Skittering Heartstopper
Skittering Skirge
Skyshroud Cutter
Slippery Bogle
Slither Blade
Snuff Out
Soldevi Sentry
Spindrift Drake
Sprout Swarm
Tasseled Dromedary
Tendrils of Despair
Tidal Warrior
Tremble
Ulamog’s Crusher
Unstable Mutation
Vampire Lacerator
Vault Skirge
Vendetta
Vile Rebirth
Viscerid Deepwalker
Wind Zendikon

--------

Banned list for Modern (version current since apr 2nd 2020, after S05R12)

Blackmail
Burning Inquiry
Chancellor of the Annex
Dark Depths
Field of Ruin
Ghost Quarter
Inquisition of Kozilek
Laboratory Maniac
Lupine Prototype
Shelldock Isle
Thassa's Oracle
The Rack
Thoughtseize

Blazing Shoal
Cenn's Tactician
Crashing Footfalls
Greater Gargadon
Inkmoth Nexus
Mental Misstep
Razorverge Thicket
Aether Vial
Chancellor of the Tangle
Myr Superion
Deputy of Detention
Eldrazi Temple
Eye of Ugin
Thought-Knot Seer
Akoum Refuge
Grove of the Burnwillows
Punishing Fire
Assassin's Trophy
Chronomaton
Cry of Contrition
Fume Spitter
Electrodominance
Keldon Halberdier
Lotus Bloom
Restore Balance
Blinkmoth Nexus
Quicksand
Steel Overseer
Golgari Rot Farm
Treetop Village
Elixir of Immortality
Abrupt Decay
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Mutavault
Shrieking Affliction
Smallpox
Stomping Ground
Durkwood Baloth
Hexdrinker
Lava Dart
Blackcleave Cliffs
Evil Presence
Cruel Sadist
Forge Devil
Calciform Pools
Celestial Colonnade
Jace, Wielder of Mysteries
Path to Exile

-------

Banned list for the Vintage Bannathon (final version after the conclusion of the second season of 4CB)

Banned are:
- All cards that reference "Ante" http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&text=+%5b%22%20ante.%22%5d
- All cards that have card type "conspiracy" http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&special=true&type=+%5b%22Conspiracy%22%5d
- All cards from the sets Unglued, Unhinged and Unstable

All other cards are unbanned at the start. Bannings occur for high scoring decks in each round. These have gotten the axe during season 2:
Aether vial
Ancient Tomb
Arcbound Ravager
Ashen Rider
Assassin's trophy
Badlands
Balance
Bayou
Black Lotus
Blackcleave Cliffs
Blackmail
Blazing Shoal
Blooming Marsh
Burning Inquiry
Cabal Therapy
Cenn's Tactician
Chancellor of the Annex
Chancellor of the Forge
Chancellor of the tangle
Channel
Chronatog
Chronomaton
City of Traitors
Contagion
Crashing Footfalls
Cruel Sadist
Crystal Vein
Curse of the Pierced Heart
Dark Deal
Dark Depths
Dark Ritual
Daze
Delirium Skeins
Deputy of detention
Dismember
Disrupting Shoal
Divest
Dread Wanderer
Durkwood Baloth
Electrodominance
Elixir of immortality
Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Encroach
Fastbond
Fatal Push
Flash
Foil
Force of Despair
Force of Negation
Force of Will
Forest
Ghost Quarter
Gitaxian Probe
Golgari Rot Farm
Greater Gargadon
Grove of the Burnwillows
Hammerheim
Hangarback Walker
Hexdrinker
Hired Poisoner
Inkmoth Nexus
Innocent Blood
Inquisition of Kozilek
Iona, Shield of Emeria
Island
Ivory Giant
Jace, Wielder of Mysteries
Karakas
Keldon Halberdier
Laboratory Maniac
Leyline of Anticipation
Leyline of Sanctity
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lotus Petal
Lupine Prototype
Lurebound Scarecrow
Mana Crypt
Mana Vault
Memnite
Mental Misstep
Mind Swords
Mishra's Factory
Mishra's Workshop
Mossfire Valley
Mox Emerald
Mox Jet
Mox Pearl
Mox Ruby
Mox Sapphire
Mutavault
Myr superion
Nether Spirit
Overgrown Tomb
Pardic Dragon
Path to Exile
Phantasmal Bear
Phyrexian Revoker
Piracy Charm
Powder Keg
Punishing Fire
Putrid Imp
Ratchet Bomb
Raze
Razorverge Thicket
Reanimate
Restore Balance
Ruins of Trokair
Sandstone Needle
Saprazzan Skerry
Savannah
Scrubland
Sea Drake
Selesnya Sanctuary
Show and Tell
Simian Spirit Guide
Skyshroud Cutter
Snapback
Snow-Covered Forest
Snow-Covered Island
Snow-Covered Swamp
Snuff Out
Sol Ring
Soldevi Sentry
Sphere of Resistance
Steel Overseer
Steppe Lynx
Strip Mine
Stromkirk Noble
Student of Warfare
Svyelunite Temple
Swamp
Thalakos Lowlands
The Rack
Thought-Knot Seer
Thoughtseize
Time Vault
Tolarian Academy
Treetop Village
Trinisphere
Tropical Island
Tundra
Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
Unburial Rites
Underground Sea
Undiscovered Paradise
Unmask
Vampire Hexmage
Volcanic Island
Voltaic Servant
Wasteland
Wheel of Fortune
Worldspine Wurm
Young Wolf

[Kap'n Cook]

Ancient Tomb, Petal, Show and Tell, Ape-rakul has to be up there right? Or 3x Petal + True-Skill Nemesis?

[Asthereal]

Ancient Tomb, Petal, Show and Tell, Ape-rakul has to be up there right? Or 3x Petal + True-Skill Nemesis?
Indeed, stuff like that we can live without. Show and Tell probably needs to be on the banning list.

I'm not too scared of True-Name Nemesis though. For example, it loses to the Heavyweights deck in the example. :cool:

[PirateKing]

Ancient Tomb, Petal, Show and Tell, Ape-rakul has to be up there right? Or 3x Petal + True-Skill Nemesis?

Both would lose to a deck that's Swamp, Dark Ritual, Pox, Nether Spirit

[Asthereal]

You guys are getting the hang of this. :smile:

So the banning list should probably contain:
- Raze
- Thoughtseize (and a few friends, those aren't fun)
- Force of Will
- Daze
- Show and Tell
- Dark Ritual
- Hymn to Tourach (looks obvious, probably Gerrard's Verdict isn't much fun either)

What else?

[Dice_Box]

My first thought was Swamp, Factory, Edict, Thoughtseize.

Wasteland is so good in this meta. You need your lands to be pulling double duty, so attacking them is like a two for one.

[PirateKing]

Hymn isn't as scary without Dark Ritual. Casting on turn 2 to get how many card realistically?
Thoughtrsieze and Duress I get, since that'll be a turn 1 kill most often, But even a Land-Petal-Hymn-CMC1 deck would probably lose on the draw against most decks, so it seems fair.

[Asthereal]

Right, I played mostly 4CB in Vintage, with Moxen legal, which made Hymn pretty insane.
Perhaps in Legacy it's okay. BUT... It's not fun. Maybe still ban it?

And yup, Wasteland is VERY good. Should probably ban that.

Edit: Edited the second post with a preliminary banning list for Legacy.

[Dice_Box]

Also Ghost Quarter. "You can fetch a basic, after I strip mine you..."

Wasteland is good, but has to be built around. I think it's fine.

Force is unlikely to actually see a ton of play. Two for one with only four cards? Good plan.

[PirateKing]

Well I mean just to start, can anybody thing up a 4 card hand that wins 20 life without creatures?
Milling doesn't work and storm combo seems... untenable.
So basically, who's creature sticks around wins right?

[Hanni]

If Thoughtseize, Wasteland, and Ghost Quarter are banned, then...

Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Duress
Dark Depths
Vampire Hexmage

Oops, looks like Duress and Inquisition are banned too. Something to protect the 20/20 then... Not of This World?

Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Dark Depths
Vampire Hexmage
Not of This World

Folds to Diabolic Edict, though.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Well I mean just to start, can anybody thing up a 4 card hand that wins 20 life without creatures?
Milling doesn't work and storm combo seems... untenable.
So basically, who's creature sticks around wins right?
How about 2X Wasteland and 2X The Rack?

Also, I think we may miss out by jumping into a banned list early. More Cards = Better Time, right?

Having Mental Misstep neuters discard somewhat and that'd shorten the banned list. Thoughtseize and Misstep would be hugely powerful, but allowing both means other strategies would be viable. My Rack example is pretty immune to both...

Edit - Also, in the event of a tie, perhaps a tiebreaker could be 'who has the most life?'

[Hanni]

Does the four card thing allow multiples of the same card, or does it have to be 4 separate cards?

[Hanni]

Ancient Tomb
City of Traitors
Chalice of the Void
Thought-Knot Seer

[PirateKing]

Ancient Tomb
City of Traitors
Chalice of the Void
Thought-Knot Seer

Shit that's really good. Beats my Pox list on the play.

[Kap'n Cook]

Leyline of Anticipation, Simian Spirit Guide, Burning Inquiry, Basking Rootwalla


GG everyone



Only dies to Misstep?


#FreeNedleeds

[Ace/Homebrew]

Leyline of Anticipation, Simian Spirit Guide, Burning Inquiry, Basking Rootwalla


GG everyone



Only dies to Misstep?


#FreeNedleeds
Dies to Forest, 3X Basking Rootwalla. :tongue:

[Kap'n Cook]

Dies to Forest, 3X Basking Rootwalla. :tongue:

Haha true. I guess it’d have to be:

Leyline of anticipation
Simian spirit guide
Burning inquiry
Nether spirit

[mistercakes]

City of traitors, lotus petal, lab Maniac, street wraith.

[mistercakes]

4 of that red chancellor that makes a token or whatever it's called.

[ReAnimator]

I used to play a lot of 3 card blind on the old mana drain forums 10+ years ago. Didn't ever play 4CB. I'm down for doing this.

[Asthereal]

Excellent suggestions, everybody!
I've added a few cards to the temporary banning list.

The creativity in the decks posted so far is promising.
Looks like there's quite some interest in this, so I'd like to get this going. But first, how would we like to continue?

Let's vote:
A: We could discuss for a few more days and try to decide on a decent banning list.
B: We could do a "bannathon" where all cards are legal at the start, but all cards in all decks that won points for the round get banned next rounds.

Pros to A: We get more balanced games, which should be more fun in the long run.
Cons to A: If we mess up the bannings, we still end up with overpowered crap and may have to intervene halfway. (I am okay with this.)

Pros to B: We get to play all the insane stuff.
Cons to B: We have to deal with all the insane stuff. (I mean: as mentioned, 10 people sporting turn 0 Burning Inquiry.dec is kind of stupid, right?)

I personally lean somewhat to option A. What are your thoughts?



Does the four card thing allow multiples of the same card, or does it have to be 4 separate cards?
Yes, all normal rules apply, so you can play up to four of every card. The mentioned 4x Chancellor of the Forge deck is legal (unless we ban that damn thing).

[Dice_Box]

Some things just should be banned, like Ghost Quarter.

[Matsu]

if there are not discard are those decks legal:

Bog peat
Putrid imp
Reanimate
A Big Boy: Blazing Archon, Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, Griselbrand, Iona, Shield of Emeria, Sheoldred, Whispering One, Sphinx of the Steel Wind, Ashen Rider, Inkwell Leviathan.

or

Bog peat
Putrid imp
unearth
True skill nemesis

or
Crystal vein
Hickory Woodlot
Eureka
a big boy.... or Wurm Machine

[Asthereal]

if there are not discard are those decks legal:

Bog peat
Putrid imp
Reanimate
A Big Boy: Blazing Archon, Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, Griselbrand, Iona, Shield of Emeria, Sheoldred, Whispering One, Sphinx of the Steel Wind, Ashen Rider, Inkwell Leviathan.

or

Bog peat
Putrid imp
unearth
True skill nemesis

or
Crystal vein
Hickory Woodlot
Eureka
a big boy.... or Wurm Machine
So far, yes. We could ban Reanimate, but I think Eureka should be okay, as it costs you your entire game plan, and it only works from turn 2 on.
The Eureka deck draws against my Heavyweights deck, it loses to anything that causes you to discard a card and anything that manages to destroy/bounce your dude.
For instance, the Eureka deck gets absolutely trashed by these simple four: Chancellor of the Tangle, Gemstone Mine, Ravenous Rats, Path to Exile

EDIT: Actually, it doesn't. Eureka wins because you discard Emrakul, redraw it and then cast Eureka.
It does lose to anything sporting Oblivion Ring though, like: Remote Farm, City of Traitors, Elspeth, Knight-Errant, Oblivion Ring

[Mr. Safety]

Isn't Shelldock Isle just completely busted in this format? I didn't see it in any of the banlists, but I think it might have to be. It seems like even without Emrakul you could play something like Platinum Empirion or even Platinum Angel.

Shelldock Isle
Island
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Stubborn Denial

Shelldock Isle
Tundra
Platinum Angel
Swords to Plowshares


Wasn't there a format with 5-card blind called Doomsday or something like that? EDIT: The difference was the deck was shuffled and you started with zero cards in hand, so totally different concept I think.

[Asthereal]

Isn't Shelldock Isle just completely busted in this format? I didn't see it in any of the banlists, but I think it might have to be. It seems like even without Emrakul you could play something like Platinum Empirion or even Platinum Angel.

Shelldock Isle
Island
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Stubborn Denial

Shelldock Isle
Tundra
Platinum Angel
Swords to Plowshares

How do you get the creature in your library?
Note: we start every game with all cards in our hand.

[Mr. Safety]

How do you get the creature in your library?
Note: we start every game with all cards in our hand.

Well that's awkward, I didn't realize it started in hand, lol. DOH! Reading fail again.


Island
Brainstorm
Shelldock Isle
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

[Asthereal]

Well that's awkward, I didn't realize it started in hand, lol. DOH! Reading fail again. It just went from broken to unplayable, lol. I don't think there is a 1-mana card that puts a card on top of your library.
No problem. :wink:

If you find a good way to dump the creature in your library (in case of Emry, graveyard also works), Shelldock Isle might be too good.
It's definitely a card to watch. All cards that do crazy stuff for not so much mana can be absolutely busted.

EDIT:


Island
Brainstorm
Shelldock Isle
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn


This would turn into this:
T1: Island, cast Brainstorm, put in library Emrakul and on top of that Shelldock Isle.
T2: draw Isle, play Isle, exile Emrakul
T3: untap, use Isle to cast Emrakul, take extra turn.
T3-2: ATTACK!

So this loses to anything that stops Emrakul, destroys/hoses Shelldock or stops Brainstorm itself.
So it loses to my Heavyweights deck that can cast Aftershock on turn 2.
(Yes, I use that deck as example, as it is good, but not insanely overpowered.)

Note: I do need to play a tad precisely to win. If I cast Heavyweights when you sandbag the Brainstorm, I'm in trouble.
I have to Aftershock the Island first, so your deck doesn't function anymore. If you cast Brainstorm in response, I have to wait a few turns and only after you draw all the cards I cast Heavyweights.

[Mr. Safety]

No problem. :wink:

If you find a good way to dump the creature in your library (in case of Emry, graveyard also works), Shelldock Isle might be too good.
It's definitely a card to watch. All cards that do crazy stuff for not so much mana can be absolutely busted.

Brainstorm does it, but if there isn't a draw per turn Brainstorm doesn't work. Have to put both Shelldock and Emrakul back on top of library.

[Asthereal]

Brainstorm does it, but if there isn't a draw per turn Brainstorm doesn't work. Have to put both Shelldock and Emrakul back on top of library.
Actually, the Shelldock Isle deck also loses to the only turn 2 combo deck I know.
I won't spoil it, as I might be using it later. It's just too much fun. :cool:

[Mr. Safety]

Actually, the Shelldock Isle deck also loses to the only turn 2 combo deck I know.
I won't spoil it, as I might be using it later. It's just too much fun. :cool:

Thinking about it, this is stronger:

Island
Brainstorm
Shelldock Isle
Ashen Rider

[Matsu]

Some D&T

Plains
Rishadan port
Thalia
E/S spirit guide

Or

Plains
2x E/S spirit Guide
Big Thalia

Or

Mishra's factory
Thorn of amethyst
E/S spririt guide
Rishadan port

E-Stompy

Eye of ugin
3x Endless one

White Weenie:

Plains
Rishadan port
Cloudreach Cavalry
War Falcon

[Mr. Safety]

EDIT: *Super secret tech*

[genuine fugazi]

Lion's Eye Diamond
Lion's Eye Diamond
Unburial Rites
Iona, Shield of Emeria

[Matsu]

Infect anyone:

Forest
G-Elf
Berserk
Invigorate

or Bogles:

Savannah
Bogle
Gryffs boon
Ethereal armor or any cool Enchant crit.

[Asthereal]

Thinking about it, this is stronger:

Island
Brainstorm
Shelldock Isle
Ashen Rider

Rider dies to removal, so I don't know.


Can we submit more than one deck?
Nope, one per round.

[Mr. Safety]

I've already posted a ton of stuff, do I just need to pick one? If I need to pick one it would be the Ensnaring Bridge list. Wins on the play, draws on the draw against anything combat related.

[Asthereal]

I've already posted a ton of stuff, do I just need to pick one? If I need to pick one it would be the Ensnaring Bridge list. Wins on the play, draws on the draw against anything combat related.
If we start, I post a deadline and then people can PM me their decks.
It doesn't work if you post publicly, because others will find a deck that beats what you posted. :wink:

So far, I have had one response to my question about whether people prefer to work with a banned list or do a banathon.
I am a tad in favor of a banned list, so we're at 2x banned list, 0x banathon.

If we go for a seaon with a banned list, I can use some feedback on the list.
Looking at where we are now, I think it still needs a few additions.
Maybe Rishadan Port, Thought-Knot Seer, stuff like that. It's pretty hard.
Or I could just make a few educated guesses, and we play a season of, say, ten rounds and afterwards decide upon an improved ban list.

All fine by me, but feedback helps more than posting cool decks. Save your decks for the real thing! :wink:

[Ace/Homebrew]

I'm fine with a predetermined banned list to start, but I think Mental Misstep needs to be legal to act as 'policeman'. There needs to be some risk to going all-in.

[Asthereal]

I'm fine with a predetermined banned list to start, but I think Mental Misstep needs to be legal to act as 'policeman'. There needs to be some risk to going all-in.
Right now, Misstep isn't on the banned list.
I don't even think it's all that good, as most of the really dangerous stuff costs more than one mana.

[Kap'n Cook]

Hanni had already asked, but are we bound to singleton?

[Mr. Safety]

I say start with your already established list of cards in the first few posts as bans. All of them make a ton of sense. This way if someone is reading through the thread they won't be confused.

So for the first round I support doing this:

A: We could discuss for a few more days and try to decide on a decent banning list.


All cards currently on the banned list, plus:
- Raze
- Force of Will
- Daze
- Thoughtseize
- Duress
- Inquisition of Kozilek
- Wasteland
- Ghost Quarter
- Dark Depths
- Dark Ritual
- Show and Tell
- Burning Inquiry
- Laboratory Maniac
- Chancellor of the Annex
- Reanimate
- Trinisphere


That is plenty of restriction already. Busted interactions will become known soon enough.

[Ace/Homebrew]

All cards currently on the banned list, plus:
- Raze
- Force of Will
- Daze
- Thoughtseize
- Duress
- Inquisition of Kozilek
- Wasteland
- Ghost Quarter
- Dark Depths
- Dark Ritual
- Show and Tell
- Burning Inquiry
- Laboratory Maniac
- Chancellor of the Annex
- Reanimate
- Trinisphere


That is plenty of restriction already. Busted interactions will become known soon enough.
Why Force of Will? Seems pretty unplayable.
Duress feels pretty safe too.
And again, I'm going to lobby to allow Mental Misstep.

Also, I believe establishing a tiebreaker of 'highest life-total wins in the event of a draw' will reduce the number of draws.

[Hanni]

Why Force of Will? Seems pretty unplayable.
Duress feels pretty safe too.
And again, I'm going to lobby to allow Mental Misstep.

Also, I believe establishing a tiebreaker of 'highest life-total wins in the event of a draw' will reduce the number of draws.

I'm not sure I agree with allowing Duress, but Mental Misstep seems fine.

I agree with Force of Will not needing to be banned, and I like the tiebreaker rule.

I'm not sure that Raze is worth being banned either? Wasteland and Ghost Quarter make sense, but Raze costs two resources to deal with one land, which seems fine. There needs to be some sort of balanced way to deal with lands, no?

[Asthereal]

Hanni had already asked, but are we bound to singleton?
Nope. Unless a card is restricted for other reasons, all cards may be played four times.


I'm not sure I agree with allowing Duress, but Mental Misstep seems fine.
I agree with Force of Will not needing to be banned, and I like the tiebreaker rule.
I'm not sure that Raze is worth being banned either? Wasteland and Ghost Quarter make sense, but Raze costs two resources to deal with one land, which seems fine. There needs to be some sort of balanced way to deal with lands, no?
Force of Will is too good. It just is. The extra card isn't all that relevant if you get to stop (almost) anything.
Duress is on there because it's not fun, and because Seize and Inquisition are also on there. Besides, we don't need it.

Raze we might be able to allow back in, but it does completely screw almost every slow strategy, which is sad.

[Hanni]

Nope. Unless a card is restricted for other reasons, all cards may be played four times.


Force of Will is too good. It just is. The extra card isn't all that relevant if you get to stop (almost) anything.
Duress is on there because it's not fun, and because Seize and Inquisition are also on there. Besides, we don't need it.

Raze we might be able to allow back in, but it does completely screw almost every slow strategy, which is sad.

I mean, Smallpox is going to have a similar effect to hurting slow strategies. Swamp, Lotus Petal, Small Pox, Nether Spirit probably wrecks most decks.

[Ace/Homebrew]

What's an oppressive 4-card combo with FoW?

FoW
Blue Card
Presumably a land
A one-mana threat?

Either they counter your threat and can't protect theirs from your removal (and lose because they paid 1 life), or they protect their threat and have to hope it's bigger than yours...

Duress can only take a card that is enabling something broken. Lands and creatures are pretty fair.

[Asthereal]

I mean, Smallpox is going to have a similar effect to hurting slow strategies. Swamp, Lotus Petal, Small Pox, Nether Spirit probably wrecks most decks.
Smallpox might actually be banworthy.

But I sense adversion against many bannings.
So you guys would like FoW, Duress and Raze to stay in?
We could try the format with them and re-evaluate after a few rounds.

[Ace/Homebrew]

But I sense adversion against many bannings.
So you guys would like FoW, Duress and Raze to stay in?
We could try the format with them and re-evaluate after a few rounds.
I would prefer that! It's not like anyone has to own cards, and it appears each 'tournament' occurs pretty rapidly once the deck lists are revealed. Should be easy to spot offenders and take action based on results.

I'm getting pretty psyched for this honestly.

[kirkusjones]

Island
Shelldock Isle
Emrakul, the Aeon's Torn
Sphinx of Foresight

[CptHaddock]

The storage lands seem really broken in this format.

Cavern Harpy
Parasitic Strix
Aluren
Hollow Trees/Rushwood Grove

Dwarven Hold/Mercadian Bazaar
Sneak Attack
Emrakul
Chancellor of the Annex

1 more:

Icatian Store/ Fountain of Cho
Maze of Ith
Chancellor of the Annex
Misstep

[taconaut]

What's an oppressive 4-card combo with FoW?


I don't think it would be oppressive, but I was thinking something cute like:

Force of Will
Misthollow Griffin
Saprazzan Skerry
City of Traitors

Or something like that.

[PirateKing]

Just call it.
If something is broken it'll be 12-1 and you can ban it next week.
Enough thinktanking, let's throw down!

[CptHaddock]

Burning Inquiry seems busted too

Mountain
Burning Inquiry
Chancellor of the Annex
Memnite/Rootwalla or any other 0 mana 1/1

e: didn't realize it was already banned.

[tescrin]

I think if burning Inquiry is out it's a little easier to brew. I'd also consider banning chalice, since this format is even more defined by 0-drops (lotus petal) and 1-drops; meaning it insta-gibs most plays; which is mostly viable because you banned wasteland. There are counters to the City/Chalice decks however without wasteland:

Damping Sphere
Crystal Vein
2 Mishra's Factory

beats the Nether Shadow decks by being able to block and attack through 2/2s (play CV first, don't play sphere, play factorys as you go after that so that you can't lose a factory)

beats Hanni's chalice OTP and OTD by deterministically keeping TKS off the table and just attacking with a 2/2

I think it beats the Kird Ape deck: If they raze first, they can't bolt a factory > Kird ape. If they Bolt first, you can make Factory a 4/4 in response, trading with ape. No line can beat both factories.

