Modern Horizons Spoilers

[BenBleiweiss]

Currently being spoiled on stream. All cards in this set are legal in Modern on down.

First spoiler:

Cabal Therapist
B, 1/1, Creature-Horror
At the beginning of your precombat main phase, you may sacrifice a creature. If you do, choose a nonland card name, then target player reveals their hand and discards all cards with that name.

[H]

https://i.imgur.com/Iu6j85W.jpg

[BenBleiweiss]

Serra the Benevolent
WW2, 4 Loyalty Planeswalker
+2: Creature you control with flying get +1/+1 until end of turn.
-3: Creature a 4/4 Angel Creature token w/ Flying and Vigilance
-6: You get an emblem with "If you contorl a creature, damage that would reduce your life total to less than 1 reduces it to 1 instead."

[H]

https://i.imgur.com/OfFRFlq.jpg

[PirateKing]

Wait so this is a supplemental set that is Modern legal?
Or is this the next set and I missed the Planeswalker War set.

[morgan_coke]

https://i.imgur.com/OfFRFlq.jpg

So she's a 4 mana Serra Angel token with upside OR a one turn delay on an unremovable Worship? That's pretty darn good. Like, that's your new white walker if you want a faster win to pair with Jace and Teferi, or she's a ridic defense mechanism in any kind of weenie or token deck.

Great art too.

[BenBleiweiss]

New set, replacing the Modern Masters line
254 cards + BAB card, the BAB card is a reprint
ALL cards are either brand new to Magic, or are reprints that have NEVER been modern legal (IE, Older than 8th, or Commander/conspiracy type stuff)
Cards bypass standard, and are immediately legal in Modern and older (Legacy, Vintage)
June 14th RElease date

[tescrin]

https://i.imgur.com/Iu6j85W.jpg
The card seems reasonably good; but it also seems like a total parody haha

It's interesting that it basically makes your deck full of cabal therapy's if you want it to be. Seems good with/against SFM (with because it's an evasive beater, against because you just wait until they finally have an equip to sac)

EDIT: just realized it's at the beginning, not just during. That's a lot worse for anti-combo in legacy. Still, a menace 1/1 may be interesting with a relevant anti-hand ability

[H]

Wait so this is a supplemental set that is Modern legal?
Or is this the next set and I missed the Planeswalker War set.

Supplemental set that just skips Standard. Has some reprints, but all reprints have never been Modern legal before.

[PirateKing]

Supplemental set that just skips Standard. Has some reprints, but all reprints have never been Modern legal before.

So this is Modern Meta Shakeup: the Set?
First I'm hearing of it, seems like a big deal though
I need to pay more attention

[H]

So this is Modern Meta Shakeup: the Set?
First I'm hearing of it, seems like a big deal though
I need to pay more attention

Was a stealth sort of announcement. Was first partly "leaked" this morning because CFB posted the events associated with this set, so we found out it existed, but none of the details.

Word on the street is that ""99$ sealed GP entry indicates that the set will be priced as a normal booster set. (recent UMA GP was $150)" but take that with a grain of salt, as I'm not 100% sure about this, vis-à-vis the announced $6.99 price point per pack on MTGO. It also was not said how many packs come per box.

Additional spoilers come in May.

[CptHaddock]

Oh hell yes Time Spiral Pt 2!

[Phoenix Ignition]

Oh shit, does this mean Modern is coming to MTG Arena? That'd be awesome.

[Barook]

EDIT: just realized it's at the beginning, not just during. That's a lot worse for anti-combo in legacy. Still, a menace 1/1 may be interesting with a relevant anti-hand ability
The timing still works decently with all those combat token producers like Legion Warboss/Goblin Rabblemaster.

T1 Cabal Therapist
T2 Bitterblossom
also seems like a complete beating. If you want to be fancy, you could Dark Ritual out both on T1 to have mana open for T2 (although you still wouldn't get Therapies from tokens before T2 this way). But since both parts are dirt cheap and good on their own, this combo is probably something to look out for in the future.

[Purple Blood]

So this is Modern Meta Shakeup: the Set?
First I'm hearing of it, seems like a big deal though
I need to pay more attention

Hoping this cures the fundamental problem with Modern having broken linear decks. If they make a Delver-esque tempo deck viable it could really solve a lot of problems in helping police the never-ending nonsense that goes unchecked in the format. If they don't fix that problem its just gonna be the format of constant bannings.

[Purple Blood]

The timing still works decently with all those combat token producers like Legion Warboss/Goblin Rabblemaster.

T1 Cabal Therapist
T2 Bitterblossom
also seems like a complete beating. If you want to be fancy, you could Dark Ritual out both on T1 to have mana open for T2 (although you still wouldn't get Therapies from tokens before T2 this way). But since both parts are dirt cheap and good on their own, this combo is probably something to look out for in the future.

Also good with Young Peezy (every spell you cast can also double as a Cabal Therapy) and Lingering Souls.

Could also be good with Veteran Explorer.

Ideally it would be in a deck that makes use of the creature itself otherwise I'm not sure its as good as the original Cabal Therapy. Seems like if they have to waste removal on this guy you are already winning.

[Barook]

Could also be good with Veteran Explorer.
A repeatable sac outlet for Nic Fit? Sounds good. Would the deck run up to 8 Therapy effects? With 8x Therapies, 4x GSZ and 4x Explorers, that would give quite a bit of consistency for T2 shenanigans.

[FTW]

A repeatable sac outlet for Nic Fit? Sounds good. Would the deck run up to 8 Therapy effects? With 8x Therapies, 4x GSZ and 4x Explorers, that would give quite a bit of consistency for T2 shenanigans.

You mean T6 shenanigans

T1 Therapist
T2 Explorer
T3 sac explorer for mana

or

T1 Explorer
T2 Therapist
T3 sac explorer for mana

Unfortunately it seems very difficult to have this sac anything even as early as turn 2, due to the timing of the trigger.

[Tylert]

T1: Therapist, Memnite
T2: Use your cabal therapy on a stick.

[bruizar]

All signs point to wotc wanting to merge eternal formats. This will be a net negative for legacy, as modern will creep into and appropriate its identity every modern horizons set they release. 200 reprints per set will only take 3 years before every non-reserved list card with tournament viability becomes modern legal. This means, we keep mostly LED, City of Traitors, Cradle, Metalworker and the original duals. We have seen the unsustainable reprint practices from the masterpieces and modern masters sets. Thismwill take it a step further and will be milked out hard

Wotc will consolidate the fragmented player base and support modern that can be reprinted to demand and thus makes a lot more commercial sense. Given the choice, they will support a format that is not constrained by reserved list for the sole reason of wanting full control over their game.

Legacy players will be thrown a bone to keep them content and unaware of the bigger picture, until it's too late and the identity of legacy has largely vanished.

If you're buying Modern Horizons, you are supporting the slow demise of legacy.

[bruizar]

T1: Therapist, Memnite
T2: Use your cabal therapy on a stick.

How about turn 1 Cabal Therapy.

[kombatkiwi]

All signs point to wotc wanting to merge eternal formats. This will be a net negative for legacy, as modern will creep into and appropriate its identity every modern horizons set they release. 200 reprints per set will only take 3 years before every non-reserved list card with tournament viability becomes modern legal. This means, we keep mostly LED, City of Traitors, Cradle, Metalworker and the original duals. We have seen the unsustainable reprint practices from the masterpieces and modern masters sets. Thismwill take it a step further and will be milked out hard

Wotc will consolidate the fragmented player base and support modern that can be reprinted to demand and thus makes a lot more commercial sense. Given the choice, they will support a format that is not constrained by reserved list for the sole reason of wanting full control over their game.

Legacy players will be thrown a bone to keep them content and unaware of the bigger picture, until it's too late and the identity of legacy has largely vanished.

If you're buying Modern Horizons, you are supporting the slow demise of legacy.

This take only makes sense if you already enjoy current modern and don't want it to change.
As long as the reserved list exists legacy will slowly erode regardless of whatever happens to modern.
If modern evolves to the point that the play experience isn't meaningfully different to legacy then why would I complain, because it means I can get the legacy experience I currently enjoy in a reprintable (read: cheaper, more accessible, higher player numbers) format.

[bruizar]

This take only makes sense if you already enjoy current modern and don't want it to change.
As long as the reserved list exists legacy will slowly erode regardless of whatever happens to modern.
If modern evolves to the point that the play experience isn't meaningfully different to legacy then why would I complain, because it means I can get the legacy experience I currently enjoy in a reprintable (read: cheaper, more accessible, higher player numbers) format.

Fair point. I, and many others, do think modern is in a healthy state right now and doesn't need an aggressive upheaval. That points to me that the intended audience for this set is WOTC, not modern nor legacy players.

And yes, it could be good (better tournament coverage and more support). It could also be bad. But for me, one thing is sure, that is that they are converging legacy and modern into one eternal format. (And rumors are they will introduce a new 'super standard' format in the future starting from either core / dominaria so that it is in sync with the current sets on MTG Arena. This way, reserved list cards will no longer see competitive, sanctioned tournaments and they will have dealt with the reserved list once and for all.

[kombatkiwi]

This way, reserved list cards will no longer see competitive, sanctioned tournaments and they will have dealt with the reserved list once and for all.
This is already happening / has happened regardless of new cards for modern.
You can make the exact same argument ("WotC is focusing all their attention on modern and Legacy/Vintage are cancelled") just based on the fact that modern even exists in the first place
I would rather modern gets attention than they upend the entire eternal format landscape again by phasing out modern and replacing it with Dom-On or whatever is its speculated successor

[bruizar]

I foresee the following reprints as likely:

Baleful Strix
Leovold, Emissary of Trest
Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
Daze
Flusterstorm
Imperial recruiter
Rishadan Port
Maze of Ith
Cabal Therapy
Lotus Petal
Pyroblast
Crop Rotation
Diabolic Edict
Sylvan Library
Council's Judgment
Veteran Explorer
Containment Priest
Berserk
Personal Tutor
Goblin Welder
Hymn to Tourach
Dack Fayden
Pernicious Deed
Ancient Tomb
Gamble
Entomb
Back to Basics
Karakas
Rishadan Port
Brightling
Spellseeker
Oubliette
Lord Windgrace

Many of the block tribal cards (Merfolk and Goblins)
Many of the madness cards like Basking Rootwalla and Circular Logic
More Commander cards
More Portal Three Kingdoms cards
Cards from Battlebond

And these as unlikely, but possible:

Wasteland
True-name nemesis
Brainstorm
Force of Will
Show and tell

What else did I miss?

[Dice_Box]

I foresee the following reprints as likely:

I see most of these as very unlikely. A lot for a bunch of reasons Leo is seen as a mistake for example, so they are unlikely to repeat it. Hymn is a no because it can hit Lands and that's a new no no. Lotus Petal or Tomb is more fast mana, something they have been squashing. Most of your list is things I would bet solidly against ever seeing print in Modern. The idealogy of the format is not the same as Legacy. There are kid gloves in Modern.

The card I would put my money on is Counterspell. Word is they tried to get it into Dom and failed. If they did that then they have likely already judged it fine for Modern (thank fuck) and this set idea may have come from talks about what to do wuth cards like that. Ones they see as fine in Modern but would hurt their precious Standard. It's why I think Daze is also a possible option. That part I think you have right. Daze is easy to play around, but offers some small amounts of free interaction that I feel Modern lacks.

[Smuggo]

I'd be pretty chill about a new eternal format that just didn't have reserve list cards TBH as then I could sell my duals and just play that instead, plus be able to take part in more than just one major GP tournament every 5 years.

[Mr. Safety]

I foresee the following reprints as likely:

Baleful Strix
Leovold, Emissary of Trest
Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
Daze
Flusterstorm
Imperial recruiter
Rishadan Port
Maze of Ith
Cabal Therapy
Lotus Petal
Pyroblast
Crop Rotation
Diabolic Edict
Sylvan Library
Council's Judgment
Veteran Explorer
Containment Priest
Berserk
Personal Tutor
Goblin Welder
Hymn to Tourach
Dack Fayden
Pernicious Deed
Ancient Tomb
Gamble
Entomb
Back to Basics
Karakas
Rishadan Port
Brightling
Spellseeker
Oubliette
Lord Windgrace

Many of the block tribal cards (Merfolk and Goblins)
Many of the madness cards like Basking Rootwalla and Circular Logic
More Commander cards
More Portal Three Kingdoms cards
Cards from Battlebond

And these as unlikely, but possible:

Wasteland
True-name nemesis
Brainstorm
Force of Will
Show and tell

What else did I miss?

This will be modern legal, I think your list is way off. Force, Daze, Wasteland, Lotus Petal, Entomb...no way. Thisi isn't a normal masters set, this will be legal from Modern-back, so there will cards in Modern that haven't been there before.

[Barook]

You mean T6 shenanigans

T1 Therapist
T2 Explorer
T3 sac explorer for mana

or

T1 Explorer
T2 Therapist
T3 sac explorer for mana

Unfortunately it seems very difficult to have this sac anything even as early as turn 2, due to the timing of the trigger.
Nevermind, I should RTFC.


This will be modern legal, I think your list is way off. Force, Daze, Wasteland, Lotus Petal, Entomb...no way. Thisi isn't a normal masters set, this will be legal from Modern-back, so there will cards in Modern that haven't been there before.
I doubt we would get any fast mana cards as Mox Opal and SSG are already iffy.

Hate cards like Flusterstorm, Containment Priests and the likes are probably the best candidates for reprints. We might also see stuff like the Confluence cycle.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Oh shit, does this mean Modern is coming to MTG Arena? That'd be awesome.

In their announcement they said the set wouldn't be coming to arena.

[H]

In their announcement they said the set wouldn't be coming to arena.

I might be misremembering, but I thought they said it wouldn't be coming yet.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I might be misremembering, but I thought they said it wouldn't be coming yet.

I just watched it and didn't hear an implication like that. They also said it was a paper thing, again implying no arena.


As for the two cards spoiled, I think they're incredibly powerful and I don't want to play with/against either of them.

[H]

I just watched it and didn't hear an implication like that. They also said it was a paper thing, again implying no arena.


As for the two cards spoiled, I think they're incredibly powerful and I don't want to play with/against either of them.

OK, I was watching it with the volume rather low, so I thought I heard that.

I don't think either card, while potentially powerful, is unduly so and I also look forward to what nonsensical Blue card, that Blake was hinting at, comes with the set.

[PirateKing]

I might be misremembering, but I thought they said it wouldn't be coming yet.

I might be misremembering, but I thought they didn't have a flying fuck what they were doing and just making it up as they went along.
Their press releases are so vague not for our hyperactive imagination's sake, but because they don't actually know themselves.

