[Deck] Astral Drift vs. Legacy take 1

[morgan_coke]

If you read this before I post an "updated first post post" don't worry, I'm just working out some thoughts on paper as it were.

Three takes - one good, one "in progress", and one bad - all based off the splash color (Bant, Naya, or Abzan)

Simple Prison Version

Lands - 25
4x Prismatic Vista
4x Ash Barrens
4x Tranquil Thicket
4x Secluded Steppe
4x Plains
4x Forest
1x Island

Walkers/Enchantments - 8
4x Teferi, Time Raveler
4x Astral Drift

Creatures - 6
4x Eternal Witness
2x Knight of Autumn

Spells - 21
4x Orim's Chant
4x Unexpectedly Absent
4x Edge of Autumn
3x Life from the Loam
2x Cast Out
3x Gilded Light
1x Approach of the Second Sun

Sideboard
Back to Basics (maybe main?)
Wing Shards/Wrath of God?
Rebuild?
Wasteland?
Tormod's Crypt
Containment Priest
Gilded Drake (hilarious with Drift and with Absent)
Gideon of the Trials
Obstinate Baloth (possibly Siege Rhino, but the "discard into play" effect is pretty relevant)
more Cast Out/Knights?
Abeyance/Leylines?

That's 25 cyclers, tons of mana, a hard lock made of independent pieces that are all really good on their own, and a decent game 1 vs. combo. Can't really ask for more than that, right? The manabase is also super rock solid, and can even fetch up additional basics while under a Moon effect. Approach also gives you a hard win condition if some kind of shenanigans are taking place after the lock is in place where your small duders can't get there eventually.

Absent is just generally amazing because it can stop your opponent from being able to draw out of a situation, and it can be used say, during your opponents end step on your own Witness if you really need to draw one. Same for Teferi if you need to reset his loyalty or something.

Teferi solves a lot of problems for this deck, and can even bounce your own guys to re-use their ETB abilities.



Chalice Version

I dunno, this should be Naya colors - RGW, it should run Wrenn and Six, Ancient Tomb, Lightning Rift, Mox Diamond and probably Nahiri/Emrakul. I've drawn up a couple lists, but none of them really work, so, that's an issue. It's basically just working to get the numbers of everything right, and that's pretty much only done by lots of playtesting. Also possible you'd want some number of Sweltering Suns in here too. Definitely some manlands, Raging Ravine and Nantuko Monastery come to mind.



Rock Version

Yeah, the main problem with this is that control-ish rock is dead in the format. So making a build off of that is.. not a great idea. Probably the direction I'm going to take the deck in Modern, but I honestly don't think it works in Legacy, like, at all.


Take all of this with a grain of salt, I haven't been playing Legacy lately, so I'm not even really that sure what the meta looks like right now, beyond a bunch of Xerox and some number of Chalice lists + nic fit.

[aedemiel]

I really liked your last draft with 3 Eternal Witness and 3 Knight of Autumn. Do you think this one was just too slow?
Also, no love for Sarcophagus?

I'm not too fond of Nahiri (although she can main-phase destroy a permanent every cycle, that's something). Would you consider Decree of Justice?
TkS a is great idea.

[sco0ter]

4x new Lightning Rift (might not actually exist)


If it exists, and even if not, we should name this deck "Drifter" in honor of the old RW Rifter deck from Legacy's early days.

[maharis]

No containment priest combo? It’s pseudo-removal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rufus]

These are bad ideas, but ...

Astral slide always seems slow to me. I'm wondering if there's some kind of Rule of Law prison approach to complement it.

Also, I'm stuck on the potential of "free-cyclers" - Street Wraith, Edge of Autumn and maybe Vizier of Tumbling Sands combined with something that taps for 2 or more mana. That's probably more of a combo thing than a grindy thing though.

[morgan_coke]

Ok, updated the first post to reflect what we actually got in Horizons - which sadly includes no upgrade for Rift. As I note in the first post, I think the best plan right now is to run a full chantlock prison build with 3feri. Bonus points in that it can easily include B2B due to the manabase construction. Turns out Edge of Autumn/Prismatic Vista/Ash Barrens lets you run a three color basics mana-base pretty easily if your splash is just the U in 3feri's mana cost.