___
Another reasonable one is

Leyline of Vitality
Lotus Petal
Sheltered Valley
Bitterblossom

which chumps anything while slowly gaining life, minus T1 land destruction; but loses to the big tramplers. Loses OTP to Hanni's chalice though (as do all Lotus petal or 1-drop strategies..), I think it beats the Damping Sphere deck by waiting until you have 2-3 tokens, and just chumping every turn while flying in a couple damager per turn.

if you unban wasteland and swap Valley for Wasteland however it draw's Hanni's deck OTD and beats Heavyweights in either direction; while also beating the Kird-Ape deck, other blossom decks, (1/2s, life is static) and can probably race tramplers who are ~4/4 or so.

____
If chalice was banned the new Retofitter foundry + factories + (something) would be pretty difficult to beat. It'd have the benefits of Factories, the benefits of unlimited tokens, and could make 4/4s if games went long. If wasteland was unbanned, I think it can also beat Hanni's and Heavyweights

Retrofitter Foundry
Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory


_____

Main findings being that Factory is pretty good; getting under chalice and beating most things. You usually want 2 though so you can attack as a 3/3 to break ties or block as a 4/4, as well as absorb multiple removal spells. Token producers seem good as long as you can shut off high-mana decks via Sphere or Wasteland; but you

[Mr. Safety]

Island
Shelldock Isle
Emrakul, the Aeon's Torn
Sphinx of Foresight

Cards start in your hand, I already tried this! You need a way to get Emrakul back into your library.

I agree with PirateKing, lets throw this down! I'm pretty interested in seeing what happens.

[apple713]

Keeping wasteland/ gq banned really makes maze of ith an issue

[PirateKing]

Keeping wasteland/ gq banned really makes maze of ith an issue

Only if your WC is a single creature
All of my ideas would do just fine against Maze
"I have an idea, but it auto-loses to XYZ strategy"
Well, welcome to the game; let's go!

[CptHaddock]

Could we get the updated banlist on the OP?

I think this one is pretty strong too:

Mox Sapphire
Chancellor of the Annex
Lodestone Golem
Mishra's Workshop

[tescrin]

"I have an idea, but it auto-loses to *snip-insert*wasteland*/snip* "
Well, welcome to the game; let's go!

This is also an argument to keep wasteland though (and thoughtseize, and similar)

For example, my Factory decks survive Thoughtseize just fine and my blossom deck survives wasteland just fine.

[phonics]

3x led
Increasing devotion.


keldon megaliths
maze of ith
r/x storageland
electrickery/volcanic fallout/some other answer/ sweeper

[Fallen_Empire]

Where do we post decks? is the ban-list a lock?

[Dice_Box]

Is this a Vintage format or a Legacy one? I see people saying Mental fuckup is not on the list, but no shit, it's banned in Legacy. So it need not be on the list if your already limited to the format.

If your able to play to the Vintage list, well, why not just play on TMD?

[Ace/Homebrew]

Is this a Vintage format or a Legacy one?
Why does it have to be either?

[Dice_Box]

Why does it have to be either?
Gives you the base list and tone.

The most broken thing you can do with a Legacy pile likely includes Lotus Petal. Vintage is a very different beast. Totally shifts the tone.

[Asthereal]

For now, most here have assumed we're on Legacy, and I'm expecting to stick to that for season one.
We could move to Vintage for season 2 if people want (with updated banning list - Lotus and Workshop are too much for sure).
Or season 2 will be the banathon I hinted at earlier. We can discuss that during the first season.

I will update the first posts with a new banning list with a few fewer cards, and some more explanation.
When I'm ready, I will PM myself my first deck, and then post here with the start of the first season.

PS. I am at work right now, so this may take a while. I have to do everything during breaks.


Where do we post decks? is the ban-list a lock?
You don't post your deck. You PM it to the organizer (me) after he has PM'ed himself his own deck and announced the next round.
(This because otherwise people can complain that I cheated by meta'ing based on the decks I received).
After the deadline has passed (and when I find the time), I will post all participating decks in this thread, and we can start figuring out scores.

And no, we will update the banning list as we go. Might unban more after we start, might ban a few obnoxious things along the way.
The consensus seems to be that people want less banned cards, and interventions only when proven necessary.

But the organizer has veto. :cool: :laugh:

Last note: This thing is open for all, and if you haven't made it for round one, you can enter in a later round. You may need to do some catching up, but it's all for fun anyway.

[Mr. Safety]

Should we be PM-ing you our list now?

[Asthereal]

Hey yo, let's go!

SEASON 1, ROUND 1 of Legacy FOUR CARD BLIND has started!

I have PM'ed myself my deck for the round (quickly, it's probably crap, but that's okay).
So... you can all start PM'ing me your submission for the first round.

DEADLINE: Wednesday the 20th of February, at 6:00AM Central European Time. (That's my time. Just send me the deck Tuesday evening latest, you'll be fine).

PLEASE NOTE:
I have extensively updated the first posts. Be mindful of:
- The way you send your deck to me, so it doesn't cost me an hour of editing before I can post all the decks I receive.
- The updated banning list. I dropped a few cards, but there's still quite the pile of banned stuff!
(Yes, the list is open for discussion. No, not for round 1, and probably also not for round 2. We'll see how it goes first.)

After the deadline has passed, I will post all decks on the forum here, and you can start puzzling out your scores.
I took a week per round. I hope I can keep it up, otherwise we may need to go to one round per two weeks, or I may need help from others here.
I will try to start round 2 quickly after decks for round 1 are posted, but I can't promise anything, because I also need time to design my own deck.
And I have a job and stuff. :tongue:

If you have any questions, please read the first two posts of this thread first. If you can't find the answer there, drop a message here. We'll answer a.s.a.p.

Happy deck designing everybody!


EDIT: First decks are coming in. :smile:

[Asthereal]

This is going well! So far, we have 11 participants. :smile:

Two more have tried, but sent in illegal decks.
Check the banned list, please. It's in the 2nd post.

[JackaBo]

This is going well! So far, we have 11 participants. :smile:

Two more have tried, but sent in illegal decks.
Check the banned list, please. It's in the 2nd post.

Sorry about that, new entry sent in

[Asthereal]

Sorry about that, new entry sent in
I wasn't going to name any names, but... :cool:

And we're at 12 people. I've added the user names to the ranking in the first post.
When the first round decks are up, we'll figure out who wins what, and I'll adjust the ranking when all scores are cross-checked.

[mistercakes]

can we ban unburial rites?

[Asthereal]

can we ban unburial rites?
Maybe in a few rounds. Let's see what round one does first.

[Fox]

Forbidden Orchard
Illness in the Ranks
Ancient Tomb
Goblin Sharpshooter

On a more serious note:
Foil
Island
Nether Spirit
Vengeful Pharaoh

[Asthereal]

Foil
Island
Nether Spirit
Vengeful Pharaoh
Great example of a deck that looks really good on paper, but is actually not so good.
The main reason: what do you do when your opponent decides not to play anything?
Also, it loses to Mishra's Factory + other land, and Taiga, 3x Kird Ape.
So when you sport this deck, all you can expect is draws and losses.

[kombatkiwi]

Just submitted a deck that almost certainly sucks, yolo

[Tylert]

Man, it can't suck more than mine :)
But look at it this way: with the examples posted in this thread, people have seen that some decks are going to be strong. So they will metagame it. And it's probable that your crappy deck will be good vs their deck.

Mine is stupid and will loose to non sense like small pox. but it will probably win vs any deck that try to beat smallpox decks :)

[Asthereal]

Wow, this is going much better than I had hoped for!
We're at 17 participants already, and the submissions aren't even open for 24 hours yet.

Thanks for joining, everybody. :smile:

If you fear your deck is bad, don't worry. After a few rounds you'll get the hang of it.
And even the better 4CB players will sometimes just get wrecked by clever meta anticipation.

[Fox]

Great example of a deck that looks really good on paper, but is actually not so good.
The main reason: what do you do when your opponent decides not to play anything?
Also, it loses to Mishra's Factory + other land, and Taiga, 3x Kird Ape.
So when you sport this deck, all you can expect is draws and losses.

Okay fine:
Shivan Gorge
Volcanic Island
City of Traitors
Energy Field
:tongue:

[Asthereal]

Okay fine:
Shivan Gorge
Volcanic Island
City of Traitors
Energy Field
:tongue:
That's a nice one!

If you would like to join for real, send me a PM with your deck.
You have until Tuesday evening (-ish, depending in time zones) to send something in.

[PirateKing]

Okay fine:
Shivan Gorge
Volcanic Island
City of Traitors
Energy Field
:tongue:

As long as Duress is legal any all in decks will only win half their matches

[Mr. Safety]

As long as Duress is legal any all in decks will only win half their matches

This was the biggest factor in how I built my deck, actually. Discard, and to a smaller extent land destruction, are going to be defining elements of this format.

[Fox]

As long as Duress is legal any all in decks will only win half their matches

I mean that's fine, it's just that Shivan Gorge has never been reprinted down to :1::r: activation cost so I can't run Nephalia Academy

[Mr. Safety]

I mean that's fine, it's just that Shivan Gorge has never been reprinted down to :1::r: activation cost so I can't run Nephalia Academy

*Ahem* {pushes up nerd glasses}

Keldon Megaliths

[guillemnicolau]

We played a 5 people tournament yesterday, only with OldSchool pool (ABU, Arabian, Legends, Antiquities, The Dark) and with the Lotus banned. I won with:
- Mox Pearl
- Mox Emerald
- Balance
- The Rack

For the next one the moxen and The rack will be banned...

[tescrin]

This was the biggest factor in how I built my deck, actually. Discard, and to a smaller extent land destruction, are going to be defining elements of this format.

We'll see. I think chalice shows that's it's super mean from Hanni's; so I also considered Chalice -> beats any 0-1 drop reliant deck when its on the play. Difficult to avoid discard, chalice, unburial rites, and land destruction at the same time; so the format will self-regulate a bit I think.


I mean that's fine, it's just that Shivan Gorge has never been reprinted down to :1::r: activation cost so I can't run Nephalia Academy
I love that threads like this help me find weird stuff I missed on my hiatus. That card seems playable; though maybe it's garbage haha


We played a 5 people tournament yesterday, only with OldSchool pool (ABU, Arabian, Legends, Antiquities, The Dark) and with the Lotus banned. I won with:
- Mox Pearl
- Mox Emerald
- Balance
- The Rack

For the next one the moxen and The rack will be banned...

̶F̶u̶n̶n̶y̶ ̶e̶n̶o̶u̶g̶h̶,̶ ̶w̶h̶y̶ ̶d̶i̶d̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶p̶e̶o̶p̶l̶e̶ ̶r̶u̶n̶ ̶C̶h̶a̶l̶i̶c̶e̶?̶ ̶C̶h̶a̶l̶i̶c̶e̶ ̶o̶n̶ ̶0̶ ̶s̶e̶e̶m̶s̶ ̶g̶r̶e̶a̶t̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶v̶i̶n̶t̶a̶g̶e̶;̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶u̶s̶a̶b̶l̶e̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶l̶e̶g̶a̶c̶y̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶b̶l̶o̶c̶k̶ ̶m̶o̶s̶t̶ ̶s̶t̶r̶a̶t̶e̶g̶i̶e̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶a̶v̶o̶i̶d̶ ̶1̶-̶d̶r̶o̶p̶s̶ ̶b̶y̶ ̶u̶s̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶L̶E̶D̶ ̶o̶r̶ ̶L̶o̶t̶u̶s̶
Derp!

[mistercakes]

two fun ones:

city of traitors
simian spirit guide
priest of urabrask
words of war


or


city of traitors
lotus petal
priest of gix
liliana of the veil, hymn to tourach, pox, smallpox


or


city of traitors
krark's thumb
simian spirit guide
mana clash

[taconaut]

city of traitors
krark's thumb
simian spirit guide
mana clash


:laugh:

this is easily my favorite submission I've seen

the best part is that it can make it non-deterministic

Edit: I didn't read the random rule. DISAPPOINTING

[PirateKing]

Both your red and black engines leave you with a 2/1, so I guess that's good.
I mused:

City of Traitors
Simian Spirit Guide
Seething Song
:r::r::r::r::r:

or

Swamp
Memnite
Culling the Weak
:b::b::b::b:

But again, all in decks are exactly that, so good luck OTD

[Asthereal]

city of traitors
krark's thumb
simian spirit guide
mana clash

That's awesome! But wait...

Random effects are always in favor of the opponent.
So doesn't every coin flip you do become tails and every coin flip your opponent does come up heads?
So effectively you manage to kill yourself on turn one? In which case optimal play dictates you play nothing...

Sometimes this game is a tad less fun than you'd expect. :tongue:

[guillemnicolau]

Funny enough, why didn't people run Chalice? Chalice on 0 seems great in vintage; and usable in legacy to block most strategies that avoid 1-drops by using LED or Lotus

I don't think you understood my post.

[tescrin]

I don't think you understood my post.

oh whoops, I forgot about OS. Derp

[PapriNgomo]

That's awesome! But wait...

Random effects are always in favor of the opponent.
So doesn't every coin flip you do become tails and every coin flip your opponent does come up heads?
So effectively you manage to kill yourself on turn one? In which case optimal play dictates you play nothing...

Sometimes this game is a tad less fun than you'd expect. :tongue:

And the loop may be stopped before someone loose : opponent heads, me twice heads... Opponent's turn.

[Asthereal]

And the loop may be stopped before someone loose : opponent heads, me twice heads... Opponent's turn.
Not in Four Card Blind. The coin flips aren't actually played.
Every random effect just works as much in favor to the opponent as possible.

So if you cast Mana Clash, your coin flips are always going to be tails, and his are always heads.
So Mana Clash can only end when the caster has died.
In 4CB we play the optimal line for every player, and casting Mana Clash is suicide, so not optimal.
So in conclusion: you won't ever cast Mana Clash. Which is sad, because it would have been funny.

[Asthereal]

23 participants and counting, and I see we've forgotten to ban a few cards.
That's okay. We'll discuss it after I post all the decks on Wednesday.

[JosefK]

23 participants and counting, and I see we've forgotten to ban a few cards.
That's okay. We'll discuss it after I post all the decks on Wednesday.

:)

[mistercakes]

@Asthereal

Do both players start the game with hands revealed?

[tescrin]

@Asthereal

Do both players start the game with hands revealed?

The decks are played with full known information and the most optimal lines taken. If, for example, you look at a deck with City of Traitors + Chalice of the Void; let's say "Hanni" since he was the first to post it

Let's say he faces
2x LED
1x Unburial
1x fatty

In this case when he goes first he'll set chalice on 0

but if he faces the kird ape/bolt/raze deck he'll set the chalice on 1. This is determined by the community around the 21st (?) when all the decks are posted and the most optimal lines of every deck vs every other deck are discovered/validated. Then the wins and draws points are handed out based on those most-optimal play-lines




The games go as follows
- You start with all four cards from your deck in your opening hand, and play from there.
*snip*
- Every player always plays optimally. If anyone finds a better line, that line is played.

Example
John sends in this deck: Taiga, Kird Ape, Lightning Bolt, Raze
Sarah sends in this deck: Sandstone Needle, City of Traitors, Boldwyr Heavyweights, Aftershock (actually, this was my first ever 4CB deck )
This looks like John's in trouble, because the Heavyweights will crush him big time, but actually, John wins this 4 to 1 because Sarah's lands are too slow.
OTP: T1 John plays Taiga, Kird Ape, T1 Sarah plays Sandstone Needle. T2 John plays Raze and kills the Needle, after which he rides the Ape to victory.
OTD: T1 Sarah plays Needle, T1 John cannot allow her to add a City and cast the Heavyweights, so he just goes Taiga, Raze the Needle and it's a draw because no one can cast anything anymore.

[Asthereal]

*lots of usefull stuff
You should change your status from "is cancer" to "is useful".
Couldn't have responded better. :smile:

After the deadline has passed, I will post the decks everybody has sent in as soon as I can.
Afterwards, I will post my results, with quick explanations of the lines played.
This will look somewhat as follows (with different cards, and depending on what they have, obviously).

Lions Galore!! (Savannah, Loam Lion, Loam Lion, Swords to Plowshares)
John: You combo me out both games. 0-6
Ralph: OTP I get to cast a Lion, which beats your Memnite, OTD you get to cast Chalice@1 and I die to Memnite. 3-3
Sarah: You can only FoW one Lion. OTP I win the race, OTD I won't, so it's a standoff. 4-1
Total: 7 point

[Asthereal]

And we're up to 25 participants.
Last chance to enter, as the deadline is in less than 24 hours! :cool:

[Tylert]

You should change your status from "is cancer" to "is usefull".
Couldn't have responded better. :smile:

After the deadline has passed, I will post the decks everybody has sent in as soon as I can.
Afterwards, I will post my results, with quick explanations of the lines played.
This will look somewhat as follows (with different cards, and depending on what they have, obviously).

Lions Galore!! (Savannah, Loam Lion, Loam Lion, Swords to Plowshares)
John: You combo me out both games. 0-6
Ralph: OTP I get to cast a Lion, which beats your Memnite, OTD you get to cast Chalice@1 and I die to Memnite. 3-3
Sarah: You can only FoW one Lion. OTP I win the race, OTD I won't, so it's a standoff. 4-1
Total: 7 point

How come is this 7 points?
You lose the first match = 0 points
You draw the second one = 1 point
You win the last match = 3 points
total = 4 Points???

or is it 3 points per game won in a match and one per standoff??
=> 0 points for match 1
=> 3 points for match 2
=> 4 points for match 3
total 7 points???

[Asthereal]

How come is this 7 points?
You lose the first match = 0 points
You draw the second one = 1 point
You win the last match = 3 points
total = 4 Points???

or is it 3 points per game won in a match and one per standoff??
=> 0 points for match 1
=> 3 points for match 2
=> 4 points for match 3
total 7 points???
Each match can end in:
- Two wins 3+3=6 points
- One win, one draw 3+1=4 points
- One win, one loss 3+0=3 points
- Two draws 1+1=2 points
- One draw, one loss: 1+0=1 point
- Two losses: 0 points

That's how we will calculate the scores.

So, yes, that works somewhat differently from normal tournaments.
Should I edit the first post a bit, to clarify?

[Mr. Safety]

I am very excited to see results, this has been really fun!

[tescrin]

Yeah I've been antsy to see the results since I sent my list haha.
Curious to find out if I'm one of the people who found what is apparently broken or not

I've been building other lists based on tentative bans on my desktop too; gota git redy

[Asthereal]

Yeah I have like ten decks ready as well.
Which I might have to rethink if we decide to ban like 3 more cards for next round. :tongue:

[Mr. Safety]

I'm waiting on R1 to see how the 'metagame' shakes out and if there will be more bans. I have like 2 decks tentatively mapped out, but they could be garbage if there is a metagame hostile to it. I predicted this first round would be dominated by either 1) creature cheats (Unburial Rites, Reanimate, etc) or 2) Hyper efficient agro (Taiga, Kird Ape, Raze, Bolt for example.) EDIT: *super secret tech*

[Tylert]

I started my own 4CB within my circle of friends.
There are already some imaginative builds and some very metagamed builds in anticipation of the meta :)
I will probably reuse some of these with some twists in the next rounds :)

[Asthereal]

(spoiler, but the deadline has passed so whatever)
No, it hasn't just yet!
Might want to snip that out for the time being. :wink:

Deadline passes on 6:00AM CET on Wednesday (tomorrow).
Which for the USA means post your deck tonight (Tuesday) before like 11:00PM.
And for Japan means tomorrow (Wednesday) at noon-ish, I think? I'm not sure.

Timezones are confusing as... as... I can't think of a word that fits here that I can actually say on a public forum. :eyebrow:

[Ace/Homebrew]

No, it hasn't just yet!


http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mbv3vlPzDq1qih9gi.gif

[FTW]

Deadline passes on 6:00AM CET on Wednesday (tomorrow).
Which for the USA means post your deck tonight (Tuesday) before like 11:00PM.
And for Japan means tomorrow (Wednesday) at noon-ish, I think? I'm not sure.

Is there still time? If so, I'm in. I'll submit something in the next hour.

Edit: It's a good thing Chancellor of the Annex is banned. Otherwise this is dumb

Chancellor of the Annex
City of Traitors
Lion's Eye Diamond
Unburial Rites

The mana denial would beat most decks on the play or draw, it plays around 1-2 enemy Chancellors, and it draws against itself.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Is there still time? If so, I'm in. I'll submit something in the next hour.

Edit: It's a good thing Chancellor of the Annex is banned. Otherwise this is dumb

Chancellor of the Annex
City of Traitors
Lion's Eye Diamond
Unburial Rites

The mana denial would beat most decks on the play or draw, it plays around 1-2 enemy Chancellors, and it draws against itself.
Mine would beat it 2-0, but one of my cards is Leyline of the Void :tongue:

[spirit of the wretch]

Mine would beat it 2-0, but one of my cards is Leyline of the Void :tongue:

So would mine, but one of my cards is Leyline of Singularity :cool:

[Asthereal]

The moment we have all been waiting for is upon us...

DECKS FOR ROUND ONE!

1. Asthereal (TO): Force of Will, Sea's Claim, Slippery Bogle, Island
2. PirateKing: City of Traitors, The Rack, The Rack, Lupine Prototype
3. Matsu: Rishadan Port, Mishra's factory, Mental Misstep, Mental Misstep
4. CptHaddock: Force of Will, Misthollow Griffin, Saprazzan Cove, Mental Misstep
5. Taconaut: Force of Will, Misthollow Griffin, Saprazzan Cove, Confiscate
6. Mr. Safety: City of Traitors, Elvish Spirit Guide, Ensnaring Bridge, Scalding Tongs
7. Clx33: Saprazzan Cove, Force of Will, Misthollow Griffin, Propaganda
8. Fallen_Empire: City of Traitors, Torpor Orb, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Phyrexian Dreadnought
9. tescrin: Sphere of Resistance, Crystal Vein, Mishra's Factory, Mishra's Factory
10. PapriNgomo: Undiscovered Paradise, Undiscovered Paradise, Scythe Leopard, Adventuring Gear
11. ronco: Swamp, Smallpox, Nether Spirit, Lotus Petal
12. JackaBo: City of traitors, Simian spirit guide, Simian spirit guide, Thought-knot-seer
13. H: Tropical Island, Force of Will, Force Spike, Old-Growth Dryads
14. mistercakes: swamp, culling the weak, shield sphere, phyrexian obliterator
15. Dan Pyre: Swamp, Cabal Ritual, Lotus Petal, Phyrexian Crusader
16. kombatkiwi: Peat Bog, Bitterblossom, Nether Spirit, Smallpox
17. Tylert: Havenwood Battleground, city of traitors, Eureka, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
18. Ace/Homebrew: Leyline of the Void, Leyline of Sanctity, Serra's Sanctum, Myth Realized
19. spartan117: The Tabernacle At Pendrell Vale, Eladamri's Vineyard, Treetop Village, Field Of Ruin
20. beardstorm: Island, Zealous Guardian, Force Spike, Sea's Claim
21. phonics: Swamp, Mishra's Factory, Blackmail, The Rack
22. Sloshthedark: Blinkmoth Nexus, Inkmoth Nexus, City of Traitors, Sphere of Resistance
23. JosefK: Blackmail, Cabal Therapy, Swamp, The Rack
24. spirit of the wretch: Leyline of Singularity, Karakas, City of Traitors, Hangarback Walker
25. apple713: Plains, Mishra's Factory, Mana Tithe, Leyline of the Void
26. Darklingske: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Grove of the Burnwillows, Punishing Fire, Dwarven Hold
27. FTW: Leyline of the Void, Scrubland, Cabal Therapy, Student of Warfare
28. Kap'n Cook: Force of Will, Judge's Familiar, Tropical Island, Greenbelt Rampager

That's quite the list! Thank you alle for joining, and good luck figuring out the scores. Don't forget to cross-check with the opponents.