Even writing this I'm thinking maybe I'm being too hard on them but even the non-business game side is in shambles with stuff like Hostage Taker making it to print without somebody proofreading to see it combos with itself. Oh well

[Smuggo]

My LGS owner reckons this might be more about Arena than anything else. WotC are apparently withdrawing their support for store events and shifting most of their focus online. He said Arena is now their dominant revenue stream which seems crazy to me that it has got there so quickly but I guess it could be true.

[H]

He said Arena is now their dominant revenue stream which seems crazy to me that it has got there so quickly but I guess it could be true.

I don't buy this. I find it hard to believe that Arena has superseded paper sales metrics even closely. While margin is naturally higher on a digital product, I doubt if there are enough Arena sales to make up the difference.

What I do think though, is that Arena is the growth area by a vastly wide margin. Where paper sales have likely been flat to slightly negative, Arena revenue is likely on the steady rise.

It makes absolutely zero sense for Wizards to want to kill Paper. What you are likely right on though, is that they are shifting the focus, from a low practical growth segment to a high potential growth segment. What makes no sense though, is to kill your steady revenue stream to do it. Which, while pulling some support does hurt, Paper will continue to be the dominant form of Magic, just one less focused on promotionally.

You can't focus on two things at once. That's not focus. The focus now is Arena, so Paper will "suffer" a bit, but that's just the nature of the beast. If you think Paper will go away though, consider, for how long have people insisted Paper books would be gone? They are still here.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

My LGS owner reckons this might be more about Arena than anything else. WotC are apparently withdrawing their support for store events and shifting most of their focus online. He said Arena is now their dominant revenue stream which seems crazy to me that it has got there so quickly but I guess it could be true.

Your LGS owner is over-reacting to the annoucement that they're doing away with league.

[bruizar]

I don't buy this. I find it hard to believe that Arena has superseded paper sales metrics even closely. While margin is naturally higher on a digital product, I doubt if there are enough Arena sales to make up the difference.

What I do think though, is that Arena is the growth area by a vastly wide margin. Where paper sales have likely been flat to slightly negative, Arena revenue is likely on the steady rise.

It makes absolutely zero sense for Wizards to want to kill Paper. What you are likely right on though, is that they are shifting the focus, from a low practical growth segment to a high potential growth segment. What makes no sense though, is to kill your steady revenue stream to do it. Which, while pulling some support does hurt, Paper will continue to be the dominant form of Magic, just one less focused on promotionally.

You can't focus on two things at once. That's not focus. The focus now is Arena, so Paper will "suffer" a bit, but that's just the nature of the beast. If you think Paper will go away though, consider, for how long have people insisted Paper books would be gone? They are still here.

Agree with what you said, just mentioning my LGS doesn't support any constructed events because of how WOTC treats the local game stores and favors the walmarts and amazons of this world. Now there is lots of Legend of the Five Rings today.

[Lemnear]

https://i.imgur.com/Iu6j85W.jpg

I always wondered how discard on a stick (to get around Pierce, Thalia & Co.) might look like. Sadly this card isn't cutting it in Legacy as it's too slow.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

OK, I was watching it with the volume rather low, so I thought I heard that.

I don't think either card, while potentially powerful, is unduly so and I also look forward to what nonsensical Blue card, that Blake was hinting at, comes with the set.

I watched it again: It will be releasing in paper and MODO, and what he said was "[not mtg arena] on launch". And then the other annoucer said "primarily a paper product".

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Oops

[ChiggyWig]

It costs one mana and triggers on your first combat step. You lose a lot of value slamming it alone, but it's not a slow card.

RTFC my man... triggers on precombat main phase.

[H]

Agree with what you said, just mentioning my LGS doesn't support any constructed events because of how WOTC treats the local game stores and favors the walmarts and amazons of this world. Now there is lots of Legend of the Five Rings today.

While I didn't play it then, I do play the L5R LCG now. From that I have heard though, the "issues" with Old5R go beyond just not supporting small stores. The game itself was fundamentally flawed, it seems, in a number of ways, which were all exacerbated over time.

I'm pretty sure that Hasbro's dictum to Wizards is to grow the game, in toto. Straight cannibalizing Paper sales to Arena won't do that. Will there be some trade off though? Absolutely.

The sky isn't falling, we are just in transition. Will some LGS suffer? Yes. Will the game collapse? Likely not. Each LGS is going to have to make a cost-benefit analysis, like any business does, over time, in the face of shifting business and demographic factors. Some might not emerge having events make business sense. Others likely will. That doesn't preclude that the game is worse off, in general, though.

[H]

I watched it again: It will be releasing in paper and MODO, and what he said was "[not mtg arena] on launch". And then the other annoucer said "primarily a paper product".

Ah, ok, I must have interpreted the "on launch" part as an implication that the possibility of it coming at some point was open. Which, perhaps it is, but certainly not definite. I think the issue there is that they do want to somehow get Modern onto Arena, in theory, but are unsure if it's a good idea in practice or how to do it practically speaaking.

[morgan_coke]

My wishlist that I think has a reasonable chance of seeing reprintings:

Unearth - they're very comfortable with rezzing 2cmc stuff from the GY to the battlefield in Standard, so I don't think going up to 3 cmc is a no-go.
Astral Slide/Lightning Rift - people have been asking for these forever, but they're never going to see print in Standard, this would be a great way to get them in.
Counterspell - if Force is the glue that holds Legacy together, this would be the glue for Modern, and honestly it's needed.
Containment Priest/Flusterstorm - combo/nonsense hate is pretty safe and well liked, these both could have been printed in Standard.


Some Legacy defining stuff that definitely WON'T be in new Modern:

Wasteland, Force, Brainstorm, Ancient Tomb, TNN, Leovold

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Counterspell is a great bet, and even got mentioned by name in the video.

I think Carrion Feeder is a good bet too.

[H]

Some Legacy defining stuff that definitely WON'T be in new Modern:

Wasteland, Force, Brainstorm, Ancient Tomb, TNN, Leovold

Yeah, have to say, Wasteland, Force and Brainstorm and Ancient Tomb are completely anenthema to modern design principles.

True name has literally been remarked on by Wizards as an outright mistake. Leovold? Well, I don't really know what they were thinking there, but even now minus Deathrite, it still is a rather stupid design.

That being said, Blue in Modern is vastly different than Blue in Legacy/Vintage, so something like Leovold's impact would likely be different entirely. That doesn't mean it would be good for the format, but I'm not sure I'd say it's definitely terrible for it either.

I think some things that are simple would be good ideas too. Like Pyrobast/Hydrobast and, of course, Counterspell. In Modern, :u::u: is a real trade off in cost from :1::u: so I doubt if Counterspell is a real issue. I think though, we are more likely to see things that were in Commander sets and the like, than we are to see things from pre-8th edition sets.

[Pittplayer]

Whats the trigger timing for Cabal Therapist? Does the opp have to respond to the ability being announced? Or can the opp respond after the card is named?

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Whats the trigger timing for Cabal Therapist? Does the opp have to respond to the ability being announced? Or can the opp respond after the card is named?

The sacrifice, the naming, and the discard are all done during resolution, not when put on the stack.

[Barook]

My LGS owner reckons this might be more about Arena than anything else. WotC are apparently withdrawing their support for store events and shifting most of their focus online. He said Arena is now their dominant revenue stream which seems crazy to me that it has got there so quickly but I guess it could be true.
Heartstone reached revenue much higher than Magic's Paper + Digital combined within 1-2 years. The idea doesn't seem too crazy.

[Ace/Homebrew]

I'm hoping for Goblin Lackey and Goblin Matron/Goblin Ringleader. That *might* get me to completely switch to Modern...

[Dice_Box]

I'm hoping for Goblin Lackey and Goblin Matron/Goblin Ringleader. That *might* get me to completely switch to Modern...
Don't you tease me.

God... But you do not have the Mana control. So maybe something else too. Bidding? Please Bidding. (There won't be Bidding)

[Ace/Homebrew]

I don't know if you'd need it as much... And bullshit like R/B Wort would be playable.

[8bit9mm]

Fire // Ice

That is my wild speculation.

[morgan_coke]

How about Chant/Vindicate/Deed? Or some of the other Invasion greatest hits like Prophetic Bolt and Fact or Fiction?

I mean, just in general I would expect the majority of these "new to Modern" reprints to come from Invasion/Odyssey/Onslaught era. They'd basically figured out modern card design by that point, and for the most parts, those sets were very popular.

Would be cool to see Contested Cliffs make a comeback.

[Purple Blood]

All signs point to wotc wanting to merge eternal formats. This will be a net negative for legacy, as modern will creep into and appropriate its identity every modern horizons set they release. 200 reprints per set will only take 3 years before every non-reserved list card with tournament viability becomes modern legal. This means, we keep mostly LED, City of Traitors, Cradle, Metalworker and the original duals. We have seen the unsustainable reprint practices from the masterpieces and modern masters sets. Thismwill take it a step further and will be milked out hard

Wotc will consolidate the fragmented player base and support modern that can be reprinted to demand and thus makes a lot more commercial sense. Given the choice, they will support a format that is not constrained by reserved list for the sole reason of wanting full control over their game.

Legacy players will be thrown a bone to keep them content and unaware of the bigger picture, until it's too late and the identity of legacy has largely vanished.

If you're buying Modern Horizons, you are supporting the slow demise of legacy.

How is that a bad thing? If (and big if) they make Modern play like legacy (as you're suggesting) you end up with a significantly larger player-base playing the same format for 1/3 of the price.

I wouldn't be surprised if in 5 year the eternal formats are Vintage, Modern (with loads of the legacy cards being printed into the format), Arena Modern.

[H]

How about Chant/Vindicate/Deed? Or some of the other Invasion greatest hits like Prophetic Bolt and Fact or Fiction?

I mean, just in general I would expect the majority of these "new to Modern" reprints to come from Invasion/Odyssey/Onslaught era. They'd basically figured out modern card design by that point, and for the most parts, those sets were very popular.

Would be cool to see Contested Cliffs make a comeback.

My three favorite Magic cards are Counterspell, Hymn to Tourach, and Pernicious Deed.

Hymn is right out. Counterspell I think can be right in. Deed on the other hand, is actually quite, for modern players, unintuitive. Because it can destroy lands, because it doesn't even consider Planewalkers, I just don't think they'll want to introduce it, but I'd sure be happy to be wrong on that. I mean, they have reprinted it several times already, so I think there is a reasonable chance.

Fact or Fiction would be interesting though. Like I've said, Blue in Modern really isn't anything close to dominant, even Jace didn't really change that much, so FoF is likely more than fine. I just don't know what Chant is even good at all, although Vindicate being able to hit lands probably takes it right out of the question.

[morgan_coke]

My three favorite Magic cards are Counterspell, Hymn to Tourach, and Pernicious Deed.

Hymn is right out. Counterspell I think can be right in. Deed on the other hand, is actually quite, for modern players, unintuitive. Because it can destroy lands, because it doesn't even consider Planewalkers, I just don't think they'll want to introduce it, but I'd sure be happy to be wrong on that. I mean, they have reprinted it several times already, so I think there is a reasonable chance.

Fact or Fiction would be interesting though. Like I've said, Blue in Modern really isn't anything close to dominant, even Jace didn't really change that much, so FoF is likely more than fine. I just don't know what Chant is even good at all, although Vindicate being able to hit lands probably takes it right out of the question.

I think Vindicate being able to hit lands is actually a point in its favor right now. They have a HUGE problem with Tron in Modern, because it's just fundamentally a Turn Three deck in a Turn Four format, and they clearly don't want to ban Tron, so having more answers to it is probably a good thing in their books. I mean, Tron is the ONLY reason Trophy is able to hit lands, and considering that Tron can still go off before a three mana LD spell comes online.. I think it's got better than decent odds. Being able to hit planeswalkers is probably a bonus for it too, now that they've started to realize they need more viable 'walker removal.

I do agree that Hymn is right out though.

[FTW]

Heartstone reached revenue much higher than Magic's Paper + Digital combined within 1-2 years. The idea doesn't seem too crazy.

Don't you guys love playing Hearthstone: The Gathering? Well done design team. /s

[H]

I think Vindicate being able to hit lands is actually a point in its favor right now. They have a HUGE problem with Tron in Modern, because it's just fundamentally a Turn Three deck in a Turn Four format, and they clearly don't want to ban Tron, so having more answers to it is probably a good thing in their books. I mean, Tron is the ONLY reason Trophy is able to hit lands, and considering that Tron can still go off before a three mana LD spell comes online.. I think it's got better than decent odds. Being able to hit planeswalkers is probably a bonus for it too, now that they've started to realize they need more viable 'walker removal.

I do agree that Hymn is right out though.

You are probably right. I honestly don't know much about the current state of Modern, as it is. Tron is always a pain in the ass though, in the only non-FNM Modern event I ever played, I had something like 7 Sideboard cards versus Tron, I only managed to find one, once, across both sideboard games and predictably lost. I'd have liked the London mulligan there, but that's for another thread, haha.

That's where the fact that Wasteland will never enter the format really creates second order problems that then need to be address by suboptimal solutions. But Wasteland would wreck the whole format, frankly. I really wonder if a Tectonic Edge without the number of lands clause would really be all that broken though. I don't know that we'll ever find out though.

[bruizar]

How is that a bad thing? If (and big if) they make Modern play like legacy (as you're suggesting) you end up with a significantly larger player-base playing the same format for 1/3 of the price.

I wouldn't be surprised if in 5 year the eternal formats are Vintage, Modern (with loads of the legacy cards being printed into the format), Arena Modern.

this is exactly what will happen

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I'm hoping for Goblin Lackey and Goblin Matron/Goblin Ringleader. That *might* get me to completely switch to Modern...
Is it post our wishlist time?
A nearly functional reprint of Phyrexian Dreadnought
Stifle
Grim monolith
The abolishment of the reserved list
And then actual Phyrexian Dreadnought.

[kombatkiwi]

The sacrifice, the naming, and the discard are all done during resolution, not when put on the stack.

It uses the new Hypothesizzle templating (can't remember the technical name for these triggers)
1. Therapist ability triggers
2. Ability resolves, you may sacrifice a creature
3. Second half of therapist ability triggers, choose target player, opp can respond
4. Resolves, name a card

If it said "if you do" rather than "when you do" then you would have to choose a target when you put the 'sacrifice a creature' ability on the stack, and once that resolved you would name a card and discard without any player having a chance to respond

[tescrin]

I just realized that it's super strange for them to put "at the beginning of your precombat main phase."

The only reason I could see them doing that instead of upkeep (where things like this belong) is to make it better with vial? :really:
Is there some other upkeep thing I'm missing that would make him super OP?

[Dice_Box]

I just realized that it's super strange for them to put "at the beginning of your precombat main phase."

The only reason I could see them doing that instead of upkeep (where things like this belong) is to make it better with vial? :really:
Is there some other upkeep thing I'm missing that would make him super OP?
I think it's to make his effect feel more like a Sorcery. To fit with the card it's a reference to.

[kombatkiwi]

I think it's to make his effect feel more like a Sorcery. To fit with the card it's a reference to.