[aedemiel]

I WILL test that.
I'm not sure about Approach of the Second Sunthough. Just seems slow and lackluster.

[Grumpollion]

I've been enjoying a version that includes Sterling Groves to fetch and protect enchantments like Astral Drift and Cast Out. In this version, Sterling Groves also fetch and protect a Solemnity + Phyrexian Unlife (no more poison counters) pillowfort (just one copy each since Groves can fetch). Since I'm running Solemnity, I throw in a copy of Glacial Chasm (no more age counters) for further protection. As long as I can't take damage (due to Chasm), I might as well be the monarch in perpetuity (extra draw is nice), so I add a couple Palace Jailers that I can slide in and out to exile all my opponent's creatures. I add some Crop Rotations to fetch my Chasm and a Dark Depths while I'm at it (Depths is fun with Solemnity in play). To round the whole thing out, I add some Renegade Ralliers that I can slide in and out to return to the battlefield the lands that I've cycled and the Groves that I've sacced. I might even replace one or two Eternal Witnesses with some Tilling Treefolk that I can slide in and out to get multiple cycling lands (and/or Chasm or Depths) back into my hand from my graveyard.

And, because I'm an asshole, I add one copy each of Enchanted Evening (fun with Sterling Grove) and Calming Verse (say goodbye to opponent's board).

[morgan_coke]

I WILL test that.
I'm not sure about Approach of the Second Sunthough. Just seems slow and lackluster.

Yeah, I'm not remotely sure about Second Sun either to be honest. It's just there as a way to guarantee you win after you set up the lock. But I'm guessing most folks will just scoop once they can't cast spells or attack for the rest of the game.

[aedemiel]

@morgan_coke I think we can indeed find something better, especially with cycle. I mean, Krosan Tusker isn't an awful body.

@Grumpollion As much as I love the Solemnity + Phyrexian Unlife lock, it just takes too much place in a deck where we just want as much cycle/ETB creatures as possible. Sterling Grove and Tilling Treefolk could be playable however.
That being said, Enchanted Evening and Calming Verse are just not Legacy playable.

[sco0ter]

4x Edge of Autumn


4 of these and ZERO Flagstones of Trokair??? Weird.

I think the mana base should aim to have 3 mana on turn 2.

I suggest something like this:

4 Mox Diamond
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Flagstones of Trokair
10-11 Cycle lands
3 Duals
3 Basics
5 Fetchlands
1 Wasteland

With Flagstones, I think Crop Rotation is worth considering as well (1st turn Flagstones or other land, 2nd turn Forest, tap other land, Crop rotate it, find Sol land => 3 mana).

[apple713]

I must be missing something because teferi seems like garbage. All of his abilities seem weak.

I also feel like there are way better creatures to be using.

Finally, Im pretty sure that you atill play 4x astral slide. Without drift or slide the deck is just a flaming hot pile of garbage. Since multiples will stack they arnt dead cards.

[aedemiel]

I must be missing something because teferi seems like garbage. All of his abilities seem weak.
The thing is, Tefeiri stops your opponent counterspells when you're going for the lock. That aside it's true that he seems a bit underwhelming.


I also feel like there are way better creatures to be using.
Better than Eternal Witness? I doubt that. But it's true that there are some cycle-creatures we could play for the kill. I already mentioned Krosan Tusker.


Finally, Im pretty sure that you atill play 4x astral slide. Without drift or slide the deck is just a flaming hot pile of garbage. Since multiples will stack they arnt dead cards.
Indeed, Slide being a key card we probably want some more. +2Astral Slide maybe?

[morgan_coke]

I must be missing something because teferi seems like garbage. All of his abilities seem weak.

I also feel like there are way better creatures to be using.

Finally, Im pretty sure that you atill play 4x astral slide. Without drift or slide the deck is just a flaming hot pile of garbage. Since multiples will stack they arnt dead cards.

No, you don't play Slide AND Drift. That's a terrible idea. Like, that idea is so bad I can't even really fathom doing it.

Teferi isn't there for his activated abilities, he's there for his STATIC ability. If you chant them during their upkeep while he's out, they literally cannot ever cast a spell. That's what makes it an actual lock.