[Asthereal]

Asthereal's results for S01R01:

1. Asthereal (TO) = me! It's a slippery, slippery, slippery slope: Force of Will, Sea's Claim, Slippery Bogle, Island
2. PirateKing: Sooo many threats! I guess you just kill me. 0-6 (0)
3. Matsu: Eh... Factory races me, and 2x Misstep counters my Claim quite well. 0-6 (0)
4. CptHaddock: I don't see a way to use Claim without it getting countered. 0-6 (0...)
5. Taconaut: BG (both games) Claim your Cove, protect with FoW pitching Bogle = draw. 2-2 (2! I'm on the score board!)
6. Mr. Safety: Bogle could race Tongs OTP, but FoW costs a life. I don't see anything other than BG FoW Tongs and draw. 2-2 (4)
7. Clx33: BG (both games) Claim your Cove, protect with FoW pitching Bogle = draw. 2-2 (6)
8. Fallen_Empire: BG FoW Orb, pitching Claim. Bogle beats. 6-0 (12)
9. tescrin: I can't beat 2x Mishra's Fcatory with this deck. 0-6 (12)
10. PapriNgomo: BG FoW Leopard, pitching Claim. Bogle beats. (Tip: -1 Paradise, +1 Port/Mishra's/Quicksand/?) 6-0 (18)
11. ronco: BG FoW either Smallpox or Petal, pitching Claim. Bogle beats. 6-0 (24)
12. JackaBo: BG FoW your guy, pitching Claim. Bogle beats. 6-0 (30)
13. H: Protected Old-Growth Dryads kind of races my Bogle. 0-6 (30)
14. mistercakes: BG FoW your Shield Sphere, pitching Claim. Bogle beats. 6-0 (36)
15. Dan Pyre: BG FoW a spell, pitching Claim. Bogle beats. 6-0 (42)
16. kombatkiwi: Sea's Claim your Peat Bog, Bogle beats. 6-0 (48)
17. Tylert: Either Sea's Claim the Havenwood, or FoW Eureka pitching Claim. Bogle beats. 6-0 (54)
18. Ace/Homebrew: BG FoW Myth Realized, pitching Claim. Bogle beats. 6-0 (60)
19. spartan117: BG FoW Vineyard, pitching Claim. Now you can't activate Village anymore, right? Bogle beats. 6-0 (66)
20. beardstorm: OTP I go Island-Bogle. If you ever cast your guy I FoW it. Bogle wins the day. OTD you just play Island-go. If I use mana to cast my guy, you get to Force Spike, which I can FoW, but then you get to cast your guy and we have a stare-down -> draw. 4-1 (70)
21. phonics: Yeah, Blackmail sucks. So does Mishra's Factory. And The Rack. 0-6 (70)
22. Sloshthedark: Bogle could race Blinkmoth OTP if I get to Claim Inkmoth, but Sphere says no. Which is unfortunate. 0-6 (70)
23. JosefK: Discard stops my FoW. Claim does not stop your Rack. Rack races Bogle. Sad day. 0-6 (70)
24. spirit of the wretch: BG FoW the Walker, pitching Claim. Bogle beats. 6-0 (76)
25. apple713: If you attack with your Factory, I get to Claim it and Bogle wins. So you don't attack, keeping Mana Tithe for defense. If I try to Claim your Factory and protect my Claim with FoW, I have to pitch Bogle, leaving me without a wincon. So I also don't do anything. That's two draws. 2-2 (78)
26. Darklingske: Island -> Bogle is actually the faster kill. That made me chuckle. :) Oh and I just pay for Tabernacle. 6-0 (84)
27. FTW: If you therapy my FoW, I Claim your land. Otherwise I FoW your Student. Two draws. 2-2 (86)
28. Kap'n Cook: Claim stops you from casting Rampager, Familiar gets FoWed pitching Bogle. Or you FoW pitching Familiar, which I FoW back. No wincons left = two draws. 2-2 (88)

Total: 88 points

I will make each match bold if I have cross-checked it and we both agree on our score.
If everybody does that, we can easily check which matches still need to be discussed.

If you disagree with my assessment, just post so in your results and explain how we should play.
Remember: we both play optimally, so if I overlook a better line, it is your duty to correct me.

BANNINGS
You can also let everyone know which cards you feel should be banned.

I advocate to ban these cards:
- Cabal Therapy (because Thoughtseize is banned, and this card is better)
- Blackmail (same reason - note this card can also take lands!)
Honestly I just forgot about these. These should obviously not be legal if Seize is banned.
Keeping Duress is probably fine, as it helps stop obnoxious things, but I think these are too much.

I have my doubts about these cards:
- Lion's Eye Diamond (allows for insane combos)
- Eureka (stoppable, but obnoxious, especially with City of Traitors and 2x Chancellor of the Tangle)
- Misthollow Griffin or Force of Will (this combo might be too much to allow)
- The Rack (I forgot about this card. It's pretty insane if you think about it.)

Let us know what you want to do. Shall we ban cards for next round already? Or shall we wait? I'm cool with either.

OOPS
Also, I was notified I have to issue an apology. As this is the first round and the first time for me organizing this, we were bound to run into an issue, and we did:
Before we started, a few people noted they would like Misstep to be legal. I agreed, but failed to put that into the first posts, so some thought Misstep would be banned.
I'm sorry about that.
I have decided to decree all decks posted for round one legal, and I will take action before round two. Probably I will declare Misstep legal, and ban a few other cards.
Possibly, I will take more action. I'm working on an entire new banning list. Half the cards on the Legacy banned list are irrelevant anyway (Vampiric Tutor, wow).

[Dan Pyre]

TFW you build a Phyrexian Crusader deck and there are literally zero Bolts/Plows in the presented decklists :cry:

Looking good folks!! I'll be sure to do my (atrocious) matchups here when I get home!

[Tylert]

48 points. Match verifieds in bold.

1) Asthereal: I loose 2-0 because he can sea claim one of my lands : 0 points
2) PirateKing: I kill him by attacking each time it wipes his board and he can't win : 6 points --> 6
3) Matsu: i win because he can't port me. OTD: He has to port me at each upkeep to not loose. Stand off. : 4 points --> 10
4) CptHaddock: I loose twice because he can FoW my eureka: 0 --> 10
5) Taconaut: I loose twice because he can FoW my eureka: 0 --> 10
6) Mr. Safety: Can't attack i loose to scalding tongs: 0 --> 10
7) Clx33: I loose twice because he can FoW my eureka: 0 --> 10
8) Fallen_Empire: 3-3. Because OTP i can block one dreadnaught and survive and wipes his board on the next turn, and OTD he is one turn faster: 3 --> 13
9) tescrin: Can't play my spells. I loose 2-0. 0 --> 13
10) PapriNgomo: Your deck is too slow. You can't kill me both games before Emmy attacks and your board's wipe. 6 --> 19
11) Ronco: I think i loose both games. OTP, you can smallpox after i put Emmy in play, OTD, you kill one of my lands. 0 --> 19
12) JackaBo: My deck is too slow. You take emrakul both times before i can do anything. 0 --> 19
13) H: You fow eureka. 0-2. 0 --> 19
14) mistercakes: I think emrakul arrives before you kill me both otp and otd. 2-0. 6 --> 25
15) Dan Pyre: Poor Phyrexain crusader decks. Emmy comes before you kill me both times. 2-0 6 --> 31
16) kombatkiwi: Either you kill my land with smallpox or emrakul once he is in play. 0-2 --> 31
17) Myself
18) Ace/Homebrew: I guess i win both games because you're a bit slow. 2-0 : 6 --> 37
19) spartan117: I win otp and otd because i cast eureka before you can do anything. 2-0: 6 --> 43
20) beardstorm: I loose both games because you can sea claim my lands. 0 --> 43
21) phonics: Your blackmail will allways get rid of one of my necessary piece of the combo (Either a land or Eureka). I loose 0-2. 0 --> 43
22) Sloshthedark: You can allways land sphere of resistance before i cast Eureka. 0 --> 43
23) JosefK: Your blackmail will allways get rid of one of my necessary piece of the combo (Either a land or Eureka). I loose 0-2. 0 --> 43
24) spirit of the wretch: Karakas beats me hardtime. 0 --> 43
25) apple713: If i cast eureka, i loose, if my opponents taps out for a threat he looses. Both stand offs. 2-2: 2 --> 45
26) Darklingske: you can't stop eureka, i win. 2-0. 6 --> 51
27) FTW: You can allways discard eureka. 0-2. 0 --> 51
28) Kap'n Cook: Force of will FTW. 0 -2 --> 51

Total 51 points.

[spirit of the wretch]

spirit's results for S01R01: (Match verifieds in bold.)
1. Asthereal (TO): Fow + Hexproof > my deck 0-6 (0)
2. PirateKing: I can't race his Rack 0-6 (0)
3. Matsu: he can't beat Walker 6-0 (6)
4. CptHaddock: Force kills my Thread and Karakas kills his => draw 2-2 (8)
5. Taconaut: Confiscate FTW => 0-6 (8)
6. Mr. Safety: I can't beat Bridge 0-6 (8)
8. Fallen_Empire: Leyline + Karakas > Phyrexian Dreadnough 6-0 (14)
9. tescrin: I can pay three for Hangarback Walker and he wins 6-0 (20)
10. PapriNgomo: Leyline + Karakas > Scythe Leopard 6-0 (26)
11. ronco: Noone plays anything... 2-2 (28)
12. JackaBo: OTP I resolve Hangarback Walker and Karakas wins. OTD he takes Hangarback and Karakas draws 4-1 (32)
13. H: Force kills my Thread and Karakas kills his => draw 2-2 (34)
14. mistercakes: Leyline + Karakas > Phyrexian Obliterator 6-0 (40)
15. Dan Pyre: Leyline + Karakas > Phyrexian Crusader 6-0 (46)
16. kombatkiwi: OTP: T1 Karakas, T2 Walker wins, OTD: Noone plays anything... 4-1 (50)
17. Tylert: Leyline + Karakas > Emrakul, the Aeons Torn 6-0 (56)
18. Ace/Homebrew: Mine is bigger and creates fliers 6-0 (62)
19. spartan117: I play city and hold Karakas. Once he uses Field, I sac Walker to Tabernacle and play Karakas. I bounce his Village every turn an my tokens die => draw 2-2 (64)
20. beardstorm: I can pay three for Hangarback Walker and he wins 6-0 (70)
21. phonics: I can't race his Rack 0-6 (70)
22. Sloshthedark: Can't bounce or race the poison 0-6 (70)
23. JosefK: I can't race his Rack 0-6 (70)
24. spirit of the wretch: it's meeee (70)
25. apple713: I can pay three for Hangarback Walker and he wins 6-0 (76)
26. Darklingske: I play Karakas first and use it to protect my Walker from Fire. He wins 6-0 (82)
27. FTW: OTP I resolve Walker and he wins with Karakas. OTD we draw 4-1 (86)
28. Kap'n Cook: Force kills my Thread and Karakas kills his => draw 2-2 (88)

Total: 88 points

BANNINGS
- Cabal Therapy
- Blackmail
- Force of Will
- The Rack

[Tylert]

Isn't Mental misstep banned in legacy? :)

[Asthereal]

Isn't Mental misstep banned in legacy? :)
LOOOL that's a very fair point. :eek:
How did we manage to miss that?

Anyway, legal now and banned next round?
I think that might be the best solution.

Or we could rethink the entire banned list.
The thing is: half the cards on there aren't dangerous for 4CB anyway.
Fast mana is dangerous, but for instance card draw is mostly irrelevant.

[FTW]

Isn't Mental misstep banned in legacy? :)

This.

I didn't consider playing it or playing around it because the rules clearly said Legacy B/R. Mishra's Workshop and Sol Ring could also lead to powerful decks, but they're not Legacy legal either. Mental Misstep is quite powerful in this format. Some of the cards could safely be unbanned, but shouldn't that be mentioned beforehand?

[PirateKing]

I built my list to be legacy legal expect for the specific cards, had I known Vintage cards were legal I might have chosen differently then.
Oh well, guess I'll get a support ticket to have my entry fee returned /s

PirateKing

1. Asthereal (TO): Something gets countered, but what doesn't kills you 6-0 (6)
---
3. Matsu: Both Racks get countered, but a 5/5 is fine too 6-0 (12)
4. CptHaddock: A Rack and Lupine Prototype gets countered, but the other Rack gets there before the Griffin be relevant 6-0 (18)
5. Taconaut: Something gets countered, but what doesn't kills you before Confiscate turns live 6-0 (24)
6. Mr. Safety: Ensnaring Bridge makes Lupine Protopype sad, but Racks beat Tongs because broken 6-0 (30)
7. Clx33: Something gets countered, but what doesn't kills you 6-0 (36)
8. Fallen_Empire: I explode 0-6 (36)
9. tescrin: I play Lupine first OTP and win, Sphere locks me OTD, but slow playing Racks wins the race 6-0 (42)
10. PapriNgomo: Scythe Leopard is a 4/4 at most, Lupine Prototype does just fine 6-0 (48)
11. ronco: Getting out both Racks sidesteps Nether Spirits eternal blocks, wins the race 6-0 (54)
12. JackaBo: Thought-Knot Seer dies unless it takes Lupine Prototype, either way Racks race well 6-0 (60)
13. H: Something gets countered, but what doesn't kills you 6-0 (66)
14. mistercakes: We trade 5 and 6 damage, you die in your upkeep seconds before I'm to die 6-0 (72)
15. Dan Pyre: Phyrexian Crusader is a 5 turn clock without blocks, Racks kill you in 4 6-0 (78)
16. kombatkiwi: Eternal blocks in spades, but Racks haven't been banned yet so... 6-0 (84)
17. Tylert: I explode without a permanent to my name 0-6 (84)
18. Ace/Homebrew: Leyline of Sanctity doesn't stop The Rack (had to check) 6-0 (90)
19. spartan117: Two Racks win 6-0 (96)
20. beardstorm: Something gets countered, but what doesn't kills you 6-0 (102)
21. phonics: Something gets Blackmailed, but what's left races faster 6-0 (108)
22. Sloshthedark: I play Lupine first OTP and win, Sphere locks me OTD, but slow playing Racks wins the race 6-0 (114)
23. JosefK: Cabal Therapy with perfect info takes both Racks, but Lupine Prototype wins in 4, solo Rack wins in 7 6-0 (120)
24. spirit of the wretch: I get to keep a single Rack which is enough 6-0 (126)
25. apple713: Something gets countered, but what doesn't kills you 6-0 (132)
26. Darklingske: Even not paying for Lupine Prototype doesn't change the math 6-0 (138)
27. FTW: Cabal Therapy with perfect info takes both Racks, but Lupine Prototype wins in 4 before Student can do anything but chump 6-0 (144)
28. Kap'n Cook: Something gets countered, but what doesn't kills you 6-0 (150)

150 points
Ban my deck

[apple713]

25) apple713: You can wait for me to cast eureka to mana tithe it both games. 0-2: 0 --> 40


Question for Asthereal

In this match would we go to stalemate because he isn't forced to play eureka? I can't tap out to attack for fear of eureka and he can't cast it for fear of tithe?

[H]

H: Tropical Island, Force of Will, Force Spike, Old-Growth Dryads


My list above. He's what I came to:
1.) Asthereal: I can Force in Dryads and race Boggle both on the play and the draw. 6-0 (6)
2.) PirateKing: I don't think I can win here. I have to counter the Prototype if I want to be able to win and then even holding Force of Will, both Racks will win the race, play and draw doesn't seem to matter. 0-6 (6)
3.) Matsu: Pretty sure I can't beat Missteps or Factory, play/draw doesn't matter. 0-6 (6)
4.) CptHaddock: Can't beat both Misstep and Force. 0-6 (6)
5.) Taconaut: Eventually lose to Griffin plus Confiscate. 0-6 (6)
6.) Mr. Safety: Force the Bridge, race the Tongs with Dryad, I don't think play/draw matters. 6-0 (12)
7.) Clx33: "H: Tropical Island, Force of Will, Force Spike, Old-Growth Dryads - I force dryads, you force back, I can land a propaganda, but if you play nothing, if I play griffin, you force, then I lose my propagannda too force back, but your dryad coming down the next turn is too late. So you need to dryad earlier and not force my force, meaning you can force my griffin, and we draw. If i don't force drad and take some hits to land propaganda, I can't cast griffin with protection, so again, it's a draw" I tend to forget the option of do nothing, so this does seem it would be a draw. 2-2 (14)
8.) Fallen_Empire: Force the Torper Orb, don't he can do anything meaningful after. 6-0 (20)
9.) tescrin: EDIT: tescrin actually wins on the Play, playing a Factory, I play Dryads, he plays Crystal Vein, I can't attack because he can trade and have a factory left over, so I'd have to pass, he plays a second Factory and can attack for 3, if I trade yourself I lose, so you take 3 and crack back for 3 myself, but then the volley ends with him at 3 and me at 0.

When I am on the play though Dryad comes down first, you can hit for 3 before Factories are live, but past that you're stuck back into the same loop as before, only you'll win if tescrin attacks, so they don't, and it's a draw. 1-3 (21)
10.) PapriNgomo: Force Leopard, win with Dryads. 6-0 (27)
11.) ronco: Force of Will the Smallpox, win with Dryad. 6-0 (33)
12.) JackaBo: Force The Seer, win with Dryad. 6-0 (39)
13.) BYE: Myself.
14.) mistercakes: Force the Culling, win with Dryad. 6-0 (45)
15.) Dan Pyre: Force Crusader, win with Dryad. 6-0 (51)
16.) kombatkiwi: This one is actually rather complicated, probably need help getting this right. On the play, I play Trop into Dryad. He plays Bog tapped. I attack, putting him to 17. He untaps, if he plays Smallpox, I Spike it. If he plays Bitterblossom, I have to let it resolve. So, in the case of Smallpox first, it gets Spiked, and on my turn I attack him to 14. On his next turn, he cast Bitterblossom and I can't do anything. On my turn, I attack him to 11. His turn, make one Fairie, go to 10. My turn, I attack, he can't block or he gets no where, so he goes down to 8. His turn, he is at 7 and two has two fearies, so he can attack with one, putting me at 19. My turn, he can't profitably block, so he goes to 5. I think this ends up that once he has 3 Fearies to block with, he can't both block and attack back fast enough to win before he loses to his own Bitterblossom.

On the draw, though, he has the time to win, because he ends up with the three toekns to block while at 7. Which is better than when he was on the draw, so he will win. 3-3 (54)
17.) Tylert: Force the Eureka, win with Dryad. 6-0 (60)
18.) Ace/Homebrew: Force the Myth, win with Dryad. 6-0 (66)
19.) spartan117: Force the Vineyard, no way for him to activate the Village, win with Dryad. 6-0 (72)
20.) beardstorm: On the play, Dryad just directly races and win. On the Draw, Force the Spike to get Dryad and race to win. 6-0 (78)
21.) phonics: This one is a little complex too. I don't think I can win, because I can't beat Mishra's Factory. So, I can't stop the Rack through the Blackmail, so I lose in any case. 0-6 (78)
22.) Sloshthedark: I can't race the manlands. 0-6 (78)
23.) JosefK: On the play, I should win, because we have identical clocks, but mine comes out sooner. On the draw, he can snag my land or creature before I play it, so I have to Force. I think this means I am still a turn faster with my threat, but his hits on my upkeep, so I'd lose. 3-3 (81)
24.) spirit of the wretch: We can both stop each other's threat, so will just be a draw in every case. 2-2 (83)
25.) apple713: I believe this is a draw, because I can Force the Mana Tithe, but he can't attack with Factory past Dyrad and I can't attack past Factory myself. 2-2 (85)
26.) Darklingske: This is another complicated math one. I think I can Force the second Punishing Fire that will need to kill my Dryad, which will give me enough time to win before he can do it again (Hold needs to be tapped for 4 turns, so it's a 5 turn cycle). 6-0 (91)
27.) FTW: I don't think I can win on the play or the draw here, because I can't Force Student. 0-6 (91)
28.) Kap'n Cook: I can't beat Rampager and I can't force a draw because of Familiar. 0-6 (91)

I'm stupid and realized my list was bad the moment I sent it. Force Spike is useless and should be an unblockable threat. Oh well, it would have only done slightly better. 91 doesn't seem terrible though.

I actually think Force is OK, but Griffin is kind of stupid and OP, but likely The Rack should be banned too and Blackmail seems absurd because it can take lands.

Keep in mind, I wrote all this pre-coffee so that plus general stupidity likely accounts for any errors above.

[PirateKing]

Question for Asthereal

In this match would we go to stalemate because he isn't forced to play eureka? I can't tap out to attack for fear of eureka and he can't cast it for fear of tithe?

Playing optimally, I'd think so.
Playing anything for either player results in a loss, so it's best case draw for both players.
Guess WOPR was right all along

[H]

Playing optimally, I'd think so.
Playing anything for either player results in a loss, so it's best case draw for both players.

I agree.


Guess WOPR was right all along

Not sure what this means.

[PirateKing]

Not sure what this means.
the only winning move is not to play (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WarGames)

[H]

the only winning move is not to play (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WarGames)

Ah, ok.

On a side note, I actually think Force of Will is "good for the format" and is only really absurd in the case where you have Griffin. Even so, those decks are painfully slow, so maybe they are OK.

[JackaBo]

Thanks to Asthereal who organized this awesome tornament!
My super lame deck gave 80 Points IICC


Player: Deck OTP OTD Points
1. Asthereal (TO): Force of Will, Sea's Claim, Slippery Bogle, Island L L 0
2. PirateKing: City of Traitors, The Rack, The Rack, Lupine Prototype L L 0
3. Matsu: Rishadan Port, Mishra's factory,Mental Misstep, Mental Misstep W W 6
4. CptHaddock: Force of Will, Misthollow Griffin, Saprazzan Cove, Mental Misstep L L 0
5. Taconaut: Force of Will, Misthollow Griffin, Saprazzan Cove, Confiscate L L 0
6. Mr. Safety: City of Traitors, Elvish Spirit Guide, Ensnaring Bridge, Scalding Tongs W D 4
7. Clx33: Saprazzan Cove, Force of Will, Misthollow Griffin, Propaganda L L 0
8. Fallen_Empire: City of Traitors, Torpor Orb, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Phyrexian Dreadnought W L 3
9. tescrin: Sphere of Resistance, Crystal Vein, Mishra's Factory, Mishra's Factory W W 6
10. PapriNgomo: Undiscovered Paradise, Undiscovered Paradise, Scythe Leopard, Adventuring Gear W W 6
11. ronco: Swamp, Smallpox, Nether Spirit, Lotus Petal W L 3
12. JackaBo: City of traitors, Simian spirit guide, Simian spirit guide, Thought-knot-seer
13. H: Tropical Island, Force of Will, Force Spike, Old-Growth Dryads L L 0
14. mistercakes: swamp, culling the weak, shield sphere, phyrexian obliterator W L 3
15. Dan Pyre: Swamp, Cabal Ritual, Lotus Petal, Phyrexian Crusader W W 6
16. kombatkiwi: Peat Bog, Bitterblossom, Nether Spirit, Smallpox W W 6
17. Tylert: Havenwood Battleground, city of traitors, Eureka, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn W W 6
18. Ace/Homebrew: Leyline of the Void, Leyline of Sanctity, Serra's Sanctum, Myth Realized L L 0
19. spartan117: The Tabernacle At Pendrell Vale, Eladamri's Vineyard, Treetop Village, Field Of Ruin W W 6
20. beardstorm: Island, Zealous Guardian, Force Spike, Sea's Claim W L 3
21. phonics: Swamp, Mishra's Factory, Blackmail, The Rack W L 3
22. Sloshthedark: Blinkmoth Nexus, Inkmoth Nexus, City of Traitors, Sphere of Resistance W L 3
23. JosefK: Blackmail, Cabal Therapy, Swamp, The Rack W L 3
24. spirit of the wretch: Leyline of Singularity, Karakas, City of Traitors, Hangarback Walker D L 1
25. apple713: Plains, Mishra's Factory, Mana Tithe, Leyline of the Void W L 3
26. Darklingske: Tabernacle of Pendrell Vale, Grove of the Burnwillows, [cards]Punishing Fire, Dwarven Hold W W 6
27. FTW: Leyline of the Void, Scrubland, Cabal Therapy, Student of Warfare W L 3
28. Kap'n Cook: Force of Will, Judge's Familiar, Tropical Island, Greenbelt Rampager L L 0
Results 80



Thoughts:
The deck wins on the play alot thanks to the built in Thoughtseize. I can not beat fow at all.
Please let me know if you want me to explain any of the results.
The rack and lupine prototype where cool tech!

Bans:
FOW is very strong, especially with Misthollow Griffin - One of them maybe need the axe?
Therapy and Blackmail should be banned if Thoughtseize is.