Maybe,
It also lets you choose what to name after you see what you drew for the turn, so it's a slight buff in that sense

[Erdvermampfa]

You people forget that Counterspell embodies everything that led WoTC to the foundation of Modern in the first place, i.e. people getting mad when they get their stuff countered efficiently but who are completely fine as long as their Grizzly Bears gets discarded or doombladed. I don't think that a modern-legal Counterspell reprint is likely.

[Poron]

You people forget that Counterspell embodies everything that led WoTC to the foundation of Modern in the first place, i.e. people getting mad when they get their stuff countered efficiently but who are completely fine as long as their Grizzly Bears gets discarded or doombladed. I don't think that a modern-legal Counterspell reprint is likely.

A format where blue is not dominant and where dual lands are not around?

Sounds like a piace where we want to be

[Pittplayer]

A format where blue is not dominant and where dual lands are not around?

Sounds like a piace where we want to be

But for a format with blue not to be dominant... you have to ban all the combo cards out of existence. And in a format where combo is not a thing, aggro and tempo decks thrive pushing out control decks. In short, you get standard. Mostly creature decks, a little of slow combo, and no real control decks. The reason I play legacy is that decks that revolve around more than just attacking with creatures are what interest me. I love non creature based combo, I love control and prison decks, etc. The majority of MtG players just want, t1 play dude, t2 attack with dude, gameplay. Easy mechanics, simple fast gameplay. I don't. That is why I play legacy. I will not play modern. And if they kill legacy, I am done with Magic.

[joven]

You people forget that Counterspell embodies everything that led WoTC to the foundation of Modern in the first place, i.e. people getting mad when they get their stuff countered efficiently but who are completely fine as long as their Grizzly Bears gets discarded or doombladed. I don't think that a modern-legal Counterspell reprint is likely.

I agree. I think WotC once said they don't want full counter spells for UU (or less) in the future, including Modern. It was around the time Modern was established.
It doesn't matter if Blue is dominating in the format or not. People tend to complain when Blue is dominating.

Also, wouldn't reprinting stuff like Counterspell, Daze and Force of Will just wreck the whole children combo shenanigans that is going on in Modern that Modern players love so much? Same goes for Cryptic Command, which could loose a lot of its playability. I imagine Modern players wouldn't like that.
And it would be sad if Modern would lose its identity (even for me who doesn't like Modern).

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

It uses the new Hypothesizzle templating (can't remember the technical name for these triggers)
1. Therapist ability triggers
2. Ability resolves, you may sacrifice a creature
3. Second half of therapist ability triggers, choose target player, opp can respond
4. Resolves, name a card

If it said "if you do" rather than "when you do" then you would have to choose a target when you put the 'sacrifice a creature' ability on the stack, and once that resolved you would name a card and discard without any player having a chance to respond

Triggered abilities can have triggered abilities now? (Reflexive triggers, was the word you were looking for)
Guess I'm just old now but I think these new cards are incredibly powerful and that they're templated to be even stronger based on realitively new rule changes just makes it more aggravating. Why does it have menace? Why does Serra only need one tic?

[Fox]

I think Serra is fine making Worship a slightly more playable card. I'm less of a fan of 4 mana Serra angel with second angel in 2 turns; still I think Gideon probably continues to see more play. The pillow fort (i.e. Worship) stuff doesn't make for great magic though; kinda need cards more cards around that drain life....like say DRS. :cool:

[LeoCop 90]

Cabal therapist needed t be a goblin. it would have made the deck tier 2/1,5 i think. It's exactly what the deck needed, a one mana play that lets you have a chance against combo decks.

Being a horror it is mostly unplayable i think. A one mana 1/1 isn't going to cut it in legacy if it doesn't have tribal synergies. It's cool with token producers or creatures that come back from the yard, but i don't see decks that would want to adopt it, or new archetypes that it could spam.

[Mr. Safety]

Cabal therapist needed t be a goblin. it would have made the deck tier 2/1,5 i think. It's exactly what the deck needed, a one mana play that lets you have a chance against combo decks.

Being a horror it is mostly unplayable i think. A one mana 1/1 isn't going to cut it in legacy if it doesn't have tribal synergies. It's cool with token producers or creatures that come back from the yard, but i don't see decks that would want to adopt it, or new archetypes that it could spam.

I disagree on 2 specific points:
1) it should have been a zombie, it fits flavor-wise and mechanically with recursive zombies, ie: Gravecrawler
2) its playable for sure. Where? I don't know for certain but i know it will be tried in DGA alongside lingering souls. A menace 1 drop for equipment with relevant disruptive ability? Its a DGA players wet dream.

[Pittplayer]

I disagree on 2 specific points:
1) it should have been a zombie, it fits flavor-wise and mechanically with recursive zombies, ie: Gravecrawler
2) its playable for sure. Where? I don't know for certain but i know it will be tried in DGA alongside lingering souls. A menace 1 drop for equipment with relevant disruptive ability? Its a DGA players wet dream.

In my Smallpox deck, Therapist is pretty good out of the sideboard. Vs combo decks like Tendrils or High Tide board out 4 Innocent Blood board in 4 Therapist.

[Zombie]

Cabal therapist needed t be a goblin. it would have made the deck tier 2/1,5 i think. It's exactly what the deck needed, a one mana play that lets you have a chance against combo decks.

Being a horror it is mostly unplayable i think. A one mana 1/1 isn't going to cut it in legacy if it doesn't have tribal synergies. It's cool with token producers or creatures that come back from the yard, but i don't see decks that would want to adopt it, or new archetypes that it could spam.

You misspelled "green Elf" :P

[tescrin]

Triggered abilities can have triggered abilities now? (Reflexive triggers, was the word you were looking for)
Guess I'm just old now but I think these new cards are incredibly powerful and that they're templated to be even stronger based on realitively new rule changes just makes it more aggravating.
I guess. You can still just stifle the second trigger if you're worried about it; I am pretty sure it's actually weaker because you sac your guy before you get the trigger. This means you are paying the "additional cost" of sac'ing a guy before you get to name a card; much like how Cabal Therapy requires a cost before you get to name a card (and can be countered after they lose their dude.)


Why does Serra only need one tic?
This is simply just your memory. It actually used to be a lot more common to only require one tick to threaten: Garruk Wildspeaker, Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas, Elspeth Tirel, Tezzeret the Seeker, and others; all within the first couple sets of having planeswalkers.

The weirder "0 tick ultimates" came along (Kira, Gideon/Trails) but those seemed sufficiently low power level to not be a problem.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I guess. You can still just stifle the second trigger if you're worried about it; I am pretty sure it's actually weaker because you sac your guy before you get the trigger. This means you are paying the "additional cost" of sac'ing a guy before you get to name a card; much like how Cabal Therapy requires a cost before you get to name a card (and can be countered after they lose their dude.) or they get their own exit the battlefield triggers to resolve before you name anything.



This is simply just your memory. It actually used to be a lot more common to only require one tick to threaten: Garruk Wildspeaker, Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas, Elspeth Tirel, Tezzeret the Seeker, and others; all within the first couple sets of having planeswalkers.
Other than Garruk whose ultimate is "overrun" two of those are from mirrodin besieged which was three blocks later. So I'm not sure what your point is here.

[Octopusman]

Is it grammatically okay for Serra not to have a comma after her name?

[tescrin]

Other than Garruk whose ultimate is "overrun" two of those are from mirrodin besieged which was three blocks later. So I'm not sure what your point is here.
You realize that Mirrodin besieged is like.. 8 years old right? If you're talking about "new design" and it was done in the first printing of planeswalkers then it's just an incorrect assertion. To show it wasn't a 1-off, I showed that they continued using that design (eight years ago) on several other walkers; of which I don't think I supplied an exhaustive list.

Your point was that this new-fangled design is ruining the game or some such; my point is that that premise is fundamentally proven wrong by simply showing you that that design has existed for the entirety of planeswalker's existence as a card type.

NOTE: I'm happy to instead take that Planeswalkers are ruining the game or some such; as I still have friends who pretty much quit a casual game if they see one resolve haha

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

You realize that Mirrodin besieged is like.. 8 years old right? If you're talking about "new design" and it was done in the first printing of planeswalkers then it's just an incorrect assertion. To show it wasn't a 1-off, I showed that they continued using that design (eight years ago) on several other walkers; of which I don't think I supplied an exhaustive list.

Good thing my assertion wasn't "new design" or this might have been relevant. If you're reaching back eight years (and misrepresenting when they were printed, ie NOT when Planeswalker first came out) to find a relevant example maybe you should think why they haven't been so common in recent history? Could it be that that figured out that this was a bad idea and moved away from it?


Your point was that this new-fangled design is ruining the game or some such; my point is that that premise is fundamentally proven wrong by simply showing you that that design has existed for the entirety of planeswalker's existence as a card type.

My point was that I didn't like the card. You drew a whole bunch of conclusions on your own using factually inaccurate information. Rtfp and don't project next time.

[Captain Hammer]

Here is my wishlist...

Step 1. Use future MH sets to reprint every single legacy legal card thats not on the reserved list


Step 2. Wait for this new format to completely displace legacy, looks mostly like legacy does today but free of the reserve list, and also introduce this format to Arena


Step 3. Merge vintage and legacy into one large defunct older format that no one plays. This defunct format would share its banned/restricted list with EDH for simplicity’s sake, because the only people still playing reserve list cards at that point are EDH players

[Pittplayer]

Here is my wishlist...

Step 1. Use future MH sets to reprint every single legacy legal card thats not on the reserved list


Step 2. Wait for this new format to completely displace legacy, looks mostly like legacy does today but free of the reserve list, and also introduce this format to Arena


Step 3. Merge vintage and legacy into one large defunct older format that no one plays. This defunct format would share its banned/restricted list with EDH for simplicity’s sake, because the only people still playing reserve list cards at that point are EDH players

There is so many problems with this that it's not even funny. First of all if they did that, most all the cards that make legacy, legacy, would immediately be insta banned. Tendrils of Agony, Brainstorm, Hymn to Tourach, Wasteland, Entomb, Natural Order, Dark Ritual, Ancient Tomb, etc. What would be the point of trying to make modern " legacy lite " ? And for us hard core legacy players, we don't want to play Vintage, price being the number one concern. But also Vintage is horrible for deck building. You have
like 5 or 6 cards that have to be in every deck to be competitive. Legacy to me is the perfect format, you get the entire history of MTG cards, you get all the deck types represented in non watered down ways, combo, prison, control, etc. I see a lot of comments being made about people welcoming a death to legacy. I'm glad people like modern. Why kill another format because you don't like legacy and prefer modern? Modern to me seems like standard but with more cards. It's a creature combat centered format that has some janky not good combo decks, no real control decks, zero prison decks, and lots and lots of tempo, aggro, and mid-range decks. That is not a format that is fun to me. As a player who prefers control/prison/resource denial style decks, I don't want to play a format where counter spells are three mana and land destruction is seen as not viable for the format. Leave legacy be. Enjoy modern. I don't want to play modern. It's a good thing to have multiple playable formats for different people.

[H]

There is a more fundamental issue with the idea that Wizards "replaces" Legacy with Modern. It's the fact that it already happened, years and years ago.

Maybe Wizards drops the tiny, tiny amount of support they have for Legacy, by way of their sanctioned events. So what? The format has been and will still be in the hands of the players. SCG is unlikely to completely discontinue events as long as people still show up. Not to mention, these Team Trio events are reasonably popular right now, what's the three formats of the future for Paper? Standard, "Paper" Modern, and Arena Modern? Pauper? Not in the likely future in my estimation.

As long as there are cards people want to play in each format, people will still be playing those formats. Arena is the "future" of the game, but we have always been function of the past. In fact, that's the whole point. In the far, far future (whatever that means) Legacy and Vintage will be the Old School of tomorrow, where EC or someone else runs the format as they see fit.

[Pittplayer]

There is a more fundamental issue with the idea that Wizards "replaces" Legacy with Modern. It's the fact that it already happened, years and years ago.

Maybe Wizards drops the tiny, tiny amount of support they have for Legacy, by way of their sanctioned events. So what? The format has been and will still be in the hands of the players. SCG is unlikely to completely discontinue events as long as people still show up. Not to mention, these Team Trio events are reasonably popular right now, what's the three formats of the future for Paper? Standard, "Paper" Modern, and Arena Modern? Pauper? Not in the likely future in my estimation.

As long as there are cards people want to play in each format, people will still be playing those formats. Arena is the "future" of the game, but we have always been function of the past. In fact, that's the whole point. In the far, far future (whatever that means) Legacy and Vintage will be the Old School of tomorrow, where EC or someone else runs the format as they see fit.

I mostly play online. And finding online players for dead formats is not fun.

[H]

I mostly play online. And finding online players for dead formats is not fun.

I'm not sure your point here, you think that the, what, 3 Legacy GPs, worldwide, per year, is keeping Legacy from whatever you call "death?"

Or is your point that MTGO is?

[Pittplayer]

I'm not sure your point here, you think that the, what, 3 Legacy GPs, worldwide, per year, is keeping Legacy from whatever you call "death?"

Or is your point that MTGO is?

People post games, and look for games in real formats. If Legacy stopped being a supported and actual format and became a " kitchen table " format, it would severely decrease the number of players who post games and look for games of legacy. Not sure what you are not getting here.

[H]

People post games, and look for games in real formats. If Legacy stopped being a supported and actual format and became a " kitchen table " format, it would severely decrease the number of players who post games and look for games of legacy. Not sure what you are not getting here.

What defines it as a "real" format? I really doubt they will unilaterally end the very concept of what Legacy is, regardless of what they do with Modern.

MTGO on the other hand, will die eventually, I doubt there is any way around that.

[tescrin]

Good thing my assertion wasn't "new design" or this might have been relevant.

Guess I'm just old now but I think these new cards are *snip* templated to be even stronger based on realitively new rule changes Why does Serra only need one tic?
______________

If you're reaching back eight years (and misrepresenting when they were printed, ie NOT when Planeswalker first came out)
You mean Lorwyn? You know.. when

Garruk Wildspeaker
came out? Which of course the reason I "reached back" to when they were first printed was, again, because of this claim:

Guess I'm just old now but I think these new cards are *snip* templated to be even stronger based on realitively new rule changes Why does Serra only need one tic?
to find a relevant example maybe you should think why they haven't been so common in recent history? Could it be that that figured out that this was a bad idea and moved away from it?Lol. I showed you one from the first set they printed with 'Walkers because it proved your point wrong. I then showed you some from a few sets later to show it wasn't a one-off or even that rare. Because you insist on moving the goalposts, here is yet another 1-tic ultimate from a couple years back in Nissa, Vital Force

This doesn't even count the whole smattering of cards like Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, Kaya-Ghost, Gideon-Trials, Chandra Flamecaller, et all; who can "ult" the turn they come down. It's not new. It wasn't abandoned. We've seen plenty of examples recently and since their inception. You're just wrong.