The creatures don't really matter tbh. You get the lock, the game is over.

[apple713]

The thing is, Tefeiri stops your opponent counterspells when you're going for the lock. That aside it's true that he seems a bit underwhelming.


Better than Eternal Witness? I doubt that. But it's true that there are some cycle-creatures we could play for the kill. I already mentioned Krosan Tusker.


Indeed, Slide being a key card we probably want some more. +2Astral Slide maybe?

These are good responses. Eternal witnes is great but I imagine that there should be other creatures in addition. 2 knights seems really light. Ill think of some and post them.


Mangara of Corondor
Sanctum prelate



There are creatures listed in the op that are good. My thoughts are that the deck is built like aggro control prison. Combo requires redundancy so I would expect to see drift + slide and chant + abeyance if combo was the goal here.



No, you don't play Slide AND Drift. That's a terrible idea. Like, that idea is so bad I can't even really fathom doing it.

Teferi isn't there for his activated abilities, he's there for his STATIC ability. If you chant them during their upkeep while he's out, they literally cannot ever cast a spell. That's what makes it an actual lock.

The creatures don't really matter tbh. You get the lock, the game is over.

These are bad responses. From what I’m gathering, you want to play a combo deck that locks the opponent out of the game. The issue with that is that it requires tons of cards. So really you are playing a prison deck.

Lock requirements

Astral drift
Eternal witness
Orim’s chant
Cycling card
Way to recycle cycling cards like loam
Teferi

This seems like a losing strategy for any legacy deck. So I imagine you plan to play the majority of the game without the lock? If thats the case teferi is a win more card. He is also off color and its not a good idea to complicate your manabase more than it is.

Also, why do you care about the opponent casting spells? What are they casting that is going to wreck you? If they try to destroy you drift cycle witness and get drift back eot. Additionally, if you have more than 1 drift it kinda doesnt even matter.

If something happens and your drifts get surgicaled, you lose because you dont want to play slide. Your witnesses anrt gonna get there on beats alone. I know this is gonna flame you and you’ll igone everything I say but you have to hear this. It is clear that you are a novice player because you dont see the value in the kind of redundancy playing slide and drift bring to the table. This deck is practually inoperable without one or the other.

[aedemiel]

Obviously Eternal Witness and Knight of Autumn are the best creatures for the deck but here is a quick list of what could be our “maybeboard”:

Traditional-way:
— Eternal Dragon: Ramp+CA (because recursion, although it’s slow)+big steak
— Decree of Justice: CA(tokens)+potential Kill

Actually playable creatures:
— Renegade rallier: not sure if we have that many 2 or less CMC permanents to bring back, lands aside (somewhat of a combo with Edge of Autumn?)
— Containment Priest: Exile opponents creatures.
— Krosan Tusker:Ramp+big steak

Funny or expensive, but maybe playable:
— Palace Jailer: Exile opponents creatures+Draw engine
— Mangara of Corondor: Exile opponents creatures. Legendary, not as good as Containment Priest.
— Obstinate Baloth: Lifegain+big steak(also Liliana of the Veil destroyer)
— Gilded Drake: Creature stealer but somewhat off-color.
— Siege Rhino: Life-drain+big steak but off-color.

Enchantments:
— Lightning Rift: Board wipe+Kill but off-color.
— Drake Haven: CA(tokens) but somewhat off-color.

I’m probably missing some more, this is just a rough list.
I would like to mention that there is probably a turbofog build with Lull, Haze of Pollen and Angelsong.
Also, we will need to think about the mana-base at some point.

[Infinitium]

Having been out of the loop for more than a few years, is the Drift lock better than Isochron Scepter imprinting Chant with Teferi out? Trading Pithing Needle/artifact removal vulnerabilitie for enchantment, creature and graveyard ones doesn't seem great. Less moving parts as well.

Also, Wasteland looks like a natural fit to protect Teferi from manlands and locking some game down with LftL.

[FTW]

Where's Astral Slide?

[apple713]

Where's Astral Slide?