[apple713]

1. Asthereal (TO): If you attack with your Factory, I get to Claim it and Bogle wins. So you don't attack, keeping Mana Tithe for defense. If I try to Claim your Factory and protect my Claim with FoW, I have to pitch Bogle, leaving me without a wincon. So I also don't do anything. That's two draws. 2-2 (2)
2. PirateKing: You have extra mana to cast through tithe and win 0-6 (2)
3. Matsu: Neither of us cast spells and you race me losing 1 factory but the other wins. 0-6 (2)
4. CptHaddock: No one casts spells. Misthollow is faster than Mishra 0-6 (2)
5. Taconaut: Same as above 0-6 (2)
6. Mr. Safety: OTP you cast tongs before I can counter and I can never attack for fear of bride. OTD I hold out to counter your tongs. If you use spirit guide to pay for tithe I win, so you cast nothing. If I tap out to attack you land tongs then bridge. 1-3 (3)
7. Clx33: Saprazzan Cove, Force of Will, Misthollow Griffin, Propaganda Lose race to misthollow 0-6 (3)
8. Fallen_Empire: OTP you cast torper and win. OTD we stalemate because I counter your torper if you try to play it and I can’t tap out to attack. 1-3 (4)
9. tescrin: 2 Mishra’s are better than 1 0-6 (4)
10. PapriNgomo: Eventually you race and win. 0-6 (4)
11. ronco: Leyline of the Void too strong. Stalemate because I cant tap out to attack for fear of stalemate… 2-2 (6)
12. JackaBo: OTP you win but OTD it’s a draw bcause I can’t tap out. 1-3 (7)
13. H: No spells cast. Mishras blocks old growth and we draw both games. 2-2 (9)
14. mistercakes: OTP you win but OTD it’s a stalemate because I can’t tap out. 1-3 (10)
15. Dan Pyre: Stalemate both games because I can block your attack but can’t race. Manatithe irrelevant. 2-2 (12)
16. kombatkiwi: Stalemate, OTP you never cast bitterblossom for fear of counter and I can never attack. Leyline prevents smallpox from being cast. Smallpox thows game into draw. 2-2 (14)
17. Tylert: Stalemate because neither of us can tap out for fear of losing. 2-2 (16) He needs to fix his matchup
18. Ace/Homebrew: Myth bigger than Mishras 0-6 (16)
19. spartan117: Stalemate, you can never cast Eladamri's Vineyard, but I can never attack. 0-6 (18)
20. beardstorm: This is like an improved version of mine. OTP you cast zealous guarding before I can counter it. I can never block for fear of island. OTD it’s a stalemate because I never tap out to prevent zealous. If you try to seas curse something I’ll counter that and I can race zealous. 1-3 (19)
21. phonics: blackmail hax 0-6 (19)
22. Sloshthedark: You win the race because you can block with blinkmoth 0-6 (19)
23. JosefK: blackmail hax 0-6 (19)
24. spirit of the wretch: You can pay for hangerback 0-6 (19)
25. apple713:
26. Darklingske: Stalemate, 1 pfire prevents attacks but 1 pfire can’t win the game either. Leyline strong. 2-2 (21)
27. FTW: cabal takes tithe and student is bigger than Mishra 0-6 (21)
28. Kap'n Cook: Greenbelt bigger than mishras 0-6 (21)


19 total, adjusted for errors


Lessons learned
Don’t submit a list at like 3am on no sleep
Mishras failed me. Zealous guardian is so much better in my deck.
Almost no one played removal… Everyone with the counterspells and discard.


Recommended bans

These are just thoughts. I’d like to see how the games shake out though before deciding.

Blackmail (oppressive because it pulls lands, even basics)
Cabal therapy (has to go if thoughtseize is gone)
Lion's Eye Diamond (I thought this was good too but no one played this but I was prepared with leyline. Maybe we see how this plays out in future metas?)
Eureka (4 mana spells are typically all in in this format but chancellor is the problem with it. Alone chancellor is generally garbage so Eureka has to go. If it gets countered it’s beat by anything though.)
Misthollow Griffin or Force of Will (Force seems fine alone because it’s a 241 but Misthollow seems like the big offender cause it’s the enabler. However, I see problems down the road with the Mercadian counter lands that add counters. They are slow but will typically allow force of will to be too strong because they dont lose a resource to play an additional land)
The Rack (maybe too powerful because discard is a strong enabler and no one can fill their hand. Maybe people just need to pack removal? Almost no one played removal of any kind)

[Tylert]

Question for Asthereal

In this match would we go to stalemate because he isn't forced to play eureka? I can't tap out to attack for fear of eureka and he can't cast it for fear of tithe?

Yes, you are right. i won't play eureka, you won't tap out so it's a stalemate. 2-2.

[PirateKing]

20. beardstorm: This is like an improved version of mine. OTP you cast zealous guarding before I can counter it. I can never block for fear of island. OTD it’s a stalemate because I never tap out to prevent zealous. If you try to seas curse something I’ll counter that and I can race zealous.

These should both be draws. OTP the only safe time to cast Sea's Claim is after blocks, so you'll have an island in MP2 but he won't have a creature. No other threats remain.

[Mr. Safety]

Super fun contest! I realize now that The Rack is a better win condition than Scalding Tongs (in racing situations.)

Looks like I ended up with 68

1- OTP - Force has to hit Tongs due to racing math including 1 life for Force, then Bridge locks out attacks DRAW (1), OTD same situation DRAW (1) {2 total}
2- OTP – Racks win race easily, LOSS, OTD same, LOSS (0)
3-OTP – Bridge t1, tongs t2, WIN (3), OTD Bridge t1, Port active prevents Tongs, DRAW (1) {4 total}
4-OTP-Force Bridge, Misthollow wins race, LOSS. OTD-same, LOSS (0)
5-OTP-Force Bridge, Misthollow beats, LOSS. OTD-same, LOSS (0)
6-BYE (lol)
7-OTP-another Force/Griffin matchup? Ugh, LOSS, OTD same, LOSS (0)
8-OTP- big 12/12, twice! Bridge says no, WIN (3), OTD-same WIN (3) {6 total}
9-OTP- Bridge gets ahead of Sphere but Tongs uncastable, DRAW (1), OTD sphere stops all, LOSS (0) {1 Total}
10-OTP-Bridge WIN (3), OTD same, WIN (3) {6 total}
11-OTP-Bridge forces draw, DRAW (1), OTD-smallpox forces draw (discard tongs), if he waits a turn I still land Bridge and he poxes, forcing DRAW (1) {2 total}
12-OTP-Bridge forces DRAW (1), OTD Thought-Knot takes Bridge, LOSS (0) {1 total}
13-OTP-Force pitch Spike on Bridge, 3/3 beats LOSS (0), OTD- same LOSS (0)
14-OTP-Bridge wins easily, WIN (3), OTD – same WIN (3) {6 total}
15-OTP-Another favorable matchup, WIN (3), OTD – same WIN (3) {6 total}
16-OTP-Bog is too slow of a mana source, I get both Bridge and Tongs down before he untaps(3), OTD-bog allows Smallpox but bridge stops beats DRAW (1) {4 total}
17-OTP-doesn’t matter if it’s 100/100, Bridge WIN (3), OTD-same WIN (3) {6 total}
18-OTP-Bridge t1, Tongs can't target through Leyline DRAW (1), OTD-same, I can't target, he can't attack, DRAW(1) {2 total}
19-OTP-Bridge WIN (3), OTD same WIN (3) {6 total}
20-OTP-Spikes Tongs or Claim on City so it can't be played, DRAW (1), OTD Spikes Bridge, LOSS (0) {1 Total}
21-OTP-Rack drain, LOSS (0), OTD-Blackmail takes Bridge/Guige, Rack & Factory make quick work LOSS (0)
22-OTP-Bridge and then Sphere forces DRAW (1), OTD-Sphere wins LOSS (0) {1 total}
23-OTP-Blackmail takes Tongs LOSS (0), OTD-Blackmail takes a crucial piece, LOSS (0)
24-OTP-cool combo but doesn't bounce Bridge WIN (3), OTD-same WIN (3) {6 total}
25-OTP-Bridge forces DRAW (1), OTD-Tithe Bridge, Tongs too slow, LOSS (0) {1 total}
26-OTP-PFire combo too slow with available mana, Tongs WIN (3), OTD-same WIN (3) {6 total}
27-OTP-Bridge gets down but Therapy nabs Tongs DRAW (1), OTD – if he goes first in the round I can still force a draw (unlikely he names Bridge in the blind) if he is second OTP he knows Bridge, names it and wins easily. OTD-LOSS {1 total}
28-OTP-Bridge gets Force-d, Rampager beats LOSS (0), OTD-same but faster LOSS (0)

Total Points = 68

[Mr. Safety]

the only winning move is not to play (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WarGames)

Matthew Broderick FTW.

[PirateKing]

Pretty sure as I understand it both games are played with perfect information, hence Cabal Therapy being totally busted. So assume they will take the best line possible.

So you OTP need to jam Bridge or lose, then you'll lose Tongs and it's a draw
OTD you'll lose bridge and get raced

[Mr. Safety]

Pretty sure as I understand it both games are played with perfect information, hence Cabal Therapy being totally busted. So assume they will take the best line possible.

So you OTP need to jam Bridge or lose, then you'll lose Tongs and it's a draw
OTD you'll lose bridge and get raced

Decklists are known ahead of time? If not, why would he name Bridge in the blind g1 while he's on the Play? If he doesn't, I get to jam Bridge and it's a draw. On the play I jam t1 Bridge, he plays Therapy and names Scalding Tongs? I think that is unlikely given the unknown nature of this format. Game order is pretty important here for perfect information on Therapy.

[PirateKing]

Decklists are known ahead of time? If not, why would he name Bridge in the blind g1 while he's on the Play? If he doesn't, I get to jam t1 Bridge and it's a draw. On the play I jam t1 Bridge, he plays Therapy and names Scalding Tongs? I think that is unlikely given the unknown nature of this format.

There is no unknown. Decklists are public and if there is a line that gets a better result, it's taken.
As others are saying, Cabal Therapy is busted in this narrow format, so it'll be out with Thoughtseize and Blackmail.

[tescrin]

1. Asthereal (TO): 2-0 (6pts) ; Bogle can't beat (or race) Factory #2
2. PirateKing: 0-2; (0pts) Racks win the race
3. Matsu: 2-0 (6pts -12 total) 2 Factories > 1 Factory
4. CptHaddock: 2-0; (6pts -18total) If you attack with Griffin you lose the race. If you block I pump Factory #1 to 3 and kill the griffin; leaving a second factory to kill you
5. Taconaut: 0-2; If you go "rush" confiscate then I'm stalled until you Griffin
6. Mr. Safety: 1-0-1; (4pts - 21 total) You're locked out OTD, I'm locked out OTD EDIT: added 4th point at end of post
7. Clx33: 0-2; locked by Propaganda
8. Fallen_Empire: 1-1; (3pts 24 total) OTD you can't play Orb. OTD I get munched
9. It's a me!
10. PapriNgomo: 0-0-2 (2pts 26 total) The biggest you can get is 4/4; which I can block with two factories. But I can't attack because I will lose the race.
11. ronco: 1-0-1 (4pts 30 total) You lose OTD because you can't cast anything. OTP you cast smallpox so you don't get locked out, then you block every turn because you'll lose the race
12. JackaBo: 1-0-1 (4pts 30 total) You lose OTD because you can't cast anything. OTP we draw because TKS is max 4/4, which a factory pumped by the other will block and kill, causing you to lose, so you instead hold back since I can't attack either.
13. H: 1-0-1 (4pts 32 total EDIT: Actually 4 but corrected at bottom!) We end up standing off either way. If I go for a Sphere OTP you'll force it, so it's the same. You can't attack into me and I can't win the race attacking into you. (If I attack I have no mana for Factory #2 to block.) OTD we tie because you can't attack without losing. OTP I win the race by 1 turn and you can't block without losing
14. mistercakes: 1-0-1 (3pts 35 total) OTD you can't play anything, OTP EDIT: I sac vein to turn on both factories, killing the oblit (or we stalemate)
15. Dan Pyre: 1-0-1 (4pts 39 total) OTD you get locked out. OTP I can make a 4/4 to block causing a stalemate
16. kombatkiwi: 2-0 (6pts 45 total) You're always locked out by sphere
17. Tylert: 2-0 (6pts) You're always locked out by sphere
18. Ace/Homebrew: 0-2; (2pts 47 total EDIT: Actually 0 Corrected points at bottom!) you pump Myth until he's 4/4 or bigger; but can't win the race I think (at 5/5 OTP you're at 6 HP) so we stalemate since you can block/win Myth is all instant speed so he eventually becomes a 20/20 and kills me.
19. spartan117: ) 0-0-2 (2pts 49 total) No matter the play sequence the treetop can't attack through a single factory (after you kill the first.) I can't win the race if I attack-> stalemate
20. beardstorm: 2-0 (6pts 55 total) Double factory beats 1/1 flash
21. phonics: 0-2 I believe Rack outpaces me
22. Sloshthedark: 0-2 My brudda! Infect outpaces Factories
23. JosefK: 1-1 OTD (3pts 58 total) you're locked out, OTP you win by 2 damage I think (we do the same amount every turn, but you have "haste" so to speak)
24. spirit of the wretch: 0-2; Hangerback eventually outsizes Factories and can threaten block+pump; meaning I can't attack. You can stall until you're a 20/20.
25. apple713: 2-0; (6pts 64 total) I always attack, pump to 3/3. If you block you lose that factory and I kill you with the other one. If you race you lose 2/2 vs 3/3.
26. Darklingske: 2-0 (6pts 70 total) You have to cast double PFire to kill Factory #1; which is too slow; especially if I Sphere (meaning you need 7 mana; then require 3 more for second factory)
27. FTW: 1-1 (3pts 73 total) You get locked OTD. OTP we stalemate until you're an 8/4; in which I'm screwed.
28. Kap'n Cook: 0-0-2 (2pts 75 total) I slow-roll Sphere either way; you force it or lose. When you do, we eventually stalemate because Greenbelt can't attack into a blocking 4/4 and I can't attack into it.

Too many "nobody can attack" issues. Had those draws been 1-1's, we'd each have an extra point and I'd be at 80ish. Worth noting for next time.

EDIT: I missed a Draw for Mr. Safety; so total is 76 not 75 (+1 net point)
EDIT: Corrected Myth's game from draws to losses? 74 is new total (-2 net points)
EDIT: Corrected H's game. I win a game here rather than two draws; bringing me to 76 (+2 net points)
EDIT: Corrected Mr Cake's game; I don't lose OTD, I tie. Thanks Wrath! (+1 net point)

77 (see edits)

[H]

All information must be perfect, otherwise we couldn't come to actual optimal lines.

[Mr. Safety]

There is no unknown. Decklists are public and if there is a line that gets a better result, it's taken.
As others are saying, Cabal Therapy is busted in this narrow format, so it'll be out with Thoughtseize and Blackmail.

Gotcha. I would argue that due to perfect information Therapy is definitely a ban-worthy card then. Format isn't really blind then, amiright?

[PirateKing]

Gotcha. I would argue that due to perfect information Therapy is definitely a ban-worthy card then. Format isn't really blind then, amiright?

I don't know the origin if the name, but yeah. Round 1 is wild west. Didn't plan for Misstep either

[H]

13. H: 0-0-1 (2pts 32 total) We end up standing off either way. If I go for a Sphere OTP you'll force it, so it's the same. You can't attack into me and I can't win the race attacking into you. (If I attack I have no mana for Factory #2 to block.)

Hmmm, I forgot about the mana issue with that. Seems you'd be right, that would be a draw.

Perhaps I need to reevaluate my other losses to Factories.


18. Ace/Homebrew: 0-0-2; (2pts 47 total) you pump Myth until he's 4/4 or bigger; but can't win the race I think (at 5/5 OTP you're at 6 HP) so we stalemate since you can block/win

Wouldn't then Myth win the game, because he can bring it all the way to a 20/20 and you'd have to block. At which point, he wins, because he is still at 6 and a crack-back would only take him to 4 and blocking only delays the inevitable.

[mistercakes]

can we also ban meddling mage? seems not so fun. :)

leyline of anticipation, 2 lotus petal, meddling mage. (feels similar to the cabal therapy lines)

how do i find my results?

[Mr. Safety]

how do i find my results?

Post your best estimates, other players confirm/correct. Waiting for poor Asthereal to grind through all of them is a torture I wouldn't want to inflict on him.

[FTW]

FTW's Results for S01R01: Leyline of the Void, Scrubland, Cabal Therapy, Student of Warfare

1. Asthereal (TO): Draw both ways. 2-2 (2)
2. PirateKing: I can Therapy Racks or Lupine, but the other outraces Student. 0-6 (2)
3. Matsu: I call Judge for violating the Legacy B/R. Alternately, you Mental Misstep both Therapy and Student. 0-6 (2)
4. CptHaddock: Same as #3. You Misstep Therapy and Force Student. 0-6 (2)
5. Taconaut: OTP I Therapy and you FoW it. Student is 1 turn too slow, putting you to 4 (Level 6) the turn before you would Confiscate. I flashback Therapy Confiscate and you cast Griffin FTW. OTD I'm 2 turns too slow. 0-6 (2)
6. Mr. Safety: OTP I Therapy Bridge and Student wins. OTD you play Bridge, I Therapy Tongs, and we draw. 4-1 (6)
7. Clx33: Therapy trades with Force, Propaganda locks student, and Griffin flies over FTW. 0-6 (6)
8. Fallen_Empire: I Therapy Dreadnoughts and Student wins. 6-0 (12)
9. tescrin: OTP I Therapy Sphere. Student plays defense until level 7, then crushes face. OTD you sac Vein to play Sphere and I can't play spells. 3-3 (15)
10. PapriNgomo: I Therapy Leopard or Gear and Student wins. 6-0 (21)
11. ronco: Leyline! OTP I Therapy Smallpox and Student wins. OTD if you play turn 1 Smallpox, I discard Cabal Therapy and cast Student FTW. If you hold back Smallpox, I Therapy it and win with Student. 6-0 (27)
12. JackaBo: OTP I Therapy Thought-Knot Seer and Student beats Gray Ogre. OTD you Thought-Knot me and I lose. 3-3 (30)
13. H: Therapy trades with your counters. You can FoW it, I can Therapy you naming Force Spike, or you can Force Spike Therapy OTD. Then Student beats Dryads. 6-0 (36)
14. mistercakes: OTP I Therapy Obliterator, then Student beats through Shield Sphere. OTD Obliterator wrecks me. 3-3 (39)
15. Dan Pyre: OTP I Therapy Crusader and win. OTD Crusader has pro-white FTW. 3-3 (42)
16. kombatkiwi: Bitterblossom can outrace Student. You suck up some hits to get to 3 tokens, then attack with 2 and chump forever. The 2 tokens narrowly outrace Bitterblossom life loss (OTP you'd win at 1 life). Therefore I must force a draw. I reveal Leyline, Therapy Bitterblossom, and Smallpox stops Student. 2-2 (44)
17. Tylert: For fun, I could Therapy Emrakul instead. It gets exiled due to Leyline. 6-0 (50)
18. Ace/Homebrew: I can force you to trade and draw because Student gets in too many early hits. See below. 2-2 (52)
19. spartan117: I Therapy Vineyard, shutting off Treetop Village and Field of Ruin. I cast Student and pay the upkeep forever while beating you for 1. 6-0 (58)
20. beardstorm: OTP if I Therapy either Force Spike or Sea's Claim the other one stops Student, so I take Guardian and force a draw. OTD you Force Spike my first play (Therapy/Student), then Sea's Claim to stop the other and win with Guardian. 1-4 (59)
21. phonics: I don't play Leyline. OTP I lead with Student. You play The Rack, then next turn Blackmail one of my 2 cards. Student holds off Factory, but The Rack bleeds me for 2 a turn. Student gets to level 7, but a turn too slow to win the race. OTD I have to hide Scrubland from Blackmail, you take Student and win. 0-6 (59)
22. Sloshthedark: I can Therapy Sphere OTP, but Inky outraces Student. 0-6 (59)
23. JosefK: I fail to play Leyline. OTP I play Student, keep leveling, and outrace The Rack. OTD you play Rack and Student is 1 turn too slow. 3-3 (62)
24. spirit of the wretch: OTP I Therapy Walker and draw. OTD 1/1 Walker kills me. 1-4 (63)
25. apple713: Mana Tithe and Therapy trade (either I Therapy it or you counter it). Student outraces Factory. 6-0 (69)
26. Darklingske: I Therapy Punishing Fire and Leyline exiles it. I play Student, pay the upkeep forever, and beat you for 1. 6-0 (75)
27. FTW: That's me.
28. Kap'n Cook: OTP I Therapy Judge's Familiar, then Student outraces Rampager. OTD you lead with Rampager (to get energy), I Therapy Judge's Familar, and Student still outraces you by 1 turn (hits Level 7). 6-0 (83)

Total: 83 points.


Grind vs Ace (you going first)
T1 - You play Myth. I play Student.
T2 - Level 1. I attack for 1. EOT you add 1 lore. (19)
T3 - L2. Attack for 3. EOT you go to 2 Lore. (16)
T4 - L3. Attack for 3. EOT 3rd Lore. (13)
T5 - L4. Attack for 3. You still can't profitably block (first strike), so EOT 4th Lore. (10)
T6 - If you attack for 4, I outrace you, so you hold. L5. I can't attack. EOT 5th lore.
T7 - If you attack for 5, I outrace you, so you hold. L6. I can't attack. EOT 6th lore.
T8 - L7. 4/4 double strike. I attack. You block as a 6/6 and trade, or you go to 2 and trade as a 7/7 next turn. (If you attacked, I win the race)

Lol I was going to run removal or another threat (The Rack, Doomed Traveler for Therapy shenanigans) in place of Leyline, but I was too worried about beating Unburial Rites -> Iona. Leyline turned out to be bad.

Edit: I forgot Leyline beats Darklingske's Punishing Fire.
Edit2: JosefK actually trades games with me.

[tescrin]

Wouldn't then Myth win the game, because he can bring it all the way to a 20/20 and you'd have to block. At which point, he wins, because he is still at 6 and a crack-back would only take him to 4 and blocking only delays the inevitable.

I believe you're correct, rethinking it. I was thinking you had to choose between pumping vs blocking (basically during your own upkeep) but you can actually pump if I don't attack. I'll go revise

[H]

9. tescrin: Sphere of Resistance, Crystal Vein, Mishra's Factory, Mishra's Factory
vs.
13. H: Tropical Island, Force of Will, Force Spike, Old-Growth Dryads

Could someone double, or triple check this for me?

At first I figured this was a loss, but tescrin pointed out that even if he doesn't bother to cast Sphere (and he shouldn't, there isn't a point) he doesn't have the mana to both attack with a Factory and block with the other profitably. So, I think that means we'd both just be in a stalemate, because it will always end up better for him to not attack. I think.

[PirateKing]

Could someone double, or triple check this for me?

At first I figured this was a loss, but tescrin pointed out that even if he doesn't bother to cast Sphere (and he shouldn't, there isn't a point) he doesn't have the mana to both attack with a Factory and block with the other profitably. So, I think that means we'd both just be in a stalemate, because it will always end up better for him to not attack. I think.

Doesn't tescrin win OTP, playing a Factory, you play Dryads, he plays Crystal Vein, you can't attack because he can trade and have a factory left over, so you pass, he plays a second Factory and can attack for 3, if you trade yourself you lose, so you take 3 and crack back for 3 yourself, but then the volley ends with him at 3 and you at 0.

With you OTP Dryad comes down first, you can hit for 3 before Factories are live, but past that you're stuck back into the same loop as before, only you'll win if tescrin attacks, so they don't, and it's a draw.

[tescrin]

Doesn't tescrin win OTP, playing a Factory, you play Dryads, he plays Crystal Vein, you can't attack because he can trade and have a factory left over, so you pass, he plays a second Factory and can attack for 3, if you trade yourself you lose, so you take 3 and crack back for 3 yourself, but then the volley ends with him at 3 and you at 0.

I think you're right. I was thinking he got to get an attack in so I couldn't win the race; but if I defend T2 then he can't attack without losing, and he can't block without losing. I'll go make amendment #3 to my post haha

[mistercakes]

Post your best estimates, other players confirm/correct. Waiting for poor Asthereal to grind through all of them is a torture I wouldn't want to inflict on him.

how do i see everyone's lists? is there a post somewhere? i didn't see it on opening post.