[joven]

Step 1. Use future MH sets to reprint every single legacy legal card thats not on the reserved list


Isn't there already a "No Reseved List Legacy"? Just play that and make it popular!
No need to destroy the Modern identity.



Step 2. Wait for this new format to completely displace legacy, looks mostly like legacy does today but free of the reserve list, and also introduce this format to Arena


I guess everything will come to Arena eventually, but it will take several years.
Also, Arena is not perfect.



Step 3. Merge vintage and legacy into one large defunct older format that no one plays. This defunct format would share its banned/restricted list with EDH for simplicity’s sake, because the only people still playing reserve list cards at that point are EDH players


It makes no sense to throw things together.



MTGO on the other hand, will die eventually, I doubt there is any way around that.

I assume that's true. But I sincerely hope WotC waits before they shut it down until Arena can support all formats and then at least migrate peoples' collections from MTGO to Arena.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

______________

You mean Lorwyn? You know.. when

came out? Which of course the reason I "reached back" to when they were first printed was, again, because of this claim:
Lol. I showed you one from the first set they printed with 'Walkers because it proved your point wrong. I then showed you some from a few sets later to show it wasn't a one-off or even that rare. Because you insist on moving the goalposts, here is yet another 1-tic ultimate from a couple years back in Nissa, Vital Force

This doesn't even count the whole smattering of cards like Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, Kaya-Ghost, Gideon-Trials, Chandra Flamecaller, et all; who can "ult" the turn they come down. It's not new. It wasn't abandoned. We've seen plenty of examples recently and since their inception. You're just wrong.

Oh I see, we're just going to drink our dumb juice.

[H]

I assume that's true. But I sincerely hope WotC waits before they shut it down until Arena can support all formats and then at least migrate peoples' collections from MTGO to Arena.

I think that Wizards is actually not sure, at this moment, just what to do with the question of MTGO. On the one hand, they know how difficult it would be to bring every card over to Arena. On the other, they know how bad, even from just a PR standpoint, it would be to just flat out kill MTGO. Add to this the further "complicated" issue of what to do with people's collections. No doubt Hasbro's mouth waters at the prospect of selling people the same database rows again, but even they have the slightest scruples to realize how bad those optics would be if there were just a flat wipe of collections. In the end, they are going to try to take some kind of "middle road," once they "figure" just how much they think they can feasibly milk out of players while fostering minimal outrage. At least, likely so for Modern, when it comes.

The one thing they certainly cannot do, until everything is already in motion, is make any sort of definitive statement about the future of Eternal on either platform.

[morgan_coke]

Wizards had a big problem with Vintage that Legacy solved: the ability to ban things.

Wizards has a big problem with Legacy that new Modern will solve: the ability to reprint things.

Legacy won't "die" but it will be relegated to Vintage/ '94 status.

[Fox]

I imagine cycles like Words of X (bears etc.), Anger/Wonder/etc, Wishes are reasonably likely to be fine in modern. Mercadian free spells should be okay...but Misd is a good deal more destructive to a format when it's 4x playable (since you can't play FoW) - the card just trashes fair decks who love putting redirection targets on board for their own interactive spells (not a bad thing, but that's subjective).

Sets like this would also be a good excuse to print good art (expedition Misty, Teferi with tree/Amonkhet promo arts etc) with real borders and not foil. It would also be a fine place to print hot garbage like Atraxa/Silas Renn/Kess/etc in a not-foil.

[Lord Seth]

I think Vindicate being able to hit lands is actually a point in its favor right now. They have a HUGE problem with Tron in Modern, because it's just fundamentally a Turn Three deck in a Turn Four format, and they clearly don't want to ban Tron, so having more answers to it is probably a good thing in their books.A huge problem with Tron? You mean the deck that didn't get a single Top 8 in the last four Grand Prix? Seriously, I feel like Tron could be less than 1% of the metagame and people would still whine about how it's a problem.

If there's any "problem" in Modern right now, it's Arclight Phoenix.

[Tylert]

A huge problem with Tron? You mean the deck that didn't get a single Top 8 in the last four Grand Prix? Seriously, I feel like Tron could be less than 1% of the metagame and people would still whine about how it's a problem.

If there's any "problem" in Modern right now, it's Arclight Phoenix.

Or faithless looting?

[Barook]

A huge problem with Tron? You mean the deck that didn't get a single Top 8 in the last four Grand Prix? Seriously, I feel like Tron could be less than 1% of the metagame and people would still whine about how it's a problem.

If there's any "problem" in Modern right now, it's Arclight Phoenix.
Dredge is also huge. Tylert ist correct that Faithless Looting is the "problem" if you want to see it as one.

Modern already has access to the most efficient GY hate and I doubt they could print anything new that would change everything. Leyline of the Void + London mulligan would probably have a bigger effect on crippling both decks if it came into effect.

As for (re)prints, I wonder how much jank the set is going to contain for Limited purposes.

[morgan_coke]

Containment Priest getting printed in Horizons - which is likely - pretty much beats the ever living heck out of Dredge and Phoenix. Tron is always a problem just waiting on the wrong colorless card to get printed. It's possible to print stuff that hates on all the big decks in the same set.

[Fox]

Containment Priest getting printed in Horizons - which is likely - pretty much beats the ever living heck out of Dredge and Phoenix. Tron is always a problem just waiting on the wrong colorless card to get printed. It's possible to print stuff that hates on all the big decks in the same set.

Damping Sphere already happened, as did Alpine Moon. Giving UW access to CP seems like it's probably a bad idea in modern since it hoses every Vial deck and most any strategy trying to use the yard. That's a pretty massive virtual boost to SB space for one deck, in a format that is defined by slamming "my SB card says you lose" as the central strategy (as opposed to being interactive).

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Damping Sphere already happened, as did Alpine Moon. Giving UW access to CP seems like it's probably a bad idea in modern since it hoses every Vial deck and most any strategy trying to use the yard. That's a pretty massive virtual boost to SB space for one deck, in a format that is defined by slamming "my SB card says you lose" as the central strategy (as opposed to being interactive).

Wizards will not rest until all decks are human hatebears.

[LeoCop 90]

I disagree on 2 specific points:
1) it should have been a zombie, it fits flavor-wise and mechanically with recursive zombies, ie: Gravecrawler
2) its playable for sure. Where? I don't know for certain but i know it will be tried in DGA alongside lingering souls. A menace 1 drop for equipment with relevant disruptive ability? Its a DGA players wet dream.

Sure, a zombie would have been better flavor - wise. I just wish it was a goblin because goblins is the deck that notoriously need some form of maindeck goblin-shaped combo hate.
If it was a zombie, would probably get played in zombardment, but that deck doesn't need the card so desperately. You can play good old cabal therapy in zombardment ; in goblins, you can't, because for the deck to work you need to be playing basically all goblins.
I highly doubt the card will see play in non-tribal decks like deadguy ale, but we'll see i guess.

[Smuggo]

Containment Priest getting printed in Horizons - which is likely - pretty much beats the ever living heck out of Dredge and Phoenix. Tron is always a problem just waiting on the wrong colorless card to get printed. It's possible to print stuff that hates on all the big decks in the same set.

And then they can unban Golgari Grave Troll.... again!

[Mirrislegend]

In addition to killing Phoenix and Dredge, Containment Priest kills Eldritch Evolution, Chord of Calling, Collected Company, Aether Vial, Living End, Through the Breach, Goryo's Vengeance, and all decks that hoped to use Flickerwisp or Eldrazi Displacer on their own stuff. The format would devolve to midrange, all-in aggro, and control. I would literally quit Modern.

[niv]

In addition to killing Phoenix and Dredge, Containment Priest kills Eldritch Evolution, Chord of Calling, Collected Company, Aether Vial, Living End, Through the Breach, Goryo's Vengeance, and all decks that hoped to use Flickerwisp or Eldrazi Displacer on their own stuff. The format would devolve to midrange, all-in aggro, and control. I would literally quit Modern.

I agree that Containment Priest would certainly force these decks to change how they are built. But wouldn't that be the point? I don't think it would kill the decks, but it would force them to interact on some level instead of beelining for their wincon to flood the board as fast as possible.
Furthermore...How different from 'midrange, all-in aggro, and control' is the meta different from now? I honestly can only see something like Priest being a good thing for forcing these hyper-fast decks to have to deal with it, while not really being terribly threatening on its own.

[Dice_Box]

Realistically, giving Modern the tools needed to build DnT feels like a win to me. I don't think even in its most optimal build it would be any good. The format is turned to eat creatures.

[Fox]

@niv it‘s about a critical mass of absolute hate, covering pretty much every angle, fitting easily within the 15 sideboard slots of UW control [more than any other deck].

The common thing you‘ll hear from modern players dicussing their format is that “my deck has a good [insert archetype] matchup...“ What they‘re really saying is that their SB is chock full of non-game producing hate like RiP, Stony Silence, etc... While a card like C-Priest sounds great b/c of how many matchups it can come in against, you end up dropping format attendance because people aren‘t going to show up to get blown out by even more you can‘t win SB cards.

While decks whose contruction is as mindlessly idiotic as 28 slots land/Vial/CoCo + 32 dudes (plus or minus some 1 mana kill spell copies) are annoying to play against and really shouldn‘t be competitive; the reason they are even allowed to exist [competitively] is that they can run off to their sideboards to grab that 2 mana card that says “I can‘t lose.“ If you want an interactive format you need to decrease sideboard cards like these, not adding more on.

[Pittplayer]

@niv it‘s about a critical mass of absolute hate, covering pretty much every angle, fitting easily within the 15 sideboard slots of UW control [more than any other deck].

The common thing you‘ll hear from modern players dicussing their format is that “my deck has a good [insert archetype] matchup...“ What they‘re really saying is that their SB is chock full of non-game producing hate like RiP, Stony Silence, etc... While a card like C-Priest sounds great b/c of how many matchups it can come in against, you end up dropping format attendance because people aren‘t going to show up to get blown out by even more you can‘t win SB cards.

While decks whose contruction is as mindlessly idiotic as 28 slots land/Vial/CoCo + 32 dudes (plus or minus some 1 mana kill spell copies) are annoying to play against and really shouldn‘t be competitive; the reason they are even allowed to exist [competitively] is that they can run off to their sideboards to grab that 2 mana card that says “I can‘t lose.“ If you want an interactive format you need to decrease sideboard cards like these, not adding more on.

Does Abrupt Decay not exist in Modern? How about Lightning Bolt? If Modern is broken by a 2/2 with an ability, I'm not sure if that speaks on the format or the playerbase....

I just got done playing a game in Legacy, I was on Phoenix and my opp was playing Miracles. They had Containment Priest, Swords to Plowshares, Terminus, Force of Will, etc. I won 2-0. You learn how to play vs control decks. You adapt. This is why I mostly don't play Modern. People would rather complain, threaten, and scream about bannings instead of...you know...becoming better Magic players.

[Fox]

@pittplayer there is no doubt that one can build decks in such a way as to play around cards it is targeted by; that does not however mean that C. Priest style cards aren‘t poorly-designed 1-card combos that say “I can‘t lose b/c I got to 2 mana.“

There is nothing interesting about hate cards that are always on, absolute, eternal (nothing like recurring upkeep mana costs)....particularly when they are, by themselves, a wincon. When cards like this abound the game is lowered to doing nothing (just sit back on Snapcaster + kill spells until you eventually draw a Jayemdae Tome equivalent, i.e. JTMS) or playing a non-commital good stuff pile (ETB value scum). Boosting these strategies with SB cards that take away the need to play sequence-dependent patterns/enacting a plan [where the gamestate is warped to their needs] doesn‘t increase interest in a format. While it‘s fine to like simplistic 2-for-1 decks, they have the disturbing tendancy to push out every other way of playing the game (this reduces the game to the level of Hearthstone).

Dies to removal, doesn‘t change the fact that C. Priest is a poorly-designed card. Just change the words around to say “if a creature would enter the battlefield face-up, exile it instead“ or “if a creature would enter the battlefield not from the graveyard, exile it instead“ - this should be sufficient to illustrate the sheer laziness of such card design. Such card design does not create interesting games, and it actively diminishes strategic diversity.

[Pittplayer]

Kind of proving my point there. The only thing Containment Priest does is force non interactive combo decks to interact. A 2 mana hate bear is kind of white does. And in a format like Modern that is mostly creature based, creature kill is plentiful and I'm not even sure Priest would see much play, seeing how in such a format non creature based combo hate is just better. I literally have no idea what you are going on about.

[Lord Seth]

In addition to killing Phoenix and Dredge, Containment Priest kills Eldritch Evolution, Chord of Calling, Collected Company, Aether Vial, Living End, Through the Breach, Goryo's Vengeance, and all decks that hoped to use Flickerwisp or Eldrazi Displacer on their own stuff. The format would devolve to midrange, all-in aggro, and control. I would literally quit Modern.
You're talking nonsense here. It's extremely difficult for a deck to get "killed off" by a sideboard card that's only playable in White decks and dies to practically every single piece of removal in the format. Especially when one considers the utter lack of Hallowed Moonlight seeing play in the format despite "killing" off every card you just listed. Yes, Hallowed Moonlight isn't as good as Containment Priest, but if Containment Priest was going to have as gigantic of an impact as you claim it would, one would expect that Hallowed Moonlight would see at least some play.

[Zombie]

Kind of proving my point there. The only thing Containment Priest does is force non interactive combo decks to interact. A 2 mana hate bear is kind of white does. And in a format like Modern that is mostly creature based, creature kill is plentiful and I'm not even sure Priest would see much play, seeing how in such a format non creature based combo hate is just better. I literally have no idea what you are going on about.

The point isn't so much about having to interact, so much as many hate cards being very binary - slap it down and the combo deck's SOL. Crypts vs. combo deck can be a back-and-forth, RiP vs. combo deck is a did you draw your SB card check. Similar deal as with getting locked out by D&T building a prison and tax agency piece by piece where you have the ability to dismantle it a bit or play around the restrictions and eventually have to concede because you can't really play Magic properly anymore vs. some chuckler slamming Chalice and your deck is blank. One is interesting, the other is not.

[Ace/Homebrew]

You're talking nonsense here. It's extremely difficult for a deck to get "killed off" by a sideboard card that's only playable in White decks and dies to practically every single piece of removal in the format. Especially when one considers the utter lack of Hallowed Moonlight seeing play in the format despite "killing" off every card you just listed. Yes, Hallowed Moonlight isn't as good as Containment Priest, but if Containment Priest was going to have as gigantic of an impact as you claim it would, one would expect that Hallowed Moonlight would see at least some play.
I was just curious and somewhat surprised:

http://www.tcdecks.net/results.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=&nhigh=&from=&to=&player=&aname=&dname=&format=Modern&main=&nomain=&side=Hallowed+moonlight&noside=&strict=on

http://www.tcdecks.net/results.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=&nhigh=&from=&to=&player=&aname=&dname=&format=Modern+Archive&main=&nomain=&side=Hallowed+moonlight&noside=&strict=on

It's definitely seen some play, but it certainly isn't high profile.