The op doesnt like consistency


Having been out of the loop for more than a few years, is the Drift lock better than Isochron Scepter imprinting Chant with Teferi out? Trading Pithing Needle/artifact removal vulnerabilitie for enchantment, creature and graveyard ones doesn't seem great. Less moving parts as well.

Also, Wasteland looks like a natural fit to protect Teferi from manlands and locking some game down with LftL.

Yes this is worse as strictly at combo deck than scepter chant. Slide/drift should be played as aggro control or else it is just an bad combo deck.
.

[aedemiel]

I hope I'm not talking to myself and this will be relevant to someone else's interest.

So, putting the mana-base aside (because this is another subject completely), I think we can indeed drop blue because paying a 3 mana PW only for his static ability is lackluster.
GW as enough tools to play with redundancy, beating counterspells in the long run. Also it doesn't weaken our mana-base.

Here is what I was thinking:

4 Astral Drift
1 Astral Slide
2 Sterling Grove
// Grove is better than E-tutor obviously. Protects our Astrals and Cast Outs and acts as Astrals number 6-7. I do think playing more than 1-2 Astral Slide is bad.

4 Eternal Witness
2 Knight of Autumn
// I'm on the fence here. Maybe a 3/3 split is better.

4 Orim's Chant
3 Unexpectedly Absent //Could be a Forsake the Wordly spot.
//A lock is still extremely plausible. Adding a single Isochron Scepter is possible if you want to go this road.

4 Edge of Autumn
3 Life From the Loam
1 Krosan Tusker// In this Ramp+Kill spot, Eternal Dragon might be just better, depending on our mana-base and if we want evasion.
//Ramp. Not much to see here.


2 Containment Priest//Exiling all opponents creatures seems good.
3 Cast Out
2 Gilded light
//Gilded light seems a bit narrow to me. Maybe another Forsake spot?



That's 35 cards leaving 25 spots for the mana-base. I have to say I really like the idea of 2GSZ+1 Dryad. I also like Tilling Treefolk instead of one Loam.

[FTW]

The "lock" seems bad. Has anyone playtested it? Too many moving pieces, too easy to disrupt, too many hoops to assemble, mediocre interactions otherwise.

Slide already wins the game


//Artifacts: 8
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void

//Enchantments: 6
4 Astral Drift
2 Astral Slide

//Spells: 6
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Life from the Loam

//Creatures: 15
3 Containment Priest
2 Wall of Blossoms
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Eternal Witness
2 Knight of Autumn
1 Tilling Treefolk
1 Palace Jailer
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth

//Lands: 25
4 Windswept Heath
4 Ash Barrens
4 Tranquil Thicket
4 Secluded Steppe
3 Forest
3 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas


Maybe there should be room for 3-4 Wasteland?

Other creatures to consider:

Kitchen Finks
Siege Rhino
Plaguecrafter
Orzhov Pontiff
Renegade Rallier
Shriekmaw
Eternal Dragon

[sco0ter]

List looks solid. But I doubt Drift makes the general concept viable all of the sudden.
I am experimenting with Liquimetal Coating and Knight of Autumn interaction in Modern. Is it too cute for Legacy?

Wrenn and Six looks fine too, nur Loam is probably better.

[aedemiel]

I like this take, but 12 cyclers is definitely not enough.

[sco0ter]

I like this take, but 12 cyclers is definitely not enough.

16. Astral Drift cycles, too. But I agree, should have more cheap cyclers, like Cast Out and Edge of Autumn.

[FTW]

Right, +2 Cast Out. Good utility. -1 Wall of Blossoms, -1 something else.

I don't like the idea of having too many cyclers that are otherwise bad cards (e.g. Gilded Light, Angelsong, Renewed Faith) because they're just terribad when Astral Slide isn't out. Cards that cost more than 1 to cycle are inefficient. You'll die to Burn or Delver first. That's probably why Slide hasn't been competitive in a long time. The old engine of running rampant growths, Eternal Dragon and janky expensive cyclers is bad tempo and not interactive enough.

Filler Street Wraiths might be good. They also protect Loam from Surgical.

Also between Eternal Witness, Tilling Treefolk and Life from the Loam, there are a lot of ways to recur the 12 cycling lands. With 2 Slide effects out, for 1 mana you can blink both Eternal Witness (returning the land) and anything else. This is an advantage of running more than 4 Slides. With Tilling Treefolk + 1 Slide + 2 cycling lands, you can also blink something else and the Treefolk while getting your lands back.