[Ace/Homebrew]

A little annoyed about Mental Misstep because I pushed for it's legality, but read ''Legacy Banned List' + cards'... Oh well, my all in on a 1 drop deck got worse. :rolleyes:

1. Asthereal: Force of Will, Sea's Claim, Slippery Bogle, Island - 0, 0
2. PirateKing: City of Traitors, The Rack, The Rack, Lupine Prototype - 0, 0
3. Matsu: Rishadan Port, Mishra's factory, Mental Misstep, Mental Misstep - 0, 0
4. CptHaddock: Force of Will, Misthollow Griffin, Saprazzan Cove, Mental Misstep - 0, 0
5. Taconaut: Force of Will, Misthollow Griffin, Saprazzan Cove, Confiscate - 0, 0
6. Mr. Safety: City of Traitors, Elvish Spirit Guide, Ensnaring Bridge, Scalding Tongs - 1, 1 ( Tongs says 'target' and I have 'can't be targetedable')
7. Clx33: Saprazzan Cove, Force of Will, Misthollow Griffin, Propaganda - 0, 0
8. Fallen_Empire: City of Traitors, Torpor Orb, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Phyrexian Dreadnought - 0, 0
9. tescrin: Sphere of Resistance, Crystal Vein, Mishra's Factory, Mishra's Factory - 3, 3
10. PapriNgomo: Undiscovered Paradise, Undiscovered Paradise, Scythe Leopard, Adventuring Gear - 3, 3 (it takes 6 turns but MR finally gets big enough then we stare at each other until MR threatens lethal and you chump, then take lethal the following turn)
11. ronco: Swamp, Smallpox, Nether Spirit, Lotus Petal - 1, 1
12. JackaBo: City of traitors, Simian spirit guide, Simian spirit guide, Thoughtknot-seer - 0, 0 (assuming lowest life breaks draws, cause we'd draw when I'm OTP)
13. H: Tropical Island, Force of Will, Force Spike, Old-Growth Dryads - 0, 0
14. mistercakes: swamp, culling the weak, shield sphere, phyrexian obliterator - 0, 0
15. Dan Pyre: Swamp, Cabal Ritual, Lotus Petal, Phyrexian Crusader - 0, 0
16. kombatkiwi: Peat Bog, Bitterblossom, Nether Spirit, Smallpox - 0, 0
17. Tylert: Havenwood Battleground, city of traitors, Eureka, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn - 0, 0
18. Ace/Homebrew
19. spartan117: The Tabernacle At Pendrell Vale, Eladamri's Vineyard, Treetop Village, Field Of Ruin - 0, 0
20. beardstorm: Island, Zealous Guardian, Force Spike, Sea's Claim - 0, 0
21. phonics: Swamp, Mishra's Factory, Blackmail, The Rack - 0, 0
22. Sloshthedark: Blinkmoth Nexus, Inkmoth Nexus, City of Traitors, Sphere of Resistance - 0, 0
23. JosefK: Blackmail, Cabal Therapy, Swamp, The Rack - 0, 0
24. spirit of the wretch: Leyline of Singularity, Karakas, City of Traitors, Hangarback Walker - 0, 0
25. apple713: Plains, Mishra's Factory, Mana Tithe, Leyline of the Void - 3, 3
26. Darklingske: Tabernacle of Pendrell Vale, Grove of the Burnwillows, Punishing Fire, Dwarven Hold - 3, 3
27. FTW: Leyline of the Void, Scrubland, Cabal Therapy, Student of Warfare - 0, 0
28. Kap'n Cook: Force of Will, Judge's Familiar, Tropical Island, Greenbelt Rampager - 0, 0

I count 28

JackaBo, re-check your math. Pretty sure you win OTP and we draw OTD, but I'd lose because it'd end with me at 4 life and you at 20.

Mr. Safety, re-read our cards. :tongue:

Blackmail and Cabal Ritual for banning. Misstep for unbanning (along with other safe cards on the Legacy Banned list).

[H]

Doesn't tescrin win OTP, playing a Factory, you play Dryads, he plays Crystal Vein, you can't attack because he can trade and have a factory left over, so you pass, he plays a second Factory and can attack for 3, if you trade yourself you lose, so you take 3 and crack back for 3 yourself, but then the volley ends with him at 3 and you at 0.

With you OTP Dryad comes down first, you can hit for 3 before Factories are live, but past that you're stuck back into the same loop as before, only you'll win if tescrin attacks, so they don't, and it's a draw.

That makes sense, yeah, so it's should actually be a 1 for me (a draw and a loss) and 4 for tescrin (a win and a draw). Basically, on the play, he has the option to win the race, on the draw, not.

[spirit of the wretch]

how do i see everyone's lists? is there a post somewhere? i didn't see it on opening post.

look here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1064787&viewfull=1#post1064787)

[apple713]

can we also ban meddling mage? seems not so fun. :)

leyline of anticipation, 2 lotus petal, meddling mage. (feels similar to the cabal therapy lines)

how do i find my results?

Meddling mage could be an issue in another deck but not the one you posted. That would lose to anything with 2 decent threats threats.

I think we need to have more completed tournaments to decide if certain cards like this would be ban worthy. Meddling mage is on my watch list tho with a few others.

[H]

Meddling mage could be an issue in another deck but not the one you posted. That would lose to anything with 2 decent threats threats.

I think we need to have more completed tournaments to decide if certain cards like this would be ban worthy. Meddling mage is on my watch list tho with a few others.

Not to mention losing to Force of Will. This is why I think Force is healthy to have, but maybe not Griffin.

[tescrin]

Meddling mage could be an issue in another deck but not the one you posted. That would lose to anything with 2 decent threats threats.

I think we need to have more completed tournaments to decide if certain cards like this would be ban worthy. Meddling mage is on my watch list tho with a few others.

I believe you have the same issues with Mind Maggots* Tidehollow Sculler and other related cards though (in that deck) or if they play those T1. That said, all the decks that play that T1 lose to Chalice decks (which funny enough, was heavily meta-gamed and no one ran it hah!) which was part of why I didn't run a Maggots deck. Those decks are also hyper-weak to removal (such as the heavyweight deck.)


*wrong name. Different maggot card that Sculler's the opp

[Ace/Homebrew]

I think Leyline of Anticipation might be something that has to go in order to keep other cards off the banned list.

[kombatkiwi]

I made things annoying for myself by having to do bitterblossom math
It's getting late and I didn't get through all of it but I will at least confirm what other people have said

Looking at what other people have said vs me:

Asthereal: Agree
Tylert: Agree
Spirit of the Wretch: Agree
PirateKing: Agree
H: I think you actually win if you're on the play. In your calculation it seems like you evaluated it as if I played Bitterblossom on my turn 1, which is impossible (you do lose when I'm on the play though)
JackaBo: Agree
apple713: Agree
Mr. Safety: Agree (The Rack is 'in general' better than Tongs but probably not for you, because if you had Rack instead of Tongs in your deck your opponents worst case is always a draw by just choosing not to do anything)
tescrin: Agree
FTW: Agree
Ace/Homebrew: Agree

I've figured out all of the non-tricky ones and will post full results when I go through the rest tomorrow

[apple713]

I think Leyline of Anticipation might be something that has to go in order to keep other cards off the banned list.

Giving up 1 of your 4 cards to play a card before your opponent doesnt seem good enough. There isnt much you can do with 3 cards to win. Keep in mind you dont get to play land drops instantly so there isnt much you can do with 1-2 mana during opponents turn that will completely bone them.

[H]

1. Asthereal (TO): Force of Will, Sea's Claim, Slippery Bogle, Island
vs.
28. Kap'n Cook: Force of Will, Judge's Familiar, Tropical Island, Greenbelt Rampager


28. Kap'n Cook: Claim stops you from casting Rampager, Familiar gets FoWed pitching Bogle. Two draws. I think. 2-2 (88)

I don't think this is correct.

On the play, Asthereal can turn one either do nothing, or play Boggle. If he does nothing, the game should play out as Kap'n plays land Familiar. If that resolves, Asthereal is basically screwed. If he casts Claim, Familiar is already on the board and so wins the Race versus the Boggle. So, Asthereal's turn one nothing is not good. Instead, Asthereal has to play turn 1 Boggle. Which means, Kap'n can either play turn one Rampager to get an Energy or turn 1 Familiar. If he plays Familiar, Force of Will is off, but he is on board with a counter. Asthereal is winning the race on board, but only if he keeps Kap'n off Rampager. The options are to claim his land or hold up Force. Claim is just bad, because it gets tagged by Familiar and then Rampager can be cast past the dead Force eventually blocking Boggle and winning. So, Force needs to be held up. If Force is held up though, he gets the Rampager through the possible Familiar activation and Kap'n's dead Force, but now loses the race, because he lost one life to cast it.

On the play for Kap'n, he can go turn 1 Familiar. If Asthereal lets it resolve, he loses, because his clock is not faster. So he must Force that. If he pitches Claim, he has no way to stop Rampager. If he pitches Boggle, he loses, because he is dead to the Familiar.

I think that this is just a loss on both sides for Asthereal, if I deduced it correctly. If someone could double check my logic though.

[H]

H: I think you actually win if you're on the play. In your calculation it seems like you evaluated it as if I played Bitterblossom on my turn 1, which is impossible (you do lose when I'm on the play though)

I might have to break out actual cards to do this. It's really hard for me just doing it totally abstracted.

[PirateKing]

On the play for Kap'n, he can go turn 1 Familiar. If Asthereal lets it resolve, he loses, because his clock is not faster. So he must Force that. If he pitches Claim, he has no way to stop Rampager. If he pitches Boggle, he loses, because he is dead to the Familiar.

Force of Will pitching Boggle means Kap'n Cook doesn't get the Judge's Familiar, leaving Asthereal to cast Sea's Claim and lock out the Greenbelt Rampager. So that game is a draw.

[kombatkiwi]

Lets see how shit my idea actually was

KOMBATKIWI: Bitterblossom, Smallpox, Nether Spirit, Peat Bog

1. 0
2. 0
3. 4 [misstep]
4. 2 [misstep]
5. 2
6. 1
7. 0
8. 3
9. 0
10. 6
11. 2
12. 0
13. 3
14. 6
15. 6
16. NA
17. 6
18. 6
19. 0
20. 0
21. 0
22. 0
23. 0
24. 1
25. 2
26. 2
27. 2
28. 6

Banned matchups count as the actual result : 61
Banned matchups are a free 6-0: 67
Banned matchups ignored: 55

I think the deck idea was ok but relying on Peat Bog cost me a lot by not letting me do anything turn 1 on the play vs Sphere / Seas Claim / discard spells

1. Aesthereal: Mono Peat Bog deck can't beat Sea's Claim 0-6
2. PirateKing: If I hold all my cards then I die to Prototype and I lose to double Rack if I Smallpox it away 0-6
3. Matsu: [Banned cards] Misstep does nothing. With me on the play they die to BB but on the draw it's a stalemate because they have to keep Porting me forever 4-1
4. CptHaddock: [Banned cards] He has to force BB or lose. If he plays Cove before I play Smallpox then he loses but if I play Smallpox before he plays Cove he will discard misstep and have enough mana from Cove to stop Spirit with Griffin before dying 2-2
5. Taconaut: Exact same situation as above 2-2
6. Mr. Safety: I can't beat a resolved Bridge, on the play they get bridge + tongs before I cast a spell, on the draw they can only play bridge before I Smallpox Tongs away so nobody can win, 1-4
7. Clx33: If I cast BB when they have all their spells in hand they will let it resolve and use FoW on Smallpox to protect Propaganda, so I lose. If I try to Smallpox their Cove with 3 cards in their hand they FoW pitching Griffin and I lose to Propaganda + return Griffin. So I have to just play Peat Bog and let them charge up Cove to 100 counters. If they cast Griffin with Force + Propaganda backup then I lose because if I cast BB when they're tapped out I will die to Propaganda, and if I cast Smallpox when they're tapped out they FoW pitching Propaganda and hit for 3, and then my follow-up BB is too slow to race Griffin. (Same equation as against H below with me on the draw) 0-6
8. Fallen_Empire: On the play I win because they either go turn 1 City + Orb which loses to Smallpox or turn 1 do nothing which loses to Bitterblossom. On the draw I lose because I can't answer 2 Dreadnoughts 3-3.
9. Tescrin: I can't beat turn1 Sphere play or draw 0-6
10. PapriNgomo: No way to kill me without exposing Leopard to Smallpox 6-0
11. Ronco: Either we do nothing and draw or they cast Smallpox on my tapped Bog and our Nether Spirits have a standoff 2-2
12. JackaBo: Their turn 1 TKS takes Smallpox and BB can't race even if I'm on the play 0-6
13: H: They have to save their counter for Smallpox so my turn 2 BB always resolves, this can race a turn-1 3/3 on the play, but not on the draw 3-3.

Explanation
Me on the play
T1 Bog
T1 Trop, Dryad
T2 BB
T2 Attack (me 17)
T3 Make 1st Fae (16)
T3 Attack (me 13)
T4 Make 2nd Fae (12), attack for 1 (you 19)
T4 Attack (9)
T5 Make 3rd Fae (8) Leave all 3 fae back to block
At this point your best option is to swing and trade hoping I die to BB
T5 Attack, I triple block
T6 Make 1st Fae (7) (from here onward you never do anything)
T7 Make 2nd Fae (6) Attack (18)
T8 Make 3rd Fae (5) Attack (16)
T9 Make 4th Fae (4) Attack (13)
T10 Make 5th Fae (3) Attack (9)
T11 Make 6th Fae (2) Attack (4)
T12 Make 7th Fae (1) Attack (dead)

Me on the draw (If I win at 1 life on the play it should be obvious I lose on the draw but here you go)
T1 Dryad
T1 Bog
T2 Attack (17)
T2 BB
T3 Attack (14)
T3 Make 1 Fae (13)
T4 Attack (10)
T4 Make 2nd Fae (9), Attack (19)
T5 Attack (6)
T5 Make 3rd Fae (5), Leave back blockers
T6 Attack, triple block
T7 Make 1 Fae (4)
T8 Make 2nd Fae (3) Attack (18)
T9 Make 3rd Fae (2) Attack (16)
T10 Make 4th Fae (1) Attack (13)
T11 Make 5th Fae (dead)

14: mistercakes: If they do nothing they lose to BB and if they cast Obliterator then they lose to smallpox 6-0
15: Dan Pyre: Exact same situation as above 6-0
16: kombatkiwi -----
17: Tylert: They can never attack me with Emrakul before Smallpox resolves, and if they don't put any lands on the battlefield to play around smallpox then Bitterblossom kills them 6-0
18: Ace/Homebrew: The Leyline of the Void disables Nether Spirit, but I just play turn 2 BB every time. If Myth Realized is on the battlefield then Smallpox destroys Serra's Sanctum and they can't do anything 6-0
19. spartan117: If they play Tabernacle first, then Treetop Village, then Field + Vineyard I lose the game without ever being able to safely cast anything (play or draw) 0-6
20: beardstorm: Another Sea's Claim deck 0-6
21: phonics: Play or draw they discard BB with Blackmail then play Rack + Factory, and my only play is to Smallpox disabling Factory and Nether Spirit loses the race to the Rack. 0-6
22: Sloshthedark: Another turn 1 Sphere deck 0-6
23: JosefK: If they are on the play they goe turn 1 Blackmail turn 2 therapy taking BB and Smallpox so I lose. If I'm on the play they discard Smallpox with Blackmail and BB can't race The Rack 0-6
24: spirit of the wretch: If they don't play Singularity then Hangarback always gets trumped by Bitterblossom, so they have to play it. If my opponent goes first playing Karakas turn 1, then City + Hangarback I lose. If I go first what happens is I play turn 1 Bog and then my opponent does nothing. I can't play BB because I will die to it and if I smallpox to put Spirit into play they will discard Hangarback or City, play Karakas bounce Spirit and nobody can win 1-4
25: apple713: He has to Tithe BB because factory can't race it so both games are a draw when Smallpox resolves. Spirit is Exiled but he can't attack with Factory anymore. 2-2
26: Darklingske: My deck can't beat Tabernacle, but they can't win without exposing another one of their lands to Smallpox in which case they can't win either 2-2
27: FTW: If they let me play turn 2 BB it can race student on the play or the draw, so they have to Therapy it both games leading to 2 draws when I exile my Spirit resetting the board with Smallpox 2-2
28: Kap'n Cook: If they use FoW on BB then they die to Smallpox, so I always play BB asap and they always play Greenbelt as fast as they can leaving Force backup for Smallpox. I win this race on the play and on the draw 6-0

[Mr. Safety]

Mr. Safety, re-read our cards. :tongue:

DOH! Good catch.

[H]

Force of Will pitching Boggle means Kap'n Cook doesn't get the Judge's Familiar, leaving Asthereal to cast Sea's Claim and lock out the Greenbelt Rampager. So that game is a draw.

Ah, ok, I figured something went haywire. I so still a loss and a draw?.

Kap'n cant cast Familiar on the play, so if he casts Rampager, the choice is either Asthereal Forces that, or lets it resolve. If he Forces, he has to pitch Claim, because if he pitches Boggle, he can't beat Familiar (Claim won't stop Familiar being cast). If he pitches Claim, he loses to Rampager. Right?

If he lets it resolve, Kap'n gets an energy and passes turn. If Asthereal attempts to Claim, Kap'n can Force that, which means either Asthereal Forces back, losing Boggle, so that game would be a draw. If Kap'n lets that Claim resolve though, he can cast Familar, which would then be Forced pitching Boggle and Kap'n can't cast Rampager, so another draw.

So, it looks like one win for Kap'n and one draw?

[H]

H: I think you actually win if you're on the play. In your calculation it seems like you evaluated it as if I played Bitterblossom on my turn 1, which is impossible (you do lose when I'm on the play though)

Yeah, which is actually sort of what I wrote out, but wrote down the score as if I lost both. So, my anaylsis and your's was right, I just got extra stupid at the end. It's one win for each of us.

[PirateKing]

Ah, ok, I figured something went haywire. I so still a loss and a draw?.

Kap'n cant cast Familiar on the play, so if he casts Rampager, the choice is either Asthereal Forces that, or lets it resolve. If he Forces, he has to pitch Claim, because if he pitches Boggle, he can't beat Familiar (Claim won't stop Familiar being cast). If he pitches Claim, he loses to Rampager. Right?

If he lets it resolve, Kap'n gets an energy and passes turn. If Asthereal attempts to Claim, Kap'n can Force that, which means either Asthereal Forces back, losing Boggle, so that game would be a draw. If Kap'n lets that Claim resolve though, he can cast Familar, which would then be Forced pitching Boggle and Kap'n can't cast Rampager, so another draw.

So, it looks like one win for Kap'n and one draw?

Asthereal OTP plays Island and passes. If Kap'n plays Rampager, that opens a window to cast Sea's Claim. Kap'n can't let that happen, so they Force pitch Familiar, Asthereal Forces pitching Boggle. Sea's Claim resolves and it's a draw. If Kap'n casts Familiar then it gets Forced pitching Boggle, then the road is open to cast Sea's Claim. Draw there too. The only way for Astherreal to try and win is to resolve a threat, but that means he has Force or Sea's Claim, not both, and will die to Rampager with Force backup, which is a loss. Impossible for Astherreal to win this game as he needs both Sea's Claim and Force + pitch to not lose, and to do that means sacrificing the only threat.

So Astherreal is right, draw on both accounts.
I think

[H]

So Astherreal is right, draw on both accounts.
I think

OK, yeah, I think that is right then. Not sure what I keep twisting in my mind, but that seems correct.

[kombatkiwi]

Tylert vs Ronco should be a draw for both games, if I understand the rules correctly

Ronco can't win without casting smallpox and if Tylert hasn't played anything yet then they don't have to sacrifice anything and can discard Emrakul, which will reshuffle and draw in the next draw step and can still assemble Battleground + City + Eureka

[JosefK]

I feel like i probably made a ton of errors here.... this is hard...
3 and 4 i called a judge and they got a gameloss! Dunno what we decide on that, i think its a bit unfair letting them count. Not that it matters much to me personally.

16(OTD) and 21, 27 i'm really uncertain about.

16 They go peat bog. I go the rack. If they smallpox i win, as i will deal my 2 damage before nether spirit. If they play bitterblossom i will discard smallpox and do 2 damage a turn + bitterblossomdamage, if i counted correct i win with 5 life.

21 OTP i blackmail and take a land, if its mishra he can blackmail and takes my the rack, i untap and therapies his the rack and it's a draw. So draw is the best i can get.
If he instead plays his the rack i untap take 1 damage, play my the rack and deals 2 to him and win the race.
IF he instead lets me take the swamp, he cant black mail and i will win.
OTD he plays swamp blackmail and take my the rack for a draw (i can't reveal swamp), i think that's the best he can do there?

27 @FTW i think i win on the play. I play the rack, if you therapy me then i def win the race. If you play student i still think i win the race as my damage comes first
You ME Level
20 - 20 0
18 - 19 1
15 - 16 2
12 - 13 3
9 - 10 4
6 - 7 5
3 - 4 6
0 - x 7

13 @H
I think i win on the play, i play discard, you force, you play your creature, i play the rack and i deal damage in your upkeep, so you are dead before you can attack for the last damage.

My deck: Swamp, The Rack, Blackmail, Cabal therapy

Player: Deck OTP OTD Points
1. Asthereal (TO): Force of Will, Sea's Claim, Slippery Bogle, Island W W 6
2. PirateKing: City of Traitors, The Rack, The Rack, Lupine Prototype L L 0
3. Matsu: Rishadan Port, Mishra's factory,Mental Misstep, Mental Misstep W W 6
4. CptHaddock: Force of Will, Misthollow Griffin, Saprazzan Cove, Mental Misstep W W 6
5. Taconaut: Force of Will, Misthollow Griffin, Saprazzan Cove, Confiscate W W 6
6. Mr. Safety: City of Traitors, Elvish Spirit Guide, Ensnaring Bridge, Scalding Tongs W W 6
7. Clx33: Saprazzan Cove, Force of Will, Misthollow Griffin, Propaganda W W 6
8. Fallen_Empire: City of Traitors, Torpor Orb, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Phyrexian Dreadnought W W 6
9. tescrin: Sphere of Resistance, Crystal Vein, Mishra's Factory, Mishra's Factory W L 3
10. PapriNgomo: Undiscovered Paradise, Undiscovered Paradise, Scythe Leopard, Adventuring Gear W L 3
11. ronco: Swamp, Smallpox, Nether Spirit, Lotus Petal W W 6
12. JackaBo: City of traitors, Simian spirit guide, Simian spirit guide, Thought-knot-seer W L 3
13. H: Tropical Island, Force of Will, Force Spike, Old-Growth Dryads W L 3
14. mistercakes: swamp, culling the weak, shield sphere, phyrexian obliterator W L 3
15. Dan Pyre: Swamp, Cabal Ritual, Lotus Petal, Phyrexian Crusader W L 3
16. kombatkiwi: Peat Bog, Bitterblossom, Nether Spirit, Smallpox W W 6
17. Tylert: Havenwood Battleground, city of traitors, Eureka, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn W W 6
18. Ace/Homebrew: Leyline of the Void, Leyline of Sanctity, Serra's Sanctum, Myth Realized D D 2
19. spartan117: The Tabernacle At Pendrell Vale, Eladamri's Vineyard, Treetop Village, Field Of Ruin W W 6
20. beardstorm: Island, Zealous Guardian, Force Spike, Sea's Claim W W 6
21. phonics: Swamp, Mishra's Factory, Blackmail, The Rack L W 3
22. Sloshthedark: Blinkmoth Nexus, Inkmoth Nexus, City of Traitors, Sphere of Resistance W L 3
23. JosefK: Blackmail, Cabal Therapy, Swamp, The Rack 0 0 0
24. spirit of the wretch: Leyline of Singularity, Karakas, City of Traitors, Hangarback Walker W W 6
25. apple713: Plains, Mishra's Factory, Mana Tithe, Leyline of the Void W W 6
26. Darklingske: Tabernacle of Pendrell Vale, Grove of the Burnwillows, [cards]Punishing Fire, Dwarven Hold W W 6
27. FTW: Leyline of the Void, Scrubland, Cabal Therapy, Student of Warfare W L 3
28. Kap'n Cook: Force of Will, Judge's Familiar, Tropical Island, Greenbelt Rampager W W 6
Results 125

[FTW]

27. FTW: Leyline of the Void, Scrubland, Cabal Therapy, Student of Warfare - 0, 0


Check my post a few back. I think we draw both.

I can't Therapy you because of Leyline. Student will get a lot of damage in but can't kill you before you get Myth to 4/4. Then you just sit there and pass with mana open, so I can't attack as a 3/3. I level up and you EOT add counters. When I become 4/4 double strike, I'm forced to attack into you and force a trade. I have to force a trade before you get to 9/9, otherwise I lose the ability to trade and you can win as a 20/20. Therefore we draw.

Nominations for Bannings:
- Cabal Therapy. It's even better than Thoughtseize because you don't lose life and can flash it back (lol Doomed Traveler, Young Wolf, Sacred Cat, Nether Spirit).
- Blackmail. It's designed for games where you start with 7 cards and draw new cards. It's not supposed to manascrew you.
- The Rack. It's also designed for games where you start with 7 cards and draw new cards. It's OP when it comes online so quickly and you can't draw new cards.

Cabal Therapy, Blackmail and The Rack are broken because of the way their abilities interact with the unique format rules.

I'd like Mental Misstep banned for real this time. It punishes fair 1-drop strategies, pairs too well with FoW lists, and encourages City of Traitors -> Lupine Prototype nonsense.

[H]

13 @H
I think i win on the play, i play discard, you force, you play your creature, i play the rack and i deal damage in your upkeep, so you are dead before you can attack for the last damage.

Ah, yeah, forgot that would be on my upkeep, so that is likely correct.

[FTW]

27 @FTW i think i win on the play. If you play student i still think i win the race as my damage comes first
You ME Level
20 - 20 0
18 - 19 1
15 - 16 2
12 - 13 3
9 - 10 4
6 - 7 5
3 - 4 6
0 - x 7


Hmm..

T1 - You play Rack. I take 0 and play Scrubland, Student.
T2 - You discard something. I take 2 and attack for 1 (Level 1). 18 vs 19
...
Yeah that checks out. Rack kills me on my upkeep the turn before Student could kill you.

3-3

[CptHaddock]

Whoops it completely slipped my mind that mental misstep was a banned card in this format. Sorry about that folks, i'll remember for next round. Would it be too late and also fair to change banned cards to basic lands? Or would that just make things even more complicated?

[Asthereal]

I'll post these here, as Clx33 isn't able to post at this time.
Results from Clx33:

1. Asthereal (TO): Force of Will, Sea's Claim, Slippery Bogle, Island - Agree on your posted Draw 2-2 (2)
2. PirateKing: City of Traitors, The Rack, The Rack, Lupine Prototype - Even if I force a rack, and hold propaganda to stop the prototype, I can't get Griffin down face enough to race the second rack 0-6 (2)
3. Matsu: Rishadan Port, Mishra's factory,Mental Misstep, Mental Misstep - Missteps are irrelevant, but if you every don't port, I get to resolve griffin/propaganda, and you can't get enough attacks in before cove charges up 2-2 draw (4)
4. CptHaddock: Force of Will, Misthollow Griffin, Saprazzan Cove, Mental Misstep - We stare at each other for a while Draw 2-2 (6)
5. Taconaut: Force of Will, Misthollow Griffin, Saprazzan Cove, Confiscate - If we sit there charging coves, you can't play griffin, because then you have to pitch confiscate to force my force, and my griffin will stick, I can't play griffin becasue I lose to confiscate with force backup 2-2 draw (8)
6. Mr. Safety: City of Traitors, Elvish Spirit Guide, Ensnaring Bridge, Scalding Tongs - I force bridge and outrace tongs 6-0 (14)
7. Clx33: Saprazzan Cove, Force of Will, Misthollow Griffin, Propaganda - Me!
8. Fallen_Empire: City of Traitors, Torpor Orb, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Phyrexian Dreadnought - I force torpor orb and then griffin gets there 6-0 (20)
9. tescrin: Sphere of Resistance, Crystal Vein, Mishra's Factory, Mishra's Factory - I can land a propaganda before I die to factory beats 6-0 (26)
10. PapriNgomo: Undiscovered Paradise, Undiscovered Paradise, Scythe Leopard, Adventuring Gear - I force leopard, and beat with griffin 6-0 (32)
11. ronco: Swamp, Smallpox, Nether Spirit, Lotus Petal - I force smallpox and beat with griffin 6-0 (38)
12. JackaBo: City of traitors, Simian spirit guide, Simian spirit guide, Thought-knot-seer - I force TKS and beat with griffin 6-0 (44)
13. H: Tropical Island, Force of Will, Force Spike, Old-Growth Dryads - I force dryads, you force back, I can land a propaganda, but if you play nothing, if I play griffin, you force, then I lose my propagannda too force back, but your dryad coming down the next turn is too late. So you need to dryad earlier and not force my force, meaning you can force my griffin, and we draw. If i don't force drad and take some hits to land propaganda, I can't cast griffin with protection, so again, it's a draw 2-2 (46)
14. mistercakes: swamp, culling the weak, shield sphere, phyrexian obliterator - force obliterator and beat with grifffin 6-0 (52)
15. Dan Pyre: Swamp, Cabal Ritual, Lotus Petal, Phyrexian Crusader - force crusader and beat with griffin 6-0 (58)
16. kombatkiwi: Peat Bog, Bitterblossom, Nether Spirit, Smallpox - Save force for smallpox, so if you lead on bitterblossom, let that resolve, play propaganda, and bitterblossom kills you. If you play nothing, I can play griffin, but then if you smallpox->bitterblossom, I lose, so I can't griffin 2-2 draw I think. (60)
17. Tylert: Havenwood Battleground, city of traitors, Eureka, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn - force eureka and beat with griffin 6-0 (66)
18. Ace/Homebrew: Leyline of the Void, Leyline of Sanctity, Serra's Sanctum, Myth Realized - force myth realized and beat with griffin 6-0 (72)
19. spartan117: The Tabernacle At Pendrell Vale, Eladamri's Vineyard, Treetop Village, Field Of Ruin - force vineyard making field and treetop irrelevant, wait a ton of turns to have the mana on cove to play it then pay tabernacle every turn whille griffin attacks 6-0 (78)
20. beardstorm: Island, Zealous Guardian, Force Spike, Sea's Claim - I force the sea's claim, and outrace guardian 6-0 i thiink (84)
21. phonics: Swamp, Mishra's Factory, Blackmail, The Rack - I don't see a way for me to answer everything 0-6 (84)
22. Sloshthedark: Blinkmoth Nexus, Inkmoth Nexus, City of Traitors, Sphere of Resistance - I can land a grifffin T6 before the inkmoth kills me T7, force the sphere pitch griffin, or just play griffin if sphere unplayed, but I can't attack because you can pay for the propaganda 2-2 draw (86)
23. JosefK: Blackmail, Cabal Therapy, Swamp, The Rack - Can't answer everything - 0-6 (86)
24. spirit of the wretch: Leyline of Singularity, Karakas, City of Traitors, Hangarback Walker - Force hangerback, but can't keep griffin on the table 2-2 draw (88)
25. apple713: Plains, Mishra's Factory, Mana Tithe, Leyline of the Void - factory can't race before I can play a propaganda then griffin 6-0 (94)
26. Darklingske: Tabernacle of Pendrell Vale, Grove of the Burnwillows, Punishing Fire, Dwarven Hold - I'm pretty sure just charging cove to pay for 7 turns of tabernacle for griffin outraces by killing on turn 20 6-0 (100)
27. FTW: Leyline of the Void, Scrubland, Cabal Therapy, Student of Warfare - I can force therapy, and get propaganda in before student kills me, no way to force a draw with second therapy saccing student because grifin already in exile at that point. 6-0 (106)
28. Kap'n Cook: Force of Will, Judge's Familiar, Tropical Island, Greenbelt Rampager - If you rampager, I force, you force, and I can resolve propagandda in time, if you do nothing, I can griffin eventuallly and outrace by forcing your force (pitch my propaganda), if you rampager and don't force back my force, I can't push through griffin, so that's your line. I can let it resolve and then play a defended propaganda, but then I still can't get my griffin to resolve if you just don't force the propaganda 2-2 draw (108)

Total: 108

[Asthereal]

Whoops it completely slipped my mind that mental misstep was a banned card in this format. Sorry about that folks, i'll remember for next round. Would it be too late and also fair to change banned cards to basic lands? Or would that just make things even more complicated?
You're not the only one.
I discussed this and agreed Misstep should be legal (for now), but forgot to mention this in the opening posts.
It's not the only thing that went wrong for round one. I also forgot to ban Therapy and Blackmail but did ban Thoughtseize.
However, I don't expect these oversights will be all that impactful. Misstep doesn't look all that overpowered.

I will sift through the posts from the past 24 hours and see what the consensus seems to be.
We have a few options, in my opinion.
- Ban Misstep for next round.
- Specially mention Misstep is unbanned.
- Create an entire new banning list with all the relevant cards from the original Legacy banned list on it, but Misstep legal.
The last one would be most thorough, so I'm leaning to that now. It's not that hard. Tutors and card draw are irrelevant in 4CB.

I will also look at what cards you would like to have banned for next round.
So far I have seen support for banning Therapy and Blackmail, and a few other cards as well.
If you haven't posted about your preferences for bannings in your results post, please post them separately.



Ah, ok, I figured something went haywire. I so still a loss and a draw?.

Kap'n cant cast Familiar on the play, so if he casts Rampager, the choice is either Asthereal Forces that, or lets it resolve. If he Forces, he has to pitch Claim, because if he pitches Boggle, he can't beat Familiar (Claim won't stop Familiar being cast). If he pitches Claim, he loses to Rampager. Right?

If he lets it resolve, Kap'n gets an energy and passes turn. If Asthereal attempts to Claim, Kap'n can Force that, which means either Asthereal Forces back, losing Boggle, so that game would be a draw. If Kap'n lets that Claim resolve though, he can cast Familar, which would then be Forced pitching Boggle and Kap'n can't cast Rampager, so another draw.

So, it looks like one win for Kap'n and one draw?
1. Asthereal (TO): Force of Will, Sea's Claim, Slippery Bogle, Island
28. Kap'n Cook: Force of Will, Judge's Familiar, Tropical Island, Greenbelt Rampager

Okay, this needs some analysis.

I can't go for the win. If I cast Bogle, I can't stop Rampager anymore:
If I use Claim, he will Force it and I don't have a blue card to pitch to be able to Force back.
If I keep Claim in hand to pitch to Force, he will just Force my Force, pitching Familiar.
Rampager > Bogle, so that's out of the question. So all I can do is go for the draw.

Rampager only becomes a problem the third time he casts it. So before that happens I can cast Claim to try and stop that.
If he casts Familiar, he can't Force anymore because Familiar is his only other blue card.
But he doesn't have to cast Familiar. I see these options:

1. He goes Tropical, cast Rampager (+1 energy counter, Rampager bounces). I go Island, cast Claim on Tropical. He can Force, but he has to pitch Familiar. I Force back pitching Bogle. Claim resolves, and neither of us have a wincon.
2. He goes Tropical, cast Familiar. I Force, pitching Bogle. I then cast Claim on Tropical, and again, neither of us have a wincon.

Both lines draw, and it doesn't matter who's on the play. So I think we score 2-2.

(PS. If Rampager were something else, for instance Old-Growth Dryads, I lose this. -Props to H for that find.)

[Darklingske]

Sorry guys, I don't have the time for the next couple of days to comb through the results and post them here. But as I suspected, my deck is pure nonsense :)

[Asthereal]

OTP - Force Bridge, Bogle races Tongs LOSS, OTD Bogle first, Force Bridge, races Tongs, LOSS (0)
EDIT: Nope. Tongs races Bogle, even on the draw, because I need to use Force, which costs one life.
Note that you have the opportunity to cast Tongs before you cast Bridge. You don't have to cast bridge first.

So I have to counter Tongs and go for two draws.

Also, I have NEWS:
Many of you have already noticed that there are a few Mental Missteps in the decks for round one. Yet Misstep is on the Legacy banned list.
That's my fault. I agreed Misstep should be legal, but failed to notify everyone in the first posts. My apologies.
I have decided to decree all decks posted for round one legal and will take action for round two.

About round two: I will create my deck as soon as possible, and make sure we start submissions for round two this weekend.
More news to follow, but round two can obviously only start after I have decided what to do about Misstep, bannings and so on.

About round one: If you've only just come here and are too lazy to dig through the posts to find all the decks: you will find the decks on page 6.
I will collect all scores posted so far and create a score table after submissions for round two are opened. No rush, the scores won't walk away when ignored.

[H]

I'll post these here, as Clx33 isn't able to post at this time.
Results from Clx33:

13. H: Tropical Island, Force of Will, Force Spike, Old-Growth Dryads - I force dryads, you force back, I can land a propaganda, but if you play nothing, if I play griffin, you force, then I lose my propagannda too force back, but your dryad coming down the next turn is too late. So you need to dryad earlier and not force my force, meaning you can force my griffin, and we draw. If i don't force drad and take some hits to land propaganda, I can't cast griffin with protection, so again, it's a draw 2-2 (46)

I keep forgetting that "do nothing" is always an option. I'll edit my results.

[Mr. Safety]

EDIT: Nope. Tongs races Bogle, even on the draw, because I need to use Force, which costs one life.
Note that you have the opportunity to cast Tongs before you cast Bridge. You don't have to cast bridge first.

So I have to counter Tongs and go for two draws.

Good catch, I wouldn't intuitively play Tongs first against anything using a creature for a win condition. I will correct to 2 draws.

[PirateKing]

I keep forgetting that "do nothing" is always an option. I'll edit my results.

Yeah I went through my games forgetting you could just not put out a Leyline if it didn't aid you, but since The Rack is one billion percent busted, it didn't matter.
No way it should have been legal. On to round 2!

[CptHaddock]

OpponentDeckOtPOtDNotes
AstherealForce of Will,Sea's Claim,Slippery Bogle,Island33
Pirate KingCity of Traitors,The Rack,The Rack,Lupine Prototype00
MatsuRishadan Port,Mishra's factory,Mental Misstep,Mental Misstep11Opp can't kill me before I get to griffin mana, and once that happens they either port or my griffin stares at their factory.
CptHaddockForce of Will,Misthollow Griffin,Saprazzan Cove,Mental Misstep00
TaconautForce of Will,Misthollow Griffin,Saprazzan Cove,Confiscate00
Mr. SafetyCity of Traitors,Elvish Spirit Guide,Ensnaring Bridge,Scalding Tongs33
Clx33Saprazzan Cove,Force of Will,Misthollow Griffin,Propaganda11
Fallen_EmpireCity of Traitors,Torpor Orb,Phyrexian Dreadnought,Phyrexian Dreadnought33
tescrinSphere of Resistance,Crystal Vein,Mishra's Factory,Mishra's Factory00
PapriNgomoUndiscovered Paradise,Undiscovered Paradise,Scythe Leopard,Adventuring Gear33
roncoSwamp,Smallpox,Nether Spirit,Lotus Petal33
JackaBoCity of traitors,Simian spirit guide,Simian spirit guide,Thought-knot-seer33
HTropical Island,Force of Will,Force Spike,Old-Growth Dryads33
mistercakesswamp,culling the weak,shield sphere,phyrexian obliterator33
Dan PyreSwamp,Cabal Ritual,Lotus Petal,Phyrexian Crusader33
kombatkiwiPeat Bog,Bitterblossom,Nether Spirit,Smallpox11e: see note
TylertHavenwood Battleground,city of traitors,Eureka,Emrakul, the Aeons Torn33
Ace/HomebrewLeyline of the Void,Leyline of Sanctity,Serra's Sanctum,Myth Realized33
spartan117The Tabernacle At Pendrell Vale,Eladamri's Vineyard,Treetop Village,Field Of Ruin11
beardstormIsland,Zealous Guardian,Force Spike,Sea's Claim33
phonicsSwamp,Mishra's Factory,Blackmail,The Rack11
SloshthedarkBlinkmoth Nexus,Inkmoth Nexus,City of Traitors,Sphere of Resistance11
JosefKBlackmail,Cabal Therapy,Swamp,The Rack00
spirit of the wretchLeyline of Singularity,Karakas,City of Traitors,Hangarback Walker11
apple713Plains,Mishra's Factory,Mana Tithe,Leyline of the Void11
DarklingskeThe Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale,Grove of the Burnwillows,Punishing Fire,Dwarven Hold00
FTWLeyline of the Void,Scrubland,Cabal Therapy,Student of Warfare33
Kap'n CookForce of Will,Judge's Familiar,Tropical Island,Greenbelt Rampager33


Total: 100

e: thinking about it more, I actually think I just lose to kombatkiwi. I have to force the BB, and then my opponent either gets to tick up till they can play the smallpox.

e2: kombatkiwi is correct, the game would be a draw.

[ronco]

Deleting original post, putting here so it doesn't get lost.

1. Asthereal (TO): I lose OTP and OTD from Force. Can't get spirit hardcasted. +0.
2. PirateKing: I lose both to racks. +0
3. Matsu: Draw both. Do nothing game as opp should just discard a misstep if i SP, which I don't because then factory causes draw. +2
4. CptHaddock: I lose to force. +0
5. Taconaut: I lose to force :( +0
6. Mr. Safety: Draw to Bridge. +2.
7. Clx33: I lose to force. +0
8. Fallen_Empire: Draw. If I play SP with opp's land out, I win. so Opp never plays land, I never play SP. +2
9. tescrin: Lose OTD to sphere, draw OTP to a recurring blocker. +1
10. PapriNgomo: Do nothing draw. opp won't play creature and I can't get mine out. +2.
11. -
12. JackaBo: I won on play, lose on draw. +3.
13. H: Lose to Force. +0.
14. mistercakes: Do nothing draw. +2
15. Dan Pyre: do nothing draw. +2
16. kombatkiwi: Similar decks. Stalemate. +2
17. Tylert: Thanks to KombatKiwi - These are "do nothing" draws. I can't win without casting smallpox, so if opp waits and does nothing, they discard emmy and do it next turn. so i never cast. +2.
18. Ace/Homebrew: I can't win due to leyline, you can't win due to pox. 2 draws, +2.
19. spartan117: I believe I lose both to trample damage. +0
20. beardstorm: OTP I t1 pox, get active spirit going to win. OTD I lose as you can flash in creature then counter my SP/sea's claim my land. +3
21. phonics: I lose to discard. . +0
22. Sloshthedark: lose 2. OTD I lose to sphere. OTP I t1 pox to get spirit out, but then you get all your lands and I die to infect. +0
23. JosefK: I lose to Rack. +0
24. spirit of the wretch: draw (I had to really think on this one). +2
25. apple713: Agree to draw. +2.
26. Darklingske: I think we draw this out. I think your best move is do nothing until I SP then you get pfires going on my recurring spirit. Sicne you recur it every turn but only hit me every other, we both stay at the same life. +2
27. FTW: Lose to leyline/discard! +0
28. Kap'n Cook: Lose to force. +0

31 points. Someone has to get last place, right?

[kombatkiwi]

[Me VS Clx33 as posted by Asthereal]

16. kombatkiwi: Peat Bog, Bitterblossom, Nether Spirit, Smallpox - Save force for smallpox, so if you lead on bitterblossom, let that resolve, play propaganda, and bitterblossom kills you. If you play nothing, I can play griffin, but then if you smallpox->bitterblossom, I lose, so I can't griffin 2-2 draw I think. (60)
I don't think you did the math correctly on BB racing Griffin, it's the same situation as me on the draw vs the turn 1 3/3 Dryads:
You: Griffin
Me: Smallpox, you fow pitching Propaganda (19)
You: Attack (17)
Me: BB
You: Attack me to 14
Me: 1 Fae (13)
You: Attack me to 10
Me: 2 Fae (9), attack (you 18)
You: Attack me to 6
Me: 3 Fae (5), Block
Me: 1 Fae (4)
Me: 2 Fae (3), attack (17)
Me: 3 Fae (2), attack (15)
Me: 4 Fae (1), attack (12)
Me: 5 Fae: Die to my own BB

cptHaddock on me Vs cptHaddock

thinking about it more, I actually think I just lose to kombatkiwi. I have to force the BB, and then my opponent either gets to tick up till they can play the smallpox.
You do have to force the BB (pitching Griffin) but then you can just choose not to do anything. If I play smallpox before you play cove you can just discard misstep and you will get to 4 mana from cove to play Griffin before Netherspirit kills you.

Edited my original post with total points and explanation for all my matchups

[Asthereal]

@kombatkiwi: Well spotted. I also missed the option of sandbagging the Cove.

@CaptHaddock: If I add all your points I come up slightly above your 70. :wink:

[spartan117]

1. Asthereal: LL Force of Will, Sea's Claim, Slippery Bogle, Island

2. PirateKing: LL City of Traitors, The Rack, The Rack, Lupine Prototype

3. Matsu: LL Rishadan Port, Mishra's factory,Mental Misstep, Mental Misstep

4. CptHaddock: LL Force of Will, Misthollow Griffin, Saprazzan Cove, Mental Misstep

5. Taconaut: LL Force of Will, Misthollow Griffin, Saprazzan Cove, Confiscate

6. Mr. Safety: LL City of Traitors, Elvish Spirit Guide, Ensnaring Bridge, Scalding Tongs

7. !!!!!Clx33: LL Saprazzan Cove, Force of Will, Misthollow Griffin, Propaganda He says he ties, but he can just force vineyard pitching griffin, then wait a bunch of turns to get all the needed mana to kill
me through tabernacle since I can’t do anything in the meantime.

8. Fallen_Empire: WL City of Traitors, Torpor Orb, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Phyrexian Dreadnought

9. tescrin: TT Sphere of Resistance, Crystal Vein, Mishra's Factory, Mishra's Factory

10. PapriNgomo: WW Undiscovered Paradise, Undiscovered Paradise, Scythe Leopard, Adventuring Gear Tabernacle never lets him do anything, treetop beats win.

11. ronco: LL Swamp, Smallpox, Nether Spirit, Lotus Petal

12. JackaBo: LL City of traitors, Simian spirit guide, Simian spirit guide, Thought-knot-seer

13. H: LL Tropical Island, Force of Will, Force Spike, Old-Growth Dryads

14. mistercakes: LL swamp, culling the weak, shield sphere, phyrexian obliterator

15. Dan Pyre: LL Swamp, Cabal Ritual, Lotus Petal, Phyrexian Crusader

16. kombatkiwi: WW Peat Bog, Bitterblossom, Nether Spirit, Smallpox

17. !!!!!Tylert: LL Havenwood Battleground, city of traitors, Eureka, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn I don’t think I’m able to kill heavenvood in time, since the earliest is turn 3 and eureka has already resolved.

18. Ace/Homebrew: WW Leyline of the Void, Leyline of Sanctity, Serra's Sanctum, Myth Realized

19. spartan117:

20. beardstorm: TT Island, Zealous Guardian, Force Spike, Sea's Claim The moment he casts guardian I slam tabernacle, he lets it die and saves claim for my treetop every game.

21. phonics: LL Swamp, Mishra's Factory, Blackmail, The Rack

22. Sloshthedark: WW Blinkmoth Nexus, Inkmoth Nexus, City of Traitors, Sphere of Resistance Kill Inkmoth with ruins, race Blinkmoth with Treetop.

23. JosefK: LL Blackmail, Cabal Therapy, Swamp, The Rack

24. spirit of the wretch: TT Leyline of Singularity, Karakas, City of Traitors, Hangarback Walker

25. !!!!!apple713: WW Plains, Mishra's Factory, Mana Tithe, Leyline of the Void He thinks this is a tie, but I think I shpuld be able to always go Treetop, Vineyard paying for tithe thanks to ruins, sac ruins to
kill mishra, treetop beats win.

26. Darklingske: WW The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Grove of the Burnwillows, Punishing Fire, Dwarven Hold

27. FTW: LL Leyline of the Void, Scrubland, Cabal Therapy, Student of Warfare

28. Kap'n Cook: LL Force of Will, Judge's Familiar, Tropical Island, Greenbelt Rampager


Total score: 45

[Tylert]

@spartan117: You are right. I've mistakenly thought that eladamri's vinyard could add mana the turn it was cast. you're one turn short. I win both games.

[apple713]

@spartan you are right. Not sure what I was thinking there. Ive adjusted my score down.

Its possible I’ve made the worst deck or something very close to it. I feel like matches were playing out very differently in my head when i submitted it.

[CptHaddock]

cptHaddock on me Vs cptHaddock

You do have to force the BB (pitching Griffin) but then you can just choose not to do anything. If I play smallpox before you play cove you can just discard misstep and you will get to 4 mana from cove to play Griffin before Netherspirit kills you.

Edited my original post with total points and explanation for all my matchups

If I don't do anything don't you just tick up cove to cast your spirit? And then when I play my land and try to tick up to griffin you smallpox before I even get halfway? If you resolve your smallpox i'm just dead as I have no mana to cast my griffins.



@CaptHaddock: If I add all your points I come up slightly above your 70. :wink:

:tongue: You're right! This is my punishment for trying to use excel before having my morning coffee.

[kombatkiwi]

If I don't do anything don't you just tick up cove to cast your spirit? And then when I play my land and try to tick up to griffin you smallpox before I even get halfway? If you resolve your smallpox i'm just dead as I have no mana to cast my griffins.


Remember I'm not playing the black Saprazzan Cove, I'm playing the black Saprazzan Skerry. It's literally impossible for me to get Netherspirit into play without discarding it to Smallpox

Heres how this matchup plays out
Me: Bog
You: Do nothing
Me: BB, you force pitching Griffin
You: Do nothing
Me: Do nothing

At this point if you play Cove I kill it with Smallpox and then I win, but if you don't play Cove then I can't win because you will discard Misstep to smallpox and then immediately play Cove and start ticking it up, and you will have 4 mana to play Griffin from exile before Nether Spirit deals you 20

[kombatkiwi]

@spartan you are right. Not sure what I was thinking there. Ive adjusted my score down.

Its possible I’ve made the worst deck or something very close to it. I feel like matches were playing out very differently in my head when i submitted it.

The awkward thing about your deck is that you are never in the drivers' seat because you can't both attack and hold up Mana Tithe
I think the Scythe Leopard deck is probably the worst one though lol

[CptHaddock]

Remember I'm not playing the black Saprazzan Cove, I'm playing the black Saprazzan Skerry. It's literally impossible for me to get Netherspirit into play without discarding it to Smallpox

Heres how this matchup plays out
Me: Bog
You: Do nothing
Me: BB, you force pitching Griffin
You: Do nothing
Me: Do nothing

At this point if you play Cove I kill it with Smallpox and then I win, but if you don't play Cove then I can't win because you will discard Misstep to smallpox and then immediately play Cove and start ticking it up, and you will have 4 mana to play Griffin from exile before Nether Spirit deals you 20

Ah! You are absolutely correct, it would be a draw.

[apple713]

The awkward thing about your deck is that you are never in the drivers' seat because you can't both attack and hold up Mana Tithe
I think the Scythe Leopard deck is probably the worst one though lol

Yeah that was a fun one to figure out.

Well I'm prepared for the next round. I've definitely given it more thought.

[FTW]

Its possible I’ve made the worst deck or something very close to it. I feel like matches were playing out very differently in my head when i submitted it.

I think it's just that Leyline of the Void was really bad in this field. You're essentially playing a 3 card deck. Both our decks would have been significantly better with any random threat or answer in place of Leyline.

[H]

Yeah that was a fun one to figure out.

Well I'm prepared for the next round. I've definitely given it more thought.

Well, we kind of need to deduce all the results, then decide on the 'new' banned list before the next round.

Here is the current "standings" as I have seen them:
PirateKing (154)
JosefK (124)
Clx33 (108)
CptHaddock (100)
spirit of the wretch (94)
H (91)
Asthereal (88)
FTW (83)
JackaBo (80)
tescrin (76)
Mr. Safety (68)
kombatkiwi (61)
Tylert (51)
spartan117 (45)
ronco (31)
Ace/Homebrew (28)
apple713 (19)

[PirateKing]

I think it's just that Leyline of the Void was really bad in this field. You're essentially playing a 3 card deck. Both our decks would have been significantly better with any random threat or answer in place of Leyline.

You say that and then next round you'll lose to triple LED into Increasing Devotion
I was expecting to just lose to more Unburial Rites decks, but I guess you were prepared as well

[tescrin]

You say that and then next round you'll lose to triple LED into Increasing Devotion
I was expecting to just lose to more Unburial Rites decks, but I guess you were prepared as well

Well. You were prepared in that you could race most threats that Unburial could make. I expected more chalice decks so figured Rack wouldn't be a thing, then *NO ONE* brought a chalice haha. Go figure. (up to 11 per turn; which is enough to outrace Griselbrand for instance)

I was "prepared" in that I knew RSphere would win OTP; and if I go 3-3 that seems good enough for a bad MU. If Unburial is getting cheesed by Chalice, RSphere, Leyline, Karakas, random removal, Force of Will, etc; they're basically hated out defacto.

Not a good reason to then *not* run Chalice, RSphere, Karakas, or similar if you have the synergies; since they're free wins against a whole variety of the field.

_____________
Ban suggestions are the standard ones mentioned so far. BUT if you ban The Rack you also need to ban Shrieking Affliction or we'll just see that win next time. I'm personally building to dodge discard anyway, but if it's a problem with Rack removed then I'm fine either way.

I'm personally fine with Griffon. The storage lands were mentioned but I think people didn't expect to see 3-4 Force-Griffon Storage-land decks. There's so many cards that hate storage lands (even if it's just because you can race them) that I think we'll see more focus on things like that. It originally seemed that no one would use storage lands and we had at least 4 that did.

Nothing else seems broken yet, or even questioned to be broken.

Were there "pillars" to the format; I imagine that Storage Force of Will is the "U control" to the UG aggro that we saw a couple of; similar to how we see colorless control and colorless aggro.

[PirateKing]

Oh I thought Chalice was banned when I made this :cry:
I figured Grave Titan to be the target of choice since it has a faster clock and the card draw from Giz is irrelevant
Or good ol' genuine Akroma.

But yeah I couldn't come up with anything better than Sol land into double Rack, did a quick search for what I could do with the other two mana for the last card, lo and behold, a 5/5 with a... downside?

But yeah out with The Rack or anything that punishes players for no cards in hand

[CptHaddock]

Rack and rack type effects should absolutely be on the list.

Rack (and other rack effects): Fit into every archetype, the only way to play around it is to keep your opening 4 but if your opponent has another win condition in their deck like PirateKing outside of some really unique decks I don't think you have very many outs to that.

Blackmail: Basically the best discard spell in the format, it has 0 downsides outside of the 1 black mana it uses.

Also out of curiosity isn't therapy just better than thoughtseize/inqusition? If those 2 cards are banned should therapy be as well?

[tescrin]

Also out of curiosity isn't therapy just better than thoughtseize/inqusition? If those 2 cards are banned should therapy be as well?

It's been mentioned that therapy was an oversight. I think there are probably a couple others (inquisition may have been legal this time?) that will also get the axe. Basically, targeted single-mana discard that is good.

That said, I could go either way on it

[Wrath of Pie]

As a CB veteran, it is my duty to share my wisdom.


Asthereal's results for S01R01:
I advocate to ban these cards:
- Cabal Therapy (because Thoughtseize is banned, and this card is better)
- Blackmail (same reason - note this card can also take lands!)
Honestly I just forgot about these. These should obviously not be legal if Seize is banned.
Keeping Duress is probably fine, as it helps stop obnoxious things, but I think these are too much.

I think the better solution is to have a vanishing banned list in addition to the base banned list (cards from winner are banned, and you can add in bans for card frequency if you want, possibly make duals/basic lands/storage lands/sac lands/karoos immune from being banned), although those are indeed oversights if you want to set the bar at Inquisition of Kozilek.

Despise and Divest are actually surprisingly potent discard spells as well, but should be fine.


I have my doubts about these cards:
- Lion's Eye Diamond (allows for insane combos)
- Eureka (stoppable, but obnoxious, especially with City of Traitors and 2x Chancellor of the Tangle)
- Misthollow Griffin or Force of Will (this combo might be too much to allow)
- The Rack (I forgot about this card. It's pretty insane if you think about it.)

Let us know what you want to do. Shall we ban cards for next round already? Or shall we wait? I'm cool with either.

The Rack is definitely the best 1-drop in CB to the point that playing other 1-drops are useless because they are too slow of clocks.

Eureka is probably fine, as is Force of Will/Misthollow Griffin because the critical weakness is to stare it down and dare it to cast Griffin. Of course double storage land is a counter to that, but then you just play proactive threats to overwhelm the counterspell.

LED is not actually that great in my experience, but I have mostly played 3CB so my viewpoint might be tainted.

Cards you missed:

Mental Misstep is a really dumb card for the same reasons it was banned in Legacy, although being around the presence of other format-warping cards probably makes it more reasonable.

Shrieking Affliction is the other relevant Rack effect, I actually rank it below some creatures in my 1-drop tiering order so it should be fine.

If you want a fairer format, Lotus Petal probably has to go with LED.

Tabernacle makes creatures bad but has a deckbuilding cost.

Field of Ruin is actually not that much worse than Wasteland, but only being functional on turn 2 should make it less problematic than it could be.

Reanimate should actually be fine if you make the discard weak enough.

For future rounds I would suggest setting up a GoogleDoc spreadsheet to make the results easier to follow, because your round 1 was larger than anything I have ever been a part of.

[tescrin]

The Rack is definitely the best 1-drop in CB to the point that playing other 1-drops are useless because they are too slow of clocks.

Shrieking Affliction is the other relevant Rack effect, I actually rank it below some creatures in my 1-drop tiering order so it should be fine.

Do you mind explaining? I get that affliction only works if they're one card or less; but it seems that you can get an opponent there with only meagre effort.

Geier Reach Sanitarium
Swamp
Mishra's Factory
Shrieking Affliction

for example drains their hand if they don't play and it hits for 5 if they do.
I'd point out that there are probably better decks at doing this as well.

Or is it because you can't colorless?

[Wrath of Pie]

Do you mind explaining? I get that affliction only works if they're one card or less; but it seems that you can get an opponent there with only meagre effort.

Geier Reach Sanitarium
Swamp
Mishra's Factory
Shrieking Affliction

for example drains their hand if they don't play and it hits for 5 if they do.
I'd point out that there are probably better decks at doing this as well.

Or is it because you can't colorless?

Affliction's major issue is that it is a build around requiring other cards to go with it, while the Rack itself is far more proactive and can work with literally anything else that is proactive.

In most cases, something like Chronomaton is a better 1-drop because of the vertical growth potential.

Speaking of which, if Trinisphere is banned, then Sphere of Resistance probably should be as well.

[tescrin]

Affliction's major issue is that it is a build around requiring other cards to go with it, while the Rack itself is far more proactive and can work with literally anything else that is proactive.

In most cases, something like Chronomaton is a better 1-drop because of the vertical growth potential.

Speaking of which, if Trinisphere is banned, then Sphere of Resistance probably should be as well.

Why? Me and the other guy who ran it were in the middle-of-the-road and several decks either bypass it directly (all storage counter decks, some City of Traitors decks, manland decks); most of the decks I've designed since our results released easily dodge Sphere. Sphere is like the colorless force of will (you have to dedicate a card to casting it; in my case Vein; but City and Tomb are options) and it helps to hose the worst offenders of the format while keeping them legal (unburial rights, eureka, other greedy 4-mana plays, etc)

Just like people played around chalice, you can easily play around sphere. If it warrants a ban, it certainly hasn't proven that yet (which is actually why I don't mind the discard either. Those decks earned their points mostly on the back of The Rack being a better threat than most other threats.)

[Wrath of Pie]

Why? Me and the other guy who ran it were in the middle-of-the-road and several decks either bypass it directly (all storage counter decks, some City of Traitors decks, manland decks); most of the decks I've designed since our results released easily dodge Sphere. Sphere is like the colorless force of will (you have to dedicate a card to casting it; in my case Vein; but City and Tomb are options) and it helps to hose the worst offenders of the format while keeping them legal (unburial rights, eureka, other greedy 4-mana plays, etc)

Just like people played around chalice, you can easily play around sphere. If it warrants a ban, it certainly hasn't proven that yet (which is actually why I don't mind the discard either. Those decks earned their points mostly on the back of The Rack being a better threat than most other threats.)

I think the relative failure of the Sphere hands has to do with playing the resilient slow clocks of Factory/Inkmoth. When I play Sphere of Resistance, I want to pair it with a strong proactive threat like Chronomaton because I want the wins when Sphere is minimally effective, and the vertical growth potential of Chronomaton is the best way to do that. (Given that this is 4CB, two Chronomatons.)

[FTW]

I support the following bans:
The Rack -- (reasons already said by others, too powerful with these format rules)
Cabal Therapy -- (miles better than Thoughtseize: can hit multiples, can be flashed back, doesn't cost life. Should have been banned already)
Blackmail -- (Thoughtseize that can take lands)
Shrieking Affliction -- (it would encourage people to just play Rack decks again, swapping a card, but maybe this could be unbanned later)


I think Eureka is fine. Like Unburial Rites, it's an all-in combo that requires a very specific deck design and affords no protection slots. It beats random aggro but loses to disruption.

I'd unban Show and Tell for the same reason. The combo basically takes all 4 cards. It's more all-in combo like Unburial Rites (which would have been wrecked in our meta).

I think Force of Will+Misthollow Griffin+battery land is fine too. It keeps all-in combo in check, which we need with targeted discard banned. It's only oppressive against all-in decks or other control decks with 1 win condition, but it presents a very slow clock and struggles against fair aggro decks.

However, then Mental Misstep should be banned. It makes it too easy for the blue control deck to also police 1 drop aggro. FoW decks should be weak to 1 drop decks for the format to be balanced. If they can Misstep one threat, Force the next and then beat the last one with Griffin, then blue is OP and one of the cards needs to be banned. It makes sense to ban Misstep before Force. Force has a major design cost to playing it, either 2-for-1 or the slow Griffin deck, which makes it balanced. Misstep can be fit into any deck with no cost, like The Rack.

I think LED is fine. It's a key piece of all-in combo (Increasing Devotion, Unburial Rites), but it's also not hard to hate out with disruptive decks.

The format is more interesting if we have a Rock-Paper-Scissors of
All-in-combo > 1 drop aggro > control > combo

[Asthereal]

Shrieking Affliction -- (it would encourage people to just play Rack decks again, swapping a card, but maybe this could be unbanned later)
Actually, this card is a lot less problematic than The Rack.
The Rack works from three cards on, so if you combine it with another threat, you immediately invalidate the option of not doing anything and going for the draw.
Against Shrieking Affliction plus threat, you can spend two cards (land plus answer) to eliminate said threat and still be out of Affliction range.
Also, it's black, which forces us to use black as a deck color. The Rack, on the other hand, can be added to nearly any deck.

By the way: I disagree with your suggestion to validate more turn one combo and killing Misstep.
I feel it would limit the meta to only a few archetypes: turn 1 combo, FoW deck and something that can beat FoW but has trouble against combo.
That feels wrong.

I think we will have more fun if we ban FoW and all turn one combo.
We then still have turn two combo, but it's easily stopped by many things, allowing us to start fighting other battles I don't yet see coming.



As a CB veteran, it is my duty to share my wisdom.

I think the better solution is to have a vanishing banned list in addition to the base banned list (cards from winner are banned, and you can add in bans for card frequency if you want, possibly make duals/basic lands/storage lands/sac lands/karoos immune from being banned), although those are indeed oversights if you want to set the bar at Inquisition of Kozilek.)
So you're suggesting a combination between a fixed banning list and the "bannathon" I suggested on page one?
That's actually not the worst idea. It forces us to keep the meta fresh.
Say: we ban all cards in the decks that gain points for the season, except for lands that can only produce mana.

How does the rest feel about this idea?

[mistercakes]

if a card like shrieking affliction starts to see a ton of play, i would expect a lot more usage of undiscovered paradise.

[Mr. Safety]

I agree with discard and rack-effect ban ideas, I think they make sense. I still think land destruction in its different forms needs to be closely monitored. Sea's Claim is an interesting disruption that supports Force of Will and disrupts, likely becoming a staple. It opens up Evil Presence a little bit (doesn't pitch to Force) but Smallpox is likely just a better option. I think the evolving nature of this discussion will ensure it maintains interest. I'm just as excited for r2 as I was for r1, and that's a great sign of a fun game.

[FTW]

I like the idea of a rotating banlist to keep the meta fresh. This time around, Rack decks and FoW decks clearly won, so it would make sense to ban those (or ban Griffin and leave FoW with a drawback).

[tescrin]

I'd prefer only banning the things that need it at the moment. We've had one round. The meta isn't stale. We haven't gotten to do a second round where people know a bit better about what to expect and bring different ways to improve or wreck that meta.

[apple713]

Few things

is lotus bloom legal?

also, when are round two submissions due?

Finally, can we post the current round decklists or a link to them in the OP? it's going to be hell to find them as the thread grows.

[H]

is lotus bloom legal?

also, when are round two submissions due?

It's got a pretty serious downside, I don't see why it should be banned. At least, until proven degenerate.

[Asthereal]

when are round two submissions due?
I will look at what everyone would want for bannings and create my own deck soon.
I expect to open submissions for round 2 tomorrow morning (my time) latest.

So far it looks like:
- Mental Misstep will now officially be unbanned, plus a few irrelevant things.
- Blackmail, Cabal Therapy and The Rack get banned.
- All these bannings will be included in one large list.

More plans are in the works, but I don't expect to incorporate them before round 3.

[apple713]

It's got a pretty serious downside, I don't see why it should be banned. At least, until proven degenerate.

I agree but I was just checking. It opens up ALOT of options for all in decks. Up to 9 mana. So where Eureka might have been a problem (i dont think it is) at 4 mana there are bigger opportunities here at 9 mana for an extra 1 turn delay. Just throwing it out there.

[H]

I will look at what everyone would want for bannings and create my own deck soon.
I expect to open submissions for round 2 tomorrow morning (my time) latest.

So far it looks like:
- Mental Misstep will now officially be unbanned, plus a few irrelevant things.
- Blackmail, Cabal Therapy and The Rack get banned.
- All these bannings will be included in one large list.

More plans are in the works, but I don't expect to incorporate them before round 3.

I really don't think Misstep is good for the format. I agree with the rest.

Are we still working off the Legacy banned list?

[Asthereal]

I really don't think Misstep is good for the format. I agree with the rest.
Maybe not, but it definitely didn't break this round.

Are we still working off the Legacy banned list?
No, it's too confusing. In the first few pages there was discussion that Misstep would be good for the format, keeping dangerous things in check. I agreed and wanted to have it unbanned, but forgot to mention it separately, creating more confusion than was necessary. So I'm creating a completely new banning list with all relevant cards from the original Legacy banning list, plus the cards that seem to be breaking 4CB. I expect to post this list today or tomorrow morning latest. After that I will PM myself my own deck for round 2 and announce round 2 officially.

We might proceed to progressively ban the cards that gain season points for each round (was suggested a few posts earlier, and seems like a very good idea), but I won't do that just yet. We haven't had time to discuss that idea enough yet for me to get an idea how much support there is for it, and I feel like I should get round 2 out asap, which is taking up enough time as it is.

[PirateKing]

I agree that Misstep is wrong for this, keep it off

[Wrath of Pie]

I agree but I was just checking. It opens up ALOT of options for all in decks. Up to 9 mana. So where Eureka might have been a problem (i dont think it is) at 4 mana there are bigger opportunities here at 9 mana for an extra 1 turn delay. Just throwing it out there.

Lotus Bloom has suspend 3, so it is actually turn 4 when the mana is useful, which should not be a problem at all.


So you're suggesting a combination between a fixed banning list and the "bannathon" I suggested on page one?
That's actually not the worst idea. It forces us to keep the meta fresh.
Say: we ban all cards in the decks that gain points for the season, except for lands that can only produce mana.

How does the rest feel about this idea?

Be careful with the definition of lands that only produce mana if you go this route, because that means half the storage lands would be hit, and they serve an important purpose.

[Asthereal]

I agree that Misstep is wrong for this, keep it off
Misstep is incredibly narrow. Against half the decks it actually doesn't do anything at all.
I do feel, however, that it might not be safe to keep it legal next to Force of Will.
Force gives a dead Misstep a function (pitch fodder), and that might make it a bit too much.

For round 1, Misstep proved to not be a serious issue. It was solid, and hosed my deck rather well, but it wasn't dominating.
Let's see what round 2 does, and after that we can give it the axe if we like.
Actually, if we decide to go for the progressive banning idea, it'll probably get the axe soon anyway.



Be careful with the definition of lands that only produce mana if you go this route, because that means half the storage lands would be hit, and they serve an important purpose.
Thanks. I'll keep it in mind. Storage lands are indeed a resource we don't want to lose.

[H]

Well, my point on the Legacy Banned list is that if we aren't starting with that, you need to Ban most of the Vintage Restricted list for obvious reasons.

[Wrath of Pie]

Misstep is incredibly narrow. Against half the decks it actually doesn't do anything at all.
I do feel, however, that it might not be safe to keep it legal next to Force of Will.
Force gives a dead Misstep a function (pitch fodder), and that might make it a bit too much.

For round 1, Misstep proved to not be a serious issue. It was solid, and hosed my deck rather well, but it wasn't dominating.
Let's see what round 2 does, and after that we can give it the axe if we like.
Actually, if we decide to go for the progressive banning idea, it'll probably get the axe soon anyway.

Cavern of Souls and Leyline of Lifeforce are technically counterplay for Mental Misstep, and Cavern itself is quite playable anyways.

[apple713]

@asthreal

Could you maybe update the banned list post with cards that are being considered for banning or are in fact being banned for round 2? That way we can at least keep track of them because we now have like 5 pages of discussion on it and that will only grow.

Also, hope you saw my post about keeping round decklists in op or at least a link to where you post them.

As for misstep, it has to be banned here for the same reason it was banned in legacy. It will warp the format, probably even more so here because this format is arguably more heavily reliant on 1cmc cards than legacy. One round of 28 decks is a really poor representation of the format. Hell, there was 0 removal, 0 chalice of the voids, and 0 lion’s eye diamonds, all cards that I expect to be played in this format.

Thanks

[Asthereal]

SEASON 1, ROUND 2 of Legacy FOUR CARD BLIND has started!

I have PM'ed myself my deck for the round.
So... you can all start PM'ing me your submission for the second round.

DEADLINE: Wednesday the 27th of February, at 6:00AM Central European Time. (That's my time. Just send me the deck Tuesday evening latest, you'll be fine).

PLEASE NOTE:
- The way you send your deck to me matters. Please send it in the way described below, so it doesn't cost me an hour of editing before I can post all the decks.
Please send your deck as follows: Loam Lion, Loam Lion, Pithing Needle, Cavern of Souls (so not above eachother), with your Username and 4CB S01R02 in the topic.
- The updated banned list (you'll find it in the second post). I have created a combined banned list with all relevant cards from the Legacy list, plus a number of cards that break the format.
Most important changes: Mental Misstep is unbanned (it already was, but I forgot to mention it in the second post). Banned are The Rack, Cabal Therapy and Blackmail.
Yes, the list is open for discussion. Misstep is on the watch list. So are LED, Eureka, Force of Will and Misthollow Griffin.

After the deadline has passed, I will post all decks on the forum here, and you can start puzzling out your scores.

If you have any questions, please read the first two posts of this thread first. If you can't find the answer there, drop a message here. We'll answer a.s.a.p.

Happy deck designing everybody!

ABOUT ROUND ONE:
Not everybody has posted their scores yet. Please do so this weekend, so I can post scores and update standings before the deadline for round 2.

[kombatkiwi]

I can't PM you, you need to clear out your inbox

[mistercakes]

Opponent Deck OtP OtD Notes
Asthereal Force of Will,Sea's Claim,Slippery Bogle,Island 0 0
Pirate King City of Traitors,The Rack,The Rack,Lupine Prototype 0 0
Matsu Rishadan Port,Mishra's factory,Mental Misstep,Mental Misstep 0 0
CptHaddock Force of Will,Misthollow Griffin,Saprazzan Cove,Mental Misstep 0 0
Taconaut Force of Will,Misthollow Griffin,Saprazzan Cove,Confiscate 0 0
Mr. Safety City of Traitors,Elvish Spirit Guide,Ensnaring Bridge,Scalding Tongs 0 0
Clx33 Saprazzan Cove,Force of Will,Misthollow Griffin,Propaganda 0 0
Fallen_Empire City of Traitors,Torpor Orb,Phyrexian Dreadnought,Phyrexian Dreadnought 1 1
tescrin Sphere of Resistance,Crystal Vein,Mishra's Factory,Mishra's Factory 3 0
PapriNgomo Undiscovered Paradise,Undiscovered Paradise,Scythe Leopard,Adventuring Gear 3 3
ronco Swamp,Smallpox,Nether Spirit,Lotus Petal 0 0
JackaBo City of traitors,Simian spirit guide,Simian spirit guide,Thought-knot-seer 3 0
H Tropical Island,Force of Will,Force Spike,Old-Growth Dryads 0 0
mistercakes swamp,culling the weak,shield sphere,phyrexian obliterator NA NA
Dan Pyre Swamp,Cabal Ritual,Lotus Petal,Phyrexian Crusader 3 3
kombatkiwi Peat Bog,Bitterblossom,Nether Spirit,Smallpox 0 0
Tylert Havenwood Battleground,city of traitors,Eureka,Emrakul, the Aeons Torn 0 0
Ace/Homebrew Leyline of the Void,Leyline of Sanctity,Serra's Sanctum,Myth Realized 3 3
spartan117 The Tabernacle At Pendrell Vale,Eladamri's Vineyard,Treetop Village,Field Of Ruin 3 3
beardstorm Island,Zealous Guardian,Force Spike,Sea's Claim 0 0
phonics Swamp,Mishra's Factory,Blackmail,The Rack 3 0
Sloshthedark Blinkmoth Nexus,Inkmoth Nexus,City of Traitors,Sphere of Resistance 3 0
JosefK Blackmail,Cabal Therapy,Swamp,The Rack 3 0
spirit of the wretch Leyline of Singularity,Karakas,City of Traitors,Hangarback Walker 0 0
apple713 Plains,Mishra's Factory,Mana Tithe,Leyline of the Void 3 0
Darklingske The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale,Grove of the Burnwillows,Punishing Fire,Dwarven Hold 3 3
FTW Leyline of the Void,Scrubland,Cabal Therapy,Student of Warfare 3 0
Kap'n Cook Force of Will,Judge's Familiar,Tropical Island,Greenbelt Rampager 0 0


otp:37
odt:16
total:53

i think it's correct, feel free to correct me if i'm wrong.

[apple713]

mistercakes swamp,culling the weak,shield sphere,phyrexian obliterator

not sure how relevant it would have been but phyrexian walker seems like a better choice for your deck.

[mistercakes]

not sure how relevant it would have been but phyrexian walker seems like a better choice for your deck.

i guess against your deck it would give me 1 point instead 0 on the draw. there might be a few others, but pretty small margins. most of my losses are due to FoW and discard. i lose to smallpox in a few, emrakul in another and pirate king races me as he pointed out.

[apple713]

i guess against your deck it would give me 1 point instead 0 on the draw. there might be a few others, but pretty small margins. most of my losses are due to FoW and discard. i lose to smallpox in a few, emrakul in another and pirate king races me as he pointed out.

You would force a draw with smallpox if you played walker instead because it could always block nether spirit. And you’d wait to play it until they pox’d. So no one would play anything.

But yea its very low impact, forcing a handful of draws instead of losses.

[Wrath of Pie]

tescrin Sphere of Resistance,Crystal Vein,Mishra's Factory,Mishra's Factory 3 0

You draw on the play here, double Factory activations plus a pump trades with Phyrexian Obliterator before you can kill on turn 5.

[tescrin]

You draw on the play here, double Factory activations plus a pump trades with Phyrexian Obliterator before you can kill on turn 5.

oh interesting! I missed this one too. I wonder if I've missed any others
(Note: wrath means that I sac Vein and turn on both factories, each blocking and pumping themselves, which is to say two 3/3s blocking.)

[Mr. Safety]

SEASON 1, ROUND 2 of Legacy FOUR CARD BLIND has started!

I have PM'ed myself my deck for the round.
So... you can all start PM'ing me your submission for the second round.

DEADLINE: Wednesday the 27th of February, at 6:00AM Central European Time. (That's my time. Just send me the deck Tuesday evening latest, you'll be fine).

PLEASE NOTE:
- The way you send your deck to me matters. Please send it in the way described below, so it doesn't cost me an hour of editing before I can post all the decks.
Please send your deck as follows: Loam Lion, Loam Lion, Pithing Needle, Cavern of Souls (so not above eachother), with your Username and 4CB S01R02 in the topic.
- The updated banned list (you'll find it in the second post). I have created a combined banned list with all relevant cards from the Legacy list, plus a number of cards that break the format.
Most important changes: Mental Misstep is unbanned (it already was, but I forgot to mention it in the second post). Banned are The Rack, Cabal Therapy and Blackmail.
Yes, the list is open for discussion. Misstep is on the watch list. So are LED, Eureka, Force of Will and Misthollow Griffin.

After the deadline has passed, I will post all decks on the forum here, and you can start puzzling out your scores.

If you have any questions, please read the first two posts of this thread first. If you can't find the answer there, drop a message here. We'll answer a.s.a.p.

Happy deck designing everybody!

ABOUT ROUND ONE:
Not everybody has posted their scores yet. Please do so this weekend, so I can post scores and update standings before the deadline for round 2.

You need to clean space for new messages. Getting an error message.

[Wrath of Pie]

oh interesting! I missed this one too. I wonder if I've missed any others
(Note: wrath means that I sac Vein and turn on both factories, each blocking and pumping themselves, which is to say two 3/3s blocking.)
Everything looks good. I misread 7 for a moment and thought you had a winning line, but Propaganda does indeed lock you out.

[Dan Pyre]

I am so bad... sorry for lateness!

Deck: Swamp, Cabal Ritual, Lotus Petal, Phyrexian Crusader

1. Asthereal: My Crusader gets Forced both games, die to Bogles 0-6 (0)
2. PirateKing: Can't race 2x Rack and a 5/5 0-6 (0)
3. Matsu: None of my cards can be Missteped, I race Factory and the block trick doesn't work against Infect + First Strike. Port doesn't stop on the draw since I turn 1 Crusader. 6-0 (6)
4. CptHaddock: Crusader gets Forced 0-6 (6)
5. Taconaut: Same as above 0-6 (6)
6. Mr. Safety: Crusader can't pay the bridge toll. 0-6 (6)
7. Clx33: Force time! 0-6 (6)
8. Fallen_Empire: 24 damage per turn beats 2 infect per turn. 0-6 (6)
9. tescrin: On the play, I can always force a draw because Factories cannot attack with only 1 pump profitably into Crusader. Tescrin doesn't have to crack Vein when they are on the draw, so I cannot attack as they can activate, block, double pump and then kill me with the other factory. On the draw I lose to Sphere. 1-3 (7)
10. PapriNgomo: On the play I can race Leopard. On the draw, I can block Leopard's attack on turn 2 (both lands played to equip gear so it isn't a 4/4 this attack), meaning that I win the race by 1 turn - Leopard cannot kill Crusader in combat while blocking. 6-0 (13)
11. ronco: Smallpox wrecks me both games - even casting it if I do nothing takes away one of my resources to play a 3 mana spell. Nether beats. 0-6 (13)
12. JackaBo: I can't win even on the play as I cannot race unless I get an attack in first. I can't draw since my block doesn't shrink TKS enough. On the draw I get TKS'd. 0-6 (13)
13. H: Force! 0-6 (13)
14. mistercakes: Shit, this is the better strat. Obliterator races with ease both games. 0-6 (13)
15. Dan Pyre: Me!
16. kombatkiwi: Smallpox/Nether wins no matter when cast. 0-6 (13)
17. Tylert: I cannot infect Emrakul. 0-6 (13)
18. Ace/Homebrew: Crusader has pro-white! Myth can't pump fast enough to race. 6-0 (19)
19. spartan117: I can pay for Tabernacle with my Swamp, and Crusader shrinks Village enough to attack or block profitably. 6-0 (25)
20. beardstorm: On the play, I race Guardian with ease. On the draw, I get Spiked! 3-3 (28)
21. phonics: Factory + Rack races Crusader on the play, leaving Crusader to block means I lose to Race. I cannot race on the Draw. 0-6 (28)
22. Sloshthedark: On the play I win as even double block pump cannot beat first strike into infect. On the draw turn 1 Sphere turns my deck off. 3-3 (31)
23. JosefK: On the play, race Rack. On the draw, lose to discard. 3-3 (34)
24. spirit of the wretch: Crusader always gets bounced 0-6 (34)
25. apple713: Factory can't block on the play, on the draw I get Mana Tithed 3-3 (37)
26. Darklingske: I can pay for Tabernacle both games, Crusader is pro red, and I race the P Fire. 6-0 (43)
27. FTW: On the play I can race and can't be blocked, on the draw I get hand hated 3-3 (46)
28. Kap'n Cook: Forced! 0-6 (49)

Final score: 46! Not bad for all in strats.

Scouring through the thread to make sure some results are correct:

Apple713: Our match is wrong in your results. Factory can't block Crusader and live when on the draw - First Strike plus infect beats a 3/3. However on the draw your Tithe can hit any of my spells and stop me. Our score should be 3-3, yes?
Ronco: Casting Smallpox cuts me off playing Crusader entirely. Nether spirit beats. 6-0 your favor. Collect your points :P

Looking forward to next round!

[Sloshthedark]

22. Sloshthedark: Blinkmoth Nexus, Inkmoth Nexus, City of Traitors, Sphere of Resistance PTS OTP/OTD

1. Asthereal (TO): Force of Will, Sea's Claim, Slippery Bogle, Island 3-3
2. PirateKing: City of Traitors, The Rack, The Rack, Lupine Prototype 0-0
3. Matsu: Rishadan Port, Mishra's factory,Mental Misstep, Mental Misstep 3-3
4. CptHaddock: Force of Will, Misthollow Griffin, Saprazzan Cove, Mental Misstep 1-1
5. Taconaut: Force of Will, Misthollow Griffin, Saprazzan Cove, Confiscate 0-0
6. Mr. Safety: City of Traitors, Elvish Spirit Guide, Ensnaring Bridge, Scalding Tongs 3-1
7. Clx33: Saprazzan Cove, Force of Will, Misthollow Griffin, Propaganda 1-1
8. Fallen_Empire: City of Traitors, Torpor Orb, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Phyrexian Dreadnought 3-0
9. tescrin: Sphere of Resistance, Crystal Vein, Mishra's Factory, Mishra's Factory 3-3
10. PapriNgomo: Undiscovered Paradise, Undiscovered Paradise, Scythe Leopard, Adventuring Gear 3-3
11. ronco: Swamp, Smallpox, Nether Spirit, Lotus Petal 3-3
12. JackaBo: City of traitors, Simian spirit guide, Simian spirit guide, Thought-knot-seer 3-0
13. H: Tropical Island, Force of Will, Force Spike, Old-Growth Dryads 3-3
14. mistercakes: swamp, culling the weak, shield sphere, phyrexian obliterator 3-0
15. Dan Pyre: Swamp, Cabal Ritual, Lotus Petal, Phyrexian Crusader 3-0
16. kombatkiwi: Peat Bog, Bitterblossom, Nether Spirit, Smallpox 3-3
17. Tylert: Havenwood Battleground, city of traitors, Eureka, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn 3-3
18. Ace/Homebrew: Leyline of the Void, Leyline of Sanctity, Serra's Sanctum, Myth Realized 3-3
19. spartan117: The Tabernacle At Pendrell Vale, Eladamri's Vineyard, Treetop Village, Field Of Ruin 0-0
20. beardstorm: Island, Zealous Guardian, Force Spike, Sea's Claim 3-3
21. phonics: Swamp, Mishra's Factory, Blackmail, The Rack 0-0
----
23. JosefK: Blackmail, Cabal Therapy, Swamp, The Rack 3-0
24. spirit of the wretch: Leyline of Singularity, Karakas, City of Traitors, Hangarback Walker 3-3
25. apple713: Plains, Mishra's Factory, Mana Tithe, Leyline of the Void 3-3
26. Darklingske: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Grove of the Burnwillows, Punishing Fire, Dwarven Hold 0-0
27. FTW: Leyline of the Void, Scrubland, Cabal Therapy, Student of Warfare 3-3
28. Kap'n Cook: Force of Will, Judge's Familiar, Tropical Island, Greenbelt Rampager 3-3

OTP 62
OTD 45
=107



22. Sloshthedark: Leyline + Karakas > Nexi 6-0 (76)
k - Nexus is still a land so I think I race you

I hope I did not make any mistakes, I'm terrible at combat math, otherwise - I really like decks 2&24&26, totally missed the Rack card
for suggestions - what about some publicly shared spreadsheet for results? it's quite hard to navigate and crosscheck all the posts

[apple713]

@Sloth

8. Fallen_Empire: I'm pretty sure you lose OTD again fallen. He plays torpor orb t1 and then can pay for dreadnaughts 1 each turn. 12/12 races 1/1.

@Dan

Agree ... all my 19 points are dwindling :P

[spirit of the wretch]

- Nexus is still a land so I think I race you

How so? With Leyline in Hand I can bounce one of your Nexi indfinitely with Karakas. So you animate both Nexxi, I bounce one and pump Hangabrack Walker.
You cannot race the Walker.

[tescrin]

I think:
̶#̶1̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶s̶u̶p̶p̶o̶s̶e̶d̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶3̶-̶1̶.̶ ̶Y̶o̶u̶ ̶w̶i̶n̶ ̶O̶T̶P̶ ̶b̶e̶c̶a̶u̶s̶e̶ ̶h̶e̶'̶s̶ ̶l̶o̶c̶k̶e̶d̶ ̶o̶u̶t̶ ̶u̶n̶l̶e̶s̶s̶ ̶h̶e̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶c̶e̶s̶,̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶w̶h̶i̶c̶h̶ ̶c̶a̶s̶e̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶r̶ ̶t̶w̶o̶ ̶t̶h̶r̶e̶a̶t̶s̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶b̶e̶t̶t̶e̶r̶.̶ ̶Y̶o̶u̶ ̶d̶r̶a̶w̶ ̶O̶T̶D̶ ̶b̶e̶c̶a̶u̶s̶e̶ ̶h̶e̶ ̶h̶a̶s̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶c̶l̶a̶i̶m̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶r̶ ̶I̶n̶k̶m̶o̶t̶h̶ ̶(̶i̶t̶'̶l̶l̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶t̶o̶o̶ ̶f̶a̶s̶t̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶a̶ ̶r̶a̶c̶e̶.̶)̶ ̶T̶h̶u̶s̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶h̶o̶l̶d̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶r̶ ̶B̶l̶i̶n̶k̶ ̶u̶p̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶b̶l̶o̶c̶k̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶b̶o̶g̶l̶e̶ ̶i̶f̶ ̶h̶e̶ ̶a̶t̶t̶a̶c̶k̶s̶.̶ ̶I̶f̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶p̶l̶a̶y̶ ̶b̶l̶i̶n̶k̶ ̶f̶i̶r̶s̶t̶,̶ ̶h̶e̶ ̶s̶t̶i̶l̶l̶ ̶a̶t̶t̶a̶c̶k̶s̶ ̶f̶i̶r̶s̶t̶,̶ ̶m̶e̶a̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶'̶l̶l̶ ̶e̶i̶t̶h̶e̶r̶ ̶l̶o̶s̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶r̶a̶c̶e̶ ̶o̶r̶ ̶t̶r̶a̶d̶e̶ ̶=̶>̶ ̶d̶r̶a̶w̶.̶
EDIT: nm slosh was right

#8 He plays orb OTD and slow plays the Dreads. 12/12 > 2/2 infect :)




22. Sloshthedark: Blinkmoth Nexus, Inkmoth Nexus, City of Traitors, Sphere of Resistance PTS OTP/OTD

1. Asthereal (TO): Force of Will, Sea's Claim, Slippery Bogle, Island 3-3
8. Fallen_Empire: City of Traitors, Torpor Orb, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Phyrexian Dreadnought 3-3



I think those are the only mistakes (assuming I'm correct)

How so? With Leyline in Hand I can bounce one of your Nexi indfinitely with Karakas. So you animate both Nexxi, I bounce one and pump Hangabrack Walker.
You cannot race the Walker.

Re-read Leyline of Singularity - all Nonland permanents. The reason you beat mine is because you grow until I can't do anything about it; in which case you eventually become 'uge. In his case Hangerback is just a growing dude and he hits for "4" a turn. By the time you are even a 4/4 you're already at 5-7 infect. If you had a sac-outlet you could draw each game instead I think.

[Asthereal]

You need to clean space for new messages. Getting an error message.
I didn't know that would be a thing so soon.
I've made some space. You can send again.

[Sloshthedark]

I think:
#1 is supposed to be 3-1. You win OTP because he's locked out unless he forces, in which case your two threats are better. You draw OTD because he has to claim your Inkmoth (it'll be too fast of a race.) Thus you hold your Blink up and block the bogle if he attacks. If you play blink first, he still attacks first, meaning you'll either lose the race or trade => draw.

If he starts Island+bogle I Blinkmoth, go to 19 Inkmoth+Sphere and win the race with Inkmoth

#8 He plays orb OTD and slow plays the Dreads. 12/12 > 2/2 infect :)

Eh of course... Tnx

[Wrath of Pie]

for suggestions - what about some publicly shared spreadsheet for results? it's quite hard to navigate and crosscheck all the posts
The GoogleDoc spreadsheets used when I played at NGA should still be up, probably will recommend just using that as a base because it worked quite well.

It also has a cross-checker to make sure that the matchup points are correct both ways.

[Tylert]

22. Sloshthedark: Blinkmoth Nexus, Inkmoth Nexus, City of Traitors, Sphere of Resistance PTS OTP/OTD
17. Tylert: Havenwood Battleground, city of traitors, Eureka, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn 3-3


Hum... I'd love to have 3 more points, but why do you think i can win any of these games?
OTP i drop havenwood battleground, then you drop city and cast sphere. I can't cast eureka.
OTD, you drop city, cast sphere and still can't cast Eureka.

Therefore, you win both games.

Tell me if you agree.

[Asthereal]

The GoogleDoc spreadsheets used when I played at NGA should still be up, probably will recommend just using that as a base because it worked quite well.

It also has a cross-checker to make sure that the matchup points are correct both ways.
Public Google spreadsheet is a VERY good idea.
I'll try to find time to build one for the next round.

[tescrin]

Hum... I'd love to have 3 more points, but why do you think i can win any of these games?
OTP i drop havenwood battleground, then you drop city and cast sphere. I can't cast eureka.
OTD, you drop city, cast sphere and still can't cast Eureka.

Therefore, you win both games.

Tell me if you agree.

He agrees, you're just misreading his format. I did the same thing as I went over it. Basically he's saying "OTP I get 3 points, OTD I get three points" instead of saying " 6-0 like some people did; or in my case "WW, 6pts"

I prefer the WW, WD, WL, DD, DL, LL style for recording what happened, then stating how many points that's worth (just for ease of checking point-math.) Normalizing the data (which would happen in a shared spreadsheet as suggested) would help to clear confusion on these matters.

[Wrath of Pie]

Public Google spreadsheet is a VERY good idea.
I'll try to find time to build one for the next round.
This (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_HfPcFp5t6eAsDYTaxU0UggMQyvPx9OAlNbCFetGm2I/edit#gid=952449072) is the most recent spreadsheet I could find from NGA, hopefully that helps you out.

[apple713]

This (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_HfPcFp5t6eAsDYTaxU0UggMQyvPx9OAlNbCFetGm2I/edit#gid=952449072) is the most recent spreadsheet I could find from NGA, hopefully that helps you out.

I was also surprised to see the following cards on the banned list. What am I missing?

summer bloom
Glacial chasm
Exploration
Pyrokenesis
Panoptic mirror but not isochron scepter
ugin, the spirit dragon but not emrakul
Simian spirit guide but not elvish spirit guide or lotus petal

[Wrath of Pie]

I was also surprised to see the following cards on the banned list. What am I missing?

summer bloom
Glacial chasm
Exploration
Pyrokenesis
Panoptic mirror but not isochron scepter
ugin, the spirit dragon but not emrakul
Simian spirit guide but not elvish spirit guide or lotus petal

It was done in seasons, and each season there were options to add/remove cards from the banned list on top of the worst performer getting to ban a card from the winning hand, which is why it looks inconsistent with what would be an optimal banned list.

Exploration and Summer Bloom were because we tried a variant format that added the ability to play a basic land of your choice from outside the game each turn, and Exploration naturally won the first time and Summer Bloom was discussed as well.

It died out because there was not enough interest among the users. While there was discussion of starting a card blind blog, it never really went anywhere.

[phonics]

Public Google spreadsheet is a VERY good idea.
I'll try to find time to build one for the next round.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-DWkKTIUEXrCmK1idv2xg4Iw64Ik2c9NG05QxYmOL2E/edit?usp=sharing

I actually made a quick spreadsheet the other day but I havent gotten around to filling anything out yet. Its public edit so anyone can fill it in.

edit: just looking at some of the results people posted, I agree with most but I think some might be different but I am not entirely sure (its pretty late when I am writing this and am just doing it before I go to bed), maybe someone else could check:

23. JosefK: Blackmail, Cabal Therapy, Swamp, The Rack

I think I win both

OTP
swamp blackmail, he has to reveal either rack or swamp as third card
if he reveals swamp he cannot play spells and I can win
if he reveals rack take rack, next turn he discards one of my threats, i play the other one and win

OTD
t1 - Swamp blackmail
hide swamp, take blackmail or else I can blackmail his rack on my turn and win
t1 - factory, cast rack
t2 - take 1 damage from rack (opp:19), cast rack or else he has no way to win and takes 1 dmg each turn
t2 - take 2 damage (me:18), play swamp activate factory deal 2 damage (opp:17 life)
t3 - take 3 damage (opp:14) pass
t3 - take 3 damage (me:15), attack with factory deal 2 (opp:12)
t4 - take 3 damage (opp:9) pass
t4 - take 3 damage (me:12), attack with factory deal 2 (opp:7)
t5 - take 3 damage (opp:4) pass
t5 - take 3 damage (me:9), attack with factory deal 2 (opp:2)
t6 - deal 3 damage (opp:-1)
outrace 5dmg v 3


4. CptHaddock: Force of Will, Misthollow Griffin, Saprazzan Cove, Mental Misstep

I think for both games I have no reason to play spells and can force the issue with factory attacks, which cant be interacted with, eventually forcing the griffin to be played, at which point I can then blackmail to get misstep out of hand either through casting or force, then I can play my vise to outrace

e.g.
OTP
t1 - factory go?
t1 - land citp go
t2 - land factory attack (18)
t2 - add storage counter (1) go
t3 - factory attack (16)
t3 - storage counter (2)
t4 - factory attack (14)
etc


15. Dan Pyre: Swamp, Cabal Ritual, Lotus Petal, Phyrexian Crusader

I think I win both

OTP
t1 - blackmail take any card and win

OTD
t1 - plays crusader
t1 - factory rack
t2 - take rack damage (17) attack (2 infect)
t2 - swamp go
t3 - take rack damage (14) cant attack because I can trade with factory block pump giving it 3 power to survive first trike, vice gives inevitability

and heres the other ones that havent been done yet


3. Matsu: Rishadan Port, Mishra's factory,Mental Misstep, Mental Misstep

OTP:
t1 - factory go
t1 - factory go
t2 - swamp attack with factory (opp:18)
t2 - port
t3 - port on upkeep for draw

OTD:
same factory stalemate again

draw/draw

5. Taconaut: Force of Will, Misthollow Griffin, Saprazzan Cove, Confiscate
same as CptHaddock except confiscate is too slow I think

win/win

7. Clx33: Saprazzan Cove, Force of Will, Misthollow Griffin, Propaganda
same as other force griffin decks

8. Fallen_Empire: City of Traitors, Torpor Orb, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Phyrexian Dreadnought

OTP
t1 - land blackmail, has to hide either land or orb, take the other and win

OTD
t1 - land torpor orb
t1 - land blackmail take dreadnought
t2 - play dreadnought
t2 - cant race

win/loss

10. PapriNgomo: Undiscovered Paradise, Undiscovered Paradise, Scythe Leopard, Adventuring Gear

OTP
t1 - land blackmail, has to hide leopard take adventuring gear
t1 - land leopard
t2 - factory rack
t2 - take 1 rack damage (opp:19), play land attack for 2 (me:18)
t3 - pass
t3 - take rack damage (opp:18), cant attack since factory can pump block, rack gives inevitability

OTD
t1 - land leopard or else I blackmail leopard and win
t1 - swamp blackmail gear
t2 - same result as above

win/win

20. beardstorm: Island, Zealous Guardian, Force Spike, Sea's Claim
OTP
t1 - swamp blackmail, has to hide island, take force spike
t1 - island guardian
t2 - factory rack
t2 - take rack damage (opp:18) claim factory attack for 1 (me:19)
t3 - rack outraces guardian

OTD
t1 - island pass
t1 - factory eot guardian
t2 - if he claims then I cast rack and outrace, if he leaves mana for spike I outrace with factory

win/win

26. Darklingske: Tabernacle of Pendrell Vale, Grove of the Burnwillows, Punishing Fire, Dwarven Hold

I think rack outraces OTP and OTD

win/win

28. Kap'n Cook: Force of Will, Judge's Familiar, Tropical Island, Greenbelt Rampager

OTP
t1 - swamp blackmail, he forces (opp:19) or else he loses (hides island or rampager, either cant cast spells or cant race)
t1 - island rampager (1 energy)
t2 - factory rack
t2 - rack damage (opp:17), rampager (2 energy)
t3 - attack with factory (opp:15)
t3 - rack damage (opp:13) cast rampager
t4 - rack and factory outrace rampager

OTD
same as OTD except opponent gets rampager out at 17 life I think?

win/win



total if everything is correct: 143

[Dan Pyre]

15. Dan Pyre: Swamp, Cabal Ritual, Lotus Petal, Phyrexian Crusader

I think I win both

OTP
t1 - blackmail take any card and win

OTD
t1 - plays crusader
t1 - factory rack
t2 - take rack damage (17) attack (2 infect)
t2 - swamp go
t3 - take rack damage (14) cant attack because I can trade with factory block pump giving it 3 power to survive first trike, vice gives inevitability

Remember, one factory will never trade with Crusader - first strike + infect removes it entirely after the +1/+1 wears off (more specifically, it will have two -1/1 counters and will die upon next activation) and Crusader lives through the combat since it only takes 1 damage after first strike.

So:
17 2i
14 block
11 4i
8 6i
5 8i
2 10i - infect wins

Correct?

EDIT: Post below is correct, attacking with Factory wins the race. Updating my scores.