[Pittplayer]

The point isn't so much about having to interact, so much as many hate cards being very binary - slap it down and the combo deck's SOL. Crypts vs. combo deck can be a back-and-forth, RiP vs. combo deck is a did you draw your SB card check. Similar deal as with getting locked out by D&T building a prison and tax agency piece by piece where you have the ability to dismantle it a bit or play around the restrictions and eventually have to concede because you can't really play Magic properly anymore vs. some chuckler slamming Chalice and your deck is blank. One is interesting, the other is not.

So basically you are complaining about fair decks being able to interact with combo decks. Got it. Making combo decks maybe slow down a turn and have to board in things like abrupt decay is format breaking to you. Right.

[Fox]

Kind of proving my point there. The only thing Containment Priest does is force non interactive combo decks to interact. A 2 mana hate bear is kind of white does. And in a format like Modern that is mostly creature based, creature kill is plentiful and I'm not even sure Priest would see much play, seeing how in such a format non creature based combo hate is just better. I literally have no idea what you are going on about.

It's important to understand that C. Priest would effectively give UW control the biggest sideboard in the format (as in the most virtual slots thanks to the bonus anti-Vial/CoCo/etc aspect)...in a format where the gameplay is best summarized as game 1 ships in the night, into game 2-3 "I drew my 2 mana I can't lose card#Strategy#Skillgame."

So it doesn't really matter that a card can die to removal, it is designed to create a non-game. Cards like C. Priest are inherently uninteractive. Now if perfect hate cards had clauses like upkeep costs and other built-in obstacles to maintenance, or were otherwise imperfectly-templated (creating timings or loopholes/workarounds), then it would all be fine - but they don't, and the games they show up in are uninteractive, non-games.

So think of all the decks that want C. Priest, and see how many don't have horrendous matchups vs UW control that would be left standing. SB cards that say "I can't lose" do not increase format diversity.

Edit: you seem to think that combo decks are uninteractive, so let's address that. When a combo deck is picking a spot to 'go for it' to the time that they go off successfully and win, you have had a veritable wealth of opportunities to interact - you simply didn't submit a list that was built to interact on a necessary axis (and that's okay, it feels bad, but it's just fine). One must always take solace knowing that combo pilots aren't the degenerates reaching into their SB to try and scum wins off a 1-card combo.

[Purple Blood]

It's important to understand that C. Priest would effectively give UW control the biggest sideboard in the format (as in the most virtual slots thanks to the bonus anti-Vial/CoCo/etc aspect)...in a format where the gameplay is best summarized as game 1 ships in the night, into game 2-3 "I drew my 2 mana I can't lose card#Strategy#Skillgame."

So it doesn't really matter that a card can die to removal, it is designed to create a non-game. Cards like C. Priest are inherently uninteractive. Now if perfect hate cards had clauses like upkeep costs and other built-in obstacles to maintenance, or were otherwise imperfectly-templated (creating timings or loopholes/workarounds), then it would all be fine - but they don't, and the games they show up in are uninteractive, non-games.

So think of all the decks that want C. Priest, and see how many don't have horrendous matchups vs UW control that would be left standing. SB cards that say "I can't lose" do not increase format diversity.

Edit: you seem to think that combo decks are uninteractive, so let's address that. When a combo deck is picking a spot to 'go for it' to the time that they go off successfully and win, you have had a veritable wealth of opportunities to interact - you simply didn't submit a list that was built to interact on a necessary axis (and that's okay, it feels bad, but it's just fine). One must always take solace knowing that combo pilots aren't the degenerates reaching into their SB to try and scum wins off a 1-card combo.

What is an example of hate card would you believe is more appropriate?

Also, when you say "I can't lose" what you're really saying is "must be answered" so how is that different than any other threat? They don't create "non-games" they just force you to plan to have answers, just like everything else.

One of the downsides of playing a single-minded deck is that it folds to hate cards. I understand the complaints you have but I honestly think that comes down to the fundamental mechanics of Magic itself rather than problematic hate cards. If everyone played fair decks the meta would be pretty boring if you ask me. But on the other hand when people are trying to play broken combos, there needs to be answers for those otherwise why play anything else?

[Fox]

What is an example of hate card would you believe is more appropriate?

Also, when you say "I can't lose" what you're really saying is "must be answered" so how is that different than any other threat? They don't create "non-games" they just force you to plan to have answers, just like everything else.

One of the downsides of playing a single-minded deck is that it folds to hate cards. I understand the complaints you have but I honestly think that comes down to the fundamental mechanics of Magic itself rather than problematic hate cards. If everyone played fair decks the meta would be pretty boring if you ask me. But on the other hand when people are trying to play broken combos, there needs to be answers for those otherwise why play anything else?

I think combinations of effects are generally healthiest (things like mana denial into Tabernacle with the idea of making card type creature unplayable), but in terms of single card design concepts:
-cards that oscillate between on and off, like DRS
-cards that require sustain (Peacekeeper, Mystic Remora, Contamination, Solitary Confinement)
-cards that expire (Drop of Honey, the fading mechanic)
-cards that create choices (effects like 'if you want to do X, pay some cost')
-cards that can be manipulated on an atypical axis (continuous artifacts)
-cards that happen one time and aren't wincons (Tormnod's Crypt, Ravenous Trap)
-cards that require alternative lines from opponents (like Meddling Mage, True Believer, Humility)
-cards with symmetrical effects which require specific deckbuilding (Chains of Mephistopheles, Chalice of the Void, Smokestack, Blood Moon)
-cards that let you bounce their strategy back at them (Phantasmal Illusion, Reanimate)
-cards that pair perfect hate with narrow targets (Dread of Night, Energy Flux, CoP: Red)
-maindeck cards that feed into strange proactive plan and possibly disruptive at the same time (like how Blood Sun can combo with City of Traitors). Playing with and against build concepts like these are the most interesting and skill testing games of magic. (within the context of a Reanimator mirror, Reanimate could fit in this category as well)

There's no combo deck that doesn't open itself up to interaction at multiple points (particularly when you ban things that kinda just win the game by themselves like Necropotence), but if your whole gameplan is to play ETB-value duders, you've given up on trying to play a real game of magic with any kind of strategy. Your gonna jam dudes/2-for-1s, and you're only ever going to jam whatever else you happen to topdeck. These decks are hammers and they can only beat nails; if that's your whole plan [grinding out incremental value without trying to genuinely interact] I think you earned that loss to combo and the pilots should own it.

Last I checked there's no Leyline of creatures can't enter the battlefield; not sure why the fair decks get the monopoly on 1-card "I can't lose" combos. Coming back to C. Priest and modern, it's important to remember that eventually one of these anti-combo cards will hate out the fair decks it's supposed to help because of Snap/Path + wrath UW deck - C. Priest is such a card, the ramifications are knowable in a format that is increasingly building around Faithless Looting and home to Vial/CoCo and Noble Hierarch decks.

[Pittplayer]

I think combinations of effects are generally healthiest (things like mana denial into Tabernacle with the idea of making card type creature unplayable), but in terms of single card design concepts:
-cards that oscillate between on and off, like DRS
-cards that require sustain (Peacekeeper, Mystic Remora, Contamination, Solitary Confinement)
-cards that expire (Drop of Honey, the fading mechanic)
-cards that create choices (effects like 'if you want to do X, pay some cost')
-cards that can be manipulated on an atypical axis (continuous artifacts)
-cards that happen one time and aren't wincons (Tormnod's Crypt, Ravenous Trap)
-cards that require alternative lines from opponents (like Meddling Mage, True Believer, Humility)
-cards with symmetrical effects which require specific deckbuilding (Chains of Mephistopheles, Chalice of the Void, Smokestack, Blood Moon)
-cards that let you bounce their strategy back at them (Phantasmal Illusion, Reanimate)
-cards that pair perfect hate with narrow targets (Dread of Night, Energy Flux, CoP: Red)
-maindeck cards that feed into strange proactive plan and possibly disruptive at the same time (like how Blood Sun can combo with City of Traitors). Playing with and against build concepts like these are the most interesting and skill testing games of magic. (within the context of a Reanimator mirror, Reanimate could fit in this category as well)

There's no combo deck that doesn't open itself up to interaction at multiple points (particularly when you ban things that kinda just win the game by themselves like Necropotence), but if your whole gameplan is to play ETB-value duders, you've given up on trying to play a real game of magic with any kind of strategy. Your gonna jam dudes/2-for-1s, and you're only ever going to jam whatever else you happen to topdeck. These decks are hammers and they can only beat nails; if that's your whole plan [grinding out incremental value without trying to genuinely interact] I think you earned that loss to combo and the pilots should own it.

Last I checked there's no Leyline of creatures can't enter the battlefield; not sure why the fair decks get the monopoly on 1-card "I can't lose" combos. Coming back to C. Priest and modern, it's important to remember that eventually one of these anti-combo cards will hate out the fair decks it's supposed to help because of Snap/Path + wrath UW deck - C. Priest is such a card, the ramifications are knowable in a format that is increasingly building around Faithless Looting and home to Vial/CoCo and Noble Hierarch decks.

This whole conversation just became laughable. Humility, Blood Moon, Deathrite Shaman, Chalice of the Void are more fair/better designed then Containment Priest? Whatever you say bud. I'm done.

[H]

Well, I don't know anything about Modern, really, so I'll just throw this general statement out there.

No one is going to agree on how to "fix" Modern if they can't agree on what the problem is, let alone, answer if there even is a problem.

[Dice_Box]

Well, I don't know anything about Modern, really, so I'll just throw this general statement out there.

No one is going to agree on how to "fix" Modern if they can't agree on what the problem is, let alone, answer if there even is a problem.
"The biggest issue is that I am right and everyone should agree with me. But some are too stupid to see things the my, sorry, the right way, and thus I have to waste my time online arguing about how I am right."

[H]

"The biggest issue is that I am right and everyone should agree with me. But some are too stupid to see things the my, sorry, the right way, and thus I have to waste my time online arguing about how I am right."

Here is a fairly comprehensive visual guide to discussing things on the internet:

https://i.imgur.com/ONdXPg7.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/lta8clx.png

[Fox]

This whole conversation just became laughable. Humility, Blood Moon, Deathrite Shaman, Chalice of the Void are more fair/better designed then Containment Priest? Whatever you say bud. I'm done.

It‘s quite simple bud, these aren‘t one card combos that say “I can‘t lose.“ Hate cards range between silly and obnoxious/dumb. No matter how ‘derpy‘ a hate card is it should not be perfect, eternal/no sustain, broad and absolute [and a wincon all at the same time].

A modern Vial/CoCo deck is unabashedly braindead and linear/uninteractive in that it is a 1-trick pony with the exact same play patterns. Cards like RiP/Stony/C. Priest/etc are made to allow them to never deviate from their style of dude jammin, because the moment their strategy predictably fails to interact, they reach a sideboard card rather than realizing the maindeck should probably be changed if X strategy is a concern.

You can subjectively dislike things like TurboMoon and Sol Land into Chalice x=1, but these cards have objective limitations. Limits create atypical opportunities to play through hate, without necessarily having to go straight to a kill spell.

[CptHaddock]

Wtf how is this thread 7 pages long? They've only spoiled 2 cards.

[Pittplayer]

it‘s quite simple bud, these aren‘t one card combos that say “i can‘t lose.“ hate cards range between silly and obnoxious/dumb. No matter how ‘derpy‘ a hate card is it should not be perfect, eternal/no sustain, broad and absolute [and a wincon all at the same time].

A modern vial/coco deck is unabashedly braindead and linear/uninteractive in that it is a 1-trick pony with the exact same play patterns. Cards like rip/stony/c. Priest/etc are made to allow them to never deviate from their style of dude jammin, because the moment their strategy predictably fails to interact, they reach a sideboard card rather than realizing the maindeck should probably be changed if x strategy is a concern.

You can subjectively dislike things like turbomoon and sol land into chalice x=1, but these cards have objective limitations. Limits create atypical opportunities to play through hate, without necessarily having to go straight to a kill spell.

hahahahahahahaha Yes. Containment Priest is a perfect absolute win card. What was I thinking?

[Glass House]

-cards that require alternative lines from opponents (like Meddling Mage, True Believer, Humility)
To be honest, how is Containment Priest any different? You are forced to either answer the troublesome permanent that is impeding your deck of working, or try to get around it with "alternative lines" (aka change your deck's entire gameplan). Which one sounds simpler to accomplish?



-cards with symmetrical effects which require specific deckbuilding (Chains of Mephistopheles, Chalice of the Void, Smokestack, Blood Moon)
Again, Containment Priest is no different. Its effect is symmetrical. You are unable to run Vial alongside it or any other cards that cheat creatures into play.

Priest is a very strong hate card but you talk about it as if its text read
Flash
Hexproof
If a nontoken creature would enter the battlefield under an opponent's control and it wasn't cast, exile it instead.

[Captain Hammer]

Both Cabal Therapist and Dread Shade should have had a zombie subtype.

It sucks that Dread Shade is the only one of the dominiara 3 mana cycle that doesnt see play in any format.


In addition to killing Phoenix and Dredge, Containment Priest kills Eldritch Evolution, Chord of Calling, Collected Company, Aether Vial, Living End, Through the Breach, Goryo's Vengeance, and all decks that hoped to use Flickerwisp or Eldrazi Displacer on their own stuff. The format would devolve to midrange, all-in aggro, and control. I would literally quit Modern.

Those decks would simply need to incorporate some way to kill a 2/2 creature. Not that big a deal.

The best thing about containment priest is that by printing it, Wizards may be able to remove several cards from the current modern ban list.

[Fox]

To be honest, how is Containment Priest any different? You are forced to either answer the troublesome permanent that is impeding your deck of working, or try to get around it with "alternative lines" (aka change your deck's entire gameplan). Which one sounds simpler to accomplish?


Again, Containment Priest is no different. Its effect is symmetrical. You are unable to run Vial alongside it or any other cards that cheat creatures into play.

Priest is a very strong hate card but you talk about it as if its text read
Flash
Hexproof
If a nontoken creature would enter the battlefield under an opponent's control and it wasn't cast, exile it instead.

It really comes back to their is no Leyline of creatures can't enter the battlefield being a more accurate representation of the kind of card C. Priest is. This is the level of random 1-card absolute, eternal hate that doesn't require anything out a deck that didn't care about having creatures (or even a deck that uses creatures, but isn't the deck relying solely on creatures) - these cards [regardless of dying to removal] say this card by itself has declared this to be a non-game that I can't lose regardless [mostly] of whatever my own maindeck strategy is (until addressed directly). The reaction to a Leyline like that should be "that kinda seems like a bullcrap card....cause it just is...as a function of being solely designed to make a non-game." This same scenario of "we're clearly not playing actual games of magic here" could also be illustrated by letting one person have opening hands with Dark Rit/Necropotence - dies to removal/just cast Pithing Needle isn't going to fix that whole 'this is non-gamey' aspect.

Meddling Mage stops a specific named endpoint of a plan (or a single piece leading up to it). True Believer is only going to affect one type of endpoint [requiring targeting the opponent]. Humility does not change the fact that they still get 1/1 wincons. When it comes to Humility it has another critically important aspect: influencing how its users maindeck is going to look - you will see atypical things like manlands and preferences away from Snapcaster (~Mission Briefing). What you won't see in decks that run to the SB C. Priests of the world is a maindeck that is forced to look different to cope with the effects of the hate they're packing, nor do they have to change the maindeck to address a bad matchup (you just side in some fire-and-forget free rolls that win the game by themselves).

In the case of modern, C. Priest might get directly killed...but until it is directly killed an unacceptably wide swath of the modern format can't do anything resembling a real game of magic except try and draw a kill spell. You can sit back and say they should change tens of cards and totally not do anything like what their deck was supposed to do - but we really have to remember that there is no single, broadly-applicable [i.e. not narrow] "you're done playing magic" card that you can bounce back at a C. Priest user.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

In the case of modern, C. Priest might get directly killed...but until it is directly killed an unacceptably wide swath of the modern format can't do anything resembling a real game of magic except try and draw a kill spell.

What?
What modern decks even care about a 2/2 that stops you cheating stuff into play? Humans and a few fringe reanimators?

[Dice_Box]

What?
What modern decks even care about a 2/2 that stops you cheating stuff into play? Humans and a few fringe reanimators?
Most of the format right now actually. The amount of decks that are playing out of the grave is high. The chance for stopping the Faithless decks would be lovely.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Most of the format right now actually. The amount of decks that are playing out of the grave is high. The chance for stopping the Faithless decks would be lovely.
Pheonix, dredge, kinda humans and....
EDIT: This isn't even that good against graveyard decks because it doesn't stop spells like Cage, it doesn't empty the graveyard like RIP and leyline.

[Lord Seth]

I was just curious and somewhat surprised:

http://www.tcdecks.net/results.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=&nhigh=&from=&to=&player=&aname=&dname=&format=Modern&main=&nomain=&side=Hallowed+moonlight&noside=&strict=on

http://www.tcdecks.net/results.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=&nhigh=&from=&to=&player=&aname=&dname=&format=Modern+Archive&main=&nomain=&side=Hallowed+moonlight&noside=&strict=on

It's definitely seen some play, but it certainly isn't high profile.The most recent deck on that list is from almost a year ago, and it didn't see particularly frequent play even before that. My point is that if Containment Priest was as gobsmackingly good as was claimed it would be, one would have expect to see Hallowed Moonlight as more than an ultra-fringe sideboard card.

[kombatkiwi]

It really comes back to their is no Leyline of artifacts don't do anything being a more accurate representation of the kind of card Stony Silence is. This is the level of random 1-card absolute, eternal hate that doesn't require anything out a deck that didn't care about having Artifacts (or even a deck that uses artifacts, but isn't the deck relying solely on activated abilities of artifacts) - these cards [regardless of dying to removal] say this card by itself has declared this to be a non-game that I can't lose regardless [mostly] of whatever my own maindeck strategy is (until addressed directly). The reaction to a Leyline like that should be "that kinda seems like a bullcrap card....cause it just is...as a function of being solely designed to make a non-game." This same scenario of "we're clearly not playing actual games of magic here" could also be illustrated by letting one person have opening hands with an absolutely bullshit analogy

Containment Priests stops a specific named endpoint of a plan (or a single piece leading up to it). Containment Priest is only going to affect one type of endpoint [cheating creatures into play]. Containment Priest does not change the fact that they still get to hardcast their creatures. When it comes to Containment Priest it has another critically important aspect: influencing how its users maindeck is going to look - you will see atypical things like manlands and preferences away from Collected Company. What you won't see in decks that run to the SB Stony Silences of the world is a maindeck that is forced to look different to cope with the effects of the hate they're packing, nor do they have to change the maindeck to address a bad matchup (you just side in some fire-and-forget free rolls that win the game by themselves).

In the case of modern, Stony Silence might get directly killed...but until it is directly killed an unacceptably wide swath (Red Affinity / Scales / Whir / Tron) of the modern format can't do anything resembling a real game of magic except try and draw a kill spell. You can sit back and say they should change tens of cards and totally not do anything like what their deck was supposed to do - but we really have to remember that there is no single, broadly-applicable [i.e. not narrow] "you're done playing magic" card that you can bounce back at a Stony Silence user.

Nice pasta
Did you really just try to compare containment priest to necropotence
rofl

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Where are the spoilers? New set new spoilers! SPOIL THIS ALREADY WIZARDS!

[H]

Where are the spoilers? New set new spoilers! SPOIL THIS ALREADY WIZARDS!

Either the 19th or the 20th, Wizards has said both dates, so we'll see. I think WAR had Sunday spoilers, so it may well be the 19th in this case as well.

[Matsu]

Someone posted a apparently leaked list about few cards to be reprinted.
I looked too broken to me to be true.
I will have a look if i can find it again.

Edit: image added
https://i.imgur.com/DwIlPaw.png

https://i.imgur.com/NRxcSWS.png

This might be some serious bullshit. I found it on MtgSalvation from a reliable source ;)
Too broken to be true.

Edit 2: Apparently Oubliette will be reprinted and there will be a completely new PW.

[H]

You could probably make a sale on some of that stuff, but Gush and Grindstone in Modern? Not buying that. Maybe some of that stuff is in and those are Promos.

Also, not sure I buy Daze as being in there...

[HdH_Cthulhu]

You could probably make a sale on some of that stuff, but Gush and Grindstone in Modern? Not buying that. Maybe some of that stuff is in and those are Promos.

Also, not sure I buy Daze as being in there...

Yeah gush is odd. Its also not even a hype promo card for moder players.

[H]

Yeah gush is odd. Its also not even a hype promo card for moder players.

It's actually really bizarre to me. I mean, I think someone could make a case for it, since the sort of lands one wants to run in Modern have such an obvious set of drawbacks for being picked up, I don't think it would actually be "broken" it's just a stupid card. I think Pauper kind of shows that it is powerful even if you aren't out to "abuse" it, but I guess then we are asking, are they looking to sort of homogenize Pauper and Modern?

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Stasis and Tinder Wall really make me disbelieve.

[Ronald Deuce]

No Grim Tutor or Imperial Seal? Seems legit.

*massages temples*

[Megadeus]

Grindstone pls. Although besides the combo I can't think off the top of my head off there's any other really great synergies with everything being a specific color

[H]

Grindstone pls. Although besides the combo I can't think off the top of my head off there's any other really great synergies with everything being a specific color

I really don't buy Grindstone entering Modern. It's a fairly "easy" turn 3 win, which is susceptible to common hate, but I hardly imagine that is really much of an argument for it. I think the "biggest" strike on it, in my opinion, is that if one is not abusing it via Painter, the card is almost useless in competitive Magic.

Even taking this list at it's own word, likely Grindstone is a new Judge or MTGO promo.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Grindstone pls. Although besides the combo I can't think off the top of my head off there's any other really great synergies with everything being a specific color

Eight and a half tails and Taysa Orzhov Scion. Already combo with Swirl the Mists.

[Barook]

Fireblast also sounds risky in a format full of shocklands. That might push Burn over the top.

Besides, most cards on that list are garbage.

[PirateKing]

No Didgeridoo spoiler, Modern remains a worthless format

[Megadeus]

No Didgeridoo spoiler, Modern remains a worthless format

Damn you Reserve List!

[Dice_Box]

That list is fake. I mean we all know it, but there is a obvious tell. The Urza lands are already legal in Modern, removing them as a contender for the set.

[Erdvermampfa]

I'm pretty sure that Dust Bowl will be in this set (you heard it first here).

[mistercakes]

the list says it may come from commander products as well, so it's very possible the list is legit.

[Megadeus]

The list may be legit, but it doesn't really tell us a whole lot. Any of these cards could be in a non horizons product. Also none of them are really changing the format besides maybe fireblast and I don't think that's realistic to expect fireblast

[apple713]

Fake... gush shouldnt be allowed in modern and they’d never reprint stasis. They (wizards) has mentioned on numerous occasions over the years they they have moved away from land destruction / stasis like strategies.

[Backseat_Critic]

There are too many cards on this list I doubt they’d print.

I’m stoked for counterspell. I think FOF will be in it too, but won’t be played.

Astral slide is another strong possibility.

[Lord Seth]

Fake... gush shouldnt be allowed in modern and they’d never reprint stasis. They (wizards) has mentioned on numerous occasions over the years they they have moved away from land destruction / stasis like strategies.In Standard they have. In supplemental products they've bent things a bit more. Though honestly, I don't think Stasis would even be good in Modern; the card seems way too slow. Wasn't the main reason Stasis was any good to begin with the fact it happened to be good against Necropotence, which was the deck to beat at the time?

That said, I'd still be pretty surprised if they brought back the card, as it's not something people would particularly like. Even the people who'd want to play a lockout strategy like that can already play something like Whir Prison.

[Mr. Safety]

I think Fact or Fiction would be incredible for Modern, honestly. Right now the jeskai control decks are playing Hieroglyphic Illumination for Christ's sake. In a format with Gifts Ungiven legal I think FoF is just fine power-level-wise. Gush in a world where Izzet Phoenix is arguably the best deck? Fuck no. People have been speculating on Force of Will, Counterspell, Wasteland. Just like Gush, these cards just don't belong in Modern.

I do think they could print a similar card to Force of Will, like Force of Mana Leak: remove a blue card as alternative cost, spell is countered unless X is paid where X is the removed card's cmc. Sometimes people forget that we are not just getting cards into the format pre-8th Edition, we are also getting totally new cards.

[Bithlord]

Force of Mana Leak: remove a blue card as alternative cost, spell is countered unless X is paid where X is the removed card's cmc.

I'm on board. It's not going to be a value engine card (not that force ever was), but combo decks tend to be tight when they go off, since they try and go off as soon as possible, so that would slow be great from both a legacy (budget alternatives) and a modern perspective.

That said we all know it would be dumped in the mythic slot, because playable or good uncommons aren't a thing anymore.



Astral slide is another strong possibility.

Astral slide would be totally safe. Any other "engine" cards that could be safely added to Modern? Even if they don't immediately break open a viable decktype, engine cards / sets of cards are always good.

[morgan_coke]

I'm on board. It's not going to be a value engine card (not that force ever was), but combo decks tend to be tight when they go off, since they try and go off as soon as possible, so that would slow be great from both a legacy (budget alternatives) and a modern perspective.

That said we all know it would be dumped in the mythic slot, because playable or good uncommons aren't a thing anymore.



Astral slide would be totally safe. Any other "engine" cards that could be safely added to Modern? Even if they don't immediately break open a viable decktype, engine cards / sets of cards are always good.

Oversold Cemetery or some variant of it is about as safe as humanly possible. I'd love to see Contested Cliffs, or even better, a variant that works with Dinosaurs.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Gimme carrion feeder or goblin bombardment is what I say!

[Barook]

Promos got leaked:

https://i.redd.it/uedu52idzty21.jpg

Flusterstorm gets a reprint with new art.

The other card is an upgraded Astral Slide:

Astral Drift 2W
Enchantment
Whenever you cycle Astral Drift or cycle another card while Astral Drift is on the battlefield, you may exile target creature. Return that creature to the battlefield under its owner's control at the beginning of the next end step.
Cycling 2W

[kirkusjones]

HOLY SHIT! Morgan Coke, message me so we can start brewing a trash pile for modern!

[Michael Keller]

Flusterstorm is cool. Not earth-shattering, but cool.

[Captain Hammer]

All signs point to wotc wanting to merge eternal formats. This will be a net negative for legacy, as modern will creep into and appropriate its identity every modern horizons set they release. 200 reprints per set will only take 3 years before every non-reserved list card with tournament viability becomes modern legal. This means, we keep mostly LED, City of Traitors, Cradle, Metalworker and the original duals. We have seen the unsustainable reprint practices from the masterpieces and modern masters sets. Thismwill take it a step further and will be milked out hard

Wotc will consolidate the fragmented player base and support modern that can be reprinted to demand and thus makes a lot more commercial sense. Given the choice, they will support a format that is not constrained by reserved list for the sole reason of wanting full control over their game.

Legacy players will be thrown a bone to keep them content and unaware of the bigger picture, until it's too late and the identity of legacy has largely vanished.

If you're buying Modern Horizons, you are supporting the slow demise of legacy.

If what you are saying comes to pass that would be a great thing.

Just about all of our legacy decks would be playable in the format you are describing. Basically, the ban list in this new format would be reserved list, and everything else would be unbanned.

I would gladly give up LED, City of Traitors, Cradle, Metalworker for a 10x fold increase in legacy’s playerbase. Those handful of cards could be relegated to Vintage and commander. Losing them would barely effect many legacy decks. Many MUD lists are cutting Metalworker already. Many ramp decks are cutting City of Traitors and a card like Sandstone Needle or Crystal Vein could take its place. Elves could survive the loss of Cradle and Legacy would probably be better off without LED. As long as they bring every popular nonreserve list card like Dark Ritual and Hymn/Sinkhole/Pox over to Modern, I would happily make the swap.

And being reserved list cards, the cards not brought into modern will still maintain value. Reserve list cards is why Legacy is destined to suffer the same fate as vintage. Its a format without a long term future.

What you are describing is actually the one true way to save legacy. It would be a modern format that would have almost all of our pet legacy decks as viable options with a few minor changes (shocklands instead of duals).

All the decks we know and love would in fact become modern legal. Its a pain having to maintain a bunch of legacy decks that not that many people locally play and modern decks that are not as fun but needed since thats what almost everyone plays these days.

[bruizar]

If what you are saying comes to pass that would be a great thing.

Just about all of our legacy decks would be playable in the format you are describing. Basically, the ban list in this new format would be reserved list, and everything else would be unbanned.

I would gladly give up LED, City of Traitors, Cradle, Metalworker for a 10x fold increase in legacy’s playerbase. Those handful of cards could be relegated to Vintage and commander. Losing them would barely effect many legacy decks. And being reserved list cards, they will always maintain value. Reserve list cards is why Legacy is destined to suffer the same fate as vintage. Its a format without a long term future.

What you are describing is actually the one true way to save legacy. It would be a modern format that would have almost all of our pet legacy decks as viable options with a few minor changes (shocklands instead of duals).

All the decks we know and love would in fact become modern legal. Its a pain having to maintain a bunch of legacy decks that not that many people locally play and modern decks that are not as fun but needed since thats what almost everyone plays these days.

Although I agree with you, I am also a little bit biased since I'm a dedicated player to artifact and ancient tomb/city of traitor type decks. Metalworker, Grim Monolith, Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors are dear to me because I come from vintage where I used to be a workshop and dredge player. The reason I started playing legacy was because there were no more vintage tournaments.. On the whole, the aforementioned scenario would probably be for the greater good, but it will be people like me that will get caught by collateral damage.

[mistercakes]

They should just introduce another format and not deprecate legacy. People would still play it locally especially if it were more of a proxy supported format.

[morgan_coke]

Astral Drift... OMG!!!!

That is the single best thing they could have done for Slide (Drift now I guess) other than reverting the M10 rules and re-instating damage on the stack.

Like, that is insane.

Just to explain WHY that's such an amazingly good card, Astral Slide was weirdly kind of both the best and worst card in the deck. It didn't cycle, it generally took at least 4 mana to do anything, and it was usually bad in multiples. This does SO. MUCH. WORK.

First of all, you can happily run 4 of these, which is huge, because running 4x Slide was always kind of a downer, so you'd run 3, but then sometimes it wouldn't show up.
Second, the effect is built into the cycle, so you can use it before you hit 4+ mana, and it's a double drift if you cycle this with one in play already.
Third, this means you can burn these early to fog attacks, then cast them from your 'yard with Abandoned Sarcophagus

Honestly, the interactions this sets up with Sarcophagus might be the best part of this card. Just really phenomenal all around. Super Duper excited to see if they update Rift as well.

In Legacy, this really lowers the threshold for number of cycling slots required. Could easily push the deck from Tier 3 to Tier 2. (the main issue being, of course, that you still just aren't doing anything nearly as broken as the rest of the format and you're using the loam draw engine, which, sadly, is just inferior AND hit by all kinds of splash damage at this point. I.E., you're trying to play a fair deck in an unfair format)

[chunderbucket]

1. Ban all cards from the Reserved List
2. Print near functional equivalents for every single card from the list that sees competitive play. Like, the same exact text, but with nonsense attached such as "{T}: Roll the planar die." or "You may cast this spell without paying its mana cost if you're the Archenemy."
3. Overprint these cards to death and include them in non-booster supplemental products
3. Give speculators and hoarders the middle finger

[kinda]

1. Ban all cards from the Reserved List
2. Print near functional equivalents for every single card from the list that sees competitive play. Like, the same exact text, but with nonsense attached such as "{T}: Roll the planar die." or "You may cast this spell without paying its mana cost if you're the Archenemy."
3. Overprint these cards to death and include them in non-booster supplemental products
3. Give speculators and hoarders the middle finger

That would be an uncharacteristically aggressive move for a toy company I think.

[apple713]

1. Ban all cards from the Reserved List
2. Print near functional equivalents for every single card from the list that sees competitive play. Like, the same exact text, but with nonsense attached such as "{T}: Roll the planar die." or "You may cast this spell without paying its mana cost if you're the Archenemy."
3. Overprint these cards to death and include them in non-booster supplemental products
3. Give speculators and hoarders the middle finger

There legal ramifications to fucking with the reserve list. They wont do it unless the $ the cost of legal fees and penalties is less than projected future income from a world without reserve list / fucked with reserved list.

[itslarryyo]

If what you are saying comes to pass that would be a great thing.

Just about all of our legacy decks would be playable in the format you are describing. Basically, the ban list in this new format would be reserved list, and everything else would be unbanned.

I would gladly give up LED, City of Traitors, Cradle, Metalworker for a 10x fold increase in legacy’s playerbase. Those handful of cards could be relegated to Vintage and commander. Losing them would barely effect many legacy decks. Many MUD lists are cutting Metalworker already. Many ramp decks are cutting City of Traitors and a card like Sandstone Needle or Crystal Vein could take its place. Elves could survive the loss of Cradle and Legacy would probably be better off without LED. As long as they bring every popular nonreserve list card like Dark Ritual and Hymn/Sinkhole/Pox over to Modern, I would happily make the swap.

And being reserved list cards, the cards not brought into modern will still maintain value. Reserve list cards is why Legacy is destined to suffer the same fate as vintage. Its a format without a long term future.

What you are describing is actually the one true way to save legacy. It would be a modern format that would have almost all of our pet legacy decks as viable options with a few minor changes (shocklands instead of duals).

All the decks we know and love would in fact become modern legal. Its a pain having to maintain a bunch of legacy decks that not that many people locally play and modern decks that are not as fun but needed since thats what almost everyone plays these days.

Why would they unban everything? Wouldnt they probably keep it closer to moderns ban list, since its the format they like?

[Backseat_Critic]

MH will make modern more like poor man’s legacy. I expect a bunch of format policing answers that are too strong for standard. The threats and synergies in modern are already on this level.

Legacy will be the place to play RL cards and that is unlikely to change. It’s a great, but hard to access format. The prestige aspect is a feature to wizards.

Meanwhile arena modern will be a reset of modern, making it more of what wizards wants going forward. The power level of current standard is high, but still allows for plenty of archetypes. The balance between threats and answers is good.

This will also clear the way to making all MCs, and other high vis tournaments, played and streamed on arena. The spectator experience will be way better. The chess clock was just implemented and cheating will be impossible. My prediction, the fall MC will be half standard, half arena modern and will be played totally on arena.

[Ronald Deuce]

It costs an inordinate amount of money to pay lawyers to write stuff to present to a judge on the off chance the judge doesn't chuck any number of fuck-stupid lawsuits out of court on sight for being—well. . .

That's why the Reserved List still exists.

[Backseat_Critic]

It costs an inordinate amount of money to pay lawyers to write stuff to present to a judge on the off chance the judge doesn't chuck any number of fuck-stupid lawsuits out of court on sight for being—well. . .

That's why the Reserved List still exists.

I would go as far to say that wizards sees prohibitively expensive cards as a feature. It adds a layer of intrigue to the game it would not have if everything was affordable. These cards don’t really interfere with how the game is run. In fact, most would not come close to being acceptable by current design standards. They don’t even reprint non RL cards into oblivion. That should tell you quite a bit about their stance.

[CabalTherapy]

So many of those anti-RL comments are emotionally motivated. "I cannot afford duals > let's ban them so I don't have to worry." I can understand peoples' frustration to some point but it mustn't lead to egocentric and radical conclusions.
Obviously, WotC pushes Modern to cement itself as the default (and to some extent one and only) eternal format, which it has been for a number of years now. Honestly, Legacy is not going anywhere, even if they make Modern a "Legacy light" format.

[chunderbucket]

Dude I don't have any problems playing Legacy myself, I think your argument would be way more credible if it didn't give off a weird vibe about how you don't like poor people.

As for the legal ramifications, the speculators did whine a lot when Reverberate was printed but it turned out alright in the end. But sure, let's add a prior clause:

0. Sell WotC to a Chinese company that doesn't care about the stupid US "intellectual property" system

[mistercakes]

https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/ spoilers starting

nothing great, but happy to see changelings back. maybe hope for rebels!

[kinda]

https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/ spoilers starting

nothing great, but happy to see changelings back. maybe hope for rebels!

:eek: buy your didgeridoos now!

[Barook]

http://mythicspoiler.com/mh1/cards/martyrssoul.jpg

Seems mildly interesting with Aether Vial and Preeminent Captain in Soldier Stompy.

[Fox]

Looks like more expensive, conditional Goyf.

[TheAmazingKitchen]

A mostly worse Fow was just spoiled on stream :

Force of Negation 1UU
Instant
If it's not your turn, you may exile a blue card from your hand instead of paying this spell's mana cost.
Counter target non-creature spell. If that spell is countered that way, exile it instead of putting it into its owner's graveyard.

[Megadeus]

Is the exile clause ever relevant in legacy? Turns off looting from dredge I guess

[morgan_coke]

A mostly worse Fow was just spoiled on stream :

Force of Negation 1UU
Instant
If it's not your turn, you may exile a blue card from your hand instead of paying this spell's mana cost.
Counter target non-creature spell. If that spell is countered that way, exile it instead of putting it into its owner's graveyard.

It can stop fast combo, but can't be used to protect fast combo. I like it. Reasonable hard cast cost, no life payment, exile the spell.

Lotta good stuff there. I like it.

And they are DEFINITELY setting up Modern as "Fixed Legacy where we don't have to deal with the Reserved List or our most recent Legacy-only mistakes like Leovold and TNN".

EDIT: @Megadeus - I think it's aimed mostly at Turn 3 Tron nonsense and Faithless Looting T1.

EDIT2: Full art Snow Lands in the set. Grab your Scrying Sheets now before they're gone.

[Fox]

FoW-knockoff decent enough vs P-Fire and Loam. Not really playable in a format with TNN though.

[joven]

Well, with Force of Negation and Flusterstorm I don't see any reason for Force of Will, Counterspell or Daze in the set.

[sheriffharry]

Isn't Force of Negation very bad news for all COMBO decks?, especially post-Sideboard?? Or are Flusterstorm/Spell Pierce still the better answers.

I'm not sure...

[Watersaw]

Is the exile clause ever relevant in legacy? Turns off looting from dredge I guess

Beats up on Snapcaster Mage somewhat. And it seems decent alongside it as just another counterspell.

[Fox]

Beats up on Snapcaster Mage somewhat. And it seems decent alongside it as just another counterspell.

The issue there is you just counter the SCM (which this card can't do) and they don't get a bonus 2/1. So it kinda turns into a self-inflicted 1 for 3.

[ESG]

Not a fan of more Force of Will effects being legal in Legacy, even if Force of Negation is a "fixed" Force. My guess is this is a one-of or a two-of in Miracles. The noncreature clause is fine there, since the rest of the deck nullifies creatures. Decks that combo on the opponent's turn can use this, so Solidarity has another tool. Manaless Dredge now can play 8 FOW effects. Any other decks immediately come to mind? Grixis Control is a pile of card advantage, so I could see one or two there. I also see this as being a flexible sideboard card, especially on the draw, for matchups against combo or impactful Turn 1 permanents. In matchups where it's correct to mulligan to Force of Will, this is now a lot easier to do.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

There legal ramifications to fucking with the reserve list. They wont do it unless the $ the cost of legal fees and penalties is less than projected future income from a world without reserve list / fucked with reserved list.

There are not and this myth needs to die.

[mistercakes]

The new force will help blue against chalice effects quite a bit. If you're determined to stop it now, it should be pretty reasonable.

[Megadeus]

The issue there is you just counter the SCM (which this card can't do) and they don't get a bonus 2/1. So it kinda turns into a self-inflicted 1 for 3.

I think he means that it counters the spell the first time and exiles it so the snap doesn't get a chance to flash back whatever was countered.

Also it's just annoying that blue gets yet another really solid free spell and everything else just gets dicked. I get that this set isn't designed with legacy in mind, but fucking Christ it's at the point that it's fucking miserable now.

[Matsu]

Is this not somehow violating the RL?

https://i.imgur.com/kcn3Q9f.png

https://i.imgur.com/pqKl9Tv.png

So after that can we have?

Dual
Island - Swamp
Vanishing 10
tap: U or B

[Poron]

the reserved list has always been a fragile concept. You print the very same text on another name and you’re there. a totally a fragile law

[Matsu]

the reserved list has always been a fragile concept. You print the very same text on another name and you’re there. a totally a fragile law

After seeing that, I am really debating selling all my RL cards.
Also after the New Fow being around if they do not ban a couple of blue cards.
Every deck will be like this:
4 BS
4 Ponder
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Tnn
4 FoN
4 Delver
2 Zombie fish/Mandrill/Phoenix/etc
20 lands
10 disruption effects in whatever color you want

[mistercakes]

sounds good for cavern of souls decks :)

[Matsu]

sounds good for cavern of souls decks :)

In a format where 40% of the decks play Wasteland and you have access to Crop Rotation. I think CoS will not be sufficient.

[Poron]

Aether Vial and so on. The real point with creatures is that format is so dominant against creatures that the only way to win via them is through flood or some special ability.

TNN Flickerwisp into Recruiter of the Guard

[Megadeus]

Fuck it I'll just play 8 red blasts then main.

[Barook]

Is this not somehow violating the RL?
Because they're functionally completely different? :rolleyes:


Also it's just annoying that blue gets yet another really solid free spell and everything else just gets dicked. I get that this set isn't designed with legacy in mind, but fucking Christ it's at the point that it's fucking miserable now.
It could have fit into white as well, with noncreature and exiling.

[Matsu]

Fuck it I'll just play 8 red blasts then main.

Welcome to the new Meta :cool:



Because they're functionally completely different? :rolleyes:

I wait for the rest of the RL functionally different, where is my Library of Alexandria and Tabernacle :tongue:

[Barook]

I wait for the rest of the RL functionally different, where is my Library of Alexandria and Tabernacle :tongue:
Tabernacle that sacrifices instead of destroying would be a legit print that doesn't violate the RL. But then we have the dreaded "spirit of the RL" where they can make shit up on the fly to not (re)print cards.

[Matsu]

Tabernacle that sacrifices instead of destroying would be a legit print that doesn't violate the RL. But then we have the dreaded "spirit of the RL" where they can make shit up on the fly to not (re)print cards.

I think they forgot about the spirit of the RL doing a reprint of Deranged Hermit. The only difference is Hermit is 10$ not 1000$. I believe the time will come with a print on demand set, where you will have those functional reprints added one by one. I will not be surprise they will make in this set some sort of snow duals to test the water.

[Barook]

I will not be surprise they will make in this set some sort of snow duals to test the water.
Snow duals are rumored, but take that as you will. I wouldn't get hyped about it or rate new cards based on it.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D7ATdd1W4AAp5v1.png

A rainbow fetch that can grab any basic land. Basically Evolving Wilds, except you pay 1 life instead of it coming into play tapped.

Edit: Interestingly enough, this can also fetch Wastes.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D7AQkTyWkAAR93J.png:large

Not too sure what to think about this one. Probably not as good as Baleful Strix, but it depends alot on how good other snow permanents are. Flash is a nice bonus to kill some attacking X/1s.

[dsck]

Snow duals are rumored, but take that as you will. I wouldn't get hyped about it or rate new cards based on it.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D7ATdd1W4AAp5v1.png

A rainbow fetch that can grab any basic land. Basically Evolving Wilds, except you pay 1 life instead of it coming into play tapped.

Edit: Interestingly enough, this can also fetch Wastes.


Jesus christ, thats going into bazillion decks. What on earth is its price tag going to be? Literally everyone needs that.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Is this not somehow violating the RL?

https://i.imgur.com/kcn3Q9f.png

https://i.imgur.com/pqKl9Tv.png

So after that can we have?

Dual
Island - Swamp
Vanishing 10
tap: U or B
We already had the morph Hermit when time spiral came out, and echo is very different than vanishing.

[Barook]

Jesus christ, thats going into bazillion decks. What on earth is its price tag going to be? Literally everyone needs that.
Like what? It can't fetch duals and you need a sufficient number of basics to make it work.

[Poron]

well Miracle surely wants 4 of them and a basic Mountain

[Tylert]

well Miracle surely wants 4 of them and a basic Mountain

Basically, it will go into bicolor decks that want to fetch basics for blood moon effects.
RW Sun and moon in modern might be interrested and maybe some Eldrazi decks that play two color (Colorless + 1 color) and play one waste only.

My guess is that it is a good card.

[Bithlord]

My guess is that it is a good card.

It's a solid role player for some decks. Not end of the world amazing, and not for every deck. I'll toss it in my EDH decks along with the other two copies of terramorphic expanse.

[Mr. Safety]

I'm calling legendary duals that are unique, not snow duals. I think it makes more sense overall considering EDH and Modern. You can only play one in EDH anyways and Modern would still need Shocks/fetches/other dual lands for stability.

[Bithlord]

I'm calling legendary duals that are unique, not snow duals. I think it makes more sense overall considering EDH and Modern. You can only play one in EDH anyways and Modern would still need Shocks/fetches/other dual lands for stability.

What do you mean by "unique"?

[Mr. Safety]

What do you mean by "unique"?

Something that differentiates them from original duals, something like this:

Fancy New Bayou
Legendary land - forest/swamp
a deck can only have 1 copy of Fancy New Bayou

or

Fancy New Bayou
Legendary land - forest/swamp
Fancy new bayou cannot be the first land you play in the game

Those are both just dumb examples, but they are enough to differentiate from original duals to skirt the RL. Look at the new Deranged Hermit variant; it changes echo for vanishing, which is a lot closer than I ever thought they would get to a RL quasi-reprint. I think with more valuable cards like dual lands they will play it more conservatively (just an opinion mind you, and a wild-ass guess at that.)

[Matsu]

Something that differentiates them from original duals, something like this:

Fancy New Bayou
Legendary land - forest/swamp
a deck can only have 1 copy of Fancy New Bayou

or

Fancy New Bayou
Legendary land - forest/swamp
Fancy new bayou cannot be the first land you play in the game

Those are both just dumb examples, but they are enough to differentiate from original duals to skirt the RL. Look at the new Deranged Hermit variant; it changes echo for vanishing, which is a lot closer than I ever thought they would get to a RL quasi-reprint. I think with more valuable cards like dual lands they will play it more conservatively (just an opinion mind you, and a wild-ass guess at that.)


Make it simple:

Frozen Bayou
Restricted Land - Forest Swamp
tap: G or B

[Mr. Safety]

Make it simple:

Frozen Bayou
Restricted Land - Forest Swamp
tap: G or B

Restricted would have to become a new super-type, and I don't think they would go that far. Maybe.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Restricted would have to become a new super-type, and I don't think they would go that far. Maybe.

I think it would be more likly. Even if Relentless Rats says the opposite.

[Bithlord]

Restricted would have to become a new super-type, and I don't think they would go that far. Maybe.

They might, but not in a set like this -- They've said there aren't any new mechanics in this set. I'm not inherently opposed to "restricted" as a supertype and functioning as some sort of limiter on deck construction. But, I don't see them doing it.

Would be cool to have "Restricted: A deck may contain a maximum of four restricted cards." and then a cycle of restricted duals. The problem is, in legacy (or any format with sufficient Fetch utilization) that may as well be a dual reprint, so they wouldn't do it.

[PirateKing]

I think it would be more likly. Even if Relentless Rats says the opposite.

It's a whole lot easier to enforce Relentless Rats than the opposite though.

[rufus]

... What on earth is its price tag going to be? Literally everyone needs that.

Chase lands sell packs.

This might be a good option in some kind of context that cares about basics (people have already mentioned Wastes), but in an ecosystem where dual lands are available, the existing fetch lands are almost always going to be better. So I think this will be a niche card in legacy.

[Bithlord]

It's a whole lot easier to enforce Relentless Rats than the opposite though.

How is a restricted supertype any harder to enforce than any other deck construction rule? You look at the deck, and if it violates the rule it's an invalid deck.

[H]

How is a restricted supertype any harder to enforce than any other deck construction rule? You look at the deck, and if it violates the rule it's an invalid deck.

It isn't much different that the entire basis of most Vintage decks, for example. And while I've actually witnessed mistakes happen there of, say, someone "accidentally" (yes, it could have been actual cheating) running two Tinkers. In fact, it seems to me that nearly anyone in Vintage could "cheat" on Restricted cards in theory, but almost no one actually does in practice.

Not that I will rate the idea of such Duals as probable. I think the mana situation in Modern is regarded as "good enough."

[Matsu]

Chase lands sell packs.

This might be a good option in some kind of context that cares about basics (people have already mentioned Wastes), but in an ecosystem where dual lands are available, the existing fetch lands are almost always going to be better. So I think this will be a niche card in legacy.


This will be an EDH staple, it goes in every deck. Mono colored deck will have a 5th fetch land + Evolving Wild + T- Expanse.
I think this is the only force that will put this card price over the top.
I do not expect it will be playable in any other format. Why would you if you can put any Ons/Zen fetch.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

It's a whole lot easier to enforce Relentless Rats than the opposite though.

Yeah, but we already have a restricted list, so it's not like we can't do it.

[PirateKing]

How is a restricted supertype any harder to enforce than any other deck construction rule? You look at the deck, and if it violates the rule it's an invalid deck.

It's not any harder to enforce, but it would just be one more enforcement. Using Relentless Rats as an example of them messing with deck construction in the past is just a false equivalency.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

It's a whole lot easier to enforce Relentless Rats than the opposite though.

Enforcing Relentless rats is super easy though because it's literally saying "this isn't a rule"

[PirateKing]

Enforcing Relentless rats is super easy though because it's literally saying "this isn't a rule"

That is what I am saying, yes.

I am suspect that they would want to introduce a pseudo-restricted list into a format as widely played as Modern to just increase the numbers of "oopsies 2-ofs" at every FNM ever.
And saying, 'well they've done it once before with Relentless Rats!' isn't an argument, for the above reason.

[Matsu]

New commander for 5 color decks. I like it:

https://i.imgur.com/kgkOpSJ.jpg

[BenBleiweiss]

https://www.coolstuffinc.com/s3_image.php?img=http://s3.gatheringmagic.com/uploads/2019/05/20/JD_1.jpg

[Watersaw]

https://www.coolstuffinc.com/s3_image.php?img=http://s3.gatheringmagic.com/uploads/2019/05/20/JD_1.jpg

I kinda like it. Kills a Chalice and a Lattice

EDIT: nvm I can't read. Can't pitch while Mycosynth Lattice is in play

[Mr. Safety]

Not that I will rate the idea of such Duals as probable. I think the mana situation in Modern is regarded as "good enough."

I agree on modern's mana being 'good enough', but I also think wotc will eventually print a functional dual land similar to the originals. Considering how much hype this set has already I now think it might not show up here (hold it for another future set) but I think it will be soon. My called shot was based on how close Deep Forest Hermit was to Deranged Hermit, which could be a guinea pig for future attempts at making functional cards available without violating the RL.

I think we can agree that my example was pretty dumb, it was just spit-balling.

[Bithlord]

which could be a guinea pig for future attempts at making functional cards available without violating the RL.

To be fair they've tried close, but not the same effects before (Fork / Reverberate). They've also tried using the loophole that was expressly included in the reserve list language (premium reprints). Both times they quickly slammed the door shut afterwords. With fork / reverberate they said they would enforce the "spirit" closer. With the premium they didn't even explain themselves other than slamming the door shut and changing the reserve list to kill the outlet for reprinting that they had expressly included.

Call me a conspiracy theorist if you want, but there is *something* going on behind the scenes on the reserve list stuff.

[Mr. Safety]

To be fair they've tried close, but not the same effects before (Fork / Reverberate). They've also tried using the loophole that was expressly included in the reserve list language (premium reprints). Both times they quickly slammed the door shut afterwords. With fork / reverberate they said they would enforce the "spirit" closer. With the premium they didn't even explain themselves other than slamming the door shut and changing the reserve list to kill the outlet for reprinting that they had expressly included.

Call me a conspiracy theorist if you want, but there is *something* going on behind the scenes on the reserve list stuff.

I normally don't make much of conspiracy theories, but this recent spoiling of Deep Forest Hermit gives the idea credence.

[H]

I normally don't make much of conspiracy theories, but this recent spoiling of Deep Forest Hermit gives the idea credence.

I think the "realization" is that the Legacy/Vintage/EDH segment is actually on that is profitable to market toward.

But I think Hasbro has either been advised, or just assumes, that it is "not worth" opening the can of worms that is completely abandoning the List. So, I think they might spend some time skirting it how and where they think they "can."

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I kinda like it. Kills a Chalice and a Lattice

Lattice makes cards not-green, so you can't use the alternative cost.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

To be fair they've tried close, but not the same effects before (Fork / Reverberate). They've also tried using the loophole that was expressly included in the reserve list language (premium reprints). Both times they quickly slammed the door shut afterwords. With fork / reverberate they said they would enforce the "spirit" closer. With the premium they didn't even explain themselves other than slamming the door shut and changing the reserve list to kill the outlet for reprinting that they had expressly included.

Call me a conspiracy theorist if you want, but there is *something* going on behind the scenes on the reserve list stuff.

The conspiracy theory is they own these valuable objects and the reserve list helps their own value.

[Dice_Box]

https://www.coolstuffinc.com/s3_image.php?img=http://s3.gatheringmagic.com/uploads/2019/05/20/JD_1.jpg
Kills Counterballance, B2B and Chalice. Also fucking destroys the Lands mirror (Mox and Exploration). Me like.

[rufus]

I kinda like it. Kills a Chalice and a Lattice

It's a free 2-for-2. That's a super strong card.

[H]

Kills Counterballance, B2B and Chalice. Also fucking destroys the Lands mirror (Mox and Exploration). Me like.

I like this card a bunch. A reason to run Green.

I wonder what directions they will go for White, Black and Red. The White one better not be some gain life or prevent damage garbage.

[Barook]

Kills Counterballance, B2B and Chalice. Also fucking destroys the Lands mirror (Mox and Exploration). Me like.
Since it can blow up two things, it can be card-neutral for zero mana. That's a huge tempo swing. An excellent SB card for decks which can run it.

I wouldn't be surprised if it's partly intended as a way to fight the Karn/Lattice lock, given the proximity both cards were released in.

[Watersaw]

Lattice makes cards not-green, so you can't use the alternative cost.

Ah crap. You right.


It's a free 2-for-2. That's a super strong card.
I didn't want to jump the gun on this but I'm getting more excited about this card by the second. Ignore what I said before, this thing is absolutely insane.

[Megadeus]

Since it can blow up two things, it can be card-neutral for zero mana. That's a huge tempo swing. An excellent SB card for decks which can run it.

I wouldn't be surprised if it's partly intended as a way to fight the Karn/Lattice lock, given the proximity both cards were released in.
As was said before, because lattice makes everything Colorless you don't actually have green cards to pitch for this

[Barook]

As was said before, because lattice makes everything Colorless you don't actually have green cards to pitch for this
Completely forgot about that one, you're right.


I like this card a bunch. A reason to run Green.

I wonder what directions they will go for White, Black and Red. The White one better not be some gain life or prevent damage garbage.
Let's assume the rest of the cycle is used for police cards, some ideas:

White:
- Nobody can cast noncreature spells this turn. (super strong, so unlikely)
- Some kind of Containment Priest effect that prevents creatures (and maybe other permanent types) from entering the battlefield if they aren't cast from hand.

Black:
- an Unmask variant (probably needs some retooling because WotC doesn't like instant discard)
- yet another GY hoser
- a creature kill spell

Red:
- It will involve damage because WotC can't design red cards worth shit. My money is on a emergency sweeper, aka a Cave-In variant.

[BenBleiweiss]

Completely forgot about that one, you're right.


Let's assume the rest of the cycle is used for police cards, some ideas:

White:
- Nobody can cast noncreature spells this turn. (super strong, so unlikely)
- Some kind of Containment Priest effect that prevents creatures (and maybe other permanent types) from entering the battlefield if they aren't cast from hand.

Black:
- an Unmask variant (probably needs some retooling because WotC doesn't like instant discard)
- yet another GY hoser
- a creature kill spell

Red:
- It will involve damage because WotC can't design red cards worth shit. My money is on a emergency sweeper, aka a Cave-In variant.

If we're going by the post on page 7, it'll be Contagion for Black.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Completely forgot about that one, you're right.
Black:
- an Unmask variant (probably needs some retooling because WotC doesn't like instant discard)
- yet another GY hoser
- a creature kill spell

I'd like a planeswalker kill spell, maybe force of murder?


Red:
- It will involve damage because WotC can't design red cards worth shit. My money is on a emergency sweeper, aka a Cave-In variant.
Pyrokenisis, but can hit planeswalkers.

[rufus]

...
Red:
- It will involve damage because WotC can't design red cards worth shit. My money is on a emergency sweeper, aka a Cave-In variant.

That or a pyrokenesis that hits planeswalkers. I'll be happily surprised if it's a Misdirection instead.

[Dice_Box]

That or a pyrokenesis that hits planeswalkers. I'll be happily surprised if it's a Misdirection instead.
I hope it is. I want to see that. I have long thought that's what Reds pitch card should have been in Aliances.

[Barook]

I wouldn't get my hopes up about a red Misdirection.

WotC can't get away from their red = direct damage design mantra. Pyrokinesis variant that can also hit planeswalkers would also fit the bill, though, both as a callback to a popular card and as a direct damage card.

White isn't particularly strong in terms of pitch cards. Another thing that might be possible is a variant of Teferi's Protection to stop one-shot bullshit, but that seems rather unlikely.

Edit: Fact or Fiction got reprinted. Nifty reprint right there.

[PirateKing]

In white I'd like to see some sort of Angel's Grace effect. Or just an instant speed Timely Reinforcements would be epic, pitchable would just be extra.

[Barook]

http://mythicspoiler.com/mh1/cards/morophontheboundless.jpg

It's no Anuba Grunt, but it works with Didgeridoo.

[Matsu]

I find this Pia and Kiran very strong.
3 mana for 4 power in 3 creature and a Faithless looting effect + late game effect.
This card is pretty strong.

https://i.imgur.com/KcMw1kT.png

[Mr. Safety]

In white I'd like to see some sort of Angel's Grace effect. Or just an instant speed Timely Reinforcements would be epic, pitchable would just be extra.

I think it will be a pitch-able Swords to Plowshares.

EDIT: We got Fact or Fiction into modern. That's a big win in my book, what a great card to add to the pool.

[Fox]

Scars of the Veteran as +1/+1 counters or riot.

[Megadeus]

I'm calling the red spell to be a fork

[Mr. Safety]

I'm calling Volcanic Fallout, possibly without the uncounterable clause.