The deck probably wants Wasteland so there's a plan B of "kill all your land and beatdown with Titania".

[aedemiel]

Bag of Holding
Should we?

[optml]

Hi guys, long time slide player. I used to play it in standard, and have a pet deck I used with Astral Slide for legacy events (non important tournaments).

I think that there are a lot of myths / incorrect assumptions around this.
For example, the idea that for this to be an astral (slide/drift) deck, it needs 6+ versions of this card. I have sometimes found that even 4 copies of astral slide is too much. That said, I've since replaced the slides with drifts, obviously, and 4 is fine now.

I play a G/W build, heavily reliant on life from the loam and card advantage. I use a wish package to find finishers and situational cards, and try to slow them down with removal and enter-the-battlefield triggers.
Finding a combo lock is much more hassle than setting up a card advantage engine that builds on itself.
Play an astral drift. Cycle an edge of autumn sacrificing your flagstones to remove their creature and delay life loss for the turn. Next turn, you draw a wall of blossom? Excellent. So you have a recurring card draw engine plus blocker. You build up a pillow fort over time, then go for a wish board target to finish them off.

Here is my deck:

// Cycle Engine:

4 Astral Drift
4 Secluded Steppe
4 Tranquil Thicket
4 Edge of Autumn

// Win Cards
4 Living Wish

// Utility
2 Council's Judgment
1 Pithing Needle
3 Life from the Loam
2 Solitary Confinement
2 Mox Diamond
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Trinisphere

// Creatures
4 Wall of Blossom
3 Eternal Witness
1 Knight of Autumn

// Non-cycling Lands
3 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Windswept Heath
1 Savannah
5 Forest
3 Plains
2 Ancient Tomb

//Sideboard
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Jotun Grunt
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Tower of the Magistrate
1 Thragtusk
1 Containment Priest
1 Ashen Rider
1 Akroma, Angel of Fury
1 Peacekeeper


Really keen to hear ideas.

[morgan_coke]

@optml

Solitary Confinement will beat any deck without lifeloss or enchantment removal, but given the popularity of bounce/counters and Assassins' Trophy/Abrupt Decay, and various planeswalkers, that's basically limited to Burn decks game one. It's a neat card, but time has largely passed it by.

Karn, the Great Creator is a better option for wishing for stuff than Living Wish is.

Ice-Fang Coatl plus snow basics is a better "draw a card critter" than Wall of Blossoms. Actually, it's a better option even without the snow lands, because it can block flyers and surprise kill low-loyalty 'walkers.

[optml]

Thanks for your response, which is interesting, but I'm not sure I agree with any of your points. Of course, I don't mind if you decide to create a deck based on your recommended cards instead of my proposed ones, but I'll respond so you know what my thought process is.

First, Solitary Confinement.
I also play Enchantress in legacy, and every Enchantress deck I know runs at minimum 1 if not 2 solitary confinements. I find it a powerful, 'must kill' card, once you have a basic card draw mechanism. Yes, there are cards in legacy that can destroy it, but that isn't a reason not to play it. FoW exists in legacy, but people still play spells that can be countered. Having a card advantage engine means that over the course of a game if they continue to 1 for 1 one my cards, I will win the attrition game. Also, why would planeswalkers affect me, if I have solitary confinement out? Which planeswalkers are you worried about?

I'm not sure why you reference the Ice-fang? Its not even on colour to the GW. If you want to add in a third colour, that's fine, but at least mention that and talk about the rationale for adding. Just referencing other colour cards that you like seems weird to me. I like brainstorm, but probably won't try to fit it into a Green White deck.

And Karn? Seems perhaps like you missed my point, or the reason I play living wish in the first place? Living wish package is not the same as the Karn. They target completely different things, cost different amounts and look to achieve different goals. Karn searches for artifacts. Living wish is creatures and lands. If you want to leverage the core part of the deck, the Astral Drift cycling package, with a Karn wishboard, you are limited by artifact creatures. That's a pretty limited pool compared to any creature plus any